Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
an idea.
Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the.
Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I
tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.
Speaker 2: I put my hand on a book and made a.
Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.
Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.
Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.
Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
Speaker 2: I have a friend who likes to send me weird
shit in the man. We've known each other for forty
two years, went to high school together. He's one of
my favorite people and one of my best friends ever
in the whole world. And he knows my sense of
humor and I know his. So we are always sending
things to each other, and I just never know when
I'm going to open the mailbox and what the hell
is that? So I brought two examples. I got this
in the mail. It is a plastic black hand and
it's got a couple of little holes at the end
for mounting on the wall and it came with battery
powered candles. So the whole idea is you screwed the
hand into the wall and then it extends out like
you know, there's some dark thing that is reaching through
out of some other plane into this world, and then
it holds a candle. So I got that in the mail.
Thanks Cory, appreciate that. And here's the one I really
wanted to talk about. And I don't even know what
to make of this. It is a book, doesn't even
say who the author is. The book is titled how
to Talk to Your Cat about Gun Safety? What the hell?
Where does he find this stuff? Let's see, there are
several chapters how to talk to your Cat about abstinence,
online safety, drugs, puberty, post apocalyptic survival, Satanism, and there's
a whole chapter on evolution. I had to open this
up real fast. This is the kind of shit that
amuses me. And I don't know what this person or
these people's angle is. I don't know what they're saying,
but it says this. It says, who are the enemies
who seek to undermine my cat's faith in creationism? There
are two groups who have devoted themselves to impressing upon
our cats the myth of evolution, the puppets and their
puppet masters. Most of the people you encounter who advocate
for the die of evolution are nothing more than brainwashed sheep,
blindly parroting the lies spoon fed to them by Hollywood
Jews and an unholy coalition comprised of elements from the
United Nation, European Union, the Rothschild family, and the Builderberg Group,
a cabal of some of the wealthiest and most powerful
men in the world. Now, this is a riff on
deep state, So it makes me think that this is
probably a liberal who's sort of tweaking the Maga conspiracy theorist.
There is that whole white replacement theory. That part of
it is that the Jews want to take over the
banking system and replace white people, which is a strange
conspiracy theory. Is there a best age to speak to
my cat about the lie of evolution? It is never
too early to talk to your cat about evolution. Many
cat owners foolishly wait for their kittens to broach the subject.
This is bizarre. Are how to talk to your cat
about gun safety? Anyway? I'm going to be looking through
that tonight with a WTF moment, just bizarre, bizarre releasing
a video about Satanism and the Oreo cookie. Now there
is a demographic of people, it's not very big, but
do you know what, there are people out there pattern
seeking primates that were scanning the horizon for everything that's
got something that's got a sharp angle or a triangle
or something that looks like a cross, and before you
know it, they've spun up a crazy story about, you know,
how the devil has infected it. And we've seen the
devil infecting pretty much everything from the Boo Boo dolls
to rock and roll music to Saturday Morning cartoons to
I don't know well who said Prince Charles was the
Antichrist for that one recently. And there's a group of
people that think that Oreo cookies have symbols on them
which you're actually Satanic and they represent the Knight's Templar,
the Freemasons and other dark forces out there. And I
was fascinated, mostly because I wanted to use this fringe
example to get into the whole apaphenia and peridolia phenomenon.
Our pattern seeking evolved brains are always trying to put
shit together, and if you prime that with religious thinking,
you come up with all kinds of crazy stories. So
in order to finish the video, I wanted an oreo
to eat, so I bought a package of double stuff oreos.
So it's kind of a stinger at the end. I
pull out the cookie and I eat it. Haha, big
fun website videos over. There are two issues I have.
One is that, now what did I use? I think
I did two takes. Sorry, I did two takes, and
now I have the entire package of oreos left. So
I got to get these out of here because I
have no willpower. But my second issue is this. I
bought double stuff. If anybody remember when double stuff had
double stuff in it? What the what the hell is this?
What is that? That is not double, It's not double anything,
that's single stuff, and they are pitching it. They put
double on the label. You lie, you lie, you deceive.
Maybe you are of the double What the hell? I'm
putting something in the chat. I'm doing a survey the
correct way to eat an oreo. Do you eat it
whole or do you do the twist? And then you
do the filling out of the mill a filling in
this case is not double, it is single. That's still
good filling. I am a twister and cream eater. That's
the only proper way to eat the or I mean,
the debate really is over, but you can go ahead
and you can sound off if you want. Other people
do dunk it and milk, et cetera. What else has
been going on recently? Phone lines are wide open. Whatever's
on your mind. Somebody told me once. I don't know
if it was just somebody made up a meme or
if they actually did it. But it was an all
stuff oreo where you bought it and all it was
was the big block of cream. Is that true or
is that just a joke that's been floating around online.
I don't know. There's a Mega stuff or there was.
The mega stuff should be double stuff because the double
stuff single stuff come a bunch of bullsoit just got
back from Calgary speaking at the weekend Reason event, the
next one on the calendar, No Illusions and myself. It
is the host of the Thinking Atheist and the host
of the Skating Atheists together on stage doing a tandem
show for the first time. It has gott to be
so much fun. We are right at fifty percent sold
out with two months ago, so we know this sucker
is going to be a house and you need to
be there if you're anywhere near Cincinnati on the eleventh
of July. It's gonna be a three hour thing. We're
each going to do a presentation and then we're gonna
like engage and we're gonna give shit away from the
stage and it's just gonna be fun. It's gonna be
a good time. If you want to be a part
of that, you can go to the Thinking Atheist dot
com slash events and you'll see a link to that,
and then all the other stuff that's coming up. It's
nanocone on the horizon. We've got Baja Con in Sarnia.
We've got Rocket City Reason, the World Humanist Conference is
on the way, the Freedom from Religion Foundation event later
on this year, the Secular Student Alliance is having their conference.
A lot of good stuff happening around the country and
across the border into Canada. I was nervous going to
Calgary because you know, it's Calgary, It's Canada. What are
they gonna think about us Americans. I'm guessing most of
them are not big fans and customs officials are not
known for being super light, happy, happy, joy joy people anyway,
at least they don't display a lot of humor. I
thought about there is a T shirt that you can
wear and it says I didn't vote for him or
I'm very sorry about him or something, and it says
it in every major language in the world all over
the shirt. That's the design, and I thought about wearing that,
but I was informed that Calgary is actually like one
of our red states, and there is the phenomenon there
they call it maple Maga, where there are a lot
of Trump lovers in this part of Canada, and the
rest of the country talks about this, and I'm like, really,
and it's true, and this is how I know it's true.
So Natalie and I took a couple of extra days
and we went to BAMF BAMF National Park, one of
the most beautiful places I have ever seen. We'd rarely
get to travel together. Both needed to one plug. Decompress
goes someplace where the land isn't flat and the water's
not brown. Get the hell out of Oklahoma and go
to the mountains. So there we are in the Rockies
and we got a hotel that had an outdoor pool
and hot tub. Well, I I don't like to swim really,
but the hot tub sounded amazing. So we put on
our suits and we go out and we're sitting in
this hot tub outside with a mountain backdrop, and it's bliss.
It is amazing. Then another couple shows up. They're both
probably low to mid thirties. She's got the long blonde hair.
