1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,080
Speaker 1: So is orthopos considered a derogatory term. You and Sam

2
00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,879
have your situation. What was your impression of the debate

3
00:00:07,919 --> 00:00:10,640
you had with him as a debate partner on valutainment?

4
00:00:11,199 --> 00:00:14,560
And then when do you think that devolved to? What

5
00:00:14,839 --> 00:00:16,839
ended up evolving to? Which will get into if.

6
00:00:16,719 --> 00:00:20,559
Speaker 2: We don't make judgments about individuals, and like I don't

7
00:00:20,559 --> 00:00:22,960
know your destiny, I don't know the work of God's

8
00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,120
spirit in your heart. I do believe that like the

9
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,120
thief on the cross, and I tried to bring some

10
00:00:27,399 --> 00:00:31,160
philosophical internal critiques to the table, and I think it

11
00:00:31,199 --> 00:00:32,759
was a blowout. If you go to the pressure of

12
00:00:32,799 --> 00:00:36,039
a channel, you can see forty thousand ish comments.

13
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,880
Speaker 3: Ninety eight percent is un lost.

14
00:00:39,119 --> 00:00:40,920
Speaker 1: Some of the folks that I see that are coming

15
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,600
towards Eastern Orthodox seem to have a crippling fear and

16
00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,479
anxiety around their own salvation.

17
00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,759
Speaker 2: The argument that you're making violates the very thing that

18
00:00:49,799 --> 00:00:52,000
you just said would relativize the positions.

19
00:00:52,359 --> 00:00:54,200
Speaker 3: The argument that I'm making right now, Your.

20
00:00:54,159 --> 00:00:56,799
Speaker 2: Argument is no different than anyone else's argument you're citing.

21
00:00:56,799 --> 00:00:59,320
You're saying I have this position, they have that position.

22
00:00:59,359 --> 00:01:01,560
You have your position. Yeah, of course, but that has

23
00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:01,920
nothing to.

24
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,480
Speaker 3: Do with it. Jay's in his stunner shades.

25
00:01:06,879 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 2: I'm going full Jim Jones because I thought I thought

26
00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:10,719
we were going to the Madi, so I was going

27
00:01:10,799 --> 00:01:11,680
to do that cult vibe.

28
00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:14,200
Speaker 3: I better talk the rest of this in the or

29
00:01:14,239 --> 00:01:14,799
show voice.

30
00:01:16,879 --> 00:01:18,920
Speaker 2: Cult lads will also have like a booger whistle, if

31
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:20,040
you know, it's like, oh show, He's like.

32
00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 1: Okay, so so so is ortho bros considered a derogatory

33
00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:29,599
term the only time. The first time I heard it

34
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,719
was at Jonathan Pago's conference last year, the first one

35
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,079
he did, and so I was like, that's interesting because

36
00:01:36,079 --> 00:01:40,920
it because it it articulated for my vantage point a group.

37
00:01:41,079 --> 00:01:43,799
There's I have two very polar opposite experience with Preist

38
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,879
and Orthodox. Some of them are the sweetest, kindest, friendliest

39
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,920
folks I've ever met, and I would say, I would say,

40
00:01:50,959 --> 00:01:53,519
meeting you in person is like that, like you're very kind.

41
00:01:53,799 --> 00:01:55,359
I think we had a great time hanging out. And

42
00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,239
then there's like the online aspect of it and what

43
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,159
they remind me of and I don't want to hypergeneralize,

44
00:02:01,159 --> 00:02:05,280
but it reminded me of the young, Restless and reform movement. Yeah,

45
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:07,560
that was like we would put them in the cage

46
00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,879
stage like you're just like you just became a Calvinist, Like,

47
00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:11,439
let's just put you in a cage so you don't

48
00:02:11,479 --> 00:02:13,360
hurt anybody. And it's like it's one of those two. So,

49
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,520
like every person I've met, whether it's Father Josiah, whether

50
00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,960
it's Jonathan Pago, whether it's Neil from der Poor Robbins,

51
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,000
whether it's even Father Harris, who who's a I would

52
00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:25,479
I don't know if it's appropriate, say a bit more radical.

53
00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,560
He seems a bit more like dogmatic in some of

54
00:02:27,599 --> 00:02:33,520
his positions are totally different than some of the community

55
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,560
and the chatter online, right like even in you saying, hey,

56
00:02:36,599 --> 00:02:38,840
you're coming on my podcast and people were like, better

57
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,719
better tell him, blah blah blah, you know, and I'm like, oh,

58
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,520
like what the contrast?

59
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,159
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah?

60
00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:49,840
Speaker 1: Nothing? Is it really a song for the anathemist? Okay,

61
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,479
we'll get to the anatherists. So anyway, derogatory term. Are

62
00:02:53,479 --> 00:02:55,560
you kind of coined and viewed as the guy who

63
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,560
kind of built this Ortho Rose community?

64
00:02:58,120 --> 00:02:59,759
Speaker 3: Uh? Or is it? Was it already there and you

65
00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,159
just of spoke to it.

66
00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:03,159
Speaker 2: It was a joke that fothered again and nice made

67
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,520
and then for whatever reason, I think, then people started saying, oh,

68
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,719
I'm an Ortho bro, and then the people who wrote

69
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,000
hit pieces used it as a derogatory term, so so

70
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,280
initially as a joke, and then they and then yeah,

71
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,759
and then but I would say, like, yeah, I think

72
00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,000
you've got a full spectrum of like people who aren't

73
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,080
Orthodox who just put up profiles. I mean I've even

74
00:03:25,159 --> 00:03:28,879
caught people who we know are not Orthodox creating profiles

75
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,879
to create nonsense that happens.

76
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,120
Speaker 1: I will say, your guys' cross is definitely the coolest

77
00:03:35,199 --> 00:03:36,199
esthetic cross.

78
00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:38,199
Speaker 2: I mean, anybody can create a Twitter profile and say

79
00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:40,479
I'm Orthodox. By the way, I'm ready to go kill people, right,

80
00:03:40,479 --> 00:03:42,960
and I'm just like, I haven't seen that sort of stuff.

81
00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:49,159
There was a dude who do that. Yeah, anyway, I

82
00:03:49,159 --> 00:03:52,080
also think, like you said, if you know, when you're

83
00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:55,000
like eighteen to twenty five, you're really searching and you're

84
00:03:55,159 --> 00:03:57,120
very idealistic, you're very zealous.

85
00:03:57,199 --> 00:03:58,759
Speaker 3: I was that way when I was in my twenties.

86
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 2: I was a calvalc should have been caged Calvinists right

87
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:02,360
when you.

88
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,599
Speaker 1: Were Calvinists before the young, restless reform. Yes, right, yeah,

89
00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:06,639
it was a couple of years before that. I'm just

90
00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,360
saying that I have Do you remember that era though,

91
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,319
like as you were I guess Catholic or wherever you

92
00:04:10,319 --> 00:04:12,840
were at. Do you remember how like scorching hot like

93
00:04:12,919 --> 00:04:14,719
the John Piper.

94
00:04:14,759 --> 00:04:16,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was really into both of those.

95
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,519
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, but what I'm saying, like twenty not twenty

96
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,199
two thousand and six to two thousand and yeah, ten

97
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:24,639
eleven is like Calvinism.

98
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,480
Speaker 2: Well I moved past those guys before that time, but

99
00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,319
I was really into John Piper and Paul Washer back

100
00:04:31,319 --> 00:04:32,920
in the late nineties and early two thousands.

101
00:04:33,319 --> 00:04:34,160
Speaker 3: They made me Calvinist.

102
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,120
Speaker 1: You were early on that, Okay, Okay, So anyway, Ortho bros.

103
00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:38,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's I think.

104
00:04:38,759 --> 00:04:40,879
Speaker 2: You're gonna have a lot of young people searching who

105
00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,360
are zealous and who immediately want to start debating. And

106
00:04:45,439 --> 00:04:48,079
this is something that FDAFO again and Nice has tried

107
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,079
to like warn about, and in fact, he does an

108
00:04:51,199 --> 00:04:54,959
Orthodox conference and the last two conferences he's done in

109
00:04:55,079 --> 00:05:00,319
Montana were geared towards trying to calm dudes down. And

110
00:05:00,519 --> 00:05:02,920
because people don't understand that, like because you see me

111
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,759
or anybody else doing a debate, like they think, oh,

112
00:05:06,759 --> 00:05:09,319
I got to go debate, Like the orthodoxy is about debating,

113
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,800
not necessarily right, Like you have to go through the

114
00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,399
process of like changing. It has to change you, right,

115
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,000
And I'm not saying it's perfectly changed me. But not

116
00:05:19,079 --> 00:05:21,279
everybody has the skill set or the call to to

117
00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,279
do debates. It takes a certain temperament and sometimes I

118
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,839
lose my temper If you do this for twenty years

119
00:05:27,879 --> 00:05:30,240
plus I've done debates since I was I don't know,

120
00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,279
twenty five years, you're going to have times where you

121
00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,480
lose your temper and it's going to be hard. So

122
00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:38,439
it's not for everybody. But I think a lot of

123
00:05:38,439 --> 00:05:40,600
young people, you know, they just sort of assume that

124
00:05:40,879 --> 00:05:45,160
I got to do what he's doing, and that's not

125
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,040
necessarily the case. And then I think you've got people

126
00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,639
who are serious and who do convert. And I think

127
00:05:50,639 --> 00:05:52,800
there's also a contingent of people who are just not

128
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,319
happy with the idea of debating at all. They think

129
00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,360
that debate is bad. If you debate, it's bad, and

130
00:05:59,439 --> 00:06:02,480
so they'll just sort of lump everybody who debates into

131
00:06:02,519 --> 00:06:03,680
a category.

132
00:06:03,199 --> 00:06:06,160
Speaker 3: Of bad people. Right. That's not fair either. No, I

133
00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:08,079
mean Paul goes out and debates.

134
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,439
Speaker 1: You know, so yeah, Act seven seen, Yeah, Paul Nathan's

135
00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:13,879
one of my favorite chapters. So would you say the

136
00:06:14,319 --> 00:06:16,240
current you've talked about losing your temper is that something

137
00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,079
you go to confession for or is that just something

138
00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:18,560
you personally?

139
00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:18,839
Speaker 3: Yeah?

140
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,439
Speaker 2: No, I mean I've had to confess that probably ten times,

141
00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,519
ten times in yeah, ten years or seven years years.

142
00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,600
Speaker 1: Would you say the general debate culture online is a

143
00:06:28,639 --> 00:06:30,759
net positive or a net negative? Because I get I

144
00:06:30,759 --> 00:06:32,959
get a lot of this asked in our Patreon community

145
00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:34,439
of like, hey, what do you think of this? And

146
00:06:34,439 --> 00:06:36,759
we'll get to the Sam Chamoun and all that. Yeah, crazy,

147
00:06:36,879 --> 00:06:40,120
Like I think that's way out there, right, But net positive?

148
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,079
What do you make of just an overall debate scene.

149
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,920
Speaker 2: I would guess that from my perspective, and like when

150
00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:52,879
we go to our live events, and I would say

151
00:06:52,879 --> 00:06:56,000
in the last five to seven years, we've probably met

152
00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,800
a few thousand people in person, just from traveling coast

153
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,079
to coast many times and going to as churches and whatnot.

154
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,879
I would say it's overall in that positive because we've

155
00:07:05,959 --> 00:07:09,199
met so many people who said I came out of atheism.

156
00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,279
I came out of Islam, I came out of you know,

157
00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:12,279
all these things.

158
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,800
Speaker 1: To Christ because of a debate, and you're seeing these

159
00:07:15,839 --> 00:07:19,160
people in church. Now, yeah, that's that's I would say,

160
00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,519
that's good. I mean, one of the things that I

161
00:07:20,519 --> 00:07:22,720
do appreciate about Orthodoxy is that there seems to be

162
00:07:22,759 --> 00:07:25,480
an emphasis on the practice of the faith, right, which

163
00:07:25,519 --> 00:07:28,079
I think faith should be something that would work out, right,

164
00:07:28,079 --> 00:07:29,879
we work out what God has worked in and so

165
00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,439
I do appreciate that, And that's my conversations with Jonathan

166
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,639
and Neil are always like, yeah, there's there's an emphasis

167
00:07:35,639 --> 00:07:36,199
on practice.

168
00:07:36,279 --> 00:07:40,120
Speaker 3: It's not just a proposition online. It can just be online.

169
00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,279
Speaker 1: It can't just be an agreement to said facts, because

170
00:07:42,279 --> 00:07:44,959
then that's just gnosticism, you know, it's just knowledge and information.

171
00:07:45,759 --> 00:07:48,160
And so I think that's that's cool. So you say

172
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,720
it's a it positive. Now can I add one point

173
00:07:50,759 --> 00:07:52,920
to that. The other thing too, is like I come

174
00:07:52,959 --> 00:07:56,879
out of academic philosophy. So when I was in college,

175
00:07:57,439 --> 00:08:01,000
like you're expected to debate. I think maybe a lot

176
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,680
of universities have moved away from this because but like

177
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,560
back in the two thousands, when I was doing undergrad

178
00:08:05,639 --> 00:08:06,800
like we had debate clubs.

179
00:08:07,279 --> 00:08:07,439
Speaker 3: Yep.

180
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,000
Speaker 2: And when I was a sophomore, I did a public

181
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,120
debate with one of our professors, like it was just

182
00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:18,720
sophomore college college. Wow, I debated my philosophy science professor's atheists. Well,

183
00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:21,360
I did TAG and I think he lost. So, I mean,

184
00:08:21,519 --> 00:08:23,879
I don't think any atheists who doesn't know TAG right

185
00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:25,000
is going to do very.

186
00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:26,439
Speaker 3: Well against the presubsisitional argument.

187
00:08:26,519 --> 00:08:30,319
Speaker 2: But so I'm just saying, I come out of the

188
00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:35,039
milieu of it's expected that you debate if you're a

189
00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:37,240
philosophy student. And I mean I think in my in

190
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,960
my university, it was one of our like you know,

191
00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,080
they have like those corny tag lines like achieving excellence,

192
00:08:44,279 --> 00:08:47,600
analyzing ideas. You know, we're going to produce the perfect

193
00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,360
student in this person who can critically think. Well, I

194
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,360
come out of the athos of critically thinking and the

195
00:08:53,399 --> 00:08:57,000
expectation of you got to defend your ideas. That's what

196
00:08:57,039 --> 00:08:59,879
academic of it was about. For example, even still, if

197
00:08:59,919 --> 00:09:02,200
you do a master's thesis or a PhD, you have

198
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,320
to defend your thesis. That's a degree of debating and apologetic.

199
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,360
So you know, when Socrates goes out in the apology.

200
00:09:11,039 --> 00:09:15,720
He's doing an apologia. He's questioning people's paradigms and assumptions.

201
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,879
That's the essence of philosophy, even back to Plato and Socrates.

202
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,559
So that's also I think an element of this that

203
00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:24,399
I think a lot of people are not I don't

204
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:25,600
mean this in an arrogant way, but a lot of

205
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,639
people are not educated about what philosophy is and what

206
00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,200
it is to question paradigms and to critically think, and

207
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,960
so they just assume that that's arguing. You just want

208
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,919
to argue. A debate is not arguing, and that's why

209
00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:41,559
we do formal and informal debates. So I let people

210
00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,639
call in, ask whatever questions they want, have what are

211
00:09:44,759 --> 00:09:47,240
kind of informal debate they want. But I also do

212
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:53,440
formal academic Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. I'm with you.

213
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:53,840
I think.

214
00:09:54,519 --> 00:09:56,679
Speaker 1: I mean, one of my favorite classes that I've taken

215
00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,960
was a logic and reasoning class. Yeah, you know, philosoph

216
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,480
and philosophy or religion and how do you come to

217
00:10:03,519 --> 00:10:05,720
what your systemology is, like, how do you come to

218
00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:07,399
conclusions of truth? I think that stuff is good and

219
00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:10,279
I think it's good for us to critically think about

220
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,559
these things and how do we come to these conclusions?

221
00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:12,759
Speaker 3: You know?

222
00:10:12,759 --> 00:10:15,600
Speaker 1: So I think that's a listening to your stuff. It

223
00:10:15,639 --> 00:10:19,639
seems like there's always you're even in your debates that

224
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,120
are informal, you're still reminding people and infusing people of

225
00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:27,679
those elements of philosophy, which I think is helpful. You

226
00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:32,159
are presuppositional in your apologetics. Is there a reason why

227
00:10:32,759 --> 00:10:36,919
or do you just not like the classical apologetics approach?

228
00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:39,120
Or is it because you're so connected to philosophy and

229
00:10:39,159 --> 00:10:43,879
logic and reason that you don't use the classical apologetics lane,

230
00:10:44,759 --> 00:10:46,120
or so just that's just not your will.

231
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,600
Speaker 3: I just think that they're not the best arguments.

232
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,440
Speaker 2: So I do agree with Vantilhum made a really good

233
00:10:52,519 --> 00:10:55,879
argument that you could take all the classical arguments and

234
00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,120
make a transtal version of those. So you can make

235
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,480
a transfial argument for telos tell us, you can make

236
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,240
a transfill argument for causation or cosmology, the cosmological argument.

237
00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:10,480
So I just think it's a superior argument. Also, resurrection,

238
00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,799
could you for the classical resurrection? The resurrection happened because

239
00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:15,960
the New Testament is reliable. New Testament's reliable, you know,

240
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:16,519
like that?

241
00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,240
Speaker 3: I would do. Yeah, I would actually argue a transitional

242
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:19,960
version of that too.

243
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,080
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I'll be honest, Like, I wasn't the biggest

244
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,039
presuppositional guy because I would always hear like, kind of

245
00:11:27,039 --> 00:11:30,960
fundamentalists type Christians use it, And then I started hearing

246
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,120
you and Andrew use it, and I was like, and

247
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,799
then Jordan Peterson is very much so he's pretty close

248
00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,360
to that. Yeah, presupposent, And I'm like, Okay, I appreciate

249
00:11:38,399 --> 00:11:39,720
it more here than you guys use it. Well.

250
00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,759
Speaker 2: One thing I would say too, is like presupposition is

251
00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:45,399
not against evidence. A lot of people have this assumption that, oh,

252
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,559
if you are a pre supt guy, you don't do evidences.

253
00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:55,120
It's rather that we're opposed to evidentialism, as if that's

254
00:11:55,159 --> 00:12:00,519
like a superior epistemic approach. We absolutely believe in it evidences.

255
00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,679
You have to use evidences. For example, somebody comes along

256
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,440
and says there's no historical evidence for the person of Christ.

257
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,399
Speaker 3: In that case, it would I.

258
00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:11,159
Speaker 2: Would be absolutely going to historical evidences because I want

259
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,840
to disprove that. But I think the strength of tag

260
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:15,679
is that I want to come along also with a

261
00:12:15,759 --> 00:12:19,759
nuclear level argument to undercut that person's entire paradigm to

262
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,120
give them no room to even make an argument. I

263
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:23,639
think that's just a stronger process.

264
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,320
Speaker 1: I agree, and I think it exhausts people, like I

265
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,279
know Destiny is like, was like, hey, you're not one

266
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,559
of those presuppositional guys when we were on No Jumper,

267
00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:32,639
and I was like, I'm not going to I'm not

268
00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:34,159
going to do that with you. Like we could just

269
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,159
talk just the basics, I would he would have debate

270
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:38,159
me on that. I want to.

271
00:12:38,399 --> 00:12:40,960
Speaker 3: We try for years, and Destiny would not. He doesn't

272
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:42,759
want to debate it. He explicitly says he will not

273
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,159
do that. He would only debate me on politics, and

274
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,559
I'm not really interested in politics.

275
00:12:47,159 --> 00:12:49,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wouldn't even he didn't even want to engage

276
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,759
with anyone that was presupposition. Yeah, exactly, Which is interesting.

277
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,360
Your conversation with myth Vision, I don't know if you

278
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,399
remember that randomly came up in my thing and that

279
00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:58,840
was one of those same thing, like you kind of

280
00:12:58,919 --> 00:13:02,440
chopped the legs from underneath him with the presuppositional portrait,

281
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:03,919
Like how do you even come to know anything?

282
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:04,080
Speaker 3: Right?

283
00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,000
Speaker 2: We did the same with Matt Dilloney with stuff on moloney,

284
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,840
it was all the same type of stuff. Yeah, I'm

285
00:13:09,879 --> 00:13:12,720
sure there's been other atheists, but yeah, I think it's

286
00:13:12,759 --> 00:13:17,039
just a really strong argument for atheists. It can, in

287
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,759
an indirect, roundabout way, work with unitarian Muslim type positions,

288
00:13:20,799 --> 00:13:24,559
but it's harder to get to that end goal. So

289
00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:28,200
I think with Muslims and other theistic positions, it's better

290
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,679
to just kind of go for the internal contradictions like

291
00:13:30,879 --> 00:13:34,320
Islamic dilemma of that kind of stuff. But yeah, I

292
00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:39,279
just think tag is a superior philosophical argmentation, and I

293
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,279
come out of philosophic background.

294
00:13:40,879 --> 00:13:45,399
Speaker 1: So yeah, you talk about debating Muslims. I loved you

295
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,799
and Sam Schamoun debating on value tayment for the Christian position.

296
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,759
Speaker 3: I was like, y'all coming.

297
00:13:51,639 --> 00:13:56,679
Speaker 1: Together, the Catholic and the Orthodox together united, and they

298
00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,480
even try to throw out some bait. They try to

299
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,360
get you guys to kind of turn on each other

300
00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:02,399
a couple of times, and you guys didn't take debate.

301
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:03,799
Speaker 3: I thought it was a great debate. I thought it

302
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,639
was I thought it was fantastic. And then.

303
00:14:08,519 --> 00:14:12,679
Speaker 1: You and Sam have your situation. What was your impression

304
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,679
of the debate you had with him? As a debate

305
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,440
partner on valutainment and then when do you think that

306
00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:21,399
devolved to what ended up devolving to which you will

307
00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:21,799
get into.

308
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

309
00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:26,159
Speaker 2: So, I mean we had been on pretty good terms

310
00:14:26,159 --> 00:14:27,960
for five years ish, six years.

311
00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:29,879
Speaker 3: I mean, wasn't he kind of flirting with.

312
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:31,559
Speaker 1: It?

313
00:14:32,279 --> 00:14:33,679
Speaker 3: Yeah? And then I think he decided to go the

314
00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:35,039
you know, the paybal route. Yeah.

315
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,279
Speaker 1: So, and his thing is like generally like I just

316
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:40,960
want people to go to high church. I just want

317
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,440
people to go to Apostolic succession church, you know, which

318
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,360
is which is really interesting because I don't think it

319
00:14:46,399 --> 00:14:46,960
works that way.

320
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,960
Speaker 3: But I don't know, you could enlighten me, no, I mean, yeah,

321
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:50,440
we just did a.

322
00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 2: Stream with my buddy Kai from worthwox sh Hot of

323
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,639
critiquing that position of the idea of a sort of

324
00:14:54,679 --> 00:14:57,679
a generic Apostolic Christianity, which yeah, yeah, it.

325
00:14:57,639 --> 00:14:58,519
Speaker 3: Doesn't really make sense.

326
00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:02,480
Speaker 2: I mean, but the that debate happened because they were

327
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,679
really looking for on freshman fit. They wanted like a

328
00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:07,600
high profile Muslim Christian debate.

329
00:15:07,639 --> 00:15:11,159
Speaker 3: It was bad, said right, but I mean I just

330
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,879
want to give you know, because I appreciate Myrin setting

331
00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:15,360
that up. That was cool for him to do that.

332
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,600
Speaker 2: And they were like, you know, we want really kind

333
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,759
of aggressive debaters because we're going to put aggressive Muslims

334
00:15:22,759 --> 00:15:26,120
on and it was going to be Daniel Hakikachu and Jake,

335
00:15:26,279 --> 00:15:28,919
and Jake canceled for whatever reason because he didn't want

336
00:15:28,919 --> 00:15:31,279
to do it. But so then they brought in Ijaz,

337
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,600
who's I don't think a very good debater. But uh,

338
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,360
I was happy to like do the you know, step

339
00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:43,600
back because Shimoon definitely knows Islam very well and he

340
00:15:43,639 --> 00:15:44,519
knows the Hadiths, you.

341
00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:48,440
Speaker 3: Know, infinitely better than I do and all that. So yeah,

342
00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:50,759
I thought it was a perfect team up for that situation,

343
00:15:50,879 --> 00:15:53,559
and I tried to bring some you know, philosophical internal

344
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,360
critiques to the to the table. Uh.

