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True Murder with your host, 53 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:41.560 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 54 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:55.919 Good evening. When Karen Foster was told that something had 55 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:59.120 happened to her eighteen year old daughter, Bonnie Craig, she 56 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:03.319 knew what it meant. The Alaska State troopers investigating the 57 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:07.240 scene ruled it a hiking accident, but for Karen, the 58 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:11.520 pieces didn't add up. Bonnie would never have ditched class 59 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:14.199 to go hiking, and she didn't drive, so how would 60 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:17.039 she have reached Mihu Creek, miles out of town in 61 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:20.800 the first place. Armed with little more than her own conviction, 62 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.879 Karen set out to find the truth behind her daughter's death. 63 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:27.719 After a long series of false leads and dead ends, 64 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:31.919 it seemed the case would forever go unsolved. Then, after 65 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.120 twelve years, of public campaigning, private despair, and increasingly tense 66 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:39.560 dealings with the detectives work in the case, Karen received 67 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:43.400 an email that would change everything. The system, at long last, 68 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:45.800 had produced a match for the unknown DNA in the 69 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:48.840 case from a man in a jail all the way 70 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:53.919 across the country. Here is a chilling tale of a 71 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:57.759 mother's unflagging fight to track down the monster who stole 72 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:01.120 her daughter's life, and the battle to ensure that he 73 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:03.759 and others like him would no longer be able to 74 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:08.199 evade justice. The book that we're profiling this evening is 75 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:12.479 Justice for Bonnie, an Alaskan teenager's murder and her mother's 76 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:16.759 tireless crusade for the truth. With my special guests Karen 77 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:20.839 Foster and ij Scheckter. Welcome to the program, and thank 78 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:22.319 you for agreeing to this interview. 79 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:26.240 I J Scheckter, thanks very much for having me DNE. 80 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:26.959 I appreciate it. 81 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:32.079 Thank you very much. I guess Karen Foster is having 82 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:35.120 a bit of an issue connecting, so we'll just wait 83 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:38.759 for that. But in the meantime, as the author of 84 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:43.839 this book, we will go from here. How did you 85 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:49.240 become involved with this story and with Karen Foster, How 86 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:52.519 did you come to write this book? Justice for Bonnie? 87 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:53.279 Tell us about that. 88 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:56.759 My meeting Karen in the first place was a bit 89 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:00.480 of a happy accident. My parents happened to winter in Florida, 90 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:03.079 we were up in Canada, and they ended up renting 91 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:05.759 in the building where Karen happened to be staying. So 92 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:09.319 they encountered Karen one day and heard her very tragic story, 93 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:11.600 And the first thing they did was to call me 94 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:13.959 and ask me if I would have a conversation with 95 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:17.399 her as well. They know that I choose stories based 96 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:20.920 on things, which is one do they have for me 97 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.399 as a person? And two do I think they weren't 98 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:26.040 being told? And do they have a space for the 99 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:29.759 public to see them? So when I heard Karen's story 100 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:33.000 and saw the news footage, I immediately did contact her 101 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:35.560 and went down to Florida to meet with her. And 102 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.759 I was struck not only by the heartbreaking nature of 103 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:41.480 the story, of course, something no families should go through, 104 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:46.600 but I was also really struck by Karen's resilience and 105 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.759 I stood in admiration of her approach to this. The 106 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:52.240 first thing I asked her, very straight up was how 107 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:54.040 do you go on I mean, I have three kids 108 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.959 myself who are younger. But very frankly, I told her, 109 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.079 I don't know if I could endure this losing one 110 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:02.680 of them. How do you do it? Is it faith 111 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:07.120 in God? Is it spirit? What made you survive? And 112 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:10.800 she simply said, you know, when something like this happens 113 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:13.240 and your heart is torn out like this, you have 114 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:15.920 two choices. You can choose to go on or you 115 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.199 can choose not to. And Bonnie, she said, my daughter, 116 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:22.360 Bonnie would have wanted me to choose the path of 117 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:25.079 going on and honoring her legacy in the best way 118 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:28.600 that I could. And she had other kids that she 119 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.920 had to be there for and a life to live 120 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:35.480 in purpose to honor Bonnie. So we had a very 121 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:39.639 frank and open conversation about not only that, but details 122 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:42.000 of the horrors that her family had gone through. And 123 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:45.480 I really appreciated not only how honest she was with me, 124 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:48.360 but the rest of her family as well. They brought 125 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:51.759 me into this world of pain and the nightmare that 126 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:54.959 they had endured, but never with a judgment or expectation. 