WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.839 Meaning a live man like this man letting butterfly flapping 2 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:07.960 and wing dig down in the forest. Man, it gonna 3 00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:10.880 cause a tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. 4 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:18.719 Man, nobody see, nobody. 5 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:18.559 See. You don't need to know. 6 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:22.280 Many like you followed a little story and you got 7 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.480 directed for like that. That's the way. Man, don't likely 8 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:27.839 dag on the panel, man, Man, you don't matter. 9 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:38.200 Man No ready, mister D welcome back to the Jay 10 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:38.719 Burden Show. 11 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:42.039 Well, thank you very much, mister j bur and I'm 12 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:44.880 very very happy and please always to UH to see 13 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:47.719 your handsome visage and to UH to be back kid 14 00:00:47.799 --> 00:00:48.280 talking to you. 15 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:54.439 It's it's genuinely always a pleasure to have you on UH. 16 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:57.799 In a previous era of streaming, you and I came 17 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:02.560 into contact much more. But as things have changed, I've 18 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:05.920 made a deliberate effort to UH to keep in contact 19 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:10.400 with you because I always enjoy our conversations. You were 20 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:15.359 speaking before we went live about your your new project 21 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:21.799 of going over Twin Peaks and I have there's sort 22 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:25.840 of a shameful admission, mister D that not only have 23 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:29.200 I not seen Twin Peaks, but the only David Lynch 24 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:32.280 film I have ever watched is Rabbits, which was very 25 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:32.959 very odd. 26 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:38.280 Wow, that's that's a bit unusual to have seen that 27 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:41.959 and not same. I mean I've barely seen that, you know. 28 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:47.239 I mean the Rabbits were, Yeah, the people don't know. 29 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:49.000 The Rabbits were kind of a they were kind of 30 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:54.200 an off shoot of David made. His final feature film 31 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:57.560 was called Inland Empire, which was made in the mid 32 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:02.040 two thousands, and it was shot on sort of low 33 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:04.959 end digital video cameras. There's some very old things about it. 34 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:07.519 I quite like that film, but yeah, the Rabbits were 35 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:12.840 were kind of related to that, although the rabbit thing 36 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.400 apparently has been around with him for a very long time. 37 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.840 But the thing about Lynch is he's so there's just 38 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:23.039 so many different projects that he's been involved in, you know, 39 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:28.439 certainly like from you know, just big studio cinema, some 40 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:29.919 of the things that he did in the you know, 41 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:33.479 in the seventies and eighties obviously to you know, to 42 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:36.639 some very small, very weird, obscure projects. But see, you 43 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:40.240 get a pass because you're you're a zoomer and so 44 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:43.719 you're not expected to have any cultural knowledge whatsoever. So 45 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:46.280 you know, so you're all right. 46 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:53.759 I appreciate your four barons. If nothing else, the I'm 47 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:57.599 sort of fascinated by Lynch. And actually I've been meaning 48 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:02.520 to go to go through Twin Peaks because my current house, 49 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:07.639 we have a second unit, and the couple that rents 50 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:11.840 from us, he's a massive fan of Lynch. And you know, 51 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:14.039 once he he heard that I hadn't seen it, he 52 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:17.599 insisted on it, so it's on the docket. And I 53 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:20.840 really had gone through my entire life without knowing really 54 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:25.800 almost anything about it. And till you know, Dave Green 55 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:28.879 did a series of sort of essays where he mentioned, 56 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:35.360 you know, mentioned Twin Peaks and particularly this is his analysis, 57 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:36.919 not mine. Obviously I haven't seen it, but he was 58 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.400 speaking about the sense that it is, you know, that 59 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:42.759 the town is sort of a place that has has 60 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:45.879 already died and no one has realized it yet. And 61 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:48.639 you know, even just that that simple meme, that simple 62 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:53.680 idea was very sort of powerful and profound, because mister 63 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:57.199 d I know you're you're a fan of Americana, and 64 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:02.120 I am too in a way because I've never lived 65 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:04.719 in an era where Americana was alive, where it was real, 66 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:08.879 where it was something that existed on its own right. 