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<v Speaker 1>What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up

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<v Speaker 1>where he left off with Kathy Rumler and her interview

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<v Speaker 1>with Congress Mister Grant. Question and the last main gift

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<v Speaker 1>I'll bring up is the Hermes bag. I believe it

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<v Speaker 1>was approximately a ten thousand dollars bag. Did you receive

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<v Speaker 1>that gift from mister Epstein? Answer? I did? Question and

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<v Speaker 1>did you similar question just asked were you involved in

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<v Speaker 1>picking out that gift at all? Answer? Not that I remember.

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<v Speaker 1>I do remember the circumstances of the gift, however, and

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<v Speaker 1>the circumstances were that I had mentioned earlier that in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty sixteen I had done a trial that was where

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<v Speaker 1>the damages. It was in federal court in California, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in Orange County, so it was south of LA and

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<v Speaker 1>the damages at stake were quite big. I don't remember exactly,

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<v Speaker 1>but I believe the damages claim at least was, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>several hundred million dollars. And I was representing a foreign bank.

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<v Speaker 1>This was not the roth Child's bank, it was a

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<v Speaker 1>different bank. And then you know, trial had some publicity

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<v Speaker 1>around it, and you know the publicity around it would

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<v Speaker 1>have suggested that this would have been a very difficult

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<v Speaker 1>case to defend, and that my client, which was a

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<v Speaker 1>foreign bank it was actually a foreign Middle Eastern bank,

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<v Speaker 1>was not very popular defendant in California. And I won

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<v Speaker 1>the trial, and so it was a complete defense verdict,

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<v Speaker 1>and so there was some media reporting in the legal

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<v Speaker 1>press around in particular my performance. You know, I had

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<v Speaker 1>given the closing argument in the case, and he sent

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<v Speaker 1>me a bag as a congratulations gift. And I received

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of other congratulatory gifts after winning the trial

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<v Speaker 1>from other clients and you know, other associates, mister Grant.

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<v Speaker 1>So in short, this gift also did not strike you

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<v Speaker 1>as being odd in any way. Answer, No, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>it was. It didn't strike me as odd coming from him,

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<v Speaker 1>given his wealth and given his general kind of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he was. He was kind of an over the top guy,

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<v Speaker 1>if you know what I mean. And so, yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>whereas I might have gotten a bottle of really nice champagne,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, from another client, this guy sends a Hermes bag.

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<v Speaker 1>This was kind of his This was kind of, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>his thing. Question and one of the main points of

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<v Speaker 1>the committee's investigation is how Epstein and Maxwell surrounded themselves

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<v Speaker 1>with influential people, whether that be other billionaires, people in government,

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<v Speaker 1>people in universities, and well known. Did you ever get

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<v Speaker 1>the impression that, due to your past working in the

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<v Speaker 1>White House Council's Office, being a very prominent attorney, first

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<v Speaker 1>in DC and then in New York, that mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>was trying to provide you with these gifts to keep

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<v Speaker 1>you in his circle and your connections in his circle. Answer.

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<v Speaker 1>I did not believe that at the time. And the

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<v Speaker 1>reason why I didn't not only didn't believe it, it

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<v Speaker 1>didn't even cross my mind. And the reason is that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, when you leave, when you leave the government service,

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<v Speaker 1>which you know some of you may do, at some

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<v Speaker 1>point in time, you start over. And you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I had been the White House counsel us. What that

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<v Speaker 1>was yesterday and here's today. And so I had to

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<v Speaker 1>build a practice, I had to perform well, and I

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<v Speaker 1>had to do the work. And I was a lawyer

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<v Speaker 1>in private practice. I didn't have the ability to, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>do anything special for him. I wasn't. I was never

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<v Speaker 1>even asked to do, you know, I wasn't asked to

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<v Speaker 1>you know, call somebody in government or anything like that.

