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Geese Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker VTK 23 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:33.280 every week another fascinating author talking about the most shockolant 24 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:37.400 and infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder with 25 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:40.879 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 26 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:53.000 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Supanski for the 27 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.560 program True Murderer, the most shocking killers in true crime 28 00:01:56.680 --> 00:01:59.280 history and the authors that have written about them. With 29 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:03.599 them the last six minutes is the true account of 30 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:06.840 the random and violent murder of sixteen year old Matthew 31 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:10.560 Martin Martin and his family's journey through the Canadian criminal 32 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:16.560 justice system. On July second, two thousand and five, Matthew Martin's, 33 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.680 while waiting near a skytrain station for a friend, was 34 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:24.400 approached by a woman named Katherine Quinn. Quinn wanted Matthew's 35 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.800 crucifix and jumped in trying to get it from him. 36 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.439 In the scuffle, she was scratched by something and began 37 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:33.840 screaming to her friends and her boyfriend Robert Fororeslen that 38 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:37.879 she had been stabbed by Matthew. Matthew rand but was 39 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:40.800 chased in a corner at the bottom of the escalators, 40 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:44.639 robbing and then beating and stomping him to death. Forcelaind 41 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:48.360 had even slit Matthew's throat. Quinn and Portland were arrested, 42 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:52.240 charged her, and sentenced for secondary murder. Now the family 43 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:55.479 faced the killer's appeals and the threat of another trial. 44 00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:00.400 As a result of family's ordeal, Matthew's mother, Sandra founded 45 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:05.800 FACT Families Against Crime and Trauma, working to help others 46 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:07.919 who have lost a loved one to a violent crime. 47 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:11.680 She has witness first hand the imbalance in the Canadian 48 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:15.000 justice system and believe it's time the season the rights 49 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:19.400 of victims supersede those of the offenders. The last six minutes, 50 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:24.039 Sandra Martin's Toner my special guest. Thank you very much, 51 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:27.560 sand Martinstner for agreeing to this interview, and welcome to 52 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:28.120 the program. 53 00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:31.039 Thank you for having me, Dan, thank you. 54 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:33.120 Very much for coming on in the program discussing on 55 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:35.039 this very incredible book. 56 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:35.840 Thank you. 57 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:41.240 I want to start right at the very beginning, I 58 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:45.719 think to be fair and talk about Matthew and his life. 59 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:50.319 Go right back to the beginning, and I guess we'll 60 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:52.960 just talk about right up to the faithful day itself. 61 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:55.599 But let's start at the beginning and talk about Matthew 62 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:56.159 in his life. 63 00:03:56.199 --> 00:04:02.520 Sure, sure, Matthew, of course was an amazing child. I 64 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:05.319 was truly, truly blessed for my first child. I was 65 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.319 a teen mom. I was seventeen years old when I 66 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:12.400 gave birth to Matthew, and I knew then the day 67 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:14.400 that he was born and placed in my arms, that 68 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.120 there was nothing I'd rather be doing than trying to 69 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:22.560 secure a wonderful, happy life for myself and my child, 70 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:27.279 and I did so. Matthew and I because of my age, 71 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:30.720 we became best friends. Not only mother and son, but 72 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:33.319 we were great friends. We loved to be around each other. 73 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:38.800 He was kind hearted, just a well rounded young man 74 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:41.720 who loved to help others in the community. He was 75 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.560 well known by the younger children. As he was thirteen 76 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:47.759 and fourteen, he'd go to the Boys and Girls club 77 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.279 in our community and teach the kids how to break 78 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:52.199 dance or. 79 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:53.720 He loved to sing. 80 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:57.839 So he was just an amazing and amazing child, and 81 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.240 he just had he aspired for so much in life. 82 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:05.000 And I think that's what is incredibly tragic with with 83 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:08.120 what you know happened to him, is that he could 84 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:13.600 he would have been a very contributing member of society. 