WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:09.839 Oh bot, it's show tied. People say, good money to 2 00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:10.599 see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.560 When they go out to a theater, they want clod sodas, 4 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:15.960 hot popcorn, and no monsters. 5 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:17.480 In the Protection Booth. 6 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.199 Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. 7 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:43.359 Cut it off. It was an ordinary flight turned extraordinary 8 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:47.039 when a man in black registered as DBE Cooper made 9 00:00:47.079 --> 00:00:47.439 a bomb. 10 00:00:47.679 --> 00:01:03.399 Right, can you hear me on the headphone? Oh yeah, 11 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:09.319 okay good. It was the dB Cooper case that changed 12 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:13.560 my life. I thought, that's the way to do a score. 13 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:18.239 If don't panic, do what I say and follow my instructions. 14 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:21.920 I don't know that they've got five sharpshooters by me. 15 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:28.120 I went through my mind, we can jump in. I 16 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:31.519 didn't feel the air going through my fingers, and I 17 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:42.280 was thinking, boy, this is balls. That car took off 18 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:45.280 for that airplane, and it was very very clear to 19 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:48.760 all of us there it's going to crash into that planet. 20 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:54.000 Martin McNally meets another skyjacker, Characrat. 21 00:01:54.120 --> 00:02:07.799 Nowos evil cut Let's get to hell out of here. 22 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:13.919 Hey, folks, welcome to a special episode of the Projection Booth. 23 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:16.400 I'm your host, Mike White. On this episode, I'm talking 24 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:19.000 with Eli Chorus. He is the co writer and co 25 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:23.240 director of the new documentary American Skyjacker, and we are 26 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:27.360 also joined by Martin mack McNally, who is the subject 27 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:31.000 of the film. Pretty interesting talking with the actual subject 28 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:33.919 of the documentary, and he's a hometown boy who grew 29 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:36.759 up in the same area of Michigan that I did 30 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:39.439 as well. Thanks so much for listening, and I hope 31 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:42.360 you enjoyed the interview. Eli, Can you tell me a 32 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.479 little bit about yourself and how you got into filmmaking. 33 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.280 I was born and raised in Austin, Texas. My father 34 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:53.520 was a director cinematographer base out of Austin originally, but 35 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:55.840 would come out to LA and work. He did mainly 36 00:02:55.879 --> 00:03:00.000 commercials and music videos for Willie Nelson and Stevie ray 37 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:02.639 On in the seventies and eighties, but was also the 38 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:06.680 DP on Texas Chainsaw Mascer two with Toby Hooper and 39 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:09.960 worked on a number of other fun, little cult films 40 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.879 for about twenty or thirty years when he was doing that, 41 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:14.800 and so I grew up on set, so it was 42 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:18.639 always in my blood. I started writing pretty young age, 43 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:23.000 went to school in Boston for writing and publishing, but 44 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:24.400 always knowing how it was going to come out here 45 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:29.039 and do filmmaking, and then started in Los Angeles in 46 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:31.919 two thousand and four working at some studios Fox Television students, 47 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:35.400 originally learning how to pitch, and then it was friends 48 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.520 with Josh Schaeffer from college. He was my roommate and 49 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.680 we started writing together. Quickly moved out she can't write 50 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:45.039 together and live together. And sold our first script in 51 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:47.680 twenty ten, sold a script a year between twenty ten 52 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:50.879 and twenty sixteen, all television dramas. For the most part, 53 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:53.719 we're doing some rewrites on things, and then twenty seventeen 54 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:55.960 we'd sold a bunch of scripts, none of them been made, 55 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:57.960 and we decided that we wanted to start our own 56 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:00.199 production company and had some capital to do it. We 57 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:02.240 actually wanted to make some of these things as opposed 58 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:04.400 to just sell stacks of paper to about five thousand 59 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:05.560 industry professionals. 