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Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the.

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Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I

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tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.

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Speaker 2: I put my hand on a book and made a.

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Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.

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Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.

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Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Speaker 2: I have a friend who likes to send me weird

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shit in the man. We've known each other for forty

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two years, went to high school together. He's one of

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my favorite people and one of my best friends ever

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in the whole world. And he knows my sense of

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humor and I know his. So we are always sending

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things to each other, and I just never know when

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I'm going to open the mailbox and what the hell

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is that? So I brought two examples. I got this

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in the mail. It is a plastic black hand and

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it's got a couple of little holes at the end

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for mounting on the wall and it came with battery

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powered candles. So the whole idea is you screwed the

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hand into the wall and then it extends out like

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you know, there's some dark thing that is reaching through

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out of some other plane into this world, and then

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it holds a candle. So I got that in the mail.

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Thanks Cory, appreciate that. And here's the one I really

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wanted to talk about. And I don't even know what

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to make of this. It is a book, doesn't even

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say who the author is. The book is titled how

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to Talk to Your Cat about Gun Safety? What the hell?

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Where does he find this stuff? Let's see, there are

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several chapters how to talk to your Cat about abstinence,

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online safety, drugs, puberty, post apocalyptic survival, Satanism, and there's

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a whole chapter on evolution. I had to open this

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up real fast. This is the kind of shit that

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amuses me. And I don't know what this person or

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these people's angle is. I don't know what they're saying,

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but it says this. It says, who are the enemies

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who seek to undermine my cat's faith in creationism? There

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are two groups who have devoted themselves to impressing upon

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our cats the myth of evolution, the puppets and their

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puppet masters. Most of the people you encounter who advocate

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for the die of evolution are nothing more than brainwashed sheep,

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blindly parroting the lies spoon fed to them by Hollywood

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Jews and an unholy coalition comprised of elements from the

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United Nation, European Union, the Rothschild family, and the Builderberg Group,

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a cabal of some of the wealthiest and most powerful

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men in the world. Now, this is a riff on

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deep state, So it makes me think that this is

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probably a liberal who's sort of tweaking the Maga conspiracy theorist.

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There is that whole white replacement theory. That part of

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it is that the Jews want to take over the

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banking system and replace white people, which is a strange

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conspiracy theory. Is there a best age to speak to

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my cat about the lie of evolution? It is never

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too early to talk to your cat about evolution. Many

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cat owners foolishly wait for their kittens to broach the subject.

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This is bizarre. Are how to talk to your cat

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about gun safety? Anyway? I'm going to be looking through

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that tonight with a WTF moment, just bizarre, bizarre releasing

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a video about Satanism and the Oreo cookie. Now there

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is a demographic of people, it's not very big, but

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do you know what, there are people out there pattern

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seeking primates that were scanning the horizon for everything that's

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got something that's got a sharp angle or a triangle

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or something that looks like a cross, and before you

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know it, they've spun up a crazy story about, you know,

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how the devil has infected it. And we've seen the

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devil infecting pretty much everything from the Boo Boo dolls

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to rock and roll music to Saturday Morning cartoons to

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I don't know well who said Prince Charles was the

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Antichrist for that one recently. And there's a group of

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people that think that Oreo cookies have symbols on them

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which you're actually Satanic and they represent the Knight's Templar,

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the Freemasons and other dark forces out there. And I

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was fascinated, mostly because I wanted to use this fringe

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example to get into the whole apaphenia and peridolia phenomenon.

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Our pattern seeking evolved brains are always trying to put

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shit together, and if you prime that with religious thinking,

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you come up with all kinds of crazy stories. So

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in order to finish the video, I wanted an oreo

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to eat, so I bought a package of double stuff oreos.

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So it's kind of a stinger at the end. I

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pull out the cookie and I eat it. Haha, big

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fun website videos over. There are two issues I have.

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One is that, now what did I use? I think

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I did two takes. Sorry, I did two takes, and

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now I have the entire package of oreos left. So

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I got to get these out of here because I

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have no willpower. But my second issue is this. I

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bought double stuff. If anybody remember when double stuff had

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double stuff in it? What the what the hell is this?

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What is that? That is not double, It's not double anything,

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that's single stuff, and they are pitching it. They put

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double on the label. You lie, you lie, you deceive.

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Maybe you are of the double What the hell? I'm

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putting something in the chat. I'm doing a survey the

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correct way to eat an oreo. Do you eat it

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whole or do you do the twist? And then you

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do the filling out of the mill a filling in

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this case is not double, it is single. That's still

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good filling. I am a twister and cream eater. That's

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the only proper way to eat the or I mean,

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the debate really is over, but you can go ahead

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and you can sound off if you want. Other people

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do dunk it and milk, et cetera. What else has

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been going on recently? Phone lines are wide open. Whatever's

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on your mind. Somebody told me once. I don't know

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if it was just somebody made up a meme or

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if they actually did it. But it was an all

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stuff oreo where you bought it and all it was

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was the big block of cream. Is that true or

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is that just a joke that's been floating around online.

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I don't know. There's a Mega stuff or there was.

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The mega stuff should be double stuff because the double

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stuff single stuff come a bunch of bullsoit just got

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back from Calgary speaking at the weekend Reason event, the

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next one on the calendar, No Illusions and myself. It

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is the host of the Thinking Atheist and the host

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of the Skating Atheists together on stage doing a tandem

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show for the first time. It has gott to be

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so much fun. We are right at fifty percent sold

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out with two months ago, so we know this sucker

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is going to be a house and you need to

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be there if you're anywhere near Cincinnati on the eleventh

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of July. It's gonna be a three hour thing. We're

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each going to do a presentation and then we're gonna

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like engage and we're gonna give shit away from the

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stage and it's just gonna be fun. It's gonna be

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a good time. If you want to be a part

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of that, you can go to the Thinking Atheist dot

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com slash events and you'll see a link to that,

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and then all the other stuff that's coming up. It's

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nanocone on the horizon. We've got Baja Con in Sarnia.

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We've got Rocket City Reason, the World Humanist Conference is

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on the way, the Freedom from Religion Foundation event later

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on this year, the Secular Student Alliance is having their conference.

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A lot of good stuff happening around the country and

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across the border into Canada. I was nervous going to

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Calgary because you know, it's Calgary, It's Canada. What are

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they gonna think about us Americans. I'm guessing most of

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them are not big fans and customs officials are not

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known for being super light, happy, happy, joy joy people anyway,

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at least they don't display a lot of humor. I

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thought about there is a T shirt that you can

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wear and it says I didn't vote for him or

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I'm very sorry about him or something, and it says

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it in every major language in the world all over

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the shirt. That's the design, and I thought about wearing that,

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but I was informed that Calgary is actually like one

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of our red states, and there is the phenomenon there

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they call it maple Maga, where there are a lot

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of Trump lovers in this part of Canada, and the

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rest of the country talks about this, and I'm like, really,

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and it's true, and this is how I know it's true.

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So Natalie and I took a couple of extra days

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and we went to BAMF BAMF National Park, one of

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the most beautiful places I have ever seen. We'd rarely

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get to travel together. Both needed to one plug. Decompress

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goes someplace where the land isn't flat and the water's

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not brown. Get the hell out of Oklahoma and go

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to the mountains. So there we are in the Rockies

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and we got a hotel that had an outdoor pool

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and hot tub. Well, I I don't like to swim really,

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but the hot tub sounded amazing. So we put on

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our suits and we go out and we're sitting in

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this hot tub outside with a mountain backdrop, and it's bliss.

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It is amazing. Then another couple shows up. They're both

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probably low to mid thirties. She's got the long blonde hair.

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He looks like Vin Diesel with a beer belly. He's

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got the tats all over, and they're both hanging out

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in the said there are two hot tubs, so they're

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over in the one next to us, and before you

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know it, she strikes up a conversation. Hey, what are

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y'all doing here? Where are you from? And we're like, oh,

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we're from Oklahoma, USA. And then we I did this

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joke a dozen times. I said, we're kind of tempted

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to ask for asylum while we're here. There was some

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nervous chuckling, and then I remembered we're in Maple Maga Country.

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So now I'm wondering what are we in for as

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far as a reply, and they're like, yeah, yeah, things

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are wow, So what do you think about what's going

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on down there. Now this is bait, right, They're trying

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to figure out where we're coming from. So where Natalie

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just went off. I'm sitting there trying to relax. I

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don't want to talk politics. I'm in the hot tub

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on vacation. She goes full pitbull on Trump and we

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talk a little bit about how wow, you know, we're tempted.

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We'd like to live north at the border up here

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at least Mark Karney sounds like he's much more centered

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adult in the room who more represents our values. And

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the guy Vin Diesel, he looked up and he says,

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you know, I'd like to take Mark Karney out into

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a field and shoot him. Natalie and I froze, and

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the loathing on his face it was bizarre. Well, it

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turns out he works in the oil and gas industry.

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I'm guessing this is like a blue collar culture that

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is like drill, baby, drill, and he's part of the

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Maple Maga community. Do they call it a not a

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prime minister, who's the one who were the local governors?

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They don't call them governors. But things got very uncomfortable,

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and we finally, you know, parted ways and went back

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to our respective rooms. And I was talking to Natalie,

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and I'm like, imagine the loathing that you feel that

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you disagree with someone on something, even something that means

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the world to you, and your first thing, the first

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thing you say to a total stranger, is I would

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like to take them out to a field and execute

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them with a gun. Now, I feel very strongly about

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a lot of horrible people, and I have used the

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word hatred in regard to a few if I'm just

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being honest, and I don't feel that I'm a hateful person,

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but I feel hate. Under no circumstances do I want

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to live in a world where I would execute the

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people that I despise. And I certainly wouldn't lead with

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that in a conversation with strangers who are on vacation.

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So what does he say among his friends? What's he

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really like with his friends? It's got to be that

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times fifty. Apparently the group in the there's a group

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in the Calgary area that wants to secede from Canada

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and become their own little micro nation. What's that about?

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Because we've got secessionists in the United States. Just blows

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my mind.

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Speaker 3: Boom.

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Speaker 2: These people just needed you need some Oreos up there.

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The truth is, I have an affection for the Oreo,

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but it's not a great cookie. You know, It's not

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like you're going to the local shop and you know

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they've just come out of the oven and you smell

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the freshly baked chocolate chip and Oreo raisin cookie. I mean,

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you know this is it's pretty dry. You know, the

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cream itself is not amazing, but there's something about it

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that takes me back to a very cherished moment in

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my childhood and when Oreos were kind of a big

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deal and I still eat them. I got to get

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rid of this package. Okay, what else was I going

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to bring to your attention? So, speaking of Trump, and

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I wanted to read this for you. I was watching

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the latest screed that had come off of truth Social

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and apparently it's come to light that there is an

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assistant who a young attractive assistant who is either helping

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him or they're using AI or something to write a

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bunch of stuff. It. I don't know what's going on,

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but I think it was forty or fifty truth Social

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posts in a couple of hours in the overnight hours.