85 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:19.800 So basically, you know what happened was it was the 86 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:26.199 Canada Day Long weekend here in Vancouver, BC, and Matthew 87 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:28.319 and his friends had decided to go and watch the 88 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:32.720 fireworks that evening, and you know, his father and I 89 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:35.439 really didn't think anything of it, being that you know, 90 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:36.839 Matthew was very responsible. 91 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:37.839 He had a cell. 92 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:41.959 Phone, he'd never given his data, and I any reason 93 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:46.160 whatsoever to you know, have an issue with this. So 94 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:49.879 off he went with his friends that evening to watch 95 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:53.399 the fireworks, and it had been discussed prior that he 96 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:57.040 would actually spend the night at his friend's house in Surrey, BC. 97 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:01.600 We live in Vancouver, so we had no problem with that. 98 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:04.120 We knew the Wheatons quite well for a few years 99 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:09.040 and they had moved from Vancouver to Surrey, and you know, 100 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:11.720 we were okay with that. So after the fireworks, I 101 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:15.360 guess the boys made their way back to David's house, 102 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:19.079 to the Wheaton's house, and they were playing some video games, 103 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.160 and Matthew got a phone call from a friend from 104 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:24.519 Vancouver saying that she was lost trying to find them. 105 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:26.480 I guess she was going to come hang out and 106 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:30.759 play games with the boys, And so Matthew went walking 107 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:33.920 to go and meet up with this young lady, and 108 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:37.319 on his way there, he happened to pass in front 109 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:42.199 of Catherine Quinn and Robert Forsland's home, and there was 110 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:45.839 a statement you made as Matthew was sort of approaching 111 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:49.959 them from Catherine Quinn to her own girlfriend. She said, wow, 112 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:53.040 check that kid's fat chain out. And really, what she 113 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.720 considered or thought was a fat chain was nothing more 114 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:59.639 than a very simple simple gold chain and crucifix that 115 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.480 was given to Matthew by my sister and her husband 116 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:06.959 for his sixteenth birthday. And as he walked past her, 117 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:11.079 she decided to jump him, and she jumped on Matthew's 118 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:15.519 back and a scuffle ensued, and like you had mentioned earlier, 119 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:19.879 they fell from the sidewalk onto the road, and we 120 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:24.879 assumed that Catherine Quinn landed on perhaps a stone or 121 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:29.480 a branch or something that caused a very superficial excoriation 122 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.720 of the skin, just a tiny little scratch, but she 123 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.600 started to and Matthew took off running at this point, 124 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:38.519 and she started yelling to her friends and to her 125 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:43.920 boyfriend that Matthew had stabbed her. So Katherine Quinn, in 126 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:48.160 two of her girlfriends, jumped into her girlfriend's car, and 127 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:51.240 Robert Foysland and his male friend that was there that 128 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:56.800 evening took off on foot after Matthew. The girls followed 129 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:01.839 Matthew in the car and chased him, and I guess 130 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:04.959 they finally, you know, they Maddie was running through apartments, 131 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:08.759 through fields, through houses, but they just they just kept 132 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:12.439 pursuing him, and finally, the only thing I can think of. 133 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:16.279 Of course, this is just my own personal opinion, being 134 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:18.920 that I don't know, you know, what happened, but I'm 135 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:21.319 thinking that Matthew probably thought if he could get to 136 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:24.279 that skytrain, he might have been able to jump on 137 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.920 and get out of there, or there was maybe some 138 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:30.120 security there, because there were some you know sometimes especially 139 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:35.120 in holidays, transit place that would attend the skytrain stations, 140 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:39.320 and you know, I think that's perhaps what crossed Matthew's mind, 141 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:43.879 and that's why he ran in that direction. So they 142 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.480 pursued him and did find him and cornered him at 143 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:51.519 the bottom of the escalators, and and everything that they 144 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:57.240 did to Matthew was caught on these skytrained surveillance cameras. 