60 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:07.360 Started doing that. 61 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.159 The first thing we made was a short version of 62 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:13.800 a feature that we'd written called Nothing Man, and we 63 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.079 cast a up and coming actor named Coleman Domingo in it, 64 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:21.360 and he starred in the short that set up the 65 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:23.720 whole film that we're hoping to get made in the 66 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:26.319 next few years, honestly, but that was a great sort 67 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:29.000 of first foray into filmmaking, the first thing we directed, 68 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:32.000 and then we produced a handful of other projects. And 69 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:34.800 then in twenty nineteen, while we were looking to adapt 70 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:39.439 articles into screenplays that we could sell and then make ourselves, 71 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:43.360 we came across Danny Wisontowski's Riverfront Times article the Final 72 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:48.439 Flight of Martin McNally, which began this very long and 73 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:54.120 amazing process. As we started to adapt that article into 74 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:57.319 a script, which is obviously a very long process that 75 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:01.160 sometimes doesn't even come to fruition, he said to us, 76 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:03.560 you should go talk to Mac. He is alive and 77 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.639 well in Saint Louis, And just for posterity's sake, I 78 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:08.079 was like, we shoul just go get this guy on tape. 79 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.399 We should shoot this, And we went there for four 80 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.360 days and shot much of the interview in the film 81 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:18.079 while we were there, and suddenly realized we had a documentary. 82 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:18.199 On our hands. 83 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:20.680 Were trying to sell it as a documentary, and we 84 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:23.600 walked into the Imperative Entertainment offices and they said, we're 85 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:27.480 starting a podcast division. The idea being we make a podcast, 86 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.319 we build an audience and then we go out and 87 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.040 we do a version of that podcast. We've created our 88 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:36.480 own IP at that point, plus they were willing to 89 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:38.560 give us a budget and let us go, which was 90 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:40.680 music to our ears as a creator. There's not a 91 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:42.839 lot of hoops to jump through to go out and 92 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:46.279 tell a story. It was amazing. So we did that 93 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:49.800 in twenty nineteen into twenty twenty, pretty much finished it 94 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:53.000 about three days before the pandemic hit, and then suddenly 95 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.120 found out that we were making podcasts. 96 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:58.240 Now, when I say podcasts. 97 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.920 Too, it was more we lean more rate play than 98 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:05.920 conversational podcast that most podcasts are. So we're doing high 99 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:11.279 end sound design and production and archive and very fine 100 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.439 tuned editing everything about the visuals basically to put the 101 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.639 listener in the story itself. And so we've now done 102 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:21.720 four or five of those, and American Skyjackers our first feature, 103 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:23.800 and there's a lot more to come. 104 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:26.560 You go all the way back to eBaum's World. Did 105 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:27.240 I read that right? 106 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:29.120 You did read that right? You've done your research. I 107 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.879 like it e Bomb's World. So the story about Ebom's World. 108 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:33.399 It was my first job was on a think tank 109 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:36.759 at Fox Television Studios, it's a really unique job. Where 110 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:41.519 After I did an internship, I met a executive who 111 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:42.879 worked at Foxtelligence Studies. 112 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:44.240 So I'm putting a think tank together. 113 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:46.600 I'm putting a bunch of young twenty year olds into 114 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:48.959 a room and give you five hundred bucks a week 115 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:50.680 or something like that, and you come in. You get 116 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:53.480 access to the lot, but we own all your ideas. 117 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.040 So everything you pitch us we own, unless we pass 118 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:57.240 on them then you get them back. 119 00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:59.199 Sounds great, and so I. 120 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:01.560 Started doing that for a while, basically just mining young 121 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:05.079 minds for it was all unscripted content too. You go 122 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:08.199 into a room once a week and you would pitch 123 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:11.839 various ideas you'd come up with, and they would tell 124 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:13.920 you you were an idiot basically for the most part, 125 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:16.079 and it was great. It was like boot camp for pitching. 126 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:17.800 They'd be like, that's terrible, that would never work, and 127 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:19.959 they'll tell you why it wouldn't work. It completely shaped 128 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:23.240 my whole sort of way to tell a story and 129 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:25.279 to put everything together, not in a negative way either. 130 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:26.399 It was very helpful. 131 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:29.160 I pitched an idea in two thousand and five where 132 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:31.319 I said, hey, listen, there's a site called Ebomb's World. 133 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:33.160 What if we did a show around this where we 134 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.160 featured short videos that people made on the internet. And 135 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:39.519 the response I got was nobody's gold be watching short 136 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:42.079 videos on the internet in the future. That's never gonna happen. 