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<v Speaker 1>Oh hey, it's the lady sitting in the middle seat

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<v Speaker 1>who has to get up to pee, but you're in

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<v Speaker 1>the window seat and you're soil releeve. She does because

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<v Speaker 1>that means you don't have to ask again the aisle

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<v Speaker 1>to get up. Ali ward back with another episode of Ologies.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh video games, video games? What's their deal? How do

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<v Speaker 1>they affect our brains? Have we got an ology for y'all? Okay, first,

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<v Speaker 1>I do have some thanks. Thanks to everyone who's pledging

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<v Speaker 1>some of your latte money or tossing me a quarter

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<v Speaker 1>a week on Patreon for making it possible for me

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<v Speaker 1>to get my physical butt in the same space as theologists,

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<v Speaker 1>or in this case, to pay a recording studio to

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<v Speaker 1>do our first ever remote interview. Very exciting. Thanks to

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<v Speaker 1>everyone sporting ologies merch out in the wild, that's at

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<v Speaker 1>ologiesmerch dot com, t shirts, hatspins, all of that. Thank

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<v Speaker 1>you to everyone who rates and subscribes and reviews, and

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<v Speaker 1>you'll leave such nice notes. For example, Namon says, I

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<v Speaker 1>love this podcast so much. I found it when searching

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<v Speaker 1>for podcasts to help me sleep. Sadly, I found a

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<v Speaker 1>podcast to binge and stay up even later. Thank you,

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<v Speaker 1>Ally Word for the podcast that has everything from biology

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<v Speaker 1>to beauty. I never did solve my sleeping problem, but

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<v Speaker 1>I don't really mind anymore, So thank you for the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Well thanks for the review. Try the Fancy Nancy. Just

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<v Speaker 1>lay in bed. You think of a category and then

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<v Speaker 1>you think of something that starts with an A and

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<v Speaker 1>a B and a C. If you didn't listen to

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<v Speaker 1>the Sleep episode, that's in part two of the Sleep Episode,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's named after my very fancy mom, fancy Nancy,

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<v Speaker 1>who came up with it. Okay, anyway back to litology.

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<v Speaker 1>Who's excited and we all are, so Litology, let's get

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<v Speaker 1>right into it, pals. So it's a real word. It

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<v Speaker 1>means the study of games, and it comes from the

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<v Speaker 1>Latin lu dare, meaning to play yay. So it was

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<v Speaker 1>coined sometime around the nineteen fifties. So it didn't mean

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<v Speaker 1>video games back then because time machines had not yet

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<v Speaker 1>been invented. But nowadays it can encompass gameplay and sports

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<v Speaker 1>and cards of course Beatbop video games. So this ologist

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<v Speaker 1>has been being in my periphery for years. My sister

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<v Speaker 1>told me about her Ted talk and she was discussing

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<v Speaker 1>her game Super Better that can help folks who are

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<v Speaker 1>healing from an illness or going through anxiety or depression.

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<v Speaker 1>So I've been a fan of hers for years, and

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<v Speaker 1>I reached out to her. I like chewed my fingernails

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<v Speaker 1>waiting for a response. She said she was down to record,

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<v Speaker 1>but our schedules just couldn't get aligned. So finally I

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<v Speaker 1>took the plunge. She ducked into a recording studio in Berkeley.

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<v Speaker 1>We taped this remotely, you guys, and it wasn't awkward.

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<v Speaker 1>She's so so good. She has a PhD from University

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<v Speaker 1>of California at Berkeley in performance studies, and she's designed

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<v Speaker 1>games since two thousand and three. So she taught game

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<v Speaker 1>design and game theory at UC Berkeley in the San

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<v Speaker 1>Francisco Art Institute. She's been named as one of the

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<v Speaker 1>twenty most Inspiring Women in the World by this lady

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<v Speaker 1>named Oprah in a magazine called Oprah, and she's a speaker.

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<v Speaker 1>She's author of the book Reality Is Broken, Why Make

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<v Speaker 1>Us Better and How They Can Change the World, and

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<v Speaker 1>New York Times bestseller Super Better, a Revolutionary approach to

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<v Speaker 1>getting stronger, happier, braver, and more resilient. And she's the

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<v Speaker 1>director of Game Research and Development at the Institute for

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<v Speaker 1>the Future. She's legit, so I was so nervous before

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<v Speaker 1>taping this because she's just a high badass. She couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>have been more affable and great. And we chatted about

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<v Speaker 1>IRL games, board games, animosity, Fortnite, the line between play

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<v Speaker 1>and addiction, League of Legends, gambeling, lottery, tickets, off brand Atari,

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<v Speaker 1>what Tetris does to the brain, video games and violence.

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<v Speaker 1>Should kids play games? We talked about aliens, soup and

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<v Speaker 1>how games can change your life for the super better.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's press start on a truly life changing conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with loudologist doctor Jane McGonagall.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi Allie, Hi Jane, how are you. O'm great? I'm

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<v Speaker 2>so excited to talk to you in person. Let me

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<v Speaker 2>unsep my jacket so I don't it might make okay,

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm going to take that off. It'll be better,

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<v Speaker 2>all right.

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<v Speaker 1>So Hi, First off, doctor McGonagall, it's lovely to talk

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<v Speaker 1>to you.

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<v Speaker 2>You could also call me professor McGonagall. For all the

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<v Speaker 2>Harry Potter fans out there.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, does that happen a lot?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? When when that character started to exist, it made

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<v Speaker 2>my life so much more fun.

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<v Speaker 4>The starfting ceremony will begin momentarily.

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<v Speaker 3>Do people spell it right now?

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<v Speaker 2>No, not at all, but they pronounce it correctly, which

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<v Speaker 2>never happened growing up, So it has helped a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>And I do have questions starting right off growing up.

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<v Speaker 1>You have a twin sister. Did you guys grow up

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<v Speaker 1>playing a bunch of board games? How do twin sister

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<v Speaker 1>past the time?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, so first of all, we should talk about

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<v Speaker 2>board games definitely during this interview, because some new research

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<v Speaker 2>came out showing that normal board games are really bad

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<v Speaker 2>for your relationships, like they lower your oxytocin levels. So

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<v Speaker 2>we do have memories growing up playing board games that

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<v Speaker 2>we always fought at the end of them, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I never do you remember like games like Sorry, where

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<v Speaker 2>you would you know, mercilessly take out other people's pieces

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<v Speaker 2>and move them to the beginning of the game Monopoly,

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<v Speaker 2>where like one person gets power and then lords it

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<v Speaker 2>over everybody else for an increasingly unfun hour. Yeah, traditional

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<v Speaker 2>board games are poorly designed for social interactions and are

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<v Speaker 2>terrible for you. So yes, I do have memories growing

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<v Speaker 2>up playing with them. Unfortunately, my sister never recovered from

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<v Speaker 2>those early experiences and would never play like video games

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<v Speaker 2>or anything else with me after that. But yeah, and now,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean literally, just a couple of weeks ago, I

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<v Speaker 2>saw this study showing that traditional board games lower oxytocin levels,

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<v Speaker 2>like you trust each other less. And it makes perfect

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<v Speaker 2>sense because the games are As a game designer, I

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<v Speaker 2>can point out all the ways that they are poorly

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<v Speaker 2>designed to, you know, lead to negative social experiences rather

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<v Speaker 2>than positive ones, the old school ones, the new ones

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<v Speaker 2>are better.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, that validates so much because I remember

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<v Speaker 1>even when you would win at Monopoly, you feel bad

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<v Speaker 1>because you were hosing everyone in your family. Yeah, like

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<v Speaker 1>I'm an asshole, I'm like such a slum lord.

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<v Speaker 3>Right now, what do I do?

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<v Speaker 4>No?

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know. I think people maybe know this now,

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<v Speaker 2>But Monopoly was originally designed as a had a gogical

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<v Speaker 2>tool to teach people the evils of capitalism, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was supposed to make you feel bad. You were supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to play it and say, wow, this is awful and

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<v Speaker 2>terrible and let's be socialists, and so it was designed

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<v Speaker 2>to make you feel bad, and so in that extent

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<v Speaker 2>it works, But playing it for fun not a good idea.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my word, I just went down a hole on

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<v Speaker 1>this one. Quick aside. So Monopoly was actually the early

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen hundreds brainchild of an anti capitalist activist, and she

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<v Speaker 1>was a comedian and a writer. She was an unmarried woman,

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<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth Maggie, and she made it as a cautionary tale

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<v Speaker 1>and in her old timey words, let the children see

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<v Speaker 1>clearly the gross injustice of our present land system, and

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<v Speaker 1>when they grow up, the evil will be remedied. Such

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<v Speaker 1>high hopes, Lizzie. But perhaps the irony was just too

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<v Speaker 1>lost on us. And that's why a land baron who

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<v Speaker 1>shits in a golden toilet is presiding over the nation. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>So the game had a very sexy original title. It

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<v Speaker 1>was called The Landlord's Game, and Elizabeth Maggie worked her

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<v Speaker 1>ass off on it, and then some JABRONI played it

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<v Speaker 1>at a house party and she was ripped off. She

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<v Speaker 1>made five hundred bucks, he made millions because capitalism. So

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<v Speaker 1>when did you start liking gameplay? At what point did

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<v Speaker 1>you start playing video games or did you start to

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<v Speaker 1>realize it maybe designing was something you'd want to do,

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<v Speaker 1>you know.

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<v Speaker 2>I have some really positive early memories of my dad

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<v Speaker 2>bringing Home an Odyssey, which was kind of like the

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<v Speaker 2>knockoff cheap Atari because we were like a knockoff cheap

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<v Speaker 2>family growing up, and so it had like knockoff pac

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<v Speaker 2>Man called Casey Munchkin that was really a bad version,

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<v Speaker 2>like it wasn't well designed either, and it was impossible

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<v Speaker 2>to win. But yeah, he would bring home, he brought

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<v Speaker 2>home these cartridges and he would play with us and

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<v Speaker 2>teach us how to get better. And I say really

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<v Speaker 2>positive early memories of spending time with my dad kind

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<v Speaker 2>of learning these new games and getting better. And he

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<v Speaker 2>taught me chess, and our grandfather taught us poker and

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<v Speaker 2>roulette at a very early age, like we were like

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<v Speaker 2>five or six learning how to play poker. So there

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<v Speaker 2>was a lot of gameplay in my family. And then

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<v Speaker 2>we got a Commodore sixty four, which for computer geeks

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<v Speaker 2>that was like one of the first at home computers

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<v Speaker 2>you could learn basic programming. And so in like fifth grade,

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<v Speaker 2>I started making my own computer games, and the very

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<v Speaker 2>first one I ever made was called You Be the Judge,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it was inspired by watching a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of Divorce Court and People's Court on daytime TV. So

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<v Speaker 2>you got to be the judge. And also you were

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<v Speaker 2>a cat because I had to use like as ki

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<v Speaker 2>art and I couldn't draw like a person that well,

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<v Speaker 2>so I made you a cat and you had a

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<v Speaker 2>little gavel that was animated and you would hear people

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<v Speaker 2>send some money and decide if they were guilty or not.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, that's so I watched so much People's Court.

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<v Speaker 2>To you, I absolutely.

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<v Speaker 3>Was it.

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<v Speaker 1>Was it gratifying to you when you started, even as

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<v Speaker 1>a kid, designing games. Was it gratifying to see something

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<v Speaker 1>that you had imagined be a reality? At what point?

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<v Speaker 1>What really got you hooked in that?

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<v Speaker 2>It was totally the experience of having somebody sit down

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<v Speaker 2>and play with it. Actually made board games also, we

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<v Speaker 2>would my sister and I would create life size board

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<v Speaker 2>games in our basement because we had this weird, like

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<v Speaker 2>sixties psychedelic tile and so we would use each tile

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<v Speaker 2>as like a space and you would have to like

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<v Speaker 2>go to prom and things like that, and then we

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<v Speaker 2>would have people come over and play that, or I'd

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<v Speaker 2>have people playing my computer game. And it was watching

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<v Speaker 2>how people would react and you know, did they laugh,

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<v Speaker 2>were they surprised, did they try really hard to figure

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<v Speaker 2>something out? It was the ability to provoke I guess

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<v Speaker 2>all of these really positive emotions and see people like

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<v Speaker 2>try and be challenged was really interesting to me, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think through my whole life that has been the

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<v Speaker 2>single thing that's most interesting to me is that the

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<v Speaker 2>greatest joy you have as a game designer is the

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<v Speaker 2>first time people start to play with it and you're like,

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<v Speaker 2>oh my god, I had no idea that's what people

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<v Speaker 2>would do. Are going to change these twelve rules and

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<v Speaker 2>change this constraint and refigure, you know, what the goal

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<v Speaker 2>is so that they do something different. But watching people

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<v Speaker 2>react and how it brings out good things in them

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe things you don't want to bring out of them,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can change it. It's like kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>being a chef and changing like the ingredients you're throwing in.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, just a fistful of delight, maybe a sprinkle of

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<v Speaker 1>reflective sadness. I mean, after all, she had a PhD

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<v Speaker 1>in performance studies, so the doc knows what's up, and

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<v Speaker 1>you also studied performance. So do you feel like there's

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<v Speaker 1>something almost like watching people watch a performance or watching

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<v Speaker 1>someone watch a play or a movie that you've designed

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<v Speaker 1>or written. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I mean in the same way that theater or choreography,

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<v Speaker 2>you need a performer to make it real, right, the

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<v Speaker 2>script or the choreography as it's designed. When somebody embodies it,

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<v Speaker 2>it comes to life. And when different people perform a

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<v Speaker 2>play or perform a dance or a song, they bring

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<v Speaker 2>something different to it and express themselves through it. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the same with a game, when when you design a

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<v Speaker 2>game or code a game, it's it's not real until

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<v Speaker 2>a player comes to it, and then they bring something

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<v Speaker 2>different to it. And with games you get an even

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<v Speaker 2>wider range I think of interpretation and expressivity, and so

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<v Speaker 2>they do very much have that kind of idea in common.

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<v Speaker 2>That people bring these artworks to life and that they

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<v Speaker 2>are the essence is actually funny. When I was really

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<v Speaker 2>I was a theater geek also growing up so like

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<v Speaker 2>double geek theater geek geek geek.

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<v Speaker 1>Jane says that when she was around eleven, she saw

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<v Speaker 1>a one woman play starring Lily Tomlin called The Search

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<v Speaker 1>for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe, which was

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<v Speaker 1>written by Lily Tomlin's now wife, Jane Wagner, and in it,

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<v Speaker 1>one character named Trudy is a homeless woman who encounters extraterrestrials.

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<v Speaker 1>She's trying to teach them what art is.

