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Speaker 1: Meaning a live man like this man letting butterfly flapping

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and wing dig down in the forest. Man, it gonna

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cause a tree fall, letting five thousand miles away.

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Speaker 2: Man, nobody see, nobody.

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Speaker 1: See. You don't need to know.

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Speaker 2: Many like you followed a little story and you got

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directed for like that. That's the way. Man, don't likely

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dag on the panel, man, Man, you don't matter.

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Speaker 1: Man No ready, mister D welcome back to the Jay

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Burden Show.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much, mister j bur and I'm

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very very happy and please always to UH to see

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your handsome visage and to UH to be back kid

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talking to you.

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Speaker 1: It's it's genuinely always a pleasure to have you on UH.

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In a previous era of streaming, you and I came

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into contact much more. But as things have changed, I've

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made a deliberate effort to UH to keep in contact

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with you because I always enjoy our conversations. You were

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speaking before we went live about your your new project

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of going over Twin Peaks and I have there's sort

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of a shameful admission, mister D that not only have

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I not seen Twin Peaks, but the only David Lynch

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film I have ever watched is Rabbits, which was very

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very odd.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's that's a bit unusual to have seen that

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and not same. I mean I've barely seen that, you know.

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I mean the Rabbits were, Yeah, the people don't know.

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The Rabbits were kind of a they were kind of

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an off shoot of David made. His final feature film

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was called Inland Empire, which was made in the mid

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two thousands, and it was shot on sort of low

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end digital video cameras. There's some very old things about it.

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I quite like that film, but yeah, the Rabbits were

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were kind of related to that, although the rabbit thing

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apparently has been around with him for a very long time.

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But the thing about Lynch is he's so there's just

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so many different projects that he's been involved in, you know,

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certainly like from you know, just big studio cinema, some

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of the things that he did in the you know,

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in the seventies and eighties obviously to you know, to

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some very small, very weird, obscure projects. But see, you

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get a pass because you're you're a zoomer and so

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you're not expected to have any cultural knowledge whatsoever. So

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you know, so you're all right.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate your four barons. If nothing else, the I'm

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sort of fascinated by Lynch. And actually I've been meaning

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to go to go through Twin Peaks because my current house,

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we have a second unit, and the couple that rents

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from us, he's a massive fan of Lynch. And you know,

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once he he heard that I hadn't seen it, he

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insisted on it, so it's on the docket. And I

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really had gone through my entire life without knowing really

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almost anything about it. And till you know, Dave Green

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did a series of sort of essays where he mentioned,

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you know, mentioned Twin Peaks and particularly this is his analysis,

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not mine. Obviously I haven't seen it, but he was

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speaking about the sense that it is, you know, that

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the town is sort of a place that has has

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already died and no one has realized it yet. And

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you know, even just that that simple meme, that simple

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idea was very sort of powerful and profound, because mister

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d I know you're you're a fan of Americana, and

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I am too in a way because I've never lived

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in an era where Americana was alive, where it was real,

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where it was something that existed on its own right.

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It's always been the kind of you know, slightly run

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down gas station off the main road and not to

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get to Maudeline, you know what, three minutes in. But

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it has been something I've I've been thinking about quite

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a bit, you know, as we kind of watch this

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administration flounder and try and pull in a lot of

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this kind of classic Americana, classic symbols of the nation

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very ineptly, you know, after they already seem to have

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have died and sort of lost their power. Am I

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entirely pulling it?

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Speaker 2: Straws there, mister d No, I certainly see what you're getting.

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I would say that that a very useful way to

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approach David Lynch is certainly actually in a way to

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contrast him with particularly Paul Titians, you know who, you

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who certainly use quote Americana in an almost entirely cynical way,

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you know, I mean generally when it is invoked. I

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mean Democrats now sort of try to do it. I mean,

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I remember Obama used to try to do it as well,

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you know, but usually when politicians do it, it's done cynically,

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It's done in a way to manipulate you for one

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reason or the other. With David Lynch, it's very important

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and I think a lot of people get this wrong

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about David Lynch. Is that I mean, if you're aware

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of him as a person, you know, if you watch

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interviews with him, certainly, but also just going through his work,

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is you must understand that he is never cynical about America,

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like his strange what a lot of certainly younger people

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read as you know, kind of slightly campy or you know,

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or ironic. It's not ironic at all, like he you

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know that whole you know, cherry pie and coffee, and

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you know, white picket fences and fire trucks and you know,

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and quirky characters. I mean, he genuinely loved and embrace that.

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I mean, that's what he was like, you know, and

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it's just so powerful and so strong, and he expressed

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it in such a strange way that I think a

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lot of people take take his sort of embrace of this,

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this sort of particularly mid century, you know, nineteen fifties

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era fascination as being as being again cynical or ironic,

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and it's not, you know, And certainly to contrast that

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with the way that's you. You know that the way

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those tropes are used by by politicians, by other people,

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it's it's just just absolutely opposite. And I think it

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helps people to understand David Lynche much better, just just

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to realize whatever you're watching. And of course there's all

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kinds of seediness and subversion and dark, terrible things and

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visions that he showed, you know, that he that he

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brings to light, but that the underlying sort of fascination

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with the character of America is absolutely pure, you know,

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and lovely, and he loved it, you know, there was

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not a drop of irony about it. So and I

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encourage you to watch some some sort of interviews with

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him because you know, he he of course had a

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very distinct way of speaking, you know, oh, well, very

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happy to see you today. Now we're going to look

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at at you know bugs, buddy. Yeah, I mean he

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that was not an act like that's really how he was.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I sort of it kind of fell in

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love with the figure because the figure of David Lynch,

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because I don't know if you remember, during the pandemic

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and briefly afterwards, he had a YouTube channel where he

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just read the weather and At first, I was sort

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of anticipating the other shoe to drop right there, to

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be some sort of reveal, some sort of bit right

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where we were all at on the joke. But no,

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he was just reading the weather and he.

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Speaker 2: Was doing it a fit months on end. Yes, yeah, And.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why. I just found it incredibly amusic,

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like almost like the entire time, just the fact that,

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you know, everyone was sort of analyzing He's looking for

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some great hidden message and there simply wasn't one. It's interesting,

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the sort of lack of the lack of cynicism because

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in the same way that there is a hontology of

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Adeolf Hitler in the case, you know, Irving made the

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point that you know, there are two Hitlers. I write

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about the real man, you know, not the sort of

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Hollywood version. There's an equal sort of hontology of the

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nineteen fifties in a like the the American psyche. Because

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if you one of the things you've become aware of,

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if you're like genuinely interested in like the academic left,

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is that they haven't really had a new idea since

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roughly nineteen ninety four, and even that new idea is

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kind of just an idea that someone had, you know,

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thirty years prior. And this is a point that your

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former co host made right that almost you know, by

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and large, the entire academy exists to deconstruct and attack

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the kind of you know, rosy version of Pat Buchanan's childhood. Right,

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and every time you see some you know, historical photo

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of the sort of pre civil rights America, you have

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dozens and dozens of people saying, how how creepy it is, right,

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it's so it's so weird and off put it. And

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you know, I have every reason to believe a large

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portion of that is performative, but there is there seems

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to be a deliberate cultural push to make that associated

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with like the sinister, the uncomfortable, the threatening. And I

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wonder if at least part of that is the kind

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of what seems now kind of over the top, I

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guess lack of citizen like the genuine in nature, because

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you even see this in like advertising in music. Right

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by and large, it's not very complicated. It's very earnest

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on its face, especially to modern tastes. And weirdly enough,

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I was the thing that got me thinking about this

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was was Rodney Dangerfield of all people, right who you know, Okay,

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look like it's not perhaps the most sophisticated comic, but

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it's interesting the way that he has kind of burned

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in effigy as the like, oh that that horrible you know,

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kind of classless, you know, corny comedian and look like,

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I will admit, like my sense of humor has been

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absolutely ruined by being on the Internet and you know,

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being part of Generation Z. So i'll you know, I'll

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admit that it's not for me. But there is something much,

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very very just genuine and honest and kind of guileless

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about it that I think offends modern sensibilities. You see

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what I'm getting at.

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Speaker 2: D Yeah, I see what you're getting at. I mean

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it's very interesting for use how you know, how we

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how we view things. I mean, for instance, Rodney Dangerfield,

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I mean he was sort of describing his comedy.

