Speaker 1: Hey, Ben Hansen, who are you good?
Speaker 2: How are you doing good? You know, it's it's.
Speaker 3: It's been a long time, you know. Of course we've
been in contact and many other ways. Unfortunately with our
good friend Lee Spiegel, you know, we sort of connected
back then.
Speaker 1: I still miss him.
Speaker 3: Uh. I watched that James Fox video the other day
and his picture came up at the end because James
dedicated the film to him, didn't he That's right.
Speaker 1: And you know, but it's like, uh, I still miss Lee.
Speaker 4: Was Lee was interesting because he used to call me,
uh sometimes weekly until he got married. But when I
first got married, my wife set a time limit to
talk to Lee, because that's why are you talking to
it is Lee, honey. And she's like, tell him, you
got to put the kids to bed, you know, like
you get an hour or it. He just used to
love to chat and on the.
Speaker 1: Secret four hour conversation with you. It wouldn't be unusual.
Speaker 3: And the funny thing is when he passed away, Lorraine said,
thank you guys.
Speaker 1: So I had a break, that's right.
Speaker 2: That so yeah, And they just didn't talk to us
for for quite a while.
Speaker 3: You didn't want to tell anyone that he was sick
and I know, yeah, it's unfortunately I tried to reach them. Yeah,
but anyway, that's kind of a sad note to start
off on.
Speaker 1: But anyway, it's great to have you back on again.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: And you were one of the busiest people I know
in this field.
Speaker 3: I mean, and many times that we've talked to you
just said, oh, I'm just so slammed. And do you
still find it exciting? And I mean, you know, a
lot of times when a passion goes to more like work,
it makes things a little tough.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 4: I think what people don't realize is most people I
think are working working in this It's like i'd call
it a side hobby, right, unless you're retired and you
have all the time you want and moneys, you know,
not of any consequence and you can just do that.
But I have four kids and I have like two
or three day jobs. So when you see me on
the news or things like that, that's completely voluntary.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: It's only when we're doing a TV show that I
have to put those other things aside and use that
also to pay the bills. So when I pick up
the UFO subjects and get my other work done, There's
only a certain amount of time that we can put
into that, right because the news will call you and
they'll say, hey, what do you think about the Vatican?
Speaker 2: What do they I'm like, I haven't heard about the Vatican.
Got to get up to speed. And yeah. So it
does keep me very busy, but I obviously do it
because so much is happening right now.
Speaker 4: It's happening so quickly that I am passionate about it,
and whatever my part is in it, I want to
stay in the game, you.
Speaker 1: Know, you know, I have to.
Speaker 3: Even though you said this on one of my shows
a long time ago, I used it as a SoundBite
in my opening for a number of years. But if
you would just briefly and some type of nutshell talk
about your grandfather's words at the end and how that
all came about.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, So he.
Speaker 4: Was first he was infantry, Army, marine infantry World War Two,
and then he retired in about I think fifty two.
We're just now learning that he actually started working with
the Air Force civilian Air Force a few years earlier.
Speaker 2: My dad didn't know.
Speaker 4: And at any rate, he worked at Hill Air Force
Base in Utah for I think thirty something years and
he was a didn't have a degree. He was a
very intelligent innovator though, and he became known as the
problem guy.
Speaker 2: You go to him, he'll fix it.
Speaker 4: He was very skilled with his hands and was able
to have some specialties. One of them was fixing hangar systems.
You know, we learned that he maintains the hydraulics that
they played the shell game like in you know World
War two where or actually the Cold War, where they
would they didn't want satellites to see how many aircraft
you have at a base because you can bring him
into a hangar, but then you can stack them on
top of each other, you can bring them down different levels.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Right, So they never really knew.
Speaker 4: How many had So anyways, he had a specialty and
a lot of those things.
Speaker 2: And about nineteen sixty three.
Speaker 4: He came to my dad, who was the oldest, and
told him, Hey, I've been to be part of a
special team that has to be called at a moment's notice,
and I can't tell you where I'm going.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I want to be back.
