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Speaker 1: Suss all right, welcome another installment of the madness and

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the insanity, the fun that we call Open Debate Forum.

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Today's topics are anything related to evangelicalism, dispensationalism in times, prophecy, nation,

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state of Israel, church history, the papacy, Roman Catholicism, Islam.

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I didn't have space to put Muslim or Islam in there, Calvinism,

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you name it, all those topics. First up, as Julio,

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if you hit yourquests to speak, I'll bring you up

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and you can discuss what you'd like. That applies to

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everyone but Chase Haggard. Everyone else is allowed to speak.

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Chase Haggard is not allowed to speak. Julio. I tried

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adding you. It doesn't let me add you. So I

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don't know what issue is. So there were several evangelical

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guys who said they were going to come to debate.

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I doubt that they actually will show up, but we're

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gonna have fun. Nonetheless, if they don't show up, feel

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free to time in ask questions. Just hit request to speak.

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If you have a debate topic, you're welcome to hop up.

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Have the microphone put me in my place. I'm really

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looking forward to getting demolished and smashed. I got smashed

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by a misfit patriot. I got smashed by Bryce and

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Gray and some of that crew said they're gonna come

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smash me today. So I'm hoping that I can come

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get smashed. I'm really a year to get smashed. If

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you now, there's some wine moms too. I sent the

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link to a couple of wine moms. I sent it

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to a Mormon woman who was talking smack.

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Speaker 2: So we should be getting some action, getting a little play,

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get a little bit of you know what, but.

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Speaker 1: Nobody wants to.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's like I even sent it back to Donnie Darkened.

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I didn't realize he's a lunatic that thinks that Trump

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is the Antichrist. So we're talking about somebody actually even

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way whackier than I thought. Like when he said that

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the councilor and I see happened in three hundred and

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they created the Bible, I was like, Okay, we got

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we got some low tier trash on hand, but Trump

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is the Antichrist. Wow, it's like even it's even next level. Dog. Well,

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while we're waiting for any of those wonderful intelligent beings

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to make their way here. Does anyone else have any topics, issues, questions, discussions?

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We are not on YouTube, So what would you like

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to talk about? Hit request to speak? If you like

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to come up and I will give you the microphone

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and you can speak. We have our first beloved speaker,

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who I've forbidden to speak, but I'm going to now

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revoke my papal van on speaking for this person. He

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is now unexcommunicated from speaking, and he may now speak.

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Speaker 4: I just wanted to just wanted to come on and

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let people know that I'm not forbidden to speak. I've

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overpowered Jay with my sheer will and a force of

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masculine magnetism. So I just wanted to show that domineering.

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And I know who the Antichrist is. It's not Trump.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I don't want to get into that right now.

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Speaker 1: And we do have vegans that have seemed to there

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are vegans who present the pretty strong evidence that Tristan

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might be Antichrist. I'll just say.

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Speaker 5: That, let's let's just leave it at that. Let's just

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leave it at that.

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Speaker 4: You know, maybe as a child, maybe I sometimes didn't get,

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you know, to finish the last bowl of ice cream.

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Numerous times and could that be indicted if someone being

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the answer Christ Maybe maybe not.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Well, we can't exclude any evidential possibilities in this kind

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of a scenario.

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Speaker 6: What what's up, Hey, Jay, thanks for bringing me up.

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I just had a question about like dispensationalism Calvary and

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in regards to like Calvary Chapel churches and kind of

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like their connection to the intelligence Asien seasons. I don't know,

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maybe the CIA something that I noted, Like I used

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to go to Calgary Chapel churches. I'm leaning towards Orthodoxy,

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but I used to go to Calvary Chapel churches and

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I saw, like right after the October seventh attack and

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when there was a major protest in the most sort

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of western world, like kind of like pro Palestinian protests,

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all of a sudden, the pastor the churche that I

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used to go.

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Speaker 5: To was pretty big.

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Speaker 6: He's change into his stern every Sunday. It was about

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the necessity of Israel, the necessity of like what what

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how much do you owe or your allegiance to Israel.

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Speaker 1: Or yeah, they're all paid off by various foundations and things.

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Tanks very well known. They've been paid off for a

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long time, just like John Hagey.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and he used to sometimes even brag about the

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pastor with sometimes even bragged about like, oh, my connections

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in the intelligence seasons. He has told me that this

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was happening or the or like the the Arc of

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Noah is like on the on the in Turkey on

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the mountains. And then the intelligence agencies have told me

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because they have pictures, and I'm like okay.

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Speaker 1: And then if there's a lot of con men in

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the Calgary Chapel, in fact, a lot of the people

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in our circles, like we father Deacon and Aias was

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raised in Calgary Chapel and went to Cay Calgary Chapel

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High School. So yeah, we we we know quite a

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bit about that on our side. I think the CIA connection,

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if I recall, was Lonnie Frisbee. He's one of the

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early founders of the Calvary Chapel.

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Speaker 6: But what is your impression about like of them like today,

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Like I mean, do you think most of the other

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branch that was set up like that, but most of

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the other other other ones that were open later on,

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do you think they're still kind of like pretty pretty

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connected with the intelligence agencies, or they're like kind of

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like doing their own thing or b.

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Speaker 1: I would assume that they're still loosely connected. I don't

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know how extensive it actually is, but I mean I

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think they definitely push, you know, various versions of dispensationalist

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type views. Maybe not a full on, you know, Schofield style,

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but there's still like a rough dismensationalism.

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Speaker 6: They still teach, yeah, around that time, like every week.

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So the the the actual Sundays we will go to,

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they would they would do worse, buy worse. They will

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go to the entire Bible right and totally abandoned that,

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and every Sunday it will be about necessity of Israel

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and how much do you and how much do you

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always rile or the Jewish people? And I'm the glad

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couldn't glass this time.

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Speaker 1: Well, the reason for this, as we talked about last night,

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is because all of these Protestants and Evangelicals are not

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in the church, and they don't have the church, so

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they're missing the fact that the Church is the fulfillment

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of the typology of Israel, and Israel is divorced, as

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Joseiah says, and as the Book of Revelation says, when

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the bold judgments are poured out on the city where

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Jesus was crucified, that's all seventy eighty's punishments that fulfill

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Luke twenty one in Matthew twenty four. So all that

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proves the divorce of Israel. And yet God God kept

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the Covenant, because as Ezekiel sixteen and Jeremiah thirty one

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and thirty three say, the New Covenant, which is not

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according to the Covenant with Moses, is the covenant that

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fulfills all the previous covenants. That's why I second for these.

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One says that all the promises of the Covenant are

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yeay in Christ. There's no such thing as a dual covenant.

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There's no separate covenant for Jews as a nation state

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because the nation state of Israel literally was a type

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of the Church. As Galatians six sixteen says, that's all

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I have.

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Speaker 6: Thank you, thanks for bringing me.

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Speaker 1: Up all right. Next guy raised Us says that we

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don't know our Bibles, and he's going to set it straight.

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He says, the Orthodox don't know the Bible. Go ahead,

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you got an unmute dog do a mixtape for us.

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Speaker 7: Okay, So first of all, you you're actually you're wrong

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on the account of the Jewish people. And secondly on

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the issue about Israel and evangelicals. I'm an Injuria and

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I've lived in a journal all my life. I've never

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had anything to do with your intelligence agency. Yet the

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Bible speaks for the Jewish people, if you.

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Speaker 1: Read Picks, the Bible speaks for Christianity. Hold on, what

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does say who does glacious threes say? Is the fulfillment

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of thea?

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Speaker 7: Can you come down? You mistake you guys, mickeys. You

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flesh out one scripture and you forget.

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Speaker 1: That literally for the previous guy ten scriptures? What are

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you talking about?

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Speaker 7: Can you listen to me?

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Speaker 1: The Book of Doations three? Shut up round booting you.

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What does Galatians three say?

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Speaker 8: The problem that you guys.

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Speaker 1: You can't even form sentences. You wanted to refute us,

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and you can't form a sentence.

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Speaker 7: A research on the timeline we do your books? Reaching

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ross was reaching off that galicians should.

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Speaker 1: Anything to do. It has nothing to do with who

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the fulfillment is, the timing of the writing, has nothing

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to do with who the talk to. This this is

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what these people are this is the stupidest people on

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the internet. That's funny. Okay, I'm.

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Speaker 8: Here, ye all right, Well I actually had two questions,

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but I'm I'm gonna leave with the person.

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Speaker 1: So all right.

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Speaker 8: So the other night when you were baiting the whatever

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whatever the guy's name was, mister Patriot, I was. I

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was one of the ones he was calling the sim

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because I just just like, just like Chase said, not

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not Chase Haggard, the other Chase, you know, the one

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from whatever podcast. Just like he said, I've seen him

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like on the timeline like a lot the past couple

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of weeks, you know, just like trying to trying to

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counter counter you know, like the anti Israeli stuff or whatever.

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And I've seen absolutely nothing about him in regards to theology.

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So me and a couple of the a couple of

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gods that I'm sure they follow you, like, we asked,

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like we just left comments like do you, like, do

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you actually know anything as far as theology specifically? I mean,

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he didn't, he didn't necessarily like react to my.

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Speaker 9: Guy.

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Speaker 8: He was he responded to specifically, And that's the one

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that you saw where he said it doesn't matter if

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the argument is garbage. Uh so I kind of like

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we I'm assuming everybody else like kind of anticipated what

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was gonna happen. But Jack, you still hear.

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Speaker 1: Me you're cutting it out sort of. I mean I

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heard I'll drop down to come back in Nylis Nilos.

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You want to talk.

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Speaker 10: H mister Dyer, Thank you. I appreciate that. It's good

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to be on the show.

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Speaker 11: Uh.

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Speaker 10: Players finally gets to talk to him, big fan. Been

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following you for a few years, big fan of Alex

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for a very long time.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 10: Uh, it was really pleased to see your work that

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you've been doing with Sam Hyde. I met him in

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person at one of his shows, uh not too long ago,

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and I, uh, you know, I mentioned, you know, hey,

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I appreciate the great work that you guys are doing,

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and uh, you know, I hope you you know, I

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don't know if you've orthop told him, but I mentioned

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to him. I was like, hey, you know, you're looking

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into orthodoxy. I uh, you know, I hope you continue.

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Speaker 1: To do so.

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Speaker 10: And he's he gave me this kind of strange look.

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He's always kind of like tearing up a little bit,

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and I, uh, it was it was funny. I found

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out after the show that there were a bunch of

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other Orthodox people that had gone up to him and

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said the same thing and asked him the same question,

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and you could tell that we were like, we were

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like styopping him into uh to Orthodoxy.

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Speaker 1: So that was.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, sorry for that for the ramblings story. I just

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had to share that with you. But I really appreciate

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art work. I had some yes, So I just want

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to preface this with a statement, I'm a baptized Orthodox.

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These are not my positions. These are positions that I'm

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trying to argue people out of, and I hot to

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source your arguments in order to do that. And it's

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partially my fault because I would like read pill people

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before discovering the church, and now I'm like having to

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undo the damage I've done because a lot of the

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things that I used to iss, I used to hold

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her you know, heretical, and so a lot of this,

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I guess is penance on my part. So the first

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question I had is, so, what is your strongest argument

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for refuting I guess what. I don't know if you're

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familiar with the whole Tartaria mud flood hypothesis, but one

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of the arguments that people in that sphere of thought

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think is they refer to what they call the little

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season of Satan. Essentially, I assume this is after the

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millennial reigin Satan is loosed for a time, and their

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argument is that will the you know, Christ has already

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come and gone, and that we're essentially the descendants of

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those that were left behind and and we're like in

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this last season of temptation. And one of their arguments

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for this is it's like, well, there's no there's no emperor, right,

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there's no acumen a, there's no orthodox monarch really that

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you can point to, and that is kind of a

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sign of that we're in that little season and the

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torments that we're enduring, you know, sort of like I

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believe with Saint Pas he said that the trials of

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those living in the last days would be equal to

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those of the apostles, you know, sort of along that

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line of thinking, what's your can I can I get

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your thoughts on that?

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I think all the Tartaria stuff

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is absolutely retarded in a waste of everyone's time. Somebody

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tying in Tartaria to the end times just sounds like

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next level Skitzo. So I don't even know that you

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could reason with people that think this way. First of all,

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the history of the Church is very clear in terms

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of things like apostolic succession, the teachings of the church fathers,

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documentical councils. There's no gigantic loss of time. If if

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there's some of the people that if I recall, they

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hold to like vast changes in the in the dates

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and like we're missing centuries or some kind of nonsense

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like this Chase humoicism.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they.

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Speaker 4: I know, Tartaria people, and it's just I mean, it's

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it's a it's a cool like sci fi story. I mean,

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you can just respond by just just explicate, like the

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history of Aracus. I mean, that's the same that holds

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the same level of justification, justification and actual historical veracity,

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because they're they're just saying, oh, we lost all this time,

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Well how do you know that? And then there they'll

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make claims and reach back into this lost area of

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time and just pull things up and just it's just

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all arbitrary.

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Speaker 5: Like there's also questions.

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Speaker 1: There's also no millennial reign, like a we're not pre millennialist.

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You cannot believe in a literal millennium in the Orthodox

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Church just gets condemned as a second ecumenical council. So

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this sounds like a mix of like Protestant premillennial stuff

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with weird tartaria conspiracy theories, and it's all just pure gibberation.

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Like like Chase said, it's just at hawks. So, I

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mean history the Church are very clear in terms of

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things like a succession, so there's no like hidden there's

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not like a missing thousand years or whatever these people

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say it's just crazy.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, but how do you know that.

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Speaker 1: Because what I just said, like we have the successions

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of the bishops, I mean, unless you want to say

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that a succession went away and like what we have

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today is all fake bishops and.

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Speaker 4: Well, and that's the thing is is you're gonna you're

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gonna claim this lost period of time but then still

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appeal to things that rely upon an accurate historical record.

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Speaker 5: It's just really goofy.

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Speaker 1: Also, I'm not I mean, I don't know that there

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is any guarantee that there would be some ever living

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Orthodox monarch. And to say that we are living after

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the end of the millennium, the millennium is the Church.

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The Church is the Kingdom. The Church is still here,

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so it hasn't ended or gone away. The other thing

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is that you need to look into partial preterism because

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this cures a lot of this stupid evangelical based in

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time speculation. And even some of the Orthodox people and

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the monastics can go crazy with these end time speculations.

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I mean, this is pretty well known. A lot of

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monasteries and people go crazy. You have people in Greece

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saying that furbies were Antichrist. You had people in Greece

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saying that barcodes were the mark of the Beast. I mean,

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it's just crazy speculation stuff. But I don't even listen

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to tard target people, so I don't like, I don't

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know that much about it. I think Chase is basically

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marrying a girl from Tartaria.

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Speaker 5: I think, well, the thing is understand Tartaria.

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Speaker 4: You need to understand the Spacing Guild and the intergalactic

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spice trade.

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Speaker 1: I thought you were marrying Princess Irulan from Tartaria aka Irakus. Correct.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, but you're not even gonna address all right,

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I'm just gonna mute you're gonna address anything I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: You know that in this in this space, all I

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do is mute people. There was a guy saying that

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yesterday all you do and there's mute people.

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Speaker 5: I mean I'm muted right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, even though the only mute button mutes everyone, which

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I never No one's always muted, So no space is

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always muted. The only muted space is the space that

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Chase occupies.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's real funny from somebody who doesn't even realize

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that mudflows wiped out all of history exactly.

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Speaker 1: There was a mud baptism like Noah's flood.

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Speaker 4: Well, what people don't want you to know is things

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in Hollywood, like like the the mud wrestling scene from from.

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Speaker 1: It's a secret symbol. It's a symbol telling us what's

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going on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's actually a symbol telling us what happened back

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into Tartaria.

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Speaker 5: It was in the World Faral movie. Oh what's it called?

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Speaker 12: Yeah, hi guys, I just just real quick, I just

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I was wondering if I could address the concerns of

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the last collar and just make mention of what is it?

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I think second Theologians, wasn't it. Yes, that's the New Bible.

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Hold right where he talks about you know, there's so

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many New Testament passages. Back when when I was a Protestant,

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I spent a lot of time refuting these kinds of

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you know, nonsensical skill field type dispensational.

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Speaker 1: Arguments. And the New Testament is so.

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Speaker 12: Rich with with passages that clearly refute this talking about

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the resurrection.

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Speaker 1: You know, they.

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Speaker 12: Let's see, they will know whise precede those who are

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who are are dead in Christ, but they will rise first.

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You know, I I used to be really good at, uh,

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you know, reat reiterating these passages. But I was wondering

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if Jay, if you could maybe mention some of the

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stuff and Matthew and second Thessalonian or second Theologians, and uh,

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you know, some of the other passages that just clearly

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show that on you know, on that last day, all

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that are in the grave, show here his voice the

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righteous under the resurrection of eternal life.

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Speaker 13: Right.

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Speaker 1: So John five, you're right when you compare that to

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what's in for Thessalonians about well the resurrection, it's the

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same thing. It's the last day. So in dispensationalism, you

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have two comings of Christ, which is retarded at the

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end of time, right, So he comes back and sets

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up a millennial kingdom and then he quote comes back

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for the for the resurrection. So it's just stupid, right,

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There's no two comings of Christ at the end of time.

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There's one bodily advent with a resurrection where we are

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caught up in the clouds. That's it. And that's why

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Jesus speaks of the Last Day, not two last days.

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One when he comes back and sets up a thousand

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year kingdom in Jerusalem with animal sacrifices and all this nonsense,

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which Hebrews says is Antichrist to go back to that.

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So imagine Jesus coming back and setting up an Antichrist

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system which he wiped away in seventy eighty, which is

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so this is how stupid this is. But yeah, the

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first resurrection is baptism because that makes you a member

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of the kingdom. That's when you are resurrected into you're

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a son of God through water baptism. This is what

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Jesus says about the first resurrection Revelation twenty first Resurrection,

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and then the second resurrection is Bali resurrection, and then

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that's it. There are there's no charts with dates and

389
00:27:18,559 --> 00:27:21,079
years and months and codes, and like all that stuff

390
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,960
is just a bunch of evangelical nonsense. The Book of

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Revelation is largely about the Roman Empire and the destruction

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of the Temple in seventy eighty. Thus John wrote the

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Book of Revelation prior to the destruction of the Temple.

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And that's how the book makes sense. It actually all

395
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makes sense. And that's why Neuron Kisar is neuro Caesar.

396
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,000
When you look at when you tabulate neuron Qsar, it

397
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comes out to six sixty six. It's like the one

398
00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:53,319
valid biblical instance of Gamatria. When John says his name

399
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is sixty sixty six, Nero Caesar is sixty six. And

400
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,759
guess what. There's a textual variant the Book of Revelation

401
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,440
and it comes out to sixty one six. And one

402
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,079
of the textual variants, guess what, neuron Caesar also translates

403
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,920
to sixty one six. Can go either way. Why would

404
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,799
John write that encode? Because John's writing under the Roman Emperor,

405
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and so he's writing two the seven churches. They would

406
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be persecuted if he said, hey, the ruler person in

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the churches is Antichrist. So he wrote the name as

408
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a code, as Jews often did, and Gamatria is not

409
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what idiots on the internet say about the movie PI

410
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or like trying to predict all the future, like the

411
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,759
idiot that Jim Bob and Andrew debated Zach Hubbard. It's

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just the way that Jews would use and tabulate numbers.

413
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They didn't have Arabic numerals, and so Jews, just like Greeks,

414
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would use their first ten letters four numbers, and ultimately

415
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the whole system could be a number. So that's the

416
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action origins of Gomatria. And it could also then be

417
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,640
used if you didn't know Hebrew, for example, you could

418
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:11,079
write encode, or you could write different numbers. So that's

419
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basics of history and Biblical theology, nothing to do with

420
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what idiots on the internet do with.

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Speaker 14: Like I put in the Hitler in the Demitria code,

422
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and it told me he's gonna be the Antichrist, all

423
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this nonsense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks, I really appreciate that. Yeah, it's that's a

425
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pretty thing to refute. It is, and it just astonishes me.

426
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Speaker 12: I mean, I personally know people like Hebrew roots type

427
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people who literally believe a lot of them, a lot

428
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of Evangelicals literally believe that Christ is coming back to

429
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:55,400
establish an earthly kingdom for a little literal thousand year

430
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reign in Jerusalem, is going to reinstitute the animal sacrifice,

431
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and if the nations of the earth don't come and

432
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participate in that animal sacrifice, they won't get rain. That's why,

433
00:30:09,319 --> 00:30:14,440
that's why it seems to me that this would be

434
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the perfect recipe to completely deceive uh, Protestants and Evangelicals

435
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,279
into accepting sure, some kind of anti Christ reign in

436
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the future.

437
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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's the absolute perfect recipe.

438
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Speaker 12: You couldn't come up with a better prescription to deceive

439
00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:36,400
you know, these uh, these people.

440
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly could play out like that. That's why

441
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,480
we have to stress, as I often do that every

442
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:47,599
time some want well, almost every time someone Tennis quoted

443
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,039
the New Testament, it's not quoted about the end of

444
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the world. And this really ends all pre millennialism, right.

445
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Premillennialism is based on the idea that the Kingdom of

446
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:59,599
God starts when Jesus returns to set up an earthly

447
00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:05,559
structure in Jerusalem with a new temple terrain. Okay, they

448
00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:08,880
think that because they think the famous Messianic psalms on

449
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one ten, Sit in my right hand until I make

450
00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:14,759
your enemies your footstool is about the Second Coming, But

451
00:31:14,839 --> 00:31:17,200
every time it's quoted in the New test someone about Christ,

452
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,720
it's about his ascension. So they're confusing the ascension with

453
00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:27,079
the second Coming. Super fundamental, obvious mistake. And this is

454
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precisely why they don't understand that the Church is the kingdom. Well,

455
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what does Jesus say to Peter, you are the rock,

456
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I will give you the keys of the kingdom. That's

457
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Peter's role as the corfeus, the mouthpiece of the apostles,

458
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not pope, not Vatican one stuff, just the mouthpiece of

459
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the apostles. The Orthodox term for Peter is the corfaeus,

460
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,640
Greek term for the mouthpiece. He's the mouthpiece of the apostles.

461
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He's the symbol of the apostles because of his confession.

462
00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:02,359
But Jesus says the same thing in Matthew eighteen to

463
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,559
the entire College of the Apostles, which that guy said

464
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thought was a university. The College of the Apostles just

465
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,119
means the entire group or the entire synod of the apostles,

466
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and they're said to also have the keys of the kingdom.

467
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Keys of the kingdom means the ability to preach, to

468
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,720
remit sins, and to offer the sacraments. That's what the

469
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bishops or the episcopate do. The episcopate is a Greek

470
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term that used multiple times the New Testament for the

471
00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:32,400
successors to the apostles. If you read Timothy, Paul lays

472
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,200
his hands on Timothy, tell Timothy to do the same

473
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,039
thing for his successors. So there's a direct Apostolic descent,

474
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,519
which is mirrored on the passages in numbers eleven and

475
00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:47,200
other attacks in the Old Testament. When the laying out

476
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,079
of hands passes the Holy Spirit, it's no longer an

477
00:32:50,119 --> 00:32:56,440
ironic biological priesthood. It's now a spiritual priesthood of the Church,

478
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,480
which is a fulfillment of the ironic, livid priesthood. It's

479
00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:05,400
the Melchizdukian priesthood, which Paul says that hebre was seven

480
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,240
is superior to the ironic. So everyone who wants to

481
00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:13,720
go back to temples, animal sacrifices and all that is

482
00:33:13,799 --> 00:33:17,839
negating the Kingdom, negating the Church, negating the history of

483
00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:21,559
the Church, and going back to something that is retrogade,

484
00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:25,079
and is the type you're forsaking the fulfillment for the

485
00:33:25,079 --> 00:33:29,200
type that's so stupid. This is all right open for

486
00:33:29,279 --> 00:33:31,200
anybody else who wants to talk about it. We can

487
00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:33,160
go to any of the text you want hit request

488
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,119
to speak. I'll bring you up great points there from Paul.

489
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,359
And I know this too directly because when I was

490
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,640
eighteen nineteen twenty when I started reading the Bible. I

491
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,720
still have my prophecy I think I have. I have

492
00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:48,599
my Schofield Study Bible. I don't have my Prophecy Study Bible,

493
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,880
but I'm looking at my Scholfield study bubble right now.

494
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,960
So I went through all this. I saw it firsthand.

495
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,640
I was raised Baptist. I know all about pre tribulation

496
00:33:59,759 --> 00:34:01,720
rap sure in the end times. I used to be

497
00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:04,920
a pre millennialist. I used to argue for all this stuff.

498
00:34:05,359 --> 00:34:08,639
And then when I understood that all the covenants are

499
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:12,920
not contrasted and planned bees, but they're all the same Covenant,

500
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,360
and that salvation was always in Christ, even in the

501
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,719
Old Testament, and that the millennial reign quote unquote begins

502
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,400
when the church is set up. That's it. This whole

503
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,519
heresy falls away. And then when you understand partial preterismthew

504
00:34:28,559 --> 00:34:32,280
twenty four, it's over all this heresies is done. What

505
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,880
you would think is obvious if you just read Galatians

506
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:42,199
and Hebrews. But you know, I don't think. I don't think. Actually,

507
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,199
most of these evangelicals that think that they're like super

508
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,719
Bible based, they don't actually know what the Bible teaches

509
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,679
like they're literally ignorant of it. But they're always touting

510
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,840
their Bible knowledge. Like that guy that Nigerian got earlier.

511
00:34:56,199 --> 00:35:01,400
You Bible ibra da? Are you gay? Why do you

512
00:35:01,519 --> 00:35:06,360
nothing with the baboo? Who wants to come up see here,

513
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,599
request to speak? I'll bring you up, baby. I think

514
00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:16,960
I've got book over here. If you disagree, if you'd

515
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,519
like to come to the head of the line, if

516
00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:19,800
you'd like to discuss.

517
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 14: Bible prophises. Who wants to talk about Bible prophecies and

518
00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:30,360
the blood moons of Israel friends, the Bible teachers, the

519
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:31,800
pretipulation and rupture.

520
00:35:33,639 --> 00:35:35,559
Speaker 1: I could do a really good fake preacher voice. By

521
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:37,960
the way, I can even do it, John Hagen. If

522
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,960
you want blood moons of Israel, we don't have any

523
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:48,519
blood moon promoter promoters. What about any moon moonpie promoters.

524
00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:53,320
Anybody believe in moon pies. I know John Hagy does it.

525
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,559
Definitely believes in the moon piths. No one, No one

526
00:35:57,599 --> 00:36:00,960
wants to come up and discuss. There's no defenders of

527
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:15,440
this stupid theology. By the way, in Hebrews, that's why

528
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,800
Paul cites someone ten in Hebrews to prove this point.

529
00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:20,639
Sit at my right hand, so I make your enemies

530
00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:31,039
your frystal right, So kingdom is now hushed tones and

531
00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:34,920
then David hushed and then David Yo, what else?

532
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:43,519
Speaker 15: Yes, sir, question about the prophecies from the Old Testament

533
00:36:43,559 --> 00:36:47,920
regarding Israel. That's say I will come back to its land.

534
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,119
How would you interpretuce?

535
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,639
Speaker 1: If you read the Book of Acts, those passages are

536
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:58,320
interpreted as the event of Pentecost. So the Jews in

537
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,320
the land right at the time of Pentecost. Peter says

538
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:08,000
that the rebuilt tabernacle of David is the church. The

539
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:13,280
joined together two six that Ezekiel talks about is the church.

