Speaker 1: In season nine, episode four, you're refurbishing the Black Widow
and one scene Nub asks is asked to paint over
the OCC logo and replace it with Pjd's new logo,
and they're wondering if you regret that now, you know,
I do?
Speaker 2: You know, at the time, I wasn't, as I don't know,
conscious of historical things, and I was also trying to
distance myself from OCC at the time because we had just,
for all intentsive purposes, broke up. Yeah, and you know,
I was kind of I just got the Black Widow
back and it needed a little freshening, and so I
did change it. And I remember in that episode Nub
said he didn't agree with it, and I was like, dude,
mind your own damn business. And then so I was
like a little annoyed, like whatever, but he was right, Yeah,
he was because now look around, right, I collect all
these historical items going back, some of it one hundred years,
and I just feel like it would have been better
to keep the original, the original everything. Yeah, but it
also came back to me at a time where things
were weird and I only got the one bike back.
My father got the other one. Hundred bikes, right, So
I was trying to not only refurbish it or just
just you know, spruce it up a little bit, but
also kind of just get away from the CC logo
and be like, you know, I'm looking at the fender
right here. It looks great. I just think it would
have been better for what is it? Prosterity? Is that
the right term.
Speaker 1: I feel like at the time you were trying to
obviously distance yourself, but you were also trying to establish yourself.
I mean, we had just it was only maybe a
year or.
Speaker 2: So into right we're building bikes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what do you think At the time, I mean,
I don't know if I had a real opinion about it. It
seemed like a very personal decision to you, you know,
but I could see in hindsight how maybe you would
have liked to have kept it, you know. I mean,
we have the Yankees bike over here that you and
your father built together, and we have both logos on it.
Speaker 2: We do. But this thing's so much better than it
was the first time, in my opinion. I mean, I know,
it was like weird what happened to it? But look
how good it me Now? It's a totally different bike
in a good way. Yeah, so in that case that
needed to be done right, Really, the Black Widow didn't
need to be changed. Now it doesn't really matter because
it's my overall design and I could pretty much do
what I want with it, and it's not like someone
else did it. I did it. Yeah, you know, that's
my Like, if I have one bike that represents me,
it's probably the Black Widow. So I think that I
had a lot of license to do it. But in hindsight,
just for historical sake, I probably at this stage of
my life would have left it alone, but I didn't
really have a sense of that at the time. Yeah,
you know, so I guess the short answer is, yes,
I do regret it, but I'm not losing sleep over it.
I think if I had it to do over again,
i'd keep the way. I'd keep it the way it
was and just maybe freshen it up, maybe a fresh clearcoat,
buffet out, that kind of thing. But that's about it.
So I'm not losing sleep over it. It still looks
spectacular and it's got my logo on it. You know. Again,
timing was a big thing. Then there's so much pressure
going on. There was so many variables. It was a
tough time, and I didn't I was really trying to
make my own way. You know. You got to remember
like all those years of starting the company with my
father creating the OCC logo, and then I'm forced, not
really forced, but I felt like I needed to like
take the very logo I created because it was no
longer mine, off the bike and put the new logo
on to kind of, I think, establish myself more than
anything else, yourself, to represent myself. You know, I wasn't
going to be driving that thing around with the OCC
logo on it when it was no longer you, it
was no longer me, you know. So that's my long
short answer.
Speaker 1: Okay, So another question was was Rachel's family a fan
of the show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, right, Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: I feel like when they aired, definitely, like my mother
would stay up and watch it, like we all watch,
like making sure that everything was.
Speaker 2: Like, oh you mean when we were together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got it, I would assume so.
Speaker 2: Well, so when we did, and I think this is
on the show when we unveiled the New York Jets
bike and we drove it out on the field. Your brother, yes,
your father and your grandfather were at that game, so
they saw us ride out on the field. Yeah, now
that was a long time That was a long time ago.
Speaker 1: That was way before we met.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was way before we met. That was probably well.
Speaker 1: My grandfather, my my father, and my brother all had
season tickets.
