Speaker 1: When you figure out how to work with Blackloor, you
Speaker 1: can probably work with anybody else. And then eventually in
Speaker 1: March this year, we basically unbailed the project. A couple
Speaker 1: of things. One is the Tognized money market fund that
Speaker 1: we launched, which has very quickly become the largest in
Speaker 1: the world ever, the fastest growing exes.
Speaker 2: It's a huge success.
Speaker 3: This content is brought to you by bitco, which is
Speaker 3: one of the top crypto custodians in the crypto industry.
Speaker 3: Bitco works with many big companies and brands such as
Speaker 3: Pantera Capital, Bitstamp, and bitcoin Ira. Nike also selected Bitco
Speaker 3: to power its wallets for its NFTs and bitco has
Speaker 3: many great services such as hot wallets, custodial wallets, self
Speaker 3: managed cold wallets, and NFT wallets. Many institutions trust bitgo
Speaker 3: with its top level security and incredible services such as
Speaker 3: being able to deploy your capital while it's in custody,
Speaker 3: which includes lending, borrowing, tradings, taking DeFi access, and more.
Speaker 3: If you'd like to learn more about bitco, please visit
Speaker 3: bitgo dot com link in the description. Welcome into the
Speaker 3: Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward and with
Speaker 3: me is Carlos Domingo, who's the co founder and CEO
Speaker 3: at Securities. Carlos, great to have you on.
Speaker 2: Thanks Tony for I'm here, very very glad to be
Speaker 2: here with you guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Carlos, I'm really excited to speak with you. Tokenization
Speaker 3: has been on the adoption of tokenization has been on
Speaker 3: the rise, and Securitize is I think leading that charge.
Speaker 3: And I've known of Securities since back in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 3: So I'm really excited to have you on and I
Speaker 3: have a lot of questions for you. But let's start
Speaker 3: with your background, where you're from and what's your professional background.
Speaker 1: I'm originally from Barcelona, from Spain, and that's where I
Speaker 1: was born and recently until I was twenty one years old,
Speaker 1: and my background is technology. I have a piece in
Speaker 1: computer science, but then I also started involving the kind
Speaker 1: of like the intersection of business and technology most of
Speaker 1: my career.
Speaker 3: I also noticed you authored two books. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: I did so. The first book was many years ago,
Speaker 2: it's probably more than ten years ago.
Speaker 1: At that time, I was the head of R and
Speaker 1: DN innovation for a company called Telefonica, which is a
Speaker 1: very large telecommunications company, and I got really into try
Speaker 1: to understand why some companies innovate and some mothers don't,
Speaker 1: because telcods are not particularly famous for being innovative. And
Speaker 1: then over a book called The Journey of Innovation, which
Speaker 1: is kind of like a compendium of all the different
Speaker 1: innovation technologies that companies use depending on the stage where
Speaker 1: they are to do, you know, discovery and then commercialization,
Speaker 1: et cetera, which is basically a summary of I don't know,
Speaker 1: like ten or aut of fifteen books on innovation that
Speaker 1: I really like that they are you know, explained as
Speaker 1: a journey through the whole process of innovation from like
Speaker 1: the research until commercialization. I was the first one, and
Speaker 1: then the second one was in twenty sixteen when I
Speaker 1: when I discovered crypto, I got fascinated about it, and
Speaker 1: there were very few books about crypto at that time.
Speaker 1: Now like a million, but twenty sixteen was very early days,
Speaker 1: and in particular, there was none in the Spanish language.
Speaker 1: There were very few that were English books that were
Speaker 1: translated into Spanish. So I approached the editor of my
Speaker 1: previous book, which you know, sold quite well. So I
Speaker 1: don't know, like why did I grab a book about crypto,
Speaker 1: so I wrote it in twenty seventeen. He goes to
Speaker 1: go publish in twenty seventeen before the first would run.
Speaker 1: So it's very interesting because I was kind of like
Speaker 1: pitching crypto and bitcoin, and there was not a lot
Speaker 1: of things like DeFi, NFTs, none of those things existed
Speaker 1: back then. And I remember like how skeptical people were
Speaker 1: about crypto when I was like going doing the tour
Speaker 1: books and in the book in Spain, etcetera. People didn't
Speaker 1: understand anything about it. They didn't know anything about it,
Speaker 1: they didn't think it's like a real thing. So it
Speaker 1: was very interesting, and it also helped me kind of
Speaker 1: get deeper into the space because I had to do
Speaker 1: a lot of research about the first let's say ten
Speaker 1: years of crypto since bit kind of started until twenty
Speaker 1: seventeen when it got published.
Speaker 3: Now you mentioned you discovered crypto or bigcoin in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3: How did you learn about it? Did a friend tell
Speaker 3: you about it? Did you read about it on a forum?
Speaker 1: That's interesting, so twenty fourteen even earlier, Yeah, twenty thirteen fourteen,
Speaker 1: that's the first time I heard about bitcoin. When I
Speaker 1: was a Telephonica because I was managing R and D
Speaker 1: and innovation. We used to do something called the Disruptive Council,
Speaker 1: where we will invite people to tell us about disruptive
Speaker 1: new things happening in the world to stay up with
Speaker 1: the trends. And then there was a guy from Silicon Balley,
Speaker 1: Jeff Clavier, who came and talked to us about bitcoin.
Speaker 1: And I didn't pay much attention, just to be fair
Speaker 1: with like a lot of people heard forever. Then got
Speaker 1: into it, like I was like, what is this? Like,
Speaker 1: I didn't give much importance. And then then he started
Speaker 1: telling us the year after about blockchain as supposed to
Speaker 1: crypto bitcoin. How that was like shifting on the silicon body.
Speaker 1: That's want A lot of these blockchain enterprise blockchain companies
Speaker 1: came up in twenty fifteen sixteen, But really when I
Speaker 1: got like the bag and I got really into the
Speaker 1: space was in twenty sixteen that's one of Thereum launched.
Speaker 1: And then and I heard from from a friend that
Speaker 1: was one of the first uh you know, I CIOs
Speaker 1: that he was launching a token, the Basic Attention token
Speaker 1: from Brave so and that's that's when I really got
Speaker 1: into the space. Uh, and started like investing in icios,
Speaker 1: learning the technology and then decided to basically launch you know,
Speaker 1: atorganized fund first and then.
Speaker 2: Securitized that friend was that brandan Ike. That's Brandon I am.