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And this is so common that we've stopped even noticing

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when it happens. It is so abnormal, and you know,

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beyond the horrible things that he says and does, I

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had another thought that I wrote into a Facebook post

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and it was responded to so much that I went

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ahead and translated it to substack and I'll just read

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it really quickly. It's titled the World's Emptiest Man. It says,

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beyond the fact that America's twenty fifth Amendment obviously has

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no trigger, and beyond the sane washing of softball media headlines,

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I'm interested in what Trump's truth social tirades reveal. His

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dozens and dozens of rants a night, often in the

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middle of the night, spill out of his swollen fingers

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like the tantrum of a spoiled only child. They're remarkable

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in that there's so manic, awful and constant Gavin new scum,

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low IQ stupid people. And of course there are those

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AI videos of the Obamas as monkeys and the fighter

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jet fantasy with a crown, Trump dropping feces bombs on

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no Kings protesters. Now I'm not a trained psychologist, but

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my mental picture of the midnight Mango is one of

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constant unrest, agitation, and emptiness. He seems to have no friends,

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no meaningful conversations, no human interactions that aren't transactional or adversarial.

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His heart is a sieth, with each fresh suck up

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of praise almost instantly draining away and requiring the next

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refill when no sycophants are nearby. He worships himself, posting

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golden idols, ai hero characters of himself himself on Rushmore,

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and claims of greatest in history. Now I'm sorry, greatest

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in history. Accomplishments in total contrast to reality. Even the

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joy quote unquote joy that Trump gets from his sexist,

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racist insults and revenge doesn't create any real satisfaction. His

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world is a swirling eddy where flailing leads in circles,

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and so he splashes louder and harder until exhausted in

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misery before his next round of spasms. In my life,

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I have never seen anyone so devoid of basic humanity.

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I've seen Trump's smirk, I've never seen him laugh. I've

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heard words of ego, but never words of empathy. I've

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watched a man compensating for his micro's smallness with fantasies

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of Kim Jong ill, statues of himself, and the world's

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most visible places. It's almost as if he wants physical

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objects to constantly affirm a greatness he knows he will

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never possess. The man might have bettered the world with

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his privilege, influence, and resources. He might have enjoyed the

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company of friends, known the gift of outward facing love,

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and reap the satisfaction that comes when you've made a

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positive ripple in the human see instead is a toddler

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in a tie, power without perspective, a human without humanity,

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And when he finally passes away, his one contribution to

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bettering the world will be his absence. People seem to

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respond to that, You know what, I'll pace the sub

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stack in the chat if anybody else wants to have

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it and share. Anybody else feel that, Like, when's the

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last time you saw him laugh at a joke or

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be jovial or high five people and say something Jenner,

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someone mentioned the fact that he doesn't have a dog.

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I'm not sure I trust a president who doesn't have

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a dog and knows how to play with the dog.

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You know what, I'm saying, That's just me? What else

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was I going to mention, Oh lucky us, we've got

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a new virus. It's not new, but we've got a

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new outbreak that we get to be aware of as

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the centers for disease control have been dismantled and or compromised.

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And the guy running the health situation in the United

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States is the brainwormed anti vaxxer, who is just the

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creepiest ass dude, one of them creepiest ass dude on

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the planet. So now the hand to virul I don't

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know anything about the hantavirus, so I looked it up.

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Hantavirus is an infection caused by a group of viruses

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that spread to humans through exposure to infected urine, saliva

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and droppings from rodents. Initial symptom chills, fever, headache, nausea,

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abdominal pain, vomiting, and diarrhea. In the Western Hemisphere, hand

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to virus can cause hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, which causes symptoms

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like shortness of breath and cough that may lead to

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respiratory failure and death. In Europe and Asia, hantavirus can

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cause hemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome. This may cause internal bleeding,

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low blood pressure, and kidney failure. And they say one

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of the ways to prevent it is to keep rats

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and shit out of homes. Ano they're enclosed spaces, clean

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everything with bleach. And I guess, don't join a rat

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infested cruise ship. Like, were there rats on the cruise ship?

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I haven't seen. I don't know, But anyway, that hand

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to virus. So now we've got the same president who

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totally dropped the ball on COVID and now we got

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hand to And I guess they have finally evacuated everybody

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up off the cruise ship. But what are the implications there?

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You know, you and I have seen that, especially in

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the United States, we are a culture where people love

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to talk about freedoms, but nobody wants to talk about responsibility.

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So we say, well, there's a mandated vaccine and there's

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a mandated mask. People lose their minds and they're like

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a freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom,

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And then they wave a flag and probably invoke the

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name of God, and you are like, that's inventile, right.

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You have freedom, but the society that has given you

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that freedom requires a measure of societal responsibility. What are

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you going to do to keep your community in that

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society safer, And yet I'm surrounded. It's so selfish and

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so myopic. It's like freedom, freedom, as if freedom is

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a conversation stopper. All you have to do is say

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the word freedom and liberty and immediately everybody else is

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supposed to just tucktail and run. I swear, it's just crazy.

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There was something else on my little people. Oh, I

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don't mean to make the whole monologue about Trump, but

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we got to talk about Australia. Have you seen this article?

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So there's a proposed a proposed Trump tower that was

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supposed to go up in Australia, all right, the very

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first Trump tower was going to go up down Under.

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And the CEO of a property group which was involved

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said that, you know, with the Iran war and with inflation,

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and with the rants and the you know, the pettiness

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and the dismantling of democracy and the assault on essentially

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democracy and decent decency worldwide, with all that shit going on,

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we think his brand has become too toxic for us

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in Australia. So we are pulling the plug. It is beautiful,

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It's beautiful. Ninety one store. It was going to be

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the International Hotel and Tower Gold Coast would be billed

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as Australia's tallest tower, two hundred and eighty five rooms,

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a luxury hotel, high end retail restaurants, residential apartments. You

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know that shit's going to be covered in a gold glaze.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: The more expensive we try to make shit look, the

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cheaper it looks. If you've seen the Oval Office, the

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Oval Office looks like a bad TV set for a

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televangelist begging for money. The lord wants you to send

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in your coin, which also brings me to the Trump

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phone phenomenon. How many thousands and thousands of people paid

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five or six hundred dollars for this Donald Trump phone

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cell phone and if they had read the fine print,

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it says, well, actually there's a chance we won't even

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deliver the phone to you, but thank you for the money.

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00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:01,920
How do you milk sheep? Awesome, It's just all I mean,

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00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:06,279
that's just shaden freud right there. If you're stupid enough

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to send five six hundred dollars to Trump for a phone,

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and it tells me you haven't done any of the

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other research on any of the other business endeavors that

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00:24:13,839 --> 00:24:16,119
he's done. You have no idea what he's like. You

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00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,279
have no idea that he has no scruples. You know,

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00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,119
or you don't care. You deserve to lose the money.

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This is stupid tax. One more thing that was on

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my little pe brain. We've talked a lot about AI. Now,

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I'm going to preface this by saying that I have

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used AI for images and much earlier. I used it

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a lot because I was ignorant of the power drain

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and the energy crisis and all these other concerns. And

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then we got into the conversations and you've heard me

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have them about how we are removing from the equation

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human artists and handing things over to machines to give

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us what people are calling AI slop, and I think

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that's a fair criticism. I have been a few occasions

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where I cannot find what I need from people, like

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00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:07,519
even on the stock image sites that I use, there's

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just not something that is correct. But I really needed

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00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:12,880
it done, and I have resorted to use AI and

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it's worked fine. In a recent speech that I gave

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00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:17,799
that I'm going to release in the next few months,

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00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,079
where I talk about white Jesus I needed an image

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of me in a crown of thorns wearing the robe

404
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like Jesus. I did use AI for that. That was

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a few months ago, and I have been using it

406
00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:35,000
occasionally to clean up old photos that are just too

407
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,279
mucked up to put in an online video, whether the

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00:25:40,319 --> 00:25:43,000
original photographer had it out of focus, or whether there's

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not an original and only these bad duplicates exist. I

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00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:49,640
have taken an image. In fact, I did it for

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a speech. I did it for the Oreo video. There

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00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,559
was an old image showing the Knight's templar symbol and whatnot,

413
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but it was just too grainy and low res and

414
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I wasn't able to reproduce it. I wanted to use

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the original. I was able to take it, throw it

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into AI, and it brought it back to me crisp

417
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,480
and clean and fully high rest. And I will say

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I've used it unless there's another option. Occasionally I will

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find myself going that way. But AI's power drain is

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becoming a real, real, real problem, and I'll admit that

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as I've admitted that I've used it occasionally, maybe I'm

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00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,680
part of the problem. But Forbes just posted an article

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00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:35,119
that said this a Gallop survey released Wednesday shows that

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seventy one percent of Americans are somewhat or strongly opposed

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to the building of AI data centers in their area,

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00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,039
mostly out of concern for the environmental impact. That number

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is higher than the fifty three percent of respondents who

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00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,400
said they would oppose the building of a nuclear plant

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00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,319
in their area. People would rather have a nuclear power

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00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,640
plant than an AI data center in their yards or

431
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,039
in their neighborhoods, or in their communities. That's fascinating to me.

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And I'm one of these guys. I'm a fan of

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00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,200
nuclear power. I take it in the teeth out there

434
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,960
when I say that people lose their minds. But as

435
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,599
the more I learn about nuclear power, I know Three

436
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,200
Mile Island, and I know Schernobyl, and I know that

437
00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:28,359
when does that when shit goes wrong, it really goes wrong.

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00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,799
But if you look at nuclear in the macro and

439
00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:35,920
then we look at the fossil fuel industry as a

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00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,160
whole as well, I mean daily, daily, daily pumping of

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00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:46,119
carcinogens into the whole of the world, I just think

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00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:52,359
nuclear is a good option. So anyway, I just think

443
00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:55,359
you would how would you feel if they were proposed

444
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,039
a nuclear power plant by miles from your house. Would

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00:27:59,079 --> 00:28:02,240
you freak out? And at the same time, do you

446
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,599
have a power plant with big smokestacks that are pumping

447
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,200
black smoke into the atmosphere twenty four to seven that

448
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,039
you're breathing for the whole of your entire life and

449
00:28:12,079 --> 00:28:17,599
you don't even blink. This is an interesting conversation. Let

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00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,799
me have it in the comments section and let me

451
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,960
hear your thoughts as we go to the phones and

452
00:28:24,079 --> 00:28:33,640
we will take those calls next. Thank you so much

453
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,720
for listening, and thanks for your support on patreonpatreon dot

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00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:45,680
com slash Seth Andrews. As we go to the phones, Andy, Hi, Andy,

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00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:46,319
are you there?

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00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 4: I am here, Seth. How you doing.

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00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:50,759
Speaker 2: I'm well, let's talk what's on your mind?

