WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.319 If I have to think about the twenty twenty eight 2 00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:05.000 to twenty twenty thirty two cycle, I think the narrative 3 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:07.519 of that cycle is going to be the pivot from 4 00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:11.839 AI back to bitcoin. There's a bottleneck in compute right now. 5 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.519 I'm not bearish AI, but over time, I think the 6 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:19.120 bottleneck does get resolved. So if you're running a data center, 7 00:00:19.239 --> 00:00:22.280 you want your utilization to be at the highest rate 8 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:24.879 it can be. If that bottleneck does kind of break up, 9 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:28.000 maybe there's more competition for those inference contracts, right so 10 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:30.719 that drives now the revenue can get from down. I 11 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.920 think that starts to kind of pivot back to a bitcoin. 12 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:41.600 This episode is brought to you by I Trust Capital. 13 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:44.600 I Trust Capital allows you to invest in crypto as 14 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:47.520 well as precious metals like gold and silver via an 15 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:51.079 IRA and this gives you huge tax advantages, so you 16 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:55.759 can invest in over ninety crypto assets including bitcoin, etherorem x, 17 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:58.640 or pie, Solana, and many more. You also get access 18 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:02.079 to stable coins such as certain USDC and ripples r 19 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:05.200 L USD. And as it relates to precious metals, you 20 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:08.159 can invest in gold and silver and these are the 21 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:11.359 physical assets, so you're not investing in paper gold and silver, 22 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:14.359 So on this platform you can redeem the gold and 23 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:18.519 silver if you choose to, and not many platforms offer that. Now, 24 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:22.239 the big advantage to investing via I trust Capital's IRA 25 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.200 is the huge tax advantages. Many of you know you 26 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:29.200 incur capital gains taxes when you sell at a gain. Well, 27 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:31.640 you can minimize the effect of some of that by 28 00:01:31.879 --> 00:01:34.319 doing it via an IRA, especially if you have a 29 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.359 long term view on crypto as well as precious metals, 30 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:40.040 and you can buy and sell crypto in precious metals 31 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:42.359 twenty four to seven. It's low cost and a monthly 32 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:45.079 feet So this is a great option to get exposure 33 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:48.359 to these two great asset classes. And in addition, they 34 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:52.040 have a great custody solution. It's called Premium custody account, 35 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:56.599 so it uses institutional great crypto custody such as coinbas Prime, 36 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.959 which black Rock leverages. I Trust also uses fidelity digital 37 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:02.680 assets as well as fireblocks, and it's a closed loop 38 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.239 system so if someone hacks it to your account, they 39 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:08.199 can't withdraw funds. I believe this is the second safest 40 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:11.400 way to custody your assets, right behind self custody, where 41 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:14.080 you control the private keys and within the custody account 42 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:15.879 you could buy and sell twenty four to seven. It's 43 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:19.120 low fees, so this is a great option for custody 44 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:21.400 of your assets and you can sleep at night knowing 45 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:25.960 that you're getting the institutional grade custodial services. So once again, 46 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:29.000 two great products here from I Trust Capital, the IRRA 47 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:31.759 where you can roll over your existing four one K 48 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:35.120 or IRA to I Trust Capitalist version, getting the huge 49 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.520 tax advantages and the institutional custody and folks, if you 50 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:41.360 sign up with my link at I Trustcapital dot com 51 00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:44.319 slash go slash Thinking Crypto, you could get one hundred 52 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.280 dollars funding bonus. I have an account with I Trust Capital, 53 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:49.719 so I encourage you to go check out I Trust Capital, 54 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:52.599 learn about their services and see if it's right for you. Again, 55 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:54.879 you can get one hundred dollars funding bonus by signing 56 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:57.639 up via my link, which is I Trustcapital dot com 57 00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:02.080 slash go slash Thinking Crypto will be in the description. Hey, folks, 58 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:05.000 welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm Tony Edward and 59 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:08.120 we're recording at Station three in New York's Financial District. 60 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:10.599 And joining me is Jim Ferrioli, who's the head of 61 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:15.039 crypto Research at Charles Schwap. Prior to joining Schwap, Jim 62 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:18.639 spent over a decade at Morgan Stanley, where he was 63 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:23.719 a mid cap equity portfolio manager and cryptocurrency strategist. Jim, 64 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:24.439 great to have you. 65 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:25.800 Thanks for having me on. 66 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:28.479 So Jim, where do you hail from and how did 67 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:30.759 you make your way into tradify working at Morgan Stanley. 68 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:35.000 So, I'm a New Jersey guy. I was born in 69 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:40.840 northern New Jersey. I live there now, you know. I 70 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:46.039 grew up there. I started my career in finance at 71 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:50.199 Morgan Stanley. I actually started as a financial advisor, you know, 72 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:54.960 and eventually spent the better half of my career so 73 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:59.520 far at that firm. Eventually I was in the CIO office, 74 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.039 I was running a MidCap portfolio, and I was also 75 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:08.199 doing the crypto research. Last summer I joined Schwab to 76 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:11.599 build out their crypto research. As Schwab was beginning to 77 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:16.040 in the process of building out their crypto trading platform 78 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:20.160 and after having a pretty big presence within the ETP 79 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:23.959 space about twenty percent of the spot ETP assets those 80 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:27.040 actually come from Schwab clients, and so with the launch 81 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:29.120 of crypto trading. They wanted to bring someone in who 82 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:31.319 could actually cover the asset class for the firm. 83 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:35.319 Where along your journey did you discover crypto? All was 84 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:39.079 fascinated by folks origin story around bitcoin and so forth. 85 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:40.439 What was your aha moment? 86 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:45.319 So classic New Jersey stereotypes, as we were just talking offline. 87 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:49.800 Earlier in my twenties, I rented a house down the 88 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:54.040 shore in Manasquan and so I first heard of bitcoin 89 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:57.399 in the summer of twenty twelve. It was trading between 90 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:00.839 six and nine dollars ever your time. Unfortunately I did 91 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:03.120 not invest in bitcoin at the time, but it had 92 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:05.480 gone on it That was one of the early bull runs. 93 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:09.120 It was all over CNBC and so I kind of 94 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:11.240 looked into it and said, like, what is this bitcoin thing? 95 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:13.720 Should I buy some? And then you know, I actually 96 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:15.480 saw it, So you have to get this thing called 97 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.360 a wallet. There's like this exchange in Japan you can 98 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:21.360 buy it on. And it was like, all right, never mine, 99 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:23.480 you know, and I didn't really think about it much. 100 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:28.439 And then fast forward a few years later. It was 101 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:31.000 the kind of twenty seventeen bull run, and it went 102 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.839 from about three thousand dollars to about eighteen thousand dollars. 