He looks like Vin Diesel with a beer belly. He's
got the tats all over, and they're both hanging out
in the said there are two hot tubs, so they're
over in the one next to us, and before you
know it, she strikes up a conversation. Hey, what are
y'all doing here? Where are you from? And we're like, oh,
we're from Oklahoma, USA. And then we I did this
joke a dozen times. I said, we're kind of tempted
to ask for asylum while we're here. There was some
nervous chuckling, and then I remembered we're in Maple Maga Country.
So now I'm wondering what are we in for as
far as a reply, and they're like, yeah, yeah, things
are wow, So what do you think about what's going
on down there. Now this is bait, right, They're trying
to figure out where we're coming from. So where Natalie
just went off. I'm sitting there trying to relax. I
don't want to talk politics. I'm in the hot tub
on vacation. She goes full pitbull on Trump and we
talk a little bit about how wow, you know, we're tempted.
We'd like to live north at the border up here
at least Mark Karney sounds like he's much more centered
adult in the room who more represents our values. And
the guy Vin Diesel, he looked up and he says,
you know, I'd like to take Mark Karney out into
a field and shoot him. Natalie and I froze, and
the loathing on his face it was bizarre. Well, it
turns out he works in the oil and gas industry.
I'm guessing this is like a blue collar culture that
is like drill, baby, drill, and he's part of the
Maple Maga community. Do they call it a not a
prime minister, who's the one who were the local governors?
They don't call them governors. But things got very uncomfortable,
and we finally, you know, parted ways and went back
to our respective rooms. And I was talking to Natalie,
and I'm like, imagine the loathing that you feel that
you disagree with someone on something, even something that means
the world to you, and your first thing, the first
thing you say to a total stranger, is I would
like to take them out to a field and execute
them with a gun. Now, I feel very strongly about
a lot of horrible people, and I have used the
word hatred in regard to a few if I'm just
being honest, and I don't feel that I'm a hateful person,
but I feel hate. Under no circumstances do I want
to live in a world where I would execute the
people that I despise. And I certainly wouldn't lead with
that in a conversation with strangers who are on vacation.
So what does he say among his friends? What's he
really like with his friends? It's got to be that
times fifty. Apparently the group in the there's a group
in the Calgary area that wants to secede from Canada
and become their own little micro nation. What's that about?
Because we've got secessionists in the United States. Just blows
my mind.
Speaker 3: Boom.
Speaker 2: These people just needed you need some Oreos up there.
The truth is, I have an affection for the Oreo,
but it's not a great cookie. You know, It's not
like you're going to the local shop and you know
they've just come out of the oven and you smell
the freshly baked chocolate chip and Oreo raisin cookie. I mean,
you know this is it's pretty dry. You know, the
cream itself is not amazing, but there's something about it
that takes me back to a very cherished moment in
my childhood and when Oreos were kind of a big
deal and I still eat them. I got to get
rid of this package. Okay, what else was I going
to bring to your attention? So, speaking of Trump, and
I wanted to read this for you. I was watching
the latest screed that had come off of truth Social
and apparently it's come to light that there is an
assistant who a young attractive assistant who is either helping
him or they're using AI or something to write a
bunch of stuff. It. I don't know what's going on,
but I think it was forty or fifty truth Social
posts in a couple of hours in the overnight hours.
And this is so common that we've stopped even noticing
when it happens. It is so abnormal, and you know,
beyond the horrible things that he says and does, I
had another thought that I wrote into a Facebook post
and it was responded to so much that I went
ahead and translated it to substack and I'll just read
it really quickly. It's titled the World's Emptiest Man. It says,
beyond the fact that America's twenty fifth Amendment obviously has
no trigger, and beyond the sane washing of softball media headlines,
I'm interested in what Trump's truth social tirades reveal. His
dozens and dozens of rants a night, often in the
middle of the night, spill out of his swollen fingers
like the tantrum of a spoiled only child. They're remarkable
in that there's so manic, awful and constant Gavin new scum,
low IQ stupid people. And of course there are those
AI videos of the Obamas as monkeys and the fighter
jet fantasy with a crown, Trump dropping feces bombs on
no Kings protesters. Now I'm not a trained psychologist, but
my mental picture of the midnight Mango is one of
constant unrest, agitation, and emptiness. He seems to have no friends,
no meaningful conversations, no human interactions that aren't transactional or adversarial.
His heart is a sieth, with each fresh suck up
of praise almost instantly draining away and requiring the next
refill when no sycophants are nearby. He worships himself, posting
golden idols, ai hero characters of himself himself on Rushmore,
and claims of greatest in history. Now I'm sorry, greatest
in history. Accomplishments in total contrast to reality. Even the
joy quote unquote joy that Trump gets from his sexist,
racist insults and revenge doesn't create any real satisfaction. His
world is a swirling eddy where flailing leads in circles,
and so he splashes louder and harder until exhausted in
misery before his next round of spasms. In my life,
I have never seen anyone so devoid of basic humanity.
I've seen Trump's smirk, I've never seen him laugh. I've
heard words of ego, but never words of empathy. I've
watched a man compensating for his micro's smallness with fantasies
of Kim Jong ill, statues of himself, and the world's
most visible places. It's almost as if he wants physical
objects to constantly affirm a greatness he knows he will
never possess. The man might have bettered the world with
his privilege, influence, and resources. He might have enjoyed the
company of friends, known the gift of outward facing love,
and reap the satisfaction that comes when you've made a
positive ripple in the human see instead is a toddler
in a tie, power without perspective, a human without humanity,
And when he finally passes away, his one contribution to
bettering the world will be his absence. People seem to
respond to that, You know what, I'll pace the sub
stack in the chat if anybody else wants to have
it and share. Anybody else feel that, Like, when's the
last time you saw him laugh at a joke or
be jovial or high five people and say something Jenner,
someone mentioned the fact that he doesn't have a dog.
I'm not sure I trust a president who doesn't have
a dog and knows how to play with the dog.
You know what, I'm saying, That's just me? What else
was I going to mention, Oh lucky us, we've got
a new virus. It's not new, but we've got a
new outbreak that we get to be aware of as
the centers for disease control have been dismantled and or compromised.
And the guy running the health situation in the United
States is the brainwormed anti vaxxer, who is just the
creepiest ass dude, one of them creepiest ass dude on
the planet. So now the hand to virul I don't
know anything about the hantavirus, so I looked it up.
Hantavirus is an infection caused by a group of viruses
that spread to humans through exposure to infected urine, saliva
and droppings from rodents. Initial symptom chills, fever, headache, nausea,
abdominal pain, vomiting, and diarrhea. In the Western Hemisphere, hand
to virus can cause hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, which causes symptoms
like shortness of breath and cough that may lead to
respiratory failure and death. In Europe and Asia, hantavirus can
cause hemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome. This may cause internal bleeding,
low blood pressure, and kidney failure. And they say one
of the ways to prevent it is to keep rats
and shit out of homes. Ano they're enclosed spaces, clean
everything with bleach. And I guess, don't join a rat
infested cruise ship. Like, were there rats on the cruise ship?
I haven't seen. I don't know, But anyway, that hand
to virus. So now we've got the same president who
totally dropped the ball on COVID and now we got
hand to And I guess they have finally evacuated everybody
up off the cruise ship. But what are the implications there?
You know, you and I have seen that, especially in
the United States, we are a culture where people love
to talk about freedoms, but nobody wants to talk about responsibility.
So we say, well, there's a mandated vaccine and there's
a mandated mask. People lose their minds and they're like
a freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom,
And then they wave a flag and probably invoke the
name of God, and you are like, that's inventile, right.
