WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.359 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show, 2 00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:08.519 continuing the Cold War series with Thomas seven seven seven. 3 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:11.400 How are you doing, Thomas, I'm well, thank you man. 4 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:18.399 Today I wanted to get in the get them as 5 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:21.559 a somewhat difficult topic to address, I mean, not for 6 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:25.000 the usual reasons people bandy that, but because there's so 7 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:27.239 many misconceptions both on the left and the right and 8 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:29.760 the kind of the sensible center I'm talking about historians, 9 00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:31.480 I mean, and there's still a lot of people still 10 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:35.039 have a lot of strong feelings about it. Be that. 11 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:39.079 Be that as it may. There's a basic lack of understanding, 12 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:41.240 even among a lot of revisionists of the kind of 13 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:45.240 broader political context of the war world in strategic terms 14 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:48.000 and in ideological ones. And what I think of is 15 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:52.359 apocal terms. I think people who watch our content, they've 16 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:56.240 they they've kind of become habituated to some of my 17 00:00:55.679 --> 00:01:00.240 my vocabulary. When I talk about apocal events, you know, 18 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:02.240 I'm not just trying to draw up on high falutin 19 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:04.400 language or or trying to create my own kind of 20 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:08.239 you know, revisionist esperanto. I can't think of a better 21 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:11.400 way to describe what I'm talking about. And that's a 22 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.879 rough translation of a phenomenon that Ernst and Olti describes, 23 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:19.040 you know, and it basically the way to understand it 24 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:23.239 is kind of practical zeitgeist, you know. But that's I 25 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:26.640 just wanted to kind of can clarify that. And you know, 26 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.480 as I've talked about before, much as much as they 27 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:34.760 esteem guys like Meerscheimer, they're kind of locked. They're kind 28 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:37.840 of boxed in to the kind of like the clouds 29 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:42.280 of wits he in conceptual UH cube as it were. 30 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:46.040 You know, like a guy like meher Scheimer. If if 31 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:50.120 one wants to understand UH predicted in terms of predictive modeling, 32 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:52.959 I think there's nobody better than him. And like, for example, 33 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:54.760 like in the run of the ninety one Gulf War, 34 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:59.000 nobody UH modeled the outcome of that conflict with more 35 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.799 accuracy than he, and in fact, most people were totally 36 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:07.159 off base. He's a clouset Witzian thinker through and through 37 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:13.360 and ways both praiseworthy as well as uh not so praiseworthy. 38 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:19.759 But he's so fixated on on on conceptual modeling and 39 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:23.120 unidentifying like concrete variables that can be insinuated into that 40 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:28.719 sort of modeling that he he really misses apocal uh 41 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:34.240 like variables of apocal significance. Okay, nowhere is that more 42 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:37.400 clear than in his discussion of the Vietnam War. Mershamer 43 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:40.360 is one of these guys uh on the political right, 44 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.039 like at the time and subsequent you know, he was 45 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:48.680 constantly he was constantly making issuing the assertion that Indo 46 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:53.719 China was was was strategically without value. You know, He's 47 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:57.000 got this idea that the global north you know, uh, 48 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:04.840 Western Europe, uh, you know, the United States in Canada, Japan, uh, 49 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:08.080 Korea and some of the some of the Upper Pacific 50 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:10.759 rim that that's you know, in the in the Middle East, 51 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:16.319 that's basically that's basically geostrategic terms, that was the only 52 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:18.919 that's the location of the only stakes worth fighting for. 53 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:22.560 But that's not what people go to war anymore, okay. 54 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:27.800 And in fact, uh states going to war over over 55 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:31.960 commodities or over you know, to dominate trade routes and 56 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.199 sea lanes. That's really that that really reflects kind of 57 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:41.800 a narrow uh like like like a narrow kind of 58 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:46.400 kind of narrow piece of the modern era. You know, 59 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.599 we're in, uh that kind of power, political competition, you know, 60 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:54.360 translated very much to the concrete the need to capture 61 00:03:54.400 --> 00:04:00.879 sort of concrete resources. You know. So, uh, it didn't 62 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:03.919 It didn't matter that Vietnam, the Vietnam War happened in Vietnam. 63 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:06.240 You know, if it had happened in Nicaragua, if it 64 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:09.840 had happened and you know, if it had happened in 65 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:13.000 in Greece, if it had happened uh in uh in 66 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.680 Borneo like it would, it would not have mattered. You know. 67 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:21.399 That's that that's where the communists pushed. That's where politics 68 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.920 kind of conspired and intrigued, you know, for for for 69 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:28.839 great powers to to to come together in hostile terms. 70 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.720 And that's where America staked U the line in the sand. 71 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.079 So it didn't matter, all right, this is where communism fought, 72 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:41.199 you know, the uh, the American led opposition. You know 73 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.360 what what what what that's self identified as the free world, 74 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:46.639 and that's what people like, that's what people in the right, 75 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:51.920 miss Okay. I think people on the left in contrast, 76 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:54.439 you know what they teach college kids, you know, bullshit 77 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:58.600 propagated by people like Chomsky or by people like Coward's 78 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:00.920 in where they claimed that like of Vietnam War, which 79 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:04.720 is you know, the Pentagon like murder machine profiting. That's 80 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:09.120 not really true. I mean the the there there was 81 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:11.399 a kind of the logic of the body count did 82 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:18.439 become kind of uh uh a instead of into itself. 83 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:20.879 And that's perverse in all kinds of ways, but that's 84 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:22.759 kind of the case and in modern war in the 85 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:26.120 twentieth century. And I I'm getting into that in the 86 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.560 manuscript and right right now about Nuremberg because about half 87 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.040 of it gets into the twentieth century generally. And yeah, 88 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:34.959 there was you know, there was all and anytime there's 89 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.439 anytimes a general war on it and and Vietnam was 90 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:40.680 a general war. Okay, you had a draft uh uh 91 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:45.399 you know, you had real casualties. You know, America was 92 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:49.920 mobilized anyway one to the situation in Europe and the 93 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:56.600 ongoing uh the ongoing strategic challenge presented by the Warsaw Pact. 94 00:05:57.240 --> 00:05:59.680 But I mean anytime and anytime you're dealing with the 95 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:03.920 general war situation or conditions, uh you know, with with 96 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:06.600 on that spectrum, there's gonna be there's gonna be people 97 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:11.720 and and agents and uh and and and companies that 98 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:14.360 profit from that, okay, but that's not that's not that's 99 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:18.240 not the incentive, Okay, Like you know, uh, America didn't. 100 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:21.720 America didn't kill three million people and and and and 101 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:25.879 lose a sixty thousand of their own, you know, and 102 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:29.000 eventually like impose like a decade long recession on itself 103 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:31.600 just so that it could like sell helicopters to the Pentagon, 104 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:34.720 you know, or so that Cold could you know, manufacture 105 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:37.319 the armor lite and everybody makes money from you know, 106 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:40.839 outfitting the US Army with the ship that it needs. 107 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:43.439 Like that's that that's just a very basic view of 108 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:49.920 things and that's not that's not reality. And uh something 109 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:51.439 I have to other people too, And it's hard to 110 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:54.160 be able to put themselves in in this kind of 111 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:59.000 conceptual mindset because you know, the Cold Wars like receiving 112 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.000 like out of living memory. But there was real stakes 113 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.160 the warfare in the twentieth century. I mean, that's not 114 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:08.279 to say there weren't reckless decisions made. And that's not 115 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:12.240 to say that during the Cold War, you know, men 116 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:14.480 in the Pentagon and command roles and in the Department 117 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:18.480 of State didn't intriguing and inspire, you know, to go 118 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:23.399 to war when it wasn't absolutely the you know, essential 119 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:27.160 course of action, but this was taken very seriously because 120 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:29.720 there was real consequences. But also you had a real 121 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:34.319 cod reepublic intellectuals shaping defense policy, you know, and you 122 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:36.040 really did a lot of the best in the brightest 123 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:38.439 putting their minds to the waging of warfare. You know, 124 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:42.959 on the technical side, at Los Alamos would be the 125 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:45.680 zenith of that, you know, and people quite literally developing, 126 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:51.040 you know, more and more effective nuclear weapons. But you know, 127 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:53.399 you had you hat like I mean the point of 128 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:56.120 people a lot. If this was nineteen seventy or nineteen eighty, 129 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.360 a guy like Elon Musk could be working on SDI. 130 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:01.759 You know, you'd have guys who are going to work 131 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:04.000 on Wall Street now was quants. You know, they'd be 132 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.519 working for the Pentagon or the Department of State, where 133 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:08.639 they'd be working, uh for these n g O s 134 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:10.879 you know, to figure out how to uh how to 135 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:13.839 wage World War three. You know you didn't, you didn't 136 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:16.199 just have these idiots and these uh these lose these 137 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:20.720 like losers, uh like like like Pete Botagig, where the 138 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.240 fuck his name is? You know, these other these other 139 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:25.959 freaks that you know, you've had in uh Washington since 140 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:29.600 nineteen ninety three, you know, just kind of just kind 141 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:32.240 of deciding that, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna generally 142 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:35.039 deploy in some theater for no particular reason. I mean 143 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.519 that that did not happen in the Cold War because 144 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.440 it couldn't happen, and it just wouldn't have It would 145 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:41.440 have been like unthinkable, you know, the degree to which 146 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:46.360 there's a paradigm shift in uh, in the public mind, 147 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:48.840 it can't be over emphasized. But what I want to 148 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:51.759 get into today, I want to get into the the 149 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:55.519 political background of Vietnam and why it became such a 150 00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:58.799 critical theater. And the next episode, like I said before 151 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:01.840 went live, you know, we'll we'll get into the battlefield 152 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:04.879 situation because that's an important topic. It's not just I mean, 153 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:06.840 I'm not a military guy, and I mean it's not 154 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:11.159 really my wheelhouse, but I do know something about military 155 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:15.559 science topics in a very like abstract sense. I mean, 156 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:18.159 obviously I don't I don't have experience like like grunt 157 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:20.120 stew or something, and I would not purport to, but 158 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:24.480 the but they kind of competing, Uh, I want to 159 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.000 get into West Morelands Creighton Abrams and they're kind of 160 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:29.200 tactical orientation. I want to know a guy named John 161 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:32.840 Paul Van and David Hackworth, you know, both of whom 162 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:40.120 had uh had a profound the ideas that they contributed 163 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:43.159 to an asymmetrical warfare. And uh, you know, I want 164 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.240 to get into why the US Army really really couldn't 165 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:49.200 adapt itself. It started, I think out the Army because 166 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:51.240 Franks and the Marine Corps as well as the Air Force, 167 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:53.639 like they did adapt free well. And the Air Force 168 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:55.960 is the case. It's pretty remarkable because the Air Force 169 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.039 was totally purposed to essentially like drop nuclear ordinance on 170 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:01.960 the warsaw pack that they time and the and the 171 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:06.440 you know, to to repurpose their aircraft, you know, for 172 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:11.440 essentially you know, uh like like like fire support, you know, 173 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:19.799 and a conventional bombing role. That remark. But today we're 174 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:22.919 gonna we're gonna talk about politics, which isn't as sexy 175 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:25.480 as ah as a battlefield kind of stuff, but uh, 176 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:28.639 it's essential to understanding it. And in the case of Vietnam, 177 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:30.559 I think I think it's I think it's uh, I 178 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:34.279 think it's paramount or the military side of things, the 179 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:39.080 seeds of the end of China wars uh, which uh, 180 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.039 I mean really we we could say that it goes 181 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.600 it's you know, things come as in nineteen thirty one, 182 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:48.720 I mean when when the Jamis Imperial Army assaulted China. 183 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:53.480 But for our purposes, what's conventiond what's conventionally viewed as 184 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:56.080 the Indo China Wars is you know the French UH, 185 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.879 the French war against the Vietnam that kicked off I forty. 186 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:05.559 You know, there was the storied defeat that dym been fu. 187 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:08.679 You know, the Forid legion got you know, surrounded and annihilated, 188 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:12.559 you know, and then the American War, which traditionally is 189 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.120 viewed as commencing in sixty five because that's when there 190 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:18.919 was the mass conventional build up, you know, he was 191 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:21.840 involvement ended in seventy three. Saigon fell in seventy five. 192 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:28.639 I'd include uh, I'd include the uh the Khmer Rouge 193 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:33.720 conquest of Cambodia within that same like conceptual paradigm too, 194 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.320 as well as the nineteen seventy nine war that Vietnam 195 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:38.919 foughtings the people's the public of China, which is fascinating, 196 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:44.080 and that the latter event informs a strategic landscape today 197 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:47.799 in profound ways. I find it fascinating but actually sensible, 198 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.240 and I attribute this to Robert Gates also, who was 199 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:57.519 a rare like sensible man and in UH in in 200 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:01.480 power and policy corridors, you know, post ninety three. But 201 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:09.360 he UH Obama, like in my opinion, owing to Gates's tutelage, 202 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:14.799 UH lifted remaining restrictions on arm sales to UH the 203 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:20.000 People's Republic of Vietnam very obviously, you know, employee Vietnam 204 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:22.440 is a military hedge against the People's Republic in China, 205 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.039 which is very smart. Honestly. That's that, that's it jumped 206 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:29.080 out of me because it was one of the few, uh, 207 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:30.960 one of the one of the few part of political 208 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:33.759 moves and not only made sense, like rational sense, but 209 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:38.000 actually was was was strategically sound and you'd never really 210 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:41.200 see you as government engage in anything sensible anymore. But 211 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.919 en though China, you know, uh, it really it really 212 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.559 was kind of the jewel of Southeast Asia. You know, 213 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:52.440 there's a reason why the French hung onto it. And 214 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:55.039 it wasn't just prestige and clout the way they did. 215 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.320 You know, Vietnam was not just this backwater. It's a 216 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:03.919 comparatively huge country, you know, very large population, and it 217 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:10.399 was it was a cosmopolitan place, okay, and in geostrategic terms, 218 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:14.919 like I said again, that wasn't paramount. But uh, the 219 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:17.960 French indo China, according to guys who spent a lot 220 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:21.200 of time, spent a lot of time with geopolitics, you know, 221 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:25.320 beginning in really in the nineteenth century, like on Crimean War. Actual, yeah, 222 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:30.000 probably around like eighteen twelve, they final Napoleonic era, as 223 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:34.200 is that kind of closed out, and Europeans started thinking 224 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:36.799 a lot about about the the you know, the then 225 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:43.039 contemporary battlefield. People generally associated into China with the kind 226 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.000 of the eastern third of the mainland of South East Asia, okay, 227 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:49.279 and they viewed it as essential in that regard. Like 228 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:51.799 I'm you know, not just as like a hedge against 229 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:55.720 the you know, powers emerging within the interior. But uh, 230 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.559 you know, there's it's it's you know, it's got it's 231 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:06.320 got cxs obviously, you know, on this extensive coast, you know, 232 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:09.639 things like that. So it's Americans tend to be kind 233 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:13.120 of geo strategically illiterate, and they Mosto got the time 234 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:17.279 to dismissed everywhere some backwater and that's that's particularly as 235 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:20.159 guiding as at Vietnam. Like, yeah, Vietnam was largely backwards 236 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.480 in ninety sixty five, but most of this planet was 237 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:26.600 backwards in ninety sixty five. And those places that weren't, 238 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:28.159 like a lot of them were still like in ruins 239 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.159 because twenty years before, like you know, the world the 240 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:33.639 gone to hell in a hand basket, and you know 241 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.600 in uh there were some places, including in Europe, mostly 242 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:39.960 behind the wall, but not exclusively that I mean, it 243 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:43.120 was still like until the eighties, like you know, there 244 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.000 was visible like battle damage from you know, combat at 245 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:52.159 forty years previously. So that's something to keep in mind. Uh, 246 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:59.399 the uh Ho Chi Minh himself was uh, well actually 247 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:05.519 the melu that Ho Chi Minh came out of. Uh. 248 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:08.799 The Vietnamese were looking for an identity in peculiar ways, 249 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:15.080 and Vietnam is a complex society. It wasn't like North Korean. 250 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:18.399 There's something I don't know if people know the history 251 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:21.480 particularly well, it's strange. But you know Kim Il Sung, 252 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:25.399 you know who, uh who who became Stellin's protege. He 253 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.559 was one of the Soviet Koreans. You know, part part 254 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:32.919 of Stalin's uh you know issue with the nationalities was 255 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:38.799 you know, not just you know, genocidal uh programs against 256 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:41.320 people that he considered to be you know, politically unreliable, 257 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:45.679 but also trying to assimulate populations that he considered to 258 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:47.879 be useful, like in the kind of the Soviet sphere 259 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:51.120 of influence in his Soviet life, well, the Koreans and 260 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.320 the Soviet Far East he considered to be one of 261 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:58.360 these populations. And Kim Il sung really had no interest 262 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:01.720 or under in or norns of communism. And if you 263 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:04.279 look in North Korea to day, like they you know, 264 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.240 it's it's this kind of like prestiche of like nineteen 265 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.919 fifty Stalinism and and and kind of cargo cult uh 266 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:17.759 uh in military dictatorship the type of the nineteen eighties 267 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:18.240 or something. 268 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.919 It's also an hereditary it's a hereditary dictatorship, which yeah, exactly. 269 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:28.120 I think Stalin had told them you can't, you can't 270 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.240 do that, and they're like, screw you, You're just gonna. 271 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.440 Do what we want. Yeah exactly. But it's but people 272 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:36.840 have this like people tend the sentence you like transposed 273 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:40.399 that that those kinds of tendencies to places like Vietnam, 274 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:43.320 which is very very misguided and like among other things. 275 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.639 I'm sure some people are gonna claim that this is 276 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:47.960 me being like a chauvinistic white man or whatever. I mean. 277 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:53.200 Obviously I don't care. But I I colonize peoples, they 278 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:56.360 tend to take on their characteristics of their colonizers, okay, 279 00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:02.039 and the French are very sophisticated people. Okay. Now I'm 280 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:04.799 not saying that the Vietnamese, otherwise it'd be stupid or something. 281 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.960 I've I find the Vs actually be very interesting. That's 282 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.519 why this people, I mean included. Vietnam features heavily in 283 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:16.960 my fiction, as people will see when the second book drops. 284 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:22.160 But you know, so Vietnam, like any place, whether it's 285 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:26.640 Algeria or Vietnam or anywhere or Morocco, that was you know, 286 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:29.000 colonized by the French. It was it was not gonna 287 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:31.880 it was not gonna be some backwater like North Korea. Okay, 288 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.119 I mean regardless, even if what the German would called 289 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:38.599 the mentioned material was was not particularly I'm trying to 290 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.240 be delegate here, it was not particularly capable of human 291 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:46.920 stock okay, but the Vietnamese, you know, they're uh there, 292 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.720 there are relatively creative people. And Uh Ho Chiman himself, 293 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:57.279 he was the son of a Confucian scholar, and he 294 00:17:57.319 --> 00:17:59.839 was a mysterious guy. His birth year is generally accepted 295 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.839 as eighteen ninety, but that's that's never been verified conclusively. 296 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:08.200 A lot of sources, both within Vietnam and without like 297 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:14.680 claim other years. His father, his family like lived in 298 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:17.079 Central Vietnam, which was kind of like a hub of 299 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:20.680 culture as well as political activity, and this endured through 300 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:25.640 like the American War in Vietnam. But it owing to 301 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:30.079 his dad, is going to his father's prestige, you know 302 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.000 that just asn't not just as an intellectual, but he 303 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:34.640 was this he was a kind of like he was 304 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:41.720 an imperial magistrate like the Uh after when Vietnam became 305 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:46.400 technically an empire, like after the Japanese deposed like the 306 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:50.400 French in nineteen forty five. This is before the war ended. 307 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:55.119 It was the VC regime and Uh and Uh the 308 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:59.519 thirteenth Emperor of Vietnam who who stepped out who advocated 309 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:01.960 ninety fifty five, but because it may there was an 310 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:05.920 imperial court and Ho Chiman's father. Uh, he was. He 311 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:08.000 was like this. He was like one half like top 312 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.799 one half judge kind of and he was demoted because 313 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.519 uh for for abuse of power after some influential local 314 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:20.240 hot show was uh what was availed to summary punishment 315 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:24.000 in in Hoe's father's core, and he was sentenced to 316 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:27.880 something crazy like one hundred lashes uh with with a cane, 317 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:28.839 you know. 318 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:29.200 Uh? 319 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:33.440 Any and the guy died, Okay, So that so o 320 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.759 Chimn's dad was. I mean this he was something. I mean, 321 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:38.759 he loomed larger to say the least, and he was 322 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:41.759 he was basically a judge and an intellectual and a 323 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.720 confusion and a judge, intellectual and a priest kind of. 324 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.839 I mean, Confucianism is kind of confusing of the Western mind, 325 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.559 including mine own. But you know, this was not Hochman 326 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.319 was not some guy peasant stock like quite the contrary. 327 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.839 Ho Chiman did kind of rewrite his biography as communists 328 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.240 all kind of did, and I mean, to be fair 329 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:09.519 partisans all do that to some degree. Even Cromwell did that. 330 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.119 He claimed. Ho Chiman claimed that he was radicalized in 331 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.519 nineteen oh eight when because he was, he was sent 332 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:21.519 to Hoais city to study, okay, and he said he 333 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:25.839 came across this demonstration of these poor peasants who were 334 00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:28.839 bound in this kind of peculiar form of serfdom that 335 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:33.559 existed in South East Asia. I can't remember what the 336 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:35.799 French word is for it, but it was it was basically, 337 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:37.920 uh like like think of a think of a serf 338 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:40.839 who's bound in the land and who's not compensated for 339 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.160 his labor, but he's like, you know, paying rent on 340 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:46.599 his occupation of the land which he can't leave. This 341 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:50.720 was a big deal in Vietnam especially, and there was this, 342 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.400 there was this there was this demonstration that that the 343 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:57.680 Imperial Court cracked down on violently and uh, you know, 344 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:01.240 uh the social justice type of the day, including a 345 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:04.799 lot of Catholics because uh you know obviously you know, 346 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:10.240 Catholic missioners reactive in into China owing to the French regime, 347 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.920 but as well as well it's kind of the the 348 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:16.480 socialist International. This was like a big deal and whole 349 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:18.559 claimed like, well, this is when I realized, like I 350 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:20.519 was a communist, Okay, I mean, well that's true or not, 351 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:25.119 who knows. But he was mired in a revolutionary environment 352 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.720 owing to the fact, uh owing to his family's downura 353 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:32.119 mobility and no small measure because of the scandal of 354 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.480 his father and and this uh, this caning victim who died. 355 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.440 Ho realized that he wasn't going to be able to 356 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.160 he wasn't gonna be able to get a job, uh, 357 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.640 you know, with with with with this with the Imperial court. 358 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:49.319 And he said he refused to uh to try and 359 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:54.319 work uh you know as in the in the colonial administration, 360 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:56.720 because he refused to serve the French. And that's probably true. 361 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:00.440 So what he did do was he applied to work 362 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:02.880 on a French merchant ship when he got from when 363 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:07.279 he when he got to Saigon and UH in nineteen eleven, 364 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.559 UH he traveled first to France and then he ended 365 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.119 up in Dunkirk. He got back and forth between the 366 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:17.880 UK and Marseille UH for a few years, and then 367 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:21.519 from nineteen thirteen to nineteen nineteen he was in London. 368 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.359 It's disputed by some these days, but there's actually a 369 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:29.240 plaque in the New Zealand House in London, you know, 370 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:31.759 which is which houses literally you know, like the New 371 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:35.039 Zealander diplomatic mission that said that like ho Chi men 372 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:37.440 worked here is like some kind of pastry chef. Okay, 373 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:41.119 so I mean he was moving in pretty elite circles. 374 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:43.920 You know. I'llbeit in in a in a kind of 375 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:45.960 in a in a kind of meal role. But I 376 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:48.680 mean he was a young guy, so it wasn't something 377 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.400 that would have been seen as improper for a guy 378 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:54.440 his station, and he wouldn't just be viewed as like 379 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.799 a kolie, you know, because he was I mean he 380 00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:59.759 was even he was very young, Okay, even though he 381 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.759 you know, he was a teenager in the early twenties. 382 00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.119 I mean, even though we don't know his precise birthday, 383 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:12.960 I mean that much, it's clear. In nineteen nineteen he 384 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:19.960 returned to France in part because of a French socialist 385 00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:24.480 named Marcel Kasheen. I'm sure we're during that pronunciation as 386 00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:29.519 they often do. Excuse me. He was an activist and 387 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:34.559 the Socialist Party of France. What Kasheen essentially convinced Hoe 388 00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:39.119 of was he said, look, you know the uh, the 389 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:44.240 Versailles uh, the Versailles Summit, this is our chance to 390 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:48.119 approach the light leaders, you know about freedom for for 391 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:51.319 Indo China, you know, because now they'll be receptive, you know, 392 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:55.960 not owing to any particular uh, you know, interest in 393 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:00.440 our cause, but because uh, you know, something is gonna 394 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:04.319 have to something, something's gonna have to you know, replace 395 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:06.519 the imperial regime, and like even they have to see that, 396 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.480 you know. And part of this, part of this was 397 00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:14.079 kind of rigid Marxist uh, you know, thinking deterministic, rather 398 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:16.920 thinking like you know this this is you know, like 399 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.480 reading the proverbial signs, you know, like like an auger 400 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.759 Wood like obviously this is you know, a crucial moment 401 00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:24.839 and in the advance of history, you know, we we've 402 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:28.519 got to get the attention to these men because capitalists, 403 00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.119 though they are, you know, oppressors as they though they are, 404 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.599 you know, they're they're nonetheless you know that they're then 405 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.200 that they're none the less serving the cause of history 406 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:39.920 as a whole men are you know? I mean this 407 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.640 is already clear to people who kind of understand uh, 408 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:48.640 Marxist ontology such that it could be said to exist. 409 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:53.759 Ultimate subsequently claim that what drove Droom to Paris initially 410 00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:57.480 was that he'd uh was that he he joined the 411 00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:01.599 group of Vietnamese patriots. Uh. That's when it translated to 412 00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:08.400 the I again, I can't I can't pronounce the French moniker. 413 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.680 But it was this group that coalesced in Paris, Uh. 414 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:19.160 You know, most clear uh uh with the university environs. 415 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:21.960 But they all they did have some power within the 416 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:25.880 syndic within within the cynicalist unions that had and there 417 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.920 was a number of Asian workers like who were present 418 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.920 on the ground. I mean obviously because you know, the 419 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:35.039 French Empire was always UH was always was always hungry 420 00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:39.400 for menial labors, medial laborers from the outer dominions. But 421 00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:45.079 this this particular faction, it included UH, basically the guys 422 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:47.559 who became kind of like the core of the Vietnamese 423 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:55.599 nationalist movement, okay, including UH Fanshoo trend Fan Van Trong. 424 00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:59.319 These native probably don't mean anything to anybody today, but 425 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:05.359 they they were in the inter warriors and into UH 426 00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:09.200 into the French Indo China War. Uh. These guys constituted 427 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:13.640 in early cadre of of a of the political leadership 428 00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:21.160 cast resisting UH, resisting French UH control political and military. 429 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:24.160 So I mean these were like heavy, These were heavy people, okay, 430 00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:28.359 And I mean undoubtedly Hoe was able to finangle that 431 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:30.359 like owing to his background. You know, I mean he 432 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.759 downplayed his privilege and everything like that, but he I 433 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:36.119 mean he was a guy who was I mean again 434 00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:42.240 he his father was, Ah was Uh. It was a 435 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.559 very esteemed individual as well as owing to Hoe's Confusion education, 436 00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:48.519 you know, he would have had to be he would 437 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:50.839 have had to have mastered a colloquial Vietnamese in a 438 00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:53.640 way that most people just would not. You know, he 439 00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:56.880 developed attitude in French. You know, he knew Chinese letters 440 00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:00.720 because you had due to study confusion texts, you know. 441 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.119 I mean he was he was very very well situated 442 00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:08.279 to take to you know, to to make contact with 443 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:16.720 revolutionary cadres, particularly in UH, particularly in uh In in 444 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:22.519 UH Interwar H France. But UH and Ho Uh and 445 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:26.759 his UH, his comrades, they actually they formally sent their 446 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.400 letter to UH to the Allied delegation, you know, Clement 447 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:35.519 sau Woodrow Wilson. They weren't able to obtain any consideration. 448 00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:40.279 But what it did do was it I I attribute 449 00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:43.079 this the fact that Hoe was very he was comfortable 450 00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:45.240 with Westerners, He was familiar with them as well as 451 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:51.160 his his French was was was beyond competent. It was 452 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:56.000 probably not absolutely fluent, but it was far more so 453 00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:00.920 than you know, your average your average Oriental at that 454 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:03.599 time that you know you'd run into in Europe. Ho 455 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:06.240 chiet Man became identified as the leader of the anti 456 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:10.359 colonial movement in Vietnam, for better or worse. And we've 457 00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:16.079 discussed in the course of our you know, of our discussions, 458 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.160 and I made the point myself for Pate and my 459 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.480 pod in my lawn form a lot of what role 460 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.559 any man becomes insinuated into, regardless of his aptitude or ambition. 461 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.720 I'm talking politically, particularly a revolutionary. If people decide that 462 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:34.519 you know you are the leader, well then you are 463 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:39.359 in some real sense, okay, And this uh the Versailles 464 00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:44.640 delegation identifying how even though they effectively snubbed him, the 465 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:46.759 fact that they identified him as the leader of the 466 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:50.960 Vietnamese resistance, I'd say that that's what launched his career 467 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:54.720 as a as a professional revolutionary. 468 00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:59.599 Is there is there any evidence of like who he 469 00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.680 was re thing, who he was most inspired inspired by. 470 00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:11.079 That's a good question, I speculate. Despite the fact, and 471 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.359 this is gonna seem strange, particularly because most people you 472 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.079 know who are familiar with the French left uh, not 473 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:19.920 just younger people, I mean even people mind's a little 474 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.319 bit older. They be the French Left as kind of 475 00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:26.640 the driving force behind the sixty eight ers, and uh, 476 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:30.599 the kind of break with the Warsaw Pact and uh, 477 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:32.799 you know, the kind of you know, the New Left 478 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.799 was literally founded by Foucot et least in In in 479 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:42.079 academ However, in uh, the Inner War yors, particularly at 480 00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:46.519 the time of Versailles, the French, the French Communists were 481 00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:52.759 very very orthodox Marxist Lentinis. They they very much believed 482 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:57.880 in the common turn. Uh and it's orthodoxy, probably even 483 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.599 more so than anybody, probably even more so than the Germans, 484 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:04.480 because there was uh, you know, one of the reasons 485 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:07.440 why the so you know, the seed not the KPD 486 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:12.480 begin the ruling party in East Germany was because the 487 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:15.880 Social Democrats and and the Marcus Leninist could never come 488 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.839 to the table. France did not really have that problem. Yes, 489 00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:21.559 France was, Uh, I'm gonna say France was a house 490 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:24.160 divided quickly. I mean would be a gross center statement. 491 00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.640 But the French Communist, for whatever reason, they I owe 492 00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:31.839 it to I owe this phenomenon to very strong cadre building. 