Speaker 1: Oh it please, oh please?
Speaker 2: What prevents thee from Australian thyself to one whom I
have created with my hands?
Speaker 1: What his hands mean?
Speaker 3: Here?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 2: So it does the hands this verse to speak about
like the hand of a love but in a contexta.
Speaker 1: What does you mean he created with his hands? Bond?
I want Armando's position. I want to see what does
it mean it with his hands.
Speaker 2: Like in states like I see it as like a
lot of absolute power and control.
Speaker 1: Over actual We created Adam with his power, right right?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: But did he create a Blase with his power?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So then what's the difference between a bliss creation Adam?
Because understand the argument all I told the angels bow
down to Adam. A Blase said no, and Ablase he
tells the police, why didn't you bow down to created
my hands? But hold on, if a Blease was created
by Alla's hands, then what kind of argument is this
Allah saying, look, I honored Adam, I created with my hands.
You should bow to him. But then the Blice could
have said, but you created me with your hands too.
So how can hands mean power? Because that means even
Satan was created by all?
Speaker 2: I mean, the conder is no mention of it blease
being created specifically with a lost hands like in that term.
Speaker 1: Yes, and if you read the Sunny narrations or the scholars,
I'll say Allah distinguished few things with his hand. He
wrote the Torah with his hand. He created Adam with
his hand, right, so here was created and I said
the Sunny.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then I.
Speaker 1: Hope, let's make it simple so Jay can take over. Okay,
let me make sule. If hands means Allah's power, then
how did Allah refute it blease? Because I want you
to see the context here it blease? Why didn't you
bow to add them or my creator my hands? So
here he's showing that Adam is worthy of the angels
to bow down to him because he created with his hands.
But if hands means power, he created it least with
his hands, So what's the big deal?
Speaker 6: He made him by fire and I'm and I'm earth.
Speaker 1: And so he didn't create a lease with his hands, right, Pablo.
Speaker 6: He created my I'm made out of fire. You created
him out of out of earth.
Speaker 1: But he says I created him with my hands. Did
he create a bleast with his hands?
Speaker 6: I'm not sure if that means like forming him with
his hands. I'm I'm not.
Speaker 1: Whatever hands Okay, form at least from fire with his hands.
Speaker 4: He doesn't say anywhere they created with.
Speaker 5: You, don't.
Speaker 1: You guys are not getting the argument.
Speaker 2: Okay, So okay, your argument is if if all hands
miss power and and a lot created the blessed with power,
and so he created Adam with the hands, So why
is so that's the argument, right?
Speaker 7: That's not the celeffie the self the cellaffee say, guys,
take yeah that conversations.
Speaker 1: The celoffee say this is I got this from the
self and others. They said, No, I.
Speaker 5: Love you, I love you, I love you too. Let's go.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go talk to but because you guys
are not listening, love me to listen. Okay, hey, but
so much I can't make the point.
Speaker 6: Go ahead, Sam, I'm listening to you, Bro.
Speaker 1: I know you are, Bro. That's what I said. But
we got to do someone a mando.
Speaker 8: Bro.
Speaker 1: Shoot anyway, I'm listening.
Speaker 5: I'm listening.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 1: The celaffie say, if the hands of a law means
his power, I'm not created everything by his power, and
that means there was no point for all to say
to a blase a blase, I created my hands, because
I'll also created it least with his hands.
Speaker 5: They day.
Speaker 1: This must mean that Allah created Adam differently from a bliz. Yes,
that means he created him with his hands, which means
actual hands, not power. Because of power. Allah created even
at least with his power, it wouldn't be different. That's
their art. So if it means power, there's no argument
that I was making because Allah created a lease with
his hands, Adam with his hands, because it only means power.
But argument here is to show look at please, I
created you. But I created Adam differently. I created with
my hands, so it cannot mean power. That's the argument
of the cellar. He is not my argum. So why
are they all?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 2: So we are attributing the meaning of hands according to a context.
So for example, when you see the creation of the
bleas the Satan, whatever, it's not specifically mentioned in the
Quran that he was created with God's hands.
Speaker 4: He was created among the jins, and he adored a lot.
Speaker 2: According to the story, if I'm not incorrect, he loved
a lot so much he was raised to the angels.
But he was made out of smokeless fire, and then
Adam al Salam, Peace and blessings be upon hands. He
was created out of clay, so when God commanded everybody
to bow down to his creation, and so that's how
I understand it. But Hans Hans in the context means
that just like hands can be in protection, just like
hands can be guidance according to contexts.
Speaker 1: Pablo, do you believe a lot has a hand?
Speaker 6: I believe what I read that he has a hand.
Speaker 1: He says he has power or is it.
Speaker 9: In a hand?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 6: He said he created stuff by just saying no be
ku kun, and so I don't know if he created
them like that or he.
Speaker 1: You know, have a hand. That's something.
Speaker 2: Means like being it is.
Speaker 1: I know what means, buddy, But I'm asking about the pablom.
Earlier you said that Allah has a hand. That soundlike anything.
So does he have a hand?
Speaker 10: Uh?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, he says he has it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So now you guys debate what's why he's saying
that here, hands means power, but you're saying no, Alla
has a hand. I'm like anything. So which one of
you should be following? I want to becme Muslim? Should
I follow Armando.
Speaker 4: Or you.
Speaker 6: Should follow your heart. You should follow yeay man, your.
Speaker 4: Truth fellow, your heart, Sam, what does your heart tell
you about this?
Speaker 1: Well? Gohad Jay, you can take it from you brother.
So I just wanted to make the verification. That's the
because this is the argument sell if you're not me.
And by the way, Jay, can you confirm these are
the argument supposed to metaphysician used to Shoola has hands
in your debate?
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean I have multiple books about Muslims debating
this very issue.
Speaker 6: So I appreciate y'all because I'm gonna look into this.
Speaker 1: So contact me on Skype. Should we go live, I
want to talk to you absolutely.
Speaker 12: All Right, Well, I think that's that's the limit with this,
but we're gonna move on.
Speaker 4: I appreciate Pablo and Armando for coming up. You guys
are thank y'all.
Speaker 6: Thank y'all for coming out. H he'll be here a week.
Speaker 9: Oh man, thanks for having us.
Speaker 6: Pablo, Yes, yes, uh yes, I wanted to ask y'all question,
but we rate well that time on y'all teaching.
Speaker 1: Contact me on Skype. You can go live and me
ask me questions. That's what I'm saying. Contact me.
Speaker 11: I mean we should add that most of the known
popular Muslim defenders believe that all actually has a hand. Yeah,
all of the people that you hear Muslim lantern and
sneak o and uh you know, h job, all those
guys Jake that they're of that same school.
Speaker 3: Yeah, uh uh to.
Speaker 6: My Muslim brother, venezuela Latinos Latinos do.
Speaker 4: You know Latino?
Speaker 1: There you go.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's your key.
Speaker 5: For me.
Speaker 4: Like, I just wanted to ask a question.
Speaker 5: I do have a question.
Speaker 4: The next guest.
Speaker 1: No, man, come on, yeah, man, if you want to
talk to you.
Speaker 6: I got you saying I got you, brother, I'm a
con take I got you.
Speaker 11: These guys, I don't know if like if so if
you were supposed to kill people centuries ago over the
issue of all having a hand. But now it's all cool,
Like which which one is it? Do we do? You
go to war? Is everything cool now?
Speaker 12: Well, in twenty twenty four Islam, it's different now, Jay,
I mean, gocha literally, we are getting now that Allah
is actually a mother in some sense that if you
mean it, because they're using what they're calling out analytical truths.
So Allah in the correct meaning is a mother in
some sense. Now they're saying that in twenty twenty four.
So it's amazing Islam is forever changing and flowing differently.
Speaker 4: All right, so all right, let's go ahead and bring
up seeker. Seeker, you are up?
Speaker 9: How are you.
Speaker 5: Hello? Can you hear me?
Speaker 4: Yes, we can hear you? Just fine?
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm not here for a debit.
As I mentioned it in the private chat, I'm a
Muslim and making sure I've been doubtful about my religion,
I think since two years back because I know some
Christian prints. I got a discussion with them and debate,
not debate like he used to talk. Then I'm a
practice Muslim, like I'm a core Muslim. I practice everything,
But I was not aware about Hadid's and like that
like that stuff. So at that moment I started to
read hadith and like deep tribe in everything, and that's
where I'm like being doubtful. And the thing is when
I've been tribbed in you know, many Muslim speakers like
you know, do wise and then but they don't want
to speak to me. They call me like murthed because
of like, yeah, the questions whature have you know, like
they don't want to directly answer you and when I
just need the explanation, they don't answer. So so my
discretion friend, she's a she can Arabic. So that helped
me lots because she has helped me and showed me
a lot of hadid like she could help me at
the same time. And that's I'm step now. I don't
know where to like go because I've seen the logic
extension on some of your debates and some of your
like YouTube videos, and I don't know like what to choose.
So this is my person speaking and I'm looking for
like a good help, a good guidance what to do.
Speaker 12: Well, if you are sincere, we praise God for bringing
you here. Man, he came to the right place. So
go go ahead and ask your question. We've got some
qualified people here, Jay and Sam and myself.
Speaker 4: So you know we're trying to deal with your question.
So what is it?
Speaker 5: Man?
Speaker 12: What's uh? What are you confused about? Where you lost that?
What are you wondering? What's most heavy.
Speaker 4: On your mind? I guess with what you're trying to do.
Speaker 5: Of course, one of the reasons like why I was
talkful about Islam, it's when it's come to the slavery
and I've been trying to read about the slavery how
it's in the like, yeah, in the Christian Sorry mind,
it's not so good because I don't I don't speak
English regularly.
Speaker 4: That's okay, So I need just yeah, you're asking about
slavery and Christianity in the Bible.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I've been because I know when I was
last I was in Double Vice, and I bring this
topic up and they give me some of the words.
So when you just read it very firstly you seem okay,
Stone's fair. But then I did it like research. I
did it like back on. I checked the context. So
I get most of the answers. But there's one thing
I don't really get. It's when it's come to the
you know, throw me twenty one marry your slaves. Especially
there's one particularly in at the end of the sentence.
I don't really get it. It's like, if you're not
please with her, let her go. So what I need
to understand there iss twenty one.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe a misunderstanding.
Speaker 5: You do you to know me? Twenty one? It was
ten to fourteen nine.
Speaker 1: I guess okay, I'm over here at Derremania twenty one
ten or fourteen. It's not about marrying your slave. It's
about having two wives, one you hate, one you love.
Speaker 5: I can mix up with the number, but it's just.
Speaker 4: Marrying marrying a capital one.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, marning a captain, marrying the captain a
captive movement. So what I want to just basically.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I got yeah, good, yeah, yeah, you're right.
In my mind, I got a brain freeze. I want
to be You're right. I apologies. So what about it again?
Speaker 5: Okay? I want to understand from these words, is there
like consent?
Speaker 4: How did I get it from there?
Speaker 1: Let mean, yeah, I got to be comforted. I'm sorry,
I was thinking of another first having two wives. Sorry,
my friend, Hey, man, what you got me here for?
Speaker 4: Man?
Speaker 1: Thank you for my back. So go ahead. I just
wanted to know what you're talking about.
Speaker 5: Yes, this words, because basically now I'm trying to ask
Muslims also like when it comes to slavery, I've read
some and I.
Speaker 1: Don't saying I can't here, honestly I can't. What do
we say?
Speaker 12: Basically, he's asking in when it comes to the marrying
the captive woman, is there consent?
Speaker 9: There? Is she being forced?
Speaker 4: Is it about rape.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, no, that's not about rape. But I can
answer now chany do you want to say something or
you want to jump into that, it's up to you.
Speaker 11: Well, this is an argument a lot of people try
to bring up that Christianity allows rape. If you go
back to Genesis, the story with Dinah, I mean, rape
is already forbidden in Genesis. Rapees also forbidden in Mosaic law.
So this is captive women in warfare, and that you
had to treat them with certain levels of dignity, which,
by the way, was revolutionary in the ancient world. So no,
it's nothing to do with rape or prep bestent girls.
Speaker 5: Yep.
Speaker 1: In fact, if you screen share, if you've actually read
it in the context, if you want to scare my
screen I got it up. Okay, Sorry, I don't know
why I had a brain freeze about loving one Ahac
in my mind sometimes Okay, Doronomy twenty one ten or fourteen,
I was confusing with fifteen to seventeen. Oka, arge it free, buddy,
because I'm going to show you. I'm going to line
up two verses. So you heard what Jay said. Now
I'm going to show you from the passage what Jay said. Okay,
so you heard what he said. You're going to war.
Now you have women whose family right have died in war,
because that's what happens, whether we like or not. War
is part of life. This is the world we live in.
So we can't live in a fantasy where we're thinking
there won't be wars and there won't be people killed now,
unlike what we have in Islam. You know this in
Islam because I want to compare this law that comes
twenty twenty years before Mohammad with Mohammad, chapter fours twenty
four of the Crown. It says that you can take
even married women or are captive and sleep with them,
even with their husband's alive, and sell them.
Speaker 5: That's in Islam.
Speaker 1: That's chapter fours twenty four, and the sound headith so hey, Hadie,
Now I want you to see the difference here. They're
run to be twenty month in or fourteen. If you
go out about against your enemies. See it's a battle,
and now your God gives them over into your hands
and you take them away, take them away captive. Seeing
among the captives a beautiful woman, set your affection on her.
You take her as a wife. Number one. You can't
have sex with her. She's not a slave for you
to have sex with. That's number one. You have to
marry her, give her the status and dignity of a wife.
