WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.080 When you figure out how to work with Blackloor, you 2 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:05.599 can probably work with anybody else. And then eventually in 3 00:00:05.639 --> 00:00:09.359 March this year, we basically unbailed the project. A couple 4 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:11.560 of things. One is the Tognized money market fund that 5 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:14.880 we launched, which has very quickly become the largest in 6 00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:17.440 the world ever, the fastest growing exes. 7 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:21.559 It's a huge success. 8 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:27.320 This content is brought to you by bitco, which is 9 00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:30.640 one of the top crypto custodians in the crypto industry. 10 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:34.200 Bitco works with many big companies and brands such as 11 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:39.399 Pantera Capital, Bitstamp, and bitcoin Ira. Nike also selected Bitco 12 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:43.520 to power its wallets for its NFTs and bitco has 13 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:47.200 many great services such as hot wallets, custodial wallets, self 14 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:52.159 managed cold wallets, and NFT wallets. Many institutions trust bitgo 15 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:56.359 with its top level security and incredible services such as 16 00:00:56.359 --> 00:00:59.119 being able to deploy your capital while it's in custody, 17 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:03.240 which includes lending, borrowing, tradings, taking DeFi access, and more. 18 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:06.000 If you'd like to learn more about bitco, please visit 19 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:09.040 bitgo dot com link in the description. Welcome into the 20 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:12.000 Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward and with 21 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.480 me is Carlos Domingo, who's the co founder and CEO 22 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:18.319 at Securities. Carlos, great to have you on. 23 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:21.079 Thanks Tony for I'm here, very very glad to be 24 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:21.959 here with you guys. 25 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:25.200 Yeah, Carlos, I'm really excited to speak with you. Tokenization 26 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.359 has been on the adoption of tokenization has been on 27 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:32.079 the rise, and Securitize is I think leading that charge. 28 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:35.120 And I've known of Securities since back in twenty eighteen. 29 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:37.319 So I'm really excited to have you on and I 30 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:39.680 have a lot of questions for you. But let's start 31 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:42.599 with your background, where you're from and what's your professional background. 32 00:01:43.159 --> 00:01:46.840 I'm originally from Barcelona, from Spain, and that's where I 33 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:49.640 was born and recently until I was twenty one years old, 34 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:53.400 and my background is technology. I have a piece in 35 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.079 computer science, but then I also started involving the kind 36 00:01:57.079 --> 00:01:59.079 of like the intersection of business and technology most of 37 00:01:59.120 --> 00:01:59.560 my career. 38 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:03.680 I also noticed you authored two books. Tell us about that. 39 00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:06.840 I did so. The first book was many years ago, 40 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:08.280 it's probably more than ten years ago. 41 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:10.840 At that time, I was the head of R and 42 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:13.520 DN innovation for a company called Telefonica, which is a 43 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:19.280 very large telecommunications company, and I got really into try 44 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:21.960 to understand why some companies innovate and some mothers don't, 45 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:26.039 because telcods are not particularly famous for being innovative. And 46 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:28.479 then over a book called The Journey of Innovation, which 47 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:30.439 is kind of like a compendium of all the different 48 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:34.319 innovation technologies that companies use depending on the stage where 49 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:37.639 they are to do, you know, discovery and then commercialization, 50 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:40.319 et cetera, which is basically a summary of I don't know, 51 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:42.800 like ten or aut of fifteen books on innovation that 52 00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:45.879 I really like that they are you know, explained as 53 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.159 a journey through the whole process of innovation from like 54 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:51.520 the research until commercialization. I was the first one, and 55 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:54.719 then the second one was in twenty sixteen when I 56 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:58.000 when I discovered crypto, I got fascinated about it, and 57 00:02:58.039 --> 00:02:59.719 there were very few books about crypto at that time. 58 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:02.759 Now like a million, but twenty sixteen was very early days, 59 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:05.560 and in particular, there was none in the Spanish language. 