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<v Speaker 2>As you would do, and so she's showing them Andy

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<v Speaker 2>Warhol paintings of soup cans, and then they hold up

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<v Speaker 2>soup cans and they're like, is this art? And she's like, no,

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<v Speaker 2>this is the art. This is a painting. And there's

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<v Speaker 2>this whole thing. And then at the end of the play,

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<v Speaker 2>they go to the show. They go to the with

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<v Speaker 2>the Homeless Lady, and they forget to watch the play.

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<v Speaker 2>They were watching the audience and all of their reactions

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<v Speaker 2>and their laughter and their goose bumps, and the aliens

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<v Speaker 2>are like, you know, the play is suit, but the

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<v Speaker 2>audiences art. And I'm telling you that, like has. I

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<v Speaker 2>think that has. That's the most influential thing I in

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<v Speaker 2>my whole life I ever saw or heard. Because then

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<v Speaker 2>I became obsessed with you know, how the people who

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<v Speaker 2>interact with art or theater or games, they're the art.

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<v Speaker 1>So the people are the art. And Jane says when

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<v Speaker 1>she was first starting her PhD work, she was kind

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<v Speaker 1>of the weirdo because everyone else was studying the games themselves,

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<v Speaker 1>but she was studying the players and how the games

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<v Speaker 1>affected them. But I think it's good to be the

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<v Speaker 1>weirdo because that usually means that you have an impact

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<v Speaker 1>to make and you're the first person to be doing something.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you ever whisper to yourself, shit, why am

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<v Speaker 1>I a weirdo? Congratulations because you're probably doing something right.

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<v Speaker 1>And when did you start designing games as a job?

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<v Speaker 3>When did it become your career?

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<v Speaker 2>It's such a wacky road. I mean when I was

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<v Speaker 2>in college, I worked with the New York City Department

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<v Speaker 2>of Parks and Recreation and I helped run these like

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<v Speaker 2>really big, large gale recreation events, like an Easter egg

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<v Speaker 2>hunt for thirty five thousand kids and you know, Central Park.

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<v Speaker 2>And I always think of that as some of my

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<v Speaker 2>early game design work, because you know, they are games

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<v Speaker 2>are not digital, but you come out and play. And

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<v Speaker 2>when I went to grad school I started my PhD

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<v Speaker 2>program at Berkeley. I was meant to be studying scientists

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<v Speaker 2>and specifically quantum physicists and how they collaborate and how

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<v Speaker 2>they communicate their research with the public, so not at

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<v Speaker 2>all games. I got a side gig my first semester

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<v Speaker 2>as a PhD student. There was a new game company

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<v Speaker 2>in San Francisco, that they wanted to essentially play games

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<v Speaker 2>in reality. They were inspired by the Michael Douglas movie.

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<v Speaker 2>The game and.

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<v Speaker 1>Sumer Recreation Services call that number why they make your

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<v Speaker 1>life fun.

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<v Speaker 2>That's so which you know, he can't tell is it real?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it the game? It's a bunch of actors pretending

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<v Speaker 2>to be real people, and they give emissions and his

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00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.919
<v Speaker 2>whole life is transformed and he has these amazing revelations

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<v Speaker 2>about you know, the meaning of everything. But also it's

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00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:31.360
<v Speaker 2>really confusing because the game is played in reality. And

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00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:32.960
<v Speaker 2>so this company was like, we're going to do that,

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00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:34.360
<v Speaker 2>but we're going to be nice and it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>be fun and silly, and you're not going to be confused.

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<v Speaker 2>They're still running all these reality games and you run

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<v Speaker 2>around the city and do missions like pay funal ring

295
00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:44.679
<v Speaker 2>and they'll give your code and then you'll find a

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<v Speaker 2>box and a pile of leaves and the code opens

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00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:48.799
<v Speaker 2>the box and there's a raft inside and you have

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<v Speaker 2>to take the wrapped out on a lake and then

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00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.679
<v Speaker 2>you find like the snorkel equipment. You have to find

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<v Speaker 2>something at the botty of the lake, and then like

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00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.840
<v Speaker 2>there's I mean, it's like you know, you get to

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00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:00.320
<v Speaker 2>be really adventurous in reality. Anyway, they hired me and

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00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:04.480
<v Speaker 2>that was like, that was the beginning. That was how

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00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.919
<v Speaker 2>I earned my credentials to go to the Game Developers Conference.

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00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:10.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I'm totally a game developer.

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<v Speaker 1>So working in theater turned to working in live events,

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00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.639
<v Speaker 1>turned to working in live events with mobile phones, and

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00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.159
<v Speaker 1>then when did that go digital? What happened? Well, nine

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00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.080
<v Speaker 1>to eleven did. Jane had just moved to San Francisco

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00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:25.919
<v Speaker 1>a few weeks before after leaving in New York for

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00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:26.600
<v Speaker 1>six years.

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00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:30.399
<v Speaker 2>Something weird that happened while we were processing all of

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00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.679
<v Speaker 2>that was that an online community of gamers that we'd

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00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.120
<v Speaker 2>been a part of earlier that year, playing this online

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00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:39.799
<v Speaker 2>game called the AI Web Game. It was very collaborative.

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00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:42.720
<v Speaker 2>You're like forty thousand people on one team, all trying

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00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.480
<v Speaker 2>to solve the same puzzle. I mean kind of like

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00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:46.879
<v Speaker 2>early Reddit in a way, like everybody's trying to solve

319
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:51.080
<v Speaker 2>the same problem using message boards. And that community came

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00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:52.919
<v Speaker 2>back to the message board even though the game had

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00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.240
<v Speaker 2>ended a couple months earlier, and they were like, can

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00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:57.559
<v Speaker 2>we solve nine eleven? I mean it wasn't even called

323
00:16:57.559 --> 00:16:59.720
<v Speaker 2>that yet, but like, can we solve this. Can we

324
00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.279
<v Speaker 2>figure out what happened? When it started to emerge that

325
00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.960
<v Speaker 2>it was a distributed terrorist network, they're like, great, we're

326
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.400
<v Speaker 2>a distributed network of collective intelligence. We can understand how

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00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.279
<v Speaker 2>they might think or operate. We can figure out what

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00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:16.720
<v Speaker 2>security holes they they snuck through. And they started to

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00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:20.000
<v Speaker 2>want to use their game skills to help. And that

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00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.599
<v Speaker 2>was really interesting to me because I was feeling powerless

331
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.279
<v Speaker 2>and everyone around me was feeling like just like frozen,

332
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:31.599
<v Speaker 2>and here's this online community people saying, wait, we are

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00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:36.400
<v Speaker 2>super collaborative, super collective intelligence. We you know, save the

334
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.880
<v Speaker 2>world in this game. It would be stupid not to

335
00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:41.039
<v Speaker 2>try to use those skills to help when the world

336
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:47.440
<v Speaker 2>really needs it, and that that desire that that was

337
00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:49.559
<v Speaker 2>literally the day I'm like, I think maybe I should

338
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:54.359
<v Speaker 2>study video games and gamers and how they collaborate instead

339
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:56.839
<v Speaker 2>of how physicists do, because I wanted to find out like,

340
00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:00.960
<v Speaker 2>is this delusional, is this crazy wishful thinking because we're

341
00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:05.200
<v Speaker 2>also overwhelmed, or are there problems that gamers could solve

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00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:08.680
<v Speaker 2>and are there questions they can investigate and ways that

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00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:11.960
<v Speaker 2>they could use their skills in real life? And eventually

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00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.599
<v Speaker 2>I started designing, you know, digital games, just to see

345
00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:18.640
<v Speaker 2>if I could be the person to come up with

346
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:21.440
<v Speaker 2>that bridge, Like I'm going to make a game that

347
00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.920
<v Speaker 2>has real problems in it so that gamers can test

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00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:27.480
<v Speaker 2>out this hypothesis that they have.

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00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:31.160
<v Speaker 1>How did they do with their research into nine to eleven?

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00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:36.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, it morphed pretty quickly into trying to be

351
00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:41.079
<v Speaker 2>of service. So what wound up actually practically happening was

352
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.599
<v Speaker 2>getting people out to donate blood and volunteer, so it

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00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:51.519
<v Speaker 2>became sort of more like community mobilization. But the same

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00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:56.880
<v Speaker 2>group of people then started investigating things like government corruption

355
00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:00.720
<v Speaker 2>and cold cases, and they created a kind of spin

356
00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:04.559
<v Speaker 2>off site called Collective Detective, and so they kind of

357
00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.480
<v Speaker 2>continue to play with us and see what they could

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00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:09.920
<v Speaker 2>do over the next couple of years, and that was

359
00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:13.880
<v Speaker 2>really when I started designing games. Those are the people

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00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:15.039
<v Speaker 2>who showed up first to play.

361
00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.000
<v Speaker 1>So side note, I went to go look up Collective

362
00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.720
<v Speaker 1>Detective and the website has no pages, there's nothing to click,

363
00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:26.160
<v Speaker 1>simply the text investigating the Mysteries of Austin Appointments by

364
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.359
<v Speaker 1>referral only. So I'm both spooked and intrigued. Do you

365
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.599
<v Speaker 1>have a favorite game that you have designed.

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00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.720
<v Speaker 2>Mmmm, oh, of course. I mean when I think the

367
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:40.359
<v Speaker 2>one that's nearest and dearest to my heart would be

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00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Top Secret Dance Off. Don't know if you are familiar

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00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:45.920
<v Speaker 2>with this one.

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00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.319
<v Speaker 1>So I have not played Top Secret Dance Off, as

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00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.279
<v Speaker 1>it gained huge popularity almost ten years ago, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>not in the app store, unlike her other hit games Super.

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<v Speaker 2>Better, I have Super Better, of course, but yeah, a

374
00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:01.119
<v Speaker 2>few more, yeah, more people play. It's super better than

375
00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Top Secret Dance Off because I actually had to shut

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<v Speaker 2>it down after about six months because it was taking

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00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.519
<v Speaker 2>over the players lives and I just like could not handle.

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00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:10.640
<v Speaker 2>Like the average time spent in the game was about

379
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:14.000
<v Speaker 2>six hours a day, which was it was too much.

380
00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:16.640
<v Speaker 2>But so the idea behind the game is, let's say

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<v Speaker 2>you want to dance, but you're shy, Like this is

382
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:21.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot of my games are based on my own problems.

383
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.400
<v Speaker 2>You really want to dance. Dancing is great for you,

384
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.079
<v Speaker 2>it feels good, but you're super shy. Maybe if you

385
00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.079
<v Speaker 2>could dance in disguise, then it would bring out like

386
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.000
<v Speaker 2>the top Secret Dancer in you. So the premise of

387
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:37.680
<v Speaker 2>the game was you start the game by creating your avatar,

388
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:40.920
<v Speaker 2>which is not a digital avatar. It's a disguise that

389
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:43.240
<v Speaker 2>you put on in real life and you introduce yourself

390
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:46.319
<v Speaker 2>to the community by doing the first dance quest, which

391
00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.400
<v Speaker 2>is to dance without moving your feet. So this introduces

392
00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:52.839
<v Speaker 2>your avatar, which like people were wearing like masks and wigs,

393
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.920
<v Speaker 2>and I mean, it's just amazing. Just invented the most

394
00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:59.000
<v Speaker 2>beautiful characters. And then there's a series of dance quests

395
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.480
<v Speaker 2>that you unluck like dance subside down and dance on

396
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.599
<v Speaker 2>a crosswalk and it was and then you power up

397
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:09.480
<v Speaker 2>with things like plus one creativity and plus one coordination

398
00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:12.839
<v Speaker 2>and plus one courage, and the points were given to

399
00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:14.839
<v Speaker 2>you by other players. This is two thousand and nine.

400
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.559
<v Speaker 2>So people became like essentially like today's Instagram stars, but

401
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.680
<v Speaker 2>like for but for being characters and dance videos, and

402
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.720
<v Speaker 2>you didn't know who these people were. But I have

403
00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:27.359
<v Speaker 2>since had the opportunity to meet many of these people

404
00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:29.839
<v Speaker 2>in real life and they're amazing. But it got really

405
00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.759
<v Speaker 2>popular and weird places, like it was super popular in

406
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:34.839
<v Speaker 2>New Zealand for a while, and I went down there

407
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:36.920
<v Speaker 2>to give a talk and like all the morning shows

408
00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:39.279
<v Speaker 2>had me on TV and they're like film crews following

409
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:41.359
<v Speaker 2>me around like it was a weirdly popular thing in

410
00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:44.200
<v Speaker 2>New Zealand. But what I loved about it is because

411
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:46.200
<v Speaker 2>you got all your points from other players, and you

412
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.559
<v Speaker 2>could only give people positive feedback, and if you gave

413
00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:51.599
<v Speaker 2>them a point, you had to explain why. So it's

414
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:53.119
<v Speaker 2>just like you post a video and then you'd have

415
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.599
<v Speaker 2>one hundred comments from people giving you points in these

416
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.920
<v Speaker 2>really amazing strengths and also saying wonderful things about you've

417
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.960
<v Speaker 2>never seen so much just love and people expressing themselves.

418
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:09.440
<v Speaker 2>And finally, anyway, eventually shut the game down because it

419
00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:11.359
<v Speaker 2>just like got out of control and I was self

420
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:15.640
<v Speaker 2>funding it and it was you know, I'm not an entrepreneur,

421
00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:17.720
<v Speaker 2>so I mean, I probably should have tried to get

422
00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:20.279
<v Speaker 2>VC funding or something, but I just shut it down

423
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:21.319
<v Speaker 2>and said, it seems like.

424
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:25.559
<v Speaker 1>A lot of your games have really amazing intentions. You

425
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:28.599
<v Speaker 1>changed the way people live or think. So after designing

426
00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:31.480
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of games, including Cruel to Be Kind, I

427
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:34.680
<v Speaker 1>Love Bees, The Lost Ring, and of course Top Secret

428
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:37.359
<v Speaker 1>Dance Off, Jane was working in her home office and

429
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.039
<v Speaker 1>she stood up quickly. She hit her head on an

430
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:43.480
<v Speaker 1>open cabinet door and suffered a concussion, which must have

431
00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:49.240
<v Speaker 1>hurt like a bitch so bad. Now, recovery was really rocky,

432
00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:52.799
<v Speaker 1>and she ended up developing her huge game Super Better

433
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:57.000
<v Speaker 1>to help others dealing with anxiety and depression and recuperation.

434
00:22:57.440 --> 00:22:59.519
<v Speaker 1>So for more on this, you can see her ted talk,

435
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:02.759
<v Speaker 1>which was ranked in the top twenty most engaging TED

436
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:06.480
<v Speaker 1>Talks once lot higher than Bill Gates's dead Talk. I'm

437
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:10.680
<v Speaker 1>just saying, and so, how how far into game development

438
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:13.119
<v Speaker 1>did this happen? And can you tell me a little

439
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:17.160
<v Speaker 1>bit about about Super Better and about kind of your

440
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.319
<v Speaker 1>recovery with that and how it made you look at games.