Then you shall bring her home to your house, and
you shall shave her head and trim her nails, so's
you're gonna let her mourn sign a morning. Now, this
also does another thing. If she shaves her head, she's bald.
This will make sure to be a deterrent. You're not
just lusting for her, right. Can you imagine a woman
to look like me? Bald? Would you want to marry
someone like me?
Speaker 9: Anyway?
Speaker 1: You get the point so far?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, time they think.
Speaker 1: She shall also move the clothes of her captivity. She
will remain your house and weep for her father mother
full month. Give her a whole month to moon family,
and after that you may go into her and be
her husband. She shall be your wife. Now watch the
difference here, and it'll be that if you do not
desire her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes,
But you shall certainly not sell her for money. You
shall not mistreat her because you have humbled her, meaning
because she was taken a captive. Now you divorce her.
She's not your property.
Speaker 4: Can't sell this.
Speaker 1: Unlike to snap, I can take women captive married women,
grape them, sell them. No, you can't do that. Now,
this is not twenty first century. At that time, in
those that culture, women for all intents and purposes, remain
in their father's houses until they were married. Then they
would remain in their husband's houses. And if they had
children and the husband die, then their children would protect them.
It is not like today where women can go get
their own apartment and do their own thing. A lot
of its historical culture contact women who are left o
would be the prey for predators, for people to come
and rape them and enslave them. This is actually a
you mean treatment because her family's killed. So you don't
then add insulting Julie injury. By take her as a
slave and graping her, you show her dignity and make
her a wife, giving her the full status and the
same rights of an is you like wife? But now
if you don't like each other, you don't like her,
and you divorce her, you gotta let her go. But
that's the same thing for wives in general.
Speaker 5: Here just a small point. You say, what what I
need to under from death.
Speaker 1: You gotta speak louder, I can't hear you if you
can't hear uh huh.
Speaker 5: So what I mean there from that was can she
have any saying like can she say yes or no?
At the same time, can sheild the divorce? Because that's
what I need to understand. Last three sentences.
Speaker 1: Like the last three sentences, even if you want to
go with that, she has no choice, which I'll answer that.
Why are you ignoring the fact that in that cultural
context to give her this kind of dignity and not
sell her as property was revolutionary? Are you getting that point?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, So what you're doing is you're reading
it from the twenty first century. You're not looking at
from its cultural context. The fact that he can't sell
her off as property, but must divorce her and then
allow her it to go watch her center away, is
not allowed to take her again to be his wife,
right she has been by not watch here to watch
her for that is an a moment. I'm sorry bringing
them say, I'm telling you I'm getting old, mister. Sorry, okay, okay,
not watch her anybody that if you do not desire
then you shall let her go. Wherever she wishes. Did
that not answer your question? She wishes? Did you not
see that part? It's her choice right here, you shall
let her go wherever she wishes. I was reading the
wrong one. Sorry, do you see that? Now?
Speaker 5: Answer you means, so she can't choose to stay or
she can go.
Speaker 1: So that's there's a divorce. Obviously she's not going to
stay married. But what it means is she is now
free to settle anywhere because she's not your property. She's
not a slave that you can just grape and sell
off like what Muslim's going to have to mention that
because this is twenty twenty years before the time of Muhammad.
So do we get that first point?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: So line of its cultural context, this is revolutionary and
it's not me saying it. You have even critical scholars
who study the ancient Near Eastern content that says this
law is revolutionary. Here, let me show it to you,
and I'm gonna answer your question. I'm not going bet.
I just want you to read carefully, not read it like,
oh my goodness, look Gotha. Yeah, because you're dealing with
a different context right here. Let me bring it up
a note on the humanitarian character of Doronomy twenty one
ten or fourteen. Right here it is let me just
read one commentary where you go. The law focuses on
the rights of the woman by stating that the man
who marries a female president of war and subsequently becomes
to satisfied with her for whatever reasons, is not permitted
to reduce her to slavery. Such a woman had legal
rights in ancient Israel, and moral obligations ensue from the
fact that the man initiated sexual relationship with her. Perhaps
the most significant conclusion to draw from this text is
the respect for the person of a captured woman. You
got it. Primary concern laws.
Speaker 5: Of the Dorouna.
Speaker 1: Is for protecting the poor and vulnerable in society from
exploitation on the part of the powerful. So this was
actually a way of protecting her from being exploited. So
in light of its context, it's revolutionary is another one.
This law exceptionally seeks to provide for the human rights
of the woman who falls into this predicament. The vermina
is also something useful rape not in this context, though,
and its employment here stringently suggests that the sexual exploitation
of captain woman even in a legally sanctioned arrangement of
concubinage is equivalent to rape. See God to saying if
you take a woman as a slave and then you
force yourself on her, you're raping her just because she's
a captive. So you can't do that. You must treat
her as a woman, give her the rights of a wife,
and treat her like an Israelite woman. So, if I
read in its context, this was revolutionary, showing you that
God not only cares for Israeite woman, he cares for
gentile women. Do we get that first point?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: The second point to answer your question, this is where
we have a problem in that when the Bible is written,
these instructions were to be explained by the priests and
they would have to deal with situations not clearly spend
out in the law, meaning the law given is a summary,
succinct part of life that the priest would then have
to take by a case by case baby basis and
explain and apply for circumstances not covered in the law.
In other words, what I'm saying is the question of
her choice or not it's not addressed here. But that
doesn't mean she did not have a choice. It means
I don't have enough of the background because I'm not
there with Moses and the priest to know what Moses
would have said to them orally, I only have what
is written. But the principle is here. Let me show
you the principle. Let me show what the principle is.
That you cannot force her against her will right here again,
right then you shall let her go wherever she wishes.
See that principle says she's a human with dignity and
value and you must respect her desires. So that's what
I can tell you.
Speaker 5: Great, that's like one of the things because I've been
reading this and this last point that I couldn't really understand.
So thank you for explaining.
Speaker 1: You understand and it's context's revolutionary.
Speaker 5: You know, I need to like understand it again. I
will listen it back. But from what I get right now,
this part with what she wishes, it's explained a lot
because that's not in the love like just exactly like
she I know, lots of hadits like where it's you're
not like you cannot marry them because they say, I know,
they use one of the work from the Kuran, like
Maddy the right hand processes, but it's not regular like yeah,
because they use that as an argument like you have
to marry them also, but I know some of the habits.
Speaker 1: You know, in four twenty four it says forbiden to
your married women except your right hands possess. So that
means if there's a married woman, I can take her,
if she's my right I'm possession and marry her. Why
am I marrying her when she's already married? See that
doesn't make sense?
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know because even the prophet he have like
wives and concubines, so they were there. Yeah, if they
were wives, so why should they counted as the wife's
It wouldn't be there concumbines.
Speaker 1: But you see the difference between Islam and that kurands
not only you can take single women captive and grape
them and sell them off, even if they're married.
Speaker 5: You can do that.
Speaker 1: Notice the difference here. You can't take a married woman
who's already married. She's got to be a single woman.
That's why it says who'shi mourning? Her father and mother
doesn't say husband, only a woman who's single, and then
you marry her. You don't even grape her and you
can't sell her. You can't touch your section as you
marry her. This was revolutionary at that time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because if you know, also they in Hadid like
you sell your both the slaves and the mother of
the slaves, which also contradicts because you're not allowed to
if you have a child from a slave woman, you're
not allowed to sell them. U valid, But it also
contradicts in the Hadid where the people practice that like
two centuries like up to a smum and then they
change it.
Speaker 1: But that's a different Yeah. But brother, that's what I
can tell you.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 1: Remember we have to be careful. Just because something not
spelled out in the law doesn't mean that's it. Because
the historical context, this law was given to the priests,
they were instructed by Moses and Aaron. They would have
to be thoroughly instructed on how to apply the letter
of the law because there'd be situations now address law,
and the priest would have to know how to then
apply each command to each situation. It's much more complex.
All we have is a written record. This was a
living community that took the law, and this law would
have to be expounded and explained and applied by the
priest and as well as the prophets. But anyway, that's
my answer, thank you.
Speaker 5: One last question also, I won't take it time. So
there's also you know about this when it's come to life.
How is Bible reliable in that case? Because what I understand,
the Bible is not changed. But they are like, like,
if you can explain to me, like because people always
use this argument, you know, as a Muslim, they said,
Bible is change. You cannot trust all these different versions.
So just a quick explanation, like how can I trust?
Because the first thing for me was like if Jesus
God or not? So I'm almost convinced about it because
I've seen many of your debates or not. Okay, but yeah,
so I've seen those arguments and I've seen your lives.
In that case, I'm sure. But the last point of
what I do understrand is Bible reliable? Like because of
these different versions whish to bring up I would like
to hear from you.
Speaker 1: He's convinced that the Bible that's shore Jesus is God,
but he doesn't know if he can trust the authority
the Bible. What because he's convinced the Bible Jesus is
God going Bible. But that's the question, why should we
trust the Bible? Now, Jay, you want to say anything,
don't want to keep hog because I feel like I'm
haugging everything.
Speaker 11: No, I'm happy with you answer giving great answers. I
was just going to say, although it's not exactly what
he's arguing. The other day we had a bunch of
atheists trying to make a similar type of argument. All
the babble condones rape. Deuteronomy says, you can you know
rape and all this, it's not true. Genesis thirty four,
in the story of Shikham and Dinah, it specifically says,
in verse I think seven or eight, six and seven,
it says that they were shocked and furious because Sheikha
had done an outrageous thing in Israel by raping Jacob's daughter.
I think that should never be done. So it's just
simply not true that a lot of these you know, Muslims,
borrow atheist arguments and they try to say that Deuteronomy
and all this, it's just not true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lord of Gods. So to answer your question, you
ready for the answer, Yeah, I can't can here?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Because it's just a quick note only because
i'd be reading you can explain this this johann in Koma.
I think I believe it says like.
Speaker 1: Like brother, let me, let me, let's use some common sense. First,
John five seven, that's what you're talking about. How would
I know if it's not authentic? If I didn't have
enough manuscripts to tell me what John actually wrote? Answer
that question for me. Okay, you just said they said
see for John five seven, the word says there are
three that record heaven. The Father would only spirit these
fair one. Okay, see it's not authentic. How do you
know it's not authentic? Authentic? If you don't know what
John originally wrote? What's the answer.
Speaker 5: I don't get to your question. Sorry, can you repeat
it again?
Speaker 1: How do you know? First, John five seven is not authentic?
Speaker 5: You don't know if you don't have the original or
if you don't have that.
Speaker 1: In other words, you don't know what he originally wrote. Yeah,
for me, it as say this is not authentic, means
I know what he originally wrote.
Speaker 5: True? Yeah.
Speaker 1: Secondly, how do I know what he originally wrote? Because
this is a fact, I'm gonna have to go off
camera for a second. Sorry, But because I got a
cat we have. This is I need you to listen
because this is something even skeptics admit. We have over
twenty five thousand manuscripts of the books of the Bible
in various languages. We have over five thousand, nearly ten
thousand Latin. We have about five three hundred copies in
Greek of the New Testament. Then you have all these versions.
What's my point, these copies different languages, written at different
times in different places by different individuals. If you compare them,
the variations or what we expect when you copy by hand,
you may have to Does that mean there?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it might be you, isn't me?
Speaker 5: Where's it?
Speaker 4: Crum though, I don't hear any.
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm here, Brett Okay, anyway, I think man, I
got a gin in my computer. Anyway, Now, if you're listening,
Seekert want you to listen to this. Okay. If something
is copied by hand, something's copied by hand, you're gonna
expect copyists. They're gonna make mistakes. That's just part of copy.
That's true of every book written prior to the printing press.
It's true of Koran manuscripts. No Koran manuscripts are identical
that's true of everything. So having variations does not mean
the Bible has been corrupted. So we don't know what
it says because ninety nine percent of the differences are
basic spelling mistakes that copyists would make. But you can
tell from that error what the text says. And that's
ninety nine percent of the variant readings.
Speaker 9: This is a fact.
Speaker 1: I'm not making it that. You can go search Daniel
Wallace Mark Ermant. Now with that said, you can take
a copy of John written in a second century, you
get another copy of John written in the ninth century.
You look at John one, second century.
Speaker 5: John one night.
Speaker 1: Just I'm giving you just an example. You're gonna see
John one in the second century says the same thing
that John one in the ninth century says. It's going
to say in the beginning was the word, the word
was good with God, the word became flesh. In other words,
the variant readings do not give us a different message,
a different theology, a different look to the books. They
all look the same, read the same, and they have
the same message. That just the fact. For the argument
of Muslims to work, you'd have to show a copy
of John that John one reads so differently that when
I look at another copy of John one, they're contradicting
each other about the word that this copy says in
the beginning was the word and he was created? Ooh,
and he didn't becomes flush. That would be different than
from a copy in the beginning was the word, the
word was gone word, it became flesh. So this is
where people are pulling a fast one. The variants do
not change the message of the books. They already say.
That's why even in your English versions, I can look
at NIV, John one, King James John one, it's the
same message. That's why they can only give you a
few examples. Okay, they give me for John five to seven.
What about the rest of for John five? Do they
all agree? Yeah, they all agree. So you looked at
one verse, that's questionable. But what about verses one of
six and verses eight all the way to twenty one?
Do they all agree read the same?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 1: How come they don't mention that.
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 5: Because we're gonna if I'm coming from a Muslim background,
you know there we says what you said, one of
them cannot be changed. So you say, if there are different.
Speaker 1: Versions, what does it mean for the word of God
to be changed. If you mean what if God can't
be changed? Mean there can't be varian ratings. We know
that can't be the true because the Muslims say there
are different Arabic versions of the Crown, and the manses
Chrown have variant readings.