Speaker 1: So Brendan was the CEO of Firefox and then became
Speaker 1: the CEO for a short period of time. And at
Speaker 1: that time I was working in telecommunications, so we did
Speaker 1: the project together to build a mobile operating system based
Speaker 1: on HTML five. Wanted to use web technologies as they
Speaker 1: frontend for a mobile phone. So Brendan and I, you know,
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time together. This was really pretty crypto,
Speaker 1: and then he pivoted to crypto very early on, like
Speaker 1: even before the Theorem launch. He was he had the
Speaker 1: idea about the browser with the wallet to be able
Speaker 1: to pay for your attention and receive rewards, and started
Speaker 1: with big company. Didn't work because it is not suitable
Speaker 1: for that. And then when the third launch and he
Speaker 1: could create his own let's say currency for doing that process,
Speaker 1: that's when when the project really took off.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I had Brian on the podcast years ago,
Speaker 3: and I think he's also the co creator of JavaScript
Speaker 3: of MAM.
Speaker 1: He's one of the smartest persons I've ever met. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as a legend in Silicon Valley.
Speaker 3: It's amazing. And you're both here building in Web three.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of people if you think about it.
Speaker 1: I saw that you had Mike Belch recently from Bidgo.
Speaker 1: He also comes from you know, a Web two and
Speaker 1: did a lot of work, and he was actually a
Speaker 1: Netscape and then Google. If you look at Jeremy Alair,
Speaker 1: so I knew who he was way before crypto because
Speaker 1: you're doing web streaming what I was Intel COO. So
Speaker 1: there's a lot of you know, especially people of our
Speaker 1: age which are like like the older generation of the
Speaker 1: crypto people. We all come from web to technology backgrounds
Speaker 1: and got into crypto layer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fascinating. I was thinking about that not too
Speaker 3: long ago, about the number of entrepreneurs and builders who
Speaker 3: were in Web one point zero and Web two and
Speaker 3: now they're hearing Web three and it's fascinating. And I
Speaker 3: tried to share that as an example to people who
Speaker 3: still don't understand crypto, like this is the next layer
Speaker 3: on top of the Internet. And the folks who were
Speaker 3: at Netscape and you know, marking treason and all these guys,
Speaker 3: they're here. They're here building.
Speaker 1: Correct, because it's you know, if you think about what
Speaker 1: was missing on the first Internet layer, there were two things, right.
Speaker 1: One was a way to transfer value because you could
Speaker 1: transfer you know, boys, communication, messaging, content, et cetera. But
Speaker 1: there was not a layer that allows you to transvalue.
Speaker 1: And if you think about the Internet, the Internet is
Speaker 1: a decentralized network, right, like that's people was designed to
Speaker 1: be decentralized by DARPA, the Department of Defense Agency, precisely
Speaker 1: to be a network that is very resilient, right that
Speaker 1: you can all go down in case of an attack.
Speaker 1: So if you think about what a blockchain is, it's
Speaker 1: just basically a decentralized network that is very resilient, right,
Speaker 1: and it's cryptographically secure, so you can use it to
Speaker 1: transfer things that represent value. So that's kind of like
Speaker 1: the missing layer on top of the Internet. I think
Speaker 1: the other interesting thing of how crypto has developed as
Speaker 1: opposed to the Internet is how people are monetizing the
Speaker 1: protocol as opposed to the Internet, that the application layer
Speaker 1: accrue all the value, so that the facebooks and the
Speaker 1: you know, the Googles of the world, as oppose in
Speaker 1: crypto orre the infrastructure layer. Because of the ability to
Speaker 1: issue a token, then they accrue a lot of value.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's a lot of similarities.
Speaker 3: Yeah for sure. So do you feel that model is
Speaker 3: now flipped on its head to your point, Facebook collects
Speaker 3: all the monetization benefits, right, but the users they don't
Speaker 3: get anything unless you you know, buy the stock. But
Speaker 3: rather now you can be kind of an equity holder
Speaker 3: by having the token, you can have governance, say and
Speaker 3: on the network and be more of have more skin
Speaker 3: in the game versus Facebook is just monetizing your activity.
Speaker 1: We shouldn't sayquit the whole lot. Otherwise this this is
Speaker 1: going to come and say those stop and securities that's
Speaker 1: what they are. They are to some extent, you know,
Speaker 1: I know there's a very controversial argument, but I agree
Speaker 1: with you. Like at the end of the day, they
Speaker 1: give you economic exposure on the success of the project, right,
Speaker 1: which is what securities are anyway. So that's why there
Speaker 1: is this controversy about whether the stock and sarch securities
Speaker 1: or not. But yeah, I agree with you that they
Speaker 1: give you an option to participate. And this is why
Speaker 1: you know there is this huge retail following in crypto
Speaker 1: that maybe was not existing in other industries because of
Speaker 1: the ability to participate and get upside if a project
Speaker 1: does well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I need to rephrase or update my verbiage I
Speaker 3: should say, but you know, you get to participate and
Speaker 3: all right.
Speaker 1: But by the way, this is the whole controversial about
Speaker 1: whether the can say securities or not that because you
Speaker 1: do actually get a commercial benefit out of it, right,
Speaker 1: So so arguably that's what securities are supposed to be,
Speaker 1: or investment contracts, and there's another argument that they're not
Speaker 1: because of other reasons. So but yeah, that's that's preciically
Speaker 1: the the conundrum there for sure.
Speaker 3: So let's talk about securitizes. Tell us about securities. How
Speaker 3: did the idea come about to start this company and
Speaker 3: what you guys do?
Speaker 2: It came out of the ICO time.
Speaker 1: So when icios started to happen, and I remember that time,
Speaker 1: it was brave, It was argon with this uh you know,
Speaker 1: the centralized governance thing that I also knew the founder
Speaker 1: who else it was Bangkor, which was kind of like
Speaker 1: the predecessor of UNISWAP. And there was like many of
Speaker 1: these icos that I was, you know, fascinated about the products,
Speaker 1: but at the same time being able to participate, as
Speaker 1: you said in the product right as an investor, being
Speaker 1: able to invest and receive something that would represent uh
Speaker 1: so well correlate let's say, in value with the sexcess
Speaker 1: of the project. So and uh you know, because I
Speaker 1: come from tech, I've always been investing on the startups, investing,
Speaker 1: but with the with the Web one point the companies
Speaker 1: went public very early, so it was very easy to
Speaker 1: invest in public stocks, but then that kind of disappeared,
Speaker 1: so it was almost impossible to invest on the stock
Speaker 1: of a company unless you invest when they're private, or
Speaker 1: you had to invest in vcs. And then those processes
Speaker 1: of investing in on private shares, whether private shares or vcs,
Speaker 1: are very cumbersome. It's very difficult to follow to do
Speaker 1: the investment, and then they're very liquid, so you don't
Speaker 1: know when you don't have a market to sell them.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So kind of Web one point zero IPOs were super early,
Speaker 1: so that kind of solve that problem, make it easy
Speaker 1: to invest and make them liquid. Then Web two that disappear,
Speaker 1: and then Web three that kind of came back with
Speaker 1: the token right, make it very easy to invest and
Speaker 1: make it liquid. Because a lot of these stockings were
Speaker 1: liquid right after and they had projects like bank or
Speaker 1: which we look at it very very closely at the beginning,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, is the predecessor of unit in terms
Speaker 1: of automated market making. That could create liquidity automatically right
Speaker 1: without centralized this change. So I thought it was fascinating,
Speaker 1: and then my observation was very naive, thinking why not
Speaker 1: apply this to securities? Right, so you have equity, you
Speaker 1: have lp inches of bcs, et cetera. Those are things
Speaker 1: that are difficult to invest and that are I liquid.