Speaker 4: And he ended up leaving in about sixty five sixty
four for these temporary duty assignments, which we know a
lot of them were at right Patterson. So long story short,
many of those we know exact dates when he was gone,
and my dad felt like it was some sort of
emergency team that he hinted at. He's like, well, something
like nuclear but different. And so when he get a
call in the middle of the night, you have to
leave the next day not reachable life phone.
Speaker 2: That caused some problems with my.
Speaker 4: Dad because my grandma was dying at the time, and
so all this kind of my dad held in, kind
of resented that my grandpa was my grandpa.
Speaker 2: He wasn't around, and so he had cancer.
Speaker 4: Nineteen ninety six, he passed, and as he progressed through
the chemo and everything, they started watching TV shows together,
like Unsolved Mysteries, and he would sit back and he'd
watch my dad and we were really obviously into the subject.
Speaker 2: Say, Dad, you were there, you were there, right Patterson?
You know, did you ever hear anything about this?
Speaker 4: And usually just kind of chuckle, you know, and just
kind of change the subject. But he started saying like, hmm,
that's interesting. It was kind of his way we think
of telling us, And then other parts he'd say, this is.
Speaker 2: Ridiculous, that's crazy. I knew Philip Corso and he was there.
What you knew this guy? So there he is, end
of his life.
Speaker 4: On his deathbed, and my dad had been asking him forever,
what does this mean?
Speaker 2: Dad?
Speaker 4: Like Ben and I really want to know. And at
one point before he went to the hospital, he got
up there in the gym and he said, I think
it's time we leave because they're having a great time.
And he got very stern, and they don't talk about
it again until he's on his deathbed, and without prompting,
he was going in and out of lucidity, and he
reached over he squosed my dad's hand and suddenly his
eyes were open. He's talking clearly, and he said, son,
I know what you've been asking me. And he said,
you need to know that we're not alone, and don't
be afraid. Take care of your mother.
Speaker 2: Wow. And then he passed.
Speaker 4: And my dad is certain he wasn't talking about the afterlife.
He wasn't saying, hey, there's life after because he already
believed that he had a near death experience in the war.
So this was about whoever they are. And I think
I keep telling people he never told us what he knew,
but it seems as if he was in a position
to know, because that would be the most horrible joke
to pull on your son, right before you die.
Speaker 2: I know something you don't know? Yeah bye? You know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was trying to let him know by keeping
his oath, he knew enough of something right that there
was more to it and don't be surprised.
Speaker 1: And that's something.
Speaker 3: And you know, the question, maybe I bring it up
too much, but I often think that whatever our government
does know is not the full picture, and therefore, how
could they protect us from something they don't know enough about?
And as you know, you know, just by what's progressing.
It's the last time we talked, which has been quite
a bit of things have happened. But you know, where's
the Air Force.
Speaker 1: On all this stuff?
Speaker 3: You know, you know, you think the air Force is
protecting our skies and the Navy's been I think the
Navy's done an excellent job, you know, with the reporting
and all that.
Speaker 1: But you just it's it's kind of weird to see
the air Force.
Speaker 2: It's odd that they really haven't been called to the carpet.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, like we've seen the others and they
should be probably the lead agency, you would think lead
department and all of this because of the history with
blue Book and right Patterson.
Speaker 2: And yet I've.
Speaker 4: Been told, I mean behind the scenes, that there are
videos that exist.
Speaker 2: We've heard represent Burchett talk about the same thing. There's
videos that.
Speaker 4: Exist that are air force videos, right, of things flying
around r F twenty two's and stuff that make it
look like child's play, right, And it doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 2: But you're right.
Speaker 4: I think that the people who are the spokespeople, right,
the prs, those that come forward, I think it's possible
they very well could be telling the truth because why
would you even read them in on something if they
then had to keep a secret, they might slip up
on right. Right, So instead of starting to call people
liars and you're covering up, like, let's just step back
and saying, maybe that is the truth to what they know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, compartmentalized right, Yeah, type of situation.