345
00:15:56,399 --> 00:15:58,080
Speaker 2: And I think it was a blowout because if you

346
00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,879
go and I mean, it's had multiple millions of views

347
00:15:59,879 --> 00:16:01,960
across the platform. So if you go to the fressire

348
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,879
Fit channel, you can see forty thousand ish comments, ninety

349
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,919
eight percent is Loam lost, So optics were pretty bad

350
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,840
for Muslim So, I mean, and that was last That

351
00:16:14,919 --> 00:16:16,799
was I think the biggest debate of last year except

352
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,759
for West Side Billy Carson, Like, those are the two

353
00:16:18,799 --> 00:16:21,759
biggest debates last year in terms of views, so it

354
00:16:21,799 --> 00:16:25,440
was it was providentially great. And then you know, you've

355
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,240
got Sam moving continuing the last couple of years in

356
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,159
the direction of papism, and you know, my buddies and

357
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,639
I we obviously didn't want him to go in that direction.

358
00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:37,440
So we we we're having this kind of backdoor DM

359
00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:39,159
conversation for a long time.

360
00:16:39,039 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 3: With him directly him a chatting directly behind the scenes.

361
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 2: And the weird part was that we've been talking about

362
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,600
setting up a debate on his channel about orthodoxy papism,

363
00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:51,000
right you and him one.

364
00:16:50,879 --> 00:16:53,519
Speaker 3: On one or with a panel we had.

365
00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 2: We're discussing all possible options, like we were even talking

366
00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:00,799
about doing presentations, just not even a debate like I

367
00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:03,039
do it, because we've done that in the past. For example,

368
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,359
we had a dispute with VOCB Malone some years ago,

369
00:17:06,759 --> 00:17:10,680
so Sam invited me and FDA to come on and

370
00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:13,759
do a presentation and then separate VOKEB Malone.

371
00:17:13,759 --> 00:17:16,720
Speaker 3: Do a presentation. That way, nobody's getting mad, you know,

372
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:18,319
and you can hear both sides.

373
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 2: So we discussed that as a possibility. We discuss a

374
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,119
panel round table. But anyway, long story short, in the

375
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,440
context of this, I just sent him a DM saying, hey,

376
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,519
it was a very cordial do you want to set

377
00:17:31,599 --> 00:17:35,359
up a debate on trinity in the essence sentnery distinction?

378
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,680
Because I think it's really important, contrasting to the Romancolic

379
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:39,640
position the worthodox to.

380
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,039
Speaker 3: Get the energies. And he just flipped out.

381
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,880
Speaker 2: It was like that was just a one How dare

382
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,640
you text me while I'm streaming because you're you're working

383
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,880
for the double It's like, what, totally cool for six

384
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,319
years and then it's like one tweet or one tag.

385
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:56,400
Speaker 3: There was nothing else behind that.

386
00:17:56,519 --> 00:17:56,680
Speaker 1: No.

387
00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,279
Speaker 2: In fact, they even said in the next message, like

388
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,920
hey man, it's no reason to get upset. Let's set

389
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,440
up a timed response that way nobody gets angry. And

390
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,680
it just flipped out, even like it went even crazier.

391
00:18:07,839 --> 00:18:10,799
So at that point I was like, Okay, something something

392
00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:13,440
else is going on, So I just remove myself from

393
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:13,960
that situation.

394
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,279
Speaker 3: Essence energy is distinction.

395
00:18:17,319 --> 00:18:18,960
Speaker 1: I don't want to get super in the weeds on it,

396
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,680
but it seems like Catholics take a more God's simplistic

397
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,720
and that his parts are him. God's love is God,

398
00:18:26,039 --> 00:18:29,720
God's power is God, and you guys have a fair

399
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,599
to say a bit of a distinction between God's essence

400
00:18:32,599 --> 00:18:36,480
and his energies, and that's the foundational disagreement.

401
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,079
Speaker 3: So he had the reason that came up was that

402
00:18:39,319 --> 00:18:41,240
like mocked the energy's thing a bit right.

403
00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:46,079
Speaker 2: After the thing, but like he was presenting a differing

404
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,359
views of the Trinity from Protestant, Reman Catholic Orthodox people,

405
00:18:50,799 --> 00:18:53,400
and that's what prompted me to message him and say,

406
00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:57,599
in our view, there's not just a philly oquay and

407
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,960
non philioquate model. There's also the question of the inner

408
00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:03,039
juices that we believe is directly connected to the Father

409
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,599
as the soul cause or the monarchia in the Godhead.

410
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,640
So monarchical trinitarianism, which doctor bo Branson is a really

411
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,519
good Yeah, I got a couple of monarchical and we

412
00:19:14,599 --> 00:19:17,359
think that like that doesn't stand alone. It also kind

413
00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,759
of necessarily connects to the doctor of the energies because

414
00:19:19,759 --> 00:19:22,039
the energies have the same movement as the person's in

415
00:19:22,079 --> 00:19:26,279
the triad. Interesting anyway, So yeah, I included in the

416
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,400
offer like why don't we discuss trinity, phil oquay and energies?

417
00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:33,799
And I think because he doesn't really know about that,

418
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,680
at all. He's new to a lot of these topics.

419
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,240
It was easier for him to just sort of flip out,

420
00:19:40,519 --> 00:19:44,039
poison the well, spoil the possibility of having that debate.

421
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, he he had. He had crashed out on me

422
00:19:48,759 --> 00:19:50,559
the week before that. He had crashed down on somebody

423
00:19:50,599 --> 00:19:54,119
else the week before that, And I was privately talking

424
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:55,519
to him, like trying to get him to walk off

425
00:19:55,519 --> 00:19:58,200
certain ledges because it was like a consistent that's my

426
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,640
experience of like, hey man, like I'm not trying to

427
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:02,200
attack you.

428
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:03,079
Speaker 3: Like if my.

429
00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:07,279
Speaker 1: Audience asks what do I think about this thing that happened, right,

430
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,279
I'm going to talk about it. If you don't want

431
00:20:09,319 --> 00:20:11,359
me talking about it, I won't ever talk about you again.

432
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:12,759
I won't put you in a thumbnail, I won't do

433
00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:14,279
any of that sort of stuff. And then he's like, no, no, no,

434
00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:15,759
it's all good. It's all good, brother, thank you for

435
00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:17,799
reaching out. And we had a really good conversation and

436
00:20:17,799 --> 00:20:19,640
then it just it just completely went left, and it's

437
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,200
like bipolar, Like, yeah, there's something going on there. The

438
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,240
stuff that he said, though, seems to have crossed some

439
00:20:26,319 --> 00:20:28,599
lines I've never seen him cross before, where he started

440
00:20:28,599 --> 00:20:30,920
talking about your wife he started, I mean, he really

441
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,839
jumped out the window. And so that's some wild stuff

442
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:39,400
that I just had never I've never like there's certain

443
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,839
stuff this is just off limits, you know, And how

444
00:20:42,839 --> 00:20:44,519
did you process that? And at that point where you

445
00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:46,240
just kind of like, oh, this is something else. He's

446
00:20:46,279 --> 00:20:49,319
having a mental health episode and I just need to

447
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:50,960
leave him alone. Was that kind of your temperament more

448
00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:52,680
or less? Yeah, And I don't mean that in a

449
00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:53,440
mocking way.

450
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,559
Speaker 2: I think actually there is some kind of like a

451
00:20:55,599 --> 00:20:57,880
probably a bipolar thing going on. And I know he

452
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,359
said I had a tough time with his situation, which

453
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,720
I don't talk about people's personal drama usually.

454
00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 3: I don't know about what's going on with him.

455
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 2: But I think that sometimes people have kind of like

456
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,359
what we talked about earlier with Alex, like there might

457
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,519
be something going on personally, and then that affects sort

458
00:21:13,559 --> 00:21:17,680
of the internet optics and how they're operating on the internet.

459
00:21:17,839 --> 00:21:19,960
So I mean that would be my guest, but I

460
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:20,319
don't know.

461
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, in that I defended you because Redeem Zoomer I

462
00:21:24,599 --> 00:21:27,079
think responded to something I defended you, and I said, hey,

463
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,480
like Jay's been nothing but kind in our interactions privately

464
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,000
and publicly, and I think like Sam's crossed the line.

465
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,920
And then people started replying to me and are like, well,

466
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,119
Jay is not always the kindness and he's not always

467
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:43,319
the nicest. And there was a thing about something about

468
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,799
Coptic Christians and you were mocking Coptic Christians that were martyrd.

469
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,519
Speaker 2: I didn't mock anything. I questioned the legitimacy of the

470
00:21:50,599 --> 00:21:55,880
video because mainstream news article's sad that the videos are questionable.

471
00:21:56,279 --> 00:21:58,519
So all I did was repeat what was in the news,

472
00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:01,599
and I didn't say for sure nobody had. I just said,

473
00:22:01,599 --> 00:22:03,920
we don't know on the basis of just this piece

474
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,880
of evidence, got it. So I've always thought like there's

475
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,920
nothing wrong being skeptical about authoritative claims and sources. And

476
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,799
if you look at where those videos come out of,

477
00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:14,359
there are dubious sources.

478
00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:15,319
Speaker 3: But I don't know.

479
00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 2: So people assume that, oh, I'm saying for sure that

480
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,519
nobody's ever been martyred, nobody's ever been killed.

481
00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 3: No.

482
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 2: I was just taking a skeptical attitude. And I still

483
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,960
take skeptical attitudes to when I see an immediate fluid

484
00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:32,960
situation where something's developing just happening. I'm not going to

485
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,720
immediately buy into it. I'm going to wait and see.

486
00:22:36,839 --> 00:22:38,079
And I've always had that attitude.

487
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:38,559
Speaker 3: Got it.

488
00:22:39,559 --> 00:22:43,559
Speaker 1: So from our vantage point, for my vantage point, one

489
00:22:43,559 --> 00:22:46,799
of the things that we hold I guess in pretty

490
00:22:46,839 --> 00:22:50,200
high regard fruit of the spirit, right, kindness, gentleness.

491
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 3: Jesus says that the world.

492
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: Will know that you are my disciples about how you

493
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,240
love one another and treat one another right. And so

494
00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:59,599
some of the critique about you is that you're not

495
00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:01,720
always the most kind, You're not always the most gentle,

496
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,440
You're not always the most loving. I understand as a

497
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,240
constant creator, you're on stream eight hours a day. We've

498
00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:08,839
talked about some of the stuff privately which we don't

499
00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:10,319
need to get into in terms of like some weird

500
00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:12,400
kind of death threats and that sort of stuff that

501
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,240
comes up for creators. And you've said, here, hey, man,

502
00:23:16,279 --> 00:23:19,720
like I've had to go to confession for losing my temper.

503
00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:21,799
Sure do you think that that's a that's a fair

504
00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:23,839
critique of Jay Dyer. Jay Dyer isn't the most kind,

505
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,240
he's not the most gentle, And is that kind of

506
00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:28,240
why you're like, hey, like, I'm not an Eastern Orthodox

507
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,240
poster child online, Like, I'm a guy who's in a

508
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,160
variety of things in Eastern Orthodoxy is one of them.

509
00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:36,839
Speaker 2: I think in the realm of debate, you're going to

510
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,680
have situations that get heated and yeah, I've lost my temper.

511
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 3: I don't know. Like, but if you think.

512
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,599
Speaker 2: About in terms of eight years of online debating, and

513
00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:50,960
most of those are like three, four or five hour discussions,

514
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,920
and if you've got like a handful of instances out

515
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,599
of hundreds, maybe thousands of hours, I don't see that

516
00:23:58,680 --> 00:23:59,160
as like.

517
00:24:00,319 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 3: The end of the world.

518
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,799
Speaker 2: It's like you're you're ignoring the ninety five percent of

519
00:24:04,839 --> 00:24:08,720
the time where we're having cortial conversations in our actions.

520
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 3: Q and A.

521
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,039
Speaker 2: Another thing too is like if you've done debates for many,

522
00:24:13,039 --> 00:24:16,640
many years, you can a lot of times pretty quickly

523
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,039
since when somebody's debating a good faith or whether they're trolling,

524
00:24:20,599 --> 00:24:22,400
and if you open it up to the public for

525
00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:25,000
hours a week, which is what we do, I mean,

526
00:24:25,079 --> 00:24:26,720
you're going to have a lot of people who come

527
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,680
in bad faith trolling. They immediately start talking about your wife.

528
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,720
Mayby just start talking about your you know, would you

529
00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:34,599
do ten years ago when you said this, you know,

530
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,519
it's like that's evidence is a bad faith. And so

531
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,720
usually I'm pretty heavy handed about just booting or moving on.

532
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:42,839
So a lot of people take that as old look

533
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,759
so mean, he just boots people if you're not a

534
00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:50,000
serious debater for open forum, like it's just wasting everybody's time.

535
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 3: So that's going on.

536
00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 2: You've got people who don't understand that even in classical

537
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,160
pedagogy of debate, rhetoric is part of it. So making jokes,

538
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,920
making jabs, that's part of rhetoric and debate. It doesn't

539
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,240
mean that your whole stick or debate is rhetoric. In

540
00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:10,160
jabs or else, it will be evident that you don't

541
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,599
have any substance to the argument.

542
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: Right.

543
00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: But if you can watch a classical debate like Hitchens

544
00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:18,640
on the Oxford Union, you'll see him doing a presentation

545
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,440
and every four or five minutes throwing in a joke,

546
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,839
a jab my opponent. Of course, he's never studied this,

547
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,079
so you wouldn't know. But these are little jabs that

548
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,279
are just it's just rhetoric. That's part of debate. But

549
00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:30,720
a lot of people don't know that, and so they

550
00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:33,799
they'll latch onto something like that, or but I also

551
00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:36,480
have a side of me that's not the debate world,

552
00:25:36,519 --> 00:25:42,200
which is comedy, impressions, skits. We've been doing that for years,

553
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,000
and so I might make fun of somebody like Lofton

554
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,279
or something like that, and then that's scene as oh,

555
00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:49,880
that's so mean, that's so mean, But then everybody else

556
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:50,440
makes jokes.

557
00:25:50,799 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 3: It's like, what would you say the line is?

558
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: Is the line at like calling somebody an idiot like

559
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,279
I've seen people.

560
00:25:56,039 --> 00:25:57,599
Speaker 3: Send me closely. I don't even think that's like.

561
00:25:57,759 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: I mean, if Proverbs says you can identify, well, I

562
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,920
don't see why it's it's not. Jesus says not to

563
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,519
call a person a fool without reason. But I mean,

564
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,519
how could I if Proverbs tell me to avoid the fool, how.

565
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 3: Could I avoid the full? I don't identify the fool?

566
00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 2: But no, I think you know, if you look at

567
00:26:13,319 --> 00:26:16,880
Jesus's like even the way Jesus approaches debates. He talks

568
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,839
about the Pharisees as vipers. He talks about Herod being

569
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:25,680
a fox, which is derogatory term, but it's not the majority, right,

570
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,400
So I would say, you know what is Paul said,

571
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,599
let your let your speech be grace, sprinkle with salt.

572
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,359
So yeah, if there's some times there's some salt, but

573
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,039
it's not that it doesn't dominate.

574
00:26:35,519 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: Do you think it's because they're remote, that the conversations

575
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,759
are remote, that that's why it's hard, Like I avoid

576
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,359
anything remote virtual because I know myself and I know

577
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,920
I'm way more likely to get nasty or to get

578
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,319
combative online online than if like me and you are

579
00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:55,119
having a steak and hanging out the night before and

580
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:56,119
then we're having a conversation.

581
00:26:57,039 --> 00:26:59,039
Speaker 3: There's definitely a veil of.

582
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: Nastiness that can't like because of the Internet, there's a veil,

583
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,240
and people can get nasty definitely in a way that

584
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,119
they wouldn't in person.

585
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 3: For sure, that definitely happens.

586
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: But also like that, when we did the live debate

587
00:27:13,039 --> 00:27:15,559
in Nashville, we had that three way debate with me

588
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,200
Catholic and a Protestant. It was still heated and aggressive

589
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,480
and there was jabs. There was jokes on all sides.

590
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,559
So it doesn't necessarily mean that they won't be heated,

591
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,640
but it might not get out of hand in person.

592
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:29,039
Speaker 3: For sure.

593
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you're pretty buff, dude. You probably you

594
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,880
probably beat me up pretty pretty good. So I don't

595
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,039
know if I want to like, I.

596
00:27:35,039 --> 00:27:37,079
Speaker 3: Don't know about that. Let me see.

597
00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:40,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think I think for me, some of

598
00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:43,279
the debate stuff is interesting. It's definitely great entertainment. I

599
00:27:43,319 --> 00:27:43,839
will say that.

600
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,519
Speaker 2: Let me add to that, Like in the formal debates, Yes,

601
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,519
I can only think of one or two of maybe

602
00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:55,119
twenty five formal debates where I called somebody dumb or

603
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:55,599
an idiot.

604
00:27:55,839 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 3: If you haven't call anyone's mother or whore, to your credit,

605
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:05,319
now you've never called anyone's mother who I mean.

606
00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:08,279
Speaker 2: In the informal debates, like I take the attitude I

607
00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:12,519
tell people like, yeah, you're you're not here as the

608
00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:15,960
expert debater. You're here as the nube, but calling in sure,

609
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,759
and you're gonna be held to the standard that anyone

610
00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:19,400
else to be held to because I've been debating for

611
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,880
twenty five years. You're not gonna like yeah. So it's

612
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,079
a different modus operanda than when it's a formal debate

613
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,400
with moderator and timed situation. And if you go watch

614
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,359
any of the Muslim debates except for maybe Sneako and

615
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,519
Muslim Lantern, I think I called him an idiot once

616
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,920
in that debate, but all the other ones are pretty

617
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:36,920
like they're heated.

618
00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:41,839
Speaker 3: But I don't think there's any violations of yeah, now

619
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,759
that makes sense. I think I think the yeah.

620
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,359
Speaker 1: I just I've just made it a point to stay

621
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,200
away from anything remote, and anytime I break that rule.

622
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,440
Anytime I break that rule, I end up crashing out,

623
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,240
and I like stupid in my in my experience, I

624
00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:59,240
just had Alex O'Connor calling remotely and I was not

625
00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:01,359
pumped with how I you know, I.

626
00:29:01,359 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 3: Just yeah versus like debate.

627
00:29:04,599 --> 00:29:07,759
Speaker 1: It was about the Isaiah word for word debacle with

628
00:29:07,799 --> 00:29:10,440
Wes Huff and he was really like, but it technically

629
00:29:10,519 --> 00:29:14,319
wasn't word for word, And I'm like, Alex, but ninety

630
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,079
nine percent word for word, you know, nearly word for

631
00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:18,799
word might as well be word for word. If a

632
00:29:18,839 --> 00:29:20,960
compass ninety five percent full, it's full to me, like

633
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,000
we're arguing semantics. Since I just didn't like how I

634
00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:27,640
how I represented myself and how I represented my faith.

635
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,359
And then in that, by the grace of God, he

636
00:29:31,359 --> 00:29:33,400
came to our summit, a first summit, and I felt

637
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,599
like we hit it off, and I think it was hopefully,

638
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,720
you know, some redemptive qualities on my part in that.

639
00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:43,279
And then when we made the last video response to

640
00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:45,559
him conversation with Red, I just try to give gave

641
00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:46,839
him a heads up and like, hey man, we're gonna

642
00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:48,519
have some fun with this intro, Like there's gonna be

643
00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:50,240
some jokes and that sort of stuff, you know. But yeah,

644
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,119
I've just never had a great consentious conversation virtually. That's

645
00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:57,759
that's gone over, and I've just tried to avoid avoid

646
00:29:57,799 --> 00:29:59,559
it like the plague, because the last thing I want

647
00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:02,599
to do is may what I'm representing look bad, you know.

648
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,799
So one of the things I did appreciate you about

649
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:10,119
you is when we had our disagreement. The disagreement initially

650
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,079
was about I think I reacted to a Gavin Ortland

651
00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:17,359
video about why I'm a Protestant. I think in there

652
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,839
I probably said some stuff wrong about the councils. You

653
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,880
made a response video, and then somewhere in there we

654
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:26,599
talked and we agree that we'll have you on, we'll

655
00:30:26,599 --> 00:30:30,880
have an in person conversation. And then someone was feeding

656
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,079
you information that I kept talking about you, and then

657
00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:36,279
I was like, no, Jay, like when we talked, I

658
00:30:36,279 --> 00:30:38,680
haven't mentioned you since I haven't said anything about you. Actually,

659
00:30:38,839 --> 00:30:40,160
any time we talked about you now it is usually

660
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,480
pretty funny because we're always referencing in the middle class

661
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,799
and feel, so whatever's talking about you, it's always positive.

662
00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:47,960
And in that I sent you the time stamp and

663
00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:49,720
I showed to you like, hey, this was such as

664
00:30:50,119 --> 00:30:52,200
and to your credit, you were like very gracious and

665
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,759
you apologize publicly, and I was like, man like that.

666
00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:58,720
I wasn't expecting you to do that, Like your lore

667
00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:02,160
on the internet was not what it was. And the

668
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,519
way you carried yourself in our disagreement, in the way

669
00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:07,640
you you you handle yourself, and I really appreciated that,

670
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,319
and I was like, I think Jay's is a good

671
00:31:09,319 --> 00:31:11,160
faith guy. Like I think we can disagree, but he's

672
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,960
a good faith guy. And so our disagreement initially, you

673
00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:18,720
know way more about church history than I do, and

674
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,680
you know way about way more about the creeds and

675
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,400
all that stuff than I do. I think the the

676
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,480
what I was trying to say in that initial video

677
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,039
and that was gosh, it's over a year ago, was

678
00:31:28,119 --> 00:31:30,599
in that second Council and you could you could refresh

679
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,839
me is the word anathema? The second Icing council seems

680
00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:40,559
to be cutting off anyone that doesn't what's what's the

681
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:47,640
word venerate icons right as anathema, not as in you're

682
00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:51,200
just outside of the church, you are now outside of salvation,

683
00:31:51,759 --> 00:31:53,559
that you're no longer saved.

684
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 3: And I and.

685
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,079
Speaker 1: I think that that's a pretty harsh stance. And I

686
00:31:57,079 --> 00:31:59,440
think that depending on which Orthodox person I'm talking to,

687
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,319
it's always is kind of getting different answers, right, So

688
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,119
Father Hairs were more or less kind of like, hey, like,

689
00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:09,400
I don't know if you're in, Like I don't think

690
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,200
you're in, right, And then I talked to other guys

691
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,880
and they hit me with the we know where God's

692
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:13,400
spirit is.

693
00:32:13,559 --> 00:32:15,839
Speaker 3: We don't know where God's spirit is, you know.

694
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: And so from your vantage point that word anathema in

695
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,880
that second council about icons, which, by the way, I

696
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,880
love your guys as icons, I think you guys crush

697
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,680
it with art. Yeah, I got yeah, that's Jonathan Pego Like,

698
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,119
I love I love the art. I love the icons

699
00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:34,759
like I love it. I've gone to Eastern Orthodox. Where's

700
00:32:34,759 --> 00:32:36,240
the last thing I went to? It was one of

701
00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:39,319
your guys's vespers. Is that what it's called? Yeah, the vesper.

702
00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:41,319
So I love it all. I am just in a

703
00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:44,440
spot where like I couldn't, I can't and probably couldn't

704
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,119
bring myself to bow or kiss icons. But I don't

705
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,079
mind if you're saying, hey, we're not buying it. It's

706
00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:53,480
not idle worship. I get the arguments, this is transcendent,

707
00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:57,799
this is windows in the heaven. But that line of

708
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:03,680
anathema sounds like like if you're not within orthodoxy, you're

709
00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:07,119
you were not saved. Is that your position is that

710
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,000
the accurate position is at the historical position?

711
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: I would agree with at least what I've not heard

712
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,160
the interview with other hearers, But the way that you

713
00:33:14,319 --> 00:33:17,200
stated what his position was, I would probably agree with that.

714
00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:21,319
Like we don't make judgments about individuals, and like I

715
00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:23,559
don't know your destiny, I don't know the work of

716
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,960
God's spirit in your heart. I do believe that, like

717
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:29,559
the thief on the cross, God has the ability, through

718
00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:32,920
extra normative means, to join anybody to the mystical body

719
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,240
in the ways that he sees fit. And you know,

720
00:33:35,319 --> 00:33:37,759
Paul says that it's not our position to judge those

721
00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:40,720
that are without, we judge those that are within. Yeah, yeah,

722
00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:43,880
So we don't usually take the attitude of like individual.