137 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:45.279 So they passed on it, and I'd called the guy's 138 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:47.079 to the e Bomb's World to like, say, can we 139 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:47.879 align on this? 140 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:49.480 Go we partner up. Sure, if you get a studio 141 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:50.519 on board, we're good. Let's go. 142 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:52.959 So I called him, I said, they weren't interested, but 143 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:55.399 I still love to work with you. A month later, 144 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:57.639 they called me back and I said, we're being in 145 00:07:57.680 --> 00:07:59.920 all these calls from these other studios. Would you like 146 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:01.519 to still do this? Would you bring it back to 147 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:01.959 the studio? 148 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:02.560 And I said yeah. 149 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:04.360 I walked back in. I said, listen, guys, I quit 150 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:07.000 un let's be going and buy this. They bought it 151 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.519 and we sold it to USA for one episode, and 152 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:10.000 that's a. 153 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:11.839 Whole other story of that time. Therefore, here. 154 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:17.160 Now, miss mcdally, I am so excited to talk with 155 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:20.959 you because I grew up in Riverview, Michigan. So when 156 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:24.240 it flashed that you were from Trenton and that your 157 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:28.240 dad owns the shoe store. Where's Allen Park Ray. It 158 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:32.320 was amazing. I was so excited to just see hometown 159 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:34.039 boy made good as it. 160 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.360 Were, Yes, thank you very much. I grew up in 161 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:43.600 Wyandott went to Saint Patrick's School, Catholic School. I was 162 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:47.639 there until the eleventh grade. First day of the eleventh grade. 163 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.679 Well, how many times have you been approached to tell 164 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:52.639 your story? Was this the first time? 165 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:56.960 Oh no, this wasn't the first time I've been approached. 166 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:04.039 In the nineties, in the twenties, I had a lot 167 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:08.080 of producers coming in wanting to get the rights to 168 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:13.320 my story. All of them, one hundred percent, were willing 169 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.799 to put cash on the table and I rejected all 170 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.480 of them, every one of them. I rejected them. And 171 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:25.559 it wasn't until I got out of prison in twenty ten. 172 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:34.120 And in twenty fourteen, Danny responded to something that happened 173 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:38.399 in Canada with the prison systems up there, and I 174 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:42.840 responded to his response that he gave those people and 175 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:45.960 I said, I know all about security in the United 176 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:49.759 States federal prison system, and he said, I'd like to 177 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:53.279 talk to you about this. He came to my apartment 178 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.919 and he was there for about a half an hour 179 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:01.559 forty five minutes. In the first fifteen minutes, I got 180 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:07.039 his credentials, education, what he was doing in Saint Louis, 181 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:11.840 and what he wanted to do with my story. I 182 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.720 told him that how much money can you put on 183 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:18.039 a table to get the rights to my story? He said, Mac, 184 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:22.080 I can't give you anything. I'm broke. And at that 185 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.960 point there I said, that's a decent answer. I think 186 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:28.919 I may be able to change that situation for you. 187 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:34.360 One thing that I have to have is nothing can 188 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:39.440 be published until I'm dead, a book or whatever movie. 189 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:43.639 You can do nothing until I'm dead. Do you agree? 190 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.279 You said yes. I said you got the rights with 191 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.279 no money up front and so forth. Well, that was 192 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:58.039 in twenty fourteen. In twenty sixteen, Gangland Warrior in Kansas 193 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:03.720 contacted me Jenkins runs It and he said he would 194 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:08.440 like to talk to me about my case. I said, okay. 195 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:12.240 So he came from Kansas to Saint Louis with his 196 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:15.840 partner that he worked with, and we talked for about 197 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.799 eight or nine hours from ten o'clock in the morning 198 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.200 until about six or seven o'clock at night. When he 199 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:26.120 first got there, he said, can I film this I'd 200 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:29.600 like to record it and everything. I said, sure, So 201 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:34.159 I went onto the car pulling all this equipment. He 202 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:39.360 had four cameras set up to record everything. I got 203 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:41.679 an agreement from him that he wouldn't do a movie 204 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.519 on this, he wouldn't write a book about this, but 205 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:49.039 he could post the verbal stuff on his site. He 206 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:54.799 agreed to that, so he did that. Then a couple 207 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.720 of weeks later, Danny came into my apartment he was living. 