493 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:38.440 They were very very much united. And uh, I would speculate, 494 00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:40.400 and again I would I'd have to deep dive into it, 495 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:42.079 and it would be very hard, I think. I mean, 496 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:43.559 it could be done, but it would take time to 497 00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:47.039 kind of tease out real data on what the primary 498 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.680 sources were. But whether we're talking about Paul Pott or 499 00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:54.680 Ho Chi minh or Japp who uh who o Chi 500 00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:57.799 minh Uh had met at Huay when he was a 501 00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:01.559 student there, all these guys either owing to the fact 502 00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:03.759 that they were in France or you know, owing to 503 00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:08.839 the French influence upon their cadre structure, like in Indo, China. 504 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:11.799 They they they'd be reading Marx and Lenin, you know, 505 00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:14.759 and they and they they then and they'd be reading 506 00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:17.839 you know, they they'd be reading Hegel and they you know, 507 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.079 they would have become familiar with the Aristotle and and 508 00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:23.000 and and they would have become and and and and 509 00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.920 Thomas Paine and Lock. But they but they, they like 510 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.160 Marx and Lenin would be there, you know, their Bible 511 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:33.039 as it were. But yeah, that's a great question, and 512 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.160 that's kind of a fascinating subject, especially like again, you know, 513 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:41.359 like we just mentioned uh, it's uh like like amaging 514 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:43.720 the French left is kind of like the standard bearer 515 00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:46.799 of you know, rigid orthodoxy is is kind of hilarious. 516 00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:49.960 But I mean that's that's that's that's the way it was. 517 00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:58.759 Excuse me, they, uh, this is actually what gives ryans 518 00:31:58.759 --> 00:32:01.359 to the myth. I don't know, I don't know how 519 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:03.880 much this is bandied about by court historians these days, 520 00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:09.720 because frankly, don't read a lot of court history on uh, 521 00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:12.680 on either World War One or on the Cold War, 522 00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:15.440 I mean anymore. I mean I do for like, for 523 00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:18.440 dedicated purposes, like in my writing and research, you know, 524 00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:20.960 like if I say like, okay, well, you know, I 525 00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:25.839 like refresh my recollection with what, you know, with what 526 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:27.599 kind of like the mainstream historians of the day, and 527 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:29.839 we're saying about let's say, like the French War in Algeria, 528 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:32.079 you know, and then you know, so not not just 529 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:33.720 for the sake like teeing off on the AD, but 530 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.119 just kind of you know, get a sense of what 531 00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:39.160 people take for granted in terms of kind of the 532 00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:41.599 not not just not just the key events that they 533 00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:47.440 identify as as being essential understanding the conflict, but also 534 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:49.720 kind of like you know, what what sort of values 535 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:53.960 are insinuated into the narrative, you know, and and hind 536 00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:59.839 and deliberatet hindsight. But when I was uh, like when 537 00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:02.400 I'm when I was high school age, if you read 538 00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:05.480 like a college textbook or like if you took like, 539 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:08.680 you know, uh an international relations class in your high school, 540 00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:12.119 it's say that oh you see, you know, in nineteen nineteen, 541 00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:14.720 there was this Wilsonian moment where you know, Ho Chi 542 00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:17.839 minh he could have adopted a pro American stance if 543 00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:20.319 only Wilson had paid attention to him. But you know, 544 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:24.200 because because you know, these like mean weight men were 545 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.559 just like being mean and racist, like this didn't happen. 546 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.359 Like I think that that's nonsense for all kinds of reasons. 547 00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:30.920 I mean, first of all, it's it's like kind of 548 00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:37.319 sending him fucking stupid, but also it really kind of 549 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.079 sells people like Ho tiam In short, Ho Hiaman wasn't 550 00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:42.480 there to be a koolie and like gravel for you know, 551 00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:48.279 token concessions. He uh he he he basically said, he 552 00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:53.240 basically penned this document and owen to his uh and 553 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:56.000 on end to the influence of kind of his French 554 00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:01.759 patrons who were experienced revolutionaries. They seem to think that 555 00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:06.640 Wilson would recognize Wilson and Clements so would recognize they 556 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:08.760 didn't know China was going to be a significant potential 557 00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.920 battle theater. Okay, there was nothing friendly about this communication, 558 00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:14.639 you know. And then this idea that everybody if you 559 00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:16.719 if if you give HOCHI meant a coke and a 560 00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:19.119 Snickers bar or Hershey, aren't get him on the head, 561 00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:21.320 he'll like, you know, give you a buck tooth grin 562 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.119 and say I love g I Joe Coca Cola. Like 563 00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:26.880 that's way more quote unquote racist than anything in Wilson's mind. 564 00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:33.320 This brings us to I realize I'm jumping around a lot, 565 00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:36.079 but I as we get into this further, like I 566 00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:39.760 think I shall be redeemed because people will understand. And 567 00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:41.400 I want to get out of the way now to 568 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:43.480 reference a lot of these things as we get into 569 00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:46.800 kind of the hard and fast, uh strategic analysis of 570 00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:49.079 the conflict, and I don't want to have to keep 571 00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:51.159 jumping back and saying, well, this is what this was. 572 00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:57.480 People talk all the time about how Vietnam was like 573 00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:00.719 this grave kind of failure of collective security and why 574 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:05.039 do they say that, Well, they said because of Cito Scato, 575 00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.960 Like what was Cito to Ito is the Southeast Asian 576 00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:11.320 Treaty organization. And if you think it sounds a lot 577 00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:14.159 like NATO, you'd be right, because that's what that's what, 578 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.639 That's what his whole notion was was created by the 579 00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:21.119 Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty also known as the Manila Pack, 580 00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:23.760 that was signed in September nineteen fifty four. And you 581 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:28.519 guessed at Manila, the Philippines. Now who who's the driving 582 00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:32.280 force behind CITO? It was a Vice President Nixon who, 583 00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:35.800 upon returning from Asia ninety three said, look, we need 584 00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:40.159 some kind of collective security arrangement in Asia that you know, 585 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:45.639 tantamount to NATO. There was far more confidential conflict diets 586 00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:50.159 in Asia. The strategic landscape was a lot more fluid. 587 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:55.119 But and Nixon realized that. But at the same time 588 00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:56.840 he said that, you know, one of the reason it's 589 00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:02.239 impossible to h you know, develop a meaningful, uh kind 590 00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:05.559 of strategic posture moving forward is because it's uncertain like 591 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:08.480 what any what if anything, you know, anyone's willing to 592 00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:11.480 commit and what what they're willing to stand on as 593 00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:17.480 you know, essential interests, and uh, this creates a credibility problem. 594 00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:21.800 George Kennon also was very much behind this idea, if 595 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.199 not CITO itself, he said, there's got to be some 596 00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:28.079 kind of collective security structure of a formal nature. Now, 597 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:30.559 I make this point a lot as people for a 598 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:35.480 few reasons. People act like NATO is this magical thing 599 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:40.199 that uh, I mean obviously like anybody who claims NATO 600 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.760 actually still exists as a fucking moron. But UH also 601 00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:49.079 subsident does exist. It's profoundly destabilizing. But we don't know 602 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:53.639 if NATO was uh, what was effective or not. What 603 00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:56.360 we do know is that there was basic credibility behind it, 604 00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:00.920 and UH, the Soviet Union considered America, you know, represent 605 00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:05.760 a credible threat, you know if uh if uh if 606 00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:09.199 the primary conflict DIAD in Europe was triggered, you know, 607 00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:12.639 which was obviously the inner German border. But at the 608 00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:17.679 same time, UH, America periodically had to meet Soviet efforts 609 00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:23.840 to decopple UH. European collective security from American strategic interests 610 00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:28.519 was one reason why America maintained intermediate nuclear forces in Europe. 611 00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.119 That's another question, and well that's a complicated issue. We'll 612 00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:35.719 get into that. But my point is that it's not 613 00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:42.039 treaties themselves that that that promotes stability. It's the it's 614 00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:46.280 it's it's the willingness of the signatories, you know, in 615 00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:49.000 order to UH. It's a willingness the signatories. I say 616 00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:51.599 it was credibility. They're in Okay, and this should be obvious. 617 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:55.960 Where the signatories two seats though, it was Australia, France, 618 00:37:56.119 --> 00:38:01.280 New Zealand, the Philippines, Thailand, the United Kingdom and the USA. Okay, 619 00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:05.679 I might add this out of those signatories, Australia, New 620 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:07.760 Zealand cave show up to showed up the fight the 621 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.880 Vietnam War. Okay. France had just fought the vietnamn UH 622 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:17.760 for eight years and been defeated. Thailand was definitely a 623 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:20.159 combatant in the Vietnam War. If for no if I 624 00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:22.239 mean they this was very much below board in terms 625 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:26.920 of special operations forces were very effective, but Thailand unconditionally 626 00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:31.199 availed UH, their their bases and their airspace to do 627 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.719 anything that the Allies needed. The UK UH, the the 628 00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:43.119 UK just UH. This caused great consternation. Anthony Eden profoundly offended. 629 00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:47.480 H U S Department of State of the Era and 630 00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:52.679 UH by essentially making it clear UH that that the 631 00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:55.760 UK would not commit any kind of collective security arrangements 632 00:38:55.880 --> 00:39:00.599 as regards the no China. Why they put pen to 633 00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:03.960 paper on the middle of pact, that's another question that's 634 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.800 kind of complicated. It ordered the kind of the weasel 635 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:12.159 wards inherent to UH. To diplomats, I think I'm not. 636 00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:16.320 I don't know if I'm gonna hatred of of of 637 00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:20.039 I don't know if I'm gonna hatred of diplomats in 638 00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:24.519 an of themselves. But there is a there's a kind 639 00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:27.440 of a lawyer ball they play about, you know, qualifying 640 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:32.440 their willingness to hottern treaty obligations and UH. In the 641 00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:36.760 case of the UK UH deciding on with Seito, it 642 00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:38.519 had a lot to do with the claims of well, 643 00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:40.960 this is this is a quote defensive alliance, I mean, 644 00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:44.119 which is meaningless and more in peace. As Carl Smith taughtus, 645 00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:47.239 there's another thing as an offensive or defensive war. All 646 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:50.039 wars both offensive and defensive. But that's a bit upside 647 00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:55.719 the scope. Any event, it was cedy was headquartered in 648 00:39:55.880 --> 00:40:06.079 uh In in Bangkok, Thailand. Incidentally, two and again Dulles, Uh, 649 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:09.840 John Foster Dallas was one hundred percent behind it. Two. 650 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:12.559 In fact, he could be viewed as kind of the 651 00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:18.239 primary architect, like I said Nixon. Nixon was was convinced 652 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:24.280 a formal club of security arrangement was necessary, modeled roughly 653 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:27.079 on NATO. Dulles was the one who pushed for CIDO 654 00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:29.639 as the answer to that. And it was Dulles who 655 00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:36.000 who who uh who was profoundly offended by Eaden's anyone 656 00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:38.559 to commit what is interesting? And it goes to U 657 00:40:38.599 --> 00:40:41.400 two that like the quote special relationship between the United 658 00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:43.079 States and the UK, I mean there were people in 659 00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:45.559 the UK who had fake realize the UK lost World 660 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:48.519 War Two, and Eatan's a complicated figure. And a year 661 00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:51.159 later in ninety fifty five, like Eden mcame Prime Minister. 662 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:55.480 But that's he's he's one of the more interesting post 663 00:40:55.719 --> 00:41:00.280 war uh British executives I think. But yeah, as it 664 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:03.400 may like he he made it clear that the UK 665 00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:06.039 was was was was gonna sit out anything that happened 666 00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:09.480 in in in Southeast Asia. And it's an interesting question, 667 00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:14.280 you know, I mean the obviously neither Eden nor anybody 668 00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:18.679 else wasn't kind of augur. But you know, war literally 669 00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:23.360 came to the UK's doorstep, uh in Northern Ireland and 670 00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:30.480 uh there revisional IRA's efforts were very much perceived as 671 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:34.159 as as part of the anti colonial movement. Okay, I mean, 672 00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:35.320 I don't want to I don't want to start some 673 00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:38.280 big controversy with people. I'm not sitting here saying that 674 00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.559 Canadians were a bunch of communists or something like that, Okay, 675 00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:45.880 but it point being everything else aside, even if even if, 676 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:48.760 even if it's been some kind of hawkish uh like 677 00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:54.800 proto Thatcher type at Downing Street, I don't the situation 678 00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:57.360 that actually developed in the UK in the sixties. I 679 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:00.800 don't think they were in a position to be they'll 680 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:04.519 be fighting some general war against against you know, North 681 00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:08.360 Vietnam and you know, halfway across the planet. But isn't 682 00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:19.800 ans counterfactual? The uh, the background of what the what 683 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:29.400 immediately gave rise Desito From April twenty sixth until July twentieth, 684 00:42:29.480 --> 00:42:32.840 nineteen fifty four. Uh, there's a Geneva conference in the 685 00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:35.920 Status of Indo China, Like why was this convened? Well, 686 00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:39.800 the French uh had you know, had just taken a 687 00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:45.159 defeat by the VIETNMM at the end been Fu, uh, 688 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:49.400 which I would say was other than Singapore, you know 689 00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:51.840 where the where the Jamons and Pupil army just just 690 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:56.960 like smashed the United Kingdom. That Singapore is the most 691 00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:01.719 devastating defeat every levied to a white Westerner by a 692 00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:08.519 uh a arising a rising non Western state them ben 693 00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:11.800 Fu was the second, okay, Uh. The psychological impact on 694 00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:15.199 this was devastating, and the Vietnam showed that they were 695 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:18.239 a marshall race. Okay. They man handled artillery up the 696 00:43:18.280 --> 00:43:22.800 mountain side and and bombarded the French positions. You know. 697 00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:29.039 The uh, the the Vietnamese of a genuine they've got 698 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.480 a genuine aptitude for war. We'll get into that as 699 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:33.440 in the next episode, as we get into the kind 700 00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:40.239 of battlefield realities of the war. But that aside the 701 00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:45.559 characteristics of the Vats themselves, aside. You know, France, Uh, 702 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.199 France was a real military power in those days. Okay too. 703 00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:53.559 They weren't slouches, you know, and they weren't uh, they 704 00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:55.760 weren't you know, the France nineteen fifty four wasn't the 705 00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:58.480 France to today. You know, these this wasn't some half 706 00:43:58.519 --> 00:44:02.119 assed army of a of mercenaries or something either. I mean, 707 00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:04.360 it was the French Foreign Legion, you know, and these 708 00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:11.440 were crack troops, you know, highly motivated, arguably uh arguably 709 00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:14.039 the best equipped the army on the planet at that point. 710 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.320 You know, it kind of was confortable you know the 711 00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:19.320 United States. Uh, it was coin of the year. They 712 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:21.360 it was connerable with the United States was fighting with Korea, 713 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:27.119 you know, after after a mobilization kicked off in earnest, 714 00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:31.639 but uh, becase it may uh there's need of a conference. 715 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:34.519 Uh and the statisment of China. Half of it was 716 00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:37.039 it was it was purpose. Half of it was purpose 717 00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:42.000 to deal with issues resolving from the Korean War, you know, 718 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:45.960 and the UH and then the armistice, and and half 719 00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:48.920 was the kind of resolve the French you know, China situation, 720 00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:52.000 which is the recipe for as to begin with. Okay, 721 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.719 like you don't take that approach the you know, just 722 00:44:55.719 --> 00:44:57.639 say yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna we're gonna knock out 723 00:44:57.639 --> 00:44:59.800 two birds of one stone with this like great conference 724 00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:02.920 and you know, we're just gonna figure out you know, 725 00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:05.320 the based the whole status of Asia by you know, 726 00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:09.440 putting the right you know, put it put putting, you know, 727 00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:12.760 putting the right putting the right paperwork together. I mean, 728 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:19.800 all the things ridiculous. UH. The delegation, the delegations UH 729 00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:24.079 represented on the status of Korea. It was the Soviet Union, 730 00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:26.760 Peoples of Public in China, North and South Korea, and 731 00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:30.360 the U s A and the Indo China side of UH. 732 00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:35.639 The of the UH at the conference was France, UH. 733 00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:38.280 The Vietnam although a non state actor, you know, they 734 00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:42.199 had a formal representation UH, the U s s R, 735 00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:46.519 the U s A, the People's Republic in China, the 736 00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:53.920 UK and UH, the nascent, the UH, the maybe not 737 00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:59.039 maybe the believer I should say, like UH success or 738 00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:05.599 government in Vietnam to UH? What UH? What had been 739 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:09.960 the Beshy regime that was deposed by Japan, which says 740 00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:11.880 I indicated at the start of this conversation at the 741 00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:15.039 start of this talk only had a year to remain. 742 00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:17.840 In nine to fifty five, there was the there's a 743 00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:23.000 referendum in the emperor stepped down and Bao Dai was 744 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:27.880 the emperor to be replaced by DM. What was the 745 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:29.920 status of Vietnam? And I am a be four. Well, 746 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:33.400 there was two regimes of Vietnam. There's a Democratic Republic 747 00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:37.880 of Vietnam led by the Communist Workers Party UH, and 748 00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:43.559 the State of Vietnam, again by Emperor Bao Dai. The 749 00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:47.000 Democratic Republic of Vietnam was strongest in the north and 750 00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:49.280 in the center of the country, but had some followers 751 00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:51.519 in the south as well. So basically what you're talking 752 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:54.880 about is you're talking about a country that's uh almost 753 00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:57.639 it's a political map of it looks almost like leopard 754 00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:02.679 spots at this point. It's okay, and UH the UH, 755 00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:07.000 the seat of soerity that's claimed by the emperor is 756 00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:12.159 is really a sovereign in name only, Okay. At the 757 00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:17.159 time of the French defeat, sixty five thousand documented members 758 00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:20.599 the Workers Party lived south of the seventeenth Parallel, which 759 00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:24.559 is what became the divider between North and South Vietnam. 760 00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:27.840 In the me calling Delta region alone, which is UH 761 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:31.760 in in in northern South Vietnam, so I mean a 762 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:36.159 key strategic piece of real estate, there was thirty thousand 763 00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:41.039 party members concentrated. In addition, there was one hundred thousands 764 00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:43.400 others in the south whore you know, sympathized with the 765 00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:46.559 Vietnam or who were you know, just uh, you know, 766 00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:54.039 card carrying communists of varying stripes. In short, the UH, 767 00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:59.960 the the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, which whose sole representative 768 00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:06.440 was the Communists. They could claim membership throughout the entire country, okay, 769 00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:13.400 the the formal state of Vietnam led by the emperor. 770 00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:18.519 Part of the problem with this was UH was part 771 00:48:18.519 --> 00:48:21.360 of the problem with characteristic of those resisting the communists 772 00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:28.119 UH movement globally, you're looking at a house divided. You know, 773 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:33.400 the war had World War two, had had destroyed the 774 00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:35.360 right for all time, there was no there was no 775 00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:40.119 real political right anymore. Okay, there's reactionary elements, you know 776 00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:42.800 who backs people like Emperor Bao Dai. You know, in 777 00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:45.920 various monarchists. You know, there was people who didn't really 778 00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:50.239 have a political consciousness, but they you know, they they 779 00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:53.400 were hostile to Communists for self interested reasons. You know, 780 00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:58.000 there wasn't there wasn't theresign really corralling these people. You know, like, 781 00:48:58.039 --> 00:49:00.960 you can't build a movement, particularly when you're facing off 782 00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:04.760 against dedicated cadres. You can't just build. You can't just 783 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:08.320 build a political You can't just you can't build a 784 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:12.199 political army based on opposition to something, you know what 785 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:15.599 I mean? That was that more Nowhere is that more 786 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:18.840 evident than Vietnam. And I think that I can't really 787 00:49:18.840 --> 00:49:25.280 be overstated because the the Vietnamese who resisted the Communists 788 00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:27.519 really do get kind of a bum rap. You know, 789 00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:32.239 they're either they're rather casts as cowards or or just 790 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:35.440 you know, uh, you know, these kind of these kind 791 00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:40.239 of third world uh kleptomaniacs or or just uh, you know, 792 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:45.280 pitiable kind of uh Lackey's and Koli's Like that's not 793 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:47.559 the case at all. I mean, they were a mixed bag, 794 00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:53.000 but there were they they had disadvantages from Jump and 795 00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.599 the people who should have been looking out for their 796 00:49:55.679 --> 00:50:00.039 interests most aggressively we're not doing so I think on 797 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.360 on the military side, I think I think they were 798 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.679 the uh there was uh, there's plenty of American commanders 799 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:10.039 in South Korea. South Korea really came to fight in 800 00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:13.719 the Vietnam War. They deployed there their forces around fifty 801 00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:16.400 thousand men for countries as a Korea, it's a major deployment. 802 00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:20.480 But on the military side, you had some very game, 803 00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:24.360 uh commanders who very much wanted, you know, to give 804 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:29.159 the the South enemies what they needed to win and 805 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:33.639 uh and and led these guys into combat very briefly. 806 00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:38.159 And these guys performed well with with honor. But uh, 807 00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:44.119 on the political side, you know, it's like what what's what? 808 00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:45.360 What what do you have in South? What do you 809 00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:47.639 have and what became South Vietnam. It's like, okay, you 810 00:50:47.719 --> 00:50:50.239 got you got a cadre of like kind of upper 811 00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:52.280 league mobile or Kodrie kind of like upper lya mobile 812 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:56.760 Catholic types, which the French were still here. You know, 813 00:50:56.840 --> 00:50:59.559 you got you you got, you got guys are basically 814 00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:01.559 small business man who don't like the Communis to take 815 00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:04.239 their stuff. You know. Uh, you got the Buddhists. We're 816 00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:07.159 kind of like put upon by everybody. You know. You 817 00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:10.280 got various minorities like a montag Yard Zone Sundry who 818 00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:13.559 you know, realize their numbers up if the Communists win. 819 00:51:14.199 --> 00:51:16.960 But I mean there's I know, it probably sounds like 820 00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:21.039 I'm somebody who's like totally fixated. I'm owing to you 821 00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:25.119 know kind of the the central emphasis of my research 822 00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:28.760 being Nuremberg and and kind of the political theoretical trajectory 823 00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:33.400 of things. Subsequent but imarious problems in the Cold War 824 00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:35.559 really can be chalked up with the fact that, you know, 825 00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:38.119 it's like, well, you know, if you're waging waging a 826 00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:41.079 war of excrimination against the political right, like it's not 827 00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:44.760 that that doesn't you're you're not living all hubble lot 828 00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:48.119 when you're trying to draw up on your own cadres 829 00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:53.599 to defeat the communists. And in Vietnam. Uh, that's a 830 00:51:53.719 --> 00:51:58.639 topic that's not particularly emphasized, but I uh, I think 831 00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:01.880 it's more important than in some theaters like legit. 832 00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:06.000 I I it uh. 833 00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:09.000 And as we'll get into like later in the series, 834 00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:14.360 America learned this lesson in part by the final phase 835 00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:17.159 of the Cold War, and that's one of the reasons 836 00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:23.079 why the the that the conference are so effective in 837 00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:29.159 places like Nicaragua, where honestly, the the Santin Eastern regime, 838 00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:32.159 the story has probably invested more in that regime than 839 00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:36.320 any other sense. Uh tens the Vietnam era. I mean, 840 00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:38.679 it's as a client regime outside their media scare of influence. 841 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:40.000 I mean, but. 842 00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:52.920 In any event, uh, the the the uh. 843 00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:58.920 There's ne EVA conference basically all all it. All it 844 00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:05.480 did was formed wise. It it formalized the division that 845 00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:09.880 was already burgening. You know even in the even before 846 00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:12.559 the French had been it had been defeated at them Benfu. 847 00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:15.960 But what it did was it created this kind of 848 00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:20.760 arbitrary dividing line to create kind of the fiction that 849 00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:23.559 you know, there was there was two sovereign states here 850 00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:26.199 that were at war and like that was never that 851 00:53:26.280 --> 00:53:28.440 was never the case. I mean, the Vietnam War was 852 00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:31.280 a civil war. I mean it's not me. There's not 853 00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:34.960 me having sympathy for the devil or or or you know, 854 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:40.599 trying to simplify the political strategic situation. A civil wars. 855 00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:44.719 One seems to be a civil war because great powers, 856 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:48.079 you know, converge, uh and and and and draw like 857 00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:50.599 an imaginary line on the center of the country. That's 858 00:53:50.679 --> 00:53:56.639 quite literally what happened. The fact, uh, the fact that 859 00:53:56.719 --> 00:54:00.119 you had you know, we'll get into this too. You know, 860 00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:03.079 North Vietnam was a crack army. It was an incredibly 861 00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:07.679 game for US as well as like a truly conventional army. 862 00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:09.880 This idea that Vietnam is just kind of like weird 863 00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:14.599 guerrilla war, like that's bullshit. Yeah, there's aspects of asymmetrical war, 864 00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:19.400 particularly in the Mekong Delta and particularly early on. Make 865 00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:23.559 no mistake, the reason why Vietnam was so bloody and 866 00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:26.880 so brutal is because it was a conventional war where 867 00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:33.440 firepower carried the day. The North Vietnamese UH the only 868 00:54:33.519 --> 00:54:36.639 way that uh, the only way that they could accomplish 869 00:54:36.679 --> 00:54:39.320 their political objectives was through a conventional military victory. And 870 00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:45.000 they knew that. This is one of the reasons why 871 00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:51.559 America deployed so heavily. The way that they did was 872 00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:55.400 that misguided uh not in and of itself. But we're 873 00:54:55.400 --> 00:54:58.519 gonna get into why that didn't produce the results that 874 00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:04.599 it had to. But this is a This is also 875 00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:09.119 another example of how this you know, whether or not 876 00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:12.320 we accept the kind of whether or not we accept 877 00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:18.639 the quote democracy is utilized at present and even during 878 00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:21.360 the Cold War when it actually had, you know, some 879 00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:24.639 kind of identifiable meaning, even if it was only like 880 00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:30.079 contra marcist Leninism. I returned to kind of the Schmidtian 881 00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:34.320 notion that it doesn't do you any good at war 882 00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:37.280 to have this kind of ongoing discussion in policy terms, 883 00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:39.840 because even if people are doing some in good faith, 884 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:42.280 which they never are, because this becomes another means of 885 00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:47.440 exploiting divisions within the electorate for some sort of competitive advantage. 886 00:55:48.320 --> 00:55:52.920 But even if that were not the case, you know 887 00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:56.920 that you don't you don't endlessly debate military questions as 888 00:55:56.960 --> 00:56:02.039 if they're you know, ordinary policy matters. And the fact 889 00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:06.360 that that's what a general war became led to some 890 00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:10.320 really perverse outcomes, both on the battlefield and in terms 891 00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:14.159 of what came to be considered a success in political terms. 892 00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:19.679 And I think Vietnam was a rare situation where the 893 00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:29.519 political and the military was questions were basically synonymous, and 894 00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:33.760 Depentagon on some level recognize that, but the way they 895 00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:36.360 preceded in actual policy terms, whereas if these were two 896 00:56:36.440 --> 00:56:42.119 discreet things that had success metrics independent of one another, 897 00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:44.880 if that makes any sense other than the more more 898 00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:48.360 of what I mean in the next episode when some 899 00:56:48.559 --> 00:56:53.880 concrete examples emerged as to how this phenomenon played out. 900 00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:57.480 But ultimately, and I'm gonna wrap this up in a minute, 901 00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:02.199 what need of a court led to was this fiction 902 00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:07.199 of two Vietnams, okay, and it created a pathway, or 903 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:15.280 at least a roadmap to uh unification that was supposed 904 00:57:15.320 --> 00:57:20.199 to obviate any potential crisis of authority, but it UH, 905 00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:25.239 it was contingent upon it. It was, it was, it was, 906 00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:29.440 It was contingent upon in plain language, you know, both 907 00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:35.400 purported sovereign governments advocating any use of ourn force in 908 00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:40.960 order to affect a political outcome and dominate UH the 909 00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:46.960 future state by way of a single party regime. And obviously, 910 00:57:48.360 --> 00:57:52.239 you know, the Hanoi government always claimed that the Vietcong 911 00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:56.000 or the National Liberation Front was was was independent of 912 00:57:56.719 --> 00:57:59.960 of of their authority. It was the spontaneous up art. 913 00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:04.159 There was some shoot to that, but obviously Hanoi cadres 914 00:58:04.239 --> 00:58:10.559 were operationally insinuated into the NLF. The Saygi regime always 915 00:58:10.599 --> 00:58:13.960 maintained that, you know, the NLF was nothing but UH 916 00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:16.920 a direct client of Hanoi, and that so long as 917 00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:22.280 it existed, it constituted a terrorist threat to the UH, 918 00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:25.559 to the universe, to the unification process, and so none 919 00:58:25.559 --> 00:58:28.079 of the terms that Geneva agreement had to be honored. 920 00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:31.920 So I mean that this this outcome was entirely predictable, okay, 921 00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:36.559 I mean, there's there's basically no way that there's basically 922 00:58:36.559 --> 00:58:39.199 no way that any other, any other outcome would have 923 00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:43.320 been emerging. But that's that's why the kind of political 924 00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:48.639 UH foundation was so murky and and kind of unworkable, 925 00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:52.239 you know it. And I also got to show you that, 926 00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:55.000 you know, make this point a lot there's I generally 927 00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:57.679 don't engage people because it's it's just like bad fait 928 00:58:57.719 --> 00:59:00.400 the bullshit. But people don't know what they're talking talking about, 929 00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:02.199 like those who look, you know, they love the baby 930 00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:05.599 about colonialism and how bid this was. It's like, okay, 931 00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:07.719 so you really what I just described here, Like you 932 00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:10.280 really think that's superior to having like the French administering 933 00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:13.960 Vietnam like I I mean, like in what way, shape 934 00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:18.920 or form? You know? And you could say that, well, 935 00:59:18.960 --> 00:59:22.159 that was just another example of you know, white Westerns 936 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:25.320 imposing this paradigm like it really wasn't man. I mean, 937 00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:28.159 the reason why it was so dysfunctional in Fubar is 938 00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:30.400 because you did have that. You did have Beijing like 939 00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:33.400 having their say, you did Moscow having their say, and 940 00:59:33.920 --> 00:59:36.960 obviously you know, in having their say, they were deliberately 941 00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:41.320 sabotaging their proceedings and creating conditions we're in, you know, 942 00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:47.000 UH A cadre based movement, could you know, effectively sabotage 943 00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:49.719 any government that immerged in the South. But you can't. 944 00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:53.440 You can't. You can't just you can't just shut down 945 00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:55.480 a conversation by saying, oh, that's just like something the 946 00:59:55.519 --> 00:59:57.920 white man imposed, I didn't know China, you know. So 947 00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:02.480 it's everybody's always people act like this kind of you know, 948 01:00:02.800 --> 01:00:05.519 people act like the nineteenth century regime that endured really 949 01:00:05.599 --> 01:00:11.519 till nineteen nineteen ninety twenty, you know, like you know, Britain, France, Germany, 950 01:00:12.039 --> 01:00:18.079 you know, dividing up the world. Uh, in these in 951 01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:20.559 these key theaters, Like was this like a bold situation? 952 01:00:20.679 --> 01:00:22.360 It's like, well, what's your alternative? They're like they never 953 01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:25.719 they never have one. You know. It's like this idea 954 01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:27.440 like the world's kind of exists in sits you and 955 01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:29.960 like it's it's like a place of plenty in peace, 956 01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:32.599 but then people screwed up just but like imposing politics 957 01:00:32.679 --> 01:00:35.440 upon it. It's like I think ontologically, like I think people, 958 01:00:35.480 --> 01:00:37.760 it's like don't like a lot of people and people 959 01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:40.159 are particularly dumb. They just like can't grasp like the 960 01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:43.199 ontological reality of politics. I mean, I don't know, but 961 01:00:43.880 --> 01:00:49.199 at any event, let's uh, let's let's wrap up for 962 01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:52.800 now because uh uh I want to shift gears with 963 01:00:52.880 --> 01:00:54.119 what we get to do next. And I realized this 964 01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:55.800 might have been a little bit dry, But again, like 965 01:00:55.840 --> 01:00:58.440 I said, I'm gonna reference all this stuff when we 966 01:00:58.519 --> 01:01:03.039 get into the the uh you know, discussing the battlefield 967 01:01:03.079 --> 01:01:05.880 situation and uh and and kind of the political uh 968 01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:09.559 maneuverings of mister Kennedy and mister Jonas and mister Nixon, 969 01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:12.280 so it becomes important. But yeah, I I hope, uh, 970 01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:14.559 I hope this didn't bore people at death. I hope 971 01:01:14.599 --> 01:01:17.440 they got something out of it relating to the topic. 972 01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:23.280 So just run through or anything you want to promote, 973 01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:24.039 and we'll go. 974 01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:26.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed, I mean, good things are happening. 975 01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:31.440 We uh you know, like I said, within the next 976 01:01:31.519 --> 01:01:34.119 week or so, we're launching the YouTube channel at one last, 977 01:01:35.719 --> 01:01:38.519 steel Storm two is dropping this month. To be on 978 01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:41.480 the lookout for that. I've got some big stuff happening 979 01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:45.440 on the podcast. But I'm gonna announce that formally on 980 01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:48.880 uh on the next pod episode, which you're gonna become 981 01:01:48.920 --> 01:01:52.880 more frequent. But you'll you'll uh, I don't want to 982 01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:54.400 I want to get into that like on the pod. 983 01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:56.599 But yeah, that's all I got. You can find me 984 01:01:56.679 --> 01:02:01.559 on Twitter at Triskelly and Jahad the he is A seven. 985 01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:06.239 Find me at Substack Real Thomas seven seven seven dot 986 01:02:06.280 --> 01:02:07.159 substack dot com. 987 01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:11.159 Thomas, I appreciate it. Until the next time. 988 01:02:12.159 --> 01:02:13.639 Yeah, likewise, thank you people. 