723
00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:45,519
And I think that if you look at the way

724
00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:48,359
that the Icon Council speaks of it, and the way

725
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,759
that even Roman Catholics kind of have the same attitude,

726
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,839
where they'll say, for example, we condemn this proposition, like

727
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,960
the medieval people teaching had this tendency to say, if

728
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,079
you believe this, this is a condemned proposition. But also

729
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,680
in orthoxology, the idea of heresy, it's not just being wrong,

730
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,239
it's also a person that is obstinate and wilful. So

731
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,199
we don't really nearly call everyone a heretic. Like my

732
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,599
Baptist grandmother isn't necessarily a heretic because she's wrong. Heresy

733
00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:20,719
has to do with wilful and knowing obstinacy against what

734
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,039
we believe is the true position.

735
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,039
Speaker 1: So is that why you guys may call a Gavin

736
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:28,719
Ortlund a herod? I would say, so you would say, so, okay,

737
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:34,559
in your framework, would you say your Baptist grandmother is

738
00:34:34,599 --> 00:34:36,760
going to hell? No? I don't, but I'm saying I

739
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,239
don't know an individual level, you don't know. But in

740
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,159
a technical church, this person is like an obstinate, like

741
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,239
promoter and teacher. It's like that in that situation, yes,

742
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,880
they would be committing what we would say is a sin,

743
00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:53,199
and that cuts a person off. And so is everyone

744
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,320
who's committing said sin condemned eternally. Or you're saying we

745
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,280
don't know on an individual level, but we will from

746
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:00,360
our theology our.

747
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: Vantage like we can't judge that person because God's the

748
00:35:04,519 --> 00:35:08,320
ultimate judge. But our position is more like it's a

749
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,960
warning of it's a it's a chastisement, right, And like

750
00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:16,039
the anathema pronouncements themselves.

751
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 3: Are you going to sing that anathema song? More?

752
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:24,599
Speaker 2: There are chastisements like warnings. So even the church can't

753
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,519
like damn a person. We can just say if you

754
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,920
follow and take that position, it can lead to shipwreck

755
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,880
and you're outside. But there's always but it's it's it's

756
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,280
it can lead to shipwreck. It's intended to be remedial,

757
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,719
is what I'm trying to say. Anathema is intended to

758
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,960
be remedial in the sense of it's a medicine.

759
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 3: It's a chastisement to call you back. But what if

760
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:50,920
not like.

761
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,199
Speaker 1: Well, if I'm not in, like what if I am

762
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,239
not in what if I've never been Eastern Orthodox, I

763
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,159
grew up Oriental Orthodox, not but you know about my

764
00:35:58,159 --> 00:36:01,320
back I yeah, so I've I've never been in So

765
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:02,239
am I anathema?

766
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 3: Again? Like?

767
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like the position that you hold is anathema. But

768
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,159
I can't judge the state of your soul because I

769
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:12,679
don't know the state of your soul. I don't know

770
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,119
your destiny. I don't God's not given me that assessment.

771
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: But if I perpetuate on in the trajectory that I'm

772
00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:22,760
in right now, yes, and I don't become Eastern Orthodox

773
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,159
before the end of my life, or I think this

774
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:27,760
is a nuance and you can correct me if I'm wrong,

775
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,400
because I don't want to misrepresent your sing Or there

776
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,679
isn't some sort of mystical working that kind of grafts

777
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,800
me into being Orthodox without officially being Orthodox? Can I

778
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,840
be Orthodox without take being a catecumen?

779
00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:41,639
Speaker 2: Again, like the thief on the Cross, he wasn't like

780
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,119
instructed in all the theology, but he had a genuine

781
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,639
repentance and a genuine joining to the body of Christ.

782
00:36:48,119 --> 00:36:51,599
So it's not so much like that you have to

783
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:57,119
have this vast theological knowledge. It's rather an attitude of

784
00:36:57,199 --> 00:36:59,880
humility and repentance that the thief on the cross had.

785
00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:03,559
So so that and for us salvation, as I'm sure

786
00:37:03,559 --> 00:37:05,400
you know, it's not like just a one point in

787
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,199
such thing. It's like there was salvation, it is ongoing,

788
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,400
and there's an eschatological salvation. So yeah, it's three senses

789
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:12,800
to that.

790
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 3: Okay. So is this similar to like voice or reason,

791
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:22,760
your familiar voice of reason. It's just an impression. He

792
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,199
has the best voice voice of Reason made it.

793
00:37:26,199 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: Never he said something along the lines of anyone who

794
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,159
rejects the dogmas of the church is rejecting Christ himself.

795
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,360
He says something like that, and then those Mary Mary

796
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,480
and dogmas would fall into that. And so I hit

797
00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:39,920
him up and I said, hey, man, like I really

798
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,199
struggle with their later Marian document, Like I don't have

799
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:43,920
a problem with people calling Mary the Mother of God,

800
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,159
but like the later stuff, right, which was you you

801
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,199
probably know, it's better like a macalal conception and assumption assumption,

802
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,519
like the stuff that they made eighteen hundreds.

803
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it wasn't later like nineteen fifty nineteen eighteen hundreds.

804
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,599
Speaker 2: Well, there is a second maculate conception, and then there

805
00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:01,400
is I think you're right that.

806
00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:04,679
Speaker 1: There's later Marian dogmas. I think someone will correct me

807
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,599
in the chat for that. Anyway, I just said, hey, man,

808
00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:09,119
like I struggle to get behind these, are you saying

809
00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:11,480
that I'm outside of the church and he gave me

810
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,280
the gosh? What is the language? It's like the wilful consent,

811
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,079
Like you have to willfully consent to rejecting dogmas you

812
00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:20,559
know are truth.

813
00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying that that's what a heretic is.

814
00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:26,199
It's a wilful obstinacy against knowing the truth.

815
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 3: Okay, that's fair.

816
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: But then if I'm a Protestant and I'm wilfully not

817
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,960
trying to reject God, I don't hate God. I love Jesus,

818
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,000
And with the information that I have, I'm doing my

819
00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:41,480
very best to source through this stuff. I'm very in

820
00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:45,360
my verstor to reason to look at the information that's

821
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,159
in front of me to come to reasonable conclusions with

822
00:38:48,199 --> 00:38:52,079
what I see in scriptures. Wouldn't that categorically not put

823
00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:55,039
me in someone that is wilfully rebelling against God.

824
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 3: I don't know the state of it, That's what I'm saying.

825
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,440
We don't know. I don't know the state of your soul.

826
00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: Okay, that's fair, that's fair. I mean it's a similar

827
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,159
argument I get from the Catholic.

828
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think we would agree with that basic idea.

829
00:39:05,639 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: And at that point, like all I can do is say,

830
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,760
you know, we would employ you to be Orthodox.

831
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,079
Speaker 1: And so so from your vantage point, you would you

832
00:39:16,079 --> 00:39:19,760
would be willing to plant the flag firmly in that

833
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,480
salvation does not exist outside of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

834
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,159
Speaker 2: Correct, and that the only if anyone is saved, it's

835
00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:30,760
not because they're a Protestant or a Catholic or whatever,

836
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:31,880
it's because.

837
00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:33,599
Speaker 3: There's a mystical salvation in some way.

838
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: United them, like the thief on lacross to the mystical body,

839
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:36,719
which is the Orthodox Church.

840
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: What if all Protestants and all Catholics are secretly united

841
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,360
to the mystical Body of Christ and we just don't

842
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:42,639
know it.

843
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 3: I don't. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense.

844
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,480
I'm just throwing it out there. You know. I'm just listen, man.

845
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 2: I because you're you're looking for like a categorical all

846
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:52,679
and I'm saying that on.

847
00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:55,599
Speaker 3: A case by case basis. It's between possible individually, but

848
00:39:55,639 --> 00:39:57,400
it's between that person and God and God and from

849
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,800
our vantage point, that's why anathema is just like in

850
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,639
the a macatholic pable position where they can them a

851
00:40:01,639 --> 00:40:04,960
proposition like the anathema is against Like they didn't say,

852
00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:08,679
like list every layman who's a part of like an

853
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:09,719
iconoclass church.

854
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: They say, if you believe this anathema, what happened to

855
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,519
those iconic class churches? Did they all just die or

856
00:40:16,559 --> 00:40:19,239
did they go on? Did they like so?

857
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:19,599
Speaker 3: After?

858
00:40:19,679 --> 00:40:22,079
Speaker 2: And I see it too in sevent eighty seven, there

859
00:40:22,159 --> 00:40:24,440
was about a almost one hundred year period where you

860
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,400
had the dominance of the iconoclass, and then there was

861
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,119
what's called triumph of Orthodoxy in eight forty three.

862
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,519
Speaker 3: It was at the second nineteen Council or okay, and

863
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:34,920
I see it two as seven eighty seven.

864
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: Okay, So it says that the iconodual position is the

865
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,239
right position, Okay, But the iconic class and the conoclass

866
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,920
emperors kept going, kept going, and they like shut down

867
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,920
and got rid of the icons Okay in eight forty three,

868
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,559
almost one hundred year maybe seventy five years later, right

869
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,519
fifty seventy five years later that you have what's called

870
00:40:54,559 --> 00:40:58,000
the triumph of Orthodoxy Council. It's a local Byzantine synod,

871
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,599
but that's the synod that's considered to be the reaffirmation

872
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,639
and the restoration of the Icons. That's where the Anathemas

873
00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:09,760
service comes out of. And what's called the Sonata Kon

874
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,079
of Orthodoxy, which has this long it's a service that's

875
00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:15,440
done in the Orthodox churches. That's the one I'll know

876
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,480
where you actually it actually sings out and it's a

877
00:41:19,519 --> 00:41:23,800
liturgical celebration mentioning all these various heretics and the victory

878
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,440
of the Church over areas and the areas, and it

879
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,079
even mentions Platonism, it mentions Aristotle, it mentions Origin.

880
00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 3: They're covering all their basins with that one.

881
00:41:33,679 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: So that kind of class church, those folks that were

882
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,840
against the Icons for that one hundred years.

883
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,679
Speaker 3: What happens to this, well it's even prior to that.

884
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, what happens to those folks? Like did they cease

885
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,239
being a church? Did they just kind of right off

886
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,360
into nothingness? Like what happens? I mean they ended up

887
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:51,760
dying out. It ended updying out.

888
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: Okay, So to me, to my knowledge, I'm not aware

889
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,199
of like after eight forty three, like any. I mean,

890
00:41:57,199 --> 00:41:59,559
there could have been some groups that.

891
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,199
Speaker 3: They were they like completely against any images.

892
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: No.

893
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 2: In fact, they believed that the only legitimate images were,

894
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,440
if I'm going from memory, the Cross and the Eucharist.

895
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: They were pretty much against art, though generally speak it

896
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,360
sounds like they were against all forms of art and depictions.

897
00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 3: Uh.

898
00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:21,679
Speaker 2: The basis for the arugmentation was Neoplatonism and the arguments

899
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,079
that origin made got it. So they were Originists and

900
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:31,079
neoplatonic got it. So in terms of by the way,

901
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,480
one interesting side note on that is that the majority

902
00:42:34,559 --> 00:42:41,360
of the people promoting iconoclasm were the normative bishops, that

903
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,159
the some of the prominent patriarchs and the emperor, and

904
00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:50,159
the restoration of icons came about from the laity and

905
00:42:50,199 --> 00:42:50,920
the monastics.

906
00:42:51,119 --> 00:42:53,639
Speaker 3: That is interesting that that it was was a lay movement.

907
00:42:54,559 --> 00:42:58,159
Speaker 2: Interesting Okay, So it wasn't all bishops that were iconoclasts, right,

908
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,360
but it was large. The iconoclass was dominated by the

909
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,280
emperor and the iconic class bishops and patriarchs got it.

910
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:05,519
Speaker 3: Okay. That's interesting.

911
00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: So as someone that's looking from the outside end, right,

912
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,119
I grow up our Oriental orthodox, I become a Protestant later,

913
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,280
I love Jesus, I'm in a church, I leave my family,

914
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,239
all all those sorts of things, and someone's looking at

915
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:21,400
what is the one true church?

916
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 3: Right?

917
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: You believe the East Orthodox is the one true church?

918
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,239
Now are you Russian Orthodoxy a real court church?

919
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: Okay? I was.

920
00:43:28,119 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 2: I came in under antiochins and twenty seventeen, but they're

921
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,920
all unified as as one communion e and then I

922
00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:36,719
became I went to start of going to roal Court

923
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,639
Church where I found Master as of father in twenty eighteen.

924
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 3: Twenty eighteen.

925
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,039
Speaker 1: Okay, So is this some disagreement between the Russian Orthodox

926
00:43:44,039 --> 00:43:45,679
and the others over the Ukraine thing?

927
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,119
Speaker 2: Or is that so the EP which is the patriarch

928
00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:52,719
concept ANDOPLE is still in the status of not being

929
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:57,199
inconmunion with the MP and I forget which it kind

930
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,280
of fluctuates as to what the other patriarch it's status says,

931
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,039
because for example, Jerusalem at one point was pro MP

932
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,800
and then I think they switched due to US pressure

933
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,320
from the State Department to pro EP interest.

934
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,199
Speaker 3: So yeah, but a little side note, this has happened before.

935
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: It's not like a yeah yeah, So so earlier you

936
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,880
were saying how you you would categorize a Gavin Ortland

937
00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:28,360
as a heritage Yeah, James White, James White, pretty much

938
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,639
all Protestant teachers. It sounds like, so, then how do

939
00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:34,119
you feel about Gavin being a father? Josiah's conference in October,

940
00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:35,280
they're like a marriage conference.

941
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:35,559
Speaker 3: I don't.

942
00:44:35,679 --> 00:44:38,679
Speaker 2: I mean, like, I'm not gonna judge, Like having a

943
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,719
conference is like, I mean, I'm here talking to you

944
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,920
and we disagree theologically. I mean, I don't know that

945
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,639
you're a heretic because I don't I have not heard

946
00:44:45,679 --> 00:44:48,079
a lot of your opinions or views, or I don't

947
00:44:48,079 --> 00:44:52,000
know whether you're obstinate or not. I think it because

948
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,960
it's a case by case basis. It takes time to

949
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,079
see and to know, like what that person's positions are.

950
00:44:57,159 --> 00:44:59,559
Speaker 3: How much do they know? That's why I don't.

951
00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 2: We don't throw the term heretic out willie nilly, like, oh,

952
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,440
everyone's a heretic, because it's a case by case basis.

953
00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:10,800
But there is a distinction between that and what's called

954
00:45:11,199 --> 00:45:12,280
the public profession.

955
00:45:13,039 --> 00:45:13,639
Speaker 3: So that's why.

956
00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: Again, just like the Remancatholices did this, the Orthodox Church

957
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,480
also says if you believe this position anathema, so it's

958
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,880
condemning the proposition because we don't know every individual person's

959
00:45:26,119 --> 00:45:29,960
level of knowledge and status and culpability's right, So not

960
00:45:30,039 --> 00:45:32,079
everybody's equally culpable, It's what I'm trying to say. But

961
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:35,039
from your vantage point, someone that's a heretic showing up

962
00:45:35,119 --> 00:45:38,159
to an Eastern Orthodox conference is not a big deal.

963
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,280
I only ask because like in my circles in Protestant

964
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,960
and if you're doing anything with charismatics, like they're all

965
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,119
everyone's a heretic that that's flinched around all the time,

966
00:45:48,519 --> 00:45:53,400
and so I end up having friends from these different pockets,

967
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,719
and then it's like the guilty by association fallacy, like, oh, well,

968
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,679
you're friends with this person, therefore you're endorsing every Yet

969
00:46:00,159 --> 00:46:04,159
so maybe to answer that question very easily, So the

970
00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:07,079
way that this is governed in the Orthodox world is

971
00:46:07,159 --> 00:46:09,159
kind of someone in the Roman Caolic world, but we

972
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,440
have different canon law, okay, And so in the Orthodox world,

973
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:18,679
church law or canon law delineates the boundaries for what

974
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,119
you can do or how far you could go. With

975
00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:28,599
somebody heterodox having conferences, writing a book, this kind of stuff,

976
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,320
presenting papers at an academic conference, nobody cares about that.

977
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:38,880
The canons define that I can't go to your church

978
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,280
service and worship.

979
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 3: Could you just come to my church service if.

980
00:46:43,159 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 2: I had permission from my spiritual father. For example, let's

981
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,000
say you had a creationist come and do a lecture,

982
00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:51,880
and we believe in creationism, right, I could probably do that.

983
00:46:52,199 --> 00:46:56,199
I just can't engage in public liturgical worship with you

984
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,440
or at your church, but you could come to our church.

985
00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:02,840
You could come and worship at our church or participate

986
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,400
or visit or whatever. That happens all the time.

987
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 3: And do you guys view canon law as infallible.

988
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,159
Speaker 2: No, it's just the normative governing principles of church law

989
00:47:11,199 --> 00:47:14,920
that bishops apply to case by case. So it's called

990
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,719
economia right, the case by case basis.

991
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,599
Speaker 3: And can different bishops supply different canon law?

992
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,159
Speaker 2: Yes, because everybody's case is different, like for example, reception

993
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,199
of converts. Right, A person who for example, was say

994
00:47:28,199 --> 00:47:32,199
baptized as a Armenian Orthodox or a Coptic or something

995
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:36,800
like that, Like many bishops would not do the baptism

996
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,719
because they had a Trinitarian baptism, and so they might

997
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,119
be received by christmation or just abjuration of air or whatever.

998
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 1: I've heard that was a distinguishment between some folks that

999
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,119
were baptized as Protestants don't need to get rebaptized. Other

1000
00:47:49,119 --> 00:47:51,320
folks that do get baptized do need to givest. So

1001
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,119
it's like a like a local regional bishop, I guess.

1002
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 3: Case by case, yes, and the church the highest authorities

1003
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,920
a bishop, okay. And so how bishops are there in

1004
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:04,119
the world, Yeah, like.

1005
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,159
Speaker 1: Tens of thousands, okay, thousands of bishops and they're over

1006
00:48:09,159 --> 00:48:10,119
different regions.

1007
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 3: They have a jurisdiction theistic But I.

1008
00:48:14,159 --> 00:48:16,559
Speaker 1: Mean, is it like there's a bishop of California, so

1009
00:48:16,559 --> 00:48:18,280
he oversees all the priests in California.

1010
00:48:19,079 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 2: In the US is different because US is a unique

1011
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,079
place where you have so many people coming from other

1012
00:48:24,119 --> 00:48:28,440
countries that you have overlapping jurisdictions, which has never really

1013
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,280
happened because usually in church history you have, for example,

1014
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:36,360
if Russia sends out missionaries, that becomes a jurisdictional territory

1015
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,840
of the Russian WANs Rock Church. But in America you

1016
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,960
have this melting pot and so many expatriates that you

1017
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,000
can be in New York and you have like twenty

1018
00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:48,039
overlapping you know, groups and yeah, so it's very confusing

1019
00:48:48,079 --> 00:48:48,840
in America.

1020
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 3: But back to the question of canon law.

1021
00:48:53,079 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: For example, in the six Secondmentical Council, there's canons to

1022
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,360
talk about certain Aryan groups. Their baptism was not even

1023
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,199
considered a baptism because it was Unitarian, because they were Arians,

1024
00:49:04,679 --> 00:49:08,320
and like that, let the saddleback guy baptizing yourself, we

1025
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,199
wouldn't recognize that as a baptism. So there has to

1026
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,280
be delineations and like case by case stuff.

1027
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 3: Gotcha, that makes sense.

1028
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: We had Gavin at my summit and or Eastern Orthodox

1029
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,239
friend of mine didn't want to attend because they couldn't

1030
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,639
get clearance from their spiritual father. But then once Father

1031
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,320
Josiah came and Deacon Christopher came. Decan Christopher's a legal

1032
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,480
local Eastern Orthodox guy, and his father Josiah came down,

1033
00:49:35,199 --> 00:49:38,199
then it was almost like, well, if there's someone higher

1034
00:49:38,199 --> 00:49:40,199
than me that is willing to come to an event,

1035
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,519
I probably could or I could come to the next one,

1036
00:49:43,599 --> 00:49:46,559
because there seems to be I guess an authority that could.

1037
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,480
You know, I don't want say endorse as Gavin, but

1038
00:49:48,559 --> 00:49:50,880
is willing to collaborate with Gavin Ortland, who I know

1039
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,639
within some Eastern Orthodox circles.

1040
00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:55,599
Speaker 2: You guys really don't like Gavin Orland. I don't personally

1041
00:49:55,679 --> 00:49:58,679
have an issue with him. The arguments I've heard of

1042
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,679
not not pretty very convinced it.

1043
00:50:00,639 --> 00:50:02,519
Speaker 3: Have you no? Okay?

1044
00:50:03,679 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So it sounds like you hold on, you hold

1045
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,760
to like Salvation does not exist outside of Eastern Orthodox Church.

1046
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,079
But it is possible that someone could have a mystical

1047
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,199
God can join people to God can join the Cross.

1048
00:50:18,039 --> 00:50:22,079
So then if someone is looking at which church to join,

1049
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,559
there's eight churches that all claim Apostolic succession and to

1050
00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:30,079
be the one true church. Right, I can't name them

1051
00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:32,679
all off the top, but I know Oriental Orthodox, right,

1052
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:33,440
so on and so forth.

1053
00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:35,679
Speaker 3: So they all claim to be the one true church.

1054
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: They all have Apostolic succession, but they're not all in

1055
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,639
communion with each other. How does someone decipher what is

1056
00:50:42,679 --> 00:50:46,000
the one and true church? If Salvation only exists in

1057
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:47,199
one true church.

1058
00:50:48,119 --> 00:50:51,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is a case where evidences and

1059
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,559
history are necessary. It's not going to be something a

1060
00:50:55,639 --> 00:50:58,599
priori or self evident. You would have to get into the.

1061
00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 3: History of the church. There's just really no other way

1062
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:00,800
around it.

1063
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,079
Speaker 2: So I think one thing that Roman Catholicism tries to

1064
00:51:04,119 --> 00:51:08,159
do is answer that question you just ask by putting

1065
00:51:08,199 --> 00:51:11,119
forward the idea of a pope as the easy solution.

1066
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, we got it, we got a pope. We got

1067
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,079
to put the guy problem solved. Right.

1068
00:51:15,119 --> 00:51:17,639
Speaker 2: But then if you're in the Romancolic world for a while,

1069
00:51:17,679 --> 00:51:20,039
as I was from many years, you begin to realize

1070
00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:23,440
that that wasn't as easily answered as I thought, because well,

1071
00:51:23,559 --> 00:51:26,119
I wait a minute, don't we have to also interpret

1072
00:51:26,199 --> 00:51:29,559
the pope's writings. And there's all these tiers of status

1073
00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:32,119
of well, this is magisterial and this is what you know,

1074
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,079
ordinary magisterium, and this is ordinary but not magisterium. And

1075
00:51:35,079 --> 00:51:37,360
so there's all these tiers, and it becomes a very

1076
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,159
laborious exercise when you have ten thousand pages of like

1077
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:47,199
papal stuff and councils to sift through versus what the

1078
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,039
car salesman approach to Roman Catholicism and the pop apologizes

1079
00:51:51,079 --> 00:51:55,679
world sells. So anyway, I lived at throughout my twenties,

1080
00:51:55,679 --> 00:51:59,159
and and that's a different issue. But I think the

1081
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,719
easiest way to answer the question you're asking is to

1082
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,480
look at the seven slash eight ecumenical councils of the

1083
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:06,159
first millennium.

1084
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 3: Do you hold to seven or eight?

1085
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: Well, the reason I say seven slash eight is that

1086
00:52:10,159 --> 00:52:13,480
the first seven are strictly theological, and they're the ones

1087
00:52:13,519 --> 00:52:16,039
that most people the Roman Catholic and Protestant world will

1088
00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:18,920
talk about the ecumenical councils. But no, we believe in

1089
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,679
nine if you count the Palomite Synods. And the reason

1090
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,639
the Palmite Synods are they've been received through the whole

1091
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:29,079
Orthodox canonical world as authoritative, even though they weren't ecumenical

1092
00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:32,360
in the sense of like all of the bishops and

1093
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,840
all the provinces or whatever. It was just a there

1094
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,119
were Byzantine Synods to discuss the theologies Saint Gregor Palomas

1095
00:52:40,199 --> 00:52:44,559
versus the Roman Catholic filioquis position. So for the for us,

1096
00:52:44,639 --> 00:52:49,079
those Palamite Synods just count as the ninth ecumenical council.

1097
00:52:49,639 --> 00:52:52,079
But we also have pan Orthodox Synods and things that

1098
00:52:52,119 --> 00:52:56,119
we also consider normative, even if they're not quote infallible.

1099
00:52:56,199 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 3: For us, it's like.