Speaker 2: Right, so they were there when we went out on
the field. And I forget what, I forget what bikes,
but I know we had the Jets bike. We were
like unveiling the New York Jets bike. The stadium was
going insane. Yeah, the Jets exhaust kind of faces down
and just from idling parked, it melted a spot in
the turf. They were not happy about that. Yeah, that's
was probably an expensive problem for that.
Speaker 1: I blame that loss on you. Then that day, I'm assuming, yea.
Speaker 2: They always lose, They're the Jets. I know, it's terrible
but true. Uh yeah, so yeah, I think from that perspective.
And then of course once we got together, I'm sure
everybody was more hyper focused on, you know, the show
because it's an interesting thing, you know, and your mom's
always been like a warrior for looking to choke someone.
Speaker 1: Out and have any problems.
Speaker 2: So so yeah, I think, you know, the family definitely
supported it, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, So another question that we had was why did
you go from a long chopper to more of a
shorter wheelbase bike.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say say it was shorter wheelbase. I think
the way you would describe the styles and it is
dramatically different. The chopper, like the Black Widow, is like
a big upstretch and then long forks, you know, the
pro street, which is what I would call the style
in what it is is a lower bike could be
as long, not usually, but like MLB. Yeah yeah, like
MLB is a long bike, but it's like low to
the ground, really curvy. I had really got into that
style heavily when I started building bikes for myself because
I just felt like the lines are so much nicer.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Choppers are specific and they're a little bit I don't
know the Black Widow spectacular, but a lot of choppers
are a little bit much where these pro streets they're
nice and low tank hugs the motor, the long stretched
curvy tank. You know, we were doing the frames like
that real low, like sometimes under stock height, and then
you got that real tight front end with a real
tall tire, and I was doing twenty inch wheels that
are fat. So now the tire heights are getting better
and bigger. So when I started building bikes, the twenty
six inch front wheel was like I used constantly, Yeah,
and that was a perfect size because you could do
a lot with that real estate. And the same thing
with the rear wheel. You know, at twenty inch rear wheels,
like the biggest rear they don't even make that wheel anymore, right,
so they just have an eighteen which basically is the
height of the rim, and the taller of the rim,
the more space, the more you could do with.
Speaker 1: I feel like you started using like a fatter rear
tire as well. Of some of the builds, right.
Speaker 2: We did, we were like two forty two fifty. Actually
it was a twenty two eighty that I used, So
it was bigger than a two forty or two fifty,
which is a lot of Like I think what's on
the Black Widow is like a two forty or two twenty,
and that's just millimeters wide. So it was a twenty
two eighty like the MLB bike's got a twenty two eighty,
and if you look at it the way the seat
drops down, and because that tire is so tall, it
just it adds so much curve to the bike and
it's much more attractive to the eye. And the same
thing would build off too, and you can really see
the difference. Like the Yankees bike looks great, but it's
not as sexy. It doesn't have as much curb appeal
in my opinion, at least the lines of it.
Speaker 1: Right, you know, yeah from a distance overall.
Speaker 2: Look, Yeah, And I just I gravitate towards that in
my head. I just want it to be like slick
and really attractive looking, if that makes any sense. And
I think that's good branding because a lot of people
like that. Look, you know. That's that's that's my short answer,
although I will say I do feel like, I don't know, man,
Choppers I think could make a comeback, and I love Choppers.
And really, if you're going to build like a basic Chopper,
it's a super simple bike. Yeah, and that's kind of
what's fun about it. And there is something unique about
riding a Chopper compared to a pro street It's a
totally different experience, you know. I mean with a Chopper
when that wheels all the way out in front of you.
There's just there's something fun about it. It just feels
like wild West, you know. So, but again aesthetically, if
it's sitting there like MLB, I mean, look at that thing.
If that was a Chopper, it would it wouldn't be
half as good, right.
Speaker 1: I feel like it fits the branding.
Speaker 2: It fits the branding, you know. Now, if you were
to come to me and say, here's what we are
and the Chopper was more in step, especially if you said, oh,
we like the black Widow, Because remember what I'm building
for customers, I'm kind of listening to what they have
to say. So some customers even like we did Sewan
Down's bike, Yes, right upcice right Universal Casualty and Casualty
Insurance Insurance Company. Yes, yes, I should get that right.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Anyways, he liked a certain style that he got a
Chopper and we did that. We did that sides of
the tank with the with the spacers and gave that
real like ghosty look to it. It's pretty killer bike.