You have freedom, but the society that has given you
that freedom requires a measure of societal responsibility. What are
you going to do to keep your community in that
society safer, And yet I'm surrounded. It's so selfish and
so myopic. It's like freedom, freedom, as if freedom is
a conversation stopper. All you have to do is say
the word freedom and liberty and immediately everybody else is
supposed to just tucktail and run. I swear, it's just crazy.
There was something else on my little people. Oh, I
don't mean to make the whole monologue about Trump, but
we got to talk about Australia. Have you seen this article?
So there's a proposed a proposed Trump tower that was
supposed to go up in Australia, all right, the very
first Trump tower was going to go up down Under.
And the CEO of a property group which was involved
said that, you know, with the Iran war and with inflation,
and with the rants and the you know, the pettiness
and the dismantling of democracy and the assault on essentially
democracy and decent decency worldwide, with all that shit going on,
we think his brand has become too toxic for us
in Australia. So we are pulling the plug. It is beautiful,
It's beautiful. Ninety one store. It was going to be
the International Hotel and Tower Gold Coast would be billed
as Australia's tallest tower, two hundred and eighty five rooms,
a luxury hotel, high end retail restaurants, residential apartments. You
know that shit's going to be covered in a gold glaze.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: The more expensive we try to make shit look, the
cheaper it looks. If you've seen the Oval Office, the
Oval Office looks like a bad TV set for a
televangelist begging for money. The lord wants you to send
in your coin, which also brings me to the Trump
phone phenomenon. How many thousands and thousands of people paid
five or six hundred dollars for this Donald Trump phone
cell phone and if they had read the fine print,
it says, well, actually there's a chance we won't even
deliver the phone to you, but thank you for the money.
How do you milk sheep? Awesome, It's just all I mean,
that's just shaden freud right there. If you're stupid enough
to send five six hundred dollars to Trump for a phone,
and it tells me you haven't done any of the
other research on any of the other business endeavors that
he's done. You have no idea what he's like. You
have no idea that he has no scruples. You know,
or you don't care. You deserve to lose the money.
This is stupid tax. One more thing that was on
my little pe brain. We've talked a lot about AI. Now,
I'm going to preface this by saying that I have
used AI for images and much earlier. I used it
a lot because I was ignorant of the power drain
and the energy crisis and all these other concerns. And
then we got into the conversations and you've heard me
have them about how we are removing from the equation
human artists and handing things over to machines to give
us what people are calling AI slop, and I think
that's a fair criticism. I have been a few occasions
where I cannot find what I need from people, like
even on the stock image sites that I use, there's
just not something that is correct. But I really needed
it done, and I have resorted to use AI and
it's worked fine. In a recent speech that I gave
that I'm going to release in the next few months,
where I talk about white Jesus I needed an image
of me in a crown of thorns wearing the robe
like Jesus. I did use AI for that. That was
a few months ago, and I have been using it
occasionally to clean up old photos that are just too
mucked up to put in an online video, whether the
original photographer had it out of focus, or whether there's
not an original and only these bad duplicates exist. I
have taken an image. In fact, I did it for
a speech. I did it for the Oreo video. There
was an old image showing the Knight's templar symbol and whatnot,
but it was just too grainy and low res and
I wasn't able to reproduce it. I wanted to use
the original. I was able to take it, throw it
into AI, and it brought it back to me crisp
and clean and fully high rest. And I will say
I've used it unless there's another option. Occasionally I will
find myself going that way. But AI's power drain is
becoming a real, real, real problem, and I'll admit that
as I've admitted that I've used it occasionally, maybe I'm
part of the problem. But Forbes just posted an article
that said this a Gallop survey released Wednesday shows that
seventy one percent of Americans are somewhat or strongly opposed
to the building of AI data centers in their area,
mostly out of concern for the environmental impact. That number
is higher than the fifty three percent of respondents who
said they would oppose the building of a nuclear plant
in their area. People would rather have a nuclear power
plant than an AI data center in their yards or
in their neighborhoods, or in their communities. That's fascinating to me.
And I'm one of these guys. I'm a fan of
nuclear power. I take it in the teeth out there
when I say that people lose their minds. But as
the more I learn about nuclear power, I know Three
Mile Island, and I know Schernobyl, and I know that
when does that when shit goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
But if you look at nuclear in the macro and
then we look at the fossil fuel industry as a
whole as well, I mean daily, daily, daily pumping of
carcinogens into the whole of the world, I just think
nuclear is a good option. So anyway, I just think
you would how would you feel if they were proposed
a nuclear power plant by miles from your house. Would
you freak out? And at the same time, do you
have a power plant with big smokestacks that are pumping
black smoke into the atmosphere twenty four to seven that
you're breathing for the whole of your entire life and
you don't even blink. This is an interesting conversation. Let
me have it in the comments section and let me
hear your thoughts as we go to the phones and
we will take those calls next. Thank you so much
for listening, and thanks for your support on patreonpatreon dot
com slash Seth Andrews. As we go to the phones, Andy, Hi, Andy,
are you there?
Speaker 4: I am here, Seth. How you doing.
Speaker 2: I'm well, let's talk what's on your mind?
Speaker 4: We have this Christian Nationalist rally on the National Mall
this weekend. I'm just wondering, do you remember the reason
rallies back in twenty twelve and twenty sixteen.
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I was there.
Speaker 4: There are good times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a lot of fun. I've got videos
on both of those events. I sure do.
Speaker 4: I just find it so disheartening that at one point
we had the largest gathering of free thinkers are there
on the National Mall, and now we're going to have
this rally full of hate. I'm sure it's just going
to be horrible and I don't even know what to
think about what it's going to be like. But I'm
just very disgusted with the way things are going, and
I don't know what to think about.
Speaker 2: Well, the difference is is that the reason rally was
privately organized and privately funded. The one in twenty eleven
was massive. I think it's right. It was right on
the edge of sort of the new atheist phenomenon. It
was a huge deal. Twenty sixteen wasn't nearly as successful.
It was still a great time, but you know, it
was a privately funded thing, and a privately organized thing.
Where you know we're talking about now is essentially gileadded
to state church. It is a governmental Oh yeah, And
you're right, it's going to be filled with bile and
hate and accusations and venom, and you know, the love
of Jesus is not going to be present. They might
say the word love, but it's going to be a
hate rally for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just it's the same. We couldn't keep that
whole reason rally thing going, But it's going to be
decades before we're at a point where something like that
could be organized again.
Speaker 2: I think I think the novelty too kind of wore off.
It was an event, it happened. It was kind of
a woodstock for freethinkers. But you know, the word atheist
became a bit more normalized, at least in the general sense.
There are free thought conventions and gatherings all around the country.
So this idea of a major event, now, given the
galvanizing nature of recent events, would a reason type rally
be more attractive as a statement against you know, this
encroachment of the project twenty twenty five people, there might
be a greater sense of urgency, But I'm not sure
you can recreate twenty eleven again. But I welcome any
opportunity for free thinkers to get together and celebrate science
and reason. We certainly need more of it in this
crazy country. So thanks for calling very much, Andy, I
share your frustration. We'll, you know, we'll just keep trying
to keep America secular as best we can.
Speaker 4: All right, Good luck, sir, Thank you brother.
Speaker 2: We'll see you later. I've got Stephanie dialing in three
six zero. Hi, Stephanie, are you there?