145 00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:59.559 And this is exactly this is why I've named the 146 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:04.080 book the Last six Minutes, because in those six minutes 147 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:07.480 they took my child's life that in the time it 148 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:10.360 could take you or I to walk into a Starbucks 149 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:13.000 and purchase a cup of coffee and drink it. They 150 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:17.840 took a child's life. I've never watched the video, although 151 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:20.360 it was played hundreds of times during the trial, but 152 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:23.679 I looked away. There was no sound. I have been 153 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.519 told by people who did watch it that it has 154 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.279 traumatized them for life. It is It is the most 155 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:34.679 brutal assault on a child. And the difference in size 156 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:40.480 is what really really hits you. Fordland was about six, 157 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:43.759 I guess six one sixty two. Matthew was five five 158 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:47.000 maybe one hundred and twenty five pounds four. Land's a 159 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:52.600 very big, stocky man, and he they basically picked him 160 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:57.480 up and threw him headfirst into plexiglass windows. They stomped 161 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:02.879 on his head, they kicked him, They broke beer bottles 162 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:07.240 on him. They then used a beer bottle and slit 163 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:09.919 Matthew's throat and he would bleed out on that platform, 164 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:13.440 and I would get a call from his friend because 165 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:16.960 David would you know. Of course, notice that Matthew never 166 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:20.639 came back and started walking in that direction and heard 167 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:25.799 sirens and saw police car lights, and when he arrived 168 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:28.879 at the scene, he noted that the clothes on the 169 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:33.399 ground that the paramedics had cut off of Matthew were 170 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:35.960 his friends, and he ran up to the police officer 171 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.440 and said, you know, this is my friend's clothing. So 172 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:43.480 of course they took him into custody as well for questioning, 173 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:47.000 and it sort of unraveled from there. I would receive 174 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:49.639 that call from David at three o'clock in the morning 175 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:52.440 letting me know. I mean, of course he didn't know 176 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.799 what had happened. All he told me over the phone 177 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:58.960 was that Matthew had been assaulted. That he overheard the 178 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:01.919 police officers saying that Matthew had been taken to Royal 179 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:06.519 Colombian Hospital, and that's when the nightmare began for my family. 180 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:07.559 We lost Matthew. 181 00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:09.039 He was. 182 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:14.879 Brain dead even by the time we had reached the hospital, 183 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:17.080 and the doctors basically told us that there was no 184 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:22.840 way he could survive the trauma from the blunt force 185 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:26.879 to his head and brain. He had suffered terribly and 186 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:30.480 that we had to make a decision to turn the 187 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:34.080 machine off and allow the child to rest in peace. 188 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.559 And that was the scariest day of my life. Dan, 189 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.159 I will never forget it. It was an awful moment. 190 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:44.879 Now let's go back just a little bit. The thing is, 191 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:49.960 is this shocking on surprise, this devastating any news. Yes, 192 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:53.360 didn't happen all at once. You know, I don't know 193 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:57.039 what the intention was the hospital staff, but heading to 194 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:00.960 the hospital, you had no idea the extend of his injury. 195 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.679 No no idea whatsoever. I had. 196 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:06.679 Like I said, I got to call at about three 197 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:11.759 a m. And I rushed, of course, to you know, 198 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:15.120 I'm yelling on the phone to his poor friend David, 199 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:17.080 who's in the back of a police car calling me 200 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.159 from his cell phone, and I ran to the you know, 201 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:24.519 the kitchen to grab the Yellow Pages so I could 202 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:27.720 look up the phone number for the hospital and would 203 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:33.159 you know, finally reach someone in the emergency area. And 204 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:36.480 they basically told me that, you know, I started to 205 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:39.360 describe my son and felt that he was a young 206 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.039 man that had just been brought in on an assault. 