WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.080 So is orthopos considered a derogatory term. You and Sam 2 00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:07.879 have your situation. What was your impression of the debate 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:10.640 you had with him as a debate partner on valutainment? 4 00:00:11.199 --> 00:00:14.560 And then when do you think that devolved to? What 5 00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:16.839 ended up evolving to? Which will get into if. 6 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.559 We don't make judgments about individuals, and like I don't 7 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:22.960 know your destiny, I don't know the work of God's 8 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:25.120 spirit in your heart. I do believe that like the 9 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:27.120 thief on the cross, and I tried to bring some 10 00:00:27.399 --> 00:00:31.160 philosophical internal critiques to the table, and I think it 11 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:32.759 was a blowout. If you go to the pressure of 12 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:36.039 a channel, you can see forty thousand ish comments. 13 00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:38.880 Ninety eight percent is un lost. 14 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:40.920 Some of the folks that I see that are coming 15 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:44.600 towards Eastern Orthodox seem to have a crippling fear and 16 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:46.479 anxiety around their own salvation. 17 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:49.759 The argument that you're making violates the very thing that 18 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:52.000 you just said would relativize the positions. 19 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:54.200 The argument that I'm making right now, Your. 20 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:56.799 Argument is no different than anyone else's argument you're citing. 21 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:59.320 You're saying I have this position, they have that position. 22 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:01.560 You have your position. Yeah, of course, but that has 23 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:01.920 nothing to. 24 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:06.480 Do with it. Jay's in his stunner shades. 25 00:01:06.879 --> 00:01:09.280 I'm going full Jim Jones because I thought I thought 26 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:10.719 we were going to the Madi, so I was going 27 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:11.680 to do that cult vibe. 28 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.200 I better talk the rest of this in the or 29 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:14.799 show voice. 30 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:18.920 Cult lads will also have like a booger whistle, if 31 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:20.040 you know, it's like, oh show, He's like. 32 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:27.920 Okay, so so so is ortho bros considered a derogatory 33 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:29.599 term the only time. The first time I heard it 34 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:33.719 was at Jonathan Pago's conference last year, the first one 35 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:36.079 he did, and so I was like, that's interesting because 36 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:40.920 it because it it articulated for my vantage point a group. 37 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:43.799 There's I have two very polar opposite experience with Preist 38 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:47.879 and Orthodox. Some of them are the sweetest, kindest, friendliest 39 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:50.920 folks I've ever met, and I would say, I would say, 40 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:53.519 meeting you in person is like that, like you're very kind. 41 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:55.359 I think we had a great time hanging out. And 42 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:58.239 then there's like the online aspect of it and what 43 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:01.159 they remind me of and I don't want to hypergeneralize, 44 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:05.280 but it reminded me of the young, Restless and reform movement. Yeah, 45 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:07.560 that was like we would put them in the cage 46 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:09.879 stage like you're just like you just became a Calvinist, Like, 47 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:11.439 let's just put you in a cage so you don't 48 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:13.360 hurt anybody. And it's like it's one of those two. So, 49 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:17.520 like every person I've met, whether it's Father Josiah, whether 50 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:19.960 it's Jonathan Pago, whether it's Neil from der Poor Robbins, 51 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:23.000 whether it's even Father Harris, who who's a I would 52 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:25.479 I don't know if it's appropriate, say a bit more radical. 53 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:27.560 He seems a bit more like dogmatic in some of 54 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:33.520 his positions are totally different than some of the community 55 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:36.560 and the chatter online, right like even in you saying, hey, 56 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:38.840 you're coming on my podcast and people were like, better 57 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:41.719 better tell him, blah blah blah, you know, and I'm like, oh, 58 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:43.520 like what the contrast? 59 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:45.159 Right? Yeah? 60 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:49.840 Nothing? Is it really a song for the anathemist? Okay, 61 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:53.479 we'll get to the anatherists. So anyway, derogatory term. Are 62 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:55.560 you kind of coined and viewed as the guy who 63 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:57.560 kind of built this Ortho Rose community? 64 00:02:58.120 --> 00:02:59.759 Uh? Or is it? Was it already there and you 65 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:01.159 just of spoke to it. 66 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:03.159 It was a joke that fothered again and nice made 67 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.520 and then for whatever reason, I think, then people started saying, oh, 68 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:08.719 I'm an Ortho bro, and then the people who wrote 69 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:12.000 hit pieces used it as a derogatory term, so so 70 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:14.280 initially as a joke, and then they and then yeah, 71 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:17.759 and then but I would say, like, yeah, I think 72 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:22.000 you've got a full spectrum of like people who aren't 73 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:25.080 Orthodox who just put up profiles. I mean I've even 74 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:28.879 caught people who we know are not Orthodox creating profiles 75 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:31.879 to create nonsense that happens. 76 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.120 I will say, your guys' cross is definitely the coolest 77 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:36.199 esthetic cross. 78 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:38.199 I mean, anybody can create a Twitter profile and say 79 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:40.479 I'm Orthodox. By the way, I'm ready to go kill people, right, 80 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:42.960 and I'm just like, I haven't seen that sort of stuff. 81 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:49.159 There was a dude who do that. Yeah, anyway, I 82 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:52.080 also think, like you said, if you know, when you're 83 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:55.000 like eighteen to twenty five, you're really searching and you're 84 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:57.120 very idealistic, you're very zealous. 85 00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:58.759 I was that way when I was in my twenties. 86 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:01.960 I was a calvalc should have been caged Calvinists right 87 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:02.360 when you. 88 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:05.599 Were Calvinists before the young, restless reform. Yes, right, yeah, 89 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:06.639 it was a couple of years before that. I'm just 90 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:08.360 saying that I have Do you remember that era though, 91 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.319 like as you were I guess Catholic or wherever you 92 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.840 were at. Do you remember how like scorching hot like 93 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:14.719 the John Piper. 94 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:16.959 Yeah, I was really into both of those. 95 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:20.519 Okay, Yeah, but what I'm saying, like twenty not twenty 96 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:23.199 two thousand and six to two thousand and yeah, ten 97 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:24.639 eleven is like Calvinism. 98 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:28.480 Well I moved past those guys before that time, but 99 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:31.319 I was really into John Piper and Paul Washer back 100 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:32.920 in the late nineties and early two thousands. 101 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:34.160 They made me Calvinist. 102 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.120 You were early on that, Okay, Okay, So anyway, Ortho bros. 103 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:38.959 Yeah, I mean it's I think. 104 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:40.879 You're gonna have a lot of young people searching who 105 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:45.360 are zealous and who immediately want to start debating. And 106 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:48.079 this is something that FDAFO again and Nice has tried 107 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:51.079 to like warn about, and in fact, he does an 108 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:54.959 Orthodox conference and the last two conferences he's done in 109 00:04:55.079 --> 00:05:00.319 Montana were geared towards trying to calm dudes down. And 110 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:02.920 because people don't understand that, like because you see me 111 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:06.759 or anybody else doing a debate, like they think, oh, 112 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:09.319 I got to go debate, Like the orthodoxy is about debating, 113 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.800 not necessarily right, Like you have to go through the 114 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:15.399 process of like changing. It has to change you, right, 115 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.000 And I'm not saying it's perfectly changed me. But not 116 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:21.279 everybody has the skill set or the call to to 117 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.279 do debates. It takes a certain temperament and sometimes I 118 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:27.839 lose my temper If you do this for twenty years 119 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.240 plus I've done debates since I was I don't know, 120 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:34.279 twenty five years, you're going to have times where you 121 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:36.480 lose your temper and it's going to be hard. So 122 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:38.439 it's not for everybody. But I think a lot of 123 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:40.600 young people, you know, they just sort of assume that 124 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:45.160 I got to do what he's doing, and that's not 125 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:48.040 necessarily the case. And then I think you've got people 126 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:50.639 who are serious and who do convert. And I think 127 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:52.800 there's also a contingent of people who are just not 128 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.319 happy with the idea of debating at all. They think 129 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:59.360 that debate is bad. If you debate, it's bad, and 130 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:02.480 so they'll just sort of lump everybody who debates into 131 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:03.680 a category. 132 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.160 Of bad people. Right. That's not fair either. No, I 133 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:08.079 mean Paul goes out and debates. 134 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.439 You know, so yeah, Act seven seen, Yeah, Paul Nathan's 135 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:13.879 one of my favorite chapters. So would you say the 136 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:16.240 current you've talked about losing your temper is that something 137 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:18.079 you go to confession for or is that just something 138 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:18.560 you personally? 139 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:18.839 Yeah? 140 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.439 No, I mean I've had to confess that probably ten times, 141 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.519 ten times in yeah, ten years or seven years years. 142 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:28.600 Would you say the general debate culture online is a 143 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.759 net positive or a net negative? Because I get I 144 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:32.959 get a lot of this asked in our Patreon community 145 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:34.439 of like, hey, what do you think of this? And 146 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:36.759 we'll get to the Sam Chamoun and all that. Yeah, crazy, 147 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.120 Like I think that's way out there, right, But net positive? 148 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:44.079 What do you make of just an overall debate scene. 149 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:50.920 I would guess that from my perspective, and like when 150 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:52.879 we go to our live events, and I would say 151 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:56.000 in the last five to seven years, we've probably met 152 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:58.800 a few thousand people in person, just from traveling coast 153 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.079 to coast many times and going to as churches and whatnot. 154 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:05.879 I would say it's overall in that positive because we've 155 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:09.199 met so many people who said I came out of atheism. 156 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:11.279 I came out of Islam, I came out of you know, 157 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:12.279 all these things. 158 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.800 To Christ because of a debate, and you're seeing these 159 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:19.160 people in church. Now, yeah, that's that's I would say, 160 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:20.519 that's good. I mean, one of the things that I 161 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:22.720 do appreciate about Orthodoxy is that there seems to be 162 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:25.480 an emphasis on the practice of the faith, right, which 163 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:28.079 I think faith should be something that would work out, right, 164 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:29.879 we work out what God has worked in and so 165 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.439 I do appreciate that, And that's my conversations with Jonathan 166 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.639 and Neil are always like, yeah, there's there's an emphasis 167 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:36.199 on practice. 168 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:40.120 It's not just a proposition online. It can just be online. 169 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:42.279 It can't just be an agreement to said facts, because 170 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:44.959 then that's just gnosticism, you know, it's just knowledge and information. 171 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:48.160 And so I think that's that's cool. So you say 172 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.720 it's a it positive. Now can I add one point 173 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:52.920 to that. The other thing too, is like I come 174 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:56.879 out of academic philosophy. So when I was in college, 175 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:01.000 like you're expected to debate. I think maybe a lot 176 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.680 of universities have moved away from this because but like 177 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:05.560 back in the two thousands, when I was doing undergrad 178 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:06.800 like we had debate clubs. 179 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:07.439 Yep. 180 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:10.000 And when I was a sophomore, I did a public 181 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.120 debate with one of our professors, like it was just 182 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:18.720 sophomore college college. Wow, I debated my philosophy science professor's atheists. Well, 183 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:21.360 I did TAG and I think he lost. So, I mean, 184 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:23.879 I don't think any atheists who doesn't know TAG right 185 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:25.000 is going to do very. 186 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:26.439 Well against the presubsisitional argument. 187 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:30.319 But so I'm just saying, I come out of the 188 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:35.039 milieu of it's expected that you debate if you're a 189 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.240 philosophy student. And I mean I think in my in 190 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.960 my university, it was one of our like you know, 191 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:44.080 they have like those corny tag lines like achieving excellence, 192 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:47.600 analyzing ideas. You know, we're going to produce the perfect 193 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:50.360 student in this person who can critically think. Well, I 194 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:53.360 come out of the athos of critically thinking and the 195 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:57.000 expectation of you got to defend your ideas. That's what 196 00:08:57.039 --> 00:08:59.879 academic of it was about. For example, even still, if 197 00:08:59.919 --> 00:09:02.200 you do a master's thesis or a PhD, you have 198 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:06.320 to defend your thesis. That's a degree of debating and apologetic. 199 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:10.360 So you know, when Socrates goes out in the apology. 200 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:15.720 He's doing an apologia. He's questioning people's paradigms and assumptions. 201 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.879 That's the essence of philosophy, even back to Plato and Socrates. 202 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:22.559 So that's also I think an element of this that 203 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:24.399 I think a lot of people are not I don't 204 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:25.600 mean this in an arrogant way, but a lot of 205 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:28.639 people are not educated about what philosophy is and what 206 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:31.200 it is to question paradigms and to critically think, and 207 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:34.960 so they just assume that that's arguing. You just want 208 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:37.919 to argue. A debate is not arguing, and that's why 209 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.559 we do formal and informal debates. So I let people 210 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:44.639 call in, ask whatever questions they want, have what are 211 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:47.240 kind of informal debate they want. But I also do 212 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:53.440 formal academic Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. I'm with you. 213 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:53.840 I think. 214 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:56.679 I mean, one of my favorite classes that I've taken 215 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.960 was a logic and reasoning class. Yeah, you know, philosoph 216 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.480 and philosophy or religion and how do you come to 217 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:05.720 what your systemology is, like, how do you come to 218 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:07.399 conclusions of truth? I think that stuff is good and 219 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:10.279 I think it's good for us to critically think about 220 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:12.559 these things and how do we come to these conclusions? 221 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:12.759 You know? 222 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:15.600 So I think that's a listening to your stuff. It 223 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:19.639 seems like there's always you're even in your debates that 224 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:24.120 are informal, you're still reminding people and infusing people of 225 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:27.679 those elements of philosophy, which I think is helpful. You 226 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:32.159 are presuppositional in your apologetics. Is there a reason why 227 00:10:32.759 --> 00:10:36.919 or do you just not like the classical apologetics approach? 228 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:39.120 Or is it because you're so connected to philosophy and 229 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:43.879 logic and reason that you don't use the classical apologetics lane, 230 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:46.120 or so just that's just not your will. 231 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.600 I just think that they're not the best arguments. 232 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:52.440 So I do agree with Vantilhum made a really good 233 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:55.879 argument that you could take all the classical arguments and 234 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:58.120 make a transtal version of those. So you can make 235 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:02.480 a transfial argument for telos tell us, you can make 236 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:06.240 a transfill argument for causation or cosmology, the cosmological argument. 237 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:10.480 So I just think it's a superior argument. Also, resurrection, 238 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:13.799 could you for the classical resurrection? The resurrection happened because 239 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:15.960 the New Testament is reliable. New Testament's reliable, you know, 240 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:16.519 like that? 241 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:19.240 I would do. Yeah, I would actually argue a transitional 242 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:19.960 version of that too. 243 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:24.080 Okay, Yeah, I'll be honest, Like, I wasn't the biggest 244 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:27.039 presuppositional guy because I would always hear like, kind of 245 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:30.960 fundamentalists type Christians use it, And then I started hearing 246 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.120 you and Andrew use it, and I was like, and 247 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.799 then Jordan Peterson is very much so he's pretty close 248 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:38.360 to that. Yeah, presupposent, And I'm like, Okay, I appreciate 249 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:39.720 it more here than you guys use it. Well. 250 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.759 One thing I would say too, is like presupposition is 251 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:45.399 not against evidence. A lot of people have this assumption that, oh, 252 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:49.559 if you are a pre supt guy, you don't do evidences. 253 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:55.120 It's rather that we're opposed to evidentialism, as if that's 254 00:11:55.159 --> 00:12:00.519 like a superior epistemic approach. We absolutely believe in it evidences. 255 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:02.679 You have to use evidences. For example, somebody comes along 256 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.440 and says there's no historical evidence for the person of Christ. 257 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:07.399 In that case, it would I. 258 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:11.159 Would be absolutely going to historical evidences because I want 259 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:13.840 to disprove that. But I think the strength of tag 260 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:15.679 is that I want to come along also with a 261 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:19.759 nuclear level argument to undercut that person's entire paradigm to 262 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:22.120 give them no room to even make an argument. I 263 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:23.639 think that's just a stronger process. 264 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:26.320 I agree, and I think it exhausts people, like I 265 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:29.279 know Destiny is like, was like, hey, you're not one 266 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:31.559 of those presuppositional guys when we were on No Jumper, 267 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:32.639 and I was like, I'm not going to I'm not 268 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:34.159 going to do that with you. Like we could just 269 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:37.159 talk just the basics, I would he would have debate 270 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:38.159 me on that. I want to. 271 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:40.960 We try for years, and Destiny would not. He doesn't 272 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:42.759 want to debate it. He explicitly says he will not 273 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:45.159 do that. He would only debate me on politics, and 274 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:46.559 I'm not really interested in politics. 275 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:49.360 Yeah, he wouldn't even he didn't even want to engage 276 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.759 with anyone that was presupposition. Yeah, exactly, Which is interesting. 277 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:54.360 Your conversation with myth Vision, I don't know if you 278 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.399 remember that randomly came up in my thing and that 279 00:12:57.440 --> 00:12:58.840 was one of those same thing, like you kind of 280 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:02.440 chopped the legs from underneath him with the presuppositional portrait, 281 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:03.919 Like how do you even come to know anything? 282 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:04.080 Right? 283 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:07.000 We did the same with Matt Dilloney with stuff on moloney, 284 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:09.840 it was all the same type of stuff. Yeah, I'm 285 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:12.720 sure there's been other atheists, but yeah, I think it's 286 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:17.039 just a really strong argument for atheists. It can, in 287 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:20.759 an indirect, roundabout way, work with unitarian Muslim type positions, 288 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.559 but it's harder to get to that end goal. So 289 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:28.200 I think with Muslims and other theistic positions, it's better 290 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.679 to just kind of go for the internal contradictions like 291 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:34.320 Islamic dilemma of that kind of stuff. But yeah, I 292 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:39.279 just think tag is a superior philosophical argmentation, and I 293 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:41.279 come out of philosophic background. 