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Speaker 1: We're Tom Lorenzo.

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Speaker 2: And this is the Pop Style Opinion Fest. Hello, and

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welcome back to another edition of the PSO. I am

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the Tea and you're Telo Tom Fitzgerald, and I'm here

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with the low and your Tilo Lorenzo because my love

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the husband. It is the day before Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 1: And I'm gonna eat my favorite thing ever, which is

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pumpkin pie.

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Speaker 2: Not tomorrow, Well we are, I'll buy one for you

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will get more than your share of pumpkin pie over

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the next several weeks.

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Speaker 1: And then you have to explain why not tomorrow? All right?

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Speaker 2: So here we people say that they love hearing our

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holiday plans. Our holiday plans this year are rather low key.

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My family Thanksgiving is a blended of Thanksgiving with my

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cousins from New York. It has always been that way

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my whole life. It goes back to my parents living

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in New York so and then over the it was

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always obviously on Thanksgiving Day, and then over the years

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as everyone aged and the family got larger and larger

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and larger, it got harder and harder for everyone to

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get together on the day of Thanksgiving because you know,

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they had in laws that they wanted to see and stuff,

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So about ten years ago.

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Speaker 1: Ten years, it's that long. It was.

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Speaker 2: It was after my mom died, and that was ten

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years ago. My one cousin and I talked about it

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and said, you know what, we should just move this

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to the Saturday after Thanksgiving. It would just be easier.

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So tomorrow we're not really doing much of anything. My

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sister's coming over to spend the day with us, and

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I will do like Lorenzo's vegetarians, and I'm not going

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to cook some elaborate to two pronged meals. So I'm

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doing my signature butter not squash and sage lasagna. The

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recipe is on Marthastewart dot com. You can find it.

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I've been using it for fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing.

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Speaker 2: It's a very good lasagna, and it's it's got that

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you know, autumnal feel to it because it's got you know,

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sage and butternut. But it's surprisingly light. It's one of

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those lasagnas that is surprisingly well, has no meat in it.

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And I make my own noodles, because of course you

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do well. This is a recipe that Martha actually suggests

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that you use. You make your own noodles, And one

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time I made it with store bought noodles and it

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wasn't right right because store bought noodles tend to be thick.

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And this, this is a recipe that calls for super this.

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If you want to make it and you don't have

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a pasta maker, then go look for the the sheets

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of lasagna noodles, the kind that you get in the

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refrigerated section. Those are thinner and you can actually roll

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them out a little bit before you boil them. So anyway,

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that's for tomorrow. And Lorenzo loves an apple I mean

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he loves a pumpkin pie. But I told him I

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can't make a butternut squash lasagna and a pumpkin pie.

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That's just way too much a pumpkin. So I'll do

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my apple pie, which is the New York Times recipe.

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And the upshot of that is there's two ways of

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do an apple pie in America. You either dump the

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apples into the pie shell raw with some butter, or

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you cook them on the stove and you make a filling.

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I much much much prefer the latter method. I like

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an apple pie filling. I do not like crunchy apple pie.

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I don't like biting into an apple pie and having

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to crunch the apples. And I also don't think if

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you do them raw, I don't think release enough juice.

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So when I say cooked on the stove, I you

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know you dice up the apples. And the best way

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to do an apple pie is you dice up the

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apples there regularly. Some pieces should be really small, some

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pieces should be chunky. And part of the reason you

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do that is, well, it's just a better mouthfeel. You want,

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you know, various sizes of but also the tinier pieces

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tend to dissolve and they help create the sauce. So

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the you cook it on the stove with maybe a

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tablespoon or two of sugar. I can't remember how much butter. Really,

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whoever much butter, you want some cinnamon, and you just

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sort of par cook them. You do not get them

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super soft. You just you melt the butter, You dissolve

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the sugar, You sprinkle a little corn starts over it

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so that the it'll thicken. But you don't cook it

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for more than five minutes, and you don't cook it

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at high heat. You just want slightly cooked apples that

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have released their juices into a butter and corn starch

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mixture and then the thing to finish it off. And

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I have done this. I have done apple pies without

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doing it, and I have done apple pies after I

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figured out doing it. And I feel like this is

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the PSTA resistance. This is what actually gets it to

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pure apple pie flavor, which is, when you're done cooking

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the apples, you sprinkle balsamic vinegar, not too much, no

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more than maybe a tablespoon over it, and a lot

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of recipes say apple cider vinegar, And of course that

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makes the most sense and it probably will increase the

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appleness of the flavor, but balsamic adds sort of a

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dark sweetness to it. It really lends a roundness to

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the flavor. So if you're doing an apple pie, that

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is my tip. Slightly cook the apples in butter, sugar,

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and cornstarch and then sprinkle some balsamic vinegar on top

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and then you dump that into your podcrest. I'm also

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going to make a for tomorrow bourbon brown sugar ice cream,

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oh right, right right, which I've made before.

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Speaker 1: And it's it. I have to say this. I mean,

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we bought a machine. Uh you know an iker a

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long time ago, and we bought like a broth.

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Speaker 2: We bought it a like Marshall's marsh It was queeze

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on art. Yeah, that was I think we we paid

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forty dollars for it in Marshalls, which means it was

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probably one hundred and twenty dollars. That was original.

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Speaker 1: And I looked at it. They looked like all plastic

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and stuff like this is not going to work. Makes

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the most amazing I scream.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also still puttering along. It's got to be

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close to twenty years old.

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Speaker 1: I know, but we we use it. You use it

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and it makes incredible ice cream.

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Speaker 2: And then on Saturday, when the whole family gets together,

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I will be bringing corn bread stuffing which I've been

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making for cheese thirty years at this point, and a

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pumpkin cheesecake, and what we call the Uncle Joke of cakes.

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When my mother was a little girl, her mother used

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to make a special cake for my mother's brother, my

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uncle Joe, and it really wasn't She made it every Thanksgiving.

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And to most people this would not be a Thanksgiving

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style cake, but to my this to me represents Thanksgiving

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because I've had every Thanksgiving since I was a baby,

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and so did my mother before her. It's just a

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yellow cake with chocolate icing. And my grandmother used to

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put chopped walnuts on top. But she used to make

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a cake, very nineteen fifty sort of thing to do. Yeah,

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she used to do a whole cake. And then in

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the years since when I started taking over the the

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baking of stuff for the for the meal, and I

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only do a couple everybody, there's like thirty five people,

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and people bring desserts and everything, so I'm not solely responsible.

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Speaker 1: We get stuff for New York.

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Speaker 2: So in the last couple of years, because the dessert

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table has gotten so big, I reduced it down to cupcakes.

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I'm just going to do a dozen cupcakes in honor

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of Uncle Joe. And Uncle Joe's long gone, my mom's

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long gone. Her mom is of course fifty years long gone.

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So you know, it's just a family tribute. It's just

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a continuity sort of thing. And I guess this year

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it probably feels a little more important because Uncle Joe

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was long gone, but his wife just passed this year,

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and so and myn n was the last of that generation.

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It's really the end of an era, the the grown

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ups are all gone.

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Speaker 1: Wow, so I just thought about it. Yeah, there's any

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her generation anymore. And anyway, but Tom is a fantastic baker.

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He really is.

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Speaker 2: Yes he does, Yes, Yes, I am, well, I am

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he is.

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Speaker 1: Seriously, he makes the most amazing stuff.

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Speaker 2: So I'll say it again. I would not last past

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the second episode of any any bake off show. I

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can follow recipe. I have about a dozen good recipes

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that I turn to when I need to impress people.

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I have basic technique skills, but I would never present

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my I have no decorative skills. Like I cannot decorate

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a cake to make it look impressive. I can, but

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I can deliver you a cake that's kind of just yeah,

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taste amazing.

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Speaker 1: But that's what I like about your baking is because

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it's like, in a way basic, And by that I

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mean like just home baking. Yeah, home baking comfany food

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that tastes amazing, and it doesn't have to look like,

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you know, from a very fancy bakery. I mean it

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doesn't have to, but it's delicious everything. I mean, the

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whole place smells amazing.

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Speaker 2: When you make anything, well, I will be getting to

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work shortly after we flip off these mics to get

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well the ice cream, I gotta get that started almost immediately, So.

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Speaker 1: That ends our cooking with Chilo.

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Speaker 2: And of course the decorating for Christmas has already started.

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Yeah yeah, yeah, but it's so elaborate now that it

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takes ten days to pull it all together. The tree

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is u and it is fully fluffed, but it takes

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days to pluck. It takes a full day to fluff it.

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I have not begun the light situation. I'm time dreading

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it because it does take a really long time. There

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are something like six or seven strings of lights and

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they all need to be You can't plug them all

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into the same power strip because it'll blow out. So

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every single you can, and you can't plug them all

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in together. So every string of lights has its own

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has its own extension cord, and they each run out

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to two different power strips on either side of the tree.

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Because we use the c seven bulbs, which are the

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screw in light bulbs, the nineteen fifty style bulbs, and

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they they'll blow out a fuse if you try and

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plug them all in together. You can't plug them all together,

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and you can't plug a bunch of them into the

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same outlet, so you know, this is how it's done.

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Every single string has an extension cord that runs down

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the center of the tree and out the bottom, and

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that just takes oh my god, it takes so much time.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's what takes more time.

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Speaker 2: I actually like dreading it this year. And you know why,

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because we didn't put up the tree last year. Right,

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I'm a little out of practice. Last year we went

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to the German Christmas markets all through Christmas and we

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didn't decorate our house because we didn't want to leave

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it bed, Like, we didn't want to leave a ten

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foot tree up with three cats who were freaking out

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because they were alone. So we never decorated last year.