540
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,559
Read Ezekiel sixteen. It's the same passage. Excuse me, It's

541
00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:20,079
the same topic as Jeremiah thirty one and thirty three.

542
00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:26,159
So when Ezekiel sixteen says that Syria and Sodom will

543
00:37:26,159 --> 00:37:30,280
come into Israel and be a daughter of Israel. How

544
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,800
could Syria be a daughter of Israel? How could they

545
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,639
be together in a covenant? The only way they can

546
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:39,039
be together in a covenant is the fulfillment of all

547
00:37:39,119 --> 00:37:43,920
of those promises in Pentecost, which is the reversal of Babel,

548
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,639
which is the kingdom, which is the Church, one Lord,

549
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:54,159
one faith, one body, one baptism. Thank you. Yes, if

550
00:37:54,199 --> 00:38:00,320
you look at Peter's sermons, Stephen's sermons and acts literally

551
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:08,159
explain these things. Okay, thank you for having me here.

552
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:37,480
What's up, David? I'm you, David. Where'd you go Christmas? Rex? Yeah?

553
00:38:37,519 --> 00:38:39,920
What's up? Man? Yeah?

554
00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 16: Like, what about the non denominational churches?

555
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: Are they?

556
00:38:45,159 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 17: I mean, it's kind of like up in.

557
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 16: The air whether they're like dispensationalists or not dispensationalists. And

558
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,039
I just wanted your your thoughts on on the non

559
00:38:56,079 --> 00:39:01,679
denominational movement and if dispensationalism is spread throughout those churches,

560
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:03,840
because I have no idea.

561
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: I'm I don't know the extent, but I'm sure it's everywhere.

562
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,000
I don't but I have no idea how expansive.

563
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,079
Speaker 17: All right, well, I'm not here to defend dispensationalism.

564
00:39:20,159 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: So uh huh do you want to defend Catholicism.

565
00:39:26,159 --> 00:39:28,639
Speaker 17: I'm not a not really a theist.

566
00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: You're not a theist? Do you have catholic in your bio?

567
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:32,960
What do you mean?

568
00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 5: Yeah?

569
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 16: I mean I'm not you know, I'm not apologetic or

570
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,679
anything like that. Uh, Catholics are those, you know, the

571
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:43,400
one true faith?

572
00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 1: How do you know if you're not, if you're not

573
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:48,599
able to defend that, how do you know?

574
00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 18: What do you mean if you're not.

575
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: Able to defend it?

576
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 17: I'm just not very good at debates and stuff like that.

577
00:39:59,079 --> 00:39:59,800
I don't, you know.

578
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 16: I read a lot. I came back to the faith.

579
00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:12,360
I have a lot of Protestant friends. Catholicism seems like

580
00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:16,679
the the most true church, I mean ever founded by Christ.

581
00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:19,559
Speaker 1: Well, but what how do you know that?

582
00:40:19,679 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 11: Like?

583
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,599
Speaker 1: What are the what are the main arguments you think

584
00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:24,239
make it true or the one true faith?

585
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,039
Speaker 17: It's the rock in which the church is built. I

586
00:40:30,039 --> 00:40:33,400
mean it was Orthodox.

587
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: The Orthodox Church believes the exact same thing about the Yeah.

588
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 16: Okay, yeah, I don't Yeah, I mean to me, I'm

589
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:45,320
not you know, I don't care if you're Orthodox or Catholic.

590
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: I think those are are the so I don't have

591
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,920
to be to be well.

592
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 16: The one true church is the you know, the Church,

593
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,760
the Apostolic churches, you know, Orthodox to the Church. I

594
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,599
don't know, man, I'm just I'm Catholic. I'm culturally Roman Catholic.

595
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,000
If I was born in Greece, I probably do.

596
00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:10,159
Speaker 1: Usually it falls back on a cultural thing, which has

597
00:41:10,199 --> 00:41:12,199
nothing to do so if I'm if I was raised

598
00:41:12,199 --> 00:41:17,559
a Buddhast, is buddhism't true? No obviously, okay, So what

599
00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:19,400
you're born and what you're raised has nothing to do

600
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:26,000
with which one's true false? Right? Uh, it doesn't know, Okay,

601
00:41:26,199 --> 00:41:29,480
So it's doesn't matter if a person's born in Greece

602
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:35,079
or if they're born in Ireland as to which one's career, you.

603
00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 16: Know, I, like I said, I don't know, Okay, fair enough,

604
00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:52,239
I'm Catholic, Spaghetti, I'm new.

605
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:56,599
Speaker 1: Hello.

606
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 19: Yeah, hey, Jay, I saw you Patriot and I thought

607
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,679
it was really funny, but it actually made me kind

608
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,400
of sad because my mother is a dispensationalist, and she's

609
00:42:09,639 --> 00:42:15,079
very stubborn and not like the brightest bold and when

610
00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:18,280
I saw you debating him. It made me, uh, it

611
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:19,639
kind of just reminded.

612
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 20: Me of that, and I was wondering if you had

613
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,440
any sort of arguments I could tell somebody who was

614
00:42:24,599 --> 00:42:27,960
not bad faith like that, but also just a suburb

615
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,800
you know, kind of disconvinced.

616
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,119
Speaker 21: But this is a bullshit.

617
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: You know well, I mean, if they're not going to

618
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,960
listen to, like, you know, the texts that talk about

619
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,599
the divorce of Israel, I don't know what would be convincing.

620
00:42:43,679 --> 00:42:46,599
I mean, Matthew twenty one. If the Parable Divine Dressers

621
00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:49,280
Jesus says towards the end of the Parable that the

622
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,519
Kingdom of God will be taken from the Jews and

623
00:42:51,559 --> 00:42:55,400
given to the Gentiles, and that means, yeah, I show

624
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,519
the largely gentile church. So if they don't understand that's

625
00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:01,159
the divorce of Israel, Like, what does she say that is?

626
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:05,519
Speaker 8: Dude, I couldn't tell you.

627
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 19: Her explanations hinge on like emotional, you know, Hamas's bad

628
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,679
kind of arguments. So it's just really sad, to be honest.

629
00:43:14,639 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: The only reasons I have to do with them, I'm

630
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,519
not making exactly exactly.

631
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 19: The only reason I'm even asking you is kind of

632
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,199
because I figured you'd get a laugh out of it,

633
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:24,800
but like.

634
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 21: There's really no hope.

635
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: I'm guessing right, Well, I don't know. I mean, you know,

636
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:33,159
it just depends a lot of times. We can't like

637
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,639
debate our parents into a position. I mean, my mom

638
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,719
is still influenced by this sort of Baptist dispensation and

639
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:44,079
stuff too, So it's just not really probably going to

640
00:43:44,159 --> 00:43:47,079
go anywhere if you're trying to convince your parents of

641
00:43:47,119 --> 00:43:50,800
a position, because parents are never convinced by like a

642
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,960
child arguing with them, even if the parents are wrong.

643
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 19: So well, my dad's argument that I'm older than you,

644
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,480
so I know what's more true.

645
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: It's just from the ultimate boomer age card, Like every

646
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,320
boomer pulls this, you know age cards.

647
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,519
Speaker 19: Yeah, it's like true in everything I tried to talk

648
00:44:12,559 --> 00:44:16,239
to them about, whether it's geopolitics or anything. They're just like, well,

649
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,719
you know, I was around when we had to hide

650
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,280
under our desks for the nuclear drills, so I know

651
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:22,440
that we can never be friends.

652
00:44:22,559 --> 00:44:25,159
Speaker 1: I've heard the boomers. They like it's like one boomer

653
00:44:25,199 --> 00:44:27,320
says this, and then the rest of them like repeat it,

654
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,400
Like what does hiding under the desk for a new

655
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,400
Cup to do with anything, anything to do with like

656
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,679
good argumentation or like it's.

657
00:44:35,519 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 19: This Yeah, media, you pretty much know you know exactly

658
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,719
what I'm talking about, and I figured you could get

659
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,360
a laugh out of it. But it really is sad

660
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,000
at the end of the day. Man, then we just

661
00:44:45,039 --> 00:44:46,880
have to pray for these people, you.

662
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: Know, really, yeah, I mean, if they can't read Galatians

663
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,639
in the Book of Hebrews, both of which are written

664
00:44:52,679 --> 00:44:55,039
to refute this very error, which was one of the

665
00:44:55,079 --> 00:44:57,119
earliest errors in the Church, and if they can't read

666
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,480
Acts fifteen and see that, you know, the Church obviously

667
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:05,320
decided that Gentiles don't support and keep Jewish traditions. I mean,

668
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,840
I don't know what to say other than just I

669
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,960
don't know, like, uh, has sony did you want to? Yeah?

670
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,800
I guess, just love your parents instead of trying to

671
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:16,840
debate with him. That's one thing I've learned.

672
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 8: Uh huh, all right, cool, let me make sure can

673
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:22,599
you still hear me?

674
00:45:23,159 --> 00:45:25,280
Speaker 1: Yeah? All right, cool? Just making sure.

675
00:45:26,079 --> 00:45:28,119
Speaker 8: All right, So I'm actually gonna switch out the question

676
00:45:28,159 --> 00:45:31,840
I had earlier. I guess there's been enough you know,

677
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,920
discussion about the whole misfit patriot things so I'm gonna

678
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:35,920
just move it, move that along. Can I ask you

679
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,639
a Can I ask you a political question, like specifically

680
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:39,280
about Trump.

681
00:45:40,159 --> 00:45:43,119
Speaker 1: Well, let's ask the misfit patriot question first, because it's

682
00:45:43,159 --> 00:45:48,360
still relevant because apparently there's way more uh you know,

683
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,239
dispensational minded evangelical people out here than I expected.

684
00:45:53,119 --> 00:45:55,559
Speaker 8: Well see, I will. I'll basically just skip to the

685
00:45:55,639 --> 00:45:57,679
end of it then. So all right, so at the

686
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,280
very at the very end, like sense, right before, right

687
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,280
before you, right before you booted him. You know, when

688
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,639
he did the whole he did the like retar voice thing.

689
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,440
I'm like, he didn't he didn't finish it, but it

690
00:46:10,519 --> 00:46:12,440
was it was clear as they what he was about

691
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,800
to go into was was just arguing numbers with you.

692
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,320
So he like he was getting ready to say, I know,

693
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:25,360
he spent something out like however many yeah, yeah, of

694
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,840
that type of thing. So like that's that's that's pretty

695
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,719
much all of us. Well, I guess it really wasn't

696
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:31,199
a question. I was actually just gonna make a point

697
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,400
that I've seen him, and I saw some and I

698
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,320
saw I saw like all up and down like his

699
00:46:38,199 --> 00:46:40,800
you know, his replies or the people that actually still

700
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,599
agree with him after after even watching it, Like, I

701
00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:45,800
don't understand how somebody could see that and then still

702
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:46,519
side with them.

703
00:46:46,519 --> 00:46:50,559
Speaker 1: But you know, they're well, I mean, I don't even

704
00:46:50,599 --> 00:46:52,800
know what that's supposed to prove that So what just

705
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:57,880
a bunch of Protestants have an erroneous view about in America,

706
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,559
about theology. I mean, all that, that's all that proves

707
00:47:02,679 --> 00:47:05,000
it's just a fallacy. First of all, that the majority

708
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:05,960
make it true.

709
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,039
Speaker 8: Yeah, you see, but that's but that's like, that's I

710
00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:11,800
actually wanted to see, like whatever whatever he was gonna

711
00:47:12,159 --> 00:47:14,440
say next, because obviously it was gonna be places either way.

712
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,639
But regardless of he just appealing to killing the majority

713
00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:22,280
of you. So I'm thinking that he say, since they're

714
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,000
that many many people that agree with him, like I

715
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,559
guess the ironically enough to be an argument that left

716
00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:33,000
his shoes all the time against us, that since there's

717
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,079
x amount of people that agree with his position, ours

718
00:47:36,159 --> 00:47:36,719
doesn't matter.

719
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 1: Because yeah, well yeah, I think what people when people

720
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,559
when people do that, they're looking for rhetorical points. They're

721
00:47:42,559 --> 00:47:44,679
trying to score points to the audience to where they're

722
00:47:44,679 --> 00:47:47,840
forcing you to say that the majority are wrong and

723
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,000
so therefore you're being divisive and this kind of stuff,

724
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:51,760
that's what he's going for.

725
00:47:53,599 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 8: There was something he something he did earlier in the

726
00:47:56,199 --> 00:47:59,119
debate where he was essentially just trying to be tangentially

727
00:47:59,119 --> 00:48:01,159
correct about stuff. I think that's even I think that's

728
00:48:01,199 --> 00:48:03,840
way worse than like people that just try and like

729
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,559
appeal to majority, like you know, being what's the worst.

730
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:09,320
But it may it may even be equivocation, not just

731
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,039
being pedantic. But yeah, that's that's pretty much. That's pretty

732
00:48:12,079 --> 00:48:13,119
much all I was gonna say about.

733
00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what, what did you want to say

734
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:16,800
about Trump? All right?

735
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 8: So, and and I like, I'm not sure if you

736
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,079
said anything about this recently. I tend to catch every

737
00:48:24,079 --> 00:48:24,719
single stream.

738
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:25,039
Speaker 22: I don't.

739
00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:28,519
Speaker 8: I don't normally catch the spaces unless they're also, you know,

740
00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:31,199
like on YouTube. So you may have said something about it,

741
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:32,679
and I just did, and I just missed it. But

742
00:48:33,159 --> 00:48:35,599
obviously I agree. I'm glad he's doing the whole, you know,

743
00:48:35,599 --> 00:48:38,679
a bit cool thing. I'm not like Pepe the Frog,

744
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,280
if you you know what I mean by Pepe the Frog,

745
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,679
I'm not. I'm not a doomer when it comes to Trump.

746
00:48:42,679 --> 00:48:44,679
I don't think he's I don't think he's sold. I

747
00:48:44,679 --> 00:48:45,400
don't think he's some.

748
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 9: I don't.

749
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,079
Speaker 8: I don't take it that serious as far as it

750
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,079
as far as it comes with Trump or whatever. So

751
00:48:53,599 --> 00:48:56,239
I honestly like my question it kind of just BOI

752
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,239
was up, like, how do you how do you feel

753
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:02,280
about like how he's done so far? I guess in

754
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,119
the in this current administration, because I do I do

755
00:49:05,199 --> 00:49:09,280
agree as far as like with Pepe or whoever, anybody,

756
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,280
anybody has been like kind of like kind of shipping

757
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,079
on them for the past couple of months, Like this

758
00:49:13,119 --> 00:49:18,119
whole Israel thing is is completely it's completely going overboard,

759
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,440
like not just the support, but it's just it's like

760
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,880
a complete disregard of you know, like us over here,

761
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,880
not just him, but obviously every single person he has

762
00:49:27,159 --> 00:49:31,000
up and down his cabinet is absolutely ridiculous. But I

763
00:49:31,079 --> 00:49:32,559
just I just wanted to get your opinion on that

764
00:49:32,559 --> 00:49:34,360
because I think one of.

765
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:40,079
Speaker 1: The biggest mistakes is that it's all staffs, people of

766
00:49:40,199 --> 00:49:43,079
this very evangelical mindset that we're talking about. I mean,

767
00:49:43,159 --> 00:49:47,840
making that ridiculous con man woman the faith and value

768
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,760
as a woman or whatever she is, that paula TBN

769
00:49:51,159 --> 00:49:57,239
clown I mean, that's a huge fail, but I would

770
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,159
say that, you know, it's all the other stuff he

771
00:50:00,199 --> 00:50:02,800
has done is at least way better than I would

772
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:07,119
have hoped for. So, you know, I just when good

773
00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:10,239
things happen, I'm like happy because I expect the worst

774
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,679
in politics. So when ever there's anything good, I can

775
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:19,480
just be pleasantly surprised because I expect the worst. Let's

776
00:50:19,519 --> 00:50:25,920
see doctor Pete and then we'll go to some of

777
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:32,880
the people in line. We go to seven people. You

778
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:33,880
got I'm your dude.

779
00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 22: Oh hey, Jay, they must be a little bit of

780
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:38,599
a delay, can you hear me?

781
00:50:38,639 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 1: Now? Yeah?

782
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 22: Hey, A quick question for you. I thought it was

783
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,360
just brilliant insightful about this. This numeric number of six

784
00:50:46,519 --> 00:50:48,880
one six or six sixty six has a time stamp.

785
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:50,880
I just want to explore that a little bit more,

786
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,400
double click on it. Based on that reference, then, what

787
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,840
can you say about events and revelations that are exposed

788
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,159
sort of following that passage before? Like, is there anything

789
00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:05,760
else that you would correlate with with references of kingdoms

790
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,880
on Earth? I mean, was I always was thought that Constantine,

791
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,559
the greats Vizantium was a thousand years on the ground,

792
00:51:12,639 --> 00:51:14,440
But no, I just wanted to hear more about what

793
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:15,239
your thoughts were on that.

794
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,599
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I don't I don't know that I

795
00:51:17,599 --> 00:51:24,480
could specifically identify events after that passage with specific events

796
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,440
in Church history, because I think that many of the

797
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:32,880
events in the immediate context deal with Nero Jerusalem and

798
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,159
the destruction of Rome. I'm excuse me, the destruction of Jerusalem.

799
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,119
So I think that the whore that aligns with the

800
00:51:40,159 --> 00:51:45,360
beast is the high priest aligning itself with Rome, for example,

801
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,639
the Crucifide Christ. That's why the city in Revelation is

802
00:51:48,679 --> 00:51:51,119
explicitly said to be the city where Jesus was crucified.

803
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,119
So I mean, I think John left us no doubts

804
00:51:53,119 --> 00:51:56,320
as to who and what the identity of the city is.

805
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:01,840
It's the nation state of Israel undergoing the chastisement that

806
00:52:02,159 --> 00:52:05,800
is mirroring the previous defilings of the Temple, the abominations

807
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,760
of desolations that we read about in Daniel nine and

808
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,760
in the Book of Maccabees and in the Babylonian Captivity.

809
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,679
So these are previous defilements of the temple and what

810
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,800
Jesus talks about in Matthew twenty four and twenty one

811
00:52:18,559 --> 00:52:20,920
are the defilement of that existing temple in his day,

812
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,480
Herod's Temple and the destruction of that temple in seventy

813
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,360
eighty by Titus Vespasian. So you notice this mirroring effect

814
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:35,159
that occurs. There's no possibility for an Orthodox person to

815
00:52:35,199 --> 00:52:41,280
say that the Byzantine Empire is the millennial reign, because

816
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,519
the Second Ecumenical Council forbids any form of killism, which

817
00:52:45,559 --> 00:52:50,000
is any form of literal thousand year reign. So it's

818
00:52:50,039 --> 00:52:52,079
not a thousand years. That's what the Creed says. This

819
00:52:52,159 --> 00:52:55,000
kingdom will have no end, so it has to be

820
00:52:55,559 --> 00:52:58,400
the kingdom is the Church. The Church is eternal. Hence

821
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:02,639
the Church the kingdom has no end. But I think

822
00:53:02,639 --> 00:53:06,719
that aside from a lot of the historical context of

823
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:08,760
the Book of Revelation, which we can I think pen

824
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,639
on the Book of or that's give me the time

825
00:53:10,679 --> 00:53:13,599
of some of the events are describing the Book of Acts.

826
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:16,079
Some of what's in Matthew twenty four is in the

827
00:53:16,119 --> 00:53:19,880
Book of Acts, and then that mirrors as a prototype

828
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:21,440
the end of the world. So the destruction of the

829
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:26,599
temple is a little miniature cosmos when the temples destroy.

830
00:53:26,639 --> 00:53:30,400
That's a sign of the final destruction of the entire universe.

831
00:53:31,199 --> 00:53:33,360
And so what happens is then mirrored at the very

832
00:53:33,519 --> 00:53:36,760
end end of time whenever, that is when we have

833
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,719
the final Antichrist and his attempt to you know, control

834
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,039
everyone and enforce the worship of the beast. And there

835
00:53:44,079 --> 00:53:49,039
will be some probably apostate church, which is the false

836
00:53:49,039 --> 00:53:51,320
prophet in the Book of Revelation, all of which again

837
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:56,039
is mirrored in the first century in terms of partial preterism.

838
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,440
So most of the church fathers, when it comes to

839
00:53:59,159 --> 00:54:04,159
especially Eastern falls, Saint John Christis, sat Athanasius Cyril of Alexandria,

840
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,920
they will interpret the passages like Luke twenty one in

841
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:12,000
Matthew twenty four Daniel nine as fulfilled in the partial

842
00:54:12,039 --> 00:54:16,880
Predoros first century. Since so even the epistle Barnabas, the earliest,

843
00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:20,519
one of the earliest texts, explicitly says a post apisode

844
00:54:20,519 --> 00:54:22,119
at text. It especially says the seventy eighty is a

845
00:54:22,119 --> 00:54:26,199
fulfillment of a lot of these things. So that's my

846
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:30,199
answer that milk, Miguel, what's up? My godfather, by the way,

847
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,960
just put together and edited a thousand page commentary on

848
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,639
the Book of Revelation, So we did a whole podcast

849
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,920
on that written by James Jordan and then edited by

850
00:54:40,079 --> 00:54:43,360
my godfather's Orthodox so he kind of tried to shape

851
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,440
it up a little bit so that there wasn't much

852
00:54:46,559 --> 00:54:51,000
Protestant influence in it. But the three volume series called

853
00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:55,880
Revelation Explained by James Jordan is out that my godfather edited,

854
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:01,320
and it's a really cool series on days of Vengeance

855
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:06,599
in the Apostle Seeing Anti Christ book from Jordan Reil Monastery,

856
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,519
a little like fifty page pamphlet book. It's good and

857
00:55:10,639 --> 00:55:12,599
it makes the point that I just made the very

858
00:55:12,639 --> 00:55:15,000
beginning that seventy eighty is a type of the end

859
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:41,719
of the world. Miguel h Gotta, I'm mute. Miguel Bathe Gotta,

860
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:47,760
I'm mute. Can y'all know? Amy?

861
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:49,519
Speaker 5: Hi?

862
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,599
Speaker 1: How can you? Hey? What's up? What's up?

863
00:55:52,679 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 23: A question about dispensationalism. Do you need to support Israel

864
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:00,320
to be a dispensationalist, because that there's like of two

865
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,079
sides here. You have people who think that Israel is

866
00:56:03,079 --> 00:56:05,119
important for the end times, and then they support Israel

867
00:56:05,199 --> 00:56:07,239
and think that we have a mandate two. And then

868
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,360
you have people who take like a really metaphorical view

869
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,159
of Revelation. So my question is what about the view

870
00:56:12,199 --> 00:56:16,079
that Israel is important for end times and that if

871
00:56:16,119 --> 00:56:19,039
you if we look at the Jewish Messiah, he actually

872
00:56:19,079 --> 00:56:22,119
has a lot of similarities with the Antichrist in Revelation,

873
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,400
right because the Jewish Messiah. They believe that the Jewish

874
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:25,480
Messiah is going to come down.

875
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 1: Okay, so some dispensationalists will even admit and believe that

876
00:56:32,079 --> 00:56:34,760
there will be a Jewish Messiah that will deceive Jews.

877
00:56:35,679 --> 00:56:40,239
But every dispensationalist in terms of the history of this movement,

878
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:44,280
from Schofield Darby all the way up to you know,

879
00:56:44,679 --> 00:56:50,920
John Hagar whoever, absolutely believes in the mandate for Christians

880
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,559
support to support the secular nation state of Israel. So

881
00:56:54,679 --> 00:56:57,079
you cannot. I've never heard of a dispensationalist who doesn't

882
00:56:57,079 --> 00:56:59,599
believe that. It's kind of wrapped up in the whole idea.

883
00:57:00,599 --> 00:57:03,320
But no, the orthodox position does believe that there will

884
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,199
be a future conversion of the Jews. Most of the

885
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,159
Church fathers explicitly say this. So now that is not

886
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:12,000
the two things are not equated.

887
00:57:13,159 --> 00:57:13,760
Speaker 23: Okay, thank you.

888
00:57:14,039 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: I was worried.

889
00:57:14,519 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 23: I was a dispositionalist, even though I'm against it.

890
00:57:17,199 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: No, no, no, So dispensationalism is this idea that from

891
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:25,599
Schofield and John Nelson Darby, particularly the Scofield Bible, is

892
00:57:25,639 --> 00:57:28,880
what popularized it. The idea that there are a series

893
00:57:29,079 --> 00:57:33,719
of conflicting ways that God has chosen to work with mankind.

894
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:38,559
So when Avenue failed, that was Plan A. God instituted

895
00:57:38,639 --> 00:57:42,199
Plan B right, the Covenant with Noah. When that failed,

896
00:57:42,239 --> 00:57:46,239
God instituted the next one, which is the Covenant with Abraham.

897
00:57:47,199 --> 00:57:50,119
So because God said that the Covenant of Abraham is eternal,

898
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,000
Jews think our scimun dispensations think that the nation state

899
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:55,880
of Israel has what they call a dual covenant, that

900
00:57:56,039 --> 00:57:58,239
they have a covenant that was always with Him as

901
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,480
a nation state. So they do not see the Kingdom

902
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,480
as the Church. They do not believe the Church is

903
00:58:05,519 --> 00:58:09,800
the Fulfillment and the Telos of Israel. They think that

904
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,199
there's two covenants running parallel. There's a God, a plan

905
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,559
that God has for the Church which is separate from

906
00:58:17,119 --> 00:58:21,320
the nation state of Israel. And then Jesus returns after

907
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,880
the seven year Tribulation to set up an earthly kingdom

908
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:32,119
in Jerusalem with animal sacrifices and a temple. So that's

909
00:58:32,679 --> 00:58:36,840
the basics of like classic quote dispensationalism all the What

910
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,639
they mean is, in this classic sense, there's seven dispensations

911
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,960
of different plans as to how God worked with man.

912
00:58:45,039 --> 00:58:48,360
But in the Orthodox jew and in all classic Protestant views,

913
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,519
there's only been one way to be saved in any age,

914
00:58:52,599 --> 00:58:56,639
whether it's Noah, whether it's Abraham, it's faith in Christ

915
00:58:58,159 --> 00:59:01,280
literally the only way. And so the sea that's mentioned

916
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:05,239
in the Abrahamic prophecies or scim me promises of Genesis twelve, fifteen,

917
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:10,159
seventeen twenty two, that seed is the Messiah. He is

918
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,599
the Seed, as Paul says in Galatians three in Romans four,

919
00:59:14,159 --> 00:59:16,239
so the only way to be a member of the Covenant,

920
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:21,280
and there's only one Covenant, is to be in Christ. Hence,

921
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,679
in Romans eleven, Paul says that Jews are grafted out

922
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:29,400
from unbelief, Gentiles are grafted in, and if Gentiles don't believe,

923
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:31,960
they'll be grafted out, and Jews can be grafted back in.

924
00:59:32,599 --> 00:59:36,239
But the grafting is to one tree, not two trees,

925
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,920
not multiple trees. One lord, one faith, one body, one sheep, fold,

926
00:59:40,159 --> 00:59:43,000
one tree, one vine, et cetera, et cetera, one kingdom,

927
00:59:44,239 --> 00:59:46,400
and you're either enter out based on faith in Christ.