294 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:45.399 So yeah, you talk about debating Muslims. I loved you 295 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:48.799 and Sam Schamoun debating on value tayment for the Christian position. 296 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:51.759 I was like, y'all coming. 297 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:56.679 Together, the Catholic and the Orthodox together united, and they 298 00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:58.480 even try to throw out some bait. They try to 299 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:00.360 get you guys to kind of turn on each other 300 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:02.399 a couple of times, and you guys didn't take debate. 301 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:03.799 I thought it was a great debate. I thought it 302 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:06.639 was I thought it was fantastic. And then. 303 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:12.679 You and Sam have your situation. What was your impression 304 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:14.679 of the debate you had with him? As a debate 305 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.440 partner on valutainment and then when do you think that 306 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:21.399 devolved to what ended up devolving to which you will 307 00:14:21.399 --> 00:14:21.799 get into. 308 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:22.840 Yeah. 309 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.159 So, I mean we had been on pretty good terms 310 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:27.960 for five years ish, six years. 311 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:29.879 I mean, wasn't he kind of flirting with. 312 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:31.559 It? 313 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:33.679 Yeah? And then I think he decided to go the 314 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:35.039 you know, the paybal route. Yeah. 315 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:39.279 So, and his thing is like generally like I just 316 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:40.960 want people to go to high church. I just want 317 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:44.440 people to go to Apostolic succession church, you know, which 318 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:46.360 is which is really interesting because I don't think it 319 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:46.960 works that way. 320 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.960 But I don't know, you could enlighten me, no, I mean, yeah, 321 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:50.440 we just did a. 322 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:52.320 Stream with my buddy Kai from worthwox sh Hot of 323 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:54.639 critiquing that position of the idea of a sort of 324 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:57.679 a generic Apostolic Christianity, which yeah, yeah, it. 325 00:14:57.639 --> 00:14:58.519 Doesn't really make sense. 326 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:02.480 I mean, but the that debate happened because they were 327 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:05.679 really looking for on freshman fit. They wanted like a 328 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:07.600 high profile Muslim Christian debate. 329 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.159 It was bad, said right, but I mean I just 330 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.879 want to give you know, because I appreciate Myrin setting 331 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:15.360 that up. That was cool for him to do that. 332 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:18.600 And they were like, you know, we want really kind 333 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.759 of aggressive debaters because we're going to put aggressive Muslims 334 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:26.120 on and it was going to be Daniel Hakikachu and Jake, 335 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:28.919 and Jake canceled for whatever reason because he didn't want 336 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:31.279 to do it. But so then they brought in Ijaz, 337 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:35.600 who's I don't think a very good debater. But uh, 338 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:39.360 I was happy to like do the you know, step 339 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.600 back because Shimoon definitely knows Islam very well and he 340 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:44.519 knows the Hadiths, you. 341 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:48.440 Know, infinitely better than I do and all that. So yeah, 342 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.759 I thought it was a perfect team up for that situation, 343 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.559 and I tried to bring some you know, philosophical internal 344 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:56.360 critiques to the to the table. Uh. 345 00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:58.080 And I think it was a blowout because if you 346 00:15:58.120 --> 00:15:59.879 go and I mean, it's had multiple millions of views 347 00:15:59.879 --> 00:16:01.960 across the platform. So if you go to the fressire 348 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:05.879 Fit channel, you can see forty thousand ish comments, ninety 349 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.919 eight percent is Loam lost, So optics were pretty bad 350 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.840 for Muslim So, I mean, and that was last That 351 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:16.799 was I think the biggest debate of last year except 352 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:18.759 for West Side Billy Carson, Like, those are the two 353 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:21.759 biggest debates last year in terms of views, so it 354 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:25.440 was it was providentially great. And then you know, you've 355 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.240 got Sam moving continuing the last couple of years in 356 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:31.159 the direction of papism, and you know, my buddies and 357 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.639 I we obviously didn't want him to go in that direction. 358 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.440 So we we we're having this kind of backdoor DM 359 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:39.159 conversation for a long time. 360 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.480 With him directly him a chatting directly behind the scenes. 361 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.200 And the weird part was that we've been talking about 362 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.600 setting up a debate on his channel about orthodoxy papism, 363 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:51.000 right you and him one. 364 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:53.519 On one or with a panel we had. 365 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:56.600 We're discussing all possible options, like we were even talking 366 00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.799 about doing presentations, just not even a debate like I 367 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.039 do it, because we've done that in the past. For example, 368 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.359 we had a dispute with VOCB Malone some years ago, 369 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:10.680 so Sam invited me and FDA to come on and 370 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:13.759 do a presentation and then separate VOKEB Malone. 371 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:16.720 Do a presentation. That way, nobody's getting mad, you know, 372 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:18.319 and you can hear both sides. 373 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:21.240 So we discussed that as a possibility. We discuss a 374 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:25.119 panel round table. But anyway, long story short, in the 375 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.440 context of this, I just sent him a DM saying, hey, 376 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.519 it was a very cordial do you want to set 377 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:35.359 up a debate on trinity in the essence sentnery distinction? 378 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:38.680 Because I think it's really important, contrasting to the Romancolic 379 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:39.640 position the worthodox to. 380 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:42.039 Get the energies. And he just flipped out. 381 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:44.880 It was like that was just a one How dare 382 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.640 you text me while I'm streaming because you're you're working 383 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:52.880 for the double It's like, what, totally cool for six 384 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:55.319 years and then it's like one tweet or one tag. 385 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:56.400 There was nothing else behind that. 386 00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:56.680 No. 387 00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:59.279 In fact, they even said in the next message, like 388 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:01.920 hey man, it's no reason to get upset. Let's set 389 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.440 up a timed response that way nobody gets angry. And 390 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:07.680 it just flipped out, even like it went even crazier. 391 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:10.799 So at that point I was like, Okay, something something 392 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.440 else is going on, So I just remove myself from 393 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:13.960 that situation. 394 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.279 Essence energy is distinction. 395 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:18.960 I don't want to get super in the weeds on it, 396 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:21.680 but it seems like Catholics take a more God's simplistic 397 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.720 and that his parts are him. God's love is God, 398 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.720 God's power is God, and you guys have a fair 399 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:32.599 to say a bit of a distinction between God's essence 400 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:36.480 and his energies, and that's the foundational disagreement. 401 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.079 So he had the reason that came up was that 402 00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:41.240 like mocked the energy's thing a bit right. 403 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:46.079 After the thing, but like he was presenting a differing 404 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:50.359 views of the Trinity from Protestant, Reman Catholic Orthodox people, 405 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:53.400 and that's what prompted me to message him and say, 406 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.599 in our view, there's not just a philly oquay and 407 00:18:57.640 --> 00:18:59.960 non philioquate model. There's also the question of the inner 408 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.039 juices that we believe is directly connected to the Father 409 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.599 as the soul cause or the monarchia in the Godhead. 410 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:09.640 So monarchical trinitarianism, which doctor bo Branson is a really 411 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:14.519 good Yeah, I got a couple of monarchical and we 412 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.359 think that like that doesn't stand alone. It also kind 413 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:19.759 of necessarily connects to the doctor of the energies because 414 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.039 the energies have the same movement as the person's in 415 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.279 the triad. Interesting anyway, So yeah, I included in the 416 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.400 offer like why don't we discuss trinity, phil oquay and energies? 417 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.799 And I think because he doesn't really know about that, 418 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:35.680 at all. He's new to a lot of these topics. 419 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:40.240 It was easier for him to just sort of flip out, 420 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:44.039 poison the well, spoil the possibility of having that debate. 421 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:48.640 Yeah, he he had. He had crashed out on me 422 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:50.559 the week before that. He had crashed down on somebody 423 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:54.119 else the week before that, And I was privately talking 424 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:55.519 to him, like trying to get him to walk off 425 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:58.200 certain ledges because it was like a consistent that's my 426 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:01.640 experience of like, hey man, like I'm not trying to 427 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:02.200 attack you. 428 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:03.079 Like if my. 429 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.279 Audience asks what do I think about this thing that happened, right, 430 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:09.279 I'm going to talk about it. If you don't want 431 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:11.359 me talking about it, I won't ever talk about you again. 432 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:12.759 I won't put you in a thumbnail, I won't do 433 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:14.279 any of that sort of stuff. And then he's like, no, no, no, 434 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:15.759 it's all good. It's all good, brother, thank you for 435 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:17.799 reaching out. And we had a really good conversation and 436 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:19.640 then it just it just completely went left, and it's 437 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.200 like bipolar, Like, yeah, there's something going on there. The 438 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.240 stuff that he said, though, seems to have crossed some 439 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:28.599 lines I've never seen him cross before, where he started 440 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:30.920 talking about your wife he started, I mean, he really 441 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.839 jumped out the window. And so that's some wild stuff 442 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:39.400 that I just had never I've never like there's certain 443 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:42.839 stuff this is just off limits, you know, And how 444 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:44.519 did you process that? And at that point where you 445 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:46.240 just kind of like, oh, this is something else. He's 446 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:49.319 having a mental health episode and I just need to 447 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:50.960 leave him alone. Was that kind of your temperament more 448 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:52.680 or less? Yeah, And I don't mean that in a 449 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:53.440 mocking way. 450 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:55.559 I think actually there is some kind of like a 451 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:57.880 probably a bipolar thing going on. And I know he 452 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:01.359 said I had a tough time with his situation, which 453 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:03.720 I don't talk about people's personal drama usually. 454 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:05.400 I don't know about what's going on with him. 455 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:08.640 But I think that sometimes people have kind of like 456 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:10.359 what we talked about earlier with Alex, like there might 457 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:13.519 be something going on personally, and then that affects sort 458 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:17.680 of the internet optics and how they're operating on the internet. 459 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:19.960 So I mean that would be my guest, but I 460 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:20.319 don't know. 461 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:24.559 Yeah, in that I defended you because Redeem Zoomer I 462 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.079 think responded to something I defended you, and I said, hey, 463 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.480 like Jay's been nothing but kind in our interactions privately 464 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.000 and publicly, and I think like Sam's crossed the line. 465 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:35.920 And then people started replying to me and are like, well, 466 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:38.119 Jay is not always the kindness and he's not always 467 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:43.319 the nicest. And there was a thing about something about 468 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:46.799 Coptic Christians and you were mocking Coptic Christians that were martyrd. 469 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:50.519 I didn't mock anything. I questioned the legitimacy of the 470 00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:55.880 video because mainstream news article's sad that the videos are questionable. 471 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:58.519 So all I did was repeat what was in the news, 472 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:01.599 and I didn't say for sure nobody had. I just said, 473 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.920 we don't know on the basis of just this piece 474 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.880 of evidence, got it. So I've always thought like there's 475 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:10.920 nothing wrong being skeptical about authoritative claims and sources. And 476 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.799 if you look at where those videos come out of, 477 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:14.359 there are dubious sources. 478 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:15.319 But I don't know. 479 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:19.880 So people assume that, oh, I'm saying for sure that 480 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:22.519 nobody's ever been martyred, nobody's ever been killed. 481 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:22.880 No. 482 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:24.680 I was just taking a skeptical attitude. And I still 483 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.960 take skeptical attitudes to when I see an immediate fluid 484 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.960 situation where something's developing just happening. I'm not going to 485 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.720 immediately buy into it. I'm going to wait and see. 486 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:38.079 And I've always had that attitude. 487 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:38.559 Got it. 488 00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:43.559 So from our vantage point, for my vantage point, one 489 00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:46.799 of the things that we hold I guess in pretty 490 00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:50.200 high regard fruit of the spirit, right, kindness, gentleness. 491 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:53.400 Jesus says that the world. 492 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:55.440 Will know that you are my disciples about how you 493 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.240 love one another and treat one another right. And so 494 00:22:58.240 --> 00:22:59.599 some of the critique about you is that you're not 495 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:01.720 always the most kind, You're not always the most gentle, 496 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:04.440 You're not always the most loving. I understand as a 497 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.240 constant creator, you're on stream eight hours a day. We've 498 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:08.839 talked about some of the stuff privately which we don't 499 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:10.319 need to get into in terms of like some weird 500 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:12.400 kind of death threats and that sort of stuff that 501 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:16.240 comes up for creators. And you've said, here, hey, man, 502 00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:19.720 like I've had to go to confession for losing my temper. 503 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:21.799 Sure do you think that that's a that's a fair 504 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:23.839 critique of Jay Dyer. Jay Dyer isn't the most kind, 505 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:25.240 he's not the most gentle, And is that kind of 506 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:28.240 why you're like, hey, like, I'm not an Eastern Orthodox 507 00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:31.240 poster child online, Like, I'm a guy who's in a 508 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.160 variety of things in Eastern Orthodoxy is one of them. 509 00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:36.839 I think in the realm of debate, you're going to 510 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:41.680 have situations that get heated and yeah, I've lost my temper. 511 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:44.480 I don't know. Like, but if you think. 512 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:47.599 About in terms of eight years of online debating, and 513 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:50.960 most of those are like three, four or five hour discussions, 514 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.920 and if you've got like a handful of instances out 515 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.599 of hundreds, maybe thousands of hours, I don't see that 516 00:23:58.680 --> 00:23:59.160 as like. 517 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:00.920 The end of the world. 518 00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:04.799 It's like you're you're ignoring the ninety five percent of 519 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:08.720 the time where we're having cortial conversations in our actions. 520 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:09.720 Q and A. 521 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:13.039 Another thing too is like if you've done debates for many, 522 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:16.640 many years, you can a lot of times pretty quickly 523 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.039 since when somebody's debating a good faith or whether they're trolling, 524 00:24:20.599 --> 00:24:22.400 and if you open it up to the public for 525 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:25.000 hours a week, which is what we do, I mean, 526 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:26.720 you're going to have a lot of people who come 527 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.680 in bad faith trolling. They immediately start talking about your wife. 528 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:32.720 Mayby just start talking about your you know, would you 529 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:34.599 do ten years ago when you said this, you know, 530 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.519 it's like that's evidence is a bad faith. And so 531 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:40.720 usually I'm pretty heavy handed about just booting or moving on. 532 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:42.839 So a lot of people take that as old look 533 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:45.759 so mean, he just boots people if you're not a 534 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:50.000 serious debater for open forum, like it's just wasting everybody's time. 535 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:51.640 So that's going on. 536 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:54.880 You've got people who don't understand that even in classical 537 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:59.160 pedagogy of debate, rhetoric is part of it. So making jokes, 538 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:03.920 making jabs, that's part of rhetoric and debate. It doesn't 539 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:07.240 mean that your whole stick or debate is rhetoric. In 540 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:10.160 jabs or else, it will be evident that you don't 541 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:11.599 have any substance to the argument. 542 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:11.880 Right. 543 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:14.720 But if you can watch a classical debate like Hitchens 544 00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:18.640 on the Oxford Union, you'll see him doing a presentation 545 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.440 and every four or five minutes throwing in a joke, 546 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:23.839 a jab my opponent. Of course, he's never studied this, 547 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.079 so you wouldn't know. But these are little jabs that 548 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.279 are just it's just rhetoric. That's part of debate. But 549 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:30.720 a lot of people don't know that, and so they 550 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:33.799 they'll latch onto something like that, or but I also 551 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.480 have a side of me that's not the debate world, 552 00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:42.200 which is comedy, impressions, skits. We've been doing that for years, 553 00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:45.000 and so I might make fun of somebody like Lofton 554 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:47.279 or something like that, and then that's scene as oh, 555 00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:49.880 that's so mean, that's so mean, But then everybody else 556 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:50.440 makes jokes. 557 00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:52.480 It's like, what would you say the line is? 558 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.160 Is the line at like calling somebody an idiot like 559 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:56.279 I've seen people. 560 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:57.599 Send me closely. I don't even think that's like. 561 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:00.359 I mean, if Proverbs says you can identify, well, I 562 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:02.920 don't see why it's it's not. Jesus says not to 563 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:05.519 call a person a fool without reason. But I mean, 564 00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:08.519 how could I if Proverbs tell me to avoid the fool, how. 565 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:10.400 Could I avoid the full? I don't identify the fool? 566 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:13.200 But no, I think you know, if you look at 567 00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:16.880 Jesus's like even the way Jesus approaches debates. He talks 568 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:19.839 about the Pharisees as vipers. He talks about Herod being 569 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:25.680 a fox, which is derogatory term, but it's not the majority, right, 570 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:27.400 So I would say, you know what is Paul said, 571 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:30.599 let your let your speech be grace, sprinkle with salt. 572 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:33.359 So yeah, if there's some times there's some salt, but 573 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:35.039 it's not that it doesn't dominate. 574 00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:37.920 Do you think it's because they're remote, that the conversations 575 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:40.759 are remote, that that's why it's hard, Like I avoid 576 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:45.359 anything remote virtual because I know myself and I know 577 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.920 I'm way more likely to get nasty or to get 578 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.319 combative online online than if like me and you are 579 00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:55.119 having a steak and hanging out the night before and 580 00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:56.119 then we're having a conversation. 