441
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:21.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this happened in the summer of two thousand

442
00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:24.480
<v Speaker 2>and nine. So this was actually after we've been doing

443
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:27.200
<v Speaker 2>Topsic a dance off for about six months, and I

444
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:30.279
<v Speaker 2>was in the middle of writing my first book on games.

445
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:32.319
<v Speaker 2>So I had sold the book and I had to

446
00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:35.079
<v Speaker 2>write it, and I was like halfway through it, and

447
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:39.359
<v Speaker 2>so I was already like totally persuaded that games bring

448
00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:41.440
<v Speaker 2>out the best in us and games can change the world.

449
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:45.440
<v Speaker 2>That already finished my PhD. I was well into this

450
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.640
<v Speaker 2>and writing the book on it when I did get

451
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:50.960
<v Speaker 2>this concussion that you know, I was supposed to heal

452
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:52.480
<v Speaker 2>in a few days, and then it was supposed to

453
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:53.839
<v Speaker 2>be a few weeks, and then it was supposed to

454
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:56.200
<v Speaker 2>be a few months, and it actually, I mean, it

455
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.799
<v Speaker 2>took years to feel essentially one hundred percent again. But

456
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.200
<v Speaker 2>during that time, you know, I had to stop writing,

457
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:05.400
<v Speaker 2>which created a lot of anxiety because the book was

458
00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:07.599
<v Speaker 2>due in a few months. I had to stop my

459
00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:10.119
<v Speaker 2>other work because I couldn't think clearly. I had to

460
00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:12.640
<v Speaker 2>stop running. I couldn't exercise it all because I was

461
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.440
<v Speaker 2>having so much vertigo and nausea with like even just

462
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.960
<v Speaker 2>moving my head. I couldn't socialize. I'd like go out,

463
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:22.359
<v Speaker 2>and even just being around like fluorescent lights would make

464
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.680
<v Speaker 2>me feel like like I would, you know, essentially would

465
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.839
<v Speaker 2>fall over, And so I couldn't do anything. Doctors are like,

466
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:32.119
<v Speaker 2>you have to stop. You can't you know, have caffeine

467
00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:35.279
<v Speaker 2>because it's creating triggering symptoms. You can't play video games

468
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:38.240
<v Speaker 2>is triggering symptoms. And on top of not being able

469
00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:42.680
<v Speaker 2>to literally do anything, I also started to have serious depression,

470
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.160
<v Speaker 2>partly from not being able to do anything, partly withdrawing

471
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:50.519
<v Speaker 2>from things like running and work and socialization, but also

472
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.039
<v Speaker 2>I learned later that you know, one in three people

473
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:57.160
<v Speaker 2>with a concussion experienced serious depression, and it seems to

474
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:01.000
<v Speaker 2>be part of the brain's way of protecting you that

475
00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:05.240
<v Speaker 2>it's very dangerous to get another concussion shortly after a concussion.

476
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.240
<v Speaker 2>It's called second impact syndrome, and you can die. And

477
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:10.519
<v Speaker 2>part of what happens when your brain is trying to

478
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:14.480
<v Speaker 2>heal is it literally does not want you to like

479
00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:16.519
<v Speaker 2>crawl out of the cave or get out of bed,

480
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.359
<v Speaker 2>and want you to protect yourself and just sit stay

481
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:22.440
<v Speaker 2>put until it's safe to go out in the world again.

482
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:25.480
<v Speaker 2>The part of the brain that anticipates good things happening.

483
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:26.640
<v Speaker 2>By the way, I didn't know any of this at

484
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:28.279
<v Speaker 2>the time, right I had to learn this because I'm like,

485
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.240
<v Speaker 2>why why did my brain break? Why do I want

486
00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:34.480
<v Speaker 2>to die? But I learned later that the part of

487
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:37.480
<v Speaker 2>the brain that anticipates good things happening, and when it's

488
00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:41.519
<v Speaker 2>sort of fired up and you're getting dopamine hits and

489
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:44.440
<v Speaker 2>your brain saying, hey, go out there, get that thing

490
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.759
<v Speaker 2>you want. It's a good food that you're smelling, or

491
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.759
<v Speaker 2>it's like your partner, your pet and you want to

492
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:53.200
<v Speaker 2>hug or a lick, and it gives you energy and focus.

493
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:55.759
<v Speaker 2>That part of the brain just says, no, thank you,

494
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:58.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to imagine anything good happening because I

495
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.359
<v Speaker 2>want you to stay in bed and let your brain heal.

496
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:01.759
<v Speaker 3>How amazing is this?

497
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:02.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay?

498
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:05.599
<v Speaker 1>Also content learning. Jane went through some pretty tough times

499
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:09.200
<v Speaker 1>following her concussion, and we talk a little about suicidal

500
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:12.519
<v Speaker 1>ideation after brain injury, which was something I knew nothing

501
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:14.440
<v Speaker 1>about because people just don't talk about it.

502
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:16.960
<v Speaker 2>And when that part of the brain doesn't fire, you

503
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:20.279
<v Speaker 2>get really depressed and even suicidal because you literally cannot

504
00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:25.160
<v Speaker 2>imagine anything good happening. Your brain just says, nope, I'm

505
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.519
<v Speaker 2>not going to let you picture that. And I learned,

506
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:29.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of after all this is happening to me.

507
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.160
<v Speaker 2>That's part of why suicidal ideation is so common in

508
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:37.160
<v Speaker 2>traumatic brain injury, because it's a very natural response to

509
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:42.559
<v Speaker 2>It's a rational response to not believing that anything could

510
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.720
<v Speaker 2>ever happen that would be good, that nothing will ever

511
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:51.759
<v Speaker 2>make you happy. And somehow through all of this, the

512
00:26:51.799 --> 00:26:54.119
<v Speaker 2>fact that I did research into how games affect our

513
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:58.480
<v Speaker 2>psychology and our brain gave me like one kind of

514
00:26:58.599 --> 00:27:03.839
<v Speaker 2>holy grail ahamoc, like maybe I can force my brain

515
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.759
<v Speaker 2>back into believing that good things can happen as a

516
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.440
<v Speaker 2>result of my own efforts and attention, which took me

517
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:13.000
<v Speaker 2>years of researching after the concussion to put all the

518
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:16.039
<v Speaker 2>pieces together. But it turns out that that is that's

519
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:19.440
<v Speaker 2>the fundamental neuroscience of gaming. Your brain says, hey, something

520
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:22.440
<v Speaker 2>good could happen. You could go further in the game,

521
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:25.000
<v Speaker 2>get a higher score, you could get an advantage on

522
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:27.880
<v Speaker 2>your opponent if you take an action, if you make

523
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.480
<v Speaker 2>a decision, and that part of the brain that believes

524
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.559
<v Speaker 2>that something good could happen and gives you energy and

525
00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:35.680
<v Speaker 2>focus and optimism, it goes nuts when we play games.

526
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:39.039
<v Speaker 2>That's like the signature finding of the Famior research on

527
00:27:39.160 --> 00:27:39.759
<v Speaker 2>video gaming.

528
00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:42.359
<v Speaker 1>So the premise for the work that Jane did was

529
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:46.920
<v Speaker 1>trying to bring a gameful mindset to things like recovering

530
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:51.559
<v Speaker 1>from traumatic brain injury or depression or anxiety. And she

531
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:54.960
<v Speaker 1>went on to develop the thank You game for Oprah,

532
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:58.279
<v Speaker 1>and Jane has said that she's secretly curious about how

533
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:02.519
<v Speaker 1>games can develop the seven positive traits that Buddhists believe

534
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:05.720
<v Speaker 1>can help end suffering. So what are those traits? I

535
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:14.279
<v Speaker 1>had no idea Mindfulness, investigation, energy, joy, relaxation, concentration, and equanimity.

536
00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:17.599
<v Speaker 1>So how do we go from game playing to a

537
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.279
<v Speaker 1>more chill, happy brain? And I ask this for the

538
00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:24.440
<v Speaker 1>sake of my own brain selfishly, can you tell me

539
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:27.359
<v Speaker 1>kind of how games change the way we think or

540
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:30.119
<v Speaker 1>what happens in the brain. What happens is dopamine and serotonin,

541
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.079
<v Speaker 1>Like what's going on in that brainy soup?

542
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:34.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Okay, there's like so much I want people to

543
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.519
<v Speaker 2>know about this, And they're two big pieces, and so

544
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:39.799
<v Speaker 2>I want to tell both of them, because not everybody

545
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:44.160
<v Speaker 2>like benefits from playing video games. Like for some people

546
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:49.000
<v Speaker 2>it can become almost like pathological. It takes them out

547
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.319
<v Speaker 2>of reality, It takes them out of their social relations

548
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:53.559
<v Speaker 2>within their goals. So I want to preface what I'm

549
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:56.480
<v Speaker 2>going to say by this doesn't naturally happen for all

550
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.000
<v Speaker 2>people like the good things, And there are ways that

551
00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:01.759
<v Speaker 2>you can if you don't have a good relationship with gaming,

552
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:04.279
<v Speaker 2>that you can change it so that you're more likely

553
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:06.119
<v Speaker 2>to get the benefit. So I just want to preface

554
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:08.200
<v Speaker 2>all this by saying, it's not like games are some

555
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:10.519
<v Speaker 2>magic pill that you play them and good things happen

556
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:13.319
<v Speaker 2>to you. It really depends on how you play and

557
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:16.359
<v Speaker 2>why you play, that good things can happen for a

558
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:17.079
<v Speaker 2>lot of people.

559
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:19.839
<v Speaker 1>Just allow me to reiterate that disclaimer.

560
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:23.440
<v Speaker 4>Games are not a magic pill, and not everybody benefits

561
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:27.599
<v Speaker 4>from video games, especially if you have a pathological relationship

562
00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:30.720
<v Speaker 4>to them. However, they can really help in the following ways.

563
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:34.240
<v Speaker 2>So that the signature thing that I would say as

564
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:38.079
<v Speaker 2>probably the person who has studied I mean, I don't

565
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:40.839
<v Speaker 2>think there's ever been a scientific paper written about video

566
00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:44.519
<v Speaker 2>games that have not read thousands of them. I am

567
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:47.680
<v Speaker 2>on it. I would say this sort of signature finding

568
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.559
<v Speaker 2>has to do with self efficacy. So self advocacy is

569
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:56.240
<v Speaker 2>the belief that you have the ability to take actions

570
00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:59.279
<v Speaker 2>that can help you achieve your goals right, and so

571
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:02.799
<v Speaker 2>you have skill, you have resources, you have pathways forward,

572
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:06.039
<v Speaker 2>and different people have different kinds of self effogacy, Like

573
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:07.759
<v Speaker 2>I might have a lot of self efficacy as a

574
00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:12.119
<v Speaker 2>cook in the kitchen, but maybe not in my fashion

575
00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:15.079
<v Speaker 2>sense of what should I wear today? I'm just not

576
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:18.359
<v Speaker 2>feeling like I have a lot of talent in that area.

577
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.279
<v Speaker 2>Different people have self efficacy in different areas. But if

578
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.559
<v Speaker 2>you have the experience of gaining self efficacy in new areas,

579
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:30.519
<v Speaker 2>it can develop a kind of mindset that does translate.

580
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:33.599
<v Speaker 2>So if you are often doing things that you're bad

581
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:36.920
<v Speaker 2>at and then stay with it and get better, and

582
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:40.119
<v Speaker 2>suddenly you have new skills, and you acquire new resources,

583
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:43.920
<v Speaker 2>and you have achieved new goals and milestones. Your brain

584
00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:46.680
<v Speaker 2>gets better at looking at a difficult skill or task

585
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:49.839
<v Speaker 2>and saying, let me try it, because I have a

586
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:52.960
<v Speaker 2>great and long history of getting better at things that

587
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:57.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm bad at. And that's what gaming does for most people.

588
00:30:57.319 --> 00:30:59.759
<v Speaker 2>Games are designed to be hard the first time we

589
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:05.039
<v Speaker 2>play them. They are ridiculously challenging. I mean, you think

590
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:07.200
<v Speaker 2>about a game like golf, where the goal is to

591
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.440
<v Speaker 2>get a small ball and a small hole, and it

592
00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:12.880
<v Speaker 2>is such a bad method to achieve that goal, like

593
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:16.440
<v Speaker 2>to stand really far away from the hole and then

594
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:18.039
<v Speaker 2>you stick. It's stupid.

595
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:19.880
<v Speaker 4>You've got to make the game a little bit easier.

596
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:22.599
<v Speaker 2>Why would we do that to ourselves. We do it

597
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.559
<v Speaker 2>because we want that experience of being bad and then

598
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:31.960
<v Speaker 2>getting better and having to use creativity and use practice

599
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:35.759
<v Speaker 2>and determination and learning from others. And so all games

600
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:37.759
<v Speaker 2>are like that, whether it's Candy Crush or Pokemon Go,

601
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:39.799
<v Speaker 2>whatever it is, you get better over time, and the

602
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:44.319
<v Speaker 2>more different games you play, the more your brain gets

603
00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:49.240
<v Speaker 2>used to being frustrated, hanging in there, feeling optimistic in

604
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:53.359
<v Speaker 2>the face of setbacks. And that is the one generalizable

605
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.279
<v Speaker 2>positive impact of games that we see. No matter what

606
00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:00.599
<v Speaker 2>kind of game you play, sport, challenging, cooperative board, you're

607
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:03.559
<v Speaker 2>playing bridge, you're playing a video game. If we can

608
00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:07.680
<v Speaker 2>help you get comfortable with not being good at something,

609
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:10.200
<v Speaker 2>trying using your skills and ability to get better at it,

610
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:12.039
<v Speaker 2>and then you do in fact get better, that that

611
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:14.200
<v Speaker 2>can translate to the rest of your life. That's the

612
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:17.319
<v Speaker 2>That's a lot of my work has been helping people.

613
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:20.160
<v Speaker 2>One make sure you're always playing different games, like the

614
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:23.240
<v Speaker 2>person who always plays mind Sweeper or Solitaire like they've

615
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:27.039
<v Speaker 2>been playing it for thirty years, not not having this

616
00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:29.680
<v Speaker 2>benefit you got you got to you got to try

617
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:32.720
<v Speaker 2>Fortnite or something like. You got to expose yourselves to

618
00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:37.000
<v Speaker 2>interfaces you don't understand and communities that are totally strange

619
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.720
<v Speaker 2>to you, so that you're you're always learning and improving.

620
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:44.440
<v Speaker 1>Tell Grams, get on a headset, go play Call of Duty.

621
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:45.359
<v Speaker 2>She's gonna love it.

