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<v Speaker 1>All right, three two one, Hi, this is William Ramsey.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to William Ramsey Investigates on tonight show. I have

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<v Speaker 1>a very special guest. His name is Gary Mease. He's

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<v Speaker 1>the author of a number of books on the West

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<v Speaker 1>Memphis three, very thorough, first person referenced information on this

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<v Speaker 1>notorious case of the West Memphis three. The titles of

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<v Speaker 1>the two volume version are Blood on Black and Where

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<v Speaker 1>the Monsters Go. They're both available on Amazon. They have

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<v Speaker 1>excellent reviews. But Gary's also been doing a very informative podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>The title of the podcast is The Case Against and

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<v Speaker 1>it's Gary measmeecee and he's currently on podcast number forty nine.

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<v Speaker 1>He's mostly focused on the West Memphis three, going in

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<v Speaker 1>detail and rebutting so many of these false narratives and

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<v Speaker 1>false positions of many of the West Memphis three are

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<v Speaker 1>innocent or Terry Dunnett types. But he's got some great

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<v Speaker 1>titles on there. One is Rough rebuttal Id Comedy, Vera's

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<v Speaker 1>Rough Stuff and The Rough Deception. So we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>go in detail all about that. But Gary, are you there?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I am William.

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<v Speaker 1>Awesome, Well, thanks for agreeing to the interview for people

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<v Speaker 1>who don't know your background or your familiarity with the

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<v Speaker 1>West Memphis West Memphis three. Can you talk a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about yourself and your first person knowledge of the case.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't want to overstate it, but I worked

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<v Speaker 2>at the Memphis Commercial Appeal from two thousand, I mean

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty to two thousand and eight. I did not

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<v Speaker 2>personally cover the case during that time. I'd never try

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<v Speaker 2>to give the suggestion that I did. And I also

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<v Speaker 2>and then from twenty ten to two thousand and fourteen,

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<v Speaker 2>I worked at the West Memphis Evening Times. I was

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<v Speaker 2>the managing editor there from almost all that time, and

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<v Speaker 2>I did cover a number of matters there dealing with

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<v Speaker 2>Damien Echols. There was some litigation going on in twenty thirteen.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm quite familiar with the area. And needless to say,

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<v Speaker 2>I really have a long background in journalist and I

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<v Speaker 2>primarily consider myself to be a print journalist. But I

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<v Speaker 2>am doing some podcasting that sort of thing, gotcha.

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<v Speaker 1>But the Commercial Appeal did some very detailed of many

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<v Speaker 1>many many articles correct on.

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<v Speaker 2>That's correct, William, And in fact, they wrote the original

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<v Speaker 2>book was written by three journalists from the Commercial Appeal,

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<v Speaker 2>not me, but three guys, Bart Sullivan, Mark Periskia, and

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<v Speaker 2>Guy Reel. During the time when all this was going on,

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<v Speaker 2>I was sitting at a desk that was literally probably

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<v Speaker 2>ten feet away from the Metro desk, so I heard

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<v Speaker 2>stuff going on all day long. Guy Reel probably sat

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<v Speaker 2>almost directly across from me, so I had quite a

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<v Speaker 2>few conversations with him, as I recall, and heard many

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<v Speaker 2>conversations with other people about the West Memphis Three during

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<v Speaker 2>that time. It was a big, big case. It still is.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to be talking about Bob Ruff And I

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<v Speaker 2>was rewatching his for the third time, which is kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a slog honestly to get through three times. But

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<v Speaker 2>I was watching again today his ID network shows and

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<v Speaker 2>he describes West Memphis is basically falling into this terrible state.

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<v Speaker 2>He seems to blame it on this crime. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>sure West Memphis is actually worst shape now than it

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<v Speaker 2>was in nineteen ninety three, but it's not because of

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<v Speaker 2>the you know, they are known and they hate the

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<v Speaker 2>idea that they're known for the West Memphis Three and

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<v Speaker 2>basically not known for anything else. But if they're in

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<v Speaker 2>morse shape now, then they were in nineteen ninety three.

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<v Speaker 2>It's arguable they're not. It's not because of the West

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<v Speaker 2>Memphis three case. It's there's there are lots of other

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<v Speaker 2>factors that would play into that.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you recollect the title of the Perisqueia book the

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<v Speaker 1>real book? Because Blood of Innocence, Blood of Innocence, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's very it's almost never referenced by West Memphis

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<v Speaker 1>three supporters like I had to actually go through the

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<v Speaker 1>footwork to find out that it actually existed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's out of print, has been for a long time.

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<v Speaker 2>It was somewhat outdated almost as soon as it appeared,

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<v Speaker 2>because it was really written on the fly. It was

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<v Speaker 2>written while the case was going on, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>put out very quickly. And so all the all the

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that's going on since with the celebrities, the Paradise

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<v Speaker 2>Lost movies, et cetera, et cetera, it simply doesn't touch

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<v Speaker 2>on that and a lot of things we now know

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<v Speaker 2>because we have access to fuller records than they did then.

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<v Speaker 2>They simply didn't have access to at the time, so

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<v Speaker 2>it showed some of It's just an example of how

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<v Speaker 2>journalism has changed with the difference in the Internet, because

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<v Speaker 2>I can tell you I know those guys. Those are

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<v Speaker 2>Sullivan and Peri Ski in particular as a first right reporter,

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<v Speaker 2>journalists all the way around. Good guys gotcha.

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<v Speaker 1>So I mean they did a good job. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>there are some pretty I remember it being kind of

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<v Speaker 1>very lurid in some of the first person accounts, but

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<v Speaker 1>it was also voted down on Amazon. I think there

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<v Speaker 1>were significant a number of people who only give it

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<v Speaker 1>one star as not being like a truthful version, something

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<v Speaker 1>that happened to me as well on Amazon. But the

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<v Speaker 1>you know, kind of getting back to the original, what

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<v Speaker 1>drew you to start the book and can you talk

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<v Speaker 1>about your research? I take it you've obviously looked through

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<v Speaker 1>all of the Callahan materials, except.

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<v Speaker 2>I was working in West Memphis, and I was very

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I was familiar with the case. I remember

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<v Speaker 2>trying to work out all the family relations back in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety three and being very challenged by all that.