Speaker 3: And you know what I mean, that's I spoke with
ab at the Movefine event last year. I sat for
hours and spoke to a retired FBI agent. I know
you were in the FBI at one time, and he
was saying, you know, the problem with the problem with
nine to eleven was with the stove piping, all the
compartmentalizing and nobody knowing the whole picture. And I imagine
that would basically be the same, except with not such urgency,
you know, of the information.
Speaker 2: It's a it's a disease, to be honest.
Speaker 4: Take a look at just what happened with the the
It wasn't obviously in New Jersey alone, but yeah, the
drone incursions, oh, I know right, still ongoing, by the way,
and nobody's talking about it.
Speaker 2: No, it's faded from you for now.
Speaker 4: So what happens again in mass But the thing that
when you have other agencies coming out and publicly saying
help us, do you know what is or we've had
to shut down an air base, several air bases because
of this, We've had to move assets.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have.
Speaker 4: To ask yourself if it's ours very minimal. We have
a big communications problem in the in the IC, absolutely right.
If they're not talking to each other and they don't
know what the other hand's doing, that's a big problem, right,
And that's what happened before nine to eleven.
Speaker 2: They weren't talking to each other.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And you know, what I mean the
ahead of time.
Speaker 3: I know, you know this that the FAA said they
didn't know what was going on, and then it comes out,
Oh yeah, the FAA announced that you know, they had worded.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was acknowledged that these were these were authorized
flights for research and among other things, and other things.
Speaker 3: Incursions incursions included. Yeah, which is absolutely crazy. So one
of the things that I see happen it must kind
of irritate you because you have control over it is.
And I know I've heard them say when they announce you,
like on News Nation or maybe not News Nation but
some other channel or something, they'll say UFO expert Ben
hands It and UFO expert Nick Popen and it's like, no,
don't say that.
Speaker 1: And I know you don't want to say that, because
no one's a UFO expert.
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, you could be.
Speaker 4: A historian, you could know a lot about the history
of it, but an expert would be an expert mechanic,
maybe someone who can fix things.
Speaker 2: Yeah we can't fix this right now, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And.
Speaker 4: So far there's no accredited I know of degrees that
you can get in you apology, So maybe that would
make you an expert in the knowledge of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, but.
Speaker 2: It's not you could say someone's an expert investigator.
Speaker 1: Yeah right.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it is kind of frustrating.
Speaker 4: Because these labels that the news or others will throw
on you, and then people expect you to have the
answers and we're humble and we are being truthful. Yeah,
it's like the more you learn, it feels like sometimes
the less you really know what's going on.
Speaker 3: It's I think so I say that as a joke,
you know, I mean, hare, I am six hundred and
sixty some odd episodes in and I don't know any
more than I did.
Speaker 1: But I love the puzzle. That's why I stay with it,
you know.
Speaker 3: And you know, it kind of baffles me that, you know,
mainstream media and not really you know, I mean people
like news nations, you know, I mean they at least
take a look at it all the time there and
kudos to them, and I know their viewership went way
up because of that, and so it underserved segment.
Speaker 4: It's an underserved segment. Yes, they need mainstream to look
at that. Yeah, we don't want to be on the fringe.
We don't want to be only looking at entertainment shows. Yeah,
we need the media to cover the UFO hearings, not
just up on Capitol Hill, but the whistleblowers. We need
that information to be able to decide for ourselves.
Speaker 2: Is this bunk? Is this a hoaxer? Is there a disinformation?
Speaker 4: Or can we trust this guy who says that he
had access and no one's reporting on it?
Speaker 1: It's right.
Speaker 3: No, I don't remember for sure, but I think I
saw you interviewed about the supposed Las Vegas giant aliens.
Speaker 2: Yes, so there's some people.
Speaker 1: I get a lot of email from people.
Speaker 3: There's some people that email me and they say, this
is there's really something to this, don't ignore it.
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: Uh what is your.
Speaker 4: Are you talking about the backyard aliens or the giant one,
because I'm thinking.
Speaker 2: Of the Miami one, the mall when you say there.