989 01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:17.880 This is part seven of the Cold War series. Thomas 990 01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:18.840 seven seven seven. 991 01:02:19.119 --> 01:02:24.400 How are you doing, everybody? I'm okay man today. The 992 01:02:24.519 --> 01:02:26.559 issue with the Vietnam conflict, as we kind of got 993 01:02:26.599 --> 01:02:32.480 into last episode, it's not just that the the sort 994 01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:35.800 of controversy around it that endures to this day, you know, 995 01:02:36.039 --> 01:02:38.800 in terms of ethics and in terms of policy critiques. 996 01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:41.400 I mean, something has contrived. Some of it's not. But 997 01:02:41.559 --> 01:02:44.199 even if we take people's sort of values and partisan 998 01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:50.239 ideas are the equation entirely, the Vietnam conflict straddled, for 999 01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:53.280 lack of a better way to characterize it or describe it, 1000 01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:59.000 in multiple epochs, in in in terms of political and 1001 01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:02.599 military affairs, you know, as Vietnam jumped off and earned 1002 01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:04.920 it says, we'll get into what which was very much 1003 01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:07.280 during the Kennedy administration. I know some people have this 1004 01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:11.639 sort of like, uh, you know, this this uh, this 1005 01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:15.320 revisionist notion that O. Kennedy was trying to disengage from Vietnam. 1006 01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:18.079 That's not true at all. But even if regardless of that, 1007 01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:23.840 the uh uh, a paradigm shift in military affairs was 1008 01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:29.880 underway from the post new look Eisenhower era, you know, uh, 1009 01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:33.000 which was kind of bookended by the Cuba crisis, which 1010 01:03:33.079 --> 01:03:34.519 you know put an end to that kind of thinking, 1011 01:03:36.920 --> 01:03:40.239 you know, and and from that kind of like the 1012 01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:43.920 first phase of the American War, you know, like sixty 1013 01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:47.239 two to sixty five, I guess you could say represented 1014 01:03:47.480 --> 01:03:51.760 you know, that is sort of a gray area between 1015 01:03:52.199 --> 01:03:57.159 you know, sort of policy orientations the uh, the kind 1016 01:03:57.199 --> 01:03:59.800 of revolutionary period in the Third World where like you know, 1017 01:03:59.840 --> 01:04:01.440 the Color Revolt, if you want to look at it, 1018 01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:05.559 like that was an underway, full swing. You know what 1019 01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:10.159 the what what remained of the Western Powers were still engaged, 1020 01:04:10.360 --> 01:04:14.239 you know, uh, Spain, Portugal, France who just you know 1021 01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:16.280 been issued to crushing defeat at the end ben Fu. 1022 01:04:17.159 --> 01:04:19.800 You know, they were trying to they were trying to 1023 01:04:19.840 --> 01:04:23.679 find a way to you know, utilize firepower and the 1024 01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:27.400 technological ads that they enjoyed, you know, in order to 1025 01:04:27.840 --> 01:04:33.079 in order to advantage them and in counterinsurgency warfare. Vietnam 1026 01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:36.559 ended in the nineteen seventies as the era of true 1027 01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:39.000 strategic parody. It was emerging from the United States and 1028 01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:44.360 the Soviet Union and major powers were disengaging from the 1029 01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:48.039 Third World in direct capacities like owing not just the 1030 01:04:48.159 --> 01:04:51.079 fact that you know, independence was causing more and more 1031 01:04:51.159 --> 01:04:54.239 conflict diets to emerge where escalation could have brought the 1032 01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:57.960 superpowers into direct collision, like in nineteen seventy three in 1033 01:04:58.039 --> 01:05:01.000 the Middle East, but also it's because you know, there's 1034 01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:04.000 a certain weariness for you know, this kind of constant 1035 01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:08.599 engagement and act in combat and in multiple in multiple featers. 1036 01:05:10.039 --> 01:05:12.639 So Vietnam is important for all those kinds of reasons, 1037 01:05:12.719 --> 01:05:19.960 but also just uh it there's because of all those 1038 01:05:20.039 --> 01:05:23.519 things that just describe and kind of the you know, 1039 01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:28.719 the historical situatedness of the conflict in like temporally, I mean, 1040 01:05:29.679 --> 01:05:31.559 there was there's a lot of data to be derived 1041 01:05:31.639 --> 01:05:35.039 from it about about warfare. You know, when the roamies 1042 01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:38.039 the road in terms of combat and things and technology 1043 01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:42.320 and how these things impact impact the modern battlefield. But 1044 01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:46.199 also you can extravlate things about the American system and 1045 01:05:46.360 --> 01:05:54.039 how particularly uh, particularly wartime administrations. Uh, the politics uh 1046 01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:57.320 is very much insinuated into the decision making process. I 1047 01:05:57.360 --> 01:06:00.159 don't mean high politics, although that is the case too. 1048 01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:04.800 I mean these kind of like domestic intrigues still over 1049 01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:08.199 into the decision making process as regards you know, war 1050 01:06:08.280 --> 01:06:11.880 and peace decisions. And that's very bad. And obviously this 1051 01:06:12.519 --> 01:06:15.079 this gained a lot of momentum, you know, during the 1052 01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:18.039 kind of meat you know, uh, the rise of of 1053 01:06:18.280 --> 01:06:21.079 of the you know, the modern or contemporary not modern 1054 01:06:21.239 --> 01:06:24.480 contemporary like news cycle, which really began in the sixties 1055 01:06:24.519 --> 01:06:27.199 and seventies, you know, like reacing its zenith, you know 1056 01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:29.199 in like nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one where he had 1057 01:06:29.239 --> 01:06:31.360 the true twenty var news cycle and the Gulf War 1058 01:06:31.480 --> 01:06:34.480 on TV. I mean, now obviously that's done. I mean 1059 01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:37.679 there's certain like like media is ubiquitous, like in a 1060 01:06:37.719 --> 01:06:40.000 way never it's never met before. But there's not as 1061 01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:42.920 bully pulpit of like the news media, you know, the 1062 01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:46.239 terrestrial news media that's what everybody watches and that controls 1063 01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:49.719 you know, narratives and the parameters of discourse. Like That's 1064 01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:54.639 what I was talking about. But to dive into the topic. 1065 01:06:56.360 --> 01:07:00.079 There there's nobody who's more associated with Vietnam than and 1066 01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:04.360 Robert Man, okay, and Errol Morris, who I'm a great 1067 01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:06.440 I've got great scheme for I mean, this was weird 1068 01:07:06.599 --> 01:07:10.000 nevish type, but he he makes great films. You know, 1069 01:07:10.079 --> 01:07:14.280 he did a documentary on Fred Later you know who 1070 01:07:14.360 --> 01:07:19.159 authored the report. He did a documentary on on Donald Rumsfeld, 1071 01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:21.199 you know, in his I mean not to go too 1072 01:07:21.239 --> 01:07:24.679 far afield from our topic, but Errol Morris really pioneered 1073 01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:30.079 the documentary style of filmmaking in a way that's become convention, 1074 01:07:30.280 --> 01:07:34.440 and him letting his subject and his you know, obviously 1075 01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:41.519 his primary uh, his primary efforts are biographical of historical 1076 01:07:41.599 --> 01:07:44.079 personages or of people are just interested in, like in 1077 01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:46.760 the case of Laketer, but putting the camera on the 1078 01:07:46.880 --> 01:07:50.360 subject and letting the subject just testify, and Morris asking 1079 01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:53.119 his questions off camera or the or the you know, 1080 01:07:53.199 --> 01:07:56.320 the filmmaker or the interviewer asking off camera like Morris 1081 01:07:56.360 --> 01:07:59.480 and vented that style. But he I highly recommend anybody 1082 01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:02.719 The Fog of War. I think it was released in 1083 01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:06.039 two thousand and three. That's a pretty good kind of 1084 01:08:06.119 --> 01:08:09.760 capsule summary of McNamara's career from you know, it's the 1085 01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:13.079 testimony of McNamara himself. But because it's only like a 1086 01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:14.760 two and a half hour film, obviously a lot of 1087 01:08:14.800 --> 01:08:19.000 things are left out. But I highly recommend that to 1088 01:08:19.039 --> 01:08:22.000 anybody who wants to learn more about macnamara. So let's 1089 01:08:22.039 --> 01:08:27.039 talk about the man himself, Robert S. McNamara the S 1090 01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:31.720 stance for strange. His middle name was Strange, Robert Strange McNamara. 1091 01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:37.479 He was the longest serving Secretary of Defense to this day, 1092 01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:43.520 from nineteen sixty one to sixty eight. Nowadays, even administrations 1093 01:08:43.560 --> 01:08:48.279 that have a comparatively strong mandate, you know, they played 1094 01:08:48.319 --> 01:08:53.840 musical chairs with their cabinet postings. But even even uh, 1095 01:08:54.359 --> 01:08:57.439 even in McNamara's epoch, it was unheard of for a 1096 01:08:57.479 --> 01:09:00.520 Secretary of Defense to serve that long. Okay, like, why 1097 01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:03.680 did he serve this long? Well? Mat the Mari team 1098 01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:05.920 from Humble oura Jins. He was born in San Francisco 1099 01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:09.000 in nineteen sixteen. His father was the sales manager of 1100 01:09:09.119 --> 01:09:11.960 some kind of wholesale firm that literally made shoes and 1101 01:09:12.119 --> 01:09:15.199 other things like this, okay, like shoes and boots for 1102 01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:19.520 you know, like nurses and factory workers, So I mean 1103 01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:21.600 like part of the upper kind of like the lower 1104 01:09:21.640 --> 01:09:26.960 middle class, upper working class. He proved himself to be 1105 01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:32.039 a prodigy of swords with mathematics what we consider to 1106 01:09:32.119 --> 01:09:37.520 be logistics and data management, well, I mean logitics. Is 1107 01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:39.039 this in those days we consided to be like data 1108 01:09:39.119 --> 01:09:43.960 management today. He graduated ninety thirty seven from Berkeley, went 1109 01:09:43.960 --> 01:09:46.920 out of the Harvard Business School in ninth and graduate 1110 01:09:47.039 --> 01:09:51.199 ninety thirty nine. Obviously, right around this time, you know, 1111 01:09:51.399 --> 01:09:54.560 the New Dealers War was was jumping off. It was 1112 01:09:54.640 --> 01:09:57.600 only about you know, two years away. And when Magnamar 1113 01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:00.840 found himself in uniform, he ended up in the Army 1114 01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:04.680 Air Corps. And guys of his kind of caliber and 1115 01:10:04.760 --> 01:10:10.319 intellect tended to be shuttled that way for obvious reasons. 1116 01:10:10.520 --> 01:10:12.760 And he uh he entered the army as a captain 1117 01:10:12.800 --> 01:10:16.000 in forty three. He served under Curtis Lamy, who then 1118 01:10:16.119 --> 01:10:20.239 was a colonel with macnamarin La May. And it's interesting 1119 01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:23.199 because macdernala May and and and McNamara gets into this 1120 01:10:23.319 --> 01:10:26.319 in the in the Fog of War documentary, Like mcnamver 1121 01:10:26.439 --> 01:10:28.720 is probably the closest thing Lea May had like a friend, 1122 01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:31.279 but like mac namers, you know, and he's like, I, 1123 01:10:31.479 --> 01:10:33.079 I I don't. I felt like I didn't really know 1124 01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:35.600 the man very well, you know, at all. And then 1125 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:38.880 it's like when when Lamy died, apparently May's widow, kind 1126 01:10:38.920 --> 01:10:40.920 of mac namaran is like, yeah, Curtis said, you know, 1127 01:10:41.640 --> 01:10:43.359 he loved you. He said all these great things about you, 1128 01:10:43.680 --> 01:10:46.239 and mc namurrs like, really, like I idly heard the 1129 01:10:46.279 --> 01:10:49.399 guys say more than one word, but any of it. 1130 01:10:50.840 --> 01:10:54.119 Matthamas as a young officer kind of a defecto adjutant 1131 01:10:54.239 --> 01:10:59.479 to le May. He he kind of demonstrated his chops 1132 01:10:59.600 --> 01:11:04.640 for uh, for military logistics and just kind of you know, 1133 01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:12.239 applied applied analysis of of of of you know, the 1134 01:11:12.319 --> 01:11:15.119 mission at hand and in terms of like getting results 1135 01:11:15.560 --> 01:11:18.600 within the you know, rationale of what of of what 1136 01:11:18.840 --> 01:11:22.239 armyra coor was charged within the Pacific. Le May and 1137 01:11:22.520 --> 01:11:24.560 mag the mirror. They came up with a way to 1138 01:11:24.720 --> 01:11:29.119 assault the Japanese mainland from the Marianas Islands instead of 1139 01:11:29.199 --> 01:11:33.359 having to you know, jumped the Himalayas it has been 1140 01:11:33.479 --> 01:11:35.720 his had been done. And this o the things I 1141 01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:39.039 don't quite understand, like you know, fuel consumption versus load, 1142 01:11:39.119 --> 01:11:42.520 you know, versus you know, travel within or rebolvable, the 1143 01:11:42.600 --> 01:11:45.000 jet stream and all these kinds of things. You know, 1144 01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:51.720 the complex the complex calculus of the then nascent science 1145 01:11:51.840 --> 01:11:57.439 of uh military aviation. Okay, so the magna mirror. The 1146 01:11:57.479 --> 01:12:00.800 guy really was a polymath. Okay, I mean he and 1147 01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:04.600 he demonstrated that really by the time he was about 1148 01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:08.520 thirty years old. Well, my man, I got discharged. He 1149 01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:11.439 ended up at the Ford Motor Company in nineteen forty six. 1150 01:12:11.680 --> 01:12:15.000 And uh, the Ford Motor Company. It seems strange these 1151 01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:17.000 days it was like a college reason't really meaning thing. 1152 01:12:17.560 --> 01:12:22.359 But in those days when it was a rare credential 1153 01:12:22.800 --> 01:12:24.560 and when uh, unless you were one of these kind 1154 01:12:24.600 --> 01:12:26.479 of rich boys went to Yale or something, if you 1155 01:12:26.520 --> 01:12:28.319 went to college on merit, it's because you were a 1156 01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:33.680 guy who really really knew his stuff. There was very 1157 01:12:33.760 --> 01:12:37.560 view there's there's there's a dearth of of of managers 1158 01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:41.279 and an executive officers at Ford Motor Company were college educated. 1159 01:12:42.560 --> 01:12:46.279 So guys like mcnamurr was in demand. He got recruited 1160 01:12:46.359 --> 01:12:50.399 dinner in the as a manager of planning and financial analysis. 1161 01:12:51.720 --> 01:12:56.279 He he he advanced rapidly by nineteen sixty when he 1162 01:12:56.359 --> 01:12:58.840 was in his early when yeah, it was in his 1163 01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:02.479 late Yeah, it was nearly forties, been like forty three 1164 01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:05.159 forty four. Uh, he became the first president of Ford 1165 01:13:05.239 --> 01:13:07.840 Motor Company outside the Ford family, Okay, which was a 1166 01:13:07.920 --> 01:13:10.680 huge deal. And this was November ninth, which is a 1167 01:13:12.119 --> 01:13:14.760 date that I think we're all familiar with, and if 1168 01:13:14.800 --> 01:13:17.239 you were not before, I hope that after watching stuff 1169 01:13:17.279 --> 01:13:20.199 that Pete nos I do, you're familiar with it now. 1170 01:13:20.720 --> 01:13:25.760 November nineth nineties sixty was when he became first president 1171 01:13:25.760 --> 01:13:31.039 of Ford. This was one day after after JFK was elected. 1172 01:13:32.319 --> 01:13:36.920 And uh, during his uh, during his tenure at Ford, 1173 01:13:38.800 --> 01:13:41.239 both as what we now consider a quant and like 1174 01:13:41.279 --> 01:13:44.840 a corporate accountant, and during his brief tenure as president, 1175 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:48.199 he's credited with basically like making Ford competitive in the 1176 01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:51.439 post war period, like after like the government pork like 1177 01:13:51.520 --> 01:13:55.880 went away obviously, and this in the nineteen fifties and 1178 01:13:55.960 --> 01:13:59.000 early sixties, like a huge amount of American automakers like 1179 01:13:59.159 --> 01:14:01.600 just cease towigs. It's okay, I mean the all these 1180 01:14:01.640 --> 01:14:03.439 kind of a kind of brand. Some of them endured 1181 01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:05.760 like ame c endured to like the seventies or eighties, 1182 01:14:06.199 --> 01:14:09.520 but like there's a huge number of of automotive brands 1183 01:14:09.560 --> 01:14:13.359 that went under during the nineteen fifties. It was I 1184 01:14:13.439 --> 01:14:17.239 mean that, uh, I means one part, one part market corrective, 1185 01:14:17.359 --> 01:14:21.560 one part that just you know, just the scaling back 1186 01:14:21.680 --> 01:14:25.119 of of the subsidies they'd enjoyed, you know, during the 1187 01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:29.119 kind of staladays of the new deal for big manufacturing firms. 1188 01:14:29.920 --> 01:14:34.520 But in any event, JFK. Whatever we can say about him, 1189 01:14:34.920 --> 01:14:36.239 and I don't want to. I don't want to get 1190 01:14:36.279 --> 01:14:41.840 into a discussion on the man's merit or character or 1191 01:14:42.680 --> 01:14:46.119 that of his politics. One thing I said disputable is 1192 01:14:46.159 --> 01:14:50.399 that uh, he he with the exception of of of 1193 01:14:50.479 --> 01:14:52.760 the kind of naked nepotism in the case of his brother. 1194 01:14:52.880 --> 01:14:54.359 But I consider that to be more of a matter 1195 01:14:54.439 --> 01:14:58.159 of self preservation, you know, with installing him and as 1196 01:14:58.199 --> 01:15:02.680 the Attorney general, with the exception to that. Kennedy or 1197 01:15:02.840 --> 01:15:06.319 and ors advisors, they had a remarkable eye for cabinet talent, 1198 01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:12.479 and Kennedy's uh Kennedy's first choice for Secretary of Defense 1199 01:15:12.720 --> 01:15:15.680 was Robert A. Love It, who'd been the secondary defense 1200 01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:19.199 under Truman. Interestingly from fifty one to fifty three, height 1201 01:15:19.279 --> 01:15:22.399 of the Korean War, so obviously Kennedy was looking at 1202 01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:25.039 it for a man who had served as a wartime 1203 01:15:25.439 --> 01:15:30.119 Secretary of Defense, Okay, which indicates the kind of hard 1204 01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:35.920 realism pre Cuba that Kennedy's not conventionally credited with. But 1205 01:15:36.199 --> 01:15:38.079 that I think it's clear if people know how to 1206 01:15:38.119 --> 01:15:41.079 read between the lines. But the reason why he broke 1207 01:15:41.199 --> 01:15:43.760 love at first is because he didn't. He nobody thought 1208 01:15:43.840 --> 01:15:45.840 that man Kimura would leave for a mortar company. So 1209 01:15:45.880 --> 01:15:48.439 it's like it wasn't even it wasn't even like consideration, 1210 01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:51.079 not on grounds his mirror or anything. It's just that, 1211 01:15:51.199 --> 01:15:54.720 you know, the guy with a freaking all star and 1212 01:15:54.840 --> 01:15:57.239 love it also have been appropiated. George Marshall and I. 1213 01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:00.520 I don't think the Marshall Plan was this great power coup. 1214 01:16:00.560 --> 01:16:03.039 I don't think it accomplished much of anything other than 1215 01:16:04.199 --> 01:16:07.399 other than putting some shine on the occupation regime, which 1216 01:16:07.680 --> 01:16:11.239 really which needed to be rehabilitated, UH in order to 1217 01:16:11.319 --> 01:16:16.159 get the Boomist Republic to play ball the way the 1218 01:16:16.239 --> 01:16:19.640 Truman and Hour and the Truman and later I administrations 1219 01:16:19.720 --> 01:16:23.359 needed it to. But that's another story. George Marshall heed 1220 01:16:23.399 --> 01:16:27.039 trumant his clout in those days, and UH A lot 1221 01:16:27.119 --> 01:16:29.319 aside in the fact again that he you know, he 1222 01:16:29.600 --> 01:16:33.479 uh he cut his teeth as a wartime defense secretary 1223 01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:36.720 public the fact that prior to that he serves Marshall's 1224 01:16:36.760 --> 01:16:39.239 Undersecretary of Defense, and he was very much a protegy 1225 01:16:39.319 --> 01:16:43.920 of the guy. But uh a lot of declined. He's like, 1226 01:16:44.600 --> 01:16:47.720 you know, out of raw fatigue, I think. But also 1227 01:16:47.800 --> 01:16:51.359 he said, you know, I you uh, you should, you 1228 01:16:51.399 --> 01:16:55.520 should you should poach magnam Era because he'll probably take it. 1229 01:16:56.239 --> 01:17:00.920 And uh, Kennedy went through started shreiver uh and offered 1230 01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:03.720 him the Secretary of Defense position or the Secretary of 1231 01:17:03.720 --> 01:17:07.560 the Treasury. Magnumer immediately accepted the appointment of Secretary of Defense. 1232 01:17:10.279 --> 01:17:13.640 Was Magma knowledgeable about defense matter as well? I mean, 1233 01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:20.359 I mean compared to compared to anybody since uh Cheney. 1234 01:17:20.560 --> 01:17:22.920 Let me qualify that. I mean, I hope people think 1235 01:17:23.079 --> 01:17:26.600 not not in proud of that Cheney's a total piece 1236 01:17:26.640 --> 01:17:29.920 of shit. When Chaney was Secretary of Defense under Bush 1237 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:34.399 forty three, I think he very much had a sense 1238 01:17:34.520 --> 01:17:38.279 of what needed to be done in the transition era 1239 01:17:38.520 --> 01:17:41.439 from the UH from the from the as the Cold 1240 01:17:41.479 --> 01:17:45.720 Wars literally ending, Okay, And I only invoked him because 1241 01:17:45.920 --> 01:17:48.680 regardless of the guy's character, which I think we're gonna 1242 01:17:48.680 --> 01:17:53.439 agree is not something laudable, and whatever other issues he has, 1243 01:17:54.359 --> 01:17:56.439 he was a highly qualified Secretary of Defense. No, we 1244 01:17:56.520 --> 01:17:58.359 did not come up through the military, but he was 1245 01:17:58.439 --> 01:18:02.199 something of a polymath, and he understood military matters as 1246 01:18:02.199 --> 01:18:04.880 we are as policy or the roomies the road in 1247 01:18:04.960 --> 01:18:08.640 a really splendid way. Subsequently, I think the Secretary Defense 1248 01:18:08.760 --> 01:18:12.399 these days is something is is kind of uh, it's 1249 01:18:12.399 --> 01:18:14.920 almost like it's almost like kremlinology. You gotta look through 1250 01:18:14.920 --> 01:18:18.039 the kind of a pig. There's always like sinecures that 1251 01:18:18.079 --> 01:18:22.039 don't mean anything anymore, and people's titles don't actually indicate 1252 01:18:22.960 --> 01:18:24.880 what their roles in fact are, like I think I 1253 01:18:24.960 --> 01:18:27.680 think Robert Gates was the de facto like shadow foreign 1254 01:18:27.760 --> 01:18:30.680 policy president. I also think that Secretary Defense has become 1255 01:18:30.760 --> 01:18:33.840 Secretary of State in a real way, which is very strange. 1256 01:18:34.359 --> 01:18:39.479 But in the Kennedy era, these cabinet positions carried a 1257 01:18:39.560 --> 01:18:43.399 lot more weight and uh, there's a lot more transparency 1258 01:18:43.479 --> 01:18:45.239 in terms of the man who said who held the 1259 01:18:45.359 --> 01:18:48.840 office was very much the decision maker, with some mirrow exceptions. 1260 01:18:49.399 --> 01:18:53.760 You know, uh, there when you have an executive. It 1261 01:18:53.880 --> 01:18:57.760 was as much of a who was as much of 1262 01:18:57.880 --> 01:19:03.159 a hands on the sort of authoritarian his FDR. Yeah, 1263 01:19:03.199 --> 01:19:05.920 they're very much for some people are ciphers and key roles, 1264 01:19:05.960 --> 01:19:08.199 because he simply didn't want them to do anything. But 1265 01:19:08.920 --> 01:19:12.960 exempting that, you know, you, uh, if you've got a 1266 01:19:13.079 --> 01:19:15.439 pointed Secretary of Defense, you were a pretty heavy hitter. 1267 01:19:17.439 --> 01:19:19.560 And magnaver was one of the fourth Secretary of Defense 1268 01:19:19.720 --> 01:19:23.399 because until you know, the until Nuremberg was Secretary of 1269 01:19:23.479 --> 01:19:27.560 War was the cabinet posting. But that's that's uh, there's 1270 01:19:27.560 --> 01:19:30.039 a lot to unpack there, frankly, but that's that's outside 1271 01:19:30.039 --> 01:19:32.880 our scope. But in any event, mcmaarr was kind of 1272 01:19:32.880 --> 01:19:36.520 a perfect choice for this arrow, okay, because uh, the 1273 01:19:36.640 --> 01:19:39.279 technology and I mean this was this was the dawn 1274 01:19:39.319 --> 01:19:42.119 of the information age, Okay, like computing as we know 1275 01:19:42.239 --> 01:19:44.880 it was very much just kind of beginning then, and 1276 01:19:44.960 --> 01:19:48.439 it begun during the Second World War, but in an 1277 01:19:48.439 --> 01:19:54.199 applied capacity it was emergent. Uh, macnamara understood logistics better 1278 01:19:54.239 --> 01:19:57.920 than anybody. He understood highly scaled systems and management of 1279 01:19:58.039 --> 01:20:01.279 those systems and how do I identify variables and the 1280 01:20:01.319 --> 01:20:06.479 bouted rationality of the system in question and what it 1281 01:20:06.560 --> 01:20:09.439 was purposed for. You can identify like what was most 1282 01:20:09.520 --> 01:20:14.439 essential to production. And that's an odd skill set. That's 1283 01:20:14.520 --> 01:20:17.439 kind of like what management comes down to in the 1284 01:20:17.479 --> 01:20:21.039 burn up sense of managerialism. I mean when I say management, 1285 01:20:21.319 --> 01:20:23.760 I don't mean some dick who like manages a home depot, 1286 01:20:24.119 --> 01:20:25.840 and I don't mean like the way you eat like 1287 01:20:25.960 --> 01:20:28.960 fatty char ladies talking about management. I mean in terms 1288 01:20:29.039 --> 01:20:33.680 of you know, actual actually knowing how to knowing how 1289 01:20:33.720 --> 01:20:37.119 to optimize the performance of of a both the human 1290 01:20:37.159 --> 01:20:42.479 element and the autonomous element within some highly scaled structure, 1291 01:20:42.680 --> 01:20:45.960 you know, with all kinds of variables, some which are 1292 01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:49.359 more essential than others, you know, but the core ones 1293 01:20:49.720 --> 01:20:54.039 that facilitate productivity and the most concrete ways you know, 1294 01:20:54.119 --> 01:20:58.039 need be identified by most people can't do that, and 1295 01:20:58.159 --> 01:21:04.720 particularly in un member his day. Yeah, as it just indicated, 1296 01:21:04.760 --> 01:21:06.720 you know, this was like the dawn of the information age, 1297 01:21:07.279 --> 01:21:10.840 and you know technology there's there's gonna punctuated equal every 1298 01:21:10.880 --> 01:21:12.680 of the technology and then we can all agree on that. 1299 01:21:13.560 --> 01:21:17.720 You know. Uh, it's like once there's there'll be one 1300 01:21:17.760 --> 01:21:22.199 innovation and then you know that that that that leads 1301 01:21:22.239 --> 01:21:25.159 to others. You know, in a very kind of in 1302 01:21:25.239 --> 01:21:28.119 a very kind of in a very kind of rampid capacity. 1303 01:21:28.680 --> 01:21:31.199 This was under this what was underway, But you didn't 1304 01:21:31.239 --> 01:21:34.039 have at your disposal like all this kind of you know, 1305 01:21:34.159 --> 01:21:37.399 you didn't. You didn't have consumer tech that we take 1306 01:21:37.479 --> 01:21:40.079 for granted and big business in those days. You know, 1307 01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:43.359 like you didn't you you you're basically like using like 1308 01:21:43.399 --> 01:21:46.680 a pen and paper an antarchist like proverbially and sometimes literally, 1309 01:21:47.239 --> 01:21:51.359 you know, to handle like massive realms of data. So, uh, 1310 01:21:52.079 --> 01:21:54.720 the kind of like the right man in the role 1311 01:21:55.279 --> 01:22:00.239 and the aromastos men not for conspiratorial reasons but rand 1312 01:22:00.239 --> 01:22:03.960 their pological ones. You know that it was this was 1313 01:22:04.039 --> 01:22:06.279 this was more essential then than even today, although it's 1314 01:22:06.279 --> 01:22:12.039 still like remains essential. But Macnamer's philosophy, in his own words, 1315 01:22:13.119 --> 01:22:16.520 was uh. He said, the senator defense in the then 1316 01:22:16.640 --> 01:22:20.600 current era had to take an quote active role. He said, uh, 1317 01:22:21.279 --> 01:22:25.920 you know, he aimed to provide aggressive leadership, questioning, suggesting alternatives, 1318 01:22:26.000 --> 01:22:29.319 proposing objectives, and stimulating progress, just as he had done 1319 01:22:29.319 --> 01:22:32.359 at Ford Motor Company. That might sound corny on its 1320 01:22:32.399 --> 01:22:36.960 face or like corporate pr like magnamr Is the Concert 1321 01:22:37.039 --> 01:22:39.720 company man, but in his case, I think he really 1322 01:22:39.800 --> 01:22:42.159 believed that, and honestly, I think in a lot of 1323 01:22:42.239 --> 01:22:49.159 respects that's like what he accomplished. He rejected radical organizational changes. Look, 1324 01:22:49.239 --> 01:22:54.000 I just indicated there was there's a lot of people, uh, 1325 01:22:54.319 --> 01:22:58.079 both within the military establishment and also within the policy establishment. 1326 01:22:58.239 --> 01:23:00.399 And this was very incestuous in some case is too, 1327 01:23:01.359 --> 01:23:04.479 but on Capitol Hill there's all kinds of people who 1328 01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:07.560 are trying to force uh, you know, these kind of 1329 01:23:07.680 --> 01:23:11.520 top down changes to the military apparatus. You know the 1330 01:23:11.600 --> 01:23:15.520 command structure, you know the way forces it being were organized, 1331 01:23:15.920 --> 01:23:20.000 you know, uh at at that division level, and you know, uh, 1332 01:23:20.640 --> 01:23:23.439 and and what weapons systems we're gonna get privileged over others? 1333 01:23:25.119 --> 01:23:26.800 There even there was really is that there was a 1334 01:23:27.720 --> 01:23:32.079 there was there was debate about the draft and its future. Okay, 1335 01:23:32.279 --> 01:23:36.199 uh this Uh there was a committee I cannot remember 1336 01:23:36.239 --> 01:23:39.640 the name of it, and I'm sorry, headed by a senator, 1337 01:23:39.960 --> 01:23:46.479 uh Stewart Synington. He wanted to his committee with him 1338 01:23:46.800 --> 01:23:51.479 leading the charge. They wanted to abolish the discrete military departments. 1339 01:23:51.760 --> 01:23:54.520 They wanted to replace the joint chief the single chief 1340 01:23:54.520 --> 01:23:57.359 of staff and you know not and and and and 1341 01:23:57.600 --> 01:24:00.560 give him dominion over they wanted to like an inner 1342 01:24:00.640 --> 01:24:05.880 service command structure. Okay, you know, you abolish discrete ranks 1343 01:24:05.920 --> 01:24:08.600 between the services. You have like this unitary command structure 1344 01:24:08.800 --> 01:24:10.800 that went to this one man who in turned of 1345 01:24:10.840 --> 01:24:14.760 accountable only to the president and his national security cabin which, 1346 01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:17.680 in my opinion is a terrible idea, but like this 1347 01:24:17.960 --> 01:24:19.520 this was kind of thing among other stuff that was 1348 01:24:19.560 --> 01:24:22.079 being taken seriously then, you know, and mat the mirror 1349 01:24:22.279 --> 01:24:24.000 as soon as he took office, He's like, no, that 1350 01:24:24.239 --> 01:24:26.359 that ship's over with, you know, like, shut the fuck up. 1351 01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:29.960 That's not happening. You know, we're not well, we maybe 1352 01:24:30.039 --> 01:24:32.319 will be you know, we we maybe will be fighting 1353 01:24:32.359 --> 01:24:34.760 World War three at you know, in a few years, 1354 01:24:35.600 --> 01:24:38.760 we're probably gonna be at war, you know, in in 1355 01:24:38.840 --> 01:24:42.279 a secondary theater, you know, within months. We're not when 1356 01:24:42.359 --> 01:24:45.319 we're not gonna completely upset the We're not gonna cpletely 1357 01:24:45.399 --> 01:24:48.439 upset the wagon and uh for the apple cart, you know, 1358 01:24:48.520 --> 01:24:51.359 and and start playing games with you know, with with 1359 01:24:51.560 --> 01:24:56.600 force structure organization. And that was and that and that 1360 01:24:56.800 --> 01:24:59.680 actually that that was that that that was huge, okay, 1361 01:24:59.720 --> 01:25:06.000 because things would have I Simington's idea was particularly stupid, 1362 01:25:06.119 --> 01:25:08.600 I think, but there's all kinds there was all kinds 1363 01:25:08.600 --> 01:25:11.640 of stuff being bandied about that wouldn't really that wouldn't 1364 01:25:11.680 --> 01:25:16.560 really kind of upset the ability of h of the 1365 01:25:16.760 --> 01:25:22.640 entire defense establishment to react. And really from from after 1366 01:25:22.720 --> 01:25:25.840 the Cuba crisis, I mean in seventy three and then 1367 01:25:25.880 --> 01:25:28.279 an eighty three, I mean, yeah, there was there was 1368 01:25:28.319 --> 01:25:30.760 the punctity crisis of a strategic nature and that were 1369 01:25:30.800 --> 01:25:34.840 truly critical, but about every two years, like in between, 1370 01:25:35.279 --> 01:25:36.680 like you there were there was some kind of like 1371 01:25:36.920 --> 01:25:41.439 what you can think of as like brush fire uh uh, 1372 01:25:42.600 --> 01:25:46.960 crisis of a secondary in a secondary theater that that nonetheless, 1373 01:25:47.159 --> 01:25:50.479 you know, like required an active response. And this ultimately, 1374 01:25:50.560 --> 01:25:51.840 this is one of the things that led to like 1375 01:25:51.880 --> 01:25:54.640 the creation a special Operations Command, but that that stuff 1376 01:25:54.720 --> 01:25:56.840 had the scope too, you know, like a unitary command 1377 01:25:57.159 --> 01:26:01.720 or special operations forces. Unfortunately, a lot of disasters happened 1378 01:26:01.800 --> 01:26:05.520 for that to become uh implemented. But that's kind of 1379 01:26:05.520 --> 01:26:08.199 always the way it is, not just with the military. 1380 01:26:09.319 --> 01:26:13.520 But uh, what was Kennedy's polity policy envision If you 1381 01:26:13.560 --> 01:26:16.319 want to understand Vietnam's escalation, I don't just mean the 1382 01:26:16.359 --> 01:26:22.199 punctioning of escalation. That was yielded or exploited, depending on 1383 01:26:22.640 --> 01:26:28.359 your perspective, by the Gulf of Tonkin resolution Vietnam. True 1384 01:26:28.520 --> 01:26:33.720 engagement with Vietnam went began with Eisenhower, Okay, in a 1385 01:26:33.800 --> 01:26:36.159 real capacity. And when when when Kennedy took the oath 1386 01:26:36.199 --> 01:26:40.640 of office, there was there was special Operations forces types 1387 01:26:40.680 --> 01:26:43.960 on the ground who were directly engaged with the communists. Okay. 1388 01:26:44.039 --> 01:26:46.520 So I mean it's this this idea that you know, 1389 01:26:47.279 --> 01:26:49.239 this idea that you know, like I said before we 1390 01:26:49.319 --> 01:26:52.880 went live, Oh, Kennedy was trying to disengage from Sally Stasia. 1391 01:26:53.000 --> 01:26:56.119 But then you know, Johnson, this this this bad guy, 1392 01:26:56.319 --> 01:27:00.640 you know, just engage us, engage them. Is the country 1393 01:27:00.960 --> 01:27:03.039 at war? Said he could you know, make money by 1394 01:27:03.239 --> 01:27:06.359 you know, bell helicopters, selling selling stuff to the Pentagon 1395 01:27:06.479 --> 01:27:09.000 or whatever the fuck? Alverst Stone and Howard is in 1396 01:27:09.159 --> 01:27:15.399 claim that did not happen. Kennedy UH in his UH, 1397 01:27:16.520 --> 01:27:18.800 in his UH speech to Congress in March twenty eighth, 1398 01:27:19.640 --> 01:27:23.439 the UH, the core emphasis of the speech was defense. 1399 01:27:23.800 --> 01:27:26.520 It was Cold war, it was UH, it was war 1400 01:27:26.600 --> 01:27:29.960 in peace, it was power pilotic stuff. In part because 1401 01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:32.159 you know, Nickson was always not just kind of on 1402 01:27:32.239 --> 01:27:36.279 a campaign trail. I mean, Dixon was not just always 1403 01:27:36.279 --> 01:27:38.520 trying to portray Kennedy as some as some punk rich 1404 01:27:38.600 --> 01:27:40.600 kid who was went by in the years he was 1405 01:27:40.840 --> 01:27:43.359 He's basically he basically was always calling him a pussy, 1406 01:27:43.760 --> 01:27:46.600 you know, and saying like he's soft on communism. You know, 1407 01:27:48.199 --> 01:27:50.479 he's a rich kid. He he doesn't he does not 1408 01:27:50.680 --> 01:27:54.600 have the presence to command, nor does he have like 1409 01:27:54.680 --> 01:27:58.039 the knowledge, you know, which is not wrong, because Kennedy 1410 01:27:58.119 --> 01:28:00.760 was a lot of things, but he was like stay 1411 01:28:00.760 --> 01:28:02.880 in the Kennedy's he was a gangster's son, and he 1412 01:28:03.000 --> 01:28:04.840 was a war hero when he started in the brown Water. 1413 01:28:05.600 --> 01:28:07.680 Like the dude was kind of a bit you know, 1414 01:28:07.800 --> 01:28:10.600 like yeah, like yeah, he wasn't like a big pussy 1415 01:28:10.720 --> 01:28:13.880 or whatever. I mean, yeah, but the but I mean 1416 01:28:13.920 --> 01:28:16.520 politics is politics and being what it is. That's you know, 1417 01:28:17.680 --> 01:28:20.119 and I mean it wasn't just Nix and other people too. 1418 01:28:20.279 --> 01:28:23.359 They you know, Kennedy, he he had kind of like 1419 01:28:23.399 --> 01:28:26.439 a boyish charm like our phony might think that is 1420 01:28:26.600 --> 01:28:29.159 like he did not you know, he didn't come off 1421 01:28:29.239 --> 01:28:33.000 as uh this like a heavy personage and especially succeeding 1422 01:28:33.079 --> 01:28:36.760 Eisenhower like this, like the Soviets were genuinely afraid of Eisenhower, 1423 01:28:38.159 --> 01:28:41.079 and uh, I think for good reason. Like I'm not, 1424 01:28:41.520 --> 01:28:43.640 I don't think eys I was this rare genius like 1425 01:28:43.760 --> 01:28:45.720 some people do. And uh, I think in some ways 1426 01:28:45.720 --> 01:28:48.920 he was an ugly eye in terms of his character. 1427 01:28:49.600 --> 01:28:53.800 But he uh, he was a ruthless so ob, you know, 1428 01:28:53.880 --> 01:28:57.039 and he he definitely had a kind of command presence. 1429 01:28:57.079 --> 01:29:00.439 I mean that goes without saying. But okay, the out 1430 01:29:00.479 --> 01:29:05.640 line to to uh the March twenty eight, ninety sixty 1431 01:29:05.680 --> 01:29:09.720 one speech when he outlined, as he said, look, massive 1432 01:29:09.760 --> 01:29:12.680 retaliation is a doctrin and he's like, that's over. Okay. 1433 01:29:12.720 --> 01:29:15.039 It's like, so is the new look as it's been 1434 01:29:15.560 --> 01:29:21.800 you know, as it was uh euphemistically assigned. You know, 1435 01:29:21.880 --> 01:29:24.359 He's like, we're not we're not gonna rely on on 1436 01:29:24.520 --> 01:29:28.119 first un splendid first strike capability, nor are we just 1437 01:29:28.159 --> 01:29:31.159 gonna rely on the nuclear deterrent, you know in low 1438 01:29:31.199 --> 01:29:35.520 A conventional forces, like it's not realistic, it's totally flexible 1439 01:29:35.600 --> 01:29:40.039 and and frankly it's uh and frankly it's it's it's 1440 01:29:40.119 --> 01:29:43.319 totally it's it's it's it's it's morally bankrupt. You know, 1441 01:29:43.399 --> 01:29:46.880 you don't you don't you don't keep the peace by 1442 01:29:46.960 --> 01:29:50.239 threatening that several states of the world look like massive 1443 01:29:50.479 --> 01:29:55.560 like genocidal counter value with Saul, you know, like as 1444 01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:59.600 a standing policy, but it uh, I mean it being 1445 01:29:59.640 --> 01:30:04.479 someone for but there really was like there, like the 1446 01:30:04.600 --> 01:30:06.560 kind of MIDEU that Herman Khan came out of. And 1447 01:30:06.600 --> 01:30:08.720 I think Herman Khan was great, and I'm not putting 1448 01:30:08.720 --> 01:30:10.760 shit in him at all, but either the MIDEU of 1449 01:30:10.880 --> 01:30:14.560 Khan and Van Neuman, like there were guys like like 1450 01:30:14.760 --> 01:30:19.640 genuinely autistic guys, uh who'd uh you know, come up 1451 01:30:19.720 --> 01:30:23.600 through uh academia and and game theory and stuff. Who 1452 01:30:24.439 --> 01:30:27.960 who were suggesting things that you know, made sense in 1453 01:30:28.119 --> 01:30:31.079 terms of you know, the the raw variables of of 1454 01:30:31.439 --> 01:30:35.560 balance of forces and capabilities or were just like where 1455 01:30:35.720 --> 01:30:39.960 just like grossly moral offensive, morally offensive in terms of 1456 01:30:40.479 --> 01:30:43.359 like uh, in terms of policy orientation, but I mean 1457 01:30:43.399 --> 01:30:47.159 like doctor Strange Love Like yeah, it's like it seems 1458 01:30:47.199 --> 01:30:49.640 like over the top ridiculous, like something that piecedic movie, 1459 01:30:49.880 --> 01:30:51.840 but it was like ranging on like a real phenomon, 1460 01:30:52.359 --> 01:30:56.199 you know, like uh, which is which is kind of 1461 01:30:56.199 --> 01:30:59.439 funny but also kind of fucked up. But uh, the 1462 01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:04.439 he Kennedy also, to his credit, and this wasn't realized 1463 01:31:04.520 --> 01:31:08.319 until Carter and a presidential director of fifty eight and 1464 01:31:08.359 --> 01:31:11.159 fifty nine. And obviously the technology at that point it 1465 01:31:11.239 --> 01:31:14.520 made it far more critical for human decision makers to 1466 01:31:14.560 --> 01:31:19.159 assert control over nuclear arms and commanding control. But things 1467 01:31:19.239 --> 01:31:23.439 were already moving in that direction whereby not only were 1468 01:31:24.199 --> 01:31:27.960 we we're we're human decision makers being sidelined, but the 1469 01:31:28.399 --> 01:31:33.159 military and specifically Strategic Air Command was very much taking 1470 01:31:33.199 --> 01:31:37.680 control of these processes. And Kennedy, you know, said that 1471 01:31:37.760 --> 01:31:41.239 Scott to stop, you know, and and mag and Urra 1472 01:31:41.680 --> 01:31:43.760 was exactly the man to kind of see to that, 1473 01:31:44.439 --> 01:31:48.600 you know, in terms of structuring forces and protocol strategic forces, 1474 01:31:48.680 --> 01:31:53.239 I mean to uh, to obviate the threat of of 1475 01:31:53.359 --> 01:31:56.640 civilian control and the commander in chief role being appropriated 1476 01:31:56.720 --> 01:32:03.359 by by a military element. He manter I believed it 1477 01:32:03.439 --> 01:32:08.399 more to obviate that than anybody until Carter. And as 1478 01:32:08.439 --> 01:32:10.439 we get into the Carter era, we're gonna talk about 1479 01:32:10.600 --> 01:32:13.279 like all that cool stuff. I think it's cool fancied 1480 01:32:13.359 --> 01:32:16.319 by the late Cold War and the kind of strategic 1481 01:32:16.439 --> 01:32:21.560 nuclear paradigm and and artificial intelligence there in some people 1482 01:32:21.560 --> 01:32:23.720 will probably think that's boring as fuck, but I think 1483 01:32:23.760 --> 01:32:29.159 it's really cool. But in any event, what's key, uh 1484 01:32:30.159 --> 01:32:38.159 about Kennedy's policy speech on defense was uh, he said, quote, 1485 01:32:38.640 --> 01:32:41.199 we need to operate with an eye to to quote 1486 01:32:41.760 --> 01:32:45.720 prevent the steady erosion of the free world through limited wars. Now, 1487 01:32:45.800 --> 01:32:48.279 this is the crux of why America went to war 1488 01:32:48.359 --> 01:32:51.640 in Vietnam. Okay. The way you gotta look at the 1489 01:32:51.680 --> 01:32:56.159 Cold War is that obviously there's the ongoing strategic nuclear 1490 01:32:56.319 --> 01:32:59.880 threat of you know, a total war between WARSAW picked 1491 01:32:59.880 --> 01:33:03.199 and NATO, which would be catastrophic. I mean that goes 1492 01:33:03.279 --> 01:33:07.960 out saying, but the real issue on as a basic 1493 01:33:08.039 --> 01:33:16.119 stability ensued between the superpowers, it could be imagined and 1494 01:33:16.600 --> 01:33:22.760 the team b the you know, the the TV exercise 1495 01:33:24.119 --> 01:33:27.880 and the men who uh, the men who organized and 1496 01:33:27.960 --> 01:33:31.359 facilitated it and who were instrumentally getting regular elected. Frankly, 1497 01:33:33.119 --> 01:33:36.159 the scenario these guys painted was like, look, imagine in 1498 01:33:36.239 --> 01:33:41.399 America where essentially all of Asia save South Korea and Japan, 1499 01:33:42.199 --> 01:33:46.199 all of Latin America, say, Mexico, all of Africa save 1500 01:33:46.359 --> 01:33:49.560 like a handful of the Arab states who are nonetheless 1501 01:33:49.600 --> 01:33:53.680 like Soviet aligned, you know, goes Communists or becomes basically 1502 01:33:53.920 --> 01:33:57.840 sympathetic to the communist perspective and is either staked out, 1503 01:33:58.039 --> 01:34:01.720 you know, a position of absolute which in the Cold War, 1504 01:34:02.239 --> 01:34:05.199 or as a veil itself as a Soviet proxy. Like, yeah, 1505 01:34:05.279 --> 01:34:09.520 America would survive in those circumstances, but it basically be 1506 01:34:09.640 --> 01:34:12.079 as a garrison state that was kind of second rate 1507 01:34:12.199 --> 01:34:15.680 power within the Western hemisphere, you know, surrounded by a 1508 01:34:15.760 --> 01:34:20.159 hostile Like that's a very that that's a very dangerous 1509 01:34:20.199 --> 01:34:22.760 world to live in. And a lot of the things 1510 01:34:22.800 --> 01:34:24.520 we could even if even if some kind of perennial 1511 01:34:24.600 --> 01:34:27.000 piece could be achieved, a lot of the things we 1512 01:34:27.119 --> 01:34:30.880 take for granted, we just would not exist, you know. 1513 01:34:31.159 --> 01:34:34.640 Uh that would it kind of frozen American tech and 1514 01:34:34.680 --> 01:34:40.000 American wealth at a certain point because just by virtual 1515 01:34:40.000 --> 01:34:42.359 of dominating the rest of the planet, you know, like 1516 01:34:42.439 --> 01:34:44.319 the Soviet Union could have kind of like remade the 1517 01:34:44.399 --> 01:34:46.680 world in its own image, kind of like how America 1518 01:34:46.840 --> 01:34:48.880 like remade the world in its own image after nineteen 1519 01:34:48.880 --> 01:34:50.880 eighty nine, which is not a good thing. But my 1520 01:34:50.960 --> 01:34:54.800 point being, like people act like the Cold War was 1521 01:34:54.840 --> 01:34:57.800 this kind of like ridiculous paranoid fantasy, or that it 1522 01:34:57.880 --> 01:35:00.680 was like this excuse to like so munitions and helllicopters 1523 01:35:00.880 --> 01:35:04.760 you know, by defense contractors, like it was in fact 1524 01:35:04.800 --> 01:35:08.680 the real thing, and this was this was the potential outcome. 1525 01:35:08.920 --> 01:35:15.439 Really until until Gorbachev and until the Stowe's folded their flag. 1526 01:35:15.840 --> 01:35:18.279 It wasn't this binary thing like either you know, total 1527 01:35:18.359 --> 01:35:22.239 war or peace or you know, ah, this communism doesn't work. Yeah, 1528 01:35:22.239 --> 01:35:24.000 it doesn't work, but it doesn't matter all because of 1529 01:35:24.000 --> 01:35:27.319 the ship doesn't work that you know. Nevertheless, like indoors 1530 01:35:27.439 --> 01:35:31.800 or shuffles on like like some like like some fucking 1531 01:35:32.399 --> 01:35:35.600 Frankenstein's monster or something like that. That was a very 1532 01:35:35.640 --> 01:35:39.720 real possibility. And Kennedy's uh, what he was saying here 1533 01:35:39.840 --> 01:35:44.560 is look, if we ignore, if if we ignore theaters 1534 01:35:44.600 --> 01:35:47.000 like you know, China, if we ignore theaters it's up 1535 01:35:47.039 --> 01:35:51.880 there in Africa. If we ignore especially you know, uh, 1536 01:35:52.479 --> 01:35:54.840 developments in their own backyard. I mean, that's two folds 1537 01:35:54.840 --> 01:35:57.600 on the road doctrine. But that aside a minute. You know, 1538 01:35:57.640 --> 01:35:59.119 it's like we're gonna die like at death by a 1539 01:35:59.159 --> 01:36:02.479 thousand cuts. That's regards our ability to you know, influence 1540 01:36:02.560 --> 01:36:04.760 the course of politics and the rest of his planet. 1541 01:36:05.239 --> 01:36:06.479 You know, and you do you really want to be 1542 01:36:06.680 --> 01:36:09.760 like a garrison state, albeit a continent side garrison states 1543 01:36:09.760 --> 01:36:12.680 as large as all deficient, self sufficient, But you do 1544 01:36:12.680 --> 01:36:15.119 you really want to be like like the American island 1545 01:36:15.239 --> 01:36:17.960 in like the Red World. I mean that that was 1546 01:36:19.039 --> 01:36:21.680 that was not only poignant, but he was very realistic. 1547 01:36:21.800 --> 01:36:25.399 And I give Kennedy aught of props for that for 1548 01:36:25.520 --> 01:36:27.920 that speech. Like I said, I'm reading wind the lions 1549 01:36:28.000 --> 01:36:30.960 as he intended, Gogress read wind the lines. But that's 1550 01:36:32.079 --> 01:36:34.479 that's I'm not a Kennedy fan or apologist at all. 1551 01:36:34.600 --> 01:36:38.119 But not only does that go ahead, I'm. 1552 01:36:37.960 --> 01:36:41.800 Sorry, let me ask, Okay, he said that the Cold 1553 01:36:41.840 --> 01:36:45.800 War was a very real thing. Is that because of 1554 01:36:48.359 --> 01:36:48.520 was it? 1555 01:36:49.199 --> 01:36:49.239 Was? 1556 01:36:49.279 --> 01:36:56.960 It a continuing ideological war between the the neo conservatives 1557 01:36:57.479 --> 01:37:02.560 and who started them and the Soviet Union that whole time. 1558 01:37:04.399 --> 01:37:07.199 Well, there's wars within that, there's wars within that camp. 1559 01:37:07.279 --> 01:37:08.439 I mean, do you want to know what I think? 1560 01:37:10.119 --> 01:37:13.560 I agree with the Yaki's perspective that the Doctor's plots 1561 01:37:13.720 --> 01:37:17.319 like that epoch, not that incident itself, but that incident 1562 01:37:17.479 --> 01:37:20.199 was demonstrative like a break within the communist camp, like 1563 01:37:20.239 --> 01:37:23.520 if the leadership cast Okay, and that's also one of 1564 01:37:23.560 --> 01:37:25.479 the reasons why, like Israel up and just became like 1565 01:37:25.600 --> 01:37:29.880 massively anti communists, like all of a sudden. Okay, so 1566 01:37:30.039 --> 01:37:34.880 yeah there was that. The Soviet Union became this kind 1567 01:37:34.880 --> 01:37:38.319 of strange thing, like, yeah, it was. It was. It 1568 01:37:38.439 --> 01:37:41.119 clung to revolutionary socialism till the end of its life. 1569 01:37:41.439 --> 01:37:44.159 But like was it a Marxist Leninist state, Like as 1570 01:37:44.279 --> 01:37:48.560 much as such things existed, it was. But uh, you 1571 01:37:48.640 --> 01:37:50.560 know what the Soviet Union really had going for it 1572 01:37:50.840 --> 01:37:55.800 was the kind of Soviet DDR model that was really 1573 01:37:55.840 --> 01:37:58.720 appealing in the people in the Third World. You know, 1574 01:37:59.039 --> 01:38:01.600 like uh, Olive from North when he was under cover 1575 01:38:01.960 --> 01:38:06.479 like doing verty shady things. When he landed the Monagua airport, 1576 01:38:06.680 --> 01:38:10.600 he relaid back under like like State Department cover roof. 1577 01:38:10.640 --> 01:38:13.039 He liked their teleux or whatever. He's like, a Managua 1578 01:38:13.119 --> 01:38:16.079 airport it's a mirror. It's He's like it's a mirror 1579 01:38:16.199 --> 01:38:19.199 image of a checkpoint Charlie in the inner German border. 1580 01:38:19.600 --> 01:38:21.640 You know, He's like these a bunch of nicarag was 1581 01:38:21.680 --> 01:38:24.159 running around acting like they're the Stazi. You know. He's 1582 01:38:24.239 --> 01:38:27.319 like this is and I mean that spoke for itself. 1583 01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:32.439 So even when even when Stalinism, even when the even 1584 01:38:32.479 --> 01:38:35.159 when the even when the war's up pack kind of 1585 01:38:35.199 --> 01:38:38.199 like even after sixty eight, and I mean even before 1586 01:38:38.399 --> 01:38:40.920 like putting six days on the formal breach, you know, 1587 01:38:40.960 --> 01:38:43.359 with the new Left, even when like nobody in France, 1588 01:38:43.520 --> 01:38:46.359 nobody in the Netherlands, like even comedies, I mean like 1589 01:38:46.600 --> 01:38:49.479 looked like the Soviet Union for inspiration, like you better 1590 01:38:49.600 --> 01:38:52.640 believe that, like hundreds of millions of people in Africa 1591 01:38:52.720 --> 01:38:56.199 and Latin America, you know, in Indonesia, like they did, 1592 01:38:56.720 --> 01:38:58.880 you know, like that's they looked at that as like wow, 1593 01:38:58.960 --> 01:39:01.359 this this is a great model of progress. And you 1594 01:39:01.439 --> 01:39:04.119 know where we we don't need to suffer, you know, 1595 01:39:04.319 --> 01:39:07.399 the we don't need to suffer the pain of exploitation 1596 01:39:07.640 --> 01:39:10.680 to reach you know, uh, the bounty of of of 1597 01:39:10.800 --> 01:39:15.640 technive technology and and plenty and modern productive, productive techniques. 1598 01:39:15.840 --> 01:39:17.199 You know, all we have to do is sign on 1599 01:39:17.319 --> 01:39:19.399 with the Soviet block and we'll get all those things. 