Speaker 1: Welcome to the Atheist Experience Katheis callin Show, where the
phone lines are always open and unlike God, we actually answer.
If you're new to the channel, here's how things usually go.
Caller number one tells us that the universe can't exist
without God, right before their bluetooth mysteriously cuts out. Call
the number two swears that prayer cured her cousin's toenail
fungus and somehow that proves the resurrection of Jesus. Caller
number three just wants to scream, repent and read John
three point sixteen and then hang up. Twenty nine years
of these callers who believe they were sent by God
to prove us wrong, but not a single one has
given a viable argument for God. For some reason, God's
mysterious plan looks suspiciously like these callers are being set
up for an episode of punkd or they're all experiencing
concussion protocol. So buckle up, grab your popcorn, get ready
to watch believers try to explain why their creator of quasars,
black holes, and the entire cosmos cares more deeply about
what you do with your weekend and your genitals, but
not about the three million children dying from starvation every year.
The lines are open and the show starts. Now. Welcome everybody.
It is August thirty first, twenty twenty five. I am
your host, justin. You might know me as Deconstruction Zone elsewhere,
and I'm joined by the finder of fallacious arguments, the
punisher of presuppositions, and incubator for intelligence, and the champion
of Cathonic wisdom, Jim Burrows. How you doing, my friend, Ah,
not too bad.
Speaker 2: How you doing? Justin your checks in the mail by
the way, Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that
I needed that today, so absolutely well.
Speaker 1: Jim has been It's been a little bit a couple
of weeks, maybe two months or so since we got
to share a screen, so I'm excited.
Speaker 2: I am too. It's always fun. It's always nice to
have someone with such a deep knowledge of the Bible
sitting next to me. So between the two of us,
I think we can get most of the topics covered.
Speaker 1: So it works out for the both of us, because
the last time I went deep in these subjects, my
date walked out on me and didn't call me back.
So at least somebody will listen to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, because I always learned something when
I listened to your live streams, and so it's like,
oh shoot, I got it to get my notebook out
start taking notes because I just don't know the Bible
that well, and I think you actually read the old Hebrew.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I took classical Hebrew when I was in
Bible college and seminary, but seems like a long time
ago now. I graduated, I think in twenty ten. I'm
actually just now starting to take next week my first
class in modern Hebrew. I didn't take any modern Hebrew,
so I'm going to be doing modern Hebrew, and it's
specifically a class for spoken modern Hebrew. I'm hoping to
be able to get good enough at speaking it that
I can go onto like an archaeological excite in Israel
and do something some actual archaeology.
Speaker 2: That'd be cool.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty excited.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's for English anyway, and Italian because
I used to read on a regular basis old fencing
manuals from the fourteen to fifteen hundreds and trying to
figure out, well, I don't speak Italian at all, so
I'm trying to do some of those translations. Is entertaining,
but just doing the English ones, it's amazing how much
the language has changed just in the last hundred years,
and so going back to something like ancient Hebrew has
just got to be a struggle to do that, just
and translate in your head, because there they might as
well be foreign language. I'm guessing at that point because
Middle English is almost a foreign language, so.
Speaker 1: It's certainly something I would say this. You know, the
one good thing about classically Hebrew, it was different than
when I had to learn Greek. Like the joke was,
in Hebrew, you've got one word that can mean ten things,
and in Greek you've got ten words that all mean
the same thing. So you have to learn a lot
less words in Hebrew. You just got to get good
at conjugating.
Speaker 2: Okay. And I have a friend of mine who said
that Chinese is the same word pronounced slightly differently.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I believe that.
Speaker 2: And all of those are apparently easier to learn than English,
because somebody once described English to me learning English to
me is a language that chased other languages down in
back alleys and beat them over the head to steal
their words.
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, they still their sneakers and then
remove the laces and more what's left.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that fits an accurate description. And our conjugations
are almost by accident if they make sense.
Speaker 1: So yes, yes, yes, yes, that's all. It wasn't true.
I remember being young person learning like English grammar and
things like that, and like, well, because that's how from
the language we stole it from. That's how it's done.
But why why can't we do it based on the
language grammar we have.
Speaker 2: But what we do is the language and grammar we
have everybody else. That's true.
Speaker 1: Let's job some announcements, and I think we've got a
call in the screening room right now. If you're watching
and you're like, look at these two dumb dumbs on
screen that don't believe in my God, let me tell
you why my God exists. Call on in. The number
is on the screen and down here at the bottom
bar you'll be able to find it a call in,
and we'd love to talk to you. Want to hear
about your God. Doesn't matter what God concept, it is
certainly no problem at all. But I'm going to read
some announcements and then I think we've got one or
two super chats and then we'll get our first caller, hopefully.
The atheist experience is a product of the Atheist Community
of Austin, a five oh one c three nonprofit organization
dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,
and the separation of religion and government. Which I feel like,
of those things, the separation of religion and government, we
need so much.
Speaker 2: We need so much of it, amenci brother, justin preach it.
Speaker 1: The irony is so thick because the idea of the
separation of church and government started as like a really
strong Reformation idea, Like the early Anabaptists were like, no, no, no, no,
we need to separate the church and the government. In fact,
one of the seven confessions of early Anabaptism was that separation.
They wouldn't even serve in the government.
Speaker 3: And can we go back to that, I know, I know,
like or at least can we stop the people who
say that, you know, the Bible verses that talk about
treating the foreigner within your borders.
Speaker 2: Well, I am now hearing them say, well that means
because that's only applies if you have strong borders. Like
a fuck cheese my language. Did you hear that, where
is that in the Bible? At least at least read
the book right, at least read the New Testament and
be the hippie dippy Jesus that's in there.
Speaker 1: I made it up three sixteen.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. Let's let's not be the Jesus Christ that
the apparently the certain certain parties appear to think is
there and it's not.
Speaker 1: You know, well, we've got one super chat. Actually it
looks like a super thanks from our friend Larry Beck. Larry,
we really appreciate the ten dollars super thanks big w.
I didn't see a message with it, but thank you
for being here. It's great to see your friend. And
it looks like we've got a caller in the call
Q Chris, an atheist from Pennsylvania, wants to discuss the
mindset of Young Earth creationism. We've got one in the
screening room who has an argument that evil proves God
is evil, but also that God exists, which I got
to be honest, that sounds interesting when when when that
call gets out of the screening room, I'll be intrigued
to find out how they can prove that an evil
God does indeed exist. Although to be fair, Jim. I
think if if there's a god that exists, I feel
like it has to be evil given the state of affairs.
Speaker 2: Well, he can't be omnip or omnimment I won't. He
can't be all three. Right, we know that that god
is the triagomny God is logically impossible with However, you
want to define evil, and I know you prefer suffering.
I prefer evil, and I don't care how you define evil.
So that's how I get around you know, what do you?
How do you define you? I don't care you define it?
You think it exists? Do people do bad things? Yes?
They do, but there's no supernatural reason for it. So
I think the first thing anybody who's got to do
is prove the supernatural exists. Good luck with that. We
have two thousand eight justin as God.
Speaker 1: Yes, Maryland, crazy to see you today, friend.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to start with the basics. Can you
prove that the supernatural exists? If you're going to client
that evil as a supernatural force exists, now, if you're
going to find evil as the bad things we do, well,
then yes evil exists because we know humans do bad things.
Speaker 1: And fun fact before we bring in Chris, people really
want to demonstrate that God doesn't do evil things. But
interesting thing is, in the Hebrew the word for typically
for evil or for bad is roughly the same, so
roden Hebrew. There's a couple of ways that you could
use other words, but really means the same thing, evil
and badness. In fact, when God in Second Samuel twenty
four is slaying seventy thousand Israelites because David took a
census of the people, David says to stop the evil
that the Angel of Yahweh is doing. So it's you
can't really make a good linguistic claim that God isn't
the author of evil because he says he created it,
and also because he clearly does it in the book.
But let's bring in Oh, sorry, what's up.
Speaker 2: I was just going to say that having people commit
genocide for you is evil, telling, you know, doing the
whole psych thing, go kill your son for me, psych.
Don't that's evil? Right? I'm sorry, It's just that that
is not good, and intentionally inflicting PTSD on people because
you're sending them to war because you got cranky, that's
not right either.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, pretty much, let's get Chris into the conversation.
Christ from Pennsylvania, Welcome in. Can you hear Jemini?
Speaker 4: Yes so I can.
Speaker 1: Awesome, we can hear you.
Speaker 2: Chris.
Speaker 1: What's in your mind? He says, you want to discuss
the mindset of Young Earth creationists or did you want
to discuss like a particular argument from Young Earth creationism.
Speaker 5: Well, I growing up, I deconstructed over about ten years now,
A big fan of your Deconstruction Zone.
Speaker 4: You really do some great work.
