WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.560 --> 00:00:03.359 Okay, we're live. How this is William Ramsey. 2 00:00:03.359 --> 00:00:05.759 Welcome to William Ramsey investigates on today's show of a 3 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:09.640 very special guest or returning guest. His name is Joseph McBride. 4 00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:13.640 We spoke recently about a book he published in December 5 00:00:13.640 --> 00:00:16.640 twenty twenty one title Political Truth, The Media and the 6 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:19.760 Assassination of President Kennedy. But we're going to talk about 7 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:22.079 another book he published in twenty twenty one. The title 8 00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:25.320 of that book is Billy Wilder Dancing on the Edge, 9 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:31.920 and it's a very thorough detailed study memoir about really 10 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:36.719 an important director of so many important films doublin dimnity 11 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.479 some like it hot, very important cultural films. 12 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:41.359 But I got a lot of background. I didn't know 13 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:41.840 about that. 14 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:45.240 I know my parents love his films, so I've seen 15 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:47.359 them in black and white, but I didn't know he 16 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.039 had a really fascinating background. And we're going to learn 17 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:54.840 more about that. But Joseph McBride is an American film historian, biographer, screenwriter, 18 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:58.039 and professor in the University in the School of Cinema 19 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:01.479 at San Francisco State University. Published twenty four books since 20 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:05.439 nineteen sixty eight, including acclaimed biographies of Frank Capra, John 21 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:09.079 Ford and Steven Spielberg. He's done a number of inquiries 22 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:13.439 into the JFK assassination, which we talked about last time, 23 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:18.359 and he had definitely Novelist Thomas Flanagan and The New 24 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:21.359 York Review of Books called McBride's wide knowledge of American 25 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:25.719 social history, which informs his work in the JFK Assassination 26 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:29.239 and in this book. But he's also written I'm not 27 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:30.840 going to list all of his books, but a few 28 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.799 of the other titles are Whatever Happened to Orson Wells, 29 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:37.519 a portrait of an independent career, The Whole Durned Human 30 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:44.480 comedy life according to the Cohen Brothers, Frankly Unmasking Frank Capra, 31 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:48.200 and then another one another biography that ties into this book, 32 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:51.640 character and filmmaker I didn't know much about. But the 33 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:54.560 title of that book is how did Lubitch Do It? 34 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:58.319 And Lubich ties in as an acquaintance and friend of 35 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:02.079 Billy Wilder. But you can find more about that. But 36 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:05.040 those are just some of the books and his long career. 37 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:08.120 In this book he has he can talk about that, 38 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:10.719 but he has a signed picture of Billy Wilder in it, 39 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:13.319 but I'm delighted to have him back. So Joseph McBride, 40 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:15.599 welcome back to the show. Thanks for ging to the interview. 41 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:18.000 Thank you, William, it's going to be back with you, 42 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:22.159 and thank you for mentioning those books. Yeah, I had 43 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:27.199 four books out since October. It's been a busy period 44 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:30.280 for me the last two or three years. The Wilder 45 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:33.479 book was long in the works, as was Political Truth, 46 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:38.240 and the Wells book is I did an epilogue to 47 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:41.479 book I published earlier. It's the first time it's in paperback. 48 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:45.560 And the Cohn Brothers book is partly new and partly 49 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.639 based on a long essay I did on them in 50 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:52.680 a book till five years ago called Teachers for Hollywood. 51 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:55.199 It's a collection of my short work, but I wanted 52 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:57.479 to spin off the Cone Brothers into their own book. 53 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:00.599 But Wilder has always been one of my very favorite 54 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:03.199 directors and I've admired him. I've been writing about him 55 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:07.120 for more than fifty years now. My first article about 56 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.319 him was published in nineteen seventy and Film Quarterly with 57 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:14.280 my collaborator Michael Wilmington, who died recently, and Mike and 58 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:18.120 I were writing articles and films together and we did 59 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:20.879 a piece called The Private Life of Billy Wilder, which 60 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:24.240 was a career overview, and we were quite young when 61 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:26.520 we wrote it, but I still think most of it 62 00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:29.560 holds up pretty well. And so you know, I've been 63 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:33.759 following him all those years. I did an essay in 64 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.800 nineteen seventy two seventy three on his film Avanti, which 65 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:41.159 I like very much, which was underrated, and also Mike 66 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:44.039 and I reviewed Private Life for Showlike Holmes, and then 67 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:48.719 the film was These films are beloved by Wilder fans, 68 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:52.120 but they were not popular at the box office because 69 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:55.879 he was in his later work. He was known earlier 70 00:03:55.919 --> 00:04:02.759 for being very a cerviic and sarcastic, hard edged social statirists. 