Speaker 5: So what do you mean can't be changed? No, I
will explain to you what I'm trying to say. From
my understanding from the Bible. Does it mean like as
long as the message is the same, but it can
be different wording, it can be differing like how because
from my understanding, if something is what of God, it
had to be like a copy like that you have
to be a replict.
Speaker 1: I want to answer me from your understanding, what book
that claims to be God's word would then pass your test?
Speaker 5: I believe before like it have to be Kurong because
that's like one of the.
Speaker 1: Union in fantasy Alan right, Because I just explained, brother,
you know I love you, I swear I love you.
I know I'm going to show you more love. What
part did you not get that? Even in Islamic sources
and the Arabic copies of the kron there are thousands
of variations among them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but this is not like pro basics. Most Slams
don't know because you know, I'm not Arabic. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Am I talking to Mohammadi Jaba, I'm talking to you?
Speaker 5: Okay? For me, I didn't know. But it's recently and recently.
Speaker 1: According to your standard. If it's word of God has
to be a perfect replicant of variations, which religious book
will pass your test? None at the moment, So then
become agnostic. That's what you're That's what happened to bard Ermann.
Instead of telling me what it means for the words
of God not to change. Can you let God tell
you instead of you telling God how you should do it?
So if God says his words cannot change, and he
shows you how, when he has the Bible books copy
and mass produce and spread all over the world, because
that's where we are with the Bible, right, and all
these copies are all over the world, which makes it
humanly impossible. Listen to me, for one man to find
all the copies, gather them up, burn them, destroy them,
and make his own version. That would have been a miracle.
Speaker 5: Right yeah, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: How does God preserve the words, not by giving you
a perfect replica, by making sure the books were mass copied,
spread all over the world, making it impossible for all
these books to be gathered destroyed. So you standize one
copy that you like and you force it on mankind.
So if you change your copy, I got a thousand
other copies that tell me this verse says this, you're
the one who has a different reading. Oh so it's
not lost, it's there. That's how God did it.
Speaker 5: So that's some kind to under sense. So the important
is the message and not the wording, because I know,
just because I know I've been seeing some of them
video there. It's some what you say in the Bible,
and there was I think Shaft's money. He used to
always use it, like how many the age or something
or the geneology. You know that it's no.
Speaker 1: Brother, that's even misleading on his part. Yes, I know
about the age twenty two or forty two, But what
he doesn't tell you is there are copies that have
forty two and other copies of twenty two. That's the variation.
So even the original number is preserved, one of them
is the right number.
Speaker 5: You see.
Speaker 1: This is why when people bring up these arguments, they
tell me they do what we're talking about. In other words,
I have two copies of Chronicles. Let's say one says
forty two. One says twenty two. Right there, one of
them has the original number. But then I'll go compare
it with let's say Kings and their copies say twenty two. Now,
watch out world, two copies of Chronicles. One says twenty two,
forty two. Now someone made a mistake, because they can't
be both right. Now, how do I know if it's
forty two to twenty two? Then I look at Kings
and their copies say twenty two. Oh, so it's twenty two.
So this copy is wrong. Why because if you don't
know how copyists work. In Hebrew, there are no numbers.
Letters represent numbers. So what if someone when he writes
out he spells out the letter twenty two in a
way that the guy who comes after him thinks it
says forty two. But the readings is still there, the
number of twenty two is still there. We have a variation.
Now we have to determine. Okay, obviously this is a
copyist error. But we have copies saying twenty two, and
then we have Kings Apparel is saying twenty two. It's
twenty two. The copyist made a mistake. Where is anything long?
The original number is still preserved in the manuscripts.
Speaker 5: It's because you know how you see the Bible, how
you see the kron My thinking comes from the Quran.
The word of God cannot be like mistakes. That's what
I'm bringing up these arguments. But what I understand now
from the Bible is more important the message and not
these different variations. That's what I'm trying to understand. And yeah,
that's like what my position right now.
Speaker 4: It looks like, say I'm froze.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so just lasting, So what what you should should
I do at the moment? Because I've been like, yeah,
for me, I believe they have to be God because
you know, I'm not like eighties in that manner. And
at the same time, I believe I need to follow
some religion and at the moment, which is like like
the number one is right now Christianity. But I'm still unsure.
So what because I've seen my friends they told me
that you will you will see many signs like you will,
because how do I know, like what is the sign?
Like how to see those signs.
Speaker 1: Just to let you know, guys, on my personal hotspot,
my internet connection crash is becoming on tellment, so I'm
using personal hot spot. So what's up? Good?
Speaker 4: Sorry, I think he's asking me.
Speaker 5: What does he do?
Speaker 4: Now go ahead and repeat your question.
Speaker 1: But did he get my answer? Because I didn't. I lost. Yeah,
he understand. I get your answer. You understand now how
the Bible's preserve. It's not lost, it's in the manuscript tradition.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I get it. And I told before you leave,
I told him that for me, how to know, like
which religion to choose, because I really want to choose,
Like you know, I'm a practicing like what you said,
I believe in God, but I still don't know which
religion to choose. And my friends told me like in Christianity,
you will see some sign when it comes to like
like the Holy Spirit will show you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's sometimes doesn't what So.
Speaker 5: I'm thinking, like, like how, like what's the next step,
like how to know how to be sure?
Speaker 11: I was start looking at the prophecies. I would start
reading the Bible, you know, look into uh, how Jesus
fulfills these prophecies all throughout the Old Testament. I would
start with that. In fact, Sam and I have done
multiple podcasts back in the in the day talking about Messy.
Any prophecies is a great evidence of you know, Jesus
fulfilling these predictions. So that'll boost your faith, That'll give
you some surety. And I would start reading the Gospels too.
Speaker 5: Because you know, I've been seeming like it seems catchy,
but I see lots of cross you know, like I've
been like two years, so I think in this two years,
I've been like seeing across ten times, like on different places.
So that's I'm trying to connect it.
Speaker 11: I wouldn't base my choice of religion on whether I
see crosses everywhere. You really need to ground it in
something that's not that subjective. You need to ground it
in the Bible and the predictions of the Messiah.
Speaker 5: No I've been I've not been reading the Bible, but
I've seen all your lives, so especially shake logic. I
follow lots of his lives, and each time I listen,
I get more and more like what you say, I
feel more and more connected. And this is the reason
why I'm coming here to talk, so to get a
chance and speak freely because it's different from listening and
to talking to you guys.
Speaker 13: Yeah, well yeah, well, so what what Jay is alluding to, Man,
I don't know if you've seen the streams where I
walk through with my Muslim friends through the messy and
prophecies of Jesus, the prophecies that show that Jesus truly
is the Messiah.
Speaker 12: What he will do, where he'll be born, what his
mission exactly is, and how Jesus in the first century
fulfilled those scriptures that mentioned him a thousand years before
and seven hundred years before. What Jay is referring to
is we have something where we can point to where
it's without a shadow of a doubt.
Speaker 4: Whether I agree with it or you agree with it,
it doesn't matter what position we have. This is a
fact that God actually spoke in history and what he
spoke was fulfilled.
Speaker 12: And this is something we can verify. It's not guesswork,
it's not oh blind faith. We can literally look at
God mentioned and speak in history and we see it
fulfilled in Jesus Christ. And so that's what Jay's referring
to him. You can know, you can today, you can
know that this is the truth because you can see
that God truly has spoken. You don't have this in Islam,
you don't have this in Hindu Us, you don't have
this anywhere else.
Speaker 4: God's fingerprint is his prophecy. No nobody else can do. Amen.
Speaker 1: Amen, Sorry guys, I lost connection. But see, I just
want to make sure come from you understood about the
very gratings do not falsify. But you see, even the
original warnings is preserved in manuscripts.
Speaker 5: Right. Yeah, I think I understand because I get your point.
But as I told you, I need to like check
the life again and I will try to understand. And
if there's something, I will let you know. I see
your skype if it's possible, if I can, yeah.
Speaker 1: Let me know what's do and we can come up
and talk about. But yeah, all right, but God, brother,
I just want to make sure because I lost connection twice. Yeah,
what you guys want?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's all for me. I will maybe come next time.
Let's see if I will be like have some thing
in them, but I will.
Speaker 12: Yeah, before you go, seeker, have you have you seen
the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled?
Speaker 9: Have you seen those yet?
Speaker 5: I think there was life between you and a Muslim
lady I think you show them I've seen like because yeah,
because your life used to be it's I've seen some
of them, but I don't know. I mean, but I've
seen those and especially how to see Jesus, like all
these prophecies. But I need to see the whole video. Yeah,
because I've just seen some not like the whole video,
but I've seen some minutes of it.
Speaker 12: Yes, well yeah, well yeah check it out, man, go
watch it again and go through the verses that I
pull up.
Speaker 4: Because, like I said, you.
Speaker 12: Don't have to be, you know, in a space where
you don't know anymore. This is a way that you
can know without a shadow of a doubt, who the
true God is.
Speaker 4: And this is one of his proofs, one of his proofs.
He even says this in the Old Testament. He says,
you know, challenging the false gods and idols, he says,
tell them to call the end from the beginning like
I do. Right.
Speaker 12: He challenges them to prophesy to proclaim the future because
they can't do it, so this shows that they're false gods.
So just encouraging you, man, check this out. This is
something you can hold on to to know who the
true God.
Speaker 4: Really is okay, Yeah, I really thank you again, good evening,
Thank you, thanks for coming. All right, So that was
Seeker gentlemen. We got a few more guests up to you, guys.
We did hit the three hour mark. You guys still
got a little bit of time. We could do a
couple more.
Speaker 1: What wants to do?
Speaker 11: I can go some more.
Speaker 4: Let's let's do it, all right.
Speaker 12: Sorry, let's bring up a couple more. Man, Let's see
what we got here? All right, So let's bring up mole.
How you doing Mullich? The ancient human sacrifice?
Speaker 11: We're talking? I never thought I'd be debating the demon?
Speaker 4: But okay, can hear us? Can you hear us? I
see you on muting, but no sound is coming out?
Bro al right, going once, going twice? All right, try
to come back when you got that sound fixed. Let's
bring up we got off made here?
Speaker 9: I'd mad? How you doing.
Speaker 4: Off? Mad?
Speaker 14: Yeah?
Speaker 4: We're I'm just the Australian Blake. Oh you was here earlier.
Speaker 12: He was Pressure project, just kicking hanging out all right,
So let me let me bring on somebody else to see.
Speaker 9: Omar omar, sir?
Speaker 3: Can you hear me?
Speaker 9: There?
Speaker 4: We go.
Speaker 15: A so I got a little questions to get answers
from me, so I got.
Speaker 16: Mark ten eighteen. It says Jesus talk himself good and.
Speaker 15: Then creates like a distinction. But why does he create
that distinction when he calls himself?
Speaker 9: Mm hmm, Jay, were going to tackle that.
Speaker 11: I didn't hear what he said.
Speaker 12: He said he's talking about Mark ten eighteen, Mark two eighteen.
Why why does Jesus make a distinction between yeah, God
been good?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Why is it?
Speaker 16: Why is it created distinction?
Speaker 11: You mean the text where he says there's none good,
but God is everything about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, I mean, that's just hell.
Speaker 16: He calls himself, what's it called? Like?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 16: He says he isn't good and the Father is only good.
Speaker 4: He didn't say he says, why do you call me good?
Speaker 11: Right?
Speaker 15: Why he was to be him and the Father to
be God? Why wouldn't he say that he's also good?
Speaker 6: Answer?
Speaker 11: You think you have a He does say he's good.
Speaker 1: Yeahs okay, answer. Let him finish this point because this
is not new. It's Mark ten, seventeen eighteen. But there's
a parallel of Matthew nineteen sixteen seventeen. Luke k A
ten eighteen nineteen. So to let you know we've been
there doing that, we retired the T shirt. Let him
answer good?
Speaker 11: Yeah me or him?
Speaker 15: Oh no, No, you're not answering it like I want you
to tell me why he calls himself?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Why are you upset about it? Because you sound angry?
Because when I show you it doesn't mean that he
shows you that. You're gonna say Mohammed is bad then
because if God is good, Mamma is not God, then
Mammed is garbage?
Speaker 5: What?
Speaker 16: No, because you call Jesus God.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna show you that Jesus claimed that, me
and him. But I want you to then say, since
Jesus said only God is good, that means Mamma is garbage. Also, wait, wait,
don't run, wait it's oh we're gonna I really can't
hear you. Okay, listen to what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: I'm good.
Speaker 1: Okay, Oh my listen, I know you're young listening. When
Jay and I show you that Jesus was not saying
He's not good, We're gonna get there. But then are
you gonna admit since jes said only God is good,
Mama is not God? That Mama is garbage.
Speaker 16: No, because Mohammed that never called himself.
Speaker 1: Okay, The point is that if you're going to claim
that Jesus is gone.
Speaker 11: Your argument. We understand what you're saying. So if you're
going to say that, on one level, the first point
we're making is you're going to say that Jesus is
literally saying that no one else is good except for God,
then that means none of the prophets were good, and
it means that Mohammad was not a prophet. He wasn't good.
So clearly it doesn't mean that that's the first point.
Speaker 16: Yeah, but I don't claim I don't claim Mohammed is gone.
Speaker 4: I claim him as a parent good. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 11: I forget God. Right, So if Jesus is saying that
no one is good except for God, and then Mohammad
is also not good.
Speaker 1: Right, and we're going to send you to Mecca to
play with dolls, let's see.
Speaker 9: As a lag.
Speaker 4: I think he's lagging, honestly.
Speaker 1: Because Omar.
Speaker 11: Ill I understand.
Speaker 1: Listen to what he's saying. We understand that you don't good,
brother God.