Speaker 5: But anyway, I remember going to a seminar and it's
just the science stuff that they try to do. It
becomes so convoluted, Like the geological layers they all say
they like back at it, claimed that like oh, after
the flood, everything was a slurry and the denser stuff
and the ledger stuff, that's what makes it and that's
what makes it happen so quick and whatever whatnot. You know,
really twisting like you're not trusting radiocarbon dating. It's just
you know, and then you have like the stuff like
the art experience where they think that dinosaurs are on there.
You know, it's just it's just nuts to me, that's all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when you talk about their mindset It
depends on who you're talking about. I think most Young
Earth creationist Christians are just getting their stuff spoon fed
to them. They're not actually critically thinking about it, and
they don't have the time, i'm uh, nor the spoons
to do so. But if you're talking about something like
Kenham or some of these other organizations, I think at
this point they're actively lying because they've been refuted so
much online. People have posted so many papers refuting what
they're saying online, you know, peer reviewed papers and stuff
like that, that they have to know they're either deliberately
they're they're deliberately ignorant or lying, and you know, either
way it's just not good. But so again it depends
on I don't want to paint with you brought a brush,
because you know, we're all we're all human beings and
we're all a little bit different. But I think that
you know, if you wanted to put put this stuff
into categories, you've got the folks who believe believable because
that's what they're told by people they trust. And then
you have the people that have trusted people who are
most likely actively lying at this point.
Speaker 5: Well, and then here's another topic too, real quick. But
Justin's video, uh, I guess it was like last week
or so. And I commented because the topic was original
sin and why everything's deformed or just like sickness.
Speaker 2: Happens or whatever.
Speaker 5: But like I actually had a person I was in
a rehab and.
Speaker 4: I have Krohn's disease.
Speaker 5: So he told me that CROs happened because of because
of Adam and Eve's original sin. Okay, and I stopped
believing that, like a long.
Speaker 4: Long time ago.
Speaker 5: And it's just like just the mindset of these people
and how you know, if I were to believe in
God and God gave me Crohn's disease and for a purpose,
it would drive me nuts. When I stopped believing it
figured out, you know, stuff just happens, I can definitely
live a more peaceful life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Condemning somebody just because they were born before they
have a chance to act and calling them evil and
bad before they have a chance to actually prove themselves
to me, is just wrong and evil. I don't know,
what do you think, Justin?
Speaker 1: So, like I understand that Christian's needs a reason to
explain the suffering, like the diseases and all that nonsense.
But if the if suffering and diseases or like natural
disasters and whatnot, if those aren't entirely necessary for God
to accomplish whatever goodness his end goal is, then then
it still falls in the bucket of unnecessary suffering. Right,
And as far as I'm concerned, causing someone to suffer
unnecessarily breaks this idea of being completely just and being
completely good and benevolent. So, like, you just can't have
a God that causes unnecessary suffering unless you're willing to
abandon that particular notion of God. If you're willing to
abandon the idea that God is good, willing to abandon
the idea that God is just, then you can get
to a point where the world that we see around
us mirrors some kind of a deity figure. But at
that point, if, like, if God is evil, then who
gets a shit? I ain't gonna worship that guy, and
why would he care? If I'm what do I get
by worshiping that guy? I have to trust that evil
deity that he's going to do the right thing if
I worship it as ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if your God is omnipotent, all suffering is
needless pretty much, not only yea, but.
Speaker 5: The science of everything, like you know, everything coming from
Adam and e or like all the animals on New York.
Speaker 4: Everything would be incests to.
Speaker 5: Make everything happen.
Speaker 6: It just doesn't make sense. And so I don't.
Speaker 5: Understand how people can believe that.
Speaker 4: That's all.
Speaker 5: So I'm not going to take up too much more
of your time, but that's all I wanted to really say.
And then another thing on the algorithm of the YouTube,
there's a lot of people speculating that the raptures come
in and the end times and then they're they're they're
putting out like the timelines.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just like last decade and the decade before that,
in the decade before that, in the century before that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, you know exactly.
Speaker 2: It's nuts how the End Times of Prince that Jesus
Christ as a supernatural entity didn't exist, right, because the
End Times haven't happened. They're supposed to happen in his lifetime,
so and they didn't. So guess what he was wrong?
Speaker 5: Yeah, People, people thinking that they can predict it all
the time is just like nuts to me, you know, like, oh, yeah,
this is gonna happen.
Speaker 4: It's going to happen, and.
Speaker 2: Despite the Bible telling them that you can't predict it,
if I'm not mistaken, justin, I don't know if I
quoted that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So yeah, the Bible's tough because like Jesus clearly says,
no man knows to dan or their hour, only the Father.
But the problem is he also does give a hard
cut off in Matthew sixteen saying that some of you
standing here will not taste death until you see some
men coming, and then Matthew twenty four says roughly the same,
this generation will not pass away until all of these
things happened, I mean the signs of the end and
Jesus coming back with all the angels to judge. So
like you get this weird dichotomy where his Bible was like, well,
we don't know when he's going to come back, and
then Jesus like, well we know kinda like I'm going
to come back before this and this, right, But obviously
Jesus didn't know either because he was wrong. So what
you can do.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you, Thank you, guys. I appreciate it, and
I appreciate.
Speaker 1: Shore them always tuning in you guys, have a good
night at cheers, you have a good one.
Speaker 5: Thanks.
Speaker 1: We got next. Someone going by the name Fireman should
be fun says claims that evil proves the God of
the Bible exists, So we're going to get firemen next.
Before we do that, let me grab the announcements and
then Fireman, you're up next. Please like the video and
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for that.
Speaker 2: And then the one crew that's not on there is
is Justin, who does not you Justin, but another the
other one that does all of our email and handles
all of our email coming in. And if you think,
imagine how bad the callers that don't make it have
to be, and then realize that the email folk are
worse because we used to do that before. They push
it all the way over to him, and he's got
some folks working with him now too, but those folks
take quite the beating as well.
Speaker 1: So I can imagine you and I both know that
the keyboard warriors, the ones that aren't willing to get
on screen, there's no limit to what they'll say because
they don't think anyone's going to do anything about it,
or no one's going to hear it because of the
private correspondence.
Speaker 2: Right exactly.
Speaker 1: Let's let's get Fireman from Texas aptly name. I assume
it's still hot down there. Fireman. Your claim is that
evil or the existence of evil proves that the Bible
God exists, And it's an interesting claim. I'm intrigued at least.
The first question I would have though, is do you
believe that the Bible Bible is true or do you
just believe that the Bible God exists and there's like
other gods too.
Speaker 4: Well. No, I believe that the Bible is the truth,
not not any other. That's the reason why my claim
that I believe that evil exists according to the Bible.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you do believe that the Bible is true,
you only believe in presumably the one true God, then.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe that's the one you've got, the God
of the Holy Bike.
Speaker 1: Okay. And your argument is that the existence of evil
in fact does prove that the Bible God is real.
Speaker 4: Yes, And with that being said, do you.
Speaker 1: Believe that the Bible? Do you believe that the Bible
God is good or evil?
Speaker 4: That he's good?
Speaker 1: But I believe that, okay, so he is good?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well, listen, I know the Bible says he created everything.
That seems pretty apparent from Isaiah forty five. So go
ahead and give me the argument for why the but
you think the Bible God is true, and we can
we can go down that road together.
Speaker 4: Well, I heard you earlier saying that the Bible itself
and God was doing you may be considered evil. So
I would like to ask you if no religion, let's say,
if no religion exists, which you still say that things
are evil and bad. Let's say that the world the
same way it is, you know, with no religion, but
you still make the claim that things are evil, good
and bad or right and wrong.
Speaker 2: It sounds like you weren't actually listening to what we
said because you know the answer to that question already.
So you know the answer is, we've already said that
evil is a supernatural force does not exist. But people
do things that are wrong and that do cause harm,
whether intention or accidentally, and so yes, in that respect,
evil does exist. So if you're going to say evil exist,
I'm going to assume that you're making a supernatural claim,
that supernatural evil exist, demon Satan and all that garbage.
Speaker 4: No, not really, I'll explain to you what I mean now. Now,
human humans, we're not their only life on earth? Correct,
They're the other life on Earth.
Speaker 2: Yeah. With that being said, yep, were you.
Speaker 1: Under the impression that atheists didn't believe other things existed
besides humans?
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, I'm I'm just setting up my argument,
you know, so we all we can certainly agree then
humans right, Okay, so humans are not their only life
on earth. They're also animals insects now, But that could
we make could we make the claim in the animal
kingdom or the insect that something to see evil?
Speaker 1: So again, when we say evil, we don't believe in
evil the same way you believe in evil. Right, So
when we say evil, we just mean it's bad or
it's negative, and that's inherently a subjective measure like, there
are things that I think are bad that some people
might not realize or might not agree are bad. Right,
So we're not making objective claims. We're making subjective claims.
You're the one that probably believes in objective morals, not us.
But I think the question I would have for you
is can you show me where the objective morals are?