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Speaker 1: And obviously he rose to prominence in the seventies and

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eighties almost as a callback act.

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Speaker 2: But sorry, mister well so, but what he was actually,

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I mean you may not be aware of this, but

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of course he was not born Rodney Dangerfield. He was

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born Rodney Cohen, and he was of course Jewish. Like

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many of that generation of comedians, he was associated with

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what's called sort of cat Skills comedy. You know. So

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there is an area in upstate New York called the

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you know, called the Catskills, the Catskill Mountains that was

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once famous because there were all of these resort hotels

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in the mountains in the cats in and around the Catskills,

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and they were frequented almost entirely by Jews from New

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York City, you know, I mean, but the entire wave

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of Jewish immigration that came in the nineteenth century, I mean,

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all of those people who lived, who lived populated all,

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you know, all the traditional areas of the sort of

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Jewish ghettos, the Lower East lower East side of New York, Brooklyn.

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Many of those Jews were then holiday they were in

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the summer, they would go to these Catskill resorts and

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you know, it was Kosher food, and it was this

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very particular type of comedy, you know, which was just

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profound only sort of related to kind of Yiddish theater

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and Jewish culture. And so it's funny that you know

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that a lot of these a lot of these comedians,

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you know, who got their start early on the stage

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and you know performing on the stage, I mean broadly

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dangerful you know, did stand up you know, as you know,

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all through his life. And it was only in the

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really in the eighties that he became a very well

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known figure before appearing in you know, in those those films.

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But you know, he had a long career, as I said,

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in this other world, and a lot of American entertainment,

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particularly comedy, was was profoundly was profoundly influenced and populated

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by you know God. I mean, you think of mel Brooks,

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you know, a genius filmmaker who's still with us, who

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who also I mean again is employing that sensibility in

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a lot of his works. And so a lot of

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the comedians, particularly ones from that era, they end up

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being you know, from this particular cultural meeuse. So it's

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just sort of funny to hear you talk about about

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Rodney Dangerfield in that context when in a way it's

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it's not really America. You know, these were people who

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were you know, certainly that generation of Jews, you know,

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never they never saw themselves as part of that of

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the David Lynch nineteen fifties, you know, this sort of

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classic image of the nineteen fifties that, as you correctly say,

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is is now only seen as a kind of ironic parody.

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And weirdly enough, of course, you know, this is why

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I think a lot of people think David Lynch's love

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of the nineteen fifties and love of you know, this

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this sort of image of post war America and of

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plenty and of you know, and of beauty and happiness

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and you know, you know, all of you know, all

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of these things which now you can't talk about in

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intellectual circles without people. You know, there's that meme that says,

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no one was ever happy, no one had a good chide,

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no one you know, the father was was having homosexual affairs,

242
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and the mother was a drug addict, and the children

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were you know, were axe murderers whatever. You know. It's

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just like you have these simple, beautiful, wonderful images, mostly

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from the world of advertising from that period, you know,

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and and now of course we can you know, people

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can generally only see them as false and that that's

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just I'm afraid that's just a poison modern way of

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viewing them. But strangely enough, I think that part of

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the reason why that image of society however true or

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false it would have been. I think it was both.

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But but you know, part of the reason that that

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became so coded as hidden darkness was because of the

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influence of this generation of not just Jewish, not just comedians,

255
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but certainly filmmakers whatever I mean, you know, they tell

256
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ended to always think of themselves as eternal outsiders that

257
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were never really included in this vision. I mean, you can,

258
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I mean Woody Allen is another great example of this,

259
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you know, And you can watch some of his films

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and you'll see in his famous movie Annie Hall from

261
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nineteen seventy I can't remember what year, late nineteen seventies,

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there's a little bit where, you know, the character Annie Hall,

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who was played by an actress who recently passed on

264
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Diane Keaton. But part of the joke of the movie

265
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was that, you know that the Woody Allen's character was this,

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you know Neber she little you know Brooklyn, New York too,

267
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and Annie Hall was, you know, a wholesome white Christian

268
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girl from Wisconsin, you know, and this sort of contrast

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between her life and her past and his, and there's

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a whole bit where he kind of compares, well, what

271
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were what were his family dinners like compared to what

272
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is her family dinner like? And you know, she said, oh,

273
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you know, there's also a bit where she's says, oh,

274
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you should have seen me then, I e back in

275
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the late fifties, early sixties, and he said, you know,

276
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and you should have seen what I look like. And

277
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he said, well, you probably look like the wife of

278
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an astronaut. And again that was a very particular trope

279
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that NASA and the US Space program was entirely coded

280
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as white Christian and therefore, you know, I mean, that's

281
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why the left didn't like it. That's why, you know,

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the kind of astronaut used to be a kind of

283
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trope of this inaccessible, you know, sort of monolithic American

284
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white culture to which excluded you know, the Jew or

285
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the black or whatever. So a lot of these kind

286
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of now would are just very common tropes of the

287
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left of whatever. You know, they were all formed in

288
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this period. But yeah, I'm sort of rambling, but there's

289
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this whole stew of things happen, and strangely, David Lynch,

290
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you know, becomes part of that. David Lynch not Jewish,

291
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but he did a very well known film one of

292
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his more well known big studio films was called Blue Velvet,

293
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which was made in nineteen eighty seven, and of part

294
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of the part of the narrative of Blue Velvet is

295
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the idea of that there's this kind of picture perfect

296
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American town, you know, which, you know, which, like many

297
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David Lynch things, exists in this strange liminal time space

298
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that could be nineteen fifty six or it could be

299
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nineteen eighty six, you know, it's both. And there's always

300
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this sort of sense of temporal slip with David Lynch,

301
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and there's always this sort of idea that you're constantly

302
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falling into this into this sort of echo of David

303
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Lynch's childhood of the nineteen fifties. But I think a

304
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lot of people misread Blue Velvet as being a savage

305
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attack on you know, white America, on the small town,

306
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on the idea of innocence, the idea of prosperity, when

307
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as I said, from the outset, it wasn't. I mean,

308
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David Lynch was painfully aware, and of course many of

309
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his works are about the kind of darkness, you know,

310
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but for him it was not like, oh, the dark

311
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,240
underbelly is the true nature of America. It was that

312
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there are forces, there is good and evil, there's darkness

313
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and there's light, and they are constantly you know, as

314
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we often talk about that we're battling We're not just

315
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battling ideology. We're battling evil. It's good and evil. It's

316
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always good against evil. And I think that's what's happening

317
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,880
as well. But a lot of people were unable to

318
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see that, and they saw Blue Velvet as a criticism,

319
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,599
you know, let's unmask this false narrative of mid century

320
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America when it wasn't. But that's how Hollywood would, of

321
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,319
course see it, because again a lot of Hollywood came

322
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:59,160
with this outsider narrative which which just did not allow

323
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them to act the kind of you know, the sort

324
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of truth of of of of the good side, of

325
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the light side.

326
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Speaker 1: Well, and I think that that's and I say this

327
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as someone who has seen exactly one David Lynch film,

328
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:22,759
but I would be curious if that I was going

329
00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:25,400
to say relative moral absolutism, and I realized it's an

330
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,480
absolute nonsense phrase, but the sort of morality you're speaking of,

331
00:20:29,839 --> 00:20:31,519
you know, where there there is this kind of you know,

332
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sharp divide between dark and light. Is why so many

333
00:20:37,079 --> 00:20:40,359
of our guys whatever that's constituted as are interested in

334
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:45,519
lynch because you see this in other kind of recurring

335
00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:48,960
media figures and brands, if we can use that term,

336
00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:52,799
that you know, people like us tend to be interested

337
00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:59,920
in because it's one of those areas in the progress

338
00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:02,960
of mind that they're a little bit uncomfortable with, right,

339
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,440
the idea of kind of you know, objective good and evil.