71 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:07.039 But he made some ramantic comedies. He was trying to 72 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:13.719 emulate Lubitch, his mentor, and they weren't totally successful until 73 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:16.040 he made a Banti, which I believe is one of 74 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:23.160 his best films, and it says here, wasn't he the director? 75 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:26.360 They got to film the alleged atrocities at Auschwitz. Well, 76 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:30.079 first of all, those weren't alleged, they were real electrocities. 77 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:33.120 He didn't film them, per se. He worked on a 78 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:37.839 film called Death Mills, which the US Army did right after. 79 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:40.920 Right at the end of World War Two, Wilder was 80 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:46.959 assigned to the Army in Germany to handle the dinassification 81 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:49.920 of the German film industry. He was supposed to sort 82 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:53.199 out the Nazis from the non Nazis, and that didn't 83 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:58.240 pan out because the Americans were trying to kind of 84 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:02.319 play ball with a lot of the form Nazis, especially 85 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:06.319 in the intelligence agencies after the war, so we didn't 86 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.600 denotify as early as we could have. But Death Mills 87 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.720 was a film that another director had put together, and 88 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:19.000 Wilder did some re editing and rewriting of the dialogue 89 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:24.240 actually the narration, and it shows a number of death camps. 90 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:29.680 Wilder believed his mother died in Auschwitz, but two ostro 91 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:33.680 and biographers found a record at yad Va Shem in Jerusalem, 92 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:39.920 the Holocaust Center there from his mother's brother testifying that 93 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:43.959 she died at the Plashau camp in Krakau, which if 94 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:46.639 you've seen Schindler's List, that's the camp that's run by 95 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:53.040 the psychopathic Nazi played by Ray Fines. And his stepfather 96 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.480 died at another camp, and his grandmother died at another place. 97 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:02.879 And one of the ironies was Wilder wanted to make 98 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:05.720 Schindler's List as a tribute to his family who died 99 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:09.160 in Auschwitz. Is the way he put it. Excuse me, 100 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:12.319 but he never knew that his mother actually died at 101 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:14.759 the camp. Was portrayed in the film. 102 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:20.040 Yea am On Goth was the psychopathic monster who tortured 103 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:22.120 a lot and murdered a lot of people. And it 104 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:23.759 was interesting. That was the one thing I learned in 105 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:27.519 your book about Billy Wilder is his interest his connection 106 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:30.360 to the Holocaust, but his interest in wanting to make 107 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:34.839 this film with or by himself, and his communication with 108 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.279 Steven Spielberg. I found that very interesting. Yeah, he this 109 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:40.560 is really at the very end of his career. He 110 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:42.800 hadn't been able to make a film since nineteen eighty one. 111 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:46.319 But the book by Thomas Canneely came out in nineteen 112 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:48.639 eighty two and he tried to buy it. That Sid 113 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:52.240 Sheinberg at Universally had a production there, had bought it, 114 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:55.720 helping Spielberg would make it. Sheinberg was kind of Spielberg's patron, 115 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:00.120 and Spielberg wasn't ready to make it. He kept hesitating 116 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:04.279 for about a decade he didn't think he was mature 117 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:06.399 enough to make the film, and then he finally decided 118 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:10.120 to make it. And during that time Wilder had talked 119 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:12.959 to Spielberg. Spielberg was a big admirer of Wilder and 120 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:17.879 still is, and Wilder said, you know, I could produce it, 121 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.120 you could direct it, or vice versa or whatever. And 122 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:24.560 finally nothing was happening for a long time. Wilder called 123 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:28.120 him in the early nineties and said, you know, how 124 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:30.600 about Schindler's List, We could still do it together. And 125 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:34.000 Spielberg had to tell him where in pre production were 126 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:37.079 starting in a few months and I'm sorry, you know, 127 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:39.560 I'm making the film, and Wilder took it well, and 128 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:42.839 Spielberg said it was the most difficult phone call of 129 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:46.199 his life. Wilder loved the film. He said it was 130 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:49.199 the best film he ever saw on He wrote an 131 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:54.319 essay on a review for a Bavarian newspaper or magazine 132 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:57.240 and it's interesting he chose Bavaria because that's where the 133 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:03.319 Nazis