103 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:35.399 I was in business school at the time. I was 104 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:38.639 working at Morgan Stanley, and you know, there was this 105 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:40.879 four bull run and it was starting to get attention 106 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:44.800 from financial advisors and different people on Wall Street. You know, 107 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:47.120 you were hearing about it in the news, and I 108 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:49.439 was a pretty big skeptic, and I said, like, this 109 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:54.600 is fake internet money. There's nothing here. It's some of 110 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:59.560 the I went to. There were several electrical engineers from 111 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:01.439 Connet and that I went to business school with. And 112 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:04.040 if you recall, a lot of the early people that 113 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:08.040 were interested in crypto were more of the engineering and 114 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:10.399 so a bunch of them they had acquired it. They 115 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:11.920 got it early on and they were like, yeah, we 116 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:13.399 have this thing called bitcoin. One guy was like I 117 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:15.920 have six of them. A wow, you got to sell that, 118 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.279 you know, that's tuition, Like what are you doing? Like 119 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:22.040 this is fake money. And it was funny because you know, 120 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:26.920 that market played itself out. There was the correction, but 121 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:29.360 then after that I was like, you know, this was 122 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.800 you know, six dollars in twenty twelve, it reached eighteen 123 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:36.040 thousand dollars. Even after the bear market. I was like, 124 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:40.079 I should like this is interesting, like what's going on, 125 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:41.920 And so that's what I actually started to learn a 126 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:44.319 bit more about it get interested about it. In twenty seventeen, 127 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:49.519 twenty eighteen, twenty twenty, I started working in the Morgan 128 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:54.639 Stanley CIO office. My colleague had begun actually publishing crypto 129 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:58.279 research for that firm in twenty eighteen, and so we 130 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:00.439 were on the same team and it was an area 131 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:02.720 was interested in. I'm more of a growth investor, right, 132 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:05.000 so I always wanted to you know, kind of learn 133 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:08.480 about the technology things like that, and so that was 134 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.040 really the interest from my side, and so I kind 135 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:12.199 of went to him and said like, hey, you know, 136 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:15.079 I'd love to get involved. And you know, in corporate America, 137 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:18.279 if you offer to help anyone, they're never going to 138 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:20.399 say no. You know, here's a laundry list of things 139 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:22.800 I don't want to do. You know, do these for me. 140 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:25.439 And so over the years that's kind of how it built. 141 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:28.399 But that that was where the interest came from. Really 142 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:31.879 understanding like the interest from a technology investing perspective. I 143 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:35.240 think it's a really interesting technology and it's kind of 144 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:38.879 to have been following the space for several years it's 145 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:41.120 I think it's really interesting to see where we are 146 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:44.279 now because forever people always talked about like, oh, once 147 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:47.920 like bitcoin gets adopted, once blockchain technology gets adopted, and 148 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.680 now we're actually like, this is the moment financial institutions 149 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.279 across the world are actually not just offering crypto products 150 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.800 to their clients, but like trying to adopt the technology. 151 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.000 So it's it's I think it's a really interesting time 152 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.439 and that's really kind of what where my interests stemmed from. Oh. 153 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.920 Absolutely, And to your point, you know, for a while, 154 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:08.000 a lot of people were like, what are these coins? 155 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:11.519 It looked like scams, but they were missing the technology piece, 156 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:13.639 and I think to your point, that's where people are 157 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.279 like having that aha moment, Oh, we can actually build 158 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:19.759 on these blockchains. We can put the markets on the blockchains, 159 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:22.040 and all the incredible innovation that's happening now. 160 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:24.480 It's yeah, it's funny. So even if as late as 161 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:28.639 early twenty twenty four before the Genius Act passed, it 162 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:32.360 passed in the summer of or sorry, summer twenty twenty five, 163 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.440 Genius Act passed so early in twenty twenty five, people 164 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:38.679 would say, like stable coins, there's still nothing there and 165 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:41.679 as soon as that legislation passed, you know, it was 166 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:43.879 kind of like this this light bulb turned on because 167 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.159 then financial institutions were like, well, we can use this, 168 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:49.000 we can do something with this, and like the use 169 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.519 case was clearly there, it was just you didn't have 170 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:54.440 this kind of broad mainstream adoption outside of kind of 171 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.919 your crypto user. And so I think it's very much 172 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.480 the same, like once you kind of see that there 173 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:05.399 is a path. People have understood the frictionless technology of 174 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:09.200 blockchain for many years, and so I think it's the 175 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:11.399 same thing. We saw it work with stable coins and 176 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:13.919 now we're seeing tokenizing real world assets that it's like 177 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.720 there's clearly something here, there are benefits to it, and 178 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:19.200 so I think that's the story. 179 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.039 And do you think the connection is being made by 180 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:26.399 institutions and retail investors that you have blockchain, but you 181 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.840 have the coins, and that they're one in a sense 182 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:32.200 that you can bet on the blockchain by holding the coin. 183 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:34.840 I think that distinction was not clear for a lot 184 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:35.200 of people. 185 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:38.320 Yeah, and that's actually what I love about it. So 186 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.399 having an equities background, if you are going to invest 187 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:45.320 in AI, right, how do you invest in AI? You 188 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.600 buy Nvidia right now, maybe you buy a memory stock 189 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.320 like Micron, right you buy a hyperscaler. You're not actually 190 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:55.679 investing in AI. You're investing in a company that either 191 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:59.039 produces a product or a component that's used in building 192 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:02.519 these systems. And that's what I love about the blockchain aspect, 193 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:06.440 where if you're buying the token, you're actually it's directly 194 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:10.120 this is how you actually interact with the infrastructure itself, 195 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:13.440 So you're actually investing in the technology itself. And so again, yeah, 196 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:15.600 if if you think that there's something here, you think 197 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:18.799 the adoption is going to grow, you actually by having 198 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:22.320 that interest in the token like that, that's the direct 199 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:25.639 exposure to it. If there's more demand, there's more growth 200 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:27.399 on these networks, there's going to be more demand for 201 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.559 their native currencies, and so I that's that's why I 202 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:32.840 think it's interesting from an investment standpoint. 203 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:36.440 Pardon the interruption. Hi, I'm Tony. I'm the host of 204 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:38.919 the Thinking Crypto podcast. I wanted to ask you if 205 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:41.360 you can please support the podcast by hitting the like 206 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:43.919 button subscribing. If you haven't as yet, you can leave 207 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.080 a comment below as well. And if you're listening on 208 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:49.159 a podcast platform such as Spotify, Apple or wherever you 209 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:52.159 get your podcasts. Please be sure to follow and hit 210 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:54.279 the five star rating. I'll let you get back to 211 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:57.240 the content. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's fascinating because 212 00:10:57.519 --> 00:10:59.879 for the first time ever you can invest in a protocol. 213 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:01.279 You know, you go back to your early days of 214 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.440 the Internet, you couldn't invest in t c ip per se. 215 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:07.480 Obviously you can invest in Internet companies, Google and so forth. 216 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:09.799 But for the first time you can have access to 217 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:10.399 the protocol. 218 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:15.000 It's interesting and I think it's it provides a different 219 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:19.639 lens of investing too, because I don't know how much 220 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:22.120 of the value of the Internet would have kind of 221 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.799 accrued to like that core structure. But I do think blockchains, 222 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:31.080 it's not it's different, obviously different than the Internet, and 223 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:34.240 to continue to interact on them, you need to have 224 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:37.159 their tokens and so like, there is a way of 225 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:40.759 monetizing that to an extent. But I also do think 226 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:43.879 that there's a lot of layer one blockchains and you 227 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:46.799 certainly don't need that many layer onelection So you're right, 228 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:50.840 there's there's been a couple couple proven business models or 229 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:52.879 you know, protocol models, whatever you want to call them 230 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:56.600 because they're not all technically businesses that have emerged, and 231 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:00.279 that's resulted in a lot of copycats. Right, So layer 232 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:03.519 one blockchain, people know, is like a proven idea at 233 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:05.639 this point, and so you have you have so many 234 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:08.240 and I don't know if there's really that much happening. 