622
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.359
<v Speaker 1>She's gonna love it. So some people really benefit to

623
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:49.880
<v Speaker 1>a point.

624
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:52.759
<v Speaker 2>But when you look at the research literature, the people

625
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:58.720
<v Speaker 2>who really benefit from this experience are people who feel

626
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.720
<v Speaker 2>like games are real in a way, like they don't

627
00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:03.920
<v Speaker 2>see them as a scapist. They don't play games to

628
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:09.400
<v Speaker 2>ignore their problems or like shove down negative feelings or

629
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.680
<v Speaker 2>get away from people who are annoying them. Those people

630
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:15.920
<v Speaker 2>tend to not benefit because they see games as separate

631
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:19.119
<v Speaker 2>from reality, so they don't bring the same mindset to

632
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:21.359
<v Speaker 2>real life. And those are the type of players who

633
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:24.759
<v Speaker 2>go on to be like you would call it addicted.

634
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:26.799
<v Speaker 2>It's not quite an addiction, but it's a kind of

635
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:30.200
<v Speaker 2>compulsive gameplay where they play more than it's good for them,

636
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:32.640
<v Speaker 2>and they feel like they just have to keep playing

637
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.039
<v Speaker 2>because everything else is so terrible. People who can answer

638
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:38.519
<v Speaker 2>the question like what does it take to be good

639
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:40.920
<v Speaker 2>at this game? What have you gotten better at since

640
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:43.359
<v Speaker 2>you started playing this game, and can talk about it

641
00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:45.599
<v Speaker 2>in a way that's bigger than.

642
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:48.119
<v Speaker 1>Just the game, such as, for example, I'm.

643
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:52.680
<v Speaker 2>A good communicator under stress with my teammates, or I'm

644
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.359
<v Speaker 2>really good at thinking of different approaches to a problem.

645
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:57.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't just try one way, I try lots of ways.

646
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Whatever it is that you think it needs you need

647
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.240
<v Speaker 2>to be good at. If you can talk about that,

648
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.960
<v Speaker 2>you tend to start bringing those skills to real problems.

649
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.440
<v Speaker 2>And so like if you're a parent, or you're a

650
00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:11.280
<v Speaker 2>partner of a gamer, or you're a gamer, just answering

651
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:16.360
<v Speaker 2>those two questions can unlock essentially all the good stuff

652
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:19.360
<v Speaker 2>of games in reality, not just while you're playing.

653
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:23.519
<v Speaker 1>So being a good communicator under stress and looking for

654
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:27.639
<v Speaker 1>ways to solve problems both skills are aces. It's weird

655
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:30.920
<v Speaker 1>how if in a video game shit starts hitting fans.

656
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:34.239
<v Speaker 1>You can think logically or strategically you can overcome it.

657
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.920
<v Speaker 1>But sometimes in life it's easy just to feel bogged

658
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:38.920
<v Speaker 1>down and you just want to lie face down on

659
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:42.320
<v Speaker 1>a carpet and be like not today, life, I am defeat.

660
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:45.159
<v Speaker 1>But you can ask yourself, Hey, if this we're a game,

661
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.840
<v Speaker 1>what would I do? First off, let's comb my avatar's hair.

662
00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:51.800
<v Speaker 1>I never thought about applying it that way.

663
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:51.960
<v Speaker 4>That.

664
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it starts hard, gets frustrating, you get better at it.

665
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like, ally, is there is there a game that

666
00:34:57.840 --> 00:34:58.280
<v Speaker 2>you play?

667
00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:01.079
<v Speaker 1>I grew up with a lot of a pong and

668
00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:05.559
<v Speaker 1>like combat and like two pixels on a screen was

669
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:08.320
<v Speaker 1>the whole game. It's funny because I feel like I

670
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:11.840
<v Speaker 1>don't play as many games as my peers, and I

671
00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:14.400
<v Speaker 1>think instead I just use social media as a game

672
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.440
<v Speaker 1>for that same like reward and it's terrible.

673
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh but I know you can't because it's like all

674
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:24.840
<v Speaker 2>the has all the sort of sort of motivational aspects

675
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:30.400
<v Speaker 2>of games, but it's not. It's no, we got to

676
00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:35.800
<v Speaker 2>get you off social media and onto Tetris ninety nine.

677
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:39.039
<v Speaker 2>Maybe if you like old school games. It's like it's like,

678
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:41.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, one hundred people play Tetris against each other

679
00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:44.679
<v Speaker 2>until there's only one survivor, which means everybody loses. So

680
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:47.800
<v Speaker 2>you don't. I mean, you can just just embrace it.

681
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:50.679
<v Speaker 3>That's more what I need. And it's funny.

682
00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:55.039
<v Speaker 1>My my boyfriend plays League of Legend, and my nephew

683
00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:59.280
<v Speaker 1>and my nieces play Minecraft, and what I find is

684
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:02.559
<v Speaker 1>that they play with their friends. They play online, so

685
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:06.280
<v Speaker 1>they hang out that way. And I don't know, it

686
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.519
<v Speaker 1>seems like, is there a difference in games where you're

687
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:12.199
<v Speaker 1>playing against a computer versus you are in a community

688
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:13.679
<v Speaker 1>and your friends are on a headset and you're all

689
00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:16.039
<v Speaker 1>yelling at each other trying to like, you know, kill

690
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:18.400
<v Speaker 1>it the same elf. Clearly, I don't know what I'm

691
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:20.880
<v Speaker 1>talking about regarding League of Legends, but I just looked

692
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.000
<v Speaker 1>it up and there are elder dragons, rift heralds, marksmen,

693
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:27.920
<v Speaker 1>jungle monsters. I don't know if any of those are

694
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:29.079
<v Speaker 1>elves anyway.

695
00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:32.639
<v Speaker 2>Huge difference. And it's not that one is better or worse.

696
00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:35.880
<v Speaker 2>They're they're good for different things, right, So, like, if

697
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:39.239
<v Speaker 2>you're dealing with anxiety or depression, a single player game

698
00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:41.719
<v Speaker 2>is actually really good it because you can pull out

699
00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:44.199
<v Speaker 2>your phone and play it for a few minutes. Because

700
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.199
<v Speaker 2>one of the benefits of games is that it can

701
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:49.800
<v Speaker 2>stop rumination. Right, So if you're anxious, you're anxious because

702
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:52.519
<v Speaker 2>you're imagining things that could go wrong, right, and it

703
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:56.239
<v Speaker 2>requires it requires your brain to be actively focused on

704
00:36:56.599 --> 00:37:00.000
<v Speaker 2>visualizing things that scare you. So one of the best

705
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:03.119
<v Speaker 2>treatments for anxiety in the moment is to just stop

706
00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:07.639
<v Speaker 2>the ruminations, to make a conscious decision not to spend

707
00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:10.480
<v Speaker 2>time and energy on these thoughts. And so a game

708
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:12.599
<v Speaker 2>on your phone, it could be like a mini golf game,

709
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:15.119
<v Speaker 2>it could be you know, candy Crush, it could be

710
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:17.599
<v Speaker 2>Words with friends. Anything that you can play by yourself

711
00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:20.079
<v Speaker 2>is fine. Because it stops the thoughts. Same with depression.

712
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:24.239
<v Speaker 2>People depression ruminate on very negative thoughts about themselves or

713
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:28.440
<v Speaker 2>their circumstances, and if you can stop that flow of thought,

714
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:32.360
<v Speaker 2>it's an effective treatment. So single player games are great

715
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:35.760
<v Speaker 2>and they are really helpful for things like anxiety, depression,

716
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:43.039
<v Speaker 2>and pain, but social games are phenomenal for other things.

717
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.519
<v Speaker 2>The quality of positive emotions they create, the trust that

718
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:48.840
<v Speaker 2>they build. It's interesting you mentioned League of Legends. There's

719
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:51.719
<v Speaker 2>been great research showing that people who play League of

720
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:56.039
<v Speaker 2>Legends regularly have a stronger social support network than just

721
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:59.440
<v Speaker 2>about any other gamer, meaning there are more people in

722
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.199
<v Speaker 2>their lives who will be there for them if they

723
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:05.480
<v Speaker 2>need advice, if they need help in reality like help

724
00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:11.119
<v Speaker 2>moving or assistance, physical assistance. People play legal licens very

725
00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:15.400
<v Speaker 2>powerful social support system where the people they play with

726
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:20.400
<v Speaker 2>actually you know, will loan them money. There's something about

727
00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:25.559
<v Speaker 2>the pattern building your heroes together and depending on each

728
00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:30.440
<v Speaker 2>other to show up for your practicing or for your matches,

729
00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:32.920
<v Speaker 2>and so that's really interesting. You mentioned that the kind

730
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:36.800
<v Speaker 2>of long term relationships we build online are really powerful,

731
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:40.079
<v Speaker 2>and there's a term in game research and virtual reality

732
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:43.559
<v Speaker 2>research for one of the things that really heightens this,

733
00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:46.760
<v Speaker 2>which is presence. A lot of these games have a

734
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:51.119
<v Speaker 2>really strong presence, which means you feel like you are

735
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:55.679
<v Speaker 2>actually with someone, that you feel like you were in

736
00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:58.000
<v Speaker 2>the same physical space.

737
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:00.880
<v Speaker 1>Which brings us to talk Fortnite.

738
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:05.320
<v Speaker 2>If Fortnite has a phenomenal presence factor, people who go

739
00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:07.440
<v Speaker 2>hang out a Fortnite now, so like two hundred million

740
00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:12.119
<v Speaker 2>players out of nowhere, everybody's playing Fortnite, they feel like

741
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:16.000
<v Speaker 2>they are together. And when we physically spend time with

742
00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:20.199
<v Speaker 2>other people, it's a much stronger bonding. That happens because

743
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:25.039
<v Speaker 2>we take cues from body language and facial expression and

744
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:28.440
<v Speaker 2>the way that avatars are being designed, and you can

745
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:33.440
<v Speaker 2>express yourself through dances and different emotes where you can really,

746
00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:38.920
<v Speaker 2>i mean your avatar expresses emotion just like you do

747
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:41.639
<v Speaker 2>in reality. It allows us to have a kind of

748
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.639
<v Speaker 2>bonding that I would say previously you would have needed

749
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:46.280
<v Speaker 2>to be in the same room with someone. But we're

750
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:48.719
<v Speaker 2>seeing both in just talking to gamers, but also in

751
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.280
<v Speaker 2>the research literature that these games that have this very

752
00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:58.519
<v Speaker 2>strong presence, it does translate to a real social support system.

753
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:02.039
<v Speaker 1>So online friends in real life frinds. The gap is

754
00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:05.440
<v Speaker 1>kind of closing both can offer social support and often

755
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:09.000
<v Speaker 1>hanging out online strengthens your real life bonds. And that's

756
00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:13.280
<v Speaker 1>all so precious and so wonderful. But if you're wondering

757
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.360
<v Speaker 1>if there's a digital tipping point, I asked about that,

758
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:19.760
<v Speaker 1>like what happens if you're chasing dragons and then you're

759
00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:23.840
<v Speaker 1>chasing the dragon the addictive nature of it, or what's

760
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:26.760
<v Speaker 1>happening with dopamine and how that works? And are we

761
00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:29.280
<v Speaker 1>getting these like little hits kind of like gambling or

762
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:32.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of like, yeah, other pleasurable things in our lives,

763
00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:33.519
<v Speaker 1>how's that working?

764
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, Ali, there's so much to say here.

765
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:39.719
<v Speaker 2>Let me start. Let me start with the gambling question,

766
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:42.480
<v Speaker 2>because this I think people, If people can understand this,

767
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:47.079
<v Speaker 2>it will alleviate a lot of anxiety around video gaming

768
00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:51.039
<v Speaker 2>versus casino gaming. The thing that happens in your brain

769
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:53.800
<v Speaker 2>where you feel like something good could happen as a

770
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:57.400
<v Speaker 2>result of your actions. It is identical in gambling and

771
00:40:57.519 --> 00:40:59.880
<v Speaker 2>video gaming. Right. The part of your brain that says

772
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:03.039
<v Speaker 2>try again, try again, you might win, go ahead, go

773
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:06.599
<v Speaker 2>for it, that keeps you at that slot machine, or

774
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:10.079
<v Speaker 2>you just need to play another hand in gambling or

775
00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:13.599
<v Speaker 2>make another bet yes, that is identical to what's happening

776
00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:17.320
<v Speaker 2>in video gaming. But what happens in video gaming is

777
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:23.639
<v Speaker 2>you actually get better at skills and you acquire more resources,

778
00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:25.960
<v Speaker 2>and you gain more allies who can teach you and

779
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:29.679
<v Speaker 2>help you and show you the way. And as opposed

780
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:34.639
<v Speaker 2>to luck based gambling where you're just pulling the slot

781
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:37.800
<v Speaker 2>lever or scratching off a lottery ticket, you can actually

782
00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:41.840
<v Speaker 2>get better and improve your chances of winning in video gaming.

783
00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:45.400
<v Speaker 2>So it is a completely different psychological experience, a different

784
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:49.960
<v Speaker 2>neurological experience, because it is not delusional to stay engaged.

785
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:53.239
<v Speaker 2>And that is a big difference between video gaming and

786
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:57.679
<v Speaker 2>casino gaming is that the games and casinos are designed

787
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:00.719
<v Speaker 2>for you to lose. They want you to fail so

788
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:03.760
<v Speaker 2>they can take your money. And it is delusional when

789
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:07.000
<v Speaker 2>your brain says stay engaged, stay engaged bad. That is

790
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:11.960
<v Speaker 2>that is illsocial design and shameful right in my opinion.

791
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:14.599
<v Speaker 1>PS side notes, stay tuned for an episode on the

792
00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:17.960
<v Speaker 1>lottery with a Latologist. You don't believe all do word?

793
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:22.079
<v Speaker 1>Please see Lotterycollectors dot com, or you can subscribe to

794
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:25.519
<v Speaker 1>the monthly newsletter The Latologist. I've got an itch to

795
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:27.719
<v Speaker 1>cover it. They can only be scratched by a dirty

796
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:30.119
<v Speaker 1>penny and a dream. But that's a different episode.