928
00:59:46,679 --> 00:59:49,360
There's no dual covenant. But it also doesn't mean that

929
00:59:49,519 --> 00:59:51,559
there's no such thing as Jews or that there's not

930
00:59:51,639 --> 01:00:07,440
an as chetological place for a future conversion. David Yo yo.

931
01:00:08,159 --> 01:00:11,719
Speaker 24: Yeah, so I had a question about Saint Paul. So

932
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,039
when Saint Paul writes to the churches and his epistles,

933
01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:17,400
we can see that he refers to the believers as

934
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:21,559
saints as ichioi, the holy ones, which means holy in Greek.

935
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,519
Speaker 11: So why does he call them holy if they were

936
01:00:26,599 --> 01:00:27,960
not holy yet?

937
01:00:29,239 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 1: Because he's intending to spur them on to what they're

938
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:37,400
called to. So they have the potentiality for that, and

939
01:00:37,519 --> 01:00:39,400
then they're called to that. That's why he says, you

940
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:40,639
have to persevere into the end.

941
01:00:42,199 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 11: Okay. So they have the potential to be holy, but.

942
01:00:45,559 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: Well to be what we call a saint in the

943
01:00:47,519 --> 01:00:50,199
sense of like making it to the end of your

944
01:00:50,239 --> 01:00:53,239
life and dying in Christ. Now there are people who

945
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:53,960
are holy in this.

946
01:00:54,039 --> 01:00:59,199
Speaker 11: Life too, Okay, God, so these people can fall off.

947
01:01:00,039 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's multiple places throughout and that's not where you're

948
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:02,760
warned of.

949
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 11: Right, Okay, that was my concern.

950
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:07,719
Speaker 1: Thank you.

951
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 11: Felt you know.

952
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:30,559
Speaker 25: I had a question. It was specifically on christology and

953
01:01:30,679 --> 01:01:36,880
the hyposthetic union. And my question is because Christ, like

954
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:41,400
in the an Orthodoxy, Christ shares the same nature as

955
01:01:42,679 --> 01:01:45,800
the Father and the Holy Spirit because he's God. And

956
01:01:47,079 --> 01:01:50,880
when Christ, say, for example, feels something like the crucifixion,

957
01:01:51,199 --> 01:01:56,079
he feels pain the how because his essence, because he's

958
01:01:56,119 --> 01:01:59,559
two persons, I mean his two wills, like human and

959
01:01:59,679 --> 01:02:06,679
also God. And my question is, how does this human will,

960
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:10,679
which I mean his divine will, which comes from his

961
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:14,199
divine essence, how does the Father not also feel that

962
01:02:15,599 --> 01:02:16,760
since he shares the same.

963
01:02:16,639 --> 01:02:20,559
Speaker 1: Essence, Because the divine will, just like the divine energies,

964
01:02:20,639 --> 01:02:24,519
are uniquely actualized in each person in their own way

965
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:28,039
or mode or role. So the Son has a unique

966
01:02:28,199 --> 01:02:32,199
role or mode according to his person or hypostasis by

967
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:37,599
which he enacts and actualizes this single divine will. So

968
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:42,039
even though there's an inseparability of operations, it doesn't mean

969
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,559
that there's not a distinction in mode.

970
01:02:48,119 --> 01:02:54,119
Speaker 25: And by that same extension, how could for example, when

971
01:02:54,199 --> 01:02:56,639
Jesus says I am the father or one?

972
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,639
Speaker 11: What does he mean by this specifically.

973
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:03,079
Speaker 1: One in terms of nature, one in terms of pericuesis

974
01:03:03,199 --> 01:03:06,039
which is divine in dwelling. So they perfectly in dwell

975
01:03:06,119 --> 01:03:09,960
one another, and they perfectly share the same essence.

976
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 25: But can can Jesus also share in the attribute of

977
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:24,400
like I'm trying to remember, of begetting another divine person

978
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:25,239
for example?

979
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 1: The no, because that's what we call a hypostatic property,

980
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,599
because that picks out one of the persons. Those are

981
01:03:30,599 --> 01:03:34,639
the properties that are not shareable or communicable. So the

982
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:38,400
Father is the sole cause found an archae, so he

983
01:03:38,519 --> 01:03:43,039
alone can beget or cause another person. That's what picks

984
01:03:43,119 --> 01:03:46,360
him out as the father. Thus Jesus can't have that

985
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,760
property because that would make him the father. So these

986
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,559
are called hyposthetic properties. But the other things that we

987
01:03:52,639 --> 01:03:55,400
call attributes or operations or energies, those are the things

988
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,679
that are common to all three persons. And as the

989
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:03,119
Cappadocians teach, there's nothing in God that is between two

990
01:04:04,559 --> 01:04:08,760
or just excuse me. Anything that God has is either

991
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,519
a hyposthetic property proper to one person, or it's a

992
01:04:11,639 --> 01:04:16,079
common attribute common to all three. That's it. So like

993
01:04:16,239 --> 01:04:19,000
love a lot of times you'll hear like Roman Catholics

994
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,599
say that this Holy Spirit is love. Now, the Holy Spirit,

995
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,320
just like the Father and the Son all have the

996
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,920
attribute or energy of love. So operations or attributes are

997
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:35,400
not persons. Do that makes sense? Yeah, So it either

998
01:04:35,519 --> 01:04:37,280
has to be It either has to be a property

999
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,920
of one person, like the cause is the Father, or

1000
01:04:41,039 --> 01:04:44,719
it's something that all three share, like love, glory, omnipotence,

1001
01:04:45,119 --> 01:04:45,559
et cetera.

1002
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,639
Speaker 25: If because I come from a sort of Muslim background,

1003
01:04:51,679 --> 01:04:56,039
that's why I asked, because I sort of struggle with understanding.

1004
01:04:56,119 --> 01:04:59,400
But if the Father, for example, has the he only

1005
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:03,840
has he he alone has the property of begetting another

1006
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:10,000
person does wouldn't that make the Father a different grade

1007
01:05:10,199 --> 01:05:16,119
of divinity in the in the sense of the divine nature.

1008
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: Because that's why it's a property a person and not nature.

1009
01:05:20,119 --> 01:05:22,880
So being the cause in the Godhead is what picks

1010
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:25,880
out the person of the Father. It's not a property

1011
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:28,559
the divine nature. So again, the first point that you

1012
01:05:28,639 --> 01:05:32,440
want to understand in our theology is a distinction between

1013
01:05:32,559 --> 01:05:36,079
nature and person. Nature is what's common and person is

1014
01:05:36,159 --> 01:05:40,480
what's particular or what individuates. So I'm the person Jay,

1015
01:05:40,519 --> 01:05:44,519
you're the person, Bob. Personhood picks or hypostasis picks out

1016
01:05:44,559 --> 01:05:48,320
the individual, the subject or the agent. The nature is

1017
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,960
what is what picks out what's common between us. What's

1018
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,440
common between you and I is human nature. So if

1019
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,159
you think about a father and a son, a father

1020
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,199
is greater than the son in one sense, in that

1021
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,920
he is the cause of the son, and the son

1022
01:06:02,039 --> 01:06:05,440
submits to that father in terms of his role of authority.

1023
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,159
And this is why we call it monarchical trinitarianism in

1024
01:06:08,199 --> 01:06:10,880
the Orthodox Church. But if you notice between a father

1025
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:14,079
and the son, even the human example, the son doesn't

1026
01:06:14,119 --> 01:06:17,480
have more human nature or less human nature than his father,

1027
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:20,639
even though his father is the source and his father

1028
01:06:20,719 --> 01:06:23,039
has authority over him. So in the same way, Jesus

1029
01:06:23,079 --> 01:06:26,159
says everything he has he receives from the Father in

1030
01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:29,079
the Book of John. But that doesn't mean that anything

1031
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,800
that he has is lesser, because as the divine nature,

1032
01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:36,480
it's common amongst all three. There's no such thing as

1033
01:06:37,079 --> 01:06:38,679
levels or degrees of divine nature.

1034
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:47,119
Speaker 25: Okay, in that sense, with the Jesus also receiving because Jesus,

1035
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,920
because I see a lot of people like I don't

1036
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,199
know what's your position on Jesus Jesus not knowing the hour,

1037
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:59,320
but is it specifically him also receiving that knowledge from

1038
01:06:59,320 --> 01:06:59,920
the Father as well.

1039
01:07:01,199 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 1: It's a use of rhetoric, just like when he says

1040
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:04,280
that there's no one good.

1041
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 25: I was I was going to ask you specifically, because

1042
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:12,480
I remember one time a Muslim gave me the argument

1043
01:07:12,559 --> 01:07:17,840
that it's the distortion of the text and the apparent

1044
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,280
meaning of the text, because when he says only the

1045
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:25,440
Father is good. After Jesus says that to the man

1046
01:07:25,519 --> 01:07:27,719
approaching him, the man stops calling him good.

1047
01:07:28,719 --> 01:07:32,159
Speaker 1: No, it's again, It's just it's a common technique in

1048
01:07:32,199 --> 01:07:35,239
the Gospels to use rhetoric. Jesus says, cut your hand

1049
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:37,800
off if it causes you to sin. Okay, he's not

1050
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:39,760
telling you to literally cut your hand off. That's just

1051
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:44,000
an exaggerated rhetorical statement. In the same way, he says

1052
01:07:44,039 --> 01:07:46,119
there's no one good but God well, but he also

1053
01:07:46,239 --> 01:07:48,480
says that the good Man of the good treasure of

1054
01:07:48,519 --> 01:07:52,480
his heart, brings forth good things. So is he contradicting himself. No,

1055
01:07:52,599 --> 01:07:54,119
I mean, if you read the pastes where it says

1056
01:07:54,159 --> 01:07:55,599
that not even the son of Man, if you go

1057
01:07:55,639 --> 01:07:57,639
a few verses down, the apostles say we know that

1058
01:07:57,719 --> 01:08:01,079
you know all things. So even within the very passage,

1059
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:05,679
it still ascribes omniscience to Christ because he has a

1060
01:08:05,679 --> 01:08:09,079
divine nature, as you pointed out earlier, but his human

1061
01:08:09,199 --> 01:08:11,280
nature did grow in wisdom and knowledge, and so there

1062
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,280
is an element of mystery there. But it's not a

1063
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:17,720
contradiction because Jesus is a divine person with a divine

1064
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:22,439
mind with omniscience, even though the human nature did grow.

1065
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 25: Is there a way for because typically in the way

1066
01:08:31,359 --> 01:08:36,359
as a Muslim conceive wills and natures is how can

1067
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:40,079
it not be that a person with two wills, divine

1068
01:08:40,079 --> 01:08:43,319
one and the human one, how can it not make

1069
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:44,399
up two persons?

1070
01:08:45,199 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 1: How a property of nature and not a property of person.

1071
01:08:49,159 --> 01:08:51,920
This is what I was saying earlier, is that fundamental

1072
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:56,399
to Trinitarian theology and Christology is the distinction between nature

1073
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:59,319
and person. And you would be correct if will was

1074
01:08:59,359 --> 01:09:01,880
a property of persons, but it's not. It's a property

1075
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:04,439
of nature's and hence in the trinity there's one will

1076
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:09,800
and three persons. But good questions. I appreciate that. Tron,

1077
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:15,399
What's up? And then we'll go to truth and emulator

1078
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:21,439
and ultra kool aid and David, I'm you.

1079
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,720
Speaker 26: Hey, So I just had a quick question of hoping

1080
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:33,920
you'll settle a debate between me and another guy. But

1081
01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:37,239
when you are doing the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church,

1082
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:42,479
when you're taking the Eucharist, do you participate strictly in

1083
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:46,479
God's energy or do you or do you participate in

1084
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:49,359
His essence? Or do you believe that the essence is present?

1085
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,079
Speaker 1: No one participates in the divine essence, and no one

1086
01:09:53,159 --> 01:09:56,520
believes this, not even Roman Catholics. What you're partaking of

1087
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:59,439
in the Eucharist, as Saint Cyril of Alexandria says, is

1088
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:02,640
his applied flesh. And Cyril says in the Two Letters

1089
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:06,239
to six Census that is the uncreated grace and immortality

1090
01:10:06,319 --> 01:10:09,800
and power of God that deifies the flesh of Christ.

1091
01:10:10,279 --> 01:10:13,199
In other places, Cyril calls it the energies. So it's

1092
01:10:13,239 --> 01:10:15,800
not in either or you're partaking of the deified flesh,

1093
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:18,119
including the uncreated energy of Christ.

1094
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:29,600
Speaker 26: Okay, but I guess do you believe that the essence

1095
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:30,520
is at least present?

1096
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:31,119
Speaker 3: Well?

1097
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 1: The essence energy distinction is fundamental to all the Christian mysteries,

1098
01:10:36,159 --> 01:10:38,960
and so we believe in apathetic theology, which means that

1099
01:10:39,039 --> 01:10:41,800
you never see or partake of the divine essence. Nobody

1100
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:45,920
teaches this, not even Roman Catholics, not Protestants, not Orthodox.

1101
01:10:46,239 --> 01:10:50,079
So even though the divine essence is present in some sense,

1102
01:10:50,399 --> 01:10:53,199
you're not partaking of that because no one sees or

1103
01:10:53,239 --> 01:10:55,840
partakes of the Divine essence. We would be persons in

1104
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,399
the Trinity if we took particular the divine essence. That's

1105
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:00,680
why there's the essence entergy distinction. And according to Saint

1106
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,720
Basil that the energies come down to us, but the

1107
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:05,880
essence we do not know in Letter two thirty four.

1108
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:09,319
So in the Eucharist, the same principle applies. You're partaking

1109
01:11:09,399 --> 01:11:12,159
of the fullness of divinity and yet not the divine essence.

1110
01:11:12,279 --> 01:11:14,119
So it's not in either or, it's a both, and

1111
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:17,760
that includes the notion of mystery. Hence the mysteries.

1112
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,079
Speaker 26: Gotcha. Thank you for settling that. I appreciate it.

1113
01:11:22,279 --> 01:11:24,159
Speaker 1: It's a good question. And also, like you know, when

1114
01:11:24,239 --> 01:11:29,279
Christ is present, the divine hypostasis of Christ is what

1115
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:33,920
becomes incarnate. It's not technically speaking, the Divine Essence that

1116
01:11:34,039 --> 01:11:37,079
became incarnate. It's a divine person with the divine Essence

1117
01:11:37,119 --> 01:11:39,520
who became incarnate. And that's why in the Icon Council

1118
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:41,880
it says very clear as day, when we pick out

1119
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:44,840
Christ and the icons, we are not drawing an image

1120
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:48,279
or circumscribing the divine Essence. We are picking out and

1121
01:11:48,359 --> 01:11:53,840
circumscribing the hypostasis of the sun. And that's the divine hypostasis.

1122
01:11:54,039 --> 01:12:12,239
As the council says, John, what's up? Got un mute? John? Hey?

1123
01:12:12,279 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 9: Sorry about that. So a question for you. I was

1124
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:20,760
raised I would say dispensationalists didn't know it at the time,

1125
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:25,039
but I'm just now sort of had an experience. I

1126
01:12:25,119 --> 01:12:30,039
believe in God now. But if you were to set about,

1127
01:12:30,199 --> 01:12:33,119
you know, learning about the Bible, is it enough to

1128
01:12:33,319 --> 01:12:37,239
just take each book and know who the author and

1129
01:12:37,319 --> 01:12:40,520
who it was written to and read through it for

1130
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:43,319
yourself to come to this realization.

1131
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:50,640
Speaker 1: Realization of what.

1132
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 9: I'm sort of sorry. I just followed you, and it

1133
01:12:58,039 --> 01:13:05,000
sounds like it sound like you're coming from more orthodox

1134
01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:08,079
side of things, maybe Catholic.

1135
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:11,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Orthodox Christians are.

1136
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:16,359
Speaker 9: Okay, And I did hear listening to one of your

1137
01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:20,600
previous things, you said that Protestants, which I would say

1138
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:25,960
I was raised Protestant are heretics. Is it possible to

1139
01:13:26,039 --> 01:13:29,960
be a Protestant and not be a heretic based on

1140
01:13:30,199 --> 01:13:32,039
certain things you believe? Or do you have to be

1141
01:13:33,159 --> 01:13:36,560
part of a unbroken of the original Church.

1142
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:41,560
Speaker 1: Protestantism is a public confession of a specific body of

1143
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:44,960
teachings in terms of classical Protestantism, like the Five Solos.

1144
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:47,720
So the five solo is constant to what it means

1145
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:53,399
to be a Protestant historically classically. So if you confess that,

1146
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:58,880
that is immediately at odds with multiple teachings of the

1147
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:02,439
Orthodox Church, the Early Church, the Ecumenical Councils, the Icing Creed,

1148
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:05,439
et cetera. So to reject the Nicing Creed is to

1149
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:11,479
place oneself outside the bounds of classical historic Christianity. So, yes,

1150
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:15,279
Protestantism has a confession is heterodox, But that doesn't mean

1151
01:14:15,319 --> 01:14:17,720
that I'm judging every single individual Protestant thing. You're going

1152
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:21,760
to Hell, You're damned. I don't know people's destinies, and

1153
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,079
we're not told to people's destinies. God is the ultimate

1154
01:14:24,199 --> 01:14:27,079
judge of that. But we have the duty to tell

1155
01:14:27,159 --> 01:14:29,640
people that you do have to come into the Orthodox Church.

1156
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:32,199
Because Paul says there's one Lord, one faith, one body,

1157
01:14:32,239 --> 01:14:32,880
one baptism.

1158
01:14:35,279 --> 01:14:41,239
Speaker 9: Okay, that does make sense now, So it seems like

1159
01:14:42,039 --> 01:14:45,439
in the Orthodox Church they sort of promote like you're

1160
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:48,840
not individually learning the scriptures by reading it on your own,

1161
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:49,880
you're coming up through.

1162
01:14:51,279 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 1: The church.

1163
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:54,359
Speaker 9: And so I guess that's well, an individual can read.

1164
01:14:54,239 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 1: The scriptures and learn, but an individual also can misinterpret

1165
01:14:57,720 --> 01:14:59,840
the scriptures and come to all kinds of crazy conclusions.

1166
01:15:00,079 --> 01:15:02,119
So it's not that you can't do it, it's just

1167
01:15:02,199 --> 01:15:03,960
that it has to be done in the context of

1168
01:15:04,039 --> 01:15:06,159
the mind of the church, which is the mind of Christ.

1169
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:14,560
Speaker 9: Okay, right, And coming up through the Orthodox Church, is

1170
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:17,000
that how it's taught pretty much just knowing the context

1171
01:15:17,119 --> 01:15:20,079
or the history of the book, who it was written to,

1172
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:21,920
and what time period.

1173
01:15:22,239 --> 01:15:26,479
Speaker 1: Well, actually, no, I would say, I mean all those

1174
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:30,479
things matter. They're definitely part of Exegesus. But for us,

1175
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:33,039
the Bible is a liturgical document, which means that it's

1176
01:15:33,119 --> 01:15:36,399
meant to be heard throughout the year in the readings

1177
01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:38,560
in the church of the liturgical cycle. And that's because

1178
01:15:39,199 --> 01:15:44,119
just like Judaism, Christianity inherited the Temple Synagogue system of

1179
01:15:44,239 --> 01:15:48,880
daily readings electionaries, et ceterup and liturgical worship. So the

1180
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:52,600
real setting in context and milieu is within the liturgy.

1181
01:15:53,319 --> 01:15:55,760
But that doesn't mean that an individual can't read the Bible.

1182
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:59,319
It's just not the main sort of setting for the Bible.

1183
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:11,560
But good questions. I appreciate that truth matters, gonna unmute

1184
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:12,199
truth matters.

1185
01:16:14,239 --> 01:16:15,520
Speaker 9: Hey, Jay, how are you doing?

1186
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:16,319
Speaker 1: Good? What's up?

1187
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:21,720
Speaker 27: I had a specific question I had asked you before,

1188
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:26,159
but you didn't respond, actually blocked me. Good faith question

1189
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:30,439
on what your view on why full pretterism is not

1190
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:37,000
found biblically and I'm not using the creeds, not referring

1191
01:16:37,039 --> 01:16:38,560
to church history just from scripture.

1192
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 1: Why, well, there's no such thing as just referring to

1193
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:47,640
the scriptures because you don't have the scriptures. First of all, explain, well,

1194
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:49,680
you don't have the right Bible, So why would we

1195
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:52,319
listen to you about the interpretation of the book when

1196
01:16:52,399 --> 01:16:53,920
it's not your book and you don't have the right

1197
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:54,600
list of books.

1198
01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:01,600
Speaker 27: I mean, I'm not I'm not denig rating the role

1199
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:04,239
that the Church fathers did. I'm just saying specific, but the.

1200
01:17:04,279 --> 01:17:06,880
Speaker 1: Church fathers determine what books go in the Bible, So

1201
01:17:07,039 --> 01:17:09,439
how can you when that's prior to the Bible. How

1202
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:11,960
can you toss that out as secondary when it's prior

1203
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:12,520
to the Bible.

1204
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:17,359
Speaker 27: Well, I mean people can be infallible, just as you know,

1205
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:20,399
the Apostle has gotten arguments themselves and they didn't agree.

1206
01:17:21,159 --> 01:17:25,199
And so specifically, I think I saw you mentioned on

1207
01:17:25,359 --> 01:17:28,279
YouTube that, for instance, the events of seventy eight AD

1208
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:32,359
were a type and shadow of the destruction of the world,

1209
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:34,880
which I don't see that in scripture.

1210
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:36,199
Speaker 21: I don't see where it mentioned.

1211
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:38,479
Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter what you think is or is

1212
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:40,880
an a scripture because you don't have the right paradigm

1213
01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:43,760
or the right scriptures. Again for the second.

1214
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:49,680
Speaker 27: Time, even using that, even using the scriptures that the

1215
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:53,520
Church fathers and all of the Orthodox people, which I

1216
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:56,439
have no problem with the Orthodox Church, it's specifically aschatology

1217
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:57,199
I've never heard or.

1218
01:17:57,239 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 1: We do have a problem with the Orthodox Church because

1219
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:01,000
if you don't believe in the Second Advent, in the

1220
01:18:01,039 --> 01:18:06,800
bodily resurrection as a universal cosmological event, you're heterodox and

1221
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:09,199
you're not in the Church. You're not even a basic Christian.

1222
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:12,840
Speaker 27: Not necessarily because necessarily, because the.

1223
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:15,239
Speaker 1: Church teaches that you have to believe in the Second

1224
01:18:15,279 --> 01:18:17,239
Advent of Christ, the bodily resurrection.

1225
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:18,039
Speaker 9: I understand that.

1226
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:20,199
Speaker 1: So you don't believe in the body resurrection.

1227
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:26,319
Speaker 27: I believe that the resurrection from hades A hadan resi resurrection.

1228
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:28,960
Speaker 1: Stop redefining the terms in the sense of what the

1229
01:18:29,039 --> 01:18:32,079
Niceno Constantapolitan Creed says. You don't believe that. Therefore you're

1230
01:18:32,159 --> 01:18:35,279
not within the bounds of historic Christianity. You're not a Christian.

1231
01:18:36,359 --> 01:18:38,119
Speaker 9: I know that it's not in the bound.

1232
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:41,039
Speaker 1: Thank you. So you're having and you're not in the

1233
01:18:41,159 --> 01:18:43,520
church exactly, But you have to.

1234
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,640
Speaker 27: Understand what I'm saying. The Nicean Creed takes its statements

1235
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:49,159
from Matthew twenty four and any partial preterist.

1236
01:18:55,119 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 1: All right, enough of that, human I'm you. These people

1237
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:06,159
are idiots. I mean, Paul, it's like you cannot deny

1238
01:19:06,279 --> 01:19:08,960
the Bali resurrection and call yourself a Christian. And Paul

1239
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:12,359
says very clear a today that all humanity will be

1240
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:15,880
resurrected in one Christia is fifteen on the pattern of

1241
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:19,680
the extent of Adams Sin. This is why all the

1242
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,680
wicked are also resurrected. And so that's not even we're

1243
01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:25,600
talking to these people because they're literally Manicheans. They actually

1244
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:31,760
think that history, evil, et cetera, continues on for all eternity.

1245
01:19:32,079 --> 01:19:34,680
They actually think that the Second Coming and the Resurrection

1246
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:39,600
have already happened. They're literal gnostic Manichean heretics. And you

1247
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,119
heard him admit it too. He doesn't believe the creed

1248
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:49,279
human emulator. Hey, Jay, can you hear me? Awesome?

1249
01:19:49,359 --> 01:19:50,840
Speaker 21: Thank you so much for doing these.

1250
01:19:51,319 --> 01:19:53,239
Speaker 1: It actually is very helpful. I just found your.

1251
01:19:53,199 --> 01:19:57,319
Speaker 18: Channel from this guy who's Catholic, I think, but he's

1252
01:19:57,319 --> 01:19:59,560
thinking about the very orthodoxy, and so I've only gotten

1253
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,199
a to watch a couple of year debates. But I

1254
01:20:02,359 --> 01:20:06,000
was wondering, what are the best arguments you hear specifically

1255
01:20:06,039 --> 01:20:08,399
from atheists, because I used to be an atheist until

1256
01:20:08,399 --> 01:20:14,520
I converted that like are logically coherent both against like

1257
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:18,600
classical theism, then to Christianity than to Orthodoxy. Specifically, if

1258
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:20,119
you could go through those or if that's too.

1259
01:20:20,079 --> 01:20:24,520
Speaker 1: Bad the top for evangelicals, dispensationalists in times, Catholic Protestants,

1260
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,119
so not be need to be rude is not the

1261
01:20:27,199 --> 01:20:38,800
topics today, totally, Dallas, what's up? Got one? Hey? Jay?

1262
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:39,359
Speaker 11: How's it going?

1263
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:41,399
Speaker 1: Yeah? What's up?

1264
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:43,159
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1265
01:20:43,199 --> 01:20:46,279
Speaker 13: I was just wondering if the Orthodox Church or the

1266
01:20:46,359 --> 01:20:49,680
Fathers actually taught like how the conversion of the Jews

1267
01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:52,800
has played out, because I know a dispensationalists believe about it.

1268
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:55,279
Speaker 1: But I don't know. There's no specifics. We don't know

1269
01:20:55,359 --> 01:21:19,680
exactly how it happens. All right, question Ultra Violet? Are

1270
01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:19,960
you there?

1271
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:22,119
Speaker 28: Hello?

1272
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:22,840
Speaker 1: Hey?

1273
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:30,760
Speaker 29: Okay, So I had a question about Zachariah fourteeneen sixteen?

1274
01:21:31,399 --> 01:21:33,760
Speaker 8: Is that talking about a physical reign of price on

1275
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:34,359
earth and.

1276
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:42,680
Speaker 1: Orbout that it's a present reality in the church?

1277
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:47,279
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay.

1278
01:21:49,159 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 8: The nation's having to go towards Israel to celebrate Israel

1279
01:21:54,119 --> 01:21:55,279
is the escalations.

1280
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:02,800
Speaker 1: The celebration is the liturgy. What does Act sixteen say, sixteen?

1281
01:22:03,159 --> 01:22:06,760
What does Act sixteen say is the tabernacle.

1282
01:22:12,159 --> 01:22:12,359
Speaker 21: Church?

1283
01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:13,000
Speaker 1: Are you there?

1284
01:22:16,039 --> 01:22:16,199
Speaker 9: Oh?