340
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And who knows, maybe there's a crossover with the conversation

341
00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:16,640
about you know, Anny Hall, but there's this there's this

342
00:21:16,759 --> 00:21:21,960
desire to psychologize evil, right where it's like, oh, you know,

343
00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:25,680
you're evil, or you did this thing because of you know,

344
00:21:25,839 --> 00:21:30,160
some Freudian reason or because of some sort of psychological

345
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problem with you. And one of the things that I noticed,

346
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I mean, look, you could even look at at Bowden's

347
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,920
you know, pulp fascism, right, Why was he so interested

348
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,519
in all of these kind of pulp figures, you know

349
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Howard and you know, the kind of Golden Age comics

350
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and others, And you know, I think part of that

351
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is that true kind of black and white morality, and

352
00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:56,839
I I think that's sort of an interesting question to

353
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,440
poke at, you know, as we examine the kind of

354
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:06,200
meta narrative surrounding fiction or surrounding art. If you see

355
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,240
what I'm getting at, doctor Professor, mister.

356
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Speaker 2: D yes, I see what you're getting at. I think,

357
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of course, also David Lynch is a notable figure and

358
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,240
interesting ways. There's sort of lens through which we can

359
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,640
look at this because you know, he was sort of

360
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the last of a kind. I think. I think one

361
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of the reasons why his death last year, which I

362
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think is part of the reason why there was this

363
00:22:29,599 --> 00:22:35,119
sort of sudden revival and interest in him, you know,

364
00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:37,240
was because we you know, he's sort of sort of

365
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,559
tragically had lost him. Was that, you know, that he

366
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:46,119
was the passing away of just another kind of you know,

367
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a kind of free vector of you know, a way

368
00:22:49,799 --> 00:22:52,160
of thinking about I mean, art, a way of thinking

369
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:57,119
about culture, way of thinking about you know, philosophy, American philosophy,

370
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,599
and all sorts of things. You know, because we you know,

371
00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:03,799
he came out of a very strange, you know, sort

372
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of cultural moment, and he was particularly informed, you know,

373
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I mean, he came from the world of painting. I

374
00:23:10,599 --> 00:23:12,440
don't know if if you were aware I mean, he

375
00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:17,160
began his career as a as a as a as

376
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,680
a fine artist, as a painter. That's what he wanted

377
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,720
to be, That's what he thought he was going to be,

378
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,920
and of course he did remain a painter's entire life.

379
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,759
He produced a you know, a very large corpus of

380
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:32,240
paintings and drawings and sculpture mixed media pieces, and he

381
00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:34,960
worked on them with you know. One of the reasons

382
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,279
why I'm so I feel so I've always felt so

383
00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:40,839
close to him and felt such kinship with him, is

384
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,359
because he, I think, at heart always remained you know,

385
00:23:46,759 --> 00:23:49,599
a painter, someone who thought about images in the way

386
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,480
that a kind of a kind of artist as a painter,

387
00:23:52,759 --> 00:23:55,519
which is for people that know what is what I do.

388
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,480
So I feel always felt a deep connection to him

389
00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:02,400
for that. But the problem is that we're you know,

390
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,839
we're not making people like like that so much anymore,

391
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,680
you know. I mean, obviously there's still many very talented

392
00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:11,480
artists and you know, young, younger people who are getting

393
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,480
into all areas of cultural production. But you know, this

394
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,640
is this particular sort of brand of you know of

395
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,480
and particularly an artist who could rise to his level

396
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:32,000
of commercial success and recognition. It's just it's it's it's

397
00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:35,400
a it's a kind of cultural moment that's just gone away,

398
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,160
and it's just it's no longer even thinkable that someone

399
00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:44,720
like David Lynch, with his again very very particular and

400
00:24:44,759 --> 00:24:50,079
deep and complex vision of morality, and you know, even

401
00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:52,559
you know, just even his aesthetic sense, I mean, his

402
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,119
sense of composition, his sense of color. You know, it's

403
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,440
just unthinkable that someone like that would be able to

404
00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:02,519
navigate their way into you know, sort of large cultural

405
00:25:02,559 --> 00:25:04,799
recognition because because in a way, we don't even have

406
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,200
a we don't there is no culture anymore, There is

407
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,720
no monoculture anymore, as it was called, you know, and

408
00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:13,400
I think that there are good things to that, but

409
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,359
there's also a lot of negative qualities to that, because

410
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,680
it is one of those things that holds a society together,

411
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,559
that holds of people together. You know, David Lynch was

412
00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:28,559
not really making I mean, David Lynch just was making

413
00:25:28,599 --> 00:25:32,200
work to satisfy himself, but he wasn't making work for

414
00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:37,200
this sort of one small, kind of very separate, very

415
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,960
defined online niche community, you know, which is how we

416
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,160
tend to view each other and how we tend to

417
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,240
view everything now, you know. And of course if you

418
00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:50,759
look at what's left of the wider world of monoculture,

419
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,319
like if you look at the sort of quote big

420
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,920
music acts, I mean it's you know, or films. You

421
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,880
know that. I mean almost no one makes sexual films anymore.

422
00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:06,759
You know. It's just frankly embarrassing, you know. And and

423
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,279
it's and to me, it's just absolutely tragic because you know,

424
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,400
in losing this this this character, this kind of creator,

425
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,599
and and the and the culture that spawn spawn him,

426
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,319
you know, I think it's just an ill portend for

427
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,799
things to come, I think for me, you know, and

428
00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:28,480
this is something that comes up all the time, you know,

429
00:26:28,519 --> 00:26:30,759
every I don't know month, every month or so. There's

430
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:37,599
a big online right argument about culture. Ooh, what's culture?

431
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,920
Oh you know, it's publishing something by Curtis Yarvin at

432
00:26:43,079 --> 00:26:47,480
Passage Press. Well that's you know, or you know, look,

433
00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:50,839
isn't art deco cool? We need more art deco?

434
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: You know.

435
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 2: That's the extent pretty much of the kind of cultural

436
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,599
discussion on the right. And it's it's just sad. I mean,

437
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,319
that's not that's not really what we're talking about. I mean,

438
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,599
for me, I honestly think you know that we tend

439
00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:10,079
to think of problems, you know, in political problems as oh, okay,

440
00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:11,880
we need to fix them. What are the what are

441
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,079
the mechanics, how do we fix this? You know? But

442
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,440
what really needs fixed, the thing that you know is

443
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,359
really upstream of all of these other problems, is this

444
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:30,920
sort of degradation and disintegration of cultural and national and

445
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:35,759
racial sort of unity and understanding. I think so, I

446
00:27:35,759 --> 00:27:38,400
do think it's important, but I think that again, the

447
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,400
way we well, we need to fix culture, we just

448
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,319
have this strange mechanical idea of how that works, and

449
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,720
it doesn't. You know, it's a it's a synergistic thing

450
00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:52,920
with the health of a civilization, and a civilization is

451
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,359
sick and unhealthy, then it's going to be nearly impossible

452
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:01,640
for kind of the sort of true of truth and

453
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:07,920
beauty productions of culture to even manifest themselves. So it's

454
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,039
a it's a problem again. Sorry for this is a

455
00:28:12,079 --> 00:28:14,640
topic that invites me to wander into the weeds.

456
00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: So oh, look look what I gave you. No plan

457
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,480
other than we're recording on Thursday.

458
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't know that's good. I like it, Yeah,

459
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,160
I like it. Well, this reminds me. You know, there's

460
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:36,839
an there's an interview with Lynch where the interviewer says, well,

461
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,319
they're talking about erase Ahead, which was David Lynch's first

462
00:28:40,319 --> 00:28:45,640
feature film, and probably not the well we can talk

463
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,359
about that at the moment trying I was trying to

464
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:50,039
think of where the best place to start if you're

465
00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:52,440
interested in David Lynch but have never seen his works.

466
00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:55,279
Eraserhead may not be the best place to start, but

467
00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:57,720
it also may be the perfect place to start. Anyway,

468
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,319
his first feature film was called Eraserhead, and it's a

469
00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:04,519
fascinating story about how that was made and the circumstances

470
00:29:04,559 --> 00:29:06,880
of how David Lynch became a kind of film you know,

471
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,240
a kind of Hollywood filmmaker. But he was being asked

472
00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:12,319
about it, and he was talking about it and he said,

473
00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:16,960
you know, a rasorhead is my is my most spiritual film.

474
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,839
And then the interviewer said, well, can you explain that?

475
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:25,160
And David Lynch said no, and that was it, And

476
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:28,240
that's the way to do it. That is how how

477
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,960
you work. You know, whether we're in the weeds or not.

