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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Pathwe Chile for part two of

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<v Speaker 1>our series about the murder of Ashley Estell. Robin, do

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<v Speaker 1>you want to catch everyone up on what we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about in our previous episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is a heartbreaking case involving a seven year

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<v Speaker 2>old victim named Ashley Estelle who lived in Plano, Texas

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<v Speaker 2>in September of nineteen ninety three, and she was going

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<v Speaker 2>to her brother's soccer tournament in the middle of a

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<v Speaker 2>public park and she separated from her parents for a

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<v Speaker 2>few minutes to go play in the playground. But even

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<v Speaker 2>though there were hundreds of people around, she somehow got

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<v Speaker 2>abducted without anyone seeing or hearing anything, and the following day,

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<v Speaker 2>her murdered body would be discovered next to a remote

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<v Speaker 2>country road and would turn out that she had been

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<v Speaker 2>strangled to death. It was long before a potential suspect

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<v Speaker 2>named Michael Blair popped up on the radar. He was

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<v Speaker 2>a convicted sex offender who had spent time in prison

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<v Speaker 2>for attempting to sexually assault and kidnap a young girl

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<v Speaker 2>from her bedroom, and even though he received a ten

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<v Speaker 2>year prison sense, he was released after only serving eighteen months.

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<v Speaker 2>He caught on the investigator's attention because he drove by

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<v Speaker 2>Ashley Estelle's murder scene and he seemed to have a

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<v Speaker 2>weird obsession with the case, so they gradually built a

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<v Speaker 2>case against him, and he was finally charged with Ashley's murder,

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<v Speaker 2>and it turned out that most of the case against

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<v Speaker 2>him was based on what we now know as junk science,

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<v Speaker 2>because they found hairs on Ashley's body, but of course

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<v Speaker 2>they did not match Blair, and they found hairs and

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<v Speaker 2>fiber evidence in his car, but of course none of

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<v Speaker 2>it could be linked to Ashley or the murder scene.

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<v Speaker 2>And Blair was definitely a bad guy because he did

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<v Speaker 2>have an extensive history of molesting children and because he

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<v Speaker 2>was painted as such a monster in court. He was

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<v Speaker 2>convicted at his trial, but surprisingly he spent eighteen years

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<v Speaker 2>on death row. But they did DNA testing against the evidence,

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<v Speaker 2>and surprisingly it turned out that none of it actually

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<v Speaker 2>match Blair. He was exonerated as being responsible for Ashley's murder,

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<v Speaker 2>but because while he was in prison he had confessed

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<v Speaker 2>to molesting some other children before he was charged with

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<v Speaker 2>the murder, he wound up getting some additional life sentences

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<v Speaker 2>added to his original death sentence. So even though he

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<v Speaker 2>was taken off death row, he was not released from prison.

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<v Speaker 2>Emerald Man incarcerated for the rest of his life because

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<v Speaker 2>of his other child sex offenses. So they've attempted to

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<v Speaker 2>try to figure out who Ashley's real killer might be.

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<v Speaker 2>They looked at an unnamed individual named Suspect number four,

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<v Speaker 2>who has since passed away, but they've yet to find

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<v Speaker 2>any evidence such as DNA which proves he could have

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<v Speaker 2>been responsible for murdering Ashley. So officially, after thirty years,

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<v Speaker 2>more than thirty years, this crime is still unsolved. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>This is definitely one of the most complex wrongful conviction

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<v Speaker 2>cases I've ever come across, and it's pretty remarkable to

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<v Speaker 2>see how this story has evolved over the past three decades.

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<v Speaker 2>If you type Ashley Estelle's name into YouTube, you'll find

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<v Speaker 2>a one hour clip which is a compilation of local

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<v Speaker 2>news segments which aired in the year following her murder

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<v Speaker 2>and chronicled the investigation and arrest of Michael Blair, along

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<v Speaker 2>with his subsequent trial and conviction. And if you were

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<v Speaker 2>following the media coverage at that time, it would really

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<v Speaker 2>be hard to imagine Blair being innocent of this crime.

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<v Speaker 2>There was zero doubt that Blair was a dangerous sexual

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<v Speaker 2>predator who armed children, and many of those aforementioned news

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<v Speaker 2>segments put a heavy emphasis on the fact that he

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<v Speaker 2>was senced to ten years in prison for attempting to

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<v Speaker 2>assault and abduct an eleven year old girl, but he

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<v Speaker 2>wound up being after serving only eighteen months. This escalated

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<v Speaker 2>into quite a scandal, as the Texas Board of Pardons

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<v Speaker 2>and Pearles tried to do a lot of covering up

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<v Speaker 2>to justify their decision, such as concocting a really lame

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<v Speaker 2>story about how the paperwork about Blair's attack on the

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<v Speaker 2>girl was mistakenly left out of his file at his

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<v Speaker 2>parole hearing. Well, the fact of the matter is that

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<v Speaker 2>Blair's early release was due largely to an epidemic of

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<v Speaker 2>serious prison overcrowding which took place in Texas during the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighties and early nineties. It reached the point where

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<v Speaker 2>as many inmates as possible had to receive parole or

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<v Speaker 2>early release in order to deal with this issue, and unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>this meant that some dangerous criminals were allowed to walk

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<v Speaker 2>back out under the streets and wound up reoffending. So

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<v Speaker 2>you can imagine the outrage when everyone believed that Blair

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<v Speaker 2>murdered Ashley Estelle during a time period he should have

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<v Speaker 2>been behind bars serving a ten year sentence. As we

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned in our last episode, this whole controversy led to

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<v Speaker 2>the passing of Ashley the Laws, which ensured that sex

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<v Speaker 2>offenders who harm children when receive harsher sentences lesser chances

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<v Speaker 2>of parole and mandatory sex offender registration if they did

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<v Speaker 2>get released. Now, even though he did not actually kill Ashley,

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<v Speaker 2>we know that Blair did molest some children after he

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<v Speaker 2>was parolled, so the decision to release him still had

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<v Speaker 2>negative consequences. Those who champion Ashley's Laws do not believe

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<v Speaker 2>Blair's exoneration made the legislation any less worthwhile, and I

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<v Speaker 2>do agree with that though it's pretty ironic how these

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<v Speaker 2>laws stem from a case which turned out to be

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<v Speaker 2>a wrongful conviction.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, when you step back and you think about these laws,

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<v Speaker 3>that Ashley's Laws that come out, I don't think anyone

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<v Speaker 3>would say those shouldn't be in place.

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<v Speaker 4>When you look at the idea that it.

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<v Speaker 3>Took a person who was wrongfully convicted of the murder

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<v Speaker 3>of a child for these laws to pass, none of

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<v Speaker 3>these laws are about murder. There to get a notification

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<v Speaker 3>and I didn't vcation and awareness about who sexual predators

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<v Speaker 3>are in the community and to get higher punishments for

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<v Speaker 3>these sex offenders. That should have been in place long

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<v Speaker 3>before Ashley Estelle was ever killed. That should have been

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<v Speaker 3>in place when they started to pay attention to the

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<v Speaker 3>serial nature of child sex offenders, when they started to

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<v Speaker 3>pay attention to the fact that once they start offending

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<v Speaker 3>against a child, it's likely that that's something that is

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<v Speaker 3>going to be continuous. It's something that will escalate, it's

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<v Speaker 3>something that's really difficult to overcome. And so why it

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<v Speaker 3>took Ashley's death is what's frustrating. And you do have

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<v Speaker 3>to step back and say, you know, are we basing

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<v Speaker 3>it on his sexual offenses that he committed, because we

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<v Speaker 3>know that Blair did have sexual offenses against children. So

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<v Speaker 3>Blair alone could have been an example for Ashley's law

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<v Speaker 3>without Ashley's murder. So the part that maddens me is

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<v Speaker 3>that the murder of this little child should have had

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<v Speaker 3>nothing to do with the existence of these laws in

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<v Speaker 3>the first place. But I I'm grateful as a mother

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<v Speaker 3>and a community person and someone who wants to protect

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<v Speaker 3>the children of our communities that these laws are on

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<v Speaker 3>the books.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I should have mention that the overcrowding in

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<v Speaker 2>prisons in Texas was a serious issue during the nineteen eighties,

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<v Speaker 2>and there were criminals even worse than Michael Blair who

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<v Speaker 2>wound up getting released even though they really shouldn't have been.