1100
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: It's like your local bishop isn't infallible, but he's a

1101
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,480
normative authority right same way that probably a Protestant would

1102
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,880
consider like a minister. Right, he has a normative authority,

1103
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,079
but he's not necessarily infallible.

1104
00:53:10,159 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1105
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you believe in authority outside of Scripture. We just

1106
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,679
don't believe in any infaci which you know that because

1107
00:53:16,679 --> 00:53:17,519
you were Protestant.

1108
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean uh.

1109
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:28,079
Speaker 2: In terms of delineating between so Anglicans, Coptics, Assyrians, Roman Catholics,

1110
00:53:28,639 --> 00:53:33,480
some Lutherans in Eastern Orthodox would all claim Apostolic succession,

1111
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,840
and we would admit that some of those groups, like

1112
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,880
Roman Catholics and Coptics are ancient, but it's a question

1113
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,239
of ecclesial authority in the history of the Church and

1114
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:48,679
what the ecumenical councils actually contain in their normative theology

1115
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:49,320
and process.

1116
00:53:49,679 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: So you would give Apostolic succession to Anglicans and Lutherans, No,

1117
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:54,400
not you.

1118
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:58,760
Speaker 3: I was just listening to the groups that claim it.

1119
00:53:58,920 --> 00:53:59,199
God is.

1120
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 2: The way to suss out between those would be to

1121
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,559
go to the councils themselves and see what the canons

1122
00:54:06,559 --> 00:54:10,480
teach and what the process of the councils was. For example,

1123
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,599
we believe in the North Shores. Really then appslite canons.

1124
00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:16,119
That's like the first collection of canon law. So that

1125
00:54:16,199 --> 00:54:19,639
lays down principles that were accepted throughout the East, including

1126
00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:23,000
the Duro Canon, and the way that the bishop is

1127
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,960
elected is local, so there's nothing to do for example,

1128
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,599
in napslite canons with the.

1129
00:54:28,199 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: Top top down, it's more bottom up. It sounds like yeah, yeah,

1130
00:54:31,639 --> 00:54:36,159
and it's episcopay that's decentralized. And that was the normative

1131
00:54:36,199 --> 00:54:37,599
church law in the East throughout.

1132
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,199
Speaker 3: The whole three hundreds.

1133
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 2: Same time in the West, when we look at the

1134
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,039
Western synods in church law, whether it's Council of Rome,

1135
00:54:44,079 --> 00:54:49,760
pop Damasists, Augustine, et cetera, Carthaginian councils, it reflects almost

1136
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:51,920
the exact same attitude in the West for the normative

1137
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,599
church law in terms of the Dudo canon being accepted

1138
00:54:54,599 --> 00:54:56,920
in terms of the election of bishops, even though the

1139
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,639
West had the Patriarch of Rome the pope, like, we

1140
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,639
don't see this attitude of Vatican one infallibility, So you

1141
00:55:03,639 --> 00:55:05,800
know there was when you start looking at absolute canons

1142
00:55:06,199 --> 00:55:09,519
and the canons of the ecumenical councils, I would argue

1143
00:55:09,519 --> 00:55:11,320
that's the easiest quickest way.

1144
00:55:11,079 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 3: To determine what is saule that question?

1145
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 1: What about I know some True Orthodox claim to be

1146
00:55:19,199 --> 00:55:23,480
more aligned to these councils than Eastern Orthodox. Have you

1147
00:55:23,519 --> 00:55:25,679
engaged with the True Orthodox? What is your thoughts on

1148
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:27,760
the True Orthodox, because they kind of have a lot

1149
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,840
of what you're describing, but they say, but we're even

1150
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,039
more hardcore and we take these councils even more seriously.

1151
00:55:32,079 --> 00:55:34,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, the problem is my good buddy David Aarhon, He's

1152
00:55:34,679 --> 00:55:36,760
done a couple of good videos rebutting this. People could

1153
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:38,760
go if they want a longer treatment, you could look

1154
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,119
at David Aharhon's videos on his channel that addressed the

1155
00:55:42,119 --> 00:55:45,800
True Orthodox claims. This is a very very tiny I

1156
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,119
mean it's almost no existent in the real world. I

1157
00:55:48,119 --> 00:55:52,320
mean I've seen one chapel in my travels across the country,

1158
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,000
an actual uh one of these groups.

1159
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 3: So it's almos.

1160
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 2: I mean, even if you did want to go that

1161
00:55:58,079 --> 00:55:59,840
route like it would, you would basically not have a

1162
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:02,360
church unless you were in Florida.

1163
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 3: I think they have one in Florida.

1164
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 2: But aside from that, it would mean essentially that all

1165
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,039
the canonical churches have failed, and there's not. It's basically

1166
00:56:12,119 --> 00:56:14,679
a donatus type position. So I would argue, first of all,

1167
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,039
donatism would mean an end of the episcopacy, and the

1168
00:56:17,119 --> 00:56:19,599
church is basically dead because it's because it's smaller, because

1169
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:24,320
it's because it's almost non existent. The minuscule groups that

1170
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,519
do exist, they're all out of commune with each other.

1171
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,599
There's probably five groups that are all not in communion.

1172
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:36,079
But beyond that, the attitude this is really nuanced and niche.

1173
00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:38,679
But the attitude is very similar to the Roman Catholic

1174
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:42,039
mindset of set of a contests and the way they

1175
00:56:42,119 --> 00:56:46,840
view can in law that if one person, say, commits

1176
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:51,119
a sin or an error, the idea is like it's

1177
00:56:51,119 --> 00:56:53,480
a light switch that everybody in commune with them, it's

1178
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:54,400
all blacked out.

1179
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 3: So there's no grace.

1180
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,079
Speaker 2: And that is a donatus position because what it's denying

1181
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:07,119
is the authority of synods to make the affirmation or

1182
00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:11,440
the declaration of a heresy or aschism, So authority in

1183
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,280
the or our churches, bishops in a synod, and you

1184
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,599
can't erase all of that and say we don't accept

1185
00:57:18,599 --> 00:57:21,280
any synons or any bishops. We're going to create a

1186
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:26,159
parallel episcopat or bishopric. That's classic Dunatism, classic schism.

1187
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: Okay, well, what about what if someone says, well, yeah,

1188
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,760
but you know, Jay Matthew seven says, the wide is

1189
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:33,960
the road that leads a destruction.

1190
00:57:34,119 --> 00:57:35,719
Speaker 3: Narrow go through the narrow gate.

1191
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: And you know, hey, so what, they don't have a

1192
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:42,280
ton of congregations, So what they're not super prevalent. Maybe

1193
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,760
that's the real remnant and maybe that you know, like, well, but.

1194
00:57:44,719 --> 00:57:47,119
Speaker 2: You could never have a situation because of the rest

1195
00:57:47,119 --> 00:57:49,360
of the teachings of the New Testament Book of Acts

1196
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,199
x fifteen and what we believe are proofs of apslock succession,

1197
00:57:53,239 --> 00:57:56,079
you could never have a loss of the snodal reality

1198
00:57:56,119 --> 00:57:59,360
of the Church. So that position would require essentially they're

1199
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:04,079
no longer being synods. They're no longer being authoritative declarations

1200
00:58:04,079 --> 00:58:07,559
from a synod because those positions are premised on all

1201
00:58:07,599 --> 00:58:11,440
the synods in world Orthodoxy being apostate. So there's no

1202
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,320
longer snodal authority. There's just like a random dude in

1203
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,559
a trailer park in Florida who says I'm the bishop.

1204
00:58:18,639 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 3: That's the true remaining bishop. So in other words, can

1205
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:23,880
you appoint more bishops? Like what if there no That's

1206
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:24,320
what I'm.

1207
00:58:24,199 --> 00:58:28,679
Speaker 2: Saying, Like, bishopric in the Canons is appointed by two

1208
00:58:28,719 --> 00:58:29,960
bishops are a metropolitan.

1209
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 3: That's the absolute canons. Kyle bishops come about, right.

1210
00:58:33,159 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: I'm saying, if this true Orthodox Church, which I don't

1211
00:58:36,039 --> 00:58:37,840
know much about them, to be to be transparent, but

1212
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:42,000
if they were to hypothetically have an explosion of two

1213
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,159
bishops coming together, making two more bishops, and all of

1214
00:58:44,199 --> 00:58:47,360
a sudden it grows and there's more congregations and it explodes.

1215
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:49,679
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is that it's already negated because it's

1216
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,239
they've negated the synodal reality of the church. So once

1217
00:58:53,239 --> 00:58:57,599
you've denied the synods, then it's you feel like they're

1218
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,679
you feel like they're dead, just like Protestantism.

1219
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 3: Huh for us?

1220
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: So you would put him in the same category as

1221
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:03,880
a protest well, I mean it would.

1222
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:06,119
Speaker 3: It would depends on like this.

1223
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,159
Speaker 2: I mean, to get really nuanced, like they wouldn't be

1224
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,159
identical to Protestant because they don't hold all the Protestant idea,

1225
00:59:11,239 --> 00:59:12,679
ideologies and doctrines.

1226
00:59:13,199 --> 00:59:16,599
Speaker 3: But it would be equivalent.

1227
00:59:16,119 --> 00:59:20,719
Speaker 2: To the mindset of a Protestant that there's no synods

1228
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:24,679
anymore and there's just this guy over here and this

1229
00:59:24,679 --> 00:59:25,400
guy over here.

1230
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,039
Speaker 3: Does that make sense? In other words, the Orthodox Church

1231
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:32,639
make analogy to the papacy, like a romancality would say,

1232
00:59:33,239 --> 00:59:36,880
the papacy could never go away, right, And if you're

1233
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,000
a set of a contest, you've adopted a position where

1234
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:43,800
you can never have a pope again outside of some

1235
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,719
miraculous event, because all of the cardinals are also vaticant

1236
00:59:47,719 --> 00:59:49,800
to apostates. Does that makes sense? So the whole thing

1237
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:51,880
is died away. Episcope is basically died.

1238
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:53,719
Speaker 2: But even though you have a set of a concious bishop,

1239
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,440
they can't elect the pope.

1240
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 3: So you would put the true Orthodox in a similar

1241
00:59:57,559 --> 01:00:00,480
They're in a similar situation in that, rather rather than

1242
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,199
denying a pope, there's no longer synods. Okay, all of

1243
01:00:04,199 --> 01:00:09,840
the Orthodox synodal synods are invalidated and gone. Got it?

1244
01:00:10,119 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 2: So the church has fundamentally lost its elements and it's

1245
01:00:14,079 --> 01:00:15,039
constituent elements.

1246
01:00:15,119 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean, I guess that makes sense. I think

1247
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:21,480
that I'm sure they'll have a response for this. For

1248
01:00:21,519 --> 01:00:22,119
those of them that.

1249
01:00:22,199 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 2: They would probably say something like, will make a synod,

1250
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,440
will will collect together, but they've never done that.

1251
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: Interesting, Okay. It seems that folks who come to faith

1252
01:00:36,079 --> 01:00:39,360
like the distinguishment you made. You mentioned it earlier between

1253
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:44,480
our views of salvation right where you guys see salvation

1254
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:50,800
as an ongoing process, and there's a in my circles,

1255
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:55,400
there will be a distinguishment between the justification of the

1256
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,360
binary are you justified in the side of God versus

1257
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,360
A the sanctification, the the the continuing on of the

1258
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,400
spirit transforming you so so so being justified before God

1259
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,519
versus being you know, justified before the world, or positional

1260
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:16,800
holiness versus practical holiness. Right, so, so Protestants generally, and

1261
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,079
I want to say, I feel like some Catholics kind

1262
01:01:20,119 --> 01:01:23,199
of make this distinguishment, is that there's a justification that

1263
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:26,000
happens because of what Jesus did, and the debt is paid,

1264
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,239
it is taken care of, and so we're saved by

1265
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:30,719
grace through faith.

1266
01:01:31,199 --> 01:01:33,079
Speaker 3: But then our position will be and we're saved two

1267
01:01:33,119 --> 01:01:33,760
good works.

1268
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: So we should obey Jesus command and get baptized, we

1269
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,039
should go to church every Sunday. We should do these

1270
01:01:39,079 --> 01:01:40,800
things because of their commands.

1271
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:41,599
Speaker 3: But are.

1272
01:01:43,199 --> 01:01:46,239
Speaker 1: We would we would separate justification and sanctification. You guys

1273
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,400
use this as the language that I understand is you're

1274
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,920
you are saved, you're justified you're being saved. We would

1275
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:58,280
say you're being sanctified, and you will be saved in heaven. Yeah,

1276
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,079
you're you're gonna be resurrected, You're gonna be glorified. You

1277
01:02:00,079 --> 01:02:03,280
guys would probably call this theosis stetification. Our language is

1278
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:04,760
going to be a bit different there, but it's similar

1279
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:11,280
to similar concepts. Do you reject that view of justification

1280
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,599
that and is this because of like because of church

1281
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:17,960
history and church councils, or because like when I read

1282
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,599
Romans and I read Galatians, like there seems to be

1283
01:02:20,639 --> 01:02:23,360
this consistent Paul doubling and tripling down and that we're

1284
01:02:23,559 --> 01:02:28,960
justified being a thing that has happened because of the Cross,

1285
01:02:29,119 --> 01:02:31,159
Like we're justified because of what Jesus that you know,

1286
01:02:31,239 --> 01:02:32,400
you know all the verses, I mean I could pull

1287
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:34,480
them up, but you know the verses of like Romans

1288
01:02:34,679 --> 01:02:37,119
A three and all are justified freely by His grace

1289
01:02:37,159 --> 01:02:39,119
through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. So it

1290
01:02:39,119 --> 01:02:42,599
seems to be this binary of justification. And then we

1291
01:02:42,679 --> 01:02:44,800
get to work out our salvation. We work in what

1292
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,559
Jesus has worked. We work out what Jesus worked in.

1293
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,920
You would disagree with that on the basis of scripture,

1294
01:02:52,239 --> 01:02:53,880
or primarily scripture or church history.

1295
01:02:54,679 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 3: Well, scripture, philosophy, and church history all three.

1296
01:02:59,559 --> 01:03:01,719
Speaker 1: So give me the scriptural pitch on why justification by

1297
01:03:01,719 --> 01:03:03,239
grace through faith alone is bad.

1298
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,599
Speaker 2: Well, the phrase is not bad, but what is meant

1299
01:03:07,639 --> 01:03:11,039
by the phrase and what we think the phrase means. So,

1300
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,159
being formerly a Calvinist, you know, solo fida a proponent myself,

1301
01:03:15,199 --> 01:03:17,360
I understand where you guys are coming from and how

1302
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:19,639
you would read the text. The first thing I would

1303
01:03:19,639 --> 01:03:21,760
say is that when you look through you say the

1304
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,840
Gospel of John, and when Jesus talks about the way

1305
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:29,280
that God's declaration works, it seems to be efficacious when

1306
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,280
he speaks. So for example, when he speaks, he creates,

1307
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:36,320
the world is created. There's no declaration that doesn't achieve

1308
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:40,079
a metaphysical or ontological effect. So for us, the idea

1309
01:03:40,159 --> 01:03:44,239
that you could divorce the legal status from the ontological

1310
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:47,480
or metaphysical status is not possible. And especially when you

1311
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:50,679
go back to Luther. Luther's really the first to propose

1312
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:54,199
this because he's influenced by two people, Gabriel Bile and

1313
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,880
William of Baukham, and they're the most famous medieval nominalist.

1314
01:03:57,119 --> 01:04:00,559
I'm not saying that Luther was identical to nominalism, but

1315
01:04:00,719 --> 01:04:04,480
that he explicitly read them and said that their philosophy

1316
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:07,639
helped him figure out how you could be in an

1317
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:12,280
imputational legal status without ontologically having that status. So there's

1318
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:16,440
a divorce between the term, the word nominalism, namism, and

1319
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:21,440
the ontological status or the reality of that that you possess. Okay, okay,

1320
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,719
So conclusion, then I'm gonna go back to the scripture.

1321
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,079
But the point being I'm blending the scripture and the

1322
01:04:26,119 --> 01:04:29,760
philosophical point is that in the ancient and medieval world

1323
01:04:30,159 --> 01:04:33,280
there were no nominalists, and so nobody had yet divorced

1324
01:04:33,719 --> 01:04:36,679
the name or the term from the ontological reality. So

1325
01:04:36,719 --> 01:04:40,960
if God declares something so, it must actually in reality

1326
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:43,519
and ray be so. So if God declares us righteous

1327
01:04:43,559 --> 01:04:46,360
and just and transformed and illumined and in Christ, et cetera,

1328
01:04:46,559 --> 01:04:49,559
we actually have to be that, and so there's no

1329
01:04:49,719 --> 01:04:53,400
such thing as a purely legal imputational righteousness.

1330
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 3: So that's the philosophical point.

1331
01:04:55,239 --> 01:04:58,199
Speaker 2: But back to scripture, I would argue that again, when

1332
01:04:58,199 --> 01:05:01,920
God speaks, it's efficacious and all those passages like in

1333
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:04,119
Romans when he talks about being baptism in Christ or

1334
01:05:04,119 --> 01:05:05,960
Titus three when he talks about the washing of labor

1335
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,519
of regeneration. We see those as actually referring to the

1336
01:05:09,599 --> 01:05:13,079
actual sacramental right, and there's no reason to divorce them.

1337
01:05:13,079 --> 01:05:17,039
So the Protestant presupposition is that to maintain the legal

1338
01:05:17,079 --> 01:05:21,480
invitational solofide position, we must divorce the celebration of the

1339
01:05:21,559 --> 01:05:25,199
right from the regeneration or the spiritual effects. And we

1340
01:05:25,239 --> 01:05:27,239
don't believe that. We think that they're united. Even luther

1341
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,239
believe that. In Suda Augustine, yeah, because they talk aboutchasal regeneration.

1342
01:05:31,079 --> 01:05:34,119
Speaker 1: Right, right, right, So when I'm looking at like, I

1343
01:05:34,199 --> 01:05:36,159
think this glues what you just said together.

1344
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 3: Right.

1345
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,719
Speaker 1: This is Philippians chapter two. I'm sure you know it.

1346
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,199
Can you can you read that? I don't want to?

1347
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:41,639
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1348
01:05:41,679 --> 01:05:43,559
Speaker 1: Okay, So yeah, work hard to show the results of

1349
01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:46,440
your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear, right,

1350
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,239
which we would all say yes and amen to that,

1351
01:05:48,679 --> 01:05:50,480
for God is working in you and giving you the

1352
01:05:50,519 --> 01:05:53,559
desire and the power to do what pleases him. Right,

1353
01:05:53,559 --> 01:05:56,239
So there's this death seems to be a bridging. I

1354
01:05:56,239 --> 01:05:57,639
don't know if the bridging is the right where, but

1355
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:00,800
it seems like what you're saying, there is an ontological

1356
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:03,000
shift that happens. Our heart of stone is replaced with

1357
01:06:03,039 --> 01:06:06,000
a heart of flesh. God give what writes his law

1358
01:06:06,039 --> 01:06:10,000
on our hearts. And so then when we're reading Romans right.

1359
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 2: By the way, and that past is that you just read, Yeah, yeah,

1360
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:14,320
the Greek word is inner gaya.

1361
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 3: It's energies, which which it's the power. So that Paul

1362
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:21,400
uses inner gaya and dunamus and for this word power,

1363
01:06:22,199 --> 01:06:24,679
that's uh if I re call us dunamus, but in

1364
01:06:25,159 --> 01:06:29,400
uh it's yea, he uses innergia and he uses dunamis,

1365
01:06:29,599 --> 01:06:32,239
and that's has to be. By the way, I'm just

1366
01:06:32,239 --> 01:06:34,079
pointing out that it teaches the essence entergy distinction. By

1367
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:36,199
go ahead, okay, no, no, no, no, By the way, I

1368
01:06:36,239 --> 01:06:38,679
don't just look up in blue letter the Paul's usage

1369
01:06:38,679 --> 01:06:39,280
of innergeia.

1370
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is innergaya in the logos Bible software.

1371
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:44,400
So I don't have an issue with the distinction of energies.

1372
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:45,239
I don't, I don't need.

1373
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:49,079
Speaker 2: But what I'm saying is that that also by extension,

1374
01:06:49,159 --> 01:06:50,800
I'm not trying to deflect because you can go back

1375
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:52,440
to the passages. But where I was going to go

1376
01:06:52,519 --> 01:06:56,760
next was that the essence entergy distinction isn't just an abstraction.

1377
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,800
It's unique. Only Orthodox Church teaches the essence interesstinction, and

1378
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:04,719
that has to be an ontological reality that we're participating in.

1379
01:07:05,239 --> 01:07:08,960
Protestantism teaches through the Covenant, if you mean classical Calvinist type.

1380
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:12,880
So the Covenant of Works actually ends up making Jesus

1381
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:17,920
into an historian Jesus who merits a status of grace,

1382
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,079
and it's not an ontological position that he has as

1383
01:07:21,119 --> 01:07:23,480
the son of God. That's because if you're Colvinist, you

1384
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,840
believe I'm not a Calvinist. Okay, Well, the Covenant works

1385
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,360
in the Calvinist position of justification means that Jesus fulfills

1386
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:34,440
the Covenant of Works to grant us the perfect legal

1387
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:39,119
status that he kept the law right. So I mean, yeah,

1388
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:41,480
I know, if there's not a Covenant works, Luther thinks

1389
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,159
that Jesus perfectly keeps the law to give us that rightchousness.

1390
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:45,920
Speaker 3: Got you, Yeah, it imputed righteousness, I understand.

1391
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 2: Okay, But Covenant of works, even if you don't. If

1392
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,880
you're a Lutheran, you don't affirm covenant works. It's the

1393
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:56,119
still the same principle that Jesus keeps the law right right,

1394
01:07:56,239 --> 01:07:59,599
and so the righteousness that we get is a legal status. Yes,

1395
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:05,280
this is not a legal status. Primarily it's an ontological reality.

1396
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,480
Thus the legal status reflects the ontological reality, not the

1397
01:08:08,519 --> 01:08:09,119
other way around.

1398
01:08:09,239 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 3: The legal status reflects the ontological reality. View. So it's

1399
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:15,480
and both.

1400
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:18,159
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is that it has to be the

1401
01:08:18,199 --> 01:08:21,520
two together. You could never have a situation where I'm

1402
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,800
filthy rags, but God sees and declares me righteous. That

1403
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:27,000
would make God a liar. That's our point.

1404
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's because of the blood, the blood of Jesus

1405
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:31,640
in a sacrifice in the atonement that happens.

1406
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:34,520
Speaker 3: Then I have to ontologically be righteous.

1407
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,520
Speaker 1: Well, I think you you have a heart shift and

1408
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:38,720
a desire that's an inside out change. So one has

1409
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:43,479
a ontological change of heart because of being justified before

1410
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:44,399
the scriptures.

1411
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:45,079
Speaker 3: Right, but the.

1412
01:08:45,079 --> 01:08:47,600
Speaker 2: Change in you has nothing to do with your justification.

1413
01:08:48,079 --> 01:08:52,359
That's an effect of justification in classical Protestantism. The change

1414
01:08:52,359 --> 01:08:53,359
in you, say that one more.

1415
01:08:53,199 --> 01:08:56,800
Speaker 3: Time, the new heart, the change that occurs in you, yes,

1416
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,640
in classical Protestants, whether Calvin or Luther, is not anything

1417
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:03,079
to do with your justification. It's an effect of the

1418
01:09:03,159 --> 01:09:06,680
justification that Christ wrow. Okay, and I'm saying, no, that's

1419
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:07,399
not possible.

1420
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 2: You cannot divorce the legal status of being righteous or

1421
01:09:12,159 --> 01:09:15,760
just from the ontological reality. But the Protestant position requires

1422
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:19,800
that to have imputator imputational righteousness, and the ancient medieval

1423
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:23,960
world were not nominalists, so nobody believed in a purely

1424
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:26,760
imputational legal status. It doesn't exist in the ancient world.

1425
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:31,319
By you know, Alsterir McGrath is the famous Protestant. So

1426
01:09:31,359 --> 01:09:34,159
he wrote a book called Eustacia Day, and it's about

1427
01:09:34,159 --> 01:09:39,000
this point that through his research as an Anglican, he

1428
01:09:39,039 --> 01:09:41,800
came to the position that he could not find in

1429
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:46,000
the ancient medieval world a position that justifies a purely

1430
01:09:46,279 --> 01:09:50,319
legal status, which is what is required for the Luther Calvin,

1431
01:09:50,359 --> 01:09:53,319
classical Protestant position, because they didn't believe in the ancient world.