1600 01:39:19.760 --> 01:39:22.359 And plus like you know, they're gonna they're gonna lead us, 1601 01:39:22.520 --> 01:39:25.000 They're gonna lead us to this tilleric utopia because eventually 1602 01:39:25.000 --> 01:39:28.600 we're gonna fight America. I mean like that, and yeah, 1603 01:39:28.680 --> 01:39:33.399 within that, like the godfathers and neo conservitism, like they 1604 01:39:33.520 --> 01:39:37.199 became like on that target list ironically, Like that's why 1605 01:39:37.239 --> 01:39:39.520 I like communists like a Frankenstein monster. Like a lot 1606 01:39:39.560 --> 01:39:42.760 of people who are like called which is the meaning 1607 01:39:42.880 --> 01:39:44.199 was term, but a lot of people are called like 1608 01:39:44.279 --> 01:39:47.119 anti Semitic people are like, oh, how can you say that? 1609 01:39:47.199 --> 01:39:49.680 You know, Communism was you know, emerged from the Jewish 1610 01:39:49.680 --> 01:39:53.119 world of social existence. The Soviet Union hated Jews. It's like, well, 1611 01:39:53.640 --> 01:39:56.960 there's such a thing as like, you know, there's such 1612 01:39:56.960 --> 01:39:59.039 a thing as you know, a bale of prague. Okay, 1613 01:40:00.720 --> 01:40:03.199 like you create something and it gets out of control 1614 01:40:03.680 --> 01:40:07.520 or it turns on you. But it's also too like 1615 01:40:07.760 --> 01:40:10.800 ideologies aren't any like one thing. It's like you can't 1616 01:40:10.840 --> 01:40:14.359 say like communism was Jewish or just not Jewish or that. 1617 01:40:14.840 --> 01:40:17.920 You know, the coalition that created it in Russia, you know, 1618 01:40:18.039 --> 01:40:20.319 consisted of like X Y Z kind of people and 1619 01:40:20.399 --> 01:40:24.319 nobody else. The Soviet it was a weird coalition of 1620 01:40:24.920 --> 01:40:29.720 like indigenous Slavs, uh, you know who who hated the 1621 01:40:29.840 --> 01:40:34.600 European overcast, you know, Uh, they were aligned with a 1622 01:40:34.720 --> 01:40:39.319 slightly more cosmopolitan element, you know of of Ashkenazi Jews 1623 01:40:39.359 --> 01:40:44.239 who hated that same overcast for different reasons. And these 1624 01:40:44.239 --> 01:40:47.119 people don't really like each other, but they had common 1625 01:40:47.239 --> 01:40:50.920 enemies and common interests. And when that fell apart in 1626 01:40:51.199 --> 01:40:55.079 in large measure because uh, the situation of the Jewish 1627 01:40:55.119 --> 01:40:57.840 people are internationally totally changed after Nuremberg again for the 1628 01:40:57.920 --> 01:41:02.159 Delphin Declaration. Yeah, they stop keeping up appearances at all. 1629 01:41:04.399 --> 01:41:06.439 And yeah, I agree with YACKI basically that if you 1630 01:41:06.479 --> 01:41:10.560 were on the right after a after about ninety fifty 1631 01:41:10.600 --> 01:41:13.479 three fifty four forty five, they were running around like 1632 01:41:13.479 --> 01:41:15.960 a John Bircher like calling for the death of Ivan, 1633 01:41:16.119 --> 01:41:19.600 you were, you were a fucking idiot, I mean basically 1634 01:41:19.680 --> 01:41:25.560 because it Russian's definitely like the Soviet Union definitely wasn't it. 1635 01:41:25.640 --> 01:41:28.680 Then Russian honestly is not really your friend if you're 1636 01:41:28.760 --> 01:41:32.079 a white western man. But they're not really your enemy either, 1637 01:41:32.720 --> 01:41:36.479 I mean, and it's they as a hedge against people 1638 01:41:36.520 --> 01:41:39.000 who really are your enemy. Is better that they existently 1639 01:41:39.079 --> 01:41:42.960 not exist. But that's probably a subject for whatever episode. 1640 01:41:43.560 --> 01:41:46.960 But yeah, the but the Cold War, the way to 1641 01:41:47.079 --> 01:41:50.439 understand it in very raw terms, especially in the Kennedy 1642 01:41:50.479 --> 01:41:53.520 era before things got a little bit more complicated through 1643 01:41:53.560 --> 01:41:55.720 the taunt and then like when the Colder jumped off 1644 01:41:55.760 --> 01:42:02.159 again into Earnest in ninety it's not it's not reductions 1645 01:42:02.239 --> 01:42:05.079 to say that there really was a quote colored revolt underway. 1646 01:42:06.279 --> 01:42:10.079 This was the question of the day in power, political 1647 01:42:10.119 --> 01:42:13.760 and military terms. It was very much led from Moscow. 1648 01:42:14.199 --> 01:42:22.840 It was facilitated by warsaw pacts, arms, logistics, equipment, foodstuffs, technology, manpower, everything, 1649 01:42:23.760 --> 01:42:28.920 and that's what was on the table. Yeah, there was 1650 01:42:28.960 --> 01:42:32.760 no deeper nuances to like the ideology that had created it. 1651 01:42:33.479 --> 01:42:39.199 But in uh and as the world that stood when 1652 01:42:39.239 --> 01:42:41.720 Kennedy took the oath of office, like the Cold War 1653 01:42:41.920 --> 01:42:43.760 was what I just described, and that was a very 1654 01:42:43.800 --> 01:42:47.479 real thing, you know, Like I said, there were yeah, 1655 01:42:47.520 --> 01:42:50.159 guys like Yaki, guys I got a Reamer Yaqui was 1656 01:42:50.199 --> 01:42:51.720 dead by then. But what he'd been saying before, and 1657 01:42:51.760 --> 01:42:56.279 what Reamer was saying until the d die was you know, uh, 1658 01:42:57.159 --> 01:42:59.359 you get if you're a European, you know who's under 1659 01:42:59.359 --> 01:43:02.000 occupation and which all which they all were. I mean 1660 01:43:02.039 --> 01:43:04.000 it's still this day, but in those days, you know, 1661 01:43:04.079 --> 01:43:07.119 the Red Army was also in Berlin. But uh, you know, 1662 01:43:07.159 --> 01:43:08.760 I said, you need to be very careful about what 1663 01:43:08.840 --> 01:43:13.079 you wished for and in and and and then advocating that, 1664 01:43:13.239 --> 01:43:16.000 you know, the Soviet Union should be destroyed because it's 1665 01:43:16.039 --> 01:43:18.399 really the only hedge against the traditional enemy of Europe. 1666 01:43:18.800 --> 01:43:22.479 And I agree with that, but uh, for our purposes, 1667 01:43:24.840 --> 01:43:27.000 I have besides the world situation as it was in 1668 01:43:27.119 --> 01:43:29.439 ken of the other of office, because like people this 1669 01:43:29.560 --> 01:43:32.399 idea like oh, you know, what a bunch of horse ship, 1670 01:43:32.439 --> 01:43:34.560 we got to go fight the communists and now or 1671 01:43:34.680 --> 01:43:36.159 or they'll be over here, like that was not what 1672 01:43:36.319 --> 01:43:38.159 was on the table. And that's not what anybody thought. 1673 01:43:38.680 --> 01:43:41.359 And the potredominant theory. Wasn't this like crazy thing that 1674 01:43:41.520 --> 01:43:44.399 John Bircher's thought or that crazy general's thought, like this 1675 01:43:44.560 --> 01:43:47.560 was actually happening like huge swaths of the planet or 1676 01:43:47.640 --> 01:43:53.880 going red. Okay, Stalinism had real cachet and you know, 1677 01:43:54.159 --> 01:43:59.920 a huge in in in in one huge global popular 1678 01:44:01.079 --> 01:44:05.319 and the entire like Raizon Detras. Opposedly, neurim Berg was 1679 01:44:05.359 --> 01:44:07.640 we're gonna create this world society. I know, we even 1680 01:44:07.680 --> 01:44:10.880 have the United Nations and so okay, well if like 1681 01:44:11.399 --> 01:44:13.600 you know, at that at that time, and then there's 1682 01:44:13.600 --> 01:44:16.119 about like and I think there's about like five billion 1683 01:44:16.159 --> 01:44:18.399 people in the world. It's like, well, if like four 1684 01:44:18.479 --> 01:44:21.439 billion of those five million people like think that communism 1685 01:44:21.520 --> 01:44:24.359 is great, you've got a problem. Okay. I mean that's 1686 01:44:24.359 --> 01:44:27.239 what the Cold War was about. It wasn't about you know, 1687 01:44:27.239 --> 01:44:30.279 when I walk outside Terry Hood, Indiana, you know there's 1688 01:44:30.279 --> 01:44:32.279 gonna be some there's gonna be some chinaman with a 1689 01:44:32.319 --> 01:44:34.119 red star in his head and being it. You know, 1690 01:44:34.199 --> 01:44:36.800 it's gonna like fucking you know, charge me and and 1691 01:44:37.000 --> 01:44:40.960 like you know, turn me into fucking sashimi and like 1692 01:44:41.119 --> 01:44:43.640 enslave my wife and you know, make everybody's go to 1693 01:44:43.680 --> 01:44:46.359 the drive in and watch like shitty communist movies. Nobody likes. 1694 01:44:46.560 --> 01:44:49.640 Like that's not what people thought. Maybe some people thought that, 1695 01:44:49.880 --> 01:44:51.920 but that's not you know, like that, that's not what 1696 01:44:52.119 --> 01:44:54.119 underlay the Cold War, and like people like, man. 1697 01:44:55.399 --> 01:44:57.439 Well, let me let me ask you another question. It 1698 01:44:57.840 --> 01:45:00.680 almost makes it almost makes it sound like you could, 1699 01:45:01.560 --> 01:45:07.279 like somebody would say that they're reactionaries and how you 1700 01:45:07.359 --> 01:45:09.920 know how people on the right are always just we're 1701 01:45:09.920 --> 01:45:14.439 all reactionaries. It makes it sound like if the if 1702 01:45:14.479 --> 01:45:17.720 the third world is turning red and these dominoes are falling, 1703 01:45:18.399 --> 01:45:21.039 there's a reason why they're doing it, and they're reacting 1704 01:45:21.279 --> 01:45:27.520 to what they're seeing happening to Europe. Basically, yeah, and. 1705 01:45:27.560 --> 01:45:29.640 It seems like that's the case too. And that's why 1706 01:45:30.439 --> 01:45:32.079 I mean today there's something that is I spend a 1707 01:45:32.119 --> 01:45:35.079 lot of time. I spent a lot of time reading 1708 01:45:35.119 --> 01:45:36.920 about and kind of studying as much as they can 1709 01:45:37.079 --> 01:45:40.800 what uh what what what what some of these like 1710 01:45:40.880 --> 01:45:43.319 Middle Eastern Nazi the actors are doing. And a bunch 1711 01:45:43.359 --> 01:45:45.920 of these guys like a popular Front deliberies at Palestine 1712 01:45:46.000 --> 01:45:49.560 General Command, like who who are big time a lie 1713 01:45:49.800 --> 01:45:53.159 with Worsaw act like they flipped his lomic like very 1714 01:45:53.279 --> 01:45:57.000 profoundly okay, and like very immediately after the wall came 1715 01:45:57.039 --> 01:45:58.680 now and like some people be like, oh, you know, 1716 01:45:59.479 --> 01:46:02.199 those guys just being mercenary and doing what they have 1717 01:46:02.319 --> 01:46:04.359 to do to keep you know, money and weapons flowing. 1718 01:46:04.560 --> 01:46:06.600 I don't think it's that simple, man. I think to 1719 01:46:06.680 --> 01:46:09.359 your point, a lot of these guys they were basically 1720 01:46:10.279 --> 01:46:13.359 they basically had contempt for like the features of capitalist 1721 01:46:13.439 --> 01:46:17.600 modernity that they considered to be like most offensive. You know, 1722 01:46:17.640 --> 01:46:21.279 whether it's like sexual essentiousness or you know, like the 1723 01:46:21.399 --> 01:46:24.680 erosion of uh of of meaningful roles for men and 1724 01:46:24.760 --> 01:46:29.399 women or you know, like mixing between races or you know, pornography, 1725 01:46:31.159 --> 01:46:34.600 and I there there is a certain puritanical aspect of 1726 01:46:34.680 --> 01:46:37.760 communism as it manifested in the Third World, but even otherwise, 1727 01:46:38.199 --> 01:46:40.600 you know, like that was one of the things the 1728 01:46:40.760 --> 01:46:43.720 uh that was that was a cause of refrain. There's 1729 01:46:43.760 --> 01:46:45.960 like I'll get the fuck device and stuff in the DDR, 1730 01:46:46.479 --> 01:46:49.600 you know, like I mean there was like not like narcotics, 1731 01:46:49.640 --> 01:46:52.680 but like prostitution and sex stuff and all kinds of 1732 01:46:53.000 --> 01:46:57.600 really crummy social ills. But at least the official line 1733 01:46:57.800 --> 01:47:02.960 was that this stuff nasty, it's it's it's it's it's deplorable. Uh, 1734 01:47:03.239 --> 01:47:05.119 this is the kind of thing characteristic in the Capital 1735 01:47:05.239 --> 01:47:07.000 is West, Like we don't have any truck with that, 1736 01:47:07.239 --> 01:47:09.640 and and this kind of thing should should be identified 1737 01:47:09.720 --> 01:47:12.960 and stopped out wherever we find it. So yeah, I 1738 01:47:13.000 --> 01:47:15.640 think there's an aspect of that and uh and yeah, 1739 01:47:15.720 --> 01:47:18.039 that's but that was that was the jockey's old point 1740 01:47:18.199 --> 01:47:23.000 and some of the people he inspired subsequent, like Thompson 1741 01:47:23.760 --> 01:47:26.840 and like and like James Maddle who a lot of 1742 01:47:26.840 --> 01:47:29.079 people think it was a crank. I actually hold him 1743 01:47:29.079 --> 01:47:32.159 in a lot of steam. Uh. They that that was 1744 01:47:32.199 --> 01:47:34.640 the point is the op points that Washington and New 1745 01:47:34.760 --> 01:47:38.560 Yorker are in Los Angeles are or help a lot 1746 01:47:38.640 --> 01:47:41.479 more quote unquote red and Moscow in East Berlin ever 1747 01:47:41.560 --> 01:47:44.359 were ever will be. So yeah, there's an aspect of 1748 01:47:44.399 --> 01:47:46.439 that that's a kind of a good question, and it's 1749 01:47:46.479 --> 01:47:49.279 like a it's like a question, is it quite It's 1750 01:47:49.279 --> 01:47:52.359 like a theoretical philosophical aspect to it, like we just raised, 1751 01:47:52.399 --> 01:47:56.279 but there's also like a practical aspect and in concrete terms, 1752 01:47:56.319 --> 01:47:58.079 the way people we are like leading their lives, you know, 1753 01:47:58.159 --> 01:47:59.720 like you raised two that's what That's why I raised 1754 01:47:59.720 --> 01:48:02.880 the use of these Middle Eastern peoples and stuff, because 1755 01:48:03.319 --> 01:48:04.520 I was I think they're kind of like a bell 1756 01:48:04.600 --> 01:48:07.720 weather for sort of radical tendencies. But I mean, that's 1757 01:48:08.319 --> 01:48:10.039 that's my I've got my own thoughts on that, and 1758 01:48:10.119 --> 01:48:12.520 that's that is like way too far outside of scope. 1759 01:48:12.600 --> 01:48:18.319 But yeah, i'll uh i'll uh i'll uh I'll try. 1760 01:48:18.359 --> 01:48:19.760 I'll try and get to the point and I wrap 1761 01:48:19.840 --> 01:48:21.600 this up to realize, been a rambling for a minute, 1762 01:48:22.439 --> 01:48:22.720 but the. 1763 01:48:22.880 --> 01:48:25.960 Uh, I can ask questions to get people doing that. 1764 01:48:27.199 --> 01:48:30.640 But no, no, I I I appreciate you asking questions, man, 1765 01:48:30.720 --> 01:48:32.520 Like I I appreciate that, like the give and take. 1766 01:48:32.600 --> 01:48:34.560 I mean you, I mean you always you always in 1767 01:48:34.720 --> 01:48:37.399 situ way like meaningful stuff that i't a lot of 1768 01:48:37.439 --> 01:48:40.000 time I haven't thought about. But also it's just, uh 1769 01:48:40.159 --> 01:48:42.960 it helps me because I I have wore sometimes that 1770 01:48:43.520 --> 01:48:45.600 like I go out too many tangents because my brain 1771 01:48:45.720 --> 01:48:49.800 just sort of works that way. But yeah, I way 1772 01:48:50.600 --> 01:48:54.640 interject whenever you want and don't. I'm not gonna feel 1773 01:48:54.680 --> 01:49:02.239 explated or something. But the uh, the the uh yeah, 1774 01:49:02.319 --> 01:49:05.399 Kennedy's basically I mean would basically underlay all this too 1775 01:49:06.119 --> 01:49:10.439 in uh again kind of like raw strategic terms too, 1776 01:49:10.680 --> 01:49:15.920 like without I mean, aside from the politics. Kennedy realized 1777 01:49:15.920 --> 01:49:19.479 that you need a lot of you for lack of 1778 01:49:20.720 --> 01:49:23.079 I forgive me if this sounds like flippant or silly, 1779 01:49:23.239 --> 01:49:25.800 but you need like a number of mini options in 1780 01:49:25.880 --> 01:49:29.119 military affairs in terms of your response. Okay, it can't 1781 01:49:29.199 --> 01:49:33.560 just be either like massive assault, massive counter value assault, 1782 01:49:33.840 --> 01:49:36.600 or some kind of like inglorious retreat or doing nothing, 1783 01:49:37.119 --> 01:49:40.159 you know. I mean that's uh, it's like Highlight said 1784 01:49:40.199 --> 01:49:42.920 the Starship Troopers like this, which is like a thinly 1785 01:49:43.000 --> 01:49:46.920 veiled metaphor. I think the critique of a of a 1786 01:49:47.319 --> 01:49:52.760 like Eisenhower, Truman and Eisenhower era military thinking. Like some 1787 01:49:52.920 --> 01:49:56.560 young officer Cannedy says it like this grizzled like invagery captain, Like, 1788 01:49:56.640 --> 01:49:58.680 what the hell, what the hell do we need conventional 1789 01:49:58.760 --> 01:50:01.199 invagery for? And the captain it's like, let me ask 1790 01:50:01.239 --> 01:50:03.680 you something like if a child's misbehaving, you cut his 1791 01:50:03.800 --> 01:50:06.119 head off or you stink him, you know, like you 1792 01:50:07.520 --> 01:50:09.760 you know, you know, you'll just like maintain a hatchets 1793 01:50:09.800 --> 01:50:13.880 like in the misbehaving child. You know. That's uh which 1794 01:50:13.920 --> 01:50:18.399 seems like the Coby kind of silly, but it's actually poignant. 1795 01:50:18.479 --> 01:50:24.000 And uh yeah, that's something we take for granted as 1796 01:50:24.199 --> 01:50:26.960 the way things develop, particularly through the Reagan era and 1797 01:50:27.000 --> 01:50:29.600 in terms of military affairs. I mean, but in the 1798 01:50:29.720 --> 01:50:32.720 nineteen and in the nineteen fifties, really through like fifteen 1799 01:50:32.760 --> 01:50:35.840 ninety sixty, people were literally talking that way, like hey, 1800 01:50:35.880 --> 01:50:38.600 we've got nuclear arms we can threaten anybody with, you know, 1801 01:50:38.720 --> 01:50:42.000 basically like counter value genocide, Like why why do we 1802 01:50:42.079 --> 01:50:44.399 need why do we need invest around with conventional forces? 1803 01:50:44.920 --> 01:50:48.920 You know? And that's that seems crazy, but that but 1804 01:50:49.600 --> 01:50:51.520 it wasn't just I'm not talking about like I'm not 1805 01:50:51.600 --> 01:50:54.279 just talking about like goofballs like in the media or 1806 01:50:54.359 --> 01:50:56.720 something like you equivalent of like internet guys of the day, 1807 01:50:57.119 --> 01:51:00.239 Like I mean like like actual guys would out and 1808 01:51:00.279 --> 01:51:03.960 policymaking circles, you know, and guys who had uh, who 1809 01:51:04.000 --> 01:51:06.760 had a chest full of ribbons and and and a 1810 01:51:06.840 --> 01:51:09.600 half full of brass like you know, fucking talking this 1811 01:51:09.720 --> 01:51:17.439 white man. But it's Macnamara. And then that's why we'll 1812 01:51:17.439 --> 01:51:19.239 get into this I g as we as we proceed 1813 01:51:19.359 --> 01:51:23.039 in our series. But the roots of the revolution and 1814 01:51:23.119 --> 01:51:27.960 military affairs are here with Macnamara, and Macnamara one of 1815 01:51:28.000 --> 01:51:31.359 the things he diligently worked towards, I mean, the Vietnam 1816 01:51:31.399 --> 01:51:33.640 War ended up taking off like a huge amount of 1817 01:51:33.720 --> 01:51:39.079 his time and labors, but obviously but uh, developing a 1818 01:51:39.199 --> 01:51:43.800 conventional capability not just for the purpose of flexible response, 1819 01:51:44.199 --> 01:51:48.319 but to really make like a devastating conventional capability the 1820 01:51:48.399 --> 01:51:52.159 kind of sphere point of American power that very much 1821 01:51:52.239 --> 01:51:55.479 came from Magnamara. And he realized the way the world 1822 01:51:55.640 --> 01:51:59.920 was going, and uh, part of it was he realized, 1823 01:52:00.079 --> 01:52:02.359 you know what we just talked about that you know, 1824 01:52:02.520 --> 01:52:06.279 nuclear arms are purpose for a very very specific exigency 1825 01:52:07.319 --> 01:52:12.159 that almost never ever ever occurs. But also just you know, uh, 1826 01:52:12.560 --> 01:52:15.560 the dawn of the information age, the uh, you know, 1827 01:52:15.800 --> 01:52:20.880 the kind of rapid, uh punctuated development of all these 1828 01:52:20.920 --> 01:52:24.920 applied technologies. You know, like things were becoming possible in 1829 01:52:24.960 --> 01:52:28.520 the battlefield that were unthinkable even you know, twenty years ago, 1830 01:52:29.119 --> 01:52:32.119 you know, and and in the in the then present, 1831 01:52:33.000 --> 01:52:42.439 it's the uh and Macnamer Macnair's fortune is really during 1832 01:52:42.479 --> 01:52:45.279 the Kennedy administration. I mean, if you need any more 1833 01:52:45.319 --> 01:52:49.119 evidence that Kennedy really did kind of marry the US 1834 01:52:49.199 --> 01:52:51.960 and the Republic of Vietnam in terms of in terms 1835 01:52:52.000 --> 01:52:59.079 of you know, uh, global security policy. Uh, it was 1836 01:52:59.239 --> 01:53:03.600 uh it was mac damara who who put together really 1837 01:53:03.640 --> 01:53:08.159 the first military advisory group that landed in Vietnam, like 1838 01:53:08.239 --> 01:53:11.239 in real depth. I mean, yeah, going back to Eisenhower, 1839 01:53:11.479 --> 01:53:14.000 there's been you know, advisor on the ground what became 1840 01:53:14.079 --> 01:53:18.239 Military Assistants Command of Vietnam, you know mc V. It was, uh, 1841 01:53:18.920 --> 01:53:21.600 it was during was when Kennedy was still alive. It 1842 01:53:21.640 --> 01:53:22.840 was during the last you know, like year and a 1843 01:53:22.840 --> 01:53:25.880 half of his life or whatever. The mac namara raised 1844 01:53:25.920 --> 01:53:29.439 force levels to about for a few hundred about to 1845 01:53:29.520 --> 01:53:33.600 about seventeen thousand, okay, and I mean this was well 1846 01:53:33.640 --> 01:53:37.600 before the Golf of Tonkin incident, Okay, in August nineteen 1847 01:53:37.600 --> 01:53:39.880 sixty four, after mister Kennedy was dead, of course. But 1848 01:53:40.039 --> 01:53:44.359 the uh, the and the Golf of Tonkin is a 1849 01:53:44.439 --> 01:53:46.960 tricky issue too, Like I I don't know how to 1850 01:53:47.039 --> 01:53:49.880 approach that because it warns more attention than I'm giving 1851 01:53:49.920 --> 01:53:54.720 it right now. But people talk about it like I 1852 01:53:55.039 --> 01:53:57.319 know that I'm gonna get it, like hate messages for this, 1853 01:53:58.039 --> 01:54:01.159 because I do. Anyway, from the libertarians, a libertarians have 1854 01:54:01.239 --> 01:54:06.800 this idea about the uh about about Article one an 1855 01:54:06.880 --> 01:54:10.399 Article two, like expressly delegated powers they do these things 1856 01:54:10.439 --> 01:54:12.600 like they do the gold standard, like something like they're 1857 01:54:12.600 --> 01:54:16.520 Sacroe stack and never ever change or something. But formal 1858 01:54:16.600 --> 01:54:21.760 declarations of war between powers that enjoy equalities of status 1859 01:54:21.840 --> 01:54:25.039 and a multipolar world where if have planet's like divided up, 1860 01:54:25.279 --> 01:54:28.479 you know, between these information powers and where like a 1861 01:54:28.600 --> 01:54:31.239 change in the status of relations comes from like a 1862 01:54:31.359 --> 01:54:34.199 formal declaration of war. And this is a recognized policy 1863 01:54:34.239 --> 01:54:39.119 instrument that doesn't happen anymore. Maybe that's bad, maybe it's not, 1864 01:54:39.319 --> 01:54:42.760 but it doesn't happen anymore. And since Nuremberg. It's not 1865 01:54:42.920 --> 01:54:45.800 thinkable for that to happen anymore so for guys to 1866 01:54:45.840 --> 01:54:48.079 come out and be like, well, actually it requires a 1867 01:54:48.159 --> 01:54:51.079 declaration of war. Like, no, that's not how things work, okay, 1868 01:54:51.880 --> 01:54:54.159 And I'm not gonna like worry aboudy the next position 1869 01:54:54.199 --> 01:54:55.800 for the next hour, and like why it doesn't work 1870 01:54:55.880 --> 01:54:57.840 that way? But it doesn't. And you've got to take 1871 01:54:57.920 --> 01:55:01.520 my word for that, okay. And and Article two and 1872 01:55:01.600 --> 01:55:04.359 expressing delegated power that is not negotiable and does not 1873 01:55:04.560 --> 01:55:08.399 change with the times. Is the president being the commander 1874 01:55:08.439 --> 01:55:11.800 in chief okay? And the president ability to command forces 1875 01:55:11.960 --> 01:55:16.960 is not contingent upon a nineteenth century style declaration of war. Okay. However, 1876 01:55:17.199 --> 01:55:20.279 considering Congress controls the purse strings, it's a good idea 1877 01:55:20.520 --> 01:55:23.119 to make your case for why you should get, you know, 1878 01:55:23.279 --> 01:55:26.079 endless money in cargo to wage the war. That's what 1879 01:55:26.159 --> 01:55:29.560 the Gulf of Talking was about, Okay. Was it a ruse? 1880 01:55:30.119 --> 01:55:33.119 Maybe it was, Maybe it wasn't. It doesn't matter. Josh 1881 01:55:33.319 --> 01:55:36.439 was gonna get his war somehow, or his mandate somehow. 1882 01:55:36.520 --> 01:55:40.119 With Johnson's war, Congress had to find a way to 1883 01:55:40.239 --> 01:55:44.640 give him the uh, give him the uh, the the 1884 01:55:45.279 --> 01:55:48.520 the Tabula rossa to do so and to and also 1885 01:55:48.560 --> 01:55:50.960 signal of the Pentagon that they were willing to they 1886 01:55:51.000 --> 01:55:53.239 were willing to foot the bill. And this is the 1887 01:55:53.279 --> 01:55:56.479 way it came together, you know, basically to protect the record, 1888 01:55:56.880 --> 01:55:59.199 you know, because America, I mean, he's the fiction of oh, 1889 01:55:59.199 --> 01:56:03.079 we're always fighting defensive wars. Hey, we were attacked. And finally, 1890 01:56:03.399 --> 01:56:07.479 like we talked about in the last episode, there was 1891 01:56:07.720 --> 01:56:10.239 a lot of fictions that went into the drawing of 1892 01:56:10.319 --> 01:56:14.600 the map and into China after nineteen fifty five, and 1893 01:56:14.920 --> 01:56:17.920 whether North and South Vietnam or truly sovereign states that 1894 01:56:18.039 --> 01:56:21.279 was even really clear because the only the seventieth parallel 1895 01:56:21.359 --> 01:56:25.000 was supposed to be a stop gap measure pending you 1896 01:56:25.079 --> 01:56:29.720 know name pending country wide elections were by the to 1897 01:56:29.800 --> 01:56:32.520 be a single seat of government and that didn't happen. 1898 01:56:33.680 --> 01:56:37.000 And the UH and and the DM government claimed initially 1899 01:56:37.119 --> 01:56:39.239 that that was because the NLF, you know, the viet Cong, 1900 01:56:39.720 --> 01:56:41.720 you know, had resorted to violence in order to in 1901 01:56:41.840 --> 01:56:45.119 order to sway in order to sway you know, opinion 1902 01:56:45.199 --> 01:56:51.399 in their favor to terror. So these elections are definitely postponed. So, 1903 01:56:51.439 --> 01:56:54.319 I mean, it's not as simple as well you know, 1904 01:56:54.760 --> 01:56:57.119 the Republic of Vietnam's a sovereign country and it's under 1905 01:56:57.119 --> 01:56:59.319 assaults and we have an obligation to them moral as 1906 01:56:59.359 --> 01:57:03.279 well as duristic. Like the beginning it is that it's 1907 01:57:03.319 --> 01:57:05.239 not as it's not so simple the sailor the Golf 1908 01:57:05.279 --> 01:57:08.840 of Tonkin incident, for the alleged incident, and the resolution 1909 01:57:09.359 --> 01:57:12.680 was like some ruse by evil mister LBJ to you know, 1910 01:57:12.800 --> 01:57:15.159 get a war man date or so mucho a lie 1911 01:57:15.199 --> 01:57:17.640 and oh, by the way, that's illegitimate anyway, because there's 1912 01:57:17.680 --> 01:57:20.520 no declaration of war like it's eighteen forty like not. 1913 01:57:20.760 --> 01:57:23.239 That's not the way he approached it. And like I said, 1914 01:57:23.239 --> 01:57:25.520 I know people are gonna send me like fucking messages. 1915 01:57:25.520 --> 01:57:27.800 I don't care if I'm right and you're wrong, but 1916 01:57:29.159 --> 01:57:32.039 that's important and I'm I'm the last person who's gonna 1917 01:57:32.079 --> 01:57:35.359 defend LBJ in the record. But whether it been Kennedy, 1918 01:57:35.439 --> 01:57:38.840 whether it been Ike, whether it had been mister Nixon, uh, 1919 01:57:39.520 --> 01:57:41.880 they probably would have finastic goal better than LBJ did. 1920 01:57:42.000 --> 01:57:44.039 But they would have gotten their warman day in some 1921 01:57:44.239 --> 01:57:49.760 similar way. Okay, they just would have Okay, that's that's 1922 01:57:50.159 --> 01:57:59.079 not arguable. Obviously, after the Gulf of Tonkin resolution was 1923 01:58:00.119 --> 01:58:09.319 m was rushed through. Uh that's uh basically the escalation 1924 01:58:09.479 --> 01:58:12.359 over Vietnam like but it literally began like with the 1925 01:58:12.399 --> 01:58:17.399 air war, and inially it was massive intiliatory air strikes 1926 01:58:19.239 --> 01:58:24.319 against naval targets and and and targets within a North 1927 01:58:24.399 --> 01:58:27.600 Vietnam proper that were said to, you know, be facilitating 1928 01:58:27.680 --> 01:58:32.399 it's it's it's it's blue water navy capability, which you 1929 01:58:32.439 --> 01:58:35.720 know supposedly is what had brought you know, American vessels 1930 01:58:35.760 --> 01:58:40.560 under assault. But from there, I mean the uh, the 1931 01:58:40.720 --> 01:58:45.479 kind of fix was in and people can I mean 1932 01:58:45.960 --> 01:58:48.520 the fixes in run characterizecuse. Like I said, I believe 1933 01:58:48.560 --> 01:58:50.760 within the bound rationality of the Cold War, the Vietnam 1934 01:58:50.760 --> 01:58:54.399 War had to be fought, okay, and I I stand 1935 01:58:54.439 --> 01:58:58.560 by that position. But mag Namara, even it had that 1936 01:58:58.680 --> 01:59:02.319 not been the case, you know, man if in this 1937 01:59:02.399 --> 01:59:05.840 area defense, uh, you know, like a he can an officer, 1938 01:59:06.000 --> 01:59:09.000 I mean, you're you're accountable the commander in chief. Okay, 1939 01:59:09.079 --> 01:59:12.000 I mean it's not it's not like Magnamara. Ahead. You know, 1940 01:59:12.439 --> 01:59:14.720 first of all, you can't you can't need some conscientest 1941 01:59:14.800 --> 01:59:19.199 objector and fulfill your obligations in the offense of secondary defense. 1942 01:59:19.319 --> 01:59:23.319 But whatever McNamara did or didn't do, I mean, he 1943 01:59:23.439 --> 01:59:25.760 was executing the owners of the commander in chief, and 1944 01:59:26.239 --> 01:59:29.680 policy does not originated with the Secretary Defense's Office or 1945 01:59:29.680 --> 01:59:33.680 at the Department of the Army or Depentagon. Frankly, However, 1946 01:59:34.279 --> 01:59:37.000 as we get into McNamara's success or as true successor, 1947 01:59:37.079 --> 01:59:41.119 Melvin Laird, I think I think, I think, I think 1948 01:59:41.199 --> 01:59:43.359 that the career of Lair and the kind of the 1949 01:59:43.439 --> 01:59:48.399 trajectory of his tenure and his machinations against Nixon and Kissinger, 1950 01:59:48.960 --> 01:59:50.560 I think that was kind of the origin of the 1951 01:59:50.640 --> 01:59:53.199 true like modern deep state as we think of it. 1952 01:59:53.560 --> 01:59:56.720 There's always been shadow government, shadow governments, not the deep state. 1953 01:59:56.840 --> 02:00:02.239 That's something that was emergent, in my opinion, really interested 1954 02:00:02.239 --> 02:00:09.079 around the nineteen seventies. But in uh, in any event, 1955 02:00:09.359 --> 02:00:14.000 uh Magma anyway, he he uh, you know, Magna visited 1956 02:00:14.079 --> 02:00:17.039 Vietnam repeatedly, like in person, you know, I mean he 1957 02:00:17.199 --> 02:00:21.840 and and not just not a diplomatic meeting greets, you 1958 02:00:21.880 --> 02:00:24.680 know where he revisited, you know, DM or two and 1959 02:00:24.840 --> 02:00:26.880 go to go to some embassy party and then you know, 1960 02:00:27.000 --> 02:00:29.840 take some like handshake shots of some general I mean 1961 02:00:29.920 --> 02:00:33.920 he he visited mcavee. He he spent time at Long 1962 02:00:34.039 --> 02:00:38.159 Been asking junior officers, like, what's going on here? Is actly? 1963 02:00:38.680 --> 02:00:43.199 You know? Uh? He spent time pouring over uh, you 1964 02:00:43.279 --> 02:00:47.920 know body count statistics that were coming from the title 1965 02:00:48.399 --> 02:00:51.840 uh headquarters you know in the field that you know, 1966 02:00:51.960 --> 02:00:54.840 like DOCTA or whatever, and saying like you know this, 1967 02:00:55.039 --> 02:00:58.000 this isn't right, this is not possible, this idea, it 1968 02:00:58.119 --> 02:01:00.199 was just like this kind of ghoulish warmonger just like 1969 02:01:00.279 --> 02:01:03.479 signing off and everything or you know, somehow enriching himself. 1970 02:01:03.800 --> 02:01:06.479 I mean, Magnemara, we don't need to sit here and 1971 02:01:06.560 --> 02:01:08.760 like feel sad for magnemer He ended his He ended 1972 02:01:08.840 --> 02:01:10.960 up at the World Bank. Subsequently, he had a very 1973 02:01:11.000 --> 02:01:13.319 good life, you know. But but the fact is in 1974 02:01:13.359 --> 02:01:15.359 public life he was ruined. You know. It's like, what 1975 02:01:15.800 --> 02:01:18.479 what great stuff did Macnera get from you know, this 1976 02:01:18.640 --> 02:01:21.319 kind of seventy years of managing the Vietnam War. Like 1977 02:01:21.439 --> 02:01:23.680 it's not it's not like he got like some great 1978 02:01:24.439 --> 02:01:26.640 benefits from this. He knows how he pulled us a 1979 02:01:26.680 --> 02:01:28.920 lens Ski and like was pocketing a billion dollars and 1980 02:01:29.279 --> 02:01:31.399 what he would have been a nobody before, like This 1981 02:01:31.600 --> 02:01:34.000 is like a huge step down, you know, like Magnaver 1982 02:01:34.119 --> 02:01:37.119 didn't get anything by by waging the Vietnam War on 1983 02:01:37.199 --> 02:01:42.199 behalf of Johnson, Like he really didn't. But we're coming 1984 02:01:42.279 --> 02:01:44.720 up in the hour here. Let's I'm gonna get into 1985 02:01:44.720 --> 02:01:47.159 Melvin Laird and the rest of Magnamara next episode, and 1986 02:01:47.239 --> 02:01:50.159 we can do that whatever you want, like even this week. 1987 02:01:51.399 --> 02:01:53.199 And I'll uh, I realized the gind of got it 1988 02:01:53.239 --> 02:01:56.600 cut to the chase. It's just somebody is a personage 1989 02:01:56.680 --> 02:01:59.039 just kind of towering his magnumbry. It warrants a lot 1990 02:01:59.159 --> 02:02:02.359 of attention, like more so than some than some people 1991 02:02:02.439 --> 02:02:04.520 and even some presidents. But yeah, so I hope I didn't. 1992 02:02:04.560 --> 02:02:06.199 I hope I hope I didn't drag it out too 1993 02:02:06.239 --> 02:02:11.479 long for you're okay, great, Yeah, yeah, I figured you 1994 02:02:11.479 --> 02:02:12.800 would have like kind of reined me in if I 1995 02:02:12.920 --> 02:02:16.119 was like point two far on tangents. But yeah, no, 1996 02:02:16.279 --> 02:02:18.640 thank you, Pete. This was really great. Yeah. 1997 02:02:18.760 --> 02:02:22.039 I mean the only reason I interrupted was I had questions. 1998 02:02:22.279 --> 02:02:25.800 So I want to take up that question proper too. 1999 02:02:25.880 --> 02:02:27.680 I'll get a dedicated episode. Maybe it was like the 2000 02:02:27.720 --> 02:02:29.720 bookend when he finished the Cold War. That's like a 2001 02:02:29.840 --> 02:02:32.800 hugely important question and to me especially like I spend 2002 02:02:32.800 --> 02:02:34.439 a lot of time with it, you know, just going 2003 02:02:34.520 --> 02:02:37.079 to my own kind of interest in things. So yeah, no, 2004 02:02:37.199 --> 02:02:39.840 I interject whatever you want, man like please do like 2005 02:02:39.920 --> 02:02:41.520 it helps me organize my thoughts. 2006 02:02:42.399 --> 02:02:45.239 All right, quick plugs so we'll get out. 2007 02:02:45.680 --> 02:02:48.600 Yeah man. Uh as people might have noticed because I 2008 02:02:48.640 --> 02:02:50.720 tweeted it out as well as I announced that on 2009 02:02:50.800 --> 02:02:55.720 my subject hit like steel Storm two. Uh. You know, 2010 02:02:55.800 --> 02:02:59.439 my second science fiction novel. It's been printed, it's it's 2011 02:02:59.479 --> 02:03:02.279 in it send the hands of Imperium Press. I gotta 2012 02:03:02.359 --> 02:03:04.920 touch base on my dear friends there anyway, but they 2013 02:03:05.000 --> 02:03:07.960 physically have it, so I'm gonna get word from them 2014 02:03:08.159 --> 02:03:10.920 when it's gonna go up for sale on imperium press 2015 02:03:10.960 --> 02:03:14.159 dot org, and I'll drop a word of that. In 2016 02:03:14.239 --> 02:03:17.119 the meantime. You can find me, uh you find my 2017 02:03:17.239 --> 02:03:20.239 podcast and so on my long form at substick. It's 2018 02:03:20.319 --> 02:03:23.960 real Thomas seven seven seven dots substack dot com. You 2019 02:03:24.039 --> 02:03:28.239 can find me on Twitter at Triskellian Jahad. The T 2020 02:03:28.600 --> 02:03:31.239 is a number seven. But if you seek me on 2021 02:03:31.319 --> 02:03:33.720 Twitter you should you probably shall. We'll find or just 2022 02:03:33.760 --> 02:03:36.760 like start Thomas seven seven seven. That's basically where I'm 2023 02:03:36.760 --> 02:03:39.680 at where I'm active right now. I am launching the 2024 02:03:39.760 --> 02:03:41.920 YouTube channel by the end of the month, I promise. 2025 02:03:42.199 --> 02:03:44.640 I know it's been delayed and delayed, but by the 2026 02:03:44.880 --> 02:03:47.279 last day in January, and I mean before then, but 2027 02:03:47.840 --> 02:03:51.079 by the end of January, like the channel will launch. 2028 02:03:51.159 --> 02:03:54.960 So please look for that two it's uh Thomas TV 2029 02:03:55.199 --> 02:03:55.760 on YouTube. 2030 02:03:55.960 --> 02:03:57.399 I appreciate it till the next time. 2031 02:03:57.560 --> 02:03:58.960 Like, man, thank you very much. 2032 02:03:59.039 --> 02:04:02.560 Thanks. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea 2033 02:04:02.720 --> 02:04:09.279 Show for a Part seven is eight eight of the 2034 02:04:09.359 --> 02:04:12.840 Cold War series. Thomas seven seven seven. 2035 02:04:13.119 --> 02:04:15.800 How you're doing, sir, I'm very well man, thanks for 2036 02:04:17.520 --> 02:04:20.520 posting me as always. Don't feel bad. I only I 2037 02:04:20.640 --> 02:04:23.520 only know that it's part ocho because that was indicated 2038 02:04:23.560 --> 02:04:25.760 when I joined the meeting that is Cold War with 2039 02:04:25.880 --> 02:04:30.359 Thomas Part eight. You know, like uh, like Jason takes 2040 02:04:30.399 --> 02:04:33.279 me in hand. But it's just like Thomas fuks on zoom. 2041 02:04:34.000 --> 02:04:36.960 But uh, because it may We're going to continue to 2042 02:04:37.000 --> 02:04:40.399 flesh out, you know, the career of Robert McNamara and 2043 02:04:40.399 --> 02:04:44.760 the Vietnam conflict, not just because mcnamarror is a key personage, 2044 02:04:45.439 --> 02:04:49.239 you know in understanding the Cold War, I mean represented 2045 02:04:49.279 --> 02:04:54.119 a certain type truly. You know, people derisively would refer 2046 02:04:54.239 --> 02:04:58.399 to people like McNamara and Thomas Schelling. We'll talk about 2047 02:04:58.760 --> 02:05:01.760 probably the episode after naxt he was another brilliant Shelling. 2048 02:05:01.800 --> 02:05:04.000 I mean he was not a brilliant polymath. He was 2049 02:05:04.039 --> 02:05:08.800 instrumental in Cold War strategic planning and uh, you know 2050 02:05:08.960 --> 02:05:14.279 gaming scenarios that uh that were where in you know, 2051 02:05:14.399 --> 02:05:18.600 a strategy could meaning meaningfully be incorporated into exta technology 2052 02:05:18.640 --> 02:05:22.399 and weapons platforms. And the degree to which the shape 2053 02:05:22.479 --> 02:05:25.720 policy at every level like cannot be overstated. I mean, 2054 02:05:25.720 --> 02:05:27.560 I guess on the one hand, that's obvious because we're 2055 02:05:27.600 --> 02:05:31.199 talking about you know, I mean, I mean the essence 2056 02:05:31.239 --> 02:05:35.119 of the political is war and peace. You know, kind 2057 02:05:35.159 --> 02:05:37.520 of the zenith of war fighting technology is a general 2058 02:05:37.640 --> 02:05:40.560 nuclear war, even if you know, we stipulate that a 2059 02:05:40.600 --> 02:05:43.159 lot of the kind of hysteria around nuclear weapons is 2060 02:05:43.520 --> 02:05:48.880 just that hysteria. But you know, the Shelling was far 2061 02:05:49.000 --> 02:05:52.119 less of a public figure than magnam Era. I mean 2062 02:05:52.199 --> 02:05:56.920 for a few reasons, not uh that that I think 2063 02:05:56.960 --> 02:06:00.359 are obvious. You know, Shelling uh didn't preside over uh 2064 02:06:00.520 --> 02:06:05.600 an active war. We're in you know, American Uh, Americans 2065 02:06:05.600 --> 02:06:12.079 were dying in theater. But Mcnamerica kind of became that 2066 02:06:14.000 --> 02:06:16.479 a figure that the left kind of loved to burn 2067 02:06:16.560 --> 02:06:21.560 an effig, you know, proverbially speaking, And uh, I think he, 2068 02:06:22.439 --> 02:06:25.119 I think he kind of like embodies that era, like 2069 02:06:25.359 --> 02:06:28.520 the era of the technocrat. And I don't I don't 2070 02:06:28.560 --> 02:06:32.239 mean that in punitive terms. I mean certainly that there's 2071 02:06:32.239 --> 02:06:35.600 a lot of men who that that kind of that 2072 02:06:36.039 --> 02:06:40.239 that kind of sociological structure produced, that we're not attractive people, 2073 02:06:40.920 --> 02:06:44.479 and that we're re lacking in in a grounded morality, 2074 02:06:44.600 --> 02:06:47.439 and and we're not, you know, we're not the kind 2075 02:06:47.439 --> 02:06:50.399 of men who one would want sort of guiding policy 2076 02:06:50.520 --> 02:06:54.760 in concrete ways. But you know, McNamara himself was a 2077 02:06:54.800 --> 02:06:57.479 complex person. And to make the point again and again, 2078 02:06:57.640 --> 02:07:00.439 like McNamara was not this guy who was fired to 2079 02:07:00.479 --> 02:07:02.640 be Secretary of Defense. It wasn't like one of these 2080 02:07:02.760 --> 02:07:04.960 kinds of He wasn't one of these guys who really 2081 02:07:05.159 --> 02:07:07.760 had no way of kind of like capturing cloud other 2082 02:07:07.840 --> 02:07:11.520 than going to Washington and and capitalizing on connections. You know, 2083 02:07:11.640 --> 02:07:15.119 they asked him, he didn't ask for them. And like 2084 02:07:15.199 --> 02:07:19.760 we talked about, it's not like mcnamur resigned in disgrace 2085 02:07:19.880 --> 02:07:22.880 or something, you know, I mean, he he went on, uh, 2086 02:07:23.640 --> 02:07:25.520 he went on to be the chairman of the World Bank. 2087 02:07:26.720 --> 02:07:29.000 But at the same time, you know, his name became 2088 02:07:29.079 --> 02:07:33.239 synonymous with the with the kind of grewsome uh calculus 2089 02:07:33.279 --> 02:07:35.840 of the body count, you know with uh you know, 2090 02:07:35.880 --> 02:07:41.840 the kind of the kind of head nerd view of 2091 02:07:42.159 --> 02:07:44.279 that that came to surround the papers. You know. So 2092 02:07:44.319 --> 02:07:46.319 it's not like it's not like market no matter somehow 2093 02:07:46.359 --> 02:07:49.439 like profited immensely from his tenure as Secretary of Defense, 2094 02:07:49.560 --> 02:07:53.239 and you know, his he even when eve when public 2095 02:07:53.279 --> 02:08:00.439 opinion precipitously turned against the war post tet Uh. You 2096 02:08:00.520 --> 02:08:04.920 know it's uh McNamara didn't simply exit stage laugh when 2097 02:08:04.960 --> 02:08:08.520 things went bad. And I I can't, I can't emphasize 2098 02:08:08.600 --> 02:08:10.640 enough to you know, the fact that he served for 2099 02:08:10.760 --> 02:08:15.560 seven years. That's an eternity for a cabinet post, particularly 2100 02:08:15.600 --> 02:08:21.359 for Secretary of Defense, and particularly during uh A wartime administration. 2101 02:08:22.279 --> 02:08:24.479 You know. So, like I said, I I'm sure a 2102 02:08:24.479 --> 02:08:26.359 lot of people are gonna just claim it, I'm some 2103 02:08:26.479 --> 02:08:29.680 kind of Macnamara apologists owing to you know, owing to 2104 02:08:29.800 --> 02:08:34.840 him you know, either like emotional uh factors or you know, 2105 02:08:34.920 --> 02:08:37.199 I'm gonna hero worship. Like neither of those things are true. 2106 02:08:38.279 --> 02:08:43.199 But I at all anyone who hasn't seen uh it, 2107 02:08:43.399 --> 02:08:46.199 I like I said, I I I highly recommend he 2108 02:08:46.319 --> 02:08:52.199 watched the Aeron Morris biopic on On macnamara, where I 2109 02:08:52.239 --> 02:08:54.760 mean you he he interviews the man himself, you know, 2110 02:08:54.800 --> 02:08:58.399 because that's what man what I'm what Morris does. I've 2111 02:08:58.439 --> 02:09:04.800 reserved judgment until one views that Magnamara quoted himself incredibly well. 2112 02:09:04.880 --> 02:09:08.960 And and compare that to one of Morris's subsequent biopics 2113 02:09:09.000 --> 02:09:11.680 about Donald Rumsfeld. He just came who came off just 2114 02:09:11.800 --> 02:09:15.079 as really kind of I mean just really just a 2115 02:09:15.159 --> 02:09:17.960 really really just nasty person, you know, I mean in 2116 02:09:18.000 --> 02:09:20.960 every sense of the word. You know. Uh, I think uh, 2117 02:09:21.079 --> 02:09:23.479 I think compared to I think compared to those who 2118 02:09:23.560 --> 02:09:26.720 followed who are either clowns or just you know, kind 2119 02:09:26.760 --> 02:09:31.319 of you know, cynical uh creeps like Rumsfeld, and I 2120 02:09:31.359 --> 02:09:36.039 think I think mc namara wims very large and uh 2121 02:09:36.479 --> 02:09:41.960 in mostly positive terms. But we left off last episode, 2122 02:09:42.199 --> 02:09:44.359 I believe, talking a bit about the Gulf of Talk 2123 02:09:44.439 --> 02:09:50.159 and resolution and the incident itself. I don't wanna, uh, 2124 02:09:51.039 --> 02:09:53.800 I don't, I don't wanna. I don't want to rehash 2125 02:09:54.079 --> 02:09:58.000 the entire debate as it were, that still surrounds the 2126 02:09:58.119 --> 02:10:02.159 incident that gave rise the Congressional revolution that you know, 2127 02:10:02.319 --> 02:10:08.079 gave Johnson the Tabiola rossa to escalate. Essentially, I I 2128 02:10:08.199 --> 02:10:11.560 just made the point then, as I'll reiterate now that 2129 02:10:12.000 --> 02:10:15.479 for better or worse, and I understand the libertarian argument 2130 02:10:15.840 --> 02:10:19.479 against this UH precedent, and I very much understand the 2131 02:10:19.560 --> 02:10:23.720 kind of constitutionalist objection to it, But for better or worse, 2132 02:10:23.920 --> 02:10:27.239 this is how the business of war and peace is conducted, 2133 02:10:27.319 --> 02:10:30.439 and this is how it's finessed. And policy terms, Okay, 2134 02:10:32.000 --> 02:10:34.840 it's some kind of incidents that identified as a clear 2135 02:10:34.880 --> 02:10:40.079 and present danger or constituting a necessity, you know, UH, 2136 02:10:41.600 --> 02:10:48.079 demanding intervention. You know, Congress affords the executive the UH, 2137 02:10:48.680 --> 02:10:51.880 the ways and means in budgetary terms and in command 2138 02:10:52.000 --> 02:10:56.039 terms to accomplish you know, the mission in general terms, 2139 02:10:56.680 --> 02:10:59.399 and UH and and and and then you know it's 2140 02:10:59.680 --> 02:11:03.479 it's uh. The legislature bows out of the decision making 2141 02:11:03.600 --> 02:11:08.680 process in large in in large part you know there 2142 02:11:09.000 --> 02:11:13.840 in in in a formal capacity, you know, until uh 2143 02:11:14.840 --> 02:11:19.359 and until until something happens or a series of occurrences 2144 02:11:20.159 --> 02:11:23.520 ensue that, you know, brings it back within their direct purview, 2145 02:11:24.039 --> 02:11:26.000 you know, either willing to you know, revolt of the 2146 02:11:26.399 --> 02:11:30.039 the body politics at war, or you know, some kind 2147 02:11:30.079 --> 02:11:32.840 of perceived malfeasance on on the on on the part 2148 02:11:32.840 --> 02:11:34.880 of the executive in terms of the conduct of the war. 2149 02:11:35.000 --> 02:11:37.600 But we're not here to have a discussion on abstract 2150 02:11:37.600 --> 02:11:40.159 constitutional theory, you know, or on you know, war power 2151 02:11:40.319 --> 02:11:43.880 and and when, what it what and what its significance 2152 02:11:44.000 --> 02:11:46.119 is in the in the post number era. I just 2153 02:11:46.199 --> 02:11:49.239 wanted to make the point that the Westphalian practice of 2154 02:11:49.399 --> 02:11:53.680 literally declaring war as a change of status and relations 2155 02:11:54.039 --> 02:11:59.079 between equals like that, that's totally obsolete. And it doesn't 2156 02:11:59.119 --> 02:12:00.960 matter if we think that good or bad. That's the 2157 02:12:01.039 --> 02:12:03.800 way it is. So the golf of talk and resolution 2158 02:12:03.960 --> 02:12:06.960 doesn't stand out as this uniquely you know, kind of 2159 02:12:07.439 --> 02:12:15.560 corrupt uh way of uh of a rather morally uh 2160 02:12:16.399 --> 02:12:21.000 you know, uh compromise executive Verkira Warman date. I'm not 2161 02:12:21.039 --> 02:12:23.159 gonna sit here and say Josson was was had any 2162 02:12:23.239 --> 02:12:28.399 redeeming characteristics. But even like like if Kennedy had been 2163 02:12:28.640 --> 02:12:33.399 in the White House, he would have pursued he would 2164 02:12:33.439 --> 02:12:36.279 he would have proceeded in much the same way as 2165 02:12:36.319 --> 02:12:40.520 would Nixon, Okay, as would you know, Reagan had he 2166 02:12:41.520 --> 02:12:44.199 been I mean, this is something important to keep in mind, 2167 02:12:44.239 --> 02:12:47.399 but I won't believe that point anymore. But what the 2168 02:12:47.520 --> 02:12:52.399 resolution represented was that, and I'm gonna, I'm go, I'm 2169 02:12:52.399 --> 02:12:54.520 gonna jump backwards a little bit, doesn't. We proceed to 2170 02:12:54.600 --> 02:12:56.960 talk about Colonel John Paul Van who I think is 2171 02:12:57.079 --> 02:13:02.800 very important. He was his analysis of the Vietnam War 2172 02:13:03.039 --> 02:13:05.479 like as it was underway, I think is essential to 2173 02:13:05.600 --> 02:13:09.039 understanding the battlefield situation and you know, kind of the 2174 02:13:09.119 --> 02:13:13.680 tactical shortcomings of a particularly of McVie. But I don't 2175 02:13:13.720 --> 02:13:19.600 want to get into that yet. But what's important to 2176 02:13:19.720 --> 02:13:24.600 keep in mind in discussing the escalation that was facilitated 2177 02:13:24.600 --> 02:13:29.479 by the Tonkin Resolution is that Military Assistants Command Vietnam. 2178 02:13:29.960 --> 02:13:34.560 It arrived in country in nineteen sixty two, and from 2179 02:13:34.640 --> 02:13:38.520 sixty two to sixty five there was a proper counterinsurgency 2180 02:13:38.640 --> 02:13:43.640 campaign underway against the viet Cong. And this really you know, 2181 02:13:44.119 --> 02:13:47.439 Army Special Forces was very much purpose for that, you know, 2182 02:13:48.800 --> 02:13:55.720 and that we talked earlier about, you know, Kennedy's you know, 2183 02:13:56.720 --> 02:14:01.399 Kennedy's a strategic orientation towards sec NERD theaters, you know, 2184 02:14:01.479 --> 02:14:06.560 and the need to you know, not surrender these contested 2185 02:14:07.039 --> 02:14:11.000 territories to the communists, you know, for not not just 2186 02:14:11.560 --> 02:14:15.079 for you know, on grounds of military necessity, but you know, 2187 02:14:15.199 --> 02:14:19.880 owing owing the profound political implications of communist victory, you know, 2188 02:14:20.000 --> 02:14:23.119 in these uh in these developing countries. You know, the 2189 02:14:24.520 --> 02:14:26.760 and the fact that he is the Kennedy was such 2190 02:14:26.800 --> 02:14:30.279 a champion of special operations forces is inextrictly bound up 2191 02:14:30.319 --> 02:14:35.359 with that policy vision. But Vietnam pre Tonkin Gulf. 2192 02:14:36.439 --> 02:14:40.479 So Kennedy in sixty two and sixty three was commander 2193 02:14:40.520 --> 02:14:42.239 in chief guiding these missions. 2194 02:14:43.479 --> 02:14:45.479 Yeah, essentially, Yeah, I mean he had it was it 2195 02:14:45.520 --> 02:14:49.399 was mac Namara and it was you know, he Kennedy 2196 02:14:49.439 --> 02:14:51.560 had a lot of talent around him, you know, who 2197 02:14:51.640 --> 02:14:55.520 are who are helping him identify kind of the concrete variables. 2198 02:14:55.560 --> 02:14:59.880 Now this translated actual war fighting. But so, I mean, 2199 02:14:59.880 --> 02:15:02.920 I wasn't just emergent from the mind of Kennedy. But 2200 02:15:03.079 --> 02:15:06.640 Kennedy did understand military matters reasonably well, you know, I 2201 02:15:06.720 --> 02:15:09.399 mean he had been in pretty heavy action in the Navy. 2202 02:15:10.960 --> 02:15:13.439 You know, he wasn't he he wasn't just some like 2203 02:15:13.520 --> 02:15:16.079 civilian neo fight who had no idea of you know 2204 02:15:16.760 --> 02:15:21.439 what what of what this constitute and what the difference 2205 02:15:21.560 --> 02:15:26.159 was between the heavy army you know, organized around uh, 2206 02:15:27.319 --> 02:15:31.399 organized around armor, you know, and that that uh that 2207 02:15:31.520 --> 02:15:33.520 had a very very clouset wood see in view of 2208 02:15:33.600 --> 02:15:36.279 war fighting. It was the advance of fire. I mean, 2209 02:15:36.319 --> 02:15:38.119 this really did like rule the day, you know, and 2210 02:15:38.199 --> 02:15:42.600 and I mean for good reason, frankly, because the the 2211 02:15:42.720 --> 02:15:47.479 the army's uh most probable military mission was to fight 2212 02:15:47.600 --> 02:15:52.079 the Red Army. I mean, but the uh, the kind 2213 02:15:52.119 --> 02:15:57.199 of tactical flexibility that early special operations forces represented, this 2214 02:15:57.319 --> 02:16:00.279 really was like a revolutionary idea. You know, like people 2215 02:16:00.399 --> 02:16:03.840 under like forty five or so, when they think of 2216 02:16:03.840 --> 02:16:05.319 the army, they or they when they think of the 2217 02:16:05.359 --> 02:16:11.319 military establishment, they think of special operations forces. That's completely 2218 02:16:11.399 --> 02:16:14.560 the opposite of the way things were during the Cold War, Okay, 2219 02:16:15.880 --> 02:16:17.720 and it uh and there there's a lot of there's 2220 02:16:17.720 --> 02:16:20.479 a lot of institutional resentment of the army towards special 2221 02:16:20.560 --> 02:16:24.319 operations and I mean that's a whole other issue that's fascinating. 2222 02:16:24.399 --> 02:16:28.319 But point being, there's kind of this mischaracterization I'm on 2223 02:16:28.399 --> 02:16:32.479 court historians that Okay, in Vietnam, there's this guerrilla war underway, 2224 02:16:33.120 --> 02:16:36.559 and you know Johnson, you know, being the you know, 2225 02:16:36.680 --> 02:16:38.760 being the kind of fool that he was, and you 2226 02:16:38.799 --> 02:16:41.040 know the Army being you know, trigger happy as they are, 2227 02:16:41.479 --> 02:16:43.600 they just like looked over the situation and said, you 2228 02:16:43.639 --> 02:16:46.559 know what, We're gonna deploy in massive, in massive depth, 2229 02:16:47.000 --> 02:16:49.079 and we're gonna throw like as much firepower as we 2230 02:16:49.159 --> 02:16:51.719 can at the viet Cong. Like that's not what happened. 2231 02:16:52.000 --> 02:16:57.479 You know. There's a years long counterinsurgency, low intensity war 2232 02:16:57.680 --> 02:17:00.840 against the National Liberation Front by the Army of the 2233 02:17:00.879 --> 02:17:04.639 Republic of Vietnam, you know, by uh by the Arvin 2234 02:17:04.920 --> 02:17:07.959 Ranger element, which was kind of their quasi special forces elements, 2235 02:17:07.959 --> 02:17:10.399 and like we talked about, the South of Enemy's Army 2236 02:17:10.440 --> 02:17:12.799 does get a bad rap because there were elements among 2237 02:17:12.879 --> 02:17:18.479 them that fought hard and we're and we're very game fighters. 