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<v Speaker 2>But I was working in West Memphis and I got

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<v Speaker 2>a copy of the letter that Todd Moore Todd and

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<v Speaker 2>Dana Moore and Harry Hobbs had written to the Academy

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<v Speaker 2>of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences complaining about the potential

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<v Speaker 2>nomination of Paradise Loss three for this Oscar nomination, and

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<v Speaker 2>I was reading through there and I suddenly was hit

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<v Speaker 2>very deeply by the idea that these four people had

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<v Speaker 2>really been abused by Hollywood and they did get any

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<v Speaker 2>relief from Hollywood at that point. And the more I

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<v Speaker 2>looked at it, I said, you know, there's only been

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<v Speaker 2>one side of this case that's been told. It really

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<v Speaker 2>deserves and I tried to be as objective as possible,

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<v Speaker 2>but I take, I do take the position that they're guilty,

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<v Speaker 2>and rightly so, just based on the evidence and everything

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<v Speaker 2>I've been seeing up to that point was with the

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<v Speaker 2>possible exception of the first Paradise Lost movie, which is

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<v Speaker 2>somewhat ambiguous, you could draw maybe, I mean I thought

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<v Speaker 2>they I still thought they were guilty after seeing that movie,

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<v Speaker 2>but everything that had been produced since gave the impression

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<v Speaker 2>that they're just terribly wrongfully convicted and this is a

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<v Speaker 2>terrible miscarriage of justice, and some other somebody else did it,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is and this is a continuing thing. This

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<v Speaker 2>is what Ruff is doing now, is he's continue knewing

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<v Speaker 2>this idea that that oh, this is a terrible miscarriage

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<v Speaker 2>of justice. Surely somebody else did it, and we just

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<v Speaker 2>have to get outraged enough and we'll solve this problem rightly.

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<v Speaker 2>I was outraged enough at that time that I took

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<v Speaker 2>it upon myself to begin doing some heavy duty research

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<v Speaker 2>on it. And I was I was busy working at

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<v Speaker 2>the time in a very taxing job and had a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of personal responsibilities and so forth beyond the job.

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<v Speaker 2>So it took me quite a while to get around

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<v Speaker 2>finishing up the book, but I started it very soon

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<v Speaker 2>after that, very soon after reading that letter.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, and that was and I don't think that that

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<v Speaker 1>was the paradise. It was the third one in the series.

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<v Speaker 2>But it never it was the third one yet.

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<v Speaker 1>It didn't receive an award, but it was up against

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<v Speaker 1>and that was kind of one of the confusing things

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<v Speaker 1>for me to look at the case, too, is what

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<v Speaker 1>is this Hollywood involvement and what's going on with this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of thing? And you know, why are they blamed buyers?

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<v Speaker 1>And then Hobbs two and three, he said, there's definitely

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<v Speaker 1>some head scratching going on, at least for me, But

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<v Speaker 1>maybe we can talk about how like I know that

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<v Speaker 1>you and I had talked about rough he has done

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of series where he addressed it. Then he

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<v Speaker 1>went and worked on some case in Texas, and now

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<v Speaker 1>he's come back and he's called it the Forgotten West

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<v Speaker 1>Memphis Three, as if the children are forgotten. And now

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<v Speaker 1>he's kind of readdressing this. And they did this show

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<v Speaker 1>on Oxygen and you've definitely been been addressing that. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you talk a little bit about what your kind of

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<v Speaker 1>initial impressions were?

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Well, you know his conclusion, okay, just grew out

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<v Speaker 2>of his podcast, and the conclusion of his podcast, among

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<v Speaker 2>other things, was that he felt that the West and

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<v Speaker 2>he doubled down on this with Jim Clemeni this weekend,

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<v Speaker 2>that the West Memphis three, all three of them had

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<v Speaker 2>these alibis that were just so good that they couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>possibly have committed the crime, and so therefore it was

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<v Speaker 2>incumbent upon him to go out and seek the real killers. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>none of those alibis hold up. All the ones that

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<v Speaker 2>were presented in court were demolished. The ones that weren't

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<v Speaker 2>presented in court don't hold up either, right, And I

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<v Speaker 2>could go into a long detail about all that as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's do that. Let's look at all three because Eccles

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<v Speaker 1>said he was on the phone. Baldwin's attorney didn't profer

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<v Speaker 1>an alibi, and Miss Kelly said he was at a

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<v Speaker 1>wrestling match. Can you address each one of those in turn?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Eckle said. Eccles at the trial made two albis.

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<v Speaker 2>One he testified he was on the phone, and his

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<v Speaker 2>family testified he was on the phone. He did not

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<v Speaker 2>bring forward the witnesses that would have corroborated his testimony,

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<v Speaker 2>Jennifer Bearden in Hollywood, George and Heather Cliet, who was

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<v Speaker 2>Jason Balin's girlfriend that he claimed he was talking to,

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<v Speaker 2>because none of their statements to police backed up his story.

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<v Speaker 2>They all said they weren't talking to him in this

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<v Speaker 2>crucial time frame. Really, they didn't talk to him from

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<v Speaker 2>about four point thirty or so in the afternoon until

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<v Speaker 2>at least nine to twenty at night, impossibly much later.

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<v Speaker 2>And they tried to call him at home and he

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't at home, which means that you know, he wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>at home. His grandmother said, he's not at home. Now

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<v Speaker 2>he had this other family visit that he supposedly went on.

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<v Speaker 2>And it turns out that the time stamp that was

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<v Speaker 2>used for that, most prominently was the little girl said

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<v Speaker 2>that her boyfriend had a concert within that same week,

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<v Speaker 2>and it turns out it was two weeks later and

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<v Speaker 2>cast doubt on that. The missus Gelli trial. He had

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<v Speaker 2>two alibis attempt at Albis. One was a series of

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<v Speaker 2>police calls involving a slapping incident of this child. He

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<v Speaker 2>was supposedly at the scene of the police calls. The

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<v Speaker 2>problem is is the police who knew him. Three different

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<v Speaker 2>police officers testified said he wasn't on the scene so

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<v Speaker 2>much for that alibi wrestling, he had a long list

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<v Speaker 2>of people. He really had over a dozen people he

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<v Speaker 2>had testified for alibis. He had a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>testifying in the wrestling match. The problem is is when

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<v Speaker 2>they brought forward, oh yeah, we went May fifth, nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety three, when we went to Dias, Arkansas to this

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<v Speaker 2>old theater and did this wrestling match. The police went

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<v Speaker 2>and checked with the owner of the wrestling of the

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<v Speaker 2>theater and it turns out that receipt that they camed

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<v Speaker 2>for a needed sign to use the theater for the

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<v Speaker 2>night they were using the wrestling uh they were going

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<v Speaker 2>to have the wrestling match was dated the week before

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<v Speaker 2>and not the date that they were claiming who it

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<v Speaker 2>cast down on the wrestling match.