60 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:08.360 There were very few that were English books that were 61 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:11.400 translated into Spanish. So I approached the editor of my 62 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:14.400 previous book, which you know, sold quite well. So I 63 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.800 don't know, like why did I grab a book about crypto, 64 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:19.039 so I wrote it in twenty seventeen. He goes to 65 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:22.080 go publish in twenty seventeen before the first would run. 66 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:24.240 So it's very interesting because I was kind of like 67 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:26.439 pitching crypto and bitcoin, and there was not a lot 68 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:28.680 of things like DeFi, NFTs, none of those things existed 69 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.599 back then. And I remember like how skeptical people were 70 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:34.919 about crypto when I was like going doing the tour 71 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:38.639 books and in the book in Spain, etcetera. People didn't 72 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:40.759 understand anything about it. They didn't know anything about it, 73 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:43.639 they didn't think it's like a real thing. So it 74 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:45.919 was very interesting, and it also helped me kind of 75 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:47.599 get deeper into the space because I had to do 76 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:49.919 a lot of research about the first let's say ten 77 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.319 years of crypto since bit kind of started until twenty 78 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:54.960 seventeen when it got published. 79 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:59.120 Now you mentioned you discovered crypto or bigcoin in twenty sixteen. 80 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.199 How did you learn about it? Did a friend tell 81 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:03.000 you about it? Did you read about it on a forum? 82 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:09.240 That's interesting, so twenty fourteen even earlier, Yeah, twenty thirteen fourteen, 83 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:11.800 that's the first time I heard about bitcoin. When I 84 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:13.840 was a Telephonica because I was managing R and D 85 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.279 and innovation. We used to do something called the Disruptive Council, 86 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:19.639 where we will invite people to tell us about disruptive 87 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.160 new things happening in the world to stay up with 88 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:24.720 the trends. And then there was a guy from Silicon Balley, 89 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.680 Jeff Clavier, who came and talked to us about bitcoin. 90 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:29.920 And I didn't pay much attention, just to be fair 91 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:32.600 with like a lot of people heard forever. Then got 92 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:34.319 into it, like I was like, what is this? Like, 93 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:37.680 I didn't give much importance. And then then he started 94 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:40.920 telling us the year after about blockchain as supposed to 95 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:44.920 crypto bitcoin. How that was like shifting on the silicon body. 96 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:48.639 That's want A lot of these blockchain enterprise blockchain companies 97 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:52.480 came up in twenty fifteen sixteen, But really when I 98 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:54.439 got like the bag and I got really into the 99 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.800 space was in twenty sixteen that's one of Thereum launched. 100 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:02.319 And then and I heard from from a friend that 101 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:05.680 was one of the first uh you know, I CIOs 102 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:08.560 that he was launching a token, the Basic Attention token 103 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:13.199 from Brave so and that's that's when I really got 104 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:16.959 into the space. Uh, and started like investing in icios, 105 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.839 learning the technology and then decided to basically launch you know, 106 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:23.480 atorganized fund first and then. 107 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:28.040 Securitized that friend was that brandan Ike. That's Brandon I am. 108 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:33.079 So Brendan was the CEO of Firefox and then became 109 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:34.959 the CEO for a short period of time. And at 110 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:37.439 that time I was working in telecommunications, so we did 111 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:41.360 the project together to build a mobile operating system based 112 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:43.839 on HTML five. Wanted to use web technologies as they 113 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:47.519 frontend for a mobile phone. So Brendan and I, you know, 114 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.680 spent a lot of time together. This was really pretty crypto, 115 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.560 and then he pivoted to crypto very early on, like 116 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:56.759 even before the Theorem launch. He was he had the 117 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:00.639 idea about the browser with the wallet to be able 118 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:04.439 to pay for your attention and receive rewards, and started 119 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:07.120 with big company. Didn't work because it is not suitable 120 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:08.920 for that. And then when the third launch and he 121 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.560 could create his own let's say currency for doing that process, 122 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:15.040 that's when when the project really took off. 123 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:18.680 So yeah, I had Brian on the podcast years ago, 124 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:21.759 and I think he's also the co creator of JavaScript 125 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:22.120 of MAM. 126 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:26.480 He's one of the smartest persons I've ever met. Yeah, 127 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:28.680 as a legend in Silicon Valley. 128 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.800 It's amazing. And you're both here building in Web three. 129 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:35.319 So there's a lot of people if you think about it. 130 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:38.680 I saw that you had Mike Belch recently from Bidgo. 131 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:42.120 He also comes from you know, a Web two and 132 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:43.879 did a lot of work, and he was actually a 133 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:46.800 Netscape and then Google. If you look at Jeremy Alair, 134 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:50.480 so I knew who he was way before crypto because 135 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:53.199 you're doing web streaming what I was Intel COO. So 136 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:55.639 there's a lot of you know, especially people of our 137 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:57.879 age which are like like the older generation of the 138 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:02.279 crypto people. We all come from web to technology backgrounds 139 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:03.279 and got into crypto layer. 