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And now I'm like, I'm totally out of practice.

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Speaker 1: Alone without uh, let me just I had that we

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had someone taking care.

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Speaker 2: Of them anyway, that's it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So so we're exciting. We're excited because.

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Speaker 2: We're exciting too. We're very exciting.

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Speaker 1: We're exciting. We're very excited because there's a ton of

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new stuff we bought in Germany, in Belgium, you name it.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know where it's.

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Speaker 1: It's just great stuff that we bought new and Paris

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we bought Christmas right now. I know, it's so funny.

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We we actually one of our listeners and readers mentioned

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the store in Paris and he said he sent a

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lovely man and said, you guy should go to the store.

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And I was actually thinking about it. So we went

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and it was all Christmas stuff, like floors of Christmas stuff,

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and we bought a couple of things. And it's nights.

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I mean we have we bought uh the Eiffel Tower, Uh,

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you know another one, uh, and some other stuff. But yeah,

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we we have new ornaments and new Christmas stuff from many,

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many places.

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Speaker 2: That's true. All right, let's get into our topics of

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the week, which are very simple. This is a very

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simple We're assuming some of you are either preparing your

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meal while you're listening to this or telling the rest

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of the world to fuck off and you hate this holiday,

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so it's your pre holiday comfort. Listen, that's what we're

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trying to do here. And we're just going to talk

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about two movies, both of which well one of which

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is on streaming, one of which is inescapable. We're going

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to talk about Train Dreams, The Joel Edgerton Felicity Jones

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movie that dropped on Netflix last week, and we're going

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to talk about Wicked too, Wicked Forgod that we went

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out to see last night specifically to have something to

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talk about today, and we grumpily sat through the whole thing.

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But well, okay, we'll have good things to say about

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it too, not much so Train Dreams. I'm not we

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will not be spoiling this film to give you a

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chance to go and see it. We're going to talk

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about it, but we're not gonna We're not going to

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spoil parts of the plot, so you don't have to

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worry about that. Wicked. Yeah, we're going to get into

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the details of Wicked, and that'll be the latter half

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of this podcast. And you know, again, I'll give some

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warning that we're about to spoil things, but I mean,

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what what do you I guess there are certain character

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fits that you might not know if you're not familiar

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with the material, but we will be talking about that stuff.

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So Dreams, Lorenzo you go.

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Speaker 1: I was excited the minute we put the preview on

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our site, posted the preview on our site. I got

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very excited about it. It's my kind of movie. It

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reminded me a lot of the Power of the Dog

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type of movie with Kirsten Dunn, directed by Jane Camp

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that kind of movie. It slow paces. If you don't

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like that kind of movie, you're not gonna like it.

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But it's that kind of like, you know, let's just

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tell a story here of someone.

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Speaker 2: Of someone's life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you like that kind of movie, which

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I adore, love worship of that kind of movie, I

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just couldn't wait to watch it and I absolutely loved it,

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loved it. Cry my eyes out towards the end and

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we'll get interesting. Yes, Oh my god. I was like

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sobbing towards the end because I there's nothing more than

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I love an adore in terms of filmmaking than tell

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the story of like an ordinary person. I mean, that's

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my my favorite thing. I agree with that. I just

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love it. It centers me, It makes me think, It

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just makes me a better person. I know that sounds

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so big, but it does me.

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Speaker 2: It's one of those films that posits a very basic

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essential point, which is that every life is worth living

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and every life is worth examining, and that is lovely

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and uplifting. And I didn't sob at the end of it.

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And but I will I don't really have criticisms of

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this film. I think it's lovely, I think it's I

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would recommend it to anyone, But I will say that

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I didn't think it was It didn't offer anything new.

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It was a very simple story. I felt like, in

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some respects we had seen this film before, we had

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seen versions of this story before, so it really wasn't

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offering me anything new. And I did. I came to

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terms with that. But I mean, there was a point,

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probably about past the halfway point of the film where

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I thought, oh, okay, so this isn't going anywhere. It's

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just going to be his life. And again that's not

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spoiling anything. There's not like major twists and turns and

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oh my god and this and that. It doesn't have

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that sort of cinematic feel where it's all going to

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be wrapped up in a bow for you at the end.

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It's just going to offer you this man's life, this

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man's story and perspective, and let it unfold for you.

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It's the type of film that is extremely, extremely performance specific.

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If you don't get the right person in the lead role,

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because they are going to carry that entire film. And

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this is the type of character who doesn't speak all

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that much, so Joel Edgington has to carry the entire

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film almost silently.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the first thing that surprised me, because I

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usually don't like movies with voiceover narration. I usually don't

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excuse me, but there's no way you could have this

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movie without it.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's Will Patton provides the voiceover, and it's

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it's lovely and spare. It doesn't over explain things, and

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you almost feel like you're essentially getting the inner thoughts

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of this.

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Speaker 1: Man exactly exactly and and and oh my god, Joe

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Edgerton Jesus Christ. First of all, he's I've always thought

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he was gorgeous, the most one of the most beautiful

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actors out there in my opinion, And he's so good.

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He's perfect, perfect for this real perfect. I thought he

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was amazing. I was actually watching an interview with him

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and he talks about that, the fact that he you know,

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there was not a lot to say. It was pretty

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much him working, doing things, moving around. You know. I

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also have to say, Felicity Jones did a fantastic job.

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I thought she was good but I was in love

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with Carrie. Uh my god, her character.

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Speaker 2: You're raised through a bunch anyway, I'm just.

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Speaker 1: Talking about acting in general. I'm talking about acting in general.

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I thought everyone was good, Yeah, just the perfect, you

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know performance.

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Speaker 2: With Felicity Jones, she is very good, but it's a

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nothing part. Yeah, And I felt a little bad for

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her because it's very similar to the part that she

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had in last year's The Brutalist, where she is just

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she's the wife. She's she's the wife figure. You know.

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The male character is in love with her, he does

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things for her, he worships her, he thinks about her,

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but she does not have a lot of agency in

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that story, which is you know, I mean, it's not

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that story. It's definitely not her story. It's her story.

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But you need a wife, but you need a wife.

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So I just felt that it was a shame that

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she had done two of these in a row. She

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does a great job with it, and she she's always

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a watchable actress. I have no problem with her performance whatsoever.

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But I just felt, Okay, so she's the wife Kerrie Condon.

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I thought she was giving a slightly odd performance, and

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every once in a while I've said this before, where

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you're in a film, you're watching a film and then

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you come up against someone you realize, oh right, nobody

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in this film is American. Joel Legeriton is Australian, Felicity

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Jones is British, Kerry Condon is Irish. They're all playing

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Americans and it's fine. But then we got to carry

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Condon and I'm like, wow, she's really working hard. Yeah,

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I like I should do that accent.

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Speaker 1: I was watching an interview with him and I forgot, like,

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how thick his accent. It goes like Jesus great, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Fine, everybody's fine. It's just like when you have three

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actors from three different three English speaking actors from three

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different countries, three wildly different accents, and they're all trying

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to play Pacific Northwest early twentieth century accents. It's fine,

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but I did when I got to carry Condon. That's

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when I was like, oh right, nobody hears American. They're

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all acting like Americans. She's another one. And again, this

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isn't a criticism in the film. This is not a

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woman's story. It is very much a man's story, and

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it's the story of a very sensitive man, and so

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it's not macho or anything like that. But the women,

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they just come in and out of the story. They

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don't they affect him. But those characters are not They

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don't have much agency on their own. There is a

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wonderful scene with Carrie Condon on the Firewatch with the

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two of them talking where I actually did burst into tears,

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where she reveals something about her own you know what

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I'm talking about, And the connection between those characters was powerful.

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Speaker 1: I thought her character was great because it's someone.

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Speaker 2: Who I thought she wasn't well drawn.

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Speaker 1: No, I thought he was. She was great, someone who traveled,

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someone who had experienced seeing other things and finally realized

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that now she wants peace and quiet, right, And I

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thought that was brilliant. I thought that, I thought. And

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she just gave enough to him, fed him enough.

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Speaker 2: I agree with that, and.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to give anything away, but I didn't. Yeah,

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when they got together, it was like, really, are we

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really going to go there or whatever? Are they talking?

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What is going on here? And then you know, she

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just gives him amazing advice advice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Also William Mason, Bill Macy or William Macy actually

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William Yeah, I think he's probably going to get a

390
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nomination out of that perform. It was a quietly heartbreaking performance,

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just quiet and dignified. And here's what I mean about

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and this is not a failure of the actresses this,

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but I mean William H. Macy wasn't given a lot

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of material, but he gave you fully a live human being,

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a fully realized human being. And I do feel like

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the two female characters, they're more figures than actual people

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in his story. And again that could be very deliber

398
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As I said, this is a man's story and early twenties,

399
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and it is a story in many ways about traditional

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masculinity and what that entails. In some ways, it is

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an ode to traditional masculinity in the sense that he

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is a quiet man who works the land, who doesn't

403
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have much to say, you know, that sort of thing,

404
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who sticks to his commitments, who loves fiercely. That's he,

405
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and it's it's a lovely, uplifting view to remind you

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that in this day and age, masculinity isn't a dirty word.

