WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.439 Look, it's a great question, and I've predicated my statements 2 00:00:03.480 --> 00:00:06.759 by saying this isn't a Democrat versus Republican thing. As 3 00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:09.279 you just pointed out on fit twenty one seventy one, 4 00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:12.599 Democrats voted for it. Like you know, Actually, frankly, if 5 00:00:12.599 --> 00:00:17.440 there's any party that philosophically should agree with like getting 6 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:20.399 out crypto to the people, it's the Democrats, right. I mean, 7 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:22.760 these are the people that I've always believed in pushed 8 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:25.960 the power back to the people, right. They believe they're 9 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:29.519 open for freedom, et cetera. Party alignment is strong. 10 00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:39.399 Welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, 11 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:41.399 and with me today is Mike Belshie, who's the co 12 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:45.320 founder and CEO of Bitgo. Mike, great to have you back. 13 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:48.640 On Always good to see you, Tony. How are you great? 14 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.439 Mike? I always love speaking to you because of your 15 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:55.840 web pedigree web one point zero two point zero, and 16 00:00:55.840 --> 00:01:00.000 you have just a great perspective on technology in the markets. 17 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:04.719 Start with bitgo. What's new any clients that you can 18 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:07.439 highlight anything cool that you guys are working on. 19 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:10.760 Well, thanks, Tony, it's always always a pleasure to be here. 20 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:14.480 You do a great job covering the space. Look, the 21 00:01:14.519 --> 00:01:17.879 industry moves at a million miles an hour, and Bitco 22 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:21.239 is no exception. Been really happy. We've we've been growing 23 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:24.079 the team considerably this year just on all the new 24 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:26.400 initiatives that we have. One of the things you might 25 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:29.680 have heard about is go Network. Go Network is finally 26 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.560 connecting the ability to post trade settlements all within qualified custody. 27 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.120 Pretty Much every single one of our institutional customers needs this. 28 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:41.680 They've been doing various forms of you know, on chain, 29 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.760 you know, self custody. I'll call them hacks. And while 30 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:48.760 that works great for individuals, when it comes to businesses, 31 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:50.719 they really can't be holding their own keys. They don't 32 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:53.680 want to hold their own keys. They know this. So 33 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.159 we've spent a ton of time. We got super fast 34 00:01:56.159 --> 00:02:00.000 withdrawals straight out of cold custody. It's in qualified custody 35 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:02.560 all the time. And the reaction that we had, you know, 36 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:04.239 a couple of years ago is like, well, you know, 37 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:07.519 I got other operational processes, et cetera. But this year, 38 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.039 you know, the tune has really changed, and so people 39 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:12.639 are really excited about that. Other than that, you know, 40 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:15.719 the bull market carries everybody we've expanded our trading offering, 41 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:21.319 we've expanded our our custody offering, and you know, pretty 42 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:23.800 much kind of at all time highs I guess for 43 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:26.840 the company in terms of how things are doing. Uh, 44 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:29.879 the ETF markets have helped. Obviously, we're custodying a number 45 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:32.360 of those, some of them we haven't heard about yet, 46 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:35.240 which are coming as well, but as we're good. And 47 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:39.919 then lastly we're finally getting our full network of you know, 48 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:43.439 global custodians together are fully fully operationally, I should say, 49 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:45.719 it takes time, you know, get the regulatory clearances for 50 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:48.960 all the parts of the stack. Bicko does a tremendous 51 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:50.680 amount of staking. For instance, we spend a lot of 52 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:54.400 time with regulators understanding what it means to be doing 53 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:57.879 staking from within uh, from within qualified because see, of 54 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:00.360 course we did that in an institutional way that it 55 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:03.120 never has any friction with the regulators. But there's so 56 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:07.120 much confusion about how this industry works that we have 57 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:08.319 to do a lot of time with it. So anyway, 58 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:11.000 Tobai is very close to being up and running Singapore, 59 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:13.599 very close to being up and running our Boffin license. 60 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.000 You know, European entity is already running and that's been 61 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:20.919 growing very well. It's one hundred percent MEEKER ready today. 62 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.000 So actually, from Bicco's perspective, you know, we'd like to 63 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:28.800 like to have MEEK go into effect. Effect Earlier we 64 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:31.520 went with the hardest regulator we're in in Germany with 65 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:34.759 Boffen that's like the New York dfs of Europe. But 66 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:38.080 looking forward to you know, being ready for the next 67 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:41.479 wave of institutions, and you know, the next wave brings 68 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:44.159 in the more and more conservative folks, so pension funds 69 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.960 that previously couldn't touch crypto because the infrastructure wasn't ready. 