originated and he read about Holocaust. Well, he said 134 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:06.040 it really made him feel that he was there, you know, 135 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:08.879 which I interviewed to a lot of Holocaust survivors from 136 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:12.279 my book on Spielberg, and that's what they all told me. 137 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:17.000 They told me two things. Every thirty five Holocaust survivors 138 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:19.920 said that it made them feel like they were back 139 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:23.279 in that time and place, which is a high compliment 140 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:26.120 for a filmmaker to do that. But they all said 141 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:28.079 the only flaw they saw on the film was that 142 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.720 Gross was played by actor who was handsome, and he 143 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:34.639 was not a handsome man. He was ugly and tesque, 144 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.600 and I think Spielberg cast finds aside from the fact 145 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:42.120 that he's a very good actor, but he wanted to 146 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:47.480 make him more humanized so you could understand him evil. 147 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.960 If he was a caricature or just gross looking person, 148 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.360 people might not have been able to kind of care 149 00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:59.799 about understanding him, I think was the reason. But these Holocausts, 150 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:03.960 and I interviewed one one man whose job was to 151 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.759 He was a teenager and he handled the German shepherds 152 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:11.080 that Girth used at the Flaschno camp to attack Jews. 153 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:15.480 And here's this Jewish kid who's caring for these German shepherds, 154 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:19.360 and they would you know, Garth was torturing and killing people, 155 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:21.960 and he would sick the dogs of people, and this 156 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:25.240 kid had to take care of them anyway. Wilder at 157 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:29.440 the end of his review, he brought up Holocaust revisionism 158 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:32.679 and said that there are people who don't believe it happened, 159 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:36.000 and he said, I for those people, I have just 160 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:38.720 one question, where is my mother? All Right? 161 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:43.919 And it goes back to his childhood in Middle Europa, right, 162 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:47.279 So he came from that environment. He was really an 163 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:50.240 excellent refugee. I think that theme you point out is 164 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:51.879 in his life and in the films too. 165 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:52.120 Right. 166 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:55.879 Yeah, he was in exile five times over. I believe 167 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:58.440 he was born in what's now Poland. It was then 168 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:02.039 part of the Austro Hungarian Then they moved to Poland, 169 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:08.399 to Krakau in Poland, and his father ran railroad cafes 170 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:10.840 and then he had a hotel in Krakau, and so 171 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:13.120 Wilder lived there for a few years, and then they 172 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:18.759 moved to Vienna, and it turned out Wilder it's, you know, 173 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:20.960 a great city of the arts and things. But Wilder 174 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:24.480 felt it was even more anti semitic than Berlin, ironically, 175 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:29.000 where he moved after that. But he lived his formative years, 176 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:32.639 for his adolescent and young adult years in Vienna. He 177 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:36.480 started working for a newspaper and magazines there. And there's 178 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:39.480 a whole book of his Vienna journalism published in German 179 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:41.840 that I read. And then there's a book of his 180 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:47.840 German journalism, separate book, and it's very interesting stuff. And I, 181 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:50.399 since I'm an old journalist and I like to follow 182 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:55.960 an artist progression and growth, I really studied his journalism 183 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.679 to see how he developed as a writer. He always 184 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:01.799 thought of himself primarily as a writer, but also there 185 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:04.519 are seeds of his later films in some of the articles, 186 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:08.360 like there's he was very enamored of a girl's band 187 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:12.559 and dance troupe called Tiller Girls came from England to 188 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:14.840 Vienna and he met them at the train and he 189 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:18.720 wrote this gloring, kind of heavy breathing article about them. 190 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:23.919 He was a very free spirited journalist. He didn't write 191 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:28.799 staid prose. He wrote kind of impressionistic essays in effect 192 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:30.840 for these papers that allowed him to do that in 193 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:33.919 the magazine, and he actually fell in love with one 194 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:38.200 of the dancers, his name was Olive. And then he 195 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:43.519 got to Berlin because he was a big fan of 196 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:47.639 American jazz. He's a fan of American movies, American jazz, 197 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.120 like a lot of Europeans were in those days. And 198 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:56.399 Wilder loved Paul Whiteman, the American bandleader who he popularly. 