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<v Speaker 1>And so, you know, in my mind, this was a

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<v Speaker 1>guy who liked to give people gifts, in my mind,

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<v Speaker 1>that were inconsequential to me in the private practice of law,

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<v Speaker 1>but also just in professional services. Generally, people are giving

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<v Speaker 1>each other gifts all the time. As I noted, it's

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<v Speaker 1>either you know, tickets to Knicks games, tickets to the

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<v Speaker 1>US Open was a big thing. You know, it's a

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<v Speaker 1>big thing in New York. You know, trips on private planes,

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<v Speaker 1>rounds of golf, flowers, wine, champagne, you know, all those

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of things. It's very common. And while you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he may have been a little bit extra, it didn't

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<v Speaker 1>seem extra to me in terms of the significance to

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<v Speaker 1>him and might have his you know, wealth, and they

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<v Speaker 1>were just inconsequential to me. And at the time, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I was lucky enough to have been had some success

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<v Speaker 1>in my career, and you know, I was very lucky

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<v Speaker 1>to be well compensated. And there is nothing that he

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<v Speaker 1>ever gave me that I could not have easily paid

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<v Speaker 1>for myself. And as I said, the one thing he

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<v Speaker 1>tried to give me that I just thought was too

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<v Speaker 1>over the top. I said, it's just too over the top.

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<v Speaker 1>I appreciate the gesture, but no, thank you. Question thank

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<v Speaker 1>you for that. Did mister Epstein ever provide you any

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<v Speaker 1>cash gifts? Answer no question. Did mister Epstein ever wire

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<v Speaker 1>you any money? Answer no question. Did he ever provide

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<v Speaker 1>you with any checks? Answer? I don't believe so, no question.

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<v Speaker 1>Did he ever provide you with any gift cards? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes he did, Well, he tried. You know that jet card.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not a card, but that's what they call it,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess, but yes, he gave me Bergdorf Goodman, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a department store in New York gift cards

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<v Speaker 1>at some point. Question and do you recall the value

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<v Speaker 1>of those gift cards? Answer? I don't specifically. What I

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<v Speaker 1>recall about the context is that this notion of me

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<v Speaker 1>having a burdensome travel schedule was a constant topic that

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<v Speaker 1>was raised, right, and a lot of it. I was

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<v Speaker 1>traveling to Geneva a lot during the time, but I

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<v Speaker 1>was traveling all over the world, and he thought that

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<v Speaker 1>I was cheap in traveling, you know, in economy or

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<v Speaker 1>you know, in business class when first class was available.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know this, this one was his unsolicited comment,

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<v Speaker 1>and so at one point he said, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>transfer I don't know whether he said it to me

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<v Speaker 1>or he said it to somebody on his staff, but

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<v Speaker 1>he said, I'm going to transfer American Express points to

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<v Speaker 1>her so that she can use it to travel better,

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<v Speaker 1>to travel in a way you know, I think people

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<v Speaker 1>should travel. And so there was some effort, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>to do that, and apparently I guess they couldn't do

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<v Speaker 1>it or something. And so in lieu of that, he

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<v Speaker 1>sent me these I guess converted those points, those American

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<v Speaker 1>Express points into a Bergdorf Goodman gift cards, and he

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<v Speaker 1>gave them to me. They were sent to my office

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<v Speaker 1>and it just and it wasn't just one, I remember,

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<v Speaker 1>it was multiples, and I think, you know, maybe each

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<v Speaker 1>one was worth like one thousand or five hundred. I

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<v Speaker 1>shared them with a number of assistants in the law firm. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>The AMEX points were actually my next question, So thank

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<v Speaker 1>you for answering that. Also question, did mister Epstein give

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<v Speaker 1>you access to any other perks offered by his an

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<v Speaker 1>American Express black card, such as lounges, airport lounges, the

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<v Speaker 1>AMEX Centurion concierge service, or anything of that nature. Answer

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<v Speaker 1>no question. Were you ever under any healthcare plan of