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00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,519
Speaker 4: We have this Christian Nationalist rally on the National Mall

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00:28:55,599 --> 00:28:59,200
this weekend. I'm just wondering, do you remember the reason

460
00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:02,480
rallies back in twenty twelve and twenty sixteen.

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00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 5: Yeah?

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00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: I was there.

463
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,519
Speaker 4: There are good times.

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00:29:05,799 --> 00:29:07,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a lot of fun. I've got videos

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00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:09,559
on both of those events. I sure do.

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Speaker 4: I just find it so disheartening that at one point

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we had the largest gathering of free thinkers are there

468
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,440
on the National Mall, and now we're going to have

469
00:29:20,559 --> 00:29:22,920
this rally full of hate. I'm sure it's just going

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00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,480
to be horrible and I don't even know what to

471
00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:28,200
think about what it's going to be like. But I'm

472
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,640
just very disgusted with the way things are going, and

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00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,079
I don't know what to think about.

474
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,759
Speaker 2: Well, the difference is is that the reason rally was

475
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:41,160
privately organized and privately funded. The one in twenty eleven

476
00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:43,759
was massive. I think it's right. It was right on

477
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:47,039
the edge of sort of the new atheist phenomenon. It

478
00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:50,079
was a huge deal. Twenty sixteen wasn't nearly as successful.

479
00:29:50,119 --> 00:29:52,400
It was still a great time, but you know, it

480
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,079
was a privately funded thing, and a privately organized thing.

481
00:29:56,119 --> 00:29:59,799
Where you know we're talking about now is essentially gileadded

482
00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:03,160
to state church. It is a governmental Oh yeah, And

483
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,599
you're right, it's going to be filled with bile and

484
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,720
hate and accusations and venom, and you know, the love

485
00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:11,200
of Jesus is not going to be present. They might

486
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,279
say the word love, but it's going to be a

487
00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:14,440
hate rally for sure.

488
00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:17,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just it's the same. We couldn't keep that

489
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,240
whole reason rally thing going, But it's going to be

490
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,799
decades before we're at a point where something like that

491
00:30:24,839 --> 00:30:26,720
could be organized again.

492
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,359
Speaker 2: I think I think the novelty too kind of wore off.

493
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,119
It was an event, it happened. It was kind of

494
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,799
a woodstock for freethinkers. But you know, the word atheist

495
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,160
became a bit more normalized, at least in the general sense.

496
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,839
There are free thought conventions and gatherings all around the country.

497
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,759
So this idea of a major event, now, given the

498
00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:55,000
galvanizing nature of recent events, would a reason type rally

499
00:30:55,519 --> 00:30:59,160
be more attractive as a statement against you know, this

500
00:30:59,319 --> 00:31:02,839
encroachment of the project twenty twenty five people, there might

501
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,920
be a greater sense of urgency, But I'm not sure

502
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,240
you can recreate twenty eleven again. But I welcome any

503
00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:13,599
opportunity for free thinkers to get together and celebrate science

504
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,160
and reason. We certainly need more of it in this

505
00:31:16,279 --> 00:31:19,279
crazy country. So thanks for calling very much, Andy, I

506
00:31:19,319 --> 00:31:22,599
share your frustration. We'll, you know, we'll just keep trying

507
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,680
to keep America secular as best we can.

508
00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 4: All right, Good luck, sir, Thank you brother.

509
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: We'll see you later. I've got Stephanie dialing in three

510
00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:34,480
six zero. Hi, Stephanie, are you there?

511
00:31:35,119 --> 00:31:40,519
Speaker 6: Yes, I am, thank you, sir. I was listening to

512
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,799
a show earlier and they were checking by AI. He

513
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,720
was tucking by AI and how everyone jobs will be

514
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,279
taken away, and I totally agree with that, but that

515
00:31:56,599 --> 00:31:57,559
is where.

516
00:31:57,599 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 7: We are headed.

517
00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: If you in a job like me, Let's say I

518
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,880
was writing a book. Well, apparently now there are people

519
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,440
who are putting a few ideas into a chatbot and

520
00:32:08,519 --> 00:32:11,559
it's writing a chapter for them, and instead of a

521
00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:15,079
copy editor, and I pay a copy editor who is amazing.

522
00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:18,480
Her name is Jessica, and she runs a media company

523
00:32:18,519 --> 00:32:21,039
and she's a master of what she does. But now

524
00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:25,720
if I use chat, GPT or whatever to copy edit

525
00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:28,839
a future book, then I've taken her gifts out of

526
00:32:28,839 --> 00:32:31,880
the equation and she loses revenue and an opportunity to

527
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:37,079
remain relevant. We have AI voiceover now where they'll emulate

528
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,200
your voice. They can sample your voice, even against your will,

529
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,400
and they can use it to narrate books. Audible dot

530
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,039
com is now saying would you like to sample your voice?

531
00:32:46,079 --> 00:32:49,319
And so then whenever you publish the text version, the

532
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,519
audiobook can be automatically generated This takes narrators out of

533
00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:57,720
the employment pool. We've got artists being replaced by AI,

534
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,559
these limited language models, and these things are going out

535
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,640
spidering and grabbing little bits and pieces of other people's

536
00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:07,720
art to make something new. It's why they call it slop.

537
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,680
We've got the AI, the oligarchs who are pushing AI,

538
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,759
who are now laying off a massive percentage of their

539
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,359
organizations because AI is doing what people used to do.

540
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,680
I think that the technology itself is remarkable, but I

541
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,240
think it should be used to better our experience, to

542
00:33:27,279 --> 00:33:30,279
make humans better at what we do. We're better at

543
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,799
human ing using the technology, and the technology should not

544
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,680
replace things that humans should be focusing on anyway. Now

545
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,079
do I know what the future holes. I do not,

546
00:33:42,039 --> 00:33:45,119
but I have some hope and a lot of concern

547
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,119
about the implications, mostly because we're moving so freaking fast

548
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,920
without any real consideration, which is what human beings do,

549
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,519
and it's certainly what the oligarchs do. They don't give

550
00:33:55,559 --> 00:33:58,359
a shit about the consequences to humanity. This is all

551
00:33:58,759 --> 00:34:01,519
like a big toy. It's a money making toil. What

552
00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:04,440
they think is a money making toy until the bubble

553
00:34:04,519 --> 00:34:07,359
breaks and the investors lose millions, and then that shit

554
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,239
gets crazy. So it's complicated, Stephanie. But I know we've

555
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,480
got our eyes on it, and I don't know what

556
00:34:13,519 --> 00:34:16,360
the right answer is, except you know, we should be

557
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,280
using technology. Technology should not be replacing us.

558
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 6: I completely agree. No job is safe. Everything that humans

559
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,559
can do well, robots or some sort of automation can

560
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:38,079
do it better, or they think better, not necessarily better,

561
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,039
because chat bots and AI they lie, they.

562
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 8: Like you, and they do it.

563
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:52,159
Speaker 6: Wrong sometimes, either intentionally or not. I don't know. I

564
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:57,280
don't know. Well, Okay, well that's pretty much I had.

565
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: Well, Stephanie, thank you for the call very much, and

566
00:35:01,039 --> 00:35:02,280
you're greatly appreciated.

567
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,079
Speaker 6: Okay, well, thank you.

568
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 2: All right, we'll see you have a good one. Bob

569
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,000
is dialing in on a web call. Hi, Bob, what's

570
00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:11,639
on your mind?

571
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:12,639
Speaker 4: Hey?

572
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: How are you the last caller?

573
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 9: I guess it was the caller previous to this caller

574
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,039
I had mentioned, you know, the Christians that were coming down,

575
00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:23,480
and I guess from a secular perspective, you know, he

576
00:35:23,519 --> 00:35:26,360
had invoked things like hate and quite a few other

577
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,800
moral claims. I don't necessarily understand what would actually be

578
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,320
wrong with that though, on an atheistic.

579
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 2: Worldview, atheism isn't a worldview. So are you asking me

580
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,840
how we would know or why we would care if

581
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:42,800
something was hateful?

582
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, I guess the I don't want to

583
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,960
get hung up on the atheism isn't a worldview because

584
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,760
if I asked you if you believed your own worldview,

585
00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:54,800
you would have to tell me yes. And that worldview

586
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,519
is one in which you would say that God doesn't exist.

587
00:35:57,599 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: I'm a humanist. That's a worldview. I don't believe in

588
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,840
a God. Is not a worldview, and I don't think

589
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,599
that's being pedantic. I think that's just using terms correctly.

590
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:08,079
Speaker 8: Right.

591
00:36:08,159 --> 00:36:11,199
Speaker 2: I'm a human is that speaks to my values? Atheism

592
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:11,719
does not.

593
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,639
Speaker 9: Yeah, And maybe the issue I would have with that is,

594
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,760
I guess I view all worldviews as having at least

595
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,800
three categories, and I would say that those categories are knowledge, ethics,

596
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,280
and metaphysics. And I think from those three categories the

597
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,679
rest of your worldview basically fleshes out.

598
00:36:29,559 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: So well, you can make that assertion, but it doesn't

599
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,360
mean that it is distilled down to those three things.

600
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,519
And then you've got to define metaphysics and that's a

601
00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:42,159
jello that you're not going to be able to nail

602
00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:45,800
to the wall. This idea that I don't know what

603
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:51,119
hatefulness is because I'm an atheist, I totally reject. In fact,

604
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:55,440
I understand I have an evolved ethical center. I understand

605
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,679
what harm is, how it would feel done to me,

606
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,960
how hatefulness would feel on my end, and I understand

607
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,159
when someone is speaking hatefully about someone else. I don't

608
00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:06,400
need that assigned to me by a third party. I

609
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,320
don't need some objective moral standard bearer to spell it out.

610
00:37:10,679 --> 00:37:13,639
Pretty basic, I understand what harm and hate looks like,

611
00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:15,840
and I don't need a god to do it. That's fair,

612
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:16,679
isn't it. Well.

613
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 9: I think the part that I disagree with you on

614
00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:21,920
is yes, I think that you could say that I

615
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,719
deem this thing to be harmful, or this thing, I

616
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,679
deem this thing to be hateful. The issue that I see,

617
00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:32,119
at least with the atheistic perspective, is well, there doesn't

618
00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:34,599
seem to be anything that you can ground that in

619
00:37:34,639 --> 00:37:37,199
to say that that's just not your personal preference, right, So,

620
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,360
if there is somebody that is hateful or somebody that

621
00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:42,360
wants to harm you, it seems to me, the only

622
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,000
thing that they're actually doing is just overwriting your personal preference.

623
00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:48,239
And I guess what would make your personal preferences more

624
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:49,039
valid than theirs.

625
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,519
Speaker 2: I don't think that I don't hold necessarily to objective ethics,

626
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,239
but I don't think that the idea of harm is

627
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,840
completely subjective and arbitrary. I don't think that stabbing you

628
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,320
in the chest is right simply because I've decided it's right.