235 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:11.480 Actually I do know there's not much happening outside of 236 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:16.960 the large ones, and so I think that's the difference, 237 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:18.960 like that you have a lot of like every year 238 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.799 there's a new decks, like a new centralized exchange, and 239 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:23.879 it's like, this is a model that we know that works, 240 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:26.679 so we're going to just kind of keep recreating it. 241 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:29.559 And so I think you need some consolidation there. I 242 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:31.639 think it needs to look like kind of more traditional industries, 243 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:34.919 right like you have in any other industry, there's essentially 244 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:36.799 like two or three large players and that a bunch 245 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.279 of specialized ones. I think layer one blockchain should look 246 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:42.879 like that. I think kind of as you get broader 247 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.960 defied development on chain finance, whatever you want to call 248 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.879 it now Web three, I'm actually still a big Web 249 00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:52.559 three bowl, you know. Again, I think like you'll have 250 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:57.519 kind of different areas like lending, maybe trading, social if 251 00:12:57.519 --> 00:12:59.360 that ever comes back, right, and there will be like 252 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.639 two or three leaders and then some specialized players, and 253 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:04.399 I think it's just gonna look like kind of every 254 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:08.480 other industry. Where again that's in general the kind of 255 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:09.279 the industry. 256 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:11.480 Makeup that absolutely makes sense because to your point, there's 257 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:14.360 so many brock coins out there, it's hard to keep up. 258 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:16.799 I believe on coin market caps in that thousands now 259 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:21.159 or probably more so hard. Question let's say, is that 260 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:24.200 consolidation ten years from now, do you think it's going 261 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:27.639 to be twenty blockchains that are primarily being used across 262 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:28.960 the globe by different industries. 263 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:32.840 Yeah, I think so. If I don't even know, yeah, 264 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:34.519 maybe maybe twenty is a fair enough because I think 265 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:38.200 there will always be the specialized blockchain and it's gonna 266 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:40.679 have it. It's very specific use case. I mean, if 267 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:44.279 I think of the current makeup right in public blockchains 268 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:48.840 right now, ethereum is obviously the largest, so it's got 269 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:52.799 the leading market share, solonas emerging as the higher transaction 270 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:56.840 speed may be geared more for trading, right. I think 271 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:59.639 it's interesting if you look at real world assets token 272 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:02.120 is that sets most of that's on ethereum. You look 273 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:06.159 at Solana, right, Solana kind of the primary use case 274 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:09.600 has been mean coins to date, but it did serve 275 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:12.360 it as kind of a good test case that they 276 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:16.320 can't that the infrastructure can handle a lot of high 277 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:19.440 frequency trading things like that, the high but you say, 278 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.960 like active trading, and so again, now the use case 279 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:25.679 appears to be moving towards that, and so you know, 280 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:27.960 again like the everyone's going to find their niche, maybe 281 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:32.200 Ethereum to the general purpose smart contract platform. Solana might 282 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:34.759 be more geared towards trading. And then you have Tron, 283 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:36.960 which is really a pure poly stable, a staple cooin 284 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:38.960 network at this way, and so so I think again 285 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:43.360 it's it's already moving in that direction. XRP Ledger is 286 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.279 making the shift from kind of a payments network to 287 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:50.679 more of a stable coin transaction network. And then the 288 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:53.559 dt CC, you know, they they announced that they're working 289 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:55.559 with a lot of different block changes because it's it's 290 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:58.840 so big, and you know, they actually announced their work 291 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:03.120 with Stellar, right, and so again I think it's kind 292 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:07.600 of already in that the winners have clearly been established, 293 00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:11.480 and so I think like there's some clear losers that 294 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:15.480 have been established. You know Cardano launched, it was supposed 295 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:17.639 to be in this competitive ethereum, and it's just it's 296 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:20.399 not really no disrespect because I'm sure a lot of 297 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:22.519 effort went into building it, right, but it just it 298 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.679 hasn't captured shair. There's not really much going on, and 299 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.679 so I think it's it that that shift's already happening, 300 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:31.159 and so maybe there'll be twenty layer ones, but I'd 301 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:32.879 say majority of the activity is going to be on 302 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.279 kind of like maybe the top four, top three. 303 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:37.879 Yeah, and it's just a natural part of the business 304 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.240 cycle in the free market, right, and the clear winners 305 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:43.000 and losers. You know, I think a bit of the 306 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:46.960 search engine wars in the early nineties we had ax, Geves, 307 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:51.759 Lykos and some other random search engines will Google, Yahoo, 308 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:54.480 and I believe m a sen where the three leaders 309 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.879 that came out of that, and Google now just dominates 310 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:57.399 for the most part. 311 00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:59.519 Yeah. The best thing about the search engine thing is 312 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.799 we've actually gone a full circle with asked Jeeves. You 313 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:05.360 actually had to you were asking you questions, and now 314 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:08.039 you know, with the prevalence of kind of ll ms, 315 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:11.080 we're back to asking the Internet questions, which which is 316 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:13.240 kind of fun. But I also think that's an interesting 317 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:15.759 analogy because you had in the late nineties, you had 318 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:18.480 the emergence of all these companies. You had the dot 319 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.919 com bubble and a big bear market, and following that 320 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.519 then you got really great tech companies that are now 321 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.000 some of the biggest companies today Google, Netflix, And so 322 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:30.960 it's not too dissimilar as to what's going on right now, 323 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.559 because you know, if we were talking this time last year, 324 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:37.240 no one saw, you know, thought the baker market was 325 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:39.399 going to wipe out. You know, people would be leaving 326 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:41.799 the crypto industry who'd been building, you know, for the 327 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:46.279 past decade, right, But that's happened, and and and it's 328 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:48.960 you know, recessions in any sense, whether it's a broad 329 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.440 based economic recession, whether it's solely on the crypto industry, 330 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.320 which is what I would say we're in. You know, 331 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:58.960 they're painful, but they're necessary. They kind of wash out 332 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:04.839 the excess leverage, which they kind of i'd say, shift 333 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:09.640 capital into maybe new avenues of growth and out of 334 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:12.680 avenues that are no longer growing. And so it's painful, 335 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:14.359 but I think it's healthy. Now. 336 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:17.319 You mentioned the market cycles, and you know Bigcoin has 337 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:19.279 tend to follow a four year cycle. Do you think 338 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:22.039 that persists over time where it might be changed due 339 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.720 to the growth of the asset, more liquidity, moreholders. 