Speaker 1: Hey, this is Chris attacking your leadership on today's discussion
Speaker 1: on employee engagement. I want to talk about a quote
Speaker 1: that I heard on a podcast that I thought was
Speaker 1: really profound. I've been thinking about it a lot for
Speaker 1: the last few days and how it impacts how it
Speaker 1: has impacted my own engagement in jobs that I've had
Speaker 1: over the years, and how it will continue to impact
Speaker 1: employee engagement across industries. The quote was, we intend to
Speaker 1: measure what we care about, but end up caring about
Speaker 1: what we can measure. And it was like this like
Speaker 1: kind of like brain like you know, the meme of
Speaker 1: the guy with the exploding head, you know that it
Speaker 1: was one of those things when I when I heard it,
Speaker 1: It's something that I think that on some level I've
Speaker 1: thought about and I've always known, but I've never heard
Speaker 1: it said so succinctly and accurately in this kind of
Speaker 1: you know, this kind of back and forth or kind
Speaker 1: of a mishmash of words that kind of puts itself
Speaker 1: on its own head like that. And I think about
Speaker 1: the times when I've been asked to do things in
Speaker 1: my career that seem to fly in the face of
Speaker 1: whatever the North star experience. Goals are of either the
Speaker 1: organization or my team or or whatever it is. And
Speaker 1: I'm asked to do things while being sold a bill
Speaker 1: of goods that this is in spirit of that, And
Speaker 1: in my mind, I'm thinking, not only is it not
Speaker 1: in spirit of it, it goes it's exactly the opposite
Speaker 1: of that. And if I think about those instances, it
Speaker 1: comes down to trying to care about what is measurable,
Speaker 1: because sometimes measuring what we care about is really hard
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's on the surface it seems so easy,
Speaker 2: but if you get to the core of what are
Speaker 2: you actually talking about in measuring what you care about?
Speaker 2: To your point, it requires a lot more nuance. It
Speaker 2: requires a lot more kind of I would say intuition, uh, observation,
Speaker 2: Like a lot of things to understand, like are we
Speaker 2: are we doing what we say that we're doing? Are
Speaker 2: we are we impacting the way that we say we
Speaker 2: want to impact? And yes, like the ultimate measurement of
Speaker 2: whether or not as an organization or as a company
Speaker 2: you are down the right path is that people vote
Speaker 2: with their dollars and they spend their money. So like
Speaker 2: you can look at an outcome like revenue or growth
Speaker 2: or whatever and say, okay, well, clearly we're doing something
Speaker 2: right here because people are wanting to buy our products
Speaker 2: or our services. But many times within that, there's an
Speaker 2: impact that you want to have. There's a there's a
Speaker 2: use case that's out, there's a lot of things that
Speaker 2: matter to you. And especially as you've now had some
Speaker 2: success from a from a from a sales standpoint or
Speaker 2: dollar standpoint, you're now kind of tuning into how can
Speaker 2: we refine what we do and how can we make
Speaker 2: sure that what we want to add or adjust or
Speaker 2: or build is going to be you know, taken the
Speaker 2: right way or accepted in the right way. You're going
Speaker 2: to have the You're going to have a lot more
Speaker 2: higher level to focus on, you know, some of the
Speaker 2: ways in which you want to measure things that you
Speaker 2: care about. And I think that it's something that, again,
Speaker 2: on the surface, it seems simple, but it's very very deep,
Speaker 2: and it's very hard in many cases to be able
Speaker 2: to actually with only data, be able to figure out
Speaker 2: whether or not what you're trying to do is having
Speaker 2: the impact you want to have.
Speaker 1: Right right, So I remember a YouTube clip that I saw, Oh,
Speaker 1: probably it could be ten or fifteen years ago. Now,
Speaker 1: it was a YouTube clip that showed a police officer
Speaker 1: telling these two young kids that they couldn't have their
Speaker 1: lemonade stand on the corner and actually taking it down
Speaker 1: with them and issuing a fine to the parents for
Speaker 1: having the lemonade stand there to begin with. And and technically,
Speaker 1: is there a law in the on the books for
Speaker 1: wherever that location is that says that you can't sell
Speaker 1: food without a license to sell food or whatever like?
Speaker 1: There's there are things in place to make sure that
Speaker 1: the public is safe and healthy and that you can
Speaker 1: you know that you're audited with for the Health inspector
Speaker 1: all those things. Yeah, of course there is. But but
Speaker 1: I'm I promise you the person who who implemented those laws,
Speaker 1: they weren't thinking we want cops to go stop nine
Speaker 1: year olds from selling lemonade on the corner, right, That's
Speaker 1: not what they were thinking. But that's what ends up happening.
Speaker 1: And so this to me, this is a really similar
Speaker 1: thing here. So the the we intend to measure what
Speaker 1: we care about that is the strategy, that's the strategy
Speaker 1: put in place by someone or a group of people somewhere.