407
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Misculinity does not necessarily have to mean aggression or violence

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or what a toxic you know it is. It is

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a corrective to that idea and it's not it works

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on that level. I did think a couple of times

411
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early in the film, I was like, Wow, these because

412
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it's all early in the film. He's a lagger in

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the Pacific Northwest at the at the just before World

414
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War One, and so it's all men out in the

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woods shopping down trees, and I did think those those

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scenes are loving. They really are lovingly reconstructed around the

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campfire and all that. But I kept thinking, Wow, these

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men are well groomed, clean and extremely well spoken for

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where they are. Joel Edgerton never looked anything less than

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beautiful throughout the movie. It's not that he was gleaming

421
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white and perfect, but it's a very sort of clean,

422
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benign look at a certain point in history. It's not inaccurate,

423
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and it does have a a point to it. And

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there is something in the book. Did you read about the.

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Speaker 1: Book it's based on on a book by there's a.

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Speaker 2: Major change which I'll just without giving too much away,

427
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I'll say in the movie he witnesses something that affects

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him for the rest of his life deeply. But in

429
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the book he actually is involved in it. He actually

430
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does something, and that is what changes the story. And

431
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when I read that, I was like, oh, that's why.

432
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That's why everything felt so unusually benign and clean, is

433
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because they deliberately took out part of the story that

434
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would have cast him in a terrible light. And again

435
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I respect this. None of this is criticism. I'm like, oh, okay,

436
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so this is they literally cleaned up his past in

437
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,599
order to tell a specific version of this story, and

438
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it is slightly different from the version in the book.

439
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But I get why, because the whole point of it

440
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was to show a good man leading a good, quiet life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a simple man.

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Speaker 2: A simple and good man, and in the book he

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had done something really terrible. So I understand why that

444
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was taken out, and it actually helped me accept why

445
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this was such a benign view.

446
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Speaker 1: But I appreciate a lot of things. First of all,

447
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that they touched on racism and all that quite a bit,

448
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quite a bit, which I was surprised.

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Speaker 2: I was Asian anti Chinese racism.

450
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you know a little bit of history,

451
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then you appreciate that they inserted that there. I also

452
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liked a relationship with the other workers and from from

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various ages.

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Speaker 2: It was just relaxed masculinity and a very it was

455
00:25:29,839 --> 00:25:32,000
it was actually really nice to say it was nice,

456
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whether you accept that the truth of that, that's that

457
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it was nice.

458
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Speaker 1: To see the different generations working together like what you

459
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were and what you're going to be eventually.

460
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Speaker 2: And the boots nailed to the tree. I know, it's

461
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just so touching. It's so touching.

462
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Speaker 1: I was really touched by the whole thing. I was

463
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touched by the yeah, because again because it's a story

464
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of a simple person. And I appreciate that. I think

465
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we're we tend to expect too much of people, or

466
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expect to complicate their story, complicate things, and even in

467
00:26:02,599 --> 00:26:05,359
real life, I think we have so high expectations of

468
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,359
everything that you know, that's why you know people are

469
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said and unhappy, I feel. So I appreciate those stories. Uh,

470
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and the story of a simple person. And everybody matters.

471
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I think that's the point here.

472
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Speaker 2: Everybody, every life matters, every life matters.

473
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,559
Speaker 1: I keep saying this. I always say this when I

474
00:26:24,599 --> 00:26:27,960
travel internationally, when I go to another country, that I

475
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,759
always come back thinking that, my my god, I'm just

476
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:31,880
a little dot.

477
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,799
Speaker 2: Yeah on a big plan.

478
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: So I appreciate that perspective. Every time I come back

479
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,920
from from a travel, you know, from a trip abroad,

480
00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:45,160
is that Yeah, you're just one, and you know and

481
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,119
and but everybody matters, everybody. Everybody's a life. Yeah, everybody's

482
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:50,400
a light.

483
00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: So it's a highly recommended for your holiday weekend. It's

484
00:26:56,039 --> 00:26:59,319
break thing to sit down and watch on Thanksgiving night

485
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,279
if you want it. It's just a very touching, gentle

486
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,319
story of a life. And as I said, I know

487
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,279
that our reader, our listenership exkews towards women and gay men,

488
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,079
and maybe that doesn't sound maybe an exploration of traditional

489
00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:21,599
masculinity doesn't doesn't sound like something you want. But I

490
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:27,039
actually found it. I don't know. It was uplifting in

491
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:30,640
a way to listen. This isn't like some inceet complaint

492
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,519
like we need more positive portrayals of men or whatever

493
00:27:33,599 --> 00:27:36,200
that sort of thing. But it was just nice to

494
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,640
see someone show you to be a man in the

495
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,839
traditional sense. Does not necessarily have to mean what has

496
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,839
been piled on to the meaning of that in the

497
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,119
years since. And maybe this is not Maybe this character's

498
00:27:51,839 --> 00:27:54,599
life is not historically correct. Maybe he would have been

499
00:27:54,599 --> 00:27:56,799
more racist, maybe he would have been more violent, right

500
00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:01,839
exactly in reality, but it's not a hisdocument. It's a story,

501
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,559
and as a story, it's a beautiful one. So yeah,

502
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,559
highly recommended Train Dreams on Netflix. Watch it over your

503
00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:12,720
holiday weekend. All right, all right, so we're going to

504
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:14,160
take a short break and then we're going to come

505
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:19,319
back to talk a lot about Wicked for Good. We're back.

506
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,519
They're starting to make noise next door, so we might

507
00:28:21,559 --> 00:28:24,400
be cutting this short. We'll see. We're gonna barrel our

508
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:24,720
way through it.

509
00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:25,519
Speaker 1: We always see this.

510
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 2: We've been saying this for you now and they're not

511
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,319
stopping this. They're nowhere near close to this building being done.

512
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,799
So in case you were wondering anyway, okay, Wicked for Good.

513
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,599
You know, we did a podcast about Wicked exactly a

514
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,359
year ago. We went out to see it and then

515
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,880
did a review of it. And I was reviewing, doing

516
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,039
certain site review stuff. When I realized that, I was like, oh,

517
00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:51,079
we went out the night it came. We should do

518
00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:53,799
that again this week. So I floated that idea to Lorenzo. I,

519
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,279
so why don't we just go out and see it?

520
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,160
And I'm telling you that because otherwise I would not

521
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,759
have gone out to see this. I wasn't rushing. I

522
00:29:01,799 --> 00:29:04,119
did want to see the first one in the theater.

523
00:29:05,319 --> 00:29:07,920
I was less inclined to want to see this one

524
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,960
because I'm not a fan of Wicked. I was not.

525
00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:15,680
I was never a big fan of Wicked, and you know,

526
00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:19,359
the musical, the play right right, right right, and whatever

527
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,400
curiosity I had about it on screen was satisfied by

528
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,359
the first film. Like, I really didn't need to see

529
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,160
the second film, especially since we all know how it ends.

530
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: I kind of feel the same. I liked the original

531
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,160
movie period. I don't like anything after that. Don't want

532
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,279
to say I'm not crazy read I was. I was

533
00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:39,480
never a fan of the play or the musical. Yeah,

534
00:29:39,519 --> 00:29:43,079
never had no interest. I usually don't like when you

535
00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:46,000
take a story and you create a story based on a.

536
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: I'm going to go off on that in a minute.

537
00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: I don't like. I usually don't like that, you know,

538
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,640
call me a purist, whatever you want to call me.

539
00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:55,519
I usually like, you know, he worked, leave it alone.

540
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,000
That's my take. Creating a whole book based on your

541
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:02,000
oge own imagination about what could be or could be,

542
00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:04,200
you know, anyway, it's your choice.

543
00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:06,839
Speaker 2: I read the original Gregory McGuire book when it came

544
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:08,799
out in like two thousand and four or whatever.

545
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: So I knew about the play. Let me just finish

546
00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:14,720
my thought. I knew about the play. I knew everybody

547
00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:16,799
talked about how the first part of the play is great,

548
00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:19,160
the second part is not so great, blah blah blah.

549
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,000
So I knew all that, so I was curious to

550
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,640
see how they were going to do the second part

551
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,279
of the movie, and then you know, we're going to

552
00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:29,519
talk about it. But it was interesting. I knew the

553
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,519
expectation based on what people were saying, not that I

554
00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:35,640
saw the music or the play, never did or read

555
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,440
the book, but you know, I knew it wasn't going

556
00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:40,079
to be as great as the first one, so I

557
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,400
was kind of expecting that, but it was actually worth

558
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:44,039
an expected.

559
00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: I read the original Gregory McGuire book when it came out,

560
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,000
and I thought it was interesting at the time, but

561
00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:55,799
I also felt in the sense that it had created

562
00:30:55,359 --> 00:31:01,200
a sort of literary trope of trying to go back

563
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,200
into stories to explain everything you thought you knew was

564
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,440
wrong kind of thing, and it was done with a

565
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,119
lot of fairy tales. In the last twenty five years,

566
00:31:09,359 --> 00:31:12,400
it's been a lot of deconstructing of fairy tales and

567
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,559
stories and that sort of thing. And when you look

568
00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:19,240
at something like the Maleficent movies, they would not have

569
00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:22,640
existed without Wicked. That is, the Maleficent movies are essentially

570
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:23,920
Wicked without music.

571
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:24,559
Speaker 1: Interesting.

572
00:31:25,599 --> 00:31:30,119
Speaker 2: And I bring that up because in the opening scenes

573
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,759
of the film, I was like, Yeah, this is why

574
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,000
I just am not big on these stories where you

575
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,279
try and go in and explain everything and give everything

576
00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:43,440
a backstory. And when you do that, this is what

577
00:31:43,519 --> 00:31:46,839
happened with Maleficent. You inevitably have to turn a witch

578
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,119
into a hero. And a witch can be a hero,

579
00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:52,319
of course you can. They can, but in both Maleficens

580
00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:55,240
case and Alphabet's case, they turn them into superheroes where

581
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,599
they are literally flying around and kicking ass and beating

582
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,960
up people. And and I remember those opening scenes with

583
00:32:02,119 --> 00:32:04,880
Alpha but being super Alphaba, I was like, yeah, can't

584
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,359
a witch be a witch? Like witches have a long

585
00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:11,519
dark history cover and most of our iconography of witches,

586
00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:14,160
including the Wicked Witch of the West, arises out of

587
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,880
ancient European traditions, myths and folklore, and all of that's gone.