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<v Speaker 2>And one of those is serial killer Kenneth McDuff, who

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<v Speaker 2>was originally sentenced to death for a murder from the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventies, got it commuted to life imprisonment, but then

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<v Speaker 2>got released in nineteen eighty nine because the prisons were

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<v Speaker 2>so crowded that they just had to start releasing dangerous

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<v Speaker 2>offenders and hope they had rehabilitated. And then Kenneth McDuck

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<v Speaker 2>went on to kill more people before he was recaptured.

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<v Speaker 2>So this was a rampant problem. And it is a

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<v Speaker 2>big shame that Michael Player, even though he did not

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<v Speaker 2>kill Ashley, did wind up harming other children after his

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<v Speaker 2>early release.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know how I didn't know that about Texas.

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<v Speaker 1>I had this idea in my head that they're so

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<v Speaker 1>tough on crime that I thought that it wasn't possible

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<v Speaker 1>that they would rule least all of these prisoners prematurely.

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<v Speaker 1>It goes against this obviously false belief that I held.

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<v Speaker 1>This is really wild, but as sho, didn't you live

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<v Speaker 1>in Texas for a while.

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<v Speaker 3>I did, And I believe that McDuff actually told the

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<v Speaker 3>prison officials and the sheriff that if you release me,

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<v Speaker 3>you're going to have another body on your doorstep. And

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<v Speaker 3>he followed through with that after he was released, and

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<v Speaker 3>so they it was almost no systematic approach to it.

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<v Speaker 3>It was, oh, you murdered someone, likelihood you'd kill again

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<v Speaker 3>is lo How do you know that?

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<v Speaker 4>Right?

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<v Speaker 3>Because he was a dangerous offender, and so he even

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<v Speaker 3>said you should not release me, and then he went

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<v Speaker 3>on to kill. Beyond that, it became to the point

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<v Speaker 3>where it was just so overcrowded they desperately had to

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<v Speaker 3>start opening doors and figuring out, you know, we're going

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<v Speaker 3>to take a gamble, and a lot of those gambles

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<v Speaker 3>did not pay off. Texas is crazy. It's very very

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<v Speaker 3>harsh on crime. But then they do just like every

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<v Speaker 3>other you know, corrections department, when they don't have the

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<v Speaker 3>budget and they don't have the space, it almost seems

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<v Speaker 3>like they're not really looking at the data when they

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<v Speaker 3>make some of these decisions.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think this is a situation where they were

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<v Speaker 2>just too tough on crime and as a result, they

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<v Speaker 2>did not have a space for all their prisoners.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's really no other way to say this. Michael

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<v Speaker 1>Blair is a sick human being and he most definitely

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<v Speaker 1>deserves to be locked up for the rest of his life.

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<v Speaker 1>This isn't like most other wrongful conviction cases, as there

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<v Speaker 1>was no emotional scene where an innocent person walked out

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<v Speaker 1>of prison to experience freedom for the first time in years.

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<v Speaker 1>Even though his death sentence was overturned ensuring that he

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<v Speaker 1>would not be executed for murder, Blair had already received

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<v Speaker 1>multiple life sentences for molesting other children, so the only

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<v Speaker 1>change was that he was transferred from death row to

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<v Speaker 1>the prison's general population. I know everyone was pretty insulted

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<v Speaker 1>when Blair sought one million in compensation for his wrongful conviction.

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<v Speaker 1>A few years earlier, Texas had passed a bill called

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<v Speaker 1>the Tim Cole Act, named after a young man who

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<v Speaker 1>was wrongfully convicted of rape and died in prison before

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<v Speaker 1>his family used DNA evidence to exonerate him and earn

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<v Speaker 1>him a posthumous pardon. The Tim Cole Act ensured that

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<v Speaker 1>anyone who was wrongfully convicted would receive one hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>sixty thousand for each year of incarceration, but Cole's brother

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<v Speaker 1>publicly stated that awarding that type of compensation to Blair,

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<v Speaker 1>who was guilty of a number of other terrible crimes,

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<v Speaker 1>would soil his brother's name and memory. It's a valid

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<v Speaker 1>point since the money is supposed to help wrongfully convicted

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<v Speaker 1>people to readjust to society, and there's no reason a

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<v Speaker 1>child molestor who is going to remain locked up for

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<v Speaker 1>the rest of his life needs one million dollars, which

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<v Speaker 1>is why his request was ultimately rejected.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, honestly, when you look at Blair's case,

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of states have these clauses built in that'll

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<v Speaker 3>say if if you are a dangerous offender, if you

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<v Speaker 3>have a record, if you have things that would have

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<v Speaker 3>made the police more likely to include you in a

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<v Speaker 3>suspect pool or elevate your suspects status, that those things

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<v Speaker 3>can all chip away into the compensation decision. And so

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<v Speaker 3>even though there are compensation statutes on the books, there's

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<v Speaker 3>also exceptions woven in to say, oh that would take

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<v Speaker 3>off half of the money. Oh, this would actually exclude

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<v Speaker 3>you from getting money. And so again I don't think

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<v Speaker 3>anyone with Blair is going, oh, this poor man, he

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<v Speaker 3>has to be made whole again. His family needs to

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<v Speaker 3>be made a whole again.

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<v Speaker 4>But when you look.

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<v Speaker 3>At the laws, they're very very pro state. There to

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<v Speaker 3>protect the Department of Corrections in the state. They are

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<v Speaker 3>not to protect someone who's wrongfully convicted. So when it

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<v Speaker 3>isn't someone like Blair. You look at these compensation statutes

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<v Speaker 3>and on paper, some of them look pretty powerful, but

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<v Speaker 3>then you'll start to see things where it says, unless

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<v Speaker 3>it's a DNA exoneration, you will get nothing, and there's

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<v Speaker 3>these kind of just crazy restrictions on them. Some people

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<v Speaker 3>walk away with nothing when truly they were not dangerous

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<v Speaker 3>offenders that put themselves at the heart of the crime.

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<v Speaker 1>Quick question for you, Ash, I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 1>know the stats on this, but just maybe in your

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<v Speaker 1>personal opinion, what percentage of people who are wrongfully incarcerated

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<v Speaker 1>actually get the compensation that they deserve. And I don't

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<v Speaker 1>mean people where they've said like you are absolutely factually

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<v Speaker 1>like innocent of this, but just those who are wrongily

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<v Speaker 1>incarcerated and who get let out. And I know there's

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<v Speaker 1>different types of designations or results for that, like you

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<v Speaker 1>are innocent, you're pardoned of the crime, and then sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>they're just let out. What percentage did those people get compensation?

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<v Speaker 3>So a quick surge when you look at it, it

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<v Speaker 3>says as of twenty twenty three that it looks like

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<v Speaker 3>around forty one percent of exonerated individuals who have sought

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<v Speaker 3>payment received it. Now that means that there has to

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<v Speaker 3>be an attorney who's teaching them and saying, hey, you're

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<v Speaker 3>eligible for it, you need to go after it, and

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<v Speaker 3>here's what you should be compensated with.

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<v Speaker 4>Do people not seek after it if.

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<v Speaker 3>They know that they're in a jurisdiction where they are

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<v Speaker 3>not eligible given a set of circumstances. So I think

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<v Speaker 3>that's a misleading stat I think it's low. And remember too,

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of people are exonerated or freed, but their

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<v Speaker 3>criminal record is not always expunged and they're not always

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<v Speaker 3>released with this freedom pass. And so remember things like

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<v Speaker 3>an Alfred plea or making an agreement with the state

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<v Speaker 3>is part of the release of that prisoner, and so

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<v Speaker 3>in those cases, they aren't able to come after compensation,

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<v Speaker 3>because they'll say, we'll let you walk today. If you

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<v Speaker 3>want to plead guilty, we'll let you walk today. If

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<v Speaker 3>you want to take an Alford plea, you can walk

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<v Speaker 3>today if you'll sign that you agree that you're not

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<v Speaker 3>coming after the state. So I mean there's deals like

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<v Speaker 3>that made all the time. And so if eligible and

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<v Speaker 3>they've applied for it, forty one percent, I would say

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<v Speaker 3>a very glow percentage actually get compensated for what they

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<v Speaker 3>are eligible for what they deserve.