So you know, it really has a lot to do
with application too. But like, if I have the choice,
I'm almost always going to go pro street with this
low long look, you know, yeah. Uh, someone said, because
I was looking through the questions like low displacement, like
smaller engine bikes, would you do something with that? And
I would, I would do something with like a smaller
motor or an electric motor.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of like, given the opportunity, like if
that like came across your desk, you know what, I mean,
to do something like that would be a neat project.
Speaker 2: Agreed. Yeah, you're right, Like if if we had an
opportunity to do something like that, or if I had
a choice and a client and I said, well, what
do you think about this? I like the load displacement
because I don't know, it's just a smaller motor, maybe
easier to and do some fun stuff with. It just
changes parameters. But certainly electric is appealing to me, and
I'm very interested in building an electric bike. And what's
good about it is, you know, when you have a
gas engine and that's air cool that has an exhaust
that heats up. Those are all things you have to
contend with from a design standpoint. You have to make
sure it looks good, but it also functions well. With
electric it's like the gloves are off because you're as
long as you could hide those batteries and get that
motor in the right spot. It's you could do anything
you want.
Speaker 1: They make an electric motor that would work for a
bike where it's yeah govern correctly.
Speaker 2: Yeah stuff, it's all out. Yeah. Back when we first,
like I think we dabbled with electric back in the day,
it was very new and it was like there weren't
I think you had to be like a mad scientist
to figure it out.
Speaker 1: Figure it out.
Speaker 2: Yet right now there's so much available, you know, for bicycles,
for motorcycles, and it's really for motorcycles just it's more
about the capacity the batteries for range and distance than
anything else, you know.
Speaker 1: So you would have probably more real estate then because
you don't have as many components or not really because
you would need batteries.
Speaker 2: You would need batteries, so where the engine is would
be pretty much all batteries, right, you know, And then
you got to and then you got to cover or
the tank. You know, you can get real creative with it.
I think, you know, maybe build the frame around the
batteries so you don't have a traditional look. But that's
what's fun about it. It kind of opens up some
doors that you can't do with a combustion engine, you know, creatively,
That's what I like about it. And I was talking
with this company more recently and I have to take
a ride to their shop in Jersey. They build electric cars.
And then we also met that other company in Florida
and they build the electric electric motorcycle. So I could
even see maybe partnering with a company that builds electric motorcycles.
I do the design, and I have ideas like crazy
for a design, and I would even maybe pull some
ideas from some of the my iconic bikes, integrate that inspiration,
I think so, and then man, that's it, and they
work with them because they're the experts in the drive
train and how it all works, right, they already got
that flush.
Speaker 1: I don't have to figure it out from scratch exactly.
Speaker 2: And then maybe even do like a production line of bikes,
not not any massive amount, but maybe limited run or something.
Speaker 1: I feel like electric bicycles have taken off so much.
It's so crazy to see all the kids riding around
on electric bikes now. But no one's pedaling anymore.
Speaker 2: No one's pedaling, man, They just give it there, like
on these little electric bicycle slash motorcycles and they do
like thirty forty miles an hour some of them.
Speaker 1: So when you think twenty and then twenty eight, I
think is what it is, what it can go up
to or something like that, or it's supposed to be
twenty eight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I mean electric bicycles are like taking
over the pedal, yeah, big time. And you know, we
did the electric bikes here during COVID right with that
with the company, and uh that worked out great for us.
It was like a fun time filler at least, you know,
and the bikes look good and we have a couple
of them still. So yeah, I love electric power. I
think it's fantastic. You know, it's no replacement for the
V twin, no rumble down the road, but certainly I
think there's a lot of value there, you know, and
think about it. No admissions, so you know, you could
drive it inside.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking for like an unveil because sometimes
that's like if if you can like ride the bike
in or not, or if all liquids have to be
removed from the bike if you're like inside at like
a convention.