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<v Speaker 1>Right and then yeah, sorry Jason.

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<v Speaker 2>And then Jason Baldwin has claimed he didn't offer an

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<v Speaker 2>alibiic trial. He since claimed he was talking on the

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<v Speaker 2>phone to girls. The same girls. It's actually say they

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<v Speaker 2>don't didn't talk to Jason that evening at all. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the same three girls. And he also claimed, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he he played I went to Walmart with Ken Watkins,

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<v Speaker 2>who gave actually his friend, little friend Ken Watkins, who

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<v Speaker 2>actually gave a statement to police that Wren totally experience

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<v Speaker 2>with everybody else, including Jason Baldwin, and gave another statement

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<v Speaker 2>to police that Damien Echols had actually confessed to him

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<v Speaker 2>and uh and then passed and then failed a polygraph

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<v Speaker 2>who's a double negative polygraph. He denied that the story

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<v Speaker 2>he was telling was true, which meant it was true

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<v Speaker 2>and so he would have been a great witness for

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<v Speaker 2>Jason on the stand, and otherwise he really didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>an alibi. He just makes a claim that he does well.

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<v Speaker 1>He's actually after his conviction. I think since he's been out,

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<v Speaker 1>he's made to claim that there was the Asian kid.

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<v Speaker 1>I think his name was Dan nam Or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Don nahm Right, don Nam was supposedly at the at

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<v Speaker 2>the Walmart as well. Don namb gave a statement to

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<v Speaker 2>police and said he'd seen Damien Dominique Tier, who was

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<v Speaker 2>Damien Eckles's pregnant girlfriend at that time, in Jason Baldwin

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<v Speaker 2>that afternoon, and then he promptly retracted that statement, said

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<v Speaker 2>he was mistaken, it was a different day.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And that's in the court files, like there's actually

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<v Speaker 1>a written station by them saying he was wrong. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's remarkable that that the Baldwin is using that as

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<v Speaker 1>an excuse when it's directly contradicted in writing in a

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<v Speaker 1>police statement.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. Well, what's what's even more remarkable is Damien Echles

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<v Speaker 2>particularly mentioning these girls, and they gave they continue to

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<v Speaker 2>give the States and Rule thirty seven hearings and so forth.

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<v Speaker 2>I think Jennifer Beard has given at least three statements

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<v Speaker 2>after the convictions. Uh, and she doesn't really change her

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<v Speaker 2>story in substance, and it does not give Damien Eckles

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<v Speaker 2>an alibi.

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<v Speaker 1>So so so Ruff is saying there's these ironclad alibis

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<v Speaker 1>that are contradicted by the court record than statements in

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<v Speaker 1>court that were that were overturned. But it gets even

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<v Speaker 1>worse than that. I mean, what other glaring problems are

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<v Speaker 1>in these rough podcasts or the shows.

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<v Speaker 2>Many other there are many other problems. The big the

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<v Speaker 2>big problem is is he's basing his whole investigation now

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<v Speaker 2>on He says he's not interested in getting new statements,

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<v Speaker 2>new witnesses. He is banking everything on forcing the prosecuting attorney,

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<v Speaker 2>Scott Ellington, to turn over evidence to be retested for DNA.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem with this is the problems are manifold with this.

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<v Speaker 2>Number one, Bob Ruff has no standing to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Number two. The only people who might have standing to

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<v Speaker 2>do it theoretically are the three killers. And they signed

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<v Speaker 2>an agreement in twenty eleven there and with their Alfred

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<v Speaker 2>Plea that all these leagues actions are over with, And

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<v Speaker 2>it could be argued that they might actually abrogate their

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<v Speaker 2>legal agreement for their release if they file additional legal

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<v Speaker 2>actions on this right.

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<v Speaker 1>So they're still under probation. If they filed additional legal

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<v Speaker 1>actions that go against the agreement they signed with the

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<v Speaker 1>best attorneys possible, they'll go back to jail.

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<v Speaker 2>They could. I mean, you know, and you don't know

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<v Speaker 2>what's going to happen when you go to court. So

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<v Speaker 2>it depends on what mood the courts and right, right

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<v Speaker 2>and and so. But in theory, they could do that.

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<v Speaker 2>The theory, the theory, there's the theory. In theory they

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<v Speaker 2>could have done that anytime in the last nine years.

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<v Speaker 2>They haven't done it. The only one I could really

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<v Speaker 2>see it potentially doing it Eccles doesn't want to be

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<v Speaker 2>bothered with it because he thinks he's got more important

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<v Speaker 2>things to do. Miss Galley really just doesn't want to

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<v Speaker 2>be bothered with any of it. Jason Baldwin would make sense.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the only one who might be willing to do that,

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<v Speaker 2>but he had the opportunity to do that for the

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<v Speaker 2>last nine years. Another big problem with this is this

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<v Speaker 2>is redundant. They went through years and years of legal

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<v Speaker 2>actions to enable them to get access to a list

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<v Speaker 2>of items for new DNA testing, and well all the

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<v Speaker 2>way back really at the turn of the century, and

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<v Speaker 2>then it went up to and they finally, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they kindly got approval of that, and then it went

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<v Speaker 2>through a long many more a much longer process. In

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eleven, they were coming up we know they had

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<v Speaker 2>basically nothing on a lot of the DNA as of

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<v Speaker 2>July because Moreoverett wrote a story about their attorneys meeting

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<v Speaker 2>their attorney, Patrick Bankott, one of their attorneys, Patrick Banker,

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<v Speaker 2>meeting with Dustin Daniel, who was the Attorney General of

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<v Speaker 2>the State of Arkansas, and Binker's telling Justin McDaniel, they're

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<v Speaker 2>coming up empty empty on the DNA, so that you

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<v Speaker 2>know their evidence. You're hearing was going to be based

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<v Speaker 2>on the chance of retrial was going to be based

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<v Speaker 2>on potentially two major issues. One one would be new evidence,

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<v Speaker 2>specifically DNA evidence evidence, and the other would be uh

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<v Speaker 2>jury jury misconduct, but only for eccles In Baldwin. Miss

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<v Speaker 2>Kelley would not be able to claim any kind of

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<v Speaker 2>relief for jury misconduct in eccles In Balwin's trial. So

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<v Speaker 2>if there was no new DNA evidence or other new evidence,

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<v Speaker 2>then he had no basis for going seeking a new

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<v Speaker 2>trial whatsoever. Right So of course, so of course Miss

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<v Speaker 2>Kelley would have wanted to get taken the Alfred Cleave.