1432
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:57,319
You didn't have Bile and Okham yet, who proposed the

1433
01:09:57,359 --> 01:10:00,560
divorce between the ontological reality and the naming of a

1434
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,159
thing that has to happen first before Lutheran Kellen.

1435
01:10:03,239 --> 01:10:05,159
Speaker 1: And so what you're saying is in the ontological reality

1436
01:10:05,199 --> 01:10:08,000
there has to be works to prove the justification.

1437
01:10:08,079 --> 01:10:09,039
Speaker 3: Is that what you're kind of getting at.

1438
01:10:09,159 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 2: For us, there's no difference between justification, scientification glorification. That's

1439
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,680
why Paul and Stay three says that in this life

1440
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:21,920
you can experience glorification. So it's not it's not a stage.

1441
01:10:22,039 --> 01:10:24,800
Is like the Protestant Orto Salutas sets up, well, I.

1442
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,159
Speaker 1: Don't know if it's in stages, and it is in

1443
01:10:27,199 --> 01:10:29,399
the in the well. Again, I'm not I'm not trying

1444
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:31,960
to be a Protestant position.

1445
01:10:32,039 --> 01:10:34,319
Speaker 3: I like the Classical Reformation. Sure, sure, I'm looking.

1446
01:10:34,359 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to look at the scriptures, and I'm saying, man,

1447
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:39,119
it sure does seem like there's a consistent declaration of

1448
01:10:39,239 --> 01:10:43,359
justification over the believer. And that let me in that

1449
01:10:43,399 --> 01:10:47,000
they don't they don't have to walk on eggshells. They

1450
01:10:47,039 --> 01:10:48,800
don't have to have the dread on if I'm going

1451
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:50,760
to heaven or not, if I'm producing enough works or not,

1452
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:54,479
that they are justified, and that anyone that's justified, anyone

1453
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:57,479
that is now a child of God, should and will

1454
01:10:57,520 --> 01:11:00,479
act accordingly if my son is my son, he's my

1455
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:03,520
son and acts accordingly. Even if he messes up, he

1456
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,399
still remains my son, right, And so that's what I'm

1457
01:11:06,399 --> 01:11:09,039
getting at now. He's also obedient, and he also produces

1458
01:11:09,079 --> 01:11:11,439
good works, but the good works that he produces aren't

1459
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:13,159
what make him ontologically my son.

1460
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:18,279
Speaker 2: What makes him the son, or what makes a person

1461
01:11:18,359 --> 01:11:21,760
the son is baptism. We believe baptism is where we

1462
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,239
were regenerated. It doesn't mean that if you die in

1463
01:11:24,239 --> 01:11:26,039
the way of your baptism that you're not saying Because

1464
01:11:26,039 --> 01:11:29,039
we've always seen catechumans that die or whatever, they're considered

1465
01:11:29,079 --> 01:11:30,359
part of the church. Some of them are martyrs and

1466
01:11:30,399 --> 01:11:34,119
saints in the Orthodox Church. So sonship is in the

1467
01:11:34,159 --> 01:11:37,760
scriptures connected to being baptized into Christ. So every time,

1468
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,479
like in the Book of Romans, when you're baptized into Christ,

1469
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:44,760
right that for us, there's no reason to divorce that

1470
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:47,720
from the actual sacrament and ritual baptism. And that's what

1471
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:52,279
the church fathers all teach. Likewise, the warnings about apostasy

1472
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,199
are real warnings. So you can cease to be a son,

1473
01:11:55,279 --> 01:11:58,359
you can taste of the heavenly gift you can be enlightened.

1474
01:11:58,399 --> 01:12:01,640
We think that's an ancient term for Baptist right being washed.

1475
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:04,159
Hebrew six right, the parable the soer new life can

1476
01:12:04,199 --> 01:12:06,439
spring up and it gets withered out and died. So

1477
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:10,119
we think those those warnings are real warnings too, being

1478
01:12:10,239 --> 01:12:13,399
in the covenant and removing yourself from the Covenant, because

1479
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:16,600
in every one of God's covenants, whether it's a Damic

1480
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:20,840
or whether it's a Bramic, there's sanctions and penalty is

1481
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,159
sure for leaving and defiling the covenant.

1482
01:12:24,199 --> 01:12:26,239
Speaker 1: Sure, but wouldn't that be going back to like content

1483
01:12:26,319 --> 01:12:29,159
and a desire to leave said covenant, not a hey,

1484
01:12:29,199 --> 01:12:32,560
I messed up, I fell short, I sinned in a

1485
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,119
way I don't. I don't think you guys have the

1486
01:12:34,159 --> 01:12:37,199
same like grave sin, mortal sin, not mortal sin, but

1487
01:12:37,279 --> 01:12:39,680
like you can apostatize. Because Hebrew six is saying, if

1488
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:43,199
you leave Christianity go back to Judaism, you are also.

1489
01:12:43,399 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 3: I don't really care to the apostasy thing. I don't.

1490
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:47,359
That's a that's a whole separate conversation.

1491
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 2: No, it's not, though, because it shows that justification cannot

1492
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:52,720
be purely legal or imputational. There has to be an

1493
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:56,119
ontological reality connected to justification itself works.

1494
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:57,600
Speaker 1: And you're in and that that looks like works and

1495
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:00,600
well sacraments that I would categorize as works affair.

1496
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:02,800
Speaker 2: Well Jesus as for example, that faith is a work.

1497
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:04,359
This is the work of God that you believe in

1498
01:13:04,399 --> 01:13:06,479
him and me has sent. So faith is a work

1499
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,760
in our view, okay, And so likewise, I think Calvinists

1500
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:11,840
also believe faith is a work. That's interesting because they

1501
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:15,640
believe regeneration precedes faith. You first have to be born

1502
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:16,520
again to have faith.

1503
01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 3: And they see faith, but they would say it's an

1504
01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:19,640
effect of regeneration. Huh.

1505
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 2: And that even the faith that you have isn't the

1506
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:26,600
basis for the justification, it's an effective justification Calvinist game.

1507
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 1: Do you think this view where someone is only justified

1508
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:36,079
if they're ontologically justified, meaning that it's all one long process,

1509
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:39,159
do you think that it creates a I'm not sure.

1510
01:13:39,159 --> 01:13:41,159
I'm trying to say this in a way that is

1511
01:13:41,199 --> 01:13:48,439
not disparaging, A paranoia about one's eternal state, a walking

1512
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:53,239
on eggshells, a dread of fear and uncertainty that according

1513
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:54,680
I mean, you could correct me if we're wrong, but

1514
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:57,880
according to your own soteriology. You can be Eastern Orthodox

1515
01:13:57,920 --> 01:13:59,279
and not go to heaven. Sure you could do all

1516
01:13:59,279 --> 01:14:01,520
the sacraments, and any people invited to the marriage face who

1517
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:03,680
are throwing out right and so so what I'm getting

1518
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:05,920
at Jay is that, like it seems like I have

1519
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:08,319
more confidence in your salvation that you're going to go

1520
01:14:08,399 --> 01:14:11,720
to heaven. Then the position is than you do, Like

1521
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:15,439
I believe you're justified because you believe in Jesus and

1522
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:17,319
because of the penalty panel across, Like you're in a

1523
01:14:17,399 --> 01:14:19,760
right standing outside of all of our disagreements theologically, and

1524
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:22,479
you're not thinking I'm truly saying or whatever, I have

1525
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:25,279
more confidence in your salvation in the Eastern Orthodox folks

1526
01:14:25,319 --> 01:14:28,439
who follow me than they do. Is it doesn't that

1527
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:30,479
create a despair? And maybe you will say, well, Rustlin,

1528
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:33,359
you're just arguing pragmatically. Who cares the truth is the truth?

1529
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:35,479
But can you see how that people can come to

1530
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:36,239
that conclusion? Sure?

1531
01:14:36,399 --> 01:14:38,680
Speaker 2: I mean I had the same sort of thought process

1532
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,800
when I was first moving from Calvinism to Catholicism.

1533
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:42,640
Speaker 3: I was concerned.

1534
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 2: I'm just not trying to be disparaed, you're condescending, But

1535
01:14:45,399 --> 01:14:48,119
I understand the thought process and where you're coming from.

1536
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:50,600
Speaker 3: And do you do you like is that a healthy

1537
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:51,680
way to live spiritually?

1538
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:54,239
Speaker 1: If I'm always walking on eggshows and I'm always uncertain

1539
01:14:54,279 --> 01:14:55,680
about if I'm going to go to heaven or not,

1540
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:58,520
because I got to keep doing stuff, I gotta keep producing.

1541
01:14:58,159 --> 01:15:01,600
Speaker 2: Work, well, one thing I would is, I don't think

1542
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:05,199
any of us actually escapes that question, because most I

1543
01:15:05,199 --> 01:15:07,479
don't know about you, but most Protestants that I've met,

1544
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:11,199
and even Calvinists, and one most of those people still

1545
01:15:11,239 --> 01:15:15,000
admit the possibility of self deception and psychological tricker your delution.

1546
01:15:15,239 --> 01:15:18,760
You could fool yourself into thinking that you're regenerate or

1547
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:20,479
that you have assurance of salvation, and it could be

1548
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,880
a deception. So from an existential vantage point, I don't

1549
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:29,039
think anybody escapes that possible concern or doubt or fear.

1550
01:15:30,359 --> 01:15:33,760
You could theoretically say, well, but I believe in the

1551
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,840
doctrine of assurance of salvation all this kind of stuff,

1552
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:39,000
and so I bypass that it's not a problem for me,

1553
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:41,520
And I would just simply say, again, there's so many

1554
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:43,720
warnings in the New Testament that I think we have

1555
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:48,439
to take both of or for us, like we would

1556
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:52,199
say that the purpose of the sacraments is to help

1557
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,800
have that as surety and to have the knowledge that

1558
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:58,520
we have grace. I don't know that I have, as

1559
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:02,079
Augustine said, the gift of perseverance to the end. Jesus says,

1560
01:16:02,079 --> 01:16:04,079
he that perseveres to the end will be said. So

1561
01:16:04,119 --> 01:16:06,039
I have to persevere until the end. I don't know

1562
01:16:06,079 --> 01:16:08,600
whether I will, but I do trust that God will

1563
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:11,479
give me the grace and the means to persevere. So,

1564
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:13,640
if you want to think of it in Augustinian way,

1565
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:16,239
I would say I could agree with his position that

1566
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:19,880
God gives us the means too persevere to the end.

1567
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:21,920
It is all gifts of grace. But I do have

1568
01:16:22,279 --> 01:16:25,520
a necessity to synergize and be faithful to the covenant.

1569
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:28,039
Too persevere to the end, I get to get access

1570
01:16:28,079 --> 01:16:30,399
to the means of grace like the sacraments. Sure Jesus says,

1571
01:16:30,399 --> 01:16:32,439
you have to eat my flesh and blood, yes, to

1572
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:34,600
be saved, and that means those who love me obey

1573
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:36,600
my own always say in a general sense, we're going.

1574
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:37,199
Speaker 3: To keep doing that.

1575
01:16:37,279 --> 01:16:39,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess what I'm what I'm getting at. And

1576
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:42,239
the some of the folks that I see that are

1577
01:16:42,239 --> 01:16:47,119
coming towards Eastern Orthodoxy, seem to have a crippling fear

1578
01:16:47,159 --> 01:16:50,640
and anxiety around their own salvation. And I think you're

1579
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:53,439
probably a more seasoned person in the faith where you

1580
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:56,640
maybe are I don't know, more educated, more nuanced to it.

1581
01:16:56,840 --> 01:17:00,560
Where I'm saying, on a very practical level, I believe

1582
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:02,960
if someone's placed their faith in Jesus, that they're going

1583
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,319
to heaven and that they're going to produce good works

1584
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:09,199
because they get to and because God is that good, right,

1585
01:17:09,319 --> 01:17:13,159
like I am with you, continue on, maybe I'm self deceived,

1586
01:17:13,359 --> 01:17:16,479
continue on in the sacraments, continue on working out my salvation,

1587
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:19,520
continue on producing. But it's not those works that are

1588
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:22,520
saving me. It's that I get to do works that

1589
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:25,359
I'm saved. And so it's not it's not a I'm

1590
01:17:25,399 --> 01:17:28,840
not advocating for someone saying that, you know, maybe someone

1591
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:30,720
can and can anathemize. I'm saying I don't want to

1592
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:32,640
find out. I don't want to know. God is so

1593
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:34,359
good to me that I'm gonna keep going to church.

1594
01:17:34,359 --> 01:17:36,640
I'm gonna keep reading my Bible, I'm gonna keep in fellowship,

1595
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:38,479
I'm gonna keep taking comunity. I'm gonna keep doing those

1596
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:41,119
things because He's that good that the least thing I

1597
01:17:41,119 --> 01:17:43,079
could do is to offer up my bodies as a

1598
01:17:43,079 --> 01:17:45,760
living sacrifice back onto the.

1599
01:17:46,039 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 3: Right to Jesus.

1600
01:17:48,159 --> 01:17:50,079
Speaker 2: I would say, if you look at Romans four in

1601
01:17:50,119 --> 01:17:53,600
this I'm bringing this up because I noticed that James

1602
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:57,600
White recently responded to what I'd said about this passage.

1603
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,520
If you look at Romans four, when Paul talks about

1604
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:04,920
the justification that Abraham underwent, he cites a very specific chapter.

1605
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:08,680
It's Genesis fifteen. And the problem is that in the

1606
01:18:09,279 --> 01:18:12,119
classical Protestant view, or in the idea of the transition

1607
01:18:12,199 --> 01:18:14,920
from wrath to grace, this is a pretty common Lutheran

1608
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:20,560
Calvinist idea that at one point we are under God's wrath,

1609
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:23,920
children of wrath. Then we believe, and there's that transition

1610
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:26,000
from wrath to grace, right where now we're a friend

1611
01:18:26,039 --> 01:18:27,920
of God. We're no longer under his wrath. He's our father,

1612
01:18:28,039 --> 01:18:32,279
not our judge. Right, Paul, in Romans four, this key

1613
01:18:32,359 --> 01:18:37,680
passage about solafide supposedly does not cite the first chapter

1614
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:40,560
that's supposed to be and should be if the Calvinist

1615
01:18:41,039 --> 01:18:44,640
classical Protestant reading is correct, of solofide it should be

1616
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:49,880
Genesis twelve, but he cites Genesis fifteen as where Abraham

1617
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:52,920
has declared righteous. But Abraham, his son, he's already been

1618
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:55,840
doing three chapters of good faithful works. Now, when James

1619
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:59,159
White responded to this, he said, Okay, he bit the

1620
01:18:59,159 --> 01:19:02,239
bullet and was like, Abraham wasn't justified until Genesis fifteen,

1621
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,600
but he's already doing good works that God clearly accepts.

1622
01:19:06,399 --> 01:19:09,159
To me, that's point. That is a clear proof that

1623
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:12,680
you would have to say Paul made a mistake for

1624
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:16,199
where he's citing in Genesis for Abraham's transition from rath

1625
01:19:16,199 --> 01:19:19,720
to grace. And if I'm correct, then it's not a

1626
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:22,239
proof text for Solovietia. It's a proof text that the

1627
01:19:22,359 --> 01:19:26,640
righteousness of God is the actual uncreated energy in you.

1628
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 3: It's not a legal state.

1629
01:19:28,319 --> 01:19:31,199
Speaker 2: The uncreated energy that you possess if you're a son

1630
01:19:31,239 --> 01:19:33,720
of God and participating in the divine energies, the Dono

1631
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:38,199
mess and the Innergeia. That's what leads to the legal state,

1632
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:41,640
not the legal state. And then that makes you interesting.

1633
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:45,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I just I see identity in terms

1634
01:19:45,239 --> 01:19:47,960
of who I am in Christ as neither an inside

1635
01:19:48,199 --> 01:19:50,439
or outside in. It's a top down thing, right, So

1636
01:19:50,479 --> 01:19:53,199
like society would tell us that your identity is what

1637
01:19:53,239 --> 01:19:55,520
you're good for from the utilitarian standpoint, right. So, if

1638
01:19:55,560 --> 01:19:57,600
you're in high school, you're an athlete, that's your identity

1639
01:19:57,600 --> 01:20:01,239
you're good for. The outside in contribution you have, right.

1640
01:20:01,439 --> 01:20:05,560
And then now with the crazy transformer stuff, identity is

1641
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:08,000
subjective to whatever you think it is. It's inside out,

1642
01:20:08,039 --> 01:20:11,239
it's whatever I feel I am, right, Whereas if I'm

1643
01:20:11,239 --> 01:20:14,960
looking at the layout in your reference, you're corrected at

1644
01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:16,319
your raptized into Christ right.

1645
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:16,600
Speaker 3: Right.

1646
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:21,039
Speaker 1: So when we're looking at Romans four, right after this

1647
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:24,840
he cites to your point Genesis fifteen, and then right

1648
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:27,960
after that, verse five says, however, the one who, however,

1649
01:20:28,039 --> 01:20:30,359
the one who does not work but trust God, who

1650
01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:33,079
justifies on godly their faith, is credited as right to say.

1651
01:20:33,119 --> 01:20:36,760
Speaker 2: This is in the context of Jews in Roman in

1652
01:20:37,039 --> 01:20:41,800
the Church in Rome think that they can be justified

1653
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:45,000
by also keeping the Mosaic law, and Paul is using

1654
01:20:45,039 --> 01:20:48,920
Abraham as the paradigm example of the first quote Jew.

1655
01:20:49,039 --> 01:20:51,600
Jews think that Abraham was the first Jew, and Abraham

1656
01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:55,520
doesn't have at this point even to Justice fifteen the

1657
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:58,239
totality of the law or the Mosaic law. Right, So

1658
01:20:58,279 --> 01:21:03,600
Abraham is justified, he's not the it's justice fifteen. It's

1659
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:06,319
after he was called out of the or of Caldas

1660
01:21:06,359 --> 01:21:11,319
in Genesis twelve. It's after three chapters of good works, right,

1661
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:14,159
and so it's at this point that Paul says he

1662
01:21:14,279 --> 01:21:16,760
is called the friend of God or right, he's made righteous.

1663
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:21,359
So there's three separate twelve fifteen, well four, twelve, fifteen, seventeen,

1664
01:21:21,359 --> 01:21:24,960
twenty two. And in all of those interactions between God

1665
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:29,680
and Abraham, there's not any one place where he's quote saved.

1666
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:33,720
He's saved in all of these actions, and he's working

1667
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:38,279
in faith, not according to mosaic law or mosaic standards.

1668
01:21:38,279 --> 01:21:40,840
So Paul's whole point is that righteousness is not contingent

1669
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:45,000
upon mosaic law. It's contingent upon actually having the uncreated

1670
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:45,720
grace of God in.

1671
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,720
Speaker 3: You, which we would all agree with. Well, I don't.

1672
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:50,920
I've never heard of a protestably he's an uncreated grace.

1673
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:53,039
But maybe you do. I don't know. Maybe you're well.

1674
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:55,600
Speaker 1: I'm not being bad, I'm saying like, maybe you're one

1675
01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:57,960
of the first well on created grace. You're talking about

1676
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:00,119
the dogma's energies, the energy's distinction. Is that would what

1677
01:22:00,159 --> 01:22:00,680
you're meaning.

1678
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:02,880
Speaker 3: By which is an Orthodox reason? Yeah, I'm not.

1679
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:06,359
Speaker 1: No, No, I'm not saying it's a historic Protestant season. You

1680
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:10,560
keep you're kind of in your arguments here, you're referencing

1681
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:12,479
a lot of Calvinistic teaching, which I don't really hold

1682
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:15,279
to Calvinism or any any I'm not a Calvinist, right,

1683
01:22:15,319 --> 01:22:17,359
so I understand what you're saying. I'm so if you

1684
01:22:17,399 --> 01:22:19,479
say something that sounds true, J, I'm gonna say, oh,

1685
01:22:19,479 --> 01:22:22,279
that sounds true J. Whether it's Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant.

1686
01:22:22,359 --> 01:22:29,000
Speaker 3: Okay, that's that's me cheating, that's fair. I'm typically in

1687
01:22:29,119 --> 01:22:31,479
my mind because I don't know all of your positions.

1688
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,920
I'm just arguing against what's called classical Protestantism. That would

1689
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:38,760
be like the confessional Lutherans, the Confessional you know Westminster Confession,

1690
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:43,640
fair enough, you know sne of Dort, the classic Protestant confessions.

1691
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:44,159
Uh huh.

1692
01:22:44,199 --> 01:22:47,800
Speaker 1: And so from your paradigm, when Paul is writing in

1693
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:50,720
Romans and he's doubling down on this justified justified by grace,

1694
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:53,399
justified by faith justified by grace, when it's happening in Galatians,

1695
01:22:53,399 --> 01:22:56,000
when it's happening in other parts of scripture. From your paradigm,

1696
01:22:56,039 --> 01:22:59,680
you would say that's exclusive to the Judaizers and him

1697
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:02,159
trying to correct their back doing of the law.

1698
01:23:02,279 --> 01:23:05,600
Speaker 2: I would say not necessarily exclusive, because a lot of

1699
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:07,760
the passages are dealing with that, but not all of them. Okay,

1700
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:09,640
So are there are places where, you know, like in

1701
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:11,960
Romans two, I think he's talking about gentiles, He's not

1702
01:23:12,039 --> 01:23:12,800
just talking about Jews.

1703
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:18,000
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, So then in your framework, you would reject

1704
01:23:18,039 --> 01:23:20,399
the idea of a top down identity where one is

1705
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:23,680
declared righteous, made righteous because of Jesus on the cross,

1706
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:25,279
because of the work the fulfillment of the law of

1707
01:23:25,319 --> 01:23:28,960
Jesus on across and then from that they then are

1708
01:23:29,119 --> 01:23:32,199
behaving and living differently. You would say that that's a

1709
01:23:33,279 --> 01:23:35,159
heresy or would you just say we're incorrect, Like, where

1710
01:23:35,159 --> 01:23:36,439
would you categorically put that?

1711
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:39,720
Speaker 2: No, I do think that sola fide is a heresy.

1712
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:41,199
Just in case of my faith, the one is a heresy,

1713
01:23:41,359 --> 01:23:42,039
I would say.

1714
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:45,640
Speaker 3: So, So, so all of these scriptures are.

1715
01:23:47,199 --> 01:23:51,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I'm just having some understanding the presupposition

1716
01:23:52,039 --> 01:23:56,279
is that this is all legal status first and foremost,

1717
01:23:57,000 --> 01:24:00,560
and then anything after that is something else that's sanctification

1718
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:01,119
or something.

1719
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:02,279
Speaker 3: Like that, cooperating with the Holy Spirit.

1720
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:04,760
Speaker 2: Correct, And what I'm saying is that there is no

1721
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:07,680
such thing in ancient medieval world, as Alser McGrath admits

1722
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:12,880
in Ustcia day, as a purely nominal legal standing that

1723
01:24:13,119 --> 01:24:17,520
is not directly connected to or necessitated by the act

1724
01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:21,680
actual ontological reality. So in classical Protestanism it is called

1725
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:23,720
the ordo salutis the order of salvation. That's what you

1726
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:26,520
were talking about. We tak about justification, sangication, glorifica. That's

1727
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:29,600
the order of salvation, we would say. And I'm arguing

1728
01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:37,239
that that's premised on a late medieval philosophical development. That

1729
01:24:37,680 --> 01:24:41,000
this alone shows that Paul could not have taught the

1730
01:24:41,079 --> 01:24:43,920
legal status because nobody in the ancient medieval world was nominalist.

1731
01:24:44,319 --> 01:24:47,560
Speaker 3: And if that's true, then these assumptions as to what

1732
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:48,920
Paul means are wrong.

1733
01:24:49,079 --> 01:24:51,600
Speaker 1: Is it possible that there was some drift in the

1734
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:54,439
ancient medieval world and what Paul taught was closer to

1735
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:57,279
the Protestant position, and there was drifted in the reformers

1736
01:24:57,279 --> 01:24:59,159
came back who were always reforming and trying to get

1737
01:24:59,199 --> 01:25:00,960
back to a Paul Ta. Could you see that from

1738
01:25:01,039 --> 01:25:02,079
our paradigm at least?

1739
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:06,520
Speaker 3: Uh? Well, no, for various reasons. I wouldn't be able

1740
01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:06,960
to admit that.

1741
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:09,039
Speaker 1: Because I say admit that, I said see it from

1742
01:25:09,039 --> 01:25:10,319
our paradigm. Understand you wouldn't be.

1743
01:25:10,279 --> 01:25:12,119
Speaker 3: But I think you could. I understand why you might

1744
01:25:12,159 --> 01:25:12,359
think that.