127 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.720 They just gave me the information I needed, including the 128 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:02.519 emotions and the feeling in their sense of solidarity and 129 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:05.439 support to write the story in the way that I 130 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:08.079 hope that I felt it would deserve to be told. 131 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:14.279 So you came aboard completely after this entire her entire 132 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:17.879 journey and process through the judicial system. So was after 133 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:21.279 that entire ordeal or journey. 134 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:26.120 When I came aboard, it was just concluding, So not 135 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:29.879 to jump ahead, but when I connected with Karen, the 136 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.160 trial for the for the man who was accused of 137 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:36.639 murdering her daughter was just coming to its conclusion. 138 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:45.560 Oh okay, great, So let's talk about Karen Foster. She 139 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:48.959 hasn't joined us, so but you again got to know 140 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:51.560 her and really know her and know her family, and 141 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:55.279 you were brought into the worst time in her life. 142 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:59.920 But yet at the same time, as we just meant, 143 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:04.199 you came aboard at the time of the trial. So 144 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.800 as we alluded to in the opening, that's a twelve 145 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:11.439 year journey for her and her family, but Karen Foster 146 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:14.800 to find out what really happened. So and it's an 147 00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:19.519 incredible story. So let's talk about Karen Foster, her background 148 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:23.839 that would prepare her for this campaign, for this crusade, 149 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:26.720 for this fight of her life. Tell us what her 150 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:27.600 background is. 151 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.759 Certainly. And I'll just make one small correction to something 152 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:34.200 you just said, which we'll talk about later. But you 153 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:36.159 mentioned it was a twelve year journey. In fact, at 154 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:39.600 the seventeen year journey, it was twelve years until they 155 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.480 found the gentleman who did this, and it was another 156 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:45.320 four years of trial, but we'll get to that after. 157 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:49.600 Karen is a very strong, vibrant woman who has been 158 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:51.559 involved in a lot of different things in her life, 159 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:55.399 including journalism, law enforcement, real estate, and a number of 160 00:08:55.440 --> 00:09:00.960 other things. She has multiple kids from different relationship and 161 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:05.720 at the time before this awful event happened, she had 162 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.000 not only Bonnie, her daughter, who was eighteen, but three 163 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:11.879 other kids as well from different relationships. She had also 164 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:16.559 gone from her original home in a small town in 165 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.399 Canada to a number of different places, in large part 166 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:25.039 because one of her husbands, who worked for BP, the 167 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:30.360 oil company, had been moved around both Canada and the States. 168 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.600 So they had lived everywhere from Chestnut Creek in California 169 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:38.080 to Anchorage, Alaska for a period, and many points in between, 170 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:41.519 and eventually they landed back in Anchorage. But there had 171 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:44.480 been time in Calgary, there had been time in different 172 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:46.720 parts of the state, so they moved around a lot. 173 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:51.039 They had fairly complicated but busy and fun life with 174 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:55.080 multiple kids and different households and such. Bonnie was just 175 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:59.279 starting to attend the University of Anchorage in Alaska, so 176 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.879 it was a very It was a very busy time 177 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.360 for the family, lots of kids doing different things, Karen 178 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:08.200 trying to maintain and juggle this all but a very 179 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:13.039 very happy and positive existence. I encourages somewhere between kind 180 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:15.879 of a small town in big city. I think most 181 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:17.519 people think of it as a bit of an outpost 182 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.440 because it's Alaska, but in fact it's on par with 183 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:23.320 places like Pittsburgh and Saint Louis in terms of its size. 184 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:26.480 So it's still a very big, kind of thriving community, 185 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:28.799 but because of Alaska, and it also has a very 186 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:32.240 nice small town mentality where everybody kind of knows everybody. 187 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:37.960 Now, let's try to explain. I guess Karen would be 188 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:42.480 obviously the person to understand Bonnie absolutely the best. But 189 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:47.159 from your work with Karen, you had a very very 190 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:50.399 good idea of what Bonnie was really like, from her behavior, 191 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:54.919 from her past behavior, from her actions, and just from 192 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:59.120 just some of the antidotes obviously from her mother that 193 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:01.759 imparted to you put in this book, so tell us 194 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:07.759 what Bonnie was really like and before we talk about 195 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:10.879 just before this murder. 