797
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:32.440
<v Speaker 2>In video gaming, the games are designed for you to

798
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:35.760
<v Speaker 2>win and to get better, and the developers are on

799
00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:38.519
<v Speaker 2>your side and they want you to experience success and

800
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:41.159
<v Speaker 2>they want you to develop real skills and build real

801
00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:45.199
<v Speaker 2>relationships that can help you succeed. And that's the big difference. So,

802
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:49.480
<v Speaker 2>even though some of the neuroscience is the same, the

803
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:52.800
<v Speaker 2>fact that you actually can improve in games and experience

804
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:58.480
<v Speaker 2>real meaningful development and growth and relationship building, it's a

805
00:42:58.519 --> 00:43:03.800
<v Speaker 2>different application of that kind of neurological experience. And so,

806
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:06.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, as we see games kind of spread into

807
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.400
<v Speaker 2>different areas of our lives, I always say, you know,

808
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:12.119
<v Speaker 2>is this a good use of game design? Is it

809
00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:15.599
<v Speaker 2>manipulating people to do things that maybe aren't in their

810
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:17.920
<v Speaker 2>best interest, or is this actually a good use of

811
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:21.239
<v Speaker 2>game design. It really depends on is there an opportunity

812
00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:24.840
<v Speaker 2>for them to really improve and experience success in something

813
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:28.599
<v Speaker 2>that's meaningful to them. Maybe, like fitness trackers are gamifying

814
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.119
<v Speaker 2>the steps you take, and that that actually is good

815
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:33.119
<v Speaker 2>for you, and you can take more steps and that

816
00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:37.039
<v Speaker 2>will have a virtuous feedback cycle where you feel healthier

817
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:40.079
<v Speaker 2>and now you're stepping more and you're sharing with friends,

818
00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:41.440
<v Speaker 2>and it's upward spiral.

819
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:43.960
<v Speaker 1>Take a sip of your beverage or blink twice. If

820
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:47.000
<v Speaker 1>your brain is like my brain trying to remember where

821
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:50.880
<v Speaker 1>your fitbit is and why you haven't charged it in months.

822
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:52.440
<v Speaker 2>That's really good. If you're using it just to get

823
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:55.320
<v Speaker 2>people to like buy more stuff or click on ads,

824
00:43:55.400 --> 00:43:57.960
<v Speaker 2>and how do you get better at clicking on ads?

825
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:00.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's not a good That is not a

826
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:04.840
<v Speaker 2>good system, and it doesn't lead to real growth and

827
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:09.280
<v Speaker 2>real relationship buildings. So that's that's my philosophy on how

828
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:11.440
<v Speaker 2>you know. Even though it's the same a lot of

829
00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:14.079
<v Speaker 2>the same stuff happening in the brain, it really matters

830
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:18.239
<v Speaker 2>if there's an opportunity for growth and success.

831
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:21.199
<v Speaker 3>And that actually brings me. I have a ton of Patreon.

832
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Questions I ask you, Yeah, so many questions, and so

833
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:26.840
<v Speaker 1>this is kind of like a lightning round, oky Dook.

834
00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:29.559
<v Speaker 1>So before the lightning round of questions from folks on

835
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:32.760
<v Speaker 1>patreon dot com slash ologies, I tell you about a

836
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:35.679
<v Speaker 1>few things I like. But before that, each week, a

837
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:37.960
<v Speaker 1>portion of the ad revenue goes to a charity or

838
00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:41.159
<v Speaker 1>a cause that theologists chooses, and this week Jane picked

839
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:45.920
<v Speaker 1>ablegamers dot org, which works to make gaming accessible to all. So,

840
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:49.760
<v Speaker 1>in their words, we give people with disabilities custom gaming setups,

841
00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:54.000
<v Speaker 1>including modified controllers and special assistive technology like devices that

842
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:55.840
<v Speaker 1>like you play with your eyes so you can have

843
00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:59.159
<v Speaker 1>fun with friends and family. And they're using the power

844
00:44:59.159 --> 00:45:01.840
<v Speaker 1>of video games to bring people together improve the quality

845
00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:05.880
<v Speaker 1>of life with recreation and rehabilitation. So that's ablegamers dot

846
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.679
<v Speaker 1>org doing awesome stuff. So thank you, Jane. A donation

847
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:11.480
<v Speaker 1>was made to them. Now a few words from sponsors

848
00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:14.280
<v Speaker 1>who make the podcast possible. They're also all linked in

849
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:19.639
<v Speaker 1>the show notes. Okay, back to your Patreon questions, which

850
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:24.880
<v Speaker 1>are good ones, but that dovetails just wonderfully into one

851
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:28.079
<v Speaker 1>Patreon question. I got a ton from Mark Williams, and

852
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:32.000
<v Speaker 1>from David Baffa and from Sasha kd. They all asked

853
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:34.679
<v Speaker 1>about gamification. And I know that I don't think that

854
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:38.760
<v Speaker 1>you love the words, but is the gamification of behavior

855
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:41.760
<v Speaker 1>a useful technique? Sasha k wants to know how do

856
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:43.360
<v Speaker 1>you feel about gamification of everything?

857
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:46.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you are awesome Ali for knowing that I do

858
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:50.039
<v Speaker 2>not use a word gamification to describe my own work

859
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:54.000
<v Speaker 2>because just historically it's been used not in ways that

860
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.800
<v Speaker 2>authentically empower or bring the best out of the people

861
00:45:56.800 --> 00:46:03.079
<v Speaker 2>who are being gamified. So so my philosophy is, if

862
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:07.360
<v Speaker 2>you are connecting with somebody's deeply held values, what do

863
00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:09.960
<v Speaker 2>they want more in their life? They want to be

864
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:12.119
<v Speaker 2>a better parent, They want to learn something new every day.

865
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:13.840
<v Speaker 2>They want to be braver and get out in the

866
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:18.000
<v Speaker 2>world more, be more physically active, you know, whatever it

867
00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:20.599
<v Speaker 2>is that they authentically want to do that they choose

868
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:24.719
<v Speaker 2>for themselves. If you can put a quest system or

869
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:29.760
<v Speaker 2>a leveling up system, or a kind of cooperation opportunity

870
00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:32.440
<v Speaker 2>where they are multipliers, if if you and your friends

871
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:34.880
<v Speaker 2>are doing it together, you can add some game design

872
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:38.320
<v Speaker 2>elements that help people do more of what they want.

873
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:41.559
<v Speaker 2>And if they do it, they're going to experience an

874
00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:43.960
<v Speaker 2>upper spiral of skill and ability so they can maintain

875
00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:48.519
<v Speaker 2>it outside of the game. That's an ideal situation for gamification.

876
00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:51.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, I will always say with my own game

877
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Super Better, that's not a game I want you to

878
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:54.960
<v Speaker 2>play your whole life. I want you to play it

879
00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:57.880
<v Speaker 2>for a few weeks and then get that upward lift

880
00:46:58.039 --> 00:47:00.440
<v Speaker 2>and kind of go back to reality and maybe come

881
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:05.000
<v Speaker 2>back next year if you need another upward lift. We

882
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:09.960
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't be gamifying our whole lives in perpetuity, right. We

883
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:12.719
<v Speaker 2>should use it as a way to give us that

884
00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:15.920
<v Speaker 2>authentic experience of getting better at something that matters to us.

885
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:18.840
<v Speaker 2>And then once we're better and we're doing it, that

886
00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:23.639
<v Speaker 2>authentic value and reward system will replace the need for

887
00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:25.480
<v Speaker 2>a more artificial game one.

888
00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:29.239
<v Speaker 1>So if your aunt or your coworker announces every time

889
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:31.599
<v Speaker 1>they hit their water goal for the day, don't hate

890
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:34.760
<v Speaker 1>the player, hate the gamification. And then a bunch of

891
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:40.039
<v Speaker 1>people Colin Matthew, Carla Kennedy, Helen Amy Connor all asked

892
00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:43.079
<v Speaker 1>about dreams. Why do I dream about Tetris? After playing

893
00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:46.559
<v Speaker 1>Tetris for a long time? Two people, in particular, Colin

894
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:48.719
<v Speaker 1>and Amy both said, I love Tetris, but if I

895
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:50.280
<v Speaker 1>play it too long, I start thinking about it all

896
00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:52.960
<v Speaker 1>the time, and when I close my eyes, I literally

897
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:56.159
<v Speaker 1>see little Tetramino swalling. Why does this happen? And is

898
00:47:56.199 --> 00:47:58.679
<v Speaker 1>it a Soviet mind control conspiracy? Just kidding on the

899
00:47:58.760 --> 00:47:59.159
<v Speaker 1>last person.

900
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:02.079
<v Speaker 2>It is not. First of all, I can say, having

901
00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:04.880
<v Speaker 2>hung out with the original designer of Tetris. I will

902
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:08.679
<v Speaker 2>tell you he's super nice and kudley and it's not

903
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:11.400
<v Speaker 2>a secret Soviet mind control mission.

904
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:14.519
<v Speaker 1>So quick aside. The creator of Tetris was inspired by

905
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:19.679
<v Speaker 1>the math game Pentomenos, which looks just like analogue Tetris. Also,

906
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:23.599
<v Speaker 1>he is not an agent of Soviet mind control. His

907
00:48:23.719 --> 00:48:29.159
<v Speaker 1>name is just Alexi Leonodovic Petchibanoff and he's from Moscow.

908
00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:34.480
<v Speaker 2>So this is the greatest question because the other public

909
00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.159
<v Speaker 2>service announcement I always like to do about video games

910
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.719
<v Speaker 2>actually has to do with Tetris and how it takes

911
00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:44.480
<v Speaker 2>over your mind, because there have been three randomized control

912
00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:48.599
<v Speaker 2>trials and studies and clinical trials now including one in

913
00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:53.079
<v Speaker 2>the field with people who experienced traumatic events that show

914
00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:57.239
<v Speaker 2>that the way that Tetris takes over your brain so

915
00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:01.880
<v Speaker 2>that you are flashing back to it can prevent flashbacks

916
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:06.239
<v Speaker 2>associated with post traumatic stress disorder. And there's actually an

917
00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:10.559
<v Speaker 2>increasing usage of Tetris within twenty four hours of a

918
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:12.920
<v Speaker 2>traumatic event. If you were in a car accident, maybe

919
00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:17.320
<v Speaker 2>you witness a violent activity, or you were a victim

920
00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:21.079
<v Speaker 2>of violent activity, that if you play Tetris within twenty

921
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:24.440
<v Speaker 2>four hours and before you go to sleep, that your

922
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:27.159
<v Speaker 2>brain is more likely to flash back on tetris and

923
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:30.840
<v Speaker 2>the event, which reduces the rate of traumatic flashbacks in

924
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:38.199
<v Speaker 2>the future. And it happens because Tetris is so visually

925
00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:43.480
<v Speaker 2>compelling and requires so much visual attention that your brain

926
00:49:43.639 --> 00:49:46.280
<v Speaker 2>essentially diverts resources from everything else.

927
00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:46.320
<v Speaker 4>And.

928
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:51.559
<v Speaker 2>It works so hard on this problem that when you

929
00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:55.119
<v Speaker 2>walk away from it, your brain is continuing to work

930
00:49:55.159 --> 00:49:57.360
<v Speaker 2>on it. It's like it's when you give so much

931
00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.559
<v Speaker 2>attention to a problem, your brain thinks it's a priority, essentially.

932
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:05.000
<v Speaker 2>And so because tetris is so visually challenging, your brain

933
00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:07.559
<v Speaker 2>essentially thinks like, oh, that's a priority. I'm going to

934
00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:09.639
<v Speaker 2>keep thinking about it when I walk away, when I

935
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:12.519
<v Speaker 2>go to sleep. And so in a way, tetris is

936
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:16.599
<v Speaker 2>kind of like this miracle. Even if you're not traumatized,

937
00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:18.800
<v Speaker 2>If you had a really bad day and you don't

938
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:21.239
<v Speaker 2>want to sit there thinking about it, or like stay

939
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:24.360
<v Speaker 2>up all night thinking about it, you can use tetris

940
00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:28.679
<v Speaker 2>to block your brain from flashing back on an experience

941
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:31.400
<v Speaker 2>that you don't want to remember. You use the power

942
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:33.719
<v Speaker 2>of tetris to flash back on tetris. I mean, I

943
00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:36.679
<v Speaker 2>can't tell you since I started sharing this research I've

944
00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:41.800
<v Speaker 2>heard from people who've been through really horrible, terrifying things

945
00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:46.079
<v Speaker 2>who were able to get the game on their phone

946
00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:50.719
<v Speaker 2>and play it and felt like they benefited and had

947
00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:54.280
<v Speaker 2>fewer nightmares and flashbacks than they thought. So to your

948
00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:59.679
<v Speaker 2>patrons who have observed this, they are correct, and it

949
00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:01.679
<v Speaker 2>can be used in really powerful ways.

950
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:06.199
<v Speaker 1>Oh that's so amazing, just like BRB downloading teches.

951
00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, can you have it?

952
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:11.880
<v Speaker 1>I downloaded Tetris immediately after this interview. Also, this is

953
00:51:11.920 --> 00:51:14.480
<v Speaker 1>going to be a hole aside about video game music

954
00:51:14.599 --> 00:51:18.320
<v Speaker 1>and its origins and history and composition. But in researching it,

955
00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:20.559
<v Speaker 1>I found out that the study of video game music

956
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:25.960
<v Speaker 1>is known as lotto musicology. For real, for real, there

957
00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:28.880
<v Speaker 1>are experts all over the world who do this. So yes,

958
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:31.360
<v Speaker 1>you best believe this is on the list. All in favor,

959
00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:33.119
<v Speaker 1>say bebop booo boo boop.

960
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, good, Okay.

961
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:38.039
<v Speaker 1>I got a ton of questions also about wait, hold on,

962
00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:40.280
<v Speaker 1>I have so many, so many.

963
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:42.639
<v Speaker 3>Different pages of questions, it's crazy. Okay.

964
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:46.559
<v Speaker 1>I got a ton of questions about VR like Justin so,

965
00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:53.079
<v Speaker 1>Dion Dabbelow, Kirana Bergstrom, and Janelle York all wanted to

966
00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:55.079
<v Speaker 1>know what video game.

967
00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:57.400
<v Speaker 3>Advances should we look forward to, Like, how do you.

968
00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:00.360
<v Speaker 1>See the industry developing, and how does VR a an

969
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:04.599
<v Speaker 1>AR change game design like virtual reality and augmented.

970
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:09.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh, so many things. Okay, I'm going to focus

971
00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:12.639
<v Speaker 2>on a few things. One thing, one advance that we

972
00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:15.239
<v Speaker 2>are going to see in gaming in general as a

973
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.199
<v Speaker 2>result of virtual reality, I believe is that gaming will

974
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:24.039
<v Speaker 2>become a socially safer and more pleasant space for people

975
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:30.440
<v Speaker 2>who have historically experienced more harassment. So for women, people

976
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:33.719
<v Speaker 2>who are identified as queer. There can be a lot

977
00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:38.159
<v Speaker 2>of harassment in social gaming, and that's just a fact.