2238 02:17:20.120 --> 02:17:22.719 But yeah, there's actually a fastening old movie called Go 2239 02:17:22.840 --> 02:17:25.920 Tell the Spartans, which is about exactly this topic. It's 2240 02:17:25.959 --> 02:17:29.840 about you know, the like the Kennedy era of Vietnam 2241 02:17:29.920 --> 02:17:33.319 War and these green berets of this kind of forlorn outpost, 2242 02:17:35.120 --> 02:17:38.520 you know, uh as they realized the kind of tactical 2243 02:17:38.600 --> 02:17:41.159 situations changing, and obviously in the back of their mind 2244 02:17:41.200 --> 02:17:43.760 they're terrified. Although they'd never like let on this is 2245 02:17:43.799 --> 02:17:47.520 the case that of of of like the North Veennamese 2246 02:17:47.639 --> 02:17:49.680 Army one day showing up and just like sweeping through, 2247 02:17:50.479 --> 02:17:52.840 you know, out of nowhere. I mean, things like that 2248 02:17:52.959 --> 02:17:56.639 did happen, you know, later on like against the against 2249 02:17:56.719 --> 02:18:01.920 the purported you know, in address to what Army intelligence 2250 02:18:02.000 --> 02:18:05.360 was claiming with the capabilities extent of you know, Hannoid 2251 02:18:05.399 --> 02:18:09.440 to deploy in the south. But uh he as it 2252 02:18:09.559 --> 02:18:15.600 may as uh as the as as things that are 2253 02:18:15.680 --> 02:18:17.959 going bad in the south, and as as d M 2254 02:18:20.239 --> 02:18:23.040 made it clear that he was willing to negotiate. You know, 2255 02:18:23.120 --> 02:18:27.159 we talked about the kind of murky political status of Vietnam, 2256 02:18:27.520 --> 02:18:31.200 you know, and it there was there was a lot 2257 02:18:31.239 --> 02:18:33.600 of there's there's great concern that d M was just 2258 02:18:33.719 --> 02:18:36.719 gonna sit you know, quote unlet sell out the West 2259 02:18:37.280 --> 02:18:39.639 and kind of you know, kind of terms with with 2260 02:18:39.760 --> 02:18:42.639 Ho Chi Minh and with Hanoid, you know, to incorporate 2261 02:18:42.799 --> 02:18:45.239 you know, not just the NLF, but you know, the 2262 02:18:45.280 --> 02:18:49.520 Communist Party of Vietnam UH into you know, into UH 2263 02:18:50.479 --> 02:18:52.639 into the ruling apparatus, and I mean obviously that was 2264 02:18:52.680 --> 02:18:59.120 unacceptable because that you know that that the precedent that 2265 02:18:59.200 --> 02:19:02.799 that would set would be completely would be completely at 2266 02:19:02.799 --> 02:19:06.040 odds with what you know, America is trying to accomplish 2267 02:19:06.639 --> 02:19:08.680 in the developing world. And you know, we talked about 2268 02:19:08.719 --> 02:19:12.760 how again like you know, the UH the it was 2269 02:19:12.879 --> 02:19:15.879 it was at base. We're talking about a political conflict. 2270 02:19:16.319 --> 02:19:21.000 It doesn't matter that you know they're they're there, that 2271 02:19:21.200 --> 02:19:24.200 that's into China's not you know, a bounty of natural resources. 2272 02:19:24.239 --> 02:19:26.680 It doesn't matter that you know, there's not there's not 2273 02:19:26.719 --> 02:19:30.319 some absolutely essential you know, maritime portocoll that you know 2274 02:19:30.479 --> 02:19:34.920 has UH has profound military significance there. You know, the 2275 02:19:35.040 --> 02:19:40.000 line in the sand was UH was Vietnam, and that's 2276 02:19:40.399 --> 02:19:43.079 that's where the Communists challenged and that's you know, the 2277 02:19:43.239 --> 02:19:45.360 challenge of everyone. That challenge was going to be met 2278 02:19:45.479 --> 02:19:49.920 or it was not. And the Communists had great momentum 2279 02:19:50.239 --> 02:19:54.200 in the Third World even really up until up until 2280 02:19:54.200 --> 02:19:57.200 the late nineteen eighties, you know, like long after, you know, 2281 02:19:57.280 --> 02:20:00.920 long after like Stalinists type rule, you know, Marxist Leninist 2282 02:20:01.479 --> 02:20:05.040 revolutionary ambition and and the kind of the kind of 2283 02:20:05.079 --> 02:20:08.399 the armed UH insurgency culture or political culture around it. 2284 02:20:08.840 --> 02:20:11.879 Long after that like lost its luster, you know for anybody, 2285 02:20:12.000 --> 02:20:14.360 but you know, total diehards, you know, like the kind 2286 02:20:14.360 --> 02:20:17.120 of people who joined like the Bottom Minehoff gang, you know, 2287 02:20:17.200 --> 02:20:19.559 in in the Western world. This kind of thing had 2288 02:20:19.719 --> 02:20:22.399 an incredible power to animate people in the Third world, 2289 02:20:22.959 --> 02:20:26.639 you know, and Hochi Minh was himself as a testament 2290 02:20:26.680 --> 02:20:29.360 to that. You know, like we talked about, Hoe was 2291 02:20:29.440 --> 02:20:31.760 not some It wasn't some bumpkin or some or some 2292 02:20:31.920 --> 02:20:35.040 ignorant you know, farmer or something. He you know, he 2293 02:20:35.159 --> 02:20:38.680 was uh, he was. He was highly educated. You know, 2294 02:20:38.760 --> 02:20:41.479 his family was uh was was was wealthy and well 2295 02:20:41.559 --> 02:20:47.079 situated and very insinuated into the uh indigenous political structure, 2296 02:20:47.760 --> 02:20:51.959 you know, and uh in Vietnam, so you know, and 2297 02:20:52.000 --> 02:20:54.239 he was not He was not an outlier, nor was 2298 02:20:54.280 --> 02:21:00.440 he an achronism. But because it may it uh, the 2299 02:21:00.959 --> 02:21:04.000 the mass escalation, I mean yeah, part of that was 2300 02:21:04.239 --> 02:21:08.520 owing to the fact that the post the new look army, 2301 02:21:10.440 --> 02:21:13.879 you know, once what once conventional forces, you know, kind 2302 02:21:13.879 --> 02:21:17.440 of became uh what once again in vogue for lack 2303 02:21:17.440 --> 02:21:20.959 of a better way to describe it, the army, uh, 2304 02:21:21.719 --> 02:21:25.040 the army remained obsessed with with firepower, you know, and 2305 02:21:25.079 --> 02:21:27.319 the idea that you know, combined arms and a lot 2306 02:21:27.319 --> 02:21:30.959 of these nascent technologies you know, and and the precursor 2307 02:21:31.079 --> 02:21:34.000 the smart weapons you know, and uh as well as 2308 02:21:34.040 --> 02:21:37.079 like the technologies immediately preceding the revolution and military affairs 2309 02:21:37.120 --> 02:21:41.799 that allowed command and control, the truly direct fire they like, 2310 02:21:41.879 --> 02:21:45.760 the the destructive capabilities of these things was just awesome. 2311 02:21:46.360 --> 02:21:48.440 So there was, in fact the sense and the Pentagon 2312 02:21:48.559 --> 02:21:52.319 that like, look, you know, asymmetric warfare. Yeah, there's you know, 2313 02:21:52.559 --> 02:21:59.000 there's considerations emergent you know, within that paradigm, and that's 2314 02:21:59.000 --> 02:22:01.639 got to be accounted for within the battle space itself 2315 02:22:02.399 --> 02:22:05.319 and within you know, uh and and and and and 2316 02:22:05.399 --> 02:22:09.959 it's got to inform decision making of how forces are 2317 02:22:09.959 --> 02:22:12.920 structured and deployed in country. But at the same time, 2318 02:22:13.479 --> 02:22:15.799 you know, if you can blast the hell out of everything, 2319 02:22:15.920 --> 02:22:17.799 you're gonna get a lot done, you know. And and 2320 02:22:18.239 --> 02:22:20.760 how can you know, how can the National Liberation Front, 2321 02:22:21.239 --> 02:22:23.159 you know, no matter it doesn't matter how hard they are, 2322 02:22:23.200 --> 02:22:25.920 It doesn't matter you know what kind of uh what 2323 02:22:26.079 --> 02:22:28.479 what kind of civilian support they have? You know, it 2324 02:22:28.520 --> 02:22:31.879 doesn't matter, you know, kind of how uh, it doesn't 2325 02:22:31.959 --> 02:22:35.040 matter that they've got this kind of mass, youthful male 2326 02:22:35.120 --> 02:22:37.639 population to draw upon. You know, if you if, if you, 2327 02:22:37.680 --> 02:22:39.760 if you apply this kind of pressure in the form 2328 02:22:39.840 --> 02:22:46.200 of you know, just relentless and massive firepower against the adversary, 2329 02:22:46.360 --> 02:22:49.600 he's gonna just crumble. I mean, there was there was 2330 02:22:50.200 --> 02:22:53.079 more than you know, like a modicum of of that 2331 02:22:53.799 --> 02:22:58.159 sort of thinking. I mean, obviously, however, it was clear, 2332 02:23:00.399 --> 02:23:02.559 you know, in nineteen fifty nine, and I mean sixty 2333 02:23:02.680 --> 02:23:06.000 nine all the way to you know, nineteen seventy four, 2334 02:23:06.159 --> 02:23:10.079 seventy five, when the People's Army Vietnam launched its final offensive, 2335 02:23:10.520 --> 02:23:14.360 it was clear that Hanoi was not going to prevail 2336 02:23:14.680 --> 02:23:18.840 without a massive conventional assault on the South Vietnam. It's 2337 02:23:18.840 --> 02:23:24.879 a comparatively huge country. The National Liberation Front had the 2338 02:23:24.959 --> 02:23:31.399 capability to dominate the countryside very effectively. Thus, this is 2339 02:23:31.440 --> 02:23:33.559 what was responsible for the kind of you know, hearts 2340 02:23:33.600 --> 02:23:38.680 and minds campaign, all of that, and and the idea 2341 02:23:38.719 --> 02:23:41.120 of free fire zones and strategic hamlets, and we'll get 2342 02:23:41.120 --> 02:23:46.159 into some of that later. But the uh, but but 2343 02:23:46.319 --> 02:23:48.799 the but key urban centers the viet Cong could not, 2344 02:23:49.639 --> 02:23:52.559 not only could not capture, but they couldn't, you know, 2345 02:23:52.600 --> 02:23:56.920 and there there was a dearth of of necessary civilian support, 2346 02:23:57.520 --> 02:23:59.479 you know, which was the true kind of like infrastructure 2347 02:23:59.479 --> 02:24:01.799 of the Vietcong, you know, like any gorilla movement, that's 2348 02:24:01.799 --> 02:24:04.360 what they have to draw up on. But even like 2349 02:24:04.440 --> 02:24:07.440 their big coup was when they their big battlefield coup 2350 02:24:08.079 --> 02:24:10.719 was when the NLF captured Howayi City, you know, and 2351 02:24:10.840 --> 02:24:14.239 that's you know, and and uh, there's just there's those 2352 02:24:14.319 --> 02:24:16.879 dramatic shots of the US Marines, you know, like raising 2353 02:24:16.920 --> 02:24:19.399 the American flag like over the citadel and in uh 2354 02:24:19.520 --> 02:24:22.159 in Hway, you know, because it was it was this 2355 02:24:22.280 --> 02:24:25.520 horrible like pitched battle. But I mean just really really raw. 2356 02:24:25.600 --> 02:24:28.079 That's why I think it's cool that full Metal Jacket 2357 02:24:28.200 --> 02:24:32.959 like focuses on Howay you know. And and uh, Gustav 2358 02:24:33.040 --> 02:24:38.879 Hasford made Wway the focus of uh the battlefield segment 2359 02:24:39.000 --> 02:24:42.000 of his novel for for a reason. But the point is, like, 2360 02:24:42.079 --> 02:24:44.040 you know, they couldn't hold it. You know, it's not 2361 02:24:44.239 --> 02:24:47.639 like it's not like it's not like the NLF took 2362 02:24:47.680 --> 02:24:51.799 away and said into this massive push on TET sixty eight, 2363 02:24:52.280 --> 02:24:54.959 you know, and then uh, and and then the civilian 2364 02:24:55.040 --> 02:24:57.920 population he came out and drove, you know, allow them 2365 02:24:57.959 --> 02:25:02.399 to consolidate that that their presence there, you know, quite 2366 02:25:02.440 --> 02:25:09.040 the contrary. So it was clear that South Vietnam either 2367 02:25:09.120 --> 02:25:12.479 was going to have to develop a competent conventional capability 2368 02:25:13.360 --> 02:25:18.520 buttressed by or facilitated by rather you know, modern combined 2369 02:25:18.639 --> 02:25:21.799 arms and hardware, as well as the training of their people, 2370 02:25:22.040 --> 02:25:26.840 you know, to operate these these weapons systems and weapons platforms, 2371 02:25:27.520 --> 02:25:30.520 or there was gonna have to be direct intervention you know, 2372 02:25:30.680 --> 02:25:33.239 by Sito ideally, and we got into STO the other 2373 02:25:33.360 --> 02:25:40.000 day or some constellation of you know, American allies in 2374 02:25:40.159 --> 02:25:44.440 order to in order to stave off uh this uh 2375 02:25:45.760 --> 02:25:49.879 this uh this imminent assault until until the South could 2376 02:25:49.920 --> 02:25:52.799 stand on its own. And that's what I just said. 2377 02:25:52.879 --> 02:25:58.479 That's what became Grand strategy in Vietnam. You know. And 2378 02:26:00.040 --> 02:26:02.600 as any military man will tell you, you know, you 2379 02:26:02.639 --> 02:26:05.159 don't you don't you don't you don't wait until, uh, 2380 02:26:05.879 --> 02:26:09.120 the exigency is afoot and then respond to it, you know, 2381 02:26:09.280 --> 02:26:14.000 just like just as you anticipate capabilities, you know, not 2382 02:26:14.879 --> 02:26:16.959 you know, you don't just consider you know, probable action 2383 02:26:17.760 --> 02:26:21.159 in terms of uh, in terms of judging and you know, 2384 02:26:21.360 --> 02:26:27.479 a potential opposing UH force. You were you pre empt 2385 02:26:27.760 --> 02:26:31.600 UH the ambitions of that opposing force, you know, you 2386 02:26:31.639 --> 02:26:33.639 don't you don't you don't wait until the People's Army 2387 02:26:33.639 --> 02:26:37.639 of Vietnam is assaulting across the seventeenth parallel, you know, 2388 02:26:38.319 --> 02:26:41.120 in in in in in depth, you know, with with 2389 02:26:41.280 --> 02:26:43.600 combined arms, you know, to decide, like how are you 2390 02:26:43.639 --> 02:26:46.600 going to react to that? Okay? So this was the 2391 02:26:46.840 --> 02:26:51.120 this was this was the logic behind the massive escalation 2392 02:26:52.040 --> 02:26:58.200 and UH there had been at its peak pre talking golf, 2393 02:26:58.399 --> 02:27:01.719 I think it was between seventeen thousand and eighteen thousand, 2394 02:27:01.799 --> 02:27:06.920 five hundred approximddally UH American forces on the ground in Vietnam. 2395 02:27:07.639 --> 02:27:13.200 This is by the end of nineteen sixty seven, this 2396 02:27:13.319 --> 02:27:16.399 had swelled the four hundred and eighty five thousand UH 2397 02:27:16.959 --> 02:27:21.879 troops and UH by the peak, which was the summer 2398 02:27:21.879 --> 02:27:24.840 in nineteen sixty eight, it was it was over half 2399 02:27:24.879 --> 02:27:27.799 a million. It was something like five hundred and thirty thousand. Okay, 2400 02:27:29.600 --> 02:27:32.680 the UH and obviously you know, as as as the 2401 02:27:32.799 --> 02:27:41.559 casualties mounted and as UH and as some the plus 2402 02:27:41.559 --> 02:27:43.840 situation you know kind of like restricted the UH the 2403 02:27:43.920 --> 02:27:46.879 tactical environment and and what was and what was permissible 2404 02:27:47.040 --> 02:27:50.239 according to the rules of engagement. You know, commanders on 2405 02:27:50.319 --> 02:27:54.799 the ground, uh down to the company level, you know, 2406 02:27:54.840 --> 02:27:57.879 their their constant refrain was like, basically, we need more manpower. 2407 02:27:58.360 --> 02:28:00.399 You know, we need we we you know, we need 2408 02:28:00.479 --> 02:28:05.920 to be able to apply more apply more pressure now 2409 02:28:06.040 --> 02:28:08.079 And why why why was it kind of boiled down 2410 02:28:08.120 --> 02:28:11.760 to that metric? Okay, well, you know we talked, uh 2411 02:28:12.719 --> 02:28:14.879 we we talked when we first kind of scratched the 2412 02:28:14.920 --> 02:28:18.319 service of of the atomic age, I mean, like it's 2413 02:28:18.360 --> 02:28:20.719 advent and what the implications were in policy terms as 2414 02:28:20.760 --> 02:28:23.719 well as military ones. And obviously I can speak a 2415 02:28:23.760 --> 02:28:26.440 lot more about the former than the latter, because I 2416 02:28:26.840 --> 02:28:29.680 am not a military man, and I you know, that's 2417 02:28:29.719 --> 02:28:32.399 not really my wheelhouse. But I do know something about 2418 02:28:32.440 --> 02:28:36.479 policy as it interfaces with military decision making and the 2419 02:28:36.559 --> 02:28:39.440 needs of you know, the needs of the military establishment 2420 02:28:39.959 --> 02:28:44.559 to accomplish stated policy goals as directed by the civilian executive. 2421 02:28:46.719 --> 02:28:53.440 There came the ability to the the ability to corral 2422 02:28:53.559 --> 02:28:56.479 data and the ability to interpret data, the ability to 2423 02:28:56.559 --> 02:29:01.680 apply data to all kinds of problems at scale. You know, 2424 02:29:02.000 --> 02:29:06.040 whether you're talking about you know, whether you're talking about 2425 02:29:06.079 --> 02:29:08.879 the best of offset liability if you're you know, if 2426 02:29:08.920 --> 02:29:12.680 if you're manufacturing automobiles, you know, and thus that that 2427 02:29:12.879 --> 02:29:15.079 was the you know, unsafe at any speed. That was 2428 02:29:15.120 --> 02:29:17.280 like the Ralph Nader book about uh, you know, the 2429 02:29:17.360 --> 02:29:20.440 auto industry and it's it's macat calculus of you know, 2430 02:29:21.319 --> 02:29:25.799 how many how many deaths owing to the products liability 2431 02:29:25.840 --> 02:29:29.879 issues were acceptable? You know, vis a vis what would 2432 02:29:30.280 --> 02:29:32.959 be the cost of remedying these design defects. I mean, 2433 02:29:33.000 --> 02:29:37.239 everybody's familiar with that, Okay, that this this was something 2434 02:29:37.280 --> 02:29:40.440 that was emergent, just like across the board, you know, 2435 02:29:41.360 --> 02:29:44.440 in uh in the private sector and government, you know, 2436 02:29:44.600 --> 02:29:52.120 in in in social planning, the military, uh, in the 2437 02:29:52.239 --> 02:29:58.479 Cold War, it what you know, what the what the 2438 02:29:58.600 --> 02:30:02.520 victory metric was in these secondary theaters, you know, where 2439 02:30:03.319 --> 02:30:06.959 the primary challenge was a political one, you know, not 2440 02:30:07.159 --> 02:30:11.799 a military one. You know, a comparable situation would be 2441 02:30:11.840 --> 02:30:16.840 with the British we're facing in Northern Ireland. Okay, I 2442 02:30:16.920 --> 02:30:21.120 mean that that that conflict developed ory differently, but uh, 2443 02:30:22.319 --> 02:30:27.600 identifying you know, not just what uh what the tactical 2444 02:30:27.639 --> 02:30:31.200 orientation should be in order to neutralize the opposing force, 2445 02:30:31.760 --> 02:30:35.440 but what the performance metric is, you know, of those 2446 02:30:35.520 --> 02:30:39.680 forces in theater. Well, what this came boiled down to was, 2447 02:30:40.559 --> 02:30:44.280 you know, the the the ability to manufacture enemy dead. 2448 02:30:44.559 --> 02:30:48.360 Quite literally, the logic of the body count became the 2449 02:30:48.600 --> 02:30:55.280 performance metric. So there'd be demands from a battalion level, 2450 02:30:55.840 --> 02:31:00.079 you know, originating with the originating you know, at M 2451 02:31:01.120 --> 02:31:05.479 at long been uh, you know, and and trickling down 2452 02:31:05.520 --> 02:31:07.840 to company and then platoon level, you know, like you 2453 02:31:08.000 --> 02:31:10.600 need to produce bodies, you need to produce enemy dead. 2454 02:31:11.559 --> 02:31:18.399 And UH, as a standalone metric, that's problematic. I mean, 2455 02:31:18.440 --> 02:31:20.559 aside from the fact that it's macabre and all of that, 2456 02:31:20.760 --> 02:31:23.079 and I realized it's it's kind of a gross thing 2457 02:31:23.120 --> 02:31:26.639 to talk about that makes people uncomfortable. But this is 2458 02:31:26.719 --> 02:31:28.719 very much like I mean, this, this is this, this 2459 02:31:28.879 --> 02:31:32.159 is the stuff of modern warfare. Okay, but it took 2460 02:31:32.280 --> 02:31:36.760 on a significance into itself and Vietnam owing again to 2461 02:31:36.879 --> 02:31:39.639 the kind of to to the kind of the culture 2462 02:31:39.639 --> 02:31:43.920 of strategic planning. But it wasn't just spillover from you know, 2463 02:31:45.280 --> 02:31:52.719 the uh, the kind of a the data revolution spearheaded 2464 02:31:52.799 --> 02:31:57.559 by I. D. M. And it's got the proto computers 2465 02:31:58.079 --> 02:32:00.840 you know that were utilized uh in the Second World War, 2466 02:32:00.959 --> 02:32:04.920 and and and and you know thereafter obviously, you know, 2467 02:32:04.959 --> 02:32:08.879 the victory metric of in nuclear war is very much 2468 02:32:08.920 --> 02:32:13.360 distilled down to you know, the ability to the like 2469 02:32:13.440 --> 02:32:17.840 the ability to yield you know, enemy dead at the 2470 02:32:18.760 --> 02:32:21.600 beyond like a certain tipping point. You know, that's that's 2471 02:32:21.639 --> 02:32:24.239 literally what the term you know, like mega death indicates 2472 02:32:24.360 --> 02:32:27.399 and assured destruction. Mega death was not just you know, 2473 02:32:27.440 --> 02:32:31.280 the name of like kind of a got you know, 2474 02:32:31.360 --> 02:32:33.559 a like a like a fucking heavy metal man, you know, 2475 02:32:33.639 --> 02:32:37.120 like it Actually it actually was a term of art, 2476 02:32:38.319 --> 02:32:43.360 if not the nuclear war studies and game theory, but 2477 02:32:43.799 --> 02:32:48.000 because it may there is something too, uh there, there 2478 02:32:48.079 --> 02:32:51.239 is something to this logic on the body count. I mean, 2479 02:32:51.280 --> 02:32:56.920 if you're if the burn rate that uh that you're 2480 02:32:59.040 --> 02:33:02.360 that you're imposing a upon the opposing force you know, 2481 02:33:02.479 --> 02:33:08.920 far exceeds the population and military age males you know, 2482 02:33:09.239 --> 02:33:12.959 who can be trained, equipped and fielded, you know, to 2483 02:33:13.040 --> 02:33:17.799 replace those losses. At some point, you know, the insurgency 2484 02:33:17.879 --> 02:33:20.360 is gonna fall apart where it's at least not gonna 2485 02:33:20.360 --> 02:33:24.520 be able to mount operations you know beyond you know, 2486 02:33:24.879 --> 02:33:32.239 like platoon level or something. And uh, this did work 2487 02:33:32.680 --> 02:33:37.319 in a sense I'm one of the few defenders you'll 2488 02:33:37.360 --> 02:33:41.200 find the Phoenix program. We'll get into that at another date. 2489 02:33:42.120 --> 02:33:44.680 And people who don't really understand it, like even people 2490 02:33:44.719 --> 02:33:48.760 are otherwise sensible, Like it's become this kind of it's 2491 02:33:48.799 --> 02:33:51.520 become this kind of horror story that they like to 2492 02:33:51.639 --> 02:33:54.879 bandy about. You know that, you know, it's kind of 2493 02:33:55.200 --> 02:33:58.120 synonymous in their mind, or you know, it's taken on 2494 02:33:58.319 --> 02:34:02.319 kind of the characteristic of a it's become kind of 2495 02:34:02.360 --> 02:34:06.479 like the exemplar of of a of executive overreach and 2496 02:34:06.760 --> 02:34:09.399 and and and violence they're in you know, but it 2497 02:34:14.360 --> 02:34:17.840 something like that identifying enemy cadres, I mean, if you 2498 02:34:17.920 --> 02:34:21.959 have a reliable system of of of identifying these people 2499 02:34:22.600 --> 02:34:29.200 and targeting them for annihilation with a minimum of collateral 2500 02:34:29.319 --> 02:34:37.200 damage where possible. That's basically how you fight uh counterinsurgency 2501 02:34:37.280 --> 02:34:40.959 warfare or how you wage counter in curtaincy warfare. And uh, 2502 02:34:41.319 --> 02:34:44.120 that's what the British Army started doing by the late 2503 02:34:44.520 --> 02:34:48.000 nineties in Northern Ireland. Uh. The way they did it 2504 02:34:48.479 --> 02:34:51.600 obviously was or by by the late eighties, I mean sorry, 2505 02:34:51.680 --> 02:34:57.120 by not the late nineties, but the this uh that 2506 02:34:57.280 --> 02:35:03.079 this this this was underway in Vietnam. At the same 2507 02:35:03.200 --> 02:35:05.719 time that, you know, there was this kind of uh 2508 02:35:06.120 --> 02:35:09.239 there's this kind of like body count driven effort in 2509 02:35:09.440 --> 02:35:13.319 uh and you know, being waged by you know, conventional forces, 2510 02:35:14.000 --> 02:35:17.000 you know, just to rack up the body count. And 2511 02:35:17.000 --> 02:35:19.120 I mean obviously this led to all kinds of problems. 2512 02:35:19.639 --> 02:35:23.239 You know, wherein these these numbers were confabulated. You know, 2513 02:35:23.920 --> 02:35:28.440 civilians were counted as a as a as enemy combatants. 2514 02:35:28.920 --> 02:35:32.719 You know, like really very very corrupt things happened, you know, 2515 02:35:33.239 --> 02:35:37.719 of a moral and material nature. But that happens in 2516 02:35:37.799 --> 02:35:40.639 every war, right, yeah, exactly. And it's also this didn't 2517 02:35:40.639 --> 02:35:43.159 like somehow emerge in the Macnamara Magris and this gooulish 2518 02:35:43.239 --> 02:35:46.159 guy who was like, oh, well, I have an idea. 2519 02:35:46.319 --> 02:35:50.000 You know, let's let's transform let's transform the military apparatus 2520 02:35:50.040 --> 02:35:54.000 into this kind of corpse manufacturing uh enterprise, you know, 2521 02:35:54.159 --> 02:35:56.920 because that's just a great thing to do. I mean, 2522 02:35:57.000 --> 02:36:01.239 this was this was the thinking at the time. And 2523 02:36:01.399 --> 02:36:06.639 frankly too, I mean it there's a again, the Cold 2524 02:36:06.680 --> 02:36:10.399 War was strange. I mean, in some ways there's commonality 2525 02:36:10.559 --> 02:36:14.680 to all uh, you know, to to to all conflicts 2526 02:36:15.000 --> 02:36:19.040 where there's uh uh at you know, where where there's 2527 02:36:19.280 --> 02:36:22.559 where there's certain variables present. You know that that uh 2528 02:36:24.799 --> 02:36:28.079 that caused you know, combat to resolve in similar ways, 2529 02:36:28.159 --> 02:36:30.840 you know, adjusting for technology and things, you know, like 2530 02:36:30.959 --> 02:36:35.000 with it within disparate theaters and across you know, across 2531 02:36:35.280 --> 02:36:38.840 you know, the temporal divide and stuff. But uh, there 2532 02:36:38.959 --> 02:36:42.399 were strange things about the Cold War that limited what 2533 02:36:42.600 --> 02:36:45.520 was possible, not just because the threat of escalation, you know, 2534 02:36:45.719 --> 02:36:48.680 even in even in a very secondary theater, excuse me, 2535 02:36:48.719 --> 02:36:51.719 it was always present, but also again if you're fighting 2536 02:36:51.879 --> 02:36:56.600 a primarily political war. You know, we're not just talking 2537 02:36:56.600 --> 02:37:00.280 about we're not talking about the enemy's ability to field 2538 02:37:00.360 --> 02:37:04.239 military age males, you know, who are gonna be trained 2539 02:37:04.239 --> 02:37:09.319 as infantry or sapers or whatever. Not every man is 2540 02:37:09.440 --> 02:37:12.360 gonna make it as a Viet Cong. That requires a 2541 02:37:12.399 --> 02:37:18.959 certain radicalism, uh within uh you know, like with with 2542 02:37:19.120 --> 02:37:21.120 with with within you know the quote heart and mind 2543 02:37:21.159 --> 02:37:24.120 of that individual, you know, I mean it's not if 2544 02:37:24.120 --> 02:37:27.799 you're if you're looking to build an insurgent army, particularly 2545 02:37:27.799 --> 02:37:30.559 in a situation like when the vietnames called the American War, 2546 02:37:30.840 --> 02:37:32.680 where you know, basically there's like an eighty percent chance 2547 02:37:32.719 --> 02:37:35.399 you're gonna die, like you're not. It's not like being 2548 02:37:35.520 --> 02:37:37.680 drafted into the US Army and you know, to go 2549 02:37:37.799 --> 02:37:41.920 fight the Korean War. It's like a very different thing, 2550 02:37:42.319 --> 02:37:44.520 you know, like you you every man pretty much needs 2551 02:37:44.559 --> 02:37:46.639 to be a partisan. And yeah, you know, there were 2552 02:37:46.760 --> 02:37:49.920 there there were a there were NLF fighters you know, 2553 02:37:49.959 --> 02:37:52.559 who are basically like press ganged and you know, like 2554 02:37:52.680 --> 02:37:55.760 joining the viet Cong and stuff. But that that was 2555 02:37:55.840 --> 02:37:57.920 the minority, because you don't get results out of people 2556 02:37:58.040 --> 02:38:02.479 like that, you know. I mean, so it the the 2557 02:38:02.959 --> 02:38:04.920 idea that we've got to kill as many of these 2558 02:38:04.959 --> 02:38:08.719 people as possible, and it targeted capacity, and you know, 2559 02:38:09.399 --> 02:38:13.239 killing them is a is an end in itself because 2560 02:38:13.239 --> 02:38:15.799 that's a victory metric in order to kind of alter 2561 02:38:16.120 --> 02:38:19.280 you know, the political conditions on the ground and how 2562 02:38:19.319 --> 02:38:23.879 these conditions translate to military power, you know, albeit in 2563 02:38:23.920 --> 02:38:26.719 an asymmetrical way like that. That is a real thing. 2564 02:38:27.079 --> 02:38:29.840 And that's that's that's a legit analysis. I'm not saying 2565 02:38:29.959 --> 02:38:32.239 legit and you know, moral terms whatever, I mean, I'm 2566 02:38:32.319 --> 02:38:35.280 not rendering decision on that one or the other. But 2567 02:38:35.479 --> 02:38:38.399 in terms of there there is a tactical logic to that. 2568 02:38:39.120 --> 02:38:41.680 That's not you know, insane or something or totally off 2569 02:38:41.760 --> 02:38:44.959 base or the nor is it the kind of nineteen sixties, 2570 02:38:45.360 --> 02:38:48.959 you know, technocrat version of Chatto generalship. And I think 2571 02:38:49.000 --> 02:38:55.840 that that's important. It's uh. But moving on that, THEMERA 2572 02:38:55.920 --> 02:39:00.799 became very very skeptical of administration policy, not because Johnson, 2573 02:39:00.840 --> 02:39:03.840 as we as we talked about, you know, Johnson viewed 2574 02:39:03.959 --> 02:39:06.040 escalation and the threat of escalation as a kind of 2575 02:39:06.040 --> 02:39:10.799 political bargaining ship, which is not how you wage a war. Okay, 2576 02:39:10.840 --> 02:39:14.000 I mean it's not and I mean you're first of all, 2577 02:39:14.000 --> 02:39:16.239 you're playing with the lives of the men you know 2578 02:39:16.319 --> 02:39:18.959 who uh who are charged with fighting that war. But 2579 02:39:19.079 --> 02:39:22.840 also it just doesn't uh, you know, it doesn't. It 2580 02:39:23.079 --> 02:39:26.040 doesn't work. You know, that's not a thing that yields concessions. 2581 02:39:27.639 --> 02:39:31.200 And you know it doesn't. It doesn't it doesn't instill 2582 02:39:31.479 --> 02:39:35.200 fear in the opposing force. You know, it basically tells 2583 02:39:35.280 --> 02:39:38.280 him that, you know, eventually, you're gonna be willing to compromise, 2584 02:39:39.200 --> 02:39:41.399 because otherwise, at the end of the day, you know, 2585 02:39:41.600 --> 02:39:43.760 if you if that was not the case, you know, 2586 02:39:43.879 --> 02:39:45.680 you'd be fighting this war. There'd be no like no 2587 02:39:45.799 --> 02:39:48.520 restraint on the rules of engagement. Like don't get me wrong, 2588 02:39:49.040 --> 02:39:53.879 you know. Uh the uh despite despite the kind of 2589 02:39:54.760 --> 02:39:57.159 the kind of canaris like, oh, America was like fighting 2590 02:39:57.200 --> 02:39:59.319 the Vietnam War with one hand tied around his balls 2591 02:39:59.440 --> 02:40:02.040 or something. I mean, we killed a huge amount of 2592 02:40:02.040 --> 02:40:04.920 people in Vietnam, Okay, like some real cowboy ship was 2593 02:40:04.959 --> 02:40:07.879 going on. I'm not I'm not trashing the war effort 2594 02:40:10.040 --> 02:40:13.159 at all. Okay, like uh unlike World War Two, I 2595 02:40:13.200 --> 02:40:16.200 think within within the boundary rationality of the Cold War, 2596 02:40:17.000 --> 02:40:20.159 I like I said, Vietnam had to be fought, Okay, 2597 02:40:20.840 --> 02:40:26.319 but there was a lot of uh there there there 2598 02:40:26.399 --> 02:40:30.440 there was there's a lot of wholesale killing of human beings, okay, 2599 02:40:31.159 --> 02:40:38.000 according to pretty loose uh criteria, you know, the tactical restraints. 2600 02:40:39.479 --> 02:40:42.360 There was you know, the the literally the parameters that 2601 02:40:42.479 --> 02:40:46.840 were imposed on the operational environment. Like yeah, that had 2602 02:40:46.879 --> 02:40:53.639 a that that rendered victory problematic. Okay, like no doubt 2603 02:40:53.680 --> 02:40:59.639 about it, but it but the uh but but this, 2604 02:41:00.040 --> 02:41:03.280 but this, but this idea that you know, uh America 2605 02:41:03.479 --> 02:41:05.879 was like hesitating to drop bodies in Vietnam wing to 2606 02:41:05.959 --> 02:41:08.479 crazy r O R O E. Like that's that that's 2607 02:41:08.600 --> 02:41:13.520 that's completely fastile. But the uh but what mcnamer realized 2608 02:41:13.600 --> 02:41:17.319 was that, uh, you know, the dropping more and more, 2609 02:41:17.760 --> 02:41:20.879 deploying more and more men to Vietnam was not going 2610 02:41:20.920 --> 02:41:24.239 to solve the problem, you know, Nor was uh? Nor 2611 02:41:24.440 --> 02:41:26.719 was uh? Nor was the problem that you know, they're 2612 02:41:26.840 --> 02:41:30.159 the bombing campaign wasn't intense enough or something, you know, 2613 02:41:30.319 --> 02:41:32.959 Like he he basically reached the conclusions you know that 2614 02:41:33.200 --> 02:41:35.760 that we're gonna talk about now, and like a lot 2615 02:41:35.840 --> 02:41:38.719 of like like a lot of what I'm drawing upon 2616 02:41:39.280 --> 02:41:41.879 to describe his mindset and describe some of the extant 2617 02:41:41.959 --> 02:41:47.879 challenges of of of the Secretary Defense in his epoch, 2618 02:41:48.040 --> 02:41:51.520 I'm drawing upon his own direct testimony, you know, I mean, 2619 02:41:51.520 --> 02:41:55.040 among other things, obviously, but the Mactimer and in winter 2620 02:41:55.159 --> 02:41:57.200 nineteen sixty seven, MC and everyone as far as to 2621 02:41:57.280 --> 02:42:04.840 suggests freezing troop levels and uh, basically to prepare Magnara 2622 02:42:04.959 --> 02:42:06.760 said like, well, then you know, we we don't we 2623 02:42:06.799 --> 02:42:10.600 don't have infant we don't have any indefinite timetable you know, 2624 02:42:10.760 --> 02:42:13.879 to make South Vietnam like combat ready in terms of 2625 02:42:13.879 --> 02:42:17.239 their force isn't being you know, to stand on their 2626 02:42:17.280 --> 02:42:20.559 own against the North, you know it. Uh, He like 2627 02:42:20.680 --> 02:42:23.600 basically said that the situation is not going to improve 2628 02:42:23.639 --> 02:42:26.040 on the ground. Either either you know, either the ear 2629 02:42:26.120 --> 02:42:29.079 of the Republic of Vietnam can fight now or it's 2630 02:42:30.040 --> 02:42:32.760 or or or or it can't fight. You know, two 2631 02:42:32.840 --> 02:42:36.200 years from now, the situation is not gonna it is 2632 02:42:36.239 --> 02:42:40.440 not going to be radically different. This was rejected outright 2633 02:42:41.319 --> 02:42:44.040 by Johnson. And that's you know, it was November twenty 2634 02:42:44.200 --> 02:42:49.200 ninth of sixty seven that Magnevara announced his Penning resignation. 2635 02:42:49.760 --> 02:42:53.319 He didn't retire until February sixty eight, or resign rather, 2636 02:42:53.840 --> 02:42:55.920 But that, I mean, that was that that thing was 2637 02:42:55.920 --> 02:42:58.319 a story that brought the camel's back. Okay, I think 2638 02:42:58.399 --> 02:43:04.680 Magna gave it his all and Vietnam for years. He 2639 02:43:04.799 --> 02:43:07.760 risked his reputation, he probably risked like a lot of 2640 02:43:07.840 --> 02:43:10.840 his a lot of his moral uh, he probably compromised 2641 02:43:10.840 --> 02:43:12.600 a lot of his a lot of his a lot 2642 02:43:12.639 --> 02:43:15.959 of his moral commitments too. Frankly, I'm not gonna sit 2643 02:43:16.000 --> 02:43:17.399 here and make a martyr out of him. He took 2644 02:43:17.440 --> 02:43:19.760 the job. And I mean, if you're Secretary of Defense, 2645 02:43:19.799 --> 02:43:23.040 I mean you're you're dealing with the deaths of human beings. 2646 02:43:23.120 --> 02:43:27.360 You gotta be okay with it. But the you know, 2647 02:43:27.520 --> 02:43:30.479 he for for for this is what he did for 2648 02:43:31.559 --> 02:43:35.799 for seven years almost and uh when when he when 2649 02:43:35.840 --> 02:43:38.399 he approached his commander in chief and said, like, this 2650 02:43:38.520 --> 02:43:42.879 is a situation as it stands, I mean Johnson Bass 2651 02:43:42.920 --> 02:43:45.280 like waved him off, like dismissed him, you know. I 2652 02:43:45.319 --> 02:43:48.399 mean I and I'm not saying that magnum are quit 2653 02:43:48.479 --> 02:43:52.000 because you know, on ground is like massculine ego or 2654 02:43:52.079 --> 02:43:56.159 something at all. But I can't even imagine being in 2655 02:43:56.239 --> 02:43:59.479 that role particularly and considered like what what was underway 2656 02:43:59.479 --> 02:44:03.920 in the country, you know, and uh and your secretary 2657 02:44:04.000 --> 02:44:07.600 Defense like literally the man who uh you know, who 2658 02:44:07.600 --> 02:44:10.440 you rely upon more than any singular figure, I mean 2659 02:44:10.479 --> 02:44:13.319 in that administration, you know, to give you the straight 2660 02:44:13.440 --> 02:44:18.799 story on the strategic situation, like he tells you exactly 2661 02:44:18.920 --> 02:44:23.239 that you know exactly what what what you know what 2662 02:44:23.479 --> 02:44:26.559 what what the what your options are is as commander 2663 02:44:26.639 --> 02:44:29.319 in chief, you know, and you simply dismiss him because 2664 02:44:29.360 --> 02:44:31.399 like that that that doesn't comport with like your own 2665 02:44:31.440 --> 02:44:36.120 conceptual prejudices. I mean, it's incredible, But LBJ was just 2666 02:44:36.200 --> 02:44:40.200 a terrible person and a terrible chief executive. You know. 2667 02:44:40.319 --> 02:44:43.559 It's but that that doesn't need to be rehashed. But 2668 02:44:45.040 --> 02:44:50.360 who succeeded. Who succeeded McNamara was Clark Clifford very briefly, 2669 02:44:50.760 --> 02:44:56.120 that's not like a yalely like uh you're like old 2670 02:44:56.200 --> 02:44:58.760 uh old America like name, I don't know what is, 2671 02:44:58.920 --> 02:45:03.120 but he you kind of a placeholder. The true succession 2672 02:45:03.159 --> 02:45:06.280 to mc namara was a guy named Melvin Laird. He's 2673 02:45:06.360 --> 02:45:10.040 kind of forgotten the history, but Melvin Laird loomed really 2674 02:45:10.159 --> 02:45:16.360 large over the late Cold War. His deputy, uh what 2675 02:45:16.959 --> 02:45:19.200 what was not worry about Clifford was one of his 2676 02:45:19.440 --> 02:45:22.239 one of like one of his chief uh like assistants 2677 02:45:22.799 --> 02:45:25.479 was Paul Nitza, you know, and Paul Nitza was you know, 2678 02:45:25.520 --> 02:45:28.159 he was the co founder of Team B and uh 2679 02:45:28.440 --> 02:45:30.479 you know until he was like quite elderly like he 2680 02:45:31.440 --> 02:45:34.600 he uh like Nitsa was even like he was he 2681 02:45:34.799 --> 02:45:37.799 was he was drafting, uh he was, he was. He 2682 02:45:37.920 --> 02:45:41.600 was he was drafting policy statements on behalf of the 2683 02:45:41.639 --> 02:45:44.040 project for a New American Century, you know, like as 2684 02:45:44.719 --> 02:45:46.520 late as the early two thousands. You know, like he 2685 02:45:47.479 --> 02:45:50.040 he's he's he's one of these. He's one of these 2686 02:45:50.120 --> 02:45:51.959 kinds of I mean not to sound no dramatic, he's 2687 02:45:51.959 --> 02:45:54.079 one of these Nize was one of these shadowy figures 2688 02:45:55.280 --> 02:45:58.760 of the defense establishment, you know who who really was 2689 02:45:58.920 --> 02:46:01.079 uh you know who really was kind of like a 2690 02:46:01.159 --> 02:46:05.040 hidden eminence. But uh, that's really all that's remarkab about 2691 02:46:05.079 --> 02:46:10.280 Clifford Laird. Uh, Laird was interesting, and there was a 2692 02:46:11.239 --> 02:46:13.200 how long, how how long we've been going here? I 2693 02:46:13.239 --> 02:46:15.760 don't know if I should I don't know if I 2694 02:46:15.760 --> 02:46:19.399 should dive into I don't know I should dive into. Yeah, 2695 02:46:19.440 --> 02:46:21.719 we'll get started on Melvin Laird and and and then 2696 02:46:21.799 --> 02:46:23.879 what begin the Nixon doctor in and then like well 2697 02:46:24.000 --> 02:46:26.479 we'll we'll like deep dive properly into like Nixon's war 2698 02:46:26.680 --> 02:46:30.760 next episode at that school because it requires I'm not 2699 02:46:30.840 --> 02:46:33.479 intentionally dragging this out, but it there's just like a 2700 02:46:33.559 --> 02:46:40.479 lot here. But Melvin Laird, Uh, some people, some of 2701 02:46:40.520 --> 02:46:41.959 you'll talk on him like it was a hands off 2702 02:46:42.040 --> 02:46:45.120 secretary Defense either wanting to you know, Nixon being an 2703 02:46:45.120 --> 02:46:48.600 imperial executive who bullied his cabinet, Like that's that's complete nonsense. 2704 02:46:49.120 --> 02:46:52.600 Other people cast Laired as this guy who uh you know, 2705 02:46:52.959 --> 02:46:54.719 in in and then and delivered. Ever to strike a 2706 02:46:54.799 --> 02:46:59.559 contrast to mc namara, you know, uh was was was 2707 02:46:59.600 --> 02:47:05.760 a verse to you know, setting a policy course in uh, 2708 02:47:06.680 --> 02:47:10.360 like you know, in its own right emergent from the 2709 02:47:10.440 --> 02:47:14.760 Secretary Defensive Office. It's not now those things are correct. 2710 02:47:16.200 --> 02:47:20.959 Laird actually was, uh, it was very much uh engaged 2711 02:47:21.000 --> 02:47:24.319 in the course of policy and uh he very much 2712 02:47:24.399 --> 02:47:29.319 became an enemy of Nixon Kissinger. And this had implications 2713 02:47:29.399 --> 02:47:34.040 for Watergate, which in my opinion, was, you know, just 2714 02:47:34.120 --> 02:47:37.360 the coup against Nixon. By what we do today is 2715 02:47:37.399 --> 02:47:45.559 the deep you know, I uh certainly was government in 2716 02:47:45.600 --> 02:47:46.040 those days. 2717 02:47:46.520 --> 02:47:48.639 You broke up there, you broke up there for a 2718 02:47:48.719 --> 02:47:52.680 second out were you referring to it as you said 2719 02:47:52.760 --> 02:47:57.239 that the people who would have carried out Watergate would 2720 02:47:57.239 --> 02:47:59.680 have been comparable to today what we call the deep state? 2721 02:48:00.760 --> 02:48:04.799 Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. It's just that the it's like 2722 02:48:04.879 --> 02:48:07.559 the like government was different than the Cold War and 2723 02:48:07.680 --> 02:48:10.799 certain key ways. But I mean some like I'm not. 2724 02:48:11.319 --> 02:48:12.760 I mean, yeah, okay, we get. I mean, if you 2725 02:48:12.799 --> 02:48:16.159 want to talk about in linear terms like yeah, I get, 2726 02:48:16.239 --> 02:48:18.760 we can, we can look at it as is kind 2727 02:48:18.799 --> 02:48:24.319 of you know, the phenomena in common. But the but Laird, yeah, uh, 2728 02:48:26.280 --> 02:48:29.799 I think Laird's hostility to Nixon and Kissinger, it took 2729 02:48:29.879 --> 02:48:32.799 on a very personal tenor, which is strange. I mean, 2730 02:48:32.879 --> 02:48:40.280 I think it, uh, But in pure policy terms Lared's vision, 2731 02:48:42.479 --> 02:48:45.120 I think he was wrong, but it's he wasn't totally 2732 02:48:45.159 --> 02:48:49.399 of base. If you if you, if you'd Vietnam as 2733 02:48:49.719 --> 02:48:54.120 essentially weakening the United States, not just some material terms, 2734 02:48:55.079 --> 02:48:59.799 but uh, he said that, you know, essentially, he's like, 2735 02:48:59.840 --> 02:49:02.840 you got a war weary country now, you know then 2736 02:49:03.479 --> 02:49:06.719 like that they're now being nineteen sixty nine. You know, 2737 02:49:06.799 --> 02:49:10.959 he's like a general war broke up, you know, broke 2738 02:49:11.000 --> 02:49:15.760 out with warsaw pack tomorrow you know uh uh, you know, 2739 02:49:15.799 --> 02:49:18.319 with with the country really have the political will, uh, 2740 02:49:18.879 --> 02:49:21.680 you know, to fight worse, to fight the Soviet Union, 2741 02:49:21.719 --> 02:49:24.159 warsaw packed in Central Europe. You know, it sacrificed. It's 2742 02:49:24.159 --> 02:49:26.280 like a million and a half young people, you know, 2743 02:49:26.440 --> 02:49:28.879 on the on on on the heels of what we've 2744 02:49:28.920 --> 02:49:32.959 already endured in Southeast Asia. Secondly, he's like, you know, 2745 02:49:33.719 --> 02:49:38.879 the uh, the the Soviet Union was advantaged, as we 2746 02:49:38.959 --> 02:49:42.280 talked about before, in terms of the fact that you 2747 02:49:42.319 --> 02:49:45.840 know it it basically had pre existing cadres on the 2748 02:49:45.879 --> 02:49:49.920 ground throughout the Third World, owing in a large part 2749 02:49:51.040 --> 02:49:54.360 you know, the kind of the anti colonial movement and 2750 02:49:54.479 --> 02:49:58.440 other things on like a basic hostility you know to 2751 02:49:58.520 --> 02:50:02.000 the West and and and profound turves not just superficial 2752 02:50:02.040 --> 02:50:06.600 ones and uh, but also like a lot of these 2753 02:50:07.360 --> 02:50:09.920 a lot of these movements, like including the National Liberation 2754 02:50:10.040 --> 02:50:13.520 Front itself. You know, they've been engaged, uh in combat 2755 02:50:13.559 --> 02:50:17.719 either against the Axis or you know, against UH or 2756 02:50:17.719 --> 02:50:20.399 against the Portuguese, the French or the English or you know, 2757 02:50:21.200 --> 02:50:25.200 any of these uh, any of these fading you know, 2758 02:50:26.000 --> 02:50:29.680 colonial powers. The Soviet Union was able to really kind 2759 02:50:29.719 --> 02:50:34.559 of spare its its own blood and treasure. Meanwhile, it 2760 02:50:34.719 --> 02:50:37.719 really kind of had the United States's number in terms 2761 02:50:37.760 --> 02:50:39.920 of it's war fighting doctor and in terms of strengths 2762 02:50:39.959 --> 02:50:45.239 and weaknesses, you know, and uh, while America was you know, 2763 02:50:46.159 --> 02:50:49.840 while America was taking heavy casualties in Vietnam, you know, 2764 02:50:49.959 --> 02:50:55.639 and UH and and uh and and and and people 2765 02:50:55.680 --> 02:50:59.959 were losing confidence in the dollar and things. You know, 2766 02:51:00.079 --> 02:51:03.680 the Soviet Union was really was was uh was was 2767 02:51:03.799 --> 02:51:07.079 under had undertaken It's owning a revolution in military affairs, 2768 02:51:07.559 --> 02:51:09.239 you know, but it had done so without you know, 2769 02:51:09.360 --> 02:51:12.559 like paying any costs and blood. And uh. Lard had 2770 02:51:12.600 --> 02:51:16.479 a good point there, and UH, this became very evident 2771 02:51:17.399 --> 02:51:19.600 post I think, and that's one of the reasons why 2772 02:51:21.200 --> 02:51:23.600 when Reagan took the oath of office, you know, a 2773 02:51:23.719 --> 02:51:29.280 decade later, there really was a sense that warsaw pat 2774 02:51:29.440 --> 02:51:32.639 constituted a clear and present danger that wasn't that wasn't 2775 02:51:32.639 --> 02:51:37.799 just propaganda or you know, a precursor to war fever 2776 02:51:38.040 --> 02:51:41.479 or something, or or ear an iteration of war fever, 2777 02:51:41.639 --> 02:51:48.120 what have you. What Lard did do was he said, uh, 2778 02:51:49.399 --> 02:51:51.879 you know, his big thing where where where he and 2779 02:51:52.000 --> 02:51:55.719 Nixon converged. He said that, you know, uh, we've uh, 2780 02:51:55.920 --> 02:51:57.760 we've got to be we've got to be more assertive 2781 02:51:58.040 --> 02:52:01.920 in in foreign affairs. We gotta be we gotta strengthen 2782 02:52:02.079 --> 02:52:05.280 you know, us influence you know over the over what 2783 02:52:05.440 --> 02:52:07.559 was then the European Community, you know, because the EU 2784 02:52:07.639 --> 02:52:11.120 didn't exist yet. You know, He's like, we've got to consolidate. 2785 02:52:12.399 --> 02:52:14.559 We we we've got to consolidate, you know, the whold 2786 02:52:14.639 --> 02:52:16.760 we have on Japan and Korea, you know, to make 2787 02:52:16.799 --> 02:52:22.280 sure that's permanent, you know. When uh and uh, he 2788 02:52:22.360 --> 02:52:27.120 said that, you know, absolutely incredible nuclear determs is essential 2789 02:52:27.200 --> 02:52:31.479 to essential sound foreign policy. But he said that strong 2790 02:52:31.600 --> 02:52:35.399 conventional defense is is is just as important, you know. 2791 02:52:35.680 --> 02:52:37.799 And the uh he came back to this point again 2792 02:52:37.799 --> 02:52:39.959 and again. Like I said, he's like, you know, you're 2793 02:52:40.600 --> 02:52:43.799 you're you're gonna be basically turn people against the military 2794 02:52:43.920 --> 02:52:46.719 established man that we're constantly engaged in these brush fire wars. 2795 02:52:47.520 --> 02:52:50.000 And I understand, I understand that point, but I don't 2796 02:52:50.040 --> 02:52:53.159 accept it. But it uh, you know, my point is, 2797 02:52:53.200 --> 02:52:55.440 like I said, like, it wasn't It wasn't some crazy idea. 2798 02:52:56.280 --> 02:53:05.319 It's uh the Viyitnamization, uh regime. You know, Nixon's policy 2799 02:53:05.399 --> 02:53:10.159 a disengagement with the South, you know well well, butcherssing 2800 02:53:10.200 --> 02:53:14.559 its forces and being you know, in material terms as 2801 02:53:14.600 --> 02:53:17.040 well as as well as in terms of morale and 2802 02:53:17.159 --> 02:53:21.040 you know, transform transform the army of the Republic of Vietnam. 2803 02:53:21.120 --> 02:53:25.559 It is something comic capable that very much that policy 2804 02:53:25.600 --> 02:53:29.399 course very much came from Nixon, but Melvin Lair with 2805 02:53:29.479 --> 02:53:31.879 the rubber met the road, you know, kind of uh 2806 02:53:33.600 --> 02:53:36.600 saw to it being implemented. So it's profs for that. 2807 02:53:38.959 --> 02:53:44.239 The uh. One of the early riffs between Layered and 2808 02:53:45.120 --> 02:53:48.040 and and and Nixon and Kissinger. I mean basically the 2809 02:53:48.200 --> 02:53:52.680 entire like executive basically the entire executive National Security staff 2810 02:53:52.719 --> 02:53:54.799 of the White House, like you know, other than himself. 2811 02:53:56.319 --> 02:54:02.680 In sixty nine, that's when the secret bombing is Cambodia began. 2812 02:54:03.479 --> 02:54:05.760 You know, Cambodia was officially neutral. I mean, they were 2813 02:54:05.799 --> 02:54:08.159 engaged in their own like bloody civil war. There's all 2814 02:54:08.239 --> 02:54:11.639 kinds of intrigues there. And what's fascinating is that as 2815 02:54:11.680 --> 02:54:14.479 the sin of Soviet split kind of set in, there's 2816 02:54:14.559 --> 02:54:16.840 very much a proxy war between the Soviet Union and 2817 02:54:17.079 --> 02:54:22.079 and Red China in Cambodia, you know, between the between 2818 02:54:22.079 --> 02:54:27.000 the Soviet client North Vietnamese like later just you know, 2819 02:54:27.079 --> 02:54:35.040 the Vietnamese army and the Khmer rouge. But that next 2820 02:54:35.079 --> 02:54:42.360 an increasingly sidelined Laird and these key decisions, and that's 2821 02:54:42.440 --> 02:54:45.360 there's an interesting parallel I with with Iran contract there, 2822 02:54:45.639 --> 02:54:48.639 which which Warrants mentioned. I want I want deep dive 2823 02:54:48.680 --> 02:54:50.799 into that now because obviously it would be here all afternoon. 2824 02:54:51.600 --> 02:54:59.000 But it's Laird. Laird understood. Laird said, basically looked like 2825 02:54:59.120 --> 02:55:01.000 this wasn't a matter of priety, is you know, it's 2826 02:55:01.040 --> 02:55:03.959 not a matter of me being affronted that you know, 2827 02:55:04.040 --> 02:55:06.040 despite the vegu of Secretary Defense, I being left out 2828 02:55:06.079 --> 02:55:08.840 of these decisions but he said, there's an inevident there's 2829 02:55:08.840 --> 02:55:11.399 an evidence there's going to be an inevitable disclosed public 2830 02:55:11.479 --> 02:55:17.920 disclosure of uh of these bombings, and UH public outrage 2831 02:55:18.360 --> 02:55:22.680 UH authentic or not cultivated or not by by hostile 2832 02:55:22.719 --> 02:55:29.520 elements is gonna is gonna harm the harm wrought by 2833 02:55:29.559 --> 02:55:34.159 that is gonna neutralize any tactical advantage by hitting these North. 2834 02:55:34.520 --> 02:55:37.440 These North made me sanctuaries in Cambodia. And Larry was 2835 02:55:37.479 --> 02:55:41.600 actually right about that. And again, I mean, may what 2836 02:55:41.840 --> 02:55:44.040 what what was the anti war movement? And was it 2837 02:55:44.280 --> 02:55:47.159 was its focused on these discrete policy decisions, you know, 2838 02:55:47.360 --> 02:55:50.719 like the secret bonding of Cambodia. Was that like authentic 2839 02:55:51.079 --> 02:55:55.120 uh outrage? I don't know, Okay, not at all. It 2840 02:55:55.280 --> 02:55:58.079 was it was it was the It was the nineteen 2841 02:55:58.079 --> 02:56:03.680 sixty eight equivalent sorrows inc you know, color revolutioning, uh, 2842 02:56:03.959 --> 02:56:06.799 the American street against mister Nixon and the Vietnam War 2843 02:56:07.200 --> 02:56:09.959 with of course the help of warsaw paged intelligence agencies. 2844 02:56:10.479 --> 02:56:12.600 But that didn't matter. The point is that's what it 2845 02:56:12.600 --> 02:56:15.040 would be a catalyst for. And of course I mean 2846 02:56:15.200 --> 02:56:18.799 the you gonn almost hear the Nixon rebuttal of that 2847 02:56:18.959 --> 02:56:21.559 of you know, we're not we're not gonna let these 2848 02:56:21.639 --> 02:56:24.840 like we're not gonna let some like commy cocksuckers in 2849 02:56:24.920 --> 02:56:28.680 Berkeley like dictate like the course of policy, particularly not 2850 02:56:28.840 --> 02:56:31.760 you know, the course of war and peace decisions, because 2851 02:56:31.879 --> 02:56:35.280 you know, bombing nominally neutral states that are actually communist 2852 02:56:35.319 --> 02:56:39.559 sanctuaries is bad PR. But Laird was absolutely right. Okay, 2853 02:56:39.840 --> 02:56:43.000 And you know, you if you're the president of the 2854 02:56:43.040 --> 02:56:47.079 United States, you know you're presiding over the political culture 2855 02:56:47.159 --> 02:56:52.600 that you're presiding over, and misguidance it may be, you know, 2856 02:56:52.879 --> 02:56:57.760 like comically improper as it may be. You know, you 2857 02:56:57.879 --> 02:57:00.280 are dealing with the hostile media. If you're a mister Nixon, 2858 02:57:00.319 --> 02:57:03.040 her mister Trump, that's going to do early in his 2859 02:57:03.120 --> 02:57:05.479 power to remove you from office. And these things must 2860 02:57:05.520 --> 02:57:08.159 be considered. Now, that does not mean that you're refrained 2861 02:57:08.200 --> 02:57:12.120 from assaulting Cambodia if it's a if it's if it's 2862 02:57:12.159 --> 02:57:14.799 a tactical necessity. What it does mean is that you 2863 02:57:14.879 --> 02:57:17.079 finesse it the right way, and you know, you don't 2864 02:57:17.079 --> 02:57:20.000 do it in secret and cut the Secretary of Defense 2865 02:57:20.040 --> 02:57:25.120 out of the equation. But that that really kind of, uh, 2866 02:57:26.559 --> 02:57:30.319 that really uh, that really was kind of the nail 2867 02:57:30.319 --> 02:57:33.200 in the cop and the relationship between Laird and and 2868 02:57:33.440 --> 02:57:37.520 and Nixon and Kissinger, and later when when it was disclosed, 2869 02:57:38.319 --> 02:57:41.920 when the bombing of Cambodia was disclosed, and these mass 2870 02:57:42.000 --> 02:57:44.959 protests broke out, which with a precursor to the to 2871 02:57:45.040 --> 02:57:50.239 the Kent State uh tragedy, which I don't know, people, 2872 02:57:50.360 --> 02:57:54.760 I didn't know that until fairly recently. I mean I 2873 02:57:54.840 --> 02:57:56.600 knew like when that. I knew when the camp I 2874 02:57:56.639 --> 02:57:58.719 knew when the Cambodia bombies occurred, I knew when Kent 2875 02:57:58.760 --> 02:58:01.520 State happened. I didn't realize that like that, at least 2876 02:58:01.559 --> 02:58:05.959 the nominal pretext for the big protest was was the 2877 02:58:06.000 --> 02:58:14.200 bombing of Cambodia. But uh, when this was disclosed, the media, uh, 2878 02:58:15.159 --> 02:58:20.879 Nixon through Kissinger very publicly accused Laird of of leaking it, 2879 02:58:21.360 --> 02:58:26.399 you know, just uh, which was a pretty was a 2880 02:58:26.479 --> 02:58:30.760 pretty pretty serious allegation. I haven't deep dived into the issue. 2881 02:58:30.799 --> 02:58:32.440 I can't really comment in that. I would have been 2882 02:58:32.479 --> 02:58:35.760 surprised if that was the case. Somebody Lard was a 2883 02:58:35.799 --> 02:58:38.799 serious guy, however you or I feel about his politics. 2884 02:58:40.760 --> 02:58:43.680 He wouldn't have compromised. A guy like Lard wouldn't have 2885 02:58:43.760 --> 02:58:48.319 compromised the you know, an active war effort, you know, 2886 02:58:48.440 --> 02:58:50.639 to stick it to mister Nixon or to score points 2887 02:58:50.719 --> 02:58:54.559 with the with the with with with with with with 2888 02:58:54.879 --> 02:58:58.159 Woodward and Bernstein types. I. I just can't see that happening. 2889 02:58:59.040 --> 02:59:06.399 But uh, be as it may, this was another I 2890 02:59:06.440 --> 02:59:08.719 mean this, this was in another dysfunction of the Nixon 2891 02:59:08.799 --> 02:59:10.440 White House. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I 2892 02:59:10.520 --> 02:59:14.200 think Nixon was actually fighting the Vietnam War to win it. 2893 02:59:16.159 --> 02:59:19.600 And uh next episode will also get into the man 2894 02:59:19.680 --> 02:59:24.840 of Creighton Abrams, General Creighton Abrams, who succeeded Westmoreland, And 2895 02:59:25.079 --> 02:59:32.159 uh I I think of Westmoreland almost, uh almost, uh 2896 02:59:33.520 --> 02:59:35.959 almost like a McLellan of his era, you know, like 2897 02:59:36.120 --> 02:59:40.280 very much, very much, very much a being counter or 2898 02:59:40.399 --> 02:59:43.120 like a lesser or like a middle level executive and 2899 02:59:43.440 --> 02:59:48.840 in particularly innovative company, you know, in in in in 2900 02:59:49.000 --> 02:59:54.680 in in an army uniform. How Westmoreland advanced the way 2901 02:59:54.760 --> 02:59:59.959 he did remains a mystery. But again I I don't 2902 03:00:00.760 --> 03:00:02.120 there there's obviously not a help of a lot I 2903 03:00:02.159 --> 03:00:05.360 can add. There's not obviously not a help a lot 2904 03:00:05.360 --> 03:00:08.799 of insight I have into into the US military culture. 