70 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:50.599 We want to make sure we've got the infrastructure ready. 71 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.080 That's what we're doing and so far it's got really 72 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:55.159 good positive signals. 73 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:59.319 That's amazing. Congrats on the success. Follow up question on 74 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:04.199 your expansion in Dubai. Are you seeing demand from sovereign 75 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.840 wealth funds? That's been you know, one of the areas 76 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:08.560 a lot of people are interested in because they know 77 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:12.120 endowments are here, they know hedge funds, family offices, high 78 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:14.319 net worth individuals, but a lot of folks have been 79 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:16.319 wondering where are the sovereign wealth funds. 80 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:20.279 Well, look, I mean they've been in for quite some time, 81 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:23.240 so this isn't this isn't new, and I don't think 82 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:26.920 it's surprised obviously, you know, tremendous amount of investment from Dubai. 83 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:30.959 I think the UAE in general is a super positive 84 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:34.600 business climate, you know. I mean obviously that entire region 85 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:37.279 is has a bit of a single point of failure 86 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:40.120 within their business acumen, you know, too much on just 87 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:44.439 kind of oil and energy. They're looking to diversify. They 88 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.240 are spending in tremus amount of resources to bring technology 89 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:51.000 that includes you know, obviously crypto, bitcoin, et cetera, so 90 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:54.879 includes AI and things like that. So the regulators there, 91 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:58.000 we find are very much trying to understand what the 92 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:00.680 issues are, how they can provide great service. I think 93 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.279 they've got a real opportunity to become like a global 94 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:09.160 hub of finance over the next ten years. They're definitely 95 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:11.800 they have a great attitude. 96 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:14.199 For sure. And do you feel that, you know, once 97 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:17.720 we figure out some of the legislation and regulations here 98 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:21.600 in the US and there's clarity, some of that business 99 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:23.319 in these other parts of the world will come to 100 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:26.079 the United States, maybe some that have already left, and 101 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:26.920 they may come back. 102 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:31.199 Well, look, I mean crypto is still relatively small, so 103 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:35.120 the amount that's left, I think is also relatively small. 104 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:39.120 By definition, the US owns the markets, right, it is 105 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.720 ours to lose. We have the most stable markets, we 106 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:46.279 have the strongest legal system. As long as we continue 107 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:50.399 to provide stable currencies like a reserve currency that everybody 108 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:53.279 can trust and understand and use, as long as we 109 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:56.839 continue to provide a legal backdrop that provides a fair 110 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:01.040 and understandable business climate, we will win. And this is 111 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:04.000 where like the current events are so troubling. I mean, obviously, 112 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.879 on the US dollar side, sanctions controls, I understand the 113 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.360 need for politically to have sanctions et cetera. And of 114 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:13.720 course you know we fully abide by that, but the 115 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:15.839 US needs to be very careful when you tell the 116 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:20.480 world that you might take away their money and use 117 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:24.079 it to fund their enemies. In some cases, if if 118 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:26.360 you go a foul of US policy, you're telling the 119 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:28.639 world like, hey, you need to be really extra careful 120 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:33.160 about using US dollars as a reserve reserve currency. Further, 121 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:37.600 on the law front, you know, whether it's the SEC 122 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:41.079 or other, when we make it difficult for businesses to 123 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:44.199 predict how they're going to operate. They won't operate. But 124 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:48.639 you know, the demand is there. Crypto hits I forget, 125 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:54.360 fifty million Americans today globally, it's growing on a daily basis. 