478
00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:33,440
I mean, you know, we have to learn also, you know,

479
00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:38,440
people who consider themselves intellectual types. You know, you've got

480
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,279
to learn that things don't always proceed in a you know,

481
00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:46,240
in a linear fashion. You know, sometimes you have to

482
00:29:46,279 --> 00:29:49,200
wonder into into dreams, you have to wander into the weeds,

483
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,599
you have to wander into the into the dark woods,

484
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,400
you know, where the straight way is lost, as Dante

485
00:29:55,559 --> 00:29:59,160
so eloquently put it, to find truth, you know, I mean,

486
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,279
part of speaking Dante. You know, this is something we

487
00:30:02,319 --> 00:30:04,799
all know that that you know, the hero's journey, but

488
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:10,039
also the idea of a man descending into darkness, descending

489
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:15,799
into hell, and then coming back with his perceptions change,

490
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,039
you know, you know, and that is something that you

491
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:24,599
you know, almost every David Lynch film you know, deals

492
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,039
with this, I mean, and in a larger way, so

493
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,119
many things that we you know, the great works of

494
00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:33,039
our civilization also do the same thing. You know. It

495
00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:37,880
is a person or a situation that is plunged into

496
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,799
darkness that you know, that goes from you know, Blue

497
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,200
Velvet is a great example. You know, it's a character,

498
00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:48,599
you know, a kind of naive, you know, a character

499
00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:52,359
who's living in this sort of ostensibly beautiful, perfect small

500
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,440
town who descends into this river of darkness which was

501
00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:00,160
always there and again evil is always with us on

502
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,480
earth and so and you know, the character was unaware

503
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,200
of it, you know. And this is this is so

504
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,039
many David Lynch films like this is. This is almost

505
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,680
entirely what Twin Peaks is about.

506
00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: You know.

507
00:31:12,319 --> 00:31:17,079
Speaker 2: It is these various characters who who live in this

508
00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:20,880
surface of beauty and then discover, of course that there

509
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:26,119
is always this dark well spring and they descend into it.

510
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:32,000
And sometimes they come back. They come back changed, often wiser,

511
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,680
battle hardened. Sometimes they don't come back. You know. Again,

512
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:41,880
sometimes when you face evil, sadly you lose, you know,

513
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:45,400
you don't survive that encounter. So this is I think

514
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,400
they're just the key, you know, the key sort of

515
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,640
broad idea that flows through all David Lynch's work and

516
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,039
throw it blows through so much of great literature and art.

517
00:31:56,279 --> 00:32:00,240
So you know again you will you you you know,

518
00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:03,039
it's it's easy to get lost in the quirky, you

519
00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:08,279
know details, but you know we're dealing with very conventional,

520
00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:13,960
sort of very conventional sort of literary journeys.

521
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that that descent, right, the Nikia, the

522
00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:25,759
descent to the underworld is a trope throughout Western literature.

523
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,680
I was actually just speaking to my wife about this.

524
00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:36,559
One of the interesting things in Anna Karnina is that

525
00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:42,559
Tolstoy sort of he plays with this right because and

526
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,920
obviously broader context, right, there's this sort of inverse relationship

527
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,559
between Anna Krenaa and oh shoot, I cannot remember the

528
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:55,240
other man's name, who'd sort of go on alternate arcs

529
00:32:55,519 --> 00:33:00,000
right on this kind of core the question of chastity

530
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:04,759
in constraint, which is very funny because there's a movie

531
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,240
made of Ana Krenaa that's absolutely awful. It's actually almost

532
00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:12,039
awful enough to be interesting from maybe ten or fifteen

533
00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:16,759
years ago. But clearly the modern progresses are very uncomfortable

534
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,079
with the actual thrust of that. But the reason I

535
00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:25,119
bring it up is because she has this this affair,

536
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,039
and while going through labor to produce this bastard son,

537
00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:34,519
she nearly dies, right she's she's sick, she's at Death's store.

538
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,680
And what's interesting is that you're sort of led to

539
00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:42,079
expect that this is that Nikea that descent, right, that

540
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,079
she will have her eyes opened. And what Tolstoi does

541
00:33:46,279 --> 00:33:50,000
is that her husband, who rightfully hates her, for this,

542
00:33:51,119 --> 00:33:54,759
the narrative sort of switches where we find out it

543
00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:58,240
is not her descent. She, once she's healed, is unchanged

544
00:33:58,319 --> 00:34:02,799
completely and totally unrepentant. He is, in fact the one

545
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,799
who is transformed.

546
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:05,039
Speaker 2: Right.

547
00:34:05,079 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: He becomes incredibly religiously devout. He decides to you know,

548
00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:10,679
raise the sun as his own, despite to sort of

549
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:14,159
protect him from his you know, his estranged wife. And

550
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,480
it's such an interesting moment in so many in so

551
00:34:19,559 --> 00:34:24,599
many narratives, right, like even but effectively, right, we see

552
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,480
on one hand, a subversion of that trope, right that

553
00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:32,239
sort of you know, descent to rebirth, which of course

554
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,360
obviously you see in the narrative of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.

555
00:34:36,559 --> 00:34:41,400
Right that, Like deeply it's kind of like deep structure

556
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,800
bearing myth in the West. And it's sort of one

557
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,559
of those I, as you could say, one of those

558
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:53,519
memes that I'm deeply fascinated by, because you know, once

559
00:34:53,559 --> 00:34:56,199
you've seen it, once you begin to pick it out.

560
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,840
And I particularly found Tolstoy fascinating to you both subvert

561
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:10,320
and reinforce in the same work. But I'm sorry, I

562
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,960
slightly lost my train of thought. I'll edit that out

563
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:18,800
as well. So, mister d one of the things that

564
00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:21,880
I wanted to bring up in response to kind of

565
00:35:21,679 --> 00:35:27,639
your last comment was about you mentioned the kind of

566
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,800
death of monoculture, and this is something I think about

567
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,400
quite a lot. I had a conversation with a woman

568
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:40,679
in her late fifties, very intelligent, she's a literary scholar,

569
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,480
and she asked me a very basic question older people

570
00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:49,079
often ask younger people, which is, what are people your

571
00:35:49,159 --> 00:35:51,480
rage into? You know, what music do they listen to?

572
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,679
And you know, earlier, of course, you were making fun

573
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,360
of me for having no cultural context whatsoever, which is

574
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:04,719
quite apt because as that monoculture is completely and totally splintered,

575
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,400
that actually becomes a very difficult question to answer, because

576
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,320
there isn't a sort of you know, twenty twenty four

577
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,119
equivalent to like, I don't know, like the monkeys or

578
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,239
you know, pick your kind of top forty trash of

579
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,079
whatever year you want, right, Like, sure, yeah, the chop

580
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:25,039
charts still exist. But one of the interesting things, and

581
00:36:25,079 --> 00:36:27,320
I think one of the reasons why there's so much

582
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,960
outcry as we see these figures like you know, Lynch,

583
00:36:32,119 --> 00:36:34,280
but even other kind of less serious people like you

584
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,079
know Assie dying or you know, Carrie Fisher dying. Is

585
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:46,119
that more and more people are not indexing with new culture, right, Like,

586
00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:50,239
if you look into the data on both streaming for

587
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,440
movies and streaming for you know, music, the share occupied

588
00:36:55,559 --> 00:37:01,599
by new music is getting smaller and smaller with each year,

589
00:37:02,039 --> 00:37:06,360
right that, you know, because that centralized node that was

590
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,000
you know, the radio or the theater system, right actually

591
00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:12,599
going to see a movie has kind of broken. It

592
00:37:12,679 --> 00:37:16,079
is also seemingly broken a lot of people out of

593
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,760
any sort of new culture. And so you know, you

594
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,280
have people who are listening to effectively the same songs

595
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,400
that their parents were, you know, they're listening to the

596
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,639
top forty of nineteen seventy six fifty years later. And

597
00:37:32,679 --> 00:37:35,360
I think that's sort of an interesting thing because you know,

598
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,559
you look at these sort of celebrity deaths, and I

599
00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:41,639
think one of the things that's notable about it is

600
00:37:41,679 --> 00:37:46,079
that not only have so many of these figures been

601
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:51,599
famous for a lifetime, right, incredibly long career, but also

602
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,239
with each one there seems the feeling of there is

603
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,320
no one to replace them, right, There's no one really

604
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,000
waiting in the wings. And I noticed this as well

605
00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:05,559
with kind of the death of the leading man, right,

606
00:38:05,679 --> 00:38:09,320
the the kind of you know, the kind of a

607
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,599
list Hollywood actor. And sure there are still famous people around,

608
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,880
but that that institution, if we can call it, that

609
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,119
has changed, and I think it is very much a

610
00:38:18,159 --> 00:38:22,719
symptom of that death of monoculture, which certainly has problems

611
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,000
to it. But I mean, to be perfectly honest, like

612
00:38:27,039 --> 00:38:31,800
if you look at this, the country genuinely doesn't have

613
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,639
a singular culture anymore. I mean, like just look at

614
00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:38,760
the number of you know, language languages spoken, you know,

615
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,639
the the large amount of people who were not born here.