67 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:11.439 It's always been the kind of you know, slightly run 68 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:15.639 down gas station off the main road and not to 69 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.920 get to Maudeline, you know what, three minutes in. But 70 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:23.120 it has been something I've I've been thinking about quite 71 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:25.680 a bit, you know, as we kind of watch this 72 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:29.920 administration flounder and try and pull in a lot of 73 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:35.199 this kind of classic Americana, classic symbols of the nation 74 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:39.680 very ineptly, you know, after they already seem to have 75 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.360 have died and sort of lost their power. Am I 76 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:44.240 entirely pulling it? 77 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:47.920 Straws there, mister d No, I certainly see what you're getting. 78 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:52.079 I would say that that a very useful way to 79 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.240 approach David Lynch is certainly actually in a way to 80 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:01.720 contrast him with particularly Paul Titians, you know who, you 81 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:07.720 who certainly use quote Americana in an almost entirely cynical way, 82 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:10.680 you know, I mean generally when it is invoked. I 83 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:12.959 mean Democrats now sort of try to do it. I mean, 84 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.160 I remember Obama used to try to do it as well, 85 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:20.199 you know, but usually when politicians do it, it's done cynically, 86 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:23.680 It's done in a way to manipulate you for one 87 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:26.720 reason or the other. With David Lynch, it's very important 88 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:28.639 and I think a lot of people get this wrong 89 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:31.600 about David Lynch. Is that I mean, if you're aware 90 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:33.959 of him as a person, you know, if you watch 91 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:38.519 interviews with him, certainly, but also just going through his work, 92 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:44.399 is you must understand that he is never cynical about America, 93 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.920 like his strange what a lot of certainly younger people 94 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:54.120 read as you know, kind of slightly campy or you know, 95 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:58.120 or ironic. It's not ironic at all, like he you 96 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:02.399 know that whole you know, cherry pie and coffee, and 97 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:07.439 you know, white picket fences and fire trucks and you know, 98 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:11.959 and quirky characters. I mean, he genuinely loved and embrace that. 99 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:15.079 I mean, that's what he was like, you know, and 100 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:20.079 it's just so powerful and so strong, and he expressed 101 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:22.040 it in such a strange way that I think a 102 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:26.959 lot of people take take his sort of embrace of this, 103 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:32.160 this sort of particularly mid century, you know, nineteen fifties 104 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:37.120 era fascination as being as being again cynical or ironic, 105 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:39.519 and it's not, you know, And certainly to contrast that 106 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:41.279 with the way that's you. You know that the way 107 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:44.519 those tropes are used by by politicians, by other people, 108 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.560 it's it's just just absolutely opposite. And I think it 109 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:51.519 helps people to understand David Lynche much better, just just 110 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:54.439 to realize whatever you're watching. And of course there's all 111 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:58.920 kinds of seediness and subversion and dark, terrible things and 112 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:00.920 visions that he showed, you know, that he that he 113 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.399 brings to light, but that the underlying sort of fascination 114 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.600 with the character of America is absolutely pure, you know, 115 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.759 and lovely, and he loved it, you know, there was 116 00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:15.560 not a drop of irony about it. So and I 117 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:17.879 encourage you to watch some some sort of interviews with 118 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:20.480 him because you know, he he of course had a 119 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:24.920 very distinct way of speaking, you know, oh, well, very 120 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:29.199 happy to see you today. Now we're going to look 121 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:33.199 at at you know bugs, buddy. Yeah, I mean he 122 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:36.560 that was not an act like that's really how he was. 123 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:44.279 Well, and I sort of it kind of fell in 124 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:47.319 love with the figure because the figure of David Lynch, 125 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:50.560 because I don't know if you remember, during the pandemic 126 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:54.480 and briefly afterwards, he had a YouTube channel where he 127 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:59.759 just read the weather and At first, I was sort 128 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:04.000 of anticipating the other shoe to drop right there, to 129 00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:06.680 be some sort of reveal, some sort of bit right 130 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:09.160 where we were all at on the joke. But no, 131 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:11.399 he was just reading the weather and he. 132 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:15.639 Was doing it a fit months on end. Yes, yeah, And. 133 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:18.879 I don't know why. I just found it incredibly amusic, 134 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:23.439 like almost like the entire time, just the fact that, 135 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.040 you know, everyone was sort of analyzing He's looking for 136 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:32.519 