1285
01:22:16,399 --> 01:22:20,520
Speaker 1: So there you go? So yeah, the Tabernacle of David

1286
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:23,479
that has rebuilt is the church according to Acts sixteen.

1287
01:22:25,239 --> 01:22:27,640
So Zachariah is fulfilled in the church.

1288
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:32,239
Speaker 8: Okay, thank you.

1289
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:34,760
Speaker 1: The meal that everyone's eating is the liturgy.

1290
01:22:39,119 --> 01:22:46,840
Speaker 5: Graham, Hey, j can you hear me?

1291
01:22:50,239 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 13: I was just listening in and hearing you argue with

1292
01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:58,000
that other evangelical I grew up evangelical man a night,

1293
01:22:58,039 --> 01:22:58,560
and I'm.

1294
01:22:59,359 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 21: In the coming line going to be starting to go

1295
01:23:01,079 --> 01:23:06,600
to an Orthodox perish with my wife done.

1296
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:10,159
Speaker 13: But mostly from listening to your stuff and your debates

1297
01:23:10,199 --> 01:23:12,479
and stuff, we're kind of that tipping point.

1298
01:23:14,199 --> 01:23:16,039
Speaker 21: Anyway. One of the things I was going to say

1299
01:23:16,399 --> 01:23:21,640
and suggest when arguing with Protestants and evangelicals, unless you

1300
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:25,560
can get them to admit to some sort of relevance

1301
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:29,520
of church history and like drawing.

1302
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:33,159
Speaker 13: Ideas of how to interpret the Bible from early church

1303
01:23:33,239 --> 01:23:35,960
fathers and stuff, it's really no point in arguing from

1304
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:37,239
a biblical basis.

1305
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:40,880
Speaker 1: Because that's why, because they're just they're never going to change.

1306
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:43,079
Speaker 21: They're just going to disagree and say, well, that's not

1307
01:23:43,199 --> 01:23:43,560
my inter.

1308
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:45,920
Speaker 1: And they're going to throw a bunch of other verses

1309
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:47,479
that contradict whatever you're saying.

1310
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:52,159
Speaker 13: So yeah, exactly, it's just like a big quote mining

1311
01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:54,840
game basically, and whoever has the most verses.

1312
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:57,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why the whole purpose of undercutting at all

1313
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:01,039
with the Canada Scripture shows that the Church is prior

1314
01:24:01,159 --> 01:24:05,239
to your interpretation of scriptures. The Church determine what goes

1315
01:24:05,279 --> 01:24:05,720
in the book.

1316
01:24:08,159 --> 01:24:11,840
Speaker 4: Well, and that's why none of these spam Protestant SOLA

1317
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:15,720
scripture accounts like these goofy people like autocorrect or Sola

1318
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:19,560
Chad will ever join VC or have a Twitter Space

1319
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:23,520
debate because they know that if we don't allow them

1320
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:27,159
to just spam random Bible versus that they can go nowhere.

1321
01:24:27,399 --> 01:24:30,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also a lot of these accounts are fake grifter accounts,

1322
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:33,800
like that woman from a few weeks ago, that Patriarchy

1323
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:37,520
woman that looks to be a fraud account. So there's

1324
01:24:37,520 --> 01:24:40,000
no telling how many of these evangelical accounts are also

1325
01:24:40,159 --> 01:24:46,039
probably grifters or fake ass dumb rappers.

1326
01:24:47,520 --> 01:24:49,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no telling how many of them are mine,

1327
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:52,560
And so people shouldn't dig into it or ask any questions.

1328
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:53,520
Speaker 5: We should change the topic.

1329
01:24:55,479 --> 01:25:01,399
Speaker 1: They're all chases socc accounts. David, Yeah, what's up, guys,

1330
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:03,600
what's uh? First? Yeah, I just want to say I

1331
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:05,199
appreciate all the work you do.

1332
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:08,800
Speaker 5: You really helped me get out of prostantism, which is great.

1333
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:09,159
Speaker 1: Cool.

1334
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:13,520
Speaker 30: Yeah, And I actually did you know it's funny that

1335
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:15,840
you guys were just talking about that, you know, just

1336
01:25:16,079 --> 01:25:17,079
the machine gunning that.

1337
01:25:17,079 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 21: They do a Bible verses where they're like, well look

1338
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:19,680
at this, look at this.

1339
01:25:20,119 --> 01:25:21,399
Speaker 1: It's actually just dealing with that.

1340
01:25:22,439 --> 01:25:24,760
Speaker 30: Have a reform buddy, and it's like it feels like

1341
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:26,640
you're just kind of talking to a wall at that point.

1342
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, because it's like no matter how many Bible.

1343
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:31,800
Speaker 30: Verses one quote, it's like, well look at this Bible verse,

1344
01:25:31,960 --> 01:25:32,600
this refutes you.

1345
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:34,600
Speaker 5: And then they just like spit out like another two

1346
01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:34,960
or three.

1347
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:36,560
Speaker 8: Then it's like there's no point.

1348
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:38,600
Speaker 30: Just like the last guy say, it's like once you

1349
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:41,800
go back to like the presuppositions and like, okay, well

1350
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:43,439
how did the early fathers interpret this?

1351
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:44,560
Speaker 1: Like how did they read that?

1352
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:47,880
Speaker 30: Then it's like it completely refutes them, and they're like,

1353
01:25:48,399 --> 01:25:50,359
well it doesn't really make sense to but on what

1354
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:52,399
This has nothing to do with the question I had

1355
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:56,960
as far as like penal substitution is there?

1356
01:25:57,199 --> 01:25:59,600
Speaker 5: Do they have any good argument for that? Because it

1357
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:01,359
seems like when you kind of point out the error

1358
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:05,600
in the penal substitutionary toment, there's like no wiggle room there.

1359
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:07,079
Do they have like a good argument for that.

1360
01:26:08,359 --> 01:26:11,640
Speaker 1: It's just what they read into. By the way, earlier

1361
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:15,039
I said Acts sixteen, I meant to say Acts fifteen sixteen,

1362
01:26:15,079 --> 01:26:18,520
where Peter says, after this, I will return and rebuild

1363
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:21,520
the fallen tent or Tabernacle of David. I will rebuild

1364
01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:25,880
its ruins and restore it, which Peter interprets as the

1365
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:28,720
resurrection of Christ's body and the Church. So it's not

1366
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:34,159
a prophecy necessarily of the nation state of Israel. Two

1367
01:26:34,239 --> 01:26:41,319
thousand years later, I was saying Acts sixteen earlier, and

1368
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:44,800
it's Acts fifteen, verse sixteen. That's why I wanted to

1369
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:47,039
stress that in case somebody's listening and heard me say

1370
01:26:47,079 --> 01:26:51,239
that about the Tabernacle of David. Anyway, Also, remember that

1371
01:26:52,159 --> 01:26:55,520
throughout the New Testament the word, when we see word,

1372
01:26:56,239 --> 01:27:00,479
Protestants assume that it's referring to written texts, and Peter

1373
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:04,880
and Paul identify their preaching and oral teaching with quote

1374
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:09,560
the word. Also, the Word is a divine person and

1375
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:13,159
not a book in John one, so they're just equivocating

1376
01:27:13,319 --> 01:27:19,439
and collapsing word into written texts every time. And it's

1377
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:23,520
not written text every time. Sometimes it is a written text. Yes,

1378
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:25,680
you can call the Bible the Word of God, but

1379
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:28,279
also the second person, the Godhead, is the Word of God.

1380
01:27:28,359 --> 01:27:30,880
And Jesus says, you search the scriptures because you think

1381
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:32,439
that it is in them that you have internal life.

1382
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:34,880
When is they the bear witness of me? The very

1383
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:39,760
verse that Jesus rebukes the Pharisees with rebukes all Protestant

1384
01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:43,399
sol scripture of proponents as well. And also remember when

1385
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:47,159
Peter says that he preached the word of God, Paul

1386
01:27:47,239 --> 01:27:50,800
says he preached the word of God. That's oral teaching

1387
01:27:51,239 --> 01:27:53,439
in acts. I think it's twenty Paul says he taught

1388
01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:56,840
for three years, day and night in Ephesus to catechize

1389
01:27:56,920 --> 01:27:59,640
Timothy in the church at Ephesus. And how much do

1390
01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:01,800
we have have a Paul to Ephesis. We have three

1391
01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:04,840
letters to to Timothy and one to the Church of Ephesus.

1392
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:09,119
So did he just recite the scriptures for three years?

1393
01:28:09,159 --> 01:28:10,880
This is what Protestants think. It's so silly. It is

1394
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:13,079
if you go watch the debate that I did with

1395
01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:17,960
me and doctor Branson versus Dale, the Protestant. I'm not

1396
01:28:18,079 --> 01:28:20,560
trying to say it's like the best Sole scripture debate,

1397
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:23,880
but the reason it's so good is that doctor Branson

1398
01:28:24,159 --> 01:28:29,439
knows a lot about Jewish history, and he actually demonstrates

1399
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:33,000
that although Protestants think they're following quote Jews or the

1400
01:28:33,359 --> 01:28:37,960
traditional quote Hebrew idea, when they're solar scripturists. Jews and

1401
01:28:38,079 --> 01:28:41,680
Hebrews were not solar scriptura proponents. They believed in tradition

1402
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:47,079
as well, and they believed in a synodal rabbinical approach

1403
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:51,199
to interpreting and judging from the law, which is not Protestant.

1404
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:56,720
So Protestants are completely ahistorical, even when they try to

1405
01:28:56,800 --> 01:29:01,000
think that they're just following the Jewish model of solar scripture,

1406
01:29:01,079 --> 01:29:12,560
when Jews weren't soul scripture. David, he dropped off, Yo,

1407
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:24,680
what's up? Hey?

1408
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:27,960
Speaker 31: Yeah, I just had a quick question, can you.

1409
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:33,399
Speaker 32: So you know how Muslims they have the little dollar

1410
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:36,920
script and I noticed a lot of Muslims like to

1411
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:40,479
run to John twenty seventeen, Right, my God and your God.

1412
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:47,720
Does the Orthodox believe that Jesus had a God before

1413
01:29:47,760 --> 01:29:50,479
he incarnated or that's only when he became human?

1414
01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:54,840
Speaker 1: The Trinity existed from all eternity. Jesus is the second

1415
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:57,600
person of the Trinity, as John one says, and the

1416
01:29:57,760 --> 01:30:00,079
God that he's referring to is God the Father. And

1417
01:30:00,159 --> 01:30:04,399
that's why the Orthodox Church teaches monarchical trinitarianism, which identifies

1418
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:07,319
the God or the one God, with the person of

1419
01:30:07,399 --> 01:30:07,760
the Father.

1420
01:30:10,079 --> 01:30:12,640
Speaker 31: Okay, so it's not actually like his God.

1421
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,319
Speaker 32: It's referring to the person, just like God picks out

1422
01:30:15,399 --> 01:30:17,439
certain things, right, it's not just one thing.

1423
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:21,800
Speaker 1: Well now, literally, God the Father is God, Jesus is God,

1424
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:24,359
his divine Father.

1425
01:30:26,079 --> 01:30:28,880
Speaker 31: Okay, but before he incarnated that was not.

1426
01:30:29,159 --> 01:30:31,600
Speaker 1: No, it was always the case. He's the eternal son,

1427
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:34,840
as John One says, eternally begotten of the Father.

1428
01:30:36,680 --> 01:30:40,439
Speaker 32: Okay, so like in the Old Testament. Well, I guess

1429
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:42,479
it wouldn't have to say it in the Old Testament.

1430
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:44,199
That's just the Church's teaching, right.

1431
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:46,880
Speaker 1: No, it says it all throughout the Old Testament that

1432
01:30:47,279 --> 01:30:51,079
the Angel of the Lord that appears in dozens and

1433
01:30:51,159 --> 01:30:53,319
dozens of they often is the person of Christ.

1434
01:30:54,640 --> 01:30:56,600
Speaker 32: No, No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about.

1435
01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:00,640
I'm talking about God the Father being Jesus God.

1436
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:03,520
Speaker 1: Right, saying that the Old Testament demonstrates that with the

1437
01:31:03,600 --> 01:31:05,760
person of the Angel of the Lord, that is Jesus.

1438
01:31:06,039 --> 01:31:08,439
So Jesus did not begin to be a son at

1439
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:11,960
his incarnation. He was always the son of the Father

1440
01:31:12,159 --> 01:31:15,439
into all eternity. And that's why John one is saying

1441
01:31:15,560 --> 01:31:19,439
that he's the eternally begotten of the Father. The Father

1442
01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:21,000
is the source of Jesus.

1443
01:31:23,239 --> 01:31:27,960
Speaker 32: Well no, okay, so I think it's like so, I

1444
01:31:28,039 --> 01:31:30,680
think it's like a miscommunication. So I do affirm that

1445
01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:33,279
Jesus has always been the son of God. I'm not

1446
01:31:33,359 --> 01:31:36,720
William Lane Craig who believes he just became the No. Right,

1447
01:31:37,840 --> 01:31:43,119
what I'm saying is and maybe like I'm just not understanding.

1448
01:31:43,199 --> 01:31:47,079
But what I'm saying is God the Father was Jesus

1449
01:31:47,199 --> 01:31:51,000
God in the Old Testament as well before he incarnated.

1450
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:53,600
Speaker 1: Like Jesus is the Angel of the Lord that's appearing

1451
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:56,279
in all of the Theophanes throughout the Old Testament at

1452
01:31:56,319 --> 01:31:59,520
a five hour talk throughout all of these references.

1453
01:32:00,119 --> 01:32:03,800
Speaker 31: Okay, So okay, under understood, understood, So like go.

1454
01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:06,319
Speaker 1: Check out my talks on the Theophanes in the Torah

1455
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:07,479
and the Old Testament.

1456
01:32:08,239 --> 01:32:10,000
Speaker 31: Okay, thank you, thank you very much.

1457
01:32:10,159 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 1: That's a good question. Yeah, exactly. And I also did

1458
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:16,479
ah my response video to Trent Horn which is on YouTube.

1459
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:20,680
I will reshare that is a lecture also on this

1460
01:32:20,880 --> 01:32:39,960
topic on the Trinity and the Old Testament. Where is

1461
01:32:40,039 --> 01:32:57,600
that video? Okay, here it is. I'm going to reshare

1462
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:03,399
this on the top of my timeline. David do you

1463
01:33:03,399 --> 01:33:10,760
want to come back? Yeah, what's up? I actually had

1464
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:13,960
one more question, trying to stay muted so I could.

1465
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 30: Avoid you know, background noise and stuff, but yeah, I

1466
01:33:17,800 --> 01:33:19,439
wanted to actually ask, because.

1467
01:33:21,119 --> 01:33:22,439
Speaker 9: You know, I really appreciate your I.

1468
01:33:22,479 --> 01:33:23,479
Speaker 1: Think I can't remember.

1469
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:26,720
Speaker 30: You advised like a while back to start from the

1470
01:33:26,760 --> 01:33:30,119
bottom with like reading Affavacious and the cap of Docians

1471
01:33:30,159 --> 01:33:32,359
and all them. And I actually took that advice because

1472
01:33:32,399 --> 01:33:34,319
when I first started reading, I tried to jump into

1473
01:33:34,399 --> 01:33:38,520
like John Damascus and like Palamas, and that's kind of.

1474
01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:40,359
Speaker 1: Way too difficult. You need to read like the Post.

1475
01:33:40,439 --> 01:33:42,520
You need to read the post Apasaulic Fathers and then

1476
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:45,079
and then what you're talking about exactly.

1477
01:33:45,199 --> 01:33:47,600
Speaker 30: Yeah, So I started from the bottom, and man, that

1478
01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:51,960
was so helpful for me. But when I started reading

1479
01:33:52,039 --> 01:33:55,000
Basil all of his letters and his homilies and stuff,

1480
01:33:55,520 --> 01:33:59,640
and I guess I started to wonder and like question,

1481
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:02,359
like great, because I know that Roman Catholics affirmed the

1482
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:04,079
Council of Constantinople.

1483
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:06,920
Speaker 1: Do they just not care about like what Basil teaches

1484
01:34:07,039 --> 01:34:07,520
or Gregory?

1485
01:34:08,359 --> 01:34:14,079
Speaker 30: No, So, like I know that they hold Santa Augustine

1486
01:34:14,079 --> 01:34:15,880
in like pretty high regards, So why do they just

1487
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:21,159
choose Santa Augustine over like the Council of the Constantinople.

1488
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 1: Because of the popularity of Augustine in the West, and

1489
01:34:25,159 --> 01:34:29,880
then the rise and popularity of and Selmon Aquinas, and

1490
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:33,960
so the three A's dominate the West. And I would

1491
01:34:34,199 --> 01:34:37,640
venture that most Roman Catholics just never bothered to read

1492
01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:41,279
the Cappadocians, don't care, and if they do, it's just

1493
01:34:41,359 --> 01:34:44,439
a quote mind to try to find their position the irony.

1494
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:45,960
And by the way, they do the same thing with

1495
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:50,760
the ecumenical councils, where they don't care what the chief

1496
01:34:51,119 --> 01:34:54,199
theologians and fathers of the councils taught. They had this

1497
01:34:54,680 --> 01:34:59,239
ridiculous legalistic view that they only cite what the Pope affirms,

1498
01:34:59,239 --> 01:35:02,800
and the councils do documents, and they literally don't care

1499
01:35:02,840 --> 01:35:06,000
what any of the theologians or any of the writings were,

1500
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:09,159
so so you can cite them. Even Get this, here's

1501
01:35:09,159 --> 01:35:11,479
a funny thing. Constant the noble one actually says, there's

1502
01:35:11,479 --> 01:35:14,479
an imperial decree that says you have to follow Saint

1503
01:35:14,520 --> 01:35:18,319
Gregor of Nissa in his theology. Roman catholch said, we

1504
01:35:18,359 --> 01:35:21,760
don't care. All we care about is the actual definitions

1505
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:24,760
of the Council, not what any of the Church fathers teach.

1506
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:27,439
Now they'll say, well, we like the Church fathers, but

1507
01:35:28,239 --> 01:35:31,439
who cares about Father being sole cause we don't believe that.

1508
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:34,239
Speaker 30: Where I was actually I remember you saying that once.

1509
01:35:34,479 --> 01:35:37,039
Where can you actually find that in the in the

1510
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:39,880
the Council? Is it like in the I know it's

1511
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:41,880
not in the canons right where they say that, Is

1512
01:35:41,920 --> 01:35:42,840
it like one of the letters?

1513
01:35:43,000 --> 01:35:45,600
Speaker 1: No, So doctor Branson talks about it where he translated

1514
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:48,319
it from, probably from some of the Cappadocian writings that

1515
01:35:48,479 --> 01:35:50,520
probably refer to it, or there actually might it might

1516
01:35:50,600 --> 01:35:54,640
be in the Price for the Richard Price's recent translations

1517
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:58,800
of the Acts of the councils Oh, interesting, okay.

1518
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:01,159
Speaker 30: And then the other thing I didn't want to ask

1519
01:36:01,159 --> 01:36:04,880
because I remember you saying a while back. I think

1520
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:06,880
you were saying that, like you know, Thomas are just

1521
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:08,920
larking like they're still in the Middle Ages, that the

1522
01:36:09,039 --> 01:36:10,239
Vatican is basically.

1523
01:36:10,079 --> 01:36:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Rome doesn't care about Tomism at all. Yeah, what, okay?

1524
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:14,960
Speaker 30: So what I'm not I'm not Roman Catholic or anything,

1525
01:36:15,039 --> 01:36:17,920
but I guess what kind of what from the Vatican

1526
01:36:18,239 --> 01:36:19,680
has led you to that conclusion.

1527
01:36:22,199 --> 01:36:27,800
Speaker 1: Well, for example, you have the encyclical by Leo the

1528
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:41,279
thirteenth that, uh, Thomism is Hold on one second, Hold

1529
01:36:41,319 --> 01:36:43,399
on one second. I'm gonna i gotta write a check

1530
01:36:43,479 --> 01:37:32,159
for a bill, and I'll be right back. Okay, Okay,

1531
01:37:32,159 --> 01:37:39,439
I'm back. So Attorney Patras uh not posture attornis. People

1532
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:43,760
get these confused. Attorney Patras is the encyclical Leo the

1533
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:48,840
thirteenth very famous declaring that Tomism is the official philosophy

1534
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:52,319
of the Roman Catholic Church. But at the time of

1535
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:57,000
Vatican Two, you had what's called the New theology. You

1536
01:37:57,079 --> 01:37:58,720
had the rise of all these different trends in the

1537
01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:02,640
Roman Catholic Church. Had a reaction against that from people

1538
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:05,840
like Hans Ros von Baltazar, who wanted to bring Eastern

1539
01:38:05,960 --> 01:38:09,359
Orthodox theology into the Council, Eastern Fathers theology of the Council.

1540
01:38:09,800 --> 01:38:11,039
By the way, I'm not saying he's a good guy.

1541
01:38:11,039 --> 01:38:13,520
I'm just saying that that's what happened. You had a

1542
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:16,239
lot of Protestant influence on the Second Vatican Council. Many

1543
01:38:16,239 --> 01:38:20,199
of the many Kreiti theological advisors that were super liberal

1544
01:38:20,239 --> 01:38:24,520
and opposed Totomism, the Jesuits had a huge hand in

1545
01:38:24,680 --> 01:38:28,399
Vatican Two, and actually we're successful in getting several of

1546
01:38:28,479 --> 01:38:33,439
the controversial Vatican two documents through, and even some of

1547
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:37,359
the modern Tomas like Jacques Martain and these other figures

1548
01:38:37,399 --> 01:38:41,760
who are also very very liberal. You have Hans Kum,

1549
01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:44,359
you have Skillebacks, you have like all of these radical

1550
01:38:44,680 --> 01:38:48,319
Roman Catholic theologians for the most part rejecting and reacting

1551
01:38:48,399 --> 01:38:53,479
to classical scholastic Tomism. And that pretty much won the day.

1552
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:57,560
And that's why Vatican Two just really opens up the

1553
01:38:57,640 --> 01:39:02,000
floodgates for anything. And so if you go to most

1554
01:39:02,079 --> 01:39:04,479
of the Roman Catholic seminaries and places like that, like

1555
01:39:04,520 --> 01:39:07,239
you're gonna you will find some some sort of quote

1556
01:39:07,239 --> 01:39:10,840
classical Thomas, like Tim Gordon, you know, he's a big

1557
01:39:10,880 --> 01:39:13,399
pusher for classical Tomism. But they're in the minority now

1558
01:39:13,439 --> 01:39:15,279
in the Roman Kelly Church. So the point was not that,

1559
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:18,439
The point was just that the trend has really just

1560
01:39:19,079 --> 01:39:21,960
they don't care about classical Tomism anymore. It's it's very

1561
01:39:22,000 --> 01:39:25,439
much in the minority. Interesting, Okay, but yeah, I appreciate that.

1562
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:27,279
Speaker 30: I'll probably have to go re listen to this just

1563
01:39:27,359 --> 01:39:29,239
to kind of like, jot all that down because that's

1564
01:39:29,239 --> 01:39:31,039
a lot. That's a lot that you just mentioned there.

1565
01:39:31,399 --> 01:39:35,560
But yeah, I also the other book that I definitely

1566
01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:37,680
would recommend anybody out there to go read is that

1567
01:39:38,199 --> 01:39:42,560
that Pelican series. Honestly, that volume one after reading that

1568
01:39:43,000 --> 01:39:46,119
is completely convinced me of orthodoxy.

1569
01:39:46,199 --> 01:39:46,600
Speaker 11: Honestly.

1570
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:51,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean look again, like it's not I mean,

1571
01:39:51,079 --> 01:39:52,720
it sounds like a lot of names and it's difficult,

1572
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:54,960
but it's actually not. It's not and it's not even controversial,

1573
01:39:55,119 --> 01:39:59,680
like most most of the cellar stars of Vatican two

1574
01:40:00,039 --> 01:40:02,039
in the Roman Catholic Church, and the theologians about it

1575
01:40:02,079 --> 01:40:04,680
can too, like it's it's all people who are not

1576
01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:07,079
really interested in classical tones anymore. And then that's not

1577
01:40:07,199 --> 01:40:10,760
even controversial. That's why they're in the minority, people like

1578
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:17,760
uh Tim Gordon or whoever. Yeah, dude, look most of

1579
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:21,399
these seminaries they're just like gay bathhouses. Man, they don't

1580
01:40:21,399 --> 01:40:24,000
care about theology. I mean, I'm being serious, Like it's

1581
01:40:24,039 --> 01:40:25,640
not a it's not a place where you go to

1582
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:28,640
study some theologists where you go to have gay butt secks.

1583
01:40:29,239 --> 01:40:31,840
Speaker 30: And honestly, like the majority of Roman Catholics that I

1584
01:40:32,079 --> 01:40:34,439
even come across in like my normal everyday life.

1585
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:36,239
Speaker 5: They don't even know about Tomism.

1586
01:40:36,359 --> 01:40:37,880
Speaker 12: They're just like they just go to church.

1587
01:40:38,279 --> 01:40:40,800
Speaker 1: No, they don't care. So that that's why it's Larper's

1588
01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:44,319
online that pretend that they're living in the Middle Ages. Yeah, yeah,

1589
01:40:44,359 --> 01:40:44,560
but I.

1590
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:47,319
Speaker 30: Would Actually I had this pulled up because I thought

1591
01:40:47,319 --> 01:40:49,920
it was really interesting that we're talking about Rome in

1592
01:40:50,000 --> 01:40:54,199
that Pelicon book. He's where he's talking about Apostolic continuity.

1593
01:40:55,319 --> 01:40:58,560
He's making he's talking about i as Here he says

1594
01:40:58,640 --> 01:41:01,680
that irene Is described it as a characteristic of heresy

1595
01:41:02,199 --> 01:41:06,359
that each heretic selected part of the whole Apostolic witness, and,

1596
01:41:06,479 --> 01:41:08,520
after adapting it to his system.

1597
01:41:08,279 --> 01:41:10,960
Speaker 21: Elevated its authority above the other apostles.

1598
01:41:11,680 --> 01:41:14,920
Speaker 30: I was like, wow, that's a that's pretty interesting there,

1599
01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:17,880
and he was he was actually just talking about Marcia

1600
01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:19,479
on there, but I was like, wow, that's that could

1601
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:23,399
be applied to our modern age. But yeah, I don't

1602
01:41:23,439 --> 01:41:24,600
want to take too much of your time, and that

1603
01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:25,640
was that was good stuff there.

1604
01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:26,159
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

1605
01:41:26,239 --> 01:41:26,399
Speaker 25: Joy.

1606
01:41:27,479 --> 01:41:36,680
Speaker 1: So looking through you can just even search like per

1607
01:41:36,760 --> 01:41:41,760
E T pr P E r I T I A

1608
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:46,119
Vatican two cone gar is a Dominican, which means he's

1609
01:41:46,159 --> 01:41:50,159
a follower of Aquinas and Conegar was popular and famous.

1610
01:41:50,359 --> 01:41:50,800
Speaker 24: But like.

1611
01:41:52,279 --> 01:42:00,680
Speaker 1: Uh Dallas is a key Avery Dallas Jesuit. Uh Benedict

1612
01:42:01,199 --> 01:42:03,720
was a partis a Vatican too. He's not a huge

1613
01:42:03,760 --> 01:42:08,239
Thomas Carl Ronner Jesuit on reed the Lubach was a

1614
01:42:08,359 --> 01:42:15,560
Jesuit into Eastern Orthodox theology. Let's see. I mean it's

1615
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:20,520
just dominated by a lot of Jesuits. It's not that

1616
01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:23,960
it's not like a I mean, it's just well known.

