1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:43,399 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:43,119 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:45,359 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 5: We're back for part two of our episode about the 17 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,159 Kathy Thomas and Rebecca DOWSTI solve in the. 18 00:00:53,079 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 3: Colonial Parkway murders. 19 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:56,719 Speaker 5: Bill, did you think we were ever going to get 20 00:00:56,759 --> 00:00:59,119 to a day where we were talking about this? 21 00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:02,119 Speaker 2: Of the days I would say no. I was funny. 22 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:05,000 I was smiling listening to you. To the intro. You said, 23 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:06,640 we're coming back for a part two, and I thought 24 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,120 to myself, and this would be part two of seventeen parts. 25 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 5: This is going to be a very long series of 26 00:01:14,599 --> 00:01:17,599 episodes that, honestly, I don't think anybody's gonna mind. 27 00:01:18,079 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: I hope not funny. When we were recording our previous episode, 28 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,760 I was thinking to myself and I'm putting out questions 29 00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:26,920 that are I think we're going to create more questions 30 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,400 in people's minds, which is not my goal. The truth is, 31 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,840 there's still so much that's unanswered here in the Colonial 32 00:01:33,879 --> 00:01:36,920 Park by murders, and of course I'm hoping that we 33 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,799 see an ongoing investigation here. And we've got Keith Collin 34 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,200 Cassandra Hailey's disappearance to solve, we have Anna Maria and 35 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,640 Daniel brutal murder number four in the Colonial Park by 36 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,760 murders to solve, and so many other unsolved murders around 37 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,680 that same time. Remember we've got Wilmer killing two couples 38 00:01:57,719 --> 00:02:02,280 now Robin Edwards and David not Kathy Thomas from Rebecca Dowski. 39 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,359 And then we have him killing two individuals, both women, 40 00:02:06,799 --> 00:02:11,000 Teresa Powell and Lori Anne Powell. And that was four. 41 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,680 And then with this identification on Tuesday. Now we're up 42 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:18,680 to six, and I think Wilmer is good for so 43 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:20,240 many more. 44 00:02:21,159 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 5: I think so too, I really do. Which and actually, 45 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,919 what you just said kind of tease up a question 46 00:02:27,039 --> 00:02:29,719 that I'm sure a lot of people are having right now, 47 00:02:30,039 --> 00:02:34,520 which is what's next for us? Because here is Bill 48 00:02:34,599 --> 00:02:38,159 Thomas who has achieved his goal of thirty nine years. 49 00:02:38,159 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 3: You got answers for your sister. 50 00:02:39,879 --> 00:02:41,719 Speaker 2: Which at least some man, seriously we got. 51 00:02:42,039 --> 00:02:44,039 Speaker 5: Yeah, but seriously, we got to take a minute and 52 00:02:44,199 --> 00:02:47,680 really acknowledge you have worked on this so hard for 53 00:02:47,719 --> 00:02:49,840 so long. There is not a day that goes by 54 00:02:50,319 --> 00:02:52,159 when I haven't talked to you where you've had this 55 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,960 case on your mind all of a sudden. Boy's it 56 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,759 must be like taking a breath of fresh air, of 57 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,520 deep breath for the first time in nearly four decades. 58 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, I might feel a little bit more that way 59 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,680 if we've gotten more satisfactory answers to our many questions, 60 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,599 because Bob and I had so many questions, and a 61 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,520 lot of the answers that we got felt stock. Also, 62 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,120 there was a lot of deflection where they they said, oh, 63 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,599 we can't talk about that because of the call Haley 64 00:03:21,719 --> 00:03:25,479 investigation and support right, And I thought to myself, Oh, okay, 65 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,960 now we have a new excuse. There's always been. It's 66 00:03:29,039 --> 00:03:33,680 an open investigation and we really can't comment on that. Remember, 67 00:03:33,719 --> 00:03:38,240 there is the possibility and this was a discussed of accomplices, 68 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,439 and that was something that we talked about. So I 69 00:03:41,479 --> 00:03:45,319 do understand. I haven't lost my mind here. I understand 70 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,120 that these other murders must be solved, and I'm determined 71 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,080 that we can be part of that, and we obviously 72 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,199 want to facilitate that. We're not investigators, as you like 73 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,759 to say, Kristen, but I'll do everything I can to 74 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,479 help this investigation move forward. I would dearly love these 75 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,719 other families to have answers. It's not going to bring 76 00:04:04,719 --> 00:04:07,199 our loved ones back, but at least, as I've said before, 77 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:08,159 we know what happened. 78 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 79 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 5: That does kind of lead into the question of what 80 00:04:11,479 --> 00:04:13,879 is next for us? Are we going anywhere? And the 81 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,839 answer is no, We're not going anywhere. We still have 82 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,000 work to do. Yeah, we have a ton of work 83 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,920 to do now. As you and I were talking about offline, 84 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,600 we may take some well deserved break time for a 85 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,360 week or two, or you probably need a month in 86 00:04:30,399 --> 00:04:32,399 the Caribbean just to kind of get. 87 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,079 Speaker 2: Over all, well, that sounds good. 88 00:04:34,199 --> 00:04:36,399 Speaker 3: I get out of snowy Connecticut and go down to 89 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:37,600 Jamaica or something like that. 90 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: My guy guy, I like it. I like it. 91 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 5: But this podcast is not going anywhere now that we've 92 00:04:44,319 --> 00:04:48,240 found answers in Kathy and Becky's case, we are still 93 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,560 fighting for the calls, the Haleys, the Phelpsas, the Lowers, 94 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,040 and all of the other potential Wilmer victims. 95 00:04:54,079 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 3: Because you guys know, he didn't stop. 96 00:04:57,319 --> 00:05:01,399 Speaker 2: No, he did absolutely stop, absolutely not, And there's so 97 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,439 much more work to be done. I love the idea 98 00:05:04,519 --> 00:05:07,360 of a month in the sun. That's not going to happen, but. 99 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,079 Speaker 3: Maybe a week in the sun, maybe a week at 100 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:11,079 the Jersey short. 