629
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,920
I mean, there are aberrations out there where somebody might

630
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,800
have a distorted view of the world. But I think

631
00:38:11,039 --> 00:38:15,480
human beings on the whole understand that harm is simply harm.

632
00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:20,199
And the implication beyond that is that I can't properly

633
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:25,320
know unless I believe in God, or I'm shoplifting a

634
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,719
moral standard from a specific religion. Are you religious, Bob?

635
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,760
Are you invoking a certain God or representing a certain faith?

636
00:38:33,199 --> 00:38:36,559
Speaker 9: Well, I am Christian, but I guess from your response

637
00:38:36,559 --> 00:38:38,880
though it was more of a descriptive claim, right.

638
00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 2: Like, hang on, Bob, I'm giving you plenty of rope here.

639
00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:46,719
But it can be argued that Christian who says that

640
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,119
whatever God says defined my morality is or could be,

641
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,480
and certainly in history has been guilty of huge harm

642
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,119
saying that it was moral to do. So we're not

643
00:38:57,199 --> 00:39:01,119
just talking about the Crusades, you know, the torture chambers

644
00:39:01,159 --> 00:39:04,320
of the Crusades, etc. The burning of the people at

645
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,639
the stake for heresy, etc. The witch trials and all

646
00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:09,960
of these types of thing. I mean, throughout history, we've

647
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,440
seen tremendous harm done and excused by the belief in God,

648
00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:17,800
specifically the Christian God in this case, and it could

649
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,880
be argued that, hey, wait a minute, you actually surrendered

650
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,079
an innate and evolved moral ethical center in favor of

651
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,599
an externally handed out edict based on an archaic religion,

652
00:39:31,039 --> 00:39:34,760
and that is an abdication of moral responsibility.

653
00:39:35,519 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 8: Yeah.

654
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,079
Speaker 9: I think my contention was that would be God didn't

655
00:39:39,119 --> 00:39:43,079
command the Crusades. That was man made, and that seems

656
00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:46,119
to me the perfectly logical and reasonable that man is

657
00:39:46,159 --> 00:39:49,960
going to corrupt certain things, right, that's within the Christian purview.

658
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 2: All right, So if someone does something horrible in the

659
00:39:52,519 --> 00:39:57,199
name of religion, it's not God's fault. But if someone

660
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,800
does something good in the name of religion, that's God's plan.

661
00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:02,960
Is that what I'm hearing?

662
00:40:03,679 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 9: No, that's not what I'm saying because I can make

663
00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:09,559
the same argument that you just made back to you

664
00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:13,440
and say that there's plenty of examples in secular societies

665
00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:16,519
where you know who look at Stalin or Mow that

666
00:40:16,679 --> 00:40:19,599
led to the death and destruction of millions of people. Right,

667
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,079
But you would probably tell me that that's not really

668
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,679
tie to secular ethics. That's tied to the people. And

669
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,440
it seems like what you're trying to do is say

670
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,880
these people did bad thing, therefore that's on God.

671
00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 5: Right.

672
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 9: I think that you and I might see eye to

673
00:40:34,559 --> 00:40:37,480
eye on that that just because people do bad things,

674
00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:40,559
it doesn't necessarily tie back into their ethical system.

675
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: It sounds like you and I are talking about human

676
00:40:43,519 --> 00:40:47,599
beings doing what human beings do far better and far worse.

677
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,679
I've never said, and I don't think you were inferring

678
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,159
that I am saying that everything that human beings have

679
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,639
done is moral because they say it's moral. But I

680
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,800
simply reject this idea that religious people get a kind

681
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,880
of moral equity because they invoke the name of God.

682
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,440
Most of them live entirely secular lives anyway. They clock

683
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,719
in at church, but they drink and cuss and fuck

684
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,079
and do everything that everybody else does, and they are

685
00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:20,000
just as likely to be affected by this tumultuous world

686
00:41:20,039 --> 00:41:22,719
as anybody else. I would argue that we are all

687
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,679
doing our best, or most of us are doing our

688
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,199
best to try to make good decisions, to try to

689
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,519
minimize harm and maximize joy, and there aren't simply no

690
00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:35,639
gods needed to be able to do that. Now, being

691
00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:38,519
a Christian works for you. You know, you have every

692
00:41:38,599 --> 00:41:41,400
right to believe, but you don't have any sort of

693
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,840
moral high ground as opposed to secular people. In fact,

694
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:51,079
we find throughout across the planet, the more secular societies,

695
00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:54,039
whether it's counties, states in the Union here in the

696
00:41:54,159 --> 00:41:57,320
United States, or more secular nations around the world, you

697
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,760
will find the less religious they are have a greater

698
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,320
quality of life. The more their crime rate goes down,

699
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,320
the better their life expectancy goes up, and the overall

700
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,320
fulfillment level rises as well. This is totally counterintuitive to

701
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,880
the religious claim that you know, morality must come from

702
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,199
God for the benefit of human experience. We find the

703
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,360
least religious cultures are actually doing a whole lot better

704
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,079
on the whole. I think that's pretty exciting. You don't

705
00:42:26,119 --> 00:42:27,800
need a God to have goodness.

706
00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 9: I think I would agree with the first part of

707
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,480
your premise. I'm not saying that because people have God

708
00:42:33,559 --> 00:42:35,639
therefore they are moral, which I think is what you

709
00:42:35,679 --> 00:42:38,159
were trying to say, and I completely agree with you

710
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:38,599
on that.

711
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:41,159
Speaker 2: I think. No, no, no, what I was hearing is is

712
00:42:41,199 --> 00:42:44,920
that you're saying people who don't have God don't truly

713
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,960
have a barometer for morality. That's what I heard.

714
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 9: No, I'm not saying that either, Okay, because obviously, from

715
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,079
my worldview of God exists, you have the same moral

716
00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:57,639
standard that I do. What I'm saying is in the

717
00:42:57,679 --> 00:43:00,400
absence of God, and I can look at from an

718
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,880
atheistic perspective. If there is no God, to me, there

719
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,440
is no moral standard which says this thing good, this

720
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,559
thing bad. So from that perspective, even saying something like

721
00:43:10,639 --> 00:43:14,880
harm is bad to me is incoherent, right, Because if

722
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:17,880
from my perspective, I can cause people harm and I

723
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,639
can get what I want, there's nothing I can see

724
00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:24,039
that's invalid about that outside of I'm overwriting your personal

725
00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:25,280
preference of not harming you.

726
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: But what benefits the species benefits me. Right. If we

727
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,920
look back in the African savannah and we see someone

728
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,119
who was acting in antisocial ways, that person likely would

729
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:41,800
not survive. Right, There was an evolutionary benefit in pro

730
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,159
social behaviors. You lived longer, you were able to procure resources,

731
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:49,039
you were safer, and you were happier. And this has

732
00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:53,280
been coded into us genetically. We as a species are

733
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,480
more often wired for pro social behaviors. I know what

734
00:43:57,599 --> 00:43:59,880
it feels like to get punched in the jaw, right,

735
00:44:00,199 --> 00:44:02,039
I know what it's like to be the victim of

736
00:44:02,039 --> 00:44:05,000
a crime, and I simply don't want that for me,

737
00:44:05,079 --> 00:44:08,079
and I understand the implications of that for someone else.

738
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,519
To me, this is not complicated. Understanding the concept of

739
00:44:11,559 --> 00:44:16,480
harm for me isn't really a sticking point. I think

740
00:44:16,599 --> 00:44:20,519
we most of us understand what harm truly is, and

741
00:44:20,639 --> 00:44:22,679
so you know, I think you and I simply stand

742
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,760
apart on our perspective on whether or not we can

743
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,639
understand harm outside of a god concept.

744
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I don't think that's the argument that I'm

745
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,239
making that we can't understand harm. The argument that I'm

746
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:34,360
making is a little bit deeper than that.

747
00:44:34,679 --> 00:44:36,519
Speaker 2: I think you're saying, why is harm.

748
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 9: Wrong to begin with? Right? Because you brought up I don't.

749
00:44:39,119 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: Think you're hearing me. I understand I have a system

750
00:44:44,039 --> 00:44:47,039
of right and wrong, and I'm able to base it

751
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:52,360
on an evolved ethical system. Understanding what harm is allows

752
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,199
me to say harming is wrong. And while there are

753
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,400
aberrations among secular people, there are also people who have

754
00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:04,480
harmed and used their God as an excuse to harm

755
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,800
or hate or whatever. But ultimately we are coming back

756
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,159
to a human being, the human mind and heart, and

757
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:13,519
that's where I fall.

758
00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 9: Okay, but isn't that begging the question?

759
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:16,119
Speaker 3: Though?

760
00:45:16,159 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 9: If your morality comes from evolution, right, you've evolved this way,

761
00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:23,920
there's nothing that says that that evolutionary process is geared

762
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,159
at any sort of truth. So you're basically saying, hey,

763
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:30,519
we evolved this way because by my doing so, we're

764
00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:33,360
able to work in a community and you know it helps,

765
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,880
like I'm assuming it would be something like human flourishing.

766
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,360
But if another tribe came over there and killed all

767
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,719
the males and enslaved the women because that helped their

768
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,000
human flourishing, it would just seem to me from your perspective,

769
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,920
they haven't done actually anything wrong outside of just override

770
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,880
your preference of harm.

771
00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:56,599
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I can overstate how insulting that statement is.

772
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,639
By the way, if you want to talk about going

773
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:01,920
into a city and killing the men and enslaving the women,

774
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,320
let me introduce you to the biblical Old Testament.

775
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,559
Speaker 9: Yeah, but what's wrong with that? From your outside?

776
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 8: I cannot be.

777
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,119
Speaker 2: More clear than I've been. I cannot be more clear

778
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:15,559
to you.

779
00:46:16,519 --> 00:46:17,159
Speaker 9: Say it harm?

780
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:23,119
Speaker 2: Understand I see, I understand what harm looks like and

781
00:46:23,199 --> 00:46:24,199
how it feels.

782
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:25,159
Speaker 9: Why is that bad?

783
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 2: It is bad because anti social behavior is bad for

784
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,559
the species, even if true altruism doesn't exist, And we

785
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:40,519
can have that discussion, an argument that the idea that

786
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,639
I would not know that stabbing and shooting and raping,

787
00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:48,719
et cetera, are wrong because it's all, well, you know,

788
00:46:49,199 --> 00:46:53,199
if it benefits me, then it is moral. And yet

789
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,800
if I was a true Christian, then I would be

790
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,480
able to have that bar so I would know the

791
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:03,760
good from the evil. I find that, honestly, I'm making

792
00:47:04,079 --> 00:47:08,159
it is you are a Christian, You are a Christian.

793
00:47:08,199 --> 00:47:11,559
You're straw man, And you were saying atheists, how do

794
00:47:11,639 --> 00:47:15,159
they know? How do they even label something as harmful?