140 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:07.319 Yeah, it's fascinating. I was thinking about that not too 141 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:10.959 long ago, about the number of entrepreneurs and builders who 142 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:13.000 were in Web one point zero and Web two and 143 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:15.639 now they're hearing Web three and it's fascinating. And I 144 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:17.879 tried to share that as an example to people who 145 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:21.360 still don't understand crypto, like this is the next layer 146 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:24.000 on top of the Internet. And the folks who were 147 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:26.800 at Netscape and you know, marking treason and all these guys, 148 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:28.720 they're here. They're here building. 149 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:31.639 Correct, because it's you know, if you think about what 150 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:35.600 was missing on the first Internet layer, there were two things, right. 151 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:38.920 One was a way to transfer value because you could 152 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:43.800 transfer you know, boys, communication, messaging, content, et cetera. But 153 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:46.399 there was not a layer that allows you to transvalue. 154 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:47.920 And if you think about the Internet, the Internet is 155 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.360 a decentralized network, right, like that's people was designed to 156 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:55.079 be decentralized by DARPA, the Department of Defense Agency, precisely 157 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:57.680 to be a network that is very resilient, right that 158 00:07:57.759 --> 00:07:59.279 you can all go down in case of an attack. 159 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:01.040 So if you think about what a blockchain is, it's 160 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:04.160 just basically a decentralized network that is very resilient, right, 161 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:06.399 and it's cryptographically secure, so you can use it to 162 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:11.199 transfer things that represent value. So that's kind of like 163 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.879 the missing layer on top of the Internet. I think 164 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:15.920 the other interesting thing of how crypto has developed as 165 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:19.560 opposed to the Internet is how people are monetizing the 166 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:23.079 protocol as opposed to the Internet, that the application layer 167 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:26.399 accrue all the value, so that the facebooks and the 168 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.040 you know, the Googles of the world, as oppose in 169 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.240 crypto orre the infrastructure layer. Because of the ability to 170 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:35.159 issue a token, then they accrue a lot of value. 171 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:37.559 But yeah, it's a lot of similarities. 172 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:40.279 Yeah for sure. So do you feel that model is 173 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:43.120 now flipped on its head to your point, Facebook collects 174 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.480 all the monetization benefits, right, but the users they don't 175 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:49.360 get anything unless you you know, buy the stock. But 176 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:54.039 rather now you can be kind of an equity holder 177 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:56.960 by having the token, you can have governance, say and 178 00:08:57.159 --> 00:09:00.919 on the network and be more of have more skin 179 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:04.120 in the game versus Facebook is just monetizing your activity. 180 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:06.799 We shouldn't sayquit the whole lot. Otherwise this this is 181 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:09.600 going to come and say those stop and securities that's 182 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:12.360 what they are. They are to some extent, you know, 183 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:14.639 I know there's a very controversial argument, but I agree 184 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:15.840 with you. Like at the end of the day, they 185 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:19.320 give you economic exposure on the success of the project, right, 186 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:22.120 which is what securities are anyway. So that's why there 187 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.559 is this controversy about whether the stock and sarch securities 188 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:25.919 or not. But yeah, I agree with you that they 189 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:28.799 give you an option to participate. And this is why 190 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:31.919 you know there is this huge retail following in crypto 191 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:34.879 that maybe was not existing in other industries because of 192 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:38.559 the ability to participate and get upside if a project 193 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:39.120 does well. 194 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:43.200 Yeah, I need to rephrase or update my verbiage I 195 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.919 should say, but you know, you get to participate and 196 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:47.519 all right. 