588
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,319
She's flying around like a Marvel superhero.

589
00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: It.

590
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: You know, if you like deconstructed stories like this, then great,

591
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,279
I don't because when you deconstruct it, you take all

592
00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:34,480
of the mystery, all of the magic out of the story.

593
00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:39,519
You don't when you start explaining why the monkeys have

594
00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:43,599
wings or is showing the construction of the yellow brick road,

595
00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:46,240
I'm like, who the fuckre like what? This does not

596
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,400
enrich the story. It just adds superfluous details to it.

597
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,119
And this is the problem with the second act of

598
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,359
Wicked or Wicked for Good. It's nothing but that the

599
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:03,079
first act of Wicked or the first film. It's not deconstructing.

600
00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:06,680
It's more or less constructing another side story behind the

601
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,319
original story. But then you get into the second act

602
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,319
and it's about, well, here's why there's a tin man,

603
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,240
and here's why there's a scarecrow, and here's why there's

604
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:16,200
a cowardly lyon.

605
00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: If you hadn't had added all these characters from the

606
00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:22,440
original movie, I felt like it was just be rehashing

607
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,599
the whole thing that we saw, you know for the

608
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:25,200
first movie.

609
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, can I just find it? So I didn't need

610
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,799
to know why there's It never occurred to me to

611
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,960
wonder why there was a tin woodsman and what his

612
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:40,079
origin was. It never occurred to me to wonder why

613
00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:42,920
there was a talking scarecrow. It was a story for children,

614
00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:45,759
It had fairy tale qualities to it, It had whimsical

615
00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:49,039
qualities to it. You really when you try and explain

616
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,480
that stuff. First off, the explanations are free and stupid.

617
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,480
I mean they're dumb. Number one. You can just explain

618
00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:01,039
everything away with magic. So magic, okay, So the scarecrow

619
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:03,640
was a scarecrow because of magic, and the tin Woodsman

620
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,480
is a tin woodsman. I shouldn't note that we are.

621
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,400
I haven't spoiled anything yet, but we are going to

622
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,960
spoil certain things about how those things happen. I won't

623
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,400
get into that yet. But the general idea of deconstructing

624
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,199
a story for children written a hundred years ago and

625
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,840
trying to make an action blockbuster in twenty twenty five,

626
00:34:26,039 --> 00:34:28,800
I just was so turned off by the whole thing.

627
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,360
I just did not care. Like I said, in the

628
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,159
first Wicked movie, it felt like a story was being constructed,

629
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,400
whereas in the second it felt like it was all

630
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,320
being narrowed down so we could get everyone into position

631
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,639
for the Wizard of Oz. So we had to explain

632
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,719
the Scarecrow, the tin men. We haven't. We had to

633
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,719
bring in Dorothy, but of course, wink wink, we're not

634
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,000
going to show her face or have anything to do

635
00:34:54,079 --> 00:34:57,440
with her. And this is if you never saw the

636
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,400
Wizard of Oz, and I realized, who the hell would

637
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,760
watch Wicked if they hadn't didn't understand the Wizard right right,

638
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,480
But I guess they thought they were being clever, and

639
00:35:05,519 --> 00:35:07,880
I know the stage show is more or less the

640
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,360
same way. Is that they don't really get into Dorothy's story.

641
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,719
But Dorothy's story impacts the main character. Dorothy quote kills

642
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,360
the Wicked Witch of the West, so we have to

643
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,639
have her in the story, but they don't. They don't

644
00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:26,280
do anything with her. So the literally one of the

645
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,119
most important aspects of the story happens off screen. Wink wink,

646
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,519
you know she kills the witch. We don't actually see

647
00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:35,360
it because oh, we saw it in the original movie.

648
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,639
But if you step back and look at this movie

649
00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:42,400
and take it on its own terms, without without all

650
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,079
the references that it's making to another film, that story

651
00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:50,760
fails completely. Nothing makes sense. Nothing, any of the characters

652
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,639
are doing makes any sense. And suddenly there's, you know,

653
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,760
there's this other character whose face we're not seeing, who

654
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,360
winds up killing the main character and we don't know

655
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,480
anything about. And I get it. We all know Darthy's story.

656
00:36:04,519 --> 00:36:07,239
We don't quote unquote need it retold. But actually, if

657
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,360
you are hinging the entire third act of your movie

658
00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:14,440
on her story, right, and you refuse to tell her story,

659
00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:16,880
that is a very weird third act.

660
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: Well, the director gave an interview. I actually put it

661
00:36:19,039 --> 00:36:23,320
in on the post, the lounge post as one of

662
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,000
the articles. He gives an interview and explain why we

663
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,960
don't see her face because he wants to keep it

664
00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:31,639
a mystery. So what's the mystery? So he's basically answering

665
00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:35,360
you a question. He expects everyone to know that character,

666
00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:38,079
the story and when you go see the movie, so

667
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,320
to keep the mystery to you know, so it's everyone's Dorothy.

668
00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:44,519
We all have our own Dorothy. And he didn't want

669
00:36:44,519 --> 00:36:45,719
to that's a bullshit. I know.

670
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:49,199
Speaker 2: I know you are a filmmaker. Make your film, like,

671
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,840
don't do this. Oh, I'll let you all imagine what

672
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,159
she looked like. Make your movie and if you it

673
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,119
just felt really unbalanced. To me because you go to

674
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,239
such great lie to explain the Tin Woodsman and explain

675
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:08,719
the Scarecrow, and Dorothy is just she's just the back

676
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,760
of someone's head. We never get to and you know,

677
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,079
all right, I'm going to start spoiling things. Yes, I

678
00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:20,199
have to start spoiling who the Scarecrow and Tin Woodsman were?

679
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:20,599
Speaker 1: Right?

680
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 2: Uh?

681
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: Can I just talk about the movie in general just

682
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,400
a little more. It's the thing is that I was

683
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,760
very curious to read uh comments or or you know,

684
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,679
the way people who are obsessed with the with the

685
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,400
with the musical, how they reacted to it, you know

686
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,239
what I mean, Like I was curious to see because

687
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,800
it's basically based on the play the musical and I'll

688
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,440
slash the mood the book. So I was scarious to

689
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,840
read those comments. And most people said that they the

690
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,840
people who love the musical, they said that they they

691
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,239
felt that if they followed the play, the movie wouldn't

692
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,360
do well, you know what I mean, like if you

693
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,760
know page by page pretty much, and I think that's

694
00:38:03,039 --> 00:38:04,960
and they feel like that's what they did. They went

695
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,719
straight with the play and it didn't work. And I

696
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,599
feel and then there's commentary about well, you say Wicked

697
00:38:11,599 --> 00:38:15,360
part one in part two, but it's you know, people

698
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,920
defending the movie. Well, it's actually a continuation of the story. Okay,

699
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,920
that works, but if you didn't see part one, then

700
00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:23,840
part two makes no sense.

701
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:29,119
Speaker 2: A film, even a sequel film, right, should stand on

702
00:38:29,199 --> 00:38:32,639
its own as a that it tells a complete story beginning, middle,

703
00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:32,920
and an end.

704
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: And that one doesn't.

705
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:37,199
Speaker 2: It doesn't. It really doesn't. It is the next episode

706
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,760
of a television show. And I don't like even like

707
00:38:41,199 --> 00:38:43,320
you can look at say the original Lord of the

708
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,480
Rings trilogy, which was a movie that was shot three

709
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,920
movies that were all shot in one go, but each

710
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,760
of those movies tells I mean, they have a rising

711
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,639
and falling action, each one has an ending that that

712
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,079
has you anticipated.

713
00:38:56,119 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: When granted they have several books to follow, not just

714
00:38:58,960 --> 00:38:59,440
one book.

715
00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:01,519
Speaker 2: That I don't think that makes a difference in the

716
00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:05,280
fine in how that movie was constructed. My point is

717
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,760
that you can tell and even I would say the

718
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,119
original Star Wars trilogy, those are three separate films. They

719
00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:15,679
tell an overarching story, but each one ends and then

720
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,519
the next one begins, whereas this one it's just like

721
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,559
boom Let's picking up where we left off. I do

722
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:28,880
feel that, and I'm saying something that pretty much every

723
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,400
critic has said. This would have all worked so much

724
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,480
better as one film. It should have been. It would

725
00:39:33,519 --> 00:39:36,239
have been a very long film, a three hour and

726
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,519
twenty minute film maybe, but we've seen those in the

727
00:39:38,559 --> 00:39:42,480
last few years. The problem is all second acts of

728
00:39:42,559 --> 00:39:45,960
musicals are are weaker than their first acts. In almost

729
00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:50,119
every instance. That's the case. They also tend to be

730
00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:52,960
because of the nature of how these stories are constructed.

