Speaker 1: If I have to think about the twenty twenty eight
Speaker 1: to twenty twenty thirty two cycle, I think the narrative
Speaker 1: of that cycle is going to be the pivot from
Speaker 1: AI back to bitcoin. There's a bottleneck in compute right now.
Speaker 1: I'm not bearish AI, but over time, I think the
Speaker 1: bottleneck does get resolved. So if you're running a data center,
Speaker 1: you want your utilization to be at the highest rate
Speaker 1: it can be. If that bottleneck does kind of break up,
Speaker 1: maybe there's more competition for those inference contracts, right so
Speaker 1: that drives now the revenue can get from down. I
Speaker 1: think that starts to kind of pivot back to a bitcoin.
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Speaker 2: slash go slash Thinking Crypto will be in the description. Hey, folks,
Speaker 2: welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm Tony Edward and
Speaker 2: we're recording at Station three in New York's Financial District.
Speaker 2: And joining me is Jim Ferrioli, who's the head of
Speaker 2: crypto Research at Charles Schwap. Prior to joining Schwap, Jim
Speaker 2: spent over a decade at Morgan Stanley, where he was
Speaker 2: a mid cap equity portfolio manager and cryptocurrency strategist. Jim,
Speaker 2: great to have you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2: So Jim, where do you hail from and how did
Speaker 2: you make your way into tradify working at Morgan Stanley.
Speaker 1: So, I'm a New Jersey guy. I was born in
Speaker 1: northern New Jersey. I live there now, you know. I
Speaker 1: grew up there. I started my career in finance at
Speaker 1: Morgan Stanley. I actually started as a financial advisor, you know,
Speaker 1: and eventually spent the better half of my career so
Speaker 1: far at that firm. Eventually I was in the CIO office,
Speaker 1: I was running a MidCap portfolio, and I was also
Speaker 1: doing the crypto research. Last summer I joined Schwab to
Speaker 1: build out their crypto research. As Schwab was beginning to
Speaker 1: in the process of building out their crypto trading platform
Speaker 1: and after having a pretty big presence within the ETP
Speaker 1: space about twenty percent of the spot ETP assets those
Speaker 1: actually come from Schwab clients, and so with the launch
Speaker 1: of crypto trading. They wanted to bring someone in who
Speaker 1: could actually cover the asset class for the firm.
Speaker 2: Where along your journey did you discover crypto? All was
Speaker 2: fascinated by folks origin story around bitcoin and so forth.
Speaker 2: What was your aha moment?
Speaker 1: So classic New Jersey stereotypes, as we were just talking offline.
Speaker 1: Earlier in my twenties, I rented a house down the
Speaker 1: shore in Manasquan and so I first heard of bitcoin
Speaker 1: in the summer of twenty twelve. It was trading between
Speaker 1: six and nine dollars ever your time. Unfortunately I did
Speaker 1: not invest in bitcoin at the time, but it had
Speaker 1: gone on it That was one of the early bull runs.
Speaker 1: It was all over CNBC and so I kind of
Speaker 1: looked into it and said, like, what is this bitcoin thing?
Speaker 1: Should I buy some? And then you know, I actually
Speaker 1: saw it, So you have to get this thing called
Speaker 1: a wallet. There's like this exchange in Japan you can
Speaker 1: buy it on. And it was like, all right, never mine,
Speaker 1: you know, and I didn't really think about it much.
Speaker 1: And then fast forward a few years later. It was
Speaker 1: the kind of twenty seventeen bull run, and it went
Speaker 1: from about three thousand dollars to about eighteen thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: I was in business school at the time. I was
Speaker 1: working at Morgan Stanley, and you know, there was this
Speaker 1: four bull run and it was starting to get attention
Speaker 1: from financial advisors and different people on Wall Street. You know,
Speaker 1: you were hearing about it in the news, and I
Speaker 1: was a pretty big skeptic, and I said, like, this
Speaker 1: is fake internet money. There's nothing here. It's some of
Speaker 1: the I went to. There were several electrical engineers from
Speaker 1: Connet and that I went to business school with. And
Speaker 1: if you recall, a lot of the early people that
Speaker 1: were interested in crypto were more of the engineering and
Speaker 1: so a bunch of them they had acquired it. They
Speaker 1: got it early on and they were like, yeah, we
Speaker 1: have this thing called bitcoin. One guy was like I
Speaker 1: have six of them. A wow, you got to sell that,
Speaker 1: you know, that's tuition, Like what are you doing? Like
Speaker 1: this is fake money. And it was funny because you know,
Speaker 1: that market played itself out. There was the correction, but
Speaker 1: then after that I was like, you know, this was
Speaker 1: you know, six dollars in twenty twelve, it reached eighteen
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Even after the bear market. I was like,
Speaker 1: I should like this is interesting, like what's going on,
Speaker 1: And so that's what I actually started to learn a
Speaker 1: bit more about it get interested about it. In twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, twenty twenty, I started working in the Morgan
Speaker 1: Stanley CIO office. My colleague had begun actually publishing crypto
Speaker 1: research for that firm in twenty eighteen, and so we
Speaker 1: were on the same team and it was an area
Speaker 1: was interested in. I'm more of a growth investor, right,
Speaker 1: so I always wanted to you know, kind of learn
Speaker 1: about the technology things like that, and so that was
Speaker 1: really the interest from my side, and so I kind
Speaker 1: of went to him and said like, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd love to get involved. And you know, in corporate America,
Speaker 1: if you offer to help anyone, they're never going to
Speaker 1: say no. You know, here's a laundry list of things
Speaker 1: I don't want to do. You know, do these for me.
Speaker 1: And so over the years that's kind of how it built.
Speaker 1: But that that was where the interest came from. Really
Speaker 1: understanding like the interest from a technology investing perspective. I
Speaker 1: think it's a really interesting technology and it's kind of
Speaker 1: to have been following the space for several years it's
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting to see where we are
Speaker 1: now because forever people always talked about like, oh, once
Speaker 1: like bitcoin gets adopted, once blockchain technology gets adopted, and
Speaker 1: now we're actually like, this is the moment financial institutions
Speaker 1: across the world are actually not just offering crypto products
Speaker 1: to their clients, but like trying to adopt the technology.