208 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:02.559 I could see he libt. He was mad, and he 209 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:08.279 got the wind of ganglen Wire and told him, right, Danny, 210 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:11.240 it's not like that. I'm not kicking you to the curb. 211 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:14.360 You got the rights to my story. Those guys that 212 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:16.320 are not going to do a bulk or a mobile 213 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.840 or any of that stuff there, so relax. So he relaxed. 214 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:26.720 But that's it. Producers wanted the story, nobody got it, 215 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:32.200 and Danny was broke. He said, that's okay. I'm not 216 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:36.000 taking any money from anything about my life story. I 217 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:40.919 had opportunities fifty grand, twenty five grand, one hundred grand. No, 218 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:45.759 I'm not taking anything. And I told Danny that anything 219 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:51.639 that arises from what he does through remunerations, he can 220 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:53.879 keep it all, He gets it all. He said, you 221 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.399 don't have to do that, Mac. I said, that's the 222 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:01.240 way I want it. And I'm taking nothing of the credibility. 223 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:05.679 I'm not doing my life story like this. And I 224 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:11.559 got on his to rehabilitate Barbara and her daughter, Barbara Rosser. 225 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:15.399 So what was it like when Eli and Josh appartshoot. 226 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:20.600 Danny approached me and he says, Mac, I would like 227 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:25.519 you to work with Eli in Los Angeles. Producers they 228 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:29.799 want to work on your story. And I says, Danny, 229 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:33.440 do you trust them? He said yes, I trust them. 230 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.279 I says, are you sure? He says, yes, I trust them. 231 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:42.080 This is a big deal, Danny. He says yes. I said, okay, 232 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:46.120 I'll work with him. So I've been working with Eli. 233 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.320 They got the story, they got everything. They can write, 234 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:54.320 do the story, TV series, they can do books, whatever 235 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:56.679 they want to do. That's it. 236 00:13:56.799 --> 00:13:59.200 Eli. It's so fascinating that you do this as a 237 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:04.240 podcast for then a movie. How are you approaching the 238 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:08.679 podcast and the narrative storytelling of that versus transforming this 239 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:09.840 into a documentary? 240 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.799 Fill what's really interesting about podcasts that we learned, at 241 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:16.519 least the way we were telling it was that you 242 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:21.000 can go off on these tangential storylines that are incredibly fascinating, 243 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.440 go down these verbial rabbit holes. 244 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.240 And people will still stay engaged. Because when you're listening 245 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.159 to a storyteller, you're just you're locked into it. When 246 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.960 you're watching something you're cutting constantly, it's easy to become 247 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.399 disengaged for some reason. And I don't know the physical 248 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.399 reasons for that, but that's just something we all experience 249 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:44.039 and know. So the first thing we knew when we 250 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:46.480 were making the adaptation was we had to keep this 251 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:48.519 really tight because it's six and a half hours of 252 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.120 podcast over ten episodes, and I'm biased, but I personally 253 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:53.559 find it all engaging. I think a lot of other 254 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.320 people do too. That's obviously not going to fly as 255 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.159 a documentary. Our initial cut was over two hours, and 256 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:01.919 so we had to obviously pair all that down significantly 257 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:04.639 as well. So thing I left out was that when 258 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.480 we after we shot Max's initial interview and we shot 259 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.159 a few other interviews, when we sold the podcast project, 260 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.559 we continued to shoot interviews, so there was a lot 261 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:15.919 of interviews that were already shot and banked, so we're 262 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.399 just building things around that, and then it was taking 263 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.879 kind of the highlights of the story as we saw it, 264 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.519 the way that's really tell Max's story and keep the 265 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.919 film moving. That we focused on more than anything in 266 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:30.039 the recreations. We've been calling it and maybe we're making 267 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:31.840 this up here, maybe it's not really a thing, maybe 268 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:34.360 it doesn't stick, but we've been calling it an action documentary, 269 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:38.240 which is two genres that haven't ever been slapped together before. 