Speaker 1: So if you could take this technology and apply there,
Speaker 1: then you can open up a huge market. What I
Speaker 1: didn't know, because my background is not you know, legal
Speaker 1: or regulation or finance, is how complex the whole regulatory
Speaker 1: environment of doing that legally is. Right, of course, a
Speaker 1: lot of people did it illegally from the beginning wanted
Speaker 1: to do it legally, but the whole idea was to
Speaker 1: apply the ICO model to securities. And then, of course,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, we were very naive thinking this is
Speaker 1: a technology problem, and then realize it's not just a
Speaker 1: technology problem, it's a regulatory problem. So I think that
Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons why in the twenty
Speaker 1: eighteen times when you guys met us for the first time,
Speaker 1: things didn't take off, right because of all the regulatory complexity,
Speaker 1: licenses that you need to do things in a legal way,
Speaker 1: et cetera. But that was kind of like the genesis
Speaker 1: of of securities, right. Take the ICO model and try
Speaker 1: to apply it as closely as possible to things that
Speaker 1: are regulated.
Speaker 3: And that has evolved to tokenization and the ability to
Speaker 3: tokenize many different things. So I love to get your
Speaker 3: outlook on tokenization. You know, there's things I've thought of, like, okay,
Speaker 3: if athletes tokenize themselves or their contracts, or I, as
Speaker 3: an entrepreneur tokenize myself, what is your outlook and let's
Speaker 3: cover like the full gambit, you know, whether it's my
Speaker 3: house myself or black rock building and tokenizing a fund
Speaker 3: and things like that.
Speaker 1: So first, tokenization is exactly what we did at the beginning, right.
Speaker 1: So when I say securities, if you think about the
Speaker 1: process of tokenization is basically you take an asset whatever
Speaker 1: the act is. It could be treasury is, it could
Speaker 1: be the contract of an athlete that you mentioned. We
Speaker 1: actually did a project with an MBA player about that
Speaker 1: because Stephen the Winded many years ago. Then it could
Speaker 1: be you know, a building, it could be whatever. For
Speaker 1: the most part, like you issue a token that gives
Speaker 1: you an economic interest in the underlying asset that and
Speaker 1: that token is either a security or you have to
Speaker 1: securitize the asset through a traditional securitization process, which is
Speaker 1: basically put it in some sort of legal or rapper
Speaker 1: and then give fractional ownership to this. Right, that's why
Speaker 1: we call securities right the way, like most people don't
Speaker 1: understand what we call securitize because toganization is basically securitization
Speaker 1: on asteroids, because it's like a very good way to
Speaker 1: do it. So to organization is what we've been doing
Speaker 1: since the beginning. I think that the problem is that
Speaker 1: and then obviously we've we've learned this over the years,
Speaker 1: is that you think that this applies to anything. Right,
Speaker 1: you could talk because theoretically you could tognize anything you want.
Speaker 1: And there's all these people over the years have been
Speaker 1: saying everything will be tokenized, or the assets in the world,
Speaker 1: the real estate, or the contracts of the athletes and
Speaker 1: things like that, and the reality is that you know.
Speaker 2: The token itself.
Speaker 1: Tochanization itself doesn't necessarily addvalue unless there's all the things
Speaker 1: that come along, right that you make it easier to purchase,
Speaker 1: which sometimes is a regulatory problem, not necessarily a technology problem.
Speaker 1: You make it somewhat liquid, they're talking, that's something that
Speaker 1: the non organized version doesn't do, which makes it more valuable,
Speaker 1: like you know, easy to trade or to move around,
Speaker 1: peer to peer, et cetera. And a lot of these
Speaker 1: early organization projects, we're not doing anything. You're just basically
Speaker 1: putting a token und the blockchain and that's it. So
Speaker 1: I think that's why it didn't take off. My view
Speaker 1: today is a bit different. I think that all these
Speaker 1: long tail toganization projects, like I said, organizing the contract
Speaker 1: of an mb athlete what happened, but will happen much
Speaker 1: farther down the road. And I think that today if
Speaker 1: you think about what has really taken off is toganization
Speaker 1: of dollars, right, that's the stable coins. And then the
Speaker 1: next thing which is adjacent to it that is taking
Speaker 1: off now is the organization of treasures, right because these
Speaker 1: are like dollars but with a yield, but almost so
Speaker 1: safe as a dollar. And then and then you're going
Speaker 1: to go down that way, right like treasures will continue going,
Speaker 1: and then you will have things adjacent to treasuries, could
Speaker 1: be commercial paper, could be other you know, private credit,
Speaker 1: et cetera. And then eventually you will get to this
Speaker 1: long tail of tokenized assets that will be tradeable and
Speaker 1: will be very efficient.
Speaker 2: But I think we're still far away from from that
Speaker 2: situation now.
Speaker 3: In regards to black Rock, you guys have a partnership
Speaker 3: with the Biddle and creating the Biddle Fund, which just
Speaker 3: five hundred million dollar milestone. Tell us about how that
Speaker 3: partnership came about and the fund and how the performance
Speaker 3: so far.
Speaker 1: So we've talked to black Rock since I think twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen when when Roy Mitnick joined the company is the
Speaker 1: head of Digital Asset now and then we've been on
Speaker 1: and off talking to them about, you know, things that
Speaker 1: we could do together until around a year and a
Speaker 1: half ago. And this is when when Larry thing More
Speaker 1: publicly was saying that you know, talken is was the
Speaker 1: future of asset management because he sat it's a very
Speaker 1: efficient way of managing assets and provided more efficiency, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And then we kind of restart the conversations with them
Speaker 1: about doing something together, and then of course we work
Speaker 1: with them behind the scenes for a long time. You know,
Speaker 1: getting to work with black Rock was probably a bigger
Speaker 1: challenge that we expected initially in terms of complying with
Speaker 1: all their you know, regulatory compliance. You know, it's a
Speaker 1: very big asset manager, and it's very strict in some things,
Speaker 1: which you know is a good thing, right because you
Speaker 1: when you figure out how to work with Blackglog, you
Speaker 1: can probably work with anybody else. And then eventually in
Speaker 1: March this year, we basically unveiled the project. A couple
Speaker 1: of things. One is the Tokenice money market fund that
Speaker 1: we've launched, which has very quickly become the largest in
Speaker 1: the world ever, the fastest growing et cetera. Is a
Speaker 1: huge success. And then the second thing was an estrategic
Speaker 1: investment of black Rock in our company, and then Joseph
Speaker 1: Shalom taking a board seat, and you know, continue working
Speaker 1: closely with them on enabling more functionality Forbiddle for the
Speaker 1: first first, because we think, I think we're just scratching
Speaker 1: the surface, and then doing other projects in the future
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 3: Now I know some people who are new to crypto,
Speaker 3: blockchain and tokenization are going to say, so what so, okay,
Speaker 3: black rock tokenized. What are some of the benefits I
Speaker 3: guess the tangible benefits that maybe the newbie user can
Speaker 3: relate to. Is it faster, is it twenty four to
Speaker 3: seven trading? What are some of the benefits.