Speaker 6: Yes, I am, thank you, sir. I was listening to
a show earlier and they were checking by AI. He
was tucking by AI and how everyone jobs will be
taken away, and I totally agree with that, but that
is where.
Speaker 7: We are headed.
Speaker 2: If you in a job like me, Let's say I
was writing a book. Well, apparently now there are people
who are putting a few ideas into a chatbot and
it's writing a chapter for them, and instead of a
copy editor, and I pay a copy editor who is amazing.
Her name is Jessica, and she runs a media company
and she's a master of what she does. But now
if I use chat, GPT or whatever to copy edit
a future book, then I've taken her gifts out of
the equation and she loses revenue and an opportunity to
remain relevant. We have AI voiceover now where they'll emulate
your voice. They can sample your voice, even against your will,
and they can use it to narrate books. Audible dot
com is now saying would you like to sample your voice?
And so then whenever you publish the text version, the
audiobook can be automatically generated This takes narrators out of
the employment pool. We've got artists being replaced by AI,
these limited language models, and these things are going out
spidering and grabbing little bits and pieces of other people's
art to make something new. It's why they call it slop.
We've got the AI, the oligarchs who are pushing AI,
who are now laying off a massive percentage of their
organizations because AI is doing what people used to do.
I think that the technology itself is remarkable, but I
think it should be used to better our experience, to
make humans better at what we do. We're better at
human ing using the technology, and the technology should not
replace things that humans should be focusing on anyway. Now
do I know what the future holes. I do not,
but I have some hope and a lot of concern
about the implications, mostly because we're moving so freaking fast
without any real consideration, which is what human beings do,
and it's certainly what the oligarchs do. They don't give
a shit about the consequences to humanity. This is all
like a big toy. It's a money making toil. What
they think is a money making toy until the bubble
breaks and the investors lose millions, and then that shit
gets crazy. So it's complicated, Stephanie. But I know we've
got our eyes on it, and I don't know what
the right answer is, except you know, we should be
using technology. Technology should not be replacing us.
Speaker 6: I completely agree. No job is safe. Everything that humans
can do well, robots or some sort of automation can
do it better, or they think better, not necessarily better,
because chat bots and AI they lie, they.
Speaker 8: Like you, and they do it.
Speaker 6: Wrong sometimes, either intentionally or not. I don't know. I
don't know. Well, Okay, well that's pretty much I had.
Speaker 2: Well, Stephanie, thank you for the call very much, and
you're greatly appreciated.
Speaker 6: Okay, well, thank you.
Speaker 2: All right, we'll see you have a good one. Bob
is dialing in on a web call. Hi, Bob, what's
on your mind?
Speaker 4: Hey?
Speaker 2: How are you the last caller?
Speaker 9: I guess it was the caller previous to this caller
I had mentioned, you know, the Christians that were coming down,
and I guess from a secular perspective, you know, he
had invoked things like hate and quite a few other
moral claims. I don't necessarily understand what would actually be
wrong with that though, on an atheistic.
Speaker 2: Worldview, atheism isn't a worldview. So are you asking me
how we would know or why we would care if
something was hateful?
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, I guess the I don't want to
get hung up on the atheism isn't a worldview because
if I asked you if you believed your own worldview,
you would have to tell me yes. And that worldview
is one in which you would say that God doesn't exist.
Speaker 2: I'm a humanist. That's a worldview. I don't believe in
a God. Is not a worldview, and I don't think
that's being pedantic. I think that's just using terms correctly.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 2: I'm a human is that speaks to my values? Atheism
does not.
Speaker 9: Yeah, And maybe the issue I would have with that is,
I guess I view all worldviews as having at least
three categories, and I would say that those categories are knowledge, ethics,
and metaphysics. And I think from those three categories the
rest of your worldview basically fleshes out.
Speaker 2: So well, you can make that assertion, but it doesn't
mean that it is distilled down to those three things.
And then you've got to define metaphysics and that's a
jello that you're not going to be able to nail
to the wall. This idea that I don't know what
hatefulness is because I'm an atheist, I totally reject. In fact,
I understand I have an evolved ethical center. I understand
what harm is, how it would feel done to me,
how hatefulness would feel on my end, and I understand
when someone is speaking hatefully about someone else. I don't
need that assigned to me by a third party. I
don't need some objective moral standard bearer to spell it out.
Pretty basic, I understand what harm and hate looks like,
and I don't need a god to do it. That's fair,
isn't it. Well.
Speaker 9: I think the part that I disagree with you on
is yes, I think that you could say that I
deem this thing to be harmful, or this thing, I
deem this thing to be hateful. The issue that I see,
at least with the atheistic perspective, is well, there doesn't
seem to be anything that you can ground that in
to say that that's just not your personal preference, right, So,
if there is somebody that is hateful or somebody that
wants to harm you, it seems to me, the only
thing that they're actually doing is just overwriting your personal preference.
And I guess what would make your personal preferences more
valid than theirs.
Speaker 2: I don't think that I don't hold necessarily to objective ethics,
but I don't think that the idea of harm is
completely subjective and arbitrary. I don't think that stabbing you
in the chest is right simply because I've decided it's right.
I mean, there are aberrations out there where somebody might
have a distorted view of the world. But I think
human beings on the whole understand that harm is simply harm.
And the implication beyond that is that I can't properly
know unless I believe in God, or I'm shoplifting a
moral standard from a specific religion. Are you religious, Bob?
Are you invoking a certain God or representing a certain faith?
Speaker 9: Well, I am Christian, but I guess from your response
though it was more of a descriptive claim, right.
Speaker 2: Like, hang on, Bob, I'm giving you plenty of rope here.
But it can be argued that Christian who says that
whatever God says defined my morality is or could be,
and certainly in history has been guilty of huge harm
saying that it was moral to do. So we're not
just talking about the Crusades, you know, the torture chambers
of the Crusades, etc. The burning of the people at
the stake for heresy, etc. The witch trials and all
of these types of thing. I mean, throughout history, we've
seen tremendous harm done and excused by the belief in God,
specifically the Christian God in this case, and it could
be argued that, hey, wait a minute, you actually surrendered
an innate and evolved moral ethical center in favor of
an externally handed out edict based on an archaic religion,
and that is an abdication of moral responsibility.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 9: I think my contention was that would be God didn't
command the Crusades. That was man made, and that seems
to me the perfectly logical and reasonable that man is
going to corrupt certain things, right, that's within the Christian purview.
Speaker 2: All right, So if someone does something horrible in the
name of religion, it's not God's fault. But if someone
does something good in the name of religion, that's God's plan.
Is that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 9: No, that's not what I'm saying because I can make
the same argument that you just made back to you
and say that there's plenty of examples in secular societies
where you know who look at Stalin or Mow that
led to the death and destruction of millions of people. Right,
But you would probably tell me that that's not really
tie to secular ethics. That's tied to the people. And
it seems like what you're trying to do is say
these people did bad thing, therefore that's on God.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 9: I think that you and I might see eye to
eye on that that just because people do bad things,
it doesn't necessarily tie back into their ethical system.
Speaker 2: It sounds like you and I are talking about human
beings doing what human beings do far better and far worse.
I've never said, and I don't think you were inferring
that I am saying that everything that human beings have
done is moral because they say it's moral. But I
simply reject this idea that religious people get a kind
of moral equity because they invoke the name of God.