101 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,519 Speaker 2: You gotta wait till it warns up, you know what 102 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,160 I'm saying. Yeah, there's so much more work to be done. 103 00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:20,959 Without question. Now that being said, I did say to 104 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,040 Pamela when I got back that I'd like us to 105 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,079 try to focus in twenty twenty six this year on 106 00:05:27,319 --> 00:05:30,560 having more fun if you think about it. I, like 107 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,480 a lot of other people, I've received a very powerful 108 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,040 reminder in the last few months that life's too short. 109 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:40,160 We lost my older brother, Richard, a very distinguished Navy 110 00:05:40,199 --> 00:05:43,040 doctor and a captain, to lung cancer as a result 111 00:05:43,079 --> 00:05:46,439 of exposure to us bestos. We also have this news 112 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:50,600 about Kathy's murder, which just brings that whole thing back, 113 00:05:50,639 --> 00:05:53,759 and just it's like hits you in the chest with 114 00:05:54,079 --> 00:06:00,160 the sadness, really profound sadness that all just comes welling back. 115 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:02,879 One of the things I said to Pamela is we 116 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,439 have got to have more fun in twenty Yeah, twenty six. 117 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,680 We can't work seven days a week on this case. No, 118 00:06:09,879 --> 00:06:12,680 and Pamela's art career and all the other stuff that 119 00:06:12,759 --> 00:06:15,360 we do. Do I need to finish that book on 120 00:06:15,399 --> 00:06:17,839 the Colonial Parker murders, you bet you, But that's going 121 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:21,040 to take time, tell ye. At the same time, we 122 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,759 really are going to do our absolute best to do 123 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,839 some more family things and travel a bit. We'll be 124 00:06:27,879 --> 00:06:30,079 around and you and I have a lot of work 125 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,240 to do. But yeah, I'm going to be desperately trying 126 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,879 to I don't even know if I can relax anymore, 127 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,480 but I'm going to try. 128 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 5: I think it's important because all of a sudden, this weight, 129 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,600 it's maybe not entirely gone, but certainly it has shifted. 130 00:06:47,759 --> 00:06:50,920 It may have become a little less. Another question that 131 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,800 I think is pretty interesting here is what additional work, 132 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,040 if any, will investigators continue to do on Kathy and 133 00:06:58,079 --> 00:07:01,439 Becky's case, Like, now that they have a porpetrator, does 134 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,480 all the work stop or do they continue doing investigation 135 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,399 talking to people like is this ended or is there 136 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:11,399 still more going on? 137 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 3: Or do you have an answer to that? 138 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,759 Speaker 2: My sense is that it's still going on. Remember, too, 139 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,959 we talked about accomplices. I'm not going to name names 140 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,759 on this podcast, but I did name names in the 141 00:07:21,839 --> 00:07:25,519 room of people who are alive who I think are 142 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,879 accomplices to Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, and they were very 143 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,079 interested in that conversation. I brought up two people specifically. 144 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,879 There are others I could have thought of. Sometimes, like 145 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,399 I said, I'm watching very carefully when Bob's talking or 146 00:07:40,439 --> 00:07:43,600 I'm saying something. I'm trying to see is this landing? 147 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,879 Is it registering? Do I see a flicker of acknowledgment 148 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,600 that kind of thing. I brought up two people specifically, 149 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:54,360 and I wanted to see how they'd react. The case 150 00:07:54,399 --> 00:07:58,279 agent in particular was very interested in talking about those 151 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,959 potential effod accomplished because Wilmer may not have acted alone. 152 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 5: And you and I have been doing a lot of 153 00:08:04,519 --> 00:08:06,399 even though we're not investigators, We've been doing a lot 154 00:08:06,399 --> 00:08:08,480 of investigating of our own and. 155 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: I think we have plenty The FBI will want to hear, Yeah, and. 156 00:08:12,079 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: She made that very clear. They want to hear from us. 157 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,920 Like always when we receive tips, I want to do 158 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,319 our research work with our research team and give the 159 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,879 best info that we can to the investigators. They're the 160 00:08:24,959 --> 00:08:28,800 FBI agents, they're the Virginia State Police investigators. They have 161 00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:32,159 to handle this. We're not cops, we're not investigators. At 162 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,799 a time when it felt like, particularly over the last year, 163 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,240 we were hearing nothing, Yeah, I wanted to do everything 164 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:42,000 we could to keep the conversation moving forward, and I 165 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:44,240 will continue to do that with your help and the 166 00:08:44,279 --> 00:08:45,960 help of the rest of our team. 167 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 5: This is actually a pretty interesting question here. I really 168 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,960 like it. Over the years, you both have likely had 169 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:56,240 multiple PET Series potential suspects and different rabbit holes that 170 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,960 in their own right seemed convincing and that you entertained. 171 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,840 What is it like having more concrete answers in evidence now? 172 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,399 Does that free up mental space or is there a 173 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,519 part of you that still has certain dissonance of relingering 174 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,799 questions regarding potential suspects, accomplices, and theories. 175 00:09:12,519 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: I think we're definitely in the dissonance category. And also, 176 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,159 as I mentioned last time, I have a lot of 177 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:24,639 family members. These are victims families, the four families we 178 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,279 sound like, the mob, Thomas Daowski, Call and Haley families, 179 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:34,360 the four FBI cases, and longtime friends, people that knew 180 00:09:34,399 --> 00:09:37,120 Kathy from all the way back in the Navy and 181 00:09:37,159 --> 00:09:39,960 then Naval Academy. There's a lot of people that are 182 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,480 not buying what the FBI is selling about Wilma being responsible. 183 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,039 A number of people have said, Wow, this is awfully convenient. 