126 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:58.800 It's absolutely unquestionable that the people of the world, not 127 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:02.160 just the US, want to have good access to crypto 128 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:06.160 and the United States has a choice either a regulators, 129 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:09.120 you know, get off their high horse and start working 130 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:11.399 with business to figure out how to bring it here. 131 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:13.759 And you know, it may have faults to do that, 132 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.439 it may seem uncomfortable for others to do that. I 133 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.360 tell you, you know, Bicco is here to help make it 134 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:21.680 work well for regulators coinbases as well. There's a bunch 135 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:24.480 of stand up companies that are really working hard to 136 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:27.519 make it so that regulatory needs could be met. But 137 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:30.240 if we do that, we can bring all the business here. 138 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:32.439 We can do it over an interative period. You get 139 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:34.879 the business here first. And there's two things. I mean 140 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:38.240 people worry about, like you said, you know, us money 141 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:42.160 leaving the US to go find better regulatory environments. But 142 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.439 don't forget there's also the opportunity to have all of 143 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:49.120 the world's money come to the US markets right, and 144 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:50.839 as long as we don't have our act together, I 145 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:52.879 get specific examples as we go deeper. I know you 146 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:54.639 want to talk about SEV one twenty one and stuff 147 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.839 like that, but if we don't get our act together, 148 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:02.279 that money doesn't come to the US, which otherwise by default, 149 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:07.399 we have the strongest, best, safest markets here today. It's 150 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:07.959 our solution. 151 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:12.240 Yeah, absolutely, And on that note, we'd slop one two one. 152 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:16.399 I want to get your thoughts, And obviously your POV 153 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:20.720 is very critical because you're working in the custody business. 154 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.839 You're helping to custody institutions and many other folks. What 155 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:28.120 are your thoughts in the situation? One the repeal and 156 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.680 Biden vetoed it, and it seems to be still something 157 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:34.159 that's working its way through the House that they may 158 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:36.080 try to get it back up. I know there was 159 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:40.879 the vote to overturn Biden's beach it didn't go through, 160 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:42.919 but there are some bills that may solve it. But 161 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:45.320 what are your take what's your take on this entire situation. 162 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.279 Look, I think there's been a coordinated effort from the 163 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:55.279 Biden administration to lock down crypto and SAB one twenty 164 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:58.720 one has been what they've put in the front as 165 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:02.840 kind of the lightning rod. Attention. Look, Gary Gensler, you know, 166 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:06.919 at the SEC has been controversial in crypto, certainly struggled 167 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:10.080 on a bunch of fronts. By creating SAB one twenty one, 168 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:14.080 they continue to put the lightning rod on him. But 169 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:16.200 SAB one twenty one at the end of the day, 170 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:19.799 is a side show. It's not the real issue. Now, 171 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:21.639 before I go deeper, I want to I want to 172 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:23.679 make it clear. I don't think this is a political 173 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.000 issue for Democrats versus Republicans. This is this is a 174 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:30.320 political issue, but it's individuals, and there's only a few 175 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:32.600 of them, you know. So Joe Biden has made it 176 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:37.039 very clear he is anti crypto. You know, Elizabeth Warren 177 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:41.240 obviously is on that list. We've got Brad Sherman, We've 178 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:43.879 got Maxine Waters. We've got a few people here right 179 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:47.000 that are bad apples. And you know, by the way, 180 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:49.519 there's a there's a jeriatic problem with all of these 181 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:53.200 guys not understanding technology as well, which is interesting, but 182 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:56.679 we'll leave that for somebody else who's more expert on politics. 183 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:00.320 When it comes to SAB one twenty one, I think 184 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:02.840 they've consciously decided to make it look like it's all 185 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:06.480 the SEC's fault. But actually that's not the big steal, 186 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:08.960 because even if we were peeled SAP one twenty one, 187 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.799 the traditional banks would not be coming a non crypto 188 00:10:14.279 --> 00:10:17.039 And that's because there's actually three agencies that matter, and 189 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:20.879 the SEC is probably the bottom of the list. It's 190 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:22.480 certainly the bottom of the list when it comes to 191 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:26.279 supporting bitcoin as opposed to you know, other types of 192 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:28.759 crypto assets. So what I mean by that is the 193 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:32.879 three agencies that matter is the OCC, the FDIC, and 194 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:36.120 the SEC, and I would rank them in that order. 