207 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:47.519 And the woman that the nurse basically said to me, 208 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:50.159 I think that it's a match, but we do need 209 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:53.519 for you to come down here, uh and just take 210 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:56.639 your time. And all I can say, Dan, it was 211 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:00.519 the longest car ride of my life. You know, we 212 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:03.840 didn't drive crazy. We you know, we tried to, but 213 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:08.279 that entire car ride, you are inside your head like 214 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:11.720 you can't. I don't even know how to describe those moments. 215 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:16.519 They are so surreal because you don't know what to expect. 216 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.639 You know. Here I was thinking I would go to 217 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.000 the hospital and he's getting some stitches, and you know, 218 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:25.159 we would cry and and but he would still come 219 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.600 home bumped and bruised, and his little brothers and him 220 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:31.039 would be, you know, back to the same old, you know, 221 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:35.320 family stuff. But unfortunately I would be coming home that 222 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.759 morning telling his two little brothers that he had died 223 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.720 due to the brutality of the beating. 224 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:48.759 Right, And what I was really struck by was that 225 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:53.120 you were pregnant at that time, and so they felt 226 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:56.519 everyone felt that maybe would be best if your husband, 227 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:02.000 who's not Matthew's biological father but still his stepfather of course, 228 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:08.519 and your husband to go in and identify Matthew yes, 229 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.919 for the police. And then it was the reaction that 230 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.320 you had when you saw him. You knew something was 231 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.519 a myths up to that point. I don't think in 232 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:20.840 the book you conveyed that you didn't actually know the 233 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.120 extent you were hoping for the best. But when you 234 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.480 saw him, tell us a little bit of just about that, 235 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:27.480 because I think it's sure. 236 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.360 Like you mentioned, my husband and I had just recently 237 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:34.519 found out that I was pregnant with our fourth child. 238 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:41.720 In fact, we had just probably three weeks earlier, told 239 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.440 our children, our boys, Matthew and his two younger brothers, 240 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:51.039 Mitchell and Brayden, that I was pregnant. And Matthew was ecstatic, 241 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:54.720 especially at the thought of having a baby sister, because 242 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.679 he already had two baby brothers. And he would tease 243 00:14:57.720 --> 00:14:59.919 me all the time saying, you know, mom, you're just 244 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:02.000 going to have another boy. And I you know, I 245 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:04.919 remember saying to him, no, Maddie, we should pick a 246 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:07.600 girl's name. Let's pick a girl's name and and you 247 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:10.080 will will it to happen. And it was it was 248 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:13.120 just really really funny how he had jumped on the 249 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:17.080 computer and picked out an incredible name. Her name is 250 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:21.600 Chaiya and uh it just basically it's a Hindi name 251 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:24.879 and in the everyday language it just means shadow. And 252 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:27.360 he just thought and he said, well, how appropriate is 253 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:29.519 that She's going to be like our you know, our 254 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:34.480 little shadow. Oh yeah, So you know, like you said, 255 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:37.600 I was, I was pregnant. And when the doctor, when 256 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:39.759 the nurses said, you know, they needed someone to come 257 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:43.120 in and identify Matthew, he was still on the operating table, 258 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.440 to make sure that it was our son. My husband 259 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.559 said to the nurse and the police officers that, you know, 260 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:51.840 my wife is pregnant. Maybe it's not a good idea 261 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.120 for her to do this. You know, We've got to 262 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:57.600 be really careful. And they agreed, and so off David went, 263 00:15:57.679 --> 00:15:59.799 with the nurse on one side of him and a 264 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.879 police officer on the other. And I, honestly, I can't 265 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.200 tell you, Dan how long it was. It could have 266 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.039 been two minutes, it could have been half an hour. 267 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:11.440 But what I do remember is that when they brought 268 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.799 David back into that little side room, they had kept 269 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.960 us in, the nurse and the police officer on either 270 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:23.639 side of him, holding him up. And I've never seen 271 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:26.360 that look on my husband's face. And I knew the 272 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:29.279 moment I looked up into his eyes that something was 273 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:31.279 not I knew, of course, that it was Matthew, but 274 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:35.679 I also knew that whatever he saw was so traumatic 275 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:38.399 and horrific that he would never I would never it 276 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.159 would go to his grave with him. He would never 277 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:42.759 tell me what he saw that night. 