731
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,880
They also tend to be kind of depressing because everything

732
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,920
starts falling apart for the characters. And that works in

733
00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:02,840
say a three act structure or a four x structure,

734
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,519
because you're taking an audience through something and when everything

735
00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:09,239
goes bad for the characters, well, it was only an

736
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,480
hour ago when everything was going good for the characters,

737
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,880
so it doesn't feel but this it's a year later

738
00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:17,039
and everything sucks. So it is a movie where just

739
00:40:17,119 --> 00:40:21,280
everything sucks, and that's not you know, every once in

740
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,559
a while they would I think they did it once

741
00:40:23,679 --> 00:40:25,920
and I remember thinking they really should do this more

742
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,360
where they flashed back to right with them when they

743
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,000
were all students and they were in a field of

744
00:40:31,039 --> 00:40:33,079
pop and I was like, you know, they really should

745
00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:35,039
remind you of this a little bit more in the film,

746
00:40:35,039 --> 00:40:36,639
because this film is a downer.

747
00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: I you know, as someone who hasn't seen the play, musical,

748
00:40:42,639 --> 00:40:46,000
read the book, just the movies, I felt that the

749
00:40:46,039 --> 00:40:49,480
first movie was so cheerful and uplifting and up bright

750
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:52,239
and beautiful colors, you know, And I get it, that's

751
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,760
the beginning of the story and I expected this the

752
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,639
second part to be dark, but my god, this was

753
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,400
like way too somber, way too dark. The lighting everything,

754
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:03,840
it was just too much dark.

755
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,559
Speaker 2: Literally, yeah, it was such a muddy looking it.

756
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: Was just like, I mean, it was dark to look at.

757
00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:10,199
I was like, all right, can we get a can

758
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,760
we get a flashlight here? Because I can't see anything.

759
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,159
It was just very dark the whole thing with the animals.

760
00:41:18,159 --> 00:41:21,159
And I get it, you're making a social issue, you know,

761
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,280
point here, but it just felt too dark. The whole

762
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,960
thing felt too dark to me. And if you don't

763
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,719
know what happened before, if you're just watching these movies,

764
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,519
you have no idea why people are behaving the way

765
00:41:31,519 --> 00:41:34,920
they are. Because they changed, they kept changing their behavior.

766
00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:36,119
That's all the time.

767
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,119
Speaker 2: I don't mind that the story got a little dark,

768
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:45,239
and I don't mind that the story layers political, you know, stop.

769
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,000
I mean, the book did. That was the whole point

770
00:41:47,039 --> 00:41:50,199
to it. But this does get down to whether or

771
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:55,360
not I enjoy watching all this political allegory being layered

772
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,599
onto a story that was written for children, and or

773
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,960
or put more succinctly, it's not about whether I enjoy it.

774
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,239
It's whether I think it works, and I don't. I don't.

775
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,480
It's I'm not bothered by the film being too dark.

776
00:42:08,639 --> 00:42:13,760
I just didn't think it worked within all this whimsy.

777
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,960
And you're trying to talk about racism and fascism and everything,

778
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,280
and you can, you can do that, but I just

779
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,320
don't think the film handled it well. I think if

780
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,440
you are doing that, if you're doing a film about

781
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,880
fascism and racism and political allegories set in a whimsical land,

782
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:34,280
it needs a fine touch. It needs a director who

783
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,599
knows what they're doing. And I mean, maybe this sounds

784
00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:39,639
silly because it's going to be the biggest film of

785
00:42:39,639 --> 00:42:42,000
the year, but I don't think John Cheu is that director.

786
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:45,719
I don't think he's a very subtle director, and I

787
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,039
don't think he's a very thoughtful director. I think what

788
00:42:48,119 --> 00:42:51,559
he tends to go for in films is bomb best.

789
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,960
Everything's loud, or he throws everything at you. I tweeted

790
00:42:56,039 --> 00:42:58,400
on Blue Sky last night after we came back. I said,

791
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,679
I felt like I just got yelled at for two hours.

792
00:43:02,119 --> 00:43:04,800
And I don't mind that the film is loud, it's cacoffiness.

793
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,400
I remember saying this last year about the film when

794
00:43:09,039 --> 00:43:11,880
the first film with I can't remember what Jonathan Bailey's

795
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,880
big number is, where he's singing in that library and

796
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,719
he's very hot and sexy. And I complained about that

797
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,760
number then because they built this ridiculously elaborate set with

798
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,239
turning wheels and gears and grinding, and there were literally

799
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,519
like two hundred people flipping and doing all sorts of

800
00:43:26,519 --> 00:43:30,159
things in the background. And I complained about it then,

801
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,679
and I'll complain about it now. I think I know

802
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,679
I had studied a lot of musicals. Movie musicals need

803
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:42,559
a certain clarity to them because you need to direct

804
00:43:42,679 --> 00:43:45,320
the eye where to go, and you need to direct

805
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,199
the audience to the correct emotional like who's having the

806
00:43:48,199 --> 00:43:52,000
emotional response in this scene with fifty dancers and he

807
00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:55,280
doesn't do that. It's all cacfinis. There's so much going

808
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,639
on that scene with where she goes to the castle

809
00:43:59,679 --> 00:44:01,639
with all the monkeys and they all start lighting the

810
00:44:01,679 --> 00:44:05,960
fires and she just screams a song for four minutes

811
00:44:06,039 --> 00:44:10,079
while all of these shrieking monkeys are flying around, and

812
00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:13,159
there's so much going on. I remember sitting there going,

813
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,199
I don't even know what the emotion is here. Is

814
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,719
she angry? Is she sad? I can't tell. She's just screaming,

815
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,159
And there's so much that I cannot focus on.

816
00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:25,639
Speaker 1: The whole point of being a musical that you are

817
00:44:26,119 --> 00:44:28,400
singing your feelings. It's completely gone.

818
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 2: It's gone, it's gone. It's just let's scream things at

819
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,960
each other. And that seduction scene.

820
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,679
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yes, it's because a.

821
00:44:35,639 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 2: Lot of people. I don't want to be mean, but

822
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,039
I mean I did think it. I was like, all right,

823
00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:41,639
we're watching two queer people who are trying to pretend

824
00:44:41,639 --> 00:44:44,599
that they're hot for each other, and you know they're

825
00:44:44,599 --> 00:44:48,440
not queer for each other. And I mean, Jonathan Bailey

826
00:44:48,599 --> 00:44:53,280
has played sexy straight men to no problem before, so

827
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,840
I really don't think it had to do with their queerness.

828
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,440
I just think the staging of that they are screaming.

829
00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:03,679
Their faces are this part like literally a centimeter apart

830
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,840
because they're about to kiss, but they are both screaming

831
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,119
their songs at each other, and it's not sexy.

832
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,159
Speaker 1: And I find that that scene they just didn't they

833
00:45:13,199 --> 00:45:16,159
didn't know what to do because because clearly you can

834
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,960
make the argument that this is not a movie for kids.

835
00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:21,159
I get it, But at the same time, kids are

836
00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:23,840
going to see this movie, and they all know that,

837
00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:26,599
the studio knows that, everybody knows that, so they're trying

838
00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:31,360
to play this this you know double you know, meaning

839
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,159
here that they're just hugging or kissing or whatever, but

840
00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:36,320
they're not, you know. And then why they're going to

841
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,559
have sex. I mean, we can't show that because kids

842
00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:41,519
are watching this. It just it just felt very awkward.

843
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 2: The whole thing didn't show sex. I don't expected song

844
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,360
as a metaphor for sex. That's as classic a movie

845
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,920
musical move as it cats. But I just didn't think

846
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,880
the staging of that song was sexy at all. There

847
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:57,599
was nothing about it that was sexy.

848
00:45:58,039 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: And again a lot of people that point, and I

849
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,800
agree that there's no leading up to that. I mean

850
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,960
in terms of their relationship. I remember from the first movie,

851
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,119
but it came out of nowhere, like the way they

852
00:46:10,159 --> 00:46:10,960
do were just together.

853
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 2: Why don't we take a short break here and then

854
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,639
I'm going to get into that because motivations, what the

855
00:46:16,639 --> 00:46:21,039
hell were they? We'll be right back, We're back, and

856
00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:26,000
Lorenzo was talking about how that's quote unquote sex scene

857
00:46:26,039 --> 00:46:29,400
didn't make any sense. But I turned to Lorenzo at

858
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,599
one point during I can't remember which scene it was,

859
00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:34,840
and I was like, nothing anybody is doing here makes sense,

860
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:36,800
and yes, oh, I know what it was. It was

861
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,679
the scene where Fierro was captured, where Fierro pulls the

862
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,400
gun and Bubba. So we are going to get into

863
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:49,840
some spoilers here. I did not understand the motivations of

864
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,360
a single character in this film, and they changed from

865
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,320
one moment to the next. I mean, Alphabet's dancing with

866
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,760
the you know, she's she's fighting the Wizard's she's messages

867
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,840
in the sky about the wizard lies and then she's

868
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,679
dancing and singing with the Wizard, and then she's fighting

869
00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:07,559
with the Wizard again, and then she's putting the Wizard

870
00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:11,039
in a kate, Like, what are we doing here, and

871
00:47:11,079 --> 00:47:15,559
then all of these characters, like, honestly, the movie is

872
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:20,000
Ariana Grande's movie, it's Glinda's movie, and she is the

873
00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:23,039
character whose head we are inside through most of the movie,

874
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,159
whose changes in character we can understand because they spend

875
00:47:27,199 --> 00:47:31,400
time with her, and we understand mostly why she's doing

876
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,960
what she's doing. Alphabe's motivations seem to change from minute

877
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,000
to minute, and it's all about freeing the animals and

878
00:47:38,039 --> 00:47:41,320
fighting fascism, and then it becomes, well, screw that, I

879
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,880
just want vengeance for my sister, which okay, fine, they're not.

880
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: Well established enough. And then and then at some point

881
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,760
you decided to be against your sister, but then you

882
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,599
you're supporting your sister, and then you it's very confusing

883
00:47:53,679 --> 00:47:55,639
the establish Yeah.