Speaker 2: And I would just like to add that we see
in bacteria, bacteria strengths when they start cooperating and they
that another strain is cheating, they will actually stop cooperating
with that strain. And so we see any type of
social animal having some sort of the same morals we have,
because if you're going to hunt together as a pack,
you have to trust that your pack mates aren't going
to turn you into food. So there has to be
that kind of basic minimum trust. And we see that
in nearly every social species that I'm aware of, we
see some level of moral behavior or behavior we would
call moral. So the answer your question is, yes, social
creatures tend to have morals more or less than we do.
We're probably to some extent the only ones who talk
about it as much as we do, but you know,
we see it in dolphins. We see it in horses,
we see it in dogs, we see it in all
the great apes, and the chimpanzees. We see it in,
like I said, every social species.
Speaker 4: So okay, now I have heard the argument is that
we are we are just animals. Every life on Earth
is really no separation and no different This is an
argument I've seen to hear that we are all animals. Yeah, right,
Is that something that age would say that we're just
animals going to Earth like any other ses?
Speaker 2: Are we are highly social animals? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think it's important to not mischaracterize what
we're saying. We are animals, but we're not saying that
we're just like every other animal. I think every animal
has kind of its own unique features. And one of
the unique features we have our higher level of cognition
where we can do like pretty abstract thinking on moral concepts,
whereas I think other animals lack the cognitive ability to
do the same type of abstract thinking about morals. I
think they're more instinctual. So I think that's the thing
that sets us apart for the moral argument.
Speaker 4: Now, now, and you know what, I don't want to
use the word moral good or bad. I want to
stick to ease because that's more to the point. Now, well, right,
I'll put it in. I'll put it in a question
for why I didn't.
Speaker 1: Hear the word that you said. You want to stick
to what the word evil instead of moral evil?
Speaker 5: Bad?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay, So this is why in the conversation are you
using the word evil to mean bad?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 4: Yes, because you know you will say that mold animals
have mold, but you still have I proved that there's evil.
Speaker 2: I didn't say animals have morals. I said animals behave
in ways we would call moral. That's two completely different things.
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, well i'll put this in the poses as
a question to question to you why is evil only
relegated to human time and not other animals like dog, cats,
lions in the jungle? Why can't we.
Speaker 2: Again, I don't think you're listening. I don't think you're
listening at all to what I said, and you're not
actually interpreting. So I want you to hear me again.
Animals have behaviors that we interpret as moral, which means
they also have behaviors that are immoral, as we would
consider immoral as well. So you know some chimpanzees have
sexual assault as part of what they do and how
they procreate. Others don't. So yes, and you will see punishments.
You'll see wolves who get thrown out of the pack,
same thing with all social animals. So evil what you
call evil, and I'm assuming you're not meaning supernaturally when
you're saying bad actions, bad behavior happens across the spectrum,
and that's expected from an evolutionary point of view. We
don't expect every animal to act the same or every
animal within a species to have the same behavior, just
very common sense of behavior. So if you listen to
what I'm saying and you actually try to interpret, you'll
see that you have already answered your question. But I
hope that answers it.
Speaker 4: So would it be safe to say that you believe
that evil exists amongst animals and insect too?
Speaker 2: Bad behavior exists, Evil is a supernatural force. Again, if
you're calling evil simply bad behavior, then yes, evil exists.
If you're considering evil to be an uh a supernatural force,
then no.
Speaker 4: Okay. Now let me make sure it are penalty for
the evil amongst mankind. If I, if I, if.
Speaker 2: I with animals, same with animals.
Speaker 4: All right, so you're turning me a thelion. I'm not
talking along social social construct.
Speaker 2: In fact, I have already stated and I don't think
you heard me, Let me state it again. We have
shown that two strains of bacteria that are cooperating, if
one of them detects the other strain is in fact cheating,
it will stop cooperating with that behavior at a bacteria level,
single cellar organism level. And we see the same thing
all the way up through. In fact, we'll see different
species of predators also cooperating and stop cooperating also within species.
So yes, we see the same range of moral behavior
or behavior that we will call moral and im moral
throughout everybody. I don't know how many times I have
to say that. Why you keep questioning this, But it's
throughout the entire all animal kingdoms.
Speaker 4: Yes, so there are consequences if another special killed another.
See you're talking about bactery.
Speaker 2: But did I just say that animal kingdom? Did I
just say that?
Speaker 4: But listen, No, we didn't talk about animals though you
talking about bakka.
Speaker 2: I've been talking about animals the entire time. What have
you been talking about? Have you not been listening?
Speaker 4: So you're saying that align with face consequences that you killed.
Speaker 1: No one said that.
Speaker 2: I didn't say that. Now, I did say that that
some species of predator. I did say that some species
of predators cooperate and there'll be consequences that they violate
those cooperation rules. And it's also within the species. There
is no moral behavior between species, right, that we see
very often unless they're cooperating in some way. Now, prey
animals will also cooperate, where a prey animal will in
fact alert other prey animals, And we also see some
prey animals will cause an alert just to get the
competing price species to move on so they can get
access to the food or water source themselves. So we see,
we do see some things like that, but it's you know,
we see that all the way through.
Speaker 4: So right, So once you admit that morals and all
of these bird and bad, right and wrong depends on
where you are on the airth or would you what
would you guess more?
Speaker 6: All?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a subjective opinion of the behavior. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1: Also keep in mind what we said earlier, which is
that our ability to behave and react to moral behavior
is comparable to our ability to think abstractly. Right, So like,
there are certain animals who don't have deep moral codes
because they have almost no abstract thinking.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: The more high level intelligence you're able to obtain as
a species, the deeper your language evolves, the deeper your
moral systems and social structures evolve. And therefore we would
expect that human beings have a much more intricate moral
structure than say, like a lion or a gazelle.
Speaker 7: So, ultimately, what was right and wrong and evil in that?
Speaker 4: It's just your opin right.
Speaker 1: I started by saying that you wasted a half hour
to get that conclusion. We would have given you that freely.
In fact, we did. So, Like, there's no objective right
and wrong? And want me to show you? Want me
to demonstrate why that's the case. Yeah, So if I
asked you, is it is it always in all cases
objectively immoral to sexually assault a woman?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I would say, is there ever.
Speaker 1: A case ever where it would be acceptable? I don't think, say,
is there ever a case where if a criminal did
a crime that we would punish the person by having
them cannibalize their own children?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: Okay, so those would be objectively evil right, right.
Speaker 4: And this is just at the end of the day,
it's still just vi opin.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well then you're agreeing that, So then you're agreeing
that you only have subjectives because the reality is both
of these two things are items that God himself does
and instructs other humans and invokes other humans to do.
What do you what do you remember of the David
and Bathsheba incident?
Speaker 4: I remember being that David David.
Speaker 1: Ebo, right, What did he do?
Speaker 4: He had a man killed and took his wh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you nailed it, right, And so what did God
respond with? What punishment did he respond with? For David?
Speaker 4: He cursed his family. He recurs born with a guy
that was striped in his family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the first born to Bathsheba that died was
made sick for a week, then it was dead. And
then the secondary punishment was he had david wives taken
from him and sexually assaulted and says thus, say, it's
the Lord. I will raise up trouble against you from
within your own house, and I will take your wives
before your eyes and give them to your neighbor. He
shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. For you
did it secretly, but I did this thing before. All
is in broad daily. But you just told me there's
no good reason ever for a woman to be intentionally
sexually assaulted.
Speaker 4: No. No, now you're asked.
Speaker 1: Me, so, did God do evil or good?
Speaker 4: You created that?
Speaker 7: Right or wrong is an opinion.
Speaker 4: So now if you asked me if some a mass shooting,
somebody just did imagine, you just.
Speaker 2: Made that God is good. You just you just made
the claim that God is good. We're asking you, in
the light of what Justin just said, to defend this
concept that God is good and that morals are objective
because your God just acted in an moral way. According
to what you just said, You've agreed that your God
is good. You've agreed it sexual assaults is bad. And
yet here we have your all good God ordering something
you think is bad. Defend it, all the people to
be killed.
Speaker 4: So what's your point?
Speaker 1: Do you acknowledge that your God did evil?
Speaker 2: No? No, he created evil, but he didn't do it.
Speaker 4: Now I want to ask you, you.
Speaker 1: Did your God cause that punishment to happen?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Everything? He created everything.
Speaker 1: So so if somebody causes a woman to be sexually assaulted,
are they the cause of the evil God created?
Speaker 2: It all.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, that would have to.
Speaker 1: Be to say again. Okay, So, so God is the
cause of the ten wives of David being sexually assaulted? Right,
so is causing somebody to go sexually assault some women
evil or good?
Speaker 4: Well, it is what it is and the reason why
I'm gonna.
Speaker 1: Thinker is evil or good?
Speaker 2: Though, Yeah, the answer is either evil or good. Not
it is what it is. Quite avoiding. The question is
what you want it to be? Man, I can't say
what it is God is.
Speaker 1: I'm asking what you want it to be? Is it
good or is it evil?
Speaker 2: Evil? Okay?
Speaker 1: So so then God was evil?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 7: Yeah, all right, Yeah, that's all you have to say.
Speaker 1: Question Jesus say that God was evil or good? Because
in Matthew Jesus says that nobody is good except for
the Father.