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein's Answer no question. And I know you mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>denying the private jet card as a gift for mister Epstein.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you recall any other gifts you denied from mister Epstein?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer he offered to fly me on his plane to

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<v Speaker 1>Paris when I had to go to Geneva to present

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<v Speaker 1>to the board in the bank. And he offered to

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<v Speaker 1>fly me to Paris on his plane, and then I

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<v Speaker 1>could from there go on to Geneva. And I declined

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<v Speaker 1>that invitation slash you no gift. Question. Did you ever

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<v Speaker 1>receive any loans from mister Epstein? Answer no question. Did

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<v Speaker 1>you ever request a loan from mister Epstein? Answer no question.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you ever have any loans forgiven by mister Epstein,

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<v Speaker 1>whether they be outside loans that he was willing to

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<v Speaker 1>pay off for you? Answer no, I did not. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>Did mister Epstein ever provide you with any ownership or

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<v Speaker 1>voting rights in any entity of his? Answer no question.

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<v Speaker 1>Did mister Epstein ever provide you with any real estate?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer no question. Did mister Epstein assist you either home

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<v Speaker 1>hunting or apartment hunting. Answer. I was looking for an

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<v Speaker 1>apartment in New York and I was going to see

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<v Speaker 1>the apartment with my broker. And he called me and said,

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<v Speaker 1>when he called you, what he would say is I'd

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<v Speaker 1>say hello, and he would say what's doing? And that

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<v Speaker 1>was his Hey, what's up? He would say what's doing?

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<v Speaker 1>Like what are you doing? And so I said, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to look at an apartment and he goes, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want me to come look at it? I

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<v Speaker 1>said sure, I never purchased real estate in New York before,

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<v Speaker 1>And so he came and looked at the apartment that

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<v Speaker 1>I was looking at and expressed his unsolicit opinion that

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<v Speaker 1>it was not an apartment that I should buy. Question

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<v Speaker 1>did mister Epstein ever ask you for any personal favors

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<v Speaker 1>of any kind? Answer? He asked the only thing that

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<v Speaker 1>I can recall him asking me to. He asked me for,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, referrals to lawyers. I didn't really view that

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<v Speaker 1>as a personal favor. But he asked whether I could

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<v Speaker 1>help to arrange for a white house tour for one

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<v Speaker 1>of his friends. Question that's actually my next question. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>who is a friend that you set up on a

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<v Speaker 1>white house tour? Answer? It was mister Woody Allen and

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<v Speaker 1>his wife. Question and did you have to use your

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<v Speaker 1>contacts in the White House to set up that tour? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I had a number of contacts in the White House,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I asked one of them whether they would

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<v Speaker 1>arrange a tour from mister Allen and his wife. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Question had you met Woody Allen prior to setting up

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<v Speaker 1>that tour for him? Answer? I had yes. Question and

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<v Speaker 1>were you aware of mister Allen's legal history when making

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<v Speaker 1>these arrangements? Answer his legal history questions, specifically his widely

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<v Speaker 1>publicized sexual abuse allegations. Answer. I was aware of, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>public reporting that had occurred. I believed I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>whether it was the nineties or two thousands, but I

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<v Speaker 1>was aware that there, you know, had been controversy around

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<v Speaker 1>mister Allen. Sure. Question did that controversy ever cause concern

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<v Speaker 1>to you at all? Answer? Well, I mean he was

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<v Speaker 1>one of, you know, the iconic comedic directors. I certainly

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<v Speaker 1>had watched many of his films. One of my favorite

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<v Speaker 1>films to this day is Annie Hall. My favorite actress

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<v Speaker 1>is Diane Keaton. I knew that, you know, Diane Keaton

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<v Speaker 1>had given really you know she had at some point

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<v Speaker 1>given a very you know, heartfelt tribute to mister Allen,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was very happy to help arrange a white

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<v Speaker 1>House tour, which I had done for hundreds of people

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<v Speaker 1>over the years, for him and his wife, just to