884
00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: I do feel like they didn't they they cast an actress,

885
00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:04,159
a wheelchair bound actress in that role, which and my

886
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,239
understanding is it's not on the stage like when when

887
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,880
Alfab casts her spell, she gets out of the wheelchair

888
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,719
and walks in the movie, she floats in the air.

889
00:48:13,559 --> 00:48:15,519
That's not a complaint or anything, but I do feel

890
00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:21,039
like there was a certain restraint with nessa Rose, like

891
00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:24,880
they they didn't want to depict a differently abled person

892
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,119
as an outright villain. But she is an outright villain.

893
00:48:27,199 --> 00:48:30,400
The movie only works, the story only works if she's

894
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,760
a villain. And they were so you know, reticent, so

895
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,119
reluctant to do that with her. I was like, you know,

896
00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:39,920
if you just make her a total bitch, this story

897
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,320
would work a lot better.

898
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 1: Right, It would make more sense her decisions, especially with Bach,

899
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,960
you know, everything would make more sense. I mean, why

900
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,719
are you acting like this towards you know.

901
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,079
Speaker 2: Well, I understood that she was infatuated with him, but

902
00:48:51,159 --> 00:48:53,559
again they were like, oh, she's a sweet but she's

903
00:48:53,599 --> 00:48:56,360
you know, you know whatever, Like just make her a bitch.

904
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:02,760
That's the point. I never understood Pharaoh what he was

905
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,320
doing from minute to minute. There were entire scenes, and

906
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:06,599
I did. I turned to you at one point, I

907
00:49:06,639 --> 00:49:08,440
was like, I have no idea what he's thinking right now, Like,

908
00:49:08,679 --> 00:49:10,400
no idea what this character is thinking.

909
00:49:10,599 --> 00:49:12,599
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be like, oh, maybe he's faking it,

910
00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:15,679
maybe he's pretending that he's you know again, but again

911
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:16,800
it's not clear.

912
00:49:17,199 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: It's not that I'm confused. I understood what was going on,

913
00:49:20,599 --> 00:49:23,599
but it was not being depicted that I didn't understand

914
00:49:23,639 --> 00:49:25,920
why why I had I had to figure everything out.

915
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,880
I didn't understand why I needed so much information from

916
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,519
previous films or from what I know about this musical

917
00:49:33,679 --> 00:49:35,159
in order for the story to make sense.

918
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: A lot of people made that point that it we

919
00:49:38,039 --> 00:49:41,920
didn't have enough information enough scenes with with bach And

920
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,320
and Nessa to you know, and the same thing with

921
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,000
with with the two of them with what the name

922
00:49:48,079 --> 00:49:51,280
fe were Piarah pharoh and and then Alphabet. They didn't

923
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,800
wouldn't have enough there. In terms of same thing with.

924
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,079
Speaker 2: The Cowardly Lion, he gets a second yes, origin story

925
00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:01,320
in the first film, and now he hates Alphaba, but

926
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,719
we don't know, I mean, I guess, but that character

927
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,719
was and the digital work on that character was really bad. Animals.

928
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, Oh my god, you're right. I

929
00:50:13,199 --> 00:50:15,119
noticed that, And I forgot to mention that the animals

930
00:50:15,199 --> 00:50:16,039
all looked fake?

931
00:50:17,679 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: What else? So yeah, I didn't know what Fierro was

932
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,639
doing from moment to moment. So let's get into the

933
00:50:22,679 --> 00:50:28,719
whole twist, which is that Alphaba essentially accidentally creates the

934
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:33,559
tin Woodsman and the Scarecrow out of bach and Fierro Again.

935
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,920
I hate this. I knew it was in the story

936
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,840
I read the story, but I hate this idea where

937
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,960
we have to explain there are every character has some connections.

938
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:46,119
So he couldn't be some tin woodsman out in the

939
00:50:46,119 --> 00:50:48,880
woods who was rusting and left alone. He has to

940
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:54,760
be the Wicked Witch's sisters, you know, I agree, uh,

941
00:50:55,159 --> 00:50:57,719
lover or whatever. And same thing with Fierro. He can't

942
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,920
just be some scarecrow out in the field. He has

943
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:03,559
to be Alphaba's boyfriend and Glinda's ex boy like I agree.

944
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,719
It makes this Oz into five people. There are five

945
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:09,760
people on OZ, and nobody else matters.

946
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: I just and most of the time it's basically just

947
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,760
the two of them, which I kind of understand.

948
00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 2: Okay, and now we have to this is what I So.

949
00:51:20,199 --> 00:51:26,039
The story of Wicked for Good essentially lets everything in

950
00:51:26,039 --> 00:51:29,159
The Wizard of Oz happen off screen, but it happens

951
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,000
like it happens the way more or less the way

952
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,079
Dorothy goes off, Glinda sends Drothy off on the Yellow

953
00:51:36,079 --> 00:51:41,639
Brick Road to go find the Wizard. Why why does

954
00:51:41,679 --> 00:51:45,400
she do that? Why? At this point, like Fierra has

955
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,800
been captured and Alphab has been fighting her, And why

956
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,559
is Glinda sending this girl off to the Wizard. Why

957
00:51:53,599 --> 00:51:56,840
would she do that? There's literally no explanation for that.

958
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,639
It doesn't make any sense given the story that we've

959
00:51:59,639 --> 00:52:03,440
told We've been told about Glinda. That whole scene is

960
00:52:04,599 --> 00:52:07,800
I get it, Glinda essentially caused the death of Nssa

961
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,079
Rose because she gave them the idea to go after

962
00:52:11,159 --> 00:52:13,559
Nessa Rose. She didn't realize Matam Marble was going to

963
00:52:13,599 --> 00:52:16,960
kill her for it. But so there's Glinda standing over

964
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,800
essentially Nessa Rose's dead body, and at this point she

965
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,159
has to know that she caused that to happen, but

966
00:52:22,199 --> 00:52:25,000
she's not acting like that at all. Watch that scene.

967
00:52:25,079 --> 00:52:27,519
Is this someone who sends someone to their death? No,

968
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,519
so she sends she sends Dorothy off to the Wizard

969
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,719
for absolutely no reason, no explanation whatsoever. She already knows

970
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,800
the Wizard. Glinda knows the Wizard is a fraud. So

971
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,639
what does she think the Wizard's going to do for Dorothy?

972
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:51,800
And then why is Fierro and Bach with her? I

973
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,760
get that Bach? Well, no, I actually don't get Bach

974
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,199
hates Alphaba for turning him into the tin Woodsman, But

975
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,239
he was that nessa Rose is the one that did that,

976
00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:07,199
initiated that. But I guess he hates Alphaba. Now, okay,

977
00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:09,960
we're not really given much of an explanation or any moment,

978
00:53:10,039 --> 00:53:11,800
like he gets turned into the tin Woodsman and we

979
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,760
barely ever see him again, and then the whole thing.

980
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,199
They really wanted that Fierra revealed to be a surprise,

981
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,760
so they just kept him out of the movie until

982
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,639
the last second so we could see him in that

983
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:30,239
ridiculous makeup. Did you not think he looked ridiculous? Why

984
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,039
did Ray Boulger in nineteen thirty nine look better as

985
00:53:33,079 --> 00:53:36,360
the Scarecrow than he did Jonathan Bailey in twenty twenty five.

986
00:53:36,599 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 1: Why I didn't understand the face thing.

987
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,199
Speaker 2: I didn't understand the face. It just I didn't understand

988
00:53:41,199 --> 00:53:46,960
it at all. But again, why why why did Fierro

989
00:53:47,119 --> 00:53:52,039
go off with Darthy? Now I understand it's sort of

990
00:53:52,119 --> 00:53:55,880
explained that there was some sort of plan at the end,

991
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:00,719
but there's no point at which Alphaba and Pierarro could

992
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:06,239
have hatched that plan. Not only that, but Alphaba reacted

993
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,199
with surprise when she saw Piero at the end, so

994
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,199
as if she didn't know that Piero had been turned

995
00:54:10,199 --> 00:54:13,039
into a scarecrow. Right. None of that makes any sense

996
00:54:13,079 --> 00:54:16,239
to me. None of that actually makes any sense at all,

997
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,280
and none of it is explained in the story. So

998
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,679
it's just I'm sitting there in the last twenty minutes going,

999
00:54:21,519 --> 00:54:24,159
why is everybody The only reason everybody's acting this way

1000
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,079
is because it has to end the same way the

1001
00:54:26,079 --> 00:54:29,119
Wizard of Oz ended. But none of that actually makes

1002
00:54:29,119 --> 00:54:32,639
any sense because you decided to deconstruct these characters and

1003
00:54:32,679 --> 00:54:35,679
give them all these motivations that they didn't have in

1004
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:36,480
the Wizard of Oz.

1005
00:54:36,559 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: Well, so that's the thing. I was watching the whole thing.

1006
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,559
I was like, oh, so that's why, But that doesn't

1007
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:44,559
make sense, you know. I kept having that reaction all

1008
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:48,920
the time, like wow, the acting thing. Yes, Glinda knows

1009
00:54:49,039 --> 00:54:52,440
that it's not true that the Wicked Witch melts when

1010
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,920
she's exposed to water, but when Darthy throws the water

1011
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:57,480
on her, Glinda cries.

1012
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 2: As if the witch has been killed. Why well, why

1013
00:55:03,519 --> 00:55:07,599
why are you crying? And the story is well and apparently,

1014
00:55:07,679 --> 00:55:10,440
and that's the thing I thought the ending was that

1015
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,679
Glinda was before I saw the film, Glinda knew about

1016
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,960
right alphabet and Fierro going off at the end.