Most of them live entirely secular lives anyway. They clock
in at church, but they drink and cuss and fuck
and do everything that everybody else does, and they are
just as likely to be affected by this tumultuous world
as anybody else. I would argue that we are all
doing our best, or most of us are doing our
best to try to make good decisions, to try to
minimize harm and maximize joy, and there aren't simply no
gods needed to be able to do that. Now, being
a Christian works for you. You know, you have every
right to believe, but you don't have any sort of
moral high ground as opposed to secular people. In fact,
we find throughout across the planet, the more secular societies,
whether it's counties, states in the Union here in the
United States, or more secular nations around the world, you
will find the less religious they are have a greater
quality of life. The more their crime rate goes down,
the better their life expectancy goes up, and the overall
fulfillment level rises as well. This is totally counterintuitive to
the religious claim that you know, morality must come from
God for the benefit of human experience. We find the
least religious cultures are actually doing a whole lot better
on the whole. I think that's pretty exciting. You don't
need a God to have goodness.
Speaker 9: I think I would agree with the first part of
your premise. I'm not saying that because people have God
therefore they are moral, which I think is what you
were trying to say, and I completely agree with you
on that.
Speaker 2: I think. No, no, no, what I was hearing is is
that you're saying people who don't have God don't truly
have a barometer for morality. That's what I heard.
Speaker 9: No, I'm not saying that either, Okay, because obviously, from
my worldview of God exists, you have the same moral
standard that I do. What I'm saying is in the
absence of God, and I can look at from an
atheistic perspective. If there is no God, to me, there
is no moral standard which says this thing good, this
thing bad. So from that perspective, even saying something like
harm is bad to me is incoherent, right, Because if
from my perspective, I can cause people harm and I
can get what I want, there's nothing I can see
that's invalid about that outside of I'm overwriting your personal
preference of not harming you.
Speaker 2: But what benefits the species benefits me. Right. If we
look back in the African savannah and we see someone
who was acting in antisocial ways, that person likely would
not survive. Right, There was an evolutionary benefit in pro
social behaviors. You lived longer, you were able to procure resources,
you were safer, and you were happier. And this has
been coded into us genetically. We as a species are
more often wired for pro social behaviors. I know what
it feels like to get punched in the jaw, right,
I know what it's like to be the victim of
a crime, and I simply don't want that for me,
and I understand the implications of that for someone else.
To me, this is not complicated. Understanding the concept of
harm for me isn't really a sticking point. I think
we most of us understand what harm truly is, and
so you know, I think you and I simply stand
apart on our perspective on whether or not we can
understand harm outside of a god concept.
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I don't think that's the argument that I'm
making that we can't understand harm. The argument that I'm
making is a little bit deeper than that.
Speaker 2: I think you're saying, why is harm.
Speaker 9: Wrong to begin with? Right? Because you brought up I don't.
Speaker 2: Think you're hearing me. I understand I have a system
of right and wrong, and I'm able to base it
on an evolved ethical system. Understanding what harm is allows
me to say harming is wrong. And while there are
aberrations among secular people, there are also people who have
harmed and used their God as an excuse to harm
or hate or whatever. But ultimately we are coming back
to a human being, the human mind and heart, and
that's where I fall.
Speaker 9: Okay, but isn't that begging the question?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 9: If your morality comes from evolution, right, you've evolved this way,
there's nothing that says that that evolutionary process is geared
at any sort of truth. So you're basically saying, hey,
we evolved this way because by my doing so, we're
able to work in a community and you know it helps,
like I'm assuming it would be something like human flourishing.
But if another tribe came over there and killed all
the males and enslaved the women because that helped their
human flourishing, it would just seem to me from your perspective,
they haven't done actually anything wrong outside of just override
your preference of harm.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I can overstate how insulting that statement is.
By the way, if you want to talk about going
into a city and killing the men and enslaving the women,
let me introduce you to the biblical Old Testament.
Speaker 9: Yeah, but what's wrong with that? From your outside?
Speaker 8: I cannot be.
Speaker 2: More clear than I've been. I cannot be more clear
to you.
Speaker 9: Say it harm?
Speaker 2: Understand I see, I understand what harm looks like and
how it feels.
Speaker 9: Why is that bad?
Speaker 2: It is bad because anti social behavior is bad for
the species, even if true altruism doesn't exist, And we
can have that discussion, an argument that the idea that
I would not know that stabbing and shooting and raping,
et cetera, are wrong because it's all, well, you know,
if it benefits me, then it is moral. And yet
if I was a true Christian, then I would be
able to have that bar so I would know the
good from the evil. I find that, honestly, I'm making
it is you are a Christian, You are a Christian.
You're straw man, And you were saying atheists, how do
they know? How do they even label something as harmful?
Speaker 9: I'm not saying how they know. I don't think you're
straw manning my argument, I'm not what I'm saying is well,
let me try to restate my argument, but that.
Speaker 2: One more time. I've given you fifteen minutes, but go
ahead one more time.
Speaker 9: From my perspective, it seems that atheism just boils down
to moral relativism. It has nothing to do whether or
not you know what right or wrong are. It's just
that everything boils down to moral relativism. So if it
is all moral relativism, and you encounter somebody who has
a diametrically opposed worldview to yours, it doesn't seem to
me that you could say to that person that their
view is invalid and that yours is valid.
Speaker 2: You're damn right. I can say it's someone says that
being what ramist and a murderer is moral. I can
say that, I under understanding what harm is, what it does,
how it affects people, the species, the planet I live on,
I can then assess and understand that this antisocial behavior
is a net negative, not just for the species, but
for the plane on which I live. And I can say, no,
I've evaluated what this brings, what it takes away, what
the consequences are, and I can say this is demonstrably bad.
I just don't buy the whole moral relativism thing. I
don't think and what you're attaching, and even if you're
not saying it out loud is I'm a Christian. Therefore
I do have a greater basis for assigning ethical behavior
and non ethical behavior, knowing the difference, because an objective
moral standard bearer has told me so. I mean, you've
brought that to the party, even if you haven't led
with it here, and you and I simply stand apart.
Speaker 9: Okay, A fair eneh, thank you, Bob, appreciate I have
a response to it.
Speaker 2: But we can take off, all right, We'll see you later.
I don't think was I unclear? Was I unfair? I mean,
where do your morals come from?
Speaker 8: Is?
Speaker 2: He says that's not the question, But it's these are
adjacent at the very least. How do you know rape
and murder are wrong? Or how would if someone was
raping and murdering, would you be able to say to
them that what they were doing is wrong? It all
comes back to that objective moral standard argument, or a
riff on it. We don't understand harm because no one
there wasn't someone there who said raping is harmful. Well,
if you decide that raping someone is a benefit to you,
then it's moral to you. Well, okay, let me take
you back to the Christian Old Testament again. You say
it just doesn't work, none of it works. Was I
unfair in the comments section? You just tell me I
leave myself, I present myself prostrate? Wait, prostrate is the oregon?
I prostrate myself. I prostrate myself before you and ask
you to keep me accountable. Josh, just dialing in, Josh,
thanks for calling. What's up? Hey?
Speaker 7: First of all, I thought I was calling into the
thinking atheist that I think I called into the line
by accident. That was an incredible last call.
Speaker 2: That's okay, honestly, I don't mind somebody. It's nice to
mix it up, get a challenge. From time to time.
A lot of the callers on the line are so esoteric,
or they're just so often the weeds. I'm not even
sure how to respond. At least this was a conversation
I could engage in a little bit. But I'm glad
you're here, Josh. What's on your mind?