1617
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:28,279
It's it's not they don't care about Tomism anymore. Yeah,

1618
01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:38,640
but good questions, Joseph, what's up?

1619
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:39,640
Speaker 5: Jay?

1620
01:42:39,720 --> 01:42:40,560
Speaker 1: So I have two questions.

1621
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:46,079
Speaker 33: Have you seen Jack Canhan versus Bill Nye on the Blood?

1622
01:42:49,439 --> 01:42:52,760
I'm not okay, Well he's a Protestant, I'm assuming so

1623
01:42:53,000 --> 01:42:56,079
I would want if you don't mind, rewatch it because

1624
01:42:56,159 --> 01:42:57,479
Bill Night kind of destroyed him.

1625
01:42:57,520 --> 01:42:58,399
Speaker 1: But he's a Protestant.

1626
01:42:58,479 --> 01:42:58,800
Speaker 11: Obviously.

1627
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:01,159
Speaker 33: I feel like the Orthodox and the apostles of the

1628
01:43:01,239 --> 01:43:03,880
churches would have, you know, be able to debunk to

1629
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:08,640
Bill nys. But second question is said end times. Yeah,

1630
01:43:08,680 --> 01:43:11,439
I personally think Islam messighes the anti Christ.

1631
01:43:11,479 --> 01:43:12,960
Speaker 11: Who do you think you think.

1632
01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:14,720
Speaker 31: That's far our bets.

1633
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:17,119
Speaker 9: Islam.

1634
01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:20,119
Speaker 31: Yeah, I feel like they're Jesus is the anti Christ.

1635
01:43:20,199 --> 01:43:20,720
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

1636
01:43:23,279 --> 01:43:23,399
Speaker 19: Uh?

1637
01:43:24,319 --> 01:43:29,920
Speaker 1: Well, I mean they believe in Jesus as a prophet,

1638
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:36,159
but you mean like his return that that would be Antichrist.

1639
01:43:36,279 --> 01:43:50,640
It could be Luke Hello, Hey, what's up?

1640
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:51,680
Speaker 19: So?

1641
01:43:51,800 --> 01:43:55,359
Speaker 34: I was wondering what are your thoughts on like the

1642
01:43:55,760 --> 01:43:59,199
IDF oppression as long as it's on topic. If it's

1643
01:43:59,279 --> 01:44:01,079
not on topic, I have another question about the idea

1644
01:44:01,279 --> 01:44:05,640
of what the IDF in Israel like oppression on Palestinian Christians.

1645
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:10,119
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that? I mean, I don't

1646
01:44:10,199 --> 01:44:14,520
agree with the wiping out of the Orthodox population in Palestine,

1647
01:44:15,279 --> 01:44:16,079
that's what you're referring to.

1648
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:19,520
Speaker 34: Yeah, yeah, Because I have a friend whose dad was

1649
01:44:19,800 --> 01:44:22,560
raised in the Soviet Union and then moved to Israel,

1650
01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:26,239
served in the IDF, and he's like a Zionist, and

1651
01:44:26,359 --> 01:44:29,279
I was like thinking, oh, well, Orthodoxy and Zionism isn't

1652
01:44:29,279 --> 01:44:30,039
really compatible.

1653
01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:45,960
Speaker 1: No, okay, thank you? Mm hm? Who else anybody else has?

1654
01:44:46,039 --> 01:44:55,399
Sony last questions? All right? Do you hear me? Yeah?

1655
01:44:57,479 --> 01:44:57,960
Speaker 31: Quick question?

1656
01:44:58,359 --> 01:45:04,640
Speaker 8: Chase still speak speak? Yeah, I mean article cool? So,

1657
01:45:05,079 --> 01:45:06,800
so I might have the dog of memory of a

1658
01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:09,720
little bit. But actually he just brought over so I

1659
01:45:09,840 --> 01:45:13,479
might need to. So I just saw this yesterday, and

1660
01:45:14,439 --> 01:45:18,359
this is the whole Protestant like owner of Twitter or whatever.

1661
01:45:18,399 --> 01:45:20,720
Another look that bothered me all that much. Like I

1662
01:45:20,800 --> 01:45:24,279
watch enough of you to understand, you know, like why

1663
01:45:24,439 --> 01:45:26,479
why is a even if I'm not worth a dogtop

1664
01:45:26,520 --> 01:45:29,119
and the fan? But like you argiment, I agree with him.

1665
01:45:29,840 --> 01:45:31,399
So there was this thing I saw yesterday.

1666
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:36,560
Speaker 1: I don't we're having a hard time hearing you, Hasani.

1667
01:45:36,600 --> 01:45:41,720
It's really breaking up and noisy. Hard to roll with it.

1668
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 8: What's up, hey, Jake, you hear me?

1669
01:45:44,600 --> 01:45:46,359
Speaker 11: Uh huh hey.

1670
01:45:46,840 --> 01:45:48,399
Speaker 35: I just want to post something to you to think

1671
01:45:48,399 --> 01:45:52,000
about in a question, right, ask evangelicals, I'm annax charismatic.

1672
01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:57,000
When he comes to the paralytic man and he tells

1673
01:45:57,119 --> 01:45:59,479
him be a good cheer. Your sins are forgiving you,

1674
01:46:00,119 --> 01:46:03,279
I'd asked the evangelical what does that mean? How can

1675
01:46:03,359 --> 01:46:06,199
he forgive sins before he went to the cross and

1676
01:46:06,319 --> 01:46:09,199
the debt's paid because in their low here at salvation,

1677
01:46:10,039 --> 01:46:13,279
you know, Jesus paid the price, he took the wrath.

1678
01:46:13,880 --> 01:46:15,880
Speaker 5: He did it in my place, and now I just

1679
01:46:15,960 --> 01:46:17,760
have to believe and I'm saved.

1680
01:46:18,520 --> 01:46:23,359
Speaker 35: But if he forgave him before the cross, what would

1681
01:46:23,439 --> 01:46:26,960
their answer be to what happened on the cross? And

1682
01:46:27,159 --> 01:46:29,960
you know, for us, Saint Anthonatia says, if it's a

1683
01:46:30,039 --> 01:46:33,640
matter of repentance, that's fine, but repentance won't save you

1684
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:36,520
from death. But they don't even have a concept of

1685
01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:38,640
being saved from death. It's just I'm good, I die

1686
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:39,279
go to heaven.

1687
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:41,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, so just maybe something to chew.

1688
01:46:41,840 --> 01:46:45,079
Speaker 35: On and maybe a more an easier way for them

1689
01:46:45,119 --> 01:46:47,159
to understand the critique of PSA.

1690
01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:55,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's a fair question. I mean, maybe like

1691
01:46:55,279 --> 01:47:00,520
a Calvinist would say something more sophisticated about how the

1692
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:03,439
whole Testament people were saved by the same action, it

1693
01:47:03,640 --> 01:47:06,560
just was retroactive, So they might say something like what

1694
01:47:06,680 --> 01:47:08,600
we say. I know that if you'd asked me that

1695
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:10,279
when I was a Calvinist, I would have said, well,

1696
01:47:10,359 --> 01:47:15,039
the work of Christ on the Cross can apply retroactively

1697
01:47:15,119 --> 01:47:18,279
to people in the Old Testament. So but I mean,

1698
01:47:18,359 --> 01:47:20,000
it is a fair question. I guess if you're a

1699
01:47:20,039 --> 01:47:25,079
sort of a low tier sort of charismatic or Protestant mindset,

1700
01:47:25,199 --> 01:47:26,680
like I think it would be a good question to

1701
01:47:26,760 --> 01:47:30,279
get them thinking, I am dat gatto. What's up?

1702
01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:34,079
Speaker 11: You mean?

1703
01:47:34,479 --> 01:47:34,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1704
01:47:35,840 --> 01:47:36,199
Speaker 11: Awesome?

1705
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:40,119
Speaker 9: So I grew up Catholic and you actually kind of

1706
01:47:40,199 --> 01:47:41,479
brought me to Orthodox.

1707
01:47:41,159 --> 01:47:44,920
Speaker 30: Because you talked about the news a lot, which kind

1708
01:47:44,960 --> 01:47:47,159
of intrigued me because I've never really heard anything else

1709
01:47:47,199 --> 01:47:47,520
about it.

1710
01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:50,079
Speaker 11: It kind of sounds like the piineal gland.

1711
01:47:50,680 --> 01:47:52,359
Speaker 9: Do you think you can like clear up a little

1712
01:47:52,399 --> 01:47:54,079
bit from your experience too?

1713
01:47:54,359 --> 01:47:55,600
Speaker 29: I heard the.

1714
01:47:57,680 --> 01:48:01,119
Speaker 9: View grist is like cleanses your new and just like

1715
01:48:01,239 --> 01:48:02,319
that experience.

1716
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:07,640
Speaker 1: Any association with that kind of stuff would be tenuous.

1717
01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:10,239
I mean, I think that the reason we talk about

1718
01:48:10,279 --> 01:48:12,960
the News is that it's more of a Hebrew concept

1719
01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:16,000
from the Old Testament. When you read David talking about

1720
01:48:16,039 --> 01:48:18,800
the heart, and then we would say in the New

1721
01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:21,199
Testament and then the teaching of the fathers is a

1722
01:48:21,279 --> 01:48:27,600
distinction between that and the intellect or diological reasoning, diocrenesis

1723
01:48:27,680 --> 01:48:32,520
and these different Greek terms for logical reasoning, rational soul.

1724
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:36,239
So the heart is just simply the inner spirit of man.

1725
01:48:36,319 --> 01:48:41,199
Paul talks about trichotomy body, soul, spirit, and that's what

1726
01:48:41,359 --> 01:48:44,640
we mean by the noose. And so for the Orthodox position,

1727
01:48:44,760 --> 01:48:47,800
if you read somebody like HEROTHEUS Blackos like, he talks

1728
01:48:47,800 --> 01:48:50,680
about the news pretty extensively, and the idea is just

1729
01:48:50,680 --> 01:48:54,199
simply that the reasoning of man is out of whack

1730
01:48:54,319 --> 01:48:57,000
too as a result of the fall. So a lot

1731
01:48:57,039 --> 01:48:59,600
of times you'll get Tomas and people like Roman Catholics

1732
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:02,359
or west During Augustinian type people who think that the

1733
01:49:02,479 --> 01:49:05,000
soul is just really basically the intellect, so man is

1734
01:49:05,079 --> 01:49:07,840
a dichotomy, and they don't have this notion that the

1735
01:49:07,960 --> 01:49:11,600
intellect needs to be healed by submitting to the heart

1736
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:14,119
or to the nowse. So these are some of the

1737
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:20,239
ideas behind that theological tradition, and I don't exactly know

1738
01:49:20,399 --> 01:49:23,000
why it's not in the West except just for the

1739
01:49:25,079 --> 01:49:29,720
the rise and the dominance of the Augustinian duality concept

1740
01:49:29,840 --> 01:49:35,960
of man being a body soul composite and soul being

1741
01:49:36,359 --> 01:49:40,399
identical to intellect, and that's pretty much a Quintus's position too,

1742
01:49:40,479 --> 01:49:44,319
So it just kind of became dominant in the West

1743
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:45,840
through those figures.

1744
01:49:47,680 --> 01:50:00,239
Speaker 36: Nihilist again, gone, sorry, there's a delay, and I takes

1745
01:50:00,279 --> 01:50:01,159
a couple of seconds done.

1746
01:50:01,239 --> 01:50:01,520
Speaker 31: Mute.

1747
01:50:03,399 --> 01:50:07,199
Speaker 10: Hey, So the second question that I wanted to ask,

1748
01:50:08,159 --> 01:50:10,640
and then if I don't wear out your patience, I

1749
01:50:10,760 --> 01:50:14,600
wanted to audition for some dire cores, got some, got

1750
01:50:14,640 --> 01:50:16,680
some good dire cores for you. I don't know what's

1751
01:50:16,680 --> 01:50:21,399
your tolerance level for Shenanigans is right now, but uh.

1752
01:50:22,239 --> 01:50:26,680
The the second question that I had was so I

1753
01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:32,359
was having a debate with Boomer, and he was arguing

1754
01:50:32,800 --> 01:50:39,680
that because in Revelation, where it defines the heavenly Jerusalem

1755
01:50:40,760 --> 01:50:44,119
as you know, a linear bounded space, as it has

1756
01:50:44,680 --> 01:50:49,239
dimensions and a physical description, they were arguing, oh, well,

1757
01:50:49,399 --> 01:50:54,439
there are descriptions of the Tabernacle, and there are descriptions

1758
01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:58,439
of the uh, you know, the Temple of Solomon. As

1759
01:50:58,720 --> 01:51:04,279
linear bounded space is physical objects. Therefore that means that

1760
01:51:04,439 --> 01:51:07,560
there has to be a physical.

1761
01:51:07,439 --> 01:51:10,319
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, but look at what just what did we

1762
01:51:10,520 --> 01:51:14,239
just talk about in terms of Acts fifteen sixteen, when

1763
01:51:14,319 --> 01:51:17,800
Paul ecks on Peter excuse me, Peter explains the fallen

1764
01:51:17,880 --> 01:51:21,880
Tabernacle has been restored, and he identifies it as what

1765
01:51:28,279 --> 01:51:33,439
please continue, Acts fifteen sixteen. He identifies the fallen Tabernacle

1766
01:51:33,520 --> 01:51:35,319
as what that's been restored.

1767
01:51:38,439 --> 01:51:41,000
Speaker 10: I assume we would say that the Church by Christ,

1768
01:51:41,199 --> 01:51:41,439
just the.

1769
01:51:41,439 --> 01:51:44,479
Speaker 1: Body of Christ and the Church Jesus is the physical

1770
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:47,239
body was a tabernacle. Remember he says, destroy this temple

1771
01:51:47,239 --> 01:51:50,840
and I will raise it in three days. Okay.

1772
01:51:50,920 --> 01:51:53,960
Speaker 10: So the argument, the counter to that argument would be

1773
01:51:54,640 --> 01:51:58,039
Christ is the heavenly Jerusalem and his.

1774
01:51:58,199 --> 01:52:00,119
Speaker 1: Body, the Church is the head of in jury is

1775
01:52:00,319 --> 01:52:04,199
according to Galatians. For Paul saysn't Galatians four, we are

1776
01:52:04,319 --> 01:52:09,079
all children of our Mother above the heavenly Jerusalem. It's

1777
01:52:09,119 --> 01:52:12,840
a present reality. It's not a literal city that's a

1778
01:52:12,920 --> 01:52:15,199
giant square that's going to fly down out of heaven

1779
01:52:15,239 --> 01:52:20,159
into Israel. That's what Boomer's thinking, like, they actually think

1780
01:52:20,159 --> 01:52:23,199
a giant city is going to like float down and

1781
01:52:23,439 --> 01:52:25,159
land in Palestine.

1782
01:52:26,079 --> 01:52:29,199
Speaker 10: Well, I agree with you just said. We're clear guy,

1783
01:52:29,359 --> 01:52:31,600
this is heresy. And I'm trying to refut this.

1784
01:52:33,399 --> 01:52:35,279
Speaker 1: I know I'm not making fun of you. I'm making

1785
01:52:35,319 --> 01:52:37,279
fun of the Boomer right.

1786
01:52:37,439 --> 01:52:40,680
Speaker 10: Well, and and your response was my response, which is

1787
01:52:41,439 --> 01:52:45,479
the Church is the true Israel, Christ is the heavenly Jerusalem,

1788
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:46,199
et cetera.

1789
01:52:47,399 --> 01:52:51,279
Speaker 1: Specifically, Peter specifically says the tabernacle is the Church and

1790
01:52:51,359 --> 01:52:57,039
Act fifteen sixteen. You see, Oh, I see, so that's that.

1791
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:00,960
Speaker 10: So it doesn't have to be because it's given a

1792
01:53:02,279 --> 01:53:07,560
description as a linear, bounded space. There's a spiritual reality,

1793
01:53:07,760 --> 01:53:10,760
but doesn't that entail some sort of physical reality at all?

1794
01:53:11,760 --> 01:53:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, But the physical reality is the lineaments that are perfect.

1795
01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:20,279
So the perfection of the lineaments and the measurements signifies

1796
01:53:20,319 --> 01:53:23,279
the perfection of the Church and the Holy Spirit in

1797
01:53:23,359 --> 01:53:26,560
dwelling within her and her virtues and qualities. It's not

1798
01:53:27,079 --> 01:53:31,119
about an actual building with you know, I mean the

1799
01:53:31,199 --> 01:53:33,199
New Testament says well, who does Peter say, are the

1800
01:53:33,239 --> 01:53:37,720
foundation stones of the temple the apostles? What does the

1801
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:40,000
Book of Revelations say, are the foundation stone or the

1802
01:53:40,000 --> 01:53:43,560
new Jerusalem the apostles. It's the same thing. The names

1803
01:53:43,600 --> 01:53:45,760
of the apostles in the Book of Revelation are on

1804
01:53:45,920 --> 01:53:48,960
the foundation stones of the heavenly Jerusalem, because the heavenly

1805
01:53:49,039 --> 01:53:51,399
Jerusalem is the Church, the city that they built, which

1806
01:53:51,479 --> 01:53:54,960
is a living temple. Paul says, not an actual building

1807
01:53:55,000 --> 01:53:57,159
and not something that flies out of heaven in the

1808
01:53:57,199 --> 01:53:58,439
Boomer imagination.

1809
01:54:01,319 --> 01:54:01,479
Speaker 11: Uh.

1810
01:54:02,600 --> 01:54:19,359
Speaker 37: Exposing Ye, I'm mute, exposing dispensation.

1811
01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:19,840
Speaker 6: Me want.

1812
01:54:19,880 --> 01:54:21,399
Speaker 9: I'm sorry.

1813
01:54:21,520 --> 01:54:27,600
Speaker 28: I was having problems. So I was raised in these evangelical, Baptist,

1814
01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:32,920
dispensational churches. Me too, and I'm trying to unlearn all

1815
01:54:33,000 --> 01:54:36,399
of this crap that I was indoctrinated with as a child,

1816
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:41,840
and I don't know should I'm trying to learn, like

1817
01:54:41,880 --> 01:54:45,359
the differences between the Catholic and the Orthodox churches, So

1818
01:54:46,000 --> 01:54:48,800
do both of them confirm covenant theology?

1819
01:54:50,479 --> 01:54:53,760
Speaker 1: Well, uh, this gives a little complex because prior to

1820
01:54:53,960 --> 01:54:57,960
Vatican too, the Orthodox and the Catholic position on these

1821
01:54:58,079 --> 01:55:03,239
issues was the same. We believe in the typological fulfillment

1822
01:55:03,439 --> 01:55:06,159
of the nation state of Israel in the Church. Israel

1823
01:55:06,239 --> 01:55:07,800
is a type of the Church, the land is a

1824
01:55:07,880 --> 01:55:09,680
type of the Church, and a type of the world

1825
01:55:09,840 --> 01:55:12,000
in the Church conquering the world through the Gospel. So

1826
01:55:12,079 --> 01:55:16,760
that typological continuity and that covenant fulfillment position is no

1827
01:55:16,880 --> 01:55:21,159
different to classically speaking, between Orthodox and Roman Catholics. However,

1828
01:55:21,840 --> 01:55:26,079
post Vatican two, via documents like nostro atat lumin Gentm

1829
01:55:26,159 --> 01:55:31,039
sixteen ecumenical documents that the Vatican put out some years

1830
01:55:31,119 --> 01:55:33,479
back about the relationship of the Roman Catholic Church to

1831
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:38,720
the Jews Rat Singer's book, Many Religions, One Covenant, these

1832
01:55:39,239 --> 01:55:43,399
documents have all affirmed, in including the New Roman Catholic Catechism,

1833
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:48,399
that there is an ongoing, continued relevance to the quote

1834
01:55:48,439 --> 01:55:51,680
Old Covenant for Jews today. So the Roman Catholic Church

1835
01:55:51,800 --> 01:55:54,920
is backtracked and become ambiguous on this question. And that's

1836
01:55:55,319 --> 01:56:01,399
precisely why Benedict, John, Paul the Second and even in

1837
01:56:01,479 --> 01:56:04,800
Francis have all said statements like we shouldn't proselytize Jews.

1838
01:56:05,399 --> 01:56:09,039
So I would argue that those are contradictions from the

1839
01:56:09,119 --> 01:56:13,119
Roman Catholic Church, because, for example, if you read the

1840
01:56:13,199 --> 01:56:17,119
Council of Florence, within Cantate Domino and the other documents

1841
01:56:17,119 --> 01:56:21,039
of Florence, there's explicit statements that's a Roman Catholic documentical council.

1842
01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:23,840
There are explicit statements that there is no sense in

1843
01:56:23,920 --> 01:56:26,720
which any of the Old Testament rights or Covenant is

1844
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:29,840
to continue on or be considered valid in any way.

1845
01:56:30,840 --> 01:56:35,079
And so the statements that I mentioned from Tate Lamagentium

1846
01:56:36,399 --> 01:56:41,760
and especially the Vatican relation to the relation of the

1847
01:56:41,840 --> 01:56:44,399
Church of the Jews document from like I don't know,

1848
01:56:44,880 --> 01:56:46,439
a few years ago, I forget the exact name of

1849
01:56:46,520 --> 01:56:51,439
that document. Those documents are hugely controversial, and I would

1850
01:56:51,560 --> 01:56:53,439
argue that those are contradictory to Florence.

1851
01:56:55,000 --> 01:56:55,760
Speaker 31: Okay, I'll have to.

1852
01:56:56,039 --> 01:56:59,119
Speaker 28: Do research into what you've said. I'll probably have to listen.

1853
01:56:58,920 --> 01:56:59,720
Speaker 21: Over the recording.

1854
01:57:01,359 --> 01:57:07,359
Speaker 28: So, like, what about how does everybody feel about the

1855
01:57:07,399 --> 01:57:10,159
mark of the Beast, Like did they believe it already happened?

1856
01:57:10,359 --> 01:57:15,960
Speaker 1: Or so I believe in partial preterism that the references

1857
01:57:16,000 --> 01:57:17,840
in the Book of John achieve me in the Book

1858
01:57:17,880 --> 01:57:21,520
of Revelation to Nero or about achieving about the Antichrist

1859
01:57:21,560 --> 01:57:24,159
or about Nero. So you could read a good book

1860
01:57:24,279 --> 01:57:29,439
like Before Jerusalem Fell or Peter Holford's book Destruction of Jerusalem.

1861
01:57:29,479 --> 01:57:36,279
Those are easy readable texts. But that's the normative interpretation

1862
01:57:36,399 --> 01:57:38,600
of a lot of the Orthodox Church fathers about Matthew

1863
01:57:38,600 --> 01:57:41,119
twenty four and Luke twenty one. But we do think

1864
01:57:41,199 --> 01:57:44,159
that there is going to be some final Antichrist and

1865
01:57:44,279 --> 01:57:46,600
some final attempt at you know, some kind of mark

1866
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:48,600
and controlling everyone and all that.

1867
01:57:48,840 --> 01:57:51,760
Speaker 21: Yes, okay, So I have a theory.

1868
01:57:53,239 --> 01:57:56,039
Speaker 28: For those who believe like another mark of the Beast's

1869
01:57:56,039 --> 01:58:00,479
system could happen. Do you believe I I don't know

1870
01:58:00,479 --> 01:58:02,079
if I'm the first one to have ever thought of this,

1871
01:58:02,199 --> 01:58:05,479
I'm probably not. But how would you feel about the

1872
01:58:05,560 --> 01:58:09,600
theory that Zionism is the mark of the Beast, because

1873
01:58:09,640 --> 01:58:11,640
you don't have to be a Christian to be a

1874
01:58:11,760 --> 01:58:15,079
Zionist and to push for Jews to have their own

1875
01:58:15,079 --> 01:58:16,239
religious ethno state.

1876
01:58:16,520 --> 01:58:17,640
Speaker 5: How would you feel about that?

1877
01:58:19,960 --> 01:58:23,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, necessarily the Zionism itself, which is a secular,

1878
01:58:24,239 --> 01:58:30,039
you know, political movement amongst you know, pacifist, progressivists, Jews

1879
01:58:30,119 --> 01:58:33,039
from a century plus ago, that that wouldn't necessarily be

1880
01:58:33,319 --> 01:58:35,720
the mark. I mean, the mark is identified as something

1881
01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:39,680
specific on the body in some spiritual sense or perhaps

1882
01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:42,600
some physical sense. So I mean, I don't know that

1883
01:58:42,880 --> 01:58:45,159
it is that, but it might be related in some

1884
01:58:45,279 --> 01:58:49,119
way to a future third Temple or nation state of Israel.

1885
01:58:49,119 --> 01:58:52,880
Those are all possibilities. But if you look at a

1886
01:58:52,960 --> 01:58:55,159
book that's in the Orthodox canon that's not in the

1887
01:58:55,239 --> 01:59:00,239
Catholic canon, Third Macabees, there's an older version of this,

1888
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:02,600
which I think in the Book of Revelation. When John

1889
01:59:02,640 --> 01:59:04,520
talks about the Mark, he's not really he's not like

1890
01:59:04,720 --> 01:59:07,640
just kind of picking that out as something that hasn't

1891
01:59:07,760 --> 01:59:11,760
had any historical precedents. If you read Third Maccabees, which

1892
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:15,720
is again it's in the Orthodox Bible. Third Macabees has

1893
01:59:15,880 --> 01:59:19,359
told of me doing this very thing. And I think

1894
01:59:19,399 --> 01:59:22,960
we can get some insight into what this is through

1895
01:59:23,439 --> 01:59:26,880
reading Third Maccabees, because when he as a dictator tries

1896
01:59:26,920 --> 01:59:29,319
to institute a mark for everybody to buy and sell,

1897
01:59:30,119 --> 01:59:33,279
it is called the mark of the Mysteries of Dionysius.

1898
01:59:34,279 --> 01:59:36,439
Now I'm not saying that necessarily that means that the

1899
01:59:36,520 --> 01:59:39,600
end of the world's mark will be quote the Mysteries

1900
01:59:39,640 --> 01:59:41,840
of Dionysius. But it seems to be some kind of

1901
01:59:42,439 --> 01:59:46,159
blended sort of you know, haagan mystery religion thing.

1902
01:59:47,159 --> 01:59:49,239
Speaker 28: Well, this is the last thing I'll say, and I'll

1903
01:59:49,279 --> 01:59:51,520
let the next person come up. But I started to

1904
01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:54,520
have this idea because if the Bible describes the Jews

1905
01:59:54,600 --> 01:59:59,439
as Synegod's at Satan, and you're pledging your allegiance Tosigonism

1906
01:59:59,560 --> 02:00:02,640
to these people, then I feel like that could be

1907
02:00:03,159 --> 02:00:04,079
kind of plausible.