196 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.759 Certainly, and I do feel very strongly in a way 197 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:17.679 that I do kind of know Bonnie, even though of 198 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.879 course by the time I connected with Karen, Bonnie was 199 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.720 sadly no longer here, but in a very real way 200 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:27.559 from the stories others tell in the comments that you 201 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:31.279 get and the stories that her family tells, you can 202 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:33.360 get a really strong sense of a person. And I 203 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:35.840 do feel I have that having written the book and 204 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:38.720 talked to Karen and her family so much. Bonnie was 205 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:44.960 a very driven, optimistic, cheerful young woman who was liked 206 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.919 by everybody around her. She had a real activist kind 207 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:51.120 of side to her. She had a friend who sadly 208 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:53.440 lost her life in a drunk driving accident, and no 209 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:56.320 sooner had that happened than Bonnie had started a group 210 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:59.960 called Students Against Drunk Driving at her school. She was 211 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.360 the first female on the school wrestling team, so she 212 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:07.559 was very sporty. She was very active. She was a 213 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.799 very happy and popular sibling to her brothers and sisters. 214 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:15.600 Very driven in her school work. She would get up 215 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:17.879 early and go to school and study hard and then 216 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:22.399 go work at Sam's club after school. So she was 217 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.159 that of girl that people picture when you think of 218 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:30.919 that kid who wants to do well, succeed, be liked, 219 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:34.080 be good to people, and by all accounts, just a 220 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:34.960 really fine person. 221 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.840 Now in nineteen ninety four, where is Bonnie in terms 222 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:47.600 of her life? She has a boyfriend named Cameron, has 223 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:52.159 just gone to school in California. So tell us about again. 224 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:56.360 We'd explain her character, but explain this relationship, how serious 225 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:59.879 it is it, and just tell us where Bonnie is 226 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:03.720 in terms of her life. In September of nineteen ninety four. 227 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:09.039 Sure, Bonnie had just started at the University of Anchorage 228 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.360 in Alaska, and Cameron Miyasaki, who was her boyfriend for 229 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:17.320 the previous months as well, was a boy that was 230 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:19.320 very smitten with her and she with him. They would 231 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.440 write to each other all the time and spend a 232 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.000 lot of time together, and Cameron had just gone off 233 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:26.480 to Berkeley to begin his studies there, but they were 234 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:29.960 still closely in touch and corresponding daily and had a 235 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:34.080 really sweet, sweet love affair going on. And Bonnie had 236 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:37.399 just started her studies in September ninety four at the 237 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:41.279 university and was studying diligently and putting in lots of 238 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:44.559 hours in the school library and in class and as 239 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:46.840 I said, working a part time job as well to 240 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:49.159 make money and helping take care of her younger sister, 241 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.960 and just starting the life of a very buttoned down 242 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:57.039 freshman wanting to do great at school. 243 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:05.480 Her father is Gary, if I'm correct, and she is 244 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:09.320 eighteen years old, and she has just decided to move 245 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:11.879 in with her father rather than live with her mother. 246 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:15.320 So tell us about how serious that decision is or 247 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.440 is that just some form of practicality. She seems to 248 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:21.039 understand that decision, so tell us about that. 249 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:26.519 Yeah, it was in part of practical decision. Gary was 250 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.480 the dad who raised her, not her biological father, but 251 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.600 the one she had grown up with. And she was 252 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:38.320 eighteen years old and becoming more independent, and obviously because 253 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.320 of her schedule both school and work, she wanted to 254 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.000 make things as efficient as possible. So it was a 255 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:48.200 decision that she made. And Karen, though it was a 256 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:49.960 little bit painful for her of course to have her 257 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.360 daughter move out, understood and supported her fully. So she 258 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:55.720 went to live with her dad and be closer to 259 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:58.480 school and be able to get to and from places. 