270 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:39.759 And I can't really think of another one, but this 271 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:41.879 feels like one because of how much it moves and 272 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:45.600 because of how much happens in it. And unfortunately there's 273 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:47.480 little things that had to hit the cutting room floor 274 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:50.159 that kind of slowed down that pace. But the goal 275 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:54.440 was really just to tell Max's incredible story with all 276 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.120 the twists and turns, take the audience on a ride, 277 00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.639 but focus on him and see it through his eyes, 278 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:02.799 and end up with him in the third act where 279 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:05.799 he was when we began telling the story and where 280 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:06.320 he is now. 281 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:10.960 The use of the recreations I find fascinating And what 282 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:13.159 was kind of the thinking behind that, and how is 283 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:14.519 the casting of that as well? 284 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:17.759 The casting took a long time, and a lot of 285 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.559 that had to do with the decision to break a rule. 286 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.120 There's a number of rules broken in this the first 287 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.200 one being Mac looking down the barrel of the camera, 288 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:29.200 which I was inspired by the film The Chameleon, which 289 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:33.120 was made in i think twenty twelve twenty thirteen, about 290 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:34.679 the guy who pretended to be the boy from San 291 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:36.639 Antonio who had been kidnapped and everything like that. 292 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:38.039 But when they did that, they had him. 293 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:39.320 Look right down the barrel of the camera, and it 294 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:42.519 was really impactful, at least for me as a viewer, 295 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:44.879 because he was speaking directly to the audience, just speaking 296 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:48.840 directly to you, and so everything that is said means 297 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:50.360 a lot more to you. So that was the first 298 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:53.000 division we made with Mac. The next rule we broke 299 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.559 was we're going to show face this because you can 300 00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:58.960 only do rack focus the hands and things so many times, 301 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.080 and we break that in the second shot of the 302 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:05.400 film where we see the recree actor playing Mac. So 303 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.359 we knew we had to make them, at least especially 304 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:08.880 with Mac, very similar. 305 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:10.079 So casting took a long time. 306 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:12.359 It took four or five months, went through a lot 307 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.079 of people on incredible casting agents. 308 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:15.839 Spark like stuck with. 309 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.039 Us, but just because their friends still they're still friends. 310 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.240 Shockingly after this, they were like, during let's do it again. Okay, 311 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:23.920 but I think it. 312 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:25.680 Was worth at the end of the day, because we 313 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:27.519 didn't want people to be taken out of the scene 314 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:30.799 by preactors who'd looked nothing like the people. 315 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:33.960 Mac, I'm curious for you, how was it for you 316 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:36.240 seeing yourself being portrayed by another person? 317 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:42.000 When I met Logan who played my part in the movie, Yeah, 318 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:44.759 he looked a lot like me, so that was good. 319 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.680 He was a little taller than me, but that was okay. 320 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:51.960 But I enjoyed watching him do the work. I gave 321 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:57.319 him some pointers on what actually was said between me 322 00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:03.279 and my partner Walter Helakowski, and he took that hard 323 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:08.039 and he played that dialogue when he did these scenes. 324 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.920 But he did very well. It was interesting to see 325 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:20.880 him with the other prisoners during the helicopter escape attempt 326 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:26.039 and Mary. That was nice. Yeah, watching that helicopter come 327 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.640 in and he was there going waving his hands. That's 328 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:33.200 what we did, waving our hands at the prison at Marion, 329 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.000 and nothing came in. The helicopter stopped in front of 330 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.319 the prison. Yeah we didn't get out. 331 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:43.559 Yeah, that's quite a scene. Eli, How was that to shoot. 