some great hidden message and there simply wasn't one. It's interesting, 137 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:40.159 the sort of lack of the lack of cynicism because 138 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:45.000 in the same way that there is a hontology of 139 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:48.240 Adeolf Hitler in the case, you know, Irving made the 140 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:50.960 point that you know, there are two Hitlers. I write 141 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:52.799 about the real man, you know, not the sort of 142 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:57.159 Hollywood version. There's an equal sort of hontology of the 143 00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:03.759 nineteen fifties in a like the the American psyche. Because 144 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:07.799 if you one of the things you've become aware of, 145 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:11.120 if you're like genuinely interested in like the academic left, 146 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:16.200 is that they haven't really had a new idea since 147 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:19.759 roughly nineteen ninety four, and even that new idea is 148 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:22.480 kind of just an idea that someone had, you know, 149 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:27.000 thirty years prior. And this is a point that your 150 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:30.600 former co host made right that almost you know, by 151 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:34.960 and large, the entire academy exists to deconstruct and attack 152 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:41.480 the kind of you know, rosy version of Pat Buchanan's childhood. Right, 153 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:46.320 and every time you see some you know, historical photo 154 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.200 of the sort of pre civil rights America, you have 155 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:53.559 dozens and dozens of people saying, how how creepy it is, right, 156 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:56.279 it's so it's so weird and off put it. And 157 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:00.000 you know, I have every reason to believe a large 158 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:05.440 portion of that is performative, but there is there seems 159 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:11.559 to be a deliberate cultural push to make that associated 160 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:16.840 with like the sinister, the uncomfortable, the threatening. And I 161 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:18.879 wonder if at least part of that is the kind 162 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:25.840 of what seems now kind of over the top, I 163 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:30.360 guess lack of citizen like the genuine in nature, because 164 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.759 you even see this in like advertising in music. Right 165 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:39.399 by and large, it's not very complicated. It's very earnest 166 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:44.320 on its face, especially to modern tastes. And weirdly enough, 167 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:47.240 I was the thing that got me thinking about this 168 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:52.879 was was Rodney Dangerfield of all people, right who you know, Okay, 169 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.320 look like it's not perhaps the most sophisticated comic, but 170 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.879 it's interesting the way that he has kind of burned 171 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:03.120 in effigy as the like, oh that that horrible you know, 172 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:10.440 kind of classless, you know, corny comedian and look like, 173 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:12.720 I will admit, like my sense of humor has been 174 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:15.919 absolutely ruined by being on the Internet and you know, 175 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:17.919 being part of Generation Z. So i'll you know, I'll 176 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:21.600 admit that it's not for me. But there is something much, 177 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:27.120 very very just genuine and honest and kind of guileless 178 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:30.320 about it that I think offends modern sensibilities. You see 179 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:30.960 what I'm getting at. 180 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:36.360 D Yeah, I see what you're getting at. I mean 181 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:38.759 it's very interesting for use how you know, how we 182 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.240 how we view things. I mean, for instance, Rodney Dangerfield, 183 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:44.840 I mean he was sort of describing his comedy. 184 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:49.159 And obviously he rose to prominence in the seventies and 185 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:51.639 eighties almost as a callback act. 186 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:54.360 But sorry, mister well so, but what he was actually, 187 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:55.759 I mean you may not be aware of this, but 188 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:58.240 of course he was not born Rodney Dangerfield. He was 189 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.840 born Rodney Cohen, and he was of course Jewish. Like 190 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.960 many of that generation of comedians, he was associated with 191 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:11.440 what's called sort of cat Skills comedy. You know. So 192 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:14.200 there is an area in upstate New York called the 193 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:17.320 you know, called the Catskills, the Catskill Mountains that was 194 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.519 once famous because there were all of these resort hotels 195 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.279 in the mountains in the cats in and around the Catskills, 196 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:29.840 and they were frequented almost entirely by Jews from New 197 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:32.879 York City, you know, I mean, but the entire wave 198 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.120 of Jewish immigration that came in the nineteenth century, I mean, 199 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:39.120 all of those people who lived, who lived populated all, 200 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:41.440 you know, all the traditional areas of the sort of 201 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:44.720 Jewish ghettos, the Lower East lower East side of New York, Brooklyn. 