Speaker 1: So it's it's I think it's a really interesting time
Speaker 1: and that's really kind of what where my interests stemmed from. Oh.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And to your point, you know, for a while,
Speaker 2: a lot of people were like, what are these coins?
Speaker 2: It looked like scams, but they were missing the technology piece,
Speaker 2: and I think to your point, that's where people are
Speaker 2: like having that aha moment, Oh, we can actually build
Speaker 2: on these blockchains. We can put the markets on the blockchains,
Speaker 2: and all the incredible innovation that's happening now.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's funny. So even if as late as
Speaker 1: early twenty twenty four before the Genius Act passed, it
Speaker 1: passed in the summer of or sorry, summer twenty twenty five,
Speaker 1: Genius Act passed so early in twenty twenty five, people
Speaker 1: would say, like stable coins, there's still nothing there and
Speaker 1: as soon as that legislation passed, you know, it was
Speaker 1: kind of like this this light bulb turned on because
Speaker 1: then financial institutions were like, well, we can use this,
Speaker 1: we can do something with this, and like the use
Speaker 1: case was clearly there, it was just you didn't have
Speaker 1: this kind of broad mainstream adoption outside of kind of
Speaker 1: your crypto user. And so I think it's very much
Speaker 1: the same, like once you kind of see that there
Speaker 1: is a path. People have understood the frictionless technology of
Speaker 1: blockchain for many years, and so I think it's the
Speaker 1: same thing. We saw it work with stable coins and
Speaker 1: now we're seeing tokenizing real world assets that it's like
Speaker 1: there's clearly something here, there are benefits to it, and
Speaker 1: so I think that's the story.
Speaker 2: And do you think the connection is being made by
Speaker 2: institutions and retail investors that you have blockchain, but you
Speaker 2: have the coins, and that they're one in a sense
Speaker 2: that you can bet on the blockchain by holding the coin.
Speaker 2: I think that distinction was not clear for a lot
Speaker 2: of people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's actually what I love about it. So
Speaker 1: having an equities background, if you are going to invest
Speaker 1: in AI, right, how do you invest in AI? You
Speaker 1: buy Nvidia right now, maybe you buy a memory stock
Speaker 1: like Micron, right you buy a hyperscaler. You're not actually
Speaker 1: investing in AI. You're investing in a company that either
Speaker 1: produces a product or a component that's used in building
Speaker 1: these systems. And that's what I love about the blockchain aspect,
Speaker 1: where if you're buying the token, you're actually it's directly
Speaker 1: this is how you actually interact with the infrastructure itself,
Speaker 1: So you're actually investing in the technology itself. And so again, yeah,
Speaker 1: if if you think that there's something here, you think
Speaker 1: the adoption is going to grow, you actually by having
Speaker 1: that interest in the token like that, that's the direct
Speaker 1: exposure to it. If there's more demand, there's more growth
Speaker 1: on these networks, there's going to be more demand for
Speaker 1: their native currencies, and so I that's that's why I
Speaker 1: think it's interesting from an investment standpoint.
Speaker 2: Pardon the interruption. Hi, I'm Tony. I'm the host of
Speaker 2: the Thinking Crypto podcast. I wanted to ask you if
Speaker 2: you can please support the podcast by hitting the like
Speaker 2: button subscribing. If you haven't as yet, you can leave
Speaker 2: a comment below as well. And if you're listening on
Speaker 2: a podcast platform such as Spotify, Apple or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. Please be sure to follow and hit
Speaker 2: the five star rating. I'll let you get back to
Speaker 2: the content. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's fascinating because
Speaker 2: for the first time ever you can invest in a protocol.
Speaker 2: You know, you go back to your early days of
Speaker 2: the Internet, you couldn't invest in t c ip per se.
Speaker 2: Obviously you can invest in Internet companies, Google and so forth.
Speaker 2: But for the first time you can have access to
Speaker 2: the protocol.
Speaker 1: It's interesting and I think it's it provides a different
Speaker 1: lens of investing too, because I don't know how much
Speaker 1: of the value of the Internet would have kind of
Speaker 1: accrued to like that core structure. But I do think blockchains,
Speaker 1: it's not it's different, obviously different than the Internet, and
Speaker 1: to continue to interact on them, you need to have
Speaker 1: their tokens and so like, there is a way of
Speaker 1: monetizing that to an extent. But I also do think
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of layer one blockchains and you
Speaker 1: certainly don't need that many layer onelection So you're right,
Speaker 1: there's there's been a couple couple proven business models or
Speaker 1: you know, protocol models, whatever you want to call them
Speaker 1: because they're not all technically businesses that have emerged, and
Speaker 1: that's resulted in a lot of copycats. Right, So layer
Speaker 1: one blockchain, people know, is like a proven idea at
Speaker 1: this point, and so you have you have so many
Speaker 1: and I don't know if there's really that much happening.
Speaker 1: Actually I do know there's not much happening outside of
Speaker 1: the large ones, and so I think that's the difference,
Speaker 1: like that you have a lot of like every year
Speaker 1: there's a new decks, like a new centralized exchange, and
Speaker 1: it's like, this is a model that we know that works,
Speaker 1: so we're going to just kind of keep recreating it.
Speaker 1: And so I think you need some consolidation there. I
Speaker 1: think it needs to look like kind of more traditional industries,
Speaker 1: right like you have in any other industry, there's essentially
Speaker 1: like two or three large players and that a bunch
Speaker 1: of specialized ones. I think layer one blockchain should look
Speaker 1: like that. I think kind of as you get broader
Speaker 1: defied development on chain finance, whatever you want to call
Speaker 1: it now Web three, I'm actually still a big Web
Speaker 1: three bowl, you know. Again, I think like you'll have
Speaker 1: kind of different areas like lending, maybe trading, social if
Speaker 1: that ever comes back, right, and there will be like
Speaker 1: two or three leaders and then some specialized players, and
Speaker 1: I think it's just gonna look like kind of every
Speaker 1: other industry. Where again that's in general the kind of
Speaker 1: the industry.
Speaker 2: Makeup that absolutely makes sense because to your point, there's
Speaker 2: so many brock coins out there, it's hard to keep up.