Speaker 1: So the benefits of the organization depends on on the asset. Right,
Speaker 1: some assets, some tognized assets have this feature that makes
Speaker 1: them more useful for some of these don't. But overall,
Speaker 1: you know, what people need to understand is when you
Speaker 1: when you buy or when you issue securities, you need
Speaker 1: to represent the ownership somewhere. You need a ledger, right,
Speaker 1: So that's the premise. You need to have a ledger
Speaker 1: that you represent the ownership of the asset, and then
Speaker 1: you could use any ledger. But blocking happens to be
Speaker 1: a very good ledger that is publicly available. Is you know, decentralized,
Speaker 1: is cryptographically secure, and that has if you think about
Speaker 1: the origin of blockchain, is bitcoin right, which was precidesally
Speaker 1: is a ledger designed to record ownership of an asset
Speaker 1: and being able to transfer the ownership of the asset
Speaker 1: in a decentralized way in a very safe way. Right,
Speaker 1: So the same thing applies to security. Securities need to
Speaker 1: be represented somewhere. Today, many securities are represented in inefficient
Speaker 1: ledgers or in some cases that have electronic ledgers, they
Speaker 1: will have like paper ledgers, et cetera. And so that's
Speaker 1: one aspect of it. The other one is when you
Speaker 1: transact with securities, there is the security that moves, but
Speaker 1: it's also money that moves, right because you need to
Speaker 1: pay for it, or you need to redeem it against something,
Speaker 1: or you need to receive a dividend. So you need
Speaker 1: to have also a ledger that tracks the money. And
Speaker 1: then we happen to have the same ledger a public
Speaker 1: blockchain that has a token that reference the security, and
Speaker 1: the same you know technology layer represents dollars as well,
Speaker 1: which is stable coins. So that allows you to do
Speaker 1: things in terms of moving money and security simultaneously in
Speaker 1: a super efficient way that it's impossible to international markets,
Speaker 1: Like most people don't realize.
Speaker 2: When you transact.
Speaker 1: International markets, things don't settle, like the transfer of the
Speaker 1: ownership and the money doesn't happen immediately, and that creates
Speaker 1: all sort of problems. You know, counterparty risk creates issues
Speaker 1: with you know, reserve that you need to have in
Speaker 1: case the price changes, et cetera. So all those things
Speaker 1: get eliminated on the blocks. You just make a very
Speaker 1: very efficient layer that allows you to transact with securities
Speaker 1: and simultaneously in an extremely efficient way. And that makes
Speaker 1: it easier for those securities to then be used by people.
Speaker 1: Right because like if you have bidle, for instance, and
Speaker 1: you need cash because you need to liquidate your position,
Speaker 1: you know, you just swap it by USDC on chain
Speaker 1: and you get USDC twenty four seven available. You want
Speaker 1: to do that in traditional markets, good luck with it, right,
Speaker 1: So you have to notify somebody to do it. You
Speaker 1: have to submit the redemption requests. It will take them,
Speaker 1: like you know, a they or two to do it.
Speaker 1: If you get caught up in the middle of the weekend,
Speaker 1: then it doesn't happen until Monday, there's a holiday. They
Speaker 1: also doesn't happen et cetera, because nothing is automated. Everything
Speaker 1: is manual, while these things are all like digitized on
Speaker 1: the same ledger and everything is automated.
Speaker 3: So and do you feel that will open up secondary
Speaker 3: and tertiary markets, especially you know, both for retail and institutions.
Speaker 3: I know the retail tokenization aspect is still way off,
Speaker 3: like you know, but let's say people decide to tokenize
Speaker 3: some sort of rare artwork they have, or a rare
Speaker 3: car or whatever it may be. What type of like
Speaker 3: secondary in tertiary markets do you think might open up.
Speaker 1: The first thing I want to say is that you know,
Speaker 1: there is this this misperception that toganization makes the asset
Speaker 1: more liquid, and it's actually not really true. Right, So
Speaker 1: what toganization does it makes the asset easier to trade
Speaker 1: and easier to transfer, Okay, And of course to have liquidity,
Speaker 1: you have to transfer the asset, right, So so one
Speaker 1: thing is a prerequisite for the other one. But the
Speaker 1: fact that tochiniciation make it very easy to move the
Speaker 1: asset is not necessarily makes that the asset is going
Speaker 1: to be liquid just for the fact of being tokenized.
Speaker 1: And I think this has been something that the industry
Speaker 1: has gone wrong over the years, and that's why you've
Speaker 1: seen all these you know, rare art toganization that you
Speaker 1: just mentioned that people think, oh this do you have
Speaker 1: this Pikasso? And by the way, I also thought that
Speaker 1: this was going to happen many years ago. I just
Speaker 1: you know, over the time, I realized it's not as symbol.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think that I'm going to tognize
Speaker 1: that Picasso on because you know, have a very efficient
Speaker 1: way of product fractional ownership and moving and transferring the
Speaker 1: ownership of these fractions of the pain. Then the pain
Speaker 1: becomes liquid. But you still need to have that market
Speaker 1: that wants to buy and sell the asset, right and
Speaker 1: then I think that for these long tail assets, those
Speaker 1: markets are still not there. So today, if somebody comes
Speaker 1: to us and says we want to organize a rare
Speaker 1: asset like a rare paint, we will license the technology
Speaker 1: if they want to, but we will not get involved
Speaker 1: because they most likely probably is that this is not
Speaker 1: going to be a successful project. So I think that
Speaker 1: we need to, as I mentioned, go from the most
Speaker 1: liquid assets, which are dollars and next treasure is all
Speaker 1: the way down building all the infrastructure not just for
Speaker 1: making the asset easy to trade, but also to have
Speaker 1: liquidity and having off market participants. So that goes along
Speaker 1: with bringing retail into the mix, which today most of
Speaker 1: the organization projects. We do have some retail projects, and
Speaker 1: we've done retail projects in the past, but there is
Speaker 1: still a regulatory friction to do it right that has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the technology. I think that will
Speaker 1: get eliminated over time and will get a simple way
Speaker 1: of retail to participate in organization projects the same way
Speaker 1: that they buy Apple chairs or you know, Tesla shares today.