581 00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:59.039 There's definitely a veil of. 582 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:03.720 Nastiness that can't like because of the Internet, there's a veil, 583 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:07.240 and people can get nasty definitely in a way that 584 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:08.119 they wouldn't in person. 585 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:09.920 For sure, that definitely happens. 586 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:12.359 But also like that, when we did the live debate 587 00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:15.559 in Nashville, we had that three way debate with me 588 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.200 Catholic and a Protestant. It was still heated and aggressive 589 00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:21.480 and there was jabs. There was jokes on all sides. 590 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:25.559 So it doesn't necessarily mean that they won't be heated, 591 00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:28.640 but it might not get out of hand in person. 592 00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:29.039 For sure. 593 00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:30.880 Yeah, I mean you're pretty buff, dude. You probably you 594 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:32.880 probably beat me up pretty pretty good. So I don't 595 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.039 know if I want to like, I. 596 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.079 Don't know about that. Let me see. 597 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:40.799 Yeah, so I think I think for me, some of 598 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:43.279 the debate stuff is interesting. It's definitely great entertainment. I 599 00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:43.839 will say that. 600 00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.519 Let me add to that, Like in the formal debates, Yes, 601 00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:51.519 I can only think of one or two of maybe 602 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:55.119 twenty five formal debates where I called somebody dumb or 603 00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:55.599 an idiot. 604 00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.240 If you haven't call anyone's mother or whore, to your credit, 605 00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:05.319 now you've never called anyone's mother who I mean. 606 00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:08.279 In the informal debates, like I take the attitude I 607 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:12.519 tell people like, yeah, you're you're not here as the 608 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:15.960 expert debater. You're here as the nube, but calling in sure, 609 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:17.759 and you're gonna be held to the standard that anyone 610 00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:19.400 else to be held to because I've been debating for 611 00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:21.880 twenty five years. You're not gonna like yeah. So it's 612 00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:25.079 a different modus operanda than when it's a formal debate 613 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:27.400 with moderator and timed situation. And if you go watch 614 00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:31.359 any of the Muslim debates except for maybe Sneako and 615 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.519 Muslim Lantern, I think I called him an idiot once 616 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:35.920 in that debate, but all the other ones are pretty 617 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:36.920 like they're heated. 618 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.839 But I don't think there's any violations of yeah, now 619 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.759 that makes sense. I think I think the yeah. 620 00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:47.359 I just I've just made it a point to stay 621 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.200 away from anything remote, and anytime I break that rule. 622 00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:52.440 Anytime I break that rule, I end up crashing out, 623 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.240 and I like stupid in my in my experience, I 624 00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:59.240 just had Alex O'Connor calling remotely and I was not 625 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:01.359 pumped with how I you know, I. 626 00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:03.200 Just yeah versus like debate. 627 00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:07.759 It was about the Isaiah word for word debacle with 628 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.440 Wes Huff and he was really like, but it technically 629 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:14.319 wasn't word for word, And I'm like, Alex, but ninety 630 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:17.079 nine percent word for word, you know, nearly word for 631 00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:18.799 word might as well be word for word. If a 632 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:20.960 compass ninety five percent full, it's full to me, like 633 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:25.000 we're arguing semantics. Since I just didn't like how I 634 00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:27.640 how I represented myself and how I represented my faith. 635 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:31.359 And then in that, by the grace of God, he 636 00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:33.400 came to our summit, a first summit, and I felt 637 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:35.599 like we hit it off, and I think it was hopefully, 638 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:40.720 you know, some redemptive qualities on my part in that. 639 00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:43.279 And then when we made the last video response to 640 00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.559 him conversation with Red, I just try to give gave 641 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:46.839 him a heads up and like, hey man, we're gonna 642 00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:48.519 have some fun with this intro, Like there's gonna be 643 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.240 some jokes and that sort of stuff, you know. But yeah, 644 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:55.119 I've just never had a great consentious conversation virtually. That's 645 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.759 that's gone over, and I've just tried to avoid avoid 646 00:29:57.799 --> 00:29:59.559 it like the plague, because the last thing I want 647 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:02.599 to do is may what I'm representing look bad, you know. 648 00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:05.799 So one of the things I did appreciate you about 649 00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:10.119 you is when we had our disagreement. The disagreement initially 650 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:14.079 was about I think I reacted to a Gavin Ortland 651 00:30:14.119 --> 00:30:17.359 video about why I'm a Protestant. I think in there 652 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:19.839 I probably said some stuff wrong about the councils. You 653 00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:24.880 made a response video, and then somewhere in there we 654 00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:26.599 talked and we agree that we'll have you on, we'll 655 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.880 have an in person conversation. And then someone was feeding 656 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:34.079 you information that I kept talking about you, and then 657 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:36.279 I was like, no, Jay, like when we talked, I 658 00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:38.680 haven't mentioned you since I haven't said anything about you. Actually, 659 00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:40.160 any time we talked about you now it is usually 660 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.480 pretty funny because we're always referencing in the middle class 661 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:44.799 and feel, so whatever's talking about you, it's always positive. 662 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:47.960 And in that I sent you the time stamp and 663 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:49.720 I showed to you like, hey, this was such as 664 00:30:50.119 --> 00:30:52.200 and to your credit, you were like very gracious and 665 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:54.759 you apologize publicly, and I was like, man like that. 666 00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:58.720 I wasn't expecting you to do that, Like your lore 667 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:02.160 on the internet was not what it was. And the 668 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:05.519 way you carried yourself in our disagreement, in the way 669 00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:07.640 you you you handle yourself, and I really appreciated that, 670 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:09.319 and I was like, I think Jay's is a good 671 00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:11.160 faith guy. Like I think we can disagree, but he's 672 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:15.960 a good faith guy. And so our disagreement initially, you 673 00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:18.720 know way more about church history than I do, and 674 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.680 you know way about way more about the creeds and 675 00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:23.400 all that stuff than I do. I think the the 676 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:25.480 what I was trying to say in that initial video 677 00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:28.039 and that was gosh, it's over a year ago, was 678 00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:30.599 in that second Council and you could you could refresh 679 00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.839 me is the word anathema? The second Icing council seems 680 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:40.559 to be cutting off anyone that doesn't what's what's the 681 00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:47.640 word venerate icons right as anathema, not as in you're 682 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:51.200 just outside of the church, you are now outside of salvation, 683 00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:53.559 that you're no longer saved. 684 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:54.680 And I and. 685 00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:57.079 I think that that's a pretty harsh stance. And I 686 00:31:57.079 --> 00:31:59.440 think that depending on which Orthodox person I'm talking to, 687 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:02.319 it's always is kind of getting different answers, right, So 688 00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:06.119 Father Hairs were more or less kind of like, hey, like, 689 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.400 I don't know if you're in, Like I don't think 690 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:11.200 you're in, right, And then I talked to other guys 691 00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:12.880 and they hit me with the we know where God's 692 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:13.400 spirit is. 693 00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:15.839 We don't know where God's spirit is, you know. 694 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:18.400 And so from your vantage point that word anathema in 695 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.880 that second council about icons, which, by the way, I 696 00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:22.880 love your guys as icons, I think you guys crush 697 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:27.680 it with art. Yeah, I got yeah, that's Jonathan Pego Like, 698 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.119 I love I love the art. I love the icons 699 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:34.759 like I love it. I've gone to Eastern Orthodox. Where's 700 00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:36.240 the last thing I went to? It was one of 701 00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:39.319 your guys's vespers. Is that what it's called? Yeah, the vesper. 702 00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:41.319 So I love it all. I am just in a 703 00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:44.440 spot where like I couldn't, I can't and probably couldn't 704 00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:48.119 bring myself to bow or kiss icons. But I don't 705 00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:50.079 mind if you're saying, hey, we're not buying it. It's 706 00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:53.480 not idle worship. I get the arguments, this is transcendent, 707 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:57.799 this is windows in the heaven. But that line of 708 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:03.680 anathema sounds like like if you're not within orthodoxy, you're 709 00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:07.119 you were not saved. Is that your position is that 710 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:09.000 the accurate position is at the historical position? 711 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.400 I would agree with at least what I've not heard 712 00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:14.160 the interview with other hearers, But the way that you 713 00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:17.200 stated what his position was, I would probably agree with that. 714 00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:21.319 Like we don't make judgments about individuals, and like I 715 00:33:21.319 --> 00:33:23.559 don't know your destiny, I don't know the work of 716 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:25.960 God's spirit in your heart. I do believe that, like 717 00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:29.559 the thief on the cross, God has the ability, through 718 00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:32.920 extra normative means, to join anybody to the mystical body 719 00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:35.240 in the ways that he sees fit. And you know, 720 00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:37.759 Paul says that it's not our position to judge those 721 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:40.720 that are without, we judge those that are within. Yeah, yeah, 722 00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:43.880 So we don't usually take the attitude of like individual. 723 00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:45.519 And I think that if you look at the way 724 00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:48.359 that the Icon Council speaks of it, and the way 725 00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:50.759 that even Roman Catholics kind of have the same attitude, 726 00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:55.839 where they'll say, for example, we condemn this proposition, like 727 00:33:55.880 --> 00:33:58.960 the medieval people teaching had this tendency to say, if 728 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.079 you believe this, this is a condemned proposition. But also 729 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:05.680 in orthoxology, the idea of heresy, it's not just being wrong, 730 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.239 it's also a person that is obstinate and wilful. So 731 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.199 we don't really nearly call everyone a heretic. Like my 732 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:16.599 Baptist grandmother isn't necessarily a heretic because she's wrong. Heresy 733 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:20.719 has to do with wilful and knowing obstinacy against what 734 00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:22.039 we believe is the true position. 735 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:25.039 So is that why you guys may call a Gavin 736 00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:28.719 Ortlund a herod? I would say, so you would say, so, okay, 737 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:34.559 in your framework, would you say your Baptist grandmother is 738 00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:36.760 going to hell? No? I don't, but I'm saying I 739 00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:39.239 don't know an individual level, you don't know. But in 740 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:42.159 a technical church, this person is like an obstinate, like 741 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:46.239 promoter and teacher. It's like that in that situation, yes, 742 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:48.880 they would be committing what we would say is a sin, 743 00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:53.199 and that cuts a person off. And so is everyone 744 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:57.320 who's committing said sin condemned eternally. Or you're saying we 745 00:34:57.320 --> 00:34:59.280 don't know on an individual level, but we will from 746 00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:00.360 our theology our. 747 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:04.480 Vantage like we can't judge that person because God's the 748 00:35:04.519 --> 00:35:08.320 ultimate judge. But our position is more like it's a 749 00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:12.960 warning of it's a it's a chastisement, right, And like 750 00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:16.039 the anathema pronouncements themselves. 751 00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:18.320 Are you going to sing that anathema song? More? 752 00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:24.599 There are chastisements like warnings. So even the church can't 753 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:28.519 like damn a person. We can just say if you 754 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:31.920 follow and take that position, it can lead to shipwreck 755 00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:37.880 and you're outside. But there's always but it's it's it's 756 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:41.280 it can lead to shipwreck. It's intended to be remedial, 757 00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.719 is what I'm trying to say. Anathema is intended to 758 00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:46.960 be remedial in the sense of it's a medicine. 759 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:50.280 It's a chastisement to call you back. But what if 760 00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:50.920 not like. 761 00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.199 Well, if I'm not in, like what if I am 762 00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:56.239 not in what if I've never been Eastern Orthodox, I 763 00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:58.159 grew up Oriental Orthodox, not but you know about my 764 00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:01.320 back I yeah, so I've I've never been in So 765 00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:02.239 am I anathema? 766 00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:03.840 Again? Like? 767 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:07.800 Yeah, Like the position that you hold is anathema. But 768 00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:11.159 I can't judge the state of your soul because I 769 00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:12.679 don't know the state of your soul. I don't know 770 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.119 your destiny. I don't God's not given me that assessment. 771 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:19.480 But if I perpetuate on in the trajectory that I'm 772 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:22.760 in right now, yes, and I don't become Eastern Orthodox 773 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:26.159 before the end of my life, or I think this 774 00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:27.760 is a nuance and you can correct me if I'm wrong, 775 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.400 because I don't want to misrepresent your sing Or there 776 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:33.679 isn't some sort of mystical working that kind of grafts 777 00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:36.800 me into being Orthodox without officially being Orthodox? Can I 778 00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:38.840 be Orthodox without take being a catecumen? 779 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.639 Again, like the thief on the Cross, he wasn't like 780 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.119 instructed in all the theology, but he had a genuine 781 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.639 repentance and a genuine joining to the body of Christ. 782 00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:51.599 So it's not so much like that you have to 783 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:57.119 have this vast theological knowledge. It's rather an attitude of 784 00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:59.880 humility and repentance that the thief on the cross had. 785 00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:03.559 So so that and for us salvation, as I'm sure 786 00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:05.400 you know, it's not like just a one point in 787 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.199 such thing. It's like there was salvation, it is ongoing, 788 00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:12.400 and there's an eschatological salvation. So yeah, it's three senses 789 00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:12.800 to that. 790 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:16.480 Okay. So is this similar to like voice or reason, 791 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:22.760 your familiar voice of reason. It's just an impression. He 792 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:26.199 has the best voice voice of Reason made it. 793 00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:30.320 Never he said something along the lines of anyone who 794 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:33.159 rejects the dogmas of the church is rejecting Christ himself. 795 00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:35.360 He says something like that, and then those Mary Mary 796 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:37.480 and dogmas would fall into that. And so I hit 797 00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:39.920 him up and I said, hey, man, like I really 798 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:42.199 struggle with their later Marian document, Like I don't have 799 00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:43.920 a problem with people calling Mary the Mother of God, 800 00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:47.159 but like the later stuff, right, which was you you 801 00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:51.199 probably know, it's better like a macalal conception and assumption assumption, 802 00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:53.519 like the stuff that they made eighteen hundreds. 803 00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:56.440 Yeah, it wasn't later like nineteen fifty nineteen eighteen hundreds. 804 00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.599 Well, there is a second maculate conception, and then there 805 00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:01.400 is I think you're right that. 806 00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:04.679 There's later Marian dogmas. I think someone will correct me 807 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:06.599 in the chat for that. Anyway, I just said, hey, man, 808 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.119 like I struggle to get behind these, are you saying 809 00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:11.480 that I'm outside of the church and he gave me 810 00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:16.280 the gosh? What is the language? It's like the wilful consent, 811 00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:20.079 Like you have to willfully consent to rejecting dogmas you 812 00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:20.559 know are truth. 813 00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:22.360 That's what I'm saying that that's what a heretic is. 814 00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:26.199 It's a wilful obstinacy against knowing the truth. 815 00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:27.000 Okay, that's fair. 816 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:33.320 But then if I'm a Protestant and I'm wilfully not 817 00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:36.960 trying to reject God, I don't hate God. I love Jesus, 818 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.000 And with the information that I have, I'm doing my 819 00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:41.480 very best to source through this stuff. I'm very in 820 00:38:41.559 --> 00:38:45.360 my verstor to reason to look at the information that's 821 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:48.159 in front of me to come to reasonable conclusions with 822 00:38:48.199 --> 00:38:52.079 what I see in scriptures. Wouldn't that categorically not put 823 00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:55.039 me in someone that is wilfully rebelling against God. 824 00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:57.920 I don't know the state of it, That's what I'm saying. 825 00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.440 We don't know. I don't know the state of your soul. 826 00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:01.840 Okay, that's fair, that's fair. I mean it's a similar 827 00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:03.159 argument I get from the Catholic. 828 00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:05.400 Yeah, yeah, I think we would agree with that basic idea. 829 00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:09.400 And at that point, like all I can do is say, 830 00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:11.760 you know, we would employ you to be Orthodox. 831 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:16.079 And so so from your vantage point, you would you 832 00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.760 would be willing to plant the flag firmly in that 833 00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:23.480 salvation does not exist outside of the Eastern Orthodox Church. 834 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:28.159 Correct, and that the only if anyone is saved, it's 835 00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:30.760 not because they're a Protestant or a Catholic or whatever, 836 00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:31.880 it's because. 837 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:33.599 There's a mystical salvation in some way. 838 00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:35.719 United them, like the thief on lacross to the mystical body, 839 00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:36.719 which is the Orthodox Church. 840 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:40.360 What if all Protestants and all Catholics are secretly united 841 00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:42.360 to the mystical Body of Christ and we just don't 842 00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:42.639 know it. 843 00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:44.480 I don't. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. 844 00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:47.480 I'm just throwing it out there. You know. I'm just listen, man. 845 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:51.280 I because you're you're looking for like a categorical all 846 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:52.679 and I'm saying that on. 847 00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:55.599 A case by case basis. It's between possible individually, but 848 00:39:55.639 --> 00:39:57.400 it's between that person and God and God and from 849 00:39:57.440 --> 00:39:59.800 our vantage point, that's why anathema is just like in 850 00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:01.639 the a macatholic pable position where they can them a 851 00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:04.960 proposition like the anathema is against Like they didn't say, 852 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:08.679 like list every layman who's a part of like an 853 00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:09.719 iconoclass church. 854 00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:13.280 They say, if you believe this anathema, what happened to 855 00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:16.519 those iconic class churches? Did they all just die or 856 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:19.239 did they go on? Did they like so? 857 00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:19.599 After? 858 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:22.079 And I see it too in sevent eighty seven, there 859 00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:24.440 was about a almost one hundred year period where you 860 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:27.400 had the dominance of the iconoclass, and then there was 861 00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:30.119 what's called triumph of Orthodoxy in eight forty three. 862 00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:33.519 It was at the second nineteen Council or okay, and 863 00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:34.920 I see it two as seven eighty seven. 