195 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:38.840 So the OCC is the Office of the Control of 196 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:43.039 the Control of the Currency. And remember under the previous administration, 197 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:49.679 Brian Brooks was the interim OCC Controller and under that 198 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:53.960 administration they made it available that crypto could there's a 199 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:57.440 path for traditional banks. This is Bank in New York Mellon, 200 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:01.480 this is State Street, this is JP Morgan, etc. To 201 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:03.519 be able to cuss see crypto. And of course, if 202 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.360 you want to de risk this industry, the number one 203 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:08.639 thing you should do is go and list the guys 204 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:10.879 that are the experts in risk. Right, So these are 205 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:13.279 the biggest institutions of America. They know how to do 206 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:17.000 it well. They absolutely should be invited into the ecosystem, 207 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:20.440 and Brian Brooks made that possible. Then we had a 208 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:23.399 new administration under Joe Biden come in and not a 209 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:27.600 single law was changed, not a single regulatory written word 210 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:30.639 was changed. And yet all of a sudden, the new 211 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:34.399 Comptroller of the Currency, and this is interim Comptroller, Michael 212 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:38.240 schu had a night and day, black and white, completely 213 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:44.519 opposite interpretation of the exact same regulatory and legal constructs. Now, 214 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:48.399 if this doesn't piss off Congress, I don't know what should, 215 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:52.120 because they have been made completely impotent by the administration. 216 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:55.799 And I don't believe that this makes good business. What 217 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:58.279 do we want in America? We want to have businesses 218 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:00.360 have a set of rules to comply with. You can 219 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:03.559 agree or disagree with them, but they shouldn't change just 220 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:08.120 because the President switches seats. Right, something written should have happened, 221 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.720 and yet nothing was written, and yet the policy went 222 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:13.799 completely in a different direction. This is a real problem 223 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:16.799 in the United States. This indicates that the US may 224 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:20.000 not be the bedrock of stability that it once was 225 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.720 when it comes to law. All right. So anyway, Office 226 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.720 of the cum Ful of the Country, Currency absolutely is 227 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:29.320 the gateway. They claim safety and soundness issues with regard 228 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.559 to bitcoin and digital assets, and they will not allow 229 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:37.159 any federal chartered bank today to touch crypto. So that's 230 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:39.600 a problem. Now. Even if you get past there, and 231 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:43.360 there's some good news, we've got a federal federal powers 232 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.120 versus state powers, there's a whole bunch of state powered 233 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:48.679 banks that are not governed by the occ they are 234 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:52.039 not regulated there. So look, a bunch of state chartered 235 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:55.919 banks are absolutely in on crypto. And for the most part, 236 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:59.120 you know, that does give us still some avenues into 237 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:02.159 the banking system, which is critical for building a great 238 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:07.759 ecosystem for the new wave of finance. But introduce the 239 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:12.799 FDIC also a federal agency. So obviously pretty much every 240 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.679 bank in America wants to be FDIC insured, and that 241 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:19.679 means they are subject to the scrutiny of the FDIC regulator. 242 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:23.600 FDIC regulator I Guy was his name, sort of the 243 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:29.080 g He might be retiring, he's pseudo retiring anyway, he's 244 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:32.360 been absolutely negative on crypto for quite some time. In 245 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:36.279 April twenty twenty two, he came out and said Gruenberg. Sorry, yeah, 246 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:38.879 that's his name. He came out in April twenty two 247 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:42.120 and said, if you guys are touching crypto any of 248 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:46.600 my regulated entities, If you're touching crypto, I'm going to 249 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.240 put you on extra scrutiny. I need more documentation. I 250 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:51.919 need to know exactly what you're doing. And basically what 251 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:54.679 he did is setting said, if you get into this 252 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.360 part of the business, your life is going to get harder. 253 00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:59.519 And every bank had to make a choice. And look, 254 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:01.840 they're trying to businesses just like everybody else, and they 255 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.399 want to participate in the future and what's up and coming. 256 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.159 Of course they do, but they've also got their mainline 257 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:12.519 business in traditional finance, and do they want to take 258 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:14.799 on that battle. So a number of state chartered banks 259 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.440 have dropped out as a result of the FDIC. And 260 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:20.200 then the guy at ranked third is actually the SEC. Now, 261 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.919 the SEC is critical if you're launching something that somebody 262 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.039 might determine as a commodity, I'm sorry, a security. Bitcoin. 263 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:30.519 You know, it's pretty much already been declared a commodity. 264 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.600 I think eth has now gotten the past as well. 265 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:35.600 I think it's now officially a commodity, even though it 266 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:37.120 kind of went up and down for a little while. 267 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.440 So the SEC is important for information disclosures, et cetera. 268 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:44.519 If you're building securities that one's still getting sorted out. 269 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:50.919 It looks like increasingly tokens sold as tokens are not securities. 