Speaker 4: Right on? You know, Now let me ask you a question.
Since I answered to it, then we can get back today.
Speaker 7: Now you said early that good evil, h right or wrong?
Speaker 4: But bat is an opinion is a subjective. Now I'm
asking you if somebody committed a mass shooting or something.
Speaker 7: And you asked me was that good or evil?
Speaker 4: Was it right or wrong? And I say it was good?
It was a good thing, and that's my opinion. What
you called me crazy when you said you just saying
it's subjective, right, So what you say, I'm crazy if
I said that it was it was cool and it
was okay for staff. When when it's when it's yes.
Speaker 1: Because just because you're entitled to your opinion doesn't mean
that it's a good opinion. It can still be a
dog shit opinion. Like if I tell you that the
best jelly belly is obviously going to be the lemon
jelly belly and you say, no, I like the puke
flavored jelly belly. Listen, You're entitled the opinion, but it's
a dog shit opinion.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And just just to recap here, you came
in saying that God was good, right, and that you
will prove that God exists, And you said that sexual
assaults is always bad. And we've shown that your God
is evil because your God ordered a sexual assault, ten
sexual assaults at the very least, if not more, throughout
the history of the Bible. So how where are you
going to go from there? How do you how are
you still believing in this or accepting this God as
good if he's doing evil? God can't be good ken
tre you.
Speaker 4: What according to what you see, it's all opinion based
and nobody is just yes.
Speaker 2: And you know what, Your concept of objective moral values
comes from the mind of your God. And one of
the key distinctions between objective and subjective is where does
it exist. If it exists outside of a mind, it's objective.
If it exists inside of a mind, it's subjective. And
guess what, All your morals exist inside the mind of
your God, and it's no better than any humans.
Speaker 4: Here's what you've got to understand.
Speaker 2: So you don't even have objective moral values.
Speaker 4: The whole thing about God is punishment for those bad diseases.
Speaker 2: So according to who's punishing God for the bad decision
of ordering the sexual assault of David's wives?
Speaker 4: Exactly? Okay? If so, if there's no consequence with the what's.
Speaker 7: The rhyme and reason of it all?
Speaker 4: If I murder a person and I don't, that's what
we're asking you get anything.
Speaker 6: What.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to jail for ordering the sexual assault
at ten ten.
Speaker 4: Wives, and there's no evil, all right?
Speaker 2: I was not going to going to jail, and now
there's no evil and there's no right or wrong.
Speaker 4: It's simple.
Speaker 7: You can't get around here now, now, Okay, that's that's show.
Speaker 2: You can't get around the same boat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're mischaracterizing what we've said. No one here is
claiming that there's objective right and wrong other than you.
What we're demonstrating to you is, uh, you don't really
have objective morals, because when we look at the book,
it's full of things that you would classify as immoral,
which means you're using your own subjective framework to judge
an objectively moral action. Like you said earlier that it's
always objectively immoral to do cannibalism. But in Jeremiah nineteen nine,
God makes it happen. He says, I will make them
eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of
their daughters, and they will eat the flesh of their
neighbors in the siege, in the distress with their enemies,
and so on and so forth. So again, you've determined,
using your own subjective rational thinking faculties that cannibalism is wrong,
which means you don't believe in objective morals. You're in
the same boat we're in. You believe in subjective morals.
You only think that you have objective morals when you don't.
Speaker 4: Well, ultimately, I'm saying that there is no objective, there
is no evil and right or own objectively, there's no
yet well objective, I mean objectively, and if we can
agree and we can agree on that, then we can
agree somewhere, and that we.
Speaker 1: Started on that agreement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we started on that agreement. I'm just I'm just
still waiting for you to find your your original statement
that God was good people go to bay.
Speaker 4: I thought you was making the argument.
Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no no no no, no no no.
See once again you're not. You're demonstrating you can't listen,
or at least you can't remember earlier in the conversation
what we actually said, or you're intentionally twisting what we said.
So let's cover this again. Just you're clear, there is
no such thing as a supernatural evil force. There is
such a thing as people acting badly and in in
moral ways, just as there is for every animal behavior
that we label we choose to label moral or im moral.
So that's what we've said. So quick trying to twist
what we say or work on your memory skills.
Speaker 4: Well, and I was just saying, I let you speak
so I could find out. And that's where we disagree.
I don't believe if there's no God, then there is
no good of bed right or wrong or anything. It's
just your old thing. It is how you feel, because.
Speaker 2: They've already agreed to that. Why are you restating stuff
we've already agreed to because we don't disagree with them a.
Speaker 4: Different all right, that's what I'm saying. Maybe we agreeing
on that part. I'm trying to find out because therefore
there there it doesn't matter like open turnment that he
don't whatever over here we consider that could be wrong.
So it depends on where you went and what time
or day to you.
Speaker 2: That's what we've already. We said that when we said subjective.
So why are you going on about this? This is
what we mean by subjectives. Yes, that's what we mean
by subjective. Congratulations, You've you're wasting time going on and
on about things that are subjective. But you said that
God was good, that evil exists, and you said that
if you evil, for God to order a sexual assault,
and then we just showed you where he did. So
you've got a problem with your God being good.
Speaker 4: I mean you did this apocrisy on both that maybe
you're right, but the thing is from hypocrisy.
Speaker 2: There's no hypocrisy on our side. So here you go,
you're either you're either completely you either can't remember what
we've already said, or you're trying to twist it. I
don't know which of those things is going on here,
but there's no hypocrisy on our side. We are incredibly
consistent that all morals are opinion of someone's behavior period
end of conversation, which means it's one hundred percent subjective.
Your morals are also subjective because they come from the
mind of your God. But you think your God is good,
and you have not reconciled for us how this works
in your head.
Speaker 4: Well, you just you just helped me out. You said
that molds good and bad is in opinion, and seek
that's what we can agree. It's only in opinion. If I,
if I, if I step on a roach and kill
that roach, right, it's an opinion all Whether that was
right a row, it's still was a life and I
took the life now.
Speaker 2: And there's an entirely there's a religion called Jaine is
and the thing stepping on insects is a bad thing. Yeah,
and there's there's a religion called Jains and the things
that a stepping on riches is a bad thing. What's
your point? Right? Are you going to admit that your
God is evil and is not all good? Is that
what you're doing? You're admitting that God is nothing more
than an opinion.
Speaker 4: All right, let's say let's say it to day I
become an eight because I believe he is. What I'm
going to say that.
Speaker 7: It is no good, right or wrong or evil, period,
doesn't matter.
Speaker 4: Have a nice day.
Speaker 1: I'm objectively but not somebjectively.
Speaker 2: Yes, just be clear.
Speaker 1: You need to delineate between objective and subjective. We do
believe that there is good and bad, but it's subjectively obtained,
like we have to use our own mind to get
to those inclusion and we can use objective means, we
can use measures, we can use statistics, we can use
things that do actually give us something to like sink
our teeth into. But the reality is we have to
use our minds to get there. And if we have
to use our minds to get there and analyze the situation,
it's still subjective. It's never going to be objective. But
the reality is until somebody can demonstrate that objective morals exist,
I have no reason to believe that they do. Like,
you can complain all you want how you don't like
subjective morals, but it will never make objective morals exist.
You're stuck in the same boat as us. I think
we lost them. I think he ran well.
Speaker 2: Oh it shows you most still online, but let me
refresh and see. Yeah. I think you tried to Micropis
and so yeah, I think to Mike Drop. Too bad
they didn't work for him.
Speaker 1: I'll show you you guys have subjective morals. Oh that's
news to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was also surprised. It always surprises me when
someone says I haven't argument you never heard of before.
It's like, really, dude, do you know how often and
how many people we talked to about this? And how
long you know we as a show have been doing this.
You know, you do hours of live streaming, You talk
to dozens, if you know dozens at least of people
every week, So you've talked to hundreds over your career.
Same here. Do you really think there's now a new argument?
So if you're gonna have if you're going to bring
an argument, try to bring a new one, don't, or
at least find out what the counters are to your
argument and have counters to that before you call it.
Speaker 1: But have you considered maybe you didn't hear the klomb
just right. You need to hear it again.
Speaker 2: I don't need to hear the columb again.
Speaker 1: But what about John three sixteen? I guess you John
three sixteen? At you?
Speaker 2: You could? Yeah, and you know, I'll go find the
verse about donkeys, Donkey, Dixon and semens, so you know, yeah.
But yeah, it's interesting too because we're talking about objective
versus subjective. And once we pick a subjective standard like
human happiness, because human happiness is something we can measure,
it's something we know how to affect. There's a really
good study by Harvard that they've been doing for more
than eighty years now on human happiness and what it
takes to be happiness. So if we choose human happiness
the popular entire population of humans as our subjective standard,
we can now take objective measurements and see how well
a particular action moves us towards the goal of more
happiness or towards towards the anti eagle of less happiness.