199 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:00.919 He's a white band leader, but he kind of popularized 200 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:05.679 jazz with white audiences acrossover. The former Duke Ellington was 201 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:08.759 very high on Whiteman, and he was a very popular man, 202 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:10.919 and Wilder just idolized him and he got it. He 203 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:13.720 talked himself into a job with Whiteman to go to 204 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:16.840 Berlin with him and his band to be a publicist, 205 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.519 and he wrote another glowing review of Whiteman in Berlin 206 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:22.200 that may have been kind of a quick for a quote. 207 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.399 But he got out of Vienna. I got to Berlin, 208 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.399 which was probably the most exciting city in Europe at 209 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:33.919 that time, full of cultural firm engine political unrest, and 210 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:37.879 they had a lot of magazines and newspapers. So he 211 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.399 was one of many journalists and he struggled, you know, 212 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:44.080 to make a living because there's a lot of competition. 213 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:46.080 But he kind of made a name for himself. He 214 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.799 wrote a famous four part series called Waiter, Bring Me 215 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:53.679 a Dancer, which was about his time as a tea dancer. 216 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:58.600 It's called an eintencer dancing for chips with older ladies 217 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.279 or even younger ladies that with a couple of hotels 218 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:05.480 in Berlin. It's really wonderful writing. It reads like a film, 219 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:07.679 and it could be a film. And he told me 220 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:14.159 it was partly fantasy, partly fictionalized, partly real. And for 221 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:16.000 a long time there was a debate whether it was 222 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:19.840 he really a tee d answer and then decided to 223 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:22.200 write about it or did he take the job so 224 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:23.840 he could write about it, And he admitted to me 225 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:27.799 he really was a tee d answer in between newspaper gigs. 226 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.440 And then he thought I could write this as well, 227 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.080 and that helped make a name for him. And then 228 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:35.440 he became a screenwriter in Berlin, and I studied his 229 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:39.519 German screenwriting, which was very interesting and mixed bag with 230 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.080 some good films and some not so good films. And 231 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.480 then he came to America when Hitler took over. He 232 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:46.840 actually he went to France first. He spent a year 233 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.639 in Paris. He directed his first film there called Mobile's 234 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:53.840 Ground which means bad seed. It's kind of a proto 235 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:59.399 new wave film about Karthie's young Carthy's a fun movie. 236 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:03.679 And then he came to America in thirty four, and 237 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:08.200 he struggled again in Hollywood to re establish himself. Writing 238 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:11.799 in a new language is difficult for anybody, and he 239 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:14.399 was just another writer in Hollywood. But he started getting 240 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:16.639 some credits, but most of the films weren't very good. 241 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:21.480 He was kind of typecast as a writer of operettas, 242 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:25.840 you know, kind of Schmallsey Viennese type of operettas, which 243 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:30.240 he had written some in Berlin as well. And we 244 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.480 don't think a Wilder as a musical director. He only 245 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.200 directed one fulcal edge of musical in Hollywood. It's called 246 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:40.720 The Emperor Waltz, which came out recently in blu Ray 247 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:43.039 and I did the commentary for it, which is actually 248 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:45.639 kind of a disguised metaphor for the Holocaust. It gets 249 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:50.480 very grim sometimes underneath the surface of beautiful things. 250 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.519 And it also kind of shows his European heritage, right, 251 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.600 So he brought that sensibility from growing up in all 252 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:02.240 these hotels, dance in hotels at the kind of center 253 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:06.279 of Berlin, brought some of those ideas to these states. 254 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.039 Right, Yeah, He and Luvich mostly that Levich came in 255 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:15.720 twenty two and Wilder, with his dark humor, said that 256 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:19.600 wild Luvitch was one of the talented ones who was 257 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:21.879 brought to Hollywood and didn't have to flee like I 258 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:24.879 and other people did. But Luvich was brought over because 259 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:27.120 he was the most important director in Germany at the time, 260 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.000 and he revolutionized the American films. He invented the musical 261 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.679 and invented the romantic comedy basically and set the pattern 262 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:39.320 for everybody. Tremendously influential. But he also brought a new 263 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.639 European sophistication, as you're suggesting, to American films, which were 264 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:48.120 still in the throes of Churchianism and Victorianism at the 265 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:51.120 time due w Griffiths films, etc. And Leuvich brought this 266 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:57.320 