Speaker 2: And they could pipe in the sound now too, and
it's pretty good. It's not cheesy that you can have
all kinds of like, you know.
Speaker 1: Make like you could make the bike like rumble too, probably.
Speaker 2: Probably with a little rattle box in there. Probably why not?
You know, that's the fun part. I don't think. I
think it's a very untouched market, especially in the custom world.
You know, no one's really building custom motorcycles anymore. Very
few people are so in that in that area. There's
not a lot out there, so it'd be fun to
work with it. You know. Someone was asking about my beard.
They were saying, how gray it was? Yes, And you know,
I don't know. Do you like my beard?
Speaker 1: I like your beard?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I never want you to shave it.
Speaker 2: I know you hate when I shave it. No, I
think you think I look weird. I've had this for
how long A while now? Yes, like over a decade.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. Though, your beard was really dark.
I feel like the one time you shaved it when
he grew back, it was gray too.
Speaker 2: Man. Yes, I feel like anytime I shave clean, which
is never, it seems to get grayer. Now they say
that's not true, but I feel like it happened.
Speaker 1: To me, and now I do remember that happening.
Speaker 2: But and now if I grow it out, dude, I'm
looking real gray. Yeah, Like it was salt and pepper
and now it's just salt, very little pepper. Yeah. I
like it. I think it's fun. It's easy.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I used to shave all the time. I used to
have that We're watching the little chin strap with a
little the.
Speaker 1: Whole thing, man, gosh all yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean I don't know what I was thinking. That
was a lot of work. Tried to shave all the time. Yeah,
and then keep that little thing. I did it myself.
I was like a half a razor. I was like
getting in here, you know, I don't know. I guess
I was. I was trying harder back then.
Speaker 1: Huh, you should do one again. No, you're over.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe I'll dye the beard though. So yeah, it
was that commercial Your beard is weird man? Yeah, remember
that for just for men? You know the beard die.
It was a couple of football players. Yeah, basketball player
and a football player. I forget who they were, but anyway, Yeah,
I like the beard. Man. I don't know. It's my
son likes it. Even when I cut cut it too. Sure,
I get looks. What do you Why do you got
to show us your face?
Speaker 1: Dad?
Speaker 2: You win with that bad man? No, Nope.
Speaker 1: Another question that we have is what is your best
advice for someone who's looking to build their own brand.
Speaker 2: I would say start with a good logo.
Speaker 1: I was going to say the same thing, yes.
Speaker 2: Because me and Rachel are very logo conscious. There are
a lot of logos out there. Most of them are
not that good. They really aren't, that's my opinion. I
see logos all the time.
Speaker 1: That's what you really think.
Speaker 2: I will always tell you what I think about your logo.
I did with Nate. I know, so I think it's
very important to start with a very good logo.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you can build from there, kind of
like have that be your nucleus to your brand. Like
if you know what you're doing, you know right your
brand direction.
Speaker 2: We're good at logos.
Speaker 1: We like to do logos because you're.
Speaker 2: Good at like getting them drawn out, and I'm good
at figuring out the ideas in collaboration with your ideas,
and I feel like we come together and come up
with some really good stuff. But most people aren't like that.
And now there's like logo generators, which I'm sure sometimes
they hit the bull's eye.
Speaker 1: But they're not I feel like we've done a lot
of logos for people.
Speaker 2: You know what it is, they're not intelligent enough. They'll
do a logo. Oh that's crafty. But what I think
is important about a logo, and I think you would
agree with this is the second read. When it reads
a second time, that's a.
Speaker 1: More interest clever about it, something that you know, maybe
you don't see it first.
Speaker 2: Yeah. My first logo ever was twenty five years ago,
the OCC logo I never had. I never even thought
about a logo. Yeah, we started that company, named it
Orange County Choppers, and I had the OCC letters and
I did the bike, drew it. I got the original
drawing right on my mother's counter at her house, and
ever since then, I said, oh, you know, this is
something I kind of like. And again it's the letters
in the shape of a motorcycle. And then when it
was time to do my logo, well you came up
with the I think we talked about a crown, and
then you came up with the JR Crown, which is
a really good, strong logo, which is also pretty square.