Speaker 2: I believe on coin market caps in that thousands now
Speaker 2: or probably more so hard. Question let's say, is that
Speaker 2: consolidation ten years from now, do you think it's going
Speaker 2: to be twenty blockchains that are primarily being used across
Speaker 2: the globe by different industries.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. If I don't even know, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe twenty is a fair enough because I think
Speaker 1: there will always be the specialized blockchain and it's gonna
Speaker 1: have it. It's very specific use case. I mean, if
Speaker 1: I think of the current makeup right in public blockchains
Speaker 1: right now, ethereum is obviously the largest, so it's got
Speaker 1: the leading market share, solonas emerging as the higher transaction
Speaker 1: speed may be geared more for trading, right. I think
Speaker 1: it's interesting if you look at real world assets token
Speaker 1: is that sets most of that's on ethereum. You look
Speaker 1: at Solana, right, Solana kind of the primary use case
Speaker 1: has been mean coins to date, but it did serve
Speaker 1: it as kind of a good test case that they
Speaker 1: can't that the infrastructure can handle a lot of high
Speaker 1: frequency trading things like that, the high but you say,
Speaker 1: like active trading, and so again, now the use case
Speaker 1: appears to be moving towards that, and so you know,
Speaker 1: again like the everyone's going to find their niche, maybe
Speaker 1: Ethereum to the general purpose smart contract platform. Solana might
Speaker 1: be more geared towards trading. And then you have Tron,
Speaker 1: which is really a pure poly stable, a staple cooin
Speaker 1: network at this way, and so so I think again
Speaker 1: it's it's already moving in that direction. XRP Ledger is
Speaker 1: making the shift from kind of a payments network to
Speaker 1: more of a stable coin transaction network. And then the
Speaker 1: dt CC, you know, they they announced that they're working
Speaker 1: with a lot of different block changes because it's it's
Speaker 1: so big, and you know, they actually announced their work
Speaker 1: with Stellar, right, and so again I think it's kind
Speaker 1: of already in that the winners have clearly been established,
Speaker 1: and so I think like there's some clear losers that
Speaker 1: have been established. You know Cardano launched, it was supposed
Speaker 1: to be in this competitive ethereum, and it's just it's
Speaker 1: not really no disrespect because I'm sure a lot of
Speaker 1: effort went into building it, right, but it just it
Speaker 1: hasn't captured shair. There's not really much going on, and
Speaker 1: so I think it's it that that shift's already happening,
Speaker 1: and so maybe there'll be twenty layer ones, but I'd
Speaker 1: say majority of the activity is going to be on
Speaker 1: kind of like maybe the top four, top three.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's just a natural part of the business
Speaker 2: cycle in the free market, right, and the clear winners
Speaker 2: and losers. You know, I think a bit of the
Speaker 2: search engine wars in the early nineties we had ax, Geves,
Speaker 2: Lykos and some other random search engines will Google, Yahoo,
Speaker 2: and I believe m a sen where the three leaders
Speaker 2: that came out of that, and Google now just dominates
Speaker 2: for the most part.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The best thing about the search engine thing is
Speaker 1: we've actually gone a full circle with asked Jeeves. You
Speaker 1: actually had to you were asking you questions, and now
Speaker 1: you know, with the prevalence of kind of ll ms,
Speaker 1: we're back to asking the Internet questions, which which is
Speaker 1: kind of fun. But I also think that's an interesting
Speaker 1: analogy because you had in the late nineties, you had
Speaker 1: the emergence of all these companies. You had the dot
Speaker 1: com bubble and a big bear market, and following that
Speaker 1: then you got really great tech companies that are now
Speaker 1: some of the biggest companies today Google, Netflix, And so
Speaker 1: it's not too dissimilar as to what's going on right now,
Speaker 1: because you know, if we were talking this time last year,
Speaker 1: no one saw, you know, thought the baker market was
Speaker 1: going to wipe out. You know, people would be leaving
Speaker 1: the crypto industry who'd been building, you know, for the
Speaker 1: past decade, right, But that's happened, and and and it's
Speaker 1: you know, recessions in any sense, whether it's a broad
Speaker 1: based economic recession, whether it's solely on the crypto industry,
Speaker 1: which is what I would say we're in. You know,
Speaker 1: they're painful, but they're necessary. They kind of wash out
Speaker 1: the excess leverage, which they kind of i'd say, shift
Speaker 1: capital into maybe new avenues of growth and out of
Speaker 1: avenues that are no longer growing. And so it's painful,
Speaker 1: but I think it's healthy. Now.
Speaker 2: You mentioned the market cycles, and you know Bigcoin has
Speaker 2: tend to follow a four year cycle. Do you think
Speaker 2: that persists over time where it might be changed due
Speaker 2: to the growth of the asset, more liquidity, moreholders.
Speaker 1: And things like that. It's a I mean, the biggest
Speaker 1: debate in crypto has always been, you know, will will
Speaker 1: the cycle persist? And I think it was notable how
Speaker 1: last summer, you know, everyone was saying with the emergency
Speaker 1: of companies like Strategy and other digital ausatruture companies ets
Speaker 1: that there would just be this constant demand in spot markets.
Speaker 1: I do think the having cycle will persist, but I
Speaker 1: don't think it looks the same way it did in
Speaker 1: each cycle. I think fundamentally, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: on Wall Street don't like this because it's such a dumb,
Speaker 1: easy explanation, but it's it's also very fundamentally true. Like
Speaker 1: for anything, there's a kind of a equilibrium price between
Speaker 1: supply and demand, right, that's the bitcoin aving cycle.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right, It's so simple and stupid, but it's kind of true.
Speaker 1: Over the long term, you still have the same people
Speaker 1: acquiring bitcoin that started acquiring it in twenty ten, they're
Speaker 1: still acquiring it today. Every year. You actually have some
Speaker 1: new people coming in and I'm not saying like adoption
Speaker 1: is going to like explode from here. But the case
Speaker 1: I'm making is over the long term demand is actually
Speaker 1: relatively stable for bitcoin, and we know that the new
Speaker 1: supply is disinflationary, and so there's this kind of longer term,
Speaker 1: permanent mismatch. And so I think, like, again it's really
Speaker 1: dumb and really simplistic, but there is an equilibrium between
Speaker 1: supply demand every four years. You have to find that
Speaker 1: new equilibrium price.