340 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:28.720 And things like that. It's a I mean, the biggest 341 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:32.000 debate in crypto has always been, you know, will will 342 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.279 the cycle persist? And I think it was notable how 343 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:38.279 last summer, you know, everyone was saying with the emergency 344 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:42.039 of companies like Strategy and other digital ausatruture companies ets 345 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:45.519 that there would just be this constant demand in spot markets. 346 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:50.920 I do think the having cycle will persist, but I 347 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.240 don't think it looks the same way it did in 348 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:56.599 each cycle. I think fundamentally, and a lot of people 349 00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:58.880 on Wall Street don't like this because it's such a dumb, 350 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:03.400 easy explanation, but it's it's also very fundamentally true. Like 351 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:08.559 for anything, there's a kind of a equilibrium price between 352 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:12.000 supply and demand, right, that's the bitcoin aving cycle. 353 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:12.359 Yeah. 354 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:16.960 Right, It's so simple and stupid, but it's kind of true. 355 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:20.519 Over the long term, you still have the same people 356 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.720 acquiring bitcoin that started acquiring it in twenty ten, they're 357 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.559 still acquiring it today. Every year. You actually have some 358 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:29.319 new people coming in and I'm not saying like adoption 359 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.079 is going to like explode from here. But the case 360 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:34.599 I'm making is over the long term demand is actually 361 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:38.319 relatively stable for bitcoin, and we know that the new 362 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:41.599 supply is disinflationary, and so there's this kind of longer term, 363 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.160 permanent mismatch. And so I think, like, again it's really 364 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:49.119 dumb and really simplistic, but there is an equilibrium between 365 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:51.839 supply demand every four years. You have to find that 366 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.200 new equilibrium price. 367 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:57.240 Plus the mining operation costs, right, they run exactly that, 368 00:18:57.839 --> 00:18:59.400 and so like that's the other side. 369 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.559 I mean that supports that price the cost of producing 370 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:07.359 and so what I would you know, what I would 371 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.440 expect in the future is the having cycle will continue, Right, 372 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:14.119 you have to find this new equilibrium price post having, 373 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:17.839 I'm not saying, and we already saw it. We used 374 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.559 to see like ten x ten thousand x cycles followed 375 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.359 by like an eighty five percent draw down from twenty 376 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:26.839 twenty two to last year's peak. We did eight x, 377 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:30.720 which is still good for four years, right, but you 378 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.599 know it's much smaller. Bitcoins volatility has significantly fallen during 379 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:37.359 this period too. So the SNB five hundred is like 380 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.960 a tenvole asset Bitcoin, this cycle is about a forty 381 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:42.920 vall asset, so it's about four times as volatile. It's 382 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:44.720 the S and P five hundred. Last cycle, it was 383 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:47.880 more like a you know, fifty sixty and the cycle 384 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:51.920 before maybe seventy eight. Right, So it's volatilities coming down 385 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.400 as it's getting bigger. It's hard for a one point 386 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:57.400 two trillion dollar asset to ten x right. That requires 387 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.200 a lot of money, And so I would expect the 388 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:04.000 having cycle to persist again, maybe less exponential moves up, 389 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:09.279 less deep draw downs. But the interesting thing for me 390 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:12.480 is I do expect over time, not like in the 391 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:17.720 immediate future, you will see correlation of different cryptocurrencies full 392 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:20.839 right now everything is essentially linked to big Yeah. 393 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:22.200 I was going to ask you about that, yeah, because 394 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:24.079 Bitcoin seems to be the lead dog and all the 395 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:27.240 all coins follows, so to speak. Right, So my next 396 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:29.240 question was going to be, it's going to be decoupling 397 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:31.759 where like the amount of building on Eth and the 398 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:35.359 amount of value on Eth, it just decouples, it breaks 399 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:36.160 away exactly. 400 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:39.799 So if I in using Eth as an example, right, 401 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.519 So last year, what I when I think is smart 402 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.599 contract platforms, I used GDP right, the sum of all 403 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:49.119 fees across the platform as a proxy for economic activity 404 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:53.279 on that platform. And so last year about fifty percent 405 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:56.279 of that came from staple coin transactions, twenty percent came 406 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.400 from liquid staking, and another twenty percent lending. Right, and 407 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.799 then so the balances things like trading and then just 408 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:07.000 like kind of core infrastructure and really small things. All 409 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.000 of that activity is still dependent on the price of bitcoin, 410 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:14.319 right as bitcoin's rising. Stable coins are primarily an onboard 411 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.359 I mean, like everyone loves the story that it's for 412 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:19.480 crosswater transactions, like you're sending it to your family member 413 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:21.519 who lives in Peru or something, you know, But it's 414 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.160 like what people are really doing is they're onboarding there, 415 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:25.880 and they're either at some point going to swap it 416 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:29.039 into like a volatile cryptocurrency, or they're pledging it as 417 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:32.559 collateral in a dex. And so again it's as kind 418 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:38.119 of sentiment rises, there's more demand for specultive activity specifically 419 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:40.920 on ethereum, right as there's more demand there at the 420 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.799 price of ether rises, right, So now you might want 421 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:47.000 to stake it so you can earn some yield, but 422 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:51.000 you also have a larger value right, if it's gone 423 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:52.759 up in price, and so you might want to put 424 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.319 it in something like ave and earn some interest off 425 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:57.519 and so again, like it's all linked to the price 426 00:21:57.559 --> 00:21:59.440 of bitcoin on the way up, yes, and on the 427 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.759 way down. Yeah, exactly. To your point, tokenization changes that, right, 428 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:06.920 if you're a deposit, if you're tokenizing deposits, if you're 429 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:12.279 tokenizing stocks, doesn't matter what bitcoin's doing, right, you're it's 430 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.240 just it's a completely separate usage. So I think exactly 431 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:20.119 over time they couple. I don't think like anytime soon. 432 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:23.559 I think it's the twenty twenty eight to twenty twenty 433 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:25.480 twenty thirty two cycle. There's still going to be a 434 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:29.720 lot of correlation there. But yeah, I think that's the case. 435 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.000 You know, speaking of tokenization, Jim, it seems that all 436 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.160 of Wall Street, including tarsh Law, Morgan sand everybody is 437 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:38.640 heading in the same direction of looking to put all 438 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:43.240 assets on chain, starting with stocks, ets, money market funds, 439 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:45.200 and so forth. I think black Rock just this week 440 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:47.720 or yesterday announced they launched two new funds. 441 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:50.000 Is this the direction? You know? 442 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:52.559 In ten years, when we look back, it's everything's running 443 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:53.000 on chain. 444 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:56.599 I think that I don't know if I would say everything, 445 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.799 but I think a lot will go on chain. And 446 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:01.279 to be clear, that's not all going to be public blockchains, right, 447 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:04.160 so it's going to be private solutions like can't on network, right, 448 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:09.440 some people might just build their own thing friction lists, settlement, 449 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:15.359 low cost transactions like it's clearly there's something there, and 450 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:17.880 so I would expect over time assets are going to 451 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:21.559 continue to move on chain. Now that the hiccup in 452 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:24.920 the short term is you have completely separate worlds where 453 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:30.759 it's you have a very defined and existing infrastructure that 454 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:32.960 you actually need to build this into, and so I 455 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:35.519 think it will take time. If you go back to 456 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.599 twenty seventeen twenty eighteen, I worked on a trading desk 457 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:42.920 in Morgan Stanley and at the time the TTCC was 458 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:46.960 doing a small tick pilot program. And so this is 459 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.160 a long winded answer, and there's a point I'll get there. 