197 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:49.759 But by the way, this is the whole controversial about 198 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:51.639 whether the can say securities or not that because you 199 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:54.679 do actually get a commercial benefit out of it, right, 200 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.039 So so arguably that's what securities are supposed to be, 201 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.279 or investment contracts, and there's another argument that they're not 202 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:04.519 because of other reasons. So but yeah, that's that's preciically 203 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:07.039 the the conundrum there for sure. 204 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:11.240 So let's talk about securitizes. Tell us about securities. How 205 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.519 did the idea come about to start this company and 206 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:14.159 what you guys do? 207 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:17.279 It came out of the ICO time. 208 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:21.320 So when icios started to happen, and I remember that time, 209 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.919 it was brave, It was argon with this uh you know, 210 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:28.000 the centralized governance thing that I also knew the founder 211 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:31.519 who else it was Bangkor, which was kind of like 212 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:33.919 the predecessor of UNISWAP. And there was like many of 213 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:36.919 these icos that I was, you know, fascinated about the products, 214 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:39.000 but at the same time being able to participate, as 215 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:41.720 you said in the product right as an investor, being 216 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:45.679 able to invest and receive something that would represent uh 217 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.159 so well correlate let's say, in value with the sexcess 218 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:51.799 of the project. So and uh you know, because I 219 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:56.440 come from tech, I've always been investing on the startups, investing, 220 00:10:57.080 --> 00:11:00.399 but with the with the Web one point the companies 221 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:02.120 went public very early, so it was very easy to 222 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:04.480 invest in public stocks, but then that kind of disappeared, 223 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:07.159 so it was almost impossible to invest on the stock 224 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:10.120 of a company unless you invest when they're private, or 225 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:13.279 you had to invest in vcs. And then those processes 226 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:17.480 of investing in on private shares, whether private shares or vcs, 227 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:20.519 are very cumbersome. It's very difficult to follow to do 228 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:24.159 the investment, and then they're very liquid, so you don't 229 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:26.120 know when you don't have a market to sell them. 230 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:26.320 Right. 231 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:31.480 So kind of Web one point zero IPOs were super early, 232 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:33.840 so that kind of solve that problem, make it easy 233 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:36.960 to invest and make them liquid. Then Web two that disappear, 234 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:39.080 and then Web three that kind of came back with 235 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:41.960 the token right, make it very easy to invest and 236 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:43.720 make it liquid. Because a lot of these stockings were 237 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:46.919 liquid right after and they had projects like bank or 238 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:49.080 which we look at it very very closely at the beginning, 239 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:51.759 as I mentioned, is the predecessor of unit in terms 240 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:56.080 of automated market making. That could create liquidity automatically right 241 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.320 without centralized this change. So I thought it was fascinating, 242 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:02.399 and then my observation was very naive, thinking why not 243 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:05.639 apply this to securities? Right, so you have equity, you 244 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:08.759 have lp inches of bcs, et cetera. Those are things 245 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.039 that are difficult to invest and that are I liquid. 246 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:13.240 So if you could take this technology and apply there, 247 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:17.559 then you can open up a huge market. What I 248 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:20.879 didn't know, because my background is not you know, legal 249 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.559 or regulation or finance, is how complex the whole regulatory 250 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:28.000 environment of doing that legally is. Right, of course, a 251 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.159 lot of people did it illegally from the beginning wanted 252 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:32.720 to do it legally, but the whole idea was to 253 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:37.159 apply the ICO model to securities. And then, of course, 254 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:40.120 as I mentioned, we were very naive thinking this is 255 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:42.279 a technology problem, and then realize it's not just a 256 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.759 technology problem, it's a regulatory problem. So I think that 257 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:47.960 this is one of the reasons why in the twenty 258 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.279 eighteen times when you guys met us for the first time, 259 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:54.039 things didn't take off, right because of all the regulatory complexity, 260 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.440 licenses that you need to do things in a legal way, 261 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:58.840 et cetera. But that was kind of like the genesis 262 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:03.759 of of securities, right. Take the ICO model and try 263 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:06.120 to apply it as closely as possible to things that 264 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:07.120 are regulated. 265 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:13.120 And that has evolved to tokenization and the ability to 266 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.759 tokenize many different things. So I love to get your 267 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:21.200 outlook on tokenization. You know, there's things I've thought of, like, okay, 268 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:24.799 if athletes tokenize themselves or their contracts, or I, as 269 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:28.799 an entrepreneur tokenize myself, what is your outlook and let's 270 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.120 cover like the full gambit, you know, whether it's my 271 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.399 house myself or black rock building and tokenizing a fund 272 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:36.080 and things like that. 273 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:40.519 So first, tokenization is exactly what we did at the beginning, right. 