978
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:40.519
<v Speaker 2>I spent a lot of time talking to VR developers,

979
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:43.199
<v Speaker 2>and I know that all of the major VR developers

980
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:46.920
<v Speaker 2>are very much focused on not repeating the mistakes of

981
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:50.159
<v Speaker 2>the past of both social media and video gaming. They

982
00:52:50.199 --> 00:52:53.280
<v Speaker 2>do not want VR to be a space where anybody

983
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:55.119
<v Speaker 2>can come up to you and tell you what they think,

984
00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:57.920
<v Speaker 2>anybody can come up to you and have an interaction

985
00:52:58.000 --> 00:52:58.280
<v Speaker 2>with you.

986
00:52:58.679 --> 00:52:59.880
<v Speaker 4>What are you looking at? Butt hit?

987
00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:04.880
<v Speaker 2>They want to invent new kinds of technologies for consent,

988
00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:07.519
<v Speaker 2>for who can see you, who can touch you, who

989
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:12.079
<v Speaker 2>can talk to you. I'm very optimistic that VR is

990
00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:18.280
<v Speaker 2>going to thoughtfully not replicate the kind of toxic environments

991
00:53:18.280 --> 00:53:21.320
<v Speaker 2>that we've seen in social media and video gaming in

992
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:25.119
<v Speaker 2>the past. That's one thing. Yeah. Another thing that I'm

993
00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:30.159
<v Speaker 2>excited about in VR is VR esports. So there are

994
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:38.559
<v Speaker 2>esports is obviously becoming really popular and accepted. I mean,

995
00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:43.400
<v Speaker 2>there are college scholarships, there's college leagues, there's more people

996
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:50.679
<v Speaker 2>watching online World Championships for the biggest League of Legends finals,

997
00:53:50.719 --> 00:53:56.719
<v Speaker 2>then watched Major League Baseball World Series and watch the NHL.

998
00:53:56.599 --> 00:53:59.199
<v Speaker 1>Okay quick aside, just to fact check this, let's look

999
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:02.559
<v Speaker 1>at the most watched World Series in recent years. Twenty

1000
00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:06.000
<v Speaker 1>sixteen Chicago Cubs are in the World Series for the

1001
00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:09.039
<v Speaker 1>first time since nineteen oh seven. This is a big deal.

1002
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:13.599
<v Speaker 1>Game seven, Who's gonna win? The viewership is about triple

1003
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:16.599
<v Speaker 1>what it usually is for a World Series, with forty

1004
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:21.920
<v Speaker 1>million people watching the Chicago Cubs take the victory forty million.

1005
00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:24.559
<v Speaker 1>Oh but last year the number of people watching the

1006
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:27.360
<v Speaker 1>League of Legends Finals was one hundred million. Well that's

1007
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:30.599
<v Speaker 1>an exaggeration. It was ninety nine point six million. So yeah,

1008
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:31.239
<v Speaker 1>that's a lot.

1009
00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:34.639
<v Speaker 2>Sorry Cubs, it's very popular. But I'm interested in esports

1010
00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:37.840
<v Speaker 2>and VR because the esports and VR are often very physical.

1011
00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:41.199
<v Speaker 2>If you look at images or videos of them online,

1012
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:46.119
<v Speaker 2>you see people leaping and crawling, and there's a real

1013
00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:50.719
<v Speaker 2>blend of physical sport, but also all the things that

1014
00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:53.320
<v Speaker 2>require you to be good in video games and esports,

1015
00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:58.519
<v Speaker 2>the kind of fast reflexes and visual attention and resource

1016
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:03.000
<v Speaker 2>management that are the kind of strategic decision making that

1017
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:05.920
<v Speaker 2>we see in traditional video games in esports, so I'm

1018
00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:10.320
<v Speaker 2>excited for VR esports also as a way to have

1019
00:55:10.400 --> 00:55:16.920
<v Speaker 2>both real, physical and beautiful gameplay alongside traditional esports skills.

1020
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:21.400
<v Speaker 1>Someone developed VR Frogger, but make it like Mission Impossible,

1021
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:24.519
<v Speaker 1>but ushering toads across freeways. Come on?

1022
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:25.880
<v Speaker 3>Do for the toads.

1023
00:55:26.159 --> 00:55:29.840
<v Speaker 1>A bunch of people also had questions about parenting. And

1024
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:32.000
<v Speaker 1>I know that you have twin four year olds, so

1025
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:33.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure this is going to be a thing for you.

1026
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:40.159
<v Speaker 1>But let's see Matt Soalgato, Carla Hickenlooper, Roda Acaria, Carla

1027
00:55:40.280 --> 00:55:44.239
<v Speaker 1>Kennedy and a few other people asked about addiction to

1028
00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:48.719
<v Speaker 1>like when should people when should kids start playing video games?

1029
00:55:48.760 --> 00:55:49.800
<v Speaker 1>And how much is too much?

1030
00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so you cannot go wrong if you are playing

1031
00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:56.480
<v Speaker 2>the game with them, that's That's the first and most

1032
00:55:56.480 --> 00:56:01.320
<v Speaker 2>important rule. There's no too soon if you are playing

1033
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:04.440
<v Speaker 2>with them and talking to them about it, and for

1034
00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:07.599
<v Speaker 2>as long as you can continue this, the better. So

1035
00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:10.360
<v Speaker 2>even if it's a single player game, you know, somebody

1036
00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:13.199
<v Speaker 2>they're building something in Minecraft. You are sitting right there,

1037
00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:15.760
<v Speaker 2>You're like, what are you doing? How did you know

1038
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:18.280
<v Speaker 2>to do that? How did you figure that out? Like, ah,

1039
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:21.920
<v Speaker 2>looks really hard. What's going on? Talk to your kids,

1040
00:56:22.039 --> 00:56:27.119
<v Speaker 2>let them express their problem solving process, what's motivating them

1041
00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:29.599
<v Speaker 2>about the game. Why is this fun? You want to

1042
00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:33.599
<v Speaker 2>just draw out as much as you can, because it

1043
00:56:33.639 --> 00:56:39.599
<v Speaker 2>allows kids to really reflect on how they learn, what

1044
00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:44.400
<v Speaker 2>they're getting better at, how they are capable of solving

1045
00:56:44.440 --> 00:56:49.920
<v Speaker 2>difficult problems, and staying engage with hard challenges. Games are

1046
00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:53.440
<v Speaker 2>just the most incredible environment for you to validate your

1047
00:56:53.480 --> 00:56:57.239
<v Speaker 2>kids' skills and abilities as a learner, as a creative person,

1048
00:56:57.320 --> 00:57:01.039
<v Speaker 2>as a problem solver. So it's never too early if

1049
00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:04.400
<v Speaker 2>you're playing with them and at whatever age they are,

1050
00:57:04.840 --> 00:57:06.880
<v Speaker 2>the more that you can reflect back to them.

1051
00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:08.559
<v Speaker 1>What if they get annoyed with you?

1052
00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:10.760
<v Speaker 2>They get annoyed with you if it's like a I mean,

1053
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:12.800
<v Speaker 2>you know if they're playing Fortnite, they don't want you

1054
00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:17.559
<v Speaker 2>asking them necessarily while they're trying to like frantically build

1055
00:57:17.559 --> 00:57:20.239
<v Speaker 2>an escape route. But afterwards, talk to them. I'm talking

1056
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:24.559
<v Speaker 2>about dinner. And so that's the first and most important thing.

1057
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:27.079
<v Speaker 2>I Some parents are to tell me like, oh, games

1058
00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:30.360
<v Speaker 2>seem like kind of antisocial. Well, they're probably talking to

1059
00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:33.119
<v Speaker 2>their friends on a headset. Or if you think it's antisocial,

1060
00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:35.880
<v Speaker 2>just sit and play with them, and you've successfully solved

1061
00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:39.199
<v Speaker 2>that problem. And the other thing about in terms of timing,

1062
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:43.400
<v Speaker 2>I did help you a meta analysis of all the

1063
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:46.400
<v Speaker 2>studies that have looked at kids and adults how much

1064
00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:51.079
<v Speaker 2>is too much? And I will say that there have

1065
00:57:51.920 --> 00:57:55.039
<v Speaker 2>never been studies showing ill effects when people are playing

1066
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:58.880
<v Speaker 2>less than twenty hours a week. You do see impacts

1067
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:02.320
<v Speaker 2>on school performing, on social relationships with people who don't

1068
00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:05.000
<v Speaker 2>play games, on physical health and well being over twenty

1069
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:08.400
<v Speaker 2>hours per week. So that's just another kind of safe zone.

1070
00:58:08.559 --> 00:58:10.800
<v Speaker 2>And you can say, you know, in our family, we

1071
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:12.559
<v Speaker 2>don't play more than twenty hours a week. We just

1072
00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:15.719
<v Speaker 2>don't do that, because that's what all the research says.

1073
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:18.000
<v Speaker 2>It starts to kind of interfere with other goals that

1074
00:58:18.039 --> 00:58:22.679
<v Speaker 2>you have or your physical wellbeings, so we just don't

1075
00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:27.199
<v Speaker 2>do it. And in cases of serious pathological gameplay, when

1076
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:29.920
<v Speaker 2>people are staying up all night, they're not doing the schoolwork,

1077
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:33.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm not looking for a job. I always say, get

1078
00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:36.079
<v Speaker 2>it to twenty hours or less. Do not take the

1079
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:39.800
<v Speaker 2>game away, because if you understand the powerful effects of

1080
00:58:39.880 --> 00:58:43.119
<v Speaker 2>games on things like anxiety and depression and social support,

1081
00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:46.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, taking games entirely away from someone, that's like

1082
00:58:46.119 --> 00:58:49.320
<v Speaker 2>pulling them off an antidepressant or an anti anxiety drug

1083
00:58:49.559 --> 00:58:50.480
<v Speaker 2>without tapering.

1084
00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:53.559
<v Speaker 1>I looked up quitting gaming Cold Turkey, and I did

1085
00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:57.559
<v Speaker 1>find a site called game quitters dot com which suggested

1086
00:58:57.639 --> 00:59:01.360
<v Speaker 1>taking a ninety day detox to re evaluate the role

1087
00:59:01.400 --> 00:59:04.280
<v Speaker 1>of gaming in your life. It also suggested that during

1088
00:59:04.280 --> 00:59:08.639
<v Speaker 1>that time, choose new activities, schedule out your day, and

1089
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:11.400
<v Speaker 1>stay out of the house as much as possible. So

1090
00:59:11.840 --> 00:59:13.760
<v Speaker 1>maybe it's a good idea to just record how much

1091
00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:16.440
<v Speaker 1>time you're spending on gaming if it's a problem, and then,

1092
00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:18.599
<v Speaker 1>as Jane says, you can just tape her off from there.

1093
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:22.079
<v Speaker 2>There's really no need to take it away entirely. It's

1094
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:25.559
<v Speaker 2>about getting it to a safe number of hours. So

1095
00:59:26.079 --> 00:59:29.519
<v Speaker 2>as an intervention, if you need to intervene get it

1096
00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:32.199
<v Speaker 2>down to twenty hours a week, and that is a

1097
00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:35.519
<v Speaker 2>much more effective strategy than trying to get somebody to

1098
00:59:35.519 --> 00:59:36.079
<v Speaker 2>stop playing.

1099
00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:37.519
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's so interesting.

1100
00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:41.360
<v Speaker 1>I love that you've read every paper ever all this information.

1101
00:59:42.159 --> 00:59:44.679
<v Speaker 1>And so a bunch of people asked about violence and

1102
00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:49.960
<v Speaker 1>video games, Emily Brabish and Elizabeth Janelle Yorke, Lauren Murray McKay,

1103
00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:53.599
<v Speaker 1>Sarah Jane, James, Amber Cooper, and then they all kind

1104
00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:57.159
<v Speaker 1>of ask do violent video games cause more violence? Is

1105
00:59:57.199 --> 00:59:59.880
<v Speaker 1>there any link between these ultra real estate violent games?

1106
01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:03.239
<v Speaker 1>And then Don Doherty affleck said, my husband is a lawyer,

1107
01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:05.320
<v Speaker 1>so my question is why does coming home from work

1108
01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:08.519
<v Speaker 1>and killing things in games like Dark Souls help him

1109
01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:10.280
<v Speaker 1>relax after a stressful day.

1110
01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:11.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's funny.

1111
01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:11.280
<v Speaker 1>Good.

1112
01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Dark Souls is a very specific example that's like almost

1113
01:00:14.360 --> 01:00:17.840
<v Speaker 2>like a masochistic game, Like it's very very hard, okay.

1114
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:21.719
<v Speaker 1>Ps I looked into this Japanese game of fortresses and

1115
01:00:21.800 --> 01:00:27.159
<v Speaker 1>knights and dragons and bonfires and moodally lit castle interiors

1116
01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:29.920
<v Speaker 1>to find a few things. One you can play as

1117
01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:33.480
<v Speaker 1>a person who has no skin, which looks essentially like

1118
01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:37.320
<v Speaker 1>a human made out of salami, killing things with a sword. Also,

1119
01:00:37.559 --> 01:00:40.599
<v Speaker 1>it's widely considered one of the best and most difficult

1120
01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:43.920
<v Speaker 1>video games ever made. Like there's not even a pause button.

1121
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:46.960
<v Speaker 1>There's no pause button. They're like, are you in this?

1122
01:00:47.239 --> 01:00:48.039
<v Speaker 1>Or are you in this?

1123
01:00:48.440 --> 01:00:50.599
<v Speaker 2>And so it's funny. I mean, there's like some like

1124
01:00:50.719 --> 01:00:53.199
<v Speaker 2>high powered lawyer who like works really hard and then

1125
01:00:53.239 --> 01:00:56.199
<v Speaker 2>comes home and plays like literally the hardest game is.

1126
01:00:56.880 --> 01:01:00.239
<v Speaker 2>It's definitely revealed something about that person's like personality. They

1127
01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:05.079
<v Speaker 2>really they really do like a challenge. So violence, Okay, Look, statistically,

1128
01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:08.760
<v Speaker 2>we know that ninety six percent of men under twenty

1129
01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:13.079
<v Speaker 2>one play violent video games. And I'd prefer to use

1130
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:16.840
<v Speaker 2>the term like games with violent content, because obviously the

1131
01:01:16.840 --> 01:01:19.840
<v Speaker 2>most violent game is like football, real football, where you

1132
01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:22.800
<v Speaker 2>are hitting people and causing brain injuries. That is an

1133
01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:26.559
<v Speaker 2>actually violent game. Video games are not actually violent. So

1134
01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:31.400
<v Speaker 2>let's say games with violent content or aggressive themes. Everybody

1135
01:01:31.400 --> 01:01:34.760
<v Speaker 2>plays them. And if you look at the data, violent

1136
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:39.920
<v Speaker 2>crime has gone down and down and down exactly as

1137
01:01:40.599 --> 01:01:44.599
<v Speaker 2>engagement with violent themed games has gone up and up.