616
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,480
Setting aside kind of any political consideration, there really is

617
00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:47,639
no common culture.

618
00:38:50,519 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: No, I mean, it's the tower. It's it's the Tower

619
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,079
of Babel, you know, obviously, I mean, and it's sort

620
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:57,079
of you know, if they're if there were cinemas and

621
00:38:57,119 --> 00:38:58,599
in the Tower of Babel, I mean, how are they

622
00:38:58,639 --> 00:39:00,239
how would they handle that? You know, they'd have to

623
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,559
have a screen for each one of the languages and

624
00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:05,119
each one of the kind of quick cultures represented. Now

625
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:07,360
when I use the word monoco culture and all that,

626
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,239
and when we talk about this, I mean, obviously that's

627
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,159
simplification because there were always, you know, all sorts of

628
00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:17,079
pockets of different things. In fact, it was weirdly enough

629
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,079
that there was probably more diversity in so called culture

630
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,880
in previous eras, you know, because of course there was

631
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,000
also a very local sort of culture. It depended on

632
00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:31,119
where you lived, you know, just as if there used

633
00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:36,159
to be America and Britain, both of them notably, used

634
00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:40,920
to be a home of hundreds of regional accents, you know,

635
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,599
I mean you could tell in some cases where where

636
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,559
you know, where people were from. I mean, in the

637
00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:50,199
case of England, you know, the accent would very village

638
00:39:50,199 --> 00:39:52,480
by village. You could you could walk half a mile

639
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:55,000
to the next village and there would be a very

640
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,360
subtle but very distinct change in the way that the

641
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:03,079
dialectical and you know, even pronunciation of aspects of the language.

642
00:40:03,519 --> 00:40:06,039
And of course that's been flattened and raised. And the

643
00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:09,400
same thing in America, you know, I mean, even with

644
00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:12,320
these things that we think, you know, we're lamenting, you know,

645
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,519
the passing away of kind of Hollywood. But it was

646
00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:18,880
also Hollywood which dissolved a lot of this, you know,

647
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,199
cultural diversity in the good sense of the word diversity.

648
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,199
It's hard to use that word now without the negative connotations.

649
00:40:26,199 --> 00:40:29,679
But you know, I mean, Hollywood erased almost every accent

650
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,360
in America, and now everyone in America, you know, with

651
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:36,559
some variations, still speaks. You know, you speak this sort

652
00:40:36,559 --> 00:40:40,840
of received pronunciation that comes from California. Whereas you know,

653
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:45,800
you even you watch old films, you hear the precious

654
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,920
moments when you hear, like quote, actual people in old

655
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,119
newsreels and things talking, you know you will hear you

656
00:40:52,159 --> 00:40:55,760
know this, this this great sort of collection of cultures.

657
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,519
So I use Monoco culture, you know, just as a

658
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:02,320
kind of concept. But there's never really been such a thing.

659
00:41:02,599 --> 00:41:06,960
I mean, there was a sort of cultural main cultural

660
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,599
force that went through things. And and you know, of

661
00:41:10,639 --> 00:41:13,280
course I don't know, I don't I don't know with

662
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,679
the passing away of this, I don't know anything else.

663
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,440
It's how I understand the world, and you know, I

664
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,000
don't know what's going to replace it. And now it's

665
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,519
important to remember that even the things that we're lamenting

666
00:41:26,599 --> 00:41:30,559
as sort of the loss of tradition, they're not really

667
00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:33,000
that old. I mean, you know, this, this whole idea

668
00:41:33,079 --> 00:41:36,239
that we have of kind of mass culture is is

669
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,320
entirely a phenomenon of modernity, you know, I mean it's

670
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,639
something that was enabled by mass communication. It was enabled

671
00:41:43,639 --> 00:41:47,079
by you know, the things that we understand that you know,

672
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,079
the twentieth century. In the nineteenth century, you know, prior

673
00:41:50,119 --> 00:41:53,440
to that, you know, culture was the kind of taste

674
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,280
and vicissitudes of a very small layer of people at

675
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:02,480
the very top of societal hierarchies. You know, what was

676
00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:06,199
in style was the province of you know, ladies at

677
00:42:06,199 --> 00:42:08,760
the court, you know, or you know, the whims of

678
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,280
the monarch who who you know, who gave their imprimatura

679
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,559
to various playwrights or whatever.

680
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: You know.

681
00:42:16,039 --> 00:42:18,639
Speaker 2: But so even what we think of is sort of

682
00:42:18,679 --> 00:42:22,039
this this great loss is something that's not not terribly old,

683
00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:24,280
but I just think it was so it produced so

684
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:31,639
much sort of very powerful artwork, and you know, and

685
00:42:31,679 --> 00:42:34,960
sort of I hate the word cultural products. It sounds

686
00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:38,960
like some sort of cheese. But you know, but but yes,

687
00:42:39,039 --> 00:42:41,159
I mean, you know, its responsible for all these things.

688
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,079
And you know, I mean, could you could call me,

689
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,840
you know, but you mentioned you know, the seventies, you know,

690
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,679
the top forty of the seventies. Well I can say

691
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,719
unequivo equivocally even the you know, and there was a

692
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:59,039
lot of shit, a lot of terrible things, but one

693
00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:04,880
hundred percent there was more talent and skill and thoughtfulness

694
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:10,159
represented in just scooping up an average of nineteen seventies

695
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:16,159
culture than there is scooping up twenty twenty six culture.

696
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,159
Whatever that even means. You know, not to say that

697
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,960
everything in the past was good and things are bad.

698
00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:26,719
There's wonderful things being produced now, but you know, they're

699
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,519
not rewarded in the way that I mean. This is

700
00:43:29,559 --> 00:43:33,199
part of that perennial argument that bubbles up in the

701
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,519
right wing sphere online. You know, part of the problem

702
00:43:36,639 --> 00:43:41,519
is to have this to have to have the incentive

703
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,719
for talented people to give their time and effort and

704
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:51,639
inspiration to the world in the form of art. There

705
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:53,960
needs to be an incentive structure for it. And you know,

706
00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:58,440
however bad Hollywood was, or however bad the recording industry was,

707
00:43:58,599 --> 00:44:05,000
or you know, or the West End in theater or Broadway,

708
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,800
however however bad and blinkered and awful those systems were,

709
00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:15,320
they were still vectors of patronage for artists of all sorts,

710
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,679
you know, and it was a sort of you know,

711
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,400
you know, it provided the support needed you know, to

712
00:44:24,679 --> 00:44:27,239
do this stuff. I mean, there are other ways of

713
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,239
producing things. Now. Of course, you can have micro funding,

714
00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:33,360
as we all do. You can have your sponsors and

715
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,519
your patreons Patreon, and you can have vessel that buy

716
00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:40,119
me a coffee. You know, all of these little ways

717
00:44:40,159 --> 00:44:42,239
that your kind of micro audience can help you. But

718
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,719
you know, in order for like big things, in order

719
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,440
for like David Lynch's vision to go from you know,

720
00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:53,000
his early kind of independent art films to making you know,

721
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,719
the Elephant Man or Erase Ahead, or you know, I mean,

722
00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:00,440
I mean these other things. Is it. You know, you

723
00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:04,639
need patronage, you need support, and you know, in order

724
00:45:04,679 --> 00:45:07,639
to produce you would never have had Michelangelo Buneratti, you

725
00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:10,480
would never have Leonardo, you know, you would never have

726
00:45:11,039 --> 00:45:17,760
insert artists that you like without you know, powerful rich

727
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:22,320
people subsidizing them and and and allowing them to produce

728
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,039
these things. Because it's as I said, it's it's it's

729
00:45:25,159 --> 00:45:28,320
like a vital sign. It's it's a it's like having

730
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,039
a complete blood count. Every one of those things is important,

731
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,480
is an important indicator of the health of the body,

732
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,960
health of the organism. And as I say, I mean

733
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,800
each one of these aspects of you know, law and order,

734
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,840
you know, art and culture. Each one of these things

735
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,239
is the kind of vital sign of the body of civilization.