Speaker 2: And it's not a problem.
Speaker 3: You kind of touched a bit on this earlier. But
Speaker 3: you know, let's say an entrepreneur, let's say Elon Musk, right,
Speaker 3: was to tokenize himself and this is like maybe ten
Speaker 3: years from now, but someone of that caliber well known,
Speaker 3: they see his vision, they see his success and the
Speaker 3: companies he's built.
Speaker 2: Do you think people will do that?
Speaker 3: And could it be that also new entrepreneurs can say,
Speaker 3: here's my idea, I'm going to tokenize myself and you
Speaker 3: share in my I don't know, earnings or whatever may
Speaker 3: be over time. Do you think that that might be
Speaker 3: a scenario that appears.
Speaker 2: That's that's interesting.
Speaker 1: So I mean, if you master today issues are token
Speaker 1: that gives you any access to his future earnings, that's
Speaker 1: going to be a massive success, right because obviously you
Speaker 1: know these guys like.
Speaker 2: The most successful entrepreneur ever in history.
Speaker 1: If you think about all the stuff he's done, so
Speaker 1: people will bet on him being successful in the future
Speaker 1: and they would want that, right, Why you must want
Speaker 1: to do that or not that's a different story because
Speaker 1: he doesn't need to do that. But along those lines,
Speaker 1: we did this project, as I mentioned with Spencer Lin
Speaker 1: with him where he basically tokenized his the future earnings
Speaker 1: of his contract, so you could actually buy a token
Speaker 1: that will give you an interest based on the on
Speaker 1: the future earnings he was making on the on the contracts.
Speaker 1: And that was a very interesting project was it became
Speaker 1: very controversial. The NBA didn't like it. He went through
Speaker 1: all sort of regulatory and legal problems and ended up
Speaker 1: launching but with limited success. So I think those are
Speaker 1: super interesting ideas. There's been also the same concept around
Speaker 1: toognizing uh, you know, royalty streams for music for artists,
Speaker 1: which is kind of similar idea of Okay, I'm an artist,
Speaker 1: you know any money to produce my music? I tell you,
Speaker 1: I tognized myself and of my future earnings of the
Speaker 1: royalties of the music that I produce, and and you
Speaker 1: you can you know, fund my business, right, So it's
Speaker 1: kind of like funding the personal if you want to
Speaker 1: some extent, right, which is a very interesting concept. I
Speaker 1: think eventually these things will happen, but I still think
Speaker 1: that we need to create a lot more infrastructure demand
Speaker 1: than simplicity to be able to participate for these things
Speaker 1: to really take off.
Speaker 3: Now, we talked about toganization of money stable coins and
Speaker 3: then treasuries, and you know what Black Rock's doing with
Speaker 3: their fund and so forth. What do you think is
Speaker 3: going to be the next wave? Will it be real
Speaker 3: estate as maybe that's a bit more liquid, and that's
Speaker 3: a very prominent asset class people are familiar with. Everybody
Speaker 3: understands you need shelter, But if I can if a
Speaker 3: building in New York City is tokenized, I might invest
Speaker 3: in that because I know the value goes up over time.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be a skeptic of the real estate organization,
Speaker 1: and I've been doing a lot of those projects over
Speaker 1: the years.
Speaker 2: Perhaps though that's why I'm a bit skeptic.
Speaker 1: First first, real estate is a very broad term, right,
Speaker 1: so you could have, you know, a blacks and real
Speaker 1: estate fund that contains hundreds of properties. They're very diversify,
Speaker 1: actively managed, paying dividends. I do see those things eventually
Speaker 1: becoming tokenized because why not. Those are like fans semi liquid,
Speaker 1: et cetera, all the way to like an individual property.
Speaker 1: Let's say we were part of this crazy project many
Speaker 1: years ago trying to organize the Plaza hotel in New
Speaker 1: York when it was trying to when it was being sold.
Speaker 1: So those are like the two streams, right, Like you
Speaker 1: have a very diversify portfolio of things and a fun
Speaker 1: format that is real estate and it's huge that and
Speaker 1: you have like an individual property. I think that those
Speaker 1: individual organization projects, they will still, you know, take time
Speaker 1: to get tokenized successfully because first, you know, you need
Speaker 1: to find a demand, and second you need to find
Speaker 1: the liquidity. Right And when there's a small property, naturally
Speaker 1: you'll have a small amount of you know, holders of
Speaker 1: the token. And then because you have a small amount
Speaker 1: of holders of the token, then you will not have
Speaker 1: a lot of liquidity by definition, right. So I think,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, if you think about what's in
Speaker 1: between let's say real estate and treasure, is there's a
Speaker 1: bunch of a bunch of things in between, right right.
Speaker 2: There's private credit.
Speaker 1: Clos there is commercial paper, there's debt like bonds, et cetera,
Speaker 1: which are probably more suitable for coganization as a way
Speaker 1: to add, you know, treasure are going to go down
Speaker 1: in value the yield right because interest rates are coming down.
Speaker 2: Hopefully this year they will do the first cut.
Speaker 1: Right at that point in time, people will look for
Speaker 1: what's the adjacent in terms of risk. So it's a
Speaker 1: little bit riskier, but a little bit higher yield to
Speaker 1: start compensating from the yield that you're losing from holding treasures.
Speaker 3: So and you also to feel that, look, the market
Speaker 3: is not conditioned. People are not conditioned to understand it.
Speaker 3: The first they have to understand it right, and then
Speaker 3: they have to recognize that, hey, there's a safe market
Speaker 3: out there to do these things where other assets can
Speaker 3: be tokenized. So maybe we're ten years away from now.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's my daughter who's going to be more into
Speaker 3: I'm going to buy, you know, the part of the
Speaker 3: Empire State Building or something like that.
Speaker 1: The problem of these things is that, yeah, you need
Speaker 1: to have a very trustworthy marketplace where you know what
Speaker 1: you're buying about price, because you know, if they tell me, oh,
Speaker 1: you can buy a piece of the of the Empire
Speaker 1: State Building on one side, I will think this is
Speaker 1: very cool. Because why not, like pri state building probably
Speaker 1: never going to go down in value, and you know,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, I wouldn't know how to value,
Speaker 1: you know, whether I'm buying something at a fair price
Speaker 1: or not right, because I have no idea about real estate,
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, the cast flow of property,
Speaker 1: the actual value, the potential value in the future. This
Speaker 1: is a very complicated thing that only very few people
Speaker 1: know how to do it right. So I think that
Speaker 1: you know, being able to get enough retail demand for
Speaker 1: these things require, you know, marketplaces where people trust that
Speaker 1: there is a price setting in a fair way for
Speaker 1: people to participate, and I don't think we have that
Speaker 1: there yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: Now let's talk about the blockchains you're using to do this.