274 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.200 So when I say securities, if you think about the 275 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.919 process of tokenization is basically you take an asset whatever 276 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:49.440 the act is. It could be treasury is, it could 277 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:53.039 be the contract of an athlete that you mentioned. We 278 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:55.320 actually did a project with an MBA player about that 279 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:59.399 because Stephen the Winded many years ago. Then it could 280 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.320 be you know, a building, it could be whatever. For 281 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:04.480 the most part, like you issue a token that gives 282 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:07.559 you an economic interest in the underlying asset that and 283 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:09.559 that token is either a security or you have to 284 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.360 securitize the asset through a traditional securitization process, which is 285 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:17.200 basically put it in some sort of legal or rapper 286 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.440 and then give fractional ownership to this. Right, that's why 287 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:22.159 we call securities right the way, like most people don't 288 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:26.759 understand what we call securitize because toganization is basically securitization 289 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:29.320 on asteroids, because it's like a very good way to 290 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.320 do it. So to organization is what we've been doing 291 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:35.240 since the beginning. I think that the problem is that 292 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:39.080 and then obviously we've we've learned this over the years, 293 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:42.200 is that you think that this applies to anything. Right, 294 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.360 you could talk because theoretically you could tognize anything you want. 295 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.240 And there's all these people over the years have been 296 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.919 saying everything will be tokenized, or the assets in the world, 297 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.120 the real estate, or the contracts of the athletes and 298 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:55.799 things like that, and the reality is that you know. 299 00:14:56.879 --> 00:14:57.720 The token itself. 300 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:00.919 Tochanization itself doesn't necessarily addvalue unless there's all the things 301 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:04.840 that come along, right that you make it easier to purchase, 302 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:08.159 which sometimes is a regulatory problem, not necessarily a technology problem. 303 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:12.879 You make it somewhat liquid, they're talking, that's something that 304 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:15.919 the non organized version doesn't do, which makes it more valuable, 305 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.720 like you know, easy to trade or to move around, 306 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:20.879 peer to peer, et cetera. And a lot of these 307 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.840 early organization projects, we're not doing anything. You're just basically 308 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.639 putting a token und the blockchain and that's it. So 309 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:30.799 I think that's why it didn't take off. My view 310 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:34.080 today is a bit different. I think that all these 311 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.279 long tail toganization projects, like I said, organizing the contract 312 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:41.440 of an mb athlete what happened, but will happen much 313 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:44.639 farther down the road. And I think that today if 314 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:47.240 you think about what has really taken off is toganization 315 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:51.000 of dollars, right, that's the stable coins. And then the 316 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:53.960 next thing which is adjacent to it that is taking 317 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:57.120 off now is the organization of treasures, right because these 318 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:00.080 are like dollars but with a yield, but almost so 319 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:02.639 safe as a dollar. And then and then you're going 320 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:05.600 to go down that way, right like treasures will continue going, 321 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:07.879 and then you will have things adjacent to treasuries, could 322 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:11.919 be commercial paper, could be other you know, private credit, 323 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:14.200 et cetera. And then eventually you will get to this 324 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:17.919 long tail of tokenized assets that will be tradeable and 325 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:18.799 will be very efficient. 326 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:20.399 But I think we're still far away from from that 327 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:22.399 situation now. 328 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.480 In regards to black Rock, you guys have a partnership 329 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:29.159 with the Biddle and creating the Biddle Fund, which just 330 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.879 five hundred million dollar milestone. Tell us about how that 331 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.600 partnership came about and the fund and how the performance 332 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:36.960 so far. 333 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:42.679 So we've talked to black Rock since I think twenty 334 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.919 nineteen when when Roy Mitnick joined the company is the 335 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:49.480 head of Digital Asset now and then we've been on 336 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:52.200 and off talking to them about, you know, things that 337 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.159 we could do together until around a year and a 338 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:57.840 half ago. And this is when when Larry thing More 339 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.639 publicly was saying that you know, talken is was the 340 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.720 future of asset management because he sat it's a very 341 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:07.599 efficient way of managing assets and provided more efficiency, et cetera. 