Speaker 2: Plus the mining operation costs, right, they run exactly that,
Speaker 2: and so like that's the other side.
Speaker 1: I mean that supports that price the cost of producing
Speaker 1: and so what I would you know, what I would
Speaker 1: expect in the future is the having cycle will continue, Right,
Speaker 1: you have to find this new equilibrium price post having,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying, and we already saw it. We used
Speaker 1: to see like ten x ten thousand x cycles followed
Speaker 1: by like an eighty five percent draw down from twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two to last year's peak. We did eight x,
Speaker 1: which is still good for four years, right, but you
Speaker 1: know it's much smaller. Bitcoins volatility has significantly fallen during
Speaker 1: this period too. So the SNB five hundred is like
Speaker 1: a tenvole asset Bitcoin, this cycle is about a forty
Speaker 1: vall asset, so it's about four times as volatile. It's
Speaker 1: the S and P five hundred. Last cycle, it was
Speaker 1: more like a you know, fifty sixty and the cycle
Speaker 1: before maybe seventy eight. Right, So it's volatilities coming down
Speaker 1: as it's getting bigger. It's hard for a one point
Speaker 1: two trillion dollar asset to ten x right. That requires
Speaker 1: a lot of money, And so I would expect the
Speaker 1: having cycle to persist again, maybe less exponential moves up,
Speaker 1: less deep draw downs. But the interesting thing for me
Speaker 1: is I do expect over time, not like in the
Speaker 1: immediate future, you will see correlation of different cryptocurrencies full
Speaker 1: right now everything is essentially linked to big Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you about that, yeah, because
Speaker 2: Bitcoin seems to be the lead dog and all the
Speaker 2: all coins follows, so to speak. Right, So my next
Speaker 2: question was going to be, it's going to be decoupling
Speaker 2: where like the amount of building on Eth and the
Speaker 2: amount of value on Eth, it just decouples, it breaks
Speaker 2: away exactly.
Speaker 1: So if I in using Eth as an example, right,
Speaker 1: So last year, what I when I think is smart
Speaker 1: contract platforms, I used GDP right, the sum of all
Speaker 1: fees across the platform as a proxy for economic activity
Speaker 1: on that platform. And so last year about fifty percent
Speaker 1: of that came from staple coin transactions, twenty percent came
Speaker 1: from liquid staking, and another twenty percent lending. Right, and
Speaker 1: then so the balances things like trading and then just
Speaker 1: like kind of core infrastructure and really small things. All
Speaker 1: of that activity is still dependent on the price of bitcoin,
Speaker 1: right as bitcoin's rising. Stable coins are primarily an onboard
Speaker 1: I mean, like everyone loves the story that it's for
Speaker 1: crosswater transactions, like you're sending it to your family member
Speaker 1: who lives in Peru or something, you know, But it's
Speaker 1: like what people are really doing is they're onboarding there,
Speaker 1: and they're either at some point going to swap it
Speaker 1: into like a volatile cryptocurrency, or they're pledging it as
Speaker 1: collateral in a dex. And so again it's as kind
Speaker 1: of sentiment rises, there's more demand for specultive activity specifically
Speaker 1: on ethereum, right as there's more demand there at the
Speaker 1: price of ether rises, right, So now you might want
Speaker 1: to stake it so you can earn some yield, but
Speaker 1: you also have a larger value right, if it's gone
Speaker 1: up in price, and so you might want to put
Speaker 1: it in something like ave and earn some interest off
Speaker 1: and so again, like it's all linked to the price
Speaker 1: of bitcoin on the way up, yes, and on the
Speaker 1: way down. Yeah, exactly. To your point, tokenization changes that, right,
Speaker 1: if you're a deposit, if you're tokenizing deposits, if you're
Speaker 1: tokenizing stocks, doesn't matter what bitcoin's doing, right, you're it's
Speaker 1: just it's a completely separate usage. So I think exactly
Speaker 1: over time they couple. I don't think like anytime soon.
Speaker 1: I think it's the twenty twenty eight to twenty twenty
Speaker 1: twenty thirty two cycle. There's still going to be a
Speaker 1: lot of correlation there. But yeah, I think that's the case.
Speaker 2: You know, speaking of tokenization, Jim, it seems that all
Speaker 2: of Wall Street, including tarsh Law, Morgan sand everybody is
Speaker 2: heading in the same direction of looking to put all
Speaker 2: assets on chain, starting with stocks, ets, money market funds,
Speaker 2: and so forth. I think black Rock just this week
Speaker 2: or yesterday announced they launched two new funds.
Speaker 1: Is this the direction? You know?
Speaker 2: In ten years, when we look back, it's everything's running
Speaker 2: on chain.
Speaker 1: I think that I don't know if I would say everything,
Speaker 1: but I think a lot will go on chain. And
Speaker 1: to be clear, that's not all going to be public blockchains, right,
Speaker 1: so it's going to be private solutions like can't on network, right,
Speaker 1: some people might just build their own thing friction lists, settlement,
Speaker 1: low cost transactions like it's clearly there's something there, and
Speaker 1: so I would expect over time assets are going to
Speaker 1: continue to move on chain. Now that the hiccup in
Speaker 1: the short term is you have completely separate worlds where
Speaker 1: it's you have a very defined and existing infrastructure that
Speaker 1: you actually need to build this into, and so I
Speaker 1: think it will take time. If you go back to
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen twenty eighteen, I worked on a trading desk
Speaker 1: in Morgan Stanley and at the time the TTCC was
Speaker 1: doing a small tick pilot program. And so this is
Speaker 1: a long winded answer, and there's a point I'll get there.
Speaker 1: But so the point of it was smaller market cap stocks,
Speaker 1: instead of having them trade and increments of a cent,
Speaker 1: have them trade in increments of five cents, and so
Speaker 1: that would theoretically build more volume around these different prices,
Speaker 1: and so it makes it more liquid. And so it
Speaker 1: was a test program. They rolled it out to I
Speaker 1: forget how many stocks, and they did it for like
Speaker 1: a year or two and see if it helped liquidity.
Speaker 1: That's essentially what they're doing now. Like they it was like,
Speaker 1: let's try different things, let's see what works. I think
Speaker 1: it's going to take some time for all this for
Speaker 1: firms to kind of realize what's the best way to
Speaker 1: do it. But I think that's the roadmap. Right. You're
Speaker 1: not just going to day one put everything on the right.