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<v Speaker 1>And that was and there was like the hearing was December, right,

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<v Speaker 1>they were let out in August, yes, so there was

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<v Speaker 1>an upcoming hearing. They had spent all this time there

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<v Speaker 1>was a statute that was passed in Arkansas that allowed

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<v Speaker 1>for the opening of a trial if there was new,

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<v Speaker 1>incriminating or evidence that would tend to get somebody off

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<v Speaker 1>the thing. And that's really what the lever that they

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<v Speaker 1>focused on in the appeals process to get back to

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<v Speaker 1>that point in twenty eleven, right right.

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<v Speaker 2>It was particularly DNA evidence. But the thing is is

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<v Speaker 2>they had they had the opportunity granted to them to

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<v Speaker 2>test new DNA evidence. They had the new DNA evidence tested,

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<v Speaker 2>but guess what, Nobody knows what the results are except

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<v Speaker 2>for like an allusion to the results in a more

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<v Speaker 2>Leverett story, they nobody knows what those results actually are.

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<v Speaker 2>The defendants have the defendant the killers haven't released it

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<v Speaker 2>to the public. Bob Buff skirts around the issue of

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<v Speaker 2>even asking for what those results might be, and you

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<v Speaker 2>would think they might have, you know, if they do

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<v Speaker 2>nothing but just show well, there's no there was no

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<v Speaker 2>sign of the Westminster three in any of this DNA evidence,

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<v Speaker 2>but we don't. We can't find anybody else either. It

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<v Speaker 2>would show something, but so far we have seen nothing

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<v Speaker 2>on that front four and nine years now, and the

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<v Speaker 2>court is not going to look kindly on that.

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<v Speaker 1>I would think, yeah, and they I mean, but they

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<v Speaker 1>say they're more than willing to have this pr approach

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<v Speaker 1>that they found a care that is Terry Hobbs. They

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<v Speaker 1>claim to initially consistent, but they don't mind that that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of bleeding over into we found Terry Hobbs here

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<v Speaker 1>on the scene, and then therefore that conclusively proves he

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<v Speaker 1>did it, which is really a stretch.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a huge stretch. And because it's micochondrial DNA, it's

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<v Speaker 2>only consistent with a small percent it's consistent with a

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<v Speaker 2>small percentage of people in the world, but it's still

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<v Speaker 2>millions of people any way you cut it. And even

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<v Speaker 2>if you cut it down to just who was in

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<v Speaker 2>West Memphis at the time, we're still talking about hundreds

347
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<v Speaker 2>of people in West Memphis who would be a match

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<v Speaker 2>for the michondrial DNA. And that's probably not even understating it.

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<v Speaker 2>With you know, pop with the population being you know

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<v Speaker 2>that some common ancestors, you know, ancestry in certain areas.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm not trying to get into cousin marrying

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<v Speaker 2>in Arkansas or anything, but it's just the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>the gene pool gets smaller and smaller. These smaller backward areas,

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<v Speaker 2>so there would be more matches rather than few as

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<v Speaker 2>compared to say general population over the United States at

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<v Speaker 2>all overall, so it doesn't prove that it's Terry Hobbs there.

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<v Speaker 2>They also drag David Jacobi, who was Terry Hobbins's alibi witness,

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<v Speaker 2>into this, and he had a hair that was found

359
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<v Speaker 2>at the scene with a similar sort of mitochondrial DNA match,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was really crucified in the West of Memphis movie,

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<v Speaker 2>which was produced by one of the killers, Damien Eccles.

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<v Speaker 2>He's one of the producers obviously not the one. And

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<v Speaker 2>uh and but you know, not exactly an objective source.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the question becomes for at this point without

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<v Speaker 2>if if for Bob Ruff to pull this to get

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<v Speaker 2>his audience. I mean, he's you know, he's got tears

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<v Speaker 2>in his eyes. Yeah. Three, he's all but screaming, not

368
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<v Speaker 2>not on the phone, but you know, away from the phone.

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<v Speaker 2>He's all but screaming at Scott Ellington for not returning

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<v Speaker 2>his phone calls and so forth. Number One, Scott Ellington

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<v Speaker 2>just got elected judge. He takes office in January. We're

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<v Speaker 2>having a corona. We're having We're having a corona virus shutdown.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now, everything's less than it usually is. And on

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<v Speaker 2>top of that, two weeks ago, Jonesborough, which is where

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<v Speaker 2>Scott Ellington lives and where his offices are, was hit

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<v Speaker 2>by a devastating tornado. So Scott Scott Ellington has bigger

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<v Speaker 2>problems than some boob podcast or from Poonantville. He shut

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<v Speaker 2>it up there and demands to see evidence he's not entitled.

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<v Speaker 1>To see, right, with really no credentials. He's just a

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<v Speaker 1>self described investigator. I think he was a fire investigator

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<v Speaker 1>or self claimed But yeah, it's very interesting. And I

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<v Speaker 1>saw him crying at the beginning, and it was really

383
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<v Speaker 1>just an appeal to emotion. It wasn't sensible, and uh

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<v Speaker 1>it was you know, I just knew that it was

385
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<v Speaker 1>going to be the start of something grim, that this

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<v Speaker 1>this is the way it started.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh well, no, a lot of it, A lot of

388
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<v Speaker 2>it's very I found it. I found it more humorous

389
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<v Speaker 2>the first time I saw it, because it was so

390
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:21.000
<v Speaker 2>bumbling in and eft. But his you know, he he

391
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<v Speaker 2>has this whole thing about he's going to do what

392
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:27.599
<v Speaker 2>he calls the victimology. I have nothing against with this

393
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<v Speaker 2>in theory, but The idea is, you look at the

394
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.000
<v Speaker 2>behavior of the boys leading up to the killings, and

395
00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:36.759
<v Speaker 2>this will give us some insight into why these boys

396
00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:40.480
<v Speaker 2>are dead. Well, it's going to give very limited insight

397
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:45.000
<v Speaker 2>into that, because everything that happened to get them into

398
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<v Speaker 2>the woods at six point thirty at night that particular

399
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:51.880
<v Speaker 2>day had very little to do with what happened when

400
00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:55.400
<v Speaker 2>they got to the woods. The you know, this is

401
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:59.279
<v Speaker 2>not about who they talked to that afternoon, or he

402
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:04.319
<v Speaker 2>makes a big deal, he contradicts even what's on the record.