2905 03:00:09.159 --> 03:00:11.479 And uh, I mean having not seen it from within. 2906 03:00:12.360 --> 03:00:18.639 But the uh laird, Uh we'll wrap up here in 2907 03:00:18.680 --> 03:00:21.520 a minute. So that because uh, the next kind of 2908 03:00:21.520 --> 03:00:24.239 sub top I'm gonna get into is is huge. But 2909 03:00:24.440 --> 03:00:30.360 the there's a legacy the laired I think he was 2910 03:00:30.440 --> 03:00:32.399 very much the last kind of like Secretary Defense that 2911 03:00:32.520 --> 03:00:36.079 had any real independence in policy matters now because he 2912 03:00:36.200 --> 03:00:40.000 was such an incredible, dynamic guy, but because subsequent presidents 2913 03:00:40.040 --> 03:00:44.440 did not make mistake that Nixon did your secretary defense 2914 03:00:44.520 --> 03:00:49.159 during the Cold War, in my opinion, was was arguably 2915 03:00:49.159 --> 03:00:52.719 as important as as ah as one as a selection 2916 03:00:52.840 --> 03:01:00.239 for Attorney general. But uh, that's that's a that could be. Uh. 2917 03:01:01.079 --> 03:01:02.879 I guess they could be arguing a number of different ways, 2918 03:01:03.600 --> 03:01:06.000 but I think this might be a kind of a 2919 03:01:06.040 --> 03:01:08.920 natural stopping point. I. 2920 03:01:09.159 --> 03:01:11.799 Uh, you can do your you can do your plugs. 2921 03:01:11.840 --> 03:01:16.079 You can also announce that Twitter is being Twitter again. 2922 03:01:16.520 --> 03:01:18.239 You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think. 2923 03:01:21.479 --> 03:01:25.760 Account you know yeah yeah. I was suspended from Twitter 2924 03:01:26.120 --> 03:01:27.680 the week Elon took over. 2925 03:01:29.239 --> 03:01:31.840 It's just bizarre and like as they suspended him and 2926 03:01:31.959 --> 03:01:33.680 he's is a legit guy, and like he's afraid to 2927 03:01:33.680 --> 03:01:36.120 speak his mind, Like what what what would what? He 2928 03:01:36.200 --> 03:01:39.040 doesn't he doesn't he like blogs about I mean, he's 2929 03:01:39.120 --> 03:01:40.680 he's he's like kind of a mega guy. But what 2930 03:01:40.799 --> 03:01:42.760 what the hell is he dropping that's offensive to Twitter? 2931 03:01:43.360 --> 03:01:44.680 You know, like it's just totally random. 2932 03:01:46.600 --> 03:01:49.440 Accept his love for docking back for the attack. That's 2933 03:01:49.479 --> 03:01:50.559 the only thing that really. 2934 03:01:52.799 --> 03:01:55.319 But it makes no sense, like even like like the 2935 03:01:55.360 --> 03:01:57.639 things that even usually throw like their triggers like he 2936 03:01:57.879 --> 03:02:00.840 or whatever, like he like why bing him? But it's 2937 03:02:02.559 --> 03:02:04.879 but the uh but yeah, I mean and it's I 2938 03:02:05.120 --> 03:02:07.360 I but who people not every time does this has 2939 03:02:07.399 --> 03:02:10.360 happened literally a dozen times. It happens like every several weeks. 2940 03:02:10.559 --> 03:02:12.799 Everyone it happens. People act like I die or something. 2941 03:02:13.319 --> 03:02:15.399 It's like I do a lot of just like goofy 2942 03:02:15.479 --> 03:02:18.120 shit posting on Twitter. I drop some serious stuff there too, 2943 03:02:18.799 --> 03:02:22.319 but that's like it's kind of a big nothing man 2944 03:02:22.520 --> 03:02:24.600 like I use it to promote what we're doing so 2945 03:02:24.680 --> 03:02:26.639 that our people can find us, you know, and and 2946 03:02:26.760 --> 03:02:29.239 tune in for like the stuff we're doing here. This 2947 03:02:29.360 --> 03:02:31.959 idea that it's like this awesome platform that we need. 2948 03:02:32.079 --> 03:02:34.319 We don't fucking need that shit. Like I built my 2949 03:02:34.440 --> 03:02:37.479 brand when I was on no social media at all. Okay, 2950 03:02:38.360 --> 03:02:42.520 I do have an account there that is active, But 2951 03:02:42.680 --> 03:02:44.840 I I'm gonna be low key about it because like I, 2952 03:02:45.079 --> 03:02:47.680 I don't know who the hell knows like what they're 2953 03:02:48.559 --> 03:02:52.120 you know what what the kind of one can never tell, 2954 03:02:52.239 --> 03:02:53.719 like what what the lay of the land is in 2955 03:02:53.840 --> 03:02:56.239 terms of you know the I mean, who can who 2956 03:02:56.280 --> 03:03:00.399 can predict arbitrary and caprecious action, which is by definition 2957 03:03:00.520 --> 03:03:06.719 is arbitrary caprecious. But I'm transitioning to YouTube, that's like 2958 03:03:06.799 --> 03:03:09.200 my primary platform. I'm gonna back it up on Odyssey 2959 03:03:09.280 --> 03:03:12.120 and stuff. Yes, I realized YouTube is censorious as well, 2960 03:03:12.239 --> 03:03:16.399 but I mean I've been we're we're kind of we're 2961 03:03:16.440 --> 03:03:18.680 kind of leaving Twitter behind anyway. But yeah, so I 2962 03:03:18.719 --> 03:03:20.440 don't want people acting like this is like the end 2963 03:03:20.440 --> 03:03:22.399 of the fucking world. Like it just it bothers me 2964 03:03:22.440 --> 03:03:26.559 when people act that way. But the but the yeah, 2965 03:03:26.760 --> 03:03:29.120 I mean find me on substack real Thomas seven seven 2966 03:03:29.200 --> 03:03:33.959 seven dot substick dot com. I'm on Instagram just at 2967 03:03:34.159 --> 03:03:37.000 like number seven h m A S seven seven seven. 2968 03:03:38.239 --> 03:03:40.079 The YouTube channels launching at the end of the month. 2969 03:03:40.159 --> 03:03:43.280 Like I said, I'm very excited about it, Like I 2970 03:03:43.360 --> 03:03:46.239 really am it. I there's a lot of potential there 2971 03:03:47.559 --> 03:03:49.479 and I think people will be very happy with it, 2972 03:03:51.440 --> 03:03:53.719 and I've got I'm very blessed to have some really 2973 03:03:53.760 --> 03:03:57.520 great people helping me produce it, because I certainly would 2974 03:03:57.559 --> 03:03:59.920 be pissing into the wind on on the production side 2975 03:04:00.879 --> 03:04:04.000 or not for them. But yeah, and Steel Storm two 2976 03:04:04.079 --> 03:04:07.360 is available at Imperium Press. That's the second installment in 2977 03:04:07.440 --> 03:04:11.840 my science fiction series. So yeah, please check it out 2978 03:04:12.319 --> 03:04:14.079 if you're a fan of my work product and or 2979 03:04:14.159 --> 03:04:17.079 science fiction. And that's that's all I got. 2980 03:04:17.959 --> 03:04:20.799 Well, once again, thank you, and it's all the next time. 2981 03:04:22.319 --> 03:04:25.319 I want to welcome everyone back to the Kenyona Show, 2982 03:04:26.319 --> 03:04:29.360 part nine of the Cold War series. How you doing, Thomas, 2983 03:04:30.120 --> 03:04:30.680 I very well. 2984 03:04:30.840 --> 03:04:34.159 Thanks. Today I wanted to talk about something that's sort 2985 03:04:34.200 --> 03:04:36.120 of a forgotten that themned them to the Vietnam War, 2986 03:04:36.440 --> 03:04:43.159 And like I raised before we went live, there's some 2987 03:04:44.000 --> 03:04:47.120 there's some pretty haunting things about Vietnam. I don't want 2988 03:04:47.120 --> 03:04:49.200 to sound allo dramatic, and I don't mean in the 2989 03:04:49.239 --> 03:04:54.159 way that it's presented in most court history narratives, but 2990 03:04:54.319 --> 03:04:59.079 there are there's a lot of dishonesty about the conflict, 2991 03:04:59.159 --> 03:05:03.040 particularly among you know, in the accounts of men who 2992 03:05:03.559 --> 03:05:08.959 served in the executive branch Now, if you go to 2993 03:05:09.000 --> 03:05:12.559 the Vietnam War Memorial, you know the wall in Washington, DC. 2994 03:05:13.639 --> 03:05:17.239 And I didn't notice this until two thousand and five. 2995 03:05:18.559 --> 03:05:22.799 You know, these the black marble or granted whatever it is. 2996 03:05:24.399 --> 03:05:26.680 I'm not a big fan of the memorial, honestly, like 2997 03:05:26.760 --> 03:05:28.719 the way it's designed. I think it's kind of morbid. 2998 03:05:28.840 --> 03:05:34.719 But because it may, each section is designated by conflict gear, 2999 03:05:35.040 --> 03:05:36.360 you know, so it's like all the men who died 3000 03:05:36.360 --> 03:05:38.840 in nineteen sixty seven in hostile action, you know, they'll 3001 03:05:39.079 --> 03:05:43.319 they'll be like their names the final panels nineteen seventy five. 3002 03:05:45.840 --> 03:05:49.479 So I figured, okay, that's probably I didn't think there 3003 03:05:49.479 --> 03:05:53.079 are any casualties of the embassy marines or whatever during 3004 03:05:54.319 --> 03:06:00.840 occupation or operation. I think it was enduring wind the 3005 03:06:00.879 --> 03:06:04.040 evacuation of Saigon. But I noticed there's like thirty eight 3006 03:06:04.159 --> 03:06:07.639 or some names on it, and I'm like, that's not right. 3007 03:06:09.200 --> 03:06:14.719 And uh lo, and behold the men who died on 3008 03:06:14.920 --> 03:06:17.559 Ko Tang, the Battle of Ko Tang Island against the 3009 03:06:17.639 --> 03:06:21.600 Khmer Rouge, where it just kind of as an afterthought 3010 03:06:21.719 --> 03:06:23.879 tacked down to the Vietnam War Wall, which doesn't make 3011 03:06:23.920 --> 03:06:27.000 any sense. The Battle of Kotang was not the final 3012 03:06:27.120 --> 03:06:30.719 battle of the Vietnam War. It was against an entirely 3013 03:06:30.920 --> 03:06:33.360 it was against it, you know, it was waved against 3014 03:06:33.360 --> 03:06:37.559 an entirely different regime in an entirely different country for 3015 03:06:37.959 --> 03:06:41.040 totally unrelated reasons. And I found that to be kind 3016 03:06:41.079 --> 03:06:46.879 of grotesque. But some years later Rumsfeld wrote a couple 3017 03:06:46.920 --> 03:06:52.440 of books. Okay, he wrote his autobiography and then he 3018 03:06:52.479 --> 03:06:56.479 wrote his memoirs. And Rumsfeld really cut his teeth in 3019 03:06:56.639 --> 03:07:02.360 government as the White Awshiva staff from the Ford administration, 3020 03:07:03.600 --> 03:07:05.719 and he talked about the Battle of Ko Tang like 3021 03:07:05.840 --> 03:07:08.399 it was this great operation and you know, there was 3022 03:07:08.440 --> 03:07:11.079 only I think he said there was only three casualties, 3023 03:07:11.120 --> 03:07:14.799 which is perverse. And we'll get into why. It was 3024 03:07:14.840 --> 03:07:17.600 just like an out and out lie. And this disturbed me. 3025 03:07:17.680 --> 03:07:20.559 I mean, I suppose the rebuttal would be, well, you know, 3026 03:07:20.719 --> 03:07:23.479 Rumsfeld is recalling things then that were, you know, thirty 3027 03:07:23.520 --> 03:07:26.879 five years in the past. Rumsfeld had a photographic memory. 3028 03:07:27.200 --> 03:07:30.719 He used to brag about that. And Uh, my dad 3029 03:07:30.799 --> 03:07:34.479 made the point. When my dad got out of the army, Uh, 3030 03:07:34.639 --> 03:07:38.959 he went to work for McGeorge Bundy and they developed 3031 03:07:39.040 --> 03:07:42.000 kind of a rapport, you know. Uh, and my dad 3032 03:07:42.079 --> 03:07:45.840 used to drive him around and stuff like that. And uh, 3033 03:07:46.120 --> 03:07:51.000 my dad met Rumsfeld during his tenure with Bundy. You know, 3034 03:07:51.079 --> 03:07:53.760 my dad was just like a nobody, you know, so 3035 03:07:53.879 --> 03:07:56.239 there was no way for Rumsfeld to remember him. And 3036 03:07:56.319 --> 03:08:02.200 then decades later, my dad and a Rumsfeld at some 3037 03:08:02.440 --> 03:08:05.239 like CFR thing, and Rumsfeld addressed him by his first 3038 03:08:05.360 --> 03:08:08.120 name because he just that's the way the guy is. 3039 03:08:08.200 --> 03:08:10.399 So Rumsfeld, what I'm getting his rumhold not forget what 3040 03:08:10.479 --> 03:08:12.879 the casualties were at Ko Tang, and he didn't just 3041 03:08:12.879 --> 03:08:17.879 get confused about, you know, what actually happened there. Nor 3042 03:08:18.000 --> 03:08:21.040 do I believe somebody ghost wrote the book and Rumsfeld 3043 03:08:21.040 --> 03:08:25.680 didn't fact check it. So I mean that's I guess 3044 03:08:25.719 --> 03:08:27.399 what what kind of jumped out of me is that 3045 03:08:27.520 --> 03:08:29.440 this this was still being kind of swept under the 3046 03:08:29.520 --> 03:08:33.159 rug like decades later. So what was the Mayagas incident 3047 03:08:33.280 --> 03:08:38.840 and why is it important? Well? On May twelfth, ninety 3048 03:08:38.879 --> 03:08:46.239 seventy five, uh a uh an American cargo ship s S. 3049 03:08:46.559 --> 03:08:50.120 Mayag Is the A crew at thirty nine. It was 3050 03:08:50.719 --> 03:08:56.360 off the territorial coast of Cambodia, you know, which was 3051 03:08:56.440 --> 03:08:59.040 then which was then ruled by the commuter route. You know, 3052 03:08:59.079 --> 03:09:02.680 two weeks before and UH they had conquered the capitol, 3053 03:09:04.719 --> 03:09:10.440 they got captured. The Kremier Rugs claimed that they were 3054 03:09:10.479 --> 03:09:15.040 in territorial waters. UH. The captain of the Mayagas subsequently 3055 03:09:15.120 --> 03:09:19.079 claimed like they were fired upon by teeth by peat 3056 03:09:19.319 --> 03:09:26.799 by pt boats and you know, corralled into Cambodian territory. Regardless, 3057 03:09:28.600 --> 03:09:34.120 this whole crew was seized. UH. This UH had echoes 3058 03:09:34.200 --> 03:09:38.040 of UH when the North Koreans had UH seized the Pueblo, 3059 03:09:38.799 --> 03:09:41.479 which is the navy intelligence vessel in nineteen sixty eight, 3060 03:09:42.920 --> 03:09:46.799 and UH, the North Koreans grabbed the Pueblo at the 3061 03:09:46.879 --> 03:09:49.000 height of the tet offensive and being there it was 3062 03:09:49.040 --> 03:09:52.559 an intelligent ship, the North Koreans were able to seize 3063 03:09:52.639 --> 03:09:57.120 encryption equipment. And it's believed that, UH, it's believed that 3064 03:09:57.239 --> 03:10:00.239 John Walker, not John Walker Land, a different John Wallcker 3065 03:10:00.280 --> 03:10:05.360 who became associated with infamy and freezing. He was this 3066 03:10:05.520 --> 03:10:09.600 naval officer who, UH, as it turned out, was spying 3067 03:10:09.680 --> 03:10:12.600 for the Soviet Union for decades. And it's believed that 3068 03:10:12.879 --> 03:10:17.360 you know, the North Koreans conveyed UH this naval encryption 3069 03:10:17.520 --> 03:10:22.280 equipment to Moscow. Walker then provided Moscow with like the 3070 03:10:22.959 --> 03:10:25.319 with the ciphers so that they could you know, that 3071 03:10:25.440 --> 03:10:31.440 the Soviets could could decode you know, the encrypted language. 3072 03:10:31.879 --> 03:10:33.399 So I mean this was a this was a big deal, 3073 03:10:33.920 --> 03:10:40.879 you know, and it it and it you know, there, 3074 03:10:41.079 --> 03:10:44.200 even if Johnson had a stronger mandate, and even if 3075 03:10:44.239 --> 03:10:47.360 the Vietnam War was going better, Uh, the United States 3076 03:10:47.399 --> 03:10:49.600 wasn't really a position you know, opened up another front 3077 03:10:49.639 --> 03:10:51.680 in Asia and you know, wage war with North Korea. 3078 03:10:52.760 --> 03:10:55.079 But there's evidence that in part the North Koreans via 3079 03:10:55.159 --> 03:10:58.319 the Chinese, were very much trying to facilitate that. But 3080 03:10:59.000 --> 03:11:01.000 that's a little bit outside this go. But in any event, 3081 03:11:02.639 --> 03:11:04.280 Ford was not going to allow a repeat of the 3082 03:11:04.280 --> 03:11:11.840 Pueblo incident. So immediately, obviously, you know, the uh, the 3083 03:11:12.440 --> 03:11:18.920 the National Security Council convened secondary defense, UH, which at 3084 03:11:18.959 --> 03:11:25.319 the time was Schlessinger, who uh, I've got nothing nice 3085 03:11:25.360 --> 03:11:28.959 to say about. People who remember him at all generally 3086 03:11:29.040 --> 03:11:32.239 remember him for some incredibly slanderous things that he said 3087 03:11:32.239 --> 03:11:36.360 about President Nixon. But he uh, you know, Nixon played 3088 03:11:36.440 --> 03:11:41.280 musical chairs with his cabinet kind of like mister Trump did. 3089 03:11:41.399 --> 03:11:43.760 Although there was obviously there was more kind of rhyme 3090 03:11:43.799 --> 03:11:49.040 and reason to to uh Nixon's staff decisions. But uh, 3091 03:11:49.399 --> 03:11:53.520 Schlessinger had succeeded Elliott Richardson. Elliot Richardson had succeeded Melvin 3092 03:11:53.600 --> 03:11:55.520 Laird Like none of these men like Stir for more 3093 03:11:55.639 --> 03:11:59.239 than several months. Okay, but he was a holdover from 3094 03:11:59.239 --> 03:12:04.079 the Nickson ministry for better or worse. So is Kissinger, 3095 03:12:04.120 --> 03:12:10.120 who was Secretary of State at the time. But uh, 3096 03:12:11.399 --> 03:12:15.840 And what's important, what's important to keep in mind during 3097 03:12:15.920 --> 03:12:18.319 this time is that there was no Special Operations Command. 3098 03:12:20.079 --> 03:12:23.719 The US military was kind of a mess. You know, 3099 03:12:23.840 --> 03:12:26.719 this was only this was less This was less than 3100 03:12:26.760 --> 03:12:30.040 a year and a half after the draft had had ended, 3101 03:12:31.159 --> 03:12:35.600 the all Volunteer Force was being implemented. There's a there's 3102 03:12:35.639 --> 03:12:39.280 a there's a draw down in uh in the number 3103 03:12:39.319 --> 03:12:46.280 of h division sized combat capable formations. So basically, uh, 3104 03:12:47.360 --> 03:12:51.399 the the Cold War flash points in Europe and in 3105 03:12:51.440 --> 03:12:54.520 Asia were really being manned by a skeleton crew, as 3106 03:12:54.559 --> 03:12:57.319 it were, and there was not this like rapid deployment capability, 3107 03:12:57.360 --> 03:13:02.479 and there was no Special Operations Command. So you know, 3108 03:13:02.520 --> 03:13:06.280 the kind of instinctive response people have in reading about 3109 03:13:06.280 --> 03:13:08.280 the Mayagas was like, well, why didn't you know? What 3110 03:13:08.360 --> 03:13:11.440 didn't so commerce predecessor, just like deploy Navy seals or 3111 03:13:11.479 --> 03:13:17.360 something like that. Infrastructure didn't exist. And also and uh 3112 03:13:19.280 --> 03:13:23.440 as the crow flies. I think the closest UH combat 3113 03:13:23.520 --> 03:13:30.159 capable force to UH to Cambodia would have been located 3114 03:13:30.159 --> 03:13:32.920 in Okanawa. Nineteen seventy five. Okay, like this was, this 3115 03:13:33.120 --> 03:13:35.559 was this is heigh of the Cold War. You know, 3116 03:13:35.639 --> 03:13:39.239 this was not America did not have you know, four 3117 03:13:39.319 --> 03:13:43.840 deployments all over this planet, you know that, And it 3118 03:13:44.079 --> 03:13:47.520 didn't have the commanding control nor the forces in't being 3119 03:13:47.760 --> 03:13:52.079 you know, to respond to something like this instantaneously. Yeah, 3120 03:13:53.840 --> 03:13:55.879 but I mean I've seen it seems short sighted, I 3121 03:13:55.959 --> 03:13:58.719 guess that people today, But it's history in the rearview mirror, 3122 03:13:58.959 --> 03:14:00.840 Like this was not this kind of thing was not 3123 03:14:00.920 --> 03:14:03.440 really within the contemplation of of of the Department of 3124 03:14:03.479 --> 03:14:05.159 Defense either. It was it was not the kind of 3125 03:14:05.239 --> 03:14:09.159 exigencies that were emerging in nineteen seventy five in any 3126 03:14:09.479 --> 03:14:15.079 any kind of regular or predictable capacity. But because it 3127 03:14:15.159 --> 03:14:20.760 may like we talked about, like we talked about last 3128 03:14:21.159 --> 03:14:27.319 couple of episodes, Cambodia and the Kremie Rouge was absolutely 3129 03:14:27.479 --> 03:14:31.360 a client regime of the people's Republic in China. This 3130 03:14:31.520 --> 03:14:36.959 created some strange intrigues. As you know, Pet King was 3131 03:14:37.159 --> 03:14:40.920 decoupled from Moscow in a real way. And this was 3132 03:14:40.959 --> 03:14:45.399 you know, solidified by the efforts of a Nixon and Kissinger. 3133 03:14:47.239 --> 03:14:52.799 America had to tread somewhat lightly too in order to 3134 03:14:52.879 --> 03:14:59.920 preserve that just a uh an immediate kind of brought 3135 03:15:00.040 --> 03:15:04.680 spectrum assault on Khmer Rouge Cambodia, which they had they 3136 03:15:04.760 --> 03:15:09.280 were calling Democratic Campuccia. That would have caused real problems 3137 03:15:10.719 --> 03:15:15.760 and uh that could have uh that wouldn't have this 3138 03:15:16.079 --> 03:15:19.120 the Sino Soviet split by that point, was that the 3139 03:15:19.239 --> 03:15:23.079 chasm was too great. Proverbially, that wouldn't have driven the 3140 03:15:23.239 --> 03:15:26.159 Chinese back into the arms of Warsaw Pact, but it 3141 03:15:26.319 --> 03:15:31.159 definitely would have generated momentum in that direction. Okay, So 3142 03:15:31.280 --> 03:15:33.719 that's kind of the subtext of this, and that's one 3143 03:15:33.760 --> 03:15:36.040 of the reasons why I think it's an important It's 3144 03:15:36.079 --> 03:15:38.680 not just you know, like a footnote of history. It's 3145 03:15:38.719 --> 03:15:41.879 something that deserves to be talked about, not just because 3146 03:15:41.879 --> 03:15:44.440 the men that were lost there and and the three 3147 03:15:44.479 --> 03:15:46.920 of them in particular stuff for an utterly horrible fate 3148 03:15:47.280 --> 03:15:53.159 that we'll get into, but it's imperative to understand, uh, 3149 03:15:54.079 --> 03:15:57.600 you know, how complicated and how strange the late Cold 3150 03:15:57.680 --> 03:16:05.520 War became. And obviously later you know, uh, in nineteen 3151 03:16:05.520 --> 03:16:09.559 seventy nine, the Hanoi government quite literally went to war 3152 03:16:09.639 --> 03:16:19.559 with China, and uh, concomitantly, you know, the the Vietnamese 3153 03:16:19.559 --> 03:16:23.159 assaulted into Cambodia, deposed the Khmer Rouge and and this 3154 03:16:23.360 --> 03:16:27.440 you know, decades long conflict ensued, you know, between the 3155 03:16:27.520 --> 03:16:30.520 Vietnamese occupiers and the Khmer Rouge have been driven off 3156 03:16:30.559 --> 03:16:33.840 into the bush, which was very much a proxy war 3157 03:16:33.959 --> 03:16:36.600 between the people's public as China and the Soviet Union, 3158 03:16:37.479 --> 03:16:40.680 which I mean not to be flippant about it, because 3159 03:16:40.840 --> 03:16:44.719 I mean, you know this, the cost in human suffering 3160 03:16:44.879 --> 03:16:49.360 was immense, but uh, creating generating that conflict was kind 3161 03:16:49.399 --> 03:16:52.280 of a master stroke of the Nixon White House and 3162 03:16:52.360 --> 03:16:59.239 subsequent administrations who continued to cultivate that divide and conquer strategy. 3163 03:17:00.159 --> 03:17:06.559 But there's some uh, there's some evidence, uh, if one 3164 03:17:06.639 --> 03:17:10.440 knows what to look for, the Chinese had absolutely no 3165 03:17:10.559 --> 03:17:15.200 interest in sabotaging the kind of strategic alliance for the 3166 03:17:15.399 --> 03:17:18.239 America which was then still pretty fresh. But at the 3167 03:17:18.319 --> 03:17:22.799 same time, you know, China was not America's friend, and 3168 03:17:23.399 --> 03:17:27.360 they were just as prone to intrigues as uh. As ever, 3169 03:17:28.440 --> 03:17:32.280 I believe that the Chinese probably directed uh the Kmier 3170 03:17:32.399 --> 03:17:37.799 rouge to seize them uh, to seize the uh mayagas 3171 03:17:38.200 --> 03:17:41.120 or at least once it happened, you know, they they 3172 03:17:41.280 --> 03:17:46.559 they they they endorsed that move. And I think the 3173 03:17:46.719 --> 03:17:49.280 I think the long game for Pet King was that 3174 03:17:49.959 --> 03:17:52.920 then they could intervene as like negotiator. It would be 3175 03:17:53.000 --> 03:17:55.079 a way to kind of bloody Uncle Sam's nose in 3176 03:17:55.200 --> 03:17:59.000 terms of global credibility, you know, cast China as uh 3177 03:18:00.319 --> 03:18:04.360 you know kind of uh the arbiter of a of 3178 03:18:05.959 --> 03:18:09.799 of warrant piece affairs in the Orient and uh. Plus 3179 03:18:09.879 --> 03:18:13.239 it would generate good will, at least in pay King's 3180 03:18:13.280 --> 03:18:17.719 mind with uh you know, whatever government replaced the Ford administration. 3181 03:18:18.559 --> 03:18:22.360 And that sounds totally backwards, it's strange, but that's the 3182 03:18:22.440 --> 03:18:26.520 way that the Chinese think and thought it is. It's 3183 03:18:26.520 --> 03:18:31.399 an arguable examples are myriad. If people think I'm just 3184 03:18:31.520 --> 03:18:33.239 you know, kind of mouthing off they don't like the 3185 03:18:33.360 --> 03:18:38.200 Chinese or whatever, But this was a delicate situation, is 3186 03:18:38.360 --> 03:18:42.120 uh what I'm getting at, you know, beyond the obvious 3187 03:18:42.239 --> 03:18:47.760 fact that that any kind of hostage rescue operation is 3188 03:18:48.280 --> 03:18:54.959 is is kind of the worst possible in operational terms, 3189 03:18:55.280 --> 03:18:58.479 UH circumstance to emerge. You know, one doesn't need to 3190 03:18:58.520 --> 03:19:01.200 be H one doesn't need to be some high speed 3191 03:19:01.360 --> 03:19:09.239 military type to recognize that. But the way it played 3192 03:19:09.280 --> 03:19:16.319 out in UH operational terms was for for it was 3193 03:19:16.360 --> 03:19:20.200 informed the seizure of the make of the Mayagas at 3194 03:19:20.280 --> 03:19:26.680 his UH morning briefing on UH the sixteenth, like I said, 3195 03:19:26.680 --> 03:19:31.360 the National Security Council was convened Brent Scowcroft, who, as 3196 03:19:31.399 --> 03:19:34.520 I'm sure people will recognize, you know, later went on 3197 03:19:35.639 --> 03:19:38.200 to play a major role in the Reagan administration, particularly 3198 03:19:38.200 --> 03:19:44.120 Reagan's first term. You know, he he basically early on 3199 03:19:44.399 --> 03:19:48.239 in the crisis was UH what was the one who 3200 03:19:48.360 --> 03:19:53.159 uh you know convened UH what ultimately became you know, 3201 03:19:53.239 --> 03:19:56.200 the parties who determined what what the what the operational 3202 03:19:56.280 --> 03:20:05.520 response would be for better or worse? The UH, the 3203 03:20:08.840 --> 03:20:11.639 the big concern I mean obviously aside from the you know, 3204 03:20:12.479 --> 03:20:17.239 the issues are just indicated relating to a relating the 3205 03:20:17.440 --> 03:20:20.840 UH US Chinese relations and everything else. America had a 3206 03:20:20.879 --> 03:20:23.879 major credibility problem, and like we talked, you know, owing 3207 03:20:23.920 --> 03:20:27.440 to the falls Saigon. And as we talked about I 3208 03:20:27.479 --> 03:20:30.920 think last episode, I'm not just overstating that because it's 3209 03:20:31.000 --> 03:20:35.319 kind of my peculiar emphasis as a revisionist. This was 3210 03:20:36.799 --> 03:20:41.159 in the Cold War, particularly as UH strategic parody set 3211 03:20:41.200 --> 03:20:44.680 in which UH in the later region of era was 3212 03:20:45.319 --> 03:20:47.079 I mean, it was was kind of the you know 3213 03:20:48.600 --> 03:20:52.360 what was was the height of that kind of paradigm shift. 3214 03:20:53.840 --> 03:20:57.040 The United States enjoying credibility and its ability to project 3215 03:20:57.079 --> 03:21:02.680 power successfully, you know, when a third world That's basically 3216 03:21:02.840 --> 03:21:08.520 what the entire Truman doctrine hinged upon, and the entire 3217 03:21:08.760 --> 03:21:14.239 American Cold War strategy in in military terms, hinged on 3218 03:21:14.319 --> 03:21:19.399 the Truman doctrine. Okay, so coming off of UH, coming 3219 03:21:19.479 --> 03:21:22.559 off of defeat and Saigon, despite you know, however much 3220 03:21:22.600 --> 03:21:24.559 that had been mitigated by the sound of Soviet split. 3221 03:21:25.280 --> 03:21:29.799 In pure military and strategic terms, if America had proven 3222 03:21:29.920 --> 03:21:34.280 unable or lacking in the will to respond UH to 3223 03:21:34.399 --> 03:21:39.159 the seizure, that mayegg isn't its crew Well, in you know, 3224 03:21:39.360 --> 03:21:43.959 military operational terms, that would have UH, that would have 3225 03:21:44.000 --> 03:21:49.159 had real world consequences and UH, and and that that's 3226 03:21:49.479 --> 03:21:51.399 that's really what was on the minds of you know, 3227 03:21:51.520 --> 03:21:58.120 Ford himself and everybody in his National Security cabinet. Ford 3228 03:21:58.159 --> 03:22:01.200 immediately issued a statement declaring at the seizure of the 3229 03:22:01.920 --> 03:22:04.719 vessel was an act of piracy, which is interesting language, 3230 03:22:04.719 --> 03:22:10.280 which wasn't really precedented. And the context understand that statement 3231 03:22:10.319 --> 03:22:12.959 within it wasn't just him, It wasn't just the president 3232 03:22:13.520 --> 03:22:17.280 relying upon you know, kind of cringe polemic. What he 3233 03:22:17.399 --> 03:22:18.959 was saying was, I mean, this this was the era 3234 03:22:19.079 --> 03:22:22.440 when people were banding that you know, the president had 3235 03:22:22.479 --> 03:22:26.559 to have you know, approval from Congress before he, uh, 3236 03:22:27.159 --> 03:22:29.440 you know, acted in the Article two commander in chief 3237 03:22:29.559 --> 03:22:32.159 role and like nonsense like the War Powers Act was 3238 03:22:32.200 --> 03:22:36.520 being floated. Okay, I don't want to start a constitutional debate, 3239 03:22:36.719 --> 03:22:40.360 but that kind of stuff was emergent from the hangover 3240 03:22:40.520 --> 03:22:43.120 over over the Vietnam conflict that that does not have 3241 03:22:43.200 --> 03:22:45.200 a leg to stand on according to the letter of 3242 03:22:45.239 --> 03:22:50.360 the Constitution. But because that was the tenor of discourse, 3243 03:22:51.440 --> 03:22:53.479 forded to send some kind of message that you know, 3244 03:22:53.799 --> 03:22:56.360 he was not gonna he was not gonna he was 3245 03:22:56.360 --> 03:22:58.959 not gonna await some kind of congressional debate. And whether 3246 03:22:59.040 --> 03:23:00.440 or not, you know, he was off the rise, he 3247 03:23:00.559 --> 03:23:03.120 was forc against the Premier Rouge. You know, he's saying, like, 3248 03:23:03.239 --> 03:23:08.079 you know, this is outside of the bounds of of 3249 03:23:08.440 --> 03:23:12.200 of ordinary international relations, and you know I'm gonna respond 3250 03:23:12.239 --> 03:23:14.479 to OVERI fit that's reading between the lines. I find 3251 03:23:14.479 --> 03:23:17.799 that very interesting. I can't think of a more unenviable 3252 03:23:18.959 --> 03:23:22.760 position to be in than, you know, the American president 3253 03:23:22.920 --> 03:23:27.719 in the aftermath of Watergate, being faced with a you know, 3254 03:23:28.399 --> 03:23:32.040 a kind of asymmetrical national security crisis like this that 3255 03:23:32.200 --> 03:23:36.600 calls for you know, immediate decisive action that I mean, 3256 03:23:36.639 --> 03:23:42.079 that's never a particularly desirable situation to find oneself in, 3257 03:23:42.280 --> 03:23:47.360 but in that era, and then specifically in that moment, 3258 03:23:47.639 --> 03:23:49.639 you know, weeks after the fullest I gone like I 3259 03:23:49.680 --> 03:23:58.559 can't even imagine. But secret to state Schlessinger, what he 3260 03:23:58.680 --> 03:24:02.159 did immediately was he directed the Joint Chiefs to order 3261 03:24:02.200 --> 03:24:08.079 their people in theater to locate the mayaga Is and 3262 03:24:08.120 --> 03:24:12.600 at all costs prevent the vessel's movement to mainland Cambodia, 3263 03:24:13.639 --> 03:24:17.319 employing all the des ury munitions required to do that, 3264 03:24:18.159 --> 03:24:21.120 but obviously taking care not to harm you know, the 3265 03:24:21.719 --> 03:24:27.120 hostage crew. Kissinger, and this was fascinating, immediately went into action. 3266 03:24:28.000 --> 03:24:30.319 But he didn't contact the Khmer Rouge or attempt to. 3267 03:24:31.479 --> 03:24:34.120 What he did was he conducted the Chinese liaison office 3268 03:24:34.159 --> 03:24:40.719 in Washington and he immediately demanded to release the mayag 3269 03:24:40.959 --> 03:24:45.520 is and to convey that message to the Khmer Rouge 3270 03:24:45.559 --> 03:24:51.440 on the ground. The whoever the formal diplomatic representative of 3271 03:24:51.559 --> 03:24:55.920 Pey King was, refused to accept the note, saying basically, 3272 03:24:55.959 --> 03:24:59.399 I can't take responsibility for this gets injured. Then tapped 3273 03:24:59.440 --> 03:25:04.399 George Herber Walker Busch, who at that time was leading 3274 03:25:04.559 --> 03:25:08.680 the counterpart lie as an office in Pey King. He 3275 03:25:08.840 --> 03:25:14.879 delivered the note personally to the Chinese Foreign Ministry and he, 3276 03:25:15.440 --> 03:25:18.799 according to Bush himself, and uh, I don't see why 3277 03:25:18.799 --> 03:25:24.680 you would lie about this. He conveyed orally that if 3278 03:25:24.719 --> 03:25:26.799 there was not you know, if the immediate release of 3279 03:25:27.200 --> 03:25:31.799 of the Mayaga's crew was not you know, was not realized, 3280 03:25:32.600 --> 03:25:39.040 that uh, the Khmer rou should be held responsible collectively 3281 03:25:39.319 --> 03:25:42.799 and there'd be a massive shock and awe assault on 3282 03:25:43.200 --> 03:25:49.399 Panolan Penn And again the this wasn't just diplomatic protocol 3283 03:25:49.559 --> 03:25:52.639 that both Kissinger and then Bush approached China. I mean 3284 03:25:52.639 --> 03:25:54.840 it goes to show you what was underway behind the scenes, 3285 03:25:54.879 --> 03:25:59.399 and that this obviously the most charitable view to take 3286 03:25:59.520 --> 03:26:02.559 of it is that, well, you know, the Khmer Rouge, 3287 03:26:02.799 --> 03:26:05.440 they were paranoid psychos and it was this kind of 3288 03:26:05.520 --> 03:26:09.360 backwards revolutionary regime. They grabbed the Mayagas just because they 3289 03:26:09.399 --> 03:26:12.360 were paranoid. Then when they realized, you know, that it 3290 03:26:12.440 --> 03:26:14.600 was a US flag vessel, they freaked out and didn't 3291 03:26:14.639 --> 03:26:18.559 know what to do. The most kind of punitive view 3292 03:26:18.639 --> 03:26:21.360 of it is that, you know what I the possibility 3293 03:26:21.399 --> 03:26:24.959 I raised a moment ago, was that the Chinese orchestrated this, 3294 03:26:25.159 --> 03:26:31.879 as you know, part of a Machiavilian kind of intrigue drama, 3295 03:26:32.079 --> 03:26:34.280 which they've done in the past, frankly, and continue to 3296 03:26:34.319 --> 03:26:37.879 do so today, albeit and less punctuated in violent terms. 3297 03:26:38.440 --> 03:26:43.319 But regardless, Washington obviously was aware that, you know, China 3298 03:26:43.440 --> 03:26:47.479 was either responsible for this and in approximate causal terms 3299 03:26:47.879 --> 03:26:51.920 or had the power to force a resolution. And that 3300 03:26:52.040 --> 03:26:54.319 tells you everything you need to know about the relationship 3301 03:26:54.360 --> 03:26:57.639 between the Khmer Rouge, the Vietnamese, the Soviet Union, China 3302 03:26:57.680 --> 03:27:07.159 in the United States. H Subsequently, the Khmuho's tried to 3303 03:27:07.399 --> 03:27:12.959 do exactly that, release the Mayaga's crew unharmed, which we'll see, 3304 03:27:13.079 --> 03:27:17.719 and I think that further substantiates, you know, my kind 3305 03:27:17.760 --> 03:27:22.959 of uh spitball analysis. But I, like I said, I'm 3306 03:27:23.000 --> 03:27:26.319 not I'm not just speculating or conspiracy theorizing. I think 3307 03:27:26.319 --> 03:27:30.920 anyone who spends time with the factual record and you know, 3308 03:27:31.120 --> 03:27:34.719 kind of read between the lines of American diplomacy speak, 3309 03:27:35.479 --> 03:27:42.120 I think this becomes clear. Okay, back to the uh 3310 03:27:42.840 --> 03:27:48.159 kind of practical operational side of it, though the uh 3311 03:27:50.479 --> 03:27:56.120 it was on the the following day, it was confirmed 3312 03:27:56.120 --> 03:27:58.399 that the Mayagas was off the coast of Ko Tang, 3313 03:28:00.159 --> 03:28:06.040 which is an island in Cambodian territorial waters which the 3314 03:28:06.120 --> 03:28:10.840 Khmuter Rouge had fortified after the after Prono and Pen fell, 3315 03:28:11.719 --> 03:28:15.040 which it later became clear that they'd done so in 3316 03:28:15.120 --> 03:28:19.159 anticipation of a Vietnamese naval assault, because their big fear 3317 03:28:19.280 --> 03:28:22.840 was that it would be used as a staging ground, 3318 03:28:23.959 --> 03:28:27.200 you know, to assault in mainland presumably as you know, 3319 03:28:27.319 --> 03:28:33.440 a secondary theater to a divert kremue Ruse forces and 3320 03:28:33.559 --> 03:28:39.079 being from you know whatever across border Loca I had 3321 03:28:39.159 --> 03:28:42.000 had been the you know, the the spair plannks as 3322 03:28:42.159 --> 03:28:46.280 were of of the Vietnamese of potential Vietnamese assault I 3323 03:28:46.360 --> 03:28:48.360 can't speak how problem that would have been, because I mean, 3324 03:28:48.399 --> 03:28:52.559 who knows, but it wasn't. It was entirely reasonable to 3325 03:28:52.840 --> 03:28:56.520 you know, anticipate that at the time and with what 3326 03:28:56.680 --> 03:28:59.600 was underway. And I mean ultimately the Vietnamese did. I 3327 03:28:59.680 --> 03:29:01.440 mean that's what the posed the com rouge was a 3328 03:29:01.520 --> 03:29:04.799 Vietnamese attack. So I mean this was not just this 3329 03:29:04.959 --> 03:29:08.680 is not just an alibi of a of the regime, 3330 03:29:09.000 --> 03:29:12.200 whatever else we can say about it and its credibility. 3331 03:29:13.879 --> 03:29:16.840 The absence of combat cable American forces in theater again 3332 03:29:16.959 --> 03:29:22.200 was the big problem. The closest, uh truly comic cable 3333 03:29:22.239 --> 03:29:26.479 element was the second Battalion, ninth Marines, when a training 3334 03:29:26.879 --> 03:29:30.799 who were then engaged in a trainingcise on Okinawa and 3335 03:29:31.760 --> 03:29:34.559 on the night of the thirteenth of May, which was 3336 03:29:34.600 --> 03:29:39.280 the day after the that the seizure of the the 3337 03:29:39.360 --> 03:29:42.920 vessel itself, they were ordered to return a camp and 3338 03:29:42.959 --> 03:29:48.799 prepare for departure by air on May fourteenth. It Uh, 3339 03:29:49.959 --> 03:29:56.399 the problem was this was a heavy I mean, this 3340 03:29:56.559 --> 03:29:59.520 is this, this was not this is this is the 3341 03:29:59.559 --> 03:30:02.000 proverbial operation. Every one needs to go into light. I mean, 3342 03:30:02.120 --> 03:30:04.239 like again, these days we would think of it as 3343 03:30:04.239 --> 03:30:06.159 like a Sealed Team six or like a Delta Forest 3344 03:30:06.200 --> 03:30:11.280 kind of operation, and uh, this is not really what 3345 03:30:11.399 --> 03:30:14.200 people were training for at that time, and there was 3346 03:30:14.200 --> 03:30:16.840 an by nineteen seventy five, there was there was a 3347 03:30:16.920 --> 03:30:21.680 handful of officers with second Italian ninth Marines who died, 3348 03:30:21.879 --> 03:30:25.200 you know, been under fire in Vietnam, but virtually none 3349 03:30:25.200 --> 03:30:30.120 of the enlisted matter Renco's head. You know, the idea taken. 3350 03:30:31.120 --> 03:30:33.040 I mean, however tough these guys were, and I'm sure 3351 03:30:33.040 --> 03:30:37.639 that they were like a hard dudes taking you know, 3352 03:30:37.719 --> 03:30:41.559 taking a marine element that had not been in combat before, 3353 03:30:42.319 --> 03:30:45.280 and you know, kind of breaking their proverbial sherry, you know, 3354 03:30:45.360 --> 03:30:49.479 by having them assault a ship that had been taken hostage. 3355 03:30:49.479 --> 03:30:52.200 And this in a kind of anti counter terrorist operation 3356 03:30:52.360 --> 03:30:56.520 like that seems like a recipe for disaster. Would ultimately 3357 03:30:56.559 --> 03:31:05.879 put the gobache on that planned operation. Was uh a 3358 03:31:05.920 --> 03:31:10.639 guy named General Burns, Yeah, Burns, he was commander with 3359 03:31:10.680 --> 03:31:15.360 the seventh Air Force. He uh wade in and said, look, 3360 03:31:17.879 --> 03:31:21.120 you know, it's very possible that you know, the crew 3361 03:31:21.200 --> 03:31:25.360 has already been you know, taking landside either on Ko 3362 03:31:25.479 --> 03:31:30.559 Tang itself or is being shuttled to the mainland. Regardless, 3363 03:31:30.639 --> 03:31:33.120 He's like you're gonna need more firepower than just you know, 3364 03:31:34.639 --> 03:31:37.559 then then you know, can be uh gonna be brought 3365 03:31:37.559 --> 03:31:43.600 to bear you know by dropping uh, but by dropping 3366 03:31:43.760 --> 03:31:48.959 uh by dropping the Marines, you know, by chopper onto 3367 03:31:49.120 --> 03:31:52.479 uh onto the vessel itself, you know, with you know 3368 03:31:52.600 --> 03:31:55.280 kind of like light covering fire from whatever. These I assume, 3369 03:31:55.360 --> 03:31:58.440 like I assume like Hue. I don't know if Hue 3370 03:31:58.559 --> 03:32:03.280 Cobras were fielded then yet, but yeah, yeah they would 3371 03:32:03.319 --> 03:32:05.319 have been. But I mean point being you know with uh, 3372 03:32:06.079 --> 03:32:12.639 Burns to his credit, was thinking ahead and uh his 3373 03:32:12.840 --> 03:32:19.399 idea was, uh bring to bear air Force gunships and 3374 03:32:19.440 --> 03:32:23.239 shoppers to be able to you know, saturate the island 3375 03:32:23.280 --> 03:32:28.760 of firepower if need be. And the uh you know, 3376 03:32:28.879 --> 03:32:34.760 the the hostage rescue element, he suggested, uh, the fifty 3377 03:32:34.879 --> 03:32:39.280 sixth Security Police Squadron. He is like the Air Force 3378 03:32:39.360 --> 03:32:44.239 guys who like guard like air bases at that at 3379 03:32:44.280 --> 03:32:46.120 that time, that's what they were. Like. These days, the 3380 03:32:46.159 --> 03:32:49.239 Air Force has like a high speed like like spec 3381 03:32:49.319 --> 03:32:52.680 war like element, but in those days they basically had 3382 03:32:52.719 --> 03:32:56.159 these guys were somewhat like more high speed like MPs, 3383 03:32:56.440 --> 03:32:59.600 you know, and again like that's not really that's not 3384 03:32:59.760 --> 03:33:03.360 really you know, the element you want for something like this. 3385 03:33:04.440 --> 03:33:07.639 But uh, his view at least was more kind of 3386 03:33:07.680 --> 03:33:12.760 in line with what was to develop than then than 3387 03:33:12.799 --> 03:33:22.680 that than that which was floated uh previously and in 3388 03:33:22.799 --> 03:33:30.639 this operation was actually implemented it and the Utapo Airbase 3389 03:33:30.719 --> 03:33:33.360 and Thailand, which I believe is still in use. Like 3390 03:33:33.479 --> 03:33:38.440 the idea was that these gunships and these UH and 3391 03:33:38.559 --> 03:33:41.040 these UH air Force MPs you know who are the 3392 03:33:41.079 --> 03:33:45.719 hostage rescue element, They're gonna be shuttled from the Philippines 3393 03:33:46.799 --> 03:33:55.079 to uh Utapo in Thailand to be yah different thing, 3394 03:33:55.120 --> 03:33:57.719 and then from there they were gonna assault Ko Tang 3395 03:33:58.600 --> 03:34:02.479 on the way to Thailand. Uh there was there was 3396 03:34:02.520 --> 03:34:05.520 a chopper crash and like eighteen of their number were killed. 3397 03:34:06.760 --> 03:34:09.840 So as you can see this, uh it was eighteen 3398 03:34:10.000 --> 03:34:14.479 eighteen the security police and five crewmen. So I mean, 3399 03:34:14.520 --> 03:34:16.159 as you can see, there's just getting like more and 3400 03:34:16.239 --> 03:34:18.959 more food barb by the moment. In operational terms. 3401 03:34:20.120 --> 03:34:21.799 It sounds it sounds like trying to go into a 3402 03:34:21.879 --> 03:34:22.879 ram and get the hostages. 3403 03:34:23.559 --> 03:34:27.000 Yeah exactly, And uh, yeah, no that's that You're exactly right. 3404 03:34:27.120 --> 03:34:30.879 And this coupled with desert one and you know, with 3405 03:34:31.000 --> 03:34:36.399 which the aborded Iranian rescue mission and uh, the lack 3406 03:34:36.479 --> 03:34:39.479 of integrated command and control of Grenada. That's really what 3407 03:34:39.639 --> 03:34:43.040 created so COOM, you know, because the need for it 3408 03:34:43.159 --> 03:34:44.680 became recognized. 3409 03:34:45.719 --> 03:34:48.920 Well, there was only one lost in Grenader, right, was 3410 03:34:48.959 --> 03:34:52.079 there one? I think there was only one casualty in 3411 03:34:52.120 --> 03:34:52.760 Grenader right? 3412 03:34:53.399 --> 03:34:55.639 No, there was a number. And what happened was these 3413 03:34:55.719 --> 03:34:59.280 Navy seals who were there was a bunch, there's a few. 3414 03:34:59.360 --> 03:35:01.280 There was like a you know, there's an Army command element, 3415 03:35:01.360 --> 03:35:03.639 a Marine command element, and then there was these seals 3416 03:35:04.799 --> 03:35:08.440 who ended up somehow dropped in the wrong place and 3417 03:35:08.559 --> 03:35:13.040 then they ended up drownings. They weren't retrieved. Yeah, it 3418 03:35:13.079 --> 03:35:14.440 was a whole mess, and like it had to do. 3419 03:35:14.520 --> 03:35:16.440 It was literally totally avoidable when it was like a 3420 03:35:16.479 --> 03:35:17.319 command and control. 3421 03:35:18.280 --> 03:35:20.920 Nineteen dead, nineteen dead, one hundred and fifty wounded. 3422 03:35:21.479 --> 03:35:23.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean Grenada is all. We'll get 3423 03:35:23.600 --> 03:35:25.639 into Grenada in one of the later episodes because it's 3424 03:35:25.719 --> 03:35:29.079 in political terms, Uh it it bored directly on uh 3425 03:35:30.319 --> 03:35:34.120 uh the Sandinist Revolution, and there was there was North 3426 03:35:34.200 --> 03:35:35.920 Koreans on the ground there. I mean, obviously it was 3427 03:35:35.959 --> 03:35:39.000 the Cuban element there's a couple of East Germans like 3428 03:35:39.079 --> 03:35:43.040 it's fascinating and it very much, uh, it very much 3429 03:35:43.120 --> 03:35:45.520 was what the I mean, however, anybody feels about the 3430 03:35:45.559 --> 03:35:49.559 Reagan administration, and you know, some of it's alleged overreach. 3431 03:35:51.280 --> 03:35:54.799 Grenada actually was it was it was being purposed to 3432 03:35:55.000 --> 03:36:00.440 rapidly reinforce Nicaragua and and friendly proxies like the theater. 3433 03:36:00.760 --> 03:36:03.120 You know, that was you know, the the only thing 3434 03:36:03.200 --> 03:36:05.440 to building Grenada was an airstrip for that purpose, and 3435 03:36:05.520 --> 03:36:10.159 that's exactly what they were building. But as it may, 3436 03:36:11.360 --> 03:36:14.760 after this atter, this, after this UH, after this disaster 3437 03:36:14.959 --> 03:36:20.040 with you know in uh at uh the TAPO for 3438 03:36:20.159 --> 03:36:25.399 it can be another National Security Council meeting on UH 3439 03:36:26.079 --> 03:36:33.520 on May fourteenth, the uh A communication like been established 3440 03:36:34.399 --> 03:36:38.879 with the seventh Air Force elements UH that had departed 3441 03:36:38.879 --> 03:36:42.040 from Hawaii and where the circling Ko Tang and in 3442 03:36:42.120 --> 03:36:43.840 these day, in those days, that was a closer you 3443 03:36:43.920 --> 03:36:46.559 get to like real time communications. I mean, that's another 3444 03:36:46.600 --> 03:36:48.719 thing we take for branded today. But obviously then like 3445 03:36:48.840 --> 03:36:52.079 you were, there was quite literally like blindness in theater 3446 03:36:53.319 --> 03:36:55.840 if you were the command element in in the White House, 3447 03:36:56.360 --> 03:36:58.440 you know, trying to direct military operations to the Joint 3448 03:36:58.520 --> 03:37:00.799 Chiefs of Staff and then they in turn, you know, 3449 03:37:00.879 --> 03:37:04.799 any any any data they were getting from the battlespace 3450 03:37:05.079 --> 03:37:08.760 was you know, minutes at least minutes and probably hours 3451 03:37:08.799 --> 03:37:15.079 out of date. The UH these fighters, UH they were 3452 03:37:15.120 --> 03:37:18.959 trying to What they didn't realize was that the crew 3453 03:37:19.040 --> 03:37:21.680 by this time of the Mayagas had been shuttled to 3454 03:37:21.760 --> 03:37:27.879 this fishing boat which was then UH attempting to transport 3455 03:37:27.959 --> 03:37:32.120 them to UH the mainland, this coastal city called Kampong Sum. 3456 03:37:34.440 --> 03:37:38.600 These guys their credit, these pilots who were circling in theater, 3457 03:37:39.399 --> 03:37:42.120 they recognized that that's probably was going on. They requisitive 3458 03:37:42.159 --> 03:37:45.360 permission to UH trying to shoot the rudders off of 3459 03:37:45.440 --> 03:37:48.079 this ship that was conveying them and like assault the 3460 03:37:48.120 --> 03:37:52.440 pet boats that were escorting it. Ford intervened had said that, 3461 03:37:52.879 --> 03:37:55.959 you know, the use of those kinds of munitions would 3462 03:37:56.079 --> 03:37:58.639 be would present too great risks of the crew. So 3463 03:37:58.719 --> 03:38:03.399 they put the gabash on that the UH at at 3464 03:38:03.479 --> 03:38:06.680 the same time, UH the National and Security Council, they 3465 03:38:06.719 --> 03:38:11.040 got word, UH they got word back that the Chinese 3466 03:38:11.079 --> 03:38:14.920 For and Ministry and BREAT Beijing had refused to UH 3467 03:38:15.959 --> 03:38:18.680 pass any kind of formal communication on the Khmer Rouge. 3468 03:38:19.120 --> 03:38:22.040 But Busch said that in his belie but Busch said 3469 03:38:22.079 --> 03:38:24.799 that he could all but guarantee that the Chinese are 3470 03:38:24.799 --> 03:38:28.159 putting pressure on the Khmer Rouge to comply with whatever 3471 03:38:28.239 --> 03:38:31.079 American demands were because like, obviously even if I mean, 3472 03:38:31.159 --> 03:38:33.479 like I said, I've got my own theory on this, 3473 03:38:33.799 --> 03:38:37.559 that this was very much orchestrated by Pey King. But 3474 03:38:37.760 --> 03:38:41.159 whether it was or not, obviously the situation was rapidly, 3475 03:38:41.600 --> 03:38:47.520 you know, spiraling out of control. And uh Busch, uh whatever, Uh, 3476 03:38:48.079 --> 03:38:50.600 whether a view of him charitable or or whether it's 3477 03:38:50.879 --> 03:38:54.879 you know, not particularly so. So Bush was a serious 3478 03:38:54.959 --> 03:38:57.079 guy and he very much understood the Chinese and had 3479 03:38:57.079 --> 03:38:59.040 a rapport with them. And I mean he was a 3480 03:38:59.079 --> 03:39:03.559 career intelligence And if you're relayed that in my belief, uh, 3481 03:39:04.120 --> 03:39:07.040 you know, this has been conveyed and this is what's happening. 3482 03:39:07.159 --> 03:39:11.639 I think, you know, that was I think I think 3483 03:39:12.600 --> 03:39:16.959 I think that was as good as gold. But uh, 3484 03:39:18.440 --> 03:39:21.399 the the acting chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff 3485 03:39:22.200 --> 03:39:24.840 was a guy named uh, it was a guy named 3486 03:39:24.879 --> 03:39:29.840 David Jones. What he presented and this was ultimately followed 3487 03:39:29.920 --> 03:39:36.159 through in operational terms. He presented the arrange in military 3488 03:39:36.200 --> 03:39:39.600 opposite of the National Security Council and he said, you know, 3489 03:39:39.760 --> 03:39:43.280 look like we're not even sure where the Mayagus crew 3490 03:39:43.440 --> 03:39:45.959 is at this point, you know, whether there's shipboard, whether 3491 03:39:46.040 --> 03:39:49.799 they're landside, and if they're landside, where they're actually located. 3492 03:39:50.559 --> 03:39:53.799 And he's like, obviously like they are, you know, rescuing 3493 03:39:53.840 --> 03:39:56.360 them on a harmony to be our priority. But he's like, 3494 03:39:56.600 --> 03:39:58.959 we've basically got to like waste the commuter rouge because 3495 03:39:59.000 --> 03:40:00.959 like we can't just like let the slide. You know, 3496 03:40:01.000 --> 03:40:03.520 He's like, we gotta this is a credibility issue at 3497 03:40:03.520 --> 03:40:07.399 bubb all else, you know, aside. You know, obviously you 3498 03:40:07.479 --> 03:40:09.799 know we're not going to disregard the lives of our people, 3499 03:40:09.959 --> 03:40:12.479 but you know, we've got it. We've got to lay 3500 03:40:12.479 --> 03:40:14.360 as much hurt on the premier ruge as we can. 3501 03:40:15.920 --> 03:40:19.239 And from that point forward that was basically accepted by 3502 03:40:19.280 --> 03:40:27.760 the White House. It came down to three possibilities. Some 3503 03:40:27.959 --> 03:40:31.319 intelligence suggested that they were still on the mayagas. Some 3504 03:40:31.479 --> 03:40:35.040 suggested they were on Kotang Island. Others suggested that they 3505 03:40:35.079 --> 03:40:38.479 were on the fishing boat itself route uh I, bound 3506 03:40:38.559 --> 03:40:42.440 for the mainland and the you know, the coastal city 3507 03:40:42.479 --> 03:40:45.120 of Campung Som, which is what these Air Force pilots 3508 03:40:45.120 --> 03:40:48.120 were laid, which turned out to be true, incidentally, But 3509 03:40:48.840 --> 03:40:52.239 what was ultimately decided was an ancial security council decided 3510 03:40:52.239 --> 03:40:55.719 to do. They decided to deploy the Marines to take 3511 03:40:55.719 --> 03:41:00.239 the Mayagas itself, assault Kotang Island and together the ass 3512 03:41:00.319 --> 03:41:05.120 of Assault and Cambodi itself, particularly it's shipping and uh 3513 03:41:05.920 --> 03:41:08.760 it's uh it's shipping infrastructure, you know, and you know 3514 03:41:08.799 --> 03:41:13.639 all like you know, naval military targets and uh escalating 3515 03:41:13.680 --> 03:41:16.399 the Panolan pen itself, you know, and like any other 3516 03:41:16.719 --> 03:41:20.079 kind of like counter value uh targets of opportunity that 3517 03:41:20.120 --> 03:41:23.879 presented themselves. You know, if if uh if if within 3518 03:41:24.000 --> 03:41:26.360 you know, twenty four or thirty six hours or whatever, 3519 03:41:26.440 --> 03:41:32.239 you know, there wasn't resolution to the crisis. The fishing 3520 03:41:32.319 --> 03:41:36.079 boat on which uh the magus crew actually was and 3521 03:41:36.319 --> 03:41:39.680 it did arrive at Kampung Sam. The Khmun rouse commander 3522 03:41:39.959 --> 03:41:45.000 at Kampung Sam either either he had either been either 3523 03:41:45.079 --> 03:41:49.079 the Chinese had gotten to him, or he just understood 3524 03:41:49.319 --> 03:41:52.920 what was underway. He issued in order to his men, 3525 03:41:53.200 --> 03:41:55.959 like you know, I don't know you know, do not 3526 03:41:56.159 --> 03:41:59.799 harm these hostages, you know, under any circumstances. You know, 3527 03:42:00.120 --> 03:42:03.120 he asked these hostages. You know, he's like, you know, 3528 03:42:03.840 --> 03:42:06.040 I mean, I mean by that point, but established obviously 3529 03:42:06.040 --> 03:42:10.520 it was an American flag ship, you know, and he uh, 3530 03:42:10.959 --> 03:42:13.399 he asked him if the radio equipment was was operable, 3531 03:42:13.600 --> 03:42:15.920 you know, said they get it's He's like, look releasing 3532 03:42:15.959 --> 03:42:17.760 you you know, like, can you call off this assault? 3533 03:42:19.479 --> 03:42:22.680 And uh it was it turned out the radio equipment 3534 03:42:22.760 --> 03:42:26.520 was not operable, but the uh as it uh and 3535 03:42:26.680 --> 03:42:29.200 as it turned out later like one of the one 3536 03:42:29.200 --> 03:42:31.079 of the one of the guys later just closed. He's like, 3537 03:42:33.000 --> 03:42:34.159 he's like, I didn't know if we'll be able to 3538 03:42:34.200 --> 03:42:36.239 reach like any of the aircraft in the air. But 3539 03:42:36.319 --> 03:42:39.319 he's like, by that point, like I wanted He's he's like, 3540 03:42:39.399 --> 03:42:41.120 I wanted to commuter ruders to get their ass kicks. 3541 03:42:41.120 --> 03:42:42.879 So he's like, I, you know, he's like I wouldn't 3542 03:42:42.879 --> 03:42:45.399 have transmitted it anyway, which Franklin was the right call, 3543 03:42:46.959 --> 03:42:51.159 I think, but that but by that point, uh, the 3544 03:42:51.319 --> 03:43:00.159 die was cast. The uh the it was that uh 3545 03:43:01.159 --> 03:43:04.920 the U it was that around just past dawn on 3546 03:43:06.760 --> 03:43:12.760 May sixteenth, Kotang itself was assaulted. But as it as 3547 03:43:12.799 --> 03:43:15.760 it turned out, Intel suggested that there was only about 3548 03:43:15.760 --> 03:43:19.000 twenty or thirty Camire Rouge fighters on the island. It 3549 03:43:19.120 --> 03:43:21.399 turned out that there's over one hundred. And again they 3550 03:43:22.799 --> 03:43:27.000 they they they had a lot of heavy machine guns 3551 03:43:28.440 --> 03:43:31.959 among them and like uh and cruiser like squad weapons. 