1138
01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:47.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's like it's ridiculous. If there were any

1139
01:01:48.199 --> 01:01:53.519
<v Speaker 2>any correlation, let alone causation, you would not see this trend.

1140
01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:57.320
<v Speaker 2>This is like anybody who saidies this, well, that's the

1141
01:01:57.320 --> 01:02:00.639
<v Speaker 2>first thing they will say is over the past thirty years,

1142
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:05.199
<v Speaker 2>violence crime goes down, particularly in this demographic, the male demographic.

1143
01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:07.400
<v Speaker 2>It probably has to do with getting lead out of

1144
01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:11.119
<v Speaker 2>our paint. I mean, that's you should do a good

1145
01:02:11.119 --> 01:02:11.880
<v Speaker 2>aside on that.

1146
01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:14.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay. First off, the fact that Chaine listens to ologies

1147
01:02:14.920 --> 01:02:18.079
<v Speaker 1>and knows ido asides warms my heart to the point

1148
01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:21.960
<v Speaker 1>of bursting. And also, yes, lead paint. So according to

1149
01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:25.679
<v Speaker 1>an article on mother Jones that delves into the lead

1150
01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:29.639
<v Speaker 1>violence hypothesis, they say lead poisoning degrades the development of

1151
01:02:29.719 --> 01:02:35.039
<v Speaker 1>childhood brains in ways that increase aggression, reduce impulse control,

1152
01:02:35.239 --> 01:02:39.519
<v Speaker 1>and impair the executive functions that allow people to understand

1153
01:02:39.639 --> 01:02:43.199
<v Speaker 1>just the consequences of their actions. Because of this, infants

1154
01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:46.199
<v Speaker 1>who are exposed to high levels of lead are more

1155
01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:49.239
<v Speaker 1>likely to commit violent crimes later in life. So why

1156
01:02:49.400 --> 01:02:52.280
<v Speaker 1>is this? Brain scientists have done scans and found that

1157
01:02:52.360 --> 01:02:56.920
<v Speaker 1>because lead is really chemically similar to calcium, it displaces

1158
01:02:57.159 --> 01:03:01.119
<v Speaker 1>the calcium needed for brain development. So looking at the

1159
01:03:01.199 --> 01:03:04.920
<v Speaker 1>data is staggering. You can see how the bands of

1160
01:03:05.199 --> 01:03:08.559
<v Speaker 1>leaded gasoline and lead paint correspond to these huge drops

1161
01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:12.199
<v Speaker 1>in violent crimes. Ps I have a victimology episode coming

1162
01:03:12.280 --> 01:03:14.800
<v Speaker 1>up in Hell Yeah, we will be talking about.

1163
01:03:14.559 --> 01:03:18.159
<v Speaker 2>That violent crime is going down, violent themed gameplay is

1164
01:03:18.199 --> 01:03:21.320
<v Speaker 2>going up. It's just not there's no data to suggest

1165
01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:25.400
<v Speaker 2>that there is any kind of correlation, let alone causation. However,

1166
01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:28.840
<v Speaker 2>that said two things. There are certain types of gameplay

1167
01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:31.840
<v Speaker 2>that can turn you into a jerk. Not a violent person,

1168
01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:35.960
<v Speaker 2>but somebody who has less empathy for people they perceive

1169
01:03:36.079 --> 01:03:38.760
<v Speaker 2>is weaker than them, and who are kind of moodier

1170
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:42.159
<v Speaker 2>and may yell at you or be grumpy to you,

1171
01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:45.719
<v Speaker 2>and you're just like, ugh, why are you so obnoxious?

1172
01:03:45.800 --> 01:03:49.000
<v Speaker 2>Or such a jerk? That kind of gameplay is when

1173
01:03:49.039 --> 01:03:53.199
<v Speaker 2>you play in these very aggressive themed games against strangers

1174
01:03:53.719 --> 01:03:56.079
<v Speaker 2>who you don't know and will never see in person.

1175
01:03:56.599 --> 01:03:59.280
<v Speaker 2>We tend to dehumanize those opponents. We don't know who

1176
01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:02.679
<v Speaker 2>they are, we're playing anonymously online, we're trying to beat them.

1177
01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:05.199
<v Speaker 2>We build up in our mind that there's like horrible

1178
01:04:05.239 --> 01:04:08.119
<v Speaker 2>people and we hate them and we feel antagonistic towards them,

1179
01:04:08.920 --> 01:04:12.039
<v Speaker 2>and those emotions that we build up, the frustration, the anger,

1180
01:04:12.119 --> 01:04:14.679
<v Speaker 2>the hatred. It's not like you just walk away from

1181
01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:17.599
<v Speaker 2>the game and they evaporate so they can linger. Some

1182
01:04:17.639 --> 01:04:21.280
<v Speaker 2>people hypothesize that there's a kind of testosterone poisoning from

1183
01:04:21.320 --> 01:04:23.920
<v Speaker 2>this type of gameplay. I mean, poisoning is a little

1184
01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:26.960
<v Speaker 2>strong of a word, but your testosterone gets jacked up,

1185
01:04:27.199 --> 01:04:29.320
<v Speaker 2>and so, yeah, you're kind of a jerk. So you

1186
01:04:29.320 --> 01:04:31.719
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't spend all your time trying to beat people you

1187
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:34.360
<v Speaker 2>have never met and we'll never meet online. You know.

1188
01:04:34.519 --> 01:04:38.280
<v Speaker 2>Esports is different because these are much more collegial environments.

1189
01:04:38.360 --> 01:04:40.840
<v Speaker 2>You can play against the same people again and again

1190
01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:42.960
<v Speaker 2>and again. You can see them in person at tournaments.

1191
01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:44.119
<v Speaker 2>That's fine.

1192
01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:47.039
<v Speaker 1>And another thought about violence and video games.

1193
01:04:47.559 --> 01:04:50.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't like to play games where I have to

1194
01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:50.880
<v Speaker 2>kill people.

1195
01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:51.480
<v Speaker 1>I hate it.

1196
01:04:51.519 --> 01:04:54.480
<v Speaker 2>When I play Fortnite, I just hide and it's like

1197
01:04:54.559 --> 01:04:57.039
<v Speaker 2>literally a game of hide and seek for me, and

1198
01:04:57.119 --> 01:04:59.679
<v Speaker 2>I build stuff and I like, I've you know, I

1199
01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:01.920
<v Speaker 2>can get the top five finish without killing anyone, and

1200
01:05:01.960 --> 01:05:04.199
<v Speaker 2>to me, that's awesome. I don't like it. I don't

1201
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:06.280
<v Speaker 2>enjoy it. There's a reason why a lot of people

1202
01:05:06.320 --> 01:05:08.239
<v Speaker 2>don't enjoy it. Like a lot of people don't want

1203
01:05:08.239 --> 01:05:12.360
<v Speaker 2>to simulate violence because we don't enjoy it. And that's

1204
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:14.840
<v Speaker 2>a natural feeling, and it's why a lot of people

1205
01:05:14.960 --> 01:05:18.960
<v Speaker 2>are turned off by video game culture. It's not abnormal

1206
01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:23.079
<v Speaker 2>to not enjoy violence, like that's a that's also a

1207
01:05:23.119 --> 01:05:25.599
<v Speaker 2>normal thing. If you're turned off by it, that's okay.

1208
01:05:25.719 --> 01:05:27.679
<v Speaker 2>And you don't have to play violent video games, or

1209
01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:31.239
<v Speaker 2>if you play them, you don't have to necessarily engage

1210
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:34.599
<v Speaker 2>in the violent aspects of them. That is normal and

1211
01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:38.039
<v Speaker 2>that's fine. And I personally feel the same way.

1212
01:05:38.119 --> 01:05:41.480
<v Speaker 1>And this actually goes straight into Crystal Mendoza wanted to

1213
01:05:41.519 --> 01:05:44.000
<v Speaker 1>know what is the deal with Fortnite? Why is it

1214
01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:48.719
<v Speaker 1>so addicting? Is the is it the killing part or

1215
01:05:48.760 --> 01:05:52.920
<v Speaker 1>is it that kind of feeling that you're hanging out

1216
01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:55.239
<v Speaker 1>with friends, like that social aspect.

1217
01:05:55.360 --> 01:05:58.159
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of things that is kind of special

1218
01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:01.000
<v Speaker 2>about Fortnite. I mean, one of the things is just

1219
01:06:01.079 --> 01:06:03.760
<v Speaker 2>how easy it is to try again. So if you're

1220
01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:05.079
<v Speaker 2>in Battle Royal mode.

1221
01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Battle Royal Mode, by the bye is when a bunch

1222
01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:11.000
<v Speaker 1>of players play against each other, it's like a birthday party.

1223
01:06:11.320 --> 01:06:15.559
<v Speaker 2>But you die, you play, maybe you're dead in five minutes,

1224
01:06:16.280 --> 01:06:19.320
<v Speaker 2>you can just play again. You can drop back in

1225
01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:23.880
<v Speaker 2>parachute back down. You don't have to wait for anybody

1226
01:06:23.400 --> 01:06:28.320
<v Speaker 2>this sense of like just abundant opportunity and how fast

1227
01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:30.559
<v Speaker 2>the games are and how quickly you can try again.

1228
01:06:31.400 --> 01:06:33.039
<v Speaker 2>It really powers up that part of the brain that

1229
01:06:33.039 --> 01:06:35.960
<v Speaker 2>thinks that something good might happen, and it's just like like, oh,

1230
01:06:36.280 --> 01:06:39.280
<v Speaker 2>something good didn't happen. I'm out, but wait, I'm just

1231
01:06:39.280 --> 01:06:42.599
<v Speaker 2>gonna play again. Something good could happen now. That rapidity,

1232
01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:45.639
<v Speaker 2>that sort of iterative nature of the game is really

1233
01:06:45.679 --> 01:06:49.119
<v Speaker 2>really wonderful. And they've done such a good job with

1234
01:06:49.239 --> 01:06:55.679
<v Speaker 2>the expressivity of the avatars and how playful the different

1235
01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:59.000
<v Speaker 2>skins are, and you just when you encounter people and

1236
01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:01.599
<v Speaker 2>you see what they're you know what they're avatar is

1237
01:07:01.679 --> 01:07:03.840
<v Speaker 2>dressed as, and you see the emotes that they do

1238
01:07:04.599 --> 01:07:07.880
<v Speaker 2>when something good happens, you just kind of feel like

1239
01:07:07.920 --> 01:07:12.599
<v Speaker 2>you're seeing people. It's really interesting. People feel like there's

1240
01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:15.960
<v Speaker 2>an authentic personality that they're able to express or an

1241
01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:19.320
<v Speaker 2>authentic emotion, and it increases a sense of presence and

1242
01:07:19.360 --> 01:07:24.679
<v Speaker 2>it increases a sense of social being and so so yeah,

1243
01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:28.199
<v Speaker 2>the social side of it is really compelling to and

1244
01:07:28.239 --> 01:07:29.760
<v Speaker 2>I just think it's nice, like to play a game

1245
01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:32.079
<v Speaker 2>where ninety nine people are going to lose, and only

1246
01:07:32.079 --> 01:07:34.239
<v Speaker 2>one person wins. It kind of takes the pressure off.

1247
01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:36.639
<v Speaker 3>There can be one hundred people in the room and

1248
01:07:36.760 --> 01:07:38.280
<v Speaker 3>ninety nine don't believe in you.

1249
01:07:38.719 --> 01:07:40.880
<v Speaker 2>I think it's easier for people to jump in and

1250
01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:43.519
<v Speaker 2>it's you know, when you're playing chess, one person wins,

1251
01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:48.360
<v Speaker 2>one person loses, you were the loser in the battle.

1252
01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Real everyone's a loser. So it's a kind of a

1253
01:07:51.960 --> 01:07:55.159
<v Speaker 2>low pressure environment where good things can happen.

1254
01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:00.679
<v Speaker 1>What do you think about video games? In movies and TV?

1255
01:08:01.039 --> 01:08:04.119
<v Speaker 1>Is there anything that you've watched that you love or hate?

1256
01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:06.760
<v Speaker 1>And Stuart Caswell wanted to know from a game designer's

1257
01:08:06.800 --> 01:08:08.519
<v Speaker 1>part of view, what are your thoughts on Ready Player one?

1258
01:08:09.039 --> 01:08:11.920
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, are there any anything in pop culture that

1259
01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:14.000
<v Speaker 1>gets it wrong that you're excited about?

1260
01:08:14.079 --> 01:08:17.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, okay. Well, first of all, every Law and

1261
01:08:17.199 --> 01:08:19.840
<v Speaker 2>Order episode on every franchise of Law and Order and

1262
01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:25.319
<v Speaker 2>as CSI and Criminal Minds has been terrible, always never

1263
01:08:25.319 --> 01:08:28.199
<v Speaker 2>gets anything right. Well, it's obviously little like let's acknowledge

1264
01:08:28.239 --> 01:08:30.640
<v Speaker 2>that even though I like, I love them all and

1265
01:08:30.680 --> 01:08:33.840
<v Speaker 2>I watch this for you every week. But Ready Player

1266
01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:36.600
<v Speaker 2>one is interesting because I had a strong, viscual reaction

1267
01:08:36.760 --> 01:08:39.319
<v Speaker 2>to the book that I still kind of feel, which

1268
01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:40.479
<v Speaker 2>is I just don't believe it.

1269
01:08:40.920 --> 01:08:43.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I was maybe the last person on planet Earth

1270
01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:46.000
<v Speaker 1>to know the plot of Ready Player one. I just

1271
01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:48.680
<v Speaker 1>looked it up. It takes place in twenty forty five.

1272
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:51.840
<v Speaker 1>The world is a desolate hell escape and then to

1273
01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:54.600
<v Speaker 1>escape that, everyone just wears VR headsets. But there's a

1274
01:08:54.680 --> 01:08:57.439
<v Speaker 1>real life game that happens. That's all I'll say. Also,

1275
01:08:57.600 --> 01:09:01.359
<v Speaker 1>would everyone get a ton of forehead sets from wearing

1276
01:09:01.359 --> 01:09:03.640
<v Speaker 1>a headset all the time in the future or would

1277
01:09:03.680 --> 01:09:06.680
<v Speaker 1>it even matter because you just see each other's avatars anyway?

1278
01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:07.680
<v Speaker 1>Is this our future?

1279
01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:11.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that that VR is going to be

1280
01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:15.800
<v Speaker 2>the alternative to reality in that kind of really holistic

1281
01:09:15.880 --> 01:09:19.239
<v Speaker 2>way that Ready Player one imagines. I think augmented reality

1282
01:09:19.720 --> 01:09:22.880
<v Speaker 2>is a much more likely future, and that VR will

1283
01:09:22.920 --> 01:09:28.239
<v Speaker 2>be more often used for kind of short term immersions.