Speaker 1: The strategy is what we care about is the safety
Speaker 1: and health of our public to make sure they're not
Speaker 1: getting food poisoning or illness with they go out to
Speaker 1: eat somewhere. That's what we care about. That's a that's
Speaker 1: a noble goal. What we measure is the amount of
Speaker 1: businesses that are operating without a license, right, and that's
Speaker 1: what's measurable. So that so we end up caring about
Speaker 1: that instead, and then you have nine year olds being
Speaker 1: fined for selling lemonade. This is the same thing. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of organizations out there who put out
Speaker 1: a good strategy on its surface, this is what we
Speaker 1: care about, go at it, you know, make this happen.
Speaker 1: And then you have individual leaders who either a have
Speaker 1: a really difficult time interpreting that into something that is measurable,
Speaker 1: or b they are they go the expedient route, or
Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're lazy, and they don't want to
Speaker 1: put the effort into actually measuring the things that are
Speaker 1: cared about because it takes time and effort and and
Speaker 1: watching your people, you know, visually, and supposed to just
Speaker 1: looking at an Excel spreadsheet. Like all these things happen
Speaker 1: in the middle that change it from a being able
Speaker 1: to measure what you care about to caring about what
Speaker 1: you measure, And there are things that as a leader,
Speaker 1: when you do this, it really hinders employee engagement because
Speaker 1: your employees see through it. They see what's going on,
Speaker 1: even if you don't in the moment or you think
Speaker 1: that they don't. So what I want to go through
Speaker 1: is some things that you can do as a leader
Speaker 1: to make sure this is less likely to happen, and
Speaker 1: that the things that you're doing are in spirit of
Speaker 1: whatever that broader strategy is where you're actually measuring what
Speaker 1: you care about. But first, let's get up for one
Speaker 1: of our sponsors. All right, If you're a leader of
Speaker 1: people and you're trying to lower the likelihood of you know,
Speaker 1: inadvertently switching from measuring what you care about to caring
Speaker 1: about what you can measure, then the first thing is
Speaker 1: is to make sure that you fully understand what the
Speaker 1: strategy is and the ways that it should be measured.
Speaker 1: The person who's telling you the strategy, whoever your boss
Speaker 1: or your boss's boss is, whoever implemented that strategy. There
Speaker 1: are ways that they believe this can be measured. Find
Speaker 1: out what those are. Find out what they believe those
Speaker 1: ways are of measuring it, it is very very likely
Speaker 1: those ways of measuring it are accurate. They are ways
Speaker 1: of figuring out of measuring what you care about how
Speaker 1: it gets interpreted is where it can become the expedient
Speaker 1: or easy way out, where you can just look at
Speaker 1: a scorecard somewhere and caring about what you can measure.
Speaker 1: So find out from the source what the correct ways
Speaker 1: are of measuring whether or not you're being good at
Speaker 1: the thing that is being presented to you or the
Speaker 1: strategy that is being presented to you. If no one
Speaker 1: is able to offer that to you, then it might
Speaker 1: not be a well thought out strategy. But if it
Speaker 1: is a well thought out strategy, there will be ways
Speaker 1: that they will say and the ways that they will
Speaker 1: tell you will likely be ways that require more effort
Speaker 1: and more work than just opening up an email and
Speaker 1: looking at an Excel spreadsheet to see what the numbers
Speaker 1: look like. The numbers are great for validating, but they're
Speaker 1: not you have to be careful on the causal relationship
Speaker 1: between one and the other, because they're not great at
Speaker 1: looking at an individual's performance on a very short period
Speaker 1: of time. And so if you're looking at making your
Speaker 1: employees better at doing something. A scorecard is the worst
Speaker 1: way that you can do to go about doing that
Speaker 1: on a short period of time. Actually watching them do
Speaker 1: their job might be the only way to get this done,
Speaker 1: and that it takes more time and more effort and
Speaker 1: it's more difficult, but it's necessary if you sign up
Speaker 1: to be their leader.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's it's important because I think that
Speaker 2: there's always there's always a measurement of how people get
Speaker 2: work done. And it's very easy sometimes from a scale
Speaker 2: standpoint to look at and say, okay, well, here's how
Speaker 2: we measure efficiency, here's how we measure productivity, here's how
Speaker 2: we measure whatever we're measuring. And we have an average.
Speaker 2: So if we just we don't tell anybody about it,
Speaker 2: we just measure it. Here's the average. Now we can say, well,
Speaker 2: who's above the average, who's below the average. We can
Speaker 2: make all these assumptions that then we have these top performers,
Speaker 2: we have these low performers. What ends up happening is
Speaker 2: that as you check in on the nuance, you start
Speaker 2: to realize that maybe some of the top performers aren't
Speaker 2: doing it the way that you want them. To do it,
Speaker 2: maybe they found ways to appear more productive or more efficient,
Speaker 2: or yes, they're getting the work done, but it's not
Speaker 2: the quality that you want. And then on the flip side,
Speaker 2: you've got those that maybe show that they're less productive
Speaker 2: or less efficient, but they're actually getting a quality of
Speaker 2: work done at a much higher rate. There's more satisfaction
Speaker 2: from what they deliver, Like there's a lot of nuance
Speaker 2: in the space. So it's both, like they will always say,
Speaker 2: like it's the art and the science of utilizing both.