Speaker 7: Yeah? Well, first I wanted to say an update on
the hantavirus cruise ship. The couple that contracted hantavirus, they
got off the ship and went bird watching near a
landfill that was like near where the ship low them off,
and that's how they got cam.
Speaker 2: Ah. So this would explain what the rodents in the landfill.
Speaker 7: Yeah exactly. I was like you, I thought it was
rats on the ship, but it was rats in this land.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. Thanks for the clarification. Well, that's that's
information I didn't have, and I should have done more
diligence before I brought it up on the show. Thank
you for educating me. So it'll be interesting to see
you how the public responds to another public health crisis.
I'm not optimistic, Josh, are you No?
Speaker 7: In fact, I just watched John Stewart on The Daily
Show last night and his whole opening monologue was about
how the press is just trying to gin up another
trying to get the ratings juice from another you know,
coronavirus like scare.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, what else has happened in anything else?
Speaker 7: I was just going to tell you. So I've been
listening to you for about sixteen years, and it's a
real honor to get to talk to you. He kind
of helped me leave religion for good. I kind of
started to question it already, but I wanted to tell
you about this the very first thing that made me
kind of give the side eye to religion. So I
grew up in East Texas, in Paris, Texas, right on
the Oklahoma border. And I was at church after a
service and my youth pastor's wife was helping me set
up for something we were doing after and I told
her about how it had a bad night's sleep the
night before, and that every time I got to go
to the bathroom, it like something which would jump out
at me, or I would get spooked by something like
a shadow or something. And she looked at me with
zero irony. She had to have been like twenty four
years old at the time. She looked at me with
zero irony and said, those might have been demons trying
to get in your body. Holy, even at like thirteen
years old, I was like, do you really believe that
that's insane?
Speaker 2: There's demons? Well, you know they were probably did you
eat Oriole cookies, because it's possible that they infected your
house with demons. Apparently Oreo's back demon delivery device. It's
amazing the stuff that demons hitch hike on. I know
Pokemon had demons, he Man had demons. I think it
was Erica who had mentioned those La Boo Boo dolls.
I think they have horns on them, so they're obviously demonic.
There's so many demons to choose from, and now apparently
you've got to somebody warning you, dude. I am shocked
by how chained to the fears of the demonic many
of these believers are. Every shadow, every knock in the
middle of the night, every dissonant sound, everything somehow is
linked to the depths of hell. It's crazy. Yeah.
Speaker 7: I was born in nineteen eighty, so I was kind
of grew up in that satanic panic of the late
nineteen eighties where you know, Pair metal was evil and
they were backward masting messages and stuff.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so how did you escape? You were religious?
But what was your ticket.
Speaker 7: Out really was moving away from my small town to
go to college. And I started meeting different people and
counting different ideas. It's basically because my dad is a
trumper and it's like his worst nightmare, you know, the
whole thing at the Conservative movement talks about about colleges
being liberal bastions. I went to college and discovered there's
so much more and really started to question and dig in.
And then I think when I was thirty, I read
the entire Bible covercover, and then I read the entire
Quran cover coover, and I think two years later I
discovered your radio show.
Speaker 2: So, man, you're a veteran. I mean, I've only been
doing this for seventeen years, so you were there from
the beginning. Let me ask you this, Josh, before I
move on. Was the Qoran as much of a slog
for you as it was for me? Because it was
just so repetitious and so dry. I thought the Bible
was a chore, but the Koran was like sominex for me.
I don't know, did you struggle with Yeah?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I couldn't really make heads or tails of it,
you know, like when I did the Bible, I actually
read another book alongside it, like from a Christian perspective.
Explaining the Bible to me, I was like, I really
tried to give Christianity a fair shake. But with you know,
with the Kuran, I had no guide, So it was
just I was trying to like decide for it on
my own, which it's probably not the best way to
do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, I'm glad you bust it out. We
may have walked some of the same steps out there,
satanic panic and doubts and being introduced to the rest
of the world, and our families are looking around going
what the hell happened to our child kind of thing.
So yeah, right, well, thank you.
Speaker 7: Josh so much to let you go. But I really
appreciate you taking my call there.
Speaker 2: It's an honor. Thank you very much. We'll see you later.
I am the antithesis of what my parents intended. I
am not what was intended. Doesn't give me any joy
to bring them shame, you know, when they say you're
an embarrassment to the family, and I've heard those words.
I don't like that. I didn't want that. It's just,
you know, it's the collateral damage from living an authentic life. Man.
I'd rather live an authentic life and have collateral damage.
Plenty more people to talk to and plenty more show
to come. We will continue next. I am so glad
you're here. We are spending well over an hour mostly
just talking to members of this community about whatever's on
their mind. I've got Luke dialing in on a web call.
Thanks for your patients, Luke, are you there?
Speaker 8: Hi?
Speaker 9: That's that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad you're calling from the UK. Welcome
what's on your mind.
Speaker 3: I'm basically having some difficulties with my deconstruction. I'm raised
Catholic and been questioned my religion since about two thousand
and two. I'm openly gay and autistic, so when I'm
came to start deconstructing, it was a big challenge because
I was coming out at the same time, and obviously
being raised Catholic, I was struggled to some degree with
reconciling that all of the structure and moral upbringing that
have been brought with it. Up was being conflicted with
how I felt. And my younger brother has gotten married
in the last week in the registry office, and I'm
really pleased to him, but obviously my mom in particular
is very, very religious, and so I was a bit
It took me by surprise when I found out it
was going to be a non religious ceremony. So it's
come to me being questioned as to what I want
for myself from my partner. Basically, the last hole that
Mecatholicism has over me is about the afterlife and essentially
the prospect of reuniting with my family after I die.
And I've never quite managed to get over that kind
of last hurdle of just accepting nothing beyond this well,
because obviously it is a scary proposition for someone who's
basically expected that from a very young age. So I'm
just looking to have a see if there's anything that
you might be able to recommend as a help and direction, because,
like you say, I think that one scared of is
trying to go and decide whether I'm just agnostic or
if I am a spist, or if there's a spectrum
along which I can happily be kind of religious or spiritual,
or if I have to sort of basically like I say,
with my autism, I'd like some definition black and white
somewhere along the line.
Speaker 2: Yeah, ambiguity as hard, isn't it. I think there's this desire,
or maybe we feel pressure sometimes to run from a
marker to another marker. I need to come here where
I've got a clear definition, and here's the label that
defines this and this, and then I know exactly where
I am and I can put everything into categories, but
that's usually not life. Sometimes life is just freaking messy.
And my encouragement to you would simply be to give
yourself some grace, be patient. You don't have to call
yourself anything, and if you are unsure, that's totally valid.
I have a lot of compassion for religious people, especially
when they are struggling with two specific things. One is
the fear of hell. Took me a year and a
half to get over the fear of hell in my
own life, even after I use the word atheist in
regard to myself. This emotional baggage, this scarring, this fear,
thirty years of that didn't go away quickly for me.
And the other thing is, I think the fear of
death and the yearning to be reunited with the people
that we've lost because we missed them and there's a
hole in our lives. I think that deserves a lot
of compassion. I think, mostly for me, I've had to say, well,
do I see any evidence to believe it? Some people say, well,
I think there may be may we go on, and
they take some solace in that, whatever you know, I
myself say, have I seen any evidence that there is
a life beyond this life I have not. Okay, fine,
what do I do with that information? The first thing
is is I need to come to terms with the
fact that maybe life is finite. But in some ways
this is a gift because now if I think there's
no evidence for life two point zero, that means I know,
I need to focus on the moments here. I need
to maximize the relationships I have here, to say the
words that I should be saying in the here and now,
to set the goals and achieve the goals and not
waste my life. The second part of that is I'm
no longer living for dying. I'll say this about my father.