1284
01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:32.239
<v Speaker 2>I love VR. For example, it's being used in hospice

1285
01:09:32.239 --> 01:09:35.079
<v Speaker 2>care for people who still have like bucket list items

1286
01:09:35.159 --> 01:09:39.079
<v Speaker 2>but they're dying. VR for kind of reliving past experiences

1287
01:09:39.079 --> 01:09:42.479
<v Speaker 2>when we get this really immersive three sixty footage and

1288
01:09:42.520 --> 01:09:45.479
<v Speaker 2>you can kind of immerse yourself in things that you've

1289
01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:49.520
<v Speaker 2>experienced in the past. Like I think I just don't

1290
01:09:49.560 --> 01:09:51.680
<v Speaker 2>buy the vision of Ready Player one. I just don't.

1291
01:09:52.079 --> 01:09:55.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't see that that's what people want. Kind of

1292
01:09:55.479 --> 01:10:01.239
<v Speaker 2>going back to research, my PhD research methodology was largely ethnography,

1293
01:10:01.479 --> 01:10:06.439
<v Speaker 2>of really trying to understand what drives people and sit

1294
01:10:06.520 --> 01:10:09.680
<v Speaker 2>with the communities and sit with individuals and look for

1295
01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:14.079
<v Speaker 2>patterns that help explain how a society might evolve when

1296
01:10:14.119 --> 01:10:16.359
<v Speaker 2>you see a lot of the same thing bubbling up

1297
01:10:16.399 --> 01:10:19.439
<v Speaker 2>as a motivation and desire in different communities. And so

1298
01:10:19.840 --> 01:10:22.039
<v Speaker 2>I just don't buy Ready Player one as a vision.

1299
01:10:22.159 --> 01:10:23.680
<v Speaker 2>I think it's going to be augmented. If you look

1300
01:10:23.680 --> 01:10:25.600
<v Speaker 2>at what happened with Pokemon Go and how they were

1301
01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:28.960
<v Speaker 2>able to get almost a billion users in just a

1302
01:10:28.960 --> 01:10:32.159
<v Speaker 2>few months, no product has ever scaled as quickly, like

1303
01:10:32.239 --> 01:10:35.920
<v Speaker 2>including the wheel, like more humans used Pokemon Go a

1304
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:38.840
<v Speaker 2>vaster than anything that's ever been invented. And I think

1305
01:10:38.880 --> 01:10:41.319
<v Speaker 2>that gives us a better glimpse into what the future

1306
01:10:41.319 --> 01:10:44.359
<v Speaker 2>of gaming will be. Like people like Pokemon Go because

1307
01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:46.279
<v Speaker 2>you could still see the world, and you could still

1308
01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:49.319
<v Speaker 2>have face to face contact with other people, and you

1309
01:10:49.359 --> 01:10:52.079
<v Speaker 2>could be physically active which feels good, and get fresh

1310
01:10:52.119 --> 01:10:54.840
<v Speaker 2>air and all of that. So that's my feeling about

1311
01:10:54.880 --> 01:10:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Ready Player one. I don't think we're headed towards that future,

1312
01:10:57.560 --> 01:11:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and I'd love to see like Ready Player two should

1313
01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:03.640
<v Speaker 2>be about the augmented reality version of that world, and

1314
01:11:03.840 --> 01:11:05.079
<v Speaker 2>it might be a better one.

1315
01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:07.920
<v Speaker 1>I asked Jane if she watched Russian Doll on Netflix,

1316
01:11:08.079 --> 01:11:10.920
<v Speaker 1>in which Natasha Leone is a game designer. Jane says

1317
01:11:10.960 --> 01:11:12.800
<v Speaker 1>she didn't watch it because it might feel like work

1318
01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:14.960
<v Speaker 1>to her and Di stress her out. I mean, not

1319
01:11:15.079 --> 01:11:18.640
<v Speaker 1>unlike Fortnite. It's kind of a birthday party. Oh wait,

1320
01:11:19.079 --> 01:11:22.680
<v Speaker 1>I am not a last two questions if we have

1321
01:11:22.720 --> 01:11:25.800
<v Speaker 1>a second, is that cool? The thing that you hate

1322
01:11:25.880 --> 01:11:28.600
<v Speaker 1>the most about video games or your work? The shittiest

1323
01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:31.720
<v Speaker 1>thing about what you do most annoying can be anything.

1324
01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:38.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh god, the most annoying thing is I mean, it's

1325
01:11:38.199 --> 01:11:43.000
<v Speaker 2>just that I hate the shame around gaming that is

1326
01:11:43.039 --> 01:11:48.119
<v Speaker 2>perpetuated by the media and to some extent by anxious parents.

1327
01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:51.520
<v Speaker 2>It makes me crazy, and I think we need to

1328
01:11:51.560 --> 01:11:54.279
<v Speaker 2>stop shaming people for loving games, because we've loved games

1329
01:11:54.359 --> 01:11:57.239
<v Speaker 2>since we were human beings. Some of the oldest artifacts

1330
01:11:57.239 --> 01:12:00.680
<v Speaker 2>in the world are game boards and game dice. We

1331
01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:05.000
<v Speaker 2>need to stop creating unnecessary shame around this because it

1332
01:12:05.079 --> 01:12:09.119
<v Speaker 2>hurts people and it affects ourself image and really damaging

1333
01:12:09.199 --> 01:12:11.800
<v Speaker 2>long term ways. So that is the most annoying thing

1334
01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:14.880
<v Speaker 2>about games is the shaming, and the media has a

1335
01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:17.000
<v Speaker 2>big role to play in it, and we need to

1336
01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:17.399
<v Speaker 2>stop it.

1337
01:12:17.920 --> 01:12:21.880
<v Speaker 3>Video games they seem to have captured America's imagination and

1338
01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:24.079
<v Speaker 3>it's pocket change as well. That's legit.

1339
01:12:25.079 --> 01:12:28.079
<v Speaker 1>What is your favorite thing about video games or about

1340
01:12:28.079 --> 01:12:28.439
<v Speaker 1>what you do?

1341
01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:33.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, my favorite thing is I love with discovering

1342
01:12:33.680 --> 01:12:36.439
<v Speaker 2>a new game with my husband. Still. We've been together

1343
01:12:36.560 --> 01:12:40.479
<v Speaker 2>since two thousand, so almost twenty years now, and one

1344
01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:43.079
<v Speaker 2>of the first things we did together was play an

1345
01:12:43.199 --> 01:12:47.920
<v Speaker 2>adventure game called grim Fandango one players Lucas Art's browseres

1346
01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:50.880
<v Speaker 2>game you like explore world together and we spent a

1347
01:12:50.880 --> 01:12:53.239
<v Speaker 2>few weeks playing it together. And I still like. I

1348
01:12:53.279 --> 01:12:56.039
<v Speaker 2>love when a new game comes out, whether it's Gone

1349
01:12:56.079 --> 01:12:59.039
<v Speaker 2>Home Game or Fortnite, we can sit and experience it

1350
01:12:59.079 --> 01:13:02.279
<v Speaker 2>together and have the sort of memorable moments in our history,

1351
01:13:02.600 --> 01:13:05.479
<v Speaker 2>like when we found Portal, when we found Braid, when

1352
01:13:05.520 --> 01:13:08.760
<v Speaker 2>we found World of Warcraft. I really love developing a

1353
01:13:08.800 --> 01:13:13.159
<v Speaker 2>skill with him together and having that novelty and that

1354
01:13:13.439 --> 01:13:17.479
<v Speaker 2>exploration and curiosity. There's so many positive emotions that we

1355
01:13:17.520 --> 01:13:19.239
<v Speaker 2>feel when we play, and when you can feel them

1356
01:13:19.279 --> 01:13:22.359
<v Speaker 2>with someone you love, it's really powerful. And so I'm

1357
01:13:22.399 --> 01:13:27.279
<v Speaker 2>always excited when we have time and opportunity to discover

1358
01:13:27.479 --> 01:13:28.640
<v Speaker 2>a new game together.

1359
01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:31.800
<v Speaker 3>Open up a beer and you say good over here

1360
01:13:31.920 --> 01:13:32.600
<v Speaker 3>and play.

1361
01:13:32.479 --> 01:13:34.000
<v Speaker 2>A video game.

1362
01:13:36.039 --> 01:13:38.279
<v Speaker 1>I'm now I'm going to have to learn legal legends,

1363
01:13:38.319 --> 01:13:39.359
<v Speaker 1>stamp download Texas.

1364
01:13:39.880 --> 01:13:42.760
<v Speaker 2>Yes, good victory.

1365
01:13:42.880 --> 01:13:45.119
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for doing this. I'm so glad

1366
01:13:45.159 --> 01:13:46.560
<v Speaker 1>I finally got to talk to you. I feel like

1367
01:13:46.560 --> 01:13:48.880
<v Speaker 1>I've just towed the line of creepy of like, Hi,

1368
01:13:48.920 --> 01:13:49.399
<v Speaker 1>it's me again.

1369
01:13:49.960 --> 01:13:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Hi, oh no, And I wish you know what if

1370
01:13:51.920 --> 01:13:54.000
<v Speaker 2>I had known that you would interview people like on

1371
01:13:54.039 --> 01:13:56.239
<v Speaker 2>a bench at LAX. Also, we could have done this

1372
01:13:56.279 --> 01:14:00.039
<v Speaker 2>a long time ago, because that is something that I

1373
01:14:00.159 --> 01:14:01.840
<v Speaker 2>find myself sitting.

1374
01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:09.119
<v Speaker 1>So Yes, Jane McGonagall the woman the world needs. So

1375
01:14:09.439 --> 01:14:11.359
<v Speaker 1>befriend someone, and even if you have to do it

1376
01:14:11.399 --> 01:14:13.800
<v Speaker 1>over Skype in a remote sound booth four hundred miles away,

1377
01:14:13.840 --> 01:14:17.720
<v Speaker 1>asks smart people stupid questions, because they have the keys

1378
01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:20.840
<v Speaker 1>that can unlock the Easter eggs that can give you life,

1379
01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:24.239
<v Speaker 1>more lives. So find out more about Jane mcgonagal at

1380
01:14:24.359 --> 01:14:28.720
<v Speaker 1>janemcgonagal dot com. She's also avante game on Twitter and

1381
01:14:28.720 --> 01:14:30.760
<v Speaker 1>I'll link all this in the show notes, including the

1382
01:14:30.800 --> 01:14:35.079
<v Speaker 1>Nonprofitablegamers dot Org and a sponsor links. And Jane's book

1383
01:14:35.119 --> 01:14:38.479
<v Speaker 1>once Again is called super Better, a Revolutionary Approach to

1384
01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:43.079
<v Speaker 1>getting stronger, happier, braver, and more resilient, powered by the

1385
01:14:43.159 --> 01:14:47.399
<v Speaker 1>Science of Games. And also doctor Kelly McGonagall, Jane's sister,

1386
01:14:47.680 --> 01:14:51.119
<v Speaker 1>is a psychologist who studies how to make stress your friend.

1387
01:14:51.199 --> 01:14:52.880
<v Speaker 1>You better believe I'm going to try to make her

1388
01:14:52.920 --> 01:14:55.960
<v Speaker 1>come on the show. Mcgonagal's you all good folks, So

1389
01:14:56.079 --> 01:14:59.000
<v Speaker 1>to find ologies, you can follow ologies on Twitter and

1390
01:14:59.079 --> 01:15:02.119
<v Speaker 1>Instagram at all jeez and I'm Ali Ward with one

1391
01:15:02.319 --> 01:15:05.399
<v Speaker 1>L on both and for t shirts with the ologies

1392
01:15:05.479 --> 01:15:08.520
<v Speaker 1>logo and mugs and toads and pins and hats. All

1393
01:15:08.560 --> 01:15:11.359
<v Speaker 1>that is at ologismerch dot com. You can tag your

1394
01:15:11.399 --> 01:15:14.239
<v Speaker 1>Instagram photos Ologies merch so then I can repost them

1395
01:15:14.279 --> 01:15:17.560
<v Speaker 1>on Mondays if you want. Thank you Shannon Feltis and

1396
01:15:17.560 --> 01:15:20.720
<v Speaker 1>Bonnie Dutch for managing that. Thank you Aaron Talbert and

1397
01:15:20.800 --> 01:15:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Hannah Lippo for admitting the Facebook group full of great folks.

1398
01:15:25.000 --> 01:15:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Thank you to interns Harry Kim and Caleb Patten, to

1399
01:15:29.199 --> 01:15:32.600
<v Speaker 1>assistant editor Jared Sleeper of mind Jam Media, and of

1400
01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:35.800
<v Speaker 1>course to the incomparable Stephen Ray Morris of The per

1401
01:15:35.880 --> 01:15:39.399
<v Speaker 1>Cast and c Jurassic Right, and also to Nick Thorburn,

1402
01:15:39.600 --> 01:15:42.720
<v Speaker 1>who wrote and performed with the theme music. If you

1403
01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:43.920
<v Speaker 1>stick around to the end, you know I tell you

1404
01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:48.039
<v Speaker 1>a secret. This week you get too. Number one. After

1405
01:15:48.239 --> 01:15:52.319
<v Speaker 1>my disgusting botfly video confession last week, Stegosaur ch on

1406
01:15:52.399 --> 01:15:54.880
<v Speaker 1>Instagram dm me asking if I'd ever seen videos of

1407
01:15:55.000 --> 01:15:58.880
<v Speaker 1>mango worms and then roomed my life because I watched

1408
01:15:58.960 --> 01:16:02.960
<v Speaker 1>so many. It's so gross. They make bot flies just

1409
01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:05.199
<v Speaker 1>seem like child's play. Just don't do it. Don't do it.

1410
01:16:05.199 --> 01:16:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Don't do it.

1411
01:16:05.640 --> 01:16:08.439
<v Speaker 1>Don't do it. Don't do it. Also, my other secret

1412
01:16:08.479 --> 01:16:10.960
<v Speaker 1>is that I mentioned dating someone, and for years and

1413
01:16:11.039 --> 01:16:14.600
<v Speaker 1>years I've been super low pro about who I'm dating

1414
01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:17.520
<v Speaker 1>because it's just a vulnerable thing. And also what if

1415
01:16:17.520 --> 01:16:20.319
<v Speaker 1>it ends, and then you have to explain that to people.

1416
01:16:21.079 --> 01:16:25.960
<v Speaker 1>I just I just quiet about it. Anyway, Go get them, kiddos.

1417
01:16:26.039 --> 01:16:29.159
<v Speaker 1>You all mean so much to me. For bye. Pacodermatology

1418
01:16:29.239 --> 01:16:41.239
<v Speaker 1>mombiology or doo zoology lithology technology, meteorology, metatology, methology, zeriology, ethology,