3552 03:43:32.000 --> 03:43:35.680 Is because you know, like we talked about a moment ago, 3553 03:43:36.120 --> 03:43:38.079 they fortified the island and as a patient of a 3554 03:43:38.200 --> 03:43:43.479 Vietnamese assault which never came. But you know, these uh, 3555 03:43:44.120 --> 03:43:47.639 the Khmer Rouge, whatever you can say about these guys, 3556 03:43:47.719 --> 03:43:53.239 were were incredibly game fighters. This pitched battle ensued between 3557 03:43:53.239 --> 03:44:01.079 the Marines and the camer Rouge. The UH, the the uh. 3558 03:44:01.799 --> 03:44:06.239 The crew of the Mayagas was safely conveyed uh back 3559 03:44:06.399 --> 03:44:09.040 from this fishing boat like back to the Mayagas itself 3560 03:44:09.680 --> 03:44:12.719 and uh and and they were they were they were 3561 03:44:12.760 --> 03:44:19.239 safely conveyed away from the battle space. But uh, when 3562 03:44:19.280 --> 03:44:21.280 it became clear that the crew had been released and 3563 03:44:21.440 --> 03:44:29.760 was safe it uh the Marines were ordered to withdraw 3564 03:44:31.680 --> 03:44:36.239 and they began uh affecting a tacticle withdraw like a 3565 03:44:36.319 --> 03:44:40.440 fighting or tree as it were. But the Marine commander 3566 03:44:40.520 --> 03:44:44.959 on the ground there was two beachheads at the eastern. 3567 03:44:45.280 --> 03:44:52.440 The commander of the easternmost UH operational area, he conveyed, like, look, 3568 03:44:52.879 --> 03:44:55.559 unless we're like wrapped, unless we're rapidly reinforced, like we're 3569 03:44:55.559 --> 03:45:00.479 gonna be overrun. So UH they reinforcem or some instead 3570 03:45:00.479 --> 03:45:03.479 have been called off. Were then directed back to Ko 3571 03:45:03.680 --> 03:45:09.600 Tang to reinforce the Marines on the ground. You know 3572 03:45:09.959 --> 03:45:14.280 this uh in this kind of chaotic withdraw that ensued, 3573 03:45:15.159 --> 03:45:19.159 there was a machine gun team of UH three marines 3574 03:45:19.520 --> 03:45:22.959 that uh in this kind of craggy they in this 3575 03:45:23.079 --> 03:45:26.200 kind of craggy area, like on the beach itself, like 3576 03:45:26.639 --> 03:45:31.200 just outside of the ever kind of shrinking perimeter. You know, 3577 03:45:31.319 --> 03:45:36.559 they'd uh they'd set up a UH an ad hoc 3578 03:45:36.680 --> 03:45:40.799 machine gun nest and they'd been left behind in the 3579 03:45:40.840 --> 03:45:47.440 wake of the withdrawal. And UH one of the one 3580 03:45:47.520 --> 03:45:52.319 of these guys platoon mates had said on board the shopper, like, 3581 03:45:52.760 --> 03:45:55.760 you know, there's there's at least three men on the 3582 03:45:55.799 --> 03:46:03.000 ground there. For some reason, this wasn't this wasn't a 3583 03:46:03.079 --> 03:46:05.600 biden And I realized, like in the middle of a 3584 03:46:05.639 --> 03:46:08.000 hot alz, like in the midst of a firefight. I mean, 3585 03:46:08.040 --> 03:46:12.319 I'm sure, things are confused, but this, uh, as it happened, 3586 03:46:13.760 --> 03:46:17.879 these guys were left behind, managed to radio a passing 3587 03:46:18.639 --> 03:46:24.479 US naval vessel and apparently, uh, some intelligence officers said 3588 03:46:24.879 --> 03:46:30.719 it's probably like a Kremiere Rouge trick, and there like, 3589 03:46:31.000 --> 03:46:32.719 I mean, it seems ridiculous. It seems like something like 3590 03:46:32.840 --> 03:46:35.440 a cordial old movie, like some Premier Ruge saying like Yo, 3591 03:46:35.600 --> 03:46:40.040 g I Joe, you'll send them all. I mean, that's 3592 03:46:40.239 --> 03:46:42.159 I'm not even light of a horrible situation with that. 3593 03:46:44.360 --> 03:46:48.959 It seems to me by that point probably everybody's looking 3594 03:46:49.000 --> 03:46:50.719 to cover their own ass as it became clear that, 3595 03:46:51.000 --> 03:46:53.479 you know, they're like there head probably been men left behind. 3596 03:46:55.559 --> 03:46:58.520 These three guys are left behind. This became this like 3597 03:46:58.600 --> 03:47:00.879 a enduring kind of myth on most And I remember 3598 03:47:01.639 --> 03:47:04.040 before I knew anything about the mayag As, before I'd like, 3599 03:47:04.280 --> 03:47:06.280 I mean, I was always fancy by Vietnam, and I 3600 03:47:06.319 --> 03:47:08.600 mean ever since I could read, I was reading about, 3601 03:47:09.159 --> 03:47:13.200 you know, about the cold warn things. But I knew 3602 03:47:13.200 --> 03:47:15.719 this guy in the early nineties. Uh, he was kind 3603 03:47:15.760 --> 03:47:19.000 of a sad guy. You know, he's kind of like 3604 03:47:19.079 --> 03:47:21.239 the troubled Vietnam veda myth and lore you know, like 3605 03:47:21.319 --> 03:47:23.479 he had a drug problem and stuff, but he he 3606 03:47:23.600 --> 03:47:25.760 never became pretty tights like we worked together, like we 3607 03:47:25.840 --> 03:47:30.760 delivered pizzas together, you know. And he he'd he I 3608 03:47:30.879 --> 03:47:34.040 talked about Vietnam and he was really into the Pow 3609 03:47:34.239 --> 03:47:37.319 Mia movement, you know, and I kind of just looked 3610 03:47:37.360 --> 03:47:39.479 at him, was like a sad guy who was troubled 3611 03:47:39.520 --> 03:47:41.520 by the war and other things. But he kept coming 3612 03:47:41.639 --> 03:47:43.440 back to Ko Tang and saying, you know, they left 3613 03:47:43.520 --> 03:47:46.879 guys behind, you know in Cambodia. You know that means 3614 03:47:46.920 --> 03:47:49.959 they left other guys behind, and like, uh, like, I'm 3615 03:47:50.000 --> 03:47:51.920 not saying he was right about all these things he claimed, 3616 03:47:51.959 --> 03:47:54.239 but he wasn't just like talking shit, you know, like 3617 03:47:54.319 --> 03:47:58.840 and he that's this. As it turns out, the uh, 3618 03:47:59.239 --> 03:48:01.520 these guys were a bannon on Ko Tang. That that 3619 03:48:01.680 --> 03:48:04.200 fed a lot of the speculation that the that the 3620 03:48:04.360 --> 03:48:09.959 kind of Pow movement you know, derived uh their claims from. 3621 03:48:10.200 --> 03:48:14.000 But it came out years later. These three guys and 3622 03:48:14.120 --> 03:48:16.200 there were his kids, I think, like and they were 3623 03:48:16.239 --> 03:48:18.719 like I think they were like eighteen nineteen and twenty one, respectively. 3624 03:48:19.799 --> 03:48:22.879 They were on the island for a week, and uh, 3625 03:48:23.040 --> 03:48:25.920 the Khmer Rous realized that like some of their rights 3626 03:48:25.959 --> 03:48:29.000 stores had gone missing, and that you know, bootprints uh 3627 03:48:29.879 --> 03:48:34.000 that obviously weren't uh you know, camier rous sandals were 3628 03:48:34.079 --> 03:48:36.000 found and the cammree was tracked these guys and they 3629 03:48:36.079 --> 03:48:41.120 found them. They were uh shuttled to the mainland. Uh 3630 03:48:42.040 --> 03:48:44.040 you know, I mean, god knows what they were subjected 3631 03:48:44.079 --> 03:48:48.479 to do by commie us tortures. But after several days, 3632 03:48:48.639 --> 03:48:56.360 uh they were looking to the jailers. Uh they were 3633 03:48:56.440 --> 03:48:57.959 beaten to death with the butt end of a B 3634 03:48:58.120 --> 03:49:01.319 forty rocket launcher. I mean, I can't even imagine that 3635 03:49:01.440 --> 03:49:06.000 man like being being uh being being abandoned uh by 3636 03:49:06.200 --> 03:49:09.440 uh by your own forces and then falling into the 3637 03:49:09.520 --> 03:49:11.600 hands of the caremure rouge like literally on this like 3638 03:49:12.239 --> 03:49:15.200 god forsaken island. I mean, that's that's beyond that. A 3639 03:49:15.239 --> 03:49:17.280 lot of stuff frightens me, like at my age and 3640 03:49:17.319 --> 03:49:20.760 frankly had some kind of awful experiences, but that that, 3641 03:49:21.799 --> 03:49:25.120 I mean, I find that there's like horrifying even even 3642 03:49:25.159 --> 03:49:26.879 to think about, you know, and their kids. 3643 03:49:27.040 --> 03:49:29.079 But they should their kids, they should be home in 3644 03:49:29.159 --> 03:49:31.040 the driveway working on a car they just bought. 3645 03:49:31.280 --> 03:49:34.040 Yeah, yeah, man. And it's like, of all people of 3646 03:49:34.680 --> 03:49:36.799 being captured by the Communer Ruge and one most horrifying 3647 03:49:36.840 --> 03:49:38.399 thing I can think of, because like it's not just 3648 03:49:38.840 --> 03:49:40.920 like the Commune Rouge really were animals, Like it's not. 3649 03:49:41.799 --> 03:49:44.799 I mean like it's that's like, yeah, it's not, it's 3650 03:49:44.840 --> 03:49:47.360 not something just like bullshit propaganda or something like it. 3651 03:49:49.120 --> 03:49:50.760 I mean, there's a lot of cases where you know, 3652 03:49:50.879 --> 03:49:54.120 if if you're if you surrender, if you're captured at war, 3653 03:49:54.280 --> 03:49:57.120 I mean you're you're dealing with that ponent, you're dealing 3654 03:49:57.120 --> 03:49:58.600 with an opt for that are just guys like you, 3655 03:49:58.799 --> 03:50:00.879 like in the case of the Communit Rouge, like these 3656 03:50:00.959 --> 03:50:03.200 these guys were fucking barbarians. 3657 03:50:03.280 --> 03:50:08.319 But the uh yeah, they they seem like the the 3658 03:50:08.479 --> 03:50:12.079 descendants of the the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. 3659 03:50:13.000 --> 03:50:16.440 Yeah they yeah. And there's just there's like horrible stuff 3660 03:50:16.520 --> 03:50:19.280 like the there actually were like documents and says like 3661 03:50:19.360 --> 03:50:22.399 cannibalism just like terrorized people and stuff, and like they 3662 03:50:23.200 --> 03:50:25.239 you know, they it's it's one of the few wintances 3663 03:50:25.280 --> 03:50:27.360 again we're kind of the truth is the truth is 3664 03:50:27.399 --> 03:50:29.319 worse than a lot of the propaganda that came out, 3665 03:50:29.440 --> 03:50:34.200 but it but it's also too like I think I 3666 03:50:34.280 --> 03:50:36.479 think a lot of this was suppressed, uh for the 3667 03:50:36.520 --> 03:50:39.159 reasons I said. It was like this, it was this bizarre, 3668 03:50:39.360 --> 03:50:45.520 like messy political and diplomatic situation relating to the you know, 3669 03:50:46.000 --> 03:50:50.959 uh the intrigues incident of the son of Soviets split. Uh. 3670 03:50:51.760 --> 03:50:53.959 You know, a lot of the uh, the ongoing hangover 3671 03:50:54.040 --> 03:50:57.520 as it were, from the Vietnam conflict. And you know, 3672 03:50:57.680 --> 03:50:59.559 like I said, just even the way it's treated as bizarre, 3673 03:50:59.639 --> 03:51:01.600 that gets in the fact like this was just uh, 3674 03:51:02.879 --> 03:51:04.959 this was just uh, you know, it's just kind of 3675 03:51:05.040 --> 03:51:07.920 like as an afterthought, like slapped on to the Vietnam 3676 03:51:07.959 --> 03:51:10.879 War Memorial as all. And this was you know that 3677 03:51:11.000 --> 03:51:13.120 this happened sort of in theater and sort of you know, 3678 03:51:13.239 --> 03:51:17.000 within the same decades, So you know, why not just uh, 3679 03:51:17.920 --> 03:51:19.239 you know, why why not just treat it as part 3680 03:51:19.280 --> 03:51:21.239 of like the same uh, part of the same kind 3681 03:51:21.280 --> 03:51:26.120 of like nucleus of uh of of conflict events. But 3682 03:51:26.239 --> 03:51:33.079 it's yeah, I that's the uh, that's the that's that's 3683 03:51:33.120 --> 03:51:35.239 the story of Ko tank Man and that's the uh 3684 03:51:36.200 --> 03:51:39.040 and that's the time. That's the uh. I believe, and 3685 03:51:39.079 --> 03:51:41.399 I've written about this in my fiction, Like I believe 3686 03:51:41.479 --> 03:51:44.799 that uh, I believe the US engage. I believe US 3687 03:51:44.840 --> 03:51:48.040 forces engaged the Commune Rouge like fairly regularly. I don't 3688 03:51:48.040 --> 03:51:49.920 see how they could not have. Like they were you know, 3689 03:51:49.959 --> 03:51:55.200 they were running around Cambodia for years prior to nineteen 3690 03:51:55.280 --> 03:51:58.760 seventy and then in the aftermath, you know, even uh, 3691 03:51:59.719 --> 03:52:03.200 even when even when the US and China like came 3692 03:52:03.280 --> 03:52:06.840 to terms and uh, the US began cultivating the camer 3693 03:52:06.959 --> 03:52:12.360 Rouge against uh, you know, the pro Vietnamese element. There's 3694 03:52:12.399 --> 03:52:15.440 no way that there's no way that American soldiers did 3695 03:52:15.520 --> 03:52:18.520 not engage the Khmer Rouge in a hostile action in theater. 3696 03:52:18.680 --> 03:52:21.319 But this is the only time it happened above board. 3697 03:52:21.360 --> 03:52:23.159 I mean, this was like a real firefight, you know. 3698 03:52:23.280 --> 03:52:28.280 And that's you know, like I said it, uh I. 3699 03:52:29.239 --> 03:52:32.040 I I try and raise the people because I think 3700 03:52:32.159 --> 03:52:34.719 as a historical writer, I think it's important, you know, 3701 03:52:34.879 --> 03:52:37.200 out of the memory of people like these guys who 3702 03:52:37.280 --> 03:52:41.920 were there. But it's also it shows you how it 3703 03:52:42.000 --> 03:52:46.319 shows you how strange the Cold War got really after 3704 03:52:46.479 --> 03:52:50.360 sixty nine to seventies seventy one, when it became really 3705 03:52:50.440 --> 03:52:54.280 like a three way kind of contest with the United States, 3706 03:52:54.399 --> 03:52:57.399 kind of like nominally allied with China in strategic terms, 3707 03:52:58.079 --> 03:53:01.159 you know, in pursuing the kind of interdependence the results 3708 03:53:01.239 --> 03:53:03.079 of which you know, we we kind of see today 3709 03:53:05.200 --> 03:53:09.360 in the global structure. But it's it was far from, uh, 3710 03:53:09.559 --> 03:53:11.559 it was far from some kind of like clean alliance 3711 03:53:12.799 --> 03:53:16.920 and uh, you know, the the way what the Chinese 3712 03:53:17.000 --> 03:53:19.559 view is kind of sound policy in terms of how 3713 03:53:19.600 --> 03:53:22.840 to intrigue against others is incredibly weird. You know, like 3714 03:53:22.959 --> 03:53:28.680 and I'm telling you, like creating this incident for the 3715 03:53:28.719 --> 03:53:31.959 sake of trying to exploit uh, you know, the the 3716 03:53:32.319 --> 03:53:36.239 ensuing chaos for some kind of political and diplomatic cachet 3717 03:53:36.760 --> 03:53:39.559 that might seem crazy like the Western mind, that's exactly 3718 03:53:39.600 --> 03:53:43.360 the way the Chinese think. If you read about the 3719 03:53:43.760 --> 03:53:48.360 the pointless border war that Mau provoked with with Moscow 3720 03:53:50.079 --> 03:53:55.159 mal basically uh risked and nuclear war with the Soviet Union, 3721 03:53:55.559 --> 03:54:00.479 said he could go around uh humiligating version ev you know, 3722 03:54:00.600 --> 03:54:03.399 for a few weeks and acting like, uh, he'd scored 3723 03:54:03.479 --> 03:54:07.840 some kind of victory so that domestically, like you know, 3724 03:54:07.879 --> 03:54:10.799 he could shore up his kind of fledging personality called credibility, 3725 03:54:11.239 --> 03:54:15.200 and like, no, like even a totally unhanged Western uh, 3726 03:54:17.520 --> 03:54:19.959 you know, tyrant like wouldn't think that way or wouldn't 3727 03:54:20.000 --> 03:54:23.239 do that. But that's that's the kind of stuff characteristic 3728 03:54:23.280 --> 03:54:26.600 of the regime and from I mean in the lifetime 3729 03:54:26.639 --> 03:54:29.040 of people like me and yourself. I mean, yeah, the 3730 03:54:29.600 --> 03:54:32.239 the kinds of chaos of of mau when in the 3731 03:54:32.360 --> 03:54:36.440 aftermath is something we didn't experience firsthand. But even uh, 3732 03:54:36.840 --> 03:54:38.840 even even Dang was kind of credited as like this 3733 03:54:39.399 --> 03:54:42.920 great reformer or and this kind of moderating influence. I mean, 3734 03:54:43.159 --> 03:54:47.280 the stuff that he uh would orchestrate in order to 3735 03:54:49.879 --> 03:54:53.760 in order to UH advantage himself or advantage you know, 3736 03:54:53.840 --> 03:54:56.360 pet King in his eyes uh visa VII the West. 3737 03:54:56.399 --> 03:55:01.399 It doesn't it doesn't make any sense. So that was 3738 03:55:01.479 --> 03:55:06.879 kinna last tragic chapter in the history of UH. What 3739 03:55:07.079 --> 03:55:09.920 wasn't oil China? There's a I mean, there was, there 3740 03:55:09.959 --> 03:55:11.680 was the Chinese, there was the there was the Sino 3741 03:55:11.799 --> 03:55:16.040 Vietnamese border War in seventy nine, and there was again too, 3742 03:55:16.120 --> 03:55:20.600 there was the there's the occupation of Cambodia. You know, 3743 03:55:22.079 --> 03:55:26.120 from seventy nine until until the wall came down. 3744 03:55:27.239 --> 03:55:30.479 China, Chinese and Vietnamese forces fired on each other like 3745 03:55:30.559 --> 03:55:31.280 four years ago. 3746 03:55:31.959 --> 03:55:34.000 Yeah, yeah, no, and that's why one of the really 3747 03:55:34.040 --> 03:55:37.479 inzing things, you know, Obama was one of the last 3748 03:55:37.520 --> 03:55:40.879 things he did in office was a he he lifted 3749 03:55:40.920 --> 03:55:46.079 any remaining restrictions on a military tech transfers to Vietnam. 3750 03:55:47.479 --> 03:55:51.799 Like the the people in the Pentagon aren't conceptually illiterate, 3751 03:55:51.920 --> 03:55:55.000 and there's very few of them who aren't. Uh they're 3752 03:55:55.040 --> 03:56:00.239 they're like literally fucking morons. But the they they realized 3753 03:56:00.280 --> 03:56:02.959 that Vietnam's like an essential hedge against the People's Republic, 3754 03:56:03.000 --> 03:56:06.600 and it is, and Vietnam has got a real comic capability. 3755 03:56:06.639 --> 03:56:09.440 I mean, there are hard people, they've got a real military, 3756 03:56:09.520 --> 03:56:12.680 and Vietnam's comparatively huge country. It's got like sixty million people, 3757 03:56:13.200 --> 03:56:14.760 you know, like people think it's now that people think 3758 03:56:14.799 --> 03:56:17.559 it's like like Americans, they think all these countries like 3759 03:56:17.600 --> 03:56:20.520 the size of Albania or something like a Vietnam's and 3760 03:56:20.559 --> 03:56:24.559 a as a as a geotragic hedge. Yeah, Vietnam is 3761 03:56:24.600 --> 03:56:29.239 incredibly important and uh an alliance that would make sense. 3762 03:56:30.920 --> 03:56:33.200 And now that leave some of the pressure of America 3763 03:56:33.319 --> 03:56:36.159 having to you know, kind of play between Tokyo and Seoul, 3764 03:56:36.719 --> 03:56:41.840 you know, which is increasingly you know, causing consternation the 3765 03:56:42.399 --> 03:56:45.440 in in in relationship with both countries as well as 3766 03:56:45.479 --> 03:56:49.159 their relationship to China. Like what would be intelligent would 3767 03:56:49.200 --> 03:56:54.360 be to do the cultivate UH countries like Vietnam and 3768 03:56:54.479 --> 03:56:57.879 some kind of like American version of of of what 3769 03:56:57.959 --> 03:56:59.920 the Russians are trying to college with the Shanghai Qui 3770 03:57:00.000 --> 03:57:04.319 Operation Organization. Like like, not only is NATO like destabilizing 3771 03:57:04.360 --> 03:57:06.600 and pointless, but it also says not how you structure 3772 03:57:06.639 --> 03:57:09.879 military alliances in the twenty fourth century, it's like structurally 3773 03:57:09.959 --> 03:57:15.239 obsolescent as well as as well as politically anachronistic. That's 3774 03:57:15.280 --> 03:57:17.840 gonna subject another show, but I hope I didn't. I 3775 03:57:18.000 --> 03:57:19.920 didn't like bore people with just kind of like relaying 3776 03:57:19.959 --> 03:57:24.760 the Battle of Ko Tang, like I said, I yeah, yeah, 3777 03:57:24.920 --> 03:57:26.879 and I next time what I want to get into, 3778 03:57:27.280 --> 03:57:29.399 I want to get in to the President Carter's modernization 3779 03:57:29.559 --> 03:57:34.479 of the command and control aspect of america strategic nuclear 3780 03:57:34.559 --> 03:57:41.639 forces and how you know, the advent of AI as 3781 03:57:41.719 --> 03:57:45.719 well as UH. You know, the the onset of strategic parody. 3782 03:57:46.239 --> 03:57:48.639 We're in the window of decision making, you know, was 3783 03:57:48.680 --> 03:57:50.959 reduced in some cases, you know, to five to eight 3784 03:57:51.079 --> 03:57:54.520 minutes or something, and it had just been accepted for 3785 03:57:54.639 --> 03:57:57.879 a time that the president would die immediately and have 3786 03:57:57.920 --> 03:58:00.040 been a nuclear war. It's a strategic air command and 3787 03:58:00.479 --> 03:58:03.040 would be acting as the Article two executive. I mean 3788 03:58:03.079 --> 03:58:06.920 that's parently and constitutional number one number two. It's just like, ethically, 3789 03:58:07.079 --> 03:58:09.520 that's not right. You don't like the United States Air 3790 03:58:09.639 --> 03:58:13.280 Force and you know, uh, strategic air commands that then existed, 3791 03:58:13.360 --> 03:58:15.920 they don't. They don't get to decide you know, uh, 3792 03:58:16.399 --> 03:58:18.079 like who lives and who dies. They don't. They don't 3793 03:58:18.079 --> 03:58:22.280 get to decide, you know, when and how we wage war. 3794 03:58:22.920 --> 03:58:26.040 But also it raised a fascinating issue. I'm what I 3795 03:58:26.079 --> 03:58:29.799 was telling people too, Like guys like Harlan Ellison, you know, 3796 03:58:29.840 --> 03:58:31.840 when they were you know, Harlan Ellison actually came over 3797 03:58:31.840 --> 03:58:34.120 with the idea for sky in It and like James 3798 03:58:34.200 --> 03:58:36.520 Cameron like ripped him off, like Cameron rips off everything. 3799 03:58:36.600 --> 03:58:40.319 But this wasn't just like some kind of horror movie trope. 3800 03:58:42.200 --> 03:58:47.399 There the removal of human decision makers from strategic nuclear 3801 03:58:47.639 --> 03:58:50.680 war fighting. That was a real thing, and by the 3802 03:58:51.040 --> 03:58:58.479 nineteen eighties it was becoming and uh, when there's when 3803 03:58:59.600 --> 03:59:02.319 with a lot launching even on warning when when when 3804 03:59:02.360 --> 03:59:06.920 the window of decision making temporarily speaking, becomes so narrow 3805 03:59:07.360 --> 03:59:11.639 that even launching on warning is too late, Like what 3806 03:59:11.719 --> 03:59:14.280 do you do? It's like, well, you know, you defend 3807 03:59:14.319 --> 03:59:18.479 yourself by finding ways to code variables that indicate, you know, 3808 03:59:20.280 --> 03:59:23.360 that that indicate imminent assault like before though you know, 3809 03:59:23.440 --> 03:59:27.239 before there's even like conventional like launch indicators and mobilization indicators. 3810 03:59:27.600 --> 03:59:29.520 But then it's like okay, but then like when do 3811 03:59:29.559 --> 03:59:32.719 you attack when there's like a ten percent probability of assault, 3812 03:59:32.719 --> 03:59:35.000 when there's like a fifty anything over fifty percent, then 3813 03:59:35.040 --> 03:59:37.840 when there's ninety percent, when there's anything over one percent, 3814 03:59:38.440 --> 03:59:42.760 you know, and it's some not you know that that's 3815 03:59:42.760 --> 03:59:45.840 a kind of like machine thinking that becomes inevitable, you know, 3816 03:59:45.920 --> 03:59:49.440 when technology it becomes totally just positive as outcomes, but 3817 03:59:49.600 --> 03:59:52.159 also uh, the amount of data that has to be 3818 03:59:52.319 --> 03:59:58.040 managed in a strategic landscape like that, like humans can't 3819 03:59:58.159 --> 04:00:00.879 do it, you know. So we were looking at a 3820 04:00:00.920 --> 04:00:04.600 situation where the Cold War endured, like machines would have 3821 04:00:04.760 --> 04:00:08.200 been the decision maker, you know, and uh, you'd have 3822 04:00:08.319 --> 04:00:13.319 to hope that you know, the the coded uh indicators 3823 04:00:13.879 --> 04:00:16.600 you know, were correct or at least I couldn't be spoofed, 3824 04:00:17.200 --> 04:00:20.799 you know, by by man or by fate. But that yeah, 3825 04:00:20.920 --> 04:00:23.239 that's I I'll save it for the when we get 3826 04:00:23.239 --> 04:00:27.040 into that. But that's that's that's kind of the that's 3827 04:00:27.120 --> 04:00:29.799 kind of the key feature of the Carter presidency, I think, 3828 04:00:29.840 --> 04:00:31.840 and I mean I I'm a lot friendly to Carter 3829 04:00:34.000 --> 04:00:37.079 and uh, you know the way I I view the 3830 04:00:37.360 --> 04:00:40.799 his epoch and most people. So well, we'll get into 3831 04:00:40.879 --> 04:00:44.200 some of these strategic nuclear command and control issues, some 3832 04:00:44.280 --> 04:00:47.079 of these wartech issues, and and and we'll deal with 3833 04:00:47.200 --> 04:00:50.079 like Carter the man himself in the next episode. And 3834 04:00:50.239 --> 04:00:53.120 like again, I really really appreciate people supporting the series, 3835 04:00:53.200 --> 04:00:55.920 and I wanted to give Ko Tang it's due and 3836 04:00:56.040 --> 04:00:57.760 the you know, the men were there. It's due because, 3837 04:00:57.840 --> 04:00:59.959 like I said, it's it's something nobody really talks about. 3838 04:01:00.680 --> 04:01:02.639 And that's part of the reason for these series, so 3839 04:01:02.680 --> 04:01:05.000 that we can deep dive into stuff that people don't 3840 04:01:05.040 --> 04:01:08.600 really talk about in more mainstream sources. So that's all 3841 04:01:08.639 --> 04:01:10.000 I got. And thank you, Pet. 3842 04:01:10.520 --> 04:01:12.639 Yeah, of course I'm too quick plugs. 3843 04:01:13.399 --> 04:01:16.840 Yeah, you can find me on Twitter that probably that 3844 04:01:16.879 --> 04:01:18.799 will probably change in the next few weeks. 3845 04:01:18.559 --> 04:01:18.639 But. 3846 04:01:20.399 --> 04:01:22.760 I'm on there. Again. You can find me at Real 3847 04:01:23.159 --> 04:01:28.719 Underscore Thomas seven seven seven. I'm recording from my YouTube 3848 04:01:28.799 --> 04:01:33.200 channel on Friday with my dear friend Carrie, and I'm 3849 04:01:33.200 --> 04:01:36.440 gonna upload that next week sometime, so I'll make sure. 3850 04:01:36.479 --> 04:01:40.520 I'll hype that everybody knows my YouTube channel. There's nothing 3851 04:01:40.559 --> 04:01:45.120 near yet, but there will be is Thomas TV. You 3852 04:01:45.200 --> 04:01:46.959 can find me on substack, which is kind of my 3853 04:01:47.000 --> 04:01:51.600 permanent home. It's a real Thomas seven seven seven dot 3854 04:01:51.639 --> 04:01:55.440 subseac dot com. I'm gonna relaunch a Telegram channel because 3855 04:01:55.799 --> 04:01:58.959 everybody who supports us, they really like Telegram. I mean, 3856 04:01:59.000 --> 04:02:02.600 Telegram really treats me badly, so I wasn't real keen 3857 04:02:02.680 --> 04:02:06.200 to doing business with them again. But i will launch 3858 04:02:06.280 --> 04:02:09.719 a channel for the sake of the subscribers and our friends. 3859 04:02:10.239 --> 04:02:12.559 But I'm going to do that sometime this weekend and 3860 04:02:12.879 --> 04:02:15.719 i'll plug that when we're back on there. But right 3861 04:02:15.799 --> 04:02:17.719 now I just have like a private channel, but I'm 3862 04:02:17.719 --> 04:02:19.399 going to relaunch a public one. That's all I got. 3863 04:02:20.079 --> 04:02:24.639 Awesome, man, So the next time, thank you, Thomas. Today 3864 04:02:25.760 --> 04:02:28.920 happens to be the fiftieth anniversary of the signing of 3865 04:02:29.040 --> 04:02:33.840 the Paris Piece Accords, which ended the Vietnam War, and 3866 04:02:34.040 --> 04:02:36.719 we couldn't think of anyone better to have on to 3867 04:02:36.920 --> 04:02:41.200 talk about that than somebody that is gracing me with 3868 04:02:41.319 --> 04:02:45.079 his presence on my podcast and going through a Cold 3869 04:02:45.159 --> 04:02:46.319 War series right now. 3870 04:02:46.840 --> 04:02:51.360 So how do I'm doing? Well? Thank you? Well? I 3871 04:02:51.600 --> 04:02:53.000 I appreciate you inviting me. 3872 04:02:54.520 --> 04:02:56.200 Here's the first question I want to ask, because I 3873 04:02:56.360 --> 04:02:58.559 was I was writing questions on the last episode we 3874 04:02:59.840 --> 04:03:02.520 did and I realized the episodes were for the end. 3875 04:03:02.760 --> 04:03:08.479 So did public opinion help in ending the war? 3876 04:03:10.040 --> 04:03:12.959 I mean yeah, because the internal situation in any state, 3877 04:03:13.120 --> 04:03:17.000 any modern state, I mean, whether you're talking about a 3878 04:03:17.120 --> 04:03:19.879 nominal you know, multi party democracy, I mean in the 3879 04:03:20.000 --> 04:03:24.280 terms that that signifiers utilizing the Cold War, or whether 3880 04:03:24.280 --> 04:03:26.719 you're talking about you know, the Communi states of the 3881 04:03:26.760 --> 04:03:30.719 Eastern Bloc, in a in a state in the general 3882 04:03:30.760 --> 04:03:38.319 mobilization especially, but in any in any any policy, ongoing policy, initiative, 3883 04:03:39.600 --> 04:03:44.280 or structure that directly affects the population, like public opinion 3884 04:03:44.799 --> 04:03:48.719 is impactful on that policy, you know. Not despite the 3885 04:03:48.799 --> 04:03:51.920 kind of mythology of democratic peace theory or whatever, there 3886 04:03:52.159 --> 04:03:54.879 are not states that exist that are just totally in 3887 04:03:54.920 --> 04:03:58.280 odds to the body politic, Not any government in existence, 3888 04:03:58.559 --> 04:04:00.600 nor has there been in the modern era that just 3889 04:04:00.680 --> 04:04:03.920 has absolutely no mandate. You know, it's it's completely immune 3890 04:04:03.959 --> 04:04:07.360 to public opinion. That's not nothing to work. But what 3891 04:04:07.479 --> 04:04:09.319 I was saying a moment ago, and I'm going somehow 3892 04:04:09.360 --> 04:04:12.360 with this is not just like a old guy tangent. 3893 04:04:13.399 --> 04:04:16.079 I'm listening to Michael Savage and he's got Colonel McGregor on. 3894 04:04:16.200 --> 04:04:17.799 I know that people don't. I know some people are 3895 04:04:17.840 --> 04:04:20.959 just like doing McGregor either. That's not the point. Savage 3896 04:04:21.000 --> 04:04:24.840 kept on talking about the Russians kind of foibles in 3897 04:04:24.959 --> 04:04:28.120 Ukraine and saying this is like Vietnam when you know 3898 04:04:28.399 --> 04:04:31.559 the Pegon just wouldn't really fight the war, and McGregor 3899 04:04:31.719 --> 04:04:36.040 was credit corrected Savage. McGregor's like, look, man, like Vietnam 3900 04:04:36.120 --> 04:04:38.600 is a fucking scalpunt. We killed the amount of people 3901 04:04:38.639 --> 04:04:41.600 in Vietnam. It was not just like pussy footing around 3902 04:04:41.799 --> 04:04:44.079 like hey, we want to be you know, we gotta 3903 04:04:44.239 --> 04:04:46.760 gotta playtate world opinion. We we don't want to like 3904 04:04:46.840 --> 04:04:49.399 killing Vietnammese. It was I mean, part of my language. 3905 04:04:49.440 --> 04:04:52.920 It was a fucking gook scalp punt. Okay, but you 3906 04:04:52.959 --> 04:04:55.120 don't win wars just by going out and killing as 3907 04:04:55.159 --> 04:04:58.000 many people as possible. You don't win wars by you know, 3908 04:04:58.120 --> 04:05:04.799 manufacturing dead people. If you did, I think throughout ninety 3909 04:05:04.840 --> 04:05:07.200 forty two that Wehrmacht hit something like a fifteen to 3910 04:05:07.280 --> 04:05:10.319 one burn rate in like major engagement with the Red Army. Okay, 3911 04:05:10.360 --> 04:05:13.399 I mean is did does the Greater German Reich it 3912 04:05:13.399 --> 04:05:15.520 exist today? Didn't win the wars? It killed a whole 3913 04:05:15.520 --> 04:05:20.000 lot of people in Russia. No, But the issue with 3914 04:05:20.040 --> 04:05:23.879 public opinion was that it wasn't so much like the 3915 04:05:24.159 --> 04:05:26.479 court history is two things. It's what Michael Samadge said. 3916 04:05:26.520 --> 04:05:29.479 It's that, oh, America wasn't really fighting the Vietnam War, 3917 04:05:30.120 --> 04:05:32.239 you know, or was doing brutal things. But you know 3918 04:05:32.319 --> 04:05:35.000 these things were you know, not the war was there 3919 04:05:35.040 --> 04:05:38.440 wasn't a general mobilization in place, and you know, America 3920 04:05:38.520 --> 04:05:41.239 wasn't really applying force the way it should. That's part 3921 04:05:41.239 --> 04:05:43.719 of the narrative. The other part is, well, the Vietnam 3922 04:05:43.760 --> 04:05:46.120 War was wrong, so all these people rose up and 3923 04:05:46.239 --> 04:05:48.360 just forced you know, evil mister Nixon to stop what 3924 04:05:48.440 --> 04:05:52.920 he was doing. Like nothing like that happened. And you know, 3925 04:05:53.399 --> 04:05:57.600 seventy percent of combat infantrymen and non were guys who enlisted, 3926 04:05:58.399 --> 04:06:02.040 you know, and the remaining thirty percent and probably you know, uh, 3927 04:06:03.239 --> 04:06:04.879 there there was some truth of the fact that there 3928 04:06:05.000 --> 04:06:07.639 was like a poverty draft, you know, when when the 3929 04:06:07.719 --> 04:06:11.360 standards are kind of lessened on on uh you know, 3930 04:06:11.440 --> 04:06:14.760 who who would be you know, considered. I can't remember 3931 04:06:14.799 --> 04:06:17.920 the classification scheme was, but I mean there was some 3932 04:06:18.040 --> 04:06:20.000 truth to that. But this idea that there was either 3933 04:06:20.079 --> 04:06:22.920 this draft revolt or America just became like a country 3934 04:06:22.920 --> 04:06:25.719 of peace micks and and that ended the war. But 3935 04:06:25.879 --> 04:06:28.920 what it did do I mean Johnson was in fact 3936 04:06:29.040 --> 04:06:31.760 lying to the American people and what he was saying 3937 04:06:31.879 --> 04:06:33.440 was not making any sense, and he was getting on 3938 04:06:33.559 --> 04:06:36.680 TV directly concert thing mc namara on top of that, 3939 04:06:38.159 --> 04:06:42.040 unlike uh, you know, the New Dealers War, where Roosevelt 3940 04:06:42.040 --> 04:06:44.360 would literally have you arrested if you were a media 3941 04:06:44.440 --> 04:06:48.799 guy who criticized him his policy or you engage in fetism, 3942 04:06:49.079 --> 04:06:51.360 which constantly was everything from saying maybe the war is 3943 04:06:51.399 --> 04:06:54.200 not a great idea to reporting on you know, America 3944 04:06:54.280 --> 04:06:56.799 actually like losing in the field. I mean that this 3945 04:06:56.959 --> 04:07:00.000 I'm not meaning this up like this is it compared 3946 04:07:00.040 --> 04:07:04.719 during the comparing the the view of UH or the 3947 04:07:04.760 --> 04:07:09.479 orientation of the executive branch. You know, in ninety one 3948 04:07:09.520 --> 04:07:12.520 to forty five and from ninety six about to seventy three, 3949 04:07:12.639 --> 04:07:14.799 it's like night and day. You know, like if you 3950 04:07:14.840 --> 04:07:19.600 think Roosevelt when it's tolerated, you know, Amby Hoffman, UH 3951 04:07:20.440 --> 04:07:23.159 or some or or some counterparty like w Pelly, you know, 3952 04:07:23.239 --> 04:07:27.360 holding one hundred thousand PAN protests waving National Socialist flags 3953 04:07:27.399 --> 04:07:30.319 in Washington, Like you're dead fucking wrong, Like why this 3954 04:07:30.520 --> 04:07:33.440 was allowed? And like why this kind of nonsense? You know, 3955 04:07:33.760 --> 04:07:36.719 why why why cronkite was allowed to be embedded at 3956 04:07:36.799 --> 04:07:43.040 I Corps and UH at long been when UH, you 3957 04:07:43.120 --> 04:07:46.040 know NLF like sappers were assaulting it. I mean that's 3958 04:07:46.040 --> 04:07:49.879 a whole other issue. But people didn't realize something was wrong. 3959 04:07:52.120 --> 04:07:55.440 There was major attrition in Vietnam, like young Americans were 3960 04:07:55.520 --> 04:07:58.799 dying in large numbers, and it was it was clear 3961 04:07:58.879 --> 04:08:02.159 that it was clear that John's was lying. Okay, Nixon, 3962 04:08:02.280 --> 04:08:05.799 who swept the country as we've talked about and Creighton 3963 04:08:05.840 --> 04:08:11.159 Abrams to replace Westmorland. Nixon was in fact winning the war, 3964 04:08:11.520 --> 04:08:16.200 I believe in military terms, I mean the political side 3965 04:08:16.239 --> 04:08:18.319 of it was totally different well in country as well 3966 04:08:18.399 --> 04:08:21.479 as domestically, and as regards the internal situation in the 3967 04:08:21.600 --> 04:08:25.360 United States. Nixon did do some foolish things. However, like 3968 04:08:25.440 --> 04:08:27.719 we talked about in our last episode, you know how 3969 04:08:27.959 --> 04:08:31.879 Kissinger and Nixon they they kind of weighed his personal 3970 04:08:31.959 --> 04:08:35.120 war in Melvin Laired, the Secretary of Defense, and that's 3971 04:08:35.120 --> 04:08:37.120 not what you do if you're the president. And then 3972 04:08:37.159 --> 04:08:40.000 they went it was publicly layered of like leaking the 3973 04:08:40.360 --> 04:08:43.239 secret bombing of Cambodia looked like, first of ball, why 3974 04:08:43.239 --> 04:08:46.520 are you admitting to that? Because that's terrible. Pr Secondly, 3975 04:08:46.680 --> 04:08:48.920 like why you like having this knockdown, drag up flight 3976 04:08:49.079 --> 04:08:52.360 in public with Melvin Laired, Like how does that look? Okay? 3977 04:08:52.520 --> 04:08:56.280 So even people were enthusiastic about, you know, kind of 3978 04:08:56.360 --> 04:09:01.319 the policy shift of Nixon create Abrams and all of that, 3979 04:09:01.600 --> 04:09:04.479 They're like, okay, why why are all these conspiratorial intrigues happening? 3980 04:09:04.559 --> 04:09:09.319 What exactly is going on? You know? And then the 3981 04:09:09.479 --> 04:09:13.079 media really you know, the I'm sorry to feel like 3982 04:09:13.159 --> 04:09:15.719 if I'm if this seems scatter shop, but I'm trying 3983 04:09:15.760 --> 04:09:19.479 to present a linear narrative the best I can. You know, 3984 04:09:19.559 --> 04:09:21.239 the Kent State maybe a lot of people know this. 3985 04:09:21.639 --> 04:09:24.239 I don't think they do though. You know, the Kent 3986 04:09:24.360 --> 04:09:28.280 State shooting of the students the National Guard, that pro 3987 04:09:28.479 --> 04:09:31.760 that was a protest of the assault on Cambodia. Okay, 3988 04:09:32.120 --> 04:09:34.600 you know late in the war in nineteen seventy there 3989 04:09:34.719 --> 04:09:37.920 is my people freaked out about the assault in Cambodia. 3990 04:09:38.040 --> 04:09:41.399 Is because to them it indicated a wider war. In 3991 04:09:41.520 --> 04:09:45.360 a sense, it was, but Nixon was not lying. Vietnamization 3992 04:09:45.559 --> 04:09:49.040 was well underway. There was an active disengagement. The Army 3993 04:09:49.040 --> 04:09:53.440 of the Republic of Vietnam was taking on the brunt 3994 04:09:53.520 --> 04:09:58.920 of combat duties, and Cambodia was key. And we'll get 3995 04:09:58.959 --> 04:10:01.159 into that if you know you're willing to. When we 3996 04:10:01.200 --> 04:10:05.680 got the time, Nixon really kind of neutralized the strategic 3997 04:10:06.319 --> 04:10:11.879 uh game of Warsaw Pact in Vietnam by affecting the 3998 04:10:11.920 --> 04:10:16.959 Sun that Soviets split wherein China and their proxy, the 3999 04:10:17.040 --> 04:10:19.840 Khmer Rouge, came to be totally at odds with the 4000 04:10:19.920 --> 04:10:25.360 Soviet Union and Hanoi, and an active proxy war between 4001 04:10:25.520 --> 04:10:30.200 communist superpowers developed. Uh, you know, between the Vietnamese and 4002 04:10:30.399 --> 04:10:32.520 the Khmer Rouge. I mean, whether the Commuter Rouge were 4003 04:10:32.559 --> 04:10:35.479 evil or not. I mean that that's another issue. But 4004 04:10:36.559 --> 04:10:39.079 point being, there was complexities to widen the war in 4005 04:10:39.120 --> 04:10:42.600 Cambodia that couldn't really be finessed in pr terms. And 4006 04:10:42.680 --> 04:10:45.040 the fact Nixon what have been going on with him 4007 04:10:45.040 --> 04:10:49.840 because during Layered it seemed rotten. These things kind of 4008 04:10:50.120 --> 04:10:55.239 conspired to really turn public opinion against what was underway. 4009 04:10:57.000 --> 04:10:59.079 So yeah, I mean I realized I was a long winded, 4010 04:10:59.079 --> 04:11:02.360 in some of a scattershoff, but yes, there was a 4011 04:11:02.479 --> 04:11:05.479 huge impact. It was one part the anti war movement, 4012 04:11:05.520 --> 04:11:07.319 which was in part I mean it was a fifth 4013 04:11:07.360 --> 04:11:10.000 column regardless, but in part of actually was funded and 4014 04:11:10.200 --> 04:11:15.959 organized by UH agents of Warsaw Pact intelligence services. There 4015 04:11:16.000 --> 04:11:20.719 was a hostile media apparatus, even those that weren't even 4016 04:11:20.760 --> 04:11:24.879 those aspects of national media at warn't hostile Johnson who 4017 04:11:24.959 --> 04:11:27.479 did a lot of incredibly stupid and kind of incomprehensible 4018 04:11:27.520 --> 04:11:30.760 things allowing media to truly be embedded in the field 4019 04:11:31.040 --> 04:11:35.600 with combat elements in a war like Vietnam I with 4020 04:11:35.799 --> 04:11:39.440 free fire zones. I mean that that's literally insane. You know, 4021 04:11:39.520 --> 04:11:41.479 it was inevitable even if something like mel I hadn't 4022 04:11:41.520 --> 04:11:46.040 broken at some point, some newsmen would would have had 4023 04:11:46.479 --> 04:11:49.600 raw footage of gis like wasting like women and kids. 4024 04:11:49.840 --> 04:11:52.079 I'm not saying as American troops are evil or something 4025 04:11:52.159 --> 04:11:54.399 at all. I'm saying like that's what happens in a 4026 04:11:54.440 --> 04:11:59.799 free fire zone, okay, and in in good wars like 4027 04:12:00.040 --> 04:12:03.840 Over one and two that happened also, but in Vietnam. Uh, 4028 04:12:04.680 --> 04:12:07.959 going to the peculiar nuances of the strategic environment, that 4029 04:12:08.079 --> 04:12:12.200 kind of thing happened in alarming earnest, if that makes 4030 04:12:12.200 --> 04:12:15.600 any sense. But point being, Yeah, so some of this 4031 04:12:15.799 --> 04:12:18.159 was some of this was self sabotaged. Some of this 4032 04:12:18.280 --> 04:12:20.319 was kind of like the peculiar some of those people 4033 04:12:20.440 --> 04:12:23.360 not really understanding like I mean, TV was still new 4034 04:12:23.440 --> 04:12:27.040 then basically. I mean part of it was, uh, you know, 4035 04:12:27.600 --> 04:12:29.840 especially Johnson, you know, who was a guy who was 4036 04:12:29.879 --> 04:12:32.600 like born in nearly twentieth century and not really understanding things. 4037 04:12:32.840 --> 04:12:36.280 Party was Johnson wasn't was fucking insane. Uh. Part of 4038 04:12:36.360 --> 04:12:40.680 it was you know, the uh you had a you know, 4039 04:12:40.879 --> 04:12:43.399 you had a you had a domestic situation that had 4040 04:12:43.440 --> 04:12:46.239 been actually subverted, which was literally the opposite of you know, 4041 04:12:47.079 --> 04:12:49.559 the situation the New Dealer was confronted, you know, when 4042 04:12:49.600 --> 04:12:53.120 they mobilized for war. I mean it was uh on 4043 04:12:53.239 --> 04:12:56.040 the top of that too. I mean there was there 4044 04:12:56.079 --> 04:12:59.159 was incredibly dangerous things. But you know, sixty two was 4045 04:12:59.159 --> 04:13:03.719 the Cuba crisis. Seventy three was the next major crisis 4046 04:13:03.760 --> 04:13:05.319 in the Middle East, which I think in some ways 4047 04:13:05.440 --> 04:13:09.799 was more dangerous nable Arch eighty three, Okay, But in 4048 04:13:09.879 --> 04:13:13.079 the interim, you know you had, uh, there was five 4049 04:13:13.159 --> 04:13:18.200 thousand Soviet military uh personnel on the ground in North Vietnam. 4050 04:13:19.120 --> 04:13:22.840 You know, intelligence types. You know, some of these guys 4051 04:13:22.879 --> 04:13:25.840 are training the northe the knees on SAM missiles and things. 4052 04:13:26.680 --> 04:13:29.200 But uh, there's a there's you know, there was the 4053 04:13:29.319 --> 04:13:32.399 constant fear, you know during these operations like Linebacker, are 4054 04:13:32.399 --> 04:13:34.959 we gonna kill a bunch of Russians? And then you 4055 04:13:35.040 --> 04:13:37.239 know what we're gonna is, what the what the fuck's 4056 04:13:37.239 --> 04:13:39.479 that Crimlin gonna do? Then maybe nothing, or maybe they're 4057 04:13:39.479 --> 04:13:41.559 gonna treat as an act of war. This was like 4058 04:13:41.639 --> 04:13:45.120 incredibly dangerous stuff. And uh there's the ongoing you know 4059 04:13:45.239 --> 04:13:49.079 issue in Europe where you know you had you know, 4060 04:13:49.159 --> 04:13:51.600 you had uh you know, you literally had three hundred 4061 04:13:51.639 --> 04:13:56.159 thousand US troops, uh those and those with the Red Army, 4062 04:13:56.719 --> 04:13:58.879 the full the Gap and then the Rederman plane I mean, 4063 04:13:59.079 --> 04:14:01.959 and and say nothing of you know, occupied the Lynn 4064 04:14:02.120 --> 04:14:07.000 like it this. People don't realize, uh, I mean if 4065 04:14:07.079 --> 04:14:09.280 you don't realize how, I mean you remember because you're 4066 04:14:09.280 --> 04:14:10.959 old enough, and I do. I mean I didn't live 4067 04:14:11.000 --> 04:14:14.159 through Vietnam, but you know, I do remember vividly the 4068 04:14:14.200 --> 04:14:18.680 early eighties and being afraid of of uh of nuclear war. 4069 04:14:18.840 --> 04:14:21.840 I mean, people don't realize like how how tense things 4070 04:14:21.920 --> 04:14:25.479 were and in data capacity that was strewing with people's lives. 4071 04:14:25.559 --> 04:14:29.840 And even even people who basically were patriotic according to 4072 04:14:29.920 --> 04:14:33.600 the terms of you know, the era, and even people 4073 04:14:33.600 --> 04:14:36.479 who weren't particularly anti government, there was a certainly like 4074 04:14:36.559 --> 04:14:38.719 weirdness of the Cold War thinking. And it's like okay, 4075 04:14:38.879 --> 04:14:41.280 like you know, even people who didn't have you know, 4076 04:14:41.479 --> 04:14:44.680 teenage kids, at least some kid on their block gotten 4077 04:14:44.719 --> 04:14:47.360 blown away, you nom or some relative of theirs. You know, 4078 04:14:47.399 --> 04:14:50.239 they got this constant fear of like nuclear attack, you 4079 04:14:50.319 --> 04:14:53.399 know it. Uh, the economy was going to shit, like 4080 04:14:53.479 --> 04:14:56.520 despite people like Olivers don't tell you, like Vietnam didn't 4081 04:14:56.559 --> 04:14:59.479 like make everybody rich, Like yeah, there's always war profiteers 4082 04:15:00.079 --> 04:15:03.040 and Zelenski types, like there were five hundred years ago, 4083 04:15:03.040 --> 04:15:04.840 and there were five thousand years ago. There weren't in 4084 04:15:04.959 --> 04:15:07.280 the sixty eight or to day. Yeah, there were guys 4085 04:15:07.360 --> 04:15:10.200 were profiting from the Vietnam War. But the Vietnam War 4086 04:15:10.360 --> 04:15:12.799 was killing the American economy, you know, I mean like 4087 04:15:12.879 --> 04:15:15.799 it was. These were not like good times. Okay, it's uh, 4088 04:15:16.639 --> 04:15:18.559 that's one of the uh in America didn't really right 4089 04:15:18.600 --> 04:15:21.760 itself until Reagan's second term. Honestly. I mean there's other 4090 04:15:21.799 --> 04:15:24.920 contributing factors, you know, like the energy crisis and the 4091 04:15:25.000 --> 04:15:30.719 need to like restructure uh, like certain aspects of America's 4092 04:15:30.840 --> 04:15:35.440 uh of America's consumption energy consumption in order to would 4093 04:15:35.440 --> 04:15:38.559 count from new realities. But it literally took like a 4094 04:15:38.639 --> 04:15:41.319 decade and a half, like America like on fuck itself 4095 04:15:41.360 --> 04:15:44.200 from Vietnam, like in terms of you know, the national 4096 04:15:44.280 --> 04:15:47.959 economic profile. But seven it was all of those things. 4097 04:15:49.600 --> 04:15:52.079 The big uh, the big issue with the Paris Peace 4098 04:15:52.120 --> 04:15:58.120 agreements is people, Yeah go ahead. 4099 04:15:58.280 --> 04:16:04.200 Yeah, you're you're talking about the economy. And they were 4100 04:16:04.520 --> 04:16:10.600 almost literally doing two wars because not only are they 4101 04:16:10.639 --> 04:16:12.680 paying for Vietnam, but now they have this war on 4102 04:16:12.879 --> 04:16:16.959 poverty that they're having to print money over and so 4103 04:16:17.159 --> 04:16:21.200 you of course you're going things are going to go 4104 04:16:21.280 --> 04:16:25.479 to two ship because when you're also millions of social 4105 04:16:25.559 --> 04:16:27.520 program come in, you're. 4106 04:16:27.399 --> 04:16:30.120 Also throwing millions upon millions on millions of dollars to 4107 04:16:30.200 --> 04:16:32.719 develop you know, ICBM systems that you know can be 4108 04:16:32.799 --> 04:16:36.159 super hardened to withstand like first strike. You know, like 4109 04:16:37.600 --> 04:16:40.280 you know, keep keeping be fifty two's constantly in the air, 4110 04:16:40.840 --> 04:16:43.920 like with nuclear payloads, keeping three hundred thousand men in 4111 04:16:44.040 --> 04:16:47.840 West Germany, you know, keeping uh, you know, developing and 4112 04:16:47.920 --> 04:16:53.159 maintaining like a fleet of Minutemen missiles as uh, you know, 4113 04:16:53.239 --> 04:16:56.680 as the primary deterrent you know, keeping uh keeping nuclear 4114 04:16:56.760 --> 04:17:00.440 cable submarines in the war. Like this is unbelievable defensive. 4115 04:17:00.920 --> 04:17:02.639 You know, like one of the reasons why like Reagan 4116 04:17:02.879 --> 04:17:07.479 went all in to win the Cold War wasn't just 4117 04:17:07.559 --> 04:17:10.520 because you know, he you know, he had like balls 4118 04:17:10.639 --> 04:17:13.479 or something, or because he you know, he you know, 4119 04:17:13.559 --> 04:17:15.639 he wasn't like a pushy like Carder or whatever, like 4120 04:17:15.760 --> 04:17:19.479 dumb things people think today, And uh, look like America, 4121 04:17:19.879 --> 04:17:23.120 America could waive the colder longer than Ivan, but America's 4122 04:17:23.200 --> 04:17:25.799 running out of money to fucking do it too. You know, 4123 04:17:26.120 --> 04:17:29.120 you can't you cannot sustain that, and definitely you're either 4124 04:17:29.159 --> 04:17:31.319 gonna go to war or you're gonna face some kind 4125 04:17:31.319 --> 04:17:33.879 of structural crisis like the Soviets did, and then the 4126 04:17:33.920 --> 04:17:37.520 odds of war happening becomes exponentially more likely. I mean, 4127 04:17:37.559 --> 04:17:41.200 you know that this idea somehow like America could have 4128 04:17:41.239 --> 04:17:44.000 like it definitely you know, maintains like a six hundred 4129 04:17:44.040 --> 04:17:48.239 ship navy. Uh, you know, could have could have continuously 4130 04:17:48.360 --> 04:17:52.159 like fielded like you know Nora Dora weapons. Uh, you know, 4131 04:17:52.280 --> 04:17:56.680 like the B two platform and uh, and you know, 4132 04:17:56.760 --> 04:17:59.719 and and and and pursue you know, SDI which would 4133 04:17:59.760 --> 04:18:02.079 have become necessary. I know, people just like like to 4134 04:18:02.159 --> 04:18:03.879 talk about it. It's like I'm gonna pipe dream, you know, 4135 04:18:03.920 --> 04:18:07.000 people like you know, mister Ted Kennedy and the Epoch. 4136 04:18:07.120 --> 04:18:10.479 But it wasn't like Jerry Parnell said, like orbital space 4137 04:18:11.200 --> 04:18:13.319 had the Cold War indor in the ninety nineties, like 4138 04:18:14.399 --> 04:18:18.959 orbital space is going to become what naval warfare platforms 4139 04:18:19.000 --> 04:18:21.959 were the strategic nuclear planning in the eighties. I mean, 4140 04:18:22.239 --> 04:18:25.200 at some point the money would have run out, you know. 4141 04:18:25.280 --> 04:18:26.799 You like again, it's they can't. 4142 04:18:27.360 --> 04:18:35.079 That's also that's also why President Nixon ended Breton Woods. 4143 04:18:35.799 --> 04:18:37.479 I mean it makes it easier if you get off 4144 04:18:37.520 --> 04:18:40.600 the gold standard, then you can uh, you know, accelerate 4145 04:18:40.639 --> 04:18:41.520 the money supply to. 4146 04:18:42.319 --> 04:18:44.559 Yeah, very much so. But it's also too he was 4147 04:18:44.600 --> 04:18:50.959 genuinely worried. He was genuinely worried about about UH about 4148 04:18:50.959 --> 04:18:53.040 about like a run on the gold resers I, which 4149 04:18:53.120 --> 04:18:56.399 was like a real that was that was a real prospect, 4150 04:18:57.719 --> 04:19:00.239 especially because it's like outside the scope and against with 4151 04:19:00.280 --> 04:19:02.399 this in another episode. And I'm not an economist, but 4152 04:19:02.440 --> 04:19:04.799 I do know I am something of an economic historian, 4153 04:19:04.840 --> 04:19:09.360 and that I I like a basic conceptual picture of UH, 4154 04:19:10.159 --> 04:19:14.079 of the about the structure of UH American economic policy changed, 4155 04:19:14.079 --> 04:19:17.520 and just like how globalism kind of gradually became a reality, 4156 04:19:17.920 --> 04:19:20.799 you know, and how the kind of information age you know, 4157 04:19:21.000 --> 04:19:24.920 changed the way financial markets function wheever meets the road. 4158 04:19:25.440 --> 04:19:28.079 And aside of all these things, you and I just 4159 04:19:28.280 --> 04:19:31.879 raised the nineteen seventies. That was the dawn. That was 4160 04:19:31.879 --> 04:19:34.200 what you're done of the information age. Okay, I mean 4161 04:19:34.399 --> 04:19:36.440 you could say that like the kind of machines that 4162 04:19:36.760 --> 04:19:39.760 like Turing machines were, I don't mean like that, I 4163 04:19:39.840 --> 04:19:41.559 mean like the digital age. I guess I should say 4164 04:19:42.319 --> 04:19:44.840 that the dawna that was the ninety seventies and things 4165 04:19:44.920 --> 04:19:48.280 from from the nineteen seventies to now, things changed just rapidly, 4166 04:19:48.840 --> 04:19:51.200 you know, and that that was altering the way business 4167 04:19:51.319 --> 04:19:53.639 is done in the way like money is conceptualized, in 4168 04:19:53.760 --> 04:19:57.760 my opinion, for better and for worse. I mean, it was, 4169 04:19:57.879 --> 04:20:00.280 it was not. It was not all negative, although there 4170 04:20:00.280 --> 04:20:04.360 aren't any negatives, but you know, the these kinds of punctuated, 4171 04:20:06.319 --> 04:20:12.399 these kinds of punctuated changes are they they're their stresses, 4172 04:20:12.440 --> 04:20:18.680 you know, like I they they they uh, they cause 4173 04:20:19.120 --> 04:20:22.319 they make they make crises more probable of all sorts. 4174 04:20:22.399 --> 04:20:28.000 So yeah, it uh, you know, but the the main 4175 04:20:28.200 --> 04:20:31.760 uh what I kind of wanted to emphasize on, you know, 4176 04:20:31.920 --> 04:20:33.879 I mean, like all things related to Vietnam even today, 4177 04:20:33.920 --> 04:20:35.799 even though kind of the like the tamboo is no 4178 04:20:35.959 --> 04:20:39.120 longer around the Vietnam War obviously as it was for 4179 04:20:39.920 --> 04:20:41.399 you know when I was a kid and like when 4180 04:20:41.399 --> 04:20:45.079 you were a teenager. I'm sure, but people there's still 4181 04:20:45.120 --> 04:20:47.760 like ill understood's there's this idea of the Paaris peace talks. 4182 04:20:48.479 --> 04:20:50.520 Like guys are kind of the mainstream, right, even some 4183 04:20:50.639 --> 04:20:53.920 guys like on the dissident right, they do it. It's like, oh, well, 4184 04:20:54.520 --> 04:20:57.719 Congress screwed Nixon over and just you know, cut off 4185 04:20:57.760 --> 04:21:02.239 the money supply and you know, the tangible military aid 4186 04:21:02.520 --> 04:21:05.200 to the Republic of Vietnam. You know, so the South 4187 04:21:05.239 --> 04:21:08.360 can't defend itself, and you know, Hanoi was just rubbing 4188 04:21:08.440 --> 04:21:10.719 its hands together and never meant to like abide the 4189 04:21:10.840 --> 04:21:15.479 rules of the or the material express conditions of the 4190 04:21:15.520 --> 04:21:18.239 peace agreement. It's not really true, you know. And then 4191 04:21:18.239 --> 04:21:21.239 there's like other people who uh uh, you know, people 4192 04:21:21.280 --> 04:21:24.040 on the left and kind of like Majama Storians. They 4193 04:21:24.159 --> 04:21:26.040 just claim that like, well Nixon was just making you know, 4194 04:21:26.159 --> 04:21:28.440 make a fool the American people and like pretending to 4195 04:21:28.639 --> 04:21:32.200 accomplish peace, and that that's not true either. This was 4196 04:21:32.280 --> 04:21:35.879 kind of a if you the view from Nixon and 4197 04:21:36.200 --> 04:21:41.280 Kissinger and uh and across the aisle, you know, jop 4198 04:21:41.520 --> 04:21:46.120 and and and the Hanoi leadership, like the Central Committee, 4199 04:21:46.399 --> 04:21:48.959 the communist part of Vietnam, there's like a lack of 4200 04:21:49.000 --> 04:21:53.520 shared premises written large and if you read the statements, uh, 4201 04:21:54.159 --> 04:21:57.959 what Hanoi was saying to Cosvin Cosvin cos VN that's 4202 04:21:57.959 --> 04:22:02.760 an acronym. It' says for Central offices South Vietnam. There 4203 04:22:02.840 --> 04:22:06.639 was the anglicized acronym for the what amountse the Central 4204 04:22:06.680 --> 04:22:10.120 Committee of the Viet Cong OKAY based in South Vietnam, 4205 04:22:11.280 --> 04:22:17.959 and what they communicated to them was that in their view, 4206 04:22:19.479 --> 04:22:22.079 what the ceasefire meant, or what the peace agreement meant, 4207 04:22:22.200 --> 04:22:27.879 was that America would disengage that communists in South Vietnam, 4208 04:22:28.159 --> 04:22:33.159 like former party members, Viet Cong suspects, you know, sympathizers 4209 04:22:33.159 --> 04:22:36.280 all in Sundry, would no longer be treated as enemy combatants. 