260 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:01.759 We're a little more expedition, So that was the reason 261 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:04.279 for that. It didn't it didn't cause any discord in 262 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:06.039 the family. It's just, you know, it's hard to let 263 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:08.320 your let your kid go. You give them roots and 264 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:11.679 you give them wings, but it's it's obviously tough to 265 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:13.600 to to let them go as much as you love 266 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.159 and support them. So she had just she had just 267 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.039 made that move and was living with her that at 268 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:24.440 the time, and the other kids were split between living 269 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.519 with with Karen and living off on their own. Her 270 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.399 older son, Jason was living off on his own. 271 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:38.240 Now, tell us about where Karen is and what she's 272 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:43.759 doing when she does get the fateful call. Tell us 273 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:48.200 what she is up to and her reaction to that call. 274 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.440 You cover this in the book incredibly, to cover every 275 00:15:52.559 --> 00:16:00.440 painstaking and painful and horrific moment. Tell us what she's doing, 276 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:05.360 even what her mood is at that time before this 277 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:06.240 fateful call. 278 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:11.399 Karen is an avid sailor, as many people around the 279 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:14.320 Alaska area are, and has spent a lot of time 280 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.919 on the water. She and a gentleman named Jim, the 281 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:20.480 gentleman she was currently in the relationship with at the time, 282 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:24.120 had gone down to a place called Saint Mark's in 283 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:29.799 Florida because Jim's brother Ken was getting married and so 284 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.559 they were down there to attend the wedding and celebrate 285 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:38.679 and had taken the sailboat down around the western lip 286 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:44.440 of Florida, and one night there were sounds on the 287 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.399 boat in the middle of the night that awoke them, 288 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:53.240 and it turned out it was Ken, the brother, coming 289 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:58.440 to tell Karen that he had received some news from Alaska. 290 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:03.320 The Alaska and Alaska and Skate States trooper had contacted him. 291 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.759 They couldn't reach Karen because she was on the boat, 292 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:09.559 so Uh, that's who they had somehow gotten to. He 293 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:12.440 showed up at the boat and Uh reached out with 294 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.720 a yellow post it note saying to Karen, I got 295 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:19.400 a call from an Alaska State trooper saying they need 296 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:21.839 to talk to you, and in a in a shaky voice, 297 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.279 he said it's about Bonnie, and so of course, UH 298 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.319 in that moment, it's hard to describe for anybody who 299 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:32.599 hasn't gone through it. I I fortunately haven't, though I 300 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.039 feel through Karen that I can understand it about as 301 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.799 well as someone Ken who hasn't actually lived through the 302 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.400 nightmare of that moment, and I think, uh, though it 303 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:46.240 would be clearer coming from her. My sense of it 304 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:50.160 is that it becomes kind of surreal instantly. You are 305 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:54.559 in the twilight zone. You're you're somewhere else. You're spinning out, 306 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.559 trying to make sense of what is a piece of 307 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.640 simple information that someone has just given you. There's a name, 308 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:04.440 there's a phone number, and there's news about your daughter. 309 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.039 But because of what all this implies or could imply, 310 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.680 your mind obviously races and goes to the darkest places. 311 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:14.480 As a parent, your mind goes to those places. Even 312 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:16.720 on the best of days, your kid runs across the 313 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:20.519 street and you freak out. You lose years off your 314 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:22.920 life just from that event. So you can imagine what 315 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:25.640 it feels like when someone reaches out with the number 316 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:28.160 of a trooper and says it's about Bonnie. What he 317 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.079 said was she was in a hiking accident. That is 318 00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:33.000 the news that he had received from the trooper. So 319 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:36.200 he relayed this to Karen as well. Karen was trying to, 320 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.039 through her confounded state, make sense of it, so she 321 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.839 asked him a number of questions over and over, even 322 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:44.960 as she was trying to keep it together, and he 323 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:47.519 kept saying, look, all I have is a name and 324 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.440 a phone number, and they just need you to call them. 325 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:54.240 So they immediately packed up their things from the boat, 326 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:58.200 went into town, found a payphone, and then she made 327 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:03.319 the call to the trooper and the trooper told her 328 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.640 her daughter had been in an accident, had fallen off 329 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.240 a thirty foot cliff at a place called McHugh Creek, 330 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.480 which is a popular place to go in Anchorage. And 331 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:15.359 was that. 332 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:24.480 Now? We talked about Karen's background, but the background also 333 00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:29.880 