We can see how that actually works, whether that action
is by a human uh you know, rockslide, bear, attack,
whatever it is, and we can measure that now, and
so we can have objective measurements of a subjective standard.
I agree, but I thought that was probably going to
be too much for him because he was having trouble
tracking what we were saying and then interpreting what we
were saying.
Speaker 1: So I know it's difficult to track when you don't
listen to what the other person says. That this could
be me. I'm losing it. But let's grab a couple
of super chats and we'll get our next guest into
the box. We've got someone who appears, based on the
call screen to be a gnostic, so this should be fun.
Marylyn send in a super chat. Thank you so much,
Marylyn for five dollars. Maryland says, Justin is God? Well,
I don't believe in God, but listen, we're happy to
have you here, Marylyn. I thought m Douglas and Doug.
Doug and Sharon are looking over us now. Actually you
can see them on the shelf, which is obviously the
Rocks of Ages behind us.
Speaker 2: So right, Yes, those are the spiritualized the Rock of
Ages Sesus with right.
Speaker 1: Obviously, we had another super chat from Jay Langford for
nine ninety nine says thank you. Never stop promoting reality
and listen to Langford. We are with you. That's what
we're here for. We want to promote living in the reality,
not the dream world. And last run from our friend,
Actme Hero. Great to see. Actme Hero says, Jesus fulfilled prophecy.
Prove me wrong, Act Me Hero. Now you're trolling. We're
gonna have words later. Jesus did fulfill prophecies. As long
as by prophecies you mean zero zero prophecies, then we
can come to some form of agreement. Actually, I'll take
that he fulfilled one prophecy. He fulfilled the prophecy in
Deuteronomy thirteen when God said he would send a false
prophet and not to follow him because he's got to
test his people. Of course, but we've got uh, we've
got a theist, not not an atheist, but we have
a theist named Chuck waiting to get in all the
way from Hawaii that says they want people to know
that Jesus is the devil, true God is Jehovah. Chuck
am I am I correct in assuming that you're some
kind of a gnostic or mercy Nite and that this
is you believe in, like the Demiurge and all that nonsense.
Speaker 8: Oh no, no, no, no, no no no, I'm just
talking a god of the Bible, Jehovah. His name is
Jehovahl yhbh. And people, it's not to get rid of
it because because Christians want you to believe that their
god Jesus is the true God, and they want you
to reject Jehovah.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the reality is the Old Testa manuscripts were
written without vowels. The Paleo Hebrew had imply vowel patterns,
and Yahweh, most likely from all scholarly reconstructions, would have
been produced pronounced as Yahweh. This idea that Jehovah is
the real name of God only becomes later. Massoretic scribes
added vowel pointers to the actual name of Yahweh in
order to direct people to say ad deny rather than Yahweh,
as a way of protecting the divine name. If you
read the notes from the Massoretic scribes, this is quite obvious.
This is not something that is like revolutionary news. Anyone
who bothered to learn biblical criticism of the Hebrew Bible
knows this. The name of God is wh yhw h
or w vh, depending on what form of Hebrew you speak,
And it is not Jehovah. That's strictly a false claim.
Speaker 8: Are you a Christian?
Speaker 2: There were both antheater atheists experience. I don't know why
you'd expect us to be Christian's.
Speaker 8: Well, a lot of people you people there used to
be Christians, And.
Speaker 2: I don't know how that responds to anything Justin said.
And I wish you would respond to what Justin just
told you rather than you're trying to go off on
some tangent.
Speaker 8: Exactly, Okay, y h v h is pronounced jah vah.
It's not a not.
Speaker 2: That's not a refutation of anything Justin just told you.
Would you like him to repeat it?
Speaker 1: So to be clear, In classically Hebrew, the viov is
actually a waw. It's pronounced waw, not viv. The v
vocalization is for modern Hebrew. So right off the jump,
Jehovah is not something that would have been in the
vocabulary of the ancient Hebrews. Or so they would have
put a bait in there rather than a wah. So,
right off the jump, you've got a problem. That's not
how to pronounce it. The second problem are the vale pointers,
the vowel pointers that make it Yehovah. Those val pointers
don't exist originally in Hebrew. Those are added later by
Massic scribes, the first of which didn't even exist until
two hundred years after Jesus died. And if you read
the notes from the Masteric scribes, it's not even a question.
The reason why Jehovah appears is because they put vowel
pointers onto the consonants to lead the reader to pronounce
ad deny rather than pronouncing the name Yahweh, as a
protection of the divine name. The same reason and why
the Greek septuagent says Hakirios, meaning the Lord, rather than
the name of Yahweh, the same way the English Bibles
say the Lord all mini caaps rather than saying the
name of Yahweh. These are all conventions to protect the
divine name from being misused or mispronounced.
Speaker 8: Well, the Jews, Jehovah is the God of the Jews.
Speaker 2: And the Jew you restated, you restading your claim is
not responding to the vast knowledge of how he the
Hebrew language works. Did you understand anything about what he said?
Can you? Can you explain what a vowel pointer is
or what a vowel indicator is.
Speaker 8: Yeah, you're just trying to get off the point you're
trying to get off.
Speaker 2: No, that is the point. You're reading the language wrong.
You're reading the language wrong. Listen to Justin and he
will tell you how to properly read the language. So
you know how to properly pronounce the words in Old Hebrew.
Speaker 1: Trust me, like you can just for example, like a
conservative Christian scholar like doctor Michael Brown. Doctor Michael Brown,
he went to school for Semitics, he will tell you
the same thing. Doctor Michael Brown has done this explanation
many times. He's not an atheist, He's not trying to
poison anyone's mind. He's a real Christian, you know, biblical scholar.
So like, I'm not saying anything like ground shaking here.
This is what everybody in the field already knows. So
I don't want to waste the whole call on the
fact that Jehovah isn't the name of God, because I
feel like that's not what you came for. I feel
like what you came for is to explain how Jesus
is actually evil. Jesus is the devil and Jehovah is
the real God. Is that what you wanted to come for.
Speaker 8: Well, that is true. Jesus is the devil. Christians worship
the Satan, the devil.
Speaker 1: So that's the argument I'm curious about. Can you give
me that argument because I'm most interested to hear how
you put this one together? Okay, go here right right?
So where DoD you What Bible support do you have
that would point me towards the idea that Jesus is
in fact Satan Because Jesus refers to Satan in very
negative terms. It seems like he would have like split personality.
And who was he talking to in the desert in
when he's in there for forty days being challenged by Satan?
Is he challenging himself?
Speaker 8: That was probably the devil interrupted him, the devil on
a Mascus, and then took him off into the most
of most of his writings, all most of his writings
about bringing forth religion Christianity, most of it comes from
Hinduism and Hinduism there is one god, Brahmand, but he
is a trinity. So the Christians have a trinity which
is not in the Bill and is not old.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Hindus are not monotheistic by any stretch of
the imagination, too, are a polytheistic or religion by far.
So I just I don't know where you get that
at all. That just seems to be really wack Johnny
out there.
Speaker 8: And Hinduism there is one god, Brahma.
Speaker 1: Just just to be clear. In Christianity, the follow a
long chuck. In Christianity, Satan is the devil. It's explicitly
stated in Revelation twelve nine, in Revelation twenty two, where
it says the great dragon was thrown down that ancient
serpent who has called the devil and Satan. Right, So
the devil and Satan are in fact the same individual.
Speaker 8: There you go, Yeah, they're both the devil.
Speaker 1: When the devil ch challenged Jesus in the wilderness, the
devil was Satan. The devil and the Satan are the
same individual, which means it couldn't be Jesus.
Speaker 6: Sure can't.
Speaker 8: You're talking about you're talking about the son of Mary.
Speaker 6: That is not Jesus.
Speaker 8: His name is Joshua. That's a Christian god.
Speaker 1: Okay, listen, nobody cares how you pronounced the names. None
as that is relevant. Like everybody who's went to like
even like five Bible studies knows that the name Jesus
is multiple transliteration layers away from the actual name of Jesus,
which would have been ye host Show in the long
or Yeshua in the short. No one cares about that.
That's a useless conversation. When I say Jesus, you know
who I mean. So what I'm trying to figure out
is how you're figuring that Jesus, the son of Mary,
the adopted son of Joseph. How you came to the
conclusion that that individual is the same as Satan. That's
what I want to know.
Speaker 8: No, that's not what I said. There are two individuals here.
In the first place, there's the Christian god Jesus. But
on the other hand, there is the son of Mary.
His name is Joshua. His name is not Jesus. These
are two separate individual beings. The one is the son
of Mary, and the other one is the god of
Christianity named Jesus.
Speaker 2: But he's the devil that is Mary, So, Chuck, can
you read the original? Have you read any of this
in the original, in the Greek or the Jewish? I
don't you read read? As the one arguing with somebody
who can't. Justin actually learned how to read ancient Hebrew,
and he's telling you that your pronunciations are wrong. So
why are you what are you basing any of this on?
Because Justin is basing it on scholarship and knowledge of
the language, you appear to be basing this on a
hallucination or smoking entirely too much. I'm jay, I don't
know which. So where are you getting this from? And
why are you arguing with somebody who can actually read
the ancient Hebrew?