403
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:06.839
<v Speaker 2>But you know, he brings up a new guy. He

404
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.519
<v Speaker 2>says he was the last one to see them going

405
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<v Speaker 2>into the woods. Well, who I mean, honestly, who cares?

406
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<v Speaker 2>Who cares? They were seen going into the woods about

407
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<v Speaker 2>six thirty? Who cares? Who was the last one to

408
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<v Speaker 2>see that? He brings up the so called fourth boy

409
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<v Speaker 2>who supposedly went into the woods with him. That he

410
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<v Speaker 2>brings up this poor George Taylor fellow, who seemed very confused.

411
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<v Speaker 2>And this went on for agonizing men in after a

412
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<v Speaker 2>minute with rough plane to the cameras, acting like he's

413
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<v Speaker 2>a big investigator, pushing this guy around. And it turns

414
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<v Speaker 2>out and the executive producer or whoever was on the

415
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:49.720
<v Speaker 2>scene with him. They basically saying, you know, that's enough,

416
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<v Speaker 2>let's stop this. You on and on and on.

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<v Speaker 1>Bag he followed down that trail. But it turns out

418
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<v Speaker 1>that guy was either lying here he couldn't have been

419
00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:00.519
<v Speaker 1>the fourth person. So why did you clear that in

420
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:02.000
<v Speaker 1>the show? Is it incredible?

421
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:04.119
<v Speaker 2>Right? Right? Why put that in the show? It's a

422
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.480
<v Speaker 2>big It was speaking of red Herring's going to use

423
00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:10.359
<v Speaker 2>that tournament's a big red hearing. He is. His idea

424
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:14.079
<v Speaker 2>of a red hearing was bow Jangles, Mister bo Jangles,

425
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:20.599
<v Speaker 2>who supposedly was at a what was the name that's

426
00:27:20.599 --> 00:27:23.599
<v Speaker 2>been given to this guy who went into this fried

427
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:27.559
<v Speaker 2>chicken place that night, had blood on him, had mud,

428
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:31.119
<v Speaker 2>went into the ladies restroom, acted deranged, and you know

429
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:32.759
<v Speaker 2>he's a mile a mile and a half or so

430
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:37.440
<v Speaker 2>from the crime scene, and it's an hour or so later. Well,

431
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:39.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, he went to a lot of trouble to

432
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.880
<v Speaker 2>prove Oh yeah, if he ran down this muddy ditch

433
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.039
<v Speaker 2>and in late evening or night, yeah, he could have

434
00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:51.559
<v Speaker 2>gotten there in time. Well what's and then he concludes,

435
00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:53.720
<v Speaker 2>but he couldn't have done it anyway, So he went

436
00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:57.240
<v Speaker 2>all this big demonstration to show mister bo Jangles could

437
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.240
<v Speaker 2>show up at the restaurant just to go, well, take

438
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:02.519
<v Speaker 2>any difference because he didn't have anything to do with

439
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:06.279
<v Speaker 2>it anyway. I concur with his opinion on that. But

440
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:09.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, it was all a big show. He makes

441
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.039
<v Speaker 2>a big show out of not being able to contact

442
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Jesse mus Kelly Junior only had Apparently all he had

443
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:17.519
<v Speaker 2>to do was just do some realm like basic research

444
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.319
<v Speaker 2>and hunting. You know, he's going to hunt him down

445
00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:22.359
<v Speaker 2>a little bit. But it wasn't as if it was

446
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:25.359
<v Speaker 2>going to take Charlotte Colms to figure that out. And

447
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.519
<v Speaker 2>in fact we see it's really that hard. He just

448
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:30.480
<v Speaker 2>didn't put that much work into it. And then he

449
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.240
<v Speaker 2>puts in all these phone calls to Ellington and he's

450
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.880
<v Speaker 2>continually getting mad about Ellington not being on the phone,

451
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:42.119
<v Speaker 2>to the point his producer says, you know, he's a producer.

452
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:45.799
<v Speaker 2>Starting to have problems with the attitude, so you know,

453
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:50.440
<v Speaker 2>but that's his personality. His personality has a great deal

454
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.960
<v Speaker 2>to do with it rubs me the wrong way. It

455
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:55.559
<v Speaker 2>has a great deal to do with the show. But

456
00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:58.519
<v Speaker 2>the fact is is, when I say there's a deception

457
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:01.759
<v Speaker 2>going on there. The deception is that he thinks he's

458
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:04.160
<v Speaker 2>going to be able to do something about this case.

459
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:06.319
<v Speaker 2>I don't think he actually thinks that. I don't think

460
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:10.480
<v Speaker 2>he's that stupid. I think he wants to deceive his

461
00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:15.640
<v Speaker 2>audience and get them outraged and up all round up

462
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:19.880
<v Speaker 2>bother Scott Allington, and he's hoping that maybe the State

463
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.680
<v Speaker 2>of Arkansas blink and actually hand over the evidence. But

464
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:25.640
<v Speaker 2>they're not going to do that, and then this case

465
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:27.319
<v Speaker 2>is going to go away again.

466
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:31.160
<v Speaker 1>Hey man. He calls his like listeners the bob Ruff Army.

467
00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:34.440
<v Speaker 1>So like these guys, he's like deliberately like just like

468
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.559
<v Speaker 1>you said, he's deliberately kind of riling them up and

469
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:40.960
<v Speaker 1>trying to get him involved in like it's a crowdsourced investigation,

470
00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:45.079
<v Speaker 1>which is terrifying. I mean now, I mean if you

471
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:47.599
<v Speaker 1>go like his first case, which was ad Nan Saied,

472
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:52.000
<v Speaker 1>like that was conclusively you know, put down on appeal.