includes some serious police work, undercover work, and and some 334 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:34.359 heavy undercover work. So she's what, I don't even know 335 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:36.799 what the word is, but she's a veteran and she's 336 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:44.160 hard nosed and and so immediately, what is her reaction 337 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:49.240 in terms of how she deals with this Some people 338 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:52.119 would deal with it differently, But how does she deal 339 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:56.279 with this news initially besides this initial sort of denial 340 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:59.640 that but when she does get that information, what what 341 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:01.440 is inn her mind in terms of when she hears 342 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:05.920 hiking accident? What's Bonnie's experience? What does she immediately think 343 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.279 in terms of a hiking accident. 344 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.119 I agree with you that different people react to that 345 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:16.200 kind of news differently. I think some people get angry, 346 00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:20.240 some people get defensive, some people deny, some people simply 347 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:24.400 freak out emotionally. Karen had spent some time as a 348 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:30.519 volunteer undercover detective on the Anchorage Force and had spent 349 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.640 a lot of time participating in everything from detective raids 350 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.279 to drug busts to trying to bust people who were 351 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:41.720 doing wrong in the community, So she kind of snapped 352 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:45.039 into what I would call detective mode when she first 353 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:48.960 heard hiking accident. Her first reaction was was that it 354 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:51.960 couldn't be. One of the things she thought was Bonnie 355 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:55.720 would never go alone out there. How did she get 356 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:57.920 up on a cliff? How would she fall off a 357 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:02.920 cliff accidentally? How would she get there? She didn't drive 358 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:06.759 a car. She started asking all of these questions naturally 359 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:10.079 because of I think her detective work, and immediately started 360 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:12.519 kind of interrogating in her own mind to try to 361 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:16.200 put together the pieces of a that was obviously very 362 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.759 fuzzy and preliminary for her, but that was her natural bent. 363 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:22.599 So when she got on the phone to the trooper 364 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:25.599 in Alaska. She started asking these questions, and of course 365 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:28.160 they had very seq ansures. They simply kept repeating the 366 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:32.119 information they had, which was that we're very sorry to 367 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:36.960 tell you this, but she fell off. She's lost her life, 368 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.119 and it was clearly an accident. So she started saying, 369 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.240 where's her idea, where was her backpack, where's her wallet, 370 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:47.640 none of which they had. They had identified her from 371 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.960 her class ring, which is all they had. So one 372 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:52.160 of the questions she was asked, Karen was asking, was 373 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:55.759 then what accounts for where her stuff went? How did 374 00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:58.680 you get there? How can you explain a fall? Is 375 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:02.880 this is an athletic girl who's strong, coordinated, and it 376 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:06.599 seemed immediately absurd to her, not only the story that 377 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.519 she would go out there by herself, but that she 378 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:12.359 would have an accidental slip and fall off a cliff 379 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:16.640 from that height in that way. So she immediately went 380 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:20.359 into that mode and stayed there, maybe as a defense 381 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:22.400 mechanism to try to keep it together. I think we 382 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.240 all do different things in the face of news like that, 383 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:29.599 to try to stay composed, let's say, and I think 384 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:33.279 that was her way of staying composed in the moment, 385 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:37.160 going into interrogation mode and trying to get information. So 386 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:41.759 she called journalists that she had known from the city. 387 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:46.079 She called contacts in the homicide department that she had known, 388 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:49.720 just trying to pull together whatever information she could based 389 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:53.079 on this vague bit of news that she had received. 390 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.480 Let's talk about she had relationships with police, she also 391 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:05.400 hadshi media, and part of her venting or part of 392 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:07.920 her reaction to this is that she's angry at the 393 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:10.559 police not giving her any more information, even though she 394 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:15.359 knows that they can't give her any information. So probably 395 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:17.920 against and not that the police are advising her, but 396 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:21.039 probably against the wishes of the police because it's an 397 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:24.440 ongoing investigation, but they have deemed in an accident in 398 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:27.200 her mind, that's what they've told her. What does she 399 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:29.079 do to the media. What does she say to the 400 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:34.960 media in terms of this hiking accident theory or conclusion 401 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.880