Speaker 6: Well, look at the Bible.
Speaker 2: To read the Bible, he is, he's reading the ancient
Hebrew Bible. What part of that did you not understand?
Speaker 8: His name is not Jesus the Son of.
Speaker 2: Again, you're pronouncing it wrong. You're pronouncing it wrong. What
part of you can't read the original language and therefore
can't seem to understand that you aren't pronouncing any of
these names correctly?
Speaker 8: Look at the English Bible. It certainly is.
Speaker 6: We're not.
Speaker 2: No, okay, we're not talking about the English Bible. We're
talking about the original ancient Hebrew.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's back up, Chuck, Let's just back up. Okay.
So the name, the name Jesus is a transliteration from
the Greek, which is is Sue is Sue with a
transliteration from the Hebrew from Yeshua. And there's a lot
of reasons why you end up with an s at
the end of it, because there's nominal endings in Greek
and they don't match the same nominal endings in Hebrew.
That's just a whole different discussion we don't need to have.
So the reality is, when we read Jesus in the English,
we know that this gets traced back to Esue in
the Greek, and it also gets traced back to Yeshua
in the Hebrew. Nobody cares about that argument. That's not
a valuable argument. It doesn't add anything to our conversation.
What I'm trying to figure out is the identification of
this particular individual and how it relates to the Satan figure.
Because what you're trying to tell us is that, first
of all, there's two people that have the named Jesus,
obviously not in English, it's not written in English or
using English. You're saying there's two Jesuses, one of them
is Satan. I want to know where you get this
idea from.
Speaker 6: In Romans, in the Hebrews.
Speaker 1: Okay, take me to the verse.
Speaker 6: In a Christian book.
Speaker 8: I don't know verse, but it says that human sacrifice
This god, Jesus of the devil, Christian God demands human
sacrifice and he says that we only care.
Speaker 2: How do you know Roman says this? If you can't
give us chapter and verse, are.
Speaker 1: You referring to Hebrews nine, the Book of Hebrews, because
something comparable to that shows up in the Book of Hebrews.
Speaker 8: Hebrews is from the Devil too. Hebrews says that there's
no salvation without human sacrifice, without human bloodshed.
Speaker 2: Okay, chapter and verse. Oh wait, you can't give us
chapter and verse. You're literally just are you a troll?
Are you trolling us right now?
Speaker 1: Are you acculating your stuff up?
Speaker 2: That sounds good to see what howell or react? Because
I think that's what you're doing. I can't believe that
someone who apparently has such strong beliefs can't actually give
his chapter and verse and can't actually defend any of
the things that he's saying. I mean, really, dude, you
can do better in this. I'm disappointed, Yes, you are disappointed.
Speaker 8: You're not paying any attention, you're not discussing, and you're
not looking at anything.
Speaker 6: I don't know that.
Speaker 1: You're giving anything to look verse.
Speaker 2: You can't give us chapter and verse to go look at.
And Justin is talking about exactly what you're saying. He's
been saying over and over again. You have no idea
what you're talking about. That you don't understand the ancient
Hebrew and therefore you don't understand where the words come
from that you're pronouncing and why you're pronouncing them wrong.
So we're talking about exactly, we're on point. You're all
over the place. So can you give us chapter and
verse for anything you said?
Speaker 6: Well, in Romans it says.
Speaker 2: Where chapter and verse Romans? What that?
Speaker 8: Do you realize that?
Speaker 6: Do you realize that.
Speaker 1: Romans Romans who did not give him the proper preparation
for this discussion? So, I mean, listen, we know for
a fact that the New Testament Jesus needed to be sacrificed.
No one's questioning that. We know Jesus needs to be sacrificed.
I don't know why that matters.
Speaker 8: Human sacrifices in abomination, not the Christians.
Speaker 1: God demands it.
Speaker 8: We human sacrifice.
Speaker 1: God demands it in the Book of Exodus, and Ezekiel agrees.
Ezekiel agrees that God demanded child sacrifice in the desert.
Speaker 4: What God that.
Speaker 8: Will not demand human sacrifice?
Speaker 2: Hold on, Justin's about to hear about the Bible right
between your eyes.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, we're gonna go to Ezekiel twenty three. I
think we want about twenty four to twenty five about
there in that chapter. Let's see. I think it's Ezekiel
twenty three or is the chapter we want? Yeah, but
give me one second. I apologize. Maybe I typed in
the wrong chapter. I may make sure in chapter.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty five through twenty six.
Speaker 1: Twenty not twenty three. I apologize. That's my faulty memory.
Twenty three twenty five or twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: It's chapter twenty verse twenty five twenty six, I believe
is where you're looking.
Speaker 1: Yes, says Moreover. I gave them statutes that were not
good and ordinances which they could not live. I defiled
them through their very gifts, in their offering up of
their firstborn in order that I might horrify them so
that they might know that I am the Lord. And
it gets worse than that. In Levitico's twenty seven he
demands human sacrifice as well.
Speaker 8: No, that's not true.
Speaker 2: Bible verses. He's reading right out of the Bible. Dude,
do you how can you say?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 2: See, this is the difference between you and Justin. You
can't give this chapter and verse or anything you said,
and Justin's over here giving you chapter and verse for
his clients. So who should we believe? Someone who can't
give us chapter and verse in the Bible or someone
who can.
Speaker 8: Well human sacrifices in a nomination says in the Bible.
Speaker 1: But your God orders It sounds like you've just figured
out that there's contraditions in the Bible.
Speaker 6: That's not what you read.
Speaker 8: You read that you got give your first born to God.
It doesn't say that sacrifice him to you.
Speaker 2: Guys, own, Yes, that's exactly what it means.
Speaker 1: I'll read it again, don't worry. I mean, we can
read it as slow as we need to. We're not
in a rush. If you go to Ezekiel, Chapter twenty
verse twenty five and twenty six. God explicitly states that
he told them to do a thing, and then he
tells them what the thing is. Right, so let me
grab it again after my mosk starts working, says I
defiled them through their very gifts in offering up of
all their first born in order that I might horrify them.
The offering up the firstborn is child sacrifice, which is
rooted in Exodus.
Speaker 8: Ask that guy Brown you were talking about, Ask him
if that's what he says. That God is not here
human sacrifice.
Speaker 1: He's not here.
Speaker 8: Time, but get in touch with him sometimes.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's something he cares to talk about
with me.
Speaker 2: And you're deflecting from the fact that justin just hits
you between the eyes with verse that says child sacrifice,
and you're over here screaming child's human sacrifice is evil,
and yet your God is commanding it. Whichever God you
believe in, it doesn't really matter at this point whether
you think Jesus is the devil or not, because you've
got God over here commanding human sacrifice, which you are
very vocal in saying that it's evil. So now you've
got a problem. Don't you care to try and get
yourself out of it?
Speaker 8: Oh, the Bible does not say that God demands human sacrifice.
That the lie is saying just because of you. If
you give your first born to God, that doesn't mean
sacrifice him.
Speaker 1: It doesn't say off it says that. It literally uses
the same verb in Hebrew bajarbi I'm sorry, baja beer,
which means to pass through the fire. The same thing
Jeremiah accuses them of doing is passing your children through
the fire. Offering up is a gentle English translation. It's
a fire sacrifice.
Speaker 8: No, no, no, yes, crazy, you asked that guy you
were talking about Brown's Brown.
Speaker 2: Has nothing to do with us. We're justins once again
beating you up with knowledge, and he's pointing out that
what the words mean is child sacrifice. Offer up is
just euphemism for child sacrifice.
Speaker 6: It does not You guys are crazy.
Speaker 8: That's that guy Brown, that's any any theologian, anybody, if
God demanded human sacrifice.
Speaker 2: We don't what theologians have to say, because they're going
to interpret whatever way they want to make a theological point.
We're interested in what the words actually say. We're interested
in the context, which is something that you Christians keep
beating us up for is not having the Rite context.
And here we are giving you the context, and you're
just putting sticking your fingers in years ago. Uh right,
you're the guy who can't seem to give us chapter
and verse to to support anything you said. And here
just is not only giving you chapter and verse, he's
also giving you a language lesson. You can stick your
fingers in years ago all you want, but doesn't change
the fact that you're God ordered or wanted desired human
sacrifice A lot change it.
Speaker 8: You're about by Jim, Have you considered Uh yeah, prove it,
Prove that we're lying.
Speaker 2: Prove that anything that Justin has read to you or
told you about the language is wrong. And given your
track records so far, I would I'll set the bar
very low. Can you even get close to telling us
what you are digital?
Speaker 8: Hebrew was a Bible says human sacrifice is an abomination?
Speaker 2: Chapter and verse. Chapter and verse. Please, chapter and verse.
Speaker 8: You're an Why are you worried about versus Bible and
Bible in there?
Speaker 4: Anyway?