Speaker 1: It's it's going to be you're going to try see
Speaker 1: what works. It's going to be very controlled, and so
Speaker 1: I think over time you get there. I think it's
Speaker 1: going to take some time. There are some interesting things
Speaker 1: to think about as well. Right when you think about
Speaker 1: maybe an individual investor, the inter day liquidity is not
Speaker 1: so much of an issue. Right, If I want to
Speaker 1: buy shares of Apple, right, not an endorsement, not but
Speaker 1: you know it's it's it's fine, I go in, I
Speaker 1: put in an order, or or a financial consultant puts
Speaker 1: in an order for me, and I think it's one
Speaker 1: hundred chairs, like right, settle ten chairs for me? It's
Speaker 1: probably like two shares.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, but uh again, so it's a very but
Speaker 3: when you start looking at these kind of institutional pools
Speaker 3: of money, it's interesting because instant settlement it actually.
Speaker 1: Can be a hurdle for lower liquidity stocks. And this
Speaker 1: is why prime brokerage businesses exist, right because if you're
Speaker 1: kind of like in the hedge fund space, your shorting
Speaker 1: stocks or right, you're borrowing shares from people to short,
Speaker 1: and so the way that works in prime brokerage is
Speaker 1: you kind of like borrow, you do these transactions, and
Speaker 1: you settle off at the end of the day. And
Speaker 1: that's why that business works. If you're doing kind of
Speaker 1: stocks with low liquidity and you're instantly settling throughout the day,
Speaker 1: you might find that like your order books, your your
Speaker 1: books are kind of mismatched, and if you lose liquidity
Speaker 1: later in the day, that can kind of lead some
Speaker 1: issues and so like and like use cases like that,
Speaker 1: they're probably going to want to leave some of it
Speaker 1: at least in the short term and the traditional month
Speaker 1: because like that they do provide a core service to
Speaker 1: these kind of institutional investors that they actually benefit from
Speaker 1: not having the instant settlement. But I still think over
Speaker 1: the time it's going to go that way there's I mean,
Speaker 1: there's there's already liquidity providers doing this type of work
Speaker 1: in kind of the crypto space, right, And so I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that it doesn't go, but I just think
Speaker 1: there there's it's going to be a very measured rollout,
Speaker 1: and it's it's going to be slower. But I mean
Speaker 1: there's so much money out there that even a very
Speaker 1: measured rollout can very quickly increase the assets on all
Speaker 1: these different blockchains.
Speaker 2: And in this phase rollout, right, that's going to take time.
Speaker 2: Do you see like a bifurcation issue with the two
Speaker 2: you have the tokenized version, you have the traditional version.
Speaker 2: Maybe there's difference in prices and liquidity and some an
Speaker 2: arbitrage opportunity.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I mean that that that stands. That
Speaker 1: stands out to mind. I suspect that would get armed
Speaker 1: out so quickly.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I think everyone's kind of got their eye on that, like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's there's gonna be easy money to be made. I
Speaker 1: imagine it won't you know. I suspect, uh, it's gonna
Speaker 1: there's gonna be so many people looking for that that
Speaker 1: it's gonna be difficult.
Speaker 2: I know, the sec they're currently working on legislation around
Speaker 2: token I securities and much more. And obviously we're recording
Speaker 2: this on Tuesday, August fourth, waiting for the Clarity Act.
Speaker 2: So do you think, you know, once we have the
Speaker 2: guidance from the clarityac itself, any sec that we're going
Speaker 2: to see a boom intokenization.
Speaker 1: So the way that I think about that is it's
Speaker 1: similar to kind of the energy industry. So, like the
Speaker 1: energy industry was kind of a contentious area, and like
Speaker 1: politically again, like I'm not saying this from a partisan perspective,
Speaker 1: but if you were going to invest right, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: want to kind of make a long term, expensive capex
Speaker 1: decision that could change based on the makeup of DC
Speaker 1: every two to four years. And so that's my fear
Speaker 1: without Clarity Act passing. Now, the SEC has said that
Speaker 1: they'll kind of adopt rules. They've already done some of that,
Speaker 1: but again and a new administration could come and they
Speaker 1: could reinterpret it. And so the benefit of having laws
Speaker 1: passed is that you have a clear framework. And so
Speaker 1: I think the genie is out of the bottle at
Speaker 1: this point. I don't think firms that are looking at
Speaker 1: this are going to turn their backs on it, but
Speaker 1: I think, you know, having that get passed would maybe
Speaker 1: accelerate some of their longer term plans things like that,
Speaker 1: and so I think it's very important. I haven't I'm
Speaker 1: yet to find someone who doesn't think it should get passed.
Speaker 1: You know, it's and again, even if you're anti crypto,
Speaker 1: this puts guardrails on it. If you're pro crypto, there's benefits,
Speaker 1: and so it seems sensible. I'm not our you know,
Speaker 1: our DC and public policy guru, my colleague Bike Townsend is.
Speaker 1: But again, like the bill was written by partisan. It
Speaker 1: passed the House. I think seventy Democrats joined Republicans to
Speaker 1: pass it. It's been worked on by partisan in the
Speaker 1: Senate for the past year, and so I think it
Speaker 1: anything that's kind of getting worked on right now, I
Speaker 1: don't think that would get delayed. But you know, when
Speaker 1: companies build plans out there, they're building out five ten years,
Speaker 1: and so maybe there's things further out that might get delayed. Oh.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that absolutely makes sense. And hopefully our government can
Speaker 2: get it done. They can pass it in a couple
Speaker 2: of days ago, a couple of days ago, and they
Speaker 2: can release innovation and create jobs and all these great things.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Charlie Schwab's respective crypto offerings at a
Speaker 2: high level. For the most part, you know, what are
Speaker 2: you guys currently offering?
Speaker 1: So we offer first, we have the spot ETPs. They're
Speaker 1: all on our platform, so about twenty percent of those
Speaker 1: assets are from Schwab clients. In terms of direct cryptocurrencies,
Speaker 1: we launched spot trading earlier this year. We've been doing
Speaker 1: a rollout every week. We have more clients joining it.