202 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:48.320 Many of those Jews were then holiday they were in 203 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:50.840 the summer, they would go to these Catskill resorts and 204 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:54.840 you know, it was Kosher food, and it was this 205 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:59.440 very particular type of comedy, you know, which was just 206 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:03.639 profound only sort of related to kind of Yiddish theater 207 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.080 and Jewish culture. And so it's funny that you know 208 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.440 that a lot of these a lot of these comedians, 209 00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:12.799 you know, who got their start early on the stage 210 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:15.559 and you know performing on the stage, I mean broadly 211 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:19.080 dangerful you know, did stand up you know, as you know, 212 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:20.639 all through his life. And it was only in the 213 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:24.720 really in the eighties that he became a very well 214 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:28.159 known figure before appearing in you know, in those those films. 215 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.480 But you know, he had a long career, as I said, 216 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:35.080 in this other world, and a lot of American entertainment, 217 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:40.639 particularly comedy, was was profoundly was profoundly influenced and populated 218 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:44.279 by you know God. I mean, you think of mel Brooks, 219 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:49.960 you know, a genius filmmaker who's still with us, who 220 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:53.720 who also I mean again is employing that sensibility in 221 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:55.759 a lot of his works. And so a lot of 222 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:59.360 the comedians, particularly ones from that era, they end up 223 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:03.200 being you know, from this particular cultural meeuse. So it's 224 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.240 just sort of funny to hear you talk about about 225 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.799 Rodney Dangerfield in that context when in a way it's 226 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:11.960 it's not really America. You know, these were people who 227 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:18.879 were you know, certainly that generation of Jews, you know, 228 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:23.000 never they never saw themselves as part of that of 229 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:25.720 the David Lynch nineteen fifties, you know, this sort of 230 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:28.919 classic image of the nineteen fifties that, as you correctly say, 231 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:33.159 is is now only seen as a kind of ironic parody. 232 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:37.879 And weirdly enough, of course, you know, this is why 233 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.000 I think a lot of people think David Lynch's love 234 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.519 of the nineteen fifties and love of you know, this 235 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:47.480 this sort of image of post war America and of 236 00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:50.840 plenty and of you know, and of beauty and happiness 237 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:55.480 and you know, you know, all of you know, all 238 00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:58.360 of these things which now you can't talk about in 239 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.440 intellectual circles without people. You know, there's that meme that says, 240 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:04.240 no one was ever happy, no one had a good chide, 241 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:09.000 no one you know, the father was was having homosexual affairs, 242 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.200 and the mother was a drug addict, and the children 243 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.919 were you know, were axe murderers whatever. You know. It's 244 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:17.759 just like you have these simple, beautiful, wonderful images, mostly 245 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:20.039 from the world of advertising from that period, you know, 246 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.519 and and now of course we can you know, people 247 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.799 can generally only see them as false and that that's 248 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:29.840 just I'm afraid that's just a poison modern way of 249 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:33.879 viewing them. But strangely enough, I think that part of 250 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:39.960 the reason why that image of society however true or 251 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:41.639 false it would have been. I think it was both. 252 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:44.960 But but you know, part of the reason that that 253 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:50.840 became so coded as hidden darkness was because of the 254 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:56.840 influence of this generation of not just Jewish, not just comedians, 255 00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.960 but certainly filmmakers whatever I mean, you know, they tell 256 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.000 ended to always think of themselves as eternal outsiders that 257 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:07.080 were never really included in this vision. I mean, you can, 258 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:09.720 I mean Woody Allen is another great example of this, 259 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.240 you know, And you can watch some of his films 260 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:17.039 and you'll see in his famous movie Annie Hall from 261 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:21.159 nineteen seventy I can't remember what year, late nineteen seventies, 262 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.720 there's a little bit where, you know, the character Annie Hall, 263 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.480 who was played by an actress who recently passed on 264 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.519 Diane Keaton. But part of the joke of the movie 265 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:34.960 was that, you know that the Woody Allen's character was this, 266 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:38.279 you know Neber she little you know Brooklyn, New York too, 267 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.840 and Annie Hall was, you know, a wholesome