racier sensibility, very sophisticated romantic comedies and approach to sex, 267 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.000 and the American audists really loved that, and other people 268 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.039 began imitating him, and Wilder was doing the same kind 269 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.639 of films to some extended Berlin. And then the way 270 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.960 he came to America. The thing was he was typecast 271 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:17.159 as doing Schmaltz, and his natural tendency was more a 272 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:20.240 cerbic social satirist in those days, and he didn't get 273 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.840 much of a chance to exercise that until he worked 274 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.720 for Luvich on Liberard's Eighth Wife and Nanatchko, which was 275 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.759 Wilder's really big breakthrough in America. It's a great film 276 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:33.639 with Greta Garbo in nineteen thirty nine, and it established 277 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.679 him as a top screenwriter with his partner Charles Brackett, 278 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:39.480 and then they went out from there to do more films. 279 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:43.600 Then Wilder began directing again in Hollywood in nineteen forty two. 280 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:46.879 And then his assent wasn't assure. 281 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:50.480 Like he said, he was sleeping in like a closet 282 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.399 at the Chateau Mormont, struggling to find food when he 283 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:57.639 was here. So he may not have been like Lubachi, 284 00:16:57.799 --> 00:16:59.960 who was kind of established and moved over. 285 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:05.359 He got very very different circumstances. And yeah, he was 286 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:07.880 actually sleeping, he claimed he was sleeping in the ladies 287 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:10.160 room at the Chamo there. You know, there was kind 288 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.160 of like a parlor before the bathroom part, and he 289 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:17.079 you know, the parlor or whatever you call it, had 290 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:20.000 a cot in there for women to lie down and 291 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.559 and he commentered that cot, he said, and women would 292 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:25.400 come in and go to you know, peeing in the 293 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:28.000 background and kind of give him a funny look. And 294 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:30.839 he may have exaggerated that a little bit. It may 295 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.720 have been a room like right off the bathroom. But anyway, 296 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:37.000 that was kind of his low point in America. But 297 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:39.279 he only was there for a brief time. But he 298 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:43.240 spent uh some time at the Chateau Marmau. He had 299 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.319 his own little room after a while, and that's still 300 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:49.400 a famous solarooch hotel. A lot of European people stay 301 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:52.119 there and it's you know, books have been written about it. 302 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:54.960 And yeah, I've done I've actually interviewed an author who 303 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.559 Levy uh oh thing on Chatau more months. So people 304 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.599 want to learn more about that, they can listen to that. Yeah, 305 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.359 just looking chat to more mon of my Shoes one 306 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:08.640 of my past shows. Sean Levy, Sorry, Sean Leevy. Yeah, 307 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.440 I'm glad. He was a very good writer. And that's 308 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:13.480 the next time book and full of stories. 309 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:16.920 That's the hotel where John Belushi died, among other things, 310 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.640 and all kinds of stories having there. Wild Boulevard, which 311 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:26.440 Wilder later claimed his own cinematic territory with his great 312 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.519 nineteen fifty films. Since a Boulevard. But so Wilder was 313 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.079 marked by the Holocaust and anti Semitism. He had suffered 314 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:36.200 through some of that, and then he was very traumatized. 315 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.720 In nineteen thirty five, he had scraped together some money 316 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:43.559 as a screenwriter and he went to Vienna to see 317 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:46.519 his mother and stepfather and he tried to persuade them 318 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:50.319 to move to America because he knew as a journalist 319 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:53.920 that Hitler was on the rise and he would take 320 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:57.400 over Austria, and which happened not too long after that. 321 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:00.880 But the mother and stepfather were older, they were kind 322 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.839 of said in their ways, and he couldn't persuade them 323 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:06.480 to leave, and he felt terrible about then they felt 324 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.359 guilty about it when the war came, and knowing that 325 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.440 he didn't know what was happening to them, and he 326 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:16.119 felt a sense of survivor guilt which never left him. 327 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.839 And that permeates his films to some extent, the echoes 328 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.200 of the Holocaust and a number of his films and 329 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:23.880 the dark side of human nature. That's one of the 330 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:27.599 most important things about his work is that he was 331 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:31.200 a great comedy director, but he also dealt with He 332 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:36.079 made dark comedies, He made heavy dramas, He made black comedies, 333 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:39.880 