270 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:53.039 It doesn't mean that they couldn't be sold or packaged 271 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:57.120 into security type products, which the CEC absolutely has purview over, 272 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:01.679 but in general, you know, anyway, they'll sort out. So 273 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.559 SAB one twenty one is down there. As you know, 274 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.720 the FIT twenty one bill, which starts to do much 275 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:12.919 more interesting things for crypto, which is introduce regulatory market structure, 276 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:18.039 which would actually greatly expand the safety and stability of 277 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:21.039 our markets that we trade on for crypto. It also 278 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:26.080 effectively neutralizes SAB one twenty one. So anyway, sorry that 279 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.600 was so long winded, but I think it's really important 280 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.559 for people to understand, like who are the federal agencies 281 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:35.159 that matter? And it's interesting to note that when a 282 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:38.039 new administration comes into power in the United States, he 283 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:40.519 pretty much immediately puts new people in charge of all 284 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.600 of those, right, So really what it comes down to 285 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.360 is whatever the president says goes. And this is why 286 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:49.960 in this electrical cycle it's so important to think if 287 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.440 you are a crypto voter, you have to be voting 288 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:57.120 for a president that's going to support crypto, and you know, 289 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:59.639 unfortunately the current administration just isn't it. 290 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.120 Mike, That's great inside because I didn't think about the 291 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:06.879 OCC and FDIIC. Everyone had their targets set on the SEC. 292 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:10.360 But it's a great context that even if this was 293 00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:12.679 a result from an SEC standpoint, you still have these 294 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:15.759 other two hurdles. A quick follow up question though, on 295 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:21.360 the handful of people, and aside from the geriatric layer, 296 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:25.039 why do you think they are so anti crypto? Because 297 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.960 even the younger Democrats in the House and some in 298 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.840 the Senate were you know, joined with the Republican colleagues 299 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.639 to repealself one to one to pass the FIT twenty 300 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:35.320 one bill out of the House. But you have this, 301 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.000 these handful of folks, and I'm scratching my head trying 302 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.200 to figure out, you know, is this a currency control issue? 303 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.320 Is it we can't properly understand or tax this, or 304 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:49.360 we don't control it, and that's why there's this Okay, 305 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.799 we're not going to allow you know, following Biden, Elizabeth Warren, 306 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:54.559 Brad Sherman, what do you think that is? 307 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.600 Look, it's a great question, and I predicated my statements 308 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:01.960 by saying this isn't a Democrat versus Republican thing. As 309 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.440 you just pointed out on fit twenty one, seventy one 310 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.400 Democrats voted for it. Like Actually, frankly, if there's any 311 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:13.240 party that philosophically should agree with like getting out crypto 312 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:15.759 to the people, it's the Democrats, right. I mean, these 313 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:18.039 are the people that I've always believed in pushed the 314 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.400 power back to the people, right, they believe they're open 315 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:26.000 for freedom, et cetera. Party alignment is strong. So the 316 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:28.960 fact that there's a few you know that don't like 317 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:33.960 crypto in Congress or in the White House shouldn't be surprising. 318 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:36.519 I mean, of course there's different points of view out 319 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:40.480 there now the individuals involved. Look, I do think that 320 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:42.559 age is a problem. I think they really have a 321 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:46.000 hard time understanding how new technology is going to fit 322 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:49.039 affect the world, and they're just afraid of it. And 323 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:51.000 I think this is something that you know, is not 324 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:53.799 specific to these individuals. I think it's it's a human 325 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:55.480 nature thing. You and I are going to go through 326 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:57.440 it as well. As we get older and older, we 327 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.119 will also become a little bit you know, grumpy and 328 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.680 be fuddled about whatever it is that's coming next. It's 329 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:06.640 kind of our destiny, all right, unless we live forever, 330 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:09.079 I guess, and then maybe maybe we forget that technology 331 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.880 will be okay. But you know, these individuals also happen 332 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.079 to be a little bit farther on the statist curve. 