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<v Speaker 2>It's hard to understand what Blair's motivation might have been

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<v Speaker 2>when he decided to confess to molesting all these other

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<v Speaker 2>children while he was on death row. Perhaps he felt

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<v Speaker 2>there was no way his death sentence was going to

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<v Speaker 2>be overturned, and he just wanted to clear his conscience

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<v Speaker 2>before he was executed. I did not want to go

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<v Speaker 2>into explicit detail about Blair's crimes on these episodes, but

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<v Speaker 2>if you want to learn more information, go check out

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<v Speaker 2>the article published in d magazine by Jackie Hilburn in

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and one. She interviewed Blair and had to

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<v Speaker 2>read all those letters he sent her in which he

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<v Speaker 2>described all his abuse against children in graphic detail. And

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<v Speaker 2>being a mother herself. This made Hilburn physically ill. It's

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<v Speaker 2>definitely a good thing that Blair wound up being convicted

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<v Speaker 2>of additional crimes while he was on death row, because

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<v Speaker 2>if he had walked out of prison after his murder

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<v Speaker 2>conviction was overturned, I think it's pretty much a guarantee

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<v Speaker 2>he would have attempted to harm more children, because it

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<v Speaker 2>looks like he was one of those serial predators who

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<v Speaker 2>just cannot stop.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly, Blair is someone who has an affinity for

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<v Speaker 3>hurting innocent children. And so when you look at this

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<v Speaker 3>idea that he is, you know, convicted of these additional crimes,

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<v Speaker 3>he's put in life, into prison for life. Even though

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<v Speaker 3>he's exonerated for this murder conviction, it's still incredibly powerful

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<v Speaker 3>to say, thank goodness someone like this was locked up right.

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<v Speaker 3>Like you said, there's no grief loss, there's no sadness here,

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<v Speaker 3>there's no rallies outside saying free this man. He's innocent,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, release him back into the community where he

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<v Speaker 3>can be a successful member of our society. I think

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<v Speaker 3>people were pretty quiet when Blair's conviction was overturned, and

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<v Speaker 3>like you said, when you look there's a whole lot

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<v Speaker 3>of def details about Blair and the death of Ashley

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<v Speaker 3>a stealth and so for on his front, I don't

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<v Speaker 3>think many people were very upset that he ended up

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<v Speaker 3>serving life in prison anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>In most cases, I'd be pretty agast at the idea

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<v Speaker 1>that the jury at his murder trial took only twenty

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<v Speaker 1>seven minutes to find him guilty. But I can kind

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00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:28.080
<v Speaker 1>of understand why it happened here. The jury wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 1>known the physical evidence against him was junk science, or

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<v Speaker 1>been aware of the credibility issues with Charles Lynch, the

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<v Speaker 1>forensic analyst who testified against him, And even though Blair

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<v Speaker 1>denied being a murderer, the trial did not shy away

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<v Speaker 1>from sharing some of his other heinous crimes, which included

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<v Speaker 1>raping his six year old half sister when he was

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00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:51.919
<v Speaker 1>a teen. So I can definitely see why the jury

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00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:55.159
<v Speaker 1>would believe that he was more than capable of killing Ashley.

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<v Speaker 1>It's no secret that Texas is the most pro death

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<v Speaker 1>penalty state there is, and to sent a number of

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00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.519
<v Speaker 1>people to death row who turned out to be innocent.

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<v Speaker 1>But that doesn't necessarily mean all of those exoneries were

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00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:12.200
<v Speaker 1>good people. If you're on our Patreon pages. You might

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<v Speaker 1>recall that Robin and I once did an exclusive bonus

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<v Speaker 1>Minnesot about the nineteen seventy nine murder of Deborah Jackson,

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00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.759
<v Speaker 1>who spent forty years as an unidentified Jane Doe known

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00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:27.039
<v Speaker 1>only as Orange Socks. Notorious serial killer Henry Lee Lucas

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00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.839
<v Speaker 1>was sentenced to death for her murder after he falsely

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00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.880
<v Speaker 1>confessed to it, but the sentence was later commuted to

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00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.799
<v Speaker 1>life imprisonment because the evidence clearly showed that Lucas was

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00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.640
<v Speaker 1>in an entirely different state at the time the crime

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00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:44.000
<v Speaker 1>took place. Like Michael Blair, Lucas was a vile individual

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00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:46.400
<v Speaker 1>who was guilty of other crimes and deserved to be

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<v Speaker 1>locked up. But no matter what your views on the

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00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.799
<v Speaker 1>death penalty might be, if you execute these monsters for

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00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:55.880
<v Speaker 1>the crimes they did not actually commit, that allows the

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00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.480
<v Speaker 1>real killer to get away with it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, yes, Juels for the people in the back,

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00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:04.000
<v Speaker 3>you got to say aloud, right, it allows the real

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00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:07.839
<v Speaker 3>killer to get away with this. So I've often heard

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00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.200
<v Speaker 3>people when we're sitting around and we're talking and someone says, oh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>did you hear there's this guy who might not have

329
00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:16.279
<v Speaker 3>done this crime and people say, who cares, right, who

330
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:19.599
<v Speaker 3>cares this guy's trouble anyway, or oh man, that guy's

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<v Speaker 3>been scum ever since you know, he's been here and

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<v Speaker 3>everyone knows he's a bad guy.

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<v Speaker 4>And I'm thinking you should care. I care.

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<v Speaker 3>We care because if the wrong person is locked up

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00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.160
<v Speaker 3>and a guilty person is now on the streets, and

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<v Speaker 3>with crimes like this, with crimes against children, sexual crimes

337
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.559
<v Speaker 3>against children, crimes that are going to escalate in intensity,

338
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:48.359
<v Speaker 3>who's the next child that's going to be hurt by

339
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.559
<v Speaker 3>this person who actually killed Ashley Stell or Orange socks? Right,

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00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.440
<v Speaker 3>So if you do not get the correct defender, if

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<v Speaker 3>you do not lock up the right person, even though

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00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:01.839
<v Speaker 3>a wrongful conviction should may get someone like Henry Lee

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00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:07.839
<v Speaker 3>Lucas in prison or his sentence elongated, you have a

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00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:12.559
<v Speaker 3>killer or a sexual sadist or someone walking around and

345
00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:15.680
<v Speaker 3>everyone is now at risk. So all of us should

346
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.920
<v Speaker 3>be carrying. And on the flip side, when you look

347
00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:22.000
<v Speaker 3>at people who are executed, same kind of thing where

348
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.880
<v Speaker 3>people go, yeah, but they had done all these other things, Well,

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00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:27.279
<v Speaker 3>you want to make sure that our justice system is

350
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<v Speaker 3>always getting it right. And with the death penalty, and

351
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<v Speaker 3>things like that. If there's a chance that people get

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00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:37.720
<v Speaker 3>it wrong, which we know we see in wrongfulu miicture cases,

353
00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:39.960
<v Speaker 3>you just got to be really careful with those kind

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<v Speaker 3>of ultimate decisions because you can't take them back.

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<v Speaker 2>And in these situations, I often think of Stephen Avery

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<v Speaker 2>because no matter what you think of him, he was

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<v Speaker 2>genuinely wrongfully convicted for the rape charge from nineteen eighty

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<v Speaker 2>five and served eighteen years for a rape he did

359
00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:58.799
<v Speaker 2>not commit. And some people might think, well, he was

360
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<v Speaker 2>a terrible person anyway, so he deserved it. But then

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00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:04.400
<v Speaker 2>you remember that the real rapist in that case, Greg Reallen,

362
00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:07.680
<v Speaker 2>he wound up braping I think two or three other women. Well,

363
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<v Speaker 2>Avery was incarcerated in prison. So that's yet another example

364
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:13.400
<v Speaker 2>where even if someone's a bad human being, you put

365
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<v Speaker 2>him in prison for the crimes that you do not commit,

366
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:17.880
<v Speaker 2>and the real killer, the real perpetrator, is free to

367
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<v Speaker 2>harm other people. So let's go back to the beginning

368
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<v Speaker 2>and see how this crime unfolded. This is another one

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<v Speaker 2>of those heartbreaking cases in which a child was murdered

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<v Speaker 2>after seemingly being abducted in the blink of an eye.