460 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:54.079 But so the point of it was smaller market cap stocks, 461 00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:57.279 instead of having them trade and increments of a cent, 462 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.680 have them trade in increments of five cents, and so 463 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:05.119 that would theoretically build more volume around these different prices, 464 00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:07.039 and so it makes it more liquid. And so it 465 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.680 was a test program. They rolled it out to I 466 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:13.799 forget how many stocks, and they did it for like 467 00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:16.319 a year or two and see if it helped liquidity. 468 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.400 That's essentially what they're doing now. Like they it was like, 469 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:21.440 let's try different things, let's see what works. I think 470 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:24.319 it's going to take some time for all this for 471 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:26.599 firms to kind of realize what's the best way to 472 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.440 do it. But I think that's the roadmap. Right. You're 473 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.599 not just going to day one put everything on the right. 474 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.160 It's it's going to be you're going to try see 475 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:39.119 what works. It's going to be very controlled, and so 476 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:42.079 I think over time you get there. I think it's 477 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:45.039 going to take some time. There are some interesting things 478 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:47.440 to think about as well. Right when you think about 479 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:52.680 maybe an individual investor, the inter day liquidity is not 480 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.880 so much of an issue. Right, If I want to 481 00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:02.039 buy shares of Apple, right, not an endorsement, not but 482 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.799 you know it's it's it's fine, I go in, I 483 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:07.240 put in an order, or or a financial consultant puts 484 00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:09.160 in an order for me, and I think it's one 485 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:12.200 hundred chairs, like right, settle ten chairs for me? It's 486 00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:13.599 probably like two shares. 487 00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:17.440 Right, Yeah, but uh again, so it's a very but 488 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:19.920 when you start looking at these kind of institutional pools 489 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:24.519 of money, it's interesting because instant settlement it actually. 490 00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:27.039 Can be a hurdle for lower liquidity stocks. And this 491 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:30.559 is why prime brokerage businesses exist, right because if you're 492 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:33.200 kind of like in the hedge fund space, your shorting 493 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:37.200 stocks or right, you're borrowing shares from people to short, 494 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:39.640 and so the way that works in prime brokerage is 495 00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:42.039 you kind of like borrow, you do these transactions, and 496 00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:43.960 you settle off at the end of the day. And 497 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.480 that's why that business works. If you're doing kind of 498 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:51.319 stocks with low liquidity and you're instantly settling throughout the day, 499 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:53.799 you might find that like your order books, your your 500 00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:57.000 books are kind of mismatched, and if you lose liquidity 501 00:25:57.079 --> 00:25:59.160 later in the day, that can kind of lead some 502 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:01.720 issues and so like and like use cases like that, 503 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.920 they're probably going to want to leave some of it 504 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:06.559 at least in the short term and the traditional month 505 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:09.000 because like that they do provide a core service to 506 00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:13.160 these kind of institutional investors that they actually benefit from 507 00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:16.400 not having the instant settlement. But I still think over 508 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.319 the time it's going to go that way there's I mean, 509 00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:22.400 there's there's already liquidity providers doing this type of work 510 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:26.599 in kind of the crypto space, right, And so I'm 511 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:28.480 not saying that it doesn't go, but I just think 512 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:31.079 there there's it's going to be a very measured rollout, 513 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:33.319 and it's it's going to be slower. But I mean 514 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:35.440 there's so much money out there that even a very 515 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:39.880 measured rollout can very quickly increase the assets on all 516 00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:40.960 these different blockchains. 517 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.920 And in this phase rollout, right, that's going to take time. 518 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.880 Do you see like a bifurcation issue with the two 519 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:51.319 you have the tokenized version, you have the traditional version. 520 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:56.039 Maybe there's difference in prices and liquidity and some an 521 00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:57.440 arbitrage opportunity. 522 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:00.480 I think, yeah, I mean that that that stands. That 523 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:04.799 stands out to mind. I suspect that would get armed 524 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:06.000 out so quickly. 525 00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:06.440 You know. 526 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.119 I think everyone's kind of got their eye on that, like, oh, 527 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:11.799 there's there's gonna be easy money to be made. I 528 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:18.839 imagine it won't you know. I suspect, uh, it's gonna 529 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:20.960 there's gonna be so many people looking for that that 530 00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:22.039 it's gonna be difficult. 531 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:25.039 I know, the sec they're currently working on legislation around 532 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:28.000 token I securities and much more. And obviously we're recording 533 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.759 this on Tuesday, August fourth, waiting for the Clarity Act. 534 00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:32.519 So do you think, you know, once we have the 535 00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:35.559 guidance from the clarityac itself, any sec that we're going 536 00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:36.960 to see a boom intokenization. 537 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.359 So the way that I think about that is it's 538 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:43.519 similar to kind of the energy industry. So, like the 539 00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:48.119 energy industry was kind of a contentious area, and like 540 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.599 politically again, like I'm not saying this from a partisan perspective, 541 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.920 but if you were going to invest right, you wouldn't 542 00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:59.920 want to kind of make a long term, expensive capex 543 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.119 decision that could change based on the makeup of DC 544 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:05.880 every two to four years. And so that's my fear 545 00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:09.079 without Clarity Act passing. Now, the SEC has said that 546 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.440 they'll kind of adopt rules. They've already done some of that, 547 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:15.920 but again and a new administration could come and they 548 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:20.279 could reinterpret it. And so the benefit of having laws 549 00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:23.720 passed is that you have a clear framework. And so 550 00:28:24.519 --> 00:28:27.720 I think the genie is out of the bottle at 551 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:31.000 this point. I don't think firms that are looking at 552 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:34.759 this are going to turn their backs on it, but 553 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.920 I think, you know, having that get passed would maybe 554 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.960 accelerate some of their longer term plans things like that, 555 00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:45.559 and so I think it's very important. I haven't I'm 556 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:47.880 yet to find someone who doesn't think it should get passed. 557 00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:52.640 You know, it's and again, even if you're anti crypto, 558 00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:57.200 this puts guardrails on it. If you're pro crypto, there's benefits, 559 00:28:57.319 --> 00:29:00.359 and so it seems sensible. I'm not our you know, 560 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.920 our DC and public policy guru, my colleague Bike Townsend is. 561 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.880 But again, like the bill was written by partisan. It 562 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.920 passed the House. I think seventy Democrats joined Republicans to 563 00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:15.160 pass it. It's been worked on by partisan in the 564 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:20.200 Senate for the past year, and so I think it 565 00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:22.559 anything that's kind of getting worked on right now, I 566 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:25.440 don't think that would get delayed. But you know, when 567 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:28.799 companies build plans out there, they're building out five ten years, 568 00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:31.880 and so maybe there's things further out that might get delayed. Oh. 569 00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:35.079 Absolutely, that absolutely makes sense. And hopefully our government can 570 00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:36.559 get it done. They can pass it in a couple 571 00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:38.240 of days ago, a couple of days ago, and they 572 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.559 can release innovation and create jobs and all these great things. 