184 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,519 Blame the dead guy. Blame the guy who's already been 185 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,240 linked to four other homicides, including one of the Colonial 186 00:09:55,320 --> 00:10:01,360 Parkway murders. It feels very convenient to them. I'm not 187 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,639 saying this is where I'm coming from, but one thing 188 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,840 I'm really struggling with. A number of these people are 189 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:12,399 asking me to vouch for the FBI's work, and I've 190 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,000 made a lot of criticisms of the way they've handled 191 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,559 this case. And I still feel the same way. And 192 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,519 I got to tell you this puts me in a 193 00:10:20,879 --> 00:10:24,080 really uncomfortable spot. I'm not saying to friends and family 194 00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:27,399 and our supporters that it's not okay to ask this 195 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,039 kind of question. It's more than fair. One thing I 196 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,679 am not really comfortable with for me personally is I'm 197 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,279 not going to vouch for the FBI's work because they've 198 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,879 been a lot of problems in this case. And I 199 00:10:40,919 --> 00:10:45,360 talk to them about a number of the problems. Discarded evidence, 200 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,519 they threw away Kathy and Becky's rape kids, they leaked 201 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,240 crime scene photos. They had Wilmer and let them go. 202 00:10:53,159 --> 00:10:57,559 They had Ron Little, another longtime suspect from New Zealand 203 00:10:57,799 --> 00:11:00,919 who was deported in nineteen eighty nine, which actually roughly 204 00:11:00,919 --> 00:11:04,360 when the Colonial Parkway murders appear to end. He died 205 00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:07,840 a couple of years ago. He told his family repeatedly 206 00:11:08,919 --> 00:11:11,360 after he was deported back to New Zealand, particularly his 207 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:15,559 young sons. He told them repeatedly up to the day 208 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,360 he died a couple of years ago, now that he 209 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,799 was involved in a series of unsolved murders in Virginia. 210 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,279 Remember he's deported before. The name Colonial Parkway murders is 211 00:11:26,799 --> 00:11:30,240 necessarily used all that widely. And he's back in New 212 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,639 Zealand where he continued his criminal activities. He was involved 213 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:39,600 in meth cooking, drug distribution, gang activity. He suspected of 214 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,960 killing at least one man and burying him under a 215 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,399 highway which was under construction at the time. There is 216 00:11:46,399 --> 00:11:50,679 a videotape of Little and other men torturing a man. 217 00:11:51,159 --> 00:11:55,960 I'm not joking. This is not a nice man. So Little, 218 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,559 who died a couple of years ago, is certainly maybe 219 00:11:59,639 --> 00:12:03,720 very liable suspect. And here we go again. Rather than 220 00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:07,960 properly investigate Ron Little, the FBI and the Immigration and 221 00:12:08,039 --> 00:12:12,480 Naturalization Service deported him back to New Zealand. And long 222 00:12:12,519 --> 00:12:17,200 time lasts will remember, it's Little who inserts himself in 223 00:12:17,279 --> 00:12:21,120 the Colonial Parkway murders in this very bizarre public way, 224 00:12:21,159 --> 00:12:24,679 claiming in interviews and a letter that he wrote to 225 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:29,480 all of these legislative and public leaders and Oprah and 226 00:12:29,799 --> 00:12:34,080 who knows, claiming that he was being harassed by the FBI, 227 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,679 which he probably was, and claiming that he knew who 228 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:41,240 was behind the Colonial Parkway murders. So these are all 229 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,120 very strange behaviors to my eye. And I think yours 230 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,039 ron little needs to be checked out. There's a lot 231 00:12:48,159 --> 00:12:51,279 of very bizarre open issues here. 232 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 5: One of the things that I as you were going 233 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,960 down your litany of terrible things done by the FBI. 234 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:02,279 Speaker 2: And that was only the short too. That's the short list. 235 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you and I know the long list, and 236 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,000 I have reiterated the list long and short in the past. 237 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:09,399 Speaker 2: Yep. 238 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 5: But again, another thing that came back to me when 239 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,720 I learned that it was Wilmer was boy, If the 240 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:20,200 FBI and whoever at York Picosen followed these orders, they 241 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,000 are not entirely free of responsibility in this. If they 242 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,879 had not ordered the destruction of Kathy and Becky's rape 243 00:13:26,919 --> 00:13:29,919 kit and that kid had been available to be tested 244 00:13:30,039 --> 00:13:33,000 via sake Grand, would we be in a much different 245 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,080 place now? Would we have learned about this several years earlier? 246 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,679 Because I don't believe for a minute that Wilmer, who 247 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,080 in all of his previous cases so far, it's been 248 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,039 proven that he sexually assaulted his female victims. I do 249 00:13:47,159 --> 00:13:51,399 not believe for one minute that he didn't assault Kathy 250 00:13:51,399 --> 00:13:53,879 and Becky. I'm sorry, I don't believe it, right, And 251 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,039 I realized that's very hard for you to hear as 252 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:57,559 Kathy's brother, but. 253 00:13:57,919 --> 00:14:01,519 Speaker 2: It's definitely something I've thought about. And remember, of. 254 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,799 Speaker 5: Course it is because you're pragmatic enough to have thought 255 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,080 about it. And even more, as soon as I heard 256 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,840 that it was Wilmer, I immediately thought, I know we 257 00:14:08,879 --> 00:14:10,840 don't swear on the podcast, but I'm joining it right now. 258 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,279 I immediately thought, mother, if they had not destroyed that 259 00:14:14,399 --> 00:14:16,759 rape kit, we might have had this two maybe three 260 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:17,399 years sooner. 261 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: And the FBI said to me in two thousand and nine, 262 00:14:20,519 --> 00:14:22,440 when I called them out on the fact that they 263 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:26,360 had destroyed Kathy and Becky's rape kits as medical waste 264 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,200 per order of the FBI, I told him I thought 265 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,480 it was a huge mistake. And I had tracked down 266 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:35,679 the former chief Medical Examiner for the Commonwealth of Virginia, 267 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:41,919 Marcella Fierro. She's actually the real life chief medical examiner 268 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,399 and the case Garpeta character is based on Marcella Fierro. 269 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,039 Doctor Fierro said to me, mister Thomas, you never destroy 270 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,320 evidence in an unsolved burder case. And she said, I 271 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,360 don't care what the FBI is trying to tell you 272 00:14:55,399 --> 00:14:57,879 about the fact that your sister and Missdowski were not raped. 273 00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:04,759 She said, those kits represented perfect, clean DNA samples of 274 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,720 your sister and Misdowski, which could be used for future tests. 275 00:15:08,759 --> 00:15:12,240 And it's very interesting what she said next. She said, 276 00:15:12,279 --> 00:15:15,799 you never know what will come online in twenty ten. 277 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,120 We're having this conversation with fall two thousand and nine 278 00:15:19,799 --> 00:15:23,799 that will be more sensitive. Think about this. She's talking 279 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,840 about stuff that happened ten fifteen years later, but she 280 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,679 knew where things were going to go. And she said, yes, 281 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:34,320 it does appear that your sister and Missdowski were not raped, 282 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:40,000 but the new tests could be much more sensitive and 283 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,320 be able to detect a rape that we aren't able 284 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,559 to detect now. And she's absolutely right. And so the 285 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,679 idea that the FBI ordered those rape kits destroyed in 286 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,000 I think it's nineteen ninety four. It was eight years 287 00:15:55,039 --> 00:15:58,799 after Kathy and Becky were killed. What is unforgivable? And 288 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:01,639 she said to me, I don't care what they're telling 289 00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:06,000 you now, they're lying. She said that to me. Yeah, 290 00:16:06,039 --> 00:16:10,080 God bless doctor Fierro, like all these amazing people that 291 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,600 we've met. Every time you and I have a chance 292 00:16:12,639 --> 00:16:17,200 to talk to these amazing brilliant scientists, investigators, forensics people. 293 00:16:17,799 --> 00:16:20,679 I hang on their every word because they're so much 294 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,600 smarter than I am, and they know so many more things. 295 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,120 And you and I are both, I think, intensely curious 296 00:16:27,159 --> 00:16:30,200 people that want to learn and want to figure out 297 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,279 how these things that we might learn about will be 298 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:37,200 applicable to in this case, the Colonial Parkway murders. 299 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: We already addressed the DNA questions. 300 00:16:40,759 --> 00:16:44,159 Speaker 5: We did discuss the last episode that it was DNA 301 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,759 that was found on Becky's PRA and that it had 302 00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:48,840 nothing to do with the hair right. 303 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:54,919 Speaker 2: Very dissatisfying from my perspective. No specificity about what kind 304 00:16:55,039 --> 00:16:58,000 of DNA, And I think we have a right to 305 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:03,639 know these things. Sure, I'm going to pursue answers from 306 00:17:03,679 --> 00:17:04,279 the FBI. 307 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,799 Speaker 5: The sixty four thousand dollars question from most everybody in 308 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,400 the comments is, well, now are they going to add 309 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:13,279 him to Cotis. 310 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 2: Remember we were talking about we're going to try to 311 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,559 have more fun this year and all that. Yeah, I 312 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,599 think we have a new project on our hands. We've 313 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,440 touched on this before. Oh yeah, but I think we 314 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,240 are going to be pursuing getting the Codis law in 315 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,839 Virginia changed. Let me explain for our listeners that might 316 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,799 be new to this part of the conversation, because Alan 317 00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:41,799 Wade Wilmer, Senior was never convicted of a crime while 318 00:17:41,839 --> 00:17:44,920 he was still alive. His DNA was never put into 319 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,079 COTIS because he was never convicted of a crime according 320 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,720 to Virginia state law. And I am rolling my eyes 321 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,000 as I say this, we still can't put his DNA 322 00:17:55,039 --> 00:17:58,680 into COTIS. So every single one of these very well 323 00:17:58,759 --> 00:18:02,799 done tests that are being conducted by law enforcement agencies, 324 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,240 DNA Labs International, and other labs around the country, every 325 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:08,720 single one of them has to be done on a 326 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:12,559 one to one basis. Right now, our case agent is 327 00:18:12,599 --> 00:18:16,440 going out and meeting with other cold case specialists at 328 00:18:16,519 --> 00:18:19,039 different law enforcement agencies around the country, and I think 329 00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:22,799 this is a fantastic initiative, and she's urging them to 330 00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:25,720 go back and take a look at their cold case 331 00:18:25,799 --> 00:18:29,759 is to see if something might fit the Alan Wade 332 00:18:29,759 --> 00:18:33,599 Wilmer mL perfect. One of our friends in law enforcement 333 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,759 said to me a couple of years ago, Bill, They've 334 00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:38,759 got to figure out a way to get Wilmer into 335 00:18:38,839 --> 00:18:42,240 CODIS right in the main system, Because he said, I 336 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,960 believe that if they put Wilmer's DNA into the CODA system, 337 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,160 it will light up like an f and Christmas tree. 338 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,799 That's what this expert said. And this needs to happen. 339 00:18:55,319 --> 00:18:58,559 A couple of things. I think it's insane that we 340 00:18:58,599 --> 00:19:01,279 have lost like this on the books in the Commonwealth 341 00:19:01,319 --> 00:19:04,279 of Virginia. I want to see this changed. We have 342 00:19:04,319 --> 00:19:06,960 a new governor in Virginia. I don't live there, but 343 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,680 other folks who. We have a new governor, we have 344 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,359 a new attorney general. We are going to be seeking 345 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,240 a meeting with the AG. We met last year with 346 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,200 Jason Mieris, who was the Attorney General at that time, 347 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:23,279 and he was fantastic, very supportive of the idea. He 348 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,920 was also very upfront and his team were incredibly impressive, 349 00:19:27,559 --> 00:19:31,640 very supportive. Interestingly, all women. So it was Jason Mehras 350 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,960 and a group of really highly accomplished women, several of 351 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,920 whom are gone now because there's been an election and 352 00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:43,400 the governor and the AG are elected positions, and Jay 353 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,200 Jones is the new Attorney General. I'll be seeking a 354 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:51,039 meeting with other families. Last time around, it was myself 355 00:19:51,559 --> 00:19:57,480 Joyce called Canada. Terry Hailey Holman, Cassandra's sister, and Paula 356 00:19:57,519 --> 00:20:01,200 Hailey Meehan, who is also Cassandra, So there were four 357 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,000 family members and we got a great reception. They did 358 00:20:05,079 --> 00:20:08,480 make it clear that timing wise, at the time we 359 00:20:08,519 --> 00:20:10,799 met with them, which is about a year ago, it 360 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,319 was very far into the legislative session. They were very supportive, 361 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,279 but they said it was going to be a heavy lift, 362 00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:21,279 and they thought that waiting until the next legislative session, 363 00:20:21,279 --> 00:20:25,799 which is twenty twenty six, probably made sense. And of 364 00:20:25,839 --> 00:20:28,519 course there was an election and some of those people 365 00:20:28,519 --> 00:20:31,799 are going to be gone. Mister Miras specifically, this is 366 00:20:31,799 --> 00:20:36,000 something we want to pursue. One other thing I'll add, 367 00:20:36,319 --> 00:20:39,960 I think it is also insane that we have fifty 368 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:45,880 different sets of state laws governing CODIS. For gosh sakes, 369 00:20:46,279 --> 00:20:49,039 it makes us sound like a third world country. We 370 00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:53,960 should be setting federal standards for CODIS and having one 371 00:20:54,079 --> 00:20:57,519 set of national standard. This is actually something I believe 372 00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:00,920 the FBI should be working on, the Apartment of Justice 373 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,519 should be working on. Why do we have fifty different 374 00:21:04,559 --> 00:21:08,440 sets of standards for Code of Sentries. This makes no 375 00:21:08,599 --> 00:21:11,559 sense to me whatsoever. And the fact that we can't 376 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,440 upload a serial killer who's now linked to the murder 377 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,160 of six young people, that we still don't have the 378 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,319 right to load his DNA and DA codis Since when 379 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,960 to the rights of a confirmed serial killer exceed the 380 00:21:28,079 --> 00:21:32,640 rights of the Colonial Parkway murders families to get answers 381 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,720 in our loved ones murders. I'm sorry if I sound 382 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,720 like I'm climbing up on the soapbox, but I guess 383 00:21:37,759 --> 00:21:38,240 I am. 384 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,279 Speaker 3: You have every right to climb up on the soapbox. 385 00:21:42,839 --> 00:21:45,519 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 386 00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:53,119 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 387 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:54,039 mindover Murder. 388 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,279 Speaker 5: The only other questions that people are asking over and 389 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:05,480 over was there any other unidentified DNA anywhere on Kathy 390 00:22:05,519 --> 00:22:06,720 and Becky. 391 00:22:06,759 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: We talked a lot about that. We had a real 392 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,599 hard time getting a clear answer. I'm not sure I 393 00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:16,279 know that there could be other male I think Bob 394 00:22:16,319 --> 00:22:20,640 asked the question, was there any other male DNA? Yes? Yeah, 395 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,599 found in the testing of Kathy and Becky's. Now, remember 396 00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:28,440 we got this hit as a result of Becky's brocket. 397 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,559 I would dearly love to know if there were other 398 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,599 unidentified samples. I know that was a concern with our 399 00:22:35,599 --> 00:22:37,920 previous case agent. She talked to us about that that 400 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,759 there might be multiple sources of DNA evidence, some of 401 00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:45,279 which might be completely innocent. There are lots of other 402 00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:48,559 reasons why someone's DNA is in Kathy's car or even 403 00:22:48,599 --> 00:22:52,680 on Kathy and Becky's clothing. We asked the question, but 404 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,880 we didn't get a really super clear answer. 405 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,839 Speaker 5: There are also there are so many sweet people out here. 406 00:22:59,079 --> 00:23:00,519 Speaker 6: There are a lot of people who want to know. 407 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:05,480 Were they respectful of you? Absolutely, they were very professional. 408 00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:09,839 They handled themselves really well. There's been longtime listeners know 409 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,799 there's been a significant amount of friction. 410 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: I didn't pick up on any of that. They were 411 00:23:16,279 --> 00:23:19,960 They treated us very well. Like I said in the 412 00:23:20,039 --> 00:23:23,960 previous episode, we broke at about the two hour mark. 413 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,920 I had in my head probably another two hours worth 414 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,079 of questions. We ended up getting steered to a close, which, 415 00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:34,400 in retrospect, I'm very unhappy about that. On some level, 416 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,920 that was Bob and Bill's part, because if I think 417 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,640 we should have insisted that we stay. It wasn't like 418 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,240 sac Evans suddenly said I got to go or anything 419 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:49,279 like that. That's probably on us. We should have even 420 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:51,720 taken a two minute bio break and then kept going 421 00:23:51,759 --> 00:23:56,319 because I had a ton of additional questions. They were very, 422 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,559 very professional and very respectful. I would have no complaints 423 00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:02,000 whatsoever in that regard. 424 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,559 Speaker 5: There are just so many amazing, wonderful, sweet comments from 425 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,119 people here who just want you to know how much 426 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,759 they admire you, and how much they say that this 427 00:24:13,839 --> 00:24:17,839 wouldn't have happened without you. There are even some people 428 00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:19,400 who said that it wouldn't have happened without me, and 429 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,279 I really appreciate that you. 430 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 2: If it's true for me, it's true for you as well. 431 00:24:24,559 --> 00:24:27,559 Speaker 5: It has been really amazing to hear from so many 432 00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:31,680 people who are so happy for you and for Becky's families. 433 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,359 So whenever you're ready to process some of this, there 434 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,400 are so many kind, loving and thoughtful messages from people 435 00:24:39,839 --> 00:24:42,279 who just say they're so glad. There are people who 436 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,759 said that they cried when they heard. There are people 437 00:24:44,839 --> 00:24:47,799 who said that they they prayed. There were lots of 438 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,799 lots of yay emojis and tear emojis, and it's wonderful. 439 00:24:51,839 --> 00:24:54,400 We're so glad that so many people have been so 440 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,000 kind about it, that so many people are as invested 441 00:24:58,039 --> 00:25:00,759 as we are this case. It has meant a lot 442 00:25:00,759 --> 00:25:03,880 to this whole area for a really long time. There's 443 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,559 no time that's more evident than looking at the comments 444 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:10,240 section on our page right now. Anything that we may 445 00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:12,359 have missed that you want to talk about. 446 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,519 Speaker 2: I pressed the Special legend in charge Evans several times 447 00:25:17,559 --> 00:25:20,200 on this. I said, you need to have a press conference, 448 00:25:20,759 --> 00:25:24,359 you need to take questions on camera. Look, the Virginia 449 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,519 State Police has already had two press conferences, first for 450 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,720 Robin Edwards and David Nobling and Teresa Howell and Virginia 451 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,640 State Police, FBI, Hampton Police were all there, took questions. 452 00:25:39,279 --> 00:25:43,759 And then in November twenty twenty five, when we were 453 00:25:43,839 --> 00:25:47,119 thrilled to find that they had a solve in the 454 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,559 Lori Anne Powell homicide, the Virginia State Police hosted again 455 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,279 and took questions from the audience. I remember FBI and 456 00:25:55,319 --> 00:25:58,880 other agencies were also there a second time. Now here's 457 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,279 the FBI making this announcement. I'm putting air quots around that, 458 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:10,000 and no press conference, no questions on camera. Dominique Evans, 459 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,880 the SAC recorded a video yep, we'll think on our 460 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,440 Facebook pages, which I thought was fine, but there's no 461 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,319 way to interact. And of course it's not lost on me. 462 00:26:23,519 --> 00:26:27,759 I recognize I've criticized FBI Norfolk and FBI Newport News 463 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:33,279 plenty over the thirty nine years hear me, thirty nine 464 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:38,759 years of this investigation. I have criticized them plenty. But 465 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,160 I stand by every single thing I said. I remember 466 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,759 getting into a bit of a tussle with our former 467 00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:48,079 case agent and she was saying how critical I'd been, 468 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,680 and I said, if there's anything I ever said that 469 00:26:50,839 --> 00:26:54,960 was incorrect, please tell me and I'll correct it. But 470 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,839 right now, I stand by every single thing I said. 471 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,559 One of the responses that I got the other day 472 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:09,519 was that they want to solve the Call Haley disappearance. 473 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,799 Remember that's an FBI case, the phelpslower murders on Interstate 474 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,519 sixty four. That's a Virginia State Police case. So she's 475 00:27:17,559 --> 00:27:20,400 not going to address a VSP case. She's going to 476 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,480 talk about the FBI's areas of responsibility. She gave me 477 00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:27,079 the strong sense that they would be willing to have 478 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:32,160 a press conference after Call Haley is solved. Now I 479 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,720 am not necessarily a terribly prayerful person, but I really 480 00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:39,599 appreciate it when people tell me they're praying for me, 481 00:27:39,599 --> 00:27:42,279 because I figure someone with a soul as dark as 482 00:27:42,319 --> 00:27:45,279 mine could use all the prayer I can get. I 483 00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:48,319 got the strong sense that they would be willing to 484 00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:52,519 have a press conference when they solve the Call Haley disappearance, 485 00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:56,119 and that nothing could make me happier. It's not lost 486 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,200 on me that, as someone who's had a lot of 487 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,559 criticisms of the way this case has been handled, You'll 488 00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:07,880 notice there was no opportunity afforded to me, which there 489 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,359 was to the other families. Think about this, Yeah, I'm 490 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,200 always in the corner, just like you are for the 491 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,480 families many from I know, but I'm always in there 492 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,920 wanting the best results for them. And I know sometimes 493 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,440 it's difficult for any of us with a heart to 494 00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:30,200 watch people speak at these press conferences, but they typically 495 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,440 want to thank law enforcement. They also want to talk 496 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,920 a little bit about their loved ones and what they 497 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,759 were like, which is very understandable. You'll notice how they 498 00:28:40,119 --> 00:28:43,400 did not give me any opportunity whatsoever. 499 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,519 Speaker 5: Yeah, nobody wants to put a mic in front of 500 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:49,039 Bill Thomas more than he already has one. 501 00:28:49,359 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 2: My point is, let's be honest as always you know 502 00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:56,759 why they're doing this. They don't want to give me 503 00:28:56,839 --> 00:29:00,000 a microphone. Not because I'm a big mouth, but because 504 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:06,240 I criticized the FBI. And I don't believe I've been unfair, No. 505 00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 3: Not at all, not in the least. 506 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 5: But they don't want their We've said from day one 507 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,480 that they're all about saving face. 508 00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 2: Oh that's FBI job number one, folks. It isn't about 509 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,720 solving crime, and they can take all the offense they want. 510 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,400 This is still Jaya Garoover's FBI, and it's always about 511 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,440 what makes the FBI look good. It isn't and they 512 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,559 can be offended all the way to their toes. Listen carefully, FBI. 513 00:29:35,519 --> 00:29:38,559 It isn't even about solving cases. It's about whether or 514 00:29:38,599 --> 00:29:42,960 not they look good. I don't see any change in 515 00:29:43,079 --> 00:29:48,039 today's FBI. They've always been all about what makes us 516 00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:52,920 look good and never acknowledging anything that makes them look bad. 517 00:29:53,839 --> 00:29:55,960 And when I looked at the SAC and said, you 518 00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:59,079 need to own this, you need to speak about this 519 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,079 on camera, you need to take questions from the audience, 520 00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:05,279 I'm thinking to myself even as I said these things, 521 00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:08,319 and there may have been some finger pointing, I thought 522 00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:12,960 to myself here not bloody likely Bill. Interestingly, things did 523 00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:16,720 end on a pretty cordial note, and I thanked all 524 00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:18,920 of them, and I really do appreciate their hard work. 525 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,240 I asked sac Evans if she would come on Mind 526 00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:25,759 over Murder, and she said. 527 00:30:25,559 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 5: Yes, hell yeah, we're gonna be IPI on the podcast. 528 00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: Guys, I would I truly would welcome that. 529 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,359 Speaker 3: Yes, seriously, I would love to have her on. I 530 00:30:36,359 --> 00:30:38,359 would love to have this conversation. 531 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it would be great because, look, we 532 00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:43,920 have plenty of friends, many of whom are our guests 533 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,000 on this pod regularly, who are affiliated with the FBI. 534 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,240 We do not have a problem with individual agents at 535 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,359 the moment. We have a problem with the institution and 536 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,519 the fact that it can sometimes run repshot over justice 537 00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:03,480 and not do the job that it is supposed to do. 538 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,400 We would love to be able to have someone on, 539 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,599 whether it's sac Evans or our current case agents. 540 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 2: Oh, I would love for one to talk. I'd love 541 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,839 to Actually, no disrespect to the boss, but I'd really 542 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,599 love to have our current case agent on. It was 543 00:31:20,799 --> 00:31:23,480 very evident, and again I'm not taking anything away from 544 00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:27,759 the other incredibly impressive, well spoken, smart people who interacted 545 00:31:27,799 --> 00:31:30,640 with us at the meeting, the person that had the 546 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,880 greatest amount of case knowledge. And this is perfectly natural. 547 00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:36,200 I would say this is probably true at any agency. 548 00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:39,599 The case agent's only been handling the case for the 549 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,680 last couple of years. But she's really smart, and she 550 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,240 definitely knows what she's talking about, and she definitely had 551 00:31:46,319 --> 00:31:50,599 more detailed case information than anyone else on her side 552 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,440 of the table. I'd like to get her on the 553 00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:58,599 podcast even I'll even go a step further with your permission, Kristen, 554 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,039 I didn't be willing to submit the questions in advance. 555 00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:03,000 I'm not trying to skunk anybody. 556 00:32:03,599 --> 00:32:07,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, this is not good gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, we don't 557 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:10,200 want to play gotcha. We are legitimately interested. Are there 558 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,720 going to be answers that we may not want to 559 00:32:12,759 --> 00:32:17,240 hear because it's upsetting or frustrating. Yeah, I'm sure there 560 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,640 are going to be those, but we are interested. At 561 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,039 the end of the day, how did you solve this case? 562 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,559 What do we know about Wilmer? What do we still 563 00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:28,200 not know about Wilmer? We really want to know, because 564 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,960 this is the FBI is uncovering in the vspes, not 565 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,880 forget the VSP is the one who identified him first. Yes, 566 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,880 the FBI and the VSP have uncovered a serial killer 567 00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:46,279 in Virginia, previously unknown who flew under the radar for years. 568 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,720 Apparently have more of my students listening to this every day, 569 00:32:49,759 --> 00:32:50,079 which is. 570 00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 3: A little scary. 571 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 5: Hi, guys, But somebody asked me today and sometimes kids, 572 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,200 teenagers can't get down to really good fundamental questions. 573 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 3: And I think sometimes we forget. 574 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 5: To ask ourselves as adults, like what well, And this 575 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,319 one kid just looked at me and he goes, how 576 00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:08,119 do you get away. 577 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:08,799 Speaker 3: With it for so long? 578 00:33:10,039 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 2: Boy? 579 00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:14,119 Speaker 5: This is a good It's a great question. And he goes, 580 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,920 did his family not know? And I said, no, we 581 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:19,440 did not have any idea. I don't I don't think so, 582 00:33:19,519 --> 00:33:22,160 and for family did not have any idea. But there 583 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,319 he goes hot. He goes, how do you kill that 584 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,759 many people and live with yourself? And I said, buddy, 585 00:33:26,839 --> 00:33:28,839 I don't know, but I think it's a great question 586 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:29,720 that you're asking. 587 00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:32,839 Speaker 2: At that point, you have to start looking up psychopaths 588 00:33:32,839 --> 00:33:36,519 and sociopaths, because I'm not sure how someone lives with 589 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,079 themselves either. I don't want to mention the Wilmer family 590 00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:43,799 without letting everybody know they I continue to maintain and 591 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,119 I know Kristen does. Two. The Wilmer family have been 592 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,559 nothing but cooperative and as helpful as they can be. 593 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,119 This has been incredibly difficult for them. Remember, we can 594 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,160 hate even what Alan Wade Wilmer Senior did to these 595 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,319 beautiful young people. Yeah, none of this has anything to 596 00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:08,159 do with his ex wife. They were married for I 597 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,000 don't know six or seven years, don't hold me to 598 00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:13,159 that number. But they had two kids who were little 599 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,239 kids at the time of the Colonial parkmy murders. I 600 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,199 think they were, off the top of my head, like 601 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,599 eight and ten. They're not going to know anything about 602 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:26,519 what their divorced dad is doing down in Hampton when 603 00:34:26,519 --> 00:34:29,800 they're living in Lancaster County a couple of hours away. 604 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,320 They saw their dad, no way of knowing their little 605 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,440 kids and his ex wife had remarried. They stayed in 606 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,679 touch because they had two kids together and Lancaster County 607 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,199 is a lightly populated area, especially back then. They would 608 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:46,840 see each other, but it was handoffs of kids for 609 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,320 weekends and stuff like that. The Wilmer family had no 610 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:55,280 way of knowing what Allen was into. Even now, I 611 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,280 hope everybody would continue to treat the Wilmers with to respect. 612 00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:05,599 They're lovely people. I've spoken to them directly a number 613 00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:08,639 of times. You and I have met one of them. 614 00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:12,119 I'd like to meet more. And this has come as 615 00:35:12,159 --> 00:35:15,719 a terrible shock to them. Have to find out what 616 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,519 he was into. It has to be as shocking to 617 00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:22,079 them as it is to the rest of us. So 618 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,480 I cannot thank them enough for their grace and kindness, 619 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,679 and I wish them nothing but the best. This is 620 00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:33,079 very difficult for them. I know in speaking with one 621 00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:35,840 of the family members back in November, they were very 622 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,320 upset by something. And I get this the way this 623 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,960 has unfolded, which is no one's fault. We've had announcement, 624 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,639 two years go by, and then there's another announcement, and 625 00:35:47,679 --> 00:35:52,719 now what another another one later. Yeah, a couple months 626 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,639 go by and there's another announcement. No one's doing this intentionally. 627 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,719 It's just the way we've gotten asaki grants, and we've 628 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,599 got and the test results and they've put the cases together. 629 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,760 There's this horrible kind of drip drip quality too. Yes, exactly, 630 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,760 this family member said to me, we'd rather be hit 631 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,519 with a tsunami of all of the things that on 632 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,239 was responsible for, rather than when's the next announcement going 633 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,280 to be? And it's just more dreadful news. By the way, 634 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,519 the Wilmer family wasn't even informed about this FBI announcement, 635 00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:34,199 which I think is actually shocking that they couldn't give 636 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,760 them the heads up. Now, the Virginia State Police not 637 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,800 only did they give them the heads up and the 638 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,199 two previous announcements, they afforded the Wilmer family an opportunity 639 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,599 to issue a statement offering their condolences and their shock 640 00:36:48,679 --> 00:36:51,000 and sadness about what had happened. And I think they 641 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,239 have every right to that. The FBI didn't reach out, 642 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,440 didn't ask for a statement, and didn't tell them. They 643 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,400 found out about it after it broke on the internet. 644 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,480 And that's no way to find. 645 00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 3: Out, No no way, no way. That's terrible. 646 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 5: We have so much more to go with this case, 647 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,280 and we have so much more work to do. Anybody 648 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,639 who's concerned, We're not going anywhere. This podcast is not 649 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,840 going anywhere. We will still continue to cover the same 650 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,559 things that we have always covered, will continue to really 651 00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:27,880 dig and try to do some additional victim outreach and 652 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,800 advocacy and support to help all the other families that 653 00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:34,639 are still in the position of not knowing what happened 654 00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:35,679 to their loved ones. 655 00:37:36,159 --> 00:37:37,199 Speaker 3: I want to close out. 656 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 5: I know how much you love being complimented, Bill, but 657 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,000 I know I do want to finish with something that 658 00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:47,519 someone said that I think is really just absolutely beautiful. 659 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,199 I think it's a great way to end the episode, 660 00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:54,440 but I'm actually going to have to take a moment 661 00:37:54,599 --> 00:37:57,960 to find it again because we have so many comments 662 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,280 I've lost them. Aut All, Right, here we go. This 663 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:01,760 is a great way to in the episode. This is 664 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,320 from this for our listener, Todd. I'm gonna call the 665 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,639 c ode to Bill Thomas. Bill Thomas didn't just want 666 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,320 or wish this case to be solved. He went to 667 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,760 the greatest length possible to achieve justice, not only in 668 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,639 his personal case, but also to all involved. Harm's way 669 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,000 never affected his path, and he never let futility enter 670 00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:26,880 into his vocabulary. Although peace is always limited in this situation, 671 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,360 the peace afforded to him is so well deserved. On 672 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,840 earth and in heaven. We can all celebrate. His seeking 673 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:34,000 is no longer empty. 674 00:38:35,199 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 2: Wow, Todd, I can't thank him enough. It's very kind. 675 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,599 Speaker 5: I feel like this is one of those times where 676 00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:44,360 if we were on a game show, somebody would say, 677 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,719 Bill Thomas, you just won the grand prize, where are 678 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,159 you gonna go Disney World? But no, I think you 679 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,239 need to go for a month in king Kun and 680 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,800 barring that, like a week in the Berkshire's or something 681 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,519 like that. Oh wait, you live in there is it 682 00:39:00,519 --> 00:39:02,679 should be like a week in the Rockies or something 683 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:03,480 along those lines. 684 00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 2: As we prepare for twenty inches of snow, yeah. 685 00:39:07,119 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 5: Boy, we're looking at that here too. Y. That is 686 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,199 going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. 687 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,719 There will be much more information coming out in the 688 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,719 days ahead about the solve about everything else, But for 689 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,639 right now, thank you all so much for listening. 690 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 3: We'll see you next time. 691 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 692 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:39,840 Another Dog Productions. 693 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 694 00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:46,519 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 695 00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:49,199 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 696 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,639 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 697 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,559 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 698 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 699 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,239 murders on Facebook. 700 00:40:02,039 --> 00:40:05,039 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 701 00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:06,719 Bill Thomas. Five six. 702 00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:10,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.