1908
02:00:04,239 --> 02:00:09,640
Speaker 1: So well, I mean, I'm not positive that we are

1909
02:00:09,720 --> 02:00:11,960
in the last days. In the last last days, I mean,

1910
02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:14,159
in one sense, the end times. The last days begin

1911
02:00:14,399 --> 02:00:18,399
at the First Advent. Jesus says that you know, he

1912
02:00:18,479 --> 02:00:22,199
would bring the age to come in the church. The

1913
02:00:22,279 --> 02:00:25,159
Church is the age to come. Joel says that when

1914
02:00:25,199 --> 02:00:26,880
the Holy Spirit's poured out on all flesh. It is

1915
02:00:26,960 --> 02:00:29,520
the last days, and if you read Acts two, that's

1916
02:00:30,159 --> 02:00:33,800
fulfilled at Pentecost. So I don't think the quote last

1917
02:00:33,880 --> 02:00:35,840
days is necessarily the end of the world, like a

1918
02:00:35,880 --> 02:00:38,840
lot of Protestants and Evangelicals do. We would say the

1919
02:00:38,920 --> 02:00:42,760
last days began. The eschatological reality of the eternal state

1920
02:00:43,119 --> 02:00:46,600
was brought at the First Advent. And so when John

1921
02:00:46,680 --> 02:00:48,720
sees into heaven, for example, in the in the Book

1922
02:00:48,720 --> 02:00:51,600
of Revelation, when he sees, you know, chapters five through nine,

1923
02:00:51,680 --> 02:00:55,520
the worship of in heaven, the marriage suffer of the Lamb,

1924
02:00:55,560 --> 02:00:58,239
that's going on in heaven. That's for us, the same

1925
02:00:58,359 --> 02:01:00,439
thing as what you see in an Orthodox Church of

1926
02:01:00,520 --> 02:01:03,439
the Divine liturgy. So the Divine Liturgy is literally the

1927
02:01:03,640 --> 02:01:07,520
eschatological marriage feasts of the Lamb here and now. So

1928
02:01:08,439 --> 02:01:11,039
all that to say that there's a lot of things

1929
02:01:11,119 --> 02:01:13,479
that I think have to occur that still haven't occurred.

1930
02:01:14,560 --> 02:01:18,199
I lean more towards an optimistic eschatology that the majority

1931
02:01:18,199 --> 02:01:21,600
of the world will be converted to authentic Christianity before

1932
02:01:21,640 --> 02:01:24,600
the return of Christ. How and when that will come about,

1933
02:01:24,600 --> 02:01:27,520
I don't know. But also Rumins eleven and most of

1934
02:01:27,560 --> 02:01:30,520
the church fathers who talk about it do discuss and

1935
02:01:30,600 --> 02:01:32,680
believe in a future conversion of the Jews.

1936
02:01:34,079 --> 02:01:36,000
Speaker 21: Okay, well, thank you, that's all I had.

1937
02:01:36,439 --> 02:01:38,159
Speaker 4: Well, And one thing to bring up to is that

1938
02:01:38,239 --> 02:01:43,960
it's pretty we're not encouraged to try to speculate too

1939
02:01:44,039 --> 02:01:45,399
heavily about the.

1940
02:01:46,720 --> 02:01:49,439
Speaker 5: Aston and the end times. Good point, and we are

1941
02:01:50,000 --> 02:01:51,960
and I'm not saying I do this, I don't.

1942
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:55,479
Speaker 4: But we're encouraged to view it which is the truth

1943
02:01:55,560 --> 02:01:57,560
as it's that Christ is going to come and return

1944
02:01:57,640 --> 02:02:01,239
as a thief in the night and repent now, because

1945
02:02:01,279 --> 02:02:02,880
you could come back at any point and not.

1946
02:02:03,640 --> 02:02:06,199
Speaker 5: Obsessed to figure all this stuff out.

1947
02:02:06,680 --> 02:02:09,680
Speaker 4: And we're I would never say, oh, don't be weary

1948
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:12,399
of things that you think could be pre sprecursors to

1949
02:02:12,520 --> 02:02:13,359
the Mark or.

1950
02:02:13,399 --> 02:02:16,000
Speaker 5: Satanic movements and stuff. I'm not saying that, but like.

1951
02:02:16,600 --> 02:02:19,359
Speaker 4: You know, definitely we're supposed to take it in a

1952
02:02:19,479 --> 02:02:22,960
very sobering way of we don't know, so try we're

1953
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:24,239
supposed to repent now.

1954
02:02:25,199 --> 02:02:27,560
Speaker 5: I think that's also part of that part.

1955
02:02:27,439 --> 02:02:30,760
Speaker 1: Of the beauty of it. That's a really good point. Yeah,

1956
02:02:30,760 --> 02:02:32,800
a lot of evangelicalism is involved, and it's like a

1957
02:02:32,880 --> 02:02:37,399
really sensationalist kind of news headline is to Jesus. I'm

1958
02:02:37,439 --> 02:02:41,039
not saying you're doing that, but like people read headlines

1959
02:02:41,079 --> 02:02:43,079
and then they go, oh, then and they read that

1960
02:02:43,199 --> 02:02:46,359
into the Book of Revelation. And I mean it's understandable

1961
02:02:46,359 --> 02:02:48,159
because when I first started reading the Bible did the

1962
02:02:48,199 --> 02:02:51,119
exact same thing. When I was like nineteen and I

1963
02:02:51,199 --> 02:02:53,640
bought a bunch of prophecy books from the Christian book store,

1964
02:02:53,920 --> 02:02:57,159
I started like trying to figure out like, oh, the

1965
02:02:57,359 --> 02:02:59,359
you know, the locust out of the pit. That's like

1966
02:02:59,479 --> 02:03:01,119
helicopter of the New World Order.

1967
02:03:02,199 --> 02:03:04,159
Speaker 4: You rip out pages, you put them up on a

1968
02:03:04,279 --> 02:03:06,520
pin boar a peg board, and you just got strings

1969
02:03:06,560 --> 02:03:07,479
attached between them.

1970
02:03:07,600 --> 02:03:10,520
Speaker 5: You're triangulating the prophecies.

1971
02:03:10,720 --> 02:03:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1972
02:03:10,920 --> 02:03:13,479
Speaker 5: I actually I have friends here.

1973
02:03:13,560 --> 02:03:15,119
Speaker 1: That I used to I used to sketch out when

1974
02:03:15,159 --> 02:03:17,399
I had the prophecy studied Bible on my sco footbable.

1975
02:03:17,399 --> 02:03:19,600
I used to sketch out like the dispensations for people.

1976
02:03:20,920 --> 02:03:21,119
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1977
02:03:21,279 --> 02:03:24,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's it's interesting because I've seen, like I

1978
02:03:24,720 --> 02:03:28,479
have a personal friend. He's a smart guy, super talented musician,

1979
02:03:29,079 --> 02:03:32,079
really good heart too, and he for the last year

1980
02:03:32,119 --> 02:03:34,720
and a half, almost two years, he wasn't like he

1981
02:03:34,760 --> 02:03:36,520
wouldn't recording when it puts things out.

1982
02:03:36,560 --> 02:03:39,439
Speaker 5: And again, he's world class, He's played with world class players,

1983
02:03:39,439 --> 02:03:40,119
and I kept.

1984
02:03:39,920 --> 02:03:42,399
Speaker 4: Asking him, like why he goes honestly, I just feel

1985
02:03:42,439 --> 02:03:45,239
like the end times are coming in. After drilling it

1986
02:03:45,319 --> 02:03:48,479
into him, I think, you know, he finally realized, wait

1987
02:03:48,479 --> 02:03:50,000
a minute, maybe this is a deception.

1988
02:03:50,159 --> 02:03:50,319
Speaker 21: To me.

1989
02:03:50,840 --> 02:03:53,039
Speaker 4: Being obsessed with the end times is a demonic thing

1990
02:03:53,119 --> 02:03:55,000
to see see from actually doing something.

1991
02:03:55,680 --> 02:03:58,119
Speaker 1: Exactly what did Jesus say? The Kingdom of God is

1992
02:03:58,199 --> 02:04:01,560
within you, meaning the life of the Holy Spirit within

1993
02:04:01,640 --> 02:04:05,399
your heart, within your news. And that does not mean

1994
02:04:05,439 --> 02:04:11,159
that it doesn't have an eventual, bodily external, cosmic manifestation

1995
02:04:11,600 --> 02:04:14,720
in the resurrection. But the Kingdom of God is not

1996
02:04:15,000 --> 02:04:18,000
a thing that comes down and lands like a giant

1997
02:04:18,840 --> 02:04:23,039
space pyramid of on Anaki out of Egypt right in Israel.

1998
02:04:23,720 --> 02:04:26,960
It's the presence of the Holy Spirit within you. That's

1999
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:29,880
what Paul Ingalatian says is the Kingdom of God is

2000
02:04:30,039 --> 02:04:32,279
the present's Holy Spirit, and the virtue is of the

2001
02:04:32,279 --> 02:04:34,600
Holy Spirit within you. And that's had within the church,

2002
02:04:34,680 --> 02:04:40,079
within the liturgy. That's it. There is no geopolitical establishing

2003
02:04:40,199 --> 02:04:45,359
of some you know, earthly nation state, warrior kingdom or something.

2004
02:04:46,319 --> 02:04:46,439
Speaker 11: You know.

2005
02:04:46,520 --> 02:04:49,680
Speaker 4: What's interesting last thing on this is thinking about it

2006
02:04:49,760 --> 02:04:52,920
now as we're talking about it, the people that are

2007
02:04:53,039 --> 02:04:56,479
obsessed with trying to figure out you know, in times,

2008
02:04:56,560 --> 02:04:59,479
prophecies and stuff like that to an unhealthy degree. It's

2009
02:04:59,520 --> 02:05:03,760
super ustick, actually is it's inherently gnostic.

2010
02:05:05,039 --> 02:05:06,800
Speaker 1: And by the way, this is a delusion that anyone

2011
02:05:06,840 --> 02:05:10,000
can fall into, even Orthodox Monastics, they oftentimes have a

2012
02:05:10,079 --> 02:05:13,720
temptation to fall into this obsessing over trying to predict

2013
02:05:13,720 --> 02:05:16,479
the end times and who the Antichrist was and since

2014
02:05:16,520 --> 02:05:18,800
the Tsar fell or in the last days, and we

2015
02:05:18,840 --> 02:05:20,439
I mean we already had people on here tonight talking

2016
02:05:20,479 --> 02:05:25,359
about that. Ian.

2017
02:05:25,479 --> 02:05:28,399
Speaker 38: What's up, Hey, Jay, I just had a question for

2018
02:05:28,479 --> 02:05:35,600
you about your partial criticism. So you're obviously very influenced

2019
02:05:35,640 --> 02:05:39,319
by James Jordan. I'd assume Peter Lightheart people like that.

2020
02:05:40,279 --> 02:05:45,640
Do you view the church today as being the Church victorious?

2021
02:05:45,800 --> 02:05:49,720
Using like James Jordan's symbolism of the forty years from

2022
02:05:49,800 --> 02:05:55,399
Christ's crucifixion to the destruction of the Temple being the

2023
02:05:55,720 --> 02:05:58,680
wilderness period of the Church, and then after the destruction

2024
02:05:58,720 --> 02:06:00,640
of the Temple the church now enters into the church

2025
02:06:00,720 --> 02:06:02,520
militant period.

2026
02:06:04,000 --> 02:06:06,079
Speaker 1: After the destruction of the church or the temple or

2027
02:06:06,159 --> 02:06:10,560
the temple my bed. I'm not heavily committed to any

2028
02:06:10,560 --> 02:06:12,880
of those models. I don't think we have a set

2029
02:06:13,279 --> 02:06:16,119
clear idea on all that specifics. I mean, I think

2030
02:06:16,199 --> 02:06:18,760
Jordan's one of the first to really try to lay

2031
02:06:18,840 --> 02:06:23,239
out some possibilities there. Lightheart too. Are you a full preterist.

2032
02:06:24,359 --> 02:06:26,159
Speaker 38: No, I'm more than I was Cate of Cumin. I

2033
02:06:26,279 --> 02:06:28,439
was just heavily influenced by Jordan and Lightheard.

2034
02:06:28,600 --> 02:06:30,279
Speaker 1: Oh I got I'm sorry. I thought you were with

2035
02:06:30,520 --> 02:06:32,600
the guy who was in here earlier. Yes, we had

2036
02:06:32,640 --> 02:06:34,680
a full preterist guy in here trying to trap me earlier.

2037
02:06:34,800 --> 02:06:37,920
Speaker 11: So no, I was just curious because I yeah, I

2038
02:06:38,000 --> 02:06:38,279
don't know.

2039
02:06:38,920 --> 02:06:43,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I I just got Jordan's trilogy from my godfather,

2040
02:06:43,640 --> 02:06:46,119
so I haven't actually read it yet. I did read

2041
02:06:46,199 --> 02:06:48,079
Jordan's old stuff on it back in the day when

2042
02:06:48,119 --> 02:06:50,640
he put out some little books on it. I read

2043
02:06:50,720 --> 02:06:53,520
Lightheart back in the day, But I don't have any

2044
02:06:53,720 --> 02:06:58,560
set answers on exactly what is that stuff lining up to.

2045
02:06:59,640 --> 02:07:01,119
Speaker 9: Yep, cool, I was just curious.

2046
02:07:02,880 --> 02:07:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with like in the Jordanville book when

2047
02:07:07,640 --> 02:07:10,720
it's the Apostle. In any christ book, it makes the

2048
02:07:10,800 --> 02:07:16,359
point that whenever the actual end times draw nearer, the

2049
02:07:16,479 --> 02:07:19,319
church will have the mindset and the discernment to figure

2050
02:07:19,319 --> 02:07:21,760
out a lot of this stuff. So I think there's

2051
02:07:21,800 --> 02:07:23,760
some sense in which a lot of that will be

2052
02:07:23,880 --> 02:07:27,840
opened and revealed to the church as the church approaches

2053
02:07:27,920 --> 02:07:31,000
that time, because the church has the mind of Christ. So,

2054
02:07:31,720 --> 02:07:35,840
but I don't a lot of those answers. I don't have, Chris,

2055
02:07:35,960 --> 02:07:41,720
what's up, hey, guys.

2056
02:07:42,720 --> 02:07:44,399
Speaker 39: Yeah, No, I wanted to bring up on on this

2057
02:07:44,760 --> 02:07:49,560
topic of sort of you know, dispensationalism and premillennialism. The

2058
02:07:49,960 --> 02:07:53,159
late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsay. Those are the

2059
02:07:53,199 --> 02:07:55,279
other writers that he's influenced. There's a guy out there,

2060
02:07:55,399 --> 02:07:59,720
Gary Wayne's Canadian author who's quite prolific, right, and he

2061
02:08:00,000 --> 02:08:01,800
actually I've listened to that a podcasts. He calls that

2062
02:08:01,920 --> 02:08:04,680
his coming to knowledge of like sort of his Nephelin

2063
02:08:04,800 --> 02:08:08,159
subject was through the lens of you know, the great

2064
02:08:08,239 --> 02:08:10,399
great planet Earth. And you know, I mean, just from

2065
02:08:10,680 --> 02:08:11,800
what I understand about it.

2066
02:08:11,880 --> 02:08:13,359
Speaker 1: They heavily rely on, you know.

2067
02:08:13,520 --> 02:08:16,279
Speaker 39: Prophecy, like Daniel and Ezekiel and revelation.

2068
02:08:16,479 --> 02:08:19,079
Speaker 1: You had some guy on this space and Daniel nine

2069
02:08:19,119 --> 02:08:21,680
as we were arguing a couple of nights ago, is

2070
02:08:21,800 --> 02:08:24,079
the first Advent? It's not the end of the world.

2071
02:08:24,880 --> 02:08:26,880
Speaker 39: No, oh yeah, of course, Well they're completely misplaced.

2072
02:08:26,920 --> 02:08:29,359
Speaker 1: I'm not proposing this at all. I'm just saying I

2073
02:08:29,479 --> 02:08:33,760
just reiterated when you read Daniel nine, it changes everything

2074
02:08:33,840 --> 02:08:36,600
if it's talking about the first Advent. There's a few

2075
02:08:36,680 --> 02:08:37,760
other guys out there too.

2076
02:08:37,840 --> 02:08:39,199
Speaker 39: But of course, I mean one of the things that

2077
02:08:39,279 --> 02:08:41,359
obviously it focuses on is like sort of like fake

2078
02:08:41,479 --> 02:08:45,000
Armageddon and the coming thereof like predicating I read.

2079
02:08:44,800 --> 02:08:47,079
Speaker 1: The Gray Planet Earth back in the nineties when I

2080
02:08:47,199 --> 02:08:48,600
was an evangelical.

2081
02:08:48,760 --> 02:08:50,960
Speaker 39: Yeah, and so yeah, and the I've read you know,

2082
02:08:51,079 --> 02:08:53,600
the the Gary Wayne stuff which pulls off of that

2083
02:08:53,760 --> 02:08:56,600
and some of the you know, mysticism and with the Nephelin,

2084
02:08:56,680 --> 02:08:58,960
which in and of itself is a hot topic with

2085
02:08:59,079 --> 02:09:03,840
the JQ because some connect you know, the Nephilim genetically

2086
02:09:04,600 --> 02:09:07,840
to you know, a modern day iteration of you know,

2087
02:09:07,920 --> 02:09:11,680
I guess the geopolitical state we've been talking about, you know, Israel.

2088
02:09:12,119 --> 02:09:14,000
Speaker 1: That sounds like a bunch of fed shit. Honestly, that

2089
02:09:14,079 --> 02:09:17,600
sounds like that's a lot of Christian identity lunatics come

2090
02:09:17,720 --> 02:09:19,680
up with this kind of stuff, yea, And I wanted

2091
02:09:19,720 --> 02:09:21,720
to put that out there that people are arguing that.

2092
02:09:21,840 --> 02:09:24,159
Speaker 39: So there's you know, obviously the orthodox position on this

2093
02:09:24,359 --> 02:09:27,359
is unassailable when it comes to eschatology, and just you know,

2094
02:09:27,520 --> 02:09:29,479
like take I think it's from I don't know as

2095
02:09:29,560 --> 02:09:31,079
much about it, but I could see it's a more

2096
02:09:31,199 --> 02:09:34,800
cautious approach than rather predicting, you know, based upon like

2097
02:09:34,880 --> 02:09:38,319
you know, piecing Bible pieces together, sort of like schizo.

2098
02:09:38,560 --> 02:09:41,880
Speaker 1: You know, conpira. So that was just my comment. Good

2099
02:09:41,920 --> 02:09:44,359
good is a good point. You know, a lot of

2100
02:09:44,479 --> 02:09:48,319
low IQ evangelicals are duped into a lot of this

2101
02:09:49,039 --> 02:09:53,399
sort of hybrid nephylim genetic experiment stuff. Now, I'm not

2102
02:09:53,520 --> 02:09:57,119
saying that Genesis six isn't necessarily talking about angels. I'm

2103
02:09:57,159 --> 02:09:59,560
not like I've always thought that that's what the text

2104
02:09:59,640 --> 02:10:02,680
is saying, and there's many places in the Deutero canon

2105
02:10:02,760 --> 02:10:06,199
to talk about the same type of stuff too, But

2106
02:10:07,319 --> 02:10:09,000
I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with

2107
02:10:09,680 --> 02:10:13,359
what's happening right now in Israel or anything else. I mean,

2108
02:10:13,760 --> 02:10:15,439
I don't think it has anything to do with nephel M.

2109
02:10:17,119 --> 02:10:18,960
I could be wrong, and there's just something I don't

2110
02:10:19,000 --> 02:10:21,520
know about. But the other thing is that, like I said,

2111
02:10:22,159 --> 02:10:24,039
a lot of the groups that push that stuff are

2112
02:10:24,039 --> 02:10:27,960
the same groups that push the heresy of Christian identity stuff.

2113
02:10:28,159 --> 02:10:30,640
I'm not saying that the Gary Wayne dude teaches that,

2114
02:10:30,800 --> 02:10:32,800
but I'm saying there's overlap with these groups. That's a

2115
02:10:32,840 --> 02:10:35,560
lot of FED stuff. I've had those people come around

2116
02:10:35,600 --> 02:10:37,239
and try to debate too, and they're always like, well,

2117
02:10:37,239 --> 02:10:39,279
you know who the seed of the serpenty is. It's

2118
02:10:39,359 --> 02:10:42,800
the Jews. No, that's not saying that there's a there's

2119
02:10:42,840 --> 02:10:46,840
a and they actually literally believe that like Satan slept

2120
02:10:46,920 --> 02:10:49,560
with Eve and has a race of people.

2121
02:10:50,840 --> 02:10:54,239
Speaker 5: Well then you know they actually as the creator of

2122
02:10:54,319 --> 02:10:56,680
all things and then God created.

2123
02:10:57,119 --> 02:10:59,359
Speaker 1: Right. This is called the serpent seed heresy. And if

2124
02:10:59,359 --> 02:11:01,880
you ever meet a Christian identity person, this is what

2125
02:11:02,000 --> 02:11:08,279
they believe. And if I recall, uh Timothy McVeigh when

2126
02:11:08,279 --> 02:11:12,359
he was involved in Elohem City, that fake FED group

2127
02:11:12,399 --> 02:11:14,159
that he was involved in, I think they taught Christian

2128
02:11:14,199 --> 02:11:17,039
identity stuff. So this is like a classic FED trap.

2129
02:11:18,199 --> 02:11:21,840
Speaker 4: Anyway, Well, about the serpent seed thing like hypothetically, if

2130
02:11:21,920 --> 02:11:25,479
someone if someone knew that their brother was literally the

2131
02:11:25,520 --> 02:11:27,239
Antichrist because of Vegan, made I.

2132
02:11:27,279 --> 02:11:29,199
Speaker 1: Think, I think you might know a little bit about that.

2133
02:11:30,479 --> 02:11:34,520
Speaker 4: What would their immediate brother also have to be serpent

2134
02:11:34,560 --> 02:11:36,279
seed or could there be like did they don't know?

2135
02:11:36,359 --> 02:11:38,800
Speaker 1: It would mean that trist If Tristan is the Antichrist,

2136
02:11:38,920 --> 02:11:41,279
that would mean that Tristan is the ultimate seed of

2137
02:11:41,319 --> 02:11:46,399
the serpent. Yeah, okay, and like okay, so basically like

2138
02:11:46,520 --> 02:11:48,960
you would be justified and you know, like doing whatever

2139
02:11:49,000 --> 02:11:50,760
you need to do to save the world. Right, doesn't

2140
02:11:51,079 --> 02:11:54,039
like Keanu Reeves and Constantine. Right, Keanu is basically trying

2141
02:11:54,039 --> 02:11:55,279
to save the world from the anti Christ.

2142
02:11:55,399 --> 02:11:57,840
Speaker 4: So well what a lot of people don't realize that

2143
02:11:57,960 --> 02:12:02,479
Keanu Reeves and Constantine that was actually a Masonic predicted

2144
02:12:02,560 --> 02:12:04,680
programming of what the end of the world is going

2145
02:12:04,760 --> 02:12:04,880
to be.

2146
02:12:05,840 --> 02:12:07,600
Speaker 1: So the wait, are you saving us or not?

2147
02:12:09,479 --> 02:12:13,199
Speaker 5: I can't I can't talk on Twitter. We'll yeah, we'll

2148
02:12:13,239 --> 02:12:14,079
talk on snapchat.

2149
02:12:14,359 --> 02:12:16,800
Speaker 1: For those that don't know, there is a Vegan who's

2150
02:12:16,840 --> 02:12:21,680
basically exposed Tristan as the Antichrist. So that's what we're

2151
02:12:21,720 --> 02:12:24,479
talking about. It's a lot, it's really deep. It's hard

2152
02:12:24,479 --> 02:12:26,000
to go into and a lot of people are not

2153
02:12:26,000 --> 02:12:45,560
gonna understand it. But yeah, Marshall, Marshall, you can you

2154
02:12:45,560 --> 02:12:49,880
hear me? Yes, sir, all right, Uh yeah.

2155
02:12:49,920 --> 02:12:52,640
Speaker 40: I was just uh earlier when you were talking about

2156
02:12:53,800 --> 02:12:55,800
the You're talking about the dating of the Book of

2157
02:12:55,880 --> 02:12:59,359
Revelation and stuff like that. I was just wondering, because

2158
02:12:59,359 --> 02:13:02,399
I don't think I've never heard this brought up. Do

2159
02:13:02,520 --> 02:13:06,399
you think it's the plausible that, like, say, the chapter

2160
02:13:06,520 --> 02:13:09,560
thirteen of the Book of Revelation and various other chapters

2161
02:13:10,279 --> 02:13:13,159
that they were written prior to seventy eight, and then

2162
02:13:13,479 --> 02:13:16,239
other chapters are written after, Like, is that plausible that

2163
02:13:16,239 --> 02:13:17,479
they're written at different times?

2164
02:13:18,199 --> 02:13:19,960
Speaker 1: I think that would go against the tradition of the

2165
02:13:20,079 --> 02:13:22,399
Church that John wrote it and wrote it to the

2166
02:13:22,520 --> 02:13:26,199
seven churches. So I've not heard this, I mean, so

2167
02:13:26,520 --> 02:13:28,079
it sounds like a higher critical idea.

2168
02:13:30,439 --> 02:13:30,640
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2169
02:13:30,640 --> 02:13:32,840
Speaker 40: I was just I was just yeah, I was just

2170
02:13:32,920 --> 02:13:35,520
curious because like, I was never never heard that or

2171
02:13:35,640 --> 02:13:37,720
like thought about that. I just kind of thought about it.

2172
02:13:37,720 --> 02:13:39,640
I was like, Oh, I wonder, I wonder if that

2173
02:13:39,840 --> 02:13:40,479
could be the case.

2174
02:13:40,520 --> 02:13:44,119
Speaker 1: Maybe they read before Jerusalem fell, because it's a it's

2175
02:13:44,159 --> 02:13:47,039
a thhd thesis on the on this thesis, which is

2176
02:13:47,119 --> 02:13:49,720
really good. So I'm not a huge fan obviously I

2177
02:13:49,840 --> 02:13:54,920
ken Gentry, but his thesis is pretty good. Roll with it.

2178
02:14:04,279 --> 02:14:08,359
Speaker 41: Yeah, just a quick thought again about forgiving this point

2179
02:14:08,399 --> 02:14:10,560
across and stuff. You know, if the Calvinist says something

2180
02:14:10,680 --> 02:14:14,159
like I can retroactively be applied, it seems like they

2181
02:14:14,199 --> 02:14:16,119
still don't have a way to describe that it's other

2182
02:14:16,239 --> 02:14:19,960
than sovereignty, because I've never heard from a Protestant death

2183
02:14:20,039 --> 02:14:23,199
being defeated. So if the universal death is defeated on

2184
02:14:23,279 --> 02:14:26,079
the cross, then it seems like that would be awake.

2185
02:14:27,039 --> 02:14:29,079
Speaker 1: I don't think they would. Yeah, they wouldn't connect it

2186
02:14:29,199 --> 02:14:32,199
to the defeat of death. They would say that it's

2187
02:14:32,359 --> 02:14:34,760
just the sovereignty of God that will just they can

2188
02:14:34,840 --> 02:14:37,119
just sort of apply the grace. But that's a great

2189
02:14:37,159 --> 02:14:39,680
point too, which is like, well, now wait a minute, dude,

2190
02:14:39,760 --> 02:14:42,680
just really a loud man, I can't hear you. Sorry, Okay,

2191
02:14:43,520 --> 02:14:45,079
that's actually a good point though, because it's like, well,

2192
02:14:45,079 --> 02:14:47,800
wait a minute, if God can apply the grace without

2193
02:14:47,880 --> 02:14:50,199
the work of the Cross, or in spite of it,

2194
02:14:50,359 --> 02:14:52,399
or just on the base of his sovereignty, then the

2195
02:14:52,479 --> 02:14:54,760
work of the cross isn't really necessary for this event,

2196
02:14:55,359 --> 02:14:59,600
So that's actually a good roundabout way to disprove PSA.