white Christian 268 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.720 girl from Wisconsin, you know, and this sort of contrast 269 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:49.720 between her life and her past and his, and there's 270 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:51.919 a whole bit where he kind of compares, well, what 271 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:54.879 were what were his family dinners like compared to what 272 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.159 is her family dinner like? And you know, she said, oh, 273 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:00.360 you know, there's also a bit where she's says, oh, 274 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.519 you should have seen me then, I e back in 275 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:06.519 the late fifties, early sixties, and he said, you know, 276 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.599 and you should have seen what I look like. And 277 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:11.559 he said, well, you probably look like the wife of 278 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:15.920 an astronaut. And again that was a very particular trope 279 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:21.160 that NASA and the US Space program was entirely coded 280 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.160 as white Christian and therefore, you know, I mean, that's 281 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:27.759 why the left didn't like it. That's why, you know, 282 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.960 the kind of astronaut used to be a kind of 283 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:36.359 trope of this inaccessible, you know, sort of monolithic American 284 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:40.119 white culture to which excluded you know, the Jew or 285 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.440 the black or whatever. So a lot of these kind 286 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:46.440 of now would are just very common tropes of the 287 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:49.680 left of whatever. You know, they were all formed in 288 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:52.880 this period. But yeah, I'm sort of rambling, but there's 289 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.680 this whole stew of things happen, and strangely, David Lynch, 290 00:17:57.079 --> 00:17:59.759 you know, becomes part of that. David Lynch not Jewish, 291 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:03.519 but he did a very well known film one of 292 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.119 his more well known big studio films was called Blue Velvet, 293 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:12.160 which was made in nineteen eighty seven, and of part 294 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:16.920 of the part of the narrative of Blue Velvet is 295 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.640 the idea of that there's this kind of picture perfect 296 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:24.279 American town, you know, which, you know, which, like many 297 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:30.440 David Lynch things, exists in this strange liminal time space 298 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.640 that could be nineteen fifty six or it could be 299 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:37.759 nineteen eighty six, you know, it's both. And there's always 300 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.079 this sort of sense of temporal slip with David Lynch, 301 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:43.559 and there's always this sort of idea that you're constantly 302 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:48.519 falling into this into this sort of echo of David 303 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:51.039 Lynch's childhood of the nineteen fifties. But I think a 304 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:54.720 lot of people misread Blue Velvet as being a savage 305 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:58.880 attack on you know, white America, on the small town, 306 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:03.640 on the idea of innocence, the idea of prosperity, when 307 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:06.680 as I said, from the outset, it wasn't. I mean, 308 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:09.920 David Lynch was painfully aware, and of course many of 309 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:14.119 his works are about the kind of darkness, you know, 310 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:16.079 but for him it was not like, oh, the dark 311 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:19.240 underbelly is the true nature of America. It was that 312 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:23.319 there are forces, there is good and evil, there's darkness 313 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.599 and there's light, and they are constantly you know, as 314 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:29.920 we often talk about that we're battling We're not just 315 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.119 battling ideology. We're battling evil. It's good and evil. It's 316 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.640 always good against evil. And I think that's what's happening 317 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.880 as well. But a lot of people were unable to 318 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.279 see that, and they saw Blue Velvet as a criticism, 319 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:47.599 you know, let's unmask this false narrative of mid century 320 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:51.200 America when it wasn't. But that's how Hollywood would, of 321 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:54.319 course see it, because again a lot of Hollywood came 322 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:59.160 with this outsider narrative which which just did not allow 323 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:01.759 them to act the kind of you know, the sort 324 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:04.960 of truth of of of of the good side, of 325 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:05.960 the light side. 326 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.960 Well, and I think that that's and I say this 327 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:14.519 as someone who has seen exactly one David Lynch film, 328 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:22.759 but I would be curious if that I was going 329 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.400 to say relative moral absolutism, and I realized it's an 330 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:29.480 absolute nonsense phrase, but the sort of morality you're speaking of, 331 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:31.519 you know, where there there is this kind of you know, 332 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:37.039 sharp divide between dark and light. Is why so many 333 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.359 of our guys whatever that's constituted as are interested in 334 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:45.519 lynch because you see this in