736
00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:51,400
And you know, when one of them starts to fail,

737
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,719
then they all go, you know, I mean that they

738
00:45:54,199 --> 00:45:57,360
rely on each other, and that you know, we're in

739
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,760
this strange moment of flux. Something better come out of this,

740
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,119
I don't know, but certainly for the people living within it,

741
00:46:04,159 --> 00:46:09,320
and people like me who are you know, older and

742
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:14,000
and sort of now hopelessly wedded to you know, to

743
00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:16,599
these older ideas. I mean, it's it's terrifying and I

744
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,599
I don't want to see these these things pass away,

745
00:46:19,599 --> 00:46:22,440
but I'm afraid they already have. So you know, in

746
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,239
a way, we also, I mean, we can try to

747
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,440
keep things alive. We can try to keep some of

748
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,239
these systems and some of these these aspects of creation alive,

749
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,639
but we also have to understand that they're necessarily going

750
00:46:34,679 --> 00:46:38,719
to change. And but you know, I think we're moving

751
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,320
into a period of darkness. And of course, in such periods,

752
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,039
you know, art is not known to flourish. You know,

753
00:46:48,119 --> 00:46:52,280
you you don't have the comfortable conditions needed to produce

754
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:57,159
your David Lynch, David Lynch came out of a kind

755
00:46:57,199 --> 00:47:05,079
of a nation in flux, but there was an underlying

756
00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:09,000
system of support without which you know, you would never

757
00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:10,800
you would never get a vision like that. You would

758
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,760
never get a sort of strange, quirky, you know, unique.

759
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:21,199
And I was going to say iconoclastic, but he's absolutely

760
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,880
the opposite. You know, you can't you can't accuse of

761
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:29,519
someone of creating astoundingly resonant images of being an iconoclass.

762
00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:30,840
But you sort of know what I mean.

763
00:47:33,079 --> 00:47:37,519
Speaker 1: Well, and I think that it's in this point has

764
00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:41,960
been made you know many times before, right that you're

765
00:47:42,119 --> 00:47:46,119
entirely correct to say that the system we are looking

766
00:47:46,159 --> 00:47:48,000
back to, the one that is sort of passing away,

767
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,599
is in the grand scheme of things quite new and novel.

768
00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:56,559
There's a great video searching for it, and was able

769
00:47:56,599 --> 00:48:02,480
to find it by long term friend of mine, vingal

770
00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:05,519
b I n g u L. You can find him

771
00:48:04,519 --> 00:48:08,960
on YouTube and he has a great channel, mostly of

772
00:48:09,199 --> 00:48:15,360
archival footage, and he has a series of captured of

773
00:48:16,039 --> 00:48:21,519
Cajun life in the late sixties and seventies when Louisiana

774
00:48:21,679 --> 00:48:23,880
was even more of a backwater than it is now.

775
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,480
And one of them is a great clip of accordion

776
00:48:29,559 --> 00:48:33,159
maker Mark Savoy. You guys should be able to find

777
00:48:33,159 --> 00:48:37,400
it from that vingle is the channel. And it's interesting

778
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,760
because one of the things that kept that culture, kept

779
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,519
that music alive, was effectively the fact that it was

780
00:48:45,599 --> 00:48:49,840
laboring in almost complete and total obscurity. Right. There was

781
00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:54,760
no system of dispersion for that music. You know, there

782
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,119
was no Nashville, there was no standardization, and so, you know,

783
00:48:59,159 --> 00:49:01,119
as I found out from watching these sort of little

784
00:49:01,119 --> 00:49:07,199
mini documentaries, because it's sort of organically just kind of

785
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,559
sat there, it developed a completely separate set of one

786
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,360
local institutions, you know, whether that how that that sort

787
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,559
of art that culture was practiced, but also a kind

788
00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:21,480
of you could say, kind of cottage industry surrounding it. Right,

789
00:49:21,559 --> 00:49:23,880
The accordions had to be made in a certain way,

790
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:29,400
and so someone arose to make them. And I think

791
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,159
a lot about the fact that you know, you and I,

792
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:37,760
mister D and our friends are very much in sort

793
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,360
of an internet ghetto, you know, whether we want it

794
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,960
to be or not, And there are certain downsides to that,

795
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,480
but I do think that that creates an interesting opportunity

796
00:49:47,519 --> 00:49:52,519
to sort of crystallize something not sure what it is,

797
00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:58,159
but I've been really encouraged over the last year because

798
00:49:58,519 --> 00:50:00,920
you know, for a long time I've heard and you know,

799
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,320
heard people a pine on the need for right wing art,

800
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,480
and I sort of disagree with that formulation on its face.

801
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:18,199
Maybe a discussion for another time, but nonetheless, people I

802
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,519
met through this circle have started to produce very, very

803
00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:24,480
good But in my case it's mostly literature because the

804
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,119
only thing I know anything about whatsoever they there might

805
00:50:28,119 --> 00:50:31,320
be good painters, I just have no ability to identify it.

806
00:50:31,639 --> 00:50:34,679
And to me that is interesting and one of the things,

807
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,079
because I interview a great number of these people, that

808
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:41,960
is sort of universally part of that story or part

809
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,000
of the artist statement, I guess you could say, is

810
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:51,320
effectively the fact that like the system for selecting talent

811
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,840
in culture broke, and it broke a long time ago,

812
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:56,960
and so you have guys who you know, are not

813
00:50:57,039 --> 00:50:59,679
young men right there in the they're in their middle

814
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:04,400
aged years. You know, they're who are You've been sort

815
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:09,039
of forced to continue to labor away, continue to create

816
00:51:09,119 --> 00:51:15,159
in obscurity because that selection mechanism is broken. And I

817
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,159
sort of find the you know, bi monthly conversations about

818
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,800
right wing art again just on its face irritating, but

819
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,480
that was a very encouraging sign for me, Like, oh, okay,

820
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,440
like we have gathered at least a couple of creatives

821
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,639
around who are actually worth having, who don't just have

822
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,159
potential like one day you could be good, but like,

823
00:51:36,199 --> 00:51:39,559
are actually producing really good work. And I think of

824
00:51:39,639 --> 00:51:43,079
my buddy Andrew Edwards and others, and I'm curious, what

825
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,679
do you make of that? Right, Because on one hand,

826
00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:49,920
you know, you have this kind of desire to treat

827
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:54,840
art and cultural product. Right, You're right, just sort of

828
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,519
sound like craft cheese or something. It's almost like a

829
00:51:57,559 --> 00:52:00,320
tech tree in a video game. Right, Well, you at

830
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,280
this number of points and you get one art, you know,

831
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,199
you get a culture, which I think is wrong. But

832
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,000
at the same time, right, if we accept that, you know,

833
00:52:10,039 --> 00:52:14,440
there's a certain number who have that genius gift from

834
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,519
God whatever, who are not able to advance in the

835
00:52:18,559 --> 00:52:21,920
traditional way, well we would assume that they will end

836
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,199
up here nowhere else. So kick it to you, mister d.

837
00:52:26,599 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 2: Oh. Yeah, there's a lot, a lot a lot there.

838
00:52:29,039 --> 00:52:31,280
I mean, first of all, if you are touched by

839
00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:34,119
that particularly genius I'm not going to be so sort

840
00:52:34,159 --> 00:52:39,800
of sort of self grandizing to say that myself, but

841
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,760
in a way I do, I mean, you know, in

842
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,559
a way if you are I mean, if you have

843
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,920
dedicated that I have my life to you know, to art,

844
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,519
and one way or the other, and then then you know,

845
00:52:51,599 --> 00:52:55,880
you are familiar with going to this great well spreen

846
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,480
stream of inspiration and drawing from it and being very

847
00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:03,239
lucky when you are able to reach it. When when

848
00:53:03,599 --> 00:53:06,840
when that, when you are able to extract a bucket

849
00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:10,639
of water from from this great stream of creativity, whether

850
00:53:10,679 --> 00:53:14,719
you call it genius or whatever, you know, And of

851
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:19,039
course it's not, it does not always. Your thirst is

852
00:53:19,039 --> 00:53:21,920
not always quenched when you go to that spring to drink.