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<v Speaker 2>To recap Ashley Estelle's parents took her to a soccer

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<v Speaker 2>tournament in Carpenter Park and only let her out of

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<v Speaker 2>their sight for a few minutes so she could use

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<v Speaker 2>a swing set at a playground located just a couple

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<v Speaker 2>yards away. But even though there were literally over one

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<v Speaker 2>thousand people in the park that day, an unknown perpetrator

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<v Speaker 2>somehow managed to abduct Ashley and flee the area without

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<v Speaker 2>anyone seeing anything. This story is every parent's worst nightmare

379
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<v Speaker 2>and shows just how easily something horrible like this can

380
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<v Speaker 2>have happen. What's even more incredible is that a number

381
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:06.000
<v Speaker 2>of people were filming the soccer games that day, which

382
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<v Speaker 2>prompted law enforcement to collect and extensively study their footage,

383
00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.440
<v Speaker 2>but it doesn't sound like anyone captured anything which provided

384
00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:17.319
<v Speaker 2>clues about Ashley's abduction. One of the biggest points which

385
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:19.839
<v Speaker 2>was made in Michael Blair's defense is that there were

386
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<v Speaker 2>no witnesses who could place him and Ashley together that day.

387
00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.039
<v Speaker 2>But there were also no witnesses who could place Ashley

388
00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:28.799
<v Speaker 2>with anyone else who might have abducted her, which is

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<v Speaker 2>why this case is so frustrating.

390
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<v Speaker 3>You know, you got to think about what a soccer

391
00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:35.839
<v Speaker 3>field looks like when there's a tournament going on, or

392
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.920
<v Speaker 3>there's a ton of kids and families. I mean, there's

393
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.200
<v Speaker 3>moms and dads there, and so we'd like to think

394
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<v Speaker 3>that a sexual predator or a child rapist or killer

395
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<v Speaker 3>is going to look like a monster from a movie,

396
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:56.200
<v Speaker 3>but they probably look like a soccer dad or just

397
00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:00.400
<v Speaker 3>somebody who's at the public park. So there's no way

398
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.680
<v Speaker 3>of saying, oh, you know, this guy was so scary looking,

399
00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:08.519
<v Speaker 3>he was so suspicious looking, because there's thousands of people there.

400
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<v Speaker 3>There are men and women and children, and so it's

401
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:18.039
<v Speaker 3>you would have to do something pretty grand to stand

402
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:21.519
<v Speaker 3>out amongst those people. Again, at the playground, how many

403
00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:24.759
<v Speaker 3>parents were not at the field where their kids were

404
00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:29.200
<v Speaker 3>playing and instead we're sitting there watching the playground like

405
00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:33.200
<v Speaker 3>a hog. Probably not many, because everyone's kind of centered

406
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:37.039
<v Speaker 3>around that playground, but also watching the soccer field where

407
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:39.880
<v Speaker 3>their other child's playing. And so I just don't think

408
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.960
<v Speaker 3>anybody had sharp eyes on the playground. What if someone

409
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:44.839
<v Speaker 3>walked by with a dog on a leash and just

410
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<v Speaker 3>gently walked by and said, hey, you want to pet

411
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<v Speaker 3>my puppy. Come when you'll come walk the puppy with

412
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.400
<v Speaker 3>me and walked off, or oh, did you see that

413
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.519
<v Speaker 3>ball over there by the woods? Come help me get

414
00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:58.000
<v Speaker 3>that ball in the woods. And just as they're walking

415
00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:00.559
<v Speaker 3>by and just take this little one and walk keep walking.

416
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<v Speaker 3>Who would beat their eye and think that's not her dad,

417
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<v Speaker 3>you know, unless they were looking and hearing and watching

418
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<v Speaker 3>that interaction. Specifically, if I just saw a little girl

419
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<v Speaker 3>and a younger or average age man walking away, I

420
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:16.960
<v Speaker 3>would think that's that little girl's dad or uncle or

421
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<v Speaker 3>coach or something like that. So that situation is just

422
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<v Speaker 3>so scary to think of from this perspective, because predators

423
00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:27.839
<v Speaker 3>don't stand out. That's how they're successful at getting people

424
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:31.799
<v Speaker 3>to look the other way, or to do things under

425
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.480
<v Speaker 3>the noses of people who are watching.

426
00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:36.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm guessing you ever this person was, it was

427
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.200
<v Speaker 2>probably someone very nondescript, not someone that you would just

428
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.240
<v Speaker 2>look at and say, ooh, look at that creepy guy

429
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.839
<v Speaker 2>over there. That's not someone I want hanging around children.

430
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:47.359
<v Speaker 2>And they were likely able to blend into a crowd,

431
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.319
<v Speaker 2>and that might be why they were able to lure

432
00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Ashley an abductor without anyone seeing anything.

433
00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.880
<v Speaker 1>It's scary to think that some predators seem to be

434
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:00.559
<v Speaker 1>the best profilers, like they're able to pick just the kid,

435
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.799
<v Speaker 1>and they're able to blend in so seamlessly that nobody

436
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.960
<v Speaker 1>notices and nobody can clock like what their monstrous intentions

437
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:12.279
<v Speaker 1>are now Well, there are some wrongful conviction cases where

438
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:16.039
<v Speaker 1>it's obvious the authorities knew they were railroading an innocent person.

439
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:19.240
<v Speaker 1>I have no problem believing that the authorities in this

440
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:22.759
<v Speaker 1>case genuinely believe that Michael Blair was the right guy,

441
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:27.039
<v Speaker 1>even putting aside his past record for crimes against children.

442
00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.279
<v Speaker 1>He first showed up on the police's radar by driving

443
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:33.559
<v Speaker 1>by the murder scene several times. He had a flyer

444
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:36.680
<v Speaker 1>for Ashley's disappearance in his vehicle and a stuffed bunny,

445
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.559
<v Speaker 1>which totally fits the profile of a sexual predator using

446
00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:44.079
<v Speaker 1>toys to lure children. Blair's alibi on the day of

447
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:46.279
<v Speaker 1>the crime was that he was sleeping in his apartment

448
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:49.319
<v Speaker 1>alone and there was a period of several hours where

449
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:53.960
<v Speaker 1>no other eyewitnesses could account for his whereabouts. Blair's roommate

450
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:56.920
<v Speaker 1>verified that he returned home and found Blair sleeping at

451
00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.400
<v Speaker 1>four thirty pm, and while the timeframe for Lair to

452
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.160
<v Speaker 1>have murdered Ashley and make it back to his apartment

453
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:05.680
<v Speaker 1>by four point thirty would have been tight. It was

454
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:11.240
<v Speaker 1>not impossible, since forensic science was nowhere near as advanced

455
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:13.680
<v Speaker 1>back then as it is today. I'm sure it was

456
00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:16.720
<v Speaker 1>easy to believe that the Charles Lynch's testimony about the

457
00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:21.359
<v Speaker 1>hair and fiber evidence linking Blair to the crime was legitimate. However,

458
00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:24.599
<v Speaker 1>the one thing about the prosecution's case which I did

459
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:29.039
<v Speaker 1>find a bit unethical was placing so much emphasis on

460
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:32.400
<v Speaker 1>some clump of hairs found at Jack Carter Park and

461
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:35.920
<v Speaker 1>having experts testify that the hairs were consistent with Ashley

462
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:40.720
<v Speaker 1>and Blair. This location was two miles away from Carpenter Park,

463
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.680
<v Speaker 1>and since there was no evidence that either of them

464
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.240
<v Speaker 1>went to that park to begin with, the clump of

465
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:49.839
<v Speaker 1>hairs likely had no connection to the case. If this

466
00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:52.960
<v Speaker 1>crime had taken place in the era before DNA testing,

467
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:55.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't think there's much chance that Blair would have

468
00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:00.880
<v Speaker 1>been exonerated, but DNA evidence doesn't lie. Though the Colin

469
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.799
<v Speaker 1>County District Attorney's office was initially reluctant to acknowledge that

470
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:08.000
<v Speaker 1>they may have convicted the wrong man, to their credit,

471
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.720
<v Speaker 1>they did finally change their tune once it became obvious

472
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.319
<v Speaker 1>that none of the forensic evidence matched Blair. I'm sure

473
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.200
<v Speaker 1>the knowledge that Blair was going to remain incarcerated for

474
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:21.480
<v Speaker 1>his other crimes made the decision to overturn his death

475
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.000
<v Speaker 1>sentence much easier.