other kind of recurring 335 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.960 media figures and brands, if we can use that term, 336 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.799 that you know, people like us tend to be interested 337 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:59.920 in because it's one of those areas in the progress 338 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.960 of mind that they're a little bit uncomfortable with, right, 339 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.440 the idea of kind of you know, objective good and evil. 340 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:12.359 And who knows, maybe there's a crossover with the conversation 341 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:16.640 about you know, Anny Hall, but there's this there's this 342 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:21.960 desire to psychologize evil, right where it's like, oh, you know, 343 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:25.680 you're evil, or you did this thing because of you know, 344 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:30.160 some Freudian reason or because of some sort of psychological 345 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:34.680 problem with you. And one of the things that I noticed, 346 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:37.119 I mean, look, you could even look at at Bowden's 347 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:40.920 you know, pulp fascism, right, Why was he so interested 348 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.519 in all of these kind of pulp figures, you know 349 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:46.640 Howard and you know, the kind of Golden Age comics 350 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:49.240 and others, And you know, I think part of that 351 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:53.720 is that true kind of black and white morality, and 352 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.839 I I think that's sort of an interesting question to 353 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.440 poke at, you know, as we examine the kind of 354 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:06.200 meta narrative surrounding fiction or surrounding art. If you see 355 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:09.240 what I'm getting at, doctor Professor, mister. 356 00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:14.279 D yes, I see what you're getting at. I think, 357 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:17.000 of course, also David Lynch is a notable figure and 358 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:20.240 interesting ways. There's sort of lens through which we can 359 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:23.640 look at this because you know, he was sort of 360 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:25.559 the last of a kind. I think. I think one 361 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:27.920 of the reasons why his death last year, which I 362 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:29.519 think is part of the reason why there was this 363 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:35.119 sort of sudden revival and interest in him, you know, 364 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:37.240 was because we you know, he's sort of sort of 365 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.559 tragically had lost him. Was that, you know, that he 366 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:46.119 was the passing away of just another kind of you know, 367 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:49.759 a kind of free vector of you know, a way 368 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.160 of thinking about I mean, art, a way of thinking 369 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:57.119 about culture, way of thinking about you know, philosophy, American philosophy, 370 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.599 and all sorts of things. You know, because we you know, 371 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.799 he came out of a very strange, you know, sort 372 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:08.119 of cultural moment, and he was particularly informed, you know, 373 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:10.599 I mean, he came from the world of painting. I 374 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:12.440 don't know if if you were aware I mean, he 375 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:17.160 began his career as a as a as a as 376 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.680 a fine artist, as a painter. That's what he wanted 377 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:21.720 to be, That's what he thought he was going to be, 378 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:24.920 and of course he did remain a painter's entire life. 379 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:27.759 He produced a you know, a very large corpus of 380 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:32.240 paintings and drawings and sculpture mixed media pieces, and he 381 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:34.960 worked on them with you know. One of the reasons 382 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:38.279 why I'm so I feel so I've always felt so 383 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:40.839 close to him and felt such kinship with him, is 384 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:45.359 because he, I think, at heart always remained you know, 385 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:49.599 a painter, someone who thought about images in the way 386 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:52.480 that a kind of a kind of artist as a painter, 387 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.519 which is for people that know what is what I do. 388 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.480 So I feel always felt a deep connection to him 389 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:02.400 for that. But the problem is that we're you know, 390 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.839 we're not making people like like that so much anymore, 391 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:08.680 you know. I mean, obviously there's still many very talented 392 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.480 artists and you know, young, younger people who are getting 393 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.480 into all areas of cultural production. But you know, this 394 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:21.640 is this particular sort of brand of you know of 395 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.480 and particularly an artist who could rise to his level 396 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:32.000 of commercial success and recognition. It's just it's it's it's 397 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:35.400 a it's a kind of cultural moment that's just gone away, 398 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:40.160 and it's just it's no longer even thinkable that someone 399 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.720 like David Lynch, with his again very very particular and 400 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:50.079 deep and complex vision of morality, and you know, even 401 00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:52.559