853
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,280
In fact, often it isn't, you know. And often, you know,

854
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,639
even great artists you know, I know, I know several

855
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,440
quick you know, famous artists and have known, and you

856
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,400
know it's a universal thing that, of course, sometimes that inspiration,

857
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,440
you know, that well is dry, and it remains that

858
00:53:44,519 --> 00:53:47,880
way sometimes for years for people. The thing about this

859
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:54,719
I think is very important is that fundamentally, the things

860
00:53:54,760 --> 00:54:00,480
I consider great transcendent art you do not go to

861
00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:06,599
that stream with any other intention, but to receive something

862
00:54:06,639 --> 00:54:10,880
that is greater than us, some some some flow, some

863
00:54:11,159 --> 00:54:16,719
access to you know, the kind of cosmic shared universal mind,

864
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,880
whatever you call it. You don't go there with conditions.

865
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:22,960
In other words, you don't get there and say, okay,

866
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,199
well I like to dip my toe in the waters.

867
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:30,440
But I want, I want, I want right wing art.

868
00:54:30,599 --> 00:54:32,559
I want I want whatever you give me to be

869
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,280
right wing whatever that means. I mean, it's the most idiotic,

870
00:54:36,559 --> 00:54:40,360
stupid formulation. There is no right wing art, just like

871
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,639
there's no left wing art. I mean, there are are

872
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,480
certainly plenty of examples. I and I talked earlier about

873
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:50,920
how things are used cynically, and they're used, you know,

874
00:54:51,159 --> 00:54:53,880
but by some people, and they use in a pure sense.

875
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:59,239
It's it's anyone can take anything, you know, uh and

876
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,920
use it in a in a dark way. They you know,

877
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:10,000
you can. You can you can pollute something pure and beautiful,

878
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:14,320
or you can exalt it. And so I mean, this

879
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,960
is the problem with trying to categorize art. I mean,

880
00:55:17,079 --> 00:55:19,960
art is like so many other things that we talk

881
00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:24,360
of as components of civilization, components of culture, components of

882
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,960
a healthy you know, healthy people, and healthy nation. They're not.

883
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:33,039
They don't have qualifiers. You know again, you don't. You

884
00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:37,880
don't produce a great civilization with right wing art. You

885
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,920
produce it with art. You don't produce it with right

886
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,639
wing truth. You produce it with truth. You know, you

887
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,239
date produce it with this or that. I mean these

888
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:52,159
political categorizations of these large and I use the word

889
00:55:52,159 --> 00:55:57,920
again deliberately transcendent things. They do not come with these

890
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,719
puny political qualifiers now and and so I think one

891
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,719
of the problems of existing in a kind of space,

892
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,599
and I say the online right wing space, is that

893
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:13,920
it's inherently everything is given this political prefix. And that

894
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:18,679
is important when you're talking about politics, but it is

895
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,920
absolutely poisonous when you start talking about these larger things.

896
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,800
You know, and you can take it to an absurd example,

897
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,079
and it's an easy maybe easy to see. You know, well,

898
00:56:28,119 --> 00:56:30,360
I want to have right wing you know, I want

899
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,519
to have a right wing marriage and right wing babies.

900
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,000
And what you mean when you say that is that

901
00:56:35,079 --> 00:56:38,159
you want, you know again, you want to adhere to

902
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,280
a kind of traditional model model that we know works,

903
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,920
a model that you know that worked for your parents

904
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,480
and your grandparents and your ancestors, whatever. But again you

905
00:56:47,599 --> 00:56:52,719
make the mistake when you assume that that is political.

906
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,400
I mean it's political in the kind of lowest sense,

907
00:56:55,559 --> 00:56:57,760
but you know, in the larger sense, these are these

908
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,639
are things that are bigger, the bigger than kind of

909
00:57:00,679 --> 00:57:04,599
these these sort of you know, these sort of ideas

910
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,079
that flow around the kind of way that we consume

911
00:57:09,039 --> 00:57:11,400
we consume things well.

912
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:16,679
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I've taken from are

913
00:57:16,719 --> 00:57:19,760
in McIntyre's book, which is quite good, you should all

914
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:25,159
read it, is he describes this process by which things

915
00:57:25,199 --> 00:57:30,159
that were sort of pre political when they're dragged into

916
00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:33,199
the realm of politics. I not only does it a

917
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,199
miserate people, but that is what grows the power of

918
00:57:37,239 --> 00:57:41,679
the state. So we'll take you know, marriage and child rearing.

919
00:57:43,199 --> 00:57:49,159
Once that becomes I guess the appropriate venue for politics

920
00:57:49,239 --> 00:57:52,760
due to you know, the pill, the sexual revolution, the suffragettes.

921
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,679
Wherever you pick as the objectionable point, well, that becomes

922
00:57:57,679 --> 00:58:01,440
an arena for power to play it. Like you know,

923
00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:09,679
pick your favorite pre modern just evil man, right that

924
00:58:09,719 --> 00:58:15,119
whichever guy that is, Like, can you imagine him dictating

925
00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:17,719
the terms of a divorce? Like can you imagine Genghis

926
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,000
Khan writing in and saying, oh, well, you know you

927
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,440
you need to treat your wife in such a way

928
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,920
either the most kind of you know, comedically evil, you know,

929
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,320
despot in the world. No, it was just not considered

930
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,719
to be within the realm of politics, right, It was

931
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:39,000
just what people do. And I think that is as

932
00:58:39,079 --> 00:58:40,960
the state has grown, right, as more and more of

933
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,199
those bonds have been broken, you know, bonds that were

934
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,800
a political outside of the realm of the polis, well,

935
00:58:48,679 --> 00:58:51,800
the state, whatever you want to say, power politics, it

936
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,440
enters in. It takes up that slack and it grows

937
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:56,519
from it. Like this is part of the reason why

938
00:58:56,559 --> 00:58:59,679
it is so interested in breaking social bonds, because that

939
00:58:59,719 --> 00:59:03,360
becomes an opportunity for a decision to be made, right,

940
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,559
it becomes a place to put your senecures, all of

941
00:59:06,599 --> 00:59:13,239
these things. And so I understand using political analysis to

942
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:15,960
look at these issues. But of course, you know, as

943
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:20,559
as another you know friend and influence of mine often says, right,

944
00:59:20,559 --> 00:59:23,159
the solution is not political, And of course you could

945
00:59:23,199 --> 00:59:25,280
look at that and say, well, obviously the solution to

946
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:31,000
politics is politics, Yes, clearly, But to your point, mister

947
00:59:31,079 --> 00:59:35,519
d that in and of itself, the fact that all

948
00:59:35,559 --> 00:59:41,639
of these things have been subsumed into the political process.

949
00:59:41,679 --> 00:59:45,400
Is very much that is at the core of the problem, right,

950
00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:49,679
That is sort of the project product of modernity. Right

951
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,119
is taking all of these these institutions, these relationships, which were,

952
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,239
if not fixed, at the very least non political per se,

953
00:59:57,679 --> 01:00:00,960
and bringing them into that realm. So I understand why

954
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:02,960
someone would say, well, I want a right wing marriage,

955
01:00:03,039 --> 01:00:05,440
or I want, you know, a right wing relationship with

956
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,960
my father. And I sort of get what they mean

957
01:00:08,679 --> 01:00:11,119
when they say that, but at the same time, it's

958
01:00:11,159 --> 01:00:15,639
sort of missing the forest through the trees. Hopefully not

959
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,239
too poorly made a point there.