1745
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:15,199
Speaker 2: Okay, But it would mean that the church didn't understand

1746
01:25:15,199 --> 01:25:17,359
the Gospel for fifteen hundred years, which is what Utia

1747
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:17,760
Day meant.

1748
01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:20,039
Speaker 1: I don't know if they didn't understand the gospel. I

1749
01:25:20,039 --> 01:25:23,319
think perhaps there were some some doctrinal developments bit drift,

1750
01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:25,680
some things that they shift. I'm not one of those

1751
01:25:25,960 --> 01:25:27,960
great there was a great apostacy kind of guys.

1752
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:28,920
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that.

1753
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 2: But it would mean that nobody That's the point of

1754
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:34,640
Ustechia Day by McGrath is that no one taught Luther

1755
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:38,479
or the Protestant solo fide until Luther and Calvin.

1756
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:38,800
Speaker 1: Huh.

1757
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:41,399
Speaker 3: But I mean Luther and Calvin are also pulling from Augustine,

1758
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:44,039
or so they say. But Augustin believes in bachelor regeneration

1759
01:25:44,159 --> 01:25:47,000
and the necessity works. If you read on the Gift

1760
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:50,279
of perseverance and on operative and cooperative grace, he doesn't believe.

1761
01:25:51,079 --> 01:25:53,279
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm getting at is like the we

1762
01:25:53,359 --> 01:25:55,520
believe in works, we just don't believe works or would

1763
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:57,680
save us. Like I believe we should produce good works.

1764
01:25:57,680 --> 01:25:59,760
This is why I understand that the free Grace community

1765
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:01,600
gets mad at me, because I'm sure you're familiar with

1766
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:03,159
the free Grace section, right, So, like, yeah, like I

1767
01:26:03,199 --> 01:26:06,199
would say, no, that that's bad, Like that's scary stuff

1768
01:26:06,199 --> 01:26:08,479
where you could say, like someone can profess Jesus at

1769
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:10,600
one point in time and then live like the devil

1770
01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:12,560
and even become an enemy of the Gospel and they're

1771
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:16,039
still saved. I would say, I absolutely reject that. So

1772
01:26:16,079 --> 01:26:18,399
I believe in works, I just don't believe works are

1773
01:26:18,439 --> 01:26:22,000
the things that positionally make us holy. I think great

1774
01:26:22,119 --> 01:26:24,039
works are the things that practically.

1775
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:24,960
Speaker 3: Make us holy. I understand.

1776
01:26:25,079 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, So fair enough, Okay, before we wrap, you gotta

1777
01:26:28,479 --> 01:26:31,960
told me tell me about this, uh, toll houses and

1778
01:26:32,079 --> 01:26:32,720
and how does that work?

1779
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:34,039
Speaker 3: You're going to talk about comedy that we're going to

1780
01:26:34,079 --> 01:26:36,640
talk about. We can talk about comedy. Tell me about

1781
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:37,920
toll houses. And we'll talk about comedy.

1782
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is a more of a a liturgical, monastic,

1783
01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:47,920
and uh spiritual tradition within the Orthodox world.

1784
01:26:48,159 --> 01:26:51,520
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say it's quote dogma because it's not infallible.

1785
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:52,199
It's not dogma.

1786
01:26:52,319 --> 01:26:56,439
Speaker 1: It's more of a lore, a lore.

1787
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:59,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not I'm genuinely like, how we where

1788
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:00,000
do we category?

1789
01:27:00,079 --> 01:27:03,680
Speaker 2: I mean, there's all there are many things within Orthodox

1790
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:07,680
theology that are not dogma but are part of the tradition.

1791
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:11,399
For example, I don't know, like, how would you interpret

1792
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:14,439
you know, Matthew twenty four. There's not a dogma on

1793
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:16,840
the interpretation of Matthew twenty four. You have a lot

1794
01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:19,319
of theologians and people talking about it in church fathers

1795
01:27:19,319 --> 01:27:21,960
and Christistom, and you know, have sermons and homilies on

1796
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:24,159
Matthew twenty four or whatever, or you know, how to

1797
01:27:24,199 --> 01:27:26,239
interpret every aspect of the Book of Revelation. Right, There's

1798
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:31,039
going to be areas of mystical theology that are unclear

1799
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:35,479
and probably only advanced very advanced people understand some of

1800
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:39,079
these things. But so this is a part of the

1801
01:27:39,159 --> 01:27:41,840
Orthodox tradition. There's multiple books that have put out on this.

1802
01:27:41,960 --> 01:27:44,520
I think the Greek Orthodox Monastery has a whole book

1803
01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:47,680
about this, The name escapes me, but it's a really big,

1804
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:51,439
thick book, but a more accessible book, as Father serfrom

1805
01:27:51,479 --> 01:27:52,399
Rose's book.

1806
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 3: Life of the Soul after Death.

1807
01:27:56,479 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 2: And it's part of our tradition that we think that

1808
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:00,359
there is a kind of a journey that the soul

1809
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:04,840
takes after death, that's it's not purgatory, but that there

1810
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:07,399
is a return to God that does occur. And there

1811
01:28:07,479 --> 01:28:11,399
is substantial liturgical and mystical tradition evidence for this position.

1812
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:15,399
Speaker 1: And so you're returning to God and there is it's

1813
01:28:15,479 --> 01:28:20,119
not purgatory. So so Protestants would hold to like to

1814
01:28:20,159 --> 01:28:22,159
be absent from the bodies to be present with the Lord.

1815
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:25,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's instantaneous, because you have,

1816
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:29,439
for example, in the Old Testament, when when people died,

1817
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:32,479
they went to Hades. That's why Christ preached the Gospel to.

1818
01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:33,199
Speaker 3: Those in Hades.

1819
01:28:33,199 --> 01:28:36,119
Speaker 2: That's the descent into Hades, which, by the way, really

1820
01:28:36,159 --> 01:28:38,039
the Orthodox Church is the only church that continues to

1821
01:28:38,079 --> 01:28:41,000
teach the heroing of Hades, which is ancient tradition.

1822
01:28:41,079 --> 01:28:44,319
Speaker 1: But so the soul house is your your your body

1823
01:28:44,359 --> 01:28:46,439
is your body, or your spirit is going to God.

1824
01:28:46,640 --> 01:28:49,319
It's the return of the soul to God prior to

1825
01:28:49,359 --> 01:28:53,359
the resurrection, and so and then and then there's fighting

1826
01:28:53,399 --> 01:28:54,479
happening over your soul.

1827
01:28:54,840 --> 01:28:57,199
Speaker 2: Well, there's a sort of a judgment that occurs. It's

1828
01:28:57,199 --> 01:29:00,760
say it's the judgment. Even protest and some times talk

1829
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:04,880
about this as the thing of the word the immediate judgment,

1830
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:07,000
which is like prior to the final judgment, the great

1831
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:10,960
White Throne. So, yeah, we think that probably most people

1832
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:13,359
assume that when you die, the soul is judged. It's

1833
01:29:13,399 --> 01:29:15,920
just that in this tradition, the toll houses, it's more

1834
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:19,000
of a flowery sort of you can say, lore, there's

1835
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:21,319
more of a of an idea that it's not just

1836
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:24,319
God sitting there and judging you. It's like you also

1837
01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:27,479
have to angels angelic judgments.

1838
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:30,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so they're trying to judge you based on

1839
01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:31,920
your works and which works you did and.

1840
01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:35,680
Speaker 2: Direct you and that this is partly why we've always

1841
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:36,319
prayed for the dead.

1842
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:37,079
Speaker 3: Uh huh.

1843
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:40,199
Speaker 1: Interesting, Jay, I'm gonna be honest man here, guys. Is

1844
01:29:40,239 --> 01:29:42,399
like when you describe salvation in that way and then

1845
01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:45,520
with the justification, it just sounds scary to me. Bro

1846
01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:50,039
Like this stuff is like not knowing if someone on

1847
01:29:50,119 --> 01:29:52,479
their deathbed, or not knowing God forbid one of our

1848
01:29:52,479 --> 01:29:54,520
grandparents who made a profession of faith is going to

1849
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:56,479
be with Jesus because they weren't in the right church

1850
01:29:56,560 --> 01:29:59,800
or because they didn't have enough works.

1851
01:30:00,079 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 3: Scary view of the afterlife.

1852
01:30:06,039 --> 01:30:08,319
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it seems like there's a lot of

1853
01:30:08,319 --> 01:30:10,399
warnings in scripture about so.

1854
01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:12,119
Speaker 1: There's a lot of warnings about apostasy and a lot

1855
01:30:12,119 --> 01:30:14,840
of warnings about leaving the faith and that sort of stuff,

1856
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:18,840
which which I agree with. Yeah, that that that's that's interesting.

1857
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:24,159
So the toll houses and then you said lore but

1858
01:30:24,279 --> 01:30:27,239
not lore, but I was just I used one of

1859
01:30:27,279 --> 01:30:29,880
the words. So how do you how do you how

1860
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:34,279
are you able to distinguish between which traditions are infallible

1861
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:37,239
and which traditions are not infallible? Like how do you

1862
01:30:37,279 --> 01:30:38,239
make that distinguishment?

1863
01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:42,960
Speaker 2: I think every person at an individual existential level is

1864
01:30:42,960 --> 01:30:45,399
in the same boat with that. So like I'm not

1865
01:30:45,439 --> 01:30:47,640
going to give like a Roman Catholic type argument where

1866
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:50,199
they would say, well the pope tells us, right, I

1867
01:30:50,239 --> 01:30:53,399
think you and me were all in the same boat.

1868
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:55,319
So if I were to ask you about well, how

1869
01:30:55,319 --> 01:30:58,319
do you know what the infallible interpretation of the scriptures is?

1870
01:30:58,760 --> 01:31:00,920
If you ask me what the infallible interpretation of the

1871
01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:03,119
councils and the scriptures is or the Church fathers, Like,

1872
01:31:03,399 --> 01:31:04,560
we're all going to have to at the end of

1873
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:07,840
the day rely on the testimony the Holy Spirit. So

1874
01:31:08,079 --> 01:31:10,880
where we differ though, would be the means that the

1875
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:12,960
Holy Spirit uses. So I believe the Holy Spirit is

1876
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:15,840
going to use not just the scriptures, but the liturgy.

1877
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:19,279
It's going to use, you know, the tradition of the Church.

1878
01:31:19,319 --> 01:31:20,920
It's going to use the lives of the Saints, the

1879
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:23,479
teaching the Church fathers. So it's a lot broader in

1880
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:25,920
terms of like where I'm going to as in be

1881
01:31:26,039 --> 01:31:30,199
getting information as infallible information. Well, it's not all going

1882
01:31:30,239 --> 01:31:32,319
to be infallible, okay, So I'm going to say that

1883
01:31:32,359 --> 01:31:34,920
I have to rely on the tradition of the Church,

1884
01:31:35,359 --> 01:31:40,600
teachings of the councils, lives of the Saints, the the

1885
01:31:40,640 --> 01:31:44,520
liturgy itself. Those are all going to inform my sources

1886
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:48,239
for where I get infallibility. And so the totality of

1887
01:31:48,279 --> 01:31:52,479
the Apostolic deposit for us all divine revelation, not just

1888
01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:54,840
the written text, but also what Paul and the Apostles

1889
01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:55,640
taught orally.

1890
01:31:56,159 --> 01:31:58,600
Speaker 1: Which which you guys believe has been passed down orally,

1891
01:31:59,279 --> 01:32:02,479
for example, how to worship God. There's no New Testament

1892
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:05,479
pattern of worship. There's things that Paul warns about, but

1893
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:07,119
you don't get an actual liturgical service.

1894
01:32:07,279 --> 01:32:10,520
Speaker 2: Well, thankfully, the Apostles actually did leave that. Many Protestants

1895
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:16,760
admit that there's ancient liturgical apostologics like the Decay. No,

1896
01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:19,119
I'm talking about the actual apostolic like if you go

1897
01:32:19,199 --> 01:32:20,960
to the one of the oldest liturgies as the Lilergy

1898
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:24,720
of Saint Mark. So if you go to Alexandria, that's

1899
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:28,479
believed to be the ancient liturgy that Mark delivered. And

1900
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:31,399
my point is that if you look at the Viticus eleven,

1901
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:34,399
like native and Abaye who like worship is very important?

1902
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:35,039
Speaker 3: Right?

1903
01:32:35,079 --> 01:32:38,000
Speaker 2: God kills people for not worshiping the right way. In Corinthians,

1904
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,560
if you eat unworthily the Lord's supper, many are sick

1905
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:44,800
and dead among you, right, So it would seem like

1906
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:49,439
the pattern of worship itself is very important. The New

1907
01:32:49,479 --> 01:32:51,119
Testament doesn't give us a liturgy.

1908
01:32:51,199 --> 01:32:54,920
Speaker 1: Are you guys following Mark's liturgy. That's one example in

1909
01:32:54,920 --> 01:32:57,239
an Apostolic see, so what do you get these.

1910
01:32:57,079 --> 01:32:59,279
Speaker 3: Liturgy, these oral liturgies.

1911
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:01,279
Speaker 2: They're saying, they're not world they're written down and say

1912
01:33:01,359 --> 01:33:06,000
by necessity they have to be extra canonical and Apostolic

1913
01:33:06,079 --> 01:33:08,239
in their origin. That's why I can go read if

1914
01:33:08,319 --> 01:33:11,520
Apostolic church fathers like Justin Martyr and they described the liturgy.

1915
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:13,880
He describes the liturgy in his day. So there was

1916
01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:19,319
some Apostolic liturgical tradition that Protestant scholars like Hugh Weybrew

1917
01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:22,720
admit were handed down by the Apostles. So they're not

1918
01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:27,399
in the Bible because they're by definition liturgical texts that

1919
01:33:28,359 --> 01:33:31,000
are the context for the Bible. For us, the Bible

1920
01:33:31,159 --> 01:33:34,880
was not a private devotional book. Mainly it can be that,

1921
01:33:35,319 --> 01:33:38,359
but it's mainly meant to be heard and sung in

1922
01:33:38,399 --> 01:33:41,279
the liturgy. That's the context of the Bible. So for us,

1923
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:45,239
that's why liturgy was important in determining the canon itself.

1924
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:48,239
The electionaries had a huge role in the canonicity of

1925
01:33:48,239 --> 01:33:51,119
the scriptures. Okay, So liturgy is actually the context for

1926
01:33:51,159 --> 01:33:52,680
the scriptures, not the other way around.

1927
01:33:53,000 --> 01:33:58,239
Speaker 1: Interesting, okay, And so these things that are passed down

1928
01:33:58,399 --> 01:34:01,880
give you guidance on how to do his service, like

1929
01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:03,399
how to do the liturgy on a Sunday morning.

1930
01:34:04,119 --> 01:34:09,359
Speaker 2: You think the Apostles laid down the structure of liturgical services.

1931
01:34:09,359 --> 01:34:11,800
And that's why whether you go to Alexandria, or whether

1932
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:14,399
you go to Rome the ancient Roman liturgy, or whether

1933
01:34:14,479 --> 01:34:18,479
you go to constantin Noble Byzantium, all of these in

1934
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:22,039
their origin are Apostolic. It doesn't mean that I have

1935
01:34:23,079 --> 01:34:26,359
the copy of like when Paul went to Ephesus and

1936
01:34:26,399 --> 01:34:28,600
he said, here's how you do the liturgy on We don't.

1937
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:31,479
Nobody has those texts, just like we don't have AUTOGRAPHA

1938
01:34:31,479 --> 01:34:35,359
of Paul's letters to Timothy. So we're trusting that the

1939
01:34:35,479 --> 01:34:38,920
Church preserved not just the text of scripture, the tradition,

1940
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:41,880
but also the liturgical pattern of worship. And even the

1941
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:45,279
Protestant scholars will admit that, Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with that.

1942
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:48,640
Speaker 1: I'm asking, how does then one know if those are

1943
01:34:49,079 --> 01:34:52,239
what sources I guess are infallible versus not infallible.

1944
01:34:52,279 --> 01:34:56,760
Speaker 2: There is not an Protestant or a Roman Catholic list

1945
01:34:57,000 --> 01:34:59,840
of the things, and I'm arguing that no one has

1946
01:34:59,880 --> 01:35:02,960
the We're all in the same boat that I would

1947
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,680
have to go to an Orthodox church, live it and

1948
01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:09,479
be imbibed in it to have a sense of what

1949
01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:12,399
the infallible versus the non infallible traditional there's no other.

1950
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:15,680
There's not like just like if you ask a romancality,

1951
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:19,119
for example, like what is the infallible lists of the

1952
01:35:19,119 --> 01:35:20,079
infallible dogmas?

1953
01:35:20,239 --> 01:35:20,760
Speaker 3: There is one?

1954
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:23,479
Speaker 2: Right, So if you ask an Orthodox person, what is

1955
01:35:23,479 --> 01:35:25,159
the infallible list of Orthodox dogmas?

1956
01:35:25,159 --> 01:35:28,680
Speaker 3: There's not one? But fair enough, so no one has that, No, no,

1957
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:31,159
I know, And thus I don't make that really a

1958
01:35:31,239 --> 01:35:32,479
key line of argumentation.

1959
01:35:32,720 --> 01:35:34,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I mean I think I think that the

1960
01:35:34,640 --> 01:35:36,640
tricky part with that then is it does seem that

1961
01:35:36,640 --> 01:35:39,960
that can also be a bit subjective to experience, right.

1962
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:43,520
Speaker 2: It's but it's problem, But it's not, it's and I

1963
01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:45,960
would agree, like we have, there's no way to avoid

1964
01:35:46,279 --> 01:35:47,079
some degree.

1965
01:35:47,159 --> 01:35:49,560
Speaker 3: Some degree of being subjective to our experience.

1966
01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:52,760
Speaker 2: But well, something can be partly subjective and also objective.

1967
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:54,039
It's not sure, it doesn't have to be either.

1968
01:35:54,119 --> 01:35:55,439
Speaker 1: Or let me bounce this off of you. How do

1969
01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:59,159
you feel about the wesley In quadrilateral? What the Wesleyan quadrilateral.

1970
01:35:59,159 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 3: I'm not familiar.

1971
01:35:59,760 --> 01:36:03,520
Speaker 1: Okay, So the western quadrilateral is how does one come

1972
01:36:03,560 --> 01:36:05,199
to conclusions of what is true?

1973
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:05,600
Speaker 3: Right?

1974
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:13,039
Speaker 1: What is reasonable? The West end quadrilateral is the idea

1975
01:36:13,159 --> 01:36:15,760
that we're filtering. And I'm not a wrestling for the record,

1976
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:16,920
but I like this. I think, like when it comes

1977
01:36:16,920 --> 01:36:19,039
to pestemology, this just makes the most amount of sense

1978
01:36:19,079 --> 01:36:29,920
to me. Scripture, church, tradition, experience, and reasoning. So we

1979
01:36:30,039 --> 01:36:32,840
use all four sure scripture being the only infallible one,

1980
01:36:33,199 --> 01:36:37,079
right because in my circles charismatics, God told me this,

1981
01:36:37,199 --> 01:36:38,720
God gave me a word, God gave me a vision.

1982
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:39,880
Well it's like, well, no, God's not going to give

1983
01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:42,920
you something that's going to contradict scripture. So your experience

1984
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:46,600
has to submit to scripture. Scripture is the only infallible authority.

1985
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:49,479
But we also believe that there's a lot of amazing

1986
01:36:49,520 --> 01:36:53,159
authorities in church history. There's amazing authorities within our local churches.

1987
01:36:53,199 --> 01:36:56,239
My pastor has authority, he's just not an infallible authority.

1988
01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:59,640
And then also reasoning and using your mind and logic

1989
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:01,119
and all to all the things that I think God

1990
01:37:01,119 --> 01:37:04,119
also created. From your perspective, like what do you what

1991
01:37:04,119 --> 01:37:06,239
do you think of that the Western Quadrilateral as a

1992
01:37:07,039 --> 01:37:09,159
system of how I personally do my best to come

1993
01:37:09,199 --> 01:37:09,840
to truth.

1994
01:37:09,960 --> 01:37:10,079
Speaker 3: Right.

1995
01:37:10,119 --> 01:37:12,600
Speaker 1: This is my this is how my epistemology works, like

1996
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:14,680
I think of those four categories.

1997
01:37:14,680 --> 01:37:17,600
Speaker 2: So I would argue that scripture itself, especially in Paul's

1998
01:37:17,600 --> 01:37:21,479
epistles or even when Peter's talking. Paul says that he

1999
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:23,720
taught for three days and three nights or two me

2000
01:37:23,720 --> 01:37:26,319
three years, three three years, day and night in Ephesus,

2001
01:37:26,359 --> 01:37:29,159
and he tells Timothy and the epistles to Timothy that

2002
01:37:29,239 --> 01:37:30,720
everything that you heard from me, in the presence of

2003
01:37:30,720 --> 01:37:33,560
many witnesses, passed that on to men after you. He

2004
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:36,600
only wrote Timothy two letters that we know of at Ephysis,

2005
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:39,600
but he taught there early, so there's a three year

2006
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:45,439
Pauline katechisis tradition that Timothy hears. Timothy is instructed to

2007
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:49,520
lay hands on men after him who are of good testimony,

2008
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:51,920
because the giving of the Holy Spirit is transferred in

2009
01:37:51,960 --> 01:37:54,520
the laying on of hands. Paul says, that's abslot succession.

2010
01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:57,760
And to my knowledge, there's no Protestant group or denomination

2011
01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:00,399
at all that believes that the Holy Spirit is transferred

2012
01:38:00,399 --> 01:38:01,800
in the laying on of hands. So for us, that's

2013
01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:05,159
a very important apostolic succession. Say that what we're saying,

2014
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:08,680
there are no Protestant churches that teach that there's a

2015
01:38:08,800 --> 01:38:12,640
sacrament of apostolic succession through the laying out of hands.

2016
01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:15,560
Speaker 3: That's a historical succession. Okay, okay, I mean we believe

2017
01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:17,560
on laying on of the hands, and I will say

2018
01:38:17,680 --> 01:38:25,439
all is laying down a historical reality. Telling Timothy in Ephesis,

2019
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:28,159
you are the appointed authority, not all these other people.

2020
01:38:28,399 --> 01:38:32,159
I lay hands on you. You lay hands on good men.

2021
01:38:32,319 --> 01:38:35,159
Be careful who you choose, because the Holy Spirit is

2022
01:38:35,159 --> 01:38:37,279
passed on in that laying out of hands. So when

2023
01:38:37,319 --> 01:38:41,319
you go to Ephesus, there are still today Orthodox churches

2024
01:38:41,359 --> 01:38:43,520
that have that same descent all the way back to

2025
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:44,399
Timoth to Timothy.

2026
01:38:44,439 --> 01:38:47,079
Speaker 2: Correct, that's what we're we think it's a historical reality,

2027
01:38:47,399 --> 01:38:50,399
not a thing that died. Jesus says that in the

2028
01:38:50,439 --> 01:38:51,920
Book of John, we was talking about the promise the

2029
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:53,960
Holy Spirit. He says, I'll be with you until the

2030
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:55,439
end of days. I will not leave you. I will

2031
01:38:55,560 --> 01:38:56,960
the Spirit will lead you, and God you in all truth.

2032
01:38:57,039 --> 01:39:00,479
So for us, the idea that the collective church in

2033
01:39:00,600 --> 01:39:04,199
history could lose that, lose the Gospel, lose any of that.

2034
01:39:04,439 --> 01:39:07,159
On a collective sense, you can have individual churches or

2035
01:39:07,239 --> 01:39:10,000
nations fall away revelation to and the rewards of that.

2036
01:39:10,039 --> 01:39:12,640
I will take your lambstand sure, But the totality of

2037
01:39:12,640 --> 01:39:15,079
the church could never fall away. The gates fell can't prevail,

2038
01:39:15,600 --> 01:39:17,560
So for us, it would not be possible for that

2039
01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:22,840
succession to die or to fail. And that's why, whether

2040
01:39:22,880 --> 01:39:25,359
it's the pre Nicene fathers or all the fathers in

2041
01:39:25,399 --> 01:39:27,840
those councils, they're teaching the same doctions san theology. Each

2042
01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:30,439
council refers back to the previous councils.

2043
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:32,600
Speaker 1: I get that, But is it in your view that

2044
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:36,199
the Apostolic succession is it a part of the other

2045
01:39:36,279 --> 01:39:37,840
churches that claim to be the one and true Church?

2046
01:39:38,600 --> 01:39:42,199
Speaker 3: Well, you can stop. What do you mean? Catholics have

2047
01:39:42,239 --> 01:39:44,880
apostolic succession, so if you leave the church, you don't

2048
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:45,960
have episoltic succession.