473
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:56.039
<v Speaker 1>The highest court in Maryland basically said hey, this is

474
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:59.039
<v Speaker 1>a guilty thing, and it just went away. There's nothing

475
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:01.839
<v Speaker 1>that stuff. So this won't be the first time.

476
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:09.319
<v Speaker 2>Apparently Rough in that particular season, apparently Rough did what

477
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.400
<v Speaker 2>he does, which is he went out of his way

478
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:17.400
<v Speaker 2>to make uh High's boyfriend at the time. Don I

479
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:20.000
<v Speaker 2>think that the guy's name, I'm not. I mean, I don't.

480
00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:23.599
<v Speaker 2>I know the case a little bit, but don uh

481
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:25.720
<v Speaker 2>Rough went out of the way to make him look

482
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.720
<v Speaker 2>without specifically accusing, and make him look like he's the

483
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:33.119
<v Speaker 2>one who actually committed the crime. And it turned and

484
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:36.319
<v Speaker 2>it was all based on some sort of time stamp

485
00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:40.599
<v Speaker 2>at a some sort of photo.

486
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:42.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was like a glass place, right. It wasn't

487
00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:44.440
<v Speaker 1>a glassware place right.

488
00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:47.559
<v Speaker 2>Right, No, I think it was a It was a

489
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.440
<v Speaker 2>photo photo. I can't remember the name. There was a

490
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:53.079
<v Speaker 2>big chain. I just can't the name right now. I

491
00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:56.559
<v Speaker 2>don't follow him. I don't listen to his podcast. I

492
00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.079
<v Speaker 2>haven't listened to his podcast than was smsis three. But

493
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:02.720
<v Speaker 2>so he has a history of doing this. He has

494
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:07.680
<v Speaker 2>a history of really uh he talked talked to Terry Hobbs.

495
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:09.599
<v Speaker 2>We know he talked to Terry Hobbs. It's supposed to

496
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:13.799
<v Speaker 2>be an author record interview, and then he talks about

497
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:18.079
<v Speaker 2>what was said at the off the record interview, which

498
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:26.319
<v Speaker 2>just unethical. He doesn't care. He brings in a child

499
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:29.559
<v Speaker 2>of two of the parents who's having some sort of

500
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:32.680
<v Speaker 2>dispute with her parents about something has nothing to do

501
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:37.279
<v Speaker 2>with the Westminphis three except that they're related to the victim,

502
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:40.720
<v Speaker 2>and has a big interview with her and just basically

503
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.440
<v Speaker 2>smears people. He smears people, and because you know, he

504
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:50.640
<v Speaker 2>gets and then he attacks the police, the prosecutors, the judges,

505
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:54.079
<v Speaker 2>and he keeps saying how they're corrupt. He keeps saying

506
00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:57.200
<v Speaker 2>there hasn't been a real investigation up to now, which

507
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:01.680
<v Speaker 2>is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It was

508
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:06.400
<v Speaker 2>a police investigation, police invested investigation. They had a really

509
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:10.720
<v Speaker 2>good I don't I mean the guy been cut all

510
00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:13.720
<v Speaker 2>sorts of corners. Ron Lax was in there very early

511
00:32:13.799 --> 00:32:17.599
<v Speaker 2>on for the defense as a private investigator. He did

512
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:19.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of stuff. I don't think he was doing

513
00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:21.759
<v Speaker 2>the right thing, but he was being an advocate for

514
00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the defense very early on. And of course after the

515
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:31.200
<v Speaker 2>movies came out, they had this huge, huge amount of

516
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:35.839
<v Speaker 2>money available to them, and they've had all sorts of investigators, attorneys,

517
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:39.000
<v Speaker 2>experts available to them for years and years and years,

518
00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:46.400
<v Speaker 2>and yet all these questions persist because the questions ultimately

519
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:51.799
<v Speaker 2>aren't answerable by anything except they're guilty. So We're going

520
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.640
<v Speaker 2>to keep bringing this up again. We're gonna bring this

521
00:32:54.759 --> 00:33:00.599
<v Speaker 2>up again. Let's cast doubt on eyewitness statements, less cats

522
00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:04.319
<v Speaker 2>doubt on this witness. For that reason, that business Jesse

523
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:11.039
<v Speaker 2>Muskelly can confess ten times, that's one way to count it,

524
00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:14.720
<v Speaker 2>or five times is another. Like he's really officially got

525
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:18.480
<v Speaker 2>five different confessions, which means he goes to an appeals court.

526
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.599
<v Speaker 2>What's the appeals court gonna do. They're gonna look at

527
00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:23.839
<v Speaker 2>this guy's fast five times and say, oh, yeah, you

528
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:24.839
<v Speaker 2>deserve another trial.

529
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:28.839
<v Speaker 1>Guy, right, Well, you know the thing is they never

530
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:31.599
<v Speaker 1>mentioned this gary is that it had did go The

531
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:34.119
<v Speaker 1>case went to the Supreme Court of Arkansas and they

532
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:37.279
<v Speaker 1>affirmed the lower court. So that's already happened. That that

533
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.880
<v Speaker 1>appeal not on the DNA, but just a standard appeal

534
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:42.680
<v Speaker 1>was looked at by another court.

535
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:47.759
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, the durn The lower court did turn them

536
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:52.200
<v Speaker 2>down on the DNA, but the Supreme court did back

537
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:57.759
<v Speaker 2>to approve that. But the lower court, you know, of

538
00:33:57.759 --> 00:33:59.759
<v Speaker 2>course it was appealed. It was a death penalty case,

539
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:04.079
<v Speaker 2>went went to the Supreme court. There the Supreme Supreme

540
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.319
<v Speaker 2>Court didn't have any problem with it. That you know,

541
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:14.400
<v Speaker 2>there's been no, uh, you know, major ethical uh probes of.

542
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:16.719
<v Speaker 1>The great point excellent points, Yeah.

543
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:21.280
<v Speaker 2>Are the are the police? The police made mistakes with this.

544
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:23.960
<v Speaker 2>I have yet to read an account of a major

545
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:28.719
<v Speaker 2>police investigation of a big, really you know crime that's

546
00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:31.400
<v Speaker 2>really sort of way out of the out of the loop,

547
00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:35.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, like a Manson murderer or a son of

548
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:38.559
<v Speaker 2>Sam or whatever, you want, something that's so far out.