Like logos that are square are good.
Speaker 1: I feel like the crown is the base, but we
always surround it with something, whether it be the shield
or the.
Speaker 2: Wings or yeah, we usually like this. Yeah, right, the
logo itself could be kind of trapped by other things.
But and I say square, I mean dimensionally similar. So
when you use it in print or T shirts or like,
it's on your hat right now, in my hat, right,
see how it works? It works? Well, it's mine have
the Yeah, yours has the shield around which I like.
I don't really like it by itself. I like it
accompanied with.
Speaker 1: The shield something else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really important because you have to think if
your logo is this long and this high, you can't
use it on anything if there's a lot of words
or you know whatever it.
Speaker 1: See, if you're going to choose one height over with
or with over height, you know, I think it should
be wider than tall, because tall is a little harder
to utilize. Don't you feel like that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I do. I think you're right. Tall is harder
to utilize on everything, paper and all all of it.
But I think it should be kind of more evenly dimensional,
you know. Yeah, and it should be able to stand
alone without verbiage esthetically, not that you not that you
should run it that way, but but you know, you
could run it that way just as a nice design.
I think that's big because you got to think about merch.
You're gonna wear your shirt, Your shirt's gonna have your logo.
I mean, if you're gonna.
Speaker 1: Like represent yourself, yeah with that logo.
Speaker 2: Right, you want to wear your brand, right, And so
I think it should be something that people like like
it when they see it, Like the logo, Like this
logo is very appealing, and it was very versatile. So
that's another thing. That logo could be on anything, car, airplane, toys, whatever.
It's just very versatile. You know. Occ logo is the
same way. So I think versatility in a logo is
important too, especially if you're doing multiple things. And also
the logo should speak to what it is that you
are being an entrepreneur for. So whatever that might be,
then it should kind of wink at you know, if
you're a construction company, if you are a bricklayer, if
you're a you know, a roofer or whatever, you know,
iron worker, it should wink at that. Like I designed
my brother Danny's logo right now. He's got a massive
steel business and he had some company come in and
do like the overhaul, right, Yeah, and then I didn't
really like the logo they did for him, So like
overnight started drawing. I came up with the concept and
by the next day I had his logo and now
it's on everything and it looks fantastic and it's Orange
County Ironworks. So it's O C and then the I
beam in the middle and it's kind of like they're
locked into the IBAM and you know it's an iebeam
because of the web is curved in it, and it's
perfect for him, you know what I mean. So I
would say that to me is like, if you're going
to get into business, then you got to have a
logo first.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we have another question here, what is the
current car collection?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what do we have? Now?
Speaker 1: We have my car, Yeah, I love, which is fifty
five Sunbeam Alpine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, fantastic car, British car. Not a very big engine,
a little four cylinder engine, but super fun to drive. Yeah,
a true topless car like a roadster.
Speaker 1: Well, it has a top.
Speaker 2: But it's considered topless because it's got no windows. Oh okay,
so if you have no roll up windows, it's considered
a roadster. Okay, yeah, that's what your car is. You
have those inserts, but that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have a top, but it's not really
It's there like if you need it, but it's not
really meant to be used. Yeah, it's like an emergency
only type thing. Yeah. That's a great car. What a
great color. You know. I've had a lot of cars
through the years, and that car, I think is one
of my favorite cars to drive. It's simple. People love it.
It's gorgeous, especially out in the sun. It's this powder
blue with like a tan interior. And that that's a
good one. We have the I have the nineteen fourteen
Cadillac Speedster, which is pretty killer, which I should really
bring that here because it would look would look good
the showroom.
Speaker 1: That one's a fun one to ride in because it's opposite.
Driver's side is on the right, so when you're in
the passenger seat and you're going down the road and
cars are was in past you, it's a little sketch.
Speaker 2: It's sketchy for any passenger because you do feel like
you're in the wrong name, going the wrong way, you know.
And then I have the Camaro that we built on
the show. And that thing is like, got like no
miles on it and is fast. I mean, that's a
fast car. You know. We supercharged it and everything, added
all those aluminum plates flat black. That thing's fantastic. And
then we have my first Mercedes. Yeah, two thousand and six.