2197
02:14:59,760 --> 02:15:06,920
But Calvinism, it's a good point anybody else, it's open

2198
02:15:07,000 --> 02:15:11,760
for him. We've still got over three hundred people in here.

2199
02:15:11,760 --> 02:15:13,880
If you want to request to speak, ask a question,

2200
02:15:14,479 --> 02:15:19,159
if you like the debate, offer a challenge, bring an

2201
02:15:19,199 --> 02:15:21,439
issue to the Just keep it to the topics, please,

2202
02:15:21,600 --> 02:15:27,319
So we're not talking about catechumen, diet questions. Please, I'm

2203
02:15:27,359 --> 02:15:28,399
not talking about canon law.

2204
02:15:30,520 --> 02:15:32,800
Speaker 5: Can we talk about fashion? Is that part of the topics?

2205
02:15:32,800 --> 02:15:33,319
I don't see that.

2206
02:15:34,960 --> 02:15:38,760
Speaker 1: Men's maybe if we bring the Tristan in here, we

2207
02:15:38,840 --> 02:15:40,479
can talk fashion, can we not?

2208
02:15:40,720 --> 02:15:42,199
Speaker 5: I'm having a good day, Okay.

2209
02:15:44,239 --> 02:15:47,279
Speaker 1: I don't think we need the Beast system speaking to

2210
02:15:47,439 --> 02:15:57,319
us directly, do we? And Lo? I heard the Beast

2211
02:15:57,359 --> 02:16:10,000
speaking great words and bless us, So Chase, If if

2212
02:16:10,039 --> 02:16:13,600
Tristan is the Antichrist, who would the false prophet be?

2213
02:16:16,920 --> 02:16:18,119
Speaker 5: Honestly, that would.

2214
02:16:18,800 --> 02:16:21,319
Speaker 1: That would have to be a email or some figure

2215
02:16:21,399 --> 02:16:24,920
promoting Tristan. Who would that be? Yeah?

2216
02:16:24,960 --> 02:16:26,840
Speaker 5: That that would probably be Vegan Gains.

2217
02:16:29,760 --> 02:16:31,520
Speaker 1: But if you're a vegan, why would Vegan Gains be

2218
02:16:31,600 --> 02:16:32,319
a false prophet?

2219
02:16:33,920 --> 02:16:39,079
Speaker 4: Well, this is to lull the sheeople who support Tristan into,

2220
02:16:39,639 --> 02:16:46,559
you know, being caught in a false style. Yeah, I'm

2221
02:16:46,680 --> 02:16:49,280
I'm pretty close to figuring out what's going on here.

2222
02:16:49,280 --> 02:16:51,159
I just need a couple more days and I need

2223
02:16:51,200 --> 02:16:52,840
a couple more whiteboards to be able to draw.

2224
02:16:53,000 --> 02:16:55,319
Speaker 1: You need some more profited some prophecy charts.

2225
02:16:56,280 --> 02:16:58,200
Speaker 5: I need some more. I need to finish my prophecy

2226
02:16:58,280 --> 02:16:59,840
charts and then I'll get back to you.

2227
02:17:03,639 --> 02:17:06,120
Speaker 1: I should do a skit making fun of propty charts.

2228
02:17:06,200 --> 02:17:08,200
That would be like really easy to do, and I

2229
02:17:08,280 --> 02:17:09,959
think a lot of people would think that's funny.

2230
02:17:12,120 --> 02:17:14,159
Speaker 4: I think that a skit that would be funny too,

2231
02:17:14,239 --> 02:17:16,600
is a one make in front of the camatria of people,

2232
02:17:17,000 --> 02:17:19,959
just because it's so skitz and just the connections they

2233
02:17:20,040 --> 02:17:21,280
make are it's so insane.

2234
02:17:24,000 --> 02:17:26,639
Speaker 1: Anybody else three hundred and ten people, Nobody wants to

2235
02:17:26,719 --> 02:17:29,319
come up and speak, ask a question, offer an argument,

2236
02:17:29,479 --> 02:17:35,319
present the counter thesis, anything to do with evangelicalism, dispensationalism

2237
02:17:35,399 --> 02:17:51,600
in times, Catholicism, Protestantism, Slow boy, slow boy, and then hey,

2238
02:17:53,639 --> 02:17:56,680
how are you good? What's on your mind?

2239
02:17:58,680 --> 02:17:58,879
Speaker 5: Well?

2240
02:17:59,120 --> 02:18:01,639
Speaker 6: I didn't have anything to argue about I just wanted

2241
02:18:01,639 --> 02:18:06,079
to see if you saw that Apostate prophet has started

2242
02:18:06,120 --> 02:18:07,600
going to Orthodox leturgy.

2243
02:18:09,760 --> 02:18:12,040
Speaker 1: I saw him say that he had attended one. That's

2244
02:18:12,079 --> 02:18:16,200
good news. I hope that he I think.

2245
02:18:17,760 --> 02:18:20,719
Speaker 6: I think his wife was raised Orthodox.

2246
02:18:21,040 --> 02:18:22,399
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.

2247
02:18:22,399 --> 02:18:23,360
Speaker 12: I just wanted to say that.

2248
02:18:23,840 --> 02:18:24,639
Speaker 10: I'm really happy.

2249
02:18:26,120 --> 02:18:28,879
Speaker 9: I think if if he can influence.

2250
02:18:28,719 --> 02:18:32,520
Speaker 31: David Wood, yeah, it would be awesome.

2251
02:18:32,879 --> 02:18:36,840
Speaker 1: Like I don't understand why David Wood has never considered

2252
02:18:36,879 --> 02:18:41,840
it or won't. Yeah right, I don't have anything personally

2253
02:18:41,879 --> 02:18:44,559
against David Wood or anything, but I mean he's out

2254
02:18:44,600 --> 02:18:47,479
of Fordham, so I don't I don't know. Maybe that

2255
02:18:47,600 --> 02:18:49,639
has a part to plan it. I'm not booting you,

2256
02:18:49,799 --> 02:18:53,360
it's it was really choppy audio. So but thank you

2257
02:18:53,440 --> 02:18:58,079
for that. Uh, promitheus.

2258
02:18:59,159 --> 02:19:05,000
Speaker 3: Up, Jay, it's PROBYTHEUS. Okay, thanks for having me. I

2259
02:19:05,159 --> 02:19:07,399
just saw the title and thought i'd come in.

2260
02:19:08,159 --> 02:19:20,680
Speaker 1: Okay, what's on your mind? Are you there? Did you

2261
02:19:20,719 --> 02:19:21,760
want did you want to talk?

2262
02:19:24,639 --> 02:19:27,159
Speaker 4: He just wanted to let you know his name, and uh,

2263
02:19:27,440 --> 02:19:30,040
I think that's pretty that's pretty Sorr Todd father or either.

2264
02:19:31,719 --> 02:19:32,159
Speaker 5: I am here?

2265
02:19:32,280 --> 02:19:35,559
Speaker 1: Is it working? Yes, sir? H Yeah, I just had

2266
02:19:35,600 --> 02:19:36,200
a quick question.

2267
02:19:36,319 --> 02:19:39,920
Speaker 42: I remember some months ago, Sam had said something about

2268
02:19:40,239 --> 02:19:41,879
you were going to have a debate on his channel

2269
02:19:41,879 --> 02:19:45,920
about Catholicism versus Orthodoxy, and I was just wondering if

2270
02:19:45,959 --> 02:19:48,319
that had happened yet, or if I had just missed her,

2271
02:19:48,399 --> 02:19:49,440
or is it not gonna happen.

2272
02:19:49,680 --> 02:19:49,760
Speaker 11: Uh?

2273
02:19:50,000 --> 02:19:52,760
Speaker 1: No, No one in my circles and my friends wants

2274
02:19:52,799 --> 02:19:56,040
anything to do with William Helmbrecht, and so what I

2275
02:19:56,200 --> 02:20:00,639
offered was to do a presentation, to not have a

2276
02:20:00,719 --> 02:20:03,399
direct None of us want anything to do with Albrecht.

2277
02:20:03,520 --> 02:20:07,440
He's a really slimy person. It's not an excuse. And

2278
02:20:07,559 --> 02:20:12,159
so what we offered to do was Albrick does a

2279
02:20:12,200 --> 02:20:14,280
presentation on his channel and then I do a counter

2280
02:20:14,360 --> 02:20:16,959
presentation or vice versa. And I've not heard back from

2281
02:20:17,000 --> 02:20:24,399
Sam on whether he wants to do that, do you

2282
02:20:24,479 --> 02:20:28,200
hear me? Yeah? All right, yep, that was it. That's

2283
02:20:28,239 --> 02:20:31,600
all surely anything I had. So yeah, originally it was

2284
02:20:31,600 --> 02:20:34,799
going to be a round table, and then UBI didn'

2285
02:20:34,840 --> 02:20:37,760
want anything to do with Albrecht other possible people, so

2286
02:20:37,840 --> 02:20:39,719
they don't want anything to do with Albrecht. And then

2287
02:20:40,079 --> 02:20:41,600
Sam asked me if I want to do one on

2288
02:20:41,719 --> 02:20:43,600
one with Albrecht. I said no, I'd rather just do

2289
02:20:43,760 --> 02:20:47,159
a separate presentation to not any even directly interact with him.

2290
02:20:48,479 --> 02:21:06,319
Did you want to say something else, Prometheus? Yeah, I'm sorry.

2291
02:21:07,399 --> 02:21:08,200
Speaker 3: Were you talking to me?

2292
02:21:10,040 --> 02:21:11,559
Speaker 1: You requested to speak? Yeah? What's up?

2293
02:21:12,680 --> 02:21:12,879
Speaker 5: Yeah?

2294
02:21:12,959 --> 02:21:13,159
Speaker 4: Jay?

2295
02:21:13,399 --> 02:21:16,719
Speaker 3: No, thanks for having me up first and foremost. No,

2296
02:21:17,040 --> 02:21:20,079
like I believe that we are at the time that

2297
02:21:20,239 --> 02:21:25,159
Jesus described. No, regardless of the labels, I don't really like,

2298
02:21:25,879 --> 02:21:28,479
you know, are you this faction or that faction? I

2299
02:21:28,600 --> 02:21:31,799
know that's the title, but I just consider myself a

2300
02:21:31,879 --> 02:21:32,760
follower of Christ.

2301
02:21:33,399 --> 02:21:34,559
Speaker 1: I believe that we are.

2302
02:21:35,239 --> 02:21:38,280
Speaker 3: You know, when he talks about in Luke twenty one,

2303
02:21:39,399 --> 02:21:44,120
when you see these signs earthquakes, nation fighting against nation,

2304
02:21:45,159 --> 02:21:47,239
plagues which we just had a big one.

2305
02:21:48,399 --> 02:21:51,000
Speaker 1: Rewind there, because at the beginning of that chapter he

2306
02:21:51,159 --> 02:21:55,200
talks about the people standing in front of him would

2307
02:21:55,280 --> 02:21:59,200
not see. They would not pass away until they saw

2308
02:21:59,319 --> 02:22:01,840
all those things has happened, And all those things happened

2309
02:22:01,920 --> 02:22:05,399
in seventy a d. So that's a prediction of Jerusalem

2310
02:22:05,440 --> 02:22:08,079
being surrounded. That's what he tells them to pray that

2311
02:22:08,200 --> 02:22:10,239
it doesn't happen on the Sabbath day that they have

2312
02:22:10,360 --> 02:22:13,600
to fleet outside the city. Those are all events that

2313
02:22:13,680 --> 02:22:16,040
are contemporary with the generation in front of him.

2314
02:22:17,920 --> 02:22:23,239
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and it was a mixed star right now. Well,

2315
02:22:24,159 --> 02:22:27,159
I respectfully disagree because I believe he talked about both.

2316
02:22:27,600 --> 02:22:30,440
I believe talked about absolutely.

2317
02:22:30,639 --> 02:22:33,399
Speaker 1: How I would fleeing. I agree with you that it

2318
02:22:33,479 --> 02:22:35,280
is also talking about the end of the world, But

2319
02:22:35,399 --> 02:22:37,799
how would that apply to what's happening right now because

2320
02:22:37,840 --> 02:22:39,479
there was an earthquake or something like that.

2321
02:22:41,040 --> 02:22:44,280
Speaker 3: Well, has Jesus come back? That's the main question when

2322
02:22:44,319 --> 02:22:46,520
he'd ask ourselves because the dement.

2323
02:22:47,079 --> 02:22:50,079
Speaker 1: But he came in judgment in seventy eight as he

2324
02:22:50,280 --> 02:22:54,159
promised to destroy Jerusalem, just like he came in judgment

2325
02:22:54,200 --> 02:22:56,399
on the clouds in Isaiah nineteen as he said he

2326
02:22:56,399 --> 02:22:58,520
would do. And then Ezekiel he says, I will come

2327
02:22:58,559 --> 02:23:02,079
in judgment on the cloud. He didn't literally visibly come back,

2328
02:23:02,200 --> 02:23:07,440
but it was a prophetic term language for the coming judgment, which,

2329
02:23:07,799 --> 02:23:11,159
for example, in the Babylonian case, God judge the Israelites

2330
02:23:11,200 --> 02:23:13,840
by bringing the Babylonians in to destroy Israel. So the

2331
02:23:13,920 --> 02:23:16,520
same thing happened in seventy eighty. It's a mirrored fulfillment.

2332
02:23:16,959 --> 02:23:18,360
And I'm just saying that some of the things that

2333
02:23:18,399 --> 02:23:22,479
you've listed actually are referenced in the Book of Acts

2334
02:23:22,760 --> 02:23:26,840
as well. So why would we think that an earthquake

2335
02:23:26,959 --> 02:23:30,200
happening somewhere is somehow or the fulfillment of that.

2336
02:23:31,719 --> 02:23:36,360
Speaker 3: Well, has the millennial reign happened in your view, because.

2337
02:23:36,639 --> 02:23:39,840
Speaker 1: My reign is the church. So for example, every time

2338
02:23:39,920 --> 02:23:42,280
Psalm one ten, for the most part, when it's cited

2339
02:23:42,280 --> 02:23:45,440
in the New Testament, it decided about the ascension and

2340
02:23:45,600 --> 02:23:46,559
not the Second Coming.

2341
02:23:48,600 --> 02:23:51,600
Speaker 3: All right, if I could speak just for a couple

2342
02:23:51,639 --> 02:23:53,280
of minutes here, okay, well.

2343
02:23:54,200 --> 02:23:56,000
Speaker 1: What I said registered, Are you aware of what I'm

2344
02:23:56,000 --> 02:23:56,479
talking about?

2345
02:23:57,280 --> 02:23:57,959
Speaker 21: Yeah, yeah, I am.

2346
02:23:58,159 --> 02:24:00,079
Speaker 3: And again I would have liked you to what what

2347
02:24:00,879 --> 02:24:02,680
is respectfully disagree?

2348
02:24:02,799 --> 02:24:06,159
Speaker 1: Okay? So what is disagree? Question about that? What is

2349
02:24:06,200 --> 02:24:07,280
Psalm one ten about?

2350
02:24:10,799 --> 02:24:13,200
Speaker 3: Feel free to read it to me, because I'm one

2351
02:24:13,200 --> 02:24:14,159
of the most I can't.

2352
02:24:14,040 --> 02:24:17,360
Speaker 1: Know it, Almostsienic Psalms sit at my right hand until

2353
02:24:17,399 --> 02:24:20,719
I make your enemies your footstool. When did Jesus sit

2354
02:24:20,799 --> 02:24:21,680
at the Father's right.

2355
02:24:21,600 --> 02:24:24,559
Speaker 3: Hand when he ascended?

2356
02:24:25,040 --> 02:24:28,120
Speaker 1: Yes, so the beginning of the reign of Christ to

2357
02:24:28,319 --> 02:24:30,280
sit at the right hand of the Father to reign

2358
02:24:30,319 --> 02:24:33,200
in that kingdom, just like Daniel seven says when he

2359
02:24:33,360 --> 02:24:35,559
comes to the Ancient of days, and he's given authority

2360
02:24:35,600 --> 02:24:38,879
over all tribes, songs and nations. When John sees into heaven,

2361
02:24:39,360 --> 02:24:41,840
he sees that as a present reality, that the Lamb

2362
02:24:42,040 --> 02:24:45,479
in heaven is given authority, dominion, and power over all tribes,

2363
02:24:45,479 --> 02:24:48,920
songs and nations. So Daniel seven is fulfilled in what

2364
02:24:49,079 --> 02:24:52,159
John sees in the book Revelation. It's the present reign

2365
02:24:52,239 --> 02:24:54,760
of Christ in the Church. That's why Jesus consistently refers

2366
02:24:54,760 --> 02:24:58,479
to the Church as the kingdom, such as Matthew sixteen.

2367
02:24:58,639 --> 02:25:01,040
He tells Peter, you are the rock, and I will

2368
02:25:01,040 --> 02:25:04,479
give you the keys. You will be the keyholder of

2369
02:25:04,639 --> 02:25:10,040
the Kingdom of Heaven. So it's a present reality.

2370
02:25:10,520 --> 02:25:14,600
Speaker 3: I disagree with your interpretation in all.

2371
02:25:14,639 --> 02:25:17,479
Speaker 1: Those versus where is there anything that is your interpretation?

2372
02:25:18,719 --> 02:25:21,520
Speaker 3: It's it's not about my interpretation. It's about the physical

2373
02:25:21,600 --> 02:25:23,600
reality of the fact that the Church is still here.

2374
02:25:24,040 --> 02:25:26,959
Paul said in the Twinkling of an Eye the Church.

2375
02:25:28,120 --> 02:25:30,440
Hold on, you've been talking, bro, Do I get to

2376
02:25:30,520 --> 02:25:31,360
respond or are you.

2377
02:25:31,399 --> 02:25:32,319
Speaker 21: Just going to talk over me?

2378
02:25:32,479 --> 02:25:35,319
Speaker 1: Goodbye? Prime?

2379
02:25:37,639 --> 02:25:40,360
Speaker 14: Definitely I agree with that young man that was talking

2380
02:25:40,399 --> 02:25:42,319
to you about the rapture.

2381
02:25:42,399 --> 02:25:44,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no rapture in the Bible. The rapture is

2382
02:25:45,040 --> 02:25:47,559
the bodily second coming of Christ to take us up

2383
02:25:47,600 --> 02:25:49,879
to the clouds. Does the Bible teach two comings of

2384
02:25:49,959 --> 02:25:53,719
Christ or one two? No teaches one. There's a twin

2385
02:25:53,799 --> 02:25:57,280
coming of Christ at the end to resonate. Tell me

2386
02:25:57,319 --> 02:26:00,159
about one. Tell me what's the only one? First cristin

2387
02:26:00,319 --> 02:26:03,639
fifteen Paul says that all of humanity will be resurrected

2388
02:26:03,680 --> 02:26:07,760
in Christ. That's the second resurrection. The first resurrection is baptism,

2389
02:26:08,079 --> 02:26:11,159
which begins when you join the church. Man, you're taking

2390
02:26:11,280 --> 02:26:14,760
the context out of the Bible. Man, I take the

2391
02:26:14,879 --> 02:26:21,520
context out. Sound like a pharisee. The only paris here's

2392
02:26:21,600 --> 02:26:25,440
you because you actually you are judaizing heretics. You're the Pharisees.

2393
02:26:25,920 --> 02:26:26,319
I'll tell you.

2394
02:26:26,399 --> 02:26:29,879
Speaker 14: In Thessalonians we talk about the raptures and the second

2395
02:26:29,959 --> 02:26:31,239
coming is with Jews.

2396
02:26:31,920 --> 02:26:35,319
Speaker 1: You don't like Jews? All right, you're a heretic. Do

2397
02:26:35,399 --> 02:26:50,399
you like Jews? You're a heretic, Father Christopher, You'll notice

2398
02:26:50,440 --> 02:26:53,000
the evangelicals have no conception of the Church. You see,

2399
02:26:53,040 --> 02:26:57,680
this is the big missing blind spot that Christ's reign

2400
02:26:58,319 --> 02:27:01,760
is in his kingdom which he identifies as the church

2401
02:27:01,840 --> 02:27:05,479
that he set up. Paul says, Jimi Peter says that

2402
02:27:05,719 --> 02:27:09,200
the church is a nation, a priesthood built on the

2403
02:27:09,280 --> 02:27:12,840
foundation stones of the apostles. It's a present reality. That

2404
02:27:13,040 --> 02:27:16,600
means the Church, the Temple, the body, the kingdom, the branch,

2405
02:27:16,840 --> 02:27:19,760
the tree, They're all identical. The sheep fold. It's the

2406
02:27:19,879 --> 02:27:26,799
same analogies for one historical visible entity, the Orthodox Church.

2407
02:27:27,040 --> 02:27:39,159
Speaker 43: That's it, Father Christopher, Hello everyone, God bless you. I

2408
02:27:39,600 --> 02:27:44,920
remember that I read on Saint tel Philostoph Bulgaria. He

2409
02:27:45,040 --> 02:27:51,360
interpreted that passage from Matthew that it was referring both

2410
02:27:51,440 --> 02:27:55,200
to the destruction of Jerusalem and the second coming of Christ.

2411
02:27:55,680 --> 02:28:02,040
There were separate passages. And this is also spiritual, as

2412
02:28:02,079 --> 02:28:06,360
I remember, there are spiritual symbols over there. So your

2413
02:28:06,440 --> 02:28:09,760
run out to be on winter or on the Saturday.

2414
02:28:10,360 --> 02:28:13,040
It's referring to the cold of faith.

2415
02:28:13,120 --> 02:28:15,760
Speaker 9: And the Saturday is the lack of work.

2416
02:28:15,959 --> 02:28:19,159
Speaker 43: So the laziness when you do not do the commandments

2417
02:28:19,239 --> 02:28:21,280
of the commandments of God's right.

2418
02:28:22,079 --> 02:28:24,959
Speaker 1: I understand that, but with a lot of evangelicals going

2419
02:28:25,040 --> 02:28:27,719
into the spiritual meanings of the text is going to

2420
02:28:27,760 --> 02:28:30,079
be lost on them and so I was focusing on

2421
02:28:30,840 --> 02:28:35,559
the immediate historical, grammatical, historical context just to get the

2422
02:28:35,639 --> 02:28:38,639
evangelicals out of thinking of it as the end of

2423
02:28:38,680 --> 02:28:39,799
the world necessarily.

2424
02:28:40,799 --> 02:28:42,159
Speaker 10: Okay, okay, thank you very much.

2425
02:28:42,520 --> 02:28:45,120
Speaker 1: I appreciate absolutely No, you brought a great point, and

2426
02:28:45,239 --> 02:28:48,200
we do want to stress that it is we agree

2427
02:28:48,479 --> 02:28:52,000
of both. Right. So Jesus is talking about the events

2428
02:28:52,479 --> 02:28:55,559
contemporary with him. If you read Saint John Chrystalstm's sermons

2429
02:28:56,159 --> 02:28:59,639
on Matthew twenty four, for example, he makes us very

2430
02:28:59,680 --> 02:29:02,440
clear that about the destruction of the Temple, and there

2431
02:29:02,520 --> 02:29:04,440
is an application to the end of the world as well.

2432
02:29:04,600 --> 02:29:05,760
How do we know that? How do we know that

2433
02:29:05,799 --> 02:29:09,559
it's a mirrored thing? Again, because the abomination of desolation

2434
02:29:09,920 --> 02:29:14,559
that Daniel talks about is referring to the Maccabees. This

2435
02:29:14,719 --> 02:29:16,920
is why the Maccabees is in the Orthodox Bible. It

2436
02:29:16,959 --> 02:29:24,000
helps us understand this stuff. When Antiochus Apefans defiles the

2437
02:29:24,079 --> 02:29:26,920
temple by sacrificing a pig on the altar, that's the

2438
02:29:27,000 --> 02:29:31,040
abomination of desolation the days of the Maccabees. When Jesus

2439
02:29:31,120 --> 02:29:35,239
talks about the abomination of desolation in his day, he's

2440
02:29:35,280 --> 02:29:39,639
talking about Rome just like the Greeks, that they will

2441
02:29:39,760 --> 02:29:44,159
engage in the same defilement as a chastisement. And that's

2442
02:29:44,239 --> 02:29:50,360
exactly what happened in seventy eight when Titus Vespasian sacked Jerusalem,

2443
02:29:51,200 --> 02:29:54,360
put up the Roman pagan banners inside the temple, and

2444
02:29:54,479 --> 02:29:57,159
then burned it down and destroyed it. That's what Jesus

2445
02:29:57,280 --> 02:29:59,559
is predicting in Luke twenty one in Matthew twenty four.

2446
02:29:59,639 --> 02:30:05,319
So the evangelical idiots who remove that historic interpretation and

2447
02:30:05,399 --> 02:30:09,200
fulfillment literally are taken away one of the strongest proofs

2448
02:30:10,639 --> 02:30:13,200
of the inspiration of the Gospels. This is why this

2449
02:30:13,319 --> 02:30:16,120
is so devastating and stupid to do this. And there's

2450
02:30:16,200 --> 02:30:19,559
not two comings of Christ. There's one return of Christ

2451
02:30:19,719 --> 02:30:23,000
at the last day. Jesus consistently says in John five.

2452
02:30:23,399 --> 02:30:26,879
On the last Day the dead will be raised, some

2453
02:30:27,159 --> 02:30:30,120
to the resurrection of life, others to the resurrection of condemnation.

2454
02:30:30,239 --> 02:30:33,559
There's not two comings of Christ, like the idiot dispensationalists

2455
02:30:33,559 --> 02:30:37,920
and premillennials say, there's one final return of Christ. That's

2456
02:30:37,959 --> 02:30:41,520
why this heresy is so insidious. You'll notice all these

2457
02:30:41,559 --> 02:30:47,040
people no connection to the historical Church. They default to Israel,

2458
02:30:47,200 --> 02:30:49,920
a secular nation state, as their church. That's so stupid

2459
02:30:49,959 --> 02:30:52,239
these people are. It's an amazing.

2460
02:30:54,799 --> 02:31:01,079
Speaker 29: It just becomes obvious. Obviously almost all, even Agelicals, are

2461
02:31:01,399 --> 02:31:06,280
historically illiterate. Yes, and so they would know this if

2462
02:31:06,319 --> 02:31:09,760
they were historically literate, first and of all. In the

2463
02:31:09,879 --> 02:31:15,120
second of all, they would know that millennialism and Chileanism

2464
02:31:15,600 --> 02:31:19,319
was condemned. Now that's not the same thing as rapture theory,

2465
02:31:19,440 --> 02:31:21,360
but it has elements obviously of it.

2466
02:31:22,840 --> 02:31:25,559
Speaker 11: And so what we just go to the text and

2467
02:31:25,680 --> 02:31:26,440
what do you notice?