476
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh.

477
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:27.240
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, And when you do have the DNA evidence, it's

478
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.880
<v Speaker 3>not guaranteed, but it's much easier to say, hey, look

479
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:33.960
<v Speaker 3>we got it wrong. It's not an argument at that point,

480
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:36.440
<v Speaker 3>and so I think it gave peace of saying he's

481
00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:38.279
<v Speaker 3>going to get exonerated for this, but don't worry, he

482
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.079
<v Speaker 3>can't be released. But I have to go back to

483
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:44.039
<v Speaker 3>when you're talking about the testimonies. You know, by default,

484
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:47.119
<v Speaker 3>if you think about the way our justice system is designed,

485
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:50.799
<v Speaker 3>it's quote innocent until proven guilty. But by the time

486
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:53.759
<v Speaker 3>you walk into a courtroom in a prison jumpsuit or

487
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.680
<v Speaker 3>you know you're being called the main suspect, the jury

488
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:00.200
<v Speaker 3>already believes that the state must have gotten it right,

489
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.039
<v Speaker 3>or you wouldn't have gotten that far because we all

490
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:06.000
<v Speaker 3>know of cases that should have been brought to prosecution

491
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:08.920
<v Speaker 3>and they weren't. And so if it makes it that far,

492
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.279
<v Speaker 3>the jury already thinks. I'm pretty sure the state knows

493
00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:15.039
<v Speaker 3>what they're doing, and so there is an inclination to

494
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:21.039
<v Speaker 3>trust everything that prosecution witnesses say, everything that forensic experts

495
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:25.240
<v Speaker 3>say from a prosecution standpoint, and to automatically cast doubt

496
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.519
<v Speaker 3>or lower the significance of any defense witness or defense

497
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:32.480
<v Speaker 3>expert that's put on the stand. And so just by

498
00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:35.799
<v Speaker 3>the nature of our justice system, you're in trouble if

499
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:39.680
<v Speaker 3>you're sitting in the defendant seat. And then here at

500
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:43.200
<v Speaker 3>the time, remember, we didn't know as much information about

501
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.960
<v Speaker 3>the subjective nature of forensic science, about this junk science

502
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:51.960
<v Speaker 3>that comes about. And even today, if you called one

503
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:55.079
<v Speaker 3>of us up to the stand to testify about issues

504
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.160
<v Speaker 3>with eyewitness identification, but a woman gets up and says,

505
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:00.400
<v Speaker 3>I'm one hundred percent sure, and she has tears in

506
00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.799
<v Speaker 3>her eyes, I will never forget the face of this man,

507
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:06.680
<v Speaker 3>and she's one hundred percent sure. On the day of trial,

508
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:10.920
<v Speaker 3>even with scientific evidence showing a jury why that's not

509
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:16.039
<v Speaker 3>one hundred percent, I still think jurors, as human beings

510
00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:19.720
<v Speaker 3>and not scientists, are going to side with the emotional,

511
00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:23.480
<v Speaker 3>the kind of normal nature that the prosecution tells the

512
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.240
<v Speaker 3>truth that the prosecution is always right and the defense

513
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:29.519
<v Speaker 3>is just trying to get their person off. So it's

514
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:30.519
<v Speaker 3>really complicated.

515
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.200
<v Speaker 1>Is that like the Ronald Cotton case? It was it Ronald.

516
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:34.720
<v Speaker 4>Cotton so great.

517
00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:37.240
<v Speaker 3>Ronald Cotton is one of the best best cases to

518
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:38.480
<v Speaker 3>look at for a wrongful conviction.

519
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:40.920
<v Speaker 4>Yes, Jennifer Thompson and Ronald Cotton.

520
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.160
<v Speaker 2>And I'm sure even though the jury would never admit this,

521
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:46.680
<v Speaker 2>I bet they were influenced by the fact that all

522
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:50.759
<v Speaker 2>of Blair's crimes against children, his sexual offenses were introduced

523
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.680
<v Speaker 2>during the trials. So they're thinking to themselves, I'm supposed

524
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:55.880
<v Speaker 2>to remain unbiased. I'm supposed to only look at the

525
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:58.839
<v Speaker 2>evidence which alleges that he killed Ashley. But I'm sure

526
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:00.559
<v Speaker 2>in the back of their mind certain things. There's no

527
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:02.319
<v Speaker 2>way I want to let this man back on the

528
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:05.359
<v Speaker 2>streets because he's obviously, even if he didn't commit this crime,

529
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:08.720
<v Speaker 2>he's still a danger to society. So if the killer

530
00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:12.839
<v Speaker 2>wasn't Blair, then who really did abduct and murder Ashley? Well,

531
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:16.440
<v Speaker 2>ironically enough, Blair's defense team spent years pointing the finger

532
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:19.920
<v Speaker 2>at Josh Crowley, an alternate suspect who also turned out

533
00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:23.000
<v Speaker 2>to be innocent. Again, I can totally see why people

534
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.319
<v Speaker 2>would believe that Crowley was capable of this crime. He

535
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:29.240
<v Speaker 2>had a previous history of child molestation and had fled

536
00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:32.799
<v Speaker 2>to Texas from South Carolina to avoid those pending charges,

537
00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.400
<v Speaker 2>and unlike Blair, Crowley could definitively be placed in Carpenter

538
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:40.440
<v Speaker 2>Park since he was refereeing the soccer games that day.

539
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:44.559
<v Speaker 2>Crowley was briefly questioned by police during the initial stages

540
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:48.480
<v Speaker 2>of the investigation, prompting him to immediately leave town. But

541
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.480
<v Speaker 2>as suspicious as that look, I'm sure that was due

542
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:53.640
<v Speaker 2>to the fact that he was wanted on other charges

543
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:57.480
<v Speaker 2>in South Carolina. When questioned about his potential involvement in

544
00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:01.240
<v Speaker 2>Ashley's murder, Crowley kept pleading the fil amendment, but when

545
00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:04.000
<v Speaker 2>all was said and done, the DNA evidence did not

546
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:08.079
<v Speaker 2>match him either. Strangely enough, even though Crowley was not

547
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:11.440
<v Speaker 2>involved in Ashley's murder, his very presence in the park

548
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.319
<v Speaker 2>that day was another strong argument for Ashley's laws. Here

549
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:18.039
<v Speaker 2>was a lot to child molester who somehow managed to

550
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:21.720
<v Speaker 2>obtain a job refereeing children soccer games, So that was

551
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:24.799
<v Speaker 2>probably another sign that stronger measures needed to be taken.

552
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.279
<v Speaker 3>It's really really interesting when you look at what sex

553
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:32.680
<v Speaker 3>offenders are able to do what they're able to qualify for,

554
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:35.000
<v Speaker 3>and then some of the things that they're not allowed

555
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:38.079
<v Speaker 3>to do, and some of them just are nonsensical. And

556
00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:40.920
<v Speaker 3>then you think of loopholes and things like this where

557
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.720
<v Speaker 3>you know, like parent teacher conferences. Right, so if a

558
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:47.839
<v Speaker 3>parent's a convicted sex offender and it's a direct event

559
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.720
<v Speaker 3>related to their child, open house, parent teacher conferences, whatever,

560
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:53.519
<v Speaker 3>they can come up to the school for a school

561
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:57.319
<v Speaker 3>event pertaining to their child, Well that is legitimately an

562
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:01.440
<v Speaker 3>event designed around children. And so there's all these very

563
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:05.400
<v Speaker 3>complex and you know nuances, and here you have someone who, oh,

564
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.039
<v Speaker 3>there's a child's soccer game, I'm going to referee the

565
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:12.160
<v Speaker 3>children's soccer games. No hard pass. That should not be allowed.