864 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:38.960 Okay, So it says that the iconodual position is the 865 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.239 right position, Okay, But the iconic class and the conoclass 866 00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:45.920 emperors kept going, kept going, and they like shut down 867 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:48.920 and got rid of the icons Okay in eight forty three, 868 00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:51.559 almost one hundred year maybe seventy five years later, right 869 00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:54.519 fifty seventy five years later that you have what's called 870 00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:58.000 the triumph of Orthodoxy Council. It's a local Byzantine synod, 871 00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:02.599 but that's the synod that's considered to be the reaffirmation 872 00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:07.639 and the restoration of the Icons. That's where the Anathemas 873 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:09.760 service comes out of. And what's called the Sonata Kon 874 00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:13.079 of Orthodoxy, which has this long it's a service that's 875 00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.440 done in the Orthodox churches. That's the one I'll know 876 00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:19.480 where you actually it actually sings out and it's a 877 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:23.800 liturgical celebration mentioning all these various heretics and the victory 878 00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:26.440 of the Church over areas and the areas, and it 879 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:30.079 even mentions Platonism, it mentions Aristotle, it mentions Origin. 880 00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:33.440 They're covering all their basins with that one. 881 00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:36.320 So that kind of class church, those folks that were 882 00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.840 against the Icons for that one hundred years. 883 00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:40.679 What happens to this, well it's even prior to that. 884 00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:44.719 Yeah, what happens to those folks? Like did they cease 885 00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:47.239 being a church? Did they just kind of right off 886 00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:50.360 into nothingness? Like what happens? I mean they ended up 887 00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:51.760 dying out. It ended updying out. 888 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:54.000 Okay, So to me, to my knowledge, I'm not aware 889 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.199 of like after eight forty three, like any. I mean, 890 00:41:57.199 --> 00:41:59.559 there could have been some groups that. 891 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:04.199 They were they like completely against any images. 892 00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:04.360 No. 893 00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:07.320 In fact, they believed that the only legitimate images were, 894 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.440 if I'm going from memory, the Cross and the Eucharist. 895 00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:13.960 They were pretty much against art, though generally speak it 896 00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.360 sounds like they were against all forms of art and depictions. 897 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:18.000 Uh. 898 00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:21.679 The basis for the arugmentation was Neoplatonism and the arguments 899 00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:24.079 that origin made got it. So they were Originists and 900 00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:31.079 neoplatonic got it. So in terms of by the way, 901 00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:34.480 one interesting side note on that is that the majority 902 00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:41.360 of the people promoting iconoclasm were the normative bishops, that 903 00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:46.159 the some of the prominent patriarchs and the emperor, and 904 00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:50.159 the restoration of icons came about from the laity and 905 00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:50.920 the monastics. 906 00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:53.639 That is interesting that that it was was a lay movement. 907 00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:58.159 Interesting Okay, So it wasn't all bishops that were iconoclasts, right, 908 00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:01.360 but it was large. The iconoclass was dominated by the 909 00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:04.280 emperor and the iconic class bishops and patriarchs got it. 910 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:05.519 Okay. That's interesting. 911 00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.920 So as someone that's looking from the outside end, right, 912 00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:12.119 I grow up our Oriental orthodox, I become a Protestant later, 913 00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:17.280 I love Jesus, I'm in a church, I leave my family, 914 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:20.239 all all those sorts of things, and someone's looking at 915 00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:21.400 what is the one true church? 916 00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:21.960 Right? 917 00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:23.880 You believe the East Orthodox is the one true church? 918 00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:27.239 Now are you Russian Orthodoxy a real court church? 919 00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:27.920 Okay? I was. 920 00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:32.320 I came in under antiochins and twenty seventeen, but they're 921 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:34.920 all unified as as one communion e and then I 922 00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:36.719 became I went to start of going to roal Court 923 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.639 Church where I found Master as of father in twenty eighteen. 924 00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:40.320 Twenty eighteen. 925 00:43:40.360 --> 00:43:44.039 Okay, So is this some disagreement between the Russian Orthodox 926 00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:45.679 and the others over the Ukraine thing? 927 00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:48.119 Or is that so the EP which is the patriarch 928 00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:52.719 concept ANDOPLE is still in the status of not being 929 00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:57.199 inconmunion with the MP and I forget which it kind 930 00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:00.280 of fluctuates as to what the other patriarch it's status says, 931 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:04.039 because for example, Jerusalem at one point was pro MP 932 00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.800 and then I think they switched due to US pressure 933 00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:10.320 from the State Department to pro EP interest. 934 00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:15.199 So yeah, but a little side note, this has happened before. 935 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:19.000 It's not like a yeah yeah, So so earlier you 936 00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.880 were saying how you you would categorize a Gavin Ortland 937 00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:28.360 as a heritage Yeah, James White, James White, pretty much 938 00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:30.639 all Protestant teachers. It sounds like, so, then how do 939 00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:34.119 you feel about Gavin being a father? Josiah's conference in October, 940 00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:35.280 they're like a marriage conference. 941 00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:35.559 I don't. 942 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:38.679 I mean, like, I'm not gonna judge, Like having a 943 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:41.719 conference is like, I mean, I'm here talking to you 944 00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:43.920 and we disagree theologically. I mean, I don't know that 945 00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:45.639 you're a heretic because I don't I have not heard 946 00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:48.079 a lot of your opinions or views, or I don't 947 00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:52.000 know whether you're obstinate or not. I think it because 948 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:53.960 it's a case by case basis. It takes time to 949 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:57.079 see and to know, like what that person's positions are. 950 00:44:57.159 --> 00:44:59.559 How much do they know? That's why I don't. 951 00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:02.880 We don't throw the term heretic out willie nilly, like, oh, 952 00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:06.440 everyone's a heretic, because it's a case by case basis. 953 00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:10.800 But there is a distinction between that and what's called 954 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:12.280 the public profession. 955 00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:13.639 So that's why. 956 00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:17.239 Again, just like the Remancatholices did this, the Orthodox Church 957 00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:21.480 also says if you believe this position anathema, so it's 958 00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:25.880 condemning the proposition because we don't know every individual person's 959 00:45:26.119 --> 00:45:29.960 level of knowledge and status and culpability's right, So not 960 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:32.079 everybody's equally culpable, It's what I'm trying to say. But 961 00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:35.039 from your vantage point, someone that's a heretic showing up 962 00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:38.159 to an Eastern Orthodox conference is not a big deal. 963 00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:42.280 I only ask because like in my circles in Protestant 964 00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:44.960 and if you're doing anything with charismatics, like they're all 965 00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:48.119 everyone's a heretic that that's flinched around all the time, 966 00:45:48.519 --> 00:45:53.400 and so I end up having friends from these different pockets, 967 00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:56.719 and then it's like the guilty by association fallacy, like, oh, well, 968 00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:59.679 you're friends with this person, therefore you're endorsing every Yet 969 00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:04.159 so maybe to answer that question very easily, So the 970 00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:07.079 way that this is governed in the Orthodox world is 971 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:09.159 kind of someone in the Roman Caolic world, but we 972 00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:12.440 have different canon law, okay, And so in the Orthodox world, 973 00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:18.679 church law or canon law delineates the boundaries for what 974 00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:22.119 you can do or how far you could go. With 975 00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:28.599 somebody heterodox having conferences, writing a book, this kind of stuff, 976 00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:33.320 presenting papers at an academic conference, nobody cares about that. 977 00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:38.880 The canons define that I can't go to your church 978 00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:40.280 service and worship. 979 00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:43.280 Could you just come to my church service if. 980 00:46:43.159 --> 00:46:45.840 I had permission from my spiritual father. For example, let's 981 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:48.000 say you had a creationist come and do a lecture, 982 00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:51.880 and we believe in creationism, right, I could probably do that. 983 00:46:52.199 --> 00:46:56.199 I just can't engage in public liturgical worship with you 984 00:46:56.440 --> 00:46:59.440 or at your church, but you could come to our church. 985 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:02.840 You could come and worship at our church or participate 986 00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:04.400 or visit or whatever. That happens all the time. 987 00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:06.760 And do you guys view canon law as infallible. 988 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:11.159 No, it's just the normative governing principles of church law 989 00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:14.920 that bishops apply to case by case. So it's called 990 00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:17.719 economia right, the case by case basis. 991 00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:21.599 And can different bishops supply different canon law? 992 00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:24.159 Yes, because everybody's case is different, like for example, reception 993 00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:28.199 of converts. Right, A person who for example, was say 994 00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:32.199 baptized as a Armenian Orthodox or a Coptic or something 995 00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:36.800 like that, Like many bishops would not do the baptism 996 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:39.719 because they had a Trinitarian baptism, and so they might 997 00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:43.119 be received by christmation or just abjuration of air or whatever. 998 00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:45.800 I've heard that was a distinguishment between some folks that 999 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:49.119 were baptized as Protestants don't need to get rebaptized. Other 1000 00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:51.320 folks that do get baptized do need to givest. So 1001 00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:55.119 it's like a like a local regional bishop, I guess. 1002 00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:58.840 Case by case, yes, and the church the highest authorities 1003 00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:02.920 a bishop, okay. And so how bishops are there in 1004 00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:04.119 the world, Yeah, like. 1005 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:09.159 Tens of thousands, okay, thousands of bishops and they're over 1006 00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:10.119 different regions. 1007 00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:14.280 They have a jurisdiction theistic But I. 1008 00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:16.559 Mean, is it like there's a bishop of California, so 1009 00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:18.280 he oversees all the priests in California. 1010 00:48:19.079 --> 00:48:21.440 In the US is different because US is a unique 1011 00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:24.079 place where you have so many people coming from other 1012 00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:28.440 countries that you have overlapping jurisdictions, which has never really 1013 00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:31.280 happened because usually in church history you have, for example, 1014 00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:36.360 if Russia sends out missionaries, that becomes a jurisdictional territory 1015 00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:38.840 of the Russian WANs Rock Church. But in America you 1016 00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:41.960 have this melting pot and so many expatriates that you 1017 00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:45.000 can be in New York and you have like twenty 1018 00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:48.039 overlapping you know, groups and yeah, so it's very confusing 1019 00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:48.840 in America. 1020 00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:50.960 But back to the question of canon law. 1021 00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:56.239 For example, in the six Secondmentical Council, there's canons to 1022 00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:00.360 talk about certain Aryan groups. Their baptism was not even 1023 00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:04.199 considered a baptism because it was Unitarian, because they were Arians, 1024 00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:08.320 and like that, let the saddleback guy baptizing yourself, we 1025 00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:11.199 wouldn't recognize that as a baptism. So there has to 1026 00:49:11.239 --> 00:49:14.280 be delineations and like case by case stuff. 1027 00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:15.320 Gotcha, that makes sense. 1028 00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:22.000 We had Gavin at my summit and or Eastern Orthodox 1029 00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:24.239 friend of mine didn't want to attend because they couldn't 1030 00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:28.639 get clearance from their spiritual father. But then once Father 1031 00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:31.320 Josiah came and Deacon Christopher came. Decan Christopher's a legal 1032 00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:34.480 local Eastern Orthodox guy, and his father Josiah came down, 1033 00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:38.199 then it was almost like, well, if there's someone higher 1034 00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:40.199 than me that is willing to come to an event, 1035 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:43.519 I probably could or I could come to the next one, 1036 00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:46.559 because there seems to be I guess an authority that could. 1037 00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:48.480 You know, I don't want say endorse as Gavin, but 1038 00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:50.880 is willing to collaborate with Gavin Ortland, who I know 1039 00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:52.639 within some Eastern Orthodox circles. 1040 00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:55.599 You guys really don't like Gavin Orland. I don't personally 1041 00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:58.679 have an issue with him. The arguments I've heard of 1042 00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:00.679 not not pretty very convinced it. 1043 00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:02.519 Have you no? Okay? 1044 00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:06.800 Okay, So it sounds like you hold on, you hold 1045 00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:09.760 to like Salvation does not exist outside of Eastern Orthodox Church. 1046 00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:13.079 But it is possible that someone could have a mystical 1047 00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:17.199 God can join people to God can join the Cross. 1048 00:50:18.039 --> 00:50:22.079 So then if someone is looking at which church to join, 1049 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:27.559 there's eight churches that all claim Apostolic succession and to 1050 00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:30.079 be the one true church. Right, I can't name them 1051 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:32.679 all off the top, but I know Oriental Orthodox, right, 1052 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:33.440 so on and so forth. 1053 00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:35.679 So they all claim to be the one true church. 1054 00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:38.360 They all have Apostolic succession, but they're not all in 1055 00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:42.639 communion with each other. How does someone decipher what is 1056 00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:46.000 the one and true church? If Salvation only exists in 1057 00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:47.199 one true church. 1058 00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:51.559 Yeah, I mean this is a case where evidences and 1059 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:55.559 history are necessary. It's not going to be something a 1060 00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:58.599 priori or self evident. You would have to get into the. 1061 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:00.400 History of the church. There's just really no other way 1062 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:00.800 around it. 1063 00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:04.079 So I think one thing that Roman Catholicism tries to 1064 00:51:04.119 --> 00:51:08.159 do is answer that question you just ask by putting 1065 00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:11.119 forward the idea of a pope as the easy solution. 1066 00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:12.480 Yeah, we got it, we got a pope. We got 1067 00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:14.079 to put the guy problem solved. Right. 1068 00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:17.639 But then if you're in the Romancolic world for a while, 1069 00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:20.039 as I was from many years, you begin to realize 1070 00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:23.440 that that wasn't as easily answered as I thought, because well, 1071 00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:26.119 I wait a minute, don't we have to also interpret 1072 00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:29.559 the pope's writings. And there's all these tiers of status 1073 00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:32.119 of well, this is magisterial and this is what you know, 1074 00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:35.079 ordinary magisterium, and this is ordinary but not magisterium. And 1075 00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:37.360 so there's all these tiers, and it becomes a very 1076 00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:42.159 laborious exercise when you have ten thousand pages of like 1077 00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:47.199 papal stuff and councils to sift through versus what the 1078 00:51:47.320 --> 00:51:51.039 car salesman approach to Roman Catholicism and the pop apologizes 1079 00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:55.679 world sells. So anyway, I lived at throughout my twenties, 1080 00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:59.159 and and that's a different issue. But I think the 1081 00:51:59.239 --> 00:52:02.719 easiest way to answer the question you're asking is to 1082 00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:05.480 look at the seven slash eight ecumenical councils of the 1083 00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:06.159 first millennium. 1084 00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:07.480 Do you hold to seven or eight? 1085 00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:09.840 Well, the reason I say seven slash eight is that 1086 00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:13.480 the first seven are strictly theological, and they're the ones 1087 00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:16.039 that most people the Roman Catholic and Protestant world will 1088 00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:18.920 talk about the ecumenical councils. But no, we believe in 1089 00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:21.679 nine if you count the Palomite Synods. And the reason 1090 00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:24.639 the Palmite Synods are they've been received through the whole 1091 00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:29.079 Orthodox canonical world as authoritative, even though they weren't ecumenical 1092 00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:32.360 in the sense of like all of the bishops and 1093 00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:35.840 all the provinces or whatever. It was just a there 1094 00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:40.119 were Byzantine Synods to discuss the theologies Saint Gregor Palomas 1095 00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:44.559 versus the Roman Catholic filioquis position. So for the for us, 1096 00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:49.079 those Palamite Synods just count as the ninth ecumenical council. 1097 00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:52.079 But we also have pan Orthodox Synods and things that 1098 00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:56.119 we also consider normative, even if they're not quote infallible. 1099 00:52:56.199 --> 00:52:57.000 For us, it's like. 1100 00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:01.719 It's like your local bishop isn't infallible, but he's a 1101 00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:05.480 normative authority right same way that probably a Protestant would 1102 00:53:05.480 --> 00:53:08.880 consider like a minister. Right, he has a normative authority, 1103 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:10.079 but he's not necessarily infallible. 1104 00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:10.320 Yeah. 1105 00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:13.360 Yeah, you believe in authority outside of Scripture. We just 1106 00:53:13.400 --> 00:53:16.679 don't believe in any infaci which you know that because 1107 00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:17.519 you were Protestant. 1108 00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:19.440 Yeah, but I mean uh. 1109 00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:28.079 In terms of delineating between so Anglicans, Coptics, Assyrians, Roman Catholics, 1110 00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:33.480 some Lutherans in Eastern Orthodox would all claim Apostolic succession, 1111 00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:35.840 and we would admit that some of those groups, like 1112 00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:39.880 Roman Catholics and Coptics are ancient, but it's a question 1113 00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:43.239 of ecclesial authority in the history of the Church and 1114 00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:48.679 what the ecumenical councils actually contain in their normative theology 1115 00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:49.320 and process. 1116 00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:53.920 So you would give Apostolic succession to Anglicans and Lutherans, No, 1117 00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:54.400 not you. 1118 00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:58.760 I was just listening to the groups that claim it. 1119 00:53:58.920 --> 00:53:59.199 God is. 1120 00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:02.719 The way to suss out between those would be to 1121 00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:06.559 go to the councils themselves and see what the canons 1122 00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:10.480 teach and what the process of the councils was. For example, 1123 00:54:11.239 --> 00:54:13.599 we believe in the North Shores. Really then appslite canons. 1124 00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:16.119 That's like the first collection of canon law. So that 1125 00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:19.639 lays down principles that were accepted throughout the East, including 1126 00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:23.000 the Duro Canon, and the way that the bishop is 1127 00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:25.960 elected is local, so there's nothing to do for example, 1128 00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:27.599 in napslite canons with the. 1129 00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:31.440 Top top down, it's more bottom up. It sounds like yeah, yeah, 1130 00:54:31.639 --> 00:54:36.159 and it's episcopay that's decentralized. And that was the normative 1131 00:54:36.199 --> 00:54:37.599 church law in the East throughout. 1132 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:38.199 The whole three hundreds. 1133 00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:40.719 Same time in the West, when we look at the 1134 00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:44.039 Western synods in church law, whether it's Council of Rome, 1135 00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:49.760 pop Damasists, Augustine, et cetera, Carthaginian councils, it reflects almost 1136 00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:51.920 the exact same attitude in the West for the normative 1137 00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:54.599 church law in terms of the Dudo canon being accepted 1138 00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:56.920 in terms of the election of bishops, even though the 1139 00:54:56.920 --> 00:54:59.639 West had the Patriarch of Rome the pope, like, we 1140 00:54:59.719 --> 00:55:03.639 don't see this attitude of Vatican one infallibility, So you 1141 00:55:03.639 --> 00:55:05.800 know there was when you start looking at absolute canons 1142 00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:09.519 and the canons of the ecumenical councils, I would argue 1143 00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:11.320 that's the easiest quickest way. 1144 00:55:11.079 --> 00:55:13.400 To determine what is saule that question? 1145 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:18.800 What about I know some True Orthodox claim to be 1146 00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:23.480 more aligned to these councils than Eastern Orthodox. Have you 1147 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:25.679 engaged with the True Orthodox? What is your thoughts on 1148 00:55:25.719 --> 00:55:27.760 the True Orthodox, because they kind of have a lot 1149 00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:29.840 of what you're describing, but they say, but we're even 1150 00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:32.039 more hardcore and we take these councils even more seriously. 