He was a Christian in every sense of the word.
He's the most Christian dude that I had ever known,
and yet he lived for dying. He was like, I
need to go and create converts. I need to go
and spread the gospel so more people go to Heaven.
I need to go and make sure that Jesus is
pleased with what I'm doing on this earth. And he
seemed to talk about Heaven and the Book of Revelation
all the time, and I realized at one point that
he's really living for dying. He's not focused on now,
He's focused on something out there that probably isn't even
out there. So while I don't have really a solution
to your challenge, I can encourage you to don't get
hung up on what you call yourself and don't beat
yourself up if you're not comfortable in a specific spot.
Life is messy. Things happen on a spectrum. There's an
ebb and a flow of fluidity to our existence. And
if you find comfort in this notion that, well, who knows?
Who knows? I mean, I told Natalie. Was it Christopher
Hitchins who said, you know, if there's an afterlife? He said, well,
I'd rather like surprises, And I think it's a lovely
way to kind of look at it. You know, it
turns on there's something else on that'll be an interesting thing.
We'll figure that out when I get there. But in
the meantime, I'm going to live in the here and now,
and I'm going to have to accept some hard truths
about those that I have lost and about the suffering
in this world. There's no evidence that Jesus is going
to come and mop up, right, so, but it helps
me to focus in on the here and now, and
you know, when you do that, I find that's a
much more fulfilling way to live despite the challenges. I
don't know if any of that helps you at all, Luke,
do you have any thoughts on my thoughts? Maybe you
can improve on them.
Speaker 3: I mean, you've really assured me and a lot of
what I had thought for myself. Like I said, I
have put it some you know over the twenty odd
years that I've bedekerstruct and come to live each day
as if it's my last and have every conversation as
honestly as possible because I don't know if it will
be my last. So it's all but in a positive
way to say, well, if I can affect Shadden whilst
I'm here, I'll do my best to do that. I
think it's just more, like I said, the fact that
my brother has gotten married and I know my partner's
team to do so that it's thrown a bit of
a hand grenade into my head. Well, I kind of
always grew up expecting a church wedding, which obviously, being Catholic,
I've already had issues over whether that would ever happen.
Might come along that it might be sympathetic and change things.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a little bit of a different conversation. And
forgive me if I missed it in the initial question.
You're saying, Okay, if we were to tie the knot
if I don't do it in the Catholic church? Is
this going to blow up in my face? Am I here?
Speaker 7: And that?
Speaker 6: I mean?
Speaker 3: Actually, I think I'm quite content that my mum is
actually quite progressive. This props the best word. She's very
religious of her own beliefs, but she doesn't push it
on anyone else. So the fact that she's told her
into my brother's choice to have a non religious wedding,
and like I said, was a shock to me, but
it was quite an eye opener. That's okay, she's not
going to have an issue with le doing that. And
I know my partner who comes from a Catholic family
as well, he's knows that his family be welcoming with
me if we formally get engaged and married and everything else.
Speaker 2: You know how I got around it. You know, I
wasn't going to have a religious wedding anyway, but we
went to a destination and got married in Alaska. So
I mean, honestly, if you wanted to cheat where you
could just sort of have plausible deniability. You could make
your wedding a destination wedding. You could come up with
a themed wedding. You could do it in a way
where it's purposeful and it's got, you know, some personality
to it. But you know it's not necessarily going to
get you into a theological conversations about marriage and Catholicism.
Speaker 3: I mean only the main reason I like the idea
of a church, but it was just to be around
beautiful old architecture. So my own prefers like sides that
that would be a library.
Speaker 2: I will say something that's going to make this audience crazy.
If you decided you wanted to get married in a church,
get married in a church, yeah, I mean doesn't mean
you have to buy any of the shit that they're
selling theologically, and it doesn't mean you you know, you
can still determine how the vicar or the priest, or
the bishop or whatever conducts the ceremony, and that would
be a caveat. But if that's how you want to
do it, it doesn't mean that you're a sellout or that
you would admit that God exists. You were looking for
a certain theme, vibe and aesthetic, and you got it
and then you got on with the rest of your life.
There's not really a wrong answer, Luke. Just decide what
you want and then do that. And you don't know
anybody else in explanation or apology. Okay, yeah, us right.
It's an honor to be able to chat with the
elut and I hope all goes well over in the UK.
Hanging there, okay, okay, thank you, see you later. Talent
is dialing in on a web call.
Speaker 8: Are you there, Talent, hell Seth, can you hear me?
Speaker 2: I can, indeed, what's on your mind?
Speaker 8: Well, I just want to first start off by saying
I'm calling from Mexico. I'm originally from Canada. And the
topic it's related to this kind of elitist attitude that
I think, and I don't include you in this, that
I think many Americans have had for many decades about
being this greatest and superior country in the world, and
of course, obviously with being the number one country in
the world economically. I mean, there's I guess some real
justifications behind it. But my area that I focus on
a lot is with respect to education and because so
many Americans for so long, We're able to develop and
have a good standard of living and live well even
without having a higher education because blue collar jobs paid
well and just a general American or American orginating is
the same would be true in Canada and probably some
other parts of the world, maybe the UK, that it
just gave many people. I think this idea that hey,
don't need to be a higher educated I just need
to be an American. I just need to have what
are considered might American Christian values, and that puts US
in number one in the world because America is the
best place because where God believing Christian god believing nation.
It has nothing to do with education about how I think.
And then, of course eventually things change over time and
we've become more global and now being blue collar workers
doesn't necessarily give you a good standard of living. It's
a much more difficult strive and the rest of the
world is catching up with the US, and I think
a lot of people, a lot of Americans just feel
that somehow they're being cheated at of their birthright because
this is how their fathers lived, their grandparents lived, and
everything was so much better economically and it's because many
people are just not higher educated to understand a broader
intellectual they have a broader intellectual understanding of the world
and to understand that America had certain advantages and for
a foriry long time, many Americans, many generations benefited from that.
Oh and on top of that, the cause of education
was just too expensive always for too many people to
study a higher education, and that's led to America to
where it is today. I think with respect to so
many people falling in behind the MAGA movement and Trump,
not for being bad people, but they just missed out
on having that chance to develop a more global intellect.
Speaker 2: Well, let me add a perspective if I may, I
think a lot of it too. I mean, there are
a lot of people who you know, they don't have
a master's degree and business who have become successful business people.
There are a lot of people who have become educated
about the world in a great many ways. I think
a lot of it has to do with kind of
a cultural intelligence to see ourselves as part of the
human condition. And I think people who travel more in
people who have a broader spectrum of experiences are less
nationalistic and they are more global in their thinking. You
are absolutely right that the United States has long been
a culture where we know we're number one. We just
can't demonstrate how. I wrote a whole chapter about this
in a book that I published years ago called Confessions
of a Former Fox News Christian, and the chapter is
called We're Number One? And it starts with an imagined
conversation with a Christian nationalist American and we're like, well,
how are we number one? And they're like, we're we
have freedom, we have a freedom of the press, and
we've got a strong military and blah blah blah blah.