Speaker 1: So right now schweb clients can invest directly in bitcoin
Speaker 1: and ether and so that's where we're at with that.
Speaker 2: And as far as demand, I'm curious, you know, what
Speaker 2: are your client saying we want access to this or
Speaker 2: are there some of them who are still in the
Speaker 2: FEN saying I'm not sure about this. You know, what
Speaker 2: kind of sentiment are you seeing.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of both. To think about it.
Speaker 1: You know, I spent a lot of my time obviously
Speaker 1: in crypto. You spend a lot of your time in crypto.
Speaker 1: But if you're like the average client, like you have
Speaker 1: a life outside of crypto, right, it's like, right, you know,
Speaker 1: a job that's probably not linked to it, and so
Speaker 1: I liken it to the case of owning like gold
Speaker 1: or something like that in a portfolio, and not not
Speaker 1: making the digital gold comparison, but saying that most clients, right,
Speaker 1: if you have sixty forty portfolio of stocks and bonds,
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have exposure to goals, right, And some
Speaker 1: clients want that and some don't. And so I think
Speaker 1: that's the best way to describe it. Some clients want
Speaker 1: exposure to this, some couldn't care less. And again that's like,
Speaker 1: that's how it is for many assets. And what I
Speaker 1: would say, people tend to be more interested when prices
Speaker 1: are at all time highs, right, And that's a nature
Speaker 1: of you. It's talked about in the media twenty four
Speaker 1: to seven, Right. You go on like CNBC and it's
Speaker 1: like they have these guests on all the time. You know,
Speaker 1: everyone wants to buy when bitcoin's at one hundred twenty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. No one wants to buy when it's at
Speaker 1: sixty thousand dollars. And so it's a cyclical asset and
Speaker 1: I think that's a nature. But we have clients that
Speaker 1: have been investing in crypto for many years. The reason
Speaker 1: that Schwab wanted to offer cryptos because we had clients
Speaker 1: that were interested in wanted to meet clients where they
Speaker 1: are in the Schwab way. Right, We're never gonna be
Speaker 1: the first one to launch this, but we want to
Speaker 1: do it in a way that we're comfortable, that we
Speaker 1: feel is secure, and we want to meet our clients
Speaker 1: demand if we want to, if our clients have interest
Speaker 1: in it, if they're already investing in it, we want
Speaker 1: to be able to meet them where they are.
Speaker 2: And I think having institutions such as Schwab offering these
Speaker 2: products I think helps break down that barrier of trust
Speaker 2: as well, because a lot of people, you even like
Speaker 2: my mom and dad, I can't tell them to go
Speaker 2: to coinbase and buy bitcoin and have a seed phrase
Speaker 2: and a wallet. But if I tell them go to
Speaker 2: Charlie Schwab or Fidelity, whoever it is that brands, they
Speaker 2: are familiar with it, they may be using already. It's
Speaker 2: an easier sell.
Speaker 1: It's it's something they're familiar with. Yes, you know, if
Speaker 1: you you don't have to self custody, right, It's it's
Speaker 1: it's just it's very similar. It fits to how they've
Speaker 1: always invested, and it's a name they're familiar with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm sure you guys are doing the education,
Speaker 2: you know, helping them. But folks understanding, here's the blockchain,
Speaker 2: here's the core.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's why my role exists. And so
Speaker 1: I'm there to act as a guide for the clients
Speaker 1: who are very new to this, but also be there
Speaker 1: for the clients who've been in the space for many
Speaker 1: years and so putting out we have a lot of
Speaker 1: resources We've put out that some educational, some more market
Speaker 1: research driven, right, things like that, But there's a lot
Speaker 1: of resources out there for clients that are looking to
Speaker 1: learn more. Again, you want to meet the clients where
Speaker 1: they are.
Speaker 2: Are their plans to support additional assets going down the market,
Speaker 2: capitalist down to road.
Speaker 1: Potentially, So they kind of leave me out of the
Speaker 1: loop there. So they don't want me spouting these things
Speaker 1: on TV, for sure, you know. But but there's always
Speaker 1: potential for more, oh for sure.
Speaker 2: Now, I want to talk a bit about it, and
Speaker 2: we touched a bit about it earlier. The cyclicality of
Speaker 2: the markets. You know a lot of folks that the
Speaker 2: last bitcoin crypto bullmarket didn't do as well because of
Speaker 2: the AI trade, and also gold and silver had a bullmarket,
Speaker 2: which was incredib Do you think as those wind down,
Speaker 2: Golden Silver and AI crypto starts to pick up again.
Speaker 1: To an extent, so, I think the crypto asset class,
Speaker 1: it's momentum driven. Very few people are actually looking at
Speaker 1: blockchain fundamentals right and seeing like where the activity is
Speaker 1: actually happening. More people are starting to, which is great
Speaker 1: because that will lead to a more efficient fundamentally driven
Speaker 1: market over time. But yeah, right now, it's just driven
Speaker 1: by Okay, prices are up. What we said before, everyone
Speaker 1: want to buy one hundred and twenty. No one wants
Speaker 1: to buy a sixty, and so it's momentum driven. Part
Speaker 1: of the reason we had less I think that we
Speaker 1: had less of a kind of bowl phase this cycle,
Speaker 1: and again less of a bowl phase in the previous cycle.
Speaker 1: Is the accessible kind of areas to speculate in crypto
Speaker 1: have grown, right, maybe prior to twenty twenty, like you
Speaker 1: could get the top ten in coinbase or something. See
Speaker 1: only that twenty twenty one bull market. For the average
Speaker 1: new investor to crypto, you were kind of concentrated to
Speaker 1: like a smaller sub sect. And then obviously there were
Speaker 1: NFTs and all that, right, but now you have purpse,
Speaker 1: you have all sorts of yeah, like there's all sorts
Speaker 1: of areas. So it's kind of it's moved a lot
Speaker 1: of the speculation actually out of bitcoin and across the
Speaker 1: crypto market cap, and the issue there is a lot
Speaker 1: of the stuff that flowed to isn't really I'd say
Speaker 1: for most of it, there's not really much there, you know,
Speaker 1: so that money's gone, Yeah, but it was just unfortunate,
Speaker 1: and so it's momentum driven. I think there's obviously been
Speaker 1: a lot of momentum outside of crypto, and that's part
Speaker 1: of the reason as you were selling into as the
Speaker 1: crypto market sold off, you could rotate into AI. I
Speaker 1: mean that's been I mean, that was kind of the
Speaker 1: story of hyper liquid, right, it was it was the
Speaker 1: first decks that gave you exposure to on crypto. Right,
Speaker 1: So in the fall you could chase precious metals on chain.