1151 00:55:32.079 --> 00:55:34.639 Yeah, the problem is my good buddy David Aarhon, He's 1152 00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:36.760 done a couple of good videos rebutting this. People could 1153 00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:38.760 go if they want a longer treatment, you could look 1154 00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:42.119 at David Aharhon's videos on his channel that addressed the 1155 00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:45.800 True Orthodox claims. This is a very very tiny I 1156 00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:48.119 mean it's almost no existent in the real world. I 1157 00:55:48.119 --> 00:55:52.320 mean I've seen one chapel in my travels across the country, 1158 00:55:52.400 --> 00:55:55.000 an actual uh one of these groups. 1159 00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:56.920 So it's almos. 1160 00:55:56.920 --> 00:55:58.000 I mean, even if you did want to go that 1161 00:55:58.079 --> 00:55:59.840 route like it would, you would basically not have a 1162 00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:02.360 church unless you were in Florida. 1163 00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:03.800 I think they have one in Florida. 1164 00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:07.920 But aside from that, it would mean essentially that all 1165 00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:12.039 the canonical churches have failed, and there's not. It's basically 1166 00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:14.679 a donatus type position. So I would argue, first of all, 1167 00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:17.039 donatism would mean an end of the episcopacy, and the 1168 00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:19.599 church is basically dead because it's because it's smaller, because 1169 00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:24.320 it's because it's almost non existent. The minuscule groups that 1170 00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:27.519 do exist, they're all out of commune with each other. 1171 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:30.599 There's probably five groups that are all not in communion. 1172 00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:36.079 But beyond that, the attitude this is really nuanced and niche. 1173 00:56:36.079 --> 00:56:38.679 But the attitude is very similar to the Roman Catholic 1174 00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:42.039 mindset of set of a contests and the way they 1175 00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:46.840 view can in law that if one person, say, commits 1176 00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:51.119 a sin or an error, the idea is like it's 1177 00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:53.480 a light switch that everybody in commune with them, it's 1178 00:56:53.480 --> 00:56:54.400 all blacked out. 1179 00:56:54.760 --> 00:56:55.800 So there's no grace. 1180 00:56:56.480 --> 00:57:00.079 And that is a donatus position because what it's denying 1181 00:57:00.280 --> 00:57:07.119 is the authority of synods to make the affirmation or 1182 00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:11.440 the declaration of a heresy or aschism, So authority in 1183 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:15.280 the or our churches, bishops in a synod, and you 1184 00:57:15.320 --> 00:57:18.599 can't erase all of that and say we don't accept 1185 00:57:18.599 --> 00:57:21.280 any synons or any bishops. We're going to create a 1186 00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:26.159 parallel episcopat or bishopric. That's classic Dunatism, classic schism. 1187 00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:29.360 Okay, well, what about what if someone says, well, yeah, 1188 00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:32.760 but you know, Jay Matthew seven says, the wide is 1189 00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:33.960 the road that leads a destruction. 1190 00:57:34.119 --> 00:57:35.719 Narrow go through the narrow gate. 1191 00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:38.440 And you know, hey, so what, they don't have a 1192 00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:42.280 ton of congregations, So what they're not super prevalent. Maybe 1193 00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:44.760 that's the real remnant and maybe that you know, like, well, but. 1194 00:57:44.719 --> 00:57:47.119 You could never have a situation because of the rest 1195 00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:49.360 of the teachings of the New Testament Book of Acts 1196 00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:53.199 x fifteen and what we believe are proofs of apslock succession, 1197 00:57:53.239 --> 00:57:56.079 you could never have a loss of the snodal reality 1198 00:57:56.119 --> 00:57:59.360 of the Church. So that position would require essentially they're 1199 00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:04.079 no longer being synods. They're no longer being authoritative declarations 1200 00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:07.559 from a synod because those positions are premised on all 1201 00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:11.440 the synods in world Orthodoxy being apostate. So there's no 1202 00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:15.320 longer snodal authority. There's just like a random dude in 1203 00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:18.559 a trailer park in Florida who says I'm the bishop. 1204 00:58:18.639 --> 00:58:21.960 That's the true remaining bishop. So in other words, can 1205 00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:23.880 you appoint more bishops? Like what if there no That's 1206 00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:24.320 what I'm. 1207 00:58:24.199 --> 00:58:28.679 Saying, Like, bishopric in the Canons is appointed by two 1208 00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:29.960 bishops are a metropolitan. 1209 00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:32.840 That's the absolute canons. Kyle bishops come about, right. 1210 00:58:33.159 --> 00:58:36.000 I'm saying, if this true Orthodox Church, which I don't 1211 00:58:36.039 --> 00:58:37.840 know much about them, to be to be transparent, but 1212 00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:42.000 if they were to hypothetically have an explosion of two 1213 00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:44.159 bishops coming together, making two more bishops, and all of 1214 00:58:44.199 --> 00:58:47.360 a sudden it grows and there's more congregations and it explodes. 1215 00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:49.679 What I'm saying is that it's already negated because it's 1216 00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:53.239 they've negated the synodal reality of the church. So once 1217 00:58:53.239 --> 00:58:57.599 you've denied the synods, then it's you feel like they're 1218 00:58:57.760 --> 00:58:59.679 you feel like they're dead, just like Protestantism. 1219 00:59:00.039 --> 00:59:00.840 Huh for us? 1220 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:02.320 So you would put him in the same category as 1221 00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:03.880 a protest well, I mean it would. 1222 00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:06.119 It would depends on like this. 1223 00:59:06.440 --> 00:59:08.159 I mean, to get really nuanced, like they wouldn't be 1224 00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.159 identical to Protestant because they don't hold all the Protestant idea, 1225 00:59:11.239 --> 00:59:12.679 ideologies and doctrines. 1226 00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:16.599 But it would be equivalent. 1227 00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:20.719 To the mindset of a Protestant that there's no synods 1228 00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:24.679 anymore and there's just this guy over here and this 1229 00:59:24.679 --> 00:59:25.400 guy over here. 1230 00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:29.039 Does that make sense? In other words, the Orthodox Church 1231 00:59:30.320 --> 00:59:32.639 make analogy to the papacy, like a romancality would say, 1232 00:59:33.239 --> 00:59:36.880 the papacy could never go away, right, And if you're 1233 00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:41.000 a set of a contest, you've adopted a position where 1234 00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:43.800 you can never have a pope again outside of some 1235 00:59:43.880 --> 00:59:47.719 miraculous event, because all of the cardinals are also vaticant 1236 00:59:47.719 --> 00:59:49.800 to apostates. Does that makes sense? So the whole thing 1237 00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:51.880 is died away. Episcope is basically died. 1238 00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:53.719 But even though you have a set of a concious bishop, 1239 00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:55.440 they can't elect the pope. 1240 00:59:55.480 --> 00:59:57.480 So you would put the true Orthodox in a similar 1241 00:59:57.559 --> 01:00:00.480 They're in a similar situation in that, rather rather than 1242 01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:04.199 denying a pope, there's no longer synods. Okay, all of 1243 01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:09.840 the Orthodox synodal synods are invalidated and gone. Got it? 1244 01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:13.960 So the church has fundamentally lost its elements and it's 1245 01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:15.039 constituent elements. 1246 01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:17.400 Okay, I mean, I guess that makes sense. I think 1247 01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:21.480 that I'm sure they'll have a response for this. For 1248 01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:22.119 those of them that. 1249 01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:25.840 They would probably say something like, will make a synod, 1250 01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:29.440 will will collect together, but they've never done that. 1251 01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:36.000 Interesting, Okay. It seems that folks who come to faith 1252 01:00:36.079 --> 01:00:39.360 like the distinguishment you made. You mentioned it earlier between 1253 01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:44.480 our views of salvation right where you guys see salvation 1254 01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:50.800 as an ongoing process, and there's a in my circles, 1255 01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:55.400 there will be a distinguishment between the justification of the 1256 01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:59.360 binary are you justified in the side of God versus 1257 01:00:59.800 --> 01:01:04.360 A the sanctification, the the the continuing on of the 1258 01:01:04.440 --> 01:01:08.400 spirit transforming you so so so being justified before God 1259 01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:11.519 versus being you know, justified before the world, or positional 1260 01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:16.800 holiness versus practical holiness. Right, so, so Protestants generally, and 1261 01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:20.079 I want to say, I feel like some Catholics kind 1262 01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:23.199 of make this distinguishment, is that there's a justification that 1263 01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:26.000 happens because of what Jesus did, and the debt is paid, 1264 01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:29.239 it is taken care of, and so we're saved by 1265 01:01:29.320 --> 01:01:30.719 grace through faith. 1266 01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:33.079 But then our position will be and we're saved two 1267 01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:33.760 good works. 1268 01:01:33.880 --> 01:01:36.360 So we should obey Jesus command and get baptized, we 1269 01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:39.039 should go to church every Sunday. We should do these 1270 01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:40.800 things because of their commands. 1271 01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:41.599 But are. 1272 01:01:43.199 --> 01:01:46.239 We would we would separate justification and sanctification. You guys 1273 01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:49.400 use this as the language that I understand is you're 1274 01:01:49.440 --> 01:01:52.920 you are saved, you're justified you're being saved. We would 1275 01:01:52.920 --> 01:01:58.280 say you're being sanctified, and you will be saved in heaven. Yeah, 1276 01:01:58.280 --> 01:02:00.079 you're you're gonna be resurrected, You're gonna be glorified. You 1277 01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:03.280 guys would probably call this theosis stetification. Our language is 1278 01:02:03.280 --> 01:02:04.760 going to be a bit different there, but it's similar 1279 01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:11.280 to similar concepts. Do you reject that view of justification 1280 01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:15.599 that and is this because of like because of church 1281 01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:17.960 history and church councils, or because like when I read 1282 01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:20.599 Romans and I read Galatians, like there seems to be 1283 01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:23.360 this consistent Paul doubling and tripling down and that we're 1284 01:02:23.559 --> 01:02:28.960 justified being a thing that has happened because of the Cross, 1285 01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:31.159 Like we're justified because of what Jesus that you know, 1286 01:02:31.239 --> 01:02:32.400 you know all the verses, I mean I could pull 1287 01:02:32.440 --> 01:02:34.480 them up, but you know the verses of like Romans 1288 01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:37.119 A three and all are justified freely by His grace 1289 01:02:37.159 --> 01:02:39.119 through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. So it 1290 01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:42.599 seems to be this binary of justification. And then we 1291 01:02:42.679 --> 01:02:44.800 get to work out our salvation. We work in what 1292 01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:47.559 Jesus has worked. We work out what Jesus worked in. 1293 01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:51.920 You would disagree with that on the basis of scripture, 1294 01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:53.880 or primarily scripture or church history. 1295 01:02:54.679 --> 01:02:58.800 Well, scripture, philosophy, and church history all three. 1296 01:02:59.559 --> 01:03:01.719 So give me the scriptural pitch on why justification by 1297 01:03:01.719 --> 01:03:03.239 grace through faith alone is bad. 1298 01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:07.599 Well, the phrase is not bad, but what is meant 1299 01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:11.039 by the phrase and what we think the phrase means. So, 1300 01:03:11.840 --> 01:03:15.159 being formerly a Calvinist, you know, solo fida a proponent myself, 1301 01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:17.360 I understand where you guys are coming from and how 1302 01:03:17.360 --> 01:03:19.639 you would read the text. The first thing I would 1303 01:03:19.639 --> 01:03:21.760 say is that when you look through you say the 1304 01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:24.840 Gospel of John, and when Jesus talks about the way 1305 01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:29.280 that God's declaration works, it seems to be efficacious when 1306 01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:32.280 he speaks. So for example, when he speaks, he creates, 1307 01:03:32.360 --> 01:03:36.320 the world is created. There's no declaration that doesn't achieve 1308 01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:40.079 a metaphysical or ontological effect. So for us, the idea 1309 01:03:40.159 --> 01:03:44.239 that you could divorce the legal status from the ontological 1310 01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:47.480 or metaphysical status is not possible. And especially when you 1311 01:03:47.480 --> 01:03:50.679 go back to Luther. Luther's really the first to propose 1312 01:03:50.760 --> 01:03:54.199 this because he's influenced by two people, Gabriel Bile and 1313 01:03:54.280 --> 01:03:56.880 William of Baukham, and they're the most famous medieval nominalist. 1314 01:03:57.119 --> 01:04:00.559 I'm not saying that Luther was identical to nominalism, but 1315 01:04:00.719 --> 01:04:04.480 that he explicitly read them and said that their philosophy 1316 01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:07.639 helped him figure out how you could be in an 1317 01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:12.280 imputational legal status without ontologically having that status. So there's 1318 01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:16.440 a divorce between the term, the word nominalism, namism, and 1319 01:04:16.480 --> 01:04:21.440 the ontological status or the reality of that that you possess. Okay, okay, 1320 01:04:21.440 --> 01:04:23.719 So conclusion, then I'm gonna go back to the scripture. 1321 01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:26.079 But the point being I'm blending the scripture and the 1322 01:04:26.119 --> 01:04:29.760 philosophical point is that in the ancient and medieval world 1323 01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:33.280 there were no nominalists, and so nobody had yet divorced 1324 01:04:33.719 --> 01:04:36.679 the name or the term from the ontological reality. So 1325 01:04:36.719 --> 01:04:40.960 if God declares something so, it must actually in reality 1326 01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:43.519 and ray be so. So if God declares us righteous 1327 01:04:43.559 --> 01:04:46.360 and just and transformed and illumined and in Christ, et cetera, 1328 01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:49.559 we actually have to be that, and so there's no 1329 01:04:49.719 --> 01:04:53.400 such thing as a purely legal imputational righteousness. 1330 01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:55.000 So that's the philosophical point. 1331 01:04:55.239 --> 01:04:58.199 But back to scripture, I would argue that again, when 1332 01:04:58.199 --> 01:05:01.920 God speaks, it's efficacious and all those passages like in 1333 01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:04.119 Romans when he talks about being baptism in Christ or 1334 01:05:04.119 --> 01:05:05.960 Titus three when he talks about the washing of labor 1335 01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:09.519 of regeneration. We see those as actually referring to the 1336 01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:13.079 actual sacramental right, and there's no reason to divorce them. 1337 01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:17.039 So the Protestant presupposition is that to maintain the legal 1338 01:05:17.079 --> 01:05:21.480 invitational solofide position, we must divorce the celebration of the 1339 01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:25.199 right from the regeneration or the spiritual effects. And we 1340 01:05:25.239 --> 01:05:27.239 don't believe that. We think that they're united. Even luther 1341 01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:31.239 believe that. In Suda Augustine, yeah, because they talk aboutchasal regeneration. 1342 01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:34.119 Right, right, right, So when I'm looking at like, I 1343 01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:36.159 think this glues what you just said together. 1344 01:05:36.280 --> 01:05:36.440 Right. 1345 01:05:36.440 --> 01:05:38.719 This is Philippians chapter two. I'm sure you know it. 1346 01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:41.199 Can you can you read that? I don't want to? 1347 01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:41.639 Yeah? 1348 01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:43.559 Okay, So yeah, work hard to show the results of 1349 01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:46.440 your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear, right, 1350 01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:48.239 which we would all say yes and amen to that, 1351 01:05:48.679 --> 01:05:50.480 for God is working in you and giving you the 1352 01:05:50.519 --> 01:05:53.559 desire and the power to do what pleases him. Right, 1353 01:05:53.559 --> 01:05:56.239 So there's this death seems to be a bridging. I 1354 01:05:56.239 --> 01:05:57.639 don't know if the bridging is the right where, but 1355 01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:00.800 it seems like what you're saying, there is an ontological 1356 01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:03.000 shift that happens. Our heart of stone is replaced with 1357 01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:06.000 a heart of flesh. God give what writes his law 1358 01:06:06.039 --> 01:06:10.000 on our hearts. And so then when we're reading Romans right. 1359 01:06:09.880 --> 01:06:11.760 By the way, and that past is that you just read, Yeah, yeah, 1360 01:06:12.280 --> 01:06:14.320 the Greek word is inner gaya. 1361 01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:17.880 It's energies, which which it's the power. So that Paul 1362 01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:21.400 uses inner gaya and dunamus and for this word power, 1363 01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:24.679 that's uh if I re call us dunamus, but in 1364 01:06:25.159 --> 01:06:29.400 uh it's yea, he uses innergia and he uses dunamis, 1365 01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:32.239 and that's has to be. By the way, I'm just 1366 01:06:32.239 --> 01:06:34.079 pointing out that it teaches the essence entergy distinction. By 1367 01:06:34.079 --> 01:06:36.199 go ahead, okay, no, no, no, no, By the way, I 1368 01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:38.679 don't just look up in blue letter the Paul's usage 1369 01:06:38.679 --> 01:06:39.280 of innergeia. 1370 01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:42.440 Yeah, this is this is innergaya in the logos Bible software. 1371 01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:44.400 So I don't have an issue with the distinction of energies. 1372 01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:45.239 I don't, I don't need. 1373 01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:49.079 But what I'm saying is that that also by extension, 1374 01:06:49.159 --> 01:06:50.800 I'm not trying to deflect because you can go back 1375 01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:52.440 to the passages. But where I was going to go 1376 01:06:52.519 --> 01:06:56.760 next was that the essence entergy distinction isn't just an abstraction. 1377 01:06:57.360 --> 01:07:00.800 It's unique. Only Orthodox Church teaches the essence interesstinction, and 1378 01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:04.719 that has to be an ontological reality that we're participating in. 1379 01:07:05.239 --> 01:07:08.960 Protestantism teaches through the Covenant, if you mean classical Calvinist type. 1380 01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:12.880 So the Covenant of Works actually ends up making Jesus 1381 01:07:12.920 --> 01:07:17.920 into an historian Jesus who merits a status of grace, 1382 01:07:18.440 --> 01:07:21.079 and it's not an ontological position that he has as 1383 01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:23.480 the son of God. That's because if you're Colvinist, you 1384 01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:26.840 believe I'm not a Calvinist. Okay, Well, the Covenant works 1385 01:07:26.960 --> 01:07:30.360 in the Calvinist position of justification means that Jesus fulfills 1386 01:07:30.400 --> 01:07:34.440 the Covenant of Works to grant us the perfect legal 1387 01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:39.119 status that he kept the law right. So I mean, yeah, 1388 01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:41.480 I know, if there's not a Covenant works, Luther thinks 1389 01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:44.159 that Jesus perfectly keeps the law to give us that rightchousness. 1390 01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:45.920 Got you, Yeah, it imputed righteousness, I understand. 1391 01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:50.320 Okay, But Covenant of works, even if you don't. If 1392 01:07:50.320 --> 01:07:52.880 you're a Lutheran, you don't affirm covenant works. It's the 1393 01:07:52.920 --> 01:07:56.119 still the same principle that Jesus keeps the law right right, 1394 01:07:56.239 --> 01:07:59.599 and so the righteousness that we get is a legal status. Yes, 1395 01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:05.280 this is not a legal status. Primarily it's an ontological reality. 1396 01:08:05.440 --> 01:08:08.480 Thus the legal status reflects the ontological reality, not the 1397 01:08:08.519 --> 01:08:09.119 other way around. 1398 01:08:09.239 --> 01:08:14.960 The legal status reflects the ontological reality. View. So it's 1399 01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:15.480 and both. 1400 01:08:16.600 --> 01:08:18.159 What I'm saying is that it has to be the 1401 01:08:18.199 --> 01:08:21.520 two together. You could never have a situation where I'm 1402 01:08:21.560 --> 01:08:24.800 filthy rags, but God sees and declares me righteous. That 1403 01:08:24.840 --> 01:08:27.000 would make God a liar. That's our point. 1404 01:08:27.880 --> 01:08:30.000 Well, it's because of the blood, the blood of Jesus 1405 01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:31.640 in a sacrifice in the atonement that happens. 1406 01:08:31.960 --> 01:08:34.520 Then I have to ontologically be righteous. 1407 01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:36.520 Well, I think you you have a heart shift and 1408 01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:38.720 a desire that's an inside out change. So one has 1409 01:08:38.760 --> 01:08:43.479 a ontological change of heart because of being justified before 1410 01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:44.399 the scriptures. 1411 01:08:44.439 --> 01:08:45.079 Right, but the. 1412 01:08:45.079 --> 01:08:47.600 Change in you has nothing to do with your justification. 1413 01:08:48.079 --> 01:08:52.359 That's an effect of justification in classical Protestantism. The change 1414 01:08:52.359 --> 01:08:53.359 in you, say that one more. 1415 01:08:53.199 --> 01:08:56.800 Time, the new heart, the change that occurs in you, yes, 1416 01:08:56.840 --> 01:09:00.640 in classical Protestants, whether Calvin or Luther, is not anything 1417 01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:03.079 to do with your justification. It's an effect of the 1418 01:09:03.159 --> 01:09:06.680 justification that Christ wrow. Okay, and I'm saying, no, that's 1419 01:09:06.720 --> 01:09:07.399 not possible. 1420 01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:12.000 You cannot divorce the legal status of being righteous or 1421 01:09:12.159 --> 01:09:15.760 just from the ontological reality. But the Protestant position requires 1422 01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:19.800 that to have imputator imputational righteousness, and the ancient medieval 1423 01:09:19.840 --> 01:09:23.960 world were not nominalists, so nobody believed in a purely 1424 01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:26.760 imputational legal status. It doesn't exist in the ancient world. 1425 01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:31.319 By you know, Alsterir McGrath is the famous Protestant. So 1426 01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:34.159 he wrote a book called Eustacia Day, and it's about 1427 01:09:34.159 --> 01:09:39.000 this point that through his research as an Anglican, he 1428 01:09:39.039 --> 01:09:41.800 came to the position that he could not find in 1429 01:09:41.840 --> 01:09:46.000 the ancient medieval world a position that justifies a purely 1430 01:09:46.279 --> 01:09:50.319 legal status, which is what is required for the Luther Calvin, 1431 01:09:50.359 --> 01:09:53.319 classical Protestant position, because they didn't believe in the ancient world. 1432 01:09:53.439 --> 01:09:57.319 You didn't have Bile and Okham yet, who proposed the 1433 01:09:57.359 --> 01:10:00.560 divorce between the ontological reality and the naming of a 1434 01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:03.159 thing that has to happen first before Lutheran Kellen. 1435 01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:05.159 And so what you're saying is in the ontological reality 1436 01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:08.000 there has to be works to prove the justification. 1437 01:10:08.079 --> 01:10:09.039 Is that what you're kind of getting at. 1438 01:10:09.159 --> 01:10:13.479 For us, there's no difference between justification, scientification glorification. That's 1439 01:10:13.479 --> 01:10:16.680 why Paul and Stay three says that in this life 1440 01:10:16.960 --> 01:10:21.920 you can experience glorification. So it's not it's not a stage. 1441 01:10:22.039 --> 01:10:24.800 Is like the Protestant Orto Salutas sets up, well, I. 1442 01:10:24.800 --> 01:10:27.159 Don't know if it's in stages, and it is in 1443 01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:29.399 the in the well. Again, I'm not I'm not trying 1444 01:10:29.439 --> 01:10:31.960 to be a Protestant position. 1445 01:10:32.039 --> 01:10:34.319 I like the Classical Reformation. Sure, sure, I'm looking. 