Speaker 3: Was one here, but I think there was it was tall,
the ones in Last Vegas. The backyard, Yes, the backyard aliens.
Speaker 4: So when that first broke, we did some analysis on
the videos and stuff that came out, and then we
revisited it and I had a local guy, So one
of the guys on my team was former Las Vegas
Metro and he went tried to contact the family, went
by the house and gathered information and stuff. And where
do I stand on that?
Speaker 2: I don't. I'm not.
Speaker 4: Insinuating that the family had done any type of hoax.
They seemed genuine from the people I know that talk
to them, seemed very genuine.
Speaker 2: I think they were generally scared.
Speaker 4: I'm also not saying that they completely blew things out
of proportion, but knowing what we know about witnesses, you
had two things going on. You did have, I think
pretty well established, my opinion, a meteor that lit up
the sky.
Speaker 2: It was caught on multiple cameras.
Speaker 4: If you're an actual sonic boom right in someone's backyard
cam The organizations that track these things, you know, feel
pretty confident they know where it eventually kind of the
area went down.
Speaker 2: You don't always find them, so the skeptics are well
or skeptics.
Speaker 4: But those conspiracy theorists were like, well, you never found one.
Speaker 2: We often don't find these things going down.
Speaker 1: It's like a needle at it.
Speaker 4: And did it completely dissolve once you got we don't know,
but you had that happen, and coincidentally, they get this
call right, I purpose I'm going to say, I if
I had to put money on it, I bet you
none of that came down in their backyard.
Speaker 2: I bet you that there was a lot of commotion.
It probably lit up the sky where they were. Maybe
they heard the sonic boom. There was some confusion. They
go outside.
Speaker 4: That's where it gets fuzzy because they claimed that these
things that one was sitting in their back home trailer.
Speaker 2: There was a hey in the backyard. They saw faces.
Speaker 4: So they take their cameras and this is where I
have to say, if that's all we have, you then
have the second story revisited. They now are saying that
maybe it wasn't alien, it was maybe more paranormal.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they had this kind of slant on it.
Speaker 4: Maybe it was interdimensional, that it could have been some
sort of like more of a haunting sort of thing.
Speaker 2: So I don't know.
Speaker 4: The danger though, is when then people take the one video,
like we've been accused of relying on the smoking gun video.
Speaker 2: But the others who want to believe so.
Speaker 4: Badly risk their reputations as experts to come in and
draw lines around amorphous pixels. Right, And that's I was
on NewsNation with that as well, because we have an
animator who is very good and he's on our team
who builds animations in three D modeling, and he showed
how the lighting from the flashlight that these guys going
into the fence easily explains.
Speaker 2: How that kind of shadow appears behind the fence.
Speaker 4: So you just have to ask yourself, is it more
likely there was an eight foot alien hiding behind the
fence and as they go through it suddenly disappears, or
is it likely that this is shadows right right?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Now, I know you know your interest at least what
you've been involved in and some of the shows that
you're on actually does When you mentioned the word hunting,
I thought, oh, yeah, you know, you've done some work
when it comes to what people think as poltergeist er
things like that. But the question I have and all that,
do you think there's any relationship between UFOs and possible hauntings?
Speaker 1: And I remember you probably knew of Paul Eno.
Speaker 3: Did you, I don't know, he's on the radio for
many years on this topic in Rhode Island, but he
thought they were all related, and he thought they were
all inter dimensional. I mean, you know, it's an interesting theory,
but I'm just asking you, do you think they're related
in any type of way.
Speaker 4: I think we have to be open to that. People
are kind of always looking for the unified theory. Yeah right,
So take for example, Bigfoot, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I have talked to so many people that I feel
are very credible, who believe they've seen this face to face, unmistakable.
You could be thirty feet and say that this is
not a guy in a suit, yeah right, And I
have to say there's something to it. But for me,
you're also going to be hard to convince me that
in some of these locations, even deserts and places like that,
that he's undiscovered, That some hunter just hasn't shot one, right,
that it's just a you know, bipedal, you know, hominid
that is live for all these millennia. I think it's
more likely, as crazy as it is, that sometimes they're
there and sometimes they're not. So I'm open to the
possibility of intermensionalty between that.