333 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.319 So there is a group of people that believe in 334 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.519 the absolute power of the centralized government, and they think 335 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:25.680 that what's best for the people is for the centralized 336 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:29.759 government to have control of all things. And it's very 337 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:32.359 interesting that, you know, when it comes to money, that 338 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.680 is the number one way that you can control people politically. 339 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.119 One great example we saw was with COVID nineteen. We 340 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:43.119 had the truckers protest, right, and this of course was 341 00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:46.480 in Canada, but Canada and the US are very similar here, 342 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.640 and Canada came out and said, we're going to freeze 343 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:53.599 the bank accounts of the truckers that are protesting. I mean, 344 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:56.200 this is an incredible thing to do, right, You're going 345 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.200 to attack somebody's finance the livelihood of not just them, 346 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:03.319 but they're family based on their political viewpoints and their 347 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.920 desire to protest against the government that they disagree with. 348 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:10.559 I mean, certainly good news is that was in Canada, 349 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:14.640 not the United States. But it's absolutely antithetical to you 350 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:19.759 know what I believe every American, every American patriot believes in. So, 351 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.799 like some of these folks that are status level people, 352 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:26.799 they very much want to have the dollar continue to dominate. 353 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.119 These are not financial experts. They do not understand free 354 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:34.079 markets per se. They do understand control, and they're afraid that, 355 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.880 you know, bitcoin will take away some of the control 356 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.119 that they have today with the dollar. It's true bitcoin will, 357 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:43.359 So they should be afraid of that if that's what 358 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:46.720 you're really afraid of. But if you are actually for 359 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:49.440 the people, if you actually want the people to have 360 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:51.960 power and so that the banks to have power, then 361 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:54.640 of course you should believe that people should have the 362 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.799 right to access to money. They should have private access 363 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:00.559 to money. You shouldn't be judged based on your trans actions. 364 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.160 The government shouldn't be able to supervise all of it 365 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.599 through a CBDC. These are just very basic things. If 366 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:10.599 you want to really give power to the people, So 367 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:14.279 all right, Anyway, we've got at least three different factions 368 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:17.039 we've talked about right here. Right We've got some at 369 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.759 the federal level that want to increase federal level federal 370 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:23.160 powers all the way up to centralization and statism. We've 371 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.119 got those that believe in strong federal powers, maybe not 372 00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:28.279 quite as extreme. And then the third, you know, where 373 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.000 should the state powers be with regards to banking. You know, 374 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.640 should the FDI see really have this ability to overlay 375 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.039 and influence all of the state banks, preventing them from 376 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:41.519 being able to compete in business, whether that's crypto, whether 377 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:45.839 that's gambling, whether that's you know, whatever your other unsavory 378 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:48.039 political topic may be. 379 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:51.880 You know, Mike, as crypto continues to get adoption and 380 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:56.319 we're seeing it become ubiquitous in politics and tradify, it's everywhere. Now, 381 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:59.240 I think, I zoom out, and I think, are we 382 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:02.759 in one of the these major inflection points in history, 383 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.279 kind of like the printing press right where it kicked off? 384 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:11.279 Just this whole new world and democratize things, And you know, 385 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.319 obviously with money and the movement of value with crypto, 386 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.640 and I'm like, I wonder what the world's going to 387 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:18.400 look like in a hundred years that these people are 388 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:22.599 fighting so hard, but we know disruptive technology always wins. 389 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.039 They may put up hurdles right and it slow us down, 390 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:30.119 but throughout history and civilization, disruptive tech always wins. It's 391 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:32.000 just fascinating. I feel like I want to write a book, 392 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:35.319 another book about it. 393 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:37.799 Look, technology has a way of just just winning, right. 394 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.039 I mean, it makes things more efficient for us, it 395 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:44.440 makes our lives better, and if the technology has value, 396 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:49.200 it will win. You know, when I was creating a 397 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.440 protocol called Speedy, which is what eventually became HTDB two 398 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.240 point zero. In the early days of starting to deploy 399 00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:00.319 that out and garner support to make it an actual stand, 400 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.119 there are a lot of naysayers and people are like, ah, Mike, 401 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:05.759