1446 01:10:34.359 --> 01:10:36.720 I'm just trying to look at the scriptures, and I'm saying, man, 1447 01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:39.119 it sure does seem like there's a consistent declaration of 1448 01:10:39.239 --> 01:10:43.359 justification over the believer. And that let me in that 1449 01:10:43.399 --> 01:10:47.000 they don't they don't have to walk on eggshells. They 1450 01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:48.800 don't have to have the dread on if I'm going 1451 01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:50.760 to heaven or not, if I'm producing enough works or not, 1452 01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:54.479 that they are justified, and that anyone that's justified, anyone 1453 01:10:54.479 --> 01:10:57.479 that is now a child of God, should and will 1454 01:10:57.520 --> 01:11:00.479 act accordingly if my son is my son, he's my 1455 01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:03.520 son and acts accordingly. Even if he messes up, he 1456 01:11:03.560 --> 01:11:06.399 still remains my son, right, And so that's what I'm 1457 01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:09.039 getting at now. He's also obedient, and he also produces 1458 01:11:09.079 --> 01:11:11.439 good works, but the good works that he produces aren't 1459 01:11:11.439 --> 01:11:13.159 what make him ontologically my son. 1460 01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:18.279 What makes him the son, or what makes a person 1461 01:11:18.359 --> 01:11:21.760 the son is baptism. We believe baptism is where we 1462 01:11:21.800 --> 01:11:24.239 were regenerated. It doesn't mean that if you die in 1463 01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:26.039 the way of your baptism that you're not saying Because 1464 01:11:26.039 --> 01:11:29.039 we've always seen catechumans that die or whatever, they're considered 1465 01:11:29.079 --> 01:11:30.359 part of the church. Some of them are martyrs and 1466 01:11:30.399 --> 01:11:34.119 saints in the Orthodox Church. So sonship is in the 1467 01:11:34.159 --> 01:11:37.760 scriptures connected to being baptized into Christ. So every time, 1468 01:11:37.960 --> 01:11:40.479 like in the Book of Romans, when you're baptized into Christ, 1469 01:11:40.600 --> 01:11:44.760 right that for us, there's no reason to divorce that 1470 01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:47.720 from the actual sacrament and ritual baptism. And that's what 1471 01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:52.279 the church fathers all teach. Likewise, the warnings about apostasy 1472 01:11:52.560 --> 01:11:55.199 are real warnings. So you can cease to be a son, 1473 01:11:55.279 --> 01:11:58.359 you can taste of the heavenly gift you can be enlightened. 1474 01:11:58.399 --> 01:12:01.640 We think that's an ancient term for Baptist right being washed. 1475 01:12:01.680 --> 01:12:04.159 Hebrew six right, the parable the soer new life can 1476 01:12:04.199 --> 01:12:06.439 spring up and it gets withered out and died. So 1477 01:12:06.520 --> 01:12:10.119 we think those those warnings are real warnings too, being 1478 01:12:10.239 --> 01:12:13.399 in the covenant and removing yourself from the Covenant, because 1479 01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:16.600 in every one of God's covenants, whether it's a Damic 1480 01:12:16.760 --> 01:12:20.840 or whether it's a Bramic, there's sanctions and penalty is 1481 01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:24.159 sure for leaving and defiling the covenant. 1482 01:12:24.199 --> 01:12:26.239 Sure, but wouldn't that be going back to like content 1483 01:12:26.319 --> 01:12:29.159 and a desire to leave said covenant, not a hey, 1484 01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:32.560 I messed up, I fell short, I sinned in a 1485 01:12:32.600 --> 01:12:34.119 way I don't. I don't think you guys have the 1486 01:12:34.159 --> 01:12:37.199 same like grave sin, mortal sin, not mortal sin, but 1487 01:12:37.279 --> 01:12:39.680 like you can apostatize. Because Hebrew six is saying, if 1488 01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:43.199 you leave Christianity go back to Judaism, you are also. 1489 01:12:43.399 --> 01:12:45.880 I don't really care to the apostasy thing. I don't. 1490 01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:47.359 That's a that's a whole separate conversation. 1491 01:12:47.439 --> 01:12:50.439 No, it's not, though, because it shows that justification cannot 1492 01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:52.720 be purely legal or imputational. There has to be an 1493 01:12:52.720 --> 01:12:56.119 ontological reality connected to justification itself works. 1494 01:12:55.840 --> 01:12:57.600 And you're in and that that looks like works and 1495 01:12:57.800 --> 01:13:00.600 well sacraments that I would categorize as works affair. 1496 01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:02.800 Well Jesus as for example, that faith is a work. 1497 01:13:02.920 --> 01:13:04.359 This is the work of God that you believe in 1498 01:13:04.399 --> 01:13:06.479 him and me has sent. So faith is a work 1499 01:13:06.600 --> 01:13:09.760 in our view, okay, And so likewise, I think Calvinists 1500 01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:11.840 also believe faith is a work. That's interesting because they 1501 01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:15.640 believe regeneration precedes faith. You first have to be born 1502 01:13:15.680 --> 01:13:16.520 again to have faith. 1503 01:13:16.520 --> 01:13:17.960 And they see faith, but they would say it's an 1504 01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:19.640 effect of regeneration. Huh. 1505 01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:22.920 And that even the faith that you have isn't the 1506 01:13:22.960 --> 01:13:26.600 basis for the justification, it's an effective justification Calvinist game. 1507 01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:32.680 Do you think this view where someone is only justified 1508 01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:36.079 if they're ontologically justified, meaning that it's all one long process, 1509 01:13:36.680 --> 01:13:39.159 do you think that it creates a I'm not sure. 1510 01:13:39.159 --> 01:13:41.159 I'm trying to say this in a way that is 1511 01:13:41.199 --> 01:13:48.439 not disparaging, A paranoia about one's eternal state, a walking 1512 01:13:48.439 --> 01:13:53.239 on eggshells, a dread of fear and uncertainty that according 1513 01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:54.680 I mean, you could correct me if we're wrong, but 1514 01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:57.880 according to your own soteriology. You can be Eastern Orthodox 1515 01:13:57.920 --> 01:13:59.279 and not go to heaven. Sure you could do all 1516 01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:01.520 the sacraments, and any people invited to the marriage face who 1517 01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:03.680 are throwing out right and so so what I'm getting 1518 01:14:03.720 --> 01:14:05.920 at Jay is that, like it seems like I have 1519 01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:08.319 more confidence in your salvation that you're going to go 1520 01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:11.720 to heaven. Then the position is than you do, Like 1521 01:14:11.800 --> 01:14:15.439 I believe you're justified because you believe in Jesus and 1522 01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:17.319 because of the penalty panel across, Like you're in a 1523 01:14:17.399 --> 01:14:19.760 right standing outside of all of our disagreements theologically, and 1524 01:14:19.800 --> 01:14:22.479 you're not thinking I'm truly saying or whatever, I have 1525 01:14:22.560 --> 01:14:25.279 more confidence in your salvation in the Eastern Orthodox folks 1526 01:14:25.319 --> 01:14:28.439 who follow me than they do. Is it doesn't that 1527 01:14:28.439 --> 01:14:30.479 create a despair? And maybe you will say, well, Rustlin, 1528 01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:33.359 you're just arguing pragmatically. Who cares the truth is the truth? 1529 01:14:33.680 --> 01:14:35.479 But can you see how that people can come to 1530 01:14:35.479 --> 01:14:36.239 that conclusion? Sure? 1531 01:14:36.399 --> 01:14:38.680 I mean I had the same sort of thought process 1532 01:14:38.760 --> 01:14:41.800 when I was first moving from Calvinism to Catholicism. 1533 01:14:41.840 --> 01:14:42.640 I was concerned. 1534 01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:44.920 I'm just not trying to be disparaed, you're condescending, But 1535 01:14:45.399 --> 01:14:48.119 I understand the thought process and where you're coming from. 1536 01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:50.600 And do you do you like is that a healthy 1537 01:14:50.640 --> 01:14:51.680 way to live spiritually? 1538 01:14:51.720 --> 01:14:54.239 If I'm always walking on eggshows and I'm always uncertain 1539 01:14:54.279 --> 01:14:55.680 about if I'm going to go to heaven or not, 1540 01:14:55.880 --> 01:14:58.520 because I got to keep doing stuff, I gotta keep producing. 1541 01:14:58.159 --> 01:15:01.600 Work, well, one thing I would is, I don't think 1542 01:15:01.640 --> 01:15:05.199 any of us actually escapes that question, because most I 1543 01:15:05.199 --> 01:15:07.479 don't know about you, but most Protestants that I've met, 1544 01:15:07.680 --> 01:15:11.199 and even Calvinists, and one most of those people still 1545 01:15:11.239 --> 01:15:15.000 admit the possibility of self deception and psychological tricker your delution. 1546 01:15:15.239 --> 01:15:18.760 You could fool yourself into thinking that you're regenerate or 1547 01:15:18.760 --> 01:15:20.479 that you have assurance of salvation, and it could be 1548 01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:23.880 a deception. So from an existential vantage point, I don't 1549 01:15:23.880 --> 01:15:29.039 think anybody escapes that possible concern or doubt or fear. 1550 01:15:30.359 --> 01:15:33.760 You could theoretically say, well, but I believe in the 1551 01:15:33.800 --> 01:15:36.840 doctrine of assurance of salvation all this kind of stuff, 1552 01:15:36.840 --> 01:15:39.000 and so I bypass that it's not a problem for me, 1553 01:15:39.560 --> 01:15:41.520 And I would just simply say, again, there's so many 1554 01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:43.720 warnings in the New Testament that I think we have 1555 01:15:43.760 --> 01:15:48.439 to take both of or for us, like we would 1556 01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:52.199 say that the purpose of the sacraments is to help 1557 01:15:52.840 --> 01:15:55.800 have that as surety and to have the knowledge that 1558 01:15:55.840 --> 01:15:58.520 we have grace. I don't know that I have, as 1559 01:15:58.520 --> 01:16:02.079 Augustine said, the gift of perseverance to the end. Jesus says, 1560 01:16:02.079 --> 01:16:04.079 he that perseveres to the end will be said. So 1561 01:16:04.119 --> 01:16:06.039 I have to persevere until the end. I don't know 1562 01:16:06.079 --> 01:16:08.600 whether I will, but I do trust that God will 1563 01:16:08.600 --> 01:16:11.479 give me the grace and the means to persevere. So, 1564 01:16:11.880 --> 01:16:13.640 if you want to think of it in Augustinian way, 1565 01:16:13.760 --> 01:16:16.239 I would say I could agree with his position that 1566 01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:19.880 God gives us the means too persevere to the end. 1567 01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:21.920 It is all gifts of grace. But I do have 1568 01:16:22.279 --> 01:16:25.520 a necessity to synergize and be faithful to the covenant. 1569 01:16:25.560 --> 01:16:28.039 Too persevere to the end, I get to get access 1570 01:16:28.079 --> 01:16:30.399 to the means of grace like the sacraments. Sure Jesus says, 1571 01:16:30.399 --> 01:16:32.439 you have to eat my flesh and blood, yes, to 1572 01:16:32.479 --> 01:16:34.600 be saved, and that means those who love me obey 1573 01:16:34.600 --> 01:16:36.600 my own always say in a general sense, we're going. 1574 01:16:36.600 --> 01:16:37.199 To keep doing that. 1575 01:16:37.279 --> 01:16:39.479 Yeah, I guess what I'm what I'm getting at. And 1576 01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:42.239 the some of the folks that I see that are 1577 01:16:42.239 --> 01:16:47.119 coming towards Eastern Orthodoxy, seem to have a crippling fear 1578 01:16:47.159 --> 01:16:50.640 and anxiety around their own salvation. And I think you're 1579 01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:53.439 probably a more seasoned person in the faith where you 1580 01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:56.640 maybe are I don't know, more educated, more nuanced to it. 1581 01:16:56.840 --> 01:17:00.560 Where I'm saying, on a very practical level, I believe 1582 01:17:00.560 --> 01:17:02.960 if someone's placed their faith in Jesus, that they're going 1583 01:17:02.960 --> 01:17:06.319 to heaven and that they're going to produce good works 1584 01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:09.199 because they get to and because God is that good, right, 1585 01:17:09.319 --> 01:17:13.159 like I am with you, continue on, maybe I'm self deceived, 1586 01:17:13.359 --> 01:17:16.479 continue on in the sacraments, continue on working out my salvation, 1587 01:17:16.560 --> 01:17:19.520 continue on producing. But it's not those works that are 1588 01:17:19.560 --> 01:17:22.520 saving me. It's that I get to do works that 1589 01:17:22.600 --> 01:17:25.359 I'm saved. And so it's not it's not a I'm 1590 01:17:25.399 --> 01:17:28.840 not advocating for someone saying that, you know, maybe someone 1591 01:17:28.840 --> 01:17:30.720 can and can anathemize. I'm saying I don't want to 1592 01:17:30.760 --> 01:17:32.640 find out. I don't want to know. God is so 1593 01:17:32.720 --> 01:17:34.359 good to me that I'm gonna keep going to church. 1594 01:17:34.359 --> 01:17:36.640 I'm gonna keep reading my Bible, I'm gonna keep in fellowship, 1595 01:17:36.640 --> 01:17:38.479 I'm gonna keep taking comunity. I'm gonna keep doing those 1596 01:17:38.560 --> 01:17:41.119 things because He's that good that the least thing I 1597 01:17:41.119 --> 01:17:43.079 could do is to offer up my bodies as a 1598 01:17:43.079 --> 01:17:45.760 living sacrifice back onto the. 1599 01:17:46.039 --> 01:17:47.000 Right to Jesus. 1600 01:17:48.159 --> 01:17:50.079 I would say, if you look at Romans four in 1601 01:17:50.119 --> 01:17:53.600 this I'm bringing this up because I noticed that James 1602 01:17:53.600 --> 01:17:57.600 White recently responded to what I'd said about this passage. 1603 01:17:57.640 --> 01:18:00.520 If you look at Romans four, when Paul talks about 1604 01:18:00.560 --> 01:18:04.920 the justification that Abraham underwent, he cites a very specific chapter. 1605 01:18:05.439 --> 01:18:08.680 It's Genesis fifteen. And the problem is that in the 1606 01:18:09.279 --> 01:18:12.119 classical Protestant view, or in the idea of the transition 1607 01:18:12.199 --> 01:18:14.920 from wrath to grace, this is a pretty common Lutheran 1608 01:18:15.560 --> 01:18:20.560 Calvinist idea that at one point we are under God's wrath, 1609 01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:23.920 children of wrath. Then we believe, and there's that transition 1610 01:18:23.960 --> 01:18:26.000 from wrath to grace, right where now we're a friend 1611 01:18:26.039 --> 01:18:27.920 of God. We're no longer under his wrath. He's our father, 1612 01:18:28.039 --> 01:18:32.279 not our judge. Right, Paul, in Romans four, this key 1613 01:18:32.359 --> 01:18:37.680 passage about solafide supposedly does not cite the first chapter 1614 01:18:37.880 --> 01:18:40.560 that's supposed to be and should be if the Calvinist 1615 01:18:41.039 --> 01:18:44.640 classical Protestant reading is correct, of solofide it should be 1616 01:18:44.680 --> 01:18:49.880 Genesis twelve, but he cites Genesis fifteen as where Abraham 1617 01:18:49.880 --> 01:18:52.920 has declared righteous. But Abraham, his son, he's already been 1618 01:18:52.920 --> 01:18:55.840 doing three chapters of good faithful works. Now, when James 1619 01:18:55.880 --> 01:18:59.159 White responded to this, he said, Okay, he bit the 1620 01:18:59.159 --> 01:19:02.239 bullet and was like, Abraham wasn't justified until Genesis fifteen, 1621 01:19:02.840 --> 01:19:05.600 but he's already doing good works that God clearly accepts. 1622 01:19:06.399 --> 01:19:09.159 To me, that's point. That is a clear proof that 1623 01:19:09.640 --> 01:19:12.680 you would have to say Paul made a mistake for 1624 01:19:12.960 --> 01:19:16.199 where he's citing in Genesis for Abraham's transition from rath 1625 01:19:16.199 --> 01:19:19.720 to grace. And if I'm correct, then it's not a 1626 01:19:19.720 --> 01:19:22.239 proof text for Solovietia. It's a proof text that the 1627 01:19:22.359 --> 01:19:26.640 righteousness of God is the actual uncreated energy in you. 1628 01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:27.880 It's not a legal state. 1629 01:19:28.319 --> 01:19:31.199 The uncreated energy that you possess if you're a son 1630 01:19:31.239 --> 01:19:33.720 of God and participating in the divine energies, the Dono 1631 01:19:33.760 --> 01:19:38.199 mess and the Innergeia. That's what leads to the legal state, 1632 01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:41.640 not the legal state. And then that makes you interesting. 1633 01:19:41.720 --> 01:19:45.199 Yeah, I guess I just I see identity in terms 1634 01:19:45.239 --> 01:19:47.960 of who I am in Christ as neither an inside 1635 01:19:48.199 --> 01:19:50.439 or outside in. It's a top down thing, right, So 1636 01:19:50.479 --> 01:19:53.199 like society would tell us that your identity is what 1637 01:19:53.239 --> 01:19:55.520 you're good for from the utilitarian standpoint, right. So, if 1638 01:19:55.560 --> 01:19:57.600 you're in high school, you're an athlete, that's your identity 1639 01:19:57.600 --> 01:20:01.239 you're good for. The outside in contribution you have, right. 1640 01:20:01.439 --> 01:20:05.560 And then now with the crazy transformer stuff, identity is 1641 01:20:05.560 --> 01:20:08.000 subjective to whatever you think it is. It's inside out, 1642 01:20:08.039 --> 01:20:11.239 it's whatever I feel I am, right, Whereas if I'm 1643 01:20:11.239 --> 01:20:14.960 looking at the layout in your reference, you're corrected at 1644 01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:16.319 your raptized into Christ right. 1645 01:20:16.439 --> 01:20:16.600 Right. 1646 01:20:16.640 --> 01:20:21.039 So when we're looking at Romans four, right after this 1647 01:20:21.920 --> 01:20:24.840 he cites to your point Genesis fifteen, and then right 1648 01:20:24.880 --> 01:20:27.960 after that, verse five says, however, the one who, however, 1649 01:20:28.039 --> 01:20:30.359 the one who does not work but trust God, who 1650 01:20:30.479 --> 01:20:33.079 justifies on godly their faith, is credited as right to say. 1651 01:20:33.119 --> 01:20:36.760 This is in the context of Jews in Roman in 1652 01:20:37.039 --> 01:20:41.800 the Church in Rome think that they can be justified 1653 01:20:41.880 --> 01:20:45.000 by also keeping the Mosaic law, and Paul is using 1654 01:20:45.039 --> 01:20:48.920 Abraham as the paradigm example of the first quote Jew. 1655 01:20:49.039 --> 01:20:51.600 Jews think that Abraham was the first Jew, and Abraham 1656 01:20:51.640 --> 01:20:55.520 doesn't have at this point even to Justice fifteen the 1657 01:20:55.560 --> 01:20:58.239 totality of the law or the Mosaic law. Right, So 1658 01:20:58.279 --> 01:21:03.600 Abraham is justified, he's not the it's justice fifteen. It's 1659 01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:06.319 after he was called out of the or of Caldas 1660 01:21:06.359 --> 01:21:11.319 in Genesis twelve. It's after three chapters of good works, right, 1661 01:21:11.840 --> 01:21:14.159 and so it's at this point that Paul says he 1662 01:21:14.279 --> 01:21:16.760 is called the friend of God or right, he's made righteous. 1663 01:21:16.920 --> 01:21:21.359 So there's three separate twelve fifteen, well four, twelve, fifteen, seventeen, 1664 01:21:21.359 --> 01:21:24.960 twenty two. And in all of those interactions between God 1665 01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:29.680 and Abraham, there's not any one place where he's quote saved. 1666 01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:33.720 He's saved in all of these actions, and he's working 1667 01:21:33.840 --> 01:21:38.279 in faith, not according to mosaic law or mosaic standards. 1668 01:21:38.279 --> 01:21:40.840 So Paul's whole point is that righteousness is not contingent 1669 01:21:40.920 --> 01:21:45.000 upon mosaic law. It's contingent upon actually having the uncreated 1670 01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:45.720 grace of God in. 1671 01:21:45.680 --> 01:21:48.720 You, which we would all agree with. Well, I don't. 1672 01:21:48.840 --> 01:21:50.920 I've never heard of a protestably he's an uncreated grace. 1673 01:21:50.960 --> 01:21:53.039 But maybe you do. I don't know. Maybe you're well. 1674 01:21:53.439 --> 01:21:55.600 I'm not being bad, I'm saying like, maybe you're one 1675 01:21:55.600 --> 01:21:57.960 of the first well on created grace. You're talking about 1676 01:21:57.960 --> 01:22:00.119 the dogma's energies, the energy's distinction. Is that would what 1677 01:22:00.159 --> 01:22:00.680 you're meaning. 1678 01:22:00.479 --> 01:22:02.880 By which is an Orthodox reason? Yeah, I'm not. 1679 01:22:03.680 --> 01:22:06.359 No, No, I'm not saying it's a historic Protestant season. You 1680 01:22:06.479 --> 01:22:10.560 keep you're kind of in your arguments here, you're referencing 1681 01:22:10.560 --> 01:22:12.479 a lot of Calvinistic teaching, which I don't really hold 1682 01:22:12.560 --> 01:22:15.279 to Calvinism or any any I'm not a Calvinist, right, 1683 01:22:15.319 --> 01:22:17.359 so I understand what you're saying. I'm so if you 1684 01:22:17.399 --> 01:22:19.479 say something that sounds true, J, I'm gonna say, oh, 1685 01:22:19.479 --> 01:22:22.279 that sounds true J. Whether it's Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant. 1686 01:22:22.359 --> 01:22:29.000 Okay, that's that's me cheating, that's fair. I'm typically in 1687 01:22:29.119 --> 01:22:31.479 my mind because I don't know all of your positions. 1688 01:22:31.680 --> 01:22:34.920 I'm just arguing against what's called classical Protestantism. That would 1689 01:22:34.960 --> 01:22:38.760 be like the confessional Lutherans, the Confessional you know Westminster Confession, 1690 01:22:39.000 --> 01:22:43.640 fair enough, you know sne of Dort, the classic Protestant confessions. 1691 01:22:43.680 --> 01:22:44.159 Uh huh. 1692 01:22:44.199 --> 01:22:47.800 And so from your paradigm, when Paul is writing in 1693 01:22:47.920 --> 01:22:50.720 Romans and he's doubling down on this justified justified by grace, 1694 01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:53.399 justified by faith justified by grace, when it's happening in Galatians, 1695 01:22:53.399 --> 01:22:56.000 when it's happening in other parts of scripture. From your paradigm, 1696 01:22:56.039 --> 01:22:59.680 you would say that's exclusive to the Judaizers and him 1697 01:22:59.720 --> 01:23:02.159 trying to correct their back doing of the law. 1698 01:23:02.279 --> 01:23:05.600 I would say not necessarily exclusive, because a lot of 1699 01:23:05.600 --> 01:23:07.760 the passages are dealing with that, but not all of them. Okay, 1700 01:23:07.800 --> 01:23:09.640 So are there are places where, you know, like in 1701 01:23:09.720 --> 01:23:11.960 Romans two, I think he's talking about gentiles, He's not 1702 01:23:12.039 --> 01:23:12.800 just talking about Jews. 1703 01:23:12.920 --> 01:23:18.000 Sure, yeah, So then in your framework, you would reject 1704 01:23:18.039 --> 01:23:20.399 the idea of a top down identity where one is 1705 01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:23.680 declared righteous, made righteous because of Jesus on the cross, 1706 01:23:23.680 --> 01:23:25.279 because of the work the fulfillment of the law of 1707 01:23:25.319 --> 01:23:28.960 Jesus on across and then from that they then are 1708 01:23:29.119 --> 01:23:32.199 behaving and living differently. You would say that that's a 1709 01:23:33.279 --> 01:23:35.159 heresy or would you just say we're incorrect, Like, where 1710 01:23:35.159 --> 01:23:36.439 would you categorically put that? 1711 01:23:37.520 --> 01:23:39.720 No, I do think that sola fide is a heresy. 1712 01:23:39.800 --> 01:23:41.199 Just in case of my faith, the one is a heresy, 1713 01:23:41.359 --> 01:23:42.039 I would say. 1714 01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:45.640 So, So, so all of these scriptures are. 1715 01:23:47.199 --> 01:23:51.399 Yeah, I guess I'm just having some understanding the presupposition 1716 01:23:52.039 --> 01:23:56.279 is that this is all legal status first and foremost, 1717 01:23:57.000 --> 01:24:00.560 and then anything after that is something else that's sanctification 1718 01:24:00.680 --> 01:24:01.119 or something. 1719 01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:02.279 Like that, cooperating with the Holy Spirit. 1720 01:24:02.439 --> 01:24:04.760 Correct, And what I'm saying is that there is no 1721 01:24:04.840 --> 01:24:07.680 such thing in ancient medieval world, as Alser McGrath admits 1722 01:24:07.720 --> 01:24:12.880 in Ustcia day, as a purely nominal legal standing that 1723 01:24:13.119 --> 01:24:17.520 is not directly connected to or necessitated by the act 1724 01:24:17.840 --> 01:24:21.680 actual ontological reality. So in classical Protestanism it is called 1725 01:24:21.680 --> 01:24:23.720 the ordo salutis the order of salvation. That's what you 1726 01:24:23.720 --> 01:24:26.520 were talking about. We tak about justification, sangication, glorifica. That's 1727 01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:29.600 the order of salvation, we would say. And I'm arguing 1728 01:24:29.640 --> 01:24:37.239 that that's premised on a late medieval philosophical development. That 1729 01:24:37.680 --> 01:24:41.000 this alone shows that Paul could not have taught the 1730 01:24:41.079 --> 01:24:43.920 legal status because nobody in the ancient medieval world was nominalist. 1731 01:24:44.319 --> 01:24:47.560 And if that's true, then these assumptions as to what 1732 01:24:47.600 --> 01:24:48.920 Paul means are wrong. 1733 01:24:49.079 --> 01:24:51.600 Is it possible that there was some drift in the 1734 01:24:51.600 --> 01:24:54.439 ancient medieval world and what Paul taught was closer to 1735 01:24:54.479 --> 01:24:57.279 the Protestant position, and there was drifted in the reformers 1736 01:24:57.279 --> 01:24:59.159 came back who were always reforming and trying to get 1737 01:24:59.199 --> 01:25:00.960 back to a Paul Ta. Could you see that from 1738 01:25:01.039 --> 01:25:02.079 our paradigm at least? 1739 01:25:02.960 --> 01:25:06.520 Uh? Well, no, for various reasons. I wouldn't be able 1740 01:25:06.560 --> 01:25:06.960 to admit that. 1741 01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:09.039 Because I say admit that, I said see it from 1742 01:25:09.039 --> 01:25:10.319 our paradigm. Understand you wouldn't be. 1743 01:25:10.279 --> 01:25:12.119 But I think you could. I understand why you might 1744 01:25:12.159 --> 01:25:12.359 think that. 1745 01:25:12.520 --> 01:25:15.199 Okay, But it would mean that the church didn't understand 1746 01:25:15.199 --> 01:25:17.359 the Gospel for fifteen hundred years, which is what Utia 1747 01:25:17.439 --> 01:25:17.760 Day meant. 1748 01:25:18.560 --> 01:25:20.039 I don't know if they didn't understand the gospel. I 1749 01:25:20.039 --> 01:25:23.319 think perhaps there were some some doctrinal developments bit drift, 1750 01:25:23.680 --> 01:25:25.680 some things that they shift. I'm not one of those 1751 01:25:25.960 --> 01:25:27.960 great there was a great apostacy kind of guys. 1752 01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:28.920 I'm not saying that. 1753 01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:31.439 But it would mean that nobody That's the point of 1754 01:25:31.520 --> 01:25:34.640 Ustechia Day by McGrath is that no one taught Luther 1755 01:25:34.920 --> 01:25:38.479 or the Protestant solo fide until Luther and Calvin. 1756 01:25:38.560 --> 01:25:38.800 Huh. 1757 01:25:38.840 --> 01:25:41.399 But I mean Luther and Calvin are also pulling from Augustine, 1758 01:25:41.439 --> 01:25:44.039 or so they say. But Augustin believes in bachelor regeneration 1759 01:25:44.159 --> 01:25:47.000 and the necessity works. If you read on the Gift 1760 01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:50.279 of perseverance and on operative and cooperative grace, he doesn't believe. 1761 01:25:51.079 --> 01:25:53.279 I guess what I'm getting at is like the we 1762 01:25:53.359 --> 01:25:55.520 believe in works, we just don't believe works or would 1763 01:25:55.560 --> 01:25:57.680 save us. Like I believe we should produce good works. 1764 01:25:57.680 --> 01:25:59.760 This is why I understand that the free Grace community 1765 01:25:59.800 --> 01:26:01.600 gets mad at me, because I'm sure you're familiar with 1766 01:26:01.600 --> 01:26:03.159 the free Grace section, right, So, like, yeah, like I 1767 01:26:03.199 --> 01:26:06.199 would say, no, that that's bad, Like that's scary stuff 1768 01:26:06.199 --> 01:26:08.479 where you could say, like someone can profess Jesus at 1769 01:26:08.479 --> 01:26:10.600 one point in time and then live like the devil 1770 01:26:10.720 --> 01:26:12.560 and even become an enemy of the Gospel and they're 1771 01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:16.039 still saved. I would say, I absolutely reject that. So 1772 01:26:16.079 --> 01:26:18.399 I believe in works, I just don't believe works are 1773 01:26:18.439 --> 01:26:22.000 the things that positionally make us holy. I think great 1774 01:26:22.119 --> 01:26:24.039 works are the things that practically. 1775 01:26:23.520 --> 01:26:24.960 Make us holy. I understand. 1776 01:26:25.079 --> 01:26:28.439 Yeah, So fair enough, Okay, before we wrap, you gotta 1777 01:26:28.479 --> 01:26:31.960 told me tell me about this, uh, toll houses and 1778 01:26:32.079 --> 01:26:32.720 and how does that work? 1779 01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:34.039 You're going to talk about comedy that we're going to 1780 01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:36.640 talk about. We can talk about comedy. Tell me about 1781 01:26:36.640 --> 01:26:37.920 toll houses. And we'll talk about comedy. 1782 01:26:38.680 --> 01:26:43.680 Yeah, so this is a more of a a liturgical, monastic, 1783 01:26:43.920 --> 01:26:47.920 and uh spiritual tradition within the Orthodox world. 1784 01:26:48.159 --> 01:26:51.520 I wouldn't say it's quote dogma because it's not infallible. 1785 01:26:51.560 --> 01:26:52.199 It's not dogma. 1786 01:26:52.319 --> 01:26:56.439 It's more of a lore, a lore. 1787 01:26:56.640 --> 01:26:59.560 I mean, I'm not I'm genuinely like, how we where 1788 01:26:59.560 --> 01:27:00.000 do we category? 1789 01:27:00.079 --> 01:27:03.680 I mean, there's all there are many things within Orthodox 1790 01:27:03.720 --> 01:27:07.680 theology that are not dogma but are part of the tradition. 1791 01:27:07.840 --> 01:27:11.399 For example, I don't know, like, how would you interpret 1792 01:27:11.560 --> 01:27:14.439 you know, Matthew twenty four. There's not a dogma on 1793 01:27:14.600 --> 01:27:16.840 the interpretation of Matthew twenty four. You have a lot 1794 01:27:16.840 --> 01:27:19.319 of theologians and people talking about it in church fathers 1795 01:27:19.319 --> 01:27:21.960 and Christistom, and you know, have sermons and homilies on 1796 01:27:21.960 --> 01:27:24.159 Matthew twenty four or whatever, or you know, how to 1797 01:27:24.199 --> 01:27:26.239 interpret every aspect of the Book of Revelation. Right, There's 1798 01:27:26.600 --> 01:27:31.039 going to be areas of mystical theology that are unclear 1799 01:27:31.640 --> 01:27:35.479 and probably only advanced very advanced people understand some of 1800 01:27:35.520 --> 01:27:39.079 these things. But so this is a part of the 1801 01:27:39.159 --> 01:27:41.840 Orthodox tradition. There's multiple books that have put out on this. 1802 01:27:41.960 --> 01:27:44.520 I think the Greek Orthodox Monastery has a whole book 1803 01:27:44.560 --> 01:27:47.680 about this, The name escapes me, but it's a really big, 1804 01:27:48.560 --> 01:27:51.439 thick book, but a more accessible book, as Father serfrom 1805 01:27:51.479 --> 01:27:52.399 Rose's book. 1806 01:27:54.800 --> 01:27:55.960 Life of the Soul after Death. 1807 01:27:56.479 --> 01:27:58.720 And it's part of our tradition that we think that 1808 01:27:58.800 --> 01:28:00.359 there is a kind of a journey that the soul 1809 01:28:00.439 --> 01:28:04.840 takes after death, that's it's not purgatory, but that there 1810 01:28:04.920 --> 01:28:07.399 is a return to God that does occur. And there 1811 01:28:07.479 --> 01:28:11.399 is substantial liturgical and mystical tradition evidence for this position. 