4210 04:22:37.879 --> 04:22:41.559 A roadmap would be implemented as it were for what 4211 04:22:42.040 --> 04:22:45.319 was supposed to be implemented in nineteen fifty four, you know, 4212 04:22:45.399 --> 04:22:49.280 which was eventually you know, like countrywide elections, which never 4213 04:22:49.360 --> 04:22:52.520 actually happened, in part because of the constantly you know, 4214 04:22:52.600 --> 04:22:56.120 the Kazi changing regime in Saigon never allowed to happen. 4215 04:22:56.239 --> 04:22:58.319 Like that is true, and they wouldn't allow to happen 4216 04:22:58.360 --> 04:23:00.559 because it would have Vietnam would have gone. So I 4217 04:23:00.719 --> 04:23:06.639 understand that completely. But Uh, the two regime in Saigon 4218 04:23:07.799 --> 04:23:13.760 immediately after, uh, like the ink was dry. Uh. Basically 4219 04:23:13.920 --> 04:23:17.559 like a major push happened in key areas, especially border 4220 04:23:17.639 --> 04:23:21.319 territories like with with Cambodia, as well as the Quang 4221 04:23:21.399 --> 04:23:27.239 Tray province. You know, key uh key key operational areas 4222 04:23:27.319 --> 04:23:33.159 of communist uh control that were like strategically essential for 4223 04:23:33.280 --> 04:23:35.120 them to be able to bargain from a position of 4224 04:23:35.159 --> 04:23:40.959 strength and an advent of hostilities access logistically uh what 4225 04:23:41.079 --> 04:23:46.280 they needed to in Cambodia. And when it became clear 4226 04:23:46.440 --> 04:23:49.440 that the South was gonna was going to continue to 4227 04:23:50.280 --> 04:23:52.120 you know, trying to annihilate when remained of the Viet 4228 04:23:52.239 --> 04:23:58.479 Kong Uh, the Doris responded with conventional means, and their 4229 04:23:58.680 --> 04:24:03.680 reasoning was always South Vietnam is not a sovereign country either, 4230 04:24:03.719 --> 04:24:07.840 are not to Vietnams. Then North never accepted that. So 4231 04:24:07.959 --> 04:24:11.680 their notion was well, kind of like the provisional Ira 4232 04:24:12.200 --> 04:24:14.719 and you can say this is in bad faith. Their 4233 04:24:14.799 --> 04:24:19.319 view was always, you know, we're, uh, we're gonna lay 4234 04:24:19.319 --> 04:24:21.840 down our arms. But you've basically got to like allow like, 4235 04:24:22.000 --> 04:24:25.520 you know, full representation the communist party, and you know 4236 04:24:25.639 --> 04:24:28.200 you've got to you've got to give our people, you know, 4237 04:24:28.920 --> 04:24:34.200 the quality of status at the polls, and uh you 4238 04:24:34.280 --> 04:24:39.440 know added to that too. Obviously there's epistemological problem with 4239 04:24:39.559 --> 04:24:43.360 communism because they claim that they're practicing a kind of science. 4240 04:24:43.920 --> 04:24:46.200 And if you refuse to abide what they claim is 4241 04:24:46.239 --> 04:24:48.840 the inevitable science of history, you know, which is like 4242 04:24:48.920 --> 04:24:52.840 advancing socialism. You know, you're basically engaged in some kind 4243 04:24:52.879 --> 04:24:56.719 of oppression of humanity in general. Like quite literally, this 4244 04:24:56.879 --> 04:24:58.799 is like what they'd say, you know, whether you're talking 4245 04:24:58.799 --> 04:25:01.000 about East Berlin while you're talking on Moscow, where you're 4246 04:25:01.000 --> 04:25:05.639 talking about Prague, where you're talking about Vietnam. So there's 4247 04:25:05.639 --> 04:25:09.120 like added just kind of like just added like inability 4248 04:25:09.159 --> 04:25:12.600 to come to terms that like framed like uh, Hanoi's 4249 04:25:14.000 --> 04:25:21.680 conceptual horizon. However, Nixon basically puts Saigon in as good 4250 04:25:21.719 --> 04:25:24.239 as stead as it could have been in terms of 4251 04:25:24.319 --> 04:25:28.879 political legitimacy and in terms of bolstering their case in 4252 04:25:29.040 --> 04:25:32.159 the court of world opinion, which actually mattered then in 4253 04:25:32.200 --> 04:25:36.719 a way it didn't it doesn't now. And uh, the 4254 04:25:36.840 --> 04:25:41.319 nineteen seventy two offensive, colloquially called the Easter of by 4255 04:25:41.479 --> 04:25:47.000 like you know, military geeks and uh, like historians on Sundry, 4256 04:25:47.399 --> 04:25:49.920 that was stopped in its tracks. I mean, American air 4257 04:25:50.000 --> 04:25:54.559 power were devastated North Vietnamese armed columns, but the other 4258 04:25:54.600 --> 04:25:58.479 public of Vietnam actually stood and fought, and like, I 4259 04:25:58.799 --> 04:26:01.719 think I made the point some we back that they 4260 04:26:01.799 --> 04:26:04.319 get a bad rap, you know, because they're always kind 4261 04:26:04.360 --> 04:26:07.399 of panned as like this cowardly forest like crooks and 4262 04:26:07.719 --> 04:26:09.280 like anyway, full mill jag at the only time you 4263 04:26:09.280 --> 04:26:12.200 see the Arvin on screen, it's some Arvin captain and 4264 04:26:12.280 --> 04:26:15.120 he's wearing like some faggety like fucking silk scarf and 4265 04:26:15.159 --> 04:26:17.799 he's literally pimping some girl to the Marines, like hey, 4266 04:26:17.920 --> 04:26:19.559 you want you want to boom boom and like and that, 4267 04:26:20.159 --> 04:26:22.120 Like you literally never see a portrayal of them as 4268 04:26:22.200 --> 04:26:25.600 like anything but like the scum to eggs or like pussies, 4269 04:26:25.639 --> 04:26:28.959 and like that's not fair. I mean, I'm not a 4270 04:26:29.079 --> 04:26:31.399 Vietnam veterans, so like, I'm sure those guys had their 4271 04:26:31.399 --> 04:26:34.280 own extra grind with them people, But I'm talking the 4272 04:26:34.319 --> 04:26:36.360 historical record, just like as a dude who like writes 4273 04:26:36.360 --> 04:26:40.479 about his ortal topics. There's nothing else like the seventy 4274 04:26:40.520 --> 04:26:43.040 two offensive and the fact that it was stopping its 4275 04:26:43.120 --> 04:26:45.799 tracks like a quits the army the Republic of Vietnam. Okay, 4276 04:26:45.920 --> 04:26:50.319 that's not all airpower. Okay, so yeah there's that, but 4277 04:26:50.399 --> 04:26:54.239 that's that's kind of the way to understand the Paris 4278 04:26:54.280 --> 04:26:57.520 Piece agreement. It wasn't just kissing, dripping duplicatus or Nixon, 4279 04:26:58.239 --> 04:27:00.280 you know, being a snake or I mean, what would 4280 04:27:00.319 --> 04:27:03.399 Nixon game from that anyway? Like because all if any 4281 04:27:03.440 --> 04:27:06.120 and who knows that about Nixon knows like Nixon's a 4282 04:27:06.159 --> 04:27:08.840 guy who like he's a rare American who lived historically 4283 04:27:08.959 --> 04:27:11.840 in absolute terms, like all Nicks never thought about was 4284 04:27:11.920 --> 04:27:15.079 his like contribution to history. Like Nixon never ever ever 4285 04:27:15.239 --> 04:27:19.760 would just like it, just like you know, pull him 4286 04:27:19.760 --> 04:27:21.760 on her ruse and said, like the hell with Tangan, 4287 04:27:21.840 --> 04:27:24.520 I don't care, you know this, I'm just gonna you know, 4288 04:27:24.600 --> 04:27:26.120 this is how I'm gonna like try and shore up 4289 04:27:26.399 --> 04:27:28.440 by Craig, like and I missed the Watergate like that 4290 04:27:28.639 --> 04:27:34.879 this nonsense, but it but it's also you know, the 4291 04:27:34.959 --> 04:27:38.680 Sino Soviet split Nixon. If you read what Nixon wrote 4292 04:27:39.920 --> 04:27:44.200 after the war and post Watergate, Nixon disappeared for about 4293 04:27:44.239 --> 04:27:47.200 five years, but then he made it come back as 4294 04:27:47.239 --> 04:27:50.479 a best selling author. And as the Cold War heated 4295 04:27:50.559 --> 04:27:54.360 up again, you know, people became very thirsty for serious 4296 04:27:54.399 --> 04:27:59.920 analysis on on geo's strategic things. And Nixon really had 4297 04:28:00.000 --> 04:28:04.600 the Soviet Union's number in a way remarkable, and he 4298 04:28:04.719 --> 04:28:08.040 wrote a lot about why he went to China, and 4299 04:28:08.159 --> 04:28:11.000 he said, like, look, you know, I basically realized in 4300 04:28:11.120 --> 04:28:14.079 nineteen fifty three, you know, as the steelmate in Korea 4301 04:28:14.159 --> 04:28:17.440 set in, like we had to decople pig King from 4302 04:28:17.479 --> 04:28:20.479 Moscow at all costs. I mean, yeah, we have to 4303 04:28:20.520 --> 04:28:24.360 make compromises there. Like yeah, you know a lot of 4304 04:28:24.399 --> 04:28:26.879 people would suffer in places like Cambodia because of that. 4305 04:28:28.719 --> 04:28:30.680 You know, you can say it's callous, but Nixon was 4306 04:28:30.920 --> 04:28:35.600 totally open about that. But had that not happened, the 4307 04:28:35.639 --> 04:28:38.600 Communists would have won the Cold War absolutely. You know, 4308 04:28:40.479 --> 04:28:42.639 you'd have a communist world in America, this kind of 4309 04:28:42.680 --> 04:28:50.040 garrison of state that existed, you know, and had an 4310 04:28:50.079 --> 04:28:52.920 ability to protect power kind of like in nineteenth century terms, 4311 04:28:53.040 --> 04:28:55.520 like you know, throughout like the western hemisphere, probably as 4312 04:28:55.520 --> 04:28:58.879 far as Greenland or something. But it would, you know, 4313 04:28:59.000 --> 04:29:01.000 it would it would be this kind of like island 4314 04:29:01.040 --> 04:29:03.920 to miss, like a hostel like red World. Okay, and 4315 04:29:04.040 --> 04:29:07.879 that was a very real possibility had things that developed 4316 04:29:07.920 --> 04:29:12.319 what they did. But in the more immediate capacity, uh, 4317 04:29:12.760 --> 04:29:14.680 Nixon realized he had the court now when he did, 4318 04:29:14.799 --> 04:29:20.840 because that neutralized that, they neutralized that the strategic advantage 4319 04:29:20.879 --> 04:29:26.200 of of Soviet victory by proxy and Vietnam because uh, 4320 04:29:27.040 --> 04:29:29.680 he literally had a communist super state on the border 4321 04:29:29.799 --> 04:29:33.000 of like you know, their client in Vietnam, and uh, 4322 04:29:33.520 --> 04:29:35.879 the Khmer Rouge would stand with China no matter what. 4323 04:29:37.000 --> 04:29:40.120 You know, it didn't matter that, you know, they they'd uh, 4324 04:29:41.040 --> 04:29:44.719 it didn't matter that they'd clicked up with the Soviets 4325 04:29:44.719 --> 04:29:47.360 and the Chinese and the National Liberation Front and Hanoi 4326 04:29:48.239 --> 04:29:52.879 to fight the Americans when uh, when things the Commie 4327 04:29:53.040 --> 04:29:55.200 never liked the Vietnamese anyway, and when things went bad 4328 04:29:55.440 --> 04:30:00.559 between Hanoi and or between them Moscow and pet King, Uh, 4329 04:30:00.799 --> 04:30:03.079 the Kremer Rugs would always be all in with with 4330 04:30:03.280 --> 04:30:08.120 China and it's will okay, So you had Nixon managed 4331 04:30:08.239 --> 04:30:11.799 uh you know what what what what did the Soviets 4332 04:30:11.799 --> 04:30:14.319 are like gained in Vietnam. It's like okay, Yeah, like 4333 04:30:14.399 --> 04:30:18.559 we talked about Vietnam was uh that was where that 4334 04:30:18.719 --> 04:30:20.319 was that that was that was where the line in 4335 04:30:20.360 --> 04:30:23.600 the sand was drawn. You know, when when the Free 4336 04:30:23.680 --> 04:30:26.360 World as it was called, you know, like fought you know, 4337 04:30:27.440 --> 04:30:32.120 the Communists in open combat, it didn't matter. It could 4338 04:30:32.120 --> 04:30:33.840 have been anywhere, but that's just where it was. There 4339 04:30:33.879 --> 04:30:36.639 was a political fight, it wasn't a struggle for resources 4340 04:30:36.680 --> 04:30:40.639 and territory. And yeah, they Congress won that. But it's 4341 04:30:40.680 --> 04:30:44.639 like okay, so uh, now, you know the Soviets that 4342 04:30:44.760 --> 04:30:47.319 basically like this kind of they've got they've got this, 4343 04:30:48.120 --> 04:30:52.040 they've they've got this appendage beliaguered by you know, hostile 4344 04:30:52.200 --> 04:30:56.719 kremie ruge Cambodia and like hostile you know, communists China 4345 04:30:56.799 --> 04:31:00.680 do it's north And that is really interesting too because 4346 04:31:00.760 --> 04:31:05.479 obviously this at that time the trifect uh that truly 4347 04:31:05.600 --> 04:31:08.879 ruled the Soviet Union in my opinion was Usenov and 4348 04:31:09.000 --> 04:31:15.000 drop off in grom Eco. And you know, uh, the 4349 04:31:15.079 --> 04:31:18.959 Soviets hedge against China was India. You know, that's something 4350 04:31:19.000 --> 04:31:23.000 like the true military interdepensula between Moscow and in India. 4351 04:31:23.719 --> 04:31:26.440 And uh, that's when Kissinger went all in with uh 4352 04:31:26.760 --> 04:31:29.920 with Pakistan, you know, in the India, the Indo Pakistan 4353 04:31:30.120 --> 04:31:33.159 or it was very much a Cold War proxy resultant 4354 04:31:33.200 --> 04:31:36.600 directly from the writing on the wall. The Soviets detected 4355 04:31:36.639 --> 04:31:40.479 from what's happening with Nixon and China. And then when 4356 04:31:40.520 --> 04:31:44.600 that I mean that result incredibly brutally, and then the 4357 04:31:44.680 --> 04:31:48.280 Soviets pushed uh in Angola like immediately after. That's that's 4358 04:31:48.280 --> 04:31:51.520 why the Povias shifted to Africa. That Africa we can win, 4359 04:31:52.000 --> 04:31:53.879 you know, like what's the West have you know, They've 4360 04:31:53.879 --> 04:31:56.280 got Rogez Rogez is going down, you know, they got 4361 04:31:56.319 --> 04:31:59.959 South Africa South as a paraya, you know, and plut 4362 04:32:00.200 --> 04:32:02.040 like they wanted to fight the South Africans, you know, 4363 04:32:02.120 --> 04:32:04.280 and then fifty thousand Cubans showed up to fight the 4364 04:32:04.399 --> 04:32:06.159 s A d F, you know, and it was, hey, 4365 04:32:06.200 --> 04:32:07.879 we're you know, look at look at look at this, 4366 04:32:07.959 --> 04:32:10.200 look at this racist depressor state, you know, like we're 4367 04:32:10.920 --> 04:32:13.319 we're uh, you know, the the Warsaw Pack, you know, 4368 04:32:13.440 --> 04:32:15.719 believes in in liberating people, you know, in in the 4369 04:32:15.760 --> 04:32:19.239 global South or the colored world, take your pick. But that, 4370 04:32:20.559 --> 04:32:22.280 I mean, all these these things are just these things 4371 04:32:22.319 --> 04:32:25.120 are as incidental. It was approximately caused by Vietnam. I mean, 4372 04:32:25.120 --> 04:32:29.079 it's proximately caused by the fact that Nixon and Kissinger 4373 04:32:30.120 --> 04:32:34.520 were able to decouple Paking from Moscow, like in absolute terms, 4374 04:32:35.000 --> 04:32:37.520 you know, I mean, I you know, and it that 4375 04:32:38.159 --> 04:32:39.959 the point that that riff could never be repaired I 4376 04:32:40.040 --> 04:32:44.639 mean that that's remarkable. There would have been I mean 4377 04:32:44.719 --> 04:32:47.159 oing to the vagaries of Mao, and I think just 4378 04:32:47.680 --> 04:32:52.760 things in trip to the Chinese national and cultural character, 4379 04:32:53.399 --> 04:32:56.559 as well as just kind of racial differences and in 4380 04:32:57.360 --> 04:33:01.760 geostrategic issues. I think, I think the sin of Soviet 4381 04:33:01.799 --> 04:33:05.159 allions have been problematic going forward, but it definitely would 4382 04:33:05.200 --> 04:33:08.560 have held together until at least, you know, America splash. 4383 04:33:08.680 --> 04:33:14.639 NATO was like vanquished within for you know, the Oriasian 4384 04:33:14.759 --> 04:33:19.040 land mass and the Soviets and the shotgown is going 4385 04:33:19.080 --> 04:33:22.040 to handle. Ran says later, it always entirely to Nixon 4386 04:33:22.040 --> 04:33:28.279 and Kissinger that the Santa Soviets split was that freshness 4387 04:33:28.360 --> 04:33:33.119 and that permanent. I firmly believe that if that was 4388 04:33:33.200 --> 04:33:38.119 like to kind of like why widely off topic and 4389 04:33:38.200 --> 04:33:41.279 he wanted to focus more specifically and concretely in the 4390 04:33:41.400 --> 04:33:44.799 piece of Sorry, but I thought it was important to. 4391 04:33:48.799 --> 04:33:51.759 Well, here's one thing I wanted to bring up about 4392 04:33:51.799 --> 04:33:55.680 the accords. Yeah, most I would say a lot of 4393 04:33:55.759 --> 04:34:01.680 mainstream historians would say that southeas Vietnam was basically pressured 4394 04:34:01.759 --> 04:34:06.119 into accepting an agreement that basically ensured that it was 4395 04:34:06.360 --> 04:34:07.360 going to collapse. 4396 04:34:09.159 --> 04:34:12.639 I mean, I think there's a political problem here. Like 4397 04:34:12.759 --> 04:34:17.840 we're used to I mean, we're we're not been so 4398 04:34:17.840 --> 04:34:20.720 wrong would characterize it. We're accustomed to the Department of 4399 04:34:20.799 --> 04:34:25.639 State just kind of issuing these ridiculous statements that nobody 4400 04:34:25.799 --> 04:34:29.560 could possibly derive anything from. But like gross offense. I 4401 04:34:29.639 --> 04:34:32.799 mean in terms of like you know, the foreign regimes 4402 04:34:32.799 --> 04:34:36.599 that directed that, Like in the case of Vietnam, there 4403 04:34:36.680 --> 04:34:38.799 was a very it was a very delicate minuet. I mean, 4404 04:34:38.840 --> 04:34:42.840 first of all, I mean, like I said at the 4405 04:34:42.919 --> 04:34:47.279 Assets discussion, you know, we killed a huge amount of 4406 04:34:47.319 --> 04:34:49.799 people in North Vietnam, I mean in the south, but 4407 04:34:49.880 --> 04:34:54.479 particularly I mean we these were not people who had 4408 04:34:54.520 --> 04:34:58.080 warm feelings towards America, you know. I mean, this was 4409 04:34:58.119 --> 04:35:03.759 a brutal war with race overtone was frankly okay. Secondly, 4410 04:35:03.959 --> 04:35:07.599 like I said, this wasn't clear cut. I mean, arguably, 4411 04:35:07.639 --> 04:35:11.000 it's always ambiguous if you're talking about national frontiers, and 4412 04:35:11.080 --> 04:35:13.680 you know, like I know, people talk like, you know, 4413 04:35:13.840 --> 04:35:16.759 the borders of Ukraine are like absolutely sacred, you know, 4414 04:35:16.840 --> 04:35:19.439 and like more holy than you know, like some some 4415 04:35:19.880 --> 04:35:22.520 prom queen's virginity or something or that, Like you know, 4416 04:35:22.880 --> 04:35:25.639 the state of Poland is a sacred thing. I mean. 4417 04:35:25.840 --> 04:35:30.240 But aside from like the garbage of that, the the 4418 04:35:30.520 --> 04:35:34.599 status of Vietnam actually was genuinely ambiguous, you know, and 4419 04:35:35.479 --> 04:35:39.319 the succession of governments America really kind of mishandled that. 4420 04:35:39.880 --> 04:35:42.159 You know. It's like, okay, I mean, you know, you 4421 04:35:42.240 --> 04:35:44.639 had a guy like DM who straight up you know, 4422 04:35:44.680 --> 04:35:47.040 who straight up whacked because it was pretty clear he 4423 04:35:47.119 --> 04:35:48.720 was just gonna go all in and say like, hey, 4424 04:35:48.799 --> 04:35:53.159 look ala lala, like a national election, you know, basically, 4425 04:35:53.319 --> 04:35:57.439 and I think him, being in the kind of hustler 4426 04:35:57.479 --> 04:35:59.479 that he was, was looking to carve out some kind 4427 04:35:59.520 --> 04:36:02.959 of it's I king of space, uh, in the regime, 4428 04:36:03.919 --> 04:36:06.959 you know, for for him and those like himself, you know. 4429 04:36:07.159 --> 04:36:09.919 But he obviously, you know, America wasn't going to tolerate that. 4430 04:36:10.159 --> 04:36:12.639 But you know, their successors, you know, he had a 4431 04:36:12.639 --> 04:36:16.200 guy like too who was completely a hard line on 4432 04:36:16.240 --> 04:36:20.159 the Communists, but that that wasn't reasonable either, you know, 4433 04:36:20.319 --> 04:36:23.360 and they had to come to terms somehow. And I 4434 04:36:23.479 --> 04:36:29.840 believe Nixon's reasoning was you know, just strictly like in 4435 04:36:29.919 --> 04:36:32.080 theater in terms of the military situation and how it 4436 04:36:32.159 --> 04:36:38.599 impacted the delicate politics. As I said, if uh, if 4437 04:36:38.639 --> 04:36:43.080 there'd been a normal uh political situation in America, and 4438 04:36:43.119 --> 04:36:45.799 if you'd had you know, if if they're hadn't been 4439 04:36:45.880 --> 04:36:49.040 like quite literally a coup against Nixon, if you hadn't 4440 04:36:49.040 --> 04:36:51.200 had in Congress that you know, full of people who 4441 04:36:51.200 --> 04:36:55.479 are essentially campaigning on, you know, building a career on 4442 04:36:55.720 --> 04:36:59.680 you know, condemning the promoted evil of Vietnam war, had 4443 04:36:59.680 --> 04:37:03.159 the true doctrine being a bite it as intended, I 4444 04:37:03.240 --> 04:37:05.759 think South Vietnam could have basically held off a northern 4445 04:37:05.799 --> 04:37:10.560 assaultant definitely, and as perverse logic. The body count was 4446 04:37:10.639 --> 04:37:14.479 particularly as realized. You know, North Vietnam had been at 4447 04:37:14.560 --> 04:37:18.080 war for decades, and this thing of the burn rate, 4448 04:37:18.119 --> 04:37:20.279 they were losing a huge amount of military age males. 4449 04:37:20.880 --> 04:37:23.840 I mean, at some point the enormans would not have 4450 04:37:23.880 --> 04:37:26.279 been able to sustain that, you know, at some point 4451 04:37:27.639 --> 04:37:30.560 unless you're talking about some unless you're talking about some 4452 04:37:31.040 --> 04:37:34.799 crazy situation like the farc in Cambodia where you're literally 4453 04:37:34.840 --> 04:37:37.720 talking about dudes like living in the jungle, not metaphorically 4454 04:37:37.880 --> 04:37:41.680 literally you know who are like running running cocaine and 4455 04:37:41.840 --> 04:37:47.560 dope and uh, you know, carrying on some alleged insurgency 4456 04:37:47.639 --> 04:37:51.040 for fifty years, which probably more than anything. That's kind 4457 04:37:51.040 --> 04:37:53.159 of like a cover for their little like narco trade 4458 04:37:53.200 --> 04:37:58.520 and their bizarre kind of you know, anarchical primitives existence. 4459 04:37:58.919 --> 04:38:00.880 Like you can't you can't just a you know, a 4460 04:38:00.959 --> 04:38:04.840 revolutionary campaign for decades on decades, and we're not talking 4461 04:38:04.840 --> 04:38:07.159 about a low intensity campaign like the p I RA 4462 04:38:07.439 --> 04:38:10.360 and in Belfast. I mean even that is difficult. But 4463 04:38:10.799 --> 04:38:13.720 you know, we're talking about you know, the North India's 4464 04:38:13.799 --> 04:38:15.880 army was actually a crack army, and we're talking about 4465 04:38:15.959 --> 04:38:19.799 combined arms assaults. You know, where mass numbers of men 4466 04:38:19.959 --> 04:38:24.159 are dying. You know, uh where you know you're you're 4467 04:38:24.200 --> 04:38:27.720 assaulting with uh, you're restulting with columns a T fifty 4468 04:38:27.759 --> 04:38:30.360 four tanks. They have to be fueled, you know. Uh, 4469 04:38:31.400 --> 04:38:35.040 they're being uh they're they're getting close air support from 4470 04:38:35.080 --> 04:38:37.799 MiG seven teens that you know, with pilots, they have 4471 04:38:37.880 --> 04:38:40.080 to be trained extensively, and when they die, they're hard. 4472 04:38:40.119 --> 04:38:44.799 It's hard to replace them. You know, you're periodically, you know, 4473 04:38:45.759 --> 04:38:48.159 your capital city is periodically getting like bombed into the 4474 04:38:48.200 --> 04:38:50.599 fucking stone Age, you know what I mean, Like it 4475 04:38:50.759 --> 04:38:52.959 does take its toll over time, you know what I 4476 04:38:53.040 --> 04:38:58.560 mean and that, uh, I don't the vietnames initially thought 4477 04:38:58.599 --> 04:39:00.959 it would probably take them to the nineteen seventy nine, 4478 04:39:01.040 --> 04:39:03.959 nineteen eighty to win the war, like hannoy, I mean, 4479 04:39:04.720 --> 04:39:08.080 And there is interesting talk because obviously anyone who spoke 4480 04:39:08.959 --> 04:39:12.759 on the Central Committee like picked their language carefully, you know, 4481 04:39:12.799 --> 04:39:15.479 as people doing government, but particularly governments at war and 4482 04:39:15.639 --> 04:39:19.200 especially you know, the communist regimes the Cold War, you 4483 04:39:19.240 --> 04:39:23.119 could tell these guys were nervous, like military and civilian alike, 4484 04:39:23.319 --> 04:39:27.240 like look, basically, beyond nineteen eighty, all bets are off 4485 04:39:27.880 --> 04:39:31.159 like translated and really win the lines like we can't 4486 04:39:31.200 --> 04:39:38.680 sustain this indefinitely, you know. So there is that. But well, 4487 04:39:38.680 --> 04:39:40.439 I think I did want to raise I made the 4488 04:39:40.479 --> 04:39:43.439 point that in my opinion, and I'm not prilinologists, I 4489 04:39:43.439 --> 04:39:46.639 don't speak Russian, but I do know something about the 4490 04:39:46.759 --> 04:39:52.880 Soviet Union, and I believe firmly that the Soviet Union 4491 04:39:53.000 --> 04:39:57.400 was that zenith when the shadow Executive was this direfect 4492 04:39:57.520 --> 04:40:02.400 of u usnov Gramiko and and drop off and drop 4493 04:40:02.479 --> 04:40:06.080 off really really had the United States's number, okay, and 4494 04:40:06.200 --> 04:40:08.599 he under in a way that most Russians don't, in 4495 04:40:08.639 --> 04:40:12.000 the way frankly most like Eastern bloc types didn't. And 4496 04:40:12.119 --> 04:40:14.159 that's one of the reasons why he was so effective. 4497 04:40:14.919 --> 04:40:18.319 And he very much understood that if you can really 4498 04:40:18.439 --> 04:40:23.799 really fuck with, you know, the the internal situation of 4499 04:40:23.840 --> 04:40:28.400 America and and carve out a genuine like single issue 4500 04:40:28.439 --> 04:40:31.240 opposition on a matter of war and peace, you can 4501 04:40:31.319 --> 04:40:34.240 really really use food bar their system. You know. That's 4502 04:40:34.279 --> 04:40:36.720 kind of like America's weak point, just like Solidarity was 4503 04:40:36.720 --> 04:40:39.400 like the weak point of these Iron Curtain regimes, and 4504 04:40:39.560 --> 04:40:45.279 like its similar you know, uh, similarly structured things. You know. 4505 04:40:45.400 --> 04:40:47.759 Solidarity of course was it was like it basically a 4506 04:40:47.840 --> 04:40:51.759 Catholic social teaching movement that was at base, you know, 4507 04:40:51.919 --> 04:40:54.799 like a labor union, you know, that was demanding what 4508 04:40:54.880 --> 04:40:57.520 the party was was always promising but never delivering on. 4509 04:40:58.040 --> 04:41:01.520 And that was like kryptonite to the you know, Marcus 4510 04:41:01.599 --> 04:41:09.040 Lennon is Cadres that ruled you know it. Uh So, yeah, 4511 04:41:09.159 --> 04:41:11.400 there was. It's kind of a perfect storm of things 4512 04:41:11.479 --> 04:41:17.319 that made, you know, made the situation untenable visa the 4513 04:41:17.560 --> 04:41:21.119 South Vietnam. But I also I mean, and again I 4514 04:41:21.799 --> 04:41:24.520 want to well in the discussion just a bit, I 4515 04:41:24.560 --> 04:41:26.319 got to come to the point again again because people 4516 04:41:26.360 --> 04:41:28.880 like like Vietnam's is weird anominally you're this like unique 4517 04:41:28.919 --> 04:41:31.880 and remarkable evil. You know, we talked about the reason 4518 04:41:31.919 --> 04:41:34.840 I raised this with Cito, you know Scato, so all 4519 04:41:34.840 --> 04:41:37.759 these days a treaty, the organization, the nineteen fifty four 4520 04:41:39.360 --> 04:41:45.439 Dual Accords of Korea and into China, and the Truman doctrine, 4521 04:41:45.840 --> 04:41:49.560 like this was entirely congruous with US policy after after 4522 04:41:49.599 --> 04:41:52.560 the Second World War, like the cost of waiting a 4523 04:41:52.560 --> 04:41:56.840 Second World War, among other things, was when these primitive 4524 04:41:57.360 --> 04:41:59.959 as hell third world nations, which of those the true 4525 04:42:00.080 --> 04:42:03.080 were primitive, like people living in huts, when they come 4526 04:42:03.159 --> 04:42:06.520 unto assault by ivan, you go defend them, and your 4527 04:42:06.639 --> 04:42:09.560 kids go defend them, and your tax dollars go defend them, 4528 04:42:09.919 --> 04:42:12.240 and you lose those things. I mean that this was 4529 04:42:12.360 --> 04:42:16.000 very well understood. You know. That was the Cold War 4530 04:42:17.479 --> 04:42:22.319 that came to an end, in part because Watchington realized 4531 04:42:22.360 --> 04:42:24.720 it wasn't tenable. Part was the revolution and military affairs, 4532 04:42:25.119 --> 04:42:28.279 but part of it was just it took. It took 4533 04:42:28.400 --> 04:42:32.599 thirty years for the damage brought by World War Two 4534 04:42:32.680 --> 04:42:35.520 to be repaired and for these states like Korea to 4535 04:42:35.639 --> 04:42:39.919 be built into like functional client states with a comic 4536 04:42:39.959 --> 04:42:44.319 capability of their own. I mean, that's you know, I 4537 04:42:44.360 --> 04:42:46.880 don't want to see what America could have done within 4538 04:42:46.959 --> 04:42:50.319 the I'm not I don't think World War two gymen fought, obviously, 4539 04:42:50.479 --> 04:42:55.040 but within the power of rationality if I'm if I'm Kennedy, 4540 04:42:55.240 --> 04:42:59.799 or if I'm macnamara, or if I'm Nixon in sixteen, 4541 04:43:00.040 --> 04:43:03.200 in February sixty nineteen to the office, like one of 4542 04:43:03.240 --> 04:43:05.279 my doing sell these days to say, Okay, the Truman 4543 04:43:05.360 --> 04:43:09.119 doctrine's off, the Cold War's off. We're not gonna defend Vietnam. 4544 04:43:09.279 --> 04:43:12.520 We're not not pre commitments. You know, we may not 4545 04:43:12.639 --> 04:43:16.119 even defend West Berlin. I don't know. Because war is 4546 04:43:16.159 --> 04:43:18.200 bad and just people don't like it and it's messy 4547 04:43:18.240 --> 04:43:20.279 and people die. I mean, like what is the other 4548 04:43:20.279 --> 04:43:22.720 people that should have been done? You know, I mean 4549 04:43:23.799 --> 04:43:27.360 that's arguably that's why it was incredibly it's side of 4550 04:43:27.400 --> 04:43:29.560 the fact, don't genocide your own civilization. And it was 4551 04:43:29.599 --> 04:43:32.560 incredibly stupid to wage World War two because this was 4552 04:43:32.599 --> 04:43:35.520 the result, you know. I mean, Okay, well now you 4553 04:43:35.599 --> 04:43:38.159 get no not now you get to fight ivan for 4554 04:43:38.240 --> 04:43:41.119 the rest of the planet. I mean, you know, and 4555 04:43:41.240 --> 04:43:46.639 that's what happened. So this was like nobody really explained 4556 04:43:46.639 --> 04:43:49.400 to me. It's like it was good to wouldcinerate, you know, 4557 04:43:50.840 --> 04:43:52.560 it was good to would cinerate you know, one hundred 4558 04:43:52.560 --> 04:43:55.159 and many thousand people at Dresden. But the most evil 4559 04:43:55.240 --> 04:43:57.880 thing ever was other than you know, the quote unte 4560 04:43:57.919 --> 04:44:01.919 Holocaust was like blowing away like Vietnamese villagers at MELI. 4561 04:44:02.520 --> 04:44:05.279 I'm not trying to be flipping because that's that's fucking horrible, Okay, 4562 04:44:05.400 --> 04:44:07.919 Like both those things are horrible, but nobody can tell me, 4563 04:44:08.040 --> 04:44:10.319 like why the ladder is like, you know, the Day 4564 04:44:10.360 --> 04:44:12.520 of Miracle lost its innocence, but the form was just 4565 04:44:12.680 --> 04:44:15.240 like something that like had to be done, you know, 4566 04:44:15.360 --> 04:44:18.720 like it doesn't There's a lot of dishonesty about Vietnam. 4567 04:44:19.599 --> 04:44:20.720 You know. It's kind of like it's kind of like 4568 04:44:20.759 --> 04:44:23.400 the dishonesty of World War two and reverse, you know, 4569 04:44:23.560 --> 04:44:27.040 like and this is faded because it's fad of misterical memory, 4570 04:44:27.159 --> 04:44:30.000 but I mean you remember because you're a little, just 4571 04:44:30.040 --> 04:44:33.439 a little than me. Like Vietnam is presented as like 4572 04:44:33.680 --> 04:44:36.439 the worst war ever waged for like reasons no one 4573 04:44:36.439 --> 04:44:41.360 can particulate, you know, like why like yeah, and the 4574 04:44:41.680 --> 04:44:45.959 whole thing was very was very very cynical and ideologically German. 4575 04:44:46.080 --> 04:44:52.080 But yeah, well, is that because everything after Nuremberg has 4576 04:44:52.159 --> 04:44:55.880 to have a moral component to it. Yeah, if you have, 4577 04:44:56.159 --> 04:45:00.560 if you apply to a moral component to anything, then 4578 04:45:01.759 --> 04:45:04.599 if you start with the morality it's a good war, 4579 04:45:05.119 --> 04:45:09.040 it's a bad war, then you can I mean, you're 4580 04:45:09.080 --> 04:45:14.680 basically pulling at the heartstrings of Middle America, of Protestant America, 4581 04:45:14.799 --> 04:45:19.520 church going America and around like the dog of course. 4582 04:45:19.599 --> 04:45:21.479 But at my point is it was arbitrary, you know, 4583 04:45:21.560 --> 04:45:24.400 and it's like the like it was, I realized why 4584 04:45:24.479 --> 04:45:26.720 people were doing this, and I realized why this Fifth 4585 04:45:26.799 --> 04:45:30.119 Column developed the way it did and why they focused 4586 04:45:30.159 --> 04:45:32.799 on Vietnam. But in absolute terms, like this doesn't make 4587 04:45:32.799 --> 04:45:35.040 any sense, you know, and like I said, Vietnam is 4588 04:45:35.080 --> 04:45:40.360 exceptionalized like people, you know, the narrative presented by you know, 4589 04:45:40.400 --> 04:45:42.959 people that are on COVID, people like Oliver Stone, you know, 4590 04:45:43.080 --> 04:45:45.919 people in the era like Abbie Hoffman was that this 4591 04:45:46.040 --> 04:45:49.040 is like kind of conspiratorial design. It's like, look, man, 4592 04:45:49.200 --> 04:45:52.319 like the human doctrine is very clear, like America deployed 4593 04:45:52.360 --> 04:45:55.959 and pretty much exactly the same way in in Korea 4594 04:45:56.360 --> 04:46:01.840 and the Dominican Republic in sixty five in Bolivia, a 4595 04:46:01.959 --> 04:46:07.439 rundown Shagwavara decades later in Nicaragua, and I'll sell it 4596 04:46:07.479 --> 04:46:10.639 to or although obviously those weren't you know, those weren't 4597 04:46:10.639 --> 04:46:14.520 deep employments. Like it's not like America abiding the Truman 4598 04:46:14.639 --> 04:46:18.200 doctrine and you know, realizing I had to fight it 4599 04:46:18.279 --> 04:46:23.319 still be a client regime to maintain credibility. I missed 4600 04:46:23.439 --> 04:46:27.040 uh as as as the error strategic parody was imminent 4601 04:46:27.159 --> 04:46:29.240 like that it's not something weird thing like hard to 4602 04:46:29.639 --> 04:46:32.880 like difficult to decipher, like I you know, and again 4603 04:46:32.959 --> 04:46:36.560 like nobody explained to me why like why why Like 4604 04:46:37.200 --> 04:46:41.319 annihilating Europe uh and sarificing your son is like I'm 4605 04:46:41.959 --> 04:46:45.919 on Guadalcanal is like awesome, but you know, like losing 4606 04:46:45.959 --> 04:46:48.040 your son and I had drank or q son is 4607 04:46:48.119 --> 04:46:51.279 like this great evil like when America lost its innocence. 4608 04:46:51.720 --> 04:46:55.479 Like it's just it's just it's just stupid, and you 4609 04:46:55.560 --> 04:46:56.919 know it's and it's beyond stupid. 4610 04:46:56.959 --> 04:47:03.080 It's you know, well they just said that it it 4611 04:47:03.279 --> 04:47:08.720 just really became a a trope that it this wasn't 4612 04:47:08.799 --> 04:47:11.080 the war to fight, that there was nothing good about 4613 04:47:11.119 --> 04:47:15.520 this War sixty eight. You know, even Cronkite is saying 4614 04:47:15.639 --> 04:47:16.799 that the war can't be won. 4615 04:47:17.599 --> 04:47:19.720 Well yeah, and again too, like imagine, I mean there 4616 04:47:19.759 --> 04:47:23.319 were but think about this, like imagine in nineteen forty three. 4617 04:47:23.439 --> 04:47:26.759 Imagine after you know what, the United the USR didn't 4618 04:47:26.799 --> 04:47:29.880 meet the Wehrmachten combat until forty three, and they got 4619 04:47:29.919 --> 04:47:33.400 their asses kicked the casserine pass. Like imagine if Walter 4620 04:47:33.520 --> 04:47:36.439 Winschall had gone on the radio and said, mister Roosevelt's 4621 04:47:36.439 --> 04:47:39.080 a liar, World War two can't be one. You know, 4622 04:47:39.560 --> 04:47:42.680 victory of the access is imminent. Like dude would have 4623 04:47:42.720 --> 04:47:45.759 been arrested, have not disappeared, you know what I mean. 4624 04:47:45.959 --> 04:47:48.360 Like it's it's it's it's a joke. But you can't 4625 04:47:48.400 --> 04:47:50.560 make this up, you know, like the my actics was 4626 04:47:50.599 --> 04:47:54.360 just some like normal occurrence or just like sound journalism. 4627 04:47:54.959 --> 04:47:58.439 And again, I mean Americans did this weird idea. Like 4628 04:47:58.520 --> 04:48:01.360 I said, the two kind of most puzzling myss to 4629 04:48:01.400 --> 04:48:04.319 me because it's otherwise like intelligent people you know, who 4630 04:48:04.439 --> 04:48:08.400 present this these things I'm about to raise. You know, 4631 04:48:08.479 --> 04:48:11.080 it's not just like dumb people who were creating worldships. 4632 04:48:11.080 --> 04:48:13.360 They've heard It's like the guys who say with Michael 4633 04:48:13.400 --> 04:48:15.680 Savage did I mean Savage isn't smart, but the arts 4634 04:48:15.720 --> 04:48:17.520 marketing to say it is like, oh, America was like 4635 04:48:17.560 --> 04:48:19.959 just pusty footing around in Vietnam and we killed them 4636 04:48:20.040 --> 04:48:21.959 like three million people and it was literally like a 4637 04:48:22.000 --> 04:48:24.720 fucking scalpont. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not like saying that butt 4638 04:48:24.720 --> 04:48:27.200 shade on on on the Vietnam Army. I've got a 4639 04:48:27.240 --> 04:48:31.159 lot of respect for them guys and I but the 4640 04:48:31.279 --> 04:48:33.319 but I mean, look, man, it's real, like we we 4641 04:48:33.479 --> 04:48:35.799 killed a fucking huge amount of those people and we 4642 04:48:35.919 --> 04:48:39.240 were being like we were we were being like we're 4643 04:48:39.400 --> 04:48:41.680 doing like cowboys shit around. It's you know, like so 4644 04:48:41.759 --> 04:48:44.360 it's like, don't pretend that, like, you know, don't pretend 4645 04:48:44.400 --> 04:48:47.479 like killing millions of these fucking people with like firepower 4646 04:48:47.520 --> 04:48:50.159 with that was purpose to fight the Soviet Union, like 4647 04:48:50.279 --> 04:48:52.799 it was like something like low key thing that was 4648 04:48:52.880 --> 04:48:57.360 like not not real war. But also the like when 4649 04:48:57.400 --> 04:49:00.560 people claim like Vietnam it was just like a stupid war, 4650 04:49:00.720 --> 04:49:02.520 it's like, look, I mean, like I said, part ways 4651 04:49:02.560 --> 04:49:04.759 the mirror stand on this. You know, like you don't 4652 04:49:06.720 --> 04:49:08.560 you know, you don't fight you didn't fight wars in 4653 04:49:08.680 --> 04:49:12.159 nineteen sixty eight, you know, to like access to like 4654 04:49:12.279 --> 04:49:15.279 more like grain reserves, you know, or like you know, 4655 04:49:15.400 --> 04:49:18.200 control the ability to like you know, ship like silk 4656 04:49:18.240 --> 04:49:19.759 out of out of out of out of the fucking 4657 04:49:20.000 --> 04:49:22.959 you know, out of China, back to back to Europe 4658 04:49:23.040 --> 04:49:26.200 or something. You know, Like it didn't matter where Vietnam was. 4659 04:49:26.520 --> 04:49:28.279 You know, that's where the line is, say, was drawn. 4660 04:49:28.360 --> 04:49:30.919 That's where the Reds pushed, you know, and if you're 4661 04:49:30.919 --> 04:49:33.159 gonna if you're gonna win the Cold War, like wherever 4662 04:49:33.200 --> 04:49:36.080 the Reds push. It might be Bolivia, it might be Iran, 4663 04:49:36.240 --> 04:49:38.840 it might be Vietnam, it might be Angola, like it 4664 04:49:38.919 --> 04:49:41.279 might be it might be West Berlin. Like that's where 4665 04:49:41.319 --> 04:49:43.759 you fight them. You know, Like the issue is like 4666 04:49:44.000 --> 04:49:49.000 who's gonna you know, the color was fought in every 4667 04:49:49.360 --> 04:49:54.200 in every aspect of conceptual political life, you know, like economically, 4668 04:49:54.520 --> 04:49:59.200 like culturally, like technologically and militarily you know, you know, 4669 04:49:59.400 --> 04:50:01.200 you can like pick and choose like where you fight, 4670 04:50:01.720 --> 04:50:03.479 you know, and that's and plus like wars like a 4671 04:50:03.720 --> 04:50:06.360 like we talked about war rihves like the seasons. I mean, 4672 04:50:06.439 --> 04:50:09.919 that's that's the problem with clouds, of which is victims 4673 04:50:10.000 --> 04:50:12.680 like taking the kind of this sort of like like 4674 04:50:13.080 --> 04:50:16.000 like logical extreme it becomes a g irrational like you 4675 04:50:16.080 --> 04:50:17.799 not like you don't just like go to war like 4676 04:50:18.000 --> 04:50:21.040 affect like policy ambitions by other means, you know, like 4677 04:50:21.119 --> 04:50:24.080 war rives like the seasons, and there's about irrationality to 4678 04:50:24.159 --> 04:50:27.240 warfare absolutely and warf is a rational process the way 4679 04:50:27.279 --> 04:50:29.840 it's fought. But like you don't just go to war 4680 04:50:29.959 --> 04:50:33.080 because it's like I you know, I can't. I don't 4681 04:50:33.119 --> 04:50:35.159 like I don't like the trade arraignments that of country. 4682 04:50:35.240 --> 04:50:37.880 Why I know I'm gonna launch a massive assault on 4683 04:50:38.000 --> 04:50:41.840 them like that. That's that's not how things work. And 4684 04:50:42.080 --> 04:50:46.040 that I said, like I want to sell you my house. 4685 04:50:46.959 --> 04:50:48.560 Maybe if I go to your house and like beat 4686 04:50:48.599 --> 04:50:50.279 the ship out of you, like that'll help me like 4687 04:50:50.319 --> 04:50:53.840 get a better deal. I mean it's like not, that's 4688 04:50:53.840 --> 04:50:55.919 not how people think, you know, Like that's that's not 4689 04:50:56.119 --> 04:50:58.360 like things are done, you know, like and it's not 4690 04:50:59.000 --> 04:51:01.720 I realized that's like sounds but you know, the uh, 4691 04:51:02.360 --> 04:51:04.200 you know, this is a very important point. And that's 4692 04:51:04.240 --> 04:51:06.799 one of the things that's why as that race sorel 4693 04:51:07.599 --> 04:51:09.880 It's not just because I mean, like ideas an aesthetics 4694 04:51:09.959 --> 04:51:11.959 and things in the way like people view like labor 4695 04:51:12.080 --> 04:51:17.080 and the way identitarian things in political life. I mean, 4696 04:51:17.080 --> 04:51:18.919 he deals with those things in intelligent ways, that is 4697 04:51:19.319 --> 04:51:22.919 to people like us. But it's like ontological view of 4698 04:51:23.000 --> 04:51:25.599 like conflict, Like this is something that happens, like it's 4699 04:51:25.639 --> 04:51:28.119 not this rational thing. It arrives like it's like why 4700 04:51:28.200 --> 04:51:31.439 you find like a girl attractive. It's like why. It's 4701 04:51:31.560 --> 04:51:34.720 like why, it's like why certain symbols like take root, 4702 04:51:34.840 --> 04:51:37.119 like during cultural epox It's like it's it's like why 4703 04:51:37.240 --> 04:51:40.000 winter comes. Where at war? Now, you know, war arrives. 4704 04:51:40.400 --> 04:51:45.200 I mean that I realize that was a bit far afield. Yeah, 4705 04:51:45.319 --> 04:51:48.000 I think that's important. I mean, in none doesn't regards 4706 04:51:48.000 --> 04:51:50.759 to Vietnam, but in the case of Vietnam, it's particularly 4707 04:51:50.880 --> 04:51:53.200 kind of like neglected that you know, Yeah, we'll go ahead. 4708 04:51:53.240 --> 04:51:57.639 I'm sorry, Oh, no problem. Well we're coming up on 4709 04:51:57.720 --> 04:51:59.919 the hour, so let me end with this, because I 4710 04:52:00.040 --> 04:52:01.759 know you could probably go on a little bit about this. 4711 04:52:03.200 --> 04:52:07.680 The common trope even till today, is that the United 4712 04:52:07.759 --> 04:52:12.919 States lost the Vietnam War. What what is your opinion 4713 04:52:12.959 --> 04:52:15.759 when you hear somebody say that, what thoughts come into 4714 04:52:15.799 --> 04:52:16.119 your mind? 4715 04:52:17.279 --> 04:52:20.240 I mean, I agree with John Paul Van. For those 4716 04:52:20.279 --> 04:52:23.639 who don't know, Van was a really interesting guy and 4717 04:52:23.680 --> 04:52:26.400 a very troubled guy. He he had kind of like 4718 04:52:26.439 --> 04:52:30.840 a horrible upbringing, like mom was literally like an alcoholic prostitute, 4719 04:52:31.000 --> 04:52:35.439 like didn't know his father. Joins the Army Air Corps, 4720 04:52:36.319 --> 04:52:39.799 gets train as a pilot. World War Two ends before 4721 04:52:39.799 --> 04:52:45.400 he sees action. When the Air Force man an independent service, 4722 04:52:46.000 --> 04:52:47.479 he wanted to stay in the Army, so he became 4723 04:52:47.479 --> 04:52:53.360 an infantry officer. Long story short. He commanded a company 4724 04:52:54.439 --> 04:52:58.560 and then a ranger battalion in Korea, and David Hackworth, 4725 04:52:58.599 --> 04:53:00.880 the young David hacker was under his command, and Van 4726 04:53:01.000 --> 04:53:05.479 became as like whole badass. Okay, he had problems with alcohol, 4727 04:53:05.599 --> 04:53:07.520 He got into shit with an underage girl. I mean, 4728 04:53:07.720 --> 04:53:10.159 typical like warrior type. It was his own worst enemy, 4729 04:53:10.240 --> 04:53:14.319 but like a really brilliant soldier. And when he left 4730 04:53:14.360 --> 04:53:17.720 the service he was one of the before his last 4731 04:53:17.799 --> 04:53:22.479 kind of role in the uniform, he's one of the 4732 04:53:22.560 --> 04:53:26.720 first guys deployed the mcavee Okay militarysisans comand Vietnam in 4733 04:53:26.799 --> 04:53:31.599 nineteen sixty two. And the reasoning there that we talked about, 4734 04:53:31.639 --> 04:53:35.360 there's more much a Special Forces war, you know, counterinsurgency 4735 04:53:35.520 --> 04:53:44.119 direct action, identifying cadres and eliminating them. Okay, sixty four. 4736 04:53:45.400 --> 04:53:50.919 After two years at MCVEE, Colonel Van retires. He becomes 4737 04:53:50.959 --> 04:53:54.880 this independent like defense consultant. Now lo and behold. A 4738 04:53:54.959 --> 04:53:57.720 year later, this like massive build up happens and Van 4739 04:53:57.880 --> 04:54:00.639 is like, what the hell are you doing? And Van 4740 04:54:00.720 --> 04:54:03.080 so lit of these friends in the Pentagon. So he 4741 04:54:03.240 --> 04:54:05.319 was able to get back to Vietnam as a civilian, 4742 04:54:05.439 --> 04:54:09.799 and he ultimately died in nineteen seventy two and in 4743 04:54:09.919 --> 04:54:13.919 a shopper crash. But he Van wrote a book with 4744 04:54:13.919 --> 04:54:17.319 a bright shining why, and this kind of put the 4745 04:54:17.439 --> 04:54:20.599 Vietnam War in perspective for me in terms, and I 4746 04:54:20.680 --> 04:54:22.639 was a kid, and I highly recommend it to anybody. 4747 04:54:23.840 --> 04:54:26.599 Van said, basically what I what I what I say. 4748 04:54:26.720 --> 04:54:28.919 At the outside of this discussion, I was basically borrowing 4749 04:54:29.000 --> 04:54:31.439 from a Van, like, look, you don't like win wars 4750 04:54:31.759 --> 04:54:33.240 wars on a cond of to see like how many 4751 04:54:33.319 --> 04:54:35.319 people you can kill? You know, you don't like win 4752 04:54:35.360 --> 04:54:37.599 a war by like racking up the biggest body counts 4753 04:54:37.799 --> 04:54:41.439 or by winning all the battles. You know, you win 4754 04:54:41.560 --> 04:54:48.680 wars by by annihilating the man's ability to fight, you know, 4755 04:54:48.759 --> 04:54:51.360 but it's strung as infrastructure and his you know, and 4756 04:54:51.479 --> 04:54:55.360 his ability to reconstitute and continted to wage war and 4757 04:54:55.439 --> 04:54:57.840 by breaking his political will to wage war in any 4758 04:54:57.919 --> 04:55:01.080 number of ways, and some constellations those things like wins 4759 04:55:01.159 --> 04:55:04.159 the war. So no, America lost the Vietnam War. But 4760 04:55:04.479 --> 04:55:06.919 Americans look at this like a football game or something like, hey, 4761 04:55:06.959 --> 04:55:09.919 we killed more of those people, like okay, great man, 4762 04:55:10.080 --> 04:55:14.279 like the the like again the Merrimont killed something like 4763 04:55:15.080 --> 04:55:17.799 they're they're there. Burn ratio is in like fifteen to one. 4764 04:55:17.880 --> 04:55:20.439 I'm not exaggerating, Okay, I mean does does that mean 4765 04:55:20.560 --> 04:55:22.799 like does I mean that the German right won World 4766 04:55:22.799 --> 04:55:26.040 War two because they killed twenty million Russians? I mean 4767 04:55:26.159 --> 04:55:28.319 at uh, you know, And it's not it's not a 4768 04:55:28.400 --> 04:55:31.080 football game like saying like hey at Aya drying, like 4769 04:55:31.360 --> 04:55:33.680 we kicked more Vietnams. It's like they didn't really win 4770 04:55:33.959 --> 04:55:39.959 or like whatever Westmoreland's cope was it? You know, the 4771 04:55:40.159 --> 04:55:43.400 uh and and Van was absolutely right. The problem with 4772 04:55:43.439 --> 04:55:46.720 America is that it set the firepower. That's something that 4773 04:55:46.799 --> 04:55:50.919 America borrowed from the German General Staff of old. But 4774 04:55:51.200 --> 04:55:56.080 with kind of without the kind of uh tactical flexibility 4775 04:55:56.119 --> 04:55:58.680 and intelligence of the German General staff. It's like the 4776 04:55:58.720 --> 04:56:02.119 American notion is that fire power solves all problems. It 4777 04:56:02.200 --> 04:56:04.439 doesn't matter what it is. If you're throw in a 4778 04:56:04.479 --> 04:56:06.840 firepower at it's gonna be defeated. Nothing can stand up 4779 04:56:06.880 --> 04:56:11.119 to American combined arms. That's not true. I mean, yeah, 4780 04:56:11.119 --> 04:56:13.599 I guess there's no if you if you throw it 4781 04:56:13.680 --> 04:56:15.919 a firepower at Vietnam, you would continue to kill two 4782 04:56:16.000 --> 04:56:18.319 numbers of people. They could probably turn it into like 4783 04:56:18.360 --> 04:56:22.119 a non functional country. I mean, especially had one resorted 4784 04:56:22.159 --> 04:56:26.159 to nuclear and biological weapons. But that's not You don't 4785 04:56:26.159 --> 04:56:30.919 wage war to just annihilate countries, you know. That's why 4786 04:56:30.959 --> 04:56:34.479 the Carthaginian peace has become like this mythological thing. I mean, 4787 04:56:34.520 --> 04:56:37.599 I assume I'm not in general, but I do know something. 4788 04:56:38.279 --> 04:56:43.279 So no, I mean America, America lost the Vietnam War 4789 04:56:43.479 --> 04:56:47.639 because it it was I mean again too, it's like, 4790 04:56:47.680 --> 04:56:51.200 what's your victory metric? I mean, like the minute, the minute, 4791 04:56:52.040 --> 04:56:55.240 the minute those guys, those little yellow guys with with 4792 04:56:55.479 --> 04:56:59.400 red stars on their pith helmets were running into Saigon 4793 04:56:59.599 --> 04:57:02.240 with their with They're clashing the costs. They look too 4794 04:57:02.240 --> 04:57:04.000 big for him. And these guys are running. They were 4795 04:57:04.240 --> 04:57:06.479 they were double timing. These guys have been more at 4796 04:57:06.479 --> 04:57:09.479 war for thirty years. Think about that. I mean that 4797 04:57:10.040 --> 04:57:12.680 that's when that's when the hand only won that war. Okay, 4798 04:57:12.799 --> 04:57:19.520 I mean so the uh the you know, I I 4799 04:57:19.799 --> 04:57:21.080 look at that, and then if you look at them 4800 04:57:21.080 --> 04:57:23.040 when I say that, because again, they got it's like 4801 04:57:23.119 --> 04:57:25.880 some pride thing or something like like I'm making fun 4802 04:57:25.919 --> 04:57:28.400 of their favorite football team or something, you know, And 4803 04:57:28.479 --> 04:57:29.919 like I said, I've got I've got all. I've got 4804 04:57:30.040 --> 04:57:32.200 huge respects for the Vietnam Army. Not just that's like 4805 04:57:32.240 --> 04:57:35.479 my dad's generation, but they're like fascinating guys and like 4806 04:57:36.279 --> 04:57:38.360 that's when the US Army was, Yeah, it's best. And 4807 04:57:38.439 --> 04:57:40.439 plus it was was like cool you had like that 4808 04:57:40.560 --> 04:57:44.040 was the only time like you had like weird in 4809 04:57:44.119 --> 04:57:45.959 the army too. You had like weird like long hair 4810 04:57:46.080 --> 04:57:50.319 eyes and like and like weird rednecky guys like like 4811 04:57:50.840 --> 04:57:53.919 like crazy ass like like dude like huge afros, like 4812 04:57:54.040 --> 04:57:56.759 fucking I'm like being silly, but like not you know, 4813 04:57:56.840 --> 04:57:59.799 I'm like I really play about a trope. But I 4814 04:58:00.040 --> 04:58:01.959 I'm the last person who's going to say anything nasty 4815 04:58:02.000 --> 04:58:04.720 about the Vietnam Army, like those guys are like the best. 4816 04:58:05.880 --> 04:58:08.279 They were like legit, like what was cool about America? 4817 04:58:08.520 --> 04:58:12.639 Like legit, you know, but going around saying and it 4818 04:58:12.720 --> 04:58:14.919 wasn't and it wasn't their fault, like they those guys 4819 04:58:14.959 --> 04:58:18.599 that those guys fucked splindily like they performed very very well. 4820 04:58:19.720 --> 04:58:23.000 But uh no, Marya, absolutely not when the Vietnam War. 4821 04:58:25.880 --> 04:58:29.959 No, all right, well let's end it there. Thomas, please 4822 04:58:30.040 --> 04:58:32.520 give your plugs and uh yep. 4823 04:58:32.959 --> 04:58:36.000 Yeah, man. You can find me on substack, which is 4824 04:58:36.119 --> 04:58:39.479 kind of like my permanent home. It's real Thomas seven 4825 04:58:39.560 --> 04:58:43.040 seven seven dot substack dot com. I beag on Twitter again, 4826 04:58:43.599 --> 04:58:45.959 but I get, I get. I get fucking nude from 4827 04:58:46.000 --> 04:58:47.959 there like all the time. But I mean, if you 4828 04:58:48.000 --> 04:58:50.119 look for me, like, you'll find me there, but it's 4829 04:58:50.799 --> 04:58:52.799 don't be like sad. If like you look for me 4830 04:58:52.840 --> 04:58:54.439 and I'm gone and I literally get banned from there 4831 04:58:54.520 --> 04:59:01.119 like every like several weeks. I'm at uh real Capital 4832 04:59:01.439 --> 04:59:05.639 r e A L underscore Thomas seven seven seven on Twitter. 4833 04:59:07.279 --> 04:59:09.520 I am launching my YouTube channel man like, and I 4834 04:59:09.599 --> 04:59:14.880 talked to my long suffering editor and like production guy 4835 04:59:15.159 --> 04:59:18.520 and he's ready to go. So this weekend, I gotta 4836 04:59:18.560 --> 04:59:20.919 record more with mister Pete here, and I've got to 4837 04:59:20.959 --> 04:59:24.119 record my own pod and I got to record uh 4838 04:59:25.040 --> 04:59:27.479 with a couple of dear friends of mine for the 4839 04:59:27.959 --> 04:59:30.720 channel content that's gonna go to my editor and then 4840 04:59:30.720 --> 04:59:33.720 that's gonna launch. So you can find my channel at 4841 04:59:33.759 --> 04:59:39.560 Thomas TV on YouTube. I'll uh, I link it on 4842 04:59:39.639 --> 04:59:41.599 my on my substack and I link it on my 4843 04:59:41.680 --> 04:59:43.720 Twitter if you can't find it, but there's nothing there yet, 4844 04:59:43.759 --> 04:59:45.840 but there will be in like a week. Yeah, like 4845 04:59:45.919 --> 04:59:48.000 like literally in a week, like right around the first 4846 04:59:48.080 --> 04:59:51.319 of right on the first week and during the first 4847 04:59:51.360 --> 04:59:53.959 week in February. That's what I got. Oh and my 4848 04:59:54.200 --> 04:59:56.720 my second book in my steel Storm series just drop. 4849 04:59:56.959 --> 04:59:59.959 You should get that at Imperium Press. It's imperium press 4850 05:00:00.040 --> 05:00:02.479 dot org. The book is steel Storm two. It's the 4851 05:00:02.560 --> 05:00:07.720 second one of five. It's it's uh it's Frank Herbert 4852 05:00:07.759 --> 05:00:12.119 style science fiction. And I think, uh, I've gotten over 4853 05:00:12.159 --> 05:00:15.080 wrongly positive feedback on it. I wouldn't keep writing them. 4854 05:00:15.680 --> 05:00:18.439 So yeah, and thank you for that, everybody, and really, 4855 05:00:18.520 --> 05:00:20.680 really really I'm honored by that. But yeah, that's all 4856 05:00:20.680 --> 05:00:21.159 I got, man,