Speaker 2: If you want to throw the paranormal.
Speaker 4: Into it with spirits, there's got to be another realm there,
so why not extraterrestrial? I just I think people make
too many conclusions what we should basically still be sitting
back on the bleachers, and like, let's look at the
whole field, like we don't really know what's going on.
Speaker 2: It could come from there.
Speaker 4: We could have travelers actually in structured craft nuts and
bolts coming from far away using another physics, say another
but when we don't understand right to travel through whatever
bending space and time, quantum physics or and they could.
Speaker 3: Be here, yes, right, so it could overlap. Right, So
a lot has happened. I can't remember. I think it's
been three or four years since you've been on the show.
I've had so I think. So the way time is flying,
a lot's happened in that time.
Speaker 1: And how do you think things are going overall?
Speaker 3: Do you feel like you know you've been at this
a lot longer than I I've been doing the show
since twenty eleven, and I get real excited about some
things and then like that, it's like the back and forth,
two steps forward, one back type of situation.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like the needle is moving at this point?
Speaker 2: I do?
Speaker 4: I do, And And you know people might hate me
for this because the book I'm trying to write, I'd
say it's sort of a cautionary tale, and I don't
want people to misunderstand me, because I'm all for it
just like everyone else.
Speaker 2: I want disclosure right.
Speaker 4: But I don't have an agenda to tell people they
they need to release it all right now or whatever,
because what I've researched is it needs to be done right.
Speaker 2: We only get one one shot at this, So.
Speaker 4: I personally don't think there's a formulized, structured plan within
the government because no offense government.
Speaker 2: They know that.
Speaker 4: They mess up big things that just look at COVID, right.
So there's a lot of people scrambling. I've heard there's
a couple of think tank groups who, if they're in
the know, they're trying to figure out how to do this.
Speaker 2: I would say, I believe we live.
Speaker 4: In the most wonderful country in the world that has
our best interests primarily in mind. And with that kind
of I guess faith that most people are trying to
do the right thing. If they're in you know, possession
of this knowledge that it's pretty much like they know
it's going to come out at some point without them
doing anything.
Speaker 2: M hm.
Speaker 4: So how do we do it and having some control
over it so that we don't have people keep using
the term catastrophic disclosure.
Speaker 2: I think it's much more nuance than that.
Speaker 4: And my master's was an emergency disaster management, So I'm
a professional crisis manager and trying to let the world know, like, look,
we've got to look at a few things, help the
government help themselves.
Speaker 2: Who can do this right?
Speaker 4: I don't know if that makes sense, So I'm not
pushing for rip off the band aid. I'm also not
pushing for a drip over the next twenty five years.
There's got to be a happy medium where we can
help most people assimilate.
Speaker 2: To what's going to come out.
Speaker 3: Right, And when it comes to national security, I can
understand why they have to, you know, not give the
full picture in some things, because this type of knowledge
would be very powerful, for one if and it's also
could be used to make a power play with adversaries
in some type of way, you know, yes, or could
be used against us in the same way from another country.
That being said, you know, it's almost like egocentric or
something like, it's always about the United States. But I'm
wondering what you think about if other countries had about
the same knowledge we do.
Speaker 1: Do we share with other countries. What do you what
do you a extent?
Speaker 4: I know, like after the Cold War there were there's
some back channels probably between let's say Russia and the
United States comparing notes.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: Probably even with China.
Speaker 4: We're probably kind of talking with them about what what
do you think is we're as humanity? That's one thing
that is President Reagan always said, imagine if there's a
threat from out there, Yeah, that could be one unifying
factor for us, all right, like how do we deal
with this problem or this opportunity.
Speaker 2: So I do think there's some talk going on.
Speaker 4: I don't know if there is a an accord, you know,
where it's like who's going to make the announcement? But
I know the US has their hand just about everywhere.
Speaker 1: I know. They show up.