Speaker 11: Jas I'm sorry, sorry, We understand that you don't believe
that Mohammed is God. We're making a point that if
you're gonna read this in a in a strict literal
way and that it's not hyperbole, which, by the way,
Jesus uses hyperbole all the time, then what Jesus is
saying is that literally, no one is good except for God,
including none of the Old Testament prophets, including Jesus himself,
and including Muhammad, none of them are good. Doesn't that
seem absurd?
Speaker 16: Now? It seems absurd is that.
Speaker 9: He's cutting in and out his connection.
Speaker 16: That's what's absurd.
Speaker 12: It's okay, guys, it's okay. Hey, oh Ma, your your
connection is too bad for you to engage. I'm gonna
move on, man, you gotta get your connection.
Speaker 4: Good, all right.
Speaker 9: I'm gonna bring up Joe Davis.
Speaker 4: What's up, Joe? You a Muslim?
Speaker 1: Joe?
Speaker 9: You're on stage?
Speaker 5: Man?
Speaker 4: All right, Let's try mole like one more time or mulec.
I think it's Mulep Mulec. You're good, you're on stage, mulch.
All right. So your sound is still not working, Okay,
I see you're not working.
Speaker 9: All right. Well, it looks like we ran.
Speaker 4: Out of guests with with working equipment and connection. We
done ran through everybody.
Speaker 12: If you are if you are a Muslim, shoot, if
you're a Hebrew is a light watching, you can come
on ups up, break it up. If you're if your
Hebrew is a light, you can come on up. If
you are a oneness modoral list, you.
Speaker 9: Could come on up.
Speaker 12: If you believe that Jesus is the Father, you can.
If you're a Jehovah's witness, you can come up. I'm
going to open up the panel Muslims, Jehovah's witnesses oneness,
if you want to come up your oneness, come on up.
Tell us how Jesus is the Father, how the Trinity
is not true? Matter of fact, let me go ahead
and change the pen. I'm going to change the pen
to nontrinitarians. If you're a nontrinitarian, you believe the Bible,
you're nontrinitarian. Or if you're a Muslim, you're welcome to
join the station. Let me go ahead, and it's this
up here.
Speaker 1: Sure, that's nice. That's why we got it one day
just for anti trinitarians.
Speaker 9: Bro, Yeah, we got to do it for an anti trinity.
Speaker 1: Islam is too boring, you see you challenge the heavy edders.
No one showed up right there, let's solved my prophecy.
Speaker 9: They fulfilled your prophecy, brother.
Speaker 1: More more profit than Mohammad was.
Speaker 9: Yes, unfortunately. Yeah, that means we gotta follow you.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 9: All right, there's the link.
Speaker 12: Ladies and gents, non trinitarians, come all through mine, come
all through, and come put Sam in this place, come refute.
Speaker 9: J All right, I forgot. I mean, I mean, how
you doing?
Speaker 17: Hello?
Speaker 3: How are you doing?
Speaker 5: I'm pretty good of you?
Speaker 17: How are you?
Speaker 8: And I've also a question? And if imagine talking about
it in Bible chapter twenty nine twelve Isaiah, Yeah, Isaiah,
but we believe in the older version of Greek, there's.
Speaker 17: More intur it. One word is more into it. Do
you believe it? Do you believe that?
Speaker 9: Do I believe?
Speaker 5: What?
Speaker 11: In Greek?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 8: In the Greek there's one more word in the Bible
that doesn't talk.
Speaker 5: That is like x I p A.
Speaker 4: What is he talking about?
Speaker 12: This guy he's talking about he's talking about the word
x I p a.
Speaker 4: And in the subtulogen of Isaiah twenty nine.
Speaker 18: Twel ip a, what is the he's saying that that's
a word in the Greek that when you put it
in and you translate it, it translates to Hera.
Speaker 12: So they're going to say that it's it's it's talking
about the Cave of Hero, That's what he's saying.
Speaker 11: I mean, I think this prophecy is about I believe,
and it's a prophecy about Pentecost. If you read the chapter,
it's predicting the fact that the Jews will all speak
in a language that the other Jews want. The Apostles
will speak in a language at Pentecost that the rest
of the Jews won't understand. They'll be blinded and stumbled.
So the whole chapter twenty nine, these are predictions of
Pentecost and the Apostles.
Speaker 17: Yeah, that's looks like been talking about back.
Speaker 5: What do you? I love?
Speaker 1: You want to Christ and believe that? I want to
kiss your.
Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you want to hear my answer? You want to
we can talk?
Speaker 17: Yeah, I would like to hear your answer.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're read twelve, right, Yeah? Can you read
eleven and thirteen? What you'll read? I say twenty eleven
thirteen for.
Speaker 8: Me, eleven thirteen, and I really I will do research
about it, you know, I read. I haven't read the
Bible research.
Speaker 1: Can you read eleven and thirteen?
Speaker 17: I mean I'm on phone.
Speaker 1: Oh, I'll read it for you because I also read.
Speaker 17: Yeah, it's okay, you can okay?
Speaker 1: Can I also watch?
Speaker 4: This is for you?
Speaker 1: Okay? Here, what's okay? Okay, now you're ready? Yeah, speen share?
Can you screenshare?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Screen ship your oddy twelve it's on about someone in
Hira writer. This is what you're telling me. Then the
book will be given to the one who does not
know how to read a book, saying please read this.
And you'll say I do not know how to read
a book. Right, So that's supposed to be. And the
Greek has a ra so it's okay, all right, so
this is Muhammad, right supposedly, but can you tell me
who the prophet of verse eleven is? The prophet of
verse eleven.
Speaker 4: Living?
Speaker 17: This is muffy. I can read.
Speaker 1: The entire vision like, okay, good, if you want to
read it, read, thank you, sir. Can I also wash
your clothes? The entire vision will be to you like
the words of a seal book, which when they give
it to one who is a literate, literate saying please
read this. He will say I cannot for its sealed.
So I follow the Muslims. There are going to be
two prophets. One prophet can read, but the book is okay,
I can't read it. The other one is Muhammad. So
who's the first prophet? What's his name?
Speaker 17: I believe that he's a perfect Muhammad's Actually.
Speaker 1: So you you are a special kind of stupid because
in the first one it says he can read, So
momma can read.
Speaker 17: Yeah, he couldn't read. If you go to the crime.
Speaker 1: A question, buddy, here my question. The first one can read.
It says someone who can read literate. Could your prophet
read or is he only illiterate?
Speaker 17: No, he cannot read.
Speaker 1: Okay, So who is this prophet in verse eleven? Okay,
that can read a book and he's given the book?
Speaker 5: Who is he?
Speaker 17: Who is he he can read?
Speaker 1: Let me give me send this guy to make it
kiss blackstone because he's not good. Okay, when he kiss
the black ston, say hi.
Speaker 5: To me for me.
Speaker 11: I apologize. I didn't even realize that that this guy
thought this was about Muhammad. I thought he was asking
what is the verse about? And Jesus explains in the
New Testament he cites this very text about the Pharisees
being blinded because they didn't understand that the Sealed Book
is the Old Testament, prophecies of him has absolutely nothing
to do with Mohammad.
Speaker 1: Sure, the Greek says hero, come.
Speaker 4: On, yeah, talk about the gave gave Bahamas in all right.
Speaker 12: So again, guys, the linc is penned. If you are
a non Trinitarian, you are welcome to come on up.
If you are a Hebrew Israelite, if you are a
oneness modalist, you believe that Jesus is the Father, the
Holy Spirit is the Father. You believe they're all the
same person. You reject the Trinity. You're welcome to come up,
hit that link, come challenge us. And of course, if
you're a Muslim, if you are a Jehovah's witness or
any type of area, you can come up and gauge
with us and show us why you believe that your
position is correct. Until then, oh all right, so we
got somebody named Wait, why didn't we stuff will changeing it?
Speaker 4: Why do you change your name? It's time for you
to go. You don't confuse me. Thanks for coming to me.
Speaker 9: In the meantime, jay I have a question for you.
Speaker 12: Okay, So someone posed this question and I said that
they can come and they can ask the question.
Speaker 4: On today's stream.
Speaker 12: It was about the hypostatic union, and so they were
they asked with with the three persons sharing the same
divine mind, they were asking, how is it? How does
it work when they communicate? If they if they have
one mind, how are they communicating with each other?
Speaker 11: Then?
Speaker 4: How is it just not the same? I guess, thing
just talking to itself? I guess.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 11: So, even though we talk about in trinitarian theology, we
talk about what's called in separability of actions, and this
is something that for example, William Lane Craig doesn't believe.
He believes that there are separate, separable minds and actions
and wills. One reason that he might think that has
to do with his open appollinarian position. So as Orthodox
we would disagree with that. But the reason I bring
all that up is because there's a distinction in theology
between the thing quah thing or the thing the way
that it exists or what it is versus the mode
of its existence. And even though that might sound a
little obscure, it becomes really important in theology and Christology
by the time of Saint Maximus. A lot of his theology,
for example, deals with tropos in Greek war mode. And
this relates to trinitary and theology too, because we might
talk about, for example, God having one will because he
has one essence in the trinity, but that doesn't mean
that there's not a distinction between the will in itself
versus the mode in which the will exists. So the
mode in which these things exist is in the persons
that have that will. So even though there's one will
in God, that the mode of that willing is personal
or hypostatic. So it's the persons that will. It's the
persons that actualize or have the mind of God. So
the mystery involved in that in that, even though the
mind is common to all three persons, it's still a
mind that's uniquely had by the Father, uniquely had by
the Son, and uniquely had by the Spirit. So they
really do communicate amongst one another, and they do they
you know, the Father really does, for example, communicate to
the son everything that the son has, and they really
do share the same mind. But that same mind is
had or exists in the mode of the Father and
the Son, and the spirit who uniquely have it. That's
what mode is. So it's a both and it's none
either or. But if you're like smile Willing Crag like
he just he doesn't really think about mode. He just
thinks of it as like a person is just a mind,
and so if there's three persons, there's three minds, there
has to therefore be three wills. Right, So he's led
in that kind of a conclusion because this is what
Apollinaris did in the early Church, is that he waits
personhood to a trait or an attribute, and Initarian theology,
we can't do that. We have to have personhood being
more than just a trait, an attribute, or a feature
of nature. It has to be something above and beyond
the nature. And that's why body or excuse me, will mind.
These are properties or attributes of the divine essence that
all three persons share, but they uniquely instantiate that one
property or that one will in their mode of being,
which is hypostatic or personal. So me give you another
example this which will help solidify it. For example, a creation.
We know the creation is an act of God, but
it's trinitarian in the way that it comes about well,
how does one God act in a trinitarian way? And
it's not three different actions. This is why we say
that it's from the Father, through the Son, and in
the spirit. So the creation of the world is one
God acting, but it's uniquely actualized by the three persons
in their roles or modes. So they do have unique roles.
When I say role or it is not modalism. Modalism
is the thing. So this is roles is a better way.
Rol e is a better way to think of it.
In the same way that the Father has a unique
role in the one act of creating, the Son has
a unique role in that one act of creating, and
the Spirit has a unique role in that one act
of creating. It's the same with redemption. The Father sends
the son, the son does the role proper to him
to die or undergo death in the human nature that
he has, and the Spirit has a unique role in
redemption to sanctify. But it's one trinitarian action to do that.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah? Absolutely? Nice?
Speaker 12: Okay, all right, so in that we've got some people
just willing to come up, So let's go.
Speaker 5: Dexter.
Speaker 12: You're on stage. How you doing dexter, Dexter, you're on
the panel, Dexter going once.
Speaker 11: Is about to kill us all because he's.
Speaker 1: Greedy.
Speaker 4: Gentlemen, Can everybody hear me?
Speaker 19: Yes, we can hear you. How you doing by God's grace?
Hold him steady? How we all doing?
Speaker 9: Awesome? Awesome, We're blessed you. You rejected Trinity?
Speaker 19: Yes, I do, although I understand some of the concept
and ideologies with regards to the Trinity, but biblically, it
doesn't It doesn't fit the Yeah, the norm of the Gospel.
If I can say that way, Okay, So I do believe. Uh,
maybe maybe if I can approach this with maybe just
a specific question and then I can talk.
Speaker 4: I had a question for you because I want to
know where you're coming from. So do you do you
believe that Jesus is God?
Speaker 9: Do your firm his deity?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 11: I believe Jesus is God.
Speaker 4: Do you believe he's the Father?
Speaker 11: No? I do not believe he's the Father.
Speaker 12: Okay, So you believe that Jesus is God, you believe
he's distinct from the Father, and you believe the Father
is God as well?
Speaker 11: Right, that's correct.
Speaker 4: So do you believe in two different gods. I believe
in the Father and the Son. Do you do you
believe there are two different gods?
Speaker 19: So I think I think that's where the challenge is
with regards to the god Head, and in certain levels,
I believe that that that the Father is above.
Speaker 4: All, greater than all, But I believe.
Speaker 19: There's a distinction in the Son in that the Son,
as the scripture says, is created.
Speaker 4: I believe the Son doesn't say he's created.
Speaker 12: Well, So, just to be clear in your position, Dexter,
do you believe that the Father and the Son are
two different gods?
Speaker 4: Or do you believe they're one and the same God.
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: No, I believe that I believe they are two different gods.
Speaker 1: He's an aryan god. You just said Jesus is created.
So what about the Holy Spirit?
Speaker 4: I believe I don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person.
Speaker 5: You what?
Speaker 11: I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person?
Speaker 1: So which one of those who want us to tackle
the fact that you think the Bible teaches guys as
a creature? And I hope you're not going to quote
Proverbs eight twenty two Colossians different?
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 4: No, no, okay?
Speaker 1: So which one are you? One?