549
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:41.360
<v Speaker 2>And this is one of those cases where the police

550
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:45.079
<v Speaker 2>didn't make major mistakes, but ultimately, because they kept doing

551
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:50.239
<v Speaker 2>their jobs, they honed in on who the perpetrator was.

552
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.639
<v Speaker 2>It just took them a while. And that's what happened here.

553
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.000
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't a matter of picking Damien Epicles out immediately

554
00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:58.920
<v Speaker 2>because he was wearing a black T shirt.

555
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:03.440
<v Speaker 1>Right, that's the old argument, the laser focused or the

556
00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:07.199
<v Speaker 1>Damien echles what do they call it, the zone or whatever.

557
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.199
<v Speaker 1>But it took him a month to actually arrest him,

558
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.360
<v Speaker 1>right June, May fifth to June third, right.

559
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:18.840
<v Speaker 2>May fifth, June third. By June ninth or ten, they

560
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:22.599
<v Speaker 2>already had him pegged as a really their best suspect

561
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:27.159
<v Speaker 2>because number one, he had been seen, he had we

562
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:30.000
<v Speaker 2>had eyewitnesses who'd seen him walking away from the scene

563
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.239
<v Speaker 2>of the crime. He gave some really really bad answers,

564
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:39.199
<v Speaker 2>really suspicious answers to an FBI questions off an FBI checklist.

565
00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:47.039
<v Speaker 2>He kept changing his his alibis. Even early on, he

566
00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:51.719
<v Speaker 2>was changing his alibi times. He failed a polygraph. Then

567
00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:55.360
<v Speaker 2>he refused, He threw up, he refused to continue talking

568
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:56.440
<v Speaker 2>to He.

569
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:59.480
<v Speaker 1>Said, let me, He told the cops, let me talk

570
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:01.440
<v Speaker 1>to my mom and then I'll tell you everything. And then

571
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:02.440
<v Speaker 1>he talked to his mom and.

572
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:09.079
<v Speaker 2>Cleaned up right. So, very early on they had good

573
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:13.000
<v Speaker 2>reason to suspect him. With a polygraph, an eyewitness sighting,

574
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and a two disastrous interviews with police, they already had

575
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:22.800
<v Speaker 2>good reason to suspect him. They were waiting for more evidence.

576
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:27.079
<v Speaker 2>They continued looking at other people. There were dozens of

577
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:29.199
<v Speaker 2>people that were polygraphed that had nothing to do with

578
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Damien Eccles, even Marl Leverett, even I think it's in

579
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:38.639
<v Speaker 2>you know. The ID network also did a horrible version

580
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:40.440
<v Speaker 2>of this. Maybe it was an the ID Network where

581
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:44.719
<v Speaker 2>she talks about all the other people that were looked

582
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:48.880
<v Speaker 2>at as potential suspects. She does get some things right,

583
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:51.679
<v Speaker 2>she doesn't get much right. She does It's not that

584
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:55.360
<v Speaker 2>she doesn't get things right, but she deliberately leaves things

585
00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:59.039
<v Speaker 2>out and slants things to make it look like the

586
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:03.440
<v Speaker 2>West Memphis three. He couldn't possibly have committed these crimes

587
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:07.760
<v Speaker 2>in which, you know, if you slant the evidence enough, yeah,

588
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.679
<v Speaker 2>they look innocent. It's the same old story with the

589
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.199
<v Speaker 2>Paradise Lost movies. Right.

590
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Just something I'd like to touch on is can you

591
00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:21.920
<v Speaker 1>talk about Bob Russ's animal predation theories and why there's

592
00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:22.920
<v Speaker 1>real problems there?

593
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:30.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, Number one, it's not based on it's not really

594
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:35.159
<v Speaker 2>based The idea is that he's claiming that all the

595
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:40.400
<v Speaker 2>wounds were caused except for some wounds to the head

596
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:45.559
<v Speaker 2>were caused by animals. Uh, there's been some medical experts

597
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:49.400
<v Speaker 2>for the defense. He said basically the same thing Warner

598
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Spitz claimed for his story to make any sense. Warner Spitz,

599
00:37:54.800 --> 00:38:01.679
<v Speaker 2>who was a very well known forensic forensic pathologists, literally

600
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:08.159
<v Speaker 2>wrote a book on it. He claimed that his theory

601
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:11.719
<v Speaker 2>was that large dogs somehow dragged the bodies out of

602
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:16.800
<v Speaker 2>the ditch after death, slammed their heads against trees, and

603
00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:19.119
<v Speaker 2>then put somehow they ended up back in the water.

604
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:21.360
<v Speaker 2>That is the scenario that would have had to have

605
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:26.400
<v Speaker 2>happened with doctor spits. There's some other people who aren't

606
00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:30.320
<v Speaker 2>quite that outrageous. But the idea is is that turtles

607
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:36.639
<v Speaker 2>would have eaten the would have caused these kind of wounds.

608
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.519
<v Speaker 2>Rough a lot basing a lot of what he's doing

609
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:45.679
<v Speaker 2>on his experiment in which he dropped a couple of

610
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.320
<v Speaker 2>chicken cars carcasses in the middle of the day in

611
00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:53.840
<v Speaker 2>warm weather down into the large drainage value called Timmu

612
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:58.360
<v Speaker 2>vayu that ran by the killed side. He came back

613
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.199
<v Speaker 2>four hours later in the chicken cars carcasses were eaten,

614
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:05.400
<v Speaker 2>apparently by turtles. All well and good. The problem is

615
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:10.840
<v Speaker 2>is the large drainage ditch is not where the boys

616
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:15.000
<v Speaker 2>were left. They were left a small It was a

617
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:19.920
<v Speaker 2>it was a relatively small muddy ditch, and it was

618
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:25.199
<v Speaker 2>also a drainage ditch that emptied into that larger ditch,

619
00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:29.280
<v Speaker 2>and it was about two feet two to three feet deep,

620
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:33.480
<v Speaker 2>deeper in some places than others. There may have been

621
00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:37.519
<v Speaker 2>some turtles in there. I don't discount the idea that

622
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:41.000
<v Speaker 2>maybe some predation went on, but you know, there were

623
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:43.960
<v Speaker 2>some real problems. The boys were smashed down into the mud,

624
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:48.480
<v Speaker 2>which means that turtles would not have access. The boys

625
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:53.920
<v Speaker 2>were placed in at night, which means that turtles feed

626
00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:00.519
<v Speaker 2>generally during the day, and when they drained the ditch,

627
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:04.920
<v Speaker 2>they found no turtles. When that during the day, when

628
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:09.159
<v Speaker 2>they the turtles would or nearly been feeding, the woods

629
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:12.960
<v Speaker 2>were full of people searching for the victims, which means

630
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:15.440
<v Speaker 2>even if the turtle there were turtles there and they

631
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.480
<v Speaker 2>were active, they wouldn't stayed active for very long because

632
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:24.039
<v Speaker 2>basically they run away if they see They're very very observant,

633
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:26.960
<v Speaker 2>and if they see a sign of a person, they're gone.