Speaker 3: You know, you talk with someone like James Fox about
the Vargina incident in Brazil and they showed up there,
and you hear it all the time, and they show
up quickly.
Speaker 4: And it seems like they defer to the US and
just like, well, whether it's aid that we're providing their country,
we threatened to do something else. But they don't seem
to be much of a fight if we're collecting this
from them as well.
Speaker 2: They know that kind of we are the.
Speaker 4: Center of collection, you know, So it's hard to say,
you know, if one of these countries might go roguean
just say forget it.
Speaker 2: We're going to make the announcement. Yes, right, And that
I think is it would be a big fear that
would be I would think. No.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you ever followed any part of
There's only been two interviews, three total, and I was
lucky enough to do two of them with a gentleman
named Jonathan Wygant. He had a carew incident in nineteen
ninety seven. I do so, yeah, But I mean the
thing about that is, you know, he shows up, he
climbs up this ledge, he sees the craft wedged into
the rock with fluid coming out, changing colors and bizarre
story and then an arm hanging out like a bluish
arm hanging out and feeling like he's getting a telepathy,
like he thinks the thing is dying. And then all
of a sudden, these guys and Mike Carrera talks about
a very similar thing. You know later that these guys
show up in black fatigues with American weapons, and Jonathan
claims that his conclusion, he's Jonathan whoever anyone thinks about
Jonathan's He's highly intelligent and I know that because hours
long in conversations with him. He thinks they were from
the Department of Energy, and I wanted to get your opinion.
What would you think about that? He said they had
American weapons, they were American And.
Speaker 4: I can't remember it's his case or one of the
others where they suspected that these were private aerospace. They're
obviously former operators, you know, with different units that then
go work for private aerospace because of the deal they
have where it's not their first rodeo and the precision
they come in and do that to take control over it,
and then you're also siloed away from the the foyer,
the oversight and everything, right yeah, yeah, So I don't
know having it within the DOE. They're they're very expert
at taking control of sensitive materials and handling it whenever
they transport a warhead. Right, So that makes sense, But
if you're trying to keep it out of the purview
of the official structure, you would it makes sense also
to have a third party do it.
Speaker 3: Now, speaking of that, you know, we had come close
to the Schumer Rounds Bill where there was like eminent
domain if there was any you know, into private entities
and they would be fined if they didn't reply and
all that stuff.
Speaker 1: And then you know, there's a lot of money and.
Speaker 3: Power in these corporations and things changed quickly when it
comes to any type of threat like that.
Speaker 1: But do you think that it was a step.
Speaker 3: Too far of the eminent domain, like we need this
material from you.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you know the backstory of that, right.
Speaker 4: So when I was talking to Travis Taylor and he
was presenting, oh, Jay Stratton was actually presenting as well,
he kind of filled in and he said, look, I
personally didn't ask Brandon Feugel about it, but the three
of them were kind of the push supposedly to not
support the Schumer bill because of the imminent domain part,
where if you have a place like Skinwalk Ranch and
you find something on it, they're worried that that material
or craft or whatever would then become the property of
the government. I think they were fully in favor of
everything else, but they may have been a large part
of the lobbying and the impetus to get them to
end that then of course you have reports reresentatives who
are in places like Ohio. You know, yeah, that we're
against it because of the aerospace connections. Yes, that's the
other I wouldn't call it a conspiracy, but if they
had skin in the game, yeah.
Speaker 2: And they're kind of telling them.
Speaker 4: Hey, look like, if we did have something, let's say
we did have materials, we don't want the government just
to come in and take control over it. So who knows.
It seems like a no brainer. Yeah, you know that
you would, you would put that in it would get passed.
But if they got rid of it, would it have passed?
Maybe they should try it, and so what happens.
Speaker 3: I understand it might be tried again, so hopefully, Well,
I know we both have something going on, and this
is kind of a short end of view, but I
feel like I could talk to you for another few hours, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. Sorry I cut it short. I
was sorry lecturing here a little bit later at the conference.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so, thanks so much. It's been a pleasure
and hope to have you back again.
Speaker 2: Thanks Martin. Great to see you.