795
00:47:15,559 --> 00:47:18,559
Speaker 9: I'm not saying how they know. I don't think you're

796
00:47:18,599 --> 00:47:21,800
straw manning my argument, I'm not what I'm saying is well,

797
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:23,840
let me try to restate my argument, but that.

798
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: One more time. I've given you fifteen minutes, but go

799
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:27,360
ahead one more time.

800
00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:31,079
Speaker 9: From my perspective, it seems that atheism just boils down

801
00:47:31,119 --> 00:47:33,639
to moral relativism. It has nothing to do whether or

802
00:47:33,639 --> 00:47:36,039
not you know what right or wrong are. It's just

803
00:47:36,079 --> 00:47:38,920
that everything boils down to moral relativism. So if it

804
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,320
is all moral relativism, and you encounter somebody who has

805
00:47:42,519 --> 00:47:46,679
a diametrically opposed worldview to yours, it doesn't seem to

806
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:48,280
me that you could say to that person that their

807
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,400
view is invalid and that yours is valid.

808
00:47:50,519 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: You're damn right. I can say it's someone says that

809
00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:59,000
being what ramist and a murderer is moral. I can

810
00:47:59,159 --> 00:48:03,440
say that, I under understanding what harm is, what it does,

811
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,119
how it affects people, the species, the planet I live on,

812
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,440
I can then assess and understand that this antisocial behavior

813
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,599
is a net negative, not just for the species, but

814
00:48:15,679 --> 00:48:19,159
for the plane on which I live. And I can say, no,

815
00:48:19,599 --> 00:48:23,599
I've evaluated what this brings, what it takes away, what

816
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:28,320
the consequences are, and I can say this is demonstrably bad.

817
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,239
I just don't buy the whole moral relativism thing. I

818
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,559
don't think and what you're attaching, and even if you're

819
00:48:36,559 --> 00:48:39,920
not saying it out loud is I'm a Christian. Therefore

820
00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:43,840
I do have a greater basis for assigning ethical behavior

821
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,840
and non ethical behavior, knowing the difference, because an objective

822
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,800
moral standard bearer has told me so. I mean, you've

823
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,280
brought that to the party, even if you haven't led

824
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,800
with it here, and you and I simply stand apart.

825
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:01,559
Speaker 9: Okay, A fair eneh, thank you, Bob, appreciate I have

826
00:49:01,559 --> 00:49:02,199
a response to it.

827
00:49:02,199 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: But we can take off, all right, We'll see you later.

828
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:10,440
I don't think was I unclear? Was I unfair? I mean,

829
00:49:10,599 --> 00:49:12,079
where do your morals come from?

830
00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 8: Is?

831
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,079
Speaker 2: He says that's not the question, But it's these are

832
00:49:16,119 --> 00:49:19,360
adjacent at the very least. How do you know rape

833
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,599
and murder are wrong? Or how would if someone was

834
00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:24,679
raping and murdering, would you be able to say to

835
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,920
them that what they were doing is wrong? It all

836
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,800
comes back to that objective moral standard argument, or a

837
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:37,280
riff on it. We don't understand harm because no one

838
00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:42,920
there wasn't someone there who said raping is harmful. Well,

839
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,960
if you decide that raping someone is a benefit to you,

840
00:49:46,079 --> 00:49:50,239
then it's moral to you. Well, okay, let me take

841
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,079
you back to the Christian Old Testament again. You say

842
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,760
it just doesn't work, none of it works. Was I

843
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,559
unfair in the comments section? You just tell me I

844
00:50:00,119 --> 00:50:07,199
leave myself, I present myself prostrate? Wait, prostrate is the oregon?

845
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:14,440
I prostrate myself. I prostrate myself before you and ask

846
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:17,559
you to keep me accountable. Josh, just dialing in, Josh,

847
00:50:17,639 --> 00:50:19,559
thanks for calling. What's up? Hey?

848
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 7: First of all, I thought I was calling into the

849
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,000
thinking atheist that I think I called into the line

850
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,239
by accident. That was an incredible last call.

851
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 2: That's okay, honestly, I don't mind somebody. It's nice to

852
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,000
mix it up, get a challenge. From time to time.

853
00:50:32,199 --> 00:50:35,480
A lot of the callers on the line are so esoteric,

854
00:50:35,559 --> 00:50:37,360
or they're just so often the weeds. I'm not even

855
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,719
sure how to respond. At least this was a conversation

856
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,840
I could engage in a little bit. But I'm glad

857
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,400
you're here, Josh. What's on your mind?

858
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 7: Yeah? Well, first I wanted to say an update on

859
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:52,039
the hantavirus cruise ship. The couple that contracted hantavirus, they

860
00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:54,920
got off the ship and went bird watching near a

861
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,880
landfill that was like near where the ship low them off,

862
00:50:58,960 --> 00:50:59,960
and that's how they got cam.

863
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,039
Speaker 2: Ah. So this would explain what the rodents in the landfill.

864
00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 7: Yeah exactly. I was like you, I thought it was

865
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:08,679
rats on the ship, but it was rats in this land.

866
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. Thanks for the clarification. Well, that's that's

867
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,119
information I didn't have, and I should have done more

868
00:51:16,119 --> 00:51:18,239
diligence before I brought it up on the show. Thank

869
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,280
you for educating me. So it'll be interesting to see

870
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,320
you how the public responds to another public health crisis.

871
00:51:26,119 --> 00:51:29,079
I'm not optimistic, Josh, are you No?

872
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,119
Speaker 7: In fact, I just watched John Stewart on The Daily

873
00:51:32,159 --> 00:51:34,880
Show last night and his whole opening monologue was about

874
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,599
how the press is just trying to gin up another

875
00:51:37,679 --> 00:51:39,800
trying to get the ratings juice from another you know,

876
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:41,199
coronavirus like scare.

877
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, what else has happened in anything else?

878
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 7: I was just going to tell you. So I've been

879
00:51:47,039 --> 00:51:49,480
listening to you for about sixteen years, and it's a

880
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,320
real honor to get to talk to you. He kind

881
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,840
of helped me leave religion for good. I kind of

882
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,599
started to question it already, but I wanted to tell

883
00:51:56,639 --> 00:52:00,559
you about this the very first thing that made me

884
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:02,559
kind of give the side eye to religion. So I

885
00:52:02,599 --> 00:52:05,480
grew up in East Texas, in Paris, Texas, right on

886
00:52:05,519 --> 00:52:09,760
the Oklahoma border. And I was at church after a

887
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,360
service and my youth pastor's wife was helping me set

888
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,480
up for something we were doing after and I told

889
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,079
her about how it had a bad night's sleep the

890
00:52:18,159 --> 00:52:20,320
night before, and that every time I got to go

891
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,239
to the bathroom, it like something which would jump out

892
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,000
at me, or I would get spooked by something like

893
00:52:24,039 --> 00:52:26,639
a shadow or something. And she looked at me with

894
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,199
zero irony. She had to have been like twenty four

895
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,079
years old at the time. She looked at me with

896
00:52:31,159 --> 00:52:34,039
zero irony and said, those might have been demons trying

897
00:52:34,079 --> 00:52:37,800
to get in your body. Holy, even at like thirteen

898
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,440
years old, I was like, do you really believe that

899
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:42,199
that's insane?

900
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 2: There's demons? Well, you know they were probably did you

901
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,199
eat Oriole cookies, because it's possible that they infected your

902
00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:54,599
house with demons. Apparently Oreo's back demon delivery device. It's

903
00:52:54,679 --> 00:52:57,760
amazing the stuff that demons hitch hike on. I know

904
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,679
Pokemon had demons, he Man had demons. I think it

905
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,119
was Erica who had mentioned those La Boo Boo dolls.

906
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,639
I think they have horns on them, so they're obviously demonic.

907
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,840
There's so many demons to choose from, and now apparently

908
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,639
you've got to somebody warning you, dude. I am shocked

909
00:53:15,159 --> 00:53:19,320
by how chained to the fears of the demonic many

910
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,400
of these believers are. Every shadow, every knock in the

911
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:27,679
middle of the night, every dissonant sound, everything somehow is

912
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,920
linked to the depths of hell. It's crazy. Yeah.

913
00:53:31,039 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 7: I was born in nineteen eighty, so I was kind

914
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,119
of grew up in that satanic panic of the late

915
00:53:36,199 --> 00:53:39,119
nineteen eighties where you know, Pair metal was evil and

916
00:53:39,159 --> 00:53:41,480
they were backward masting messages and stuff.

917
00:53:41,559 --> 00:53:45,679
Speaker 2: So yeah, so how did you escape? You were religious?

918
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,400
But what was your ticket.

919
00:53:47,119 --> 00:53:50,159
Speaker 7: Out really was moving away from my small town to

920
00:53:50,159 --> 00:53:53,199
go to college. And I started meeting different people and

921
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,079
counting different ideas. It's basically because my dad is a

922
00:53:56,119 --> 00:53:59,320
trumper and it's like his worst nightmare, you know, the

923
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,400
whole thing at the Conservative movement talks about about colleges

924
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,280
being liberal bastions. I went to college and discovered there's

925
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,800
so much more and really started to question and dig in.

926
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,760
And then I think when I was thirty, I read

927
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,159
the entire Bible covercover, and then I read the entire

928
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,119
Quran cover coover, and I think two years later I

929
00:54:16,159 --> 00:54:17,519
discovered your radio show.

930
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 2: So, man, you're a veteran. I mean, I've only been

931
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,639
doing this for seventeen years, so you were there from

932
00:54:23,679 --> 00:54:26,679
the beginning. Let me ask you this, Josh, before I

933
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,599
move on. Was the Qoran as much of a slog

934
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:31,880
for you as it was for me? Because it was

935
00:54:32,039 --> 00:54:35,559
just so repetitious and so dry. I thought the Bible

936
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,920
was a chore, but the Koran was like sominex for me.

937
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,639
I don't know, did you struggle with Yeah?

938
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, I couldn't really make heads or tails of it,

939
00:54:44,079 --> 00:54:46,400
you know, like when I did the Bible, I actually

940
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,239
read another book alongside it, like from a Christian perspective.

941
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,679
Explaining the Bible to me, I was like, I really

942
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,360
tried to give Christianity a fair shake. But with you know,

943
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,320
with the Kuran, I had no guide, So it was

944
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,519
just I was trying to like decide for it on

945
00:55:00,559 --> 00:55:02,079
my own, which it's probably not the best way to

946
00:55:02,079 --> 00:55:02,320
do it.

947
00:55:02,639 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, I'm glad you bust it out. We

948
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,360
may have walked some of the same steps out there,

949
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:10,880
satanic panic and doubts and being introduced to the rest

950
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,400
of the world, and our families are looking around going

951
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,519
what the hell happened to our child kind of thing.