566
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:15.279
<v Speaker 3>He shouldn't be allowed near the children's park. All of

567
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.039
<v Speaker 3>those things should have disqualified him from that position. But again,

568
00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:21.759
<v Speaker 3>even though he's a dangerous offender, he was not the

569
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.640
<v Speaker 3>one who killed Ashley, and he was one of the

570
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:29.119
<v Speaker 3>suspects that was on the radar. I think them looking

571
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:32.640
<v Speaker 3>at the small list around that area of child sex

572
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.200
<v Speaker 3>offenders only is where they fell short. We said it

573
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:38.640
<v Speaker 3>on the last episode, But what if it was someone

574
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:40.759
<v Speaker 3>not from the area. What if it's someone who had

575
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:43.960
<v Speaker 3>never been convicted or caught for their crimes against children?

576
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:46.240
<v Speaker 3>What if that's why and how they were able to

577
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:48.400
<v Speaker 3>escalate their crimes and get away with it for so

578
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:53.119
<v Speaker 3>long is because they're an established criminal who's never been caught.

579
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:55.440
<v Speaker 4>So that small scope.

580
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:57.720
<v Speaker 3>Yes, there's people that you should look at, But if

581
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:00.599
<v Speaker 3>you only look at convicted sex offenders, what about the

582
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:03.000
<v Speaker 3>ones who have successfully gotten away?

583
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:05.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because there were a thousand people in the park

584
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:07.680
<v Speaker 2>that day, and I do think there's a good chance

585
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:11.279
<v Speaker 2>that besides Crowley, there were probably other sex offenders there,

586
00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:13.720
<v Speaker 2>and some of them probably did not have records at

587
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:16.160
<v Speaker 2>that point and were completely under the radar. So it

588
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:18.119
<v Speaker 2>would not surprise me at all if the same thing

589
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:19.599
<v Speaker 2>applies to Ashley's killer.

590
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.079
<v Speaker 1>It now seems like authorities now leaned towards the real

591
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:27.279
<v Speaker 1>killer being a man known only as suspect number four,

592
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:30.920
<v Speaker 1>But since this person has been deceased for two decades,

593
00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:34.599
<v Speaker 1>they have elected not to publicly disclose his identity without

594
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:39.559
<v Speaker 1>conclusive evidence. I know that following Blair's exoneration, Barry Sheck,

595
00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:42.759
<v Speaker 1>who was quoted as saying that the apparent real perpetrator

596
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:46.519
<v Speaker 1>had no record, though it's unclear if he was specifically

597
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:50.680
<v Speaker 1>referring to Suspect number four. If that's true, then this

598
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.920
<v Speaker 1>man obviously slipped through the cracks. There are definitely some

599
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:58.960
<v Speaker 1>things about him which looks suspicious as hell, particularly how

600
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:01.279
<v Speaker 1>he made sure to get at a burial plot as

601
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:05.039
<v Speaker 1>close as possible to Ashley's grave and fabricated a story

602
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:08.160
<v Speaker 1>about having his own child abducted and murdered in a

603
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:11.680
<v Speaker 1>manner which was disturbingly similar to what happened to Ashley.

604
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:14.920
<v Speaker 1>All that being said, there have been a number of

605
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:18.799
<v Speaker 1>documented cases involving missing and murdered children in which a

606
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:22.039
<v Speaker 1>potential suspect popped up on the radar because they seemed

607
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:24.640
<v Speaker 1>to have a creepy obsession with the crime, but then

608
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:27.720
<v Speaker 1>it later turned out that they had no involvement. You

609
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:30.880
<v Speaker 1>could also apply this same logic to Michael Blair, because

610
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:34.039
<v Speaker 1>the only reason he even got implicated in Ashley's case

611
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:37.039
<v Speaker 1>to begin with was because he kept driving past the

612
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.799
<v Speaker 1>murder scene. So even those Suspect number four seemed to

613
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:44.759
<v Speaker 1>have his own unhealthy obsession with Ashley, that doesn't necessarily

614
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:47.400
<v Speaker 1>mean he killed her, and the physical evidence does not

615
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:49.160
<v Speaker 1>conclusively link him to the crime.

616
00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:52.240
<v Speaker 3>And that's another fact they're tying a lot of these

617
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:55.440
<v Speaker 3>men to they knew Ashley, they went to church with Ashley,

618
00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:59.480
<v Speaker 3>they had a familiarity with Ashley. I don't think that's

619
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:01.839
<v Speaker 3>what happened in this case. I think someone said, Hmm,

620
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:03.640
<v Speaker 3>if I want to take a child, where should I

621
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:07.000
<v Speaker 3>go a very populated area so that I'm not actually

622
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.480
<v Speaker 3>seen or alone with children. There's going to be so

623
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:13.239
<v Speaker 3>many people, no one will be paying attention. I'm going

624
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:15.480
<v Speaker 3>to look for a child who doesn't seem to have

625
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:19.239
<v Speaker 3>any parents close by, or who seems distracted, or who

626
00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:23.800
<v Speaker 3>looks like I don't know my type, and see if

627
00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:26.119
<v Speaker 3>I can get her. I know the child that responds

628
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.360
<v Speaker 3>to me. And so I don't think he knew Ashley.

629
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.880
<v Speaker 3>I think this was a crime of opportunity and something

630
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.440
<v Speaker 3>that happened very quickly, and it was an emo that

631
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.079
<v Speaker 3>he had successfully done many times, and Ashley just so

632
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:38.760
<v Speaker 3>happened to be there and be the right kind of

633
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:39.639
<v Speaker 3>kid that he could take.

634
00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:42.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it might be a thing where I'm going

635
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:43.800
<v Speaker 2>to go to a park where all these kids are,

636
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:45.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to look for one who's alone, not being

637
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:49.360
<v Speaker 2>watched for by any adults. And because Ashley just happened

638
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.440
<v Speaker 2>to be playing on a swing set by herself without

639
00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:54.239
<v Speaker 2>her parents watching her, she became the wrong victim who

640
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:56.000
<v Speaker 2>is in the wrong place at the wrong time.

641
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.519
<v Speaker 1>And it's so scary too to think about the fact

642
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.320
<v Speaker 1>that we know so much about these perpetrators. We think

643
00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:06.400
<v Speaker 1>about like the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit and how they've

644
00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:10.880
<v Speaker 1>studied all of these murderers and serial rapists and child

645
00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:14.880
<v Speaker 1>predators and they found all these different commonalities. But just

646
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:17.400
<v Speaker 1>to think about for a second that we only know

647
00:35:18.199 --> 00:35:21.199
<v Speaker 1>these things about people who were caught, those people that

648
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:24.599
<v Speaker 1>made mistakes. The ones that didn't make mistakes, we don't

649
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:26.079
<v Speaker 1>know anything about.

650
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:29.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it just makes you wonder, is Ashley's killer

651
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:32.320
<v Speaker 2>someone who got away with it indefinitely and was never

652
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:35.079
<v Speaker 2>arrested for any crime because they just kept managing to

653
00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:38.199
<v Speaker 2>get away with it. So the details about the DNA

654
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:41.920
<v Speaker 2>evidence are a bit confusing. It's been stated that suspect

655
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.599
<v Speaker 2>number four was excluded as the source of the DNA

656
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:47.280
<v Speaker 2>on the hairs found on Ashley's body and the skin

657
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:50.320
<v Speaker 2>underneath their fingernails, but could not be excluded as the

658
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:53.760
<v Speaker 2>source of the male DNA found on Ashley's shoes. We

659
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:56.119
<v Speaker 2>can't even be one hundred percent certain if the DNA

660
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.559
<v Speaker 2>on the shoes belonged to the killer, but since it

661
00:35:58.599 --> 00:36:01.840
<v Speaker 2>was not consistent with ashley father or brother, there's a

662
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:06.199
<v Speaker 2>good chance it is the perpetrators. But what's particularly interesting

663
00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:09.239
<v Speaker 2>to me is that DNA profiles for two separate males

664
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:13.159
<v Speaker 2>were apparently found on the skin under Ashley's fingernails. So

665
00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.599
<v Speaker 2>does this mean that multiple people were responsible for Ashley's murder?