Speaker 2: I'm asking you to prove your claim. You can't prove
your claim at all. All you over here doing is
attempting to preach, and we're beating in Justin's over here,
throwing Bible verses at you, hit you between the eyes,
and you're just a stunned ox trying to figure out
what the hell? Where the hell to guess. All you've
got is uh and you're lying and nothing else, which
is what you've had this entire call nothing. You can't
give us chapter and verse for anything you said, everything
we said, We've given you chapter everything Justin said, we've
given you chapter and verse. Can you give us chapter
and verse and prove that we're lying?
Speaker 8: What kind of atheists are you, guys anyway that you're
arguing on the fiber of the Bible.
Speaker 2: No, So it's a yes, it's a yes or no question,
yesterd no question. Can you give us chapter and verse
for anything that you've said?
Speaker 6: Romans? Romans says Jesus is the chapter.
Speaker 2: That's the book. I didn't ask for the book. I
asked for chapter and verse. So good, you got the book.
Where's the chapter in verse? Buddy?
Speaker 6: Kind ofly is?
Speaker 8: Are you guys?
Speaker 1: Anyway?
Speaker 8: You're not?
Speaker 2: Eightius Dodge, dodge, whack and whack you again. We want
you give us the book Romans. We want the chapter
and verse.
Speaker 6: Ah, you're an atheist.
Speaker 8: Why are you worried about verses and the body?
Speaker 2: Because because I think you're making shit up to suit yourself,
and I want you to defend your position.
Speaker 8: Well, the Bible says humans sacrifices demand by the Christian
God and that there is no salvation.
Speaker 2: Chapter and verse. Humans don't give us Romans. Give us
Romans chapter and verse to prove what you're saying. You
keep making the same claims over and over again, and
you keep dodging the question. So I want chapter and verse.
Otherwise everything you say is a lie and you're a liar.
Speaker 1: You guys are crazy.
Speaker 8: You know you're.
Speaker 2: Doing You're dodging again, answer the question. Can you give
us chapter and verse?
Speaker 6: You don't need?
Speaker 2: Are you lying?
Speaker 6: Bible says that Jesus chapter.
Speaker 2: And verse or you're lying chapter and verse or you're lying.
Speaker 8: You guys are crazy.
Speaker 1: Okay for asking you to quote the Bible to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's just gonna keep doing this over and over again.
He has nothing to support any of his clans.
Speaker 1: You control vibes, yeah, kind of sort of. So anyway, Well,
I'm going to ask you one more question, Chuck, and
then we're going to move on to to an adult
that's not in concussion protocol. Did God sacrifice Jesus? Did
Jehovah sacrifice?
Speaker 2: Yes? You will no?
Speaker 1: Okay, just checking, all right? So you don't believe Romans
because Roman says the opposite, says in Romans three twenty five,
God put forward a sacrifice of atonement by his blood
effective through faith, referring to Jesus. So Jehovah's god, Jesus
was a sacrifice.
Speaker 2: The Romans is from the devil. But weren't you just
quoting Romans? Weren't you just quoting We're saying Romans said something,
and now you're saying Romans is from the devil? Wow?
Are you concussed? Both things can't be true, right. You
can't say that Romans says something and then say Romans
is from the devil. It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1: So sacrifice is an abomination until God does it.
Speaker 8: He got you know, you guy, your mental reading there book.
Speaker 2: To you, that's all you've got. Wow, you have nothing.
You're a You're a giant nothing burger of nothingness.
Speaker 1: Is the book of revelation from God. No, from the
book in the Bible is from God.
Speaker 8: All of the writings of all are from the devil.
Speaker 1: So only Paul. Oh, no, Paul, So which ones are
from God?
Speaker 6: The other ones.
Speaker 1: Like the Gospels?
Speaker 2: Oh, don't dude, You don't since the trap the Chuck's
land for or excuse me that Justin's land for you, Chuck.
Do you think there's a Bible version or that Justin
can't quote to you to prove that your God is
not what you think he is and that you are
full of nothing.
Speaker 8: I know Jesus the Devil book from both, Paul.
Speaker 2: But you said that Jesus is the devil because of Romans,
and you said Romans is of the devil. So guess what.
Both things can't be true. Romans cannot be both true
and not true at the same time. That's logically impossible.
And that's exactly what you're claiming. And now that we've
got you, now that Justin keeps firing these Bible bombs
at you, and he keeps exploding your brain into nothingness,
now you're trying to dodge it. Was saying, well, all
the rest of them, because you can't give us chapter
and verse, which means you haven't studied the Bible at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because even the Gospel Mark A thirty one says
that he began Jesus taught them that the son of
man must undergo great suffering and be rejected by the
elders and the chief priests and describes, and be killed,
and after three days rise again. So Mark's not from
God either.
Speaker 6: Mark. Oh, yes, he was.
Speaker 8: He was killed, He was.
Speaker 1: Sacrificed cross.
Speaker 6: He was nailed to the cross.
Speaker 8: And he died sacrificed, but for sin, not a human sacrifice.
Speaker 1: Listen. If he got sacrificed and he's a human, that's
human sacrifice. This is how words are. But listen, we're
running out of time. We've got to uh. I mean,
as enjoyable as this is, we've got a caller who's
been waiting for quite some time. I want to hear
their thoughts before we end the show. But Chuck, listened,
you've been here for twenty eight minutes. I've enjoyed all
one minute of it. I appreciate you calling in. Do
call back. It was a it was if anything interesting,
it was new. As I say, the stuff that came
out of your mouth, these are things that I don't
know if I'll over here.
Speaker 2: Again, and I hope we don't, but if you do,
call back, try and come back with chapter and verse
and try to be able to defend your your claims,
because they're pretty outlandish and they certainly don't jibe with
anything we know about the Bible. So good luck.
Speaker 1: Can you leave that guy's wild?
Speaker 2: He had to have been on something.
Speaker 1: There's something going on there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think he's ever read the Bible honestly,
much less actually studied it.
Speaker 1: So but he did his own research, I'm sure on YouTube.
Speaker 2: If I had to guess, honestly, I don't think it
was even I don't know how you what apology is
to spouting this BS. I'm saying, I'm trying to figure
out where he could have gotten it from, and I'm like,
I have no idea. There's nobody. Yeah, who's who's the guy? Oh? Shoot,
there's there's one sort of kind of apologist. I'm taking
that got smoked by a young Christian scholar and apologist
just smoked, actually pulled things off, pulled copies of the
originals off the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when West cooked Billy Carson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Billy Carson Billy Carson might be a Billy Carson fan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that you're right. That's the type of person that
he probably tunes into. Is like the Billy Carson. These
people are have. It's amazing that anyone listens to them.
They have no idea and it only takes the slightest
bit of pressure for their entire world view to crack.
But I don't know people buy into it. Let's get
Roy from Massachusetts. Roy had a question and wants to
know where in the Bible original sin is even mentioned
as a concept? Roy, Is that about what you're looking
for is figuring out how original sin came to be?
Speaker 9: Yeah, more or less, But don't on me not being
in kind of any kind of a concussion protocol. All
it was worth it just to hear them say the
word sacrifice.
Speaker 4: I think if he calls.
Speaker 9: Back, we can make that a drinking game, all right,
with a change of place. I think I'll make this
an occasion where the caller tries not to talk over
the host. So I hope this doesn't throw you off.
But yeah, your is original sin even mentioned as a
concept for which all of humanity must a tell him?
Speaker 4: I can't find it anywhere.
Speaker 1: So it takes a little bit of triangulation. I think
the first thing you have to look at is start
with the curse in Genesis three, because the curse in
Genesis three applies to basically everything, and that's why Paul
says we have this sin nature. But I think the
typical justification for original sin kind of starts in Romans
chapter five. You go Romans chapter five, Paul says, therefore,
just as sin came into the world through one man
and death came through sin, so death spread to all
because all have sinned. Now Catholics will sometimes kind of
leaf off that last part because all of sin. But
this is kind of where the original sin comes from,
this idea that like there has been like a tainting.
And there's another passage that points to this a little
bit which gets fleshed out later outside of the Bible,
which is this idea that Adam was cursed, Eve was cursed,
and since all of the seeds of all humankind were
in Adam, that means that all of the Adam's seed
became cursed.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So if we go to the Book of Hebrews chapter seven,
there's a really interesting discussion on how Jesus, who is theoretically,
a priest in the order of Milch of the deck
is greater than the priesthood of the Levites. But that
part of the conversation isn't critical. Listen to how the
author of Hebrews justifies how Jesus is great than the Levites,
says even Abraham. This is referring to when Abraham met
Melchizedek in Genesis fourteen, and Melchisedec was blessed by Abraham,
and Abraham gave him an offering. So, considering this particular event,
says even Abraham, the patriarch, gave him a tenth of
the spoils. And those descendants of Levi who received the
priestly office have a commandment in the law to collect
tithes from the people, that is, from their kindred. Through
these also our descendant from Abraham. But this man, who
does not belong to their ancestries, collected tithes from Abraham,
referring to Melchizidek, and blessed him, who had received the promises.