952
00:55:16,679 --> 00:55:19,599
So yeah, right, well, thank you.

953
00:55:19,599 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 7: Josh so much to let you go. But I really

954
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,000
appreciate you taking my call there.

955
00:55:23,159 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: It's an honor. Thank you very much. We'll see you later.

956
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,440
I am the antithesis of what my parents intended. I

957
00:55:29,519 --> 00:55:32,880
am not what was intended. Doesn't give me any joy

958
00:55:33,039 --> 00:55:35,599
to bring them shame, you know, when they say you're

959
00:55:35,599 --> 00:55:38,239
an embarrassment to the family, and I've heard those words.

960
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,679
I don't like that. I didn't want that. It's just,

961
00:55:42,599 --> 00:55:47,320
you know, it's the collateral damage from living an authentic life. Man.

962
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:51,400
I'd rather live an authentic life and have collateral damage.

963
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,840
Plenty more people to talk to and plenty more show

964
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:07,559
to come. We will continue next. I am so glad

965
00:56:07,559 --> 00:56:10,679
you're here. We are spending well over an hour mostly

966
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,119
just talking to members of this community about whatever's on

967
00:56:14,159 --> 00:56:17,239
their mind. I've got Luke dialing in on a web call.

968
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,440
Thanks for your patients, Luke, are you there?

969
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:20,079
Speaker 8: Hi?

970
00:56:20,199 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 9: That's that.

971
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad you're calling from the UK. Welcome

972
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,079
what's on your mind.

973
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:32,679
Speaker 3: I'm basically having some difficulties with my deconstruction. I'm raised

974
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,320
Catholic and been questioned my religion since about two thousand

975
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:42,360
and two. I'm openly gay and autistic, so when I'm

976
00:56:43,039 --> 00:56:48,760
came to start deconstructing, it was a big challenge because

977
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,840
I was coming out at the same time, and obviously

978
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:57,320
being raised Catholic, I was struggled to some degree with

979
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:02,519
reconciling that all of the structure and moral upbringing that

980
00:57:02,599 --> 00:57:06,239
have been brought with it. Up was being conflicted with

981
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:11,000
how I felt. And my younger brother has gotten married

982
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:15,000
in the last week in the registry office, and I'm

983
00:57:15,039 --> 00:57:18,760
really pleased to him, but obviously my mom in particular

984
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,400
is very, very religious, and so I was a bit

985
00:57:23,159 --> 00:57:26,079
It took me by surprise when I found out it

986
00:57:26,159 --> 00:57:30,079
was going to be a non religious ceremony. So it's

987
00:57:30,119 --> 00:57:33,199
come to me being questioned as to what I want

988
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:38,280
for myself from my partner. Basically, the last hole that

989
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:44,119
Mecatholicism has over me is about the afterlife and essentially

990
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:48,840
the prospect of reuniting with my family after I die.

991
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,119
And I've never quite managed to get over that kind

992
00:57:53,159 --> 00:57:58,880
of last hurdle of just accepting nothing beyond this well,

993
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,880
because obviously it is a scary proposition for someone who's

994
00:58:04,519 --> 00:58:08,840
basically expected that from a very young age. So I'm

995
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,400
just looking to have a see if there's anything that

996
00:58:11,559 --> 00:58:14,679
you might be able to recommend as a help and direction, because,

997
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,519
like you say, I think that one scared of is

998
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:22,000
trying to go and decide whether I'm just agnostic or

999
00:58:22,639 --> 00:58:25,280
if I am a spist, or if there's a spectrum

1000
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:29,840
along which I can happily be kind of religious or spiritual,

1001
00:58:30,239 --> 00:58:33,079
or if I have to sort of basically like I say,

1002
00:58:33,119 --> 00:58:36,760
with my autism, I'd like some definition black and white

1003
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:38,000
somewhere along the line.

1004
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, ambiguity as hard, isn't it. I think there's this desire,

1005
00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:46,559
or maybe we feel pressure sometimes to run from a

1006
00:58:46,679 --> 00:58:50,000
marker to another marker. I need to come here where

1007
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,519
I've got a clear definition, and here's the label that

1008
00:58:52,679 --> 00:58:55,679
defines this and this, and then I know exactly where

1009
00:58:55,719 --> 00:58:58,159
I am and I can put everything into categories, but

1010
00:58:58,239 --> 00:59:02,519
that's usually not life. Sometimes life is just freaking messy.

1011
00:59:03,119 --> 00:59:06,320
And my encouragement to you would simply be to give

1012
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,599
yourself some grace, be patient. You don't have to call

1013
00:59:09,679 --> 00:59:14,119
yourself anything, and if you are unsure, that's totally valid.

1014
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:19,800
I have a lot of compassion for religious people, especially

1015
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:23,679
when they are struggling with two specific things. One is

1016
00:59:23,719 --> 00:59:25,880
the fear of hell. Took me a year and a

1017
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:27,679
half to get over the fear of hell in my

1018
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,440
own life, even after I use the word atheist in

1019
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,760
regard to myself. This emotional baggage, this scarring, this fear,

1020
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,880
thirty years of that didn't go away quickly for me.

1021
00:59:38,559 --> 00:59:40,360
And the other thing is, I think the fear of

1022
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,960
death and the yearning to be reunited with the people

1023
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,199
that we've lost because we missed them and there's a

1024
00:59:45,199 --> 00:59:48,360
hole in our lives. I think that deserves a lot

1025
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:53,360
of compassion. I think, mostly for me, I've had to say, well,

1026
00:59:53,639 --> 00:59:58,000
do I see any evidence to believe it? Some people say, well,

1027
00:59:58,039 --> 01:00:01,039
I think there may be may we go on, and

1028
01:00:01,079 --> 01:00:05,320
they take some solace in that, whatever you know, I

1029
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,719
myself say, have I seen any evidence that there is

1030
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,960
a life beyond this life I have not. Okay, fine,

1031
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,159
what do I do with that information? The first thing

1032
01:00:15,239 --> 01:00:17,440
is is I need to come to terms with the

1033
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:21,559
fact that maybe life is finite. But in some ways

1034
01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:24,960
this is a gift because now if I think there's

1035
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,519
no evidence for life two point zero, that means I know,

1036
01:00:28,639 --> 01:00:31,280
I need to focus on the moments here. I need

1037
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,960
to maximize the relationships I have here, to say the

1038
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,920
words that I should be saying in the here and now,

1039
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,519
to set the goals and achieve the goals and not

1040
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:44,519
waste my life. The second part of that is I'm

1041
01:00:44,559 --> 01:00:48,679
no longer living for dying. I'll say this about my father.

1042
01:00:49,639 --> 01:00:52,079
He was a Christian in every sense of the word.

1043
01:00:52,119 --> 01:00:55,920
He's the most Christian dude that I had ever known,

1044
01:00:56,159 --> 01:01:00,159
and yet he lived for dying. He was like, I

1045
01:01:00,199 --> 01:01:02,679
need to go and create converts. I need to go

1046
01:01:02,719 --> 01:01:05,239
and spread the gospel so more people go to Heaven.

1047
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,280
I need to go and make sure that Jesus is

1048
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,239
pleased with what I'm doing on this earth. And he

1049
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:12,840
seemed to talk about Heaven and the Book of Revelation

1050
01:01:13,119 --> 01:01:16,840
all the time, and I realized at one point that

1051
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:21,000
he's really living for dying. He's not focused on now,

1052
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:25,679
He's focused on something out there that probably isn't even

1053
01:01:25,719 --> 01:01:28,800
out there. So while I don't have really a solution

1054
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,960
to your challenge, I can encourage you to don't get

1055
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,960
hung up on what you call yourself and don't beat

1056
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,719
yourself up if you're not comfortable in a specific spot.

1057
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,079
Life is messy. Things happen on a spectrum. There's an

1058
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:46,960
ebb and a flow of fluidity to our existence. And

1059
01:01:47,639 --> 01:01:51,400
if you find comfort in this notion that, well, who knows?

1060
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,400
Who knows? I mean, I told Natalie. Was it Christopher

1061
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,320
Hitchins who said, you know, if there's an afterlife? He said, well,

1062
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,519
I'd rather like surprises, And I think it's a lovely

1063
01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:01,800
way to kind of look at it. You know, it

1064
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,599
turns on there's something else on that'll be an interesting thing.

1065
01:02:04,679 --> 01:02:06,639
We'll figure that out when I get there. But in

1066
01:02:06,679 --> 01:02:08,800
the meantime, I'm going to live in the here and now,

1067
01:02:09,239 --> 01:02:11,920
and I'm going to have to accept some hard truths

1068
01:02:12,159 --> 01:02:14,960
about those that I have lost and about the suffering

1069
01:02:15,039 --> 01:02:18,079
in this world. There's no evidence that Jesus is going

1070
01:02:18,119 --> 01:02:22,239
to come and mop up, right, so, but it helps

1071
01:02:22,239 --> 01:02:24,280
me to focus in on the here and now, and

1072
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,480
you know, when you do that, I find that's a

1073
01:02:26,559 --> 01:02:29,960
much more fulfilling way to live despite the challenges. I

1074
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,280
don't know if any of that helps you at all, Luke,

1075
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,320
do you have any thoughts on my thoughts? Maybe you

1076
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:36,280
can improve on them.

1077
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 3: I mean, you've really assured me and a lot of

1078
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:41,440
what I had thought for myself. Like I said, I

1079
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,679
have put it some you know over the twenty odd

1080
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,719
years that I've bedekerstruct and come to live each day

1081
01:02:47,719 --> 01:02:51,480
as if it's my last and have every conversation as

1082
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,400
honestly as possible because I don't know if it will

1083
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,519
be my last. So it's all but in a positive

1084
01:02:57,559 --> 01:03:01,159
way to say, well, if I can affect Shadden whilst

1085
01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:03,639
I'm here, I'll do my best to do that. I

1086
01:03:03,679 --> 01:03:06,559
think it's just more, like I said, the fact that

1087
01:03:06,719 --> 01:03:09,760
my brother has gotten married and I know my partner's

1088
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:12,199
team to do so that it's thrown a bit of

1089
01:03:12,239 --> 01:03:15,039
a hand grenade into my head. Well, I kind of

1090
01:03:15,079 --> 01:03:18,920
always grew up expecting a church wedding, which obviously, being Catholic,

1091
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,440
I've already had issues over whether that would ever happen.

1092
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,639
Might come along that it might be sympathetic and change things.

1093
01:03:27,239 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 2: Well, that's a little bit of a different conversation. And

1094
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,320
forgive me if I missed it in the initial question.

1095
01:03:33,679 --> 01:03:36,800
You're saying, Okay, if we were to tie the knot

1096
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:39,800
if I don't do it in the Catholic church? Is

1097
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,119
this going to blow up in my face? Am I here?

1098
01:03:42,159 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 7: And that?

1099
01:03:43,079 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 6: I mean?