1812 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:15.399 And so you're returning to God and there is it's 1813 01:28:15.479 --> 01:28:20.119 not purgatory. So so Protestants would hold to like to 1814 01:28:20.159 --> 01:28:22.159 be absent from the bodies to be present with the Lord. 1815 01:28:22.439 --> 01:28:25.760 Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's instantaneous, because you have, 1816 01:28:25.800 --> 01:28:29.439 for example, in the Old Testament, when when people died, 1817 01:28:29.520 --> 01:28:32.479 they went to Hades. That's why Christ preached the Gospel to. 1818 01:28:32.520 --> 01:28:33.199 Those in Hades. 1819 01:28:33.199 --> 01:28:36.119 That's the descent into Hades, which, by the way, really 1820 01:28:36.159 --> 01:28:38.039 the Orthodox Church is the only church that continues to 1821 01:28:38.079 --> 01:28:41.000 teach the heroing of Hades, which is ancient tradition. 1822 01:28:41.079 --> 01:28:44.319 But so the soul house is your your your body 1823 01:28:44.359 --> 01:28:46.439 is your body, or your spirit is going to God. 1824 01:28:46.640 --> 01:28:49.319 It's the return of the soul to God prior to 1825 01:28:49.359 --> 01:28:53.359 the resurrection, and so and then and then there's fighting 1826 01:28:53.399 --> 01:28:54.479 happening over your soul. 1827 01:28:54.840 --> 01:28:57.199 Well, there's a sort of a judgment that occurs. It's 1828 01:28:57.199 --> 01:29:00.760 say it's the judgment. Even protest and some times talk 1829 01:29:00.800 --> 01:29:04.880 about this as the thing of the word the immediate judgment, 1830 01:29:04.960 --> 01:29:07.000 which is like prior to the final judgment, the great 1831 01:29:07.000 --> 01:29:10.960 White Throne. So, yeah, we think that probably most people 1832 01:29:11.000 --> 01:29:13.359 assume that when you die, the soul is judged. It's 1833 01:29:13.399 --> 01:29:15.920 just that in this tradition, the toll houses, it's more 1834 01:29:15.960 --> 01:29:19.000 of a flowery sort of you can say, lore, there's 1835 01:29:19.000 --> 01:29:21.319 more of a of an idea that it's not just 1836 01:29:21.720 --> 01:29:24.319 God sitting there and judging you. It's like you also 1837 01:29:24.439 --> 01:29:27.479 have to angels angelic judgments. 1838 01:29:27.520 --> 01:29:30.439 Yeah, and so they're trying to judge you based on 1839 01:29:30.479 --> 01:29:31.920 your works and which works you did and. 1840 01:29:31.880 --> 01:29:35.680 Direct you and that this is partly why we've always 1841 01:29:35.680 --> 01:29:36.319 prayed for the dead. 1842 01:29:36.560 --> 01:29:37.079 Uh huh. 1843 01:29:37.439 --> 01:29:40.199 Interesting, Jay, I'm gonna be honest man here, guys. Is 1844 01:29:40.239 --> 01:29:42.399 like when you describe salvation in that way and then 1845 01:29:42.520 --> 01:29:45.520 with the justification, it just sounds scary to me. Bro 1846 01:29:45.960 --> 01:29:50.039 Like this stuff is like not knowing if someone on 1847 01:29:50.119 --> 01:29:52.479 their deathbed, or not knowing God forbid one of our 1848 01:29:52.479 --> 01:29:54.520 grandparents who made a profession of faith is going to 1849 01:29:54.560 --> 01:29:56.479 be with Jesus because they weren't in the right church 1850 01:29:56.560 --> 01:29:59.800 or because they didn't have enough works. 1851 01:30:00.079 --> 01:30:05.000 Scary view of the afterlife. 1852 01:30:06.039 --> 01:30:08.319 Well, I mean it seems like there's a lot of 1853 01:30:08.319 --> 01:30:10.399 warnings in scripture about so. 1854 01:30:10.439 --> 01:30:12.119 There's a lot of warnings about apostasy and a lot 1855 01:30:12.119 --> 01:30:14.840 of warnings about leaving the faith and that sort of stuff, 1856 01:30:14.920 --> 01:30:18.840 which which I agree with. Yeah, that that that's that's interesting. 1857 01:30:18.840 --> 01:30:24.159 So the toll houses and then you said lore but 1858 01:30:24.279 --> 01:30:27.239 not lore, but I was just I used one of 1859 01:30:27.279 --> 01:30:29.880 the words. So how do you how do you how 1860 01:30:29.880 --> 01:30:34.279 are you able to distinguish between which traditions are infallible 1861 01:30:34.640 --> 01:30:37.239 and which traditions are not infallible? Like how do you 1862 01:30:37.279 --> 01:30:38.239 make that distinguishment? 1863 01:30:38.560 --> 01:30:42.960 I think every person at an individual existential level is 1864 01:30:42.960 --> 01:30:45.399 in the same boat with that. So like I'm not 1865 01:30:45.439 --> 01:30:47.640 going to give like a Roman Catholic type argument where 1866 01:30:47.640 --> 01:30:50.199 they would say, well the pope tells us, right, I 1867 01:30:50.239 --> 01:30:53.399 think you and me were all in the same boat. 1868 01:30:53.680 --> 01:30:55.319 So if I were to ask you about well, how 1869 01:30:55.319 --> 01:30:58.319 do you know what the infallible interpretation of the scriptures is? 1870 01:30:58.760 --> 01:31:00.920 If you ask me what the infallible interpretation of the 1871 01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:03.119 councils and the scriptures is or the Church fathers, Like, 1872 01:31:03.399 --> 01:31:04.560 we're all going to have to at the end of 1873 01:31:04.560 --> 01:31:07.840 the day rely on the testimony the Holy Spirit. So 1874 01:31:08.079 --> 01:31:10.880 where we differ though, would be the means that the 1875 01:31:10.920 --> 01:31:12.960 Holy Spirit uses. So I believe the Holy Spirit is 1876 01:31:12.960 --> 01:31:15.840 going to use not just the scriptures, but the liturgy. 1877 01:31:16.479 --> 01:31:19.279 It's going to use, you know, the tradition of the Church. 1878 01:31:19.319 --> 01:31:20.920 It's going to use the lives of the Saints, the 1879 01:31:20.960 --> 01:31:23.479 teaching the Church fathers. So it's a lot broader in 1880 01:31:23.560 --> 01:31:25.920 terms of like where I'm going to as in be 1881 01:31:26.039 --> 01:31:30.199 getting information as infallible information. Well, it's not all going 1882 01:31:30.239 --> 01:31:32.319 to be infallible, okay, So I'm going to say that 1883 01:31:32.359 --> 01:31:34.920 I have to rely on the tradition of the Church, 1884 01:31:35.359 --> 01:31:40.600 teachings of the councils, lives of the Saints, the the 1885 01:31:40.640 --> 01:31:44.520 liturgy itself. Those are all going to inform my sources 1886 01:31:44.720 --> 01:31:48.239 for where I get infallibility. And so the totality of 1887 01:31:48.279 --> 01:31:52.479 the Apostolic deposit for us all divine revelation, not just 1888 01:31:52.520 --> 01:31:54.840 the written text, but also what Paul and the Apostles 1889 01:31:54.840 --> 01:31:55.640 taught orally. 1890 01:31:56.159 --> 01:31:58.600 Which which you guys believe has been passed down orally, 1891 01:31:59.279 --> 01:32:02.479 for example, how to worship God. There's no New Testament 1892 01:32:02.600 --> 01:32:05.479 pattern of worship. There's things that Paul warns about, but 1893 01:32:05.520 --> 01:32:07.119 you don't get an actual liturgical service. 1894 01:32:07.279 --> 01:32:10.520 Well, thankfully, the Apostles actually did leave that. Many Protestants 1895 01:32:10.600 --> 01:32:16.760 admit that there's ancient liturgical apostologics like the Decay. No, 1896 01:32:16.880 --> 01:32:19.119 I'm talking about the actual apostolic like if you go 1897 01:32:19.199 --> 01:32:20.960 to the one of the oldest liturgies as the Lilergy 1898 01:32:20.960 --> 01:32:24.720 of Saint Mark. So if you go to Alexandria, that's 1899 01:32:24.800 --> 01:32:28.479 believed to be the ancient liturgy that Mark delivered. And 1900 01:32:28.520 --> 01:32:31.399 my point is that if you look at the Viticus eleven, 1901 01:32:31.600 --> 01:32:34.399 like native and Abaye who like worship is very important? 1902 01:32:34.880 --> 01:32:35.039 Right? 1903 01:32:35.079 --> 01:32:38.000 God kills people for not worshiping the right way. In Corinthians, 1904 01:32:38.000 --> 01:32:41.560 if you eat unworthily the Lord's supper, many are sick 1905 01:32:41.560 --> 01:32:44.800 and dead among you, right, So it would seem like 1906 01:32:45.720 --> 01:32:49.439 the pattern of worship itself is very important. The New 1907 01:32:49.479 --> 01:32:51.119 Testament doesn't give us a liturgy. 1908 01:32:51.199 --> 01:32:54.920 Are you guys following Mark's liturgy. That's one example in 1909 01:32:54.920 --> 01:32:57.239 an Apostolic see, so what do you get these. 1910 01:32:57.079 --> 01:32:59.279 Liturgy, these oral liturgies. 1911 01:32:58.880 --> 01:33:01.279 They're saying, they're not world they're written down and say 1912 01:33:01.359 --> 01:33:06.000 by necessity they have to be extra canonical and Apostolic 1913 01:33:06.079 --> 01:33:08.239 in their origin. That's why I can go read if 1914 01:33:08.319 --> 01:33:11.520 Apostolic church fathers like Justin Martyr and they described the liturgy. 1915 01:33:11.600 --> 01:33:13.880 He describes the liturgy in his day. So there was 1916 01:33:13.920 --> 01:33:19.319 some Apostolic liturgical tradition that Protestant scholars like Hugh Weybrew 1917 01:33:19.640 --> 01:33:22.720 admit were handed down by the Apostles. So they're not 1918 01:33:22.760 --> 01:33:27.399 in the Bible because they're by definition liturgical texts that 1919 01:33:28.359 --> 01:33:31.000 are the context for the Bible. For us, the Bible 1920 01:33:31.159 --> 01:33:34.880 was not a private devotional book. Mainly it can be that, 1921 01:33:35.319 --> 01:33:38.359 but it's mainly meant to be heard and sung in 1922 01:33:38.399 --> 01:33:41.279 the liturgy. That's the context of the Bible. So for us, 1923 01:33:41.680 --> 01:33:45.239 that's why liturgy was important in determining the canon itself. 1924 01:33:45.520 --> 01:33:48.239 The electionaries had a huge role in the canonicity of 1925 01:33:48.239 --> 01:33:51.119 the scriptures. Okay, So liturgy is actually the context for 1926 01:33:51.159 --> 01:33:52.680 the scriptures, not the other way around. 1927 01:33:53.000 --> 01:33:58.239 Interesting, okay, And so these things that are passed down 1928 01:33:58.399 --> 01:34:01.880 give you guidance on how to do his service, like 1929 01:34:01.920 --> 01:34:03.399 how to do the liturgy on a Sunday morning. 1930 01:34:04.119 --> 01:34:09.359 You think the Apostles laid down the structure of liturgical services. 1931 01:34:09.359 --> 01:34:11.800 And that's why whether you go to Alexandria, or whether 1932 01:34:11.840 --> 01:34:14.399 you go to Rome the ancient Roman liturgy, or whether 1933 01:34:14.479 --> 01:34:18.479 you go to constantin Noble Byzantium, all of these in 1934 01:34:18.560 --> 01:34:22.039 their origin are Apostolic. It doesn't mean that I have 1935 01:34:23.079 --> 01:34:26.359 the copy of like when Paul went to Ephesus and 1936 01:34:26.399 --> 01:34:28.600 he said, here's how you do the liturgy on We don't. 1937 01:34:28.600 --> 01:34:31.479 Nobody has those texts, just like we don't have AUTOGRAPHA 1938 01:34:31.479 --> 01:34:35.359 of Paul's letters to Timothy. So we're trusting that the 1939 01:34:35.479 --> 01:34:38.920 Church preserved not just the text of scripture, the tradition, 1940 01:34:39.000 --> 01:34:41.880 but also the liturgical pattern of worship. And even the 1941 01:34:41.880 --> 01:34:45.279 Protestant scholars will admit that, Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with that. 1942 01:34:45.840 --> 01:34:48.640 I'm asking, how does then one know if those are 1943 01:34:49.079 --> 01:34:52.239 what sources I guess are infallible versus not infallible. 1944 01:34:52.279 --> 01:34:56.760 There is not an Protestant or a Roman Catholic list 1945 01:34:57.000 --> 01:34:59.840 of the things, and I'm arguing that no one has 1946 01:34:59.880 --> 01:35:02.960 the We're all in the same boat that I would 1947 01:35:02.960 --> 01:35:05.680 have to go to an Orthodox church, live it and 1948 01:35:05.720 --> 01:35:09.479 be imbibed in it to have a sense of what 1949 01:35:09.520 --> 01:35:12.399 the infallible versus the non infallible traditional there's no other. 1950 01:35:12.600 --> 01:35:15.680 There's not like just like if you ask a romancality, 1951 01:35:15.680 --> 01:35:19.119 for example, like what is the infallible lists of the 1952 01:35:19.119 --> 01:35:20.079 infallible dogmas? 1953 01:35:20.239 --> 01:35:20.760 There is one? 1954 01:35:21.520 --> 01:35:23.479 Right, So if you ask an Orthodox person, what is 1955 01:35:23.479 --> 01:35:25.159 the infallible list of Orthodox dogmas? 1956 01:35:25.159 --> 01:35:28.680 There's not one? But fair enough, so no one has that, No, no, 1957 01:35:28.439 --> 01:35:31.159 I know, And thus I don't make that really a 1958 01:35:31.239 --> 01:35:32.479 key line of argumentation. 1959 01:35:32.720 --> 01:35:34.439 Yeah, okay, I mean I think I think that the 1960 01:35:34.640 --> 01:35:36.640 tricky part with that then is it does seem that 1961 01:35:36.640 --> 01:35:39.960 that can also be a bit subjective to experience, right. 1962 01:35:40.760 --> 01:35:43.520 It's but it's problem, But it's not, it's and I 1963 01:35:43.560 --> 01:35:45.960 would agree, like we have, there's no way to avoid 1964 01:35:46.279 --> 01:35:47.079 some degree. 1965 01:35:47.159 --> 01:35:49.560 Some degree of being subjective to our experience. 1966 01:35:49.600 --> 01:35:52.760 But well, something can be partly subjective and also objective. 1967 01:35:52.840 --> 01:35:54.039 It's not sure, it doesn't have to be either. 1968 01:35:54.119 --> 01:35:55.439 Or let me bounce this off of you. How do 1969 01:35:55.439 --> 01:35:59.159 you feel about the wesley In quadrilateral? What the Wesleyan quadrilateral. 1970 01:35:59.159 --> 01:35:59.760 I'm not familiar. 1971 01:35:59.760 --> 01:36:03.520 Okay, So the western quadrilateral is how does one come 1972 01:36:03.560 --> 01:36:05.199 to conclusions of what is true? 1973 01:36:05.439 --> 01:36:05.600 Right? 1974 01:36:05.640 --> 01:36:13.039 What is reasonable? The West end quadrilateral is the idea 1975 01:36:13.159 --> 01:36:15.760 that we're filtering. And I'm not a wrestling for the record, 1976 01:36:15.760 --> 01:36:16.920 but I like this. I think, like when it comes 1977 01:36:16.920 --> 01:36:19.039 to pestemology, this just makes the most amount of sense 1978 01:36:19.079 --> 01:36:29.920 to me. Scripture, church, tradition, experience, and reasoning. So we 1979 01:36:30.039 --> 01:36:32.840 use all four sure scripture being the only infallible one, 1980 01:36:33.199 --> 01:36:37.079 right because in my circles charismatics, God told me this, 1981 01:36:37.199 --> 01:36:38.720 God gave me a word, God gave me a vision. 1982 01:36:38.720 --> 01:36:39.880 Well it's like, well, no, God's not going to give 1983 01:36:39.880 --> 01:36:42.920 you something that's going to contradict scripture. So your experience 1984 01:36:42.960 --> 01:36:46.600 has to submit to scripture. Scripture is the only infallible authority. 1985 01:36:46.680 --> 01:36:49.479 But we also believe that there's a lot of amazing 1986 01:36:49.520 --> 01:36:53.159 authorities in church history. There's amazing authorities within our local churches. 1987 01:36:53.199 --> 01:36:56.239 My pastor has authority, he's just not an infallible authority. 1988 01:36:56.600 --> 01:36:59.640 And then also reasoning and using your mind and logic 1989 01:36:59.680 --> 01:37:01.119 and all to all the things that I think God 1990 01:37:01.119 --> 01:37:04.119 also created. From your perspective, like what do you what 1991 01:37:04.119 --> 01:37:06.239 do you think of that the Western Quadrilateral as a 1992 01:37:07.039 --> 01:37:09.159 system of how I personally do my best to come 1993 01:37:09.199 --> 01:37:09.840 to truth. 1994 01:37:09.960 --> 01:37:10.079 Right. 1995 01:37:10.119 --> 01:37:12.600 This is my this is how my epistemology works, like 1996 01:37:12.720 --> 01:37:14.680 I think of those four categories. 1997 01:37:14.680 --> 01:37:17.600 So I would argue that scripture itself, especially in Paul's 1998 01:37:17.600 --> 01:37:21.479 epistles or even when Peter's talking. Paul says that he 1999 01:37:21.560 --> 01:37:23.720 taught for three days and three nights or two me 2000 01:37:23.720 --> 01:37:26.319 three years, three three years, day and night in Ephesus, 2001 01:37:26.359 --> 01:37:29.159 and he tells Timothy and the epistles to Timothy that 2002 01:37:29.239 --> 01:37:30.720 everything that you heard from me, in the presence of 2003 01:37:30.720 --> 01:37:33.560 many witnesses, passed that on to men after you. He 2004 01:37:33.600 --> 01:37:36.600 only wrote Timothy two letters that we know of at Ephysis, 2005 01:37:36.600 --> 01:37:39.600 but he taught there early, so there's a three year 2006 01:37:39.880 --> 01:37:45.439 Pauline katechisis tradition that Timothy hears. Timothy is instructed to 2007 01:37:45.840 --> 01:37:49.520 lay hands on men after him who are of good testimony, 2008 01:37:49.600 --> 01:37:51.920 because the giving of the Holy Spirit is transferred in 2009 01:37:51.960 --> 01:37:54.520 the laying on of hands. Paul says, that's abslot succession. 2010 01:37:54.560 --> 01:37:57.760 And to my knowledge, there's no Protestant group or denomination 2011 01:37:57.960 --> 01:38:00.399 at all that believes that the Holy Spirit is transferred 2012 01:38:00.399 --> 01:38:01.800 in the laying on of hands. So for us, that's 2013 01:38:01.800 --> 01:38:05.159 a very important apostolic succession. Say that what we're saying, 2014 01:38:05.439 --> 01:38:08.680 there are no Protestant churches that teach that there's a 2015 01:38:08.800 --> 01:38:12.640 sacrament of apostolic succession through the laying out of hands. 2016 01:38:12.680 --> 01:38:15.560 That's a historical succession. Okay, okay, I mean we believe 2017 01:38:15.560 --> 01:38:17.560 on laying on of the hands, and I will say 2018 01:38:17.680 --> 01:38:25.439 all is laying down a historical reality. Telling Timothy in Ephesis, 2019 01:38:25.760 --> 01:38:28.159 you are the appointed authority, not all these other people. 2020 01:38:28.399 --> 01:38:32.159 I lay hands on you. You lay hands on good men. 2021 01:38:32.319 --> 01:38:35.159 Be careful who you choose, because the Holy Spirit is 2022 01:38:35.159 --> 01:38:37.279 passed on in that laying out of hands. So when 2023 01:38:37.319 --> 01:38:41.319 you go to Ephesus, there are still today Orthodox churches 2024 01:38:41.359 --> 01:38:43.520 that have that same descent all the way back to 2025 01:38:43.560 --> 01:38:44.399 Timoth to Timothy. 2026 01:38:44.439 --> 01:38:47.079 Correct, that's what we're we think it's a historical reality, 2027 01:38:47.399 --> 01:38:50.399 not a thing that died. Jesus says that in the 2028 01:38:50.439 --> 01:38:51.920 Book of John, we was talking about the promise the 2029 01:38:51.920 --> 01:38:53.960 Holy Spirit. He says, I'll be with you until the 2030 01:38:54.000 --> 01:38:55.439 end of days. I will not leave you. I will 2031 01:38:55.560 --> 01:38:56.960 the Spirit will lead you, and God you in all truth. 2032 01:38:57.039 --> 01:39:00.479 So for us, the idea that the collective church in 2033 01:39:00.600 --> 01:39:04.199 history could lose that, lose the Gospel, lose any of that. 2034 01:39:04.439 --> 01:39:07.159 On a collective sense, you can have individual churches or 2035 01:39:07.239 --> 01:39:10.000 nations fall away revelation to and the rewards of that. 2036 01:39:10.039 --> 01:39:12.640 I will take your lambstand sure, But the totality of 2037 01:39:12.640 --> 01:39:15.079 the church could never fall away. The gates fell can't prevail, 2038 01:39:15.600 --> 01:39:17.560 So for us, it would not be possible for that 2039 01:39:17.640 --> 01:39:22.840 succession to die or to fail. And that's why, whether 2040 01:39:22.880 --> 01:39:25.359 it's the pre Nicene fathers or all the fathers in 2041 01:39:25.399 --> 01:39:27.840 those councils, they're teaching the same doctions san theology. Each 2042 01:39:27.880 --> 01:39:30.439 council refers back to the previous councils. 2043 01:39:30.560 --> 01:39:32.600 I get that, But is it in your view that 2044 01:39:32.800 --> 01:39:36.199 the Apostolic succession is it a part of the other 2045 01:39:36.279 --> 01:39:37.840 churches that claim to be the one and true Church? 2046 01:39:38.600 --> 01:39:42.199 Well, you can stop. What do you mean? Catholics have 2047 01:39:42.239 --> 01:39:44.880 apostolic succession, so if you leave the church, you don't 2048 01:39:44.920 --> 01:39:45.960 have episoltic succession. 2049 01:39:45.960 --> 01:39:49.039 In the Orthodox view, it's not a mechanical thing that 2050 01:39:49.680 --> 01:39:52.680 exists apart from having the faith. So for example, an 2051 01:39:52.680 --> 01:39:56.039 Athenasius he writes festal letters and he says, everyone who 2052 01:39:56.119 --> 01:40:00.920 celebrates the feast talking about pasca outside the yeah, he says, 2053 01:40:00.960 --> 01:40:01.640 it's not a feast. 2054 01:40:01.720 --> 01:40:02.239 They don't have it. 2055 01:40:02.319 --> 01:40:04.119 I guess I guess all I'm saying what I was 2056 01:40:04.159 --> 01:40:07.520 getting at is and this is you guys will well, 2057 01:40:07.960 --> 01:40:09.520 you guys sort this out much better than I can. 2058 01:40:09.600 --> 01:40:11.920 Is like, from their vantage point, they don't feel like 2059 01:40:11.920 --> 01:40:14.600 they left the church. The other seven churches. 2060 01:40:14.239 --> 01:40:15.880 Don't everything to do with whether they did or didn't. 2061 01:40:16.079 --> 01:40:18.760 Like the fact that they feel that way. That's a fallacy, right, 2062 01:40:18.840 --> 01:40:21.039 so I could So that'd be like saying that, well, 2063 01:40:21.039 --> 01:40:23.479 a lot of people don't believe in the arguments for 2064 01:40:23.520 --> 01:40:24.920 God's existence are convincing, So. 2065 01:40:25.880 --> 01:40:27.159 That's that's not what I mean. I mean. 2066 01:40:27.159 --> 01:40:29.560 I'm saying, I'm sure if we sat down with the 2067 01:40:29.640 --> 01:40:33.000 leading Catholic apologists, the leading Oriental Wealth apologists, they would 2068 01:40:33.039 --> 01:40:35.640 have their own systematic theology and they would make their 2069 01:40:35.680 --> 01:40:37.960 own arguments for it, and those two would. 2070 01:40:37.720 --> 01:40:40.079 Probably nothing to do with which positions correct or not. 2071 01:40:40.479 --> 01:40:42.560 It doesn't, but but it does seem like there's there 2072 01:40:42.560 --> 01:40:45.560 seems to be a degree of subjectivity to concluding which 2073 01:40:45.600 --> 01:40:46.279 is the one true church. 2074 01:40:46.279 --> 01:40:48.760 The fact that a person makes an argument that comes 2075 01:40:48.760 --> 01:40:51.279 from them does not mean that it's purely subjective. 2076 01:40:51.479 --> 01:40:53.199 That's that's an epistemic mistake. 2077 01:40:53.680 --> 01:40:55.880 So every one of us makes an argument and they 2078 01:40:55.880 --> 01:40:59.039 come from a subjective person, that doesn't mean that subjectivism 2079 01:40:59.119 --> 01:40:59.800 is the case. 2080 01:40:59.800 --> 01:41:03.119 Right, I make that claim. I'm saying that if you 2081 01:41:03.199 --> 01:41:05.600 have great arguments, and they have great arguments, and they're 2082 01:41:05.680 --> 01:41:08.880 using the rules of logic, and they're using history, and 2083 01:41:08.920 --> 01:41:11.119 they could point to their sources, they can make the 2084 01:41:11.119 --> 01:41:13.640 same arguments, right, which I don't. I'm not trying to 2085 01:41:13.720 --> 01:41:15.640 just don't buy that. I mean, I understand why you 2086 01:41:15.720 --> 01:41:16.840 don't by that, because you know. 2087 01:41:17.439 --> 01:41:19.319 I mean, you have the same type of position that 2088 01:41:19.680 --> 01:41:22.840 you have a take, and you don't agree with my take, 2089 01:41:23.279 --> 01:41:25.119 and so you have sources, and so that would just 2090 01:41:25.279 --> 01:41:27.560 be relativizing all argumentation, all positions. 2091 01:41:28.239 --> 01:41:30.920 So again, Jay, and my take, I think there's a 2092 01:41:31.119 --> 01:41:34.199 capital C bigger church which you would disagree with, and 2093 01:41:34.239 --> 01:41:36.920 I think in that capital CE all believers everywhere from 2094 01:41:36.960 --> 01:41:38.479 all denominations are part of that capital. 2095 01:41:38.600 --> 01:41:38.760 I know. 2096 01:41:38.760 --> 01:41:41.600 I'm just pointing out that the argument that you're making 2097 01:41:41.880 --> 01:41:43.680 violates the very thing that you. 2098 01:41:43.560 --> 01:41:46.720 Just said would relativize the positions. The argument that I'm 2099 01:41:46.760 --> 01:41:47.760 making right now, Your. 2100 01:41:47.720 --> 01:41:50.359 Argument is no different than anyone else's argument you're citing. 2101 01:41:50.359 --> 01:41:52.880 You're saying I have this position, they have that position, 2102 01:41:52.960 --> 01:41:55.119 you have your position. Yeah, of course, but that has 2103 01:41:55.159 --> 01:41:57.239 nothing to do with which ones tru or false. Okay, 2104 01:41:57.319 --> 01:42:01.720 so what you were arguing doesn't pertain too whether or 2105 01:42:01.800 --> 01:42:04.279 not the Catholic Church or the Orthodour Church is correct. 2106 01:42:04.800 --> 01:42:06.359 You're just saying that, well, they have arguments. 2107 01:42:06.840 --> 01:42:09.720 Yeah, I'm saying I've heard compelling arguments from all sides, 2108 01:42:09.720 --> 01:42:12.039 that's all I'm saying. And I'm saying, I've heard you 2109 01:42:12.079 --> 01:42:14.640 make great arguments that I've heard Catholics make. I've heard 2110 01:42:14.880 --> 01:42:16.560 the reason make good arguments. I've heard a lot of 2111 01:42:16.840 --> 01:42:17.279 that's foul. 2112 01:42:17.399 --> 01:42:19.680 It's called a psychological report. That's a fallacy. 2113 01:42:20.159 --> 01:42:22.560 Why is it a fallacy because I've heard good arguments 2114 01:42:22.600 --> 01:42:24.800 and I say, hey, you guys all got great arguments. 2115 01:42:24.399 --> 01:42:31.159 Your cycle, it's called psychological reports, felas. I'm genuinely It's 2116 01:42:31.159 --> 01:42:33.239 still like when I debate Matt Delahuney and he says, 2117 01:42:33.439 --> 01:42:36.000 I've heard all your arguments, I don't find them convincing. 2118 01:42:37.319 --> 01:42:41.640 It's called psychological reporting, which is not relevant to the debate. 2119 01:42:41.920 --> 01:42:44.119 The fact that you don't find it convincing has nothing 2120 01:42:44.159 --> 01:42:46.960 to do with the topic at hand. 2121 01:42:47.039 --> 01:42:49.159 Yeah, I don't think I said I don't find it convincing. 2122 01:42:49.199 --> 01:42:50.319 I think you're very convincing. 2123 01:42:50.439 --> 01:42:50.640 Jay. 2124 01:42:50.880 --> 01:42:53.239 No, you say no, I'm saying I've heard great arguments 2125 01:42:53.279 --> 01:42:55.119 from from all these streams, not all. 2126 01:42:55.199 --> 01:42:55.840 That's the equivalent. 2127 01:42:55.840 --> 01:42:58.800 It's just saying that they think their arguments are convincing. 2128 01:42:59.039 --> 01:43:01.319 You think this is convinced, saying I think my position 2129 01:43:01.319 --> 01:43:05.760 it's the same principle. It's a psychological report, and it's 2130 01:43:05.760 --> 01:43:06.760 just it's a fallacy. 2131 01:43:07.199 --> 01:43:08.520 I'm not trying to be a douce. She just is 2132 01:43:08.560 --> 01:43:09.039 a fallacy. 2133 01:43:09.119 --> 01:43:13.279 What I'm saying is I'm hearing truth claims made by 2134 01:43:13.920 --> 01:43:16.000 all of these different churches that are all making very 2135 01:43:16.000 --> 01:43:16.920 similar claims to you. 2136 01:43:17.079 --> 01:43:20.079 But that's not an argument. It's a fallacy. Okay. 2137 01:43:20.319 --> 01:43:22.640 So I'm not even trying to argue with you. I'm 2138 01:43:22.640 --> 01:43:25.439 just giving you my paradig I'm saying for my paradigm, Jay, 2139 01:43:25.479 --> 01:43:27.079 I'm looking around. I'm saying, man, there's a lot of 2140 01:43:27.079 --> 01:43:29.640 these churches that are all claiming the same thing you're claiming. 2141 01:43:30.079 --> 01:43:33.640 And it seems like I have the average person that's 2142 01:43:33.640 --> 01:43:36.119 trying to find a church that's apostolic and is the 2143 01:43:36.159 --> 01:43:40.399 one true Church, has a mountain of evidence to go 2144 01:43:40.479 --> 01:43:42.720 through and a lot of thinking to do. And when 2145 01:43:42.720 --> 01:43:45.640 I look at that, I go, man, it sure seems 2146 01:43:45.720 --> 01:43:48.720 like repent and believe in Jesus for the forgiveness of 2147 01:43:48.760 --> 01:43:51.359 your sins is a more simple and the sure pathway 2148 01:43:51.600 --> 01:43:52.159 to salvation. 2149 01:43:52.279 --> 01:43:53.159 Heal to simplicity. 2150 01:43:53.239 --> 01:43:55.800 So like when I debate the Muslims, they'll say, you 2151 01:43:55.800 --> 01:43:59.520 have all this trinitarian theologists complex, Islam is very simple, 2152 01:43:59.760 --> 01:44:02.920 just as they'll say you just you just just believe 2153 01:44:02.960 --> 01:44:03.840 in the four principles. 2154 01:44:03.840 --> 01:44:07.079 As there. Daniel made that argument that Islam's true because 2155 01:44:07.079 --> 01:44:08.840 it's simple. Okay, that's another fallacy. 2156 01:44:08.960 --> 01:44:13.159 Okay, So because certain Christian groups hold to a simple, 2157 01:44:13.279 --> 01:44:17.199 simple view of the Gospel, that then invalidates said position. 2158 01:44:20.039 --> 01:44:21.920 It's just a yeah. I'm not saying it makes it correct. 2159 01:44:21.960 --> 01:44:24.680 It's just it's just an oversimplification. So it would be 2160 01:44:24.680 --> 01:44:27.319 the fallacy of oversimplication, or just appeal to simplicity. 2161 01:44:27.479 --> 01:44:30.840 Sure, yeah, and appeal to simplicity. That's fair. I think 2162 01:44:30.920 --> 01:44:34.159 I think God is simple. I think salvation is simple. 2163 01:44:34.479 --> 01:44:37.439 I think people who come to Jesus and experience a 2164 01:44:37.520 --> 01:44:40.319 transformed heart, new heart's new desires. I would argue an 2165 01:44:40.319 --> 01:44:43.279 ontological change on the on the identity basis. I think 2166 01:44:43.279 --> 01:44:44.119 that's fairly simple. 2167 01:44:44.680 --> 01:44:46.199 I mean I could, I would al sory. It's kind 2168 01:44:46.199 --> 01:44:47.680 of an equivocation fallacy. 2169 01:44:47.760 --> 01:44:50.479 So because God is simple as a being, that has 2170 01:44:50.479 --> 01:44:52.640 nothing to do with whether the message of the Gospel 2171 01:44:52.680 --> 01:44:54.800 is equated to what you're saying is simplicity. 2172 01:44:55.239 --> 01:44:59.600 So it's another non sequitor. So repent and believe it 2173 01:44:59.640 --> 01:45:00.520 doesn't articulate. 2174 01:45:00.600 --> 01:45:02.239 I mean, is that the only passage or does he 2175 01:45:02.279 --> 01:45:04.079 also say an acts to repent and believe and be 2176 01:45:04.119 --> 01:45:05.520 baptized for the remission of sins. 2177 01:45:05.520 --> 01:45:07.119 I think you should be. I think you should be. 2178 01:45:07.359 --> 01:45:09.439 But it's baptism for the remission of sins. And then 2179 01:45:09.479 --> 01:45:11.079 they water baptize a few thousand people. 2180 01:45:11.159 --> 01:45:14.560 Huh. So the baptism that's water baptism is the remission 2181 01:45:14.600 --> 01:45:15.000 of the sense. 2182 01:45:15.079 --> 01:45:17.039 Sure, I believe in baptism. I think people should know 2183 01:45:17.119 --> 01:45:21.119 baptismal regeneration. You holds a baptismal regeneration Acts two thirty nine. 2184 01:45:21.479 --> 01:45:23.880 So but here's the thing, Jay, you holds a baptismal regeneration, 2185 01:45:24.239 --> 01:45:26.800 someone is not born again? Am I tracking correctly about 2186 01:45:26.800 --> 01:45:27.800 to unless they're baptized. 2187 01:45:27.880 --> 01:45:32.000 Yes, uh, well again a catechumen who dies on the 2188 01:45:32.000 --> 01:45:33.079 way to the baptism. 2189 01:45:33.159 --> 01:45:35.359 So there's a nuance to it, That's what I'm getting out. 2190 01:45:35.359 --> 01:45:37.439 But no, you're not born again until you're baptized, correct, 2191 01:45:37.439 --> 01:45:41.399 But you could still go to heaven in the case 2192 01:45:41.439 --> 01:45:45.760 of people who are not intentionally thwarting it. That's just 2193 01:45:45.800 --> 01:45:47.560 like the thief on the cross, right, right. I think 2194 01:45:47.600 --> 01:45:49.479 God is merciful and he makes ways. 2195 01:45:49.600 --> 01:45:52.640 He's not. God is merciful, a miser. He's not there 2196 01:45:52.720 --> 01:45:54.199 to like try to cast people out. 2197 01:45:54.239 --> 01:45:56.720 He wants and loves man, yes, say, and the leturgy 2198 01:45:56.840 --> 01:45:57.720 is the lover of mankind. 