573 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:46.839 Let's talk about Charlie Schwab's respective crypto offerings at a 574 00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:48.480 high level. For the most part, you know, what are 575 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:49.440 you guys currently offering? 576 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.640 So we offer first, we have the spot ETPs. They're 577 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.680 all on our platform, so about twenty percent of those 578 00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:03.119 assets are from Schwab clients. In terms of direct cryptocurrencies, 579 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:06.880 we launched spot trading earlier this year. We've been doing 580 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.279 a rollout every week. We have more clients joining it. 581 00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:13.519 So right now schweb clients can invest directly in bitcoin 582 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:17.880 and ether and so that's where we're at with that. 583 00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:22.640 And as far as demand, I'm curious, you know, what 584 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:25.559 are your client saying we want access to this or 585 00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:27.039 are there some of them who are still in the 586 00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:29.359 FEN saying I'm not sure about this. You know, what 587 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:30.559 kind of sentiment are you seeing. 588 00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:34.599 It's a little bit of both. To think about it. 589 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:38.119 You know, I spent a lot of my time obviously 590 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:40.279 in crypto. You spend a lot of your time in crypto. 591 00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:42.279 But if you're like the average client, like you have 592 00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:45.920 a life outside of crypto, right, it's like, right, you know, 593 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:49.359 a job that's probably not linked to it, and so 594 00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:53.640 I liken it to the case of owning like gold 595 00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:57.079 or something like that in a portfolio, and not not 596 00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:02.160 making the digital gold comparison, but saying that most clients, right, 597 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.680 if you have sixty forty portfolio of stocks and bonds, 598 00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:08.920 they don't necessarily have exposure to goals, right, And some 599 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.880 clients want that and some don't. And so I think 600 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:14.799 that's the best way to describe it. Some clients want 601 00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:19.400 exposure to this, some couldn't care less. And again that's like, 602 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:23.599 that's how it is for many assets. And what I 603 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:28.559 would say, people tend to be more interested when prices 604 00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:31.319 are at all time highs, right, And that's a nature 605 00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:34.160 of you. It's talked about in the media twenty four 606 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.039 to seven, Right. You go on like CNBC and it's 607 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:39.759 like they have these guests on all the time. You know, 608 00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:43.119 everyone wants to buy when bitcoin's at one hundred twenty 609 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:44.720 thousand dollars. No one wants to buy when it's at 610 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.480 sixty thousand dollars. And so it's a cyclical asset and 611 00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:51.440 I think that's a nature. But we have clients that 612 00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:55.319 have been investing in crypto for many years. The reason 613 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:59.119 that Schwab wanted to offer cryptos because we had clients 614 00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:01.680 that were interested in wanted to meet clients where they 615 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:03.599 are in the Schwab way. Right, We're never gonna be 616 00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:06.039 the first one to launch this, but we want to 617 00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:09.000 do it in a way that we're comfortable, that we 618 00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:11.799 feel is secure, and we want to meet our clients 619 00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:14.680 demand if we want to, if our clients have interest 620 00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:16.400 in it, if they're already investing in it, we want 621 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:17.519 to be able to meet them where they are. 622 00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:22.119 And I think having institutions such as Schwab offering these 623 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.480 products I think helps break down that barrier of trust 624 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:26.440 as well, because a lot of people, you even like 625 00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:28.119 my mom and dad, I can't tell them to go 626 00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:31.839 to coinbase and buy bitcoin and have a seed phrase 627 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:33.839 and a wallet. But if I tell them go to 628 00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:37.319 Charlie Schwab or Fidelity, whoever it is that brands, they 629 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:40.240 are familiar with it, they may be using already. It's 630 00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:41.599 an easier sell. 631 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:46.279 It's it's something they're familiar with. Yes, you know, if 632 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:50.279 you you don't have to self custody, right, It's it's 633 00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:52.559 it's just it's very similar. It fits to how they've 634 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.319 always invested, and it's a name they're familiar with. 635 00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:58.319 Yeah, and I'm sure you guys are doing the education, 636 00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:01.359 you know, helping them. But folks understanding, here's the blockchain, 637 00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:01.880 here's the core. 638 00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:04.759 Yeah, I mean, that's why my role exists. And so 639 00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:08.079 I'm there to act as a guide for the clients 640 00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:11.400 who are very new to this, but also be there 641 00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:13.240 for the clients who've been in the space for many 642 00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:16.119 years and so putting out we have a lot of 643 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:20.079 resources We've put out that some educational, some more market 644 00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:23.640 research driven, right, things like that, But there's a lot 645 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.319 of resources out there for clients that are looking to 646 00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:28.640 learn more. Again, you want to meet the clients where 647 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:28.960 they are. 648 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.119 Are their plans to support additional assets going down the market, 649 00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:34.680 capitalist down to road. 650 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:38.680 Potentially, So they kind of leave me out of the 651 00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:41.079 loop there. So they don't want me spouting these things 652 00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:44.440 on TV, for sure, you know. But but there's always 653 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:46.000 potential for more, oh for sure. 654 00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:48.680 Now, I want to talk a bit about it, and 655 00:33:48.759 --> 00:33:51.039 we touched a bit about it earlier. The cyclicality of 656 00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:53.160 the markets. You know a lot of folks that the 657 00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:56.279 last bitcoin crypto bullmarket didn't do as well because of 658 00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:59.319 the AI trade, and also gold and silver had a bullmarket, 659 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:02.640 which was incredib Do you think as those wind down, 660 00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:05.559 Golden Silver and AI crypto starts to pick up again. 661 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:11.639 To an extent, so, I think the crypto asset class, 662 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:16.800 it's momentum driven. Very few people are actually looking at 663 00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:20.079 blockchain fundamentals right and seeing like where the activity is 664 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:24.239 actually happening. More people are starting to, which is great 665 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:27.639 because that will lead to a more efficient fundamentally driven 666 00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:29.800 market over time. But yeah, right now, it's just driven 667 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:32.719 by Okay, prices are up. What we said before, everyone 668 00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:34.000 want to buy one hundred and twenty. No one wants 669 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:39.360 to buy a sixty, and so it's momentum driven. Part 670 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.639 of the reason we had less I think that we 671 00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:44.760 had less of a kind of bowl phase this cycle, 672 00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:47.800 and again less of a bowl phase in the previous cycle. 