634
00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:30.679
<v Speaker 1>And you know, the turtles have suddenly grown into giant

635
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:34.320
<v Speaker 1>prehistoric beasts too. I think that was the director of

636
00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:38.159
<v Speaker 1>West Memphis called them giant beasts. And there's real problems.

637
00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:40.679
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we know. But the interesting thing is Spits

638
00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:44.880
<v Speaker 1>never disagreed with the findings of the state forensic examiner.

639
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.400
<v Speaker 1>I think was Parretian. There was somebody else sitting in

640
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:48.880
<v Speaker 1>with PARRETI it wasn't just him.

641
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:53.239
<v Speaker 2>Oh he did. He did. Some of the others didn't,

642
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:56.039
<v Speaker 2>but he did. He said all three boys drowned. The

643
00:40:56.119 --> 00:40:58.960
<v Speaker 2>problem and this is a big problem with the animal

644
00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:06.400
<v Speaker 2>predation theory. H two of the boys drowned. They were

645
00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:17.880
<v Speaker 2>also beaten horribly and scrapped up in otherwise stab Steevie

646
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:23.159
<v Speaker 2>Branch was stabbed in the face. Christopher Byers had died

647
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:27.440
<v Speaker 2>of multiple injuries, according to Peretti, and he apparently bled out.

648
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:31.000
<v Speaker 2>He had virtually no blood left in his body, so

649
00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:36.679
<v Speaker 2>he didn't drown, and so it raises a question of

650
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:40.840
<v Speaker 2>how the injuries. If you believe in the animal predation,

651
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:43.800
<v Speaker 2>then you have to believe that the animals attacked him

652
00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:46.079
<v Speaker 2>in such a way that he bled out before his

653
00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:50.159
<v Speaker 2>body was placed in the water. It just simply makes

654
00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:55.519
<v Speaker 2>no sense. What does make sense is that they're in

655
00:41:55.559 --> 00:42:00.360
<v Speaker 2>the water, they're bleeding. Maybe a few small preatures come up,

656
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:03.559
<v Speaker 2>and you know, you use your imagination on that. But

657
00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:06.440
<v Speaker 2>there's blood in the water and attract some small predators.

658
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:11.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's even that unlikely. But as far

659
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:16.480
<v Speaker 2>as the major wounds, it just doesn't make It doesn't

660
00:42:16.519 --> 00:42:19.000
<v Speaker 2>make any sense, and it doesn't hold up with the evidence.

661
00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:22.760
<v Speaker 2>The adding further to this, if you just simply look

662
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.760
<v Speaker 2>at how the wo the wounds they're not they don't

663
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:29.079
<v Speaker 2>look like I mean, there's a lot of the wounds

664
00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:33.119
<v Speaker 2>that are marks that are left from a knife that

665
00:42:33.159 --> 00:42:37.679
<v Speaker 2>would be exactly some exactly it's probably the same knife.

666
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:39.760
<v Speaker 2>But if it's not the same knife, it was a

667
00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:42.639
<v Speaker 2>very similar knife to the knife that was found behind

668
00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:46.880
<v Speaker 2>Jason Baldwin's how known as the Late Knife in November

669
00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:48.039
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen ninety three.

670
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:54.119
<v Speaker 1>And like heavily serrated, it's like a very strong solution, right, and.

671
00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:57.800
<v Speaker 2>If it's great, take that, put that across your skin

672
00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:02.800
<v Speaker 2>and you will have thing that will look like scratch marks.

673
00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:07.039
<v Speaker 2>But you can see the difference between an animal scratch

674
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:12.280
<v Speaker 2>marks and scratch marks made by some mechanically made device.

675
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:16.000
<v Speaker 2>And if you look at the autopsy photos for those

676
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:20.360
<v Speaker 2>who really want to look at some really terrible, terrible photos,

677
00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:24.800
<v Speaker 2>those are horrible. If you look at those where you're

678
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:28.719
<v Speaker 2>seeing our wounds that are left by some sort of

679
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:34.159
<v Speaker 2>mechanically made device and not buy an animal. And I'm

680
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:37.280
<v Speaker 2>not an expert on that. I'm just saying what I'm

681
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:38.519
<v Speaker 2>just seeing what I see.

682
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:43.800
<v Speaker 1>Gary, we are at forty five minutes. Is there anything

683
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:48.320
<v Speaker 1>that you'd like to add or promote or anything I missed?

684
00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:52.360
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean we could I could go on about

685
00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:55.519
<v Speaker 2>this for quite a while, but we covered the big things.

686
00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:59.800
<v Speaker 2>William I do appreciate this. I appreciate your other work.

687
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Know you you could. I saw your interview with Operaman

688
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:06.519
<v Speaker 2>the other day, ed the other day. He's a great

689
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:10.920
<v Speaker 2>host by the way, but you know you could. You

690
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:15.760
<v Speaker 2>could for the hour two so it's it's you know,

691
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:18.639
<v Speaker 2>but thanks for having me on. I do appreciate it.

692
00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:21.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm glad that you made it. And people need

693
00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:24.400
<v Speaker 1>to get your books Blood on Black where the Monsters Go,

694
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:29.360
<v Speaker 1>very reasonably priced on Amazon. Tons of information, and you've

695
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:33.280
<v Speaker 1>got forty nine episodes on your podcast, The Case Against

696
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:39.400
<v Speaker 1>So Counting counting right, so people go check those out again.

697
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:42.159
<v Speaker 1>It's Gary mess Emmy e. C. Thank you so much,

698
00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Gary

699
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:44.719
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, William, bye bye, by bye bye