all kinds of films. He mixed comedy and drama very well. 334 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:43.880 And I asked him in nineteen ninety five, I interviewed 335 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:46.319 him a lot, and I gave him the LA Critics 336 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:50.039 Career Achievement Award, and at the luncheon, I said, what 337 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:51.839 do you think is your best film? And he said 338 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.599 The Apartment And I said why and he said, because 339 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:56.920 it's my best mixture of comedy and drama, which is 340 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.480 what I was trying to land all my life. 341 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.119 And he got the Academy Award for Screenwriting with Diamond 342 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:05.680 on that film, right was it? 343 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:09.079 Nineteen sixty one, nineteen sixty They got the award in 344 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.519 sixty one with Il Diamond for writing it, and then 345 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:15.160 he also got Best Director and Best Picture as producer. 346 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.839 So he was the first person who got three Oscars 347 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.519 for one film for those three key categories, and eight 348 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:24.559 people have done it since. But he was a ground director, 349 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:27.039 so that was kind of the summit of his success. 350 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:30.880 Although his film Arwell Leduce in nineteen sixty three was 351 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:34.839 his most popular film in the box office, but after 352 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:38.319 that he kind of lost his connection with the audience. 353 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:40.680 He was out of sync with them. We can talk 354 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:44.480 about why. But I like his later films, but that 355 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.920 is kind of an argument I'm making in the book 356 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.319 his later films, or it's one of his most pertal periods, 357 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:53.359 unlike what a lot of people think. 358 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.519 Right, And he, I mean, he had an interesting arc 359 00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:59.960 because he was writing all the time and he meets 360 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.559 up with kind of the opposite, kind of a polar 361 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:06.480 opposite of him in this Bracket character. He's a wealthy, 362 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:10.599 blue blooded white Anglo Saxon Protestant. But they had a 363 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:14.200 productive twelve year writing career together. 364 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:17.559 Right, Yeah, they were a great team, as you say, 365 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:22.359 for those reasons seemed Wilder were very different. And Bracket's 366 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.440 diaries were published recently and they were a bit shocking 367 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:30.319 because it revealed a strong streak of anti Semitism in Bracket. 368 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.920 Being a wasp. He looked down on Wilder as the 369 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.720 European Jew, and he thought he was not as well 370 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:39.839 educated as him and Brackett went to Harvard, et cetera. 371 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.119 There was a real social disdain that he had, and 372 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.960 he didn't like some of Wilder's habits, like he was 373 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:50.200 kind of a playboy and he was a wisecracker and 374 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:52.079 he would pace up and down in the office. He 375 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:54.279 was a very restless man in his whole life, and 376 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:57.680 I think that's part of being an exile. Never sat down. 377 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:00.799 Jack Lemon said, there's a picture wild sitting down and 378 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:03.720 should be in the Smithsonian because it's probably very rare. 379 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:07.960 But Brackett didn't like the Wilder head. When he walked around, 380 00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:10.599 he would have a writing crop or a whip. He 381 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.480 would crack it and I drove Cracket crazy. And so 382 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:15.839 he makes all these comments from almost the beginning of 383 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.960 their partnership in nineteen thirty sixty, saying how can I 384 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.079 get get away from this guy? And then he never does. 385 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:24.519 It's sort of like a a bad marriage in a 386 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:27.039 sense where he keeps saying, I want to divorce my wife, 387 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:29.799 but the next day, oh, okay, back to work, you know. 388 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:32.279 But it's kind of like a Ying and yang. Because 389 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:37.799 he was more reserved, intellectual, wild There's more frenetic, better 390 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.599 kind of sense of wit. So it seems like they 391 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.559 needed each other because his language skills were never perfect, right, 392 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:45.880 Wilder's Yeah. 393 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:49.039 I interviewed Paul Diamond, who is Iel Diamond's son. Paul's 394 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.519 a screenwriter two and he said there was nobody more 395 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:56.119 witty than Wilder, but he always Wilder always felt a 396 00:22:56.119 --> 00:23:00.160 little insecure about his English because, as Paul pointed out, 397 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.720 his father, Il Diamond, who they called Is, came over 398 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:06.599 as a boy. I think he was nine from the Romania, 399 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:10.400 and he didn't know any English, but he learned quickly. 400 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.440 And kids who come over often pick up English very well. 401 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:16.480