332 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:45.799 That was a definitely unique one. 333 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:49.519 We actually did the helicopter somewhere else, and then we 334 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:53.640 used archive for the helicopter above the prison. The actual 335 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.400 prison was a prison that had been it wasn't being used. 336 00:18:57.519 --> 00:18:59.559 They gave us the whole prison for the day. Ironically, 337 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:02.200 the chief this location in the entire film was the 338 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.160 entire prison we had for the whole day, which I 339 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:05.559 was shocked by because I was like, how am I 340 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:06.039 gonna do this? 341 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:06.960 Especially for the budget. 342 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.000 There is a lot of structure in this where this 343 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:13.480 story is incredible, like there are things that happen in 344 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:15.400 it and they're like, this can't be real. I can't 345 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:19.720 believe this is actually happening, And we recognize that audience 346 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.200 members might tune out because of that. So there's a 347 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.880 structure here where we would go from the recrease storytelling 348 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:30.160 and MAC telling it, which is sort of the hybrid 349 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:35.720 recreate slash documentary, and then we would anchor it all 350 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.680 in actual archives. So when you see these ridiculous things 351 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:40.519 and then you see the picture of the ap of 352 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.799 the car that crashed into the plane, or you hear 353 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:47.119 Walter Cronkite talking about it, it suddenly weighted in reality, 354 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:48.000 and that's. 355 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:51.519 Something we sort of strove to do throughout the entire film. 356 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:54.480 Air travel has changed so much, and I was so 357 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:57.160 glad Eli that you brought in the person to talk 358 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:00.759 about skyjacking, and just like where the airlines and especially 359 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.599 around the whole thing of security and where we were 360 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:06.480 with that. Things have changed so much, especially after nine 361 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:11.480 to eleven. But even just the idea of you Max 362 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:15.480 sitting on a plane and a flight attendant coming over 363 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:19.839 and saying, what's your final destination? That is so foreign 364 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:23.039 to me, such a strange thing to see. And it's 365 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:26.599 weird that it's probably such a minor footnote to your story, 366 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.359 but for me, it's just like they asked you where 367 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:31.759 you were going? You don't have that on your ticket. 368 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:35.440 Is there more than one destination that you can go to? 369 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:36.640 Is this like a bus? 370 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:41.119 As the stewardess was coming down the aisle asking everybody, 371 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:46.400 she was two aisles up, two seats up, and I'm 372 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:50.319 telling you, my mind was a blank, an absolute blank. 373 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.480 Where am I going? Oh my god, I don't know 374 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:55.880 where I'm going. This is going to be embarrassing, and 375 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.839 this is not good because I had a case. They're 376 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:03.799 filled with weapons and everything else. And when she finally 377 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:09.559 got to my seat, I snapped on that, paulsa I'm 378 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:13.839 going to Tulsa. Yeah, but now with a blank for 379 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.960 just a minute and everything. As far as the security goes, 380 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:23.079 there wasn't any security back in those days. And when 381 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:29.160 I pulled my case in June, within sixty days, the 382 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:35.839 FAA ordered the airlines to install metal detectors. They flipped 383 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:41.240 out in Washington at that time. I'm getting on a plane. 384 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:45.319 They said it was a machine gun. I had a pistol, 385 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:49.200 I had a smoke bomb and a JK is a 386 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:55.039 wig and they just flipped out. And that was a 387 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.440 pivotal point for these metal detectors. You gotta install metal 388 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:04.319 detectors in all the airlines. So that's it. Mac. 389 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:05.920 What is it like for you the first time that 390 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.079 you see this movie with an audience. 391 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.759 I saw the movie at my house with the family 392 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:20.839 and I was shot. This is so surreal. It's actual 393 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:26.079 stuff that I was involved in. And I hate to 394 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:30.400 say this, but my sister was shot too. Claire, she's 395 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:33.640 in the movie. She's a star. But she got a 396 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:37.359 little drunk that day and I think she fell asleep. 397 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:42.200 But yeah, That was the first show, and then I 398 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.960 saw it again within a couple of hours and I 399 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:51.640 really enjoyed it then. And I saw it again up 400 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:54.680 north in the Indian River that's about two hundred miles 401 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:59.200