1100
01:03:43,559 --> 01:03:46,559
Speaker 3: Actually, I think I'm quite content that my mum is

1101
01:03:46,599 --> 01:03:50,360
actually quite progressive. This props the best word. She's very

1102
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,639
religious of her own beliefs, but she doesn't push it

1103
01:03:52,679 --> 01:03:55,599
on anyone else. So the fact that she's told her

1104
01:03:55,639 --> 01:03:59,239
into my brother's choice to have a non religious wedding,

1105
01:03:59,559 --> 01:04:01,159
and like I said, was a shock to me, but

1106
01:04:02,039 --> 01:04:05,719
it was quite an eye opener. That's okay, she's not

1107
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:08,679
going to have an issue with le doing that. And

1108
01:04:08,719 --> 01:04:11,800
I know my partner who comes from a Catholic family

1109
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:17,000
as well, he's knows that his family be welcoming with

1110
01:04:17,159 --> 01:04:22,280
me if we formally get engaged and married and everything else.

1111
01:04:22,519 --> 01:04:26,039
Speaker 2: You know how I got around it. You know, I

1112
01:04:26,159 --> 01:04:28,239
wasn't going to have a religious wedding anyway, but we

1113
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:32,679
went to a destination and got married in Alaska. So

1114
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,840
I mean, honestly, if you wanted to cheat where you

1115
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:39,679
could just sort of have plausible deniability. You could make

1116
01:04:39,719 --> 01:04:42,360
your wedding a destination wedding. You could come up with

1117
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,320
a themed wedding. You could do it in a way

1118
01:04:45,719 --> 01:04:49,559
where it's purposeful and it's got, you know, some personality

1119
01:04:49,639 --> 01:04:52,880
to it. But you know it's not necessarily going to

1120
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:58,519
get you into a theological conversations about marriage and Catholicism.

1121
01:04:59,159 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 3: I mean only the main reason I like the idea

1122
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,320
of a church, but it was just to be around

1123
01:05:04,639 --> 01:05:10,440
beautiful old architecture. So my own prefers like sides that

1124
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:12,159
that would be a library.

1125
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:16,159
Speaker 2: I will say something that's going to make this audience crazy.

1126
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,039
If you decided you wanted to get married in a church,

1127
01:05:21,119 --> 01:05:23,920
get married in a church, yeah, I mean doesn't mean

1128
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:25,599
you have to buy any of the shit that they're

1129
01:05:25,639 --> 01:05:28,960
selling theologically, and it doesn't mean you you know, you

1130
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:31,920
can still determine how the vicar or the priest, or

1131
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,800
the bishop or whatever conducts the ceremony, and that would

1132
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:37,400
be a caveat. But if that's how you want to

1133
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:40,079
do it, it doesn't mean that you're a sellout or that

1134
01:05:40,119 --> 01:05:42,639
you would admit that God exists. You were looking for

1135
01:05:42,679 --> 01:05:47,000
a certain theme, vibe and aesthetic, and you got it

1136
01:05:47,559 --> 01:05:50,159
and then you got on with the rest of your life.

1137
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:53,480
There's not really a wrong answer, Luke. Just decide what

1138
01:05:53,639 --> 01:05:55,800
you want and then do that. And you don't know

1139
01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:00,719
anybody else in explanation or apology. Okay, yeah, us right.

1140
01:06:01,079 --> 01:06:02,920
It's an honor to be able to chat with the

1141
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,679
elut and I hope all goes well over in the UK.

1142
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:11,480
Hanging there, okay, okay, thank you, see you later. Talent

1143
01:06:11,559 --> 01:06:12,880
is dialing in on a web call.

1144
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 8: Are you there, Talent, hell Seth, can you hear me?

1145
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 2: I can, indeed, what's on your mind?

1146
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 8: Well, I just want to first start off by saying

1147
01:06:22,639 --> 01:06:26,840
I'm calling from Mexico. I'm originally from Canada. And the

1148
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:31,400
topic it's related to this kind of elitist attitude that

1149
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:34,639
I think, and I don't include you in this, that

1150
01:06:34,719 --> 01:06:38,320
I think many Americans have had for many decades about

1151
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:42,000
being this greatest and superior country in the world, and

1152
01:06:42,039 --> 01:06:45,199
of course, obviously with being the number one country in

1153
01:06:45,239 --> 01:06:47,840
the world economically. I mean, there's I guess some real

1154
01:06:48,159 --> 01:06:52,280
justifications behind it. But my area that I focus on

1155
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:56,000
a lot is with respect to education and because so

1156
01:06:56,119 --> 01:06:59,480
many Americans for so long, We're able to develop and

1157
01:06:59,559 --> 01:07:02,239
have a good standard of living and live well even

1158
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:06,400
without having a higher education because blue collar jobs paid

1159
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:10,400
well and just a general American or American orginating is

1160
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,039
the same would be true in Canada and probably some

1161
01:07:13,159 --> 01:07:15,679
other parts of the world, maybe the UK, that it

1162
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,199
just gave many people. I think this idea that hey,

1163
01:07:19,519 --> 01:07:21,800
don't need to be a higher educated I just need

1164
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,320
to be an American. I just need to have what

1165
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:28,400
are considered might American Christian values, and that puts US

1166
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:31,039
in number one in the world because America is the

1167
01:07:31,079 --> 01:07:34,400
best place because where God believing Christian god believing nation.

1168
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:37,920
It has nothing to do with education about how I think.

1169
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,000
And then, of course eventually things change over time and

1170
01:07:41,079 --> 01:07:44,800
we've become more global and now being blue collar workers

1171
01:07:45,079 --> 01:07:47,639
doesn't necessarily give you a good standard of living. It's

1172
01:07:47,679 --> 01:07:50,800
a much more difficult strive and the rest of the

1173
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,719
world is catching up with the US, and I think

1174
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,599
a lot of people, a lot of Americans just feel

1175
01:07:56,719 --> 01:07:59,760
that somehow they're being cheated at of their birthright because

1176
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,639
this is how their fathers lived, their grandparents lived, and

1177
01:08:03,679 --> 01:08:07,440
everything was so much better economically and it's because many

1178
01:08:07,559 --> 01:08:11,159
people are just not higher educated to understand a broader

1179
01:08:11,159 --> 01:08:14,840
intellectual they have a broader intellectual understanding of the world

1180
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:19,439
and to understand that America had certain advantages and for

1181
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:24,359
a foriry long time, many Americans, many generations benefited from that.

1182
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:27,560
Oh and on top of that, the cause of education

1183
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,760
was just too expensive always for too many people to

1184
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:33,720
study a higher education, and that's led to America to

1185
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,479
where it is today. I think with respect to so

1186
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,920
many people falling in behind the MAGA movement and Trump,

1187
01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:43,239
not for being bad people, but they just missed out

1188
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:47,119
on having that chance to develop a more global intellect.

1189
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:50,239
Speaker 2: Well, let me add a perspective if I may, I

1190
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:51,640
think a lot of it too. I mean, there are

1191
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,600
a lot of people who you know, they don't have

1192
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:59,960
a master's degree and business who have become successful business people.

1193
01:09:00,039 --> 01:09:02,520
There are a lot of people who have become educated

1194
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,479
about the world in a great many ways. I think

1195
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:07,279
a lot of it has to do with kind of

1196
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:12,039
a cultural intelligence to see ourselves as part of the

1197
01:09:12,119 --> 01:09:15,279
human condition. And I think people who travel more in

1198
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:19,159
people who have a broader spectrum of experiences are less

1199
01:09:19,279 --> 01:09:23,279
nationalistic and they are more global in their thinking. You

1200
01:09:23,319 --> 01:09:26,319
are absolutely right that the United States has long been

1201
01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:29,520
a culture where we know we're number one. We just

1202
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:33,439
can't demonstrate how. I wrote a whole chapter about this

1203
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,520
in a book that I published years ago called Confessions

1204
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:39,600
of a Former Fox News Christian, and the chapter is

1205
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:44,000
called We're Number One? And it starts with an imagined

1206
01:09:44,079 --> 01:09:47,920
conversation with a Christian nationalist American and we're like, well,

1207
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,640
how are we number one? And they're like, we're we

1208
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:53,720
have freedom, we have a freedom of the press, and

1209
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,119
we've got a strong military and blah blah blah blah.

1210
01:09:57,119 --> 01:09:59,880
And of course the response is, we'll so do uch

1211
01:10:00,039 --> 01:10:02,880
shit a ton of other countries in the world, many

1212
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:06,479
of whom have it better, and we actually fail to

1213
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,760
much of the rest of the world in almost every metric,

1214
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:14,359
be it healthcare, violent crime, cost of living, average life span,

1215
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:19,319
who's the most warlike, our national debt or deficit, etc.

1216
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:22,640
And if you really want to live in the greatest

1217
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,800
country in the world, you're going to Switzerland. So I

1218
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:28,960
find it interesting. It's an interesting social experiment to talk

1219
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,319
to people about we are number one? When you ask

1220
01:10:31,399 --> 01:10:34,279
them why are we number one? And every single time

1221
01:10:34,319 --> 01:10:37,359
it comes down to a feeling We're just great. There's

1222
01:10:37,359 --> 01:10:40,479
just something about us. There's something special about America, you know.

1223
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:45,079
And I'm like, well, actually there's kind of not. And

1224
01:10:45,279 --> 01:10:47,079
some of the other parts of the world are looking

1225
01:10:47,319 --> 01:10:51,640
pretty attractive these days. I'm just saying, how are things

1226
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:54,039
in Mexico. I mean, has that been a good fit

1227
01:10:54,159 --> 01:10:54,520
for you?

1228
01:10:55,239 --> 01:10:58,199
Speaker 8: It's been great. I grew up in a pretty poor

1229
01:10:58,239 --> 01:11:02,399
family in eastern Canada. Nobody was higher educated. I was

1230
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:08,000
relatively unhappy, but I always respected education, and I struggled

1231
01:11:08,159 --> 01:11:10,159
in my final years of high school. But eventually I

1232
01:11:10,199 --> 01:11:13,840
got myself in the university and I studied a sociology degree.

1233
01:11:14,079 --> 01:11:17,560
It helped form who I am, and I developed this

1234
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:21,720
attitude that I had to experience other parts of the world. Eventually,

1235
01:11:22,279 --> 01:11:25,479
I decided that in order to have that type of opportunity,

1236
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:27,479
I needed to get into some type of work where

1237
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:29,920
I could do that. So I decided to become an

1238
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:35,279
English language teacher. Anyway, I eventually ended up here Economically, socially,

1239
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,520
I'm married, I have my son, and I don't think

1240
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:42,199
I could have the life that I have here, and

1241
01:11:42,319 --> 01:11:46,760
I'm experiencing a reality which I feel totally content.