And of course the response is, we'll so do uch
shit a ton of other countries in the world, many
of whom have it better, and we actually fail to
much of the rest of the world in almost every metric,
be it healthcare, violent crime, cost of living, average life span,
who's the most warlike, our national debt or deficit, etc.
And if you really want to live in the greatest
country in the world, you're going to Switzerland. So I
find it interesting. It's an interesting social experiment to talk
to people about we are number one? When you ask
them why are we number one? And every single time
it comes down to a feeling We're just great. There's
just something about us. There's something special about America, you know.
And I'm like, well, actually there's kind of not. And
some of the other parts of the world are looking
pretty attractive these days. I'm just saying, how are things
in Mexico. I mean, has that been a good fit
for you?
Speaker 8: It's been great. I grew up in a pretty poor
family in eastern Canada. Nobody was higher educated. I was
relatively unhappy, but I always respected education, and I struggled
in my final years of high school. But eventually I
got myself in the university and I studied a sociology degree.
It helped form who I am, and I developed this
attitude that I had to experience other parts of the world. Eventually,
I decided that in order to have that type of opportunity,
I needed to get into some type of work where
I could do that. So I decided to become an
English language teacher. Anyway, I eventually ended up here Economically, socially,
I'm married, I have my son, and I don't think
I could have the life that I have here, and
I'm experiencing a reality which I feel totally content.
Speaker 2: All right, well, I think we both agree American exceptionalism
is ridiculous and it's not founded in any kind of data.
But you're very kind to call the show and be
a part of the convert station today and be safe
south of the border.
Speaker 8: Okay, So happy to talk to you.
Speaker 2: All right, Bro, we'll hang in there. We'll see you later.
Speaker 5: All right.
Speaker 2: I've got Allah dialing in on a web call that
I say the name correctly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was perfect.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. What's on your mind?
Speaker 5: Okay, So I guess I'll start with the question and
give some context. I basically want some advice on how
I shouldn't approach interacting with my brother's kids because they've
been raised and brainwashed with the IBLP, the Institute of
Basic Life Principles, that cult that was in Shiny Happy People.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Bill Goth, that's crazy.
Speaker 5: Yeah. So my main concern is for the older girls
because they've been parentified, and I just want to make
sure that they know they have a safe place with
me if they decide to leave the religion or if
somehow they managed to discover that there might be in
the LGBTQ. So there's eight kids, I think zero through thirteen.
I lost track after child number three, But yeah, his
wife homeschools all of them. They're super sheltered. They are
not allowed to listen to secular music, they're not allowed
to watch TV. Their only interaction with the outside world
is their church basically. And when I brought up Shiny
Happy People and like the IVLP concerns to my brother,
he kind of made it seem like they only take
the quote unquote good parts of the doctrine, so he's
trying to downplay like how much they really are into it.
But I feel like it's way more than that. And
they don't know that I'm an atheist as far as
they know I'm Christian. So I just I don't know
how to like properly interact with the kids so that
they know that I'm safe without kind of them alerting
their parents that I am encouraging them to question or
to let them, I guess, allowing them to have questions
because I know that they have to basically report back
to the mom, because they do that whole umbrella of
authority thing where it's like the kids report to the mom,
the mom reports, the dad reports the god type of thing.
So I just and they live states away, so basically
we only see them maybe like once a year. So
I want to make sure that I do the best
that I can so that they know that I'm here. Well,
I just don't know how to go about it.
Speaker 2: You're challenged on several fronts. Iblp is just so sinister,
So she's pretty much a trad wife. I picture her
in like a floor length skirt and you know, almost
churning butter on the porch. I need to readjust myself,
but it's like the Dugger family kind of vibe, is
what I'm hearing.
Speaker 5: Pretty yeah, Actually, the Dugger family are the only quote
unquote secular TV that they were able to watch crazy.
Speaker 2: And that show was called nineteen Kids in Counting. By
the way, the Dugger family has been loaded with scandal,
sexual scandals, et cetera. But yeah, the fact that we
cannot parent someone else's children, which I appreciate, but the
frustrating part is if someone is brainwashing their kids, we
are hamstrung. Unless there's like physical abuse, and there might be,
We're locked out of an opportunity to be an influence,
especially if that environment is a high control, closed system.
So because we're not the parent, we're handcuffed. Beyond that,
you have not really told anybody that you're a secular
or non religious person, so saying so plays your hand,
and you may not be ready to do that, so
you're having to have that conversation. And then third, we've
got the geography of it. You're not even in their
zip code for them to be able to see you
living essentially a secular life. So when they have questions,
they might say, hey, you might be someone to talk
to you, like when they're eighteen, you know, and it's
not you intruding yourself into their lives. Normally, my answer
would be, even though you you know you can't and
likely shouldn't, parent somebody else children, you normally, if you're
in their sphere, could be openly secular and they could
see you, hey, is someone she's not religious, she doesn't
go to church, she doesn't believe in God, she seems
like she's doing great, she's got a really good life.
And then if they come to a point when they
start to question, you might be the first point of
contact they have. But on several fronts, you're simply not there,
and I'm not convinced there's really much you.
Speaker 5: Can do and especially just for the older girls. So
I know, like they didn't really get a chance to
have a childhood, and I feel really terrible whenever I
do get to see them. So I just I just
don't know how to be there for them with how
controlled they are. Like my brother or didn't even let
me buy a gaming console for them, so I doubt
that he'll let me buy them some form of communication
where I can just talk to them without the mom
or dad being around, like without my brother or his
wife being around.
Speaker 2: And does that take you into boundary violation issues? If
somebody was texting your child outside of your supervision, would
you feel that that was inappropriate? It very well might be.
It is a catch twenty two. And unfortunately, you and
I live in a situation where in many cases we're
not going to be able to have meaningful conversations with
these kids until they are no longer kids. And in
your case, if you're not able to be visibly secular
in front of them, then your hands are really tied.
All I can hope is that your availability might serve
you if something blows up in the future, maybe one
of the parents has an epiphany, you know, maybe when
the kids become teenagers, they start to become more curious,
and you find an appropriate way to have conversations. But
it sucks watching kids get indoctrinated and that big wall
keeps you out. It's just brutal. So I don't have
any good answers for you. All I know is I
understand what you're feeling.
Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, thanks, it was good to hear your take
on it, because yeah, I just felt like, oh, I
should be doing more, and I felt so guilty for
not I don't know, somehow trying to do more. No,
it's not your fault for them, because I know.
Speaker 2: It's it's not your fault that they're in and honestly,
it's not your responsibility at least now, you know, when
they're adults, young adults, when they are of age, then
maybe there's a more compelling argument to be made to
be proactive about bringing challenge to them in a loving way,
in a productive way, in a way that doesn't attack them.
But right now, you know, don't beat yourself up. It's
just not something you can control and that's a hard
reality that we all have to face.
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, yeah, thank you so much for your reassurance. Oh, idiot.
Speaker 2: Hang in there and we'll talk again. Okay, you take care. Yeah,
all right, we'll see you later. And with that, we'll
call it a show and I will see you back here.
I've got no illusions on the horizon. He's going to
be a great interview. I've got Phil Zuckerman. He's talking
about morality and this myth that religious people are more moral.
He brought receipts, he has data, So I'm going to
play you with speech that he gave on that very subject.
A lot of cool stuff on the horizon, and we'll
do it in the coming weeks. Take care.
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