673 00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:52.440 Is the accessible kind of areas to speculate in crypto 674 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:56.159 have grown, right, maybe prior to twenty twenty, like you 675 00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:59.519 could get the top ten in coinbase or something. See 676 00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:05.039 only that twenty twenty one bull market. For the average 677 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:08.159 new investor to crypto, you were kind of concentrated to 678 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.719 like a smaller sub sect. And then obviously there were 679 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:13.800 NFTs and all that, right, but now you have purpse, 680 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:18.039 you have all sorts of yeah, like there's all sorts 681 00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:19.719 of areas. So it's kind of it's moved a lot 682 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.159 of the speculation actually out of bitcoin and across the 683 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:26.280 crypto market cap, and the issue there is a lot 684 00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:31.519 of the stuff that flowed to isn't really I'd say 685 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:33.639 for most of it, there's not really much there, you know, 686 00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:39.039 so that money's gone, Yeah, but it was just unfortunate, 687 00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:44.920 and so it's momentum driven. I think there's obviously been 688 00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:47.840 a lot of momentum outside of crypto, and that's part 689 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:50.079 of the reason as you were selling into as the 690 00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:52.679 crypto market sold off, you could rotate into AI. I 691 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:54.239 mean that's been I mean, that was kind of the 692 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:56.840 story of hyper liquid, right, it was it was the 693 00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:01.480 first decks that gave you exposure to on crypto. Right, 694 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:05.639 So in the fall you could chase precious metals on chain. 695 00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:09.079 Earlier this year you could buy oil futures when they 696 00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:11.280 were closed in other markets, and then later in the 697 00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:14.599 year you could buy the AI purpose as well, and 698 00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:18.880 so it created this avenue to continue to chase momentum 699 00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:22.079 outside of kind of your traditional crypto asset classes and 700 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.840 I would suspect that, you know, and this happens with everything. 701 00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:28.679 You know, capital rotates into some traits. It wrote, if 702 00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:31.360 you're buying something, you're selling something else. And so right 703 00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:34.679 now crypto has been what's being sold. I suspect that 704 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:37.679 some time you will get a rotation back into that. 705 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:40.599 You generally need something that's going to reignite some momentum there. 706 00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:42.639 People aren't just all of a sudden going to be like, well, 707 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:44.800 hey it's been great, let's buy crypto. 708 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:47.760 You need a catalyst, like the Clarity Act would be 709 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:48.719 a nice catalyst. 710 00:36:48.760 --> 00:36:51.440 I think the Clarity Act could be a catalyst earlier 711 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:56.119 this year. So again, like crypto momentum driven, very narratives driven. 712 00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:00.440 So like I'm trying to think the previous psychle what 713 00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:08.440 was the narrative Web three was one meme coins. Yeah, 714 00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:11.000 I'd say big picture Web three. That was like kind 715 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:15.960 of the big narrative. This most current cycle was institutional adoption, right, 716 00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:19.920 and so earlier in the spring, you know, bitcoin actually 717 00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:24.760 traded from in the month of April, it traded from 718 00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:27.559 about the low sixties and then up to about eighty 719 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:31.199 three thousand dollars. And right around that time we had 720 00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:36.519 officially launched trading. There was another large, you know, high 721 00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:41.639 profile ETP launch at another firm, right, and so you 722 00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:44.800 kind of had a re emergence of the institutional adoption 723 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:48.840 narrative there. And so I think if the Clarity Act 724 00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:51.360 would pass, you would kind of see like a return 725 00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:55.519 to that narrative. And so that's good because at this 726 00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:59.400 point the sellers seemed to be pretty exhausted, so I 727 00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.280 think that would potentially be a short term catalyst. We 728 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:04.559 actually we did some work on this. We look at 729 00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:09.440 the daily odds, the polymarket odsah and we compared that 730 00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:14.119 with like long and short futures being liquidated, the dollar, 731 00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:18.719 oil inflation break evens, and the NASDAC And so we 732 00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:22.920 did a regression analysis to see, you know, how much 733 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:25.800 of the change in each of these different factors contributes 734 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:27.639 to like the change or can be attributed to like 735 00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:31.039 that day's change in bitcoins price. And so we found 736 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:33.920 year to date, and this is a couple of weeks 737 00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:39.639 old now, but on average, clarity odds rising or falling 738 00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:42.599 could only explain about four percent of bitcoins daily price move, 739 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:44.880 and so we don't think and again now it's easy 740 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:46.920 to say that now when people don't think it's going 741 00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:48.719 to pass. But when there are periods when it was 742 00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:51.400 rising and so it didn't appear to be kind of 743 00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:54.320 driving crypto prices higher, and so again it could lend. 744 00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:56.360 If it were to pass, you could see a re 745 00:38:56.599 --> 00:38:58.760 edition of the institutional adoption narrative. 746 00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:01.079 Yeah, and I hope to your point, like it would 747 00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:05.159 flow back to the ethos bitcoin eat smart contracts. You know, 748 00:39:05.239 --> 00:39:08.199 it's tokenization versus the mean coins exactly. 749 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:11.199 You you want to add it to like the areas 750 00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:14.960 that have utility. Yeah, and then you know not to mention. 751 00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:17.119 You know, bitcoin miners and I've spoken to some of them, 752 00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:19.760 they started pivoting to AI during that period, which look, 753 00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:21.800 I understand they got to make money, they got get 754 00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:24.679 ennery revenue. But hopefully as we're heading back to the 755 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:26.119 next having they start to. 756 00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:28.559 So this is if I have to think about the 757 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:31.199 twenty twenty eight to twenty twenty thirty two cycle, I 758 00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:33.760 think institutional adoption narrative is going to be a flight out. 759 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.199 I think the narrative of that cycle is going to 760 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:40.920 be the pivot from AI back to bitcoin. And not 761 00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:45.079 because I embarish on AI at all. Right, there's a 762 00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:48.519 bottleneck in compute right now, and so companies that have 763 00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:51.199 available compute that they can reconfigure. Right, you can't just 764 00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:53.719 like turn your mining operation to AI. But you have 765 00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:56.519 the energy resources, you have a lot of similar infrastructure, right. 766 00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:00.360 They're currently they're seeing that there's a lot of bottlem there. 767 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:03.760 You can make a lot of money doing inference high 768 00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:09.000 performance computing, right, and so, but we're seeing competition from China, 769 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:11.880 you know, and things like that. Bottlenecks are always temporary. 770 00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:13.880 I'm not saying this is a today thing. I'm not 771 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.639 saying it's a tomorrow thing again, and I'm not bearish AI. 772 00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:20.920 But over time, I think the bottleneck does get resolved. 773 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:24.880 And so if you're running a data center, whether you're 774 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.760 focused on mining or high performance computing, you want your 775 00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:30.639 utilization to be at the highest rate it can be. 776 00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:32.400 You want to be at all hours a day making 777 00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:35.320 money some side of money. And so again, if that 778 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:38.440 bottleneck does kind of break up, maybe there's more competition 779 00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:40.880 for those inference contracts, right, So that drives now that 780 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.840 costs the revenue you can get from down. I think 781 00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:46.719 that starts to kind of pivot back to its Bitcoin 782 00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:49.320 and again, at bitcoins price is higher, it automatically starts 783 00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:52.079 doing that. So I think that the twenty twenty eight 784 00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:55.920 to twenty thirty two narrative could be the pivot back 785 00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:57.840 to bitcoin. And then I'm curious. 786 00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:00.199 You know, with the AI agentic economy, there's a lot 787 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:04.119 of firms building AI agentic crypto wallets, different types of 788 00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:06.639 blockchain solutions for them. I don't know if that's going 789 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:08.360 to take off, but that could also be a big 790 00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:10.639 crypt AI needs crypto or blockchain. 