Speaker 3: Obviously block excuse me, black rock tokenized on each theorem?
Speaker 3: Are you mainly using etherorem Are there other blockchains that
Speaker 3: you're testing as well?
Speaker 2: So we started with a theorem.
Speaker 1: That's where everybody started in the industry when we started,
Speaker 1: because there was nothing else. So plus sixteenty seventeen, Over time,
Speaker 1: we kind of recognize that the world is probably multi
Speaker 1: chain and we're going to have multiple chains, and therefore
Speaker 1: we need to support different chains. So what we did
Speaker 1: is basically created a substruction later for our platform so
Speaker 1: we can talk to different chains. And then I started
Speaker 1: supporting all the change. We did some work in the
Speaker 1: past with Algorm, so the Exos talking for the Exos
Speaker 1: wallet was done in Algorm, and after that we've supported Avalanche,
Speaker 1: Polygon x sy more recently, and then we're now working
Speaker 1: with other block chains to be able to support them
Speaker 1: as well and be able to issue the same assets
Speaker 1: that we have on the theorem on multiple change, right,
Speaker 1: And that's kind of like phase one, which is what
Speaker 1: we're going to be doing from not till the end
Speaker 1: of the year. So you're going to see more blockchains
Speaker 1: coming life in our platform soon, the major ones you
Speaker 1: can think of. And then now the second thing that
Speaker 1: we're also looking at is working with not have supporting
Speaker 1: multiple blockchains, but being able to bridge the same token
Speaker 1: across multiple blockchains. That has different implications in terms of.
Speaker 2: How to do it and also how to.
Speaker 1: Control the compliance of the talken because our talkeets are securities,
Speaker 1: but that's ultimately what we want to do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exciting. I think you answered my next question
Speaker 3: I was going to ask by interoperability, like can I
Speaker 3: move a token from etheroeum over to avalanche, So you will.
Speaker 1: Be able to do it at some point in the future.
Speaker 1: In the near future. They were not talking about years.
Speaker 1: We're talking about months.
Speaker 3: Oh awesome, I notice is probably under wraps. Anything you
Speaker 3: can share about what black rocks next tokenization project might be.
Speaker 1: No, I kind of speak of we have a black
Speaker 1: Rock first, like black Rock is black Rock, and I'm
Speaker 1: security dies I can tell you what we want to
Speaker 1: do from security perspective. I think that as I mentioned first,
Speaker 1: I think Biddle is just scratching the surface. So if
Speaker 1: you think about you know, stable coins. If you think
Speaker 1: all crypto is like around two point five trillion dollars, right,
Speaker 1: and then you have one hundred and fifty billion dollars
Speaker 1: on stable coins, The first thing I think is going
Speaker 1: to happen is that first scripture is going to continue growing,
Speaker 1: but the stable coins will grow faster because it's probably
Speaker 1: one of the assets that has the most product market
Speaker 1: fit of entire crypto, right, So it's only natural that
Speaker 1: sable coins grow faster. So if crypto goes from two
Speaker 1: trillion to I don't know, ten trillion, stable coins are
Speaker 1: going to go from one hundred and fifty billion to
Speaker 1: two trillion because they will grow faster.
Speaker 2: So that's the thinking. Now. The second thing is what's
Speaker 2: adjacent to stable coins is treasure is.
Speaker 1: And today you have one hundred and fifty billion dollars
Speaker 1: stable coins and only two billion dollars in treasure. That
Speaker 1: makes no sense. You should have a much bigger percentage
Speaker 1: of the stable coin market that is in treasure is
Speaker 1: because in traditional market is actually the opposite. You have
Speaker 1: two dollars of treasure is per each dollar of actual cash.
Speaker 1: So of course cryptures will be different because stable coins
Speaker 1: are permissionless and treasure is our permission because of securities,
Speaker 1: so I think it will be the reverse. But the
Speaker 1: fact that is only two billion out of one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty billion makes no sense. And the only reason
Speaker 1: that is happening is because it hasn't been anybody pushing
Speaker 1: that market until we came in with black Rock, and
Speaker 1: now everybody's like rush into to grow this market. So
Speaker 1: I think treasures will still have a massive amount of
Speaker 1: growth in front of us. And then I'm always a
Speaker 1: big believer of focus on not doing way too many
Speaker 1: things at the same time, even though sometimes we doing
Speaker 1: too many things. But if you can grow biddled from
Speaker 1: you know, half a billion dollars that is now to
Speaker 1: a few billion dollars or more, that by itself is
Speaker 1: a really good business. And then, as I mentioned, I'm
Speaker 1: exploring what's adjacent to it? Right, what are the things
Speaker 1: that are adjacent to it that people they will have
Speaker 1: demand in the next twelve to eighteen months as the
Speaker 1: yield of stable coins start as or treasure story, it
Speaker 1: starts trickling down.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: We already have a credit product with Hamilton Lane Scope,
Speaker 1: which is very good. It deals on average, you know,
Speaker 1: eighty twelve percent depending on the month it Sparak Credit
Speaker 1: is managed by Hamilton Lane, which a trillion dollar asset
Speaker 1: managers is very safe as opposed to a lot of
Speaker 1: the tokenized credit that have been in the crypto market.
Speaker 1: So I think those asset classes are very interesting for
Speaker 1: us in terms of launching more projects.
Speaker 3: What do you think about tokenized goal because as you're
Speaker 3: saying that, I thought of why not goal? I've heard
Speaker 3: different people working on things, I guess, but what are
Speaker 3: your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1: I think that the I was talking to a friend
Speaker 1: this weekend about that. We don't do commodities, So tognized
Speaker 1: goal is a commodity, and we do securities because that's
Speaker 1: where we have strength and mode, because we have the
Speaker 1: licenses and the experience how to do it. Securities are
Speaker 1: much more complex than commodities. I think there's an argument
Speaker 1: that because toognized commodities or gold or oil or whatever
Speaker 1: could trade in different venues at different times than the
Speaker 1: actual goal, that this has valued right because you know,
Speaker 1: I think recently the packs of stognized Goal, I think
Speaker 1: it was training at a completely different price than the
Speaker 1: actual goal. And the reason was because there was the
Speaker 1: manduring the weekend and people could buy packs of organized
Speaker 1: Goal but they couldn't buy normal goal DDF. Let's say so,
Speaker 1: and I created this location in the market, which I
Speaker 1: think is interesting for people doing arbit trust.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So I also think that commodities, maybe the coganization process
Speaker 1: is not necessarily the same like you can do purpose.
Speaker 1: I think it's a company Cale Color organ is doing that,
Speaker 1: creating perhaps on the price because people sometimes they just
Speaker 1: want to speculate on the price, they want to actually
Speaker 1: own the asset. So that's something else that own security
Speaker 1: is a bit more complicated, especially more liquid securities, so
Speaker 1: that might happen there. But yeah, I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, those are just very different problems,
Speaker 1: but both of them are equally interesting.