Speaker 1: Earlier this year you could buy oil futures when they
Speaker 1: were closed in other markets, and then later in the
Speaker 1: year you could buy the AI purpose as well, and
Speaker 1: so it created this avenue to continue to chase momentum
Speaker 1: outside of kind of your traditional crypto asset classes and
Speaker 1: I would suspect that, you know, and this happens with everything.
Speaker 1: You know, capital rotates into some traits. It wrote, if
Speaker 1: you're buying something, you're selling something else. And so right
Speaker 1: now crypto has been what's being sold. I suspect that
Speaker 1: some time you will get a rotation back into that.
Speaker 1: You generally need something that's going to reignite some momentum there.
Speaker 1: People aren't just all of a sudden going to be like, well,
Speaker 1: hey it's been great, let's buy crypto.
Speaker 2: You need a catalyst, like the Clarity Act would be
Speaker 2: a nice catalyst.
Speaker 1: I think the Clarity Act could be a catalyst earlier
Speaker 1: this year. So again, like crypto momentum driven, very narratives driven.
Speaker 1: So like I'm trying to think the previous psychle what
Speaker 1: was the narrative Web three was one meme coins. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd say big picture Web three. That was like kind
Speaker 1: of the big narrative. This most current cycle was institutional adoption, right,
Speaker 1: and so earlier in the spring, you know, bitcoin actually
Speaker 1: traded from in the month of April, it traded from
Speaker 1: about the low sixties and then up to about eighty
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars. And right around that time we had
Speaker 1: officially launched trading. There was another large, you know, high
Speaker 1: profile ETP launch at another firm, right, and so you
Speaker 1: kind of had a re emergence of the institutional adoption
Speaker 1: narrative there. And so I think if the Clarity Act
Speaker 1: would pass, you would kind of see like a return
Speaker 1: to that narrative. And so that's good because at this
Speaker 1: point the sellers seemed to be pretty exhausted, so I
Speaker 1: think that would potentially be a short term catalyst. We
Speaker 1: actually we did some work on this. We look at
Speaker 1: the daily odds, the polymarket odsah and we compared that
Speaker 1: with like long and short futures being liquidated, the dollar,
Speaker 1: oil inflation break evens, and the NASDAC And so we
Speaker 1: did a regression analysis to see, you know, how much
Speaker 1: of the change in each of these different factors contributes
Speaker 1: to like the change or can be attributed to like
Speaker 1: that day's change in bitcoins price. And so we found
Speaker 1: year to date, and this is a couple of weeks
Speaker 1: old now, but on average, clarity odds rising or falling
Speaker 1: could only explain about four percent of bitcoins daily price move,
Speaker 1: and so we don't think and again now it's easy
Speaker 1: to say that now when people don't think it's going
Speaker 1: to pass. But when there are periods when it was
Speaker 1: rising and so it didn't appear to be kind of
Speaker 1: driving crypto prices higher, and so again it could lend.
Speaker 1: If it were to pass, you could see a re
Speaker 1: edition of the institutional adoption narrative.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I hope to your point, like it would
Speaker 2: flow back to the ethos bitcoin eat smart contracts. You know,
Speaker 2: it's tokenization versus the mean coins exactly.
Speaker 1: You you want to add it to like the areas
Speaker 1: that have utility. Yeah, and then you know not to mention.
Speaker 2: You know, bitcoin miners and I've spoken to some of them,
Speaker 2: they started pivoting to AI during that period, which look,
Speaker 2: I understand they got to make money, they got get
Speaker 2: ennery revenue. But hopefully as we're heading back to the
Speaker 2: next having they start to.
Speaker 1: So this is if I have to think about the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight to twenty twenty thirty two cycle, I
Speaker 1: think institutional adoption narrative is going to be a flight out.
Speaker 1: I think the narrative of that cycle is going to
Speaker 1: be the pivot from AI back to bitcoin. And not
Speaker 1: because I embarish on AI at all. Right, there's a
Speaker 1: bottleneck in compute right now, and so companies that have
Speaker 1: available compute that they can reconfigure. Right, you can't just
Speaker 1: like turn your mining operation to AI. But you have
Speaker 1: the energy resources, you have a lot of similar infrastructure, right.
Speaker 1: They're currently they're seeing that there's a lot of bottlem there.
Speaker 1: You can make a lot of money doing inference high
Speaker 1: performance computing, right, and so, but we're seeing competition from China,
Speaker 1: you know, and things like that. Bottlenecks are always temporary.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is a today thing. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying it's a tomorrow thing again, and I'm not bearish AI.
Speaker 1: But over time, I think the bottleneck does get resolved.
Speaker 1: And so if you're running a data center, whether you're
Speaker 1: focused on mining or high performance computing, you want your
Speaker 1: utilization to be at the highest rate it can be.
Speaker 1: You want to be at all hours a day making
Speaker 1: money some side of money. And so again, if that
Speaker 1: bottleneck does kind of break up, maybe there's more competition
Speaker 1: for those inference contracts, right, So that drives now that
Speaker 1: costs the revenue you can get from down. I think
Speaker 1: that starts to kind of pivot back to its Bitcoin
Speaker 1: and again, at bitcoins price is higher, it automatically starts
Speaker 1: doing that. So I think that the twenty twenty eight
Speaker 1: to twenty thirty two narrative could be the pivot back
Speaker 1: to bitcoin. And then I'm curious.
Speaker 2: You know, with the AI agentic economy, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of firms building AI agentic crypto wallets, different types of
Speaker 2: blockchain solutions for them. I don't know if that's going
Speaker 2: to take off, but that could also be a big
Speaker 2: crypt AI needs crypto or blockchain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they still be like similar. I think
Speaker 1: there will always be this kind of it's similar infrastructure
Speaker 1: and the same way that you know, excluding AI right
Speaker 1: Historically minors like you mind when it's profitable, you shut
Speaker 1: down time for early when it's not. I think that's
Speaker 1: really the same. Like they're doing the same thing. Instead
Speaker 1: of just shutting down, they're pivoting their resources elsewhere, and
Speaker 1: so I think that will maintain. I'm actually I'm less.