What is it? It is SL fifty five AMG with
a Rentech kit.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's fast, fast.
Speaker 2: Six hundred and fifty horse you know today's standards like
twelve hundred horses fast. But that car is like it
is a lightning bolt.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Man, it is nice. And that's got the hard top convertible,
which is fun. And it's only got like forty miles
on it, which is nice, you know. And then what else?
I think that's really it. I mean I've had so
many cars through the years, bought and sold.
Speaker 1: What else do we have? I feel like there's more?
Speaker 2: No, No, Because I sold the Woody Wagon. Yeah, just
came like a forty six Woody Wag forty six Woody
Mercury Wagon, which was a pretty cool car, but it
needed a lot of work and I just wasn't getting
to it.
Speaker 1: I know, it just sat for years.
Speaker 2: It has a good home now. Yeah, that's it. But
I've had great cars. I had a sixty sixty seven Mustang.
Speaker 1: Fastbag floating around out there somewhere.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, our thing. We did get a thing, yeah,
the Volkswagen thing. Yeah, yeah, I think that's it. Joe's
the powder Coders. Yeah, so we own a thing, a thing.
We thought that'd be a fun island car. Yeah, but
we really haven't gotten there yet with it.
Speaker 1: Everything's still up in you. We should bring one of
the cars down here.
Speaker 2: We should bring your car, I think, yeah, because then
we could drive it all summer. That would be super fun.
Then I had a four GT I bought brand new
in two thousand and five. That was pretty fantastic. Boy,
I wish I would have kept that car. Yeah, that
one was the heartbreaker, you know. Yeah, that was a
cool car.
Speaker 1: That was.
Speaker 2: And a lot of Hudson's a lot of rare cars.
I've had so many boat tails and everything else, you know.
H Yeah. I used to collect cars like I do
signs now, Oh.
Speaker 1: My gosh, until we ran out of room.
Speaker 2: We ran out of room, and then they were just
like cars are a lot bad.
Speaker 1: They are, especially when you have like a collection of
them and you're not driving them all the time, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know they're old. All the ones I
had were from the thirties, which I just gravitated towards
that Art Deco styling on everything.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: So I didn't have many muscle cars, which are more
modern and easier to take care of. The Thirties cars
are antiquated with you know, sometimes of upkeep.
Speaker 1: For sure, there are a lot of upkeep drive, but
you know.
Speaker 2: They are fun to drive, but they're antiquated, you know,
and they don't go that fast, and they can't get
out of their own way, and they smell like gas,
and the batteries are always dead on them quite often
they're six volt. And then over time, I just I'm glad.
I just collect signs more. I like having a few cars,
but not like that. It's a it's an upkeep, you know,
it's something you always got to keep up with. And
so but I'm always looking at them. I always look
at those thirties cars and see what's out there. And
they've come down in price quite a bit. Yeah, I
just saw a thirty seven gram. It was a four door,
but it's a real rare car. It's supercharged. They're like
thirteen grand for it, and they probably take less. Yeah. Man,
And it's a good looking car and very rare. Yeah,
but you never see them, so you never know. You know,
you've never stood next to one. But they're a handsome car. Yeah,
thirty seven gram supercharged. But that would be better in
like a coop configure it. I don't even know if
they made it in a coup, but if they did,
it'd be better.
Speaker 1: How is it right now?
Speaker 2: It's a four door. Yeah, it's a big four door
with a big bumped out trunk.
Speaker 1: But is that the one that you showed me the
other day?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeap, the blue one. Yeah. I just saw
a Curtis trailer. You know, I know we had that
aluminum trailer here, but I just saw a Curtis nineteen
forty six Curtis trailer, you know, aluminum like air like
an airstream. Oh yeah, and that car was I mean
that that thing's cool and that was cheap too. It's
still available.
Speaker 1: Thirty five a Hudson truck.
Speaker 2: I know, we do.
Speaker 1: We have a six years to find one.
Speaker 2: We did go and look at one. It's like a
whole thing.
Speaker 1: It was