Speaker 5: Of us.
Speaker 1: You want to tackle well before we out because we
can hear your child in the background. Can you maybe
I have your wife take her out of them because
we can hear them.
Speaker 4: Yes, bear with me my apology, sir.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's an arian, he told you please, He's creature,
created your witness, all right, because he said.
Speaker 4: No, I'm not.
Speaker 11: I'm not Jehovah witness either.
Speaker 1: But you do believe like them because you believe the
police spirit is not a person.
Speaker 19: That's that's something I recently, uh discovered. I didn't know
that they some did believe in that, but that's something
I've recently discovered.
Speaker 1: So what's the proof that crisis created?
Speaker 6: Uh?
Speaker 1: Revelations three fourteen doesn't help your Okay? So if you
don't go.
Speaker 4: There, why not?
Speaker 1: Because the work our Kay? Then the context of John
is used for the father and the son.
Speaker 11: Okay, so then let's appropriate.
Speaker 4: Let's show too, let's let's approach it differently.
Speaker 1: Then, No, it don't. Let's go at the man. I
know what you're gonna fou Okay, hold on, Jay, let
me know when you want to jump, because I don't
want to just keep yeah, okay, well yeah, Revelation three fourteen. Okay, yeah,
let me spling it all up one second. So now
in Revelation three fourteen, pause for me. What it means
that he's the beginning of the creation of God? What
does that mean?
Speaker 5: Is?
Speaker 1: Can you hear me? I can't hear him.
Speaker 9: He's muter right now.
Speaker 19: Maybe he's my apologie was getting I was getting my
daughter in another room.
Speaker 1: What does it mean you're getting with the creation of God.
Speaker 19: I believe that God the Father spoke Jesus into existence.
Speaker 1: I didn't ask what you believe, I said, what does.
Speaker 19: It means as the first as the first creation of God? First,
the first thing and the only thing the Father ever
created was Jesus.
Speaker 1: Prove that it means that he's the first thing he created.
Speaker 19: From this verse, Well, the the scriptures that you made
mention of, No, no, no.
Speaker 1: Way, we're not going to those. We're staying relationship. Take
it easy. Let's exegete.
Speaker 11: Okay.
Speaker 19: So he says here these things say the Amen, Yeah,
the faithful, the true witness, the beginning of the creation
of Gods.
Speaker 1: Well, what does the beginning creation mean that he is created?
Speaker 19: Well, because he says he's the beginning of the creation.
Speaker 1: Friend, repeating this wording does not tell me what does
it mean from the creation.
Speaker 19: Of God that means he's the He's the first thing
that the Father brought into existence.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, because the word beginning our k can mean source, beginner,
and ruler. I agree interpretation that it means he's the
beginning because God began the creation by creating him force.
Because the word ark in revelation itself as well as
a New Testament can mean source, beginner, and or ruler.
Speaker 11: Proof, I agree.
Speaker 4: I'm not.
Speaker 11: I'm not. I'm not debating that.
Speaker 19: But in the in the in the context of the
scripture here, you know, in the context of the scripture
here it says here that he that he, that is
that he these things say the amen number.
Speaker 1: One, that's the name of God in Isaiah sixty five,
sixteen year baron.
Speaker 4: I'm not, I'm not. I'm not debating that. I agree
to that.
Speaker 1: Oh No, listen to yourself. Man, If God is the
amen and Jesus is the amen, that means Revelation is
identifying Christ as they ahweh God the God who is
the amen. You know you're not listening because if you're listening,
you're refuting yourself. Because if he's the God who is
the Amen. He's not the creature, He's the creator.
Speaker 4: He show you.
Speaker 1: So, no, you're not listening. So I try it again.
Pretend you're listening. You're not here. Let me show you.
So let me go right here. Second, all right, here
you go. Look at the context of isaais six of five,
because that's the context of revelation.
Speaker 16: There you go.
Speaker 1: Those who pronounce a blessing in land will do so
by the God called Amn. Okay, those who make a
solemn pledge in the land will do so by the
God called a man. Past troubles will be forgotten and
him from my sight, Look, I'm creating a new heavenu
or a gie. Isn't that the theme in revelation? The
God called Amen is the creator of the new heaven earth.
So if I read revelation light of the Old Testament,
which John is calling from, he is not created. He
is the one who begins creation because he's the Amen,
which is a title for God.
Speaker 4: If I may, if I so this.
Speaker 19: Chapter there in Isaiah sixty eight, that's not it. I
don't use that in reference to the Father.
Speaker 1: Okay, repeat my argument. I want to see if you
got it.
Speaker 4: You're saying that the amen is the is God the
Father because he was.
Speaker 1: I didn't say God the Father, No, because I don't mean.
Speaker 19: Well, you just said yeah, you just said God. You
just said God and its totality, which and I'm fine
with that.
Speaker 1: But no, one, you're not fine with that. Finished. My
point was Mark, because you didn't listen. You haven't because.
Speaker 19: Your Mark, Well, No, The point I wanted to make
is that the distinction between the two.
Speaker 4: It is important. Okay.
Speaker 1: The one who is the amen is the one who
creates the new heavens and the new Earth. In the
context of relation, which talks about you having new Earth
Relation twenty one. Here John is not telling you that
Christ was created. No, he's the one who begins creates
the creation of God. Because he's identifying him as the
creator by calling him Amen.
Speaker 5: What are you not getting?
Speaker 11: So let me ask you this.
Speaker 19: Are you saying that the beginning of the creation of God?
But how do you how do you define that meaning?
Speaker 1: He's the one who begins the creation that God wanted
to exist because Top the Father appoints Jesus the Son
to be the agent that created all things that John
one three to four.
Speaker 5: I agree to that.
Speaker 1: Okay, Then that doesn't mean he's a creature. So what's
your next proof?
Speaker 11: Okay?
Speaker 19: So once again, creature in a sense not like us,
but creature in the sense that he's brought in.
Speaker 1: It doesn't chow he's a creature in any sense. What's
the next argument?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 1: Let me ask you the next question in relation twenty
one six to seven. So you understand the word beginning
didn't help your case. Okay, watch your relation twenty one
six to seven. Then he said to me, they are dynamic,
the alphan to maga, the beginning. In the end, I
will give to the one who thirst from the spring
of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes
will inherit these things, and I'll be his God. He'll
be my son. Now here's that same old beginning. Okay.
Now here God is saying he's the beginning. Now, you
wouldn't tell me that God had a.
Speaker 4: Beginning, right, No, I don't believe that's God the Father.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't tell me that God is the beginning, right.
You wouldn't tell me that God has a beginning, right,
because he says he's the beginning in the end. No, okay,
So what does it mean here that God is the
beginning in the.
Speaker 4: End, because there's a starting point to his existence.
Speaker 1: That's not what it says that.
Speaker 4: That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1: Okay, But you're wasting my time here because here it
says I'll be his God, he'll be my son. So
whose son are you?
Speaker 11: Okay?
Speaker 19: So let me ask this question because I no, no,
I don't want to change the subject. We're still on
a subject. I just want to ask a question. He
asked you about that verse and verse seven.
Speaker 11: What does that mean?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 11: Okay?
Speaker 19: So I believe that once the father heated the son,
he made the son to have dominion and authority, and
through the son all things were created. Calling according.
Speaker 4: Who's the god in verse seven, that's that's Jesus.
Speaker 1: That's what it says, he will be his son. So
Jesus is God the father.
Speaker 19: When he says that you will be his son, Jesus
the Father has given Jesus the right to bear son.
That's why we must be born again. And how are
we born again? We're body again?
Speaker 1: Running to John three. In this context, it says I
will be as God, he will be my son. Are
you son of Jesus? Or the son of the Father.
Speaker 4: We are we are sons of Jesus.
Speaker 1: That's not what the Bible says sons of.
Speaker 4: And I believe that, but that there there's a time
element in that for that to happen.
Speaker 19: That that's when, that's when, that's when Jesus, after he
has put all things on the his what he himself
will also submit.
Speaker 1: Now you're you're now butchering First Christians fifteen twenty eight.
Do you even know what that means? So let me
see how much Bible butcher you're gonna do.
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 1: Okay, Oh no, he went to First Christian fifteen twenty ran.
But even there it's okay, what does it mean that
when Christ hence the kingdom over to God, he will
subject himself to God so that God will be all?
That means he'll stop raining?
Speaker 19: Okay, So let me ask you this if in terms
of reigning, in terms of reigning, in terms of reigning,
how many how many thrones are there to rain?
Speaker 1: Can you answer my question? What does it mean when
Christ will subject himself to God? Doesn't mean he stops ruling.
Speaker 4: No, it does not mean he stops fuling.
Speaker 1: Okay, So then what does this verse have to do
with Revelation twenty one six to seven.
Speaker 11: Which verse are you talking about?
Speaker 5: Jay?
Speaker 1: If you want to chat me up, brother, because.
Speaker 4: This guy is Okay, So if I can, if I can,
just if i can, just.
Speaker 19: Make two points and then if i'm if I'm if
I'm if I'm wrong, I'm open, I'm willing to.
Speaker 1: Worship.
Speaker 4: Worship.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: That that that's something that is done to God. Correct.
Speaker 11: Yeah, not creatures, which means that you can't worship the
Son of God.
Speaker 4: That's fine.
Speaker 11: How can that be fine? If that refuge?
Speaker 19: Let's let's put the creature aspect to the side, just briefly,
just so with regards to worship. Yeah, is there anywhere
in scripture where it tells us to worship the spirit? Okay?
Speaker 11: Yes, go at you well when Jesus says that he
will come to you as the comforter.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean the entire passage of the High priestly
Prayer includes the Holy Spirit that's having all of the
powers and attributes.
Speaker 4: Is there anywhere in the Bible does it tell us to.
Speaker 1: Okay, is there anywhere in the Bible that says that
Jesus is your father and those exact words, Yes, those
exact words. I'm going to bury. You show it to me.
Speaker 6: Here in.
Speaker 1: These guys are not listening to this guy's You've been
making Mohmed look intelligent. Show me where it says Jesus
is your father and those exact words.
Speaker 11: I'm getting the scripture.
Speaker 1: I guarantee you it's not there someone, and I'm going
to have to tear your shows when you don't show
it to me. But gohed because you didn't understand why question.
Go ahead, We'll tell me Isaiah ninety six because it's
going to be your funeral.
Speaker 4: Okay, So what you don't like that scripture?
Speaker 1: Okay, did you hear what my question was? Pretend you're not.
Speaker 4: Isaiah?
Speaker 1: No, I didn't sell what I asked you. I said,
I pretend you're not slow like Mohammad. I said, Can
you show me where it says Jesus is your father?
Not a verse word says ever last father.
Speaker 11: No, the scripture doesn't say that.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now can you stop with these stupid arguments that
the Bible has to say it the way you like,
otherwise it's not true. But now I'm gonna beary you here.
Second content is thirteen fourteen The Grace of the Lord
Jeesus Christ, the Love of God and the fellowship. Will
the Spirit be with you all. Do you know what
a benediction is? Pretend you know the Bible. Do you
know what a benediction is?
Speaker 4: Yes? I do?
Speaker 1: What is a benediction?
Speaker 11: A benediction is a blessing that is pronounced on someone.
Speaker 1: And who do you invoke to bless?
Speaker 11: What do you mean? Who you invoke to bless?
Speaker 1: Do you invoke your grandmother to bless? When you're doing
in benediction? Who do you invoke? You give the blessing?
Speaker 11: You invoke God to bless?
Speaker 1: You just buried yourself because here's a benediction and he's
invoking the Holy Spirit in your face.
Speaker 4: That's not that's not invoking the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1: That is a benediction the grace of the Lord Jesus.
Speaker 4: Say bye bye.
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye bye.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 12: So, Sam, what would you what? What do you what
would you rather do with? Would you rather deal with
the Muslim or a heretic?
Speaker 1: Man? I don't know, man, because these guys are I
don't know if they're demonized and they're like challenged mentally
because they don't hear what you're saying. So I don't know.
I mean, you know it's hard because you see, I
asked him one thing. He pretends he heard me, and
yet he goes to a passaty thinks I'm not aware
of it. And then you see how I beat him too, Right,
I gonna go to Isaiah nine six because you're gonna
get buried.
Speaker 5: Ahah.
Speaker 1: Well you don't like that because there's he's a lasting
father would say he's my father, right, But anyway, I'm
sorry to go ahead.
Speaker 11: I mean I was gonna go to Hebrews one because
that man, I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he wants to say where does it say
worshipillly Spirit? Where in secrements? In thirteen fourteen? That's a benediction.
You're invoking Christ to bestow grace, God to fill us
with love and the Holy Spirit to produce fellowship. Well, no,
that's not a mantiction, that's not a prink.
Speaker 11: Well, I mean the psalms, he sent his word and
they were created. That means the Spirit is the creator.
So how's the spirit going to be a creature If
he's the creator.
Speaker 1: What's the wrong with you? Which was going to be
the next one.
Speaker 11: We're going to, Well, how does that so he's not
a person, but he creates. I mean that doesn't make
any sense.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1: Come on, man, you gotta be a Muhammed and to
understand this logic.
Speaker 4: What's wrong with you?
Speaker 20: Jay?
Speaker 1: Logically?
Speaker 12: All right, let's see here. Let's see here. We got
a super chef from JJ says. I hope you guys
understand that a lot of people do not have good
reading comprehension, hence quote unquote Bible butchers.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I live.
Speaker 9: Bring up the next guy. Uh Man, you're on the stage.
How you doing?
Speaker 5: Hey?
Speaker 21: You guys can hear me?
Speaker 5: Yep?