666
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:19.800
<v Speaker 2>This is what makes me ponder the possibility that suspect

667
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:22.480
<v Speaker 2>number four was involved in the crime but had an

668
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:26.920
<v Speaker 2>unidentified accomplice who might still be out there somewhere. Of course,

669
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the best case scenario is that suspect number four committed

670
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:32.760
<v Speaker 2>the crime alone. Since he's now deceased and cannot harm

671
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:36.880
<v Speaker 2>anyone else, there's a compelling, circumstantial case against them. But

672
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:40.360
<v Speaker 2>it seems that with the evidence they have available, investigators

673
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.280
<v Speaker 2>just cannot definitively prove or disprove that suspect number four

674
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.599
<v Speaker 2>is connected to the crime. But luckily, as I'm sure

675
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:50.880
<v Speaker 2>you're well aware, the crime fighting technique known as genetic

676
00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:53.599
<v Speaker 2>genealogy has helped close the books on a number of

677
00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:57.440
<v Speaker 2>cold cases these past several years. In some of these cases,

678
00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:01.679
<v Speaker 2>the perpetrator was already dead, but genealogy was able to

679
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:04.159
<v Speaker 2>link them to the crime and prove beyond a shadow

680
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:06.679
<v Speaker 2>of a doubt that they did it. So I think

681
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:10.159
<v Speaker 2>the best chance of achieving closure in Ashley's case would

682
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:12.559
<v Speaker 2>be to upload the DNA evidence they have to a

683
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:16.400
<v Speaker 2>genealogy database and see if it leads to anyone. This

684
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:19.360
<v Speaker 2>could be the best strategy for figuring out whether suspect

685
00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:22.159
<v Speaker 2>number four was involved in this crime, and if there

686
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:23.440
<v Speaker 2>were multiple perpetrators.

687
00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:27.159
<v Speaker 3>Could you imagine if there were two perpetrators and you

688
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:29.559
<v Speaker 3>have a man who walks by and he's like, have

689
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.159
<v Speaker 3>you seen a white dog? And she's like no, And

690
00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:34.119
<v Speaker 3>he says, oh my gosh, can you do me a favor?

691
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:36.480
<v Speaker 3>Can you look in those bushes over there or in

692
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:38.320
<v Speaker 3>the woods right there. I'm going to go over here.

693
00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:40.800
<v Speaker 3>Can you look in the woods there and come back

694
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:42.199
<v Speaker 3>and tell me if you see my white dog?

695
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:43.000
<v Speaker 4>I'm so sad.

696
00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:45.880
<v Speaker 3>And she walks towards where he tells her to walk,

697
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:48.360
<v Speaker 3>and then there's somebody else who's grabbing her and then

698
00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:50.400
<v Speaker 3>they meet up. So I mean it is possible that

699
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:54.079
<v Speaker 3>there's a ruse of two men who are hurting and

700
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:57.639
<v Speaker 3>taking children and each have a different role in the process.

701
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:01.079
<v Speaker 4>It would be amazing if genetic genails. She was used here.

702
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:05.719
<v Speaker 1>And one last thing. Only two and a half years

703
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:09.679
<v Speaker 1>after Ashley's murder, another similar crime took place in Texas,

704
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:13.440
<v Speaker 1>which also led to the passing of new legislation named

705
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:18.199
<v Speaker 1>after the victim. On January thirteenth, nineteen ninety six, nine

706
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:21.360
<v Speaker 1>year old Amber Hagerman was abducted while she was out

707
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:24.800
<v Speaker 1>riding her bicycle, and her murdered body was found four

708
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:28.360
<v Speaker 1>days later. As you probably know, this crime led to

709
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:32.000
<v Speaker 1>the implementation of the Amber Alert program, which as a

710
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:35.159
<v Speaker 1>means of spreading the word about child abductions as quickly

711
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:39.320
<v Speaker 1>as possible. Amber's murder is still unsolved, and while there

712
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.239
<v Speaker 1>is no evidence to link this crime to Ashley's murder,

713
00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:45.199
<v Speaker 1>the fact that it took place in Arlington, just over

714
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:48.840
<v Speaker 1>forty miles away from Plano, has led to speculation that

715
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:53.280
<v Speaker 1>the same perpetrator could have been responsible for killing both girls.

716
00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:57.159
<v Speaker 1>But until these crimes are solved, the possibilities are endless.

717
00:38:57.920 --> 00:38:58.840
<v Speaker 4>It's so sad.

718
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:01.760
<v Speaker 3>That's exactly what we were saying earlier. You have the

719
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:05.400
<v Speaker 3>risk now are these two girls linked? Are there four

720
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:08.920
<v Speaker 3>other girls? Are there ten other girls? How many children

721
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:13.599
<v Speaker 3>were hurt or killed by the person who who killed Ashley?

722
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:17.880
<v Speaker 3>So without knowing the right person, they were given a

723
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:20.840
<v Speaker 3>free pass because Blair was arrested for this crime. It's

724
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:22.840
<v Speaker 3>absolutely heartbreaking.

725
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:26.599
<v Speaker 2>If by chance, Ashley Estelle and Amber Hagerman's killer are

726
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:29.760
<v Speaker 2>the same person. Amber's murder took place after Blair had

727
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:32.280
<v Speaker 2>already been convicted and sent to death Rose, So I'm

728
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:35.559
<v Speaker 2>sure the perpetrator felt more enabled thinking that they got

729
00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:37.880
<v Speaker 2>away with it once, so they'll have no problems getting

730
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.639
<v Speaker 2>away with it again. So if you have been to

731
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:43.920
<v Speaker 2>have any information about the unsolved murder of Ashley Estelle,

732
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:48.719
<v Speaker 2>please contact the appropriate authorities. Jules Ashley any final thoughts

733
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:49.320
<v Speaker 2>on this case.

734
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.440
<v Speaker 3>It's heartbreaking when you think about the grief in this case,

735
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:59.840
<v Speaker 3>and it's not just isolated to the horrific horror that

736
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:04.239
<v Speaker 3>family experienced. Think about the grief of your child being

737
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:10.360
<v Speaker 3>hurt by someone and then murdered, the unfair guilt that

738
00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:12.960
<v Speaker 3>that family placed on themselves because they were at this

739
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:17.400
<v Speaker 3>public facility, The way friends and family felt when they said, hey,

740
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:20.280
<v Speaker 3>we were there, what if we missed something right, But

741
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:23.920
<v Speaker 3>then this feeling that we're getting justice for her, we're

742
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:27.519
<v Speaker 3>getting at least accountability for the person who killed her,

743
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:29.599
<v Speaker 3>and feeling that we're going to go through all the

744
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:33.440
<v Speaker 3>horror of a trial. Hear these horrific details, get this

745
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:35.679
<v Speaker 3>man put behind bars, and you step back and you

746
00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:36.719
<v Speaker 3>start to say, now we have to.

747
00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:37.360
<v Speaker 4>Fight to heal.

748
00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:41.440
<v Speaker 3>And then you find out it wasn't him, and so

749
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:44.760
<v Speaker 3>that kind of you know, the how the world is

750
00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:47.599
<v Speaker 3>unfair and doesn't work and the justice system failed you,

751
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:50.360
<v Speaker 3>and the fear of how many other little girls could

752
00:40:50.360 --> 00:40:51.679
<v Speaker 3>have been hurt and who did it?

753
00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:54.119
<v Speaker 4>All of those things add to.

754
00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:56.840
<v Speaker 3>The weight of grief on the family, on the friends,

755
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:59.559
<v Speaker 3>on the community. And then again, like we said, we

756
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.400
<v Speaker 3>don't know, oh how far reaching the implications are here,

757
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:06.559
<v Speaker 3>because because the right killer knew I got away with it,

758
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:10.440
<v Speaker 3>I have a successful MO and this probably wasn't the

759
00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:13.039
<v Speaker 3>first time he heard a child that he continued to

760
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:16.599
<v Speaker 3>likely offend after that. And so my gut turns when

761
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:19.119
<v Speaker 3>I think of a case like this where someone thought

762
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:21.840
<v Speaker 3>I got away with it. I wonder who else I

763
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:25.639
<v Speaker 3>could hurt And it's horrifying. My heart breaks for everyone

764
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:28.239
<v Speaker 3>involved and for the community as a whole as well.