2049
01:39:45,960 --> 01:39:49,039
Speaker 2: In the Orthodox view, it's not a mechanical thing that

2050
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:52,680
exists apart from having the faith. So for example, an

2051
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:56,039
Athenasius he writes festal letters and he says, everyone who

2052
01:39:56,119 --> 01:40:00,920
celebrates the feast talking about pasca outside the yeah, he says,

2053
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:01,640
it's not a feast.

2054
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:02,239
Speaker 3: They don't have it.

2055
01:40:02,319 --> 01:40:04,119
Speaker 1: I guess I guess all I'm saying what I was

2056
01:40:04,159 --> 01:40:07,520
getting at is and this is you guys will well,

2057
01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:09,520
you guys sort this out much better than I can.

2058
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:11,920
Is like, from their vantage point, they don't feel like

2059
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:14,600
they left the church. The other seven churches.

2060
01:40:14,239 --> 01:40:15,880
Speaker 2: Don't everything to do with whether they did or didn't.

2061
01:40:16,079 --> 01:40:18,760
Like the fact that they feel that way. That's a fallacy, right,

2062
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:21,039
so I could So that'd be like saying that, well,

2063
01:40:21,039 --> 01:40:23,479
a lot of people don't believe in the arguments for

2064
01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:24,920
God's existence are convincing, So.

2065
01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:27,159
Speaker 3: That's that's not what I mean. I mean.

2066
01:40:27,159 --> 01:40:29,560
Speaker 1: I'm saying, I'm sure if we sat down with the

2067
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:33,000
leading Catholic apologists, the leading Oriental Wealth apologists, they would

2068
01:40:33,039 --> 01:40:35,640
have their own systematic theology and they would make their

2069
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:37,960
own arguments for it, and those two would.

2070
01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:40,079
Speaker 3: Probably nothing to do with which positions correct or not.

2071
01:40:40,479 --> 01:40:42,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't, but but it does seem like there's there

2072
01:40:42,560 --> 01:40:45,560
seems to be a degree of subjectivity to concluding which

2073
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:46,279
is the one true church.

2074
01:40:46,279 --> 01:40:48,760
Speaker 2: The fact that a person makes an argument that comes

2075
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:51,279
from them does not mean that it's purely subjective.

2076
01:40:51,479 --> 01:40:53,199
Speaker 3: That's that's an epistemic mistake.

2077
01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:55,880
Speaker 2: So every one of us makes an argument and they

2078
01:40:55,880 --> 01:40:59,039
come from a subjective person, that doesn't mean that subjectivism

2079
01:40:59,119 --> 01:40:59,800
is the case.

2080
01:40:59,800 --> 01:41:03,119
Speaker 1: Right, I make that claim. I'm saying that if you

2081
01:41:03,199 --> 01:41:05,600
have great arguments, and they have great arguments, and they're

2082
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:08,880
using the rules of logic, and they're using history, and

2083
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:11,119
they could point to their sources, they can make the

2084
01:41:11,119 --> 01:41:13,640
same arguments, right, which I don't. I'm not trying to

2085
01:41:13,720 --> 01:41:15,640
just don't buy that. I mean, I understand why you

2086
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:16,840
don't by that, because you know.

2087
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:19,319
Speaker 2: I mean, you have the same type of position that

2088
01:41:19,680 --> 01:41:22,840
you have a take, and you don't agree with my take,

2089
01:41:23,279 --> 01:41:25,119
and so you have sources, and so that would just

2090
01:41:25,279 --> 01:41:27,560
be relativizing all argumentation, all positions.

2091
01:41:28,239 --> 01:41:30,920
Speaker 1: So again, Jay, and my take, I think there's a

2092
01:41:31,119 --> 01:41:34,199
capital C bigger church which you would disagree with, and

2093
01:41:34,239 --> 01:41:36,920
I think in that capital CE all believers everywhere from

2094
01:41:36,960 --> 01:41:38,479
all denominations are part of that capital.

2095
01:41:38,600 --> 01:41:38,760
Speaker 3: I know.

2096
01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:41,600
Speaker 2: I'm just pointing out that the argument that you're making

2097
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:43,680
violates the very thing that you.

2098
01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:46,720
Speaker 3: Just said would relativize the positions. The argument that I'm

2099
01:41:46,760 --> 01:41:47,760
making right now, Your.

2100
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:50,359
Speaker 2: Argument is no different than anyone else's argument you're citing.

2101
01:41:50,359 --> 01:41:52,880
You're saying I have this position, they have that position,

2102
01:41:52,960 --> 01:41:55,119
you have your position. Yeah, of course, but that has

2103
01:41:55,159 --> 01:41:57,239
nothing to do with which ones tru or false. Okay,

2104
01:41:57,319 --> 01:42:01,720
so what you were arguing doesn't pertain too whether or

2105
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:04,279
not the Catholic Church or the Orthodour Church is correct.

2106
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:06,359
You're just saying that, well, they have arguments.

2107
01:42:06,840 --> 01:42:09,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm saying I've heard compelling arguments from all sides,

2108
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:12,039
that's all I'm saying. And I'm saying, I've heard you

2109
01:42:12,079 --> 01:42:14,640
make great arguments that I've heard Catholics make. I've heard

2110
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:16,560
the reason make good arguments. I've heard a lot of

2111
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:17,279
that's foul.

2112
01:42:17,399 --> 01:42:19,680
Speaker 3: It's called a psychological report. That's a fallacy.

2113
01:42:20,159 --> 01:42:22,560
Speaker 1: Why is it a fallacy because I've heard good arguments

2114
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:24,800
and I say, hey, you guys all got great arguments.

2115
01:42:24,399 --> 01:42:31,159
Speaker 2: Your cycle, it's called psychological reports, felas. I'm genuinely It's

2116
01:42:31,159 --> 01:42:33,239
still like when I debate Matt Delahuney and he says,

2117
01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:36,000
I've heard all your arguments, I don't find them convincing.

2118
01:42:37,319 --> 01:42:41,640
It's called psychological reporting, which is not relevant to the debate.

2119
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:44,119
The fact that you don't find it convincing has nothing

2120
01:42:44,159 --> 01:42:46,960
to do with the topic at hand.

2121
01:42:47,039 --> 01:42:49,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think I said I don't find it convincing.

2122
01:42:49,199 --> 01:42:50,319
I think you're very convincing.

2123
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:50,640
Speaker 3: Jay.

2124
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:53,239
Speaker 1: No, you say no, I'm saying I've heard great arguments

2125
01:42:53,279 --> 01:42:55,119
from from all these streams, not all.

2126
01:42:55,199 --> 01:42:55,840
Speaker 3: That's the equivalent.

2127
01:42:55,840 --> 01:42:58,800
Speaker 2: It's just saying that they think their arguments are convincing.

2128
01:42:59,039 --> 01:43:01,319
You think this is convinced, saying I think my position

2129
01:43:01,319 --> 01:43:05,760
it's the same principle. It's a psychological report, and it's

2130
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:06,760
just it's a fallacy.

2131
01:43:07,199 --> 01:43:08,520
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to be a douce. She just is

2132
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:09,039
a fallacy.

2133
01:43:09,119 --> 01:43:13,279
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is I'm hearing truth claims made by

2134
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:16,000
all of these different churches that are all making very

2135
01:43:16,000 --> 01:43:16,920
similar claims to you.

2136
01:43:17,079 --> 01:43:20,079
Speaker 3: But that's not an argument. It's a fallacy. Okay.

2137
01:43:20,319 --> 01:43:22,640
Speaker 1: So I'm not even trying to argue with you. I'm

2138
01:43:22,640 --> 01:43:25,439
just giving you my paradig I'm saying for my paradigm, Jay,

2139
01:43:25,479 --> 01:43:27,079
I'm looking around. I'm saying, man, there's a lot of

2140
01:43:27,079 --> 01:43:29,640
these churches that are all claiming the same thing you're claiming.

2141
01:43:30,079 --> 01:43:33,640
And it seems like I have the average person that's

2142
01:43:33,640 --> 01:43:36,119
trying to find a church that's apostolic and is the

2143
01:43:36,159 --> 01:43:40,399
one true Church, has a mountain of evidence to go

2144
01:43:40,479 --> 01:43:42,720
through and a lot of thinking to do. And when

2145
01:43:42,720 --> 01:43:45,640
I look at that, I go, man, it sure seems

2146
01:43:45,720 --> 01:43:48,720
like repent and believe in Jesus for the forgiveness of

2147
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:51,359
your sins is a more simple and the sure pathway

2148
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:52,159
to salvation.

2149
01:43:52,279 --> 01:43:53,159
Speaker 3: Heal to simplicity.

2150
01:43:53,239 --> 01:43:55,800
Speaker 2: So like when I debate the Muslims, they'll say, you

2151
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:59,520
have all this trinitarian theologists complex, Islam is very simple,

2152
01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:02,920
just as they'll say you just you just just believe

2153
01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:03,840
in the four principles.

2154
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:07,079
Speaker 3: As there. Daniel made that argument that Islam's true because

2155
01:44:07,079 --> 01:44:08,840
it's simple. Okay, that's another fallacy.

2156
01:44:08,960 --> 01:44:13,159
Speaker 1: Okay, So because certain Christian groups hold to a simple,

2157
01:44:13,279 --> 01:44:17,199
simple view of the Gospel, that then invalidates said position.

2158
01:44:20,039 --> 01:44:21,920
Speaker 2: It's just a yeah. I'm not saying it makes it correct.

2159
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:24,680
It's just it's just an oversimplification. So it would be

2160
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:27,319
the fallacy of oversimplication, or just appeal to simplicity.

2161
01:44:27,479 --> 01:44:30,840
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, and appeal to simplicity. That's fair. I think

2162
01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:34,159
I think God is simple. I think salvation is simple.

2163
01:44:34,479 --> 01:44:37,439
I think people who come to Jesus and experience a

2164
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:40,319
transformed heart, new heart's new desires. I would argue an

2165
01:44:40,319 --> 01:44:43,279
ontological change on the on the identity basis. I think

2166
01:44:43,279 --> 01:44:44,119
that's fairly simple.

2167
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:46,199
Speaker 3: I mean I could, I would al sory. It's kind

2168
01:44:46,199 --> 01:44:47,680
of an equivocation fallacy.

2169
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:50,479
Speaker 2: So because God is simple as a being, that has

2170
01:44:50,479 --> 01:44:52,640
nothing to do with whether the message of the Gospel

2171
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:54,800
is equated to what you're saying is simplicity.

2172
01:44:55,239 --> 01:44:59,600
Speaker 3: So it's another non sequitor. So repent and believe it

2173
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:00,520
doesn't articulate.

2174
01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:02,239
Speaker 2: I mean, is that the only passage or does he

2175
01:45:02,279 --> 01:45:04,079
also say an acts to repent and believe and be

2176
01:45:04,119 --> 01:45:05,520
baptized for the remission of sins.

2177
01:45:05,520 --> 01:45:07,119
Speaker 3: I think you should be. I think you should be.

2178
01:45:07,359 --> 01:45:09,439
Speaker 2: But it's baptism for the remission of sins. And then

2179
01:45:09,479 --> 01:45:11,079
they water baptize a few thousand people.

2180
01:45:11,159 --> 01:45:14,560
Speaker 3: Huh. So the baptism that's water baptism is the remission

2181
01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:15,000
of the sense.

2182
01:45:15,079 --> 01:45:17,039
Speaker 1: Sure, I believe in baptism. I think people should know

2183
01:45:17,119 --> 01:45:21,119
baptismal regeneration. You holds a baptismal regeneration Acts two thirty nine.

2184
01:45:21,479 --> 01:45:23,880
So but here's the thing, Jay, you holds a baptismal regeneration,

2185
01:45:24,239 --> 01:45:26,800
someone is not born again? Am I tracking correctly about

2186
01:45:26,800 --> 01:45:27,800
to unless they're baptized.

2187
01:45:27,880 --> 01:45:32,000
Speaker 2: Yes, uh, well again a catechumen who dies on the

2188
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:33,079
way to the baptism.

2189
01:45:33,159 --> 01:45:35,359
Speaker 1: So there's a nuance to it, That's what I'm getting out.

2190
01:45:35,359 --> 01:45:37,439
But no, you're not born again until you're baptized, correct,

2191
01:45:37,439 --> 01:45:41,399
But you could still go to heaven in the case

2192
01:45:41,439 --> 01:45:45,760
of people who are not intentionally thwarting it. That's just

2193
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:47,560
like the thief on the cross, right, right. I think

2194
01:45:47,600 --> 01:45:49,479
God is merciful and he makes ways.

2195
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:52,640
Speaker 3: He's not. God is merciful, a miser. He's not there

2196
01:45:52,720 --> 01:45:54,199
to like try to cast people out.

2197
01:45:54,239 --> 01:45:56,720
Speaker 2: He wants and loves man, yes, say, and the leturgy

2198
01:45:56,840 --> 01:45:57,720
is the lover of mankind.

2199
01:45:57,760 --> 01:45:58,000
Speaker 3: Amen.

2200
01:45:58,079 --> 01:46:00,279
Speaker 1: But that doesn't so he's still creating pathways for people

2201
01:46:00,279 --> 01:46:01,359
that don't do all the right things.

2202
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:04,479
Speaker 2: Here's the problem, though, this is this is called taking

2203
01:46:04,640 --> 01:46:06,680
the exception to be the rule. And this is what

2204
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:09,600
Protestants often do. Or they take these exceptions and then

2205
01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:13,119
that becomes the theological paradigm that gets rid of the rule.

2206
01:46:13,239 --> 01:46:15,399
Speaker 3: The rule. Is for example, an Act two thirty eight

2207
01:46:15,399 --> 01:46:16,600
thirty nine, Peter says.

2208
01:46:16,880 --> 01:46:20,159
Speaker 2: Peter doesn't say repent and sola fide, you'll be justified

2209
01:46:20,159 --> 01:46:23,359
by it. He says, repent and be baptized for the

2210
01:46:23,359 --> 01:46:26,560
remission of sins, and then they water baptize people, so

2211
01:46:26,600 --> 01:46:30,439
we know that it's not a Calvinist you say, I'm

2212
01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:33,880
notssing your Calvinist. I'm using example of Invisible Church. He

2213
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:36,760
doesn't say anything about being united. He just says he

2214
01:46:36,800 --> 01:46:37,960
doesn't baptism.

2215
01:46:38,079 --> 01:46:42,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm saying, I understand your your point about exception

2216
01:46:42,840 --> 01:46:44,880
to the rule fallacy. I get that theink's up fair critique.

2217
01:46:44,920 --> 01:46:47,520
What I'm saying is there seems to always be the

2218
01:46:47,560 --> 01:46:50,119
exception to the rule, and I agree with the rule.

2219
01:46:50,760 --> 01:46:52,640
I think you should be baptized. I think you should

2220
01:46:52,640 --> 01:46:54,760
be in a local church. I think you should wage

2221
01:46:54,760 --> 01:46:56,279
war on your sin and become more.

2222
01:46:56,399 --> 01:47:01,600
Speaker 2: I'm just specifically saying the dominant New Testament differences to baptism.

2223
01:47:01,960 --> 01:47:05,119
From our paradigm, we would argue our baptism regeneration like

2224
01:47:05,159 --> 01:47:09,520
Titus three, but the way the Washington Labor regeneration.

2225
01:47:09,279 --> 01:47:12,680
Speaker 1: And if that doesn't happen, someone can be not born

2226
01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:13,840
again but still go to heaven.

2227
01:47:13,960 --> 01:47:18,039
Speaker 2: But that doesn't negate baptism. Regeneration is the point. That's fine, okay,

2228
01:47:18,079 --> 01:47:20,720
but it's not the rule. A most Protestant teaching is

2229
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:23,800
not baptism regeneration. Unless you're listener. There's tons of Protestants

2230
01:47:23,840 --> 01:47:26,520
that hold a baptism regeneration. I just had the guy

2231
01:47:26,600 --> 01:47:29,479
from theos University on that helds the baptism. It is

2232
01:47:29,520 --> 01:47:33,359
not the classical normative Protestant position except for many Lutherans

2233
01:47:33,359 --> 01:47:36,279
believe it. Some Anglicans believe it. But it's not typical

2234
01:47:36,359 --> 01:47:38,399
evangelical Protestant teaching. That's that's fair.

2235
01:47:38,960 --> 01:47:40,760
Speaker 1: All I'm getting at is that there are Protestants that

2236
01:47:40,800 --> 01:47:43,760
hold to it, and there's still exceptions to the rule.

2237
01:47:44,520 --> 01:47:48,159
You guys create nuances, Catholics great nuances. Everyone has exceptions

2238
01:47:48,199 --> 01:47:49,720
to the rule of what a Christian ought to do

2239
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:51,720
versus the reality of when it doesn't happen.

2240
01:47:51,720 --> 01:47:56,399
Speaker 2: But this is this is one doctrine right Baptism, sure right.

2241
01:47:56,399 --> 01:47:59,560
We've got the Eucharists, We've got children, particular the Eucharist.

2242
01:48:00,119 --> 01:48:04,119
We've got a host of things that were already settled.

2243
01:48:04,359 --> 01:48:06,840
And the main problem I would say about Protestant in

2244
01:48:06,920 --> 01:48:09,760
this regard is that each generation has to reinvent the

2245
01:48:09,760 --> 01:48:12,960
wheel and start it all over when we have already

2246
01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:15,680
settled these issues and in fact, in the case of

2247
01:48:17,039 --> 01:48:20,720
the ecclesial reality, the church is already declared and define

2248
01:48:21,119 --> 01:48:24,439
the extent of the body of Christ. Christ is not divided.

2249
01:48:24,439 --> 01:48:27,920
Paul says, he doesn't exist amongst thousands of different competing

2250
01:48:28,000 --> 01:48:31,800
claiming sects, and so if there's no boundaries and guidelines

2251
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:35,000
as to what the visible Church is, and I would

2252
01:48:35,079 --> 01:48:38,359
argue formerly being a Protestant believing in the invisible Church doctrine,

2253
01:48:38,800 --> 01:48:41,439
it contradicts Christology that.

2254
01:48:41,399 --> 01:48:46,000
Speaker 1: Christ's body is divided. And okay, I got you. Tell

2255
01:48:46,000 --> 01:48:47,600
me about comedy in your.

2256
01:48:47,399 --> 01:48:50,800
Speaker 3: In your and your comedy. I want to make sure.

2257
01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:52,199
Speaker 1: I want to make sure we get to we're going

2258
01:48:52,199 --> 01:48:55,119
on four hours, which this is Why are you I'm

2259
01:48:55,119 --> 01:48:58,039
glad you like it. Are you willing to engage like

2260
01:48:58,079 --> 01:49:01,159
in person debates because I'd love to facility. Sure, maybe

2261
01:49:01,520 --> 01:49:05,520
Blescot Summit too. A couple of folks that me versus MADI.

2262
01:49:06,119 --> 01:49:08,359
I'm gonna be I'm gonna be Jim Jones, and I

2263
01:49:08,399 --> 01:49:10,359
want the MADI to be on this. I would love

2264
01:49:10,399 --> 01:49:12,119
to see I don't think this would happen, but I

2265
01:49:12,159 --> 01:49:14,079
would love to see you and Gavin Ortland go over

2266
01:49:14,079 --> 01:49:15,760
it in person. I don't think he would do it.

2267
01:49:16,640 --> 01:49:18,760
Cleave's antiquity would you do something with him in person.

2268
01:49:18,760 --> 01:49:19,760
If we facilitated it.

2269
01:49:21,600 --> 01:49:25,319
Speaker 3: We didn't have the best interaction, but uh maybe, but

2270
01:49:26,119 --> 01:49:29,960
could we not get a larger I don't mean to

2271
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:31,960
be a douchebag. No, no, no, a larger.

2272
01:49:32,159 --> 01:49:33,840
Speaker 1: That's what I don't think. I don't think Gavin would

2273
01:49:33,840 --> 01:49:35,600
do it. I think Gavin is the largest name. That's

2274
01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:39,079
a Protestant apology. What about cosmic sceptic? Do you want

2275
01:49:39,119 --> 01:49:42,079
a debate cosmic sceptic on what atheism?

2276
01:49:42,520 --> 01:49:43,479
Speaker 3: Uh?

2277
01:49:44,079 --> 01:49:45,479
Speaker 1: I mean I would love to see that happen. I

2278
01:49:45,479 --> 01:49:46,960
don't know if he'd do it. I don't think he'd

2279
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:48,720
do it. I think he really wanted to debate. Is

2280
01:49:48,800 --> 01:49:54,159
Jesus God who said? Again? Yeah, we got with the.

2281
01:49:54,119 --> 01:49:54,680
Speaker 3: Timing of that.

2282
01:49:54,760 --> 01:49:56,720
Speaker 1: Was was great with David would because they had already

2283
01:49:56,720 --> 01:49:59,720
had that set up. It fell through the Jihati stuff

2284
01:50:00,119 --> 01:50:02,760
and it was like, hey, let's remember that, you know

2285
01:50:02,800 --> 01:50:04,520
what I mean? And so we got him to do that.

2286
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:06,760
But I mean I would I wouldn't mind asking for sure.

2287
01:50:07,319 --> 01:50:10,239
Speaker 3: Uh, he was supposed to debate who who'd you say

2288
01:50:10,239 --> 01:50:10,760
you were going to say?

2289
01:50:10,800 --> 01:50:15,960
Speaker 1: David Wood was supposed to debate cosmics cosa modern debate

2290
01:50:16,560 --> 01:50:18,199
that seven or whatever it was called.

2291
01:50:18,239 --> 01:50:20,920
Speaker 3: And then there was joh and then he.

2292
01:50:20,920 --> 01:50:23,000
Speaker 1: Dropped out, and then we were able to say, hey,

2293
01:50:23,039 --> 01:50:24,800
let's just do it at our event, and it worked

2294
01:50:24,800 --> 01:50:26,000
out because he was already come in.

2295
01:50:26,039 --> 01:50:29,600
Speaker 2: Why don't we, like we can game plan and figure

2296
01:50:29,600 --> 01:50:31,439
out like a do you do want it to be

2297
01:50:31,479 --> 01:50:32,520
a Protestant or like.

2298
01:50:32,600 --> 01:50:34,600
Speaker 3: A Muslim or just I don't want to do anything

2299
01:50:34,640 --> 01:50:35,159
with Muslims.

2300
01:50:35,520 --> 01:50:37,680
Speaker 1: I think atheists are pretty hard to come by nowadays

2301
01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:41,039
in terms of atheists that are willing to engage. I know, uh,

2302
01:50:41,079 --> 01:50:44,039
And there's not a lot of Protestant apologists that are

2303
01:50:44,239 --> 01:50:46,840
like even trying to wave the flag of like we're

2304
01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:49,920
defending because because we believe in the invisible chructure, because

2305
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:51,640
we believe you guys are in those Are you guys

2306
01:50:51,680 --> 01:50:53,680
that believe Jesus died for your sins and place your

2307
01:50:53,680 --> 01:50:56,039
faith in him. There's not There's not a lot of them,

2308
01:50:56,199 --> 01:50:59,159
and so you tend to really discuss these things a lot, right,

2309
01:50:59,239 --> 01:51:03,000
And so that's why I, oh, well, Jay versus a cleaps.

2310
01:51:02,720 --> 01:51:04,079
Speaker 3: To west half.

2311
01:51:04,560 --> 01:51:07,720
Speaker 1: We's how I could ask my he hees loosely confirmed

2312
01:51:07,720 --> 01:51:10,239
for night one of our debate Blesscot summit.

2313
01:51:10,319 --> 01:51:13,800
Speaker 3: So what would you want to debate him about I'm flexible, like.

2314
01:51:13,720 --> 01:51:17,319
Speaker 2: What whatever he thinks or you think I'm open?

2315
01:51:17,479 --> 01:51:19,640
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that's that's a great idea. Yeah, he'll be

2316
01:51:19,760 --> 01:51:21,560
I think we got a soft yes from Wes on

2317
01:51:22,880 --> 01:51:27,279
Canon scripture. Yeah, Canon scripture West half say Dire, that'll

2318
01:51:27,319 --> 01:51:30,920
be fire. I think you're You're way more pleasant in

2319
01:51:30,960 --> 01:51:33,600
person then you come off online, and I think I

2320
01:51:33,640 --> 01:51:36,279
think hopefully people who see this well, keep in mind

2321
01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:41,159
online you're also dealing with, like you know, bad faith actors.

2322
01:51:41,880 --> 01:51:46,439
Speaker 3: Many. I'll mention it to Wes anyway, and if not,

2323
01:51:46,560 --> 01:51:48,720
we'll keep it open to other people possibilities.