1242
01:11:47,319 --> 01:11:51,560
Speaker 2: All right, well, I think we both agree American exceptionalism

1243
01:11:52,039 --> 01:11:56,159
is ridiculous and it's not founded in any kind of data.

1244
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:59,199
But you're very kind to call the show and be

1245
01:11:59,239 --> 01:12:01,479
a part of the convert station today and be safe

1246
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:02,359
south of the border.

1247
01:12:02,399 --> 01:12:04,800
Speaker 8: Okay, So happy to talk to you.

1248
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 2: All right, Bro, we'll hang in there. We'll see you later.

1249
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:08,119
Speaker 5: All right.

1250
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:13,159
Speaker 2: I've got Allah dialing in on a web call that

1251
01:12:13,279 --> 01:12:14,479
I say the name correctly.

1252
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:16,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was perfect.

1253
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. What's on your mind?

1254
01:12:19,199 --> 01:12:21,359
Speaker 5: Okay, So I guess I'll start with the question and

1255
01:12:21,399 --> 01:12:25,239
give some context. I basically want some advice on how

1256
01:12:25,279 --> 01:12:28,760
I shouldn't approach interacting with my brother's kids because they've

1257
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:33,119
been raised and brainwashed with the IBLP, the Institute of

1258
01:12:33,159 --> 01:12:37,199
Basic Life Principles, that cult that was in Shiny Happy People.

1259
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Bill Goth, that's crazy.

1260
01:12:40,119 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 5: Yeah. So my main concern is for the older girls

1261
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,279
because they've been parentified, and I just want to make

1262
01:12:47,319 --> 01:12:49,239
sure that they know they have a safe place with

1263
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:52,199
me if they decide to leave the religion or if

1264
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,399
somehow they managed to discover that there might be in

1265
01:12:55,439 --> 01:13:00,680
the LGBTQ. So there's eight kids, I think zero through thirteen.

1266
01:13:01,279 --> 01:13:05,119
I lost track after child number three, But yeah, his

1267
01:13:05,159 --> 01:13:08,720
wife homeschools all of them. They're super sheltered. They are

1268
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:11,760
not allowed to listen to secular music, they're not allowed

1269
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:15,199
to watch TV. Their only interaction with the outside world

1270
01:13:15,239 --> 01:13:20,039
is their church basically. And when I brought up Shiny

1271
01:13:20,079 --> 01:13:23,880
Happy People and like the IVLP concerns to my brother,

1272
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:27,439
he kind of made it seem like they only take

1273
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:30,800
the quote unquote good parts of the doctrine, so he's

1274
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,760
trying to downplay like how much they really are into it.

1275
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,079
But I feel like it's way more than that. And

1276
01:13:38,119 --> 01:13:40,720
they don't know that I'm an atheist as far as

1277
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:43,239
they know I'm Christian. So I just I don't know

1278
01:13:43,279 --> 01:13:46,479
how to like properly interact with the kids so that

1279
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:51,159
they know that I'm safe without kind of them alerting

1280
01:13:51,159 --> 01:13:56,000
their parents that I am encouraging them to question or

1281
01:13:56,079 --> 01:14:00,479
to let them, I guess, allowing them to have questions

1282
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:04,319
because I know that they have to basically report back

1283
01:14:04,399 --> 01:14:07,079
to the mom, because they do that whole umbrella of

1284
01:14:07,199 --> 01:14:10,560
authority thing where it's like the kids report to the mom,

1285
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:13,479
the mom reports, the dad reports the god type of thing.

1286
01:14:14,239 --> 01:14:17,399
So I just and they live states away, so basically

1287
01:14:17,399 --> 01:14:19,800
we only see them maybe like once a year. So

1288
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:21,359
I want to make sure that I do the best

1289
01:14:21,359 --> 01:14:25,039
that I can so that they know that I'm here. Well,

1290
01:14:25,199 --> 01:14:26,520
I just don't know how to go about it.

1291
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:32,079
Speaker 2: You're challenged on several fronts. Iblp is just so sinister,

1292
01:14:32,279 --> 01:14:34,920
So she's pretty much a trad wife. I picture her

1293
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:38,479
in like a floor length skirt and you know, almost

1294
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,039
churning butter on the porch. I need to readjust myself,

1295
01:14:41,039 --> 01:14:43,439
but it's like the Dugger family kind of vibe, is

1296
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:44,079
what I'm hearing.

1297
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 5: Pretty yeah, Actually, the Dugger family are the only quote

1298
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:51,840
unquote secular TV that they were able to watch crazy.

1299
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:55,039
Speaker 2: And that show was called nineteen Kids in Counting. By

1300
01:14:55,039 --> 01:14:58,319
the way, the Dugger family has been loaded with scandal,

1301
01:14:58,399 --> 01:15:04,000
sexual scandals, et cetera. But yeah, the fact that we

1302
01:15:04,079 --> 01:15:09,840
cannot parent someone else's children, which I appreciate, but the

1303
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:14,439
frustrating part is if someone is brainwashing their kids, we

1304
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:19,680
are hamstrung. Unless there's like physical abuse, and there might be,

1305
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:24,399
We're locked out of an opportunity to be an influence,

1306
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:29,039
especially if that environment is a high control, closed system.

1307
01:15:29,399 --> 01:15:34,000
So because we're not the parent, we're handcuffed. Beyond that,

1308
01:15:34,399 --> 01:15:37,399
you have not really told anybody that you're a secular

1309
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:42,520
or non religious person, so saying so plays your hand,

1310
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:45,039
and you may not be ready to do that, so

1311
01:15:45,079 --> 01:15:48,199
you're having to have that conversation. And then third, we've

1312
01:15:48,239 --> 01:15:50,880
got the geography of it. You're not even in their

1313
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,359
zip code for them to be able to see you

1314
01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:57,960
living essentially a secular life. So when they have questions,

1315
01:15:58,159 --> 01:16:01,159
they might say, hey, you might be someone to talk

1316
01:16:01,199 --> 01:16:03,760
to you, like when they're eighteen, you know, and it's

1317
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:08,640
not you intruding yourself into their lives. Normally, my answer

1318
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:11,239
would be, even though you you know you can't and

1319
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:15,479
likely shouldn't, parent somebody else children, you normally, if you're

1320
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:20,960
in their sphere, could be openly secular and they could

1321
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:24,159
see you, hey, is someone she's not religious, she doesn't

1322
01:16:24,199 --> 01:16:26,520
go to church, she doesn't believe in God, she seems

1323
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:28,680
like she's doing great, she's got a really good life.

1324
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:30,199
And then if they come to a point when they

1325
01:16:30,199 --> 01:16:32,960
start to question, you might be the first point of

1326
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:38,000
contact they have. But on several fronts, you're simply not there,

1327
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:40,800
and I'm not convinced there's really much you.

1328
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:45,159
Speaker 5: Can do and especially just for the older girls. So

1329
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:48,680
I know, like they didn't really get a chance to

1330
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:52,920
have a childhood, and I feel really terrible whenever I

1331
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:55,960
do get to see them. So I just I just

1332
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:58,119
don't know how to be there for them with how

1333
01:16:58,239 --> 01:17:00,960
controlled they are. Like my brother or didn't even let

1334
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:04,119
me buy a gaming console for them, so I doubt

1335
01:17:04,119 --> 01:17:07,159
that he'll let me buy them some form of communication

1336
01:17:07,239 --> 01:17:09,760
where I can just talk to them without the mom

1337
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:12,039
or dad being around, like without my brother or his

1338
01:17:12,079 --> 01:17:12,760
wife being around.

1339
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:16,239
Speaker 2: And does that take you into boundary violation issues? If

1340
01:17:16,239 --> 01:17:20,920
somebody was texting your child outside of your supervision, would

1341
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:24,039
you feel that that was inappropriate? It very well might be.

1342
01:17:24,319 --> 01:17:28,000
It is a catch twenty two. And unfortunately, you and

1343
01:17:28,079 --> 01:17:31,840
I live in a situation where in many cases we're

1344
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:34,439
not going to be able to have meaningful conversations with

1345
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:39,000
these kids until they are no longer kids. And in

1346
01:17:39,039 --> 01:17:42,680
your case, if you're not able to be visibly secular

1347
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,239
in front of them, then your hands are really tied.

1348
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:49,880
All I can hope is that your availability might serve

1349
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:53,119
you if something blows up in the future, maybe one

1350
01:17:53,159 --> 01:17:57,000
of the parents has an epiphany, you know, maybe when

1351
01:17:57,039 --> 01:18:00,439
the kids become teenagers, they start to become more curious,

1352
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:04,159
and you find an appropriate way to have conversations. But

1353
01:18:04,279 --> 01:18:10,319
it sucks watching kids get indoctrinated and that big wall

1354
01:18:10,399 --> 01:18:13,560
keeps you out. It's just brutal. So I don't have

1355
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:15,920
any good answers for you. All I know is I

1356
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:17,199
understand what you're feeling.

1357
01:18:17,359 --> 01:18:21,520
Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, thanks, it was good to hear your take

1358
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:23,359
on it, because yeah, I just felt like, oh, I

1359
01:18:23,359 --> 01:18:26,560
should be doing more, and I felt so guilty for

1360
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,600
not I don't know, somehow trying to do more. No,

1361
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:31,439
it's not your fault for them, because I know.

1362
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:34,600
Speaker 2: It's it's not your fault that they're in and honestly,

1363
01:18:35,159 --> 01:18:39,800
it's not your responsibility at least now, you know, when

1364
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:45,359
they're adults, young adults, when they are of age, then

1365
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:49,760
maybe there's a more compelling argument to be made to

1366
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:55,199
be proactive about bringing challenge to them in a loving way,

1367
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:59,079
in a productive way, in a way that doesn't attack them.

1368
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:02,840
But right now, you know, don't beat yourself up. It's

1369
01:19:03,279 --> 01:19:06,840
just not something you can control and that's a hard

1370
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:08,479
reality that we all have to face.

1371
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:13,399
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, yeah, thank you so much for your reassurance. Oh, idiot.

1372
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:17,319
Speaker 2: Hang in there and we'll talk again. Okay, you take care. Yeah,

1373
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:19,840
all right, we'll see you later. And with that, we'll

1374
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:22,640
call it a show and I will see you back here.

1375
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:26,840
I've got no illusions on the horizon. He's going to

1376
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:30,399
be a great interview. I've got Phil Zuckerman. He's talking

1377
01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:34,680
about morality and this myth that religious people are more moral.

1378
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:37,520
He brought receipts, he has data, So I'm going to

1379
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:40,520
play you with speech that he gave on that very subject.

1380
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:43,880
A lot of cool stuff on the horizon, and we'll

1381
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:45,680
do it in the coming weeks. Take care.

1382
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:49,439
Speaker 1: Follow the Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

1383
01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:53,079
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1384
01:19:53,119 --> 01:19:56,800
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1385
01:19:56,840 --> 01:20:00,520
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1386
01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:07,720
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