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 21: So first of all, I'm going to say I'm a
big fan of three of you. So I'm still learning
about the Bible and Christianity. So I have a few questions.
First let's talk about the treaty, because what.
Speaker 9: Religion are you coming from?
Speaker 21: Well, I'm an atheist. I'm I'm still learning. I'm reading
both the Bible, both the Old with New Testament, and
I read some.
Speaker 4: Of the Quran. It's bad. Let's not talk about it's bad. Okay,
So you don't believe you So you don't believe Mohammed's
a true prophet?
Speaker 21: No, I think he's he's afraid of him, so Muhammad,
so let's don't talk about him.
Speaker 11: By the way, I apologize, I I misquoted. I wanted
to be clear. I was thinking of the verse song
thirty three. By the word of the Lord, the heavens
were made, and by the stars by the breath of
his mouth, the breath being the spirits. What I was,
what I quoted and said word I meant to say,
by the breath of his mouth. Excuse me? Good?
Speaker 5: So I.
Speaker 17: Let them.
Speaker 21: I'm gonna say what I understand about a trinity, So
you guys can explain more to me if I'm wrong
or not.
Speaker 12: Well, what do you tell you that the trinity is
the concept of God. There's only one God who exists
three distinct persons. Yeah, so what is your problem with that?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 21: Because as I understand there, I note it down. So
I think there are three points of what a trinity is.
So first there's only one God. Two God is three
coexisting eternal persons, and three each person.
Speaker 4: Is fully God.
Speaker 9: Is it correct? Yep?
Speaker 21: Wow, got the first time. So yeah, I think that's correct.
It because I'm trying to explain it to my girlfriend.
She and I are looking into it, reading the Bible, together.
Speaker 4: So yeah, so do you have a problem with that theology.
Speaker 21: Or yeah, yeah, just trying to understand it but then
explain it more clearly to her so she can understand it.
Because I think my knowledge is not very well well
knowledge in this area. So I think you guys can
help me out with how to explain it, how to
how to demonstrate it, because it's hard to come up
with like an example.
Speaker 4: I guess.
Speaker 11: Well, I mean I would argue that there's a lot
of things, like, you know, if you are an atheist
or agnostic background, then you probably know about science or mathematics.
I mean, in mathematics, was a lot of things that
maybe mirror or image this idea. You know, you could
talk about numbers being raised to the third or something
like that, or the number three is it one or
is it three?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 11: If I use the Arabic numeral three, that's something that's
both a singular thing but it's also three. So even
in the created realm, there are things that we know
about and we're very familiar with that are not either
one or three. So the idea that something can't be
both in is kind of I would say, just from
the outset negated by that point, they're all kinds of
things that can be one end many at the same time,
so we wouldn't necessarily think that that's impossible for God.
And the trinity is not any more illogical than say,
the Unitarian positions, because they also have to also they
also have to account for multiplicity. So in other words,
if you say, well, there's just one God but a
bunch of attributes, like the Muslims say, well, you still
have to deal with multiplicity in a law and have
to give an account for that. I'm not trying to
say that unitarianism makes sense. I'm just saying that, really,
I would argue that a Trinitarian talk of theology is
the only one that make sense. Because God was for
all eternity just a sole, unitary being, then the exercise
of his powers and attributes was actually contingent upon there
being a created world. But if God was an eternal triad,
then there's all kinds of attributes or energies that God
had and exercised and experienced amongst the triad, amongst the
three persons, and didn't require created order. So in other words,
the Father was always had an eternal relationship to the
Son and to the Spirit, and so there was always
a communion of love and glory and so forth, and
that never required a created order for God to have
that reality that exercised that communion.
Speaker 9: So they.
Speaker 21: At the same time they exist eternally together, right, Yeah. So,
because I have a little bit of problem when reading
the Old Testament, because I feel like the God in
the Old Testament he feels like a different character than
Jesus in a New Testament.
Speaker 4: Who do you who do you.
Speaker 11: Think that Angel the Lord is in all those passages?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 21: I mean, I mean I read some verse have to
talk about slavery, and you're going off.
Speaker 11: In the difference. Who do you think the Angel the
Lord is in all those Old Testament passes?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 21: No, no, because because I feel like that they feel
too different to me.
Speaker 11: Did you not hear what I say. You're not gonna talk.
You're not going to listen to what I'm saying. You're
going to slavery. I'm talking about the Angel of the
Lord that's in all of these Old Testaments. You said
you read the Old Testament.
Speaker 4: Right, he's gone. I dropped him because I didn't since
that he.
Speaker 5: Was a troll.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wanted to start attacking the ethical commands of
the Old Testament. He wanted to be a Martian ike,
but good.
Speaker 12: Yeah, jack Yan says, love you, Sam, blessings from me
too many nice?
Speaker 9: Right, you got somebody named da.
Speaker 5: How you doing?
Speaker 11: How you doing?
Speaker 4: How you doing? Pretty good? Man? Pretty good?
Speaker 11: How's a ben.
Speaker 4: There's been a long day.
Speaker 12: It's been a good day, man, It's been a great day.
Blessed by the Lord. Yeah, yeah, yeah, how about you?
You've been have a good day?
Speaker 17: Yeah, it's been it's been a great day.
Speaker 11: Man.
Speaker 22: I have a have a have a have a question
for you guys. You know you guys you know, debate
this a lot, but I'm pretty I want to say,
I'm pretty confident on this being Muhammad in the Bible.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I know, I know, I know, I know.
Speaker 22: No, but listen, okay, mm hmmm, We're just okay, let
me I'm going to take up to two verses. But
first let me let me let me take up I
watched your video Sam on this.
Speaker 1: I can't get to the I love you, I swear,
but get to the verse I love you icewear okay, Okay,
my brother, you man, I swear I love.
Speaker 22: You Okay, listen, listen. I watched your video on video
on like dorn In eighteen eighteen. Yeah, and you know
I tried applying it, but it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: So what verses about Muhammad? Not about what makes sense
to you?
Speaker 22: I'm waiting for the verses listen, because I ran into
a problem. Okay if you No, I ran into a
little problem with it. So your your explanation is good,
but up until how can you okay, can you prove
to me Jesus is an Israelie?
Speaker 4: Just what I have to do with?
Speaker 1: You're going to show us Mohammad in the Bible.
Speaker 5: So the verses?
Speaker 17: No, I was talking about do me eighteen eighteen?
Speaker 1: So where are the verses? What Mama?
Speaker 10: Did I miss hear him?
Speaker 1: Did he say he's going to show us Mama in
the Bible?
Speaker 4: That's what he said.
Speaker 1: I was saying.
Speaker 4: I was saying, I believe it's him. I don't believe
it's Jesus.
Speaker 1: What's the verses about Muhammad? Which one is it.
Speaker 4: Like in the bi Yeah? Don me eighteen eighteen?
Speaker 10: So you now quote it duronomy, So don't run from
please as well try to get somebody serious because we
don't got much time left, So trying to get some
serious people here.
Speaker 4: Jason Torrez, how you doing good?
Speaker 6: Good?
Speaker 5: How can you give me?
Speaker 9: I can hear you? My friend?
Speaker 4: Do you rejected Kennedy?
Speaker 3: Not necessarily?
Speaker 23: And give me one second here, just one clarification for
my own sake personally. Okay, So we have the trinity
and then you have modalism. Right, I'm having trouble distinguishing,
you know, isn't.
Speaker 5: So you got to God the.
Speaker 3: Father got the Son, right, And that's a metaphor, right,
the father son is a metaphor.
Speaker 11: No, it's not a metaphor.
Speaker 3: It's not a metaphor.
Speaker 11: It's a real relationship.
Speaker 3: No, I get that. It is a real relationship.
Speaker 11: But well, that's not a metaphor. It's a real ontological relationship.
He's eternally generating a son. Okay.
Speaker 4: The old chapter John one is.
Speaker 11: A about the eternal generation of the songs.
Speaker 3: Right, Because Jesus is God incarnate.
Speaker 11: Correct incarnate, excuse me, God the Son incarnate.
Speaker 23: Jesus is God the Son incarnate, which means okay, so
he was the Word before.
Speaker 3: He was son, or he's always been the son.
Speaker 11: He is the Word and the Son from all eternity.
Speaker 3: He's the Son from all the tnity.
Speaker 12: Yes, all right, he's not the Father.
Speaker 23: There's a true distinction between him and the Father. No,
I get that, but it's in distinct the distinction. Wouldn't
that be?
Speaker 3: And I'll allegorically explain like, isn't Jesus God?
Speaker 5: Not?
Speaker 3: What I'm saying is Jesus is God and the Father
is God.
Speaker 4: Correct, Yes, because.
Speaker 11: They share the same nature, but they're distinct persons, just
like you, if you have a son, you're a distinct person,
but you share the same human nature.
Speaker 3: Right, But God is in God.
Speaker 23: The Father is in operation outside of time, while the
Son is in operation within time.
Speaker 11: Now the Son is an eternal divine person outside of
time as well. That's what John One says. We beheld
him and he was always in the bosom of the Father.
So he's walking around as the son in a human
nature and he's also in the bosom of the Father
at the same time.
Speaker 3: Okay, I can see that. I can get that, But
I'm talking about before incarnation.
Speaker 1: That Christ was there before creation as the son with
the Father.
Speaker 23: Yes, but what I'm saying, okay, so Christ is God's word,
right yep. So so if I'm trying to explain this
to somebody. Can you explain the communicosti idiom matsum, what
what the community Communicosti India made them?
Speaker 1: Can you explain that, I guess he's been here mats
like communicatu.
Speaker 11: The hyposthetic union, that's about Christ incarnate. That's just saying
that there's one person, the Son, that's acting, and what's
proper to both natures can be attributed to the one son.
So you could say that you know God died. You
could say that you know God was born. That's all
that means that one that the the names that are
proper to one nature, like being tired, that's proper to
the human nature. But you can say that, you can
say that God got tired because the second person that
God had has a human nature, which experience is really
getting tired. Doesn't mean that God literally became you know,
something else, or he changed or something like that.
Speaker 3: Okay, So when God walks into garden with Ham, and
when God is eating with Abraham, that's God.
Speaker 11: That's not the yes.
Speaker 23: Okay, So that's got the son, all right, And so
God the Father can only be seen through She's correct,
God the Father can only be seen through the Son.
Speaker 4: Correct. Just what Jesus says in John five, Right, Sam,
your thing is I muted it.
Speaker 11: It's all good, though, Jesus explains in John five that correct,
only the Father can only be seen in the Son.
Speaker 23: Correct, And those are that's called a christophany or theophany.
Speaker 11: Yeah, in the Old Testament?
Speaker 4: Correct?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 23: So anytime God is seen and Jesus clarifies that he
you can only see the Father through me, correct, Because I'm.
Speaker 3: In the Father and I am head.
Speaker 11: Why the Pharisees are so mad at him because he's
saying that I'm the one that's appearing in the Old Testament, right, Okay.
In other words, he's claiming to be God in those passages.
Speaker 3: And that's not modalism, that's trinity.
Speaker 11: Well, it proves that modalism is false because if no
one sees the Father at any time, and they were
seeing the tho, you can really think from the Father.
Speaker 3: What did you say to Sam?
Speaker 23: I didn't say anything, but okay, I'm sorry, I'm getting
some background noise.
Speaker 3: I thought I thought you were speaking over each other.
Speaker 11: Just what I'm saying is that it disproves modalism because
there if the Son is the one who's the face
of the Father or the one that's appearing in the
Old Testament. And Jesus says, no one sees the Father
at any time. Then there has to be a distinction
between the Father.
Speaker 4: And the Son.
Speaker 23: Right, But isn't that distinction that God can only be
seen through corporeal manifestation.
Speaker 11: Now the distinction is the second person of the Godhead,
the eternal Son of the Father, is manifesting and revealing
the person of the Father. That's why Jesus throughout the Gospel,
John says, I came to tell you about and reveal
the Father to you. And if you want to know
and see the Father, you have to know and learn
about me. But that doesn't mean that he is the Father,
because he distinguishes himself as a different person from.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, just give me one second. Hold on a second.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm gonna debate his his ceiling. I'm gonna
debate that roof right there, that's the atheist roof.
Speaker 11: I'm gonna repute it.
Speaker 12: Oh man, Guys, as we're waiting for our guests to
get back, go ahead and hit that like button.
Speaker 6: Man.
Speaker 12: We've been at this alm for about four hours now,
it's been a excuse. We've been a pretty good stream.
We got three and a half thousand lights on god Logic.
How many likes you got over there on Shermonium.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah I got uh let me see it o too, Yeah,
because we had over four thousands.
Speaker 9: Yeah, so let's get let's get the thousand likes up.
I go ahead and go ahead.
Speaker 24: Continue Jason, Okay, so we have okay, God, the Father
got the Son distinct individuals. Okay, I think I guess
I was under the confusion that the distinction only became
because one was operating with King simon space while the
other was operating outside of it.
Speaker 11: No, it's an eternal trinity, three distinct persons sharing a
communal eternal relationship. But there's one God. Because there's one God,
the Father, and that one God, the Father endwells the
Son and the Spirit. They all endwell one another. This
is called the doctrine of paraparesis. There's also one God
because they all share the same nature, so one God,
the Father, one they all endwell one another, and they
all share the same singular divine nature. But they are
also three distinct persons, so it's a both and on either.
Speaker 9: Or okay, And.
Speaker 23: When God appears as the burning bush or a pillar,
a fire, or a cloud to the Israelites into.
Speaker 3: Moses, this is Jesus as well as this the Spirit.