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<v Speaker 1>you know, see the white House. Wait. I thought she

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<v Speaker 1>just said she had no contacts anymore. I guess she does,

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Holand just jumping back in for a moment. Why

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<v Speaker 1>did you say you denied the offer from mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>to take the trip on his private aircraft. Answer? Because

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't want to sit on an airplane and talk

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<v Speaker 1>with him for eight hours. I wanted to go on

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<v Speaker 1>the plane, put the mask on, my sleeping mask, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, go straight to Geneva and try to get

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<v Speaker 1>some sleep on the overnight flight. It was as simple

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<v Speaker 1>as that. Question. Did mister Epstein attempt to compensate you

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<v Speaker 1>for setting up that White House tour for mister Allen? Answer? No,

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<v Speaker 1>And you just asked he knew that mister Allen and

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<v Speaker 1>his wife were going to be in Washington, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>was it possible for them to get a White House tour? Question?

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<v Speaker 1>Did mister Epstein ever personally himself ask you to gain

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<v Speaker 1>access to the White House in any way, whether for

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<v Speaker 1>a tour or a meeting or anything of that nature.

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<v Speaker 1>Answer no. Question, and this was touched on briefly in

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<v Speaker 1>previous hours. But were you ever formally retained as a

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<v Speaker 1>lawyer for mister Epstein? Answered no, I was not. Question

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<v Speaker 1>never signed any legal binding agreement to provide legal service?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer no, I did not. Question by mister Emmer, Just

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<v Speaker 1>to follow up on the gifts. Are you aware of

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein giving anyone else similar gifts that you received? Answer

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<v Speaker 1>I knew that he had given gifts to our shared client.

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<v Speaker 1>Again that I would haircut, you know, handbag, sweater, you

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<v Speaker 1>know those kinds of things. Question did anyone ever express

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<v Speaker 1>being uncomfortable with the gifts that they were receiving from

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein? Answer I never heard any expression of any discomfort.

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<v Speaker 1>Question And you referenced previously that it was common that

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<v Speaker 1>you'd receive gifts. You specifically mentioned trials, right, Is that right? Question?

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<v Speaker 1>It's common to receive gifts in the professional services world,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I received many gifts from clients and other associates,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, professional associates during my years in private practice,

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<v Speaker 1>as did my partners. Question approximately how many gifts would

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<v Speaker 1>you have received from professional acquaintances or clients worth more

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<v Speaker 1>than five thousand? Answer? I don't know that I can

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<v Speaker 1>quantify it, and I don't know that I can specifically,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, tell you about specific value. You know, there

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<v Speaker 1>are certain let's say, you know, concerts or something that

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<v Speaker 1>you might get invited to where the face value of

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<v Speaker 1>the typic typically you would get. You know, you might

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<v Speaker 1>get invited to a box, right, and the face value

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<v Speaker 1>of the ticket could be many thousands of dollars. I recall,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, receiving a Chanel necklace from a daughter of

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<v Speaker 1>a client that I actually viewed as a very personal

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<v Speaker 1>because it was something that I knew she had personally

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<v Speaker 1>taken the time to find, something that she really believed

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<v Speaker 1>was like, you know, consistent with my style and that

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<v Speaker 1>I would appreciate. I don't know how i'd value it. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>and I believe that I asked you if others around

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<v Speaker 1>you were uncomfortable with gifts. But for the record, were

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<v Speaker 1>you ever uncomfortable with gifts that you were receiving from

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein? Answer? The only gift that I was uncomfortable

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<v Speaker 1>about receiving because I thought it was excessive was the

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<v Speaker 1>jet card, but the other ones, no, mister Grant. That'll

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<v Speaker 1>wrap up our second hour. We'll go off the record,

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<v Speaker 1>all right, folks. We're going to wrap up right here,

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<v Speaker 1>and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to pick up where we left off. All the

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<v Speaker 1>information that goes with this episode can be found in

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<v Speaker 1>the description box.