791 00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:14.280 Yeah, I think they still be like similar. I think 792 00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:18.039 there will always be this kind of it's similar infrastructure 793 00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:23.000 and the same way that you know, excluding AI right 794 00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:26.519 Historically minors like you mind when it's profitable, you shut 795 00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:28.679 down time for early when it's not. I think that's 796 00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:30.480 really the same. Like they're doing the same thing. Instead 797 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.960 of just shutting down, they're pivoting their resources elsewhere, and 798 00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:36.679 so I think that will maintain. I'm actually I'm less. 799 00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:40.559 I love like the idea behind it. I love like 800 00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:44.039 the agentic commerce trading in crypto. I see you got 801 00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:45.880 a copy of Doom up there. I love sci fi. 802 00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:49.639 I don't know if I'm there yet. I don't know 803 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:54.800 if AI agents need to transact in cryptocurrencies. There's an 804 00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:59.599 entire massive hedge fund industry, high frequency trading, where computers 805 00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.480 are already transacting in financial markets and they seem to 806 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:05.000 be doing it fine without cryptocurrency. So I don't know 807 00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:08.440 if there's like this case where every AI agent needs 808 00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:11.280 its own you know, it needs to transact in crypto 809 00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:16.039 because it can't pass KYC. AI agents are ultimately deployed 810 00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:18.199 by people, and so if they're trading on your half 811 00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:21.000 or your business behalf, you could just set up their 812 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:25.480 API to your existing account wherever it is. But I 813 00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:28.840 love the idea, I love the imagination, and I hate 814 00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:30.679 to be like a Debbie Downer, but I do want 815 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:32.119 to keep it really and that's why I like to focus, 816 00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:34.400 like what's a realistic thing for like three years out, 817 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:36.840 five years out, maybe like twenty years out. Yeah, like 818 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:40.719 we have there's just billions of like autonomous agents interacting 819 00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:44.079 in the economy. But I think in the short term 820 00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:48.760 kind of the marriage between infrastructure and serving mining and 821 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:53.199 serving AI data centers and mining is like a more 822 00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:55.119 realistic kind of marriage of the two. 823 00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:58.679 That's great perspective, good balance, I think, versus all the 824 00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:02.400 stuff that's out there. Right, So uh, Jim, great stuff. 825 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:04.960 Got some wrap up questions here for you. First, are 826 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:06.519 you an early bird or night out? 827 00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:09.960 So historically I'm an early bird, but I have a 828 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:11.880 five year old and a nine month old, and so 829 00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:14.639 at this point, any chance I can get to sleep, 830 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:16.239 I'm gonna take it. If I'm on the train, I'm 831 00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:20.280 falling asleep, you know, So I'm an opportunistic sleep right now. 832 00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:23.679 I've been there, done that, So I totally relate window 833 00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:24.519 seat aisle. 834 00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:31.880 Actually ale, which is kind of weird, but the planes 835 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.559 have gotten so cramped. Yeah, and so like I hate 836 00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:36.840 like you're like molded up against the window. At least 837 00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:39.840 the aisle your your you get you get banged a little, but. 838 00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:43.800 You know, you can stretch out your legs get exactly text, 839 00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:44.760 email or call. 840 00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:53.599 If a call is probably better, you know is look 841 00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:56.480 at nine million texts I'm sure saying with your text 842 00:43:56.559 --> 00:43:58.360 change with your friends, you open your phone, there's like 843 00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:00.519 a million text messages. It's hard to keep try of everything. 844 00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:03.519 So a call is probably the best way. What's one 845 00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:07.559 company outside of Crypto? You admire the company I admire 846 00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:10.760 outside of Crypto, So you know, going back to my 847 00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:14.039 kind of origins is like a growth tech investor guy. 848 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:16.719 And you know, this is probably a very cliche answer. 849 00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:19.159 I'm like a huge Elon Musk fan boy, and so 850 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:22.000 I think, and I'm also a sci fi yeah guy, 851 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:26.280 and so I love the like it's really not one company, 852 00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:28.760 but obviously what he's doing with SpaceX, what he's done 853 00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:31.960 with x AI, the Tesla, it's I think what he's 854 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:36.239 the idea that he's always kind of he's solving problems, 855 00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:39.519 I mean, boring company like these these are like ideas 856 00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:41.840 that if someone told you about, you'd be like, oh, 857 00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:43.679 I saw that in a movie something, you know, and 858 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:46.039 I think it's so interesting. So I think that's like 859 00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:48.599 kind of what, you know, the appeal to kind of 860 00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.199 the the Elon muscaverse of companies is to me, it's 861 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:55.599 really really forward thinking. It's straight out of a sci 862 00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:56.079 fi buck. 863 00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:00.639 Yeah, he's actually doing it, which is incredible. If you 864 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:02.400 can have if you excuse me, if you can have 865 00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:04.800 dinner with any person living or dead, who would be 866 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:06.280 in a maybe Teylan. 867 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:10.559 No, I would probably kind of corny. I would probably 868 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:12.800 want to do like a relative, you know, someone like 869 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:15.559 I never met, you know, like two hundred years ago. 870 00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:18.639 You know, I think that'd be pretty interesting. You know. 871 00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:25.719 Maybe so my my my mother's family, there's Scottish and 872 00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:28.960 Irish immigrants. You know, they came over with the turn 873 00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:35.000 of the century and they so her father's family owned 874 00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:37.679 like a tanning business in Jersey City, and so like 875 00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:40.920 people would go and you know, catch like animals and 876 00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:42.840 like bring them like their pelts, and they would like 877 00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:46.920 turn them into whatever tanner does. And so it'd be 878 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:49.519 cool to like meet like my grandfather's parents and be 879 00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:52.360 like or Grandpa whoever was, you know, and kind of 880 00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:55.960 like get their take on the world. So he's kind 881 00:45:55.960 --> 00:45:58.840 of corny to go with a family member, but you know, well. 882 00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:01.840 You know that's interesting because there's concept that's been talked 883 00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:04.760 about now where because of AI, you can upload your 884 00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:08.000 conscience so to speak, like it just downloads as much 885 00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:10.320 as it can about you and your kids you're going 886 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:12.480 to and you can pull up an avatar of you 887 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:13.880 and talk to you to a certain degree. 888 00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:14.599 I love that idea. 889 00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:17.239 Yeah, Which it's a brave new world that will be 890 00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:22.000 live in. Yeah, best advice you've ever gotten, I'll keep 891 00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:22.679 it real. 892 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:27.880 From an investing perspective, you can this is a former boss. 893 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:30.559 You can be wrong, but you can't stay wrong, and 894 00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:32.159 so you're never going to be right one hundred percent 895 00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:35.400 of the time in your investment decisions, and it usually 896 00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:37.719 doesn't pay it a double down, you know. So if 897 00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:40.679 you're wrong, admit it and move on to the next idea. 898 00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:44.440 Good stuff, Jim, Thank you so much, pleasure, and I'm 899 00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:47.079 looking forward to our next conversation and the future updates 900 00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:50.480 around Charlie Schwab's crypto initiatives and products and much more. 901 00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:52.000 Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me on 902 00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:52.880 looking forward as well. 903 00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:55.840 Thank you so much for tuning in. Please hit the 904 00:46:55.960 --> 00:46:58.320 like button subscribe if you haven't as yet. If you're 905 00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:01.360 listening on a podcast platform such as Spotify or Apple, 906 00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:04.320 please follow and leave a five star rating. Thank you 907 00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:04.719 so much.