342 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:09.880 And then we kind of restart the conversations with them 343 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:13.279 about doing something together, and then of course we work 344 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:16.640 with them behind the scenes for a long time. You know, 345 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:20.160 getting to work with black Rock was probably a bigger 346 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:25.880 challenge that we expected initially in terms of complying with 347 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:31.680 all their you know, regulatory compliance. You know, it's a 348 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:34.359 very big asset manager, and it's very strict in some things, 349 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:37.440 which you know is a good thing, right because you 350 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:39.839 when you figure out how to work with Blackglog, you 351 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:43.240 can probably work with anybody else. And then eventually in 352 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:47.119 March this year, we basically unveiled the project. A couple 353 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:49.279 of things. One is the Tokenice money market fund that 354 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.599 we've launched, which has very quickly become the largest in 355 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:55.440 the world ever, the fastest growing et cetera. Is a 356 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:59.480 huge success. And then the second thing was an estrategic 357 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:02.440 investment of black Rock in our company, and then Joseph 358 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:07.839 Shalom taking a board seat, and you know, continue working 359 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:10.759 closely with them on enabling more functionality Forbiddle for the 360 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.079 first first, because we think, I think we're just scratching 361 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.359 the surface, and then doing other projects in the future 362 00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:16.640 as well. 363 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:21.480 Now I know some people who are new to crypto, 364 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:25.400 blockchain and tokenization are going to say, so what so, okay, 365 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:30.279 black rock tokenized. What are some of the benefits I 366 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:35.480 guess the tangible benefits that maybe the newbie user can 367 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:39.160 relate to. Is it faster, is it twenty four to 368 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:41.640 seven trading? What are some of the benefits. 369 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:45.839 So the benefits of the organization depends on on the asset. Right, 370 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:49.640 some assets, some tognized assets have this feature that makes 371 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:51.920 them more useful for some of these don't. But overall, 372 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:55.559 you know, what people need to understand is when you 373 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.400 when you buy or when you issue securities, you need 374 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.279 to represent the ownership somewhere. You need a ledger, right, 375 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.519 So that's the premise. You need to have a ledger 376 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.519 that you represent the ownership of the asset, and then 377 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:10.160 you could use any ledger. But blocking happens to be 378 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:17.160 a very good ledger that is publicly available. Is you know, decentralized, 379 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.440 is cryptographically secure, and that has if you think about 380 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.160 the origin of blockchain, is bitcoin right, which was precidesally 381 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:27.480 is a ledger designed to record ownership of an asset 382 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:29.559 and being able to transfer the ownership of the asset 383 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.160 in a decentralized way in a very safe way. Right, 384 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.240 So the same thing applies to security. Securities need to 385 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:40.880 be represented somewhere. Today, many securities are represented in inefficient 386 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:45.319 ledgers or in some cases that have electronic ledgers, they 387 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.319 will have like paper ledgers, et cetera. And so that's 388 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:50.720 one aspect of it. The other one is when you 389 00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:54.039 transact with securities, there is the security that moves, but 390 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:55.759 it's also money that moves, right because you need to 391 00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:57.799 pay for it, or you need to redeem it against something, 392 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.240 or you need to receive a dividend. So you need 393 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:04.559 to have also a ledger that tracks the money. And 394 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:07.400 then we happen to have the same ledger a public 395 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.319 blockchain that has a token that reference the security, and 396 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:15.160 the same you know technology layer represents dollars as well, 397 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.720 which is stable coins. So that allows you to do 398 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:22.119 things in terms of moving money and security simultaneously in 399 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.880 a super efficient way that it's impossible to international markets, 400 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:26.039 Like most people don't realize. 401 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:27.319