Speaker 11: Well, all those passages explain, particularly that it's the Son
that's manifested, particularly in the burn and bush, because the
later on an Exodus twenty two and twenty three it
explains that that was the Angel of the Lord speaking
in the bush. Now, in the case of the pillar
of fire, it does say that the Lord came down
in the pillar of fire. But I think you could
make an argument that just like the tongues of fire
that manifest at Pentecost and Act too, there are what
in the Orthodox tradition we call energetic manifestations that are
proper to the Spirit or to the Father. For example,
the Father's voice is heard in the Baptism of Christ,
the Spirit is shown as a dove. We don't believe
that the Holy Spirit incarnated as a dove, or that
he incarnated as fire or a cloud. But you can
have energetic manifestations that are proper to displaying and revealing
the Spirit or displaying and revealing the Father. They're still triadic.
Speaker 3: And they've been triadic for all eternity, that's what you're saying.
Speaker 11: So I'm saying that the actions specifically like the manifestation
of the tongues of Fire and acts too. Even though
there are energies that manifest that there is a Holy
Spirit that reveal a Holy Spirit, they're not the Holy
Spirit incarnate. And they're also in time and space. So
I wouldn't say that Pentecost is an eternal thing that's happening.
But the Trinity is eternal, and they've had an inn
eternal trinitarian relationship and communication. But the Trinity can do
unique manifestations in time and space, always through the revelation
of the Son, and they're still triadic, even though it's
the Son that's there. The Son is never apart from
the Father of the Spirit. The Trinity is always present,
but in a unique way that we call a theophany,
that is primarily the manifestation of the Son.
Speaker 3: Primarily manifestation of the Son.
Speaker 11: Okay, for the most part. I mean, again, there are
manifestations of the voice of the Father, but even that's
still references to this reference to the Son, because the
Son is the voice of the Father. So all the
Theophanes are still crystocentric, but they can be a revelation
of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
Speaker 9: Last question here, Jason, then I gotta let somebody else up.
Speaker 3: Okay, go ahead and let somebody else up. I think
you've cleaned it up from the.
Speaker 5: Are you good?
Speaker 11: Oh yeah, I would say, read John one and then
read Hebrews one, and those are really good verses about
eternal generation of the song.
Speaker 3: Thank you, I appreciate it.
Speaker 12: Thanks for coming up, Jason, appreciate you man. All right,
all right, let's go ahead and bring up somebody who.
Speaker 4: Most likely disagrees with this.
Speaker 9: Zor blazing or blazing? How you doing, man, you're a
non trinitarian.
Speaker 5: Hey, how are you?
Speaker 9: Brothers?
Speaker 14: I've been listening to you guys, and it's an awesome
God bless y'all and your family.
Speaker 11: I'm an Orthodox serbi an Orthodox.
Speaker 9: Okay, well, I just I just yeah, I know.
Speaker 4: I just want to say a shout out and blessing
to you guys. That's all.
Speaker 12: I appreciate you, brother, God bless you that. Hey, guys, please,
you know, don't hit the link unless you disagree, unless
you are a non trinitarian.
Speaker 9: All right, t J. How you doing?
Speaker 4: Yeah, how's it going? Do you guys hear read?
Speaker 9: Yeah, we can hear you.
Speaker 4: You're non trinitary. You rejected Trinity.
Speaker 20: Yeah, I'm a nontrinitarian.
Speaker 14: And the reason is.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry that was it's too quick.
Speaker 9: What's what do you say about Jesus?
Speaker 4: Believe he's created or.
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 20: I say that Jesus is created.
Speaker 14: And that's according to Syriac chapter twenty four and verses
one through six.
Speaker 1: Guys, no, I know what he's talking about.
Speaker 5: Nope.
Speaker 1: If you read Serac twenty four in the entirety, let
me explain number one, it's thought about personified wisdom that's
encapsulated in the Torah. If you read the entire chapter,
number two, that wisdom is not created because it comes
out of the mouth of the Most High. So it's
not creation, ex nahilo. So you misquoted Xerac twenty four.
Speaker 14: Okay, it's also in syrect chapter one, in verse four
it says it was created.
Speaker 1: If I read Saraq one four elight of Xerac twenty
four one to ten, the creation is not creatio ex nahilo.
I know the passages. I want to pretend you're listening
to hear to me. What means create means it was
gotten brought forth out of God. That's why I read
for us Sarah twenty four three. Where did the wisdom
come from?
Speaker 14: It came out of the mouth of God.
Speaker 1: I came out, that's exactly. Can you show me where
creation came out of God's mouth?
Speaker 4: Yes? Verse six.
Speaker 1: You guy's a special kurdis read verse six for me?
Speaker 4: Yeah, no problem. Can you guys hear me?
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Okay, no problem.
Speaker 14: So this is the book of give me one second,
Syrac chapter twenty four and verse six. Actually verse let's see,
I'm meant to say, yeah, sorry, I'm meant to say
verse nine.
Speaker 11: I misspoke.
Speaker 1: No, let me review what my repeat my question?
Speaker 20: Yeah, you asked me to read syrect chapter twenty four
and verse six.
Speaker 1: No, I said, can you show me where creation came
out of God's mouth?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 14: Yeah, it says that in Siac twenty four and three
it says I came out of the mouth the most.
Speaker 1: Can you show me where creation came out of God's mouth?
Not wisdom?
Speaker 14: Oh, where creation came out of the mouth of the
Most High. That would be the genesis. Because the word
of God is the one.
Speaker 1: Who created this guy makes Mohammed look intelligent. Sorry, one
more time?
Speaker 5: Is right?
Speaker 1: Nowhere in Genesis creation came out of God's mouth, it
says God is were to create. The fourth time, can
you show me where it says creation came out of
God's mouth?
Speaker 6: Uh?
Speaker 25: No?
Speaker 1: Okay, See, why do you waste five minutes of my life?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 14: Because the way that I'm trying to answer in a
certain way. So again in Syriac, what my objection was
to you? Yes, you asked me to show you where creation.
Speaker 5: Came out of God?
Speaker 1: Did wisdom come out of God?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: That means before it came out of God, was within God?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 4: Correct?
Speaker 1: So is there anything in God that's created? Uh?
Speaker 20: Anything inside of God that's created?
Speaker 4: Noe.
Speaker 1: So you just proved wisdom is not created. So what's
your next objection?
Speaker 14: Yes, this is the Book of Syriac, chapter twenty four
and verse nine.
Speaker 1: It's that's what else? Because he just didn't understand what
I said. When wisdom says created, not you know, it's
creative meaning being borth out of God. This is where
we get the beginning.
Speaker 4: But he's right that.
Speaker 1: And then is that wisdom said to be the Torah?
Speaker 20: Or Jesus in that context, that's being created the wisdom.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And that chapter, if you read to it, is
that it's said to be the Torah.
Speaker 20: Yes, if you read there are several other verses.
Speaker 1: That, well, let's say Jesus is created.
Speaker 20: Yeah, just read it to you. Jesus is the wisdom
that we got anybody else?
Speaker 4: Brother, because I look intelligence Moneys, Money is welcome to
the panel.
Speaker 6: Eric, Jay.
Speaker 1: If you want to say anyth go ahead. But I'm
just saying this guy.
Speaker 11: I mean, he just said wisdom is not created, but
Jesus say, is the created wisdom. So he repeated himself.
Speaker 12: We got Eric on the panel. Eric, you there, Eric
going once? Your name is Money. He's on here going twice.
All right, got a few more minutes, guys until I
gotta go get to dinner.
Speaker 4: MG. MG you're on the panel. MG, you're on the panel.
Can't hear you? Hear me here?
Speaker 5: You now?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 6: What's up?
Speaker 3: Are you?
Speaker 4: Are you the agnostic that was on here a few
weeks ago?
Speaker 20: Hey, I'm great.
Speaker 4: Let me up, man.
Speaker 1: We can discuss that later.
Speaker 6: Bro.
Speaker 4: I'm going to seek you know what I mean.
Speaker 12: So we're dealing, we're dealing with people who like are
more religious man who either believe in the Koran or
they say they believe in the Bible but reject certain things.
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, I'll come back. All right, Okay, Oh.
Speaker 9: Anton, how you doing? And Ton?
Speaker 5: You are on?
Speaker 3: Ope?
Speaker 4: He's gone?
Speaker 9: All right, all right, Eric, you're back. Eric, I can
hear you sound.
Speaker 4: Can you hear me? Man? Yes, you hear me?
Speaker 9: There we go, yep, I can hear you.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 9: Do you reject the Trinity?
Speaker 4: You're muted?
Speaker 9: Come on, Eric, you gotta you gotta have it together, man,
if you're gonna be on the panel, are you.
Speaker 5: Good to go?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm good to go.
Speaker 5: All right.
Speaker 4: So do you reject the Trinity? Yeah?
Speaker 9: I Do you believe the Bible?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 9: Do you believe that this is God.
Speaker 4: And you believe He's created? I believe? Yeah. D you
believe Jesus is God? Do you believe he's the Father? Yes?
Okay you believe? Yeah? Okay.
Speaker 9: So you believe that God is one person?
Speaker 4: Yes? Yes?
Speaker 9: Nice?
Speaker 5: Jay?
Speaker 4: You want to you want to touch on this? He's
a one, this one.
Speaker 5: This.
Speaker 11: So in John seventeen, when Jesus talks about the comforter coming,
he will he will guide you into all truth. He
will do this, he will do that. Who is that?
Speaker 4: John sixteen? By the way, but yeah, excuse me, John sixty.
It's okay. Is he can he hear you?
Speaker 5: Or no?
Speaker 4: I'm listening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's asked es question, he says.
Speaker 11: John sixteen. Right, we have all the we have this
discussion of the coming of the Holy Spirit. I will
ask the father uh, and he will send the comforter.
He will come to you. I will not leave you
as orphans. The spirit of truth will come. He will
guide you into all truth. He will not speak of
his own authority. He will speak whatever he hears me speak,
and he will tell you other things to come. He
will glorify me, or he will take of what his
mind and declare it to you. Who is that?
Speaker 4: Who is that speaking? Who?
Speaker 5: Who's he?
Speaker 11: Who's speaking? He is talking about.
Speaker 4: He's talking about God? Those spirit?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 11: Okay, so is the he the third he is he
doing something different from the second?
Speaker 20: Heat?
Speaker 4: I mean they all work together, for they all work together.
Speaker 11: But well so then they're not the same person if
they all work together.
Speaker 4: How can how can you say this?
Speaker 26: For you to get one benefit, you have to you know,
basically listen so it's like if God is telling you
to listen, if Jesus is the way you have to
get to Jesus to get the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 4: To get the Holy Spirit, you have to get to God.
You have to get to the Spirit. If you get
what I'm saying.
Speaker 11: So they're all in person. And what I'm saying is
that they're not the same person, because even by your
own explanation, they're all three distinct.
Speaker 4: I mean when i'm it's coming from the same source.
If you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 11: Well, the fathers the spirit with that. But that doesn't
But that doesn't.
Speaker 4: Mean they're can be a person. What but God, God
is not a person. If God is not a person,
now Jesus is the person.
Speaker 1: Hold on definition of person? Jay thinks you mean like
human being. He doesn't no definition of person. Maybe that's
why he's confused. May you want to explain what it
means that we say Father is a person.
Speaker 11: Well, when we say person, that doesn't mean like a
separate being. The trend is unique. So God, the Father
is a person in the exact same way that the
Son is a person because they have a relationship. Jesus
says in John One the Father eternally begot him. So
how could he be the same person as the Father?
If there's a distinction of that generation, that relationship there.
You can have a relationship with yourself, it's got to
be somebody else.
Speaker 1: You understand what he means by person. He's telling you
the Father is not a human person.
Speaker 4: Is an example.
Speaker 1: So you understand what he means when he says the
Father is a person.
Speaker 4: He's not saying yeah, human, Yeah, I know that's what
I mean.
Speaker 1: Human being the Father.
Speaker 4: I believe he's you know, right?
Speaker 9: So so who so better?
Speaker 4: When when Jesus is talking about the Spirit of truth, saying.
Speaker 12: That he's gonna come and guide you in all truth
and speakers to speaks, he's here, Yeah, he's not listening.
Speaker 1: He's talking over you.
Speaker 17: Bro, Can you hear me?
Speaker 4: Eric? Are you there?
Speaker 5: All right?
Speaker 9: Good?
Speaker 4: God almighty? I got top of one more guests?
Speaker 1: Man, God all time? Mister, that's right. That what you
want to manifest again? The guy with the.
Speaker 4: Who whatever?
Speaker 9: Harlem, you're on the stage, How.
Speaker 17: You doing I'm doing pretty well.
Speaker 16: How are you guys doing this evening?
Speaker 9: Pretty good?
Speaker 4: Pretty good?
Speaker 9: Do you rejected?
Speaker 25: I absolutely rejected Trinity?
Speaker 21: But I love you guys.
Speaker 27: Okay, yeah, this is a lot, you know, so I
just my first question would be, how do you explain
the scripture John eight fifty eight when Jesus just says, barely, verily,
I say unto you before Abraham was I am?
Speaker 4: Before we answer that this? Do you do you believe
that Jesus is God?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes?
Speaker 9: And you believe do you believe Jesus is the Father?
Speaker 20: Absolutely?
Speaker 4: Okay? Got you? All right?
Speaker 9: So now I know where you're coming from. Okay, let's gohead,
go ahead.
Speaker 1: Prove How does that prove that if Jesus says I am,
that makes him the father? Why do you think only
the Father's.
Speaker 5: That I am?
Speaker 4: Because that's what he said.
Speaker 1: Let's go to the chapter I'm going to use a chapter.
Can you open up my scream again? Yep, So you
quoted fifty eight. But conveniently, when he uses I am earlier,
you forgot this part, My sister, I am right. John
A nine. Jesus said, when you lift up the son
of Man, then you'll know that I am he. It's
the same Greek word. You go me and I do
nothing for myself, but I speak to things as the
Father taught me.