2468
02:31:27,079 --> 02:31:30,440
Speaker 29: So they'll get the wrong interpretation because they're historically illiterate,

2469
02:31:30,559 --> 02:31:33,440
not knowing these things are already been solved and the

2470
02:31:33,520 --> 02:31:38,280
proofs are in the history. But number two, going to

2471
02:31:38,440 --> 02:31:40,559
the text, what do you see? There's no amount of

2472
02:31:40,719 --> 02:31:44,559
evidence that you can present to them from the text. Well,

2473
02:31:44,840 --> 02:31:47,920
they'll accept it. They'll just reinterpret it like this guy,

2474
02:31:48,000 --> 02:31:51,200
Oh brother, you're interpreting you wrong. You're so wait a minute,

2475
02:31:51,360 --> 02:31:55,479
everybody got this wrong for eighteen hundred years.

2476
02:31:56,559 --> 02:31:59,040
Speaker 1: They don't even know what the church taught historically, and

2477
02:31:59,159 --> 02:31:59,600
they don't care.

2478
02:32:00,079 --> 02:32:02,399
Speaker 29: Dot and then so and then we're going to get

2479
02:32:02,399 --> 02:32:04,799
our we have to wait eighteen hundred years to get

2480
02:32:04,840 --> 02:32:10,840
the correct interpretation from a fever dream from a guy

2481
02:32:10,920 --> 02:32:15,319
that comes out of Plymouth Brethren that are a cult

2482
02:32:15,399 --> 02:32:18,159
even by and weirdos even by Protestant standards.

2483
02:32:19,319 --> 02:32:22,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's literally no Protestants to tat that doctrine either.

2484
02:32:22,239 --> 02:32:33,399
It's a good point, yeah, Slopez, Okay.

2485
02:32:34,120 --> 02:32:36,319
Speaker 11: It's for some reason.

2486
02:32:36,360 --> 02:32:40,719
Speaker 1: Again, I can't hear you. I'm not talking.

2487
02:32:41,600 --> 02:32:45,920
Speaker 44: Oh sorry, Okay, I had a question. I was reading

2488
02:32:46,000 --> 02:32:49,000
one of the books that you recommended, Orthodox Dogmatic.

2489
02:32:48,639 --> 02:32:52,520
Speaker 1: Theology and PSI or Stunny Yes.

2490
02:32:53,120 --> 02:32:57,280
Speaker 44: By Pomazansky, And inside of it he speaks about the

2491
02:32:58,000 --> 02:33:03,040
Christ as a sacrifice, and so I have a Protestant background,

2492
02:33:03,120 --> 02:33:05,120
and so some of it's just confusing to me. And

2493
02:33:05,360 --> 02:33:09,559
in it he's talking about let me pull up the

2494
02:33:09,639 --> 02:33:15,639
quote exactly, so it's from Saint Gregory the Theologian, and

2495
02:33:16,520 --> 02:33:18,760
he's talking about to whom was the blood offered? And

2496
02:33:18,840 --> 02:33:21,200
to whom what is it shed? And why was it shed?

2497
02:33:21,399 --> 02:33:23,200
I mean the precious blood of our glorious God. And

2498
02:33:23,239 --> 02:33:25,120
then of course he goes further on to say that

2499
02:33:25,719 --> 02:33:28,479
it wasn't to God the Father, and then it also

2500
02:33:28,639 --> 02:33:33,079
wasn't to Satan. The robber is how he refers to him.

2501
02:33:34,120 --> 02:33:35,399
Can you just help me understand.

2502
02:33:35,680 --> 02:33:38,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when you continue reading the book, you'll come

2503
02:33:38,479 --> 02:33:41,920
eventually to a chapter later on, and it may be

2504
02:33:42,040 --> 02:33:45,239
around that section where he will cite a Byzantine synod

2505
02:33:45,360 --> 02:33:49,200
that actually resolved this question when it came up around

2506
02:33:49,239 --> 02:33:53,200
the eleventh century. And what happens is that the divine

2507
02:33:53,280 --> 02:33:58,239
person of the Word is offering the human nature as

2508
02:33:58,399 --> 02:34:01,959
a sacrifice or in an of love, not to pay

2509
02:34:02,040 --> 02:34:06,840
off wrath or a debt, but to the Father by

2510
02:34:06,959 --> 02:34:09,159
the Son in the Holy Spirit. So the reason it's

2511
02:34:09,200 --> 02:34:11,360
not quote to the Father is not because it's not

2512
02:34:11,479 --> 02:34:13,520
at all to the Father. It's because it's not just

2513
02:34:13,719 --> 02:34:18,239
to the Father. That's because Roman Catholics in the Anselmian

2514
02:34:18,319 --> 02:34:22,600
theory teachs that the son is offered to the Father

2515
02:34:23,239 --> 02:34:27,719
as a payment. But that's a heresy because there's nothing

2516
02:34:27,760 --> 02:34:30,719
that exists or happens in God that is between two

2517
02:34:30,799 --> 02:34:34,840
persons and isn't triadic. So you can't have an offering

2518
02:34:35,200 --> 02:34:38,000
of the son to the Father that excludes the spirit.

2519
02:34:38,639 --> 02:34:41,920
So the Businessing Synod states that in the liturgy we've

2520
02:34:42,040 --> 02:34:46,239
solved this theological dilemma by noting that thine own, of

2521
02:34:46,360 --> 02:34:49,959
thine own, we offer unto Thee meaning Christ, the divine

2522
02:34:50,000 --> 02:34:53,319
person of the word, offers the human nature to the

2523
02:34:53,440 --> 02:34:57,319
Father by himself in the spirit. So it's a triadic

2524
02:34:57,479 --> 02:35:00,360
trinitarian offering, is what the synods decided.

2525
02:35:01,559 --> 02:35:04,040
Speaker 44: Okay, and that makes the language and the liturgy make

2526
02:35:04,120 --> 02:35:07,520
more sense exactly, okay, okay, perfect, thank you jay.

2527
02:35:08,159 --> 02:35:10,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you'll notice how different that is from Protestanism

2528
02:35:10,799 --> 02:35:14,479
because for the Orthodox, the liturgy ended up solving this development.

2529
02:35:15,239 --> 02:35:18,120
So it's not that the Bible doesn't matter. The liturgy

2530
02:35:18,200 --> 02:35:22,239
is literally all Bible, like every bit of it. But

2531
02:35:22,680 --> 02:35:27,000
the Church said, our liturgical service itself is a kind

2532
02:35:27,040 --> 02:35:30,520
of divine tradition that can help resolve this question.

2533
02:35:31,920 --> 02:35:35,079
Speaker 44: So is then the Protestant understanding of it just come

2534
02:35:35,159 --> 02:35:40,840
from a further taking of Augustine's theology?

2535
02:35:41,719 --> 02:35:43,879
Speaker 1: Uh No, not really Augustine. In fact, Augustine would be

2536
02:35:43,959 --> 02:35:46,360
much more in line with us on this topic. Actually,

2537
02:35:46,600 --> 02:35:50,399
it's a combination of Anse's theory of atonement, which is

2538
02:35:50,440 --> 02:35:53,600
a payment debt model. He's really the first to suggest

2539
02:35:53,920 --> 02:35:57,159
a legal payment debt theory, and some thinks that there's

2540
02:35:57,200 --> 02:35:59,920
an infinite debt, a creed to accrued to us by sin,

2541
02:36:00,000 --> 02:36:03,680
and that only an infinite person could pay off, namely

2542
02:36:03,799 --> 02:36:06,520
God the Son. So God the Son pays off the

2543
02:36:06,600 --> 02:36:08,840
infinite debt to God the Father, and thus his wrath

2544
02:36:08,959 --> 02:36:12,920
is assuaged. So the beginning is of atonement PSA type

2545
02:36:12,959 --> 02:36:15,559
theory in that way, in a legal construct you go

2546
02:36:15,600 --> 02:36:17,920
to ansel. But then you get in the middle ages

2547
02:36:17,920 --> 02:36:20,920
of a very important development called nominalism from William of

2548
02:36:20,959 --> 02:36:26,239
Oakham and Gabriel Bile, and they influence Luther, who is

2549
02:36:26,280 --> 02:36:29,120
able to then say, well, this is how God can

2550
02:36:29,239 --> 02:36:33,920
say you are legally righteous and declared and viewed as righteous,

2551
02:36:34,479 --> 02:36:38,520
even though onto logically speaking, you have not become righteous.

2552
02:36:38,920 --> 02:36:42,040
You're still filthy rags. But God can declare you and

2553
02:36:42,159 --> 02:36:46,399
see you as righteous through the legal imputational covering of price.

2554
02:36:47,760 --> 02:36:50,600
And it's based on nominalism, namely that things can be

2555
02:36:50,719 --> 02:36:53,520
called things even if they're not that thing. Do you

2556
02:36:53,600 --> 02:36:54,719
know what I mean monominalism?

2557
02:36:55,680 --> 02:36:56,840
Speaker 44: Not exactly now, I'm sorry.

2558
02:36:56,920 --> 02:37:00,479
Speaker 1: So it's a denial of things having essences. Right, So

2559
02:37:00,760 --> 02:37:03,799
how could God call a man righteous if in fact

2560
02:37:03,840 --> 02:37:07,680
he is in fact unrighteous? And for the Orthodox right,

2561
02:37:07,760 --> 02:37:10,879
being righteous means that you're participating in the uncreated onto

2562
02:37:10,959 --> 02:37:14,520
logical energies of God. You see, it's not just a

2563
02:37:14,600 --> 02:37:19,120
legal status, but Luther needed a way to make it

2564
02:37:19,479 --> 02:37:24,920
a purely legal status with no ontological metaphysical implications. The

2565
02:37:25,000 --> 02:37:29,959
philosophy of nominalism, which denies the existence of essences and universals,

2566
02:37:30,600 --> 02:37:34,239
allowed him to make that move. Okay, okay, So that

2567
02:37:34,280 --> 02:37:36,200
makes a lot of the other thing that that proves.

2568
02:37:36,600 --> 02:37:39,280
And you can read Haiko Oberman's book, who himself is

2569
02:37:39,319 --> 02:37:45,360
a Lutheran on this called Harvest Medieval Theology, and al

2570
02:37:45,399 --> 02:37:48,079
Tra McGrath's what you See You Today. They both are

2571
02:37:48,159 --> 02:37:51,760
Protestant theologians who admit all this. What that shows us

2572
02:37:51,879 --> 02:37:53,840
is that if the ancient and medieval world did not

2573
02:37:53,959 --> 02:37:58,440
teach nominalism, then sola fide is literally impossible in the

2574
02:37:58,479 --> 02:38:01,840
ancient world. That means Paul didn't teach soul. If you didn't.

2575
02:38:02,959 --> 02:38:05,360
Speaker 44: And so when we hear early Church fathers talking about

2576
02:38:05,399 --> 02:38:07,959
Christ as a sacrifice, this is what they mean Versus

2577
02:38:08,719 --> 02:38:11,079
and Protestants when they hear that, they kind of just

2578
02:38:11,719 --> 02:38:13,280
put their own ideology into that.

2579
02:38:14,040 --> 02:38:16,399
Speaker 1: Correct And also you'll note when you read through the

2580
02:38:16,440 --> 02:38:18,600
Palma Zanski, there will be a section where they cite

2581
02:38:18,600 --> 02:38:21,600
the Byzantine Synod that I was referring to, where it

2582
02:38:21,680 --> 02:38:25,680
talks about how well we could what creature could pay

2583
02:38:25,760 --> 02:38:28,879
off God even if we did have a debt model. Here,

2584
02:38:30,239 --> 02:38:34,639
I mean, you can't pay God with a human body

2585
02:38:34,799 --> 02:38:36,040
or with a bull or a goat.

2586
02:38:37,719 --> 02:38:41,639
Speaker 44: So even the Old Testament sacrifices weren't a payment directly,

2587
02:38:41,719 --> 02:38:43,399
and that all does that in Romans, I.

2588
02:38:43,440 --> 02:38:46,559
Speaker 1: Mean in Hebrews. Yeah, the blood of goats and bulls

2589
02:38:46,600 --> 02:38:50,200
cannot affect the forgiveness of sense. Okay, well, why can

2590
02:38:50,319 --> 02:38:53,079
the blood of the God Man do it? Because of

2591
02:38:53,680 --> 02:38:58,559
the actual metaphysical change that we experience through the Eucharist.

2592
02:39:00,360 --> 02:39:02,760
Speaker 44: And if this is too much, just let me know.

2593
02:39:02,840 --> 02:39:05,879
But what was then the point of those Old Testament sacrifices.

2594
02:39:06,239 --> 02:39:10,159
Speaker 1: No, they all do point to Christ's work, Okay, okay,

2595
02:39:10,200 --> 02:39:12,840
but the point is that neither the animals nor the

2596
02:39:12,959 --> 02:39:17,639
human body of Christ pays off God. You can't pay

2597
02:39:17,719 --> 02:39:21,399
off God. So what I'm saying is that the payment

2598
02:39:21,520 --> 02:39:28,040
debt model is not the exhaustive model of redemption. Okay,

2599
02:39:28,159 --> 02:39:31,920
there's no and that's why God's infinite. So look, the

2600
02:39:32,000 --> 02:39:34,760
reason they argue that is because God is infinite and perfect.

2601
02:39:36,280 --> 02:39:41,000
He doesn't need anything, so there's no need to pay

2602
02:39:41,120 --> 02:39:43,719
him off. That's why it wouldn't make sense exactly. That's

2603
02:39:43,719 --> 02:39:46,520
why it's an offering of love, and it's a demonstration

2604
02:39:46,639 --> 02:39:50,399
of divine love, not the father damning the son like

2605
02:39:50,520 --> 02:39:51,239
p s Asis.

2606
02:39:52,280 --> 02:39:54,559
Speaker 44: Yeah, and that was one thing that you know, had

2607
02:39:55,159 --> 02:39:56,920
strayed me away from the church for a long time,

2608
02:39:57,040 --> 02:40:00,479
was I didn't understand why God would require a sacrifice,

2609
02:40:00,559 --> 02:40:01,520
much less of his own son.

2610
02:40:01,959 --> 02:40:05,079
Speaker 1: And it says this in the book, it's atheism. It's

2611
02:40:05,120 --> 02:40:06,719
like it would it would make me an atheist too.

2612
02:40:07,440 --> 02:40:10,120
Speaker 44: Yeah, it's it's and it's like it's almost like paganism, you.

2613
02:40:10,159 --> 02:40:13,920
Speaker 1: Know, it is like requiring blood sacrifice. Yeah. Yeah.

2614
02:40:14,000 --> 02:40:15,840
Speaker 44: And when he wouldn't even accept it, says this in

2615
02:40:15,879 --> 02:40:17,719
the Palm's ansky book. But when he wouldn't even accept

2616
02:40:17,799 --> 02:40:22,280
Isaac from uh Abraham, I'm sorry, when he wouldn't accept

2617
02:40:22,680 --> 02:40:25,120
his son from him, why would he then accept you know,

2618
02:40:25,200 --> 02:40:26,239
that's a good point.

2619
02:40:26,360 --> 02:40:29,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, good point.

2620
02:40:29,360 --> 02:40:32,079
Speaker 44: But okay, but thank you, Jay, I appreciate great questions.

2621
02:40:34,600 --> 02:40:36,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Actually, that Byzantine Sonat was a huge one for

2622
02:40:36,879 --> 02:40:41,159
me and it. Also it's like literally the only like

2623
02:40:41,239 --> 02:40:44,639
it's almost like the Orthodox Church in that synod refuted

2624
02:40:44,719 --> 02:40:59,639
p s A like centuries before PSA existed. Slava, Hello, yeah, oh, hey, j.

2625
02:41:01,280 --> 02:41:02,840
Speaker 45: I just didn't want to trupt you if you're still

2626
02:41:02,879 --> 02:41:06,600
talking anyway, I was just gonna ask you what I've

2627
02:41:06,760 --> 02:41:10,159
discussed with the Protestant. He's mentioned something and I wanted

2628
02:41:10,159 --> 02:41:12,799
to know how you would respond. He brought up the

2629
02:41:13,000 --> 02:41:19,559
urgy in the in the liturgy. Yeah, he brought up

2630
02:41:19,680 --> 02:41:23,840
theorgy like th e u r g y is the liturgy,

2631
02:41:23,959 --> 02:41:26,879
And I just wanted to know he was using it

2632
02:41:27,360 --> 02:41:30,200
in an accusatory sense, essentially saying like, oh, this is

2633
02:41:30,319 --> 02:41:32,440
borrowed from pagan practices.

2634
02:41:33,559 --> 02:41:36,200
Speaker 1: How you respond? That's the word concept fallacy, right, So

2635
02:41:36,280 --> 02:41:42,079
just because Neoplatonic magicians use the term, uh, theurgy or

2636
02:41:42,479 --> 02:41:46,000
like we talk about saying Gregory the Fama turgis the miracle,

2637
02:41:46,079 --> 02:41:49,319
wonder worker, he's just just engaging in a word concept

2638
02:41:49,360 --> 02:41:51,920
fallacy that therefore must mean ritual magic.

2639
02:41:53,280 --> 02:41:55,639
Speaker 45: Right Yeah, Like if someone does something doesn't make it

2640
02:41:55,680 --> 02:41:59,959
automatically bad. So, uh is it just a pretty much

2641
02:42:00,079 --> 02:42:04,479
the Orthodox except that, yeah, we are participating in theorgy

2642
02:42:04,639 --> 02:42:06,520
Is that how it would be stated or I don't

2643
02:42:06,559 --> 02:42:11,000
want to misstate the Orthodox position on that. Is it

2644
02:42:11,079 --> 02:42:13,159
just yeah, we accept theurgy as you can do it

2645
02:42:13,200 --> 02:42:14,239
in a Christian sense too.

2646
02:42:14,440 --> 02:42:17,399
Speaker 1: Is that how you ADVERG? I mean, the terminology might

2647
02:42:17,440 --> 02:42:19,680
have been used at some point by a church father,

2648
02:42:19,799 --> 02:42:22,840
but it's not that common and it might lead to

2649
02:42:23,040 --> 02:42:27,200
a lot of confusion. So I mean it might give

2650
02:42:27,200 --> 02:42:30,479
the people impression that we're trying to be neoplatonic magicians,

2651
02:42:30,719 --> 02:42:34,760
you know, working divine workings or something. So it's just

2652
02:42:34,879 --> 02:42:37,959
literally just it's just a word that is depend upon

2653
02:42:38,000 --> 02:42:38,559
the context.

2654
02:42:39,399 --> 02:42:41,600
Speaker 29: By the way, I think that you shared that example.

2655
02:42:42,440 --> 02:42:45,879
We were just doing fallacies in logic class and I

2656
02:42:45,959 --> 02:42:49,360
was trying to think of example of variouseing examples of

2657
02:42:49,399 --> 02:42:53,200
post hawk ergo propter hawk. That would be one that

2658
02:42:54,600 --> 02:42:58,040
simply because something was prior in time that therefore it's

2659
02:42:58,120 --> 02:43:02,879
the cause the other thing. So yeah, you can find

2660
02:43:02,959 --> 02:43:09,120
elements or words and a religion prior to the establishment

2661
02:43:09,159 --> 02:43:11,319
of the church in thirty three a G doesn't mean

2662
02:43:11,399 --> 02:43:14,520
that it's the cause of that, so thank you.

2663
02:43:16,799 --> 02:43:17,040
Speaker 10: Cool.

2664
02:43:17,159 --> 02:43:20,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of the like zeitgeist level stuff

2665
02:43:20,639 --> 02:43:23,360
is what Father Deacon's talking about they use the post

2666
02:43:23,399 --> 02:43:25,079
hoc ergo propter hawk fallacy.

2667
02:43:26,760 --> 02:43:28,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, I totally agree with that.

2668
02:43:28,360 --> 02:43:30,319
Speaker 45: I think that's what came to my mind too. I

2669
02:43:30,440 --> 02:43:33,159
just wanted to make sure and then I had one

2670
02:43:33,280 --> 02:43:37,399
more question, but it would is kind of escaping me

2671
02:43:37,520 --> 02:43:39,879
now someone someone who brought up the atonement.

2672
02:43:40,479 --> 02:43:41,280
Speaker 31: I guess one thing.

2673
02:43:41,280 --> 02:43:43,079
Speaker 45: I would just wanted to thank you for bringing up

2674
02:43:43,120 --> 02:43:46,319
this stuff about how you know, how if you have

2675
02:43:46,479 --> 02:43:50,760
Orthodox Christianity you maintain the rituals. And when I was

2676
02:43:51,319 --> 02:43:54,280
I didn't realize how important that was until I started

2677
02:43:54,319 --> 02:43:57,639
looking into it further. And uh, yeah, I totally agree

2678
02:43:57,680 --> 02:44:00,239
with you when you say, like Christian zion Is is

2679
02:44:00,280 --> 02:44:02,879
basically just like trying to fill a gap that if

2680
02:44:02,920 --> 02:44:06,280
you don't have any kind of connection to history, then

2681
02:44:06,680 --> 02:44:09,520
you're longing for that. But if you understand that the

2682
02:44:09,639 --> 02:44:13,200
Church is the true Israel and that those promises are

2683
02:44:13,280 --> 02:44:17,760
now transferred onto Christians at least in large part, you

2684
02:44:17,840 --> 02:44:20,479
know most of those promises and that's just biblical. I've

2685
02:44:20,559 --> 02:44:22,920
convinced quite a few people just pointing that out, and

2686
02:44:23,239 --> 02:44:25,239
it's kind of it's kind of hard for them to

2687
02:44:25,360 --> 02:44:29,440
disagree because it is so abundantly clear from scripture, So

2688
02:44:29,680 --> 02:44:32,840
I think that's a pretty easy thing to argue with people.

2689
02:44:33,799 --> 02:44:35,360
Speaker 31: Lastly, I was just on the atonement thing.

2690
02:44:35,879 --> 02:44:37,639
Speaker 45: I don't know if you've heard of need good dot net,

2691
02:44:38,120 --> 02:44:42,360
but he has a pretty like very basic tier understanding

2692
02:44:42,440 --> 02:44:45,719
of the atonement and the penal substitutionary atonement center.

2693
02:44:45,959 --> 02:44:48,399
Speaker 1: I'm aware of them. He debated Kyle. I know who

2694
02:44:48,399 --> 02:44:50,319
he is. Oh, yeah, that's right.

2695
02:44:50,479 --> 02:44:52,760
Speaker 45: Yeah, I thought, I mean, I know, yeah, however you

2696
02:44:52,799 --> 02:44:54,719
feel about doing debates now, but I thought it would

2697
02:44:54,719 --> 02:44:56,559
be interesting, so I thought i'd throw that out thet.

2698
02:44:56,680 --> 02:44:58,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if I would, I might not

2699
02:44:58,840 --> 02:44:59,840
be able to hold my t.

2700
02:45:00,200 --> 02:45:04,479
Speaker 45: Or was that guy I kind of did the same Yeah,

2701
02:45:04,719 --> 02:45:06,760
I kind of did the same thing. And it's yeah,

2702
02:45:06,760 --> 02:45:09,000
it's it's kind of hard to because I feel like

2703
02:45:09,079 --> 02:45:11,799
it is a very like I don't know.

2704
02:45:11,959 --> 02:45:13,520
Speaker 31: I think he has one goal.

2705
02:45:13,399 --> 02:45:15,280
Speaker 45: Which is probably just to talk to people have no

2706
02:45:15,399 --> 02:45:19,959
idea about like Christianity, and you know they kind of well,

2707
02:45:20,040 --> 02:45:22,440
most people he reaches out like they don't have any

2708
02:45:22,559 --> 02:45:23,840
experience with Christianity.

2709
02:45:23,920 --> 02:45:26,040
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like the debate with like Bryson

2710
02:45:26,200 --> 02:45:28,159
or that guy a couple of nights ago, Like if

2711
02:45:28,239 --> 02:45:31,399
somebody is like really low tier. It's very difficult to

2712
02:45:32,920 --> 02:45:35,639
not kind of get frustrated when they don't know basic things,

2713
02:45:36,079 --> 02:45:38,319
and they're usually those people are like super arrogant and

2714
02:45:38,360 --> 02:45:39,000
self assured.

2715
02:45:40,280 --> 02:45:40,799
Speaker 31: Yeah it is.

2716
02:45:40,959 --> 02:45:43,440
Speaker 45: It does come across as very prideful a lot of times.

2717
02:45:43,520 --> 02:45:45,799
It's kind of hard to like hold back from going

2718
02:45:45,879 --> 02:45:47,639
in on that. But yeah, I get what you're saying anyway,

2719
02:45:47,680 --> 02:45:48,440
that's all I got thinks.

2720
02:45:48,760 --> 02:45:53,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's the same kind of with All

2721
02:45:53,360 --> 02:45:55,239
brackt Like, I don't know that I'll be able to

2722
02:45:55,399 --> 02:45:59,000
like not just start busting on him and making fun

2723
02:45:59,040 --> 02:46:01,159
of him, and he would do and all the Catholics

2724
02:46:01,200 --> 02:46:04,000
to do is play victim. Oh look at her, he

2725
02:46:04,120 --> 02:46:06,399
can't he can't even handle it. Look at he lose it,

2726
02:46:06,479 --> 02:46:09,280
so you know, and they would try, of course everything

2727
02:46:09,319 --> 02:46:14,600
to try to get me bum fuzzled. So I think

2728
02:46:14,639 --> 02:46:19,079
if you give all Bricked enough time, he'll fizzle out

2729
02:46:19,120 --> 02:46:22,680
and destroy himself, just like Lofton has basically done. Because

2730
02:46:22,719 --> 02:46:26,840
there's such nasty, slimy people, like they eventually run everybody off.

2731
02:46:27,399 --> 02:46:31,200
So so you know, Lofton is Loston's worst enemy, and

2732
02:46:32,200 --> 02:46:35,879
I just think All Brick's worse than Loston, so taking

2733
02:46:35,920 --> 02:46:57,600
time bombs bone art, I mean, can you hear me? Yeah?

2734
02:46:59,479 --> 02:46:59,799
All right.

2735
02:47:00,079 --> 02:47:03,559
Speaker 46: I just wanted to say that the Evangelicals are like

2736
02:47:03,639 --> 02:47:08,600
the Jesuits. They're ungodly people. The Catholics don't know history correctly,

2737
02:47:09,719 --> 02:47:14,000
so that's relevant. And the Protestants actually had more slaves

2738
02:47:14,120 --> 02:47:17,440
than the Jews had slaves. That's really all I wanted

2739
02:47:17,479 --> 02:47:19,719
to say. Because you don't know what a druid is either.

2740
02:47:21,319 --> 02:47:24,799
A druid, Yeah, would you like to talk about that?

2741
02:47:26,920 --> 02:47:29,879
Speaker 1: I know what Druidism is. I'm not an expert on it,

2742
02:47:29,959 --> 02:47:32,559
but I'm familiar with the history of Druidism. It's not

2743
02:47:32,680 --> 02:47:37,079
an ism, but yeah, I mean it's commonly referred to

2744
02:47:37,159 --> 02:47:38,559
that as that in the literature.

2745
02:47:40,360 --> 02:48:06,200
Speaker 46: It depends who wrote that literature. Okay, that's all you

2746
02:48:06,319 --> 02:49:06,879
have to say. Well, I guess that's all folks. I

2747
02:49:06,959 --> 02:49:28,360
don't know what you say either. I can't hear a word.

2748
02:49:28,239 --> 02:49:29,319
Speaker 42: That Jay is speaking.

2749
02:49:34,479 --> 02:49:46,600
Speaker 1: I have zero sound. Hello.

2750
02:49:51,360 --> 02:50:03,319
Speaker 46: It says that there's connection issues with j Did you

2751
02:50:03,479 --> 02:50:05,440
wrap your device in tinfoil