2199 01:45:57.760 --> 01:45:58.000 Amen. 2200 01:45:58.079 --> 01:46:00.279 But that doesn't so he's still creating pathways for people 2201 01:46:00.279 --> 01:46:01.359 that don't do all the right things. 2202 01:46:01.600 --> 01:46:04.479 Here's the problem, though, this is this is called taking 2203 01:46:04.640 --> 01:46:06.680 the exception to be the rule. And this is what 2204 01:46:06.720 --> 01:46:09.600 Protestants often do. Or they take these exceptions and then 2205 01:46:09.600 --> 01:46:13.119 that becomes the theological paradigm that gets rid of the rule. 2206 01:46:13.239 --> 01:46:15.399 The rule. Is for example, an Act two thirty eight 2207 01:46:15.399 --> 01:46:16.600 thirty nine, Peter says. 2208 01:46:16.880 --> 01:46:20.159 Peter doesn't say repent and sola fide, you'll be justified 2209 01:46:20.159 --> 01:46:23.359 by it. He says, repent and be baptized for the 2210 01:46:23.359 --> 01:46:26.560 remission of sins, and then they water baptize people, so 2211 01:46:26.600 --> 01:46:30.439 we know that it's not a Calvinist you say, I'm 2212 01:46:30.439 --> 01:46:33.880 notssing your Calvinist. I'm using example of Invisible Church. He 2213 01:46:33.920 --> 01:46:36.760 doesn't say anything about being united. He just says he 2214 01:46:36.800 --> 01:46:37.960 doesn't baptism. 2215 01:46:38.079 --> 01:46:42.760 Yeah, I'm saying, I understand your your point about exception 2216 01:46:42.840 --> 01:46:44.880 to the rule fallacy. I get that theink's up fair critique. 2217 01:46:44.920 --> 01:46:47.520 What I'm saying is there seems to always be the 2218 01:46:47.560 --> 01:46:50.119 exception to the rule, and I agree with the rule. 2219 01:46:50.760 --> 01:46:52.640 I think you should be baptized. I think you should 2220 01:46:52.640 --> 01:46:54.760 be in a local church. I think you should wage 2221 01:46:54.760 --> 01:46:56.279 war on your sin and become more. 2222 01:46:56.399 --> 01:47:01.600 I'm just specifically saying the dominant New Testament differences to baptism. 2223 01:47:01.960 --> 01:47:05.119 From our paradigm, we would argue our baptism regeneration like 2224 01:47:05.159 --> 01:47:09.520 Titus three, but the way the Washington Labor regeneration. 2225 01:47:09.279 --> 01:47:12.680 And if that doesn't happen, someone can be not born 2226 01:47:12.720 --> 01:47:13.840 again but still go to heaven. 2227 01:47:13.960 --> 01:47:18.039 But that doesn't negate baptism. Regeneration is the point. That's fine, okay, 2228 01:47:18.079 --> 01:47:20.720 but it's not the rule. A most Protestant teaching is 2229 01:47:20.720 --> 01:47:23.800 not baptism regeneration. Unless you're listener. There's tons of Protestants 2230 01:47:23.840 --> 01:47:26.520 that hold a baptism regeneration. I just had the guy 2231 01:47:26.600 --> 01:47:29.479 from theos University on that helds the baptism. It is 2232 01:47:29.520 --> 01:47:33.359 not the classical normative Protestant position except for many Lutherans 2233 01:47:33.359 --> 01:47:36.279 believe it. Some Anglicans believe it. But it's not typical 2234 01:47:36.359 --> 01:47:38.399 evangelical Protestant teaching. That's that's fair. 2235 01:47:38.960 --> 01:47:40.760 All I'm getting at is that there are Protestants that 2236 01:47:40.800 --> 01:47:43.760 hold to it, and there's still exceptions to the rule. 2237 01:47:44.520 --> 01:47:48.159 You guys create nuances, Catholics great nuances. Everyone has exceptions 2238 01:47:48.199 --> 01:47:49.720 to the rule of what a Christian ought to do 2239 01:47:49.880 --> 01:47:51.720 versus the reality of when it doesn't happen. 2240 01:47:51.720 --> 01:47:56.399 But this is this is one doctrine right Baptism, sure right. 2241 01:47:56.399 --> 01:47:59.560 We've got the Eucharists, We've got children, particular the Eucharist. 2242 01:48:00.119 --> 01:48:04.119 We've got a host of things that were already settled. 2243 01:48:04.359 --> 01:48:06.840 And the main problem I would say about Protestant in 2244 01:48:06.920 --> 01:48:09.760 this regard is that each generation has to reinvent the 2245 01:48:09.760 --> 01:48:12.960 wheel and start it all over when we have already 2246 01:48:12.960 --> 01:48:15.680 settled these issues and in fact, in the case of 2247 01:48:17.039 --> 01:48:20.720 the ecclesial reality, the church is already declared and define 2248 01:48:21.119 --> 01:48:24.439 the extent of the body of Christ. Christ is not divided. 2249 01:48:24.439 --> 01:48:27.920 Paul says, he doesn't exist amongst thousands of different competing 2250 01:48:28.000 --> 01:48:31.800 claiming sects, and so if there's no boundaries and guidelines 2251 01:48:31.800 --> 01:48:35.000 as to what the visible Church is, and I would 2252 01:48:35.079 --> 01:48:38.359 argue formerly being a Protestant believing in the invisible Church doctrine, 2253 01:48:38.800 --> 01:48:41.439 it contradicts Christology that. 2254 01:48:41.399 --> 01:48:46.000 Christ's body is divided. And okay, I got you. Tell 2255 01:48:46.000 --> 01:48:47.600 me about comedy in your. 2256 01:48:47.399 --> 01:48:50.800 In your and your comedy. I want to make sure. 2257 01:48:50.840 --> 01:48:52.199 I want to make sure we get to we're going 2258 01:48:52.199 --> 01:48:55.119 on four hours, which this is Why are you I'm 2259 01:48:55.119 --> 01:48:58.039 glad you like it. Are you willing to engage like 2260 01:48:58.079 --> 01:49:01.159 in person debates because I'd love to facility. Sure, maybe 2261 01:49:01.520 --> 01:49:05.520 Blescot Summit too. A couple of folks that me versus MADI. 2262 01:49:06.119 --> 01:49:08.359 I'm gonna be I'm gonna be Jim Jones, and I 2263 01:49:08.399 --> 01:49:10.359 want the MADI to be on this. I would love 2264 01:49:10.399 --> 01:49:12.119 to see I don't think this would happen, but I 2265 01:49:12.159 --> 01:49:14.079 would love to see you and Gavin Ortland go over 2266 01:49:14.079 --> 01:49:15.760 it in person. I don't think he would do it. 2267 01:49:16.640 --> 01:49:18.760 Cleave's antiquity would you do something with him in person. 2268 01:49:18.760 --> 01:49:19.760 If we facilitated it. 2269 01:49:21.600 --> 01:49:25.319 We didn't have the best interaction, but uh maybe, but 2270 01:49:26.119 --> 01:49:29.960 could we not get a larger I don't mean to 2271 01:49:29.960 --> 01:49:31.960 be a douchebag. No, no, no, a larger. 2272 01:49:32.159 --> 01:49:33.840 That's what I don't think. I don't think Gavin would 2273 01:49:33.840 --> 01:49:35.600 do it. I think Gavin is the largest name. That's 2274 01:49:35.600 --> 01:49:39.079 a Protestant apology. What about cosmic sceptic? Do you want 2275 01:49:39.119 --> 01:49:42.079 a debate cosmic sceptic on what atheism? 2276 01:49:42.520 --> 01:49:43.479 Uh? 2277 01:49:44.079 --> 01:49:45.479 I mean I would love to see that happen. I 2278 01:49:45.479 --> 01:49:46.960 don't know if he'd do it. I don't think he'd 2279 01:49:46.960 --> 01:49:48.720 do it. I think he really wanted to debate. Is 2280 01:49:48.800 --> 01:49:54.159 Jesus God who said? Again? Yeah, we got with the. 2281 01:49:54.119 --> 01:49:54.680 Timing of that. 2282 01:49:54.760 --> 01:49:56.720 Was was great with David would because they had already 2283 01:49:56.720 --> 01:49:59.720 had that set up. It fell through the Jihati stuff 2284 01:50:00.119 --> 01:50:02.760 and it was like, hey, let's remember that, you know 2285 01:50:02.800 --> 01:50:04.520 what I mean? And so we got him to do that. 2286 01:50:04.600 --> 01:50:06.760 But I mean I would I wouldn't mind asking for sure. 2287 01:50:07.319 --> 01:50:10.239 Uh, he was supposed to debate who who'd you say 2288 01:50:10.239 --> 01:50:10.760 you were going to say? 2289 01:50:10.800 --> 01:50:15.960 David Wood was supposed to debate cosmics cosa modern debate 2290 01:50:16.560 --> 01:50:18.199 that seven or whatever it was called. 2291 01:50:18.239 --> 01:50:20.920 And then there was joh and then he. 2292 01:50:20.920 --> 01:50:23.000 Dropped out, and then we were able to say, hey, 2293 01:50:23.039 --> 01:50:24.800 let's just do it at our event, and it worked 2294 01:50:24.800 --> 01:50:26.000 out because he was already come in. 2295 01:50:26.039 --> 01:50:29.600 Why don't we, like we can game plan and figure 2296 01:50:29.600 --> 01:50:31.439 out like a do you do want it to be 2297 01:50:31.479 --> 01:50:32.520 a Protestant or like. 2298 01:50:32.600 --> 01:50:34.600 A Muslim or just I don't want to do anything 2299 01:50:34.640 --> 01:50:35.159 with Muslims. 2300 01:50:35.520 --> 01:50:37.680 I think atheists are pretty hard to come by nowadays 2301 01:50:37.720 --> 01:50:41.039 in terms of atheists that are willing to engage. I know, uh, 2302 01:50:41.079 --> 01:50:44.039 And there's not a lot of Protestant apologists that are 2303 01:50:44.239 --> 01:50:46.840 like even trying to wave the flag of like we're 2304 01:50:46.880 --> 01:50:49.920 defending because because we believe in the invisible chructure, because 2305 01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:51.640 we believe you guys are in those Are you guys 2306 01:50:51.680 --> 01:50:53.680 that believe Jesus died for your sins and place your 2307 01:50:53.680 --> 01:50:56.039 faith in him. There's not There's not a lot of them, 2308 01:50:56.199 --> 01:50:59.159 and so you tend to really discuss these things a lot, right, 2309 01:50:59.239 --> 01:51:03.000 And so that's why I, oh, well, Jay versus a cleaps. 2310 01:51:02.720 --> 01:51:04.079 To west half. 2311 01:51:04.560 --> 01:51:07.720 We's how I could ask my he hees loosely confirmed 2312 01:51:07.720 --> 01:51:10.239 for night one of our debate Blesscot summit. 2313 01:51:10.319 --> 01:51:13.800 So what would you want to debate him about I'm flexible, like. 2314 01:51:13.720 --> 01:51:17.319 What whatever he thinks or you think I'm open? 2315 01:51:17.479 --> 01:51:19.640 Okay, yeah, that's that's a great idea. Yeah, he'll be 2316 01:51:19.760 --> 01:51:21.560 I think we got a soft yes from Wes on 2317 01:51:22.880 --> 01:51:27.279 Canon scripture. Yeah, Canon scripture West half say Dire, that'll 2318 01:51:27.319 --> 01:51:30.920 be fire. I think you're You're way more pleasant in 2319 01:51:30.960 --> 01:51:33.600 person then you come off online, and I think I 2320 01:51:33.640 --> 01:51:36.279 think hopefully people who see this well, keep in mind 2321 01:51:36.800 --> 01:51:41.159 online you're also dealing with, like you know, bad faith actors. 2322 01:51:41.880 --> 01:51:46.439 Many. I'll mention it to Wes anyway, and if not, 2323 01:51:46.560 --> 01:51:48.720 we'll keep it open to other people possibilities. 2324 01:51:48.720 --> 01:51:53.520 Okay, comedy, tell me about the comedy direction. It seems 2325 01:51:53.560 --> 01:51:58.720 to be a disarming tool used in Bye Bye Bye 2326 01:51:58.760 --> 01:52:01.319 Brilliant Communicators. Is that your your use of comedy is 2327 01:52:01.359 --> 01:52:02.840 that you see it as like a, hey, this is 2328 01:52:02.880 --> 01:52:05.800 a great tool to disarm the impressions like all the 2329 01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:08.560 all the stuff that you incorporate in terms of the 2330 01:52:09.159 --> 01:52:11.880 broader thing you're building that is ja Dire, which is 2331 01:52:11.920 --> 01:52:16.159 not just a Catholic Protestant Orthodox stuff the broader community. 2332 01:52:16.359 --> 01:52:18.039 But I everyone thought about it is disarming, But I 2333 01:52:18.039 --> 01:52:19.720 guess it could be I mean, I think it's very disarming. 2334 01:52:19.960 --> 01:52:22.520 I think anyone that that can make somebody trouble. Yeah, 2335 01:52:22.520 --> 01:52:24.880 for sure, that's a good point. Now it's just really 2336 01:52:24.920 --> 01:52:28.720 just something that is just I'm just a naturally goofy dude, 2337 01:52:28.800 --> 01:52:33.720 Like I got superlatives, like in high school, Like I 2338 01:52:33.760 --> 01:52:35.880 was wittiest in my high school. I used to do 2339 01:52:36.000 --> 01:52:38.359 stand up. When I graduated, I went to New York 2340 01:52:38.399 --> 01:52:40.079 and did a bunch of comedy club like opened the 2341 01:52:40.279 --> 01:52:43.560 Mike Knights and stuff. And that was before getting serichs 2342 01:52:43.560 --> 01:52:45.760 about Christianity. And then I kind of, you know, just 2343 01:52:45.760 --> 01:52:47.720 didn't think about anything like that for a long time. 2344 01:52:47.840 --> 01:52:49.319 When you do an open mic scene in New York, 2345 01:52:49.359 --> 01:52:51.760 were you was it like a five minute set you 2346 01:52:51.800 --> 01:52:53.319 had or yeah, yeah. 2347 01:52:53.680 --> 01:52:56.680 This is like nineteen ninety eight, so nice seven ninety eight. 2348 01:52:57.319 --> 01:52:59.239 And then when I came back from being in New 2349 01:52:59.279 --> 01:53:01.239 York for a while, I did like open mic in 2350 01:53:01.319 --> 01:53:04.680 Nashville for you for a year or so. It was 2351 01:53:04.680 --> 01:53:06.680 fun to do, but like I was very like I 2352 01:53:06.720 --> 01:53:07.960 just I w wasn't a Christian at the time. 2353 01:53:07.960 --> 01:53:10.279 I was just kind of wild and being. 2354 01:53:10.119 --> 01:53:14.359 Silly and it's kind of raunchyr routine. But then you know, 2355 01:53:14.399 --> 01:53:16.199 over the years, I would like, you know, jot down 2356 01:53:16.239 --> 01:53:19.840 ideas and write down skits and stuff. And probably the 2357 01:53:20.119 --> 01:53:22.840 big breakthrough that we had with with that was being 2358 01:53:22.920 --> 01:53:25.560 on The Tucker Show where I did the whole skit 2359 01:53:25.600 --> 01:53:27.479 where I was dressed up as klus Schwab and went 2360 01:53:27.479 --> 01:53:28.239 around New York. 2361 01:53:28.079 --> 01:53:30.560 And going around Austin. And that was a great skit. 2362 01:53:30.640 --> 01:53:33.840 And so I appreciate Tucker and Scooter for you know, 2363 01:53:33.920 --> 01:53:36.119 making that opportunity happen. And then that led to other, 2364 01:53:36.199 --> 01:53:38.720 you know doors that we did a lot of podcasts 2365 01:53:38.720 --> 01:53:41.479 with comedians over the last five years and networked with 2366 01:53:41.520 --> 01:53:42.079 those guys. 2367 01:53:42.079 --> 01:53:44.840 And would you ever see yourself doing just straight up 2368 01:53:44.880 --> 01:53:47.520 stand up like you're writing such jokes. Maybe you have 2369 01:53:47.520 --> 01:53:49.520 writers with you and that's like the main thing of 2370 01:53:49.520 --> 01:53:50.279 your life event. 2371 01:53:50.159 --> 01:53:52.239 I mean, I'm open to that, it's just I'm not Like. 2372 01:53:52.279 --> 01:53:54.600 The problem is, I don't live near a place you 2373 01:53:54.640 --> 01:53:56.840 need to practice stand up you know what I mean, 2374 01:53:57.039 --> 01:54:00.760 to be a stand up It's not really good venues 2375 01:54:00.800 --> 01:54:03.079 in the middle of nowhere, Tennessee. So I we'd have 2376 01:54:03.119 --> 01:54:06.039 to move and I mean maybe in the future, but 2377 01:54:06.079 --> 01:54:09.479 for the meantime, like doing I write for Sam Hyde 2378 01:54:09.720 --> 01:54:12.199 and he started a show a few months ago, sam 2379 01:54:12.239 --> 01:54:16.520 I'd show. First episode got twenty million views across like 2380 01:54:16.600 --> 01:54:23.239 most platforms, counting YouTube, counting acts. Huge huge thing went viral, 2381 01:54:23.600 --> 01:54:27.199 got clipped shared millions of times, and then. 2382 01:54:27.920 --> 01:54:30.920 Episodes two, three, four did pretty good. So I'm really 2383 01:54:31.000 --> 01:54:31.760 enjoying doing that. 2384 01:54:32.199 --> 01:54:35.920 And it's a way to do comedy without like just 2385 01:54:35.960 --> 01:54:39.840 pure stand up like writing for him. So but I'd 2386 01:54:39.920 --> 01:54:41.439 like to keep doing that. I'd like to expand that 2387 01:54:41.520 --> 01:54:42.880 kind of stuff because I really get a lot of 2388 01:54:43.000 --> 01:54:43.680 joy out of doing that. 2389 01:54:43.720 --> 01:54:44.600 How often are you writing. 2390 01:54:46.279 --> 01:54:48.479 We've been putting out a show every couple of weeks, 2391 01:54:48.960 --> 01:54:50.960 so we've done this is we're going on like I 2392 01:54:51.000 --> 01:54:52.000 think it's a six episode. 2393 01:54:52.079 --> 01:54:54.399 I mean I just meant like, okay, So I'm asking 2394 01:54:54.439 --> 01:54:59.199 this purely out of selfish reasons, like as someone that 2395 01:54:59.319 --> 01:55:02.760 is interesting multiple things. I wrote my first book. Maybe 2396 01:55:02.840 --> 01:55:04.119 you take a look at that, you know, and have 2397 01:55:04.199 --> 01:55:07.439 me on for that. But I'm still passionate about music. 2398 01:55:08.000 --> 01:55:09.880 I do it four tonight, four days a week. We 2399 01:55:09.960 --> 01:55:12.039 do stream. Sometimes we do guests, like today, we probably 2400 01:55:12.039 --> 01:55:13.680 won't do a stream because I'll be cooked after this. 2401 01:55:15.239 --> 01:55:18.840 Your daily process in order to get your stuff done that, Like, 2402 01:55:18.840 --> 01:55:20.800 I'm asking, like, how does that work? Like Jay comes in, 2403 01:55:20.880 --> 01:55:23.439 you're streaming, it seems like a lot of hours a day. 2404 01:55:24.279 --> 01:55:26.680 When how do you structure out when you're writing for comedy, 2405 01:55:26.960 --> 01:55:30.880 when you're writing books, when you're writing for other comedians, 2406 01:55:30.880 --> 01:55:32.520 when you're writing for your own show, when a you're 2407 01:55:32.520 --> 01:55:34.680 writing your lectures, Like how does how does that work? 2408 01:55:34.720 --> 01:55:37.079 And how do you balance all that? I'm assuming you 2409 01:55:37.119 --> 01:55:41.640 don't have kids yet? No, Okay, probably that probably not 2410 01:55:41.720 --> 01:55:44.600 because of anything on our end. You're not avoiding that 2411 01:55:44.680 --> 01:55:45.800 or anything. It just hasn't happened. 2412 01:55:46.800 --> 01:55:48.920 Yeah, I mean day to day structure is just like 2413 01:55:49.079 --> 01:55:51.039 I'm sure you're the same way. Like I work from 2414 01:55:51.039 --> 01:55:54.079 the time of wake up until midnight one in the morning, 2415 01:55:54.159 --> 01:55:56.720 so we work all the time. Like the whole drive here, 2416 01:55:56.760 --> 01:56:01.079 I read two books because we drove to. I don't 2417 01:56:01.119 --> 01:56:03.920 like to fly, so like, I I wait, did you 2418 01:56:03.920 --> 01:56:04.439 did you drive? 2419 01:56:04.760 --> 01:56:08.479 Yeah? It's a gangster bro I hate flying so much. 2420 01:56:08.680 --> 01:56:11.199 Like we had a really bad flight experience to coming 2421 01:56:11.239 --> 01:56:11.920 back from Italy. 2422 01:56:12.079 --> 01:56:15.680 Huh how bad? Really bad? Really, like like you thought 2423 01:56:15.680 --> 01:56:17.840 you were going to crash back. Yeah, it was extreme, 2424 01:56:17.960 --> 01:56:21.600 extreme turbulence for for eight hours. The whole way back. 2425 01:56:21.760 --> 01:56:22.479 That's horrifying. 2426 01:56:23.199 --> 01:56:24.920 Yeah, it was like some kind of weird torture. It 2427 01:56:25.000 --> 01:56:27.439 was like being in like a autonam O Bay or 2428 01:56:27.439 --> 01:56:30.239 something like. The whole thing was like that's for eight 2429 01:56:30.279 --> 01:56:34.960 hours straight. Yeah, and people were screaming. It was crazy crying. 2430 01:56:36.199 --> 01:56:39.680 So that was a traumatic experience. That'll make you repent. 2431 01:56:40.319 --> 01:56:44.199 Uh. We did an Orthodox Italy pilgrimage November of last year. 2432 01:56:44.279 --> 01:56:47.840 Yeah, that that they'll give you some some some repentance. 2433 01:56:47.319 --> 01:56:49.039 Repentance and justification prayers. 2434 01:56:50.720 --> 01:56:52.760 So when you're okay, So a lot of it is 2435 01:56:52.760 --> 01:56:55.039 like you're driving places, you're getting to read, and then 2436 01:56:55.119 --> 01:56:55.840 you're just kind of. 2437 01:56:56.439 --> 01:56:58.880 I mean I read a lot. I've always been a reader. 2438 01:56:58.920 --> 01:57:00.840 My mom was an editor of a library, so I 2439 01:57:00.880 --> 01:57:03.359 was raised with books, so I love to read. 2440 01:57:03.720 --> 01:57:05.079 I'm always devouring a book. 2441 01:57:06.600 --> 01:57:09.039 And then like comedic stuff is kind of random, Like 2442 01:57:09.319 --> 01:57:12.159 usually when you're having good conversations, you get funny ideas. 2443 01:57:12.560 --> 01:57:14.439 My wife and I are my friends, so I have 2444 01:57:14.479 --> 01:57:17.960 a comedy notebook. I write stuff down, so that but 2445 01:57:17.960 --> 01:57:20.119 that I mean that's only like probably once every week 2446 01:57:20.199 --> 01:57:23.039 or two where we hammer out a semite episode or whatever. 2447 01:57:23.119 --> 01:57:26.119 So far, live events like I said, A lot of 2448 01:57:26.119 --> 01:57:28.560 that's improv A lot of that's impressions. I have a roster, 2449 01:57:28.680 --> 01:57:29.800 like fifty impressions I can do. 2450 01:57:29.920 --> 01:57:31.199 So your lecture. 2451 01:57:32.359 --> 01:57:34.520 Lectures improv or is your lecture written out word for 2452 01:57:34.560 --> 01:57:36.279 word or's a bulletproce or is it just. 2453 01:57:36.279 --> 01:57:38.720 Kind of so used to riffing off hand, I don't 2454 01:57:38.800 --> 01:57:42.000 have it written out. I just talk from the slide 2455 01:57:42.439 --> 01:57:45.399 and so you have a slide show, there's slides of 2456 01:57:45.439 --> 01:57:47.720 images got in a little bit of text. But like 2457 01:57:48.560 --> 01:57:50.399 you know, we if I think you know this like too, 2458 01:57:50.479 --> 01:57:54.159 Like when you've been talking and podcasting for over ten years, 2459 01:57:54.640 --> 01:57:56.479 you don't really have to have everything written out. 2460 01:57:56.560 --> 01:57:58.479 Yeah you can, I'm with you. I would say I 2461 01:57:58.479 --> 01:57:58.880 have to read it. 2462 01:57:58.920 --> 01:58:02.399 Writing a book, A does a roll index of stuff 2463 01:58:02.760 --> 01:58:04.760 that I've organized my thoughts, put them on paper, and 2464 01:58:04.760 --> 01:58:07.520 then I can always pull a top from different facets. 2465 01:58:07.680 --> 01:58:10.239 It makes it easier for sure. Yeah. 2466 01:58:10.239 --> 01:58:11.640 I mean sometimes, like if I do an electro, I 2467 01:58:11.680 --> 01:58:14.239 might have a couple of notes, but most of the 2468 01:58:14.239 --> 01:58:15.920 time I have a good recall. 2469 01:58:16.000 --> 01:58:17.479 Yeah, bless me a good recall. 2470 01:58:17.720 --> 01:58:19.520 So, yeah, I know you're super smart, dude, and your 2471 01:58:19.560 --> 01:58:22.199 your your freaking your ability to do so many different 2472 01:58:22.199 --> 01:58:27.159 things and retain so much information. Is super duper impressive. 2473 01:58:28.920 --> 01:58:31.520 Before before we get out of here, you got it. 2474 01:58:31.560 --> 01:58:33.640 You got to either give us an impression or you 2475 01:58:33.760 --> 01:58:36.039 got to kick kick a free style one of the two. 2476 01:58:36.239 --> 01:58:38.279 How about I do a little Nick Cage? All right, 2477 01:58:38.439 --> 01:58:41.399 Nicholas Cage. So I have in my my code here 2478 01:58:42.199 --> 01:58:44.840 a piece of bone that I picked up and I 2479 01:58:44.880 --> 01:58:47.560 felt like it really gets me into a shamanic attitude. 2480 01:58:48.119 --> 01:58:50.720 How's that? That's great? That's an actual coat. He actually says. 2481 01:58:50.720 --> 01:58:55.720 He's I believe in a style of acting called neo shamanic. Well, 2482 01:58:55.760 --> 01:58:58.439 so that's what he says. Look up, that's crazy. Look up, 2483 01:58:58.560 --> 01:59:02.800 Nicholas Cage. Neo shaman in it. Yes, that's he pulls 2484 01:59:02.880 --> 01:59:04.640 up in his coat. He says, I have a piece 2485 01:59:04.680 --> 01:59:07.920 of bone here, and I feel like it makes me 2486 01:59:07.960 --> 01:59:12.439 into a shawman. That's the Who else? Who's your favorite impression? Whatever? 2487 01:59:12.760 --> 01:59:18.800 Billy D Williams, there's a bonch man. Yeah, there's Terrence McKenna. 2488 01:59:18.880 --> 01:59:22.039 Do you know who Terrence McKenna is. If you take 2489 01:59:22.079 --> 01:59:24.960 the mushroom, you will see the gods and they will 2490 01:59:24.960 --> 01:59:27.800 speak to you. I'm going to vote for the mushroom 2491 01:59:27.840 --> 01:59:32.560 in twenty twenty eight for president. You know who Terrence beginning. Yeah, 2492 01:59:32.840 --> 01:59:38.720 I see the picture, so again, yeah that's Terrence. Oh yeah, 2493 01:59:38.720 --> 01:59:41.800 that's Terence. That's exactly what it talks about. That's amazing. 2494 01:59:42.560 --> 01:59:45.279 There's like forty of them. How did you get into impressions? 2495 01:59:45.359 --> 01:59:48.159 So in high school I did stand up at our 2496 01:59:48.439 --> 01:59:52.119 senior graduation, Okay, and all the stand up was was 2497 01:59:52.239 --> 01:59:53.680 me impersonating all the teachers. 2498 01:59:54.079 --> 01:59:56.600 No, they killed it right now. The teachers got mad. 2499 01:59:56.680 --> 02:00:00.359 But yeah, that's awesome. So I just started, you know, like, boy. 2500 02:00:00.319 --> 02:00:02.159 Oh, he does im There's a there's a there's a 2501 02:00:02.279 --> 02:00:04.319 thing to people who can do impressions, like I don't. 2502 02:00:04.319 --> 02:00:05.159 I don't know what it is. 2503 02:00:05.199 --> 02:00:09.159 I don't know if it's like attention to detail. It's 2504 02:00:09.199 --> 02:00:11.800 a weird telling ability they have where they can catch 2505 02:00:11.840 --> 02:00:14.159 the things that, like, I can do an impression in 2506 02:00:14.159 --> 02:00:16.520 review because like I'm just interacting with you, I'm present 2507 02:00:16.520 --> 02:00:19.199 in this moment, Like you could pick apart the inflections 2508 02:00:19.199 --> 02:00:21.119 and the two catch and yeah, certain things that like 2509 02:00:21.119 --> 02:00:22.720 I don't think some people can do. 2510 02:00:23.159 --> 02:00:26.680 Sometimes the impressions are super easy, but then sometimes you 2511 02:00:26.720 --> 02:00:30.359 have to really work on it. I had to really 2512 02:00:30.359 --> 02:00:32.319 work on Trump it took me a long time. We 2513 02:00:32.359 --> 02:00:34.720 got to hear it's ok. I have to get into 2514 02:00:34.800 --> 02:00:38.039 let me think, let's see so glad to be here, 2515 02:00:38.199 --> 02:00:41.920 Thank you, thank you. Rouse Lana probably the best podcast. 2516 02:00:42.359 --> 02:00:44.840 I don't know. Maybe probably, I don't know. We'll have 2517 02:00:44.840 --> 02:00:49.079 to ask Gamala is just the best podcast. Maybe we're 2518 02:00:49.079 --> 02:00:51.600 gonna we're gonna make it the best podcast because we're here, 2519 02:00:51.640 --> 02:00:56.159 we're at it right now. I didn't even catch that's 2520 02:00:56.239 --> 02:01:00.960 pretty good. I didn't even Okay, nice not I don't. 2521 02:01:01.239 --> 02:01:02.399 I don't impression. 2522 02:01:02.640 --> 02:01:07.960 But he does impress but you do, no, you do impressions. 2523 02:01:07.960 --> 02:01:12.439 But Zach will do someone stream. 2524 02:01:12.399 --> 02:01:17.800 In the moment, Oh yeah with the voice. Yeah, do 2525 02:01:17.800 --> 02:01:19.000 you want to get in trouble doing an RFK? 2526 02:01:19.560 --> 02:01:21.399 I So when we did an l A event, I 2527 02:01:21.399 --> 02:01:23.439 thought it was gonna be funny if I rolled out, 2528 02:01:23.840 --> 02:01:24.680 uh my ark. 2529 02:01:24.760 --> 02:01:27.960 Jokes, dude, I had. I had a killer r f 2530 02:01:28.039 --> 02:01:30.000 K joke. I was like, I'm gonna kill with the 2531 02:01:30.000 --> 02:01:32.760 stand up routine about r f K. And everybody got 2532 02:01:32.800 --> 02:01:34.520 mad at me, dude, because I made a joke about 2533 02:01:34.560 --> 02:01:36.960 his voice. He did a great impression, and what a 2534 02:01:36.960 --> 02:01:40.039 thing with RFK. His voice is coming back. If someone's 2535 02:01:40.119 --> 02:01:42.960 voice is coming back. The Lord might be healing him. 2536 02:01:43.000 --> 02:01:44.920 Who knows, Like, I think it's okay, I know what 2537 02:01:44.960 --> 02:01:45.880 my joke was. 2538 02:01:46.479 --> 02:01:51.039 So before I did the impression, right, I was like, so, uh, 2539 02:01:51.439 --> 02:01:54.840 you know, remember the JFK assassination event and the magic bullet. 2540 02:01:54.920 --> 02:01:56.720 I'm pretty sure I know what happened to the magic bullet. 2541 02:01:56.760 --> 02:01:59.399 It went into r f K's throat and it was 2542 02:01:59.479 --> 02:02:00.960 just like dead silence. 2543 02:02:01.000 --> 02:02:03.000 Dude. I was like, it's a joke. I don't hate RFK. 2544 02:02:03.880 --> 02:02:09.119 That's that's the dark jo. That's a dark joke, sweet man, 2545 02:02:09.159 --> 02:02:11.479 which I thanks for doing this absolutely. This is one 2546 02:02:11.520 --> 02:02:12.359 of the longest we've had. 2547 02:02:13.399 --> 02:02:16.640 Could I recommend if people do want to get Star 2548 02:02:16.720 --> 02:02:18.840 Hollywood three, which covers a plethora. 2549 02:02:18.520 --> 02:02:20.760 Yes, please, I'm sorry. Cool well link of below. For 2550 02:02:20.800 --> 02:02:23.199 sure every a lot of really cool movies. 2551 02:02:23.479 --> 02:02:25.399 One and two obviously have a lot, but three it's 2552 02:02:25.439 --> 02:02:27.039 got a lot of like Christopher Nolan, it's got all 2553 02:02:27.079 --> 02:02:28.000 the Marvel movies. 2554 02:02:28.079 --> 02:02:28.760 It's pretty dope. 2555 02:02:28.760 --> 02:02:30.239 But I didn't read the whole thing, but I definitely 2556 02:02:30.279 --> 02:02:31.640 looked through it and I was like, man, you you 2557 02:02:31.640 --> 02:02:33.640 you hit a lot of the stuff I'm personally into. 2558 02:02:34.039 --> 02:02:36.399 Uh, you can go to Jaysonolsons dot com in the 2559 02:02:36.439 --> 02:02:38.840 shop and you can pre order the part three and 2560 02:02:38.840 --> 02:02:39.600 they're all signed. 2561 02:02:39.680 --> 02:02:42.800 You can also get one into but j Analysis. Jay's 2562 02:02:43.439 --> 02:02:45.760 Jays Analysis dot com. We'll link that and it'll. 2563 02:02:45.600 --> 02:02:47.560 Be a shop and then you can get part three 2564 02:02:47.720 --> 02:02:50.319 and it uh will come out in two. 2565 02:02:50.199 --> 02:02:53.960 Months two months July, yes, mid July, mid July, so 2566 02:02:54.079 --> 02:02:56.079 it'll be out and they could check that out and yeah, 2567 02:02:56.119 --> 02:02:59.760 it looks dope. I mean, these these are great part 2568 02:02:59.760 --> 02:03:02.119 one in two, but when I looked at that one, 2569 02:03:02.159 --> 02:03:03.960 they just it just had more lot of stuff. It's 2570 02:03:04.000 --> 02:03:05.720 just the stuff that I'm into. You know, you're going 2571 02:03:05.760 --> 02:03:07.279 really deep in some of this stuff that like just 2572 02:03:07.319 --> 02:03:08.960 kind of older movies. But on the third one, it 2573 02:03:09.000 --> 02:03:12.000 was like, oh, like there's more Batman, like all this stuff, 2574 02:03:12.319 --> 02:03:12.920 all the marvel. 2575 02:03:13.119 --> 02:03:14.680 Are you working on another book after this or is 2576 02:03:14.720 --> 02:03:16.520 this kind of I think what I If I do, 2577 02:03:17.199 --> 02:03:19.319 it'll be a it won't be Hollywood. It'll be like 2578 02:03:20.399 --> 02:03:24.159 Intelligence and Religion, Okay, because nobody's really there's like two 2579 02:03:24.199 --> 02:03:26.039 books on that. Okay, So dope. 2580 02:03:26.279 --> 02:03:28.439 All right, we're out of here, guys, Jay Dyer, thanks 2581 02:03:28.439 --> 02:03:30.439 so much, brother, Hey, thank you so much for checking 2582 02:03:30.439 --> 02:03:32.880 out the video. Please be sure to comment below and 2583 02:03:32.920 --> 02:03:35.600 subscribe and all that good stuff, and check out this 2584 02:03:35.800 --> 02:03:38.920 other video that YouTube seems to be recommending just for you. 2585 02:03:39.159 --> 02:03:40.640 Let me know if they nailed it all right, I'll 2586 02:03:40.640 --> 02:03:41.640 see you over there, peace,