1017
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,119
Speaker 1: But no, she doesn't know, she doesn't know.

1018
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: Why does she think she's Why does she think a

1019
00:55:23,519 --> 00:55:26,920
bucket of water killed her friend? Which that's pure propaganda.

1020
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,440
The film made that clear and she knows that. So

1021
00:55:30,599 --> 00:55:33,320
why none of that makes sense?

1022
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: I think it's an awkward combination of trying to get

1023
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,880
stuff from the original movie to be in the story,

1024
00:55:41,039 --> 00:55:45,320
plus the version of the book, plus some of the play.

1025
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: All together as milange, and it falls apart.

1026
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 1: And I felt like the second movie, I felt like

1027
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,079
things were getting repeated over and over again. So many

1028
00:55:54,119 --> 00:55:55,280
things were.

1029
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: Could they stop crying every as they sing at each other?

1030
00:55:57,679 --> 00:56:01,039
Speaker 1: Every scene? Felt like didn't we just talk about this

1031
00:56:01,119 --> 00:56:01,719
before much?

1032
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,559
Speaker 2: We love each other and you're my datest friend Everard,

1033
00:56:03,559 --> 00:56:06,320
I'm gonna tearfully cry two witches from your bed. No,

1034
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:07,800
it's again and again and again.

1035
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,679
Speaker 1: I know. I know it's a musical, but at some

1036
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,280
point I was like, all right, enough songs. Can I

1037
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,320
have a little bit of a story here because I

1038
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,159
craved the songs.

1039
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 2: The songs are not great, there's no decent dancing or

1040
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,280
anything like that. I do want to talk about the

1041
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,239
production design, which, oh, Okay, God.

1042
00:56:28,119 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: Let me just finish. He had that. There was so

1043
00:56:30,159 --> 00:56:34,559
much declaration of love between those two that I was like, enough.

1044
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:36,079
Speaker 2: Enough, you two are being weird.

1045
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 1: You it, you two are being weird the whole thing.

1046
00:56:39,079 --> 00:56:41,719
We're good. I'm good, and I'm there's good in me

1047
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:43,960
from you and you from me, from me from you.

1048
00:56:44,039 --> 00:56:46,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, all right, can we just I need

1049
00:56:46,599 --> 00:56:49,079
to go home? Yeah, I need to buy it's are waiting,

1050
00:56:49,599 --> 00:56:53,440
I can wrap this up. I totally agree. And it wasn't.

1051
00:56:53,639 --> 00:56:55,639
It was shorter than any of it than the first film.

1052
00:56:55,679 --> 00:56:59,920
It's not that the film was too long, it's just

1053
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:03,639
that it it. It wasn't interesting enough to be that long,

1054
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:04,320
you know what I mean?

1055
00:57:04,519 --> 00:57:06,760
Speaker 1: Right? And two more things I want to talk about.

1056
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:10,239
The acting part is a Jeff Golden number one. I

1057
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:12,480
think he's a very charming actor. If you see him

1058
00:57:12,559 --> 00:57:15,599
on the red carpet, he's very charming. He's funny, and

1059
00:57:15,679 --> 00:57:19,360
I feel that that's all we got. I didn't I

1060
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:24,320
was expecting a better impersonation. I don't know, I just

1061
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,039
don't think. I felt I felt like I was looking

1062
00:57:27,039 --> 00:57:29,280
at the actor the whole time and not so much

1063
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,920
the character. And I felt that way in the first movie,

1064
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:34,800
and I was like, well, let me see the second movie,

1065
00:57:35,039 --> 00:57:36,400
and it confirmed.

1066
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 2: What I felt.

1067
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, and I and something else that's

1068
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:45,119
gonna piss a lot of people, but I'm gonna say

1069
00:57:45,119 --> 00:57:48,440
it anyway. I thought Michelle Yoh was absolutely.

1070
00:57:48,039 --> 00:57:49,639
Speaker 2: Horrible, Madam horrible.

1071
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,119
Speaker 1: And let me just say something. She is a great actor,

1072
00:57:53,199 --> 00:57:54,360
she has proven that.

1073
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,639
Speaker 2: But this is not her material for her.

1074
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 1: The line delivery, it was so stiff, so bad.

1075
00:58:01,239 --> 00:58:04,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just ja. They got her to sing

1076
00:58:04,199 --> 00:58:06,360
one forget the singing. It was horrible.

1077
00:58:06,679 --> 00:58:10,039
Speaker 1: I'm not even touching, but the it was just bad.

1078
00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:13,320
The whole thing was really, really, really laughable at some point,

1079
00:58:13,719 --> 00:58:15,840
and I'm like, this is horrible for Michelle you because

1080
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,039
she is a good actor. She can she can act.

1081
00:58:18,239 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 2: She shouldn't have been casting this ship. I think she

1082
00:58:20,119 --> 00:58:22,440
was cast because she looks amazing in those costumes. But

1083
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,400
that's right, right, Which there's another character that actually doesn't

1084
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,880
make sense to me, because, Okay, the Wizard actually has

1085
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,280
a witch. What does he need alpha before if he's

1086
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,519
got Madame Marble? And I know there are explanations for

1087
00:58:34,559 --> 00:58:36,679
that in the play and in the book and everything,

1088
00:58:36,719 --> 00:58:40,000
but there's no explanation in the movie. There's no explanation.

1089
00:58:40,119 --> 00:58:42,159
Why do you need alpha? But if you've got this

1090
00:58:42,199 --> 00:58:46,119
witch who can make tornadoes right right, just she can

1091
00:58:46,119 --> 00:58:48,519
wave her hands and make tornadoes, and why at the

1092
00:58:48,639 --> 00:58:52,400
end of the film is Glinda going up against her like, oh,

1093
00:58:52,639 --> 00:58:55,360
I'm okay, okay, Well she's a witch and you're not.

1094
00:58:55,719 --> 00:58:58,519
And okay, so you've got some monkeys and now you're

1095
00:58:58,599 --> 00:59:01,079
bad at like this is what I mean? Nothing about

1096
00:59:01,119 --> 00:59:05,440
that made any damn sense at all. Nobody nothing of

1097
00:59:05,599 --> 00:59:08,880
what anyone was trying to accomplish. I actually could not

1098
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,320
explain what anyone was trying to First of all, why

1099
00:59:11,519 --> 00:59:14,840
was why was the wizard so against the animals? What

1100
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:15,559
was that about?

1101
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:17,639
Speaker 1: Never, it's never clear, it's never.

1102
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:22,679
Speaker 2: Oh, and all the animals have been outlawed and speaking animals,

1103
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,360
and so I have been run in there in cages

1104
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:29,440
in the bottom of the castle or whatever. But everyone's

1105
00:59:29,519 --> 00:59:31,880
cheering for the cowardly Lion to go after the witch.

1106
00:59:32,199 --> 00:59:34,559
The cowardly Lion is standing there in the middle of

1107
00:59:34,599 --> 00:59:38,079
the Emerald City, after we've spent three hours being told

1108
00:59:38,119 --> 00:59:41,400
that animals are being brutalized and this one's getting cheered,

1109
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:46,159
Why again, you cannot fit the Wizard of Oz characters

1110
00:59:46,199 --> 00:59:49,039
into the story you've created. It does not make any sense.

1111
00:59:49,559 --> 00:59:52,360
And maybe they should have just ditched any effort to

1112
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:56,199
do the Wizard of Oz at all, just to to

1113
00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:00,920
and the you know whatever. But they had over explain

1114
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,119
every single thing. And that's what happens is when you

1115
01:00:03,159 --> 01:00:06,119
try and over explain every single thing, it starts making

1116
01:00:06,199 --> 01:00:07,519
less and less. Right.

1117
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:09,719
Speaker 1: The only thing that worked for me really really well

1118
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:11,760
with the costumes. I have to say, I was really

1119
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:16,880
impressed by the costumes. Especially Glinda's gowns are stunning.

1120
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,119
Speaker 2: I don't get that sweater that the.

1121
01:00:19,159 --> 01:00:22,039
Speaker 1: Sweater everyone makes I don't get it. Everyone makes fun

1122
01:00:22,079 --> 01:00:22,199
of this.

1123
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 2: I don't get the sweater. But yes, they cover the

1124
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,920
fierros like the military guards. Costumes were just stunning.

1125
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,079
Speaker 1: The wedding gown I thought it was perfect, because you know,

1126
01:00:32,119 --> 01:00:34,719
you were expecting this insane gown, but it was actually

1127
01:00:34,719 --> 01:00:39,639
your beautiful dress, and with the you know train and

1128
01:00:39,679 --> 01:00:42,960
all that. And I was paying attention to everything this

1129
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,239
time because I was borded everything else. The jewelry, the earrings,

1130
01:00:46,559 --> 01:00:51,159
the mil god, the jeury was perfect. Pardon me, I

1131
01:00:51,199 --> 01:00:52,840
was looking at them. I was like, this is all

1132
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:54,679
custom made, gorgeous stuff.

1133
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well that's what he's doing.

1134
01:00:57,079 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 1: It worked, worked for the character because that's the character.

1135
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 2: And Madam Marbles cost and then Jeff Globlim wore coat,

1136
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:08,880
an embroidered coat with pots all over them.

1137
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1138
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,719
Speaker 2: Just I mean it belongs in a museum.

1139
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:17,639
Speaker 1: So yeah, the costumes were great. The sets, I guess.