2324
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:53,520
Speaker 1: Okay, comedy, tell me about the comedy direction. It seems

2325
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:58,720
to be a disarming tool used in Bye Bye Bye

2326
01:51:58,760 --> 01:52:01,319
Brilliant Communicators. Is that your your use of comedy is

2327
01:52:01,359 --> 01:52:02,840
that you see it as like a, hey, this is

2328
01:52:02,880 --> 01:52:05,800
a great tool to disarm the impressions like all the

2329
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:08,560
all the stuff that you incorporate in terms of the

2330
01:52:09,159 --> 01:52:11,880
broader thing you're building that is ja Dire, which is

2331
01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:16,159
not just a Catholic Protestant Orthodox stuff the broader community.

2332
01:52:16,359 --> 01:52:18,039
But I everyone thought about it is disarming, But I

2333
01:52:18,039 --> 01:52:19,720
guess it could be I mean, I think it's very disarming.

2334
01:52:19,960 --> 01:52:22,520
I think anyone that that can make somebody trouble. Yeah,

2335
01:52:22,520 --> 01:52:24,880
for sure, that's a good point. Now it's just really

2336
01:52:24,920 --> 01:52:28,720
just something that is just I'm just a naturally goofy dude,

2337
01:52:28,800 --> 01:52:33,720
Like I got superlatives, like in high school, Like I

2338
01:52:33,760 --> 01:52:35,880
was wittiest in my high school. I used to do

2339
01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:38,359
stand up. When I graduated, I went to New York

2340
01:52:38,399 --> 01:52:40,079
and did a bunch of comedy club like opened the

2341
01:52:40,279 --> 01:52:43,560
Mike Knights and stuff. And that was before getting serichs

2342
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:45,760
about Christianity. And then I kind of, you know, just

2343
01:52:45,760 --> 01:52:47,720
didn't think about anything like that for a long time.

2344
01:52:47,840 --> 01:52:49,319
When you do an open mic scene in New York,

2345
01:52:49,359 --> 01:52:51,760
were you was it like a five minute set you

2346
01:52:51,800 --> 01:52:53,319
had or yeah, yeah.

2347
01:52:53,680 --> 01:52:56,680
Speaker 2: This is like nineteen ninety eight, so nice seven ninety eight.

2348
01:52:57,319 --> 01:52:59,239
And then when I came back from being in New

2349
01:52:59,279 --> 01:53:01,239
York for a while, I did like open mic in

2350
01:53:01,319 --> 01:53:04,680
Nashville for you for a year or so. It was

2351
01:53:04,680 --> 01:53:06,680
fun to do, but like I was very like I

2352
01:53:06,720 --> 01:53:07,960
just I w wasn't a Christian at the time.

2353
01:53:07,960 --> 01:53:10,279
Speaker 3: I was just kind of wild and being.

2354
01:53:10,119 --> 01:53:14,359
Speaker 2: Silly and it's kind of raunchyr routine. But then you know,

2355
01:53:14,399 --> 01:53:16,199
over the years, I would like, you know, jot down

2356
01:53:16,239 --> 01:53:19,840
ideas and write down skits and stuff. And probably the

2357
01:53:20,119 --> 01:53:22,840
big breakthrough that we had with with that was being

2358
01:53:22,920 --> 01:53:25,560
on The Tucker Show where I did the whole skit

2359
01:53:25,600 --> 01:53:27,479
where I was dressed up as klus Schwab and went

2360
01:53:27,479 --> 01:53:28,239
around New York.

2361
01:53:28,079 --> 01:53:30,560
Speaker 3: And going around Austin. And that was a great skit.

2362
01:53:30,640 --> 01:53:33,840
Speaker 2: And so I appreciate Tucker and Scooter for you know,

2363
01:53:33,920 --> 01:53:36,119
making that opportunity happen. And then that led to other,

2364
01:53:36,199 --> 01:53:38,720
you know doors that we did a lot of podcasts

2365
01:53:38,720 --> 01:53:41,479
with comedians over the last five years and networked with

2366
01:53:41,520 --> 01:53:42,079
those guys.

2367
01:53:42,079 --> 01:53:44,840
Speaker 1: And would you ever see yourself doing just straight up

2368
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:47,520
stand up like you're writing such jokes. Maybe you have

2369
01:53:47,520 --> 01:53:49,520
writers with you and that's like the main thing of

2370
01:53:49,520 --> 01:53:50,279
your life event.

2371
01:53:50,159 --> 01:53:52,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm open to that, it's just I'm not Like.

2372
01:53:52,279 --> 01:53:54,600
The problem is, I don't live near a place you

2373
01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:56,840
need to practice stand up you know what I mean,

2374
01:53:57,039 --> 01:54:00,760
to be a stand up It's not really good venues

2375
01:54:00,800 --> 01:54:03,079
in the middle of nowhere, Tennessee. So I we'd have

2376
01:54:03,119 --> 01:54:06,039
to move and I mean maybe in the future, but

2377
01:54:06,079 --> 01:54:09,479
for the meantime, like doing I write for Sam Hyde

2378
01:54:09,720 --> 01:54:12,199
and he started a show a few months ago, sam

2379
01:54:12,239 --> 01:54:16,520
I'd show. First episode got twenty million views across like

2380
01:54:16,600 --> 01:54:23,239
most platforms, counting YouTube, counting acts. Huge huge thing went viral,

2381
01:54:23,600 --> 01:54:27,199
got clipped shared millions of times, and then.

2382
01:54:27,920 --> 01:54:30,920
Speaker 3: Episodes two, three, four did pretty good. So I'm really

2383
01:54:31,000 --> 01:54:31,760
enjoying doing that.

2384
01:54:32,199 --> 01:54:35,920
Speaker 2: And it's a way to do comedy without like just

2385
01:54:35,960 --> 01:54:39,840
pure stand up like writing for him. So but I'd

2386
01:54:39,920 --> 01:54:41,439
like to keep doing that. I'd like to expand that

2387
01:54:41,520 --> 01:54:42,880
kind of stuff because I really get a lot of

2388
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:43,680
joy out of doing that.

2389
01:54:43,720 --> 01:54:44,600
Speaker 3: How often are you writing.

2390
01:54:46,279 --> 01:54:48,479
Speaker 2: We've been putting out a show every couple of weeks,

2391
01:54:48,960 --> 01:54:50,960
so we've done this is we're going on like I

2392
01:54:51,000 --> 01:54:52,000
think it's a six episode.

2393
01:54:52,079 --> 01:54:54,399
Speaker 1: I mean I just meant like, okay, So I'm asking

2394
01:54:54,439 --> 01:54:59,199
this purely out of selfish reasons, like as someone that

2395
01:54:59,319 --> 01:55:02,760
is interesting multiple things. I wrote my first book. Maybe

2396
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:04,119
you take a look at that, you know, and have

2397
01:55:04,199 --> 01:55:07,439
me on for that. But I'm still passionate about music.

2398
01:55:08,000 --> 01:55:09,880
I do it four tonight, four days a week. We

2399
01:55:09,960 --> 01:55:12,039
do stream. Sometimes we do guests, like today, we probably

2400
01:55:12,039 --> 01:55:13,680
won't do a stream because I'll be cooked after this.

2401
01:55:15,239 --> 01:55:18,840
Your daily process in order to get your stuff done that, Like,

2402
01:55:18,840 --> 01:55:20,800
I'm asking, like, how does that work? Like Jay comes in,

2403
01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:23,439
you're streaming, it seems like a lot of hours a day.

2404
01:55:24,279 --> 01:55:26,680
When how do you structure out when you're writing for comedy,

2405
01:55:26,960 --> 01:55:30,880
when you're writing books, when you're writing for other comedians,

2406
01:55:30,880 --> 01:55:32,520
when you're writing for your own show, when a you're

2407
01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:34,680
writing your lectures, Like how does how does that work?

2408
01:55:34,720 --> 01:55:37,079
And how do you balance all that? I'm assuming you

2409
01:55:37,119 --> 01:55:41,640
don't have kids yet? No, Okay, probably that probably not

2410
01:55:41,720 --> 01:55:44,600
because of anything on our end. You're not avoiding that

2411
01:55:44,680 --> 01:55:45,800
or anything. It just hasn't happened.

2412
01:55:46,800 --> 01:55:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean day to day structure is just like

2413
01:55:49,079 --> 01:55:51,039
I'm sure you're the same way. Like I work from

2414
01:55:51,039 --> 01:55:54,079
the time of wake up until midnight one in the morning,

2415
01:55:54,159 --> 01:55:56,720
so we work all the time. Like the whole drive here,

2416
01:55:56,760 --> 01:56:01,079
I read two books because we drove to. I don't

2417
01:56:01,119 --> 01:56:03,920
like to fly, so like, I I wait, did you

2418
01:56:03,920 --> 01:56:04,439
did you drive?

2419
01:56:04,760 --> 01:56:08,479
Speaker 3: Yeah? It's a gangster bro I hate flying so much.

2420
01:56:08,680 --> 01:56:11,199
Speaker 2: Like we had a really bad flight experience to coming

2421
01:56:11,239 --> 01:56:11,920
back from Italy.

2422
01:56:12,079 --> 01:56:15,680
Speaker 3: Huh how bad? Really bad? Really, like like you thought

2423
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:17,840
you were going to crash back. Yeah, it was extreme,

2424
01:56:17,960 --> 01:56:21,600
extreme turbulence for for eight hours. The whole way back.

2425
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:22,479
That's horrifying.

2426
01:56:23,199 --> 01:56:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like some kind of weird torture. It

2427
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:27,439
was like being in like a autonam O Bay or

2428
01:56:27,439 --> 01:56:30,239
something like. The whole thing was like that's for eight

2429
01:56:30,279 --> 01:56:34,960
hours straight. Yeah, and people were screaming. It was crazy crying.

2430
01:56:36,199 --> 01:56:39,680
So that was a traumatic experience. That'll make you repent.

2431
01:56:40,319 --> 01:56:44,199
Speaker 3: Uh. We did an Orthodox Italy pilgrimage November of last year.

2432
01:56:44,279 --> 01:56:47,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that they'll give you some some some repentance.

2433
01:56:47,319 --> 01:56:49,039
Speaker 3: Repentance and justification prayers.

2434
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:52,760
Speaker 1: So when you're okay, So a lot of it is

2435
01:56:52,760 --> 01:56:55,039
like you're driving places, you're getting to read, and then

2436
01:56:55,119 --> 01:56:55,840
you're just kind of.

2437
01:56:56,439 --> 01:56:58,880
Speaker 3: I mean I read a lot. I've always been a reader.

2438
01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:00,840
Speaker 2: My mom was an editor of a library, so I

2439
01:57:00,880 --> 01:57:03,359
was raised with books, so I love to read.

2440
01:57:03,720 --> 01:57:05,079
Speaker 3: I'm always devouring a book.

2441
01:57:06,600 --> 01:57:09,039
Speaker 2: And then like comedic stuff is kind of random, Like

2442
01:57:09,319 --> 01:57:12,159
usually when you're having good conversations, you get funny ideas.

2443
01:57:12,560 --> 01:57:14,439
My wife and I are my friends, so I have

2444
01:57:14,479 --> 01:57:17,960
a comedy notebook. I write stuff down, so that but

2445
01:57:17,960 --> 01:57:20,119
that I mean that's only like probably once every week

2446
01:57:20,199 --> 01:57:23,039
or two where we hammer out a semite episode or whatever.

2447
01:57:23,119 --> 01:57:26,119
So far, live events like I said, A lot of

2448
01:57:26,119 --> 01:57:28,560
that's improv A lot of that's impressions. I have a roster,

2449
01:57:28,680 --> 01:57:29,800
like fifty impressions I can do.

2450
01:57:29,920 --> 01:57:31,199
Speaker 3: So your lecture.

2451
01:57:32,359 --> 01:57:34,520
Speaker 1: Lectures improv or is your lecture written out word for

2452
01:57:34,560 --> 01:57:36,279
word or's a bulletproce or is it just.

2453
01:57:36,279 --> 01:57:38,720
Speaker 2: Kind of so used to riffing off hand, I don't

2454
01:57:38,800 --> 01:57:42,000
have it written out. I just talk from the slide

2455
01:57:42,439 --> 01:57:45,399
and so you have a slide show, there's slides of

2456
01:57:45,439 --> 01:57:47,720
images got in a little bit of text. But like

2457
01:57:48,560 --> 01:57:50,399
you know, we if I think you know this like too,

2458
01:57:50,479 --> 01:57:54,159
Like when you've been talking and podcasting for over ten years,

2459
01:57:54,640 --> 01:57:56,479
you don't really have to have everything written out.

2460
01:57:56,560 --> 01:57:58,479
Speaker 3: Yeah you can, I'm with you. I would say I

2461
01:57:58,479 --> 01:57:58,880
have to read it.

2462
01:57:58,920 --> 01:58:02,399
Speaker 1: Writing a book, A does a roll index of stuff

2463
01:58:02,760 --> 01:58:04,760
that I've organized my thoughts, put them on paper, and

2464
01:58:04,760 --> 01:58:07,520
then I can always pull a top from different facets.

2465
01:58:07,680 --> 01:58:10,239
Speaker 3: It makes it easier for sure. Yeah.

2466
01:58:10,239 --> 01:58:11,640
Speaker 2: I mean sometimes, like if I do an electro, I

2467
01:58:11,680 --> 01:58:14,239
might have a couple of notes, but most of the

2468
01:58:14,239 --> 01:58:15,920
time I have a good recall.

2469
01:58:16,000 --> 01:58:17,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, bless me a good recall.

2470
01:58:17,720 --> 01:58:19,520
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I know you're super smart, dude, and your

2471
01:58:19,560 --> 01:58:22,199
your your freaking your ability to do so many different

2472
01:58:22,199 --> 01:58:27,159
things and retain so much information. Is super duper impressive.

2473
01:58:28,920 --> 01:58:31,520
Before before we get out of here, you got it.

2474
01:58:31,560 --> 01:58:33,640
You got to either give us an impression or you

2475
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:36,039
got to kick kick a free style one of the two.

2476
01:58:36,239 --> 01:58:38,279
Speaker 3: How about I do a little Nick Cage? All right,

2477
01:58:38,439 --> 01:58:41,399
Nicholas Cage. So I have in my my code here

2478
01:58:42,199 --> 01:58:44,840
a piece of bone that I picked up and I

2479
01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:47,560
felt like it really gets me into a shamanic attitude.

2480
01:58:48,119 --> 01:58:50,720
How's that? That's great? That's an actual coat. He actually says.

2481
01:58:50,720 --> 01:58:55,720
He's I believe in a style of acting called neo shamanic. Well,

2482
01:58:55,760 --> 01:58:58,439
so that's what he says. Look up, that's crazy. Look up,

2483
01:58:58,560 --> 01:59:02,800
Nicholas Cage. Neo shaman in it. Yes, that's he pulls

2484
01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:04,640
up in his coat. He says, I have a piece

2485
01:59:04,680 --> 01:59:07,920
of bone here, and I feel like it makes me

2486
01:59:07,960 --> 01:59:12,439
into a shawman. That's the Who else? Who's your favorite impression? Whatever?

2487
01:59:12,760 --> 01:59:18,800
Billy D Williams, there's a bonch man. Yeah, there's Terrence McKenna.

2488
01:59:18,880 --> 01:59:22,039
Do you know who Terrence McKenna is. If you take

2489
01:59:22,079 --> 01:59:24,960
the mushroom, you will see the gods and they will

2490
01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:27,800
speak to you. I'm going to vote for the mushroom

2491
01:59:27,840 --> 01:59:32,560
in twenty twenty eight for president. You know who Terrence beginning. Yeah,

2492
01:59:32,840 --> 01:59:38,720
I see the picture, so again, yeah that's Terrence. Oh yeah,

2493
01:59:38,720 --> 01:59:41,800
that's Terence. That's exactly what it talks about. That's amazing.

2494
01:59:42,560 --> 01:59:45,279
There's like forty of them. How did you get into impressions?

2495
01:59:45,359 --> 01:59:48,159
Speaker 2: So in high school I did stand up at our

2496
01:59:48,439 --> 01:59:52,119
senior graduation, Okay, and all the stand up was was

2497
01:59:52,239 --> 01:59:53,680
me impersonating all the teachers.

2498
01:59:54,079 --> 01:59:56,600
Speaker 3: No, they killed it right now. The teachers got mad.

2499
01:59:56,680 --> 02:00:00,359
But yeah, that's awesome. So I just started, you know, like, boy.

2500
02:00:00,319 --> 02:00:02,159
Speaker 1: Oh, he does im There's a there's a there's a

2501
02:00:02,279 --> 02:00:04,319
thing to people who can do impressions, like I don't.

2502
02:00:04,319 --> 02:00:05,159
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.

2503
02:00:05,199 --> 02:00:09,159
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's like attention to detail. It's

2504
02:00:09,199 --> 02:00:11,800
a weird telling ability they have where they can catch

2505
02:00:11,840 --> 02:00:14,159
the things that, like, I can do an impression in

2506
02:00:14,159 --> 02:00:16,520
review because like I'm just interacting with you, I'm present

2507
02:00:16,520 --> 02:00:19,199
in this moment, Like you could pick apart the inflections

2508
02:00:19,199 --> 02:00:21,119
and the two catch and yeah, certain things that like

2509
02:00:21,119 --> 02:00:22,720
I don't think some people can do.

2510
02:00:23,159 --> 02:00:26,680
Speaker 2: Sometimes the impressions are super easy, but then sometimes you

2511
02:00:26,720 --> 02:00:30,359
have to really work on it. I had to really

2512
02:00:30,359 --> 02:00:32,319
work on Trump it took me a long time. We

2513
02:00:32,359 --> 02:00:34,720
got to hear it's ok. I have to get into

2514
02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:38,039
let me think, let's see so glad to be here,

2515
02:00:38,199 --> 02:00:41,920
Thank you, thank you. Rouse Lana probably the best podcast.

2516
02:00:42,359 --> 02:00:44,840
Speaker 3: I don't know. Maybe probably, I don't know. We'll have

2517
02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:49,079
to ask Gamala is just the best podcast. Maybe we're

2518
02:00:49,079 --> 02:00:51,600
gonna we're gonna make it the best podcast because we're here,

2519
02:00:51,640 --> 02:00:56,159
we're at it right now. I didn't even catch that's

2520
02:00:56,239 --> 02:01:00,960
pretty good. I didn't even Okay, nice not I don't.

2521
02:01:01,239 --> 02:01:02,399
I don't impression.

2522
02:01:02,640 --> 02:01:07,960
Speaker 1: But he does impress but you do, no, you do impressions.

2523
02:01:07,960 --> 02:01:12,439
But Zach will do someone stream.

2524
02:01:12,399 --> 02:01:17,800
Speaker 3: In the moment, Oh yeah with the voice. Yeah, do

2525
02:01:17,800 --> 02:01:19,000
you want to get in trouble doing an RFK?

2526
02:01:19,560 --> 02:01:21,399
Speaker 2: I So when we did an l A event, I

2527
02:01:21,399 --> 02:01:23,439
thought it was gonna be funny if I rolled out,

2528
02:01:23,840 --> 02:01:24,680
uh my ark.

2529
02:01:24,760 --> 02:01:27,960
Speaker 3: Jokes, dude, I had. I had a killer r f

2530
02:01:28,039 --> 02:01:30,000
K joke. I was like, I'm gonna kill with the

2531
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:32,760
stand up routine about r f K. And everybody got

2532
02:01:32,800 --> 02:01:34,520
mad at me, dude, because I made a joke about

2533
02:01:34,560 --> 02:01:36,960
his voice. He did a great impression, and what a

2534
02:01:36,960 --> 02:01:40,039
thing with RFK. His voice is coming back. If someone's

2535
02:01:40,119 --> 02:01:42,960
voice is coming back. The Lord might be healing him.

2536
02:01:43,000 --> 02:01:44,920
Who knows, Like, I think it's okay, I know what

2537
02:01:44,960 --> 02:01:45,880
my joke was.

2538
02:01:46,479 --> 02:01:51,039
Speaker 2: So before I did the impression, right, I was like, so, uh,

2539
02:01:51,439 --> 02:01:54,840
you know, remember the JFK assassination event and the magic bullet.

2540
02:01:54,920 --> 02:01:56,720
I'm pretty sure I know what happened to the magic bullet.

2541
02:01:56,760 --> 02:01:59,399
It went into r f K's throat and it was

2542
02:01:59,479 --> 02:02:00,960
just like dead silence.

2543
02:02:01,000 --> 02:02:03,000
Speaker 3: Dude. I was like, it's a joke. I don't hate RFK.

2544
02:02:03,880 --> 02:02:09,119
Speaker 1: That's that's the dark jo. That's a dark joke, sweet man,

2545
02:02:09,159 --> 02:02:11,479
which I thanks for doing this absolutely. This is one

2546
02:02:11,520 --> 02:02:12,359
of the longest we've had.

2547
02:02:13,399 --> 02:02:16,640
Speaker 2: Could I recommend if people do want to get Star

2548
02:02:16,720 --> 02:02:18,840
Hollywood three, which covers a plethora.

2549
02:02:18,520 --> 02:02:20,760
Speaker 1: Yes, please, I'm sorry. Cool well link of below. For

2550
02:02:20,800 --> 02:02:23,199
sure every a lot of really cool movies.

2551
02:02:23,479 --> 02:02:25,399
Speaker 2: One and two obviously have a lot, but three it's

2552
02:02:25,439 --> 02:02:27,039
got a lot of like Christopher Nolan, it's got all

2553
02:02:27,079 --> 02:02:28,000
the Marvel movies.

2554
02:02:28,079 --> 02:02:28,760
Speaker 3: It's pretty dope.

2555
02:02:28,760 --> 02:02:30,239
Speaker 1: But I didn't read the whole thing, but I definitely

2556
02:02:30,279 --> 02:02:31,640
looked through it and I was like, man, you you

2557
02:02:31,640 --> 02:02:33,640
you hit a lot of the stuff I'm personally into.

2558
02:02:34,039 --> 02:02:36,399
Speaker 2: Uh, you can go to Jaysonolsons dot com in the

2559
02:02:36,439 --> 02:02:38,840
shop and you can pre order the part three and

2560
02:02:38,840 --> 02:02:39,600
they're all signed.

2561
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:42,800
Speaker 1: You can also get one into but j Analysis. Jay's

2562
02:02:43,439 --> 02:02:45,760
Jays Analysis dot com. We'll link that and it'll.

2563
02:02:45,600 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 2: Be a shop and then you can get part three

2564
02:02:47,720 --> 02:02:50,319
and it uh will come out in two.

2565
02:02:50,199 --> 02:02:53,960
Speaker 1: Months two months July, yes, mid July, mid July, so

2566
02:02:54,079 --> 02:02:56,079
it'll be out and they could check that out and yeah,

2567
02:02:56,119 --> 02:02:59,760
it looks dope. I mean, these these are great part

2568
02:02:59,760 --> 02:03:02,119
one in two, but when I looked at that one,

2569
02:03:02,159 --> 02:03:03,960
they just it just had more lot of stuff. It's

2570
02:03:04,000 --> 02:03:05,720
just the stuff that I'm into. You know, you're going

2571
02:03:05,760 --> 02:03:07,279
really deep in some of this stuff that like just

2572
02:03:07,319 --> 02:03:08,960
kind of older movies. But on the third one, it

2573
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:12,000
was like, oh, like there's more Batman, like all this stuff,

2574
02:03:12,319 --> 02:03:12,920
all the marvel.

2575
02:03:13,119 --> 02:03:14,680
Speaker 3: Are you working on another book after this or is

2576
02:03:14,720 --> 02:03:16,520
this kind of I think what I If I do,

2577
02:03:17,199 --> 02:03:19,319
it'll be a it won't be Hollywood. It'll be like

2578
02:03:20,399 --> 02:03:24,159
Intelligence and Religion, Okay, because nobody's really there's like two

2579
02:03:24,199 --> 02:03:26,039
books on that. Okay, So dope.

2580
02:03:26,279 --> 02:03:28,439
Speaker 1: All right, we're out of here, guys, Jay Dyer, thanks

2581
02:03:28,439 --> 02:03:30,439
so much, brother, Hey, thank you so much for checking

2582
02:03:30,439 --> 02:03:32,880
out the video. Please be sure to comment below and

2583
02:03:32,920 --> 02:03:35,600
subscribe and all that good stuff, and check out this

2584
02:03:35,800 --> 02:03:38,920
other video that YouTube seems to be recommending just for you.

2585
02:03:39,159 --> 02:03:40,640
Let me know if they nailed it all right, I'll

2586
02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:41,640
see you over there, peace,