Speaker 6: He is with me.
Speaker 1: He has not left me alone, for I always do
the things that are pleasing to him. So if Jesus
the Father he teach himself and send himself.
Speaker 25: Yes he did, Wow, Yes he did. The Holy Spirit
was given to him after he was baptized.
Speaker 4: That was proof that that has noting to do with this.
Speaker 25: God made himself a body and became a man to
redeem the world.
Speaker 1: He wants to preach. Can you stop preaching and engage
the argument here?
Speaker 4: He says, I was answering question, man, you or not
you went to.
Speaker 1: The Holy Spirit. But we didn't have to do this.
What is I the Holy Spirit? Would hear what you
just admit? Jesus says that I speak to things as
a father taught me. So, Jesus the Father, you want
me to now say, I only speak what the Father,
who happens to be me teaches me. So I'm teaching myself.
Speaker 25: Well, he was using himself as an example for us
because we did not know how to be reconciled back
to him. So he is the very example.
Speaker 1: He can tell us the truth in a way we
don't get confused. He doesn't have to speak as if
someone else is sending him if he's not someone else,
Because he said, he who suck me is with me.
He sent me, according to you, he that is me
set me. I set myself up.
Speaker 25: Jesus was acknowledging that he made himself a little lower
than the angel so that he could fulfill his own prophecy.
So as a man, as a man, he did not,
He did not put himself on the level as if
he is in heaven. Okay, because it is flesh, I
got something.
Speaker 4: But she was still in the flesh.
Speaker 9: Can you go say, I go to John six thirty eight.
Speaker 4: I just want to see what she would say to
the thirty eight.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, but no one's remember he's in the flesh. Dude,
what's wrong with you? Why are you so slow?
Speaker 4: Shot? I've always wanted to tell Sam where to go
in the bubble?
Speaker 5: All right?
Speaker 12: So sis, so right here it says, uh, for I
have come. I've come down from heaven not to do
my own will. But the will of him who sent
me is whose will is the father doing?
Speaker 25: Whose will is the father doing? The father is doing
his own will.
Speaker 4: But the father just said he's not doing his own
will the father.
Speaker 25: Okay, so there's a difference between the Father in heaven
and Jesus in the flesh. You have to acknowledge the flesh.
Speaker 4: That's true.
Speaker 12: But it says he came he came down from heaven.
So did the flesh come down from heaven or the father?
Speaker 4: The father?
Speaker 12: Okay, so the Father saying as he came down from heaven,
the father's coming down from heaven or he's in flesh.
Speaker 28: Right, But the Father also explained that he made himself
a little lower than the angels. So when the Father
was in the form of man, that's the difference than
the Father in heaven.
Speaker 4: Hardam I got you? So the Father in heaven, it
says here that he came down from heaven. So when
he came down, as he's coming down from heaven, he
already made the decision that his mission is to do
the will of the one who sent him, right, absolutely, Okay,
So before he comes to earth, he's already decided he's
not going to do his own will, but the will
of the one who sent him.
Speaker 5: So who said the father?
Speaker 9: And whose will is the Father doing?
Speaker 25: The Father sents his own will. I mean, the Father
is doing his own will.
Speaker 4: But do you see how it goes.
Speaker 1: But you're are you.
Speaker 25: Guys, does a trinitarian bring the flesh up in the
sense of you make the flesh of God.
Speaker 9: Or the flesh doesn't do anything. This is why we're
saying this.
Speaker 12: If you're saying that the Father doesn't do uh, the
Father does his own will, which we agree, this.
Speaker 4: Would mean that the person who's coming down from heaven
is not the Father.
Speaker 25: Somebody else who came down from heaven was the Father
in the flesh, you guys, just like you in the gay,
the whole flesh part. Then he came down as a man,
and now he's.
Speaker 4: I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 12: Problem is is that, as you already acknowledged, the flesh
did not come down from heaven, right, No, okay, So
the I who came down from heaven is not in
flesh yet.
Speaker 4: Yet he says he's gonna do not his own will,
but the will of him who sent him. He's not
in flushed speaking in the flesh when he said that
he was a man on earth. But when did he
come down from heaven? Was he in the flesh when
he came down from heaven.
Speaker 17: Or I'm sorry I repeat the question.
Speaker 9: Was he in flesh when he came down from heaven
or not.
Speaker 25: What do you mean, was he in flesh?
Speaker 17: I don't understand the question.
Speaker 12: You're saying that he's speaking in the flesh when he
says that I came down from heaven not to do
my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
Speaker 4: And that's only applying to the flesh.
Speaker 12: However, this is already said, and this is a decision
already made before he comes down.
Speaker 4: To earth, before he comes in flesh.
Speaker 25: Before the world was even created. This was already ordained.
Speaker 12: Yes, so before the world was created, the Father already
said before he took him flesh, that he's doing the
will of someone who sent him, not his own will.
Speaker 4: He said that to man on earth in flesh.
Speaker 25: It's like you're conflating the two because he didn't say
that from heaven. God did not speak that from heaven
to a man. He spoke that as a man in
the flesh.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you a question, Yes, it says in
verse six, God sent forth, the spirit of his son
was the spirit there with God before he sent him.
Say that again, if God sends forth, the spirit of
his son was the spirit there before sending How do
you send someone.
Speaker 5: That's not.
Speaker 4: He is the spirit?
Speaker 1: God sent forth the spirit of the son.
Speaker 16: What is he sending forth his own spirit?
Speaker 1: So the spirit was there when he sent him, right, the.
Speaker 4: Spirit his own spirit?
Speaker 25: Yes, So now you do know that God can be
at more than one place at one time. Right, you
do know that God is omnipresence preaching.
Speaker 1: And address the issue. So if God sent forth the spirit,
the spirit was there. Now you just destroyed your position. Yeah,
God send for.
Speaker 25: The spirit which is in a capital letter capital as
not little.
Speaker 1: As you want to preach, we can send you to
preach yourself. Listen to the debate.
Speaker 17: I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: God sent forth his son born of a woman. How
could Jesus have been the son before he was born
of a woman because he says, he said the son,
and then he was born of a woman. How could
the son have been there.
Speaker 25: Because he is this?
Speaker 1: He didn't say I sent myself to be born of
a woman to be the son. I sent forth the son,
and then here's one of a.
Speaker 25: Woman, right right, right, it's himself.
Speaker 4: It's not it's it's literally how it reads.
Speaker 25: God sent forth his son.
Speaker 9: That's that's him.
Speaker 1: That's that's read the passage. I'm gonna read it the
way you want me to tell me. If I'm reading
your son, God sent forth his son himself. He was
sent born of a woman under the law that God
sent forth the spirit of his Son, which is really
himself appearing the first thing.
Speaker 25: Absolutely, Yeah, I mean it is. It's even in capital letters.
Whatever he's talking about, holiness himself. It says the spirit
in capital, his son in capital.
Speaker 17: Yeah.
Speaker 9: I got one more question for you, and then we
got to wrap up this.
Speaker 4: I do appreciate you for coming.
Speaker 12: So, so you're saying that the son is the flesh, Yes, okay,
can you go to Hebrews one for me? Uh Sam,
We're gonna we're gonna do one of three, let's see,
all right. So it says, and it's a little small
for me. I'm a little moselle.
Speaker 20: But.
Speaker 4: I thank you, all right.
Speaker 12: So it says, so, God, having spoken long ago to
the fathers in the prophets, in many portions and in
many ways, in these last days, spoke to us.
Speaker 4: In his son, and that's the flesh, right all right.
So in his son, the flesh, whom.
Speaker 12: He appointed heir of all things, through whom also he
made the world.
Speaker 4: It says that God made the worlds through the Son.
Was all did all of creation was was creation made
through the flesh.
Speaker 25: No, but I don't think you understand that Jesus is
God even before he was made flesh.
Speaker 16: God's name is actually Jesus.
Speaker 5: Is something.
Speaker 16: He is the I am, okay, I am.
Speaker 1: I want you to listen. Okay, now I want your
tell me who is the Father talking to right here?
Hebrews one, eight to twelve. Listen, please carefully. But of
the Son, he says, So, who's speaking right now? He says,
But of the Son? He says, who is that?
Speaker 17: Who's from? Who's speaking?
Speaker 1: But of the so he says, who's that? He says,
who's speaking?
Speaker 16: God?
Speaker 1: Okay, so he's speaking to the son, right But of
the Son, he says.
Speaker 4: Right, God is speaking? Yes to who.
Speaker 1: I'm see right here, Firs saying, But of the Son,
he says.
Speaker 4: What skitch is this?
Speaker 5: Hold on?
Speaker 25: I'm don't have to go back and my batteries about
to die.
Speaker 9: Hold on, dude, we did the hard work for you
with them.
Speaker 25: What's the skip ship?
Speaker 1: What's the skip ship's breed? Hebrews one eight to twelve.
Does it say of the son, he says, right.
Speaker 25: Uh huh, so who's going to read it. I'm not
familiar with this, so I'm not quite sure. I don't
want to just start off talking my bad about to
die to just keep.
Speaker 1: Beating goodness, Dude, why don't we talk over each other?
Maybe we can understand each other.
Speaker 25: Okay, No, I was just saying my battery is gonna die.
Speaker 20: So.
Speaker 1: Energizing ready, Okay. But of the son, he says, if
you don't know who he is, and then you won't
get the point. He is speaking about the sun, your
throttle God just forever ever, rightness. There's a seven of
your kingdom. You have love, righteousness and aid of lawlessness. Therefore, God,
your God, has annoying you with the oil gladness above
your companion. So I want to make sure you got this.
The Father is talking of the sun. He says to
the son, your throat on God is forever and never right, right, Mohammed?
Speaker 5: Can you hear me? Bro?
Speaker 4: Harlem you there? But Harlem, harlm me there.
Speaker 1: Brian, how is it when you bark that you think
you're different from raby dogs some some guy in my catch? Yeah, Harlem,
I don't know. She left her brother. I think she.
Speaker 4: I think we left. But it's okay. We got to
wrap up anyway.
Speaker 9: That was fun.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we lost her. That was fun. Hey, I just
want to say, Man, thanks for.
Speaker 1: Coming for you, bro, But you tortured me.
Speaker 6: Man.
Speaker 1: I'm like I lost a lot of brain brain cells.
Speaker 13: That was fun.
Speaker 9: Man, Oh my goodness, one is modalist.
Speaker 1: You got close at one time to five thousand. Why
are you so pop to learn out?
Speaker 6: Man?
Speaker 9: Shoot man a glorious guy.
Speaker 4: Man. He takes us up, Man, he raises us up. Man.
Speaker 5: You know what it is? Man? What it is?
Speaker 12: Any last words between my two brothers who joined us today, Man, Jay,
Any any last words in extream, any words of encouragement
to the listeners.
Speaker 11: I think we've got We've seen a lot of people
unfamiliar with the Bible. So I mean we got to
get our heads back in the Bible and reading again.
And people need to read Hebrews, they need to read
the Book of John, they need to read the Psalms.
So I'm saying it to myself too. I mean, we
all got to get back in the word.
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, but it's Sam.
Speaker 1: All all I can say is you keep doing these sessions.
You're gonna get to be a very bitter, angry person
by the time you're fifty two. We're going to be
gusting people out morse than me. You're going to be
lous of people like lightning. Because you think you're patient. Now,
wait till you get fifty two.
Speaker 11: You're gonna make You're gonna get gray in that beard
right there, really quick, and.
Speaker 1: He's going to make you like the whole Christian a person.
Speaker 4: Thank you, sir, You're a false prophet. Both of you
are false prophets, both of you. Man.
Speaker 9: Well, thank you guys all for hanging out with us.
Speaker 6: Man.
Speaker 4: Yes, we did reach a little over five thousand total
viewers channels.
Speaker 9: Man, so that was awesome.
Speaker 12: Glory be to God. I pray that you guys are
blessed by this. Uh oh, we got one more question
before before we end. Someone's asking how do we as
Christians make sense that Jesus would often keep his identity
secret and at times reveal his identity with John A
da Thanks. If you guys, can somebody really short, I.
Speaker 11: Would just say that, you know, he says in the
Parables the Mysteries that the kingdom are not for everybody
there for his disciples and for his people. So depending
upon who he's talking to, who the audience context is,
it's going to determine what he reveals and what he doesn't.
You know, he waits until Simon Peters says you're the
son of God and then he blesses Peter. So it
just kind of depends on the appropriate time and context.
Speaker 1: That's the answer.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for that, brother, all right, and another
super chat.
Speaker 12: Thank you for the amazing stream. I am excited to
start reading the Bible. Yes, guys, get into your word,
meditate on your word, all right, and equip yourself study
to show yourselves approved. Because there are a lot of
people who are confused, a lot of heretics out there.
A lot of people are just like Jay said earlier,
they're just unaware of what the Bible teaches man, And
I think that just with a little bit of awareness,
with some study and some humility, I think it will
clear up a lot of the problems when it comes
to people's theology. So that's pretty much all we need.
We also got a blessing to Sam and his daughters,
So God bless your daughter Sam.
Speaker 4: Praying for.
Speaker 1: Ray will be healthy enough. I want to see him
next week. Finally, by the grace of God and the
Lord bless us.
Speaker 9: Hey man.
Speaker 4: All right, with that being said, guys, thank you for coming.
Speaker 9: That's it.
Speaker 12: Thank you for all the people who participated today. Sorry
that I couldn't get to all of you guys, but
again we did go four hours over four hours, all right,
So now it's time for me to go get some dinner.
Gonna let these brothers go and