It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by
the superior. In the one case, tithes are received by
one who is mortal and the other by one of
whom it is testified that he lives. One might even
say this is the best part. One might even say
that Levi himself, who receives the hives, paid through Abraham,
for he was still in the loins of his ancestor
when Melchizedek met him. So what they're suggesting is that
because Levi, the entire priesthood of Levi, was in the
loins of Abraham when Abraham blessed Melchizedek, that means that
Melchizedek is greater than Levi. And so this type of
thinking was pervasive in the ancient world, which accounts for
why once Adam and Eve became corrupted, they became defiled.
All of the seed of mankind became defiled. And that's
why through one man came sin, and through another man
came reconciliation and original sin answers one other question, well
more than one, but one other important question, which is
if Jesus died to take the wages of sin. Right,
If the wages of sin is death and Jesus came
to reconcile that and everyone is still dyeing, even babies,
babies who don't sin, that means that they are still
under the weight of original sin. Because if you can
die receive your wages of sin having never sinned, then
it can only mean that whatever the curse was, we
received this curse whether we sin or not. And now
now it's a universal curse, and you've got the curse
of original sin.
Speaker 9: Ah okay, and and also thanks for reminding me because
I hadn't been paying my times lately.
Speaker 4: Illuminating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, thanks for calling in.
Speaker 2: What is Doug's type these days?
Speaker 1: Doug? Doug demands no money. However, however, we do have
some super chats. That's right, get stoned for Doug, all right?
Super Yeah? Can you see the superchests are just me?
Speaker 2: I don't see where that are of my head.
Speaker 1: I've got him, I can. I can run through our superchats.
We've got a ten dollars super chat from our friend
Johnny Moore. Thank you, Johnny, Johnny says, I love you guys.
You don't have to read this out loud. Sorry, you
both have changed my live heartfelt. Thank you, Thank you, Johnny.
Speaker 2: And you know, Johnny, that's great.
Speaker 1: I enjoy getting feedback when people are moved by our work,
don't you. I mean it feels good to hear the
positive feedback.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, without a doubt. And I think it's important
for other atheistso because a lot of the things that
we get is, oh, your calling shows don't actually change
people's minds, And it's like, yes, yes they do, right,
And if you don't, don't believe me. Next time, Dan
is on truth wanted go ask you where he deconverted from,
and it was from AXP And now he's a host
enter ur does it, says those are the best emails
and best calls and best superchats we get is you
changed thing about my life for the better, and hopefully
it's always for the better, and only understand sometimes it
will be for the worst, but hopefully it's always for
the better.
Speaker 1: Indeed, we've got a friend in the chat with a
ten dollar superchat, our friend doctor Joe, thank you so much,
says maybe if Chuck says it more loudly, more sternly,
more confidently and over and over, his twisted bible of
you would be accurate and the rest of us will
be wrong. He should try that.
Speaker 2: Indeed, Yeah, and if he calls us we're crazy enough,
we'll actually believe his his claims, right, so that we're
not crazy. But yeah, no, that's not going to happen.
Speaker 1: And another five from I'm sorry this is I think I'm
out of order. I apologize. I was on Maryland super Chat.
Did I miss a super Chat? I missed Chips. I apologize,
I miss chips, Superchet Chip, thank you so much for
the ninety nine dollars superchat, Chip says, Hey, justin, I'm
in Yellowstone National Park and surrounded by many forms of Sadly,
Doug seems to have no power to boost Wi Fi
or cellular but I stay rock hard for Doug. Anyways,
hope this gets through. It got through, Chip, Yes, by
the power of Doug. May the courts be with you,
my friend.
Speaker 2: Well, Doug, Doug actually stops Wi Fi, so he wants
you to, you know, stop being connected all the time
and and actually focus on Doug and all the form
right ye occasionally throw throw Doug through the air so
that Doug can fly.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, let Doug experience the win in his face. Maryland,
thank you so much for the five dollars super Chat.
Maryland says, tell him, y'all are gods. Prove you're not well? Maryland,
I think by defaults the default position is that we're
not gods until we can be proven to be gods,
because there's like the intilment that we would be gods,
that we would have some kind of powers and.
Speaker 2: Curious ways answer every prayer. But we work in mysterious ways.
We answer in our own way, and sometimes the answer
is no. So keep in.
Speaker 1: Mind that a non answer is an answer, ignoring is
an answer. Yeah, I am. And last one from Roger,
thank you so much, Roger for the finot of Supertest,
says thank you for a great show. Well, Roger, thank
you for supporting the channel. The ACA has been doing
this I think twenty nine seasons now. It's unbelievable how
much material and work the ACA has put out, Like
there's I don't know if you would ever run out
of material, Like if you're ever bored and you want
to hear ACA content, you could sit down and listen
and you'll, like you'll your hairline will be back three
more inches by the time you've finished it. So, I mean,
there's a lot of great content out.
Speaker 2: There, and it's presented by some earlier great hosts from
the past and will be you know, in the future too, hope.
So you know at some point we'll both stop doing
this and go somewhere else. But yeah, this is twenty
and yeah it is almost thirty years now, and we
got started. We were public access. We're public access, and
people were calling in from Austin. So you see some
really great hosts and some really really interesting tables occasionally.
Speaker 1: So indeed, since Aron host, let's bring up our good
friend Scott, who is backing us up today. Our backup
post is Scott. I'm curious to know what Scott thought
about the conversations. There's a lot of meat on the
bone there, Scott. How do you feel? Yeah?
Speaker 10: It was really interesting. You know, I just want to ask,
what kind of atheists are you? I mean, how dare you?
How dare you know more about their books than they do?
Just it's just I think you're atheisting all wrong apparently.
Speaker 2: I don't know off.
Speaker 10: But I do got to hand it to Fireman though,
because even though his argument kind of fell apart, and
you know, he wasn't able to, you know, take it
all the way to the to the rim there, but
he at least called in right, so at least he
had the guts to back up what he was saying.
He was talking to some people on chat before and so,
and he said he was going to call in, and
he called in, So you know you got to give
him that much at least.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of keyboard warriors claimed they're going to
called in, but they never do. Yeah, so yeah, they
get some credit. And aside, I did see the super
chet that you just sent inside for ten dollars, big
w thank you for the super chat side says, I've
learned more about the Bible from you than many years
in church. You've answered my question, You've answered my questions.
But one, how do I stop being angry for being
lied to my whole life? And that's actually I think
everyone deals with that differently. Did you guys go through
a phase where you were dealing with anger or this
you know, kind of being felt like you've missed out
or like, how did you deal with with that?
Speaker 10: I don't know if I ever actually believed in a
god and my family was religious, but I don't. I
don't remember. I mean I might have, but I don't
remember it. So I did not go through an angry
phase like that, and I didn't I didn't.
Speaker 1: Feel lied to.
Speaker 10: I felt that there were uh that my family or there.
The religious people that were around me were making an
honest effort to uh to you know, to judge the
world around them. But you know, I don't know if
I think.
Speaker 1: That now, but that's what I did at the time.
Speaker 2: And at some point I forgave myself for being an idiot.
Is when I stopped being angry, when I realized that
I believed because people I trusted told me stuff, and
I believed it because I trusted them. And you know,
in many cases, and this is why we need to
be careful when we paint with broad brushes, and why
we can't call Christians crazy and you know, have mental issues.
They don't. They were told by people they trusted, who
were told by people they trusted, who were by people
they trusted. And so it's only when you actually take
the time to go look at it and do some
research and struggle with the material and wrestle with the
material that you get somewhere and start to do this.
And not everybody has the inclination or the time to
do that. It's not it's not a time for your
cost free process to do that. So you know, that's
just maybe look at where the anger is coming from
and you know, forgive those who who told you in
good faith what they believed was true, and maybe forgive
yourself for accepting that is true. My go a long way.
Speaker 1: Good advice. Well, friends, I think that is the end
of the show is seven o six. Thank you for
being here tonight. I think it was a fun show, Jim.
I had a blast getting to share a stream with
you again. Oh, me too, And we'll be here again
at four point thirty pm Central time. Oh we got
one more super chat from our friend Kyle says, grind
dug into powder and he will reform three days. Yes,
absolutely will nice.
Speaker 2: Nice, I'll haild some glue.
Speaker 1: All right, friends, we'll see you again soon. Make sure
tune in for our The show's talking than nonprofits. That
I miss the miss one. I think the.
Speaker 2: Truth wanted, truth wanted.
Speaker 4: There we go.
Speaker 1: I feel like I always miss one. I don't know
why my brain always wants to leave one out because
it's not in one of the Bible passages. I can
only remember Bible passages apparently. But what kind of atheists
are you?
Speaker 2: Geez?
Speaker 1: I have a great night.
Speaker 11: Friend to stop already, stop the bullshit hamry around you.
Speaker 1: Watch talk Ethan Live Sundays at one pm Central. Visit
tiny dot c c slash y t t H and
call into the show at five one two nine nine
one nine two four two, or connect to the show
online at tiny dot c c slash call THH