278 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:47.320 Wait, the Lucky Landslide. You can get lucky just about anywhere. 279 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:50.919 This is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and 280 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:52.759 the weather's five. But we're just going to circle up 281 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.000 here a while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. 282 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:58.519 It's just these cash prizes add up quick. So I 283 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.840 suggest you sit back, keep your right table up right, 284 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:02.039 and start getting lucky. 285 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:05.839 Pay for free at Lucky Landslides dot com. Are you 286 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:09.279 feeling lucky? No, for just necessary void. We're prohibited by 287 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:12.519 law eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply to see website 288 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:13.440 for details. 289 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.240 You know, it's just it's awful, and you know, basically 290 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.079 he you know, the one thing he did say was that, 291 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.119 you know, he had to be very careful. He said, 292 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:27.960 I wouldn't have recognized him by first glance. And this 293 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:30.920 is a child he has raised since Matthew was seven 294 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:35.559 years old. I spent a lot of time with together. 295 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.680 And he also said what confirmed it for him was 296 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:44.039 that Matthew was wearing He remembered Matthew wearing the same 297 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.839 camouflage boxer shorts earlier in that day and he had 298 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:51.000 seen Matthew wearing them earlier that day, So that is 299 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:55.839 truly what confirmed and Matthew's hands. 300 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.160 Right, because you had you described it as the sheets 301 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:01.319 and towels cover Matthew's body covenation. 302 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:06.240 Yes, yes, yeah, they by the time they brought me 303 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.160 in and they had brought Matthew into, I see you, 304 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.680 they I never got to see Maddie's face because of 305 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.720 the damage that they had done during the beating. They 306 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.279 had to keep Matthew's face covered with towels, so all 307 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:24.960 that was poking through was just the tip of his chin, 308 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:29.480 Like I couldn't even see his bottom lip because of 309 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:34.160 the damage, and and the bleeding was just so so profuse. 310 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:37.319 The nurses would have to usher us out every ten 311 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.079 fifteen minutes to be able to change the towels that 312 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:44.640 were covering his face and head so that we wouldn't 313 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:47.440 have to sit there with him bleeding through these towels. 314 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:50.440 And that's how much damage they did to my beautiful 315 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:52.359 child's face and head. 316 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:58.680 It's incredible. Now, part of your Christian faith you wanted 317 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:01.759 him or your religious face part of me, I'm not 318 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:04.880 sure if you're Christian, but you wanted him baptized, and 319 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:10.759 according to your faith, you contacted a father Michael, correct 320 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.599 and it was important too that you talked to he 321 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:18.319 asked how he asked something about being sure if Matthew 322 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:20.680 wanted to be baptized, and you talked about the crucifix. 323 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:21.960 Tell us a little bit about that. 324 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:26.359 Well, it's funny. I was born and raised a Catholic 325 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:31.960 from a Portuguese family, and when I had Matthew, I 326 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.279 thought it would be best that I allow my children 327 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:38.240 to choose their own faith. I didn't because the way 328 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.359 it worked for us is as children were baptized even 329 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:43.960 before we can walk or talk, so really you have 330 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:47.720 no choice. And I always felt that maybe it'd be 331 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:49.759 a good idea to allow your child to pick their 332 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.920 own faith, and so I had always left it that 333 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:56.240 But from a very very young age, Matthew was always 334 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.839 drawn to the whole concept of Catholicism, and and like 335 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:06.200 my own and you believed in going to church and 336 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:09.720 loved you know, all of that stuff. And so it 337 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:13.640 seemed to given that Matthew was going to, at some 338 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:17.000 point in his life adopt the Catholic faith. 