Speaker 3: On the note of that situation would go where the
Speaker 3: actual goal market is so to speak, for the weekend,
Speaker 3: but the token ies can still be purchased. What do
Speaker 3: you think we see the full twenty four to seven
Speaker 3: trading of securities and commodities on the blockchain? What's your
Speaker 3: timeline window where you know there's no opening or closing bell.
Speaker 1: Well, first, what people need to understand is that there's
Speaker 1: no reason why the New York Service SCEINS doesn't open
Speaker 1: twenty for seven. There's no regulatory reason. It's more like
Speaker 1: a tradition that the traders will trade in the morning
Speaker 1: and they will go up stop working at some point
Speaker 1: then the venue process. But there's more and more liquidity
Speaker 1: outside trading hours. And then some brokers like robbin Hood,
Speaker 1: they enable twenty for seven trading for a lot of
Speaker 1: stocks already. So I do think that you will see
Speaker 1: like national market stocks trading twenty for seven on traditional
Speaker 1: exchanges before they happen on the organized space. Because also,
Speaker 1: if you think about the most of the organization projects,
Speaker 1: they tend to focus on prid markets because national market securities,
Speaker 1: let's say like an Apple share Tenesila share have their
Speaker 1: own like regulatory restrictions in terms of how you trade
Speaker 1: them that the tokenized version of it is complicated to
Speaker 1: do from a regulatory perspective. So I think that those
Speaker 1: markets might not be the most suitable wants to go
Speaker 1: with organization, and I think the twenty for seven will
Speaker 1: take care by itself.
Speaker 2: With traditional markets.
Speaker 1: I think this is more interesting to organize anything else
Speaker 1: that is actually not available and not tradeable and not
Speaker 1: in any venue.
Speaker 2: Right, So.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely makes sense. I'm excited for that feature that
Speaker 3: where the markets can be twenty four to seven, and especially.
Speaker 2: Robinhood already I am.
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of rowing Hood and I use
Speaker 1: that for my own personal training, and there's a ton
Speaker 1: of stocks in Droming Hood that are already twenty for seven.
Speaker 3: And then you know, in addition to that, with tokenization,
Speaker 3: do you feel that it will open up assets to
Speaker 3: different countries and jurisdictions. For example, not everyone can access
Speaker 3: the New York Stock Exchange if you're in certain parts
Speaker 3: of the world, but maybe with tokenized securities and ass
Speaker 3: and commodities. Anyone can access those tokens.
Speaker 2: That's a that's a very interesting so that part.
Speaker 1: I do think that if you can solve their regulatory
Speaker 1: challenge to do it legally, because when you create a talken,
Speaker 1: and by the way, there's been some companies in the
Speaker 1: past and crypto that they've been trying to do this
Speaker 1: and some of them were shut down by regulators.
Speaker 2: So I think that there is a path to do it.
Speaker 1: But it's not a straightforward if you want to do
Speaker 1: it in a legal way, because even if you talk
Speaker 1: an test lash yers and sell them to the Philippines,
Speaker 1: you're still touching a US security, so the US regulators
Speaker 1: can still go after you, which actually happened in the
Speaker 1: past with some companies in the space. I don't need
Speaker 1: to mention anybody, but I do think that's an interesting
Speaker 1: value proposition, right, Yeah, this this digital twin as a
Speaker 1: talken that tracks the price of stock to be able
Speaker 1: to offer it, you know, the jurisdictions. I think that
Speaker 1: how to do it legally is where the tricky part is.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that that will probably happen, you know,
Speaker 1: sooner than later.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about the crypto market at large. We talked
Speaker 3: about you know, your background and discovering Bitcoin Circle twenty fourteen,
Speaker 3: then twenty sixteen and so forth. What are your thoughts
Speaker 3: on how the industry has grown, The ASD class has grown.
Speaker 3: We have bigcoin ets, we have e theorem metfs. It's
Speaker 3: pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: Look, I'm pretty happy that, you know, things are now
Speaker 1: growing in a much more stable way and a lot
Speaker 1: of the craziness and that happened the last few years
Speaker 1: is gone, because you know, the twenty twenty one grandpap
Speaker 1: in crypto, in my opinion, was purely speculative for the
Speaker 1: most part, and in many cases by people committing fraud
Speaker 1: bay openly, like you know, all these lending platforms like
Speaker 1: a block fi cell. To say, anybody that understands securities
Speaker 1: regulations knew that what they were doing was illegal and
Speaker 1: they didn't care. And I think that's not good for
Speaker 1: the industry that you have these people trying to play
Speaker 1: regulatory aarby trash, and then you have FTX with nobody
Speaker 1: knew they were doing something illegal and internal that it
Speaker 1: was actually the biggest illegal thing. And then after a
Speaker 1: Luna and then you have you know, so many of
Speaker 1: us strut. So I think that I'm pretty happy that
Speaker 1: a lot of these things are pasted and whoever needs
Speaker 1: to be in jailer's in jail, whoever needs to go
Speaker 1: when bankrupt and they're out because there's a bad actors
Speaker 1: that you don't want in the industry. And I think
Speaker 1: now people seem to be focusing on building real stuff.
Speaker 1: And I think this whole narrative and real weal assets
Speaker 1: came right after this debacle that happened a few years
Speaker 1: as a way to It's a terrible name, by the way,
Speaker 1: but it does signify that the crypto people think this
Speaker 1: is real as opposed to what was happening before, which
Speaker 1: was not real. Right, So I think that's that's interesting.
Speaker 1: But I still think that there's first there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people in crypto that are there as pure and
Speaker 1: another place where they can speculate, right that they could
Speaker 1: care less about crypto. It's just a more inefficient market,
Speaker 1: so I might as well specular here than eespeculate somewhere
Speaker 1: else that is a more either regulated or mature market.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people that are like grifters, that
Speaker 1: are like just in crypto because there is an opportunity
Speaker 1: to issue attacking and make money or an FT or whatever.
Speaker 1: But there is a significant amount of people that are
Speaker 1: trying to build real staff that actually has real utility,
Speaker 1: that solves real problems. And I think that portion, which
Speaker 1: used to be the minority in my opinions of crypto
Speaker 1: for the last ten years, is kind of growing and
Speaker 1: that will probably lead to two real usages of crypto
Speaker 1: that solve real problems, which today, in my opinion, is
Speaker 1: what is lacking.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I've been trying to highlight
Speaker 3: as much as possible, like the real world adoption. Like
Speaker 3: just yesterday, Avalanche they announced that the state of California
Speaker 3: put a bunch of vehicle card titles actually millions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we reposted that.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's not really nothing to do with us,
Speaker 1: but we thought it was a good example of somebody
Speaker 1: like Avalanche, which they're really good friends, and I really
Speaker 1: appreciate what they do of trying to build real stuff, right,
Speaker 1: things that have real utility.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Now you touched a bit on you know, security laws
Speaker 3: and clarity, and in the United States we're still waiting
Speaker 3: for comprehensive legislation, but there's been Carlos I mean an
Speaker 3: amazing impact on politics. Cryptos had an impact on politics
Speaker 3: where you have presidential candidates endorsing crypto a build a
Speaker 3: market structure, build madeia out of the House. We're waiting
Speaker 3: for it to go to the Senate. What are your
Speaker 3: thoughts on all this and do you think we get
Speaker 3: clear regulations by next year?