Speaker 2: But to your point, where a lot of leaders fall
Speaker 2: into this trap is when it becomes about you're caring.
Speaker 2: You're caring for what you measure way too much, Like
Speaker 2: it's becoming about the measurement and not about the behaviors,
Speaker 2: the observations, the approach, like all these types of things,
Speaker 2: Like you're not spending time understanding how they are getting
Speaker 2: the measurement. You're just simply looking at the measurement and
Speaker 2: then saying like up as good, down as bad, or
Speaker 2: vice versa. And so long as we're moving in that direction,
Speaker 2: I'm fine, and I'm going to assume that these things
Speaker 2: are getting better versus actually spending the time to make
Speaker 2: sure that I am you know that I am measuring
Speaker 2: what I measuring, like what I care about, which is like,
Speaker 2: are my people getting better? Do they understand the larger vision?
Speaker 2: Are there?
Speaker 1: Are they?
Speaker 2: Are they creating and being productive in ways that have longevity,
Speaker 2: not to your point, like you know, kind of like
Speaker 2: the in the short term. Are they Are they understanding
Speaker 2: of the importance of this work And even if it's harder,
Speaker 2: they're they're taking the route that they know is the
Speaker 2: right route to take to get the work done at
Speaker 2: the level that we want to get it done. So
Speaker 2: it requires a lot more time and effort and intention
Speaker 2: to validate that. In fact, what you care about is
Speaker 2: being cared for. And then the measurement aspect is a
Speaker 2: piece of this, and it's a help it's a helpful
Speaker 2: piece of this, but it's not the only piece of this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that a lot. I think you said
Speaker 1: something at the beginning there that you said very quickly,
Speaker 1: but I I want to really stress this because I
Speaker 1: think it is I think it happens far too often,
Speaker 1: and it happens in a lot of places. This idea
Speaker 1: that that you if you if you attempt to validate
Speaker 1: the scorecard or whatever it is. By watching the behavior,
Speaker 1: by looking at what the employees are actually doing, then
Speaker 1: you might see that some of your top performers aren't
Speaker 1: doing it in the way that they should be doing it.
Speaker 1: They found a way to either gain the system or
Speaker 1: to you know, to have the numbers look good on
Speaker 1: paper right now. But it's at the expense of whatever
Speaker 1: the client or customer experience is in the long term
Speaker 1: that you'll you'll find that happening. And I think in
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of companies, the the the
Speaker 1: leadership doesn't they intentionally avoid validating those things because because
Speaker 1: they almost subconsciously are afraid of what they're going to find.
Speaker 1: They don't want to validate the behaviors of the top
Speaker 1: performers only to find out that the top performers aren't
Speaker 1: doing it correctly, because then they have to do something
Speaker 1: about it. Otherwise they are complicit in it. They need
Speaker 1: they'll they kind of it's a different thing now then
Speaker 1: versus just hey, this is a person's doing great, and
Speaker 1: I have plausible deniability. But if you don't do this,
Speaker 1: then it could go no other way that the employees
Speaker 1: that are looking at these results of the person that's
Speaker 1: being hoisted up on the pedestal and saying look at
Speaker 1: this person, look how great they are, or these people,
Speaker 1: this is the benchmark, this is the goal to hit,
Speaker 1: this is the expectation, this is what's possible. Those kind
Speaker 1: of things. The people who are being expected to rise
Speaker 1: to that level, if they are committed to doing it
Speaker 1: in the right way, then they won't be able to
Speaker 1: hit it because they won't compromise their own values or
Speaker 1: whatever it is in order to get there, and they
Speaker 1: will either burn out and leave thinking this is not
Speaker 1: the right job for them, or they will eventually fall
Speaker 1: the same way and they will compromise their values and
Speaker 1: do things the wrong way to get to that number,
Speaker 1: because that's what the expectation is, and they don't want
Speaker 1: to lose their job or or be performance managed because
Speaker 1: of it. And so I think a lot of leaders
Speaker 1: will they don't want to know. They want to put
Speaker 1: their head in the sand, and they accept the great
Speaker 1: numbers and they go, yay, this is amazing. But the
Speaker 1: quicker that you can do it, and the more often
Speaker 1: you can validate the behaviors, the more likely you are
Speaker 1: to have a good representation or a good picture of
Speaker 1: what is possible. What does good look like? Because the
Speaker 1: people who are doing the behaviors the best consistently, whatever
Speaker 1: their results are, are likely what is possible. The person
Speaker 1: who's at the top, they might be doing everything great
Speaker 1: and that's fine, but they might not be, and so
Speaker 1: figure that out so that you are not holding your
Speaker 1: people to a standard that starts with the result you're
Speaker 1: looking for and works backward, but rather it starts with
Speaker 1: the behavi you're looking for and uses the result to
Speaker 1: validate it. Thank you all for joining us in this episode.
Speaker 1: Join us again next Thursday and we'll continue talk about
Speaker 1: employe engagement. You have a great day.