339 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:18.400 And so. 340 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:22.599 I think he was probably thirteen or fourteen when he 341 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.440 asked for his first crucifix, and I felt comfortable enough 342 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:27.720 to allow him to wear a piece of jewelry that 343 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.359 he was mature enough to take care of that, and 344 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.759 so we bought him one. And I think it was 345 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.839 just before his sixteenth birthday, a year before the actual 346 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:42.319 robbery of and beating death. He had actually been robbed 347 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:46.279 in our own community of that crucifix. And it wasn't 348 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:50.519 until his sixteenth birthday that my sister and brother in 349 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:54.039 law decided to purchase for his sixteenth birthday a new 350 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:57.799 chaining crucifix, and this would be the chain and crucifix 351 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:00.200 that he would end up losing his life over. So 352 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:04.240 it's it's just it's so very sad, I you know, 353 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:09.720 I wish, yeah, yeah, very It really shook the foundations 354 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:12.799 of my faith and my beliefs because I just thought, 355 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:17.039 what God would allow this to happen? But what I 356 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.119 didn't realize. I mean, I thought, you know, I fought 357 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.279 over this for for probably two or three years. I 358 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:26.519 felt as though, you know, this was some cruel, sick 359 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:29.720 joke on God's part, you know, you take my beautiful 360 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:33.119 child and I'm pregnant, you know, and the guilt I 361 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:37.119 suffered with terrible guilt over being pregnant and you know, 362 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:39.960 bearing a child and bringing a child into the world. 363 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:47.319 It was just this unbelievable feeling of just confusion. So yeah, 364 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.119 it's it's been an incredible, incredible journey, that is for sure. 365 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.480 Now your first encounter, and I guess this would would 366 00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:58.680 shape a lot of things and a lot of your 367 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:03.759 feelings later on. But a woman from Victim Services contacted 368 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:06.359 you and gave you some booklets saying they would help 369 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:09.039 you in the process of grieving. How did you react 370 00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:13.079 to that first encounter with someone from the government, from 371 00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:14.160 the victim services. 372 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:17.720 Right, I have to be honest with you, my first 373 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:21.240 encounter with someone from Victim Services was not a very 374 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:24.720 good one. In fact, it happened as we were I 375 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:28.720 had we had just left Matthew's body. He had we 376 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:32.240 had turned the machine off, Maddie had taken his final breath, 377 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:35.720 we had spent some time with him before we left, 378 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:40.079 and basically my husband was carrying me out of that 379 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:45.319 ICU unit towards the elevator, and all I remember is 380 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:49.559 this woman sitting off to the side, to my left side, 381 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:54.119 on these lounge couches there in the waiting room, and 382 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.160 just as we were going to get into the elevator, 383 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:00.400 she just sort of appeared in front of my face 384 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.480 with a handful of pamphlets and she looked at me 385 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:08.119 and she said, here, you know, missus Toner, these pamphlets 386 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:10.880 are for you, and and they will, you know, tell 387 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.559 you how you're supposed to grieve, and and they will, 388 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.519 you know, show you what's gonna happen and what's gonna 389 00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:18.400 what you have to do next. And I just remember 390 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.920 trying to process that, and I remember thinking to myself 391 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:26.000 at that very moment, like, what you mean there's there's 392 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:30.680 instructions on how to grieve, on how to go through this, 393 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:33.839 and I just, you know, I just thought, this is wrong. 394 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.359 This is absolutely wrong to be doing this and handing 395 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:40.799 these to me, because and and over the years, I've 396 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:44.519 learned this, there is no there are no instructions, there 397 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.000 are no rights and wrongs of grieving, and there's no 398 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:53.440 time limit on how it all works for everybody. It's different. 399 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:56.240 So that was my first encounter, and it was not 400 00:23:56.359 --> 00:23:57.160 a good one. Dan. 401 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:03.480