Speaker 1: I love like the idea behind it. I love like
Speaker 1: the agentic commerce trading in crypto. I see you got
Speaker 1: a copy of Doom up there. I love sci fi.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm there yet. I don't know
Speaker 1: if AI agents need to transact in cryptocurrencies. There's an
Speaker 1: entire massive hedge fund industry, high frequency trading, where computers
Speaker 1: are already transacting in financial markets and they seem to
Speaker 1: be doing it fine without cryptocurrency. So I don't know
Speaker 1: if there's like this case where every AI agent needs
Speaker 1: its own you know, it needs to transact in crypto
Speaker 1: because it can't pass KYC. AI agents are ultimately deployed
Speaker 1: by people, and so if they're trading on your half
Speaker 1: or your business behalf, you could just set up their
Speaker 1: API to your existing account wherever it is. But I
Speaker 1: love the idea, I love the imagination, and I hate
Speaker 1: to be like a Debbie Downer, but I do want
Speaker 1: to keep it really and that's why I like to focus,
Speaker 1: like what's a realistic thing for like three years out,
Speaker 1: five years out, maybe like twenty years out. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: we have there's just billions of like autonomous agents interacting
Speaker 1: in the economy. But I think in the short term
Speaker 1: kind of the marriage between infrastructure and serving mining and
Speaker 1: serving AI data centers and mining is like a more
Speaker 1: realistic kind of marriage of the two.
Speaker 2: That's great perspective, good balance, I think, versus all the
Speaker 2: stuff that's out there. Right, So uh, Jim, great stuff.
Speaker 2: Got some wrap up questions here for you. First, are
Speaker 2: you an early bird or night out?
Speaker 1: So historically I'm an early bird, but I have a
Speaker 1: five year old and a nine month old, and so
Speaker 1: at this point, any chance I can get to sleep,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take it. If I'm on the train, I'm
Speaker 1: falling asleep, you know, So I'm an opportunistic sleep right now.
Speaker 2: I've been there, done that, So I totally relate window
Speaker 2: seat aisle.
Speaker 1: Actually ale, which is kind of weird, but the planes
Speaker 1: have gotten so cramped. Yeah, and so like I hate
Speaker 1: like you're like molded up against the window. At least
Speaker 1: the aisle your your you get you get banged a little, but.
Speaker 2: You know, you can stretch out your legs get exactly text,
Speaker 2: email or call.
Speaker 1: If a call is probably better, you know is look
Speaker 1: at nine million texts I'm sure saying with your text
Speaker 1: change with your friends, you open your phone, there's like
Speaker 1: a million text messages. It's hard to keep try of everything.
Speaker 1: So a call is probably the best way. What's one
Speaker 1: company outside of Crypto? You admire the company I admire
Speaker 1: outside of Crypto, So you know, going back to my
Speaker 1: kind of origins is like a growth tech investor guy.
Speaker 1: And you know, this is probably a very cliche answer.
Speaker 1: I'm like a huge Elon Musk fan boy, and so
Speaker 1: I think, and I'm also a sci fi yeah guy,
Speaker 1: and so I love the like it's really not one company,
Speaker 1: but obviously what he's doing with SpaceX, what he's done
Speaker 1: with x AI, the Tesla, it's I think what he's
Speaker 1: the idea that he's always kind of he's solving problems,
Speaker 1: I mean, boring company like these these are like ideas
Speaker 1: that if someone told you about, you'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I saw that in a movie something, you know, and
Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting. So I think that's like
Speaker 1: kind of what, you know, the appeal to kind of
Speaker 1: the the Elon muscaverse of companies is to me, it's
Speaker 1: really really forward thinking. It's straight out of a sci
Speaker 1: fi buck.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's actually doing it, which is incredible. If you
Speaker 2: can have if you excuse me, if you can have
Speaker 2: dinner with any person living or dead, who would be
Speaker 2: in a maybe Teylan.
Speaker 1: No, I would probably kind of corny. I would probably
Speaker 1: want to do like a relative, you know, someone like
Speaker 1: I never met, you know, like two hundred years ago.
Speaker 1: You know, I think that'd be pretty interesting. You know.
Speaker 1: Maybe so my my my mother's family, there's Scottish and
Speaker 1: Irish immigrants. You know, they came over with the turn
Speaker 1: of the century and they so her father's family owned
Speaker 1: like a tanning business in Jersey City, and so like
Speaker 1: people would go and you know, catch like animals and
Speaker 1: like bring them like their pelts, and they would like
Speaker 1: turn them into whatever tanner does. And so it'd be
Speaker 1: cool to like meet like my grandfather's parents and be
Speaker 1: like or Grandpa whoever was, you know, and kind of
Speaker 1: like get their take on the world. So he's kind
Speaker 1: of corny to go with a family member, but you know, well.
Speaker 2: You know that's interesting because there's concept that's been talked
Speaker 2: about now where because of AI, you can upload your
Speaker 2: conscience so to speak, like it just downloads as much
Speaker 2: as it can about you and your kids you're going
Speaker 2: to and you can pull up an avatar of you
Speaker 2: and talk to you to a certain degree.
Speaker 1: I love that idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Which it's a brave new world that will be
Speaker 2: live in. Yeah, best advice you've ever gotten, I'll keep
Speaker 2: it real.
Speaker 1: From an investing perspective, you can this is a former boss.
Speaker 1: You can be wrong, but you can't stay wrong, and
Speaker 1: so you're never going to be right one hundred percent
Speaker 1: of the time in your investment decisions, and it usually
Speaker 1: doesn't pay it a double down, you know. So if
Speaker 1: you're wrong, admit it and move on to the next idea.
Speaker 2: Good stuff, Jim, Thank you so much, pleasure, and I'm
Speaker 2: looking forward to our next conversation and the future updates
Speaker 2: around Charlie Schwab's crypto initiatives and products and much more.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me on
Speaker 1: looking forward as well.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for tuning in. Please hit the
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