960
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:21,679
Speaker 2: No, I mean, you know, and and of course it's

961
01:00:21,719 --> 01:00:24,760
a justifiable thing. I just I just think people they

962
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:26,719
give it the wrong name. You know, you don't you

963
01:00:26,719 --> 01:00:29,920
don't want a right wing marriage, you want a moral marriage,

964
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,519
you know. I think sometimes we you know, I just

965
01:00:33,559 --> 01:00:36,519
think the whole idea of the right wing, you know,

966
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,440
it's just it's no longer useful again. It's an ancient

967
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,360
you know, it's a metaphor, it's a it's a kind

968
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:46,519
of a system of categorization that comes from the French Revolution,

969
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,679
you know, and it just I don't know what use

970
01:00:50,719 --> 01:00:54,159
it has anymore, you know. I mean I look at

971
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,239
you know, I look at if you if you want

972
01:00:56,239 --> 01:00:59,199
to do it with political parties. You know, there's nothing

973
01:00:59,239 --> 01:01:04,599
that you know, the Republican Party, which is where the

974
01:01:04,679 --> 01:01:07,920
right wing o sensibly if politics lives in America. I mean,

975
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,960
there's nothing that particularly that they're doing in a broader

976
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,159
sense that I won't have anything to do with and

977
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,920
has any sort of bearing on my vision of a

978
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:20,079
functional civilization. And certainly it grows more distant every day,

979
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,719
you know, just just as of course, I mean Donald

980
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:29,559
Trump he's done, you know, some things that are wonderful

981
01:01:29,639 --> 01:01:32,639
and certainly in the direction that we want to go,

982
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,679
you know, effectively stopping border crossings. But you know, in

983
01:01:36,719 --> 01:01:39,599
another sense, I don't look to Donald Trump, you know,

984
01:01:40,519 --> 01:01:45,239
as someone who's a model of my sort of ideal, healthy,

985
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:50,239
healthy civilization. You know, I mean, certainly on the esthetic front,

986
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:54,960
he must have some of the worst instincts towards esthetics

987
01:01:55,159 --> 01:01:58,239
of anyone I've ever seen. Just look at what he's

988
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,840
done to the White House. Fortunately I don't I'm not

989
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,519
terribly bothered by that, because all that can be stripped away,

990
01:02:03,519 --> 01:02:05,480
and that's just the case all the time. I mean,

991
01:02:05,679 --> 01:02:07,320
you you know, you could look at the White House

992
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,679
during the Victorian era when you know it's sort of

993
01:02:09,719 --> 01:02:13,440
plagued by potted plants and dark drapes and whatever. I mean,

994
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,599
all that stuff can be stripped off, all those plastic

995
01:02:15,639 --> 01:02:20,519
gilded things, hope fortunately can be taken away. You know, fine,

996
01:02:20,519 --> 01:02:22,840
but you know it's a problem when you you sort

997
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:28,280
of you sort of mix sure your larger goals up

998
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:34,199
with smaller kind of political political spaces or movements or whatever,

999
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:39,559
and a lot of you know, really sort of blinkered people.

1000
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:42,159
Will you know what is right wing art? Well, you

1001
01:02:42,199 --> 01:02:45,760
know it's sort of pastly colored paintings of women with

1002
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:48,880
garlands of flowers around their hair carrying baskets of wheat.

1003
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:53,079
You know, well that can be good, but generally you

1004
01:02:53,119 --> 01:02:56,280
know that. Or you know, yeah, what's right wing architecture,

1005
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:58,400
Well it looks like it's sort of a variation on

1006
01:02:58,559 --> 01:03:01,159
Art Deco, or it looks like it looks like Georgian

1007
01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:04,760
and you know it's Georgian facades. I mean, it's just

1008
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,920
a very narrow way to look at to look at

1009
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:09,800
these these sort of huge issues.

1010
01:03:11,679 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: Mister d I think that optimal right wing art. Uh.

1011
01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:17,239
You know it's sort of like the you know, the

1012
01:03:17,239 --> 01:03:21,159
the Assyrian tablets in the met right, just just a

1013
01:03:21,199 --> 01:03:24,960
picture of you with the the skate, the flayed skin

1014
01:03:25,639 --> 01:03:28,880
of you know, someone you don't like, and then just

1015
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,599
a description of how you you killed him and all

1016
01:03:31,599 --> 01:03:32,519
of his friends.

1017
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 2: Ah.

1018
01:03:34,239 --> 01:03:38,079
Speaker 1: But no, I take your point there, mister d Unfortunately

1019
01:03:38,119 --> 01:03:40,840
we're at time. It's been a Honestly, it's been a

1020
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,800
very interesting conversation for me, which is why I have

1021
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,000
you on, to be perfectly honest, because I enjoy speaking

1022
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,760
to you. We mentioned your YouTube channel. I know we

1023
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,159
can find you on Twitter's there anywhere else people can

1024
01:03:51,159 --> 01:03:53,199
look for you.

1025
01:03:53,239 --> 01:03:57,719
Speaker 2: No, I mean, you know, it's certainly well. I mean,

1026
01:03:57,880 --> 01:03:59,639
you know, if I can make one a sort of

1027
01:03:59,639 --> 01:04:04,719
final wait, you know I don't ever share my artwork,

1028
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,400
you know, it is it is a side of my

1029
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:10,159
that isn't you know that that is not part of

1030
01:04:10,199 --> 01:04:15,559
my online you know, my my online presence. And there's

1031
01:04:15,599 --> 01:04:18,079
many reasons for that, and of course a lot of

1032
01:04:18,079 --> 01:04:22,199
them are kind of again trying to keep because I

1033
01:04:22,559 --> 01:04:25,239
view it as very fragile, as I said earlier, my

1034
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:30,679
relationship to of course inspiration whatever that may be I

1035
01:04:30,719 --> 01:04:34,480
think of it as a kind of metaphysical and mysterious

1036
01:04:34,519 --> 01:04:40,599
and spiritual connection, and I don't want to profane it

1037
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:45,480
or sully it with these kind of against what I

1038
01:04:45,519 --> 01:04:48,000
consider kind of low questions. So I just I sort

1039
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:50,800
of keep my own work out of it because I

1040
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:53,239
don't know. I mean, honestly, I think that. And if

1041
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:55,639
you ask any artist, certainly if you would ask David Lynch,

1042
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:57,920
you know, he was you know, I relate a little

1043
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,519
anecdote where someone said, well, well, he said, Eraise Ahead

1044
01:05:01,559 --> 01:05:04,880
is my most spiritual film, and they said, well, please explain,

1045
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,039
and he said no, and in a way, of course

1046
01:05:07,039 --> 01:05:09,760
he couldn't. I mean, you know, and I think that's

1047
01:05:10,199 --> 01:05:13,119
what happens with a lot of artists, is that, you know,

1048
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:20,400
it's a fragile connection to this, to inspiration and to meaning,

1049
01:05:20,719 --> 01:05:24,639
you know, and it's almost out of our leagues, you know.

1050
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:29,039
We know, to sort of define it is to kind

1051
01:05:29,039 --> 01:05:32,280
of to grasp at that ghost is to watch it

1052
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:35,719
disappear in your fingers. So it's a complex question, and

1053
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,840
we certainly talk about it at a future time. Also,

1054
01:05:39,159 --> 01:05:42,480
to tie up the beginning in the end, I mentioned

1055
01:05:42,519 --> 01:05:45,800
mel Brooks earlier. Well, it was actually mel Brooks who

1056
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,239
allowed David Lynch to make Eras Ahead it. Mel Brooks

1057
01:05:51,599 --> 01:05:56,360
partially funded it and partially funded David Ditch's early filmmaking career,

1058
01:05:56,519 --> 01:05:59,079
so weirdly enough, but you know, I mean, this is

1059
01:05:59,119 --> 01:06:02,800
the system of kind of influence and patronage that is

1060
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:07,639
very important to artists. And if you want to patronize

1061
01:06:07,639 --> 01:06:10,239
me you can certainly, yes, visit my YouTube channel. I

1062
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,679
will be having new content on there, including a review

1063
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:17,440
of Twin Peaks Season three, Twin Peaks Return, which I've

1064
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,280
been an ongoing project I've been doing with my friends

1065
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:27,280
Matthew Williams aka the Prudentialist and Christopher Sandbatch. And on Twitter,

1066
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,039
I do Twitter spaces all the time, which are free

1067
01:06:30,079 --> 01:06:35,079
form discussions of things high and though and mister Burton,

1068
01:06:35,559 --> 01:06:38,199
well it very occasionally pops up as well, and I'm always

1069
01:06:38,239 --> 01:06:40,559
happy to see him, and I'm always happy to speak

1070
01:06:40,599 --> 01:06:43,280
with you, and thank you for inviting me on your show.

1071
01:06:44,679 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 1: Well definitely it's been too long, mister d We'll have

1072
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,960
you on again soon. Thank you,