Speaker 1: It will all depend on where the elections go, obviously,
Speaker 1: because you have one candidate that obviously has been very vocal.
Speaker 1: I saw the specieve at at the BITCN conference in
Speaker 1: Asville this weekend, but I watched it live and I
Speaker 1: thought it was whoever wrote that speech knew exactly what
Speaker 1: it was the crypto communities is waiting to hear. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it was very refreshing to see, you know, a
Speaker 1: presidential candidate actually speaking about these topics and supporting the industry.
Speaker 1: So I think if if the Donald Trump becomes the president,
Speaker 1: we'll probably see a much more favorable regime in the US.
Speaker 1: I don't think that things will change overnight because these
Speaker 1: things need to be approved, they need to go. You
Speaker 1: will all dependals on, you know, how the House and
Speaker 1: the Senate end up being configured and who has control
Speaker 1: over those things. Because as you don't think it. I
Speaker 1: approved the House, but they have to go to the
Speaker 1: Senate and then they go to the President. So so
Speaker 1: getting things that prefer the US is not a simple thing.
Speaker 1: We certainly see we'll see a much more or friendly
Speaker 1: SEC and much more responsive. As you might know, I
Speaker 1: was actually an expert witness in Congress about an organization.
Speaker 1: What we do shouldn't be controversial, should be something that
Speaker 1: both you know, parties should support, but unfortunately doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to be the case. And that's pretty sad because you know,
Speaker 1: if our staff on organization is controversial, I can't even
Speaker 1: think about you know, feed twenty one or stable coin
Speaker 1: bills or things like that. But I do think that
Speaker 1: eventually this is you know, a two point five tillion
Speaker 1: dollars industry that is growing and that is here to stay.
Speaker 1: So somehow, you know, we need to have regulatory clarity
Speaker 1: and loss that regulate what happens because otherwise, you know,
Speaker 1: people can get hard, right, So we've seen this with
Speaker 1: a lot of the issues in the past of the
Speaker 1: lack of regulation has not let to stop frauds.
Speaker 3: So yeah, great point. All right, I got some wrap
Speaker 3: up questions here for you. Carlos first, if you could
Speaker 3: create your own meta verse, well the tem me.
Speaker 2: My own metaverse. I don't know. I'm a diver. I
Speaker 2: like diving.
Speaker 1: I've been diving for many, many years, and I think
Speaker 1: that being underwater, like when you're like deep, is the
Speaker 1: closest thing has been in a different planet. So but
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people don't dive because it's
Speaker 1: you know, they have classophobia or they're afraid about being there.
Speaker 1: So I will build the metaverse that you allow people
Speaker 1: to experiment what is to be underwater, like at a
Speaker 1: death certain depth and see on the beauty that you know,
Speaker 1: the sea has to offer us that is not available
Speaker 1: to most people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would love to have an immersive view of them.
Speaker 3: Is it called the Mariana Trench at the deepest part
Speaker 3: of the ocean, I believe it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that would be amazing because that's even way deeper. Right,
Speaker 1: But you know, even if you go, you know, I
Speaker 1: have an advanced budy, you can go like thirty or
Speaker 1: forty meters, which is pretty deep already, and it's beautiful,
Speaker 1: Like it's so different, it's like you're in a different planet.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, there's so many unique ocean creatures and things
Speaker 3: like that. It's like rare fishes and all that. It's incredible.
Speaker 3: Rapid fire questions.
Speaker 1: Favorite food, Wow, So I'm Spanish, so obviously I love
Speaker 1: Spanish food. I think it's probably one of the best
Speaker 1: custines in the world. But I also live for over
Speaker 1: ten years in Japan, which is probably the closest thing
Speaker 1: to the bestest food in the world compared to the
Speaker 1: Spanish one. So I'll have to take both in this case,
Speaker 1: the Spanish and Japanese food.
Speaker 3: Favorite musician are bad.
Speaker 2: Probably David Bowie. Favorite movie Blake Runner. That's great. Favorite book.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, So I.
Speaker 1: Don't read novels, so that's just a premise. So I
Speaker 1: don't read novels. I only read essays or business books.
Speaker 1: So within that context, I employed. One of my favorite books,
Speaker 1: and I actually met the author before he passed away
Speaker 1: many years ago, is The Innovator's Dilemma from Clayton Christensen.
Speaker 1: So this was a This is a very really good
Speaker 1: book about you know, why innovation happens and it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: And Clayton was a very articulated person that was a
Speaker 1: professor and that built his own consulting practice after so
Speaker 1: I think that's one of my favorite books.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're the second person I've heard within the past
Speaker 3: month who recommended that book.
Speaker 1: It's a very good book. There's two good books, and
Speaker 1: The Innovation If I can, you can have a second one.
Speaker 1: So The Innovators Dilemma is very good. But then there's
Speaker 1: one called Crossing the Chasm, which is very interesting as well,
Speaker 1: and perhaps crossing the Casm it's more relevant for our industry.
Speaker 1: So Crossing the Cosm is a I called Geoffrey Moore.
Speaker 1: He wrote the book. I think I wrote the introduction
Speaker 1: to the twenty fifth anniversary edition in Spain like five
Speaker 1: or six years ago, so it's probably thirty years old
Speaker 1: or something like that. But it talks about, you know,
Speaker 1: the adoption cycle of technologies, like why some technologies seem
Speaker 1: that they're going to be adopted and they never get adopted,
Speaker 1: and some others that get adopted by everybody, and what
Speaker 1: it takes to move them across the different population of
Speaker 1: people adopting technology, and it's very relevant for things like
Speaker 1: crypto and most of the startups. Founders should read that
Speaker 1: book because it's very interesting.
Speaker 3: I'm definitely going to check that one out. So thank
Speaker 3: you for that recommendation, Carlos, absolute pleasure and I love
Speaker 3: what you guys are doing and securitize and congrats on
Speaker 3: all the success and I'm sure I'm going to have
Speaker 3: to have you back on in the future. Is things
Speaker 3: progress with black Rock.
Speaker 2: And definitely don't take another five years to bring us
Speaker 2: back for sure. Thank you, Carlos, Let's get Tony. Thanks
Speaker 2: for the interview and it WST