765
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Not having that resolution and not knowing who the real

766
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:38.039
<v Speaker 1>killer is and if this suspect number four is indeed involved,

767
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:41.199
<v Speaker 1>and not having that conclusive evidence, it just leaves that

768
00:41:41.320 --> 00:41:45.440
<v Speaker 1>gaping hole where some kind of closure or resolution should be,

769
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:48.519
<v Speaker 1>not closure, because we talked about that so often that

770
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:52.480
<v Speaker 1>it truly really isn't such thing as closure. But what

771
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:56.239
<v Speaker 1>I find really striking here is just this idea that

772
00:41:56.360 --> 00:42:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Blair was driving past where Ashley's house was. He had

773
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.559
<v Speaker 1>a flyer about her disappearance. And it makes me think

774
00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:07.639
<v Speaker 1>how many other cases that are like this, where you've

775
00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:13.039
<v Speaker 1>got either serial murderers or rapists, child predators, and they're

776
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:17.119
<v Speaker 1>studying the work of others that are like them, maybe

777
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.199
<v Speaker 1>to gain inside and information, maybe they get off on

778
00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:24.079
<v Speaker 1>it on some level. And how many other cases have

779
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:27.400
<v Speaker 1>they been implicated Like we'd mentioned earlier about the Orange

780
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:32.239
<v Speaker 1>Socks slash Deborah Jackson case where Henry Lee Lucas had

781
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:35.800
<v Speaker 1>admitted to that. And it's really interesting to think that

782
00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:38.519
<v Speaker 1>there could be and also horrifying to think that there

783
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:40.840
<v Speaker 1>could be all of these cases out there where you

784
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.320
<v Speaker 1>have the wrong person incarcerated on the real killer or

785
00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:50.239
<v Speaker 1>child abductor or rapist got away with it because the

786
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 1>person that was maybe having some evidence to do with it,

787
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:56.880
<v Speaker 1>or not direct evidence, it would be maybe circumstantial things

788
00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:59.519
<v Speaker 1>like a flyer, they were just a fan, or they

789
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:01.320
<v Speaker 1>were just a admiring that work, and they were a

790
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:04.519
<v Speaker 1>bad person, kind of like Blair is here. It just

791
00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:07.400
<v Speaker 1>feels like so much time was wasted because of that,

792
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:09.519
<v Speaker 1>and we are at a different place as far as

793
00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:13.920
<v Speaker 1>forensic evidence goes today, so I would truly hope that

794
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:17.440
<v Speaker 1>that wouldn't happen in present, But the details of this

795
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:19.679
<v Speaker 1>case were just really mind boggling.

796
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:22.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I remember when I was looking for cases for

797
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:25.119
<v Speaker 2>us to discuss and I was thinking, we haven't done

798
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:27.679
<v Speaker 2>a wrongful conviction case in a while. What's a unique

799
00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:30.360
<v Speaker 2>one that we can discuss with Ashley? And this one

800
00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:32.679
<v Speaker 2>is stowed out from the others because we have one

801
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:36.599
<v Speaker 2>where someone was convicted and sent to death row for

802
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:39.880
<v Speaker 2>a horrific murder who is undeniably a bad person who

803
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:43.880
<v Speaker 2>has committed some other horrific crimes, but was conclusively proven

804
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:47.159
<v Speaker 2>innocent of this particular crime. And it's just kind of

805
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:49.760
<v Speaker 2>a story where just so many things went horribly wrong,

806
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:53.159
<v Speaker 2>where even though you can kind of understand why a

807
00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:56.480
<v Speaker 2>jury would convict Blair, because if you look at his background,

808
00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:59.280
<v Speaker 2>you look at the suspicious things he did, you can

809
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:02.320
<v Speaker 2>understand why so many people legitimately believed that he was

810
00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:05.000
<v Speaker 2>the real killer. Yet at the same time, he kind

811
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.119
<v Speaker 2>of started this mess because he was the one who

812
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:10.840
<v Speaker 2>drew the police's attention by driving by Ashley's murder scenes

813
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:14.599
<v Speaker 2>several times and acting very strangely. And of course he

814
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:18.119
<v Speaker 2>was convicted on evidence that we now know as junct science.

815
00:44:18.199 --> 00:44:21.320
<v Speaker 2>But I think that the people in power did legitimately

816
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:23.320
<v Speaker 2>think they were doing the right thing at the time

817
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:25.800
<v Speaker 2>and that they had found the right guy. And of

818
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:28.519
<v Speaker 2>course it also put this whole state of Texas and

819
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:32.320
<v Speaker 2>their board of Pardons and Paroles under scrutiny, because, no

820
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:35.320
<v Speaker 2>matter what you think of his involvement in this particular crime,

821
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:37.800
<v Speaker 2>he got off as easy. He should have served at

822
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.800
<v Speaker 2>least ten years in jail for attempting to abduct and

823
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:43.920
<v Speaker 2>sexually assault and eleven year old girl, but he was

824
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.760
<v Speaker 2>released after only serving eighteen months. So that was another

825
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:50.960
<v Speaker 2>outrage because he was put in a position to harm

826
00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:54.199
<v Speaker 2>other children, even though we never should have. So all

827
00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:57.599
<v Speaker 2>these years later, they have found other potential suspects, like

828
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:01.679
<v Speaker 2>suspect number four, who could be the real killer of Ashley,

829
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:04.159
<v Speaker 2>but they've just never been able to conclusively prove it

830
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:08.000
<v Speaker 2>because they don't have that one piece of definitive forensic evidence.

831
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:11.400
<v Speaker 2>But then you just realize that, well, if this crime

832
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:14.000
<v Speaker 2>had happened today, I think Blair would be cleared as

833
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:18.239
<v Speaker 2>a suspect very quickly because DNA testing has advanced so much,

834
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:20.119
<v Speaker 2>and that they would be able to perform a proper

835
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:25.000
<v Speaker 2>investigation and potentially find the real perpetrator. But unfortunately, because

836
00:45:25.079 --> 00:45:27.679
<v Speaker 2>over thirty years have passed, we still don't know who

837
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.559
<v Speaker 2>is responsible. But I do hope that one of these

838
00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:34.320
<v Speaker 2>days they do perform genetic genealogy, put the offenders DNA

839
00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:37.599
<v Speaker 2>into a database, and then maybe make a conclusive match

840
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:40.000
<v Speaker 2>and figure out who did this. And even if this

841
00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:43.960
<v Speaker 2>person like Suspect number four, has already passed away, at

842
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.519
<v Speaker 2>least they can say with one hundred percent certainty who

843
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:49.159
<v Speaker 2>the killer was and finally close the books on this

844
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<v Speaker 2>one for good.

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<v Speaker 5>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

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<v Speaker 5>about the Trailment cold patreon.

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00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.079
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the trail Cold patreon has been around for three

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<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer the standard bonus features like

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<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

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00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:07.239
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

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00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:09.800
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

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00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:13.960
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

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00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.159
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

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<v Speaker 2>the Trail went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to

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00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:23.119
<v Speaker 2>Patreon and if you join our highest tier tier three,

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00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:25.960
<v Speaker 2>the ten dollar tier. One of the features we offer

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00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:30.639
<v Speaker 2>is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaved Mysteries,

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00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:33.840
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

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00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:37.159
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

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00:46:37.159 --> 00:46:40.559
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

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00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:43.719
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

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00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:47.159
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

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00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:50.039
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

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00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:52.840
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

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<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

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00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:58.639
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

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<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

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<v Speaker 5>So I go to let you know a little bit

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<v Speaker 5>about the Jules and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

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00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:07.039
<v Speaker 5>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

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00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:10.079
<v Speaker 5>Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so

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00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:12.239
<v Speaker 5>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

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<v Speaker 5>turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

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00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:17.800
<v Speaker 5>so we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link

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<v Speaker 5>them in the show notes.

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<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

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00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:23.800
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

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00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:26.159
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly

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00:47:26.199 --> 00:47:28.960
<v Speaker 2>appreciate it. You can email us at The Pathwentchili at

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<v Speaker 2>gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at

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00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:34.599
<v Speaker 2>the Pathwin. So until next time, be sure to bundle

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00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:37.760
<v Speaker 2>up because cold trails and chili pass Call for warm

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00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:38.159
<v Speaker 2>clothing

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<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy