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<v Speaker 1>Oh ye is bot it shoot Died.

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<v Speaker 2>People say good money to see this movie.

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<v Speaker 3>When they go out to a theater.

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<v Speaker 4>They want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters in

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<v Speaker 4>the protection booth.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring.

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<v Speaker 5>Got it off.

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<v Speaker 4>This is an incredible tale. Hard to set up an

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<v Speaker 4>apartment inside.

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<v Speaker 3>Providence Place, Margo and undetected for years.

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<v Speaker 5>We all hated them all.

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<v Speaker 3>When it went up right, nobody wanted that to happen.

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<v Speaker 5>Shortly after a developer comes in and says, I'm going

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<v Speaker 5>to knock.

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<v Speaker 4>Down your home.

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<v Speaker 2>I just had this idea, Oh, we should in the mall.

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<v Speaker 5>It seemed like a very absurd fantasy and perhaps a

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<v Speaker 5>great challenge. When the mall was being built, I saw

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<v Speaker 5>a space that I could not figure out what it would.

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<v Speaker 3>Be used for.

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<v Speaker 5>We were looking forward that anominally in the architecture, and

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<v Speaker 5>we knuck ourselves in there and we took out our

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<v Speaker 5>flash lives.

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<v Speaker 2>There was.

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<v Speaker 5>It started the conversation immediately, we need to develop this

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<v Speaker 5>under utilized space. There was a real necessity to build

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<v Speaker 5>a wall there.

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<v Speaker 1>It was like five pounds of center box.

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<v Speaker 5>It's important to emphasize there's this underlying sense of dread

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<v Speaker 5>that we're going to get caught at any time.

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<v Speaker 3>Flash.

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<v Speaker 5>So what is it? Is it a prank? Is it

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<v Speaker 5>a work of art? Is it a social experiment?

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<v Speaker 1>It was like this alternate universe is within the real world.

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<v Speaker 4>It talks about gentrification, capitalism, everything being commodified.

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<v Speaker 5>The apartment was the side project to the others back.

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<v Speaker 3>We were like a little elite strikeforced team of.

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<v Speaker 1>Empathetic artists.

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<v Speaker 6>Such a magic thing to take a space from them all.

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<v Speaker 2>Holy note, Hey folks, welcome to a special episode of

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<v Speaker 2>The Projection Booth.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm your host, Mike White. On this episode, I'm talking

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<v Speaker 4>Withjeremy Workman and Michael Townsend. Jeremy is the director and

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<v Speaker 4>Michael Townsend is one of the subjects of the new

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<v Speaker 4>film Secret Mall Apartment. It is about a group of

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<v Speaker 4>eight people that discover a hidden space inside of a

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<v Speaker 4>mall in Providence, Rhode Island and kind of create an

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<v Speaker 4>art project out of it. The irony that I didn't

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<v Speaker 4>bring up during this interview is I've only been to

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<v Speaker 4>Rhode Island one time, and I think I went to

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<v Speaker 4>that mall. I think I saw X men first class there,

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<v Speaker 4>so kind of strange to see it again and see

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<v Speaker 4>it in this context. I had a great time talking

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<v Speaker 4>with these guys, had a great time watching the movie.

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<v Speaker 4>Definitely check it out when it comes to your town.

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<v Speaker 4>It is actually playing theatrically right now, so check those

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<v Speaker 4>local listings, as I say, and if it has already gone,

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<v Speaker 4>or if you don't have a theater around you playing it,

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<v Speaker 4>keep looking. Check it out. And I think you will

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<v Speaker 4>really enjoy watching this film, and I hope you enjoy

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<v Speaker 4>listening to this interview. Jeremy, tell me, how did you

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<v Speaker 4>even first hear about this secret apartment.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't know anything about this story. It was like

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<v Speaker 3>urban legend in Providence. I'm not from Providence. I've been

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<v Speaker 3>making documentaries in New York for the last like decade,

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<v Speaker 3>and I didn't really know anything. I was out in Athens, Greece.

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<v Speaker 3>I was filming for another documentary of mine called Lily

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<v Speaker 3>Topples the World, which has nothing to do with any

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<v Speaker 3>of this, and it was about this young woman who

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<v Speaker 3>it becomes the world's greatest Domino toppler. She was out there,

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<v Speaker 3>I was filming her and the building that she was

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<v Speaker 3>in was.

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<v Speaker 1>Covered in incredible tape.

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<v Speaker 3>Art, masking tape art which for your listeners and the

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<v Speaker 3>people that will see the movie. Michael Townsend is the

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<v Speaker 3>world's foremost tape artist, so this is putting tape art

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<v Speaker 3>on the walls and facades of buildings in spectacular ways.

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<v Speaker 3>I saw that tape art, I instantly was intrigued.

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<v Speaker 1>I've done a number of films.

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<v Speaker 3>About artists and people that are doing sort of quirky,

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<v Speaker 3>unique things. I wanted to meet Michael, and we met,

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<v Speaker 3>and I didn't know anything about this secret apartment in

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<v Speaker 3>the mall, and somewhere along the line he told me.

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<v Speaker 3>I couldn't believe it. I thought he was punking me.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought he was totally full of it. And he

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<v Speaker 3>then at one point whipped out. This was in Greece,

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<v Speaker 3>like late at night. He whips out an iPad that

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<v Speaker 3>was like with a crack screen.

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<v Speaker 1>We're showing you.

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<v Speaker 3>Your listeners can't see it, but it's like cracked and crappy,

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<v Speaker 3>and he like connects to the cloud and he shows

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<v Speaker 3>me footage of them pushing up the couches, up the ladders,

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<v Speaker 3>and I was instantly blown away.

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<v Speaker 1>What I didn't know at the time is that.

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<v Speaker 3>This was a pretty famous story in Providence and for

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<v Speaker 3>nearly twenty years filmmakers had wanted to make this documentary.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel fortunate that I was the one that got to.

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<v Speaker 4>Michael. Why Jeremy, Why was he the one that was

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<v Speaker 4>allowed to do this?

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<v Speaker 5>As Jeremy mentioned, there was a persistent interest in turning

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<v Speaker 5>this narrative into a larger project, a lot of directors

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<v Speaker 5>coming out of the wood work, and we were not

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<v Speaker 5>interested in the story being told as prank, or the

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<v Speaker 5>focus being solely on it as a stunt or folklore,

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<v Speaker 5>or the focus being entirely on me. Those are things

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<v Speaker 5>I'm just not interested in. When I met Jeremy, I

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<v Speaker 5>actually got to see him at work, so he's out

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<v Speaker 5>in the field.

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<v Speaker 1>I get to see him with his subject matter.

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<v Speaker 5>I get to see how he approaches eccentric artist folks,

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<v Speaker 5>and that went a long way towards trusting him. On

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<v Speaker 5>top of that, I'd seen one of his movies before

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<v Speaker 5>and really liked it.

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<v Speaker 1>The World Before a Feed.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah that's the one about the guy walking every street

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<v Speaker 3>of New York City.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we really like that film.

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<v Speaker 5>So it was interesting to actually meet a filmmaker that

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<v Speaker 5>I already liked, to see his process, and I trusted

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<v Speaker 5>him when we had conversations about it as a film,

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<v Speaker 5>I said, hey, look, here's the reason I've turned everyone

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<v Speaker 5>else down. The story of the mall is informed by

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<v Speaker 5>all the other art work that was happening around that project.

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<v Speaker 5>So this team of eight artists were involved in a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of very serious and intense artwork, of which the

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<v Speaker 5>mall is one piece. And if you're able to capture

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<v Speaker 5>all those things, even my personal opinion, I think he

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<v Speaker 5>got a good story. And in order to tell that,

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<v Speaker 5>you're go need to have interviews with all the artists.

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<v Speaker 5>They're all out in their field, live in their own

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<v Speaker 5>art lives. So he's gonna have to convince eight people,

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<v Speaker 5>and then he's gonna have to go to Providence and

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<v Speaker 5>find some talking heads to give us context. There's a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of work, so we just trusted that Jeremy. Jeremy

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<v Speaker 5>seemed up for it, and luckily, when I handed him

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<v Speaker 5>a hard drive of all of the footage we had shot,

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<v Speaker 5>he was and fairly immediately that there was some good

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<v Speaker 5>bones there.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. An underrated part of documentary filmmaking is convincing people

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<v Speaker 3>to let you make a movie on them. It's a

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<v Speaker 3>real part of being able to make documentaries and It's

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<v Speaker 3>not easy because you're not offering money, you're not offering fame.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a difficult process. You're going into their lives, you're

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<v Speaker 3>asking them challenging questions, you're demanding time from them.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a part of the process of being.

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<v Speaker 3>A documentary filmmaker is earning the respect of your subjects.

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<v Speaker 4>So you had one person with Michael, how do you

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<v Speaker 4>get the other seven?

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<v Speaker 3>It was very much about what Michael alluded to. I

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<v Speaker 3>really went into it looking at this as yet. First

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<v Speaker 3>of all, the whole thing with living in the Secret Apartment,

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<v Speaker 3>it's amazing, it's spectacular. It's like a heist movie. You

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<v Speaker 3>can't even imagine how fun and ridiculous and entertaining and

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<v Speaker 3>stupid and just bonkers fun it all is. Behind that,

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<v Speaker 3>they were also doing these really incredible things on the side.

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<v Speaker 3>They were making memorials for nine to eleven that they

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<v Speaker 3>were doing anonymously. They were going into children's hospitals and

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<v Speaker 3>working with children that were extremely sick, and they were

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<v Speaker 3>doing that for essentially no money, and they were doing

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<v Speaker 3>it every week. So there was all these other things

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<v Speaker 3>that this group was doing, and I was fascinated by that,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think that just that simple act of just

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<v Speaker 3>being really interested in those aspects and how it connected

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<v Speaker 3>to the secret apartment and how there was all these

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<v Speaker 3>cross currents between the two. I think that's what made

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<v Speaker 3>the group feel Okay, yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's fantastic. Was everybody else spread out? Did you

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<v Speaker 4>have to do a lot of traveling for this? Obviously

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<v Speaker 4>you're talking about Greece at the beginning of this story.

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<v Speaker 4>Do you have to then travel the whole state?

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<v Speaker 1>Sir?

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<v Speaker 3>Most of the art these are all living, all what

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<v Speaker 3>we call the Mall eight. These are the eight people

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<v Speaker 3>that were with Michael and lived in the Providence Place

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<v Speaker 3>Mall from two thousand and three to two thousand and seven,

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<v Speaker 3>on and off.

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<v Speaker 1>But there were eight of them. They all several of them.

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<v Speaker 3>They're all still working artists, every single one of them,

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<v Speaker 3>which I also found fascinating in some aspect it either

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<v Speaker 3>art education or as working artists. So most of them

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<v Speaker 3>are on the East Coast, they're in New England, they're

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<v Speaker 3>in Providence, they're in New York. So that made it

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<v Speaker 3>a little easier just to be able to like corral

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<v Speaker 3>them all.

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<v Speaker 1>You use a.

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<v Speaker 4>Couple I don't want to say props, but you do

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<v Speaker 4>a few things in the movie that I found really

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<v Speaker 4>very clever. The idea of the recreation of the apartment

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<v Speaker 4>was wonderful, and then also the model of the whole mall.

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<v Speaker 4>How does that come to be? How's that model brought

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<v Speaker 4>into the four.

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<v Speaker 3>First of all, your listeners should realize, like the secret

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<v Speaker 3>mall apartment like shape shifts. And that's what I think

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<v Speaker 3>is so neat for a viewer and was really neat

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<v Speaker 3>for me as a filmmaker. On one hand, it's this

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<v Speaker 3>like stance against gentrification. On the other hand, it's this

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<v Speaker 3>ridiculous prank. It's also this like really deep data artwork.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's all these things. And what it told me

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<v Speaker 3>while making it was that I could just do anything,

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<v Speaker 3>and I could bring any idea to the table.

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<v Speaker 1>And Michael, he said a lot of a point.

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<v Speaker 5>He said, I've always wanted to have a model. In

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<v Speaker 5>one of my movies, in the World Beneath the Feet,

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<v Speaker 5>there's a scene where there's a big model of the

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<v Speaker 5>city and he's but I would like to have one

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<v Speaker 5>for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know what, yes, one of one of the mall.

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<v Speaker 5>Hey, Colin can totally make you model. You want a mall,

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<v Speaker 5>He'll give you a.

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<v Speaker 3>Mall, so hels and he builds this gigant model out

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<v Speaker 3>of wood of the mall. But what we did that

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<v Speaker 3>was really interesting is that becomes part of the movie

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<v Speaker 3>where you watch him make it, and it's not just

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<v Speaker 3>a prop. It becomes a way to involve the character

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<v Speaker 3>the subjects to participate. Well.

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<v Speaker 5>It's a nice reminder that, like we're artists, given five

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<v Speaker 5>or six hours to tell the story, you can dive

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<v Speaker 5>into all the different artists and what they make and

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<v Speaker 5>all that. But there's a nice sort of view into

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<v Speaker 5>the other art worlds that are happening and a perfect.

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<v Speaker 3>The other thing that we did, of course, is Michael

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<v Speaker 3>participated in the recreation, so he was actively building the

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<v Speaker 3>recreation set with our production designer, and these are scenes

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<v Speaker 3>that you watch.

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<v Speaker 1>In the movie.

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<v Speaker 3>So the movie's doing this kind of very meta. It's

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<v Speaker 3>it's like a ridiculous mc escher where you're just seeing

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<v Speaker 3>all these different sides to this prism. You're seeing the

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<v Speaker 3>making of it, you're seeing the recreation, you're seeing Michael

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<v Speaker 3>involved in it, you're seeing the footage that they shot,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's all heppered in this different prism. And it

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<v Speaker 3>was also a way to bring Michael into the participation

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<v Speaker 3>of the story as well. Where he's acts, he acts

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<v Speaker 3>in the recreation.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, how was that was that your first acting gig

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<v Speaker 4>or had you been on screen before?

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's acting.

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<v Speaker 5>I can play myself rush place, no one else that acting.

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<v Speaker 5>It's just man, I'm pretty good at that.

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<v Speaker 4>The whole idea that you're talking about with all of

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<v Speaker 4>these like the nine to eleven project in Oklahoma City

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<v Speaker 4>and all these I'm like, where's it going with this?

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<v Speaker 4>And then if it really comes together at the end,

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<v Speaker 4>and I'm just like, Okay, this makes so much sense

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<v Speaker 4>and like you said, paints that larger world rather than

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<v Speaker 4>it just being here's these eight people that had this

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<v Speaker 4>apartment in them.

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<v Speaker 1>All as a long time. Just even listener to the

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<v Speaker 1>Projection book.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm a cinophile and I'm a fan of I think

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<v Speaker 3>my entry into making documentaries is with scripted films and

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<v Speaker 3>with fiction films. One of the things that scripted films

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<v Speaker 3>do is they throw you in the deep end. They

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<v Speaker 3>don't explain everything, where documentaries often they fill in the

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<v Speaker 3>blanks and they explain a lot, and there's they make

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<v Speaker 3>sure the audience knows where they are all time and

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<v Speaker 3>One of the things that we were trying to do

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<v Speaker 3>in this movie is just throw you into these scenes

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<v Speaker 3>into the deep end, and you, a viewer, would have

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<v Speaker 3>to figure out where they were and figure out how

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<v Speaker 3>it all made sense, and then it hopefully all adds

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<v Speaker 3>up in the end.

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<v Speaker 1>So that was something that we tried to do from

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<v Speaker 1>the get go.

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<v Speaker 4>Jeremy and Michael, I'm so sorry that we have to

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<v Speaker 4>cut this short. I just said the little window of time.

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<v Speaker 4>But I hope we can talk again one of these days. Jeremy,

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<v Speaker 4>definitely keep me in the loop. I would love to

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<v Speaker 4>talk to you about more of your work.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I should come on and talk about some absurd

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<v Speaker 3>noir seventies obscurio or whatever.

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<v Speaker 4>I would absolutely love it. Nice to meet you. You guys,

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<v Speaker 4>have a good rest of your day.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, Thanks so much, And.

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