1140
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,519
Speaker 2: They're not sets. Mostly I hated the production design. I

1141
01:01:20,559 --> 01:01:23,920
found that obnoxious. This is going back to John Cheu

1142
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,320
not knowing when to settle down. I noticed in the

1143
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:33,960
first fifteen minutes there were four scenes with fireworks in it, Like,

1144
01:01:34,039 --> 01:01:36,079
you can't just let a scene happen. You have to

1145
01:01:36,159 --> 01:01:39,679
end it with fireworks four times in fifteen minutes all,

1146
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:42,880
and how many fireworks. There were so many scenes with

1147
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:47,360
fireworks and banners exploding and puffs of smoke exploding all

1148
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,400
over the city. I'm not against any of that, but

1149
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:55,320
there's no restraint. There's it's just bomb it. And it's

1150
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:58,440
the same thing with the the production design of what

1151
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,599
the Emerald City looks like, the buildings and everything. And

1152
01:02:01,679 --> 01:02:04,079
I know most of that was seen in Wicked, but

1153
01:02:04,119 --> 01:02:05,960
I do feel like it was a little more out

1154
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:11,519
of control in this film. I'm I'm not arguing that

1155
01:02:11,639 --> 01:02:15,880
it needed a more simplistic, minimalist production design. I'm just saying,

1156
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,440
if you're going to have every building, every single thing

1157
01:02:19,679 --> 01:02:24,880
so ridiculously over designed, maybe like calm down on the

1158
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,119
editing and the and the special effects and the fireworks

1159
01:02:28,159 --> 01:02:32,719
and let everyone see what you've done inste everything's moving

1160
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,559
so quickly, every frame is so full of information that

1161
01:02:36,599 --> 01:02:40,119
you absolutely cannot register anything anything.

1162
01:02:40,119 --> 01:02:42,719
Speaker 1: If you ask me, I don't remember a lot of

1163
01:02:42,719 --> 01:02:46,599
things because things looked like because there were so many dancers,

1164
01:02:46,719 --> 01:02:50,920
so many people on stage, or you know, in the scene.

1165
01:02:51,079 --> 01:02:53,480
It's just felt like too much. Everything felt like.

1166
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:58,079
Speaker 2: A movie musical requires no matter how exuberant the production

1167
01:02:58,199 --> 01:03:01,599
numbers get, and they should get exuberant and over the top,

1168
01:03:01,679 --> 01:03:04,639
and no matter how eye popping the production design gets,

1169
01:03:05,599 --> 01:03:09,280
it needs a certain restraint and clarity to it in

1170
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:12,480
order for the story to make sense, because otherwise it's

1171
01:03:12,599 --> 01:03:14,400
just gonna be a lot of noise. And that is

1172
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:16,800
exactly what Wicked for Good was. For me. It was

1173
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,800
a lot of noise and color, but not a lot

1174
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:21,599
of thought was put into this product.

1175
01:03:21,639 --> 01:03:24,079
Speaker 1: That was my first thought it's very loud. It's just

1176
01:03:24,199 --> 01:03:26,400
loud all the time. And yes, it's a musical, people

1177
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:28,559
are saying, and you're gonna have extras, you know, showing

1178
01:03:28,599 --> 01:03:31,199
out to dance with them, But my god, it's just

1179
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:36,559
two munch Yeah. Sometimes you need, like, you know, some downtime.

1180
01:03:37,599 --> 01:03:40,239
Speaker 2: You do, that's yeah, I mean that's how you construct

1181
01:03:40,239 --> 01:03:42,239
a film. You need to give the audience a break

1182
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:45,119
every now and then, right right, And he doesn't do that, No,

1183
01:03:45,199 --> 01:03:46,880
he does. And it doesn't give you time to think

1184
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,199
about why people are acting the way they're at. Everything

1185
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,800
just just moves from scene to scene to scene. And

1186
01:03:53,039 --> 01:03:56,559
I look, this film's gonna make, oh my god, more

1187
01:03:56,599 --> 01:03:57,679
money than I've ever seen.

1188
01:03:57,559 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: In my life.

1189
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so you know this is just me and

1190
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,599
you ranting about something that is going to be a

1191
01:04:03,639 --> 01:04:06,559
wild success anyway, And that is I'm not mad at

1192
01:04:06,559 --> 01:04:08,360
it whatever. I just didn't think it was listening.

1193
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,599
Speaker 1: They renewed all fair, they renewed all Yeah.

1194
01:04:11,639 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 2: So what do I know?

1195
01:04:12,679 --> 01:04:15,039
Speaker 1: I know nothing, people, I know nothing.

1196
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,639
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think we've beaten this one up. Yes, yes,

1197
01:04:19,039 --> 01:04:22,519
I mean go see it, of course, I mean, I mean, yeah,

1198
01:04:22,639 --> 01:04:25,599
only if you want to. Yeah, it's not a recommended film,

1199
01:04:25,639 --> 01:04:27,599
but I know that if you're a Wicked fan, you're

1200
01:04:27,599 --> 01:04:28,440
gonna want to see.

1201
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 1: And I feel like you have to see the first

1202
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:31,800
part before you see the second. There's I mean, if

1203
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:33,719
you just see the second part makes it doesn't make

1204
01:04:33,719 --> 01:04:34,320
a lot of sense.

1205
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 2: And one final thought, I do think Ariana grand it

1206
01:04:36,559 --> 01:04:39,599
is her movie. Yes, yes, And I actually would not

1207
01:04:39,639 --> 01:04:43,239
be upset if she got a nomination out of this.

1208
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:49,320
I do think the girls an actress, She's for real

1209
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:53,519
actress and she and she carries this movie more so

1210
01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:55,920
than people realize who haven't seen it.

1211
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,199
Speaker 1: I think, I think can I just forgot to mention

1212
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:01,000
that because I wanted to talk about her seeing both

1213
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,000
of them. I think the thing with with Ariana Grande

1214
01:05:04,159 --> 01:05:07,320
is that she does a fantastic job. She talks about

1215
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,960
how much she worshiped this role, this movie, or play

1216
01:05:11,079 --> 01:05:14,840
whatever her entire life. Uh, and she wanted to play

1217
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,199
this part so badly, so you can tell it's like

1218
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,880
it's like kind of like Lady Gaga, you know, preparing

1219
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:24,280
for her role for that movie. So, uh, you she

1220
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,639
worked really really hard. Unfortunately, every now and then you

1221
01:05:27,679 --> 01:05:31,159
can see that that she's trying too hard to reach

1222
01:05:31,239 --> 01:05:34,559
at a certain point, it doesn't come naturally. She has

1223
01:05:34,599 --> 01:05:37,440
an amazing voice, but she's she's not an opera singer.

1224
01:05:37,599 --> 01:05:39,960
It's not that it requires an opera singer row but

1225
01:05:40,039 --> 01:05:42,480
every now and then she tries to reach that and

1226
01:05:42,519 --> 01:05:46,960
it doesn't work. But she is incredible. The only complaint

1227
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:51,039
that I have is that I can't help but notice

1228
01:05:51,079 --> 01:05:53,920
that every now and then she sounds like Kristin Chenoua's

1229
01:05:54,679 --> 01:05:55,239
I said.

1230
01:05:55,079 --> 01:05:58,559
Speaker 2: That the first she clearly was. I mean, she is

1231
01:05:58,760 --> 01:05:59,760
modeling it, and.

1232
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 1: The people were making the point that the part was

1233
01:06:03,039 --> 01:06:06,559
written for her for Christen, you know, and and that

1234
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,199
it's hard not to mimic her her style, which I

1235
01:06:10,239 --> 01:06:12,920
kind of agree and disagree. But every now and then

1236
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:14,719
we're like, whoa, you sound just like her?

1237
01:06:15,239 --> 01:06:17,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you don't have to sound just like

1238
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,719
Kristin Chenoweth to do and to.

1239
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 1: Make the comparison, you don't get that from Cintio Revill.

1240
01:06:24,079 --> 01:06:25,599
Speaker 2: No, she's not doing a denonon Zelle.

1241
01:06:25,639 --> 01:06:30,679
Speaker 1: No, she's not. She's very herself. I am really touched

1242
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,440
by I was really touched by Cintia Rebel's performance. Overall.

1243
01:06:34,599 --> 01:06:37,880
I think she really brings it to the role, that pain,

1244
01:06:38,199 --> 01:06:41,639
that suffering. You know that her whole life as a

1245
01:06:41,719 --> 01:06:45,880
character going through so much uh so much everything, And

1246
01:06:46,119 --> 01:06:48,519
when you play that as as as a black person,

1247
01:06:48,639 --> 01:06:50,360
as a black actor, you know, it makes it up

1248
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:52,199
oh absolutely much bigger point.

1249
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 2: I agree.

1250
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,159
Speaker 1: And you cannot not see that, you know, you just

1251
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,719
see her doing a phenomenal job. So I give her

1252
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,039
a lot of credit. I think you can you feel

1253
01:07:02,079 --> 01:07:04,960
the emotion. It's the only time in the movie that

1254
01:07:05,119 --> 01:07:09,800
I get emotional is when Saint Jerry will perform perform,

1255
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,239
you know, every now and then. That's it. But yeah,

1256
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:16,960
I saw it. Yeah, don't need to see it again.

1257
01:07:17,039 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 2: Eftionally, those are our thoughts on Wicked for Good. Let

1258
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:22,719
us know yours. I know some of you kittens have

1259
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:25,519
already seen it. We will be back next week after

1260
01:07:25,599 --> 01:07:28,360
the holiday with whatever cross across our desk. Until then,

1261
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,639
have a lovely hobit holiday. If you're in America, take

1262
01:07:31,679 --> 01:07:33,079
care of yourself, love you mean it.

1263
01:07:33,159 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 1: By bye bye