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Speaker 1: we are celebrating my tenth year in podcasting and we're
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Speaker 1: in the Berkshires over the weekend of September twenty fifth.
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Speaker 2: Especially you Cepaine with the FBI. Today's Friday June. First
Speaker 2: time's approximately nine fifteen am by my watch. Following the
Speaker 2: will be a interview with Aeriel Keys at the FBI
Speaker 2: office and Anchorage with me, OBTFO, Jeff Bell, and AUSA
Speaker 2: Frank Russo.
Speaker 3: Is real? How do you know?
Speaker 4: All right?
Speaker 3: Isra?
Speaker 2: We're gonna run through kind of what's become our standard
Speaker 2: stuff here. You may know it better than I do.
Speaker 2: Let me know if I mess anything up there. I
Speaker 2: know we covered some of this stuff at the jail,
Speaker 2: but we're gonna run through it again quickly here. When
Speaker 2: we came over and picked you up this morning, did
Speaker 2: we interrupt a meeting with your attorney?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Okay, and you're here voluntarily?
Speaker 3: Is that correct? Yes?
Speaker 2: You understand we can't discuss anything to do with the
Speaker 2: Samantha Colding case, and if you do, then we'll have
Speaker 2: to stop the interview and we'll take you back to jail.
Speaker 2: You understand that.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Run through your Miranda rights. I know we've done this
Speaker 2: a number of times. Before we ask any questions, you
Speaker 2: must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent.
Speaker 2: Anything you say can be used against you in court.
Speaker 2: Do you have the right to talk to a lawyer?
Speaker 2: For advice before we ask any questions. You have the
Speaker 2: rights to have a lawyer with you during questioning if
Speaker 2: you cannot afford a lawyer, when be appointed for you
Speaker 2: before any questioning if you wish, And if you decide
Speaker 2: to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you have
Speaker 2: the right to stop answering at any time. Do you
Speaker 2: understand these rights as I've explained them to you.
Speaker 3: Yes, okay.
Speaker 2: And with that explanation in mind, are you willing to
Speaker 2: waive these rights and then talk to us here today?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: I know you've got at least one, possibly two stand
Speaker 2: by attorneys appointed in this matter, that being Rich Pertner
Speaker 2: and Jacqueline Walsh. Do you want either of those two
Speaker 2: attorneys or any other attorney present today?
Speaker 3: No? Okay.
Speaker 2: Are you on any medications or other substances?
Speaker 3: No? Okay?
Speaker 2: And are you having any difficulty understanding where you're at
Speaker 2: or what's going on?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Alrighty, I think that covers it unless I miss someone?
Speaker 3: No? All right?
Speaker 4: Okay, Israel just want a touch phase before we call
Speaker 4: Romant and on this is Jeff called and expressed that
Speaker 4: you know, obviously you're not prepared to talk about.
Speaker 5: The New York victim you very New York.
Speaker 4: Right, then you have some questions that you still you
Speaker 4: cleared up on your rant, right, Is there any questions
Speaker 4: that we can answer to you about that when we
Speaker 4: go into Vermont?
Speaker 6: No, Uh, the main issues I'm.
Speaker 7: Dealing with on h on other things that you know,
Speaker 7: the other victims that we haven't really talked about, is.
Speaker 6: Some things I was having.
Speaker 7: My investigators look into, and uh, like I'm still waiting
Speaker 7: to hear back on my status with the marshals. But
Speaker 7: that's yeah, it's all still.
Speaker 3: Pending at this time as far as I know, So Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I just I don't know.
Speaker 7: I am still trying to to uh to figure out
Speaker 7: if there's anything that can be done about any of that.
Speaker 3: I guess and then you know, I mean.
Speaker 7: One way or the other, it's gonna we'll be able
Speaker 7: to talk about that stuff. But I just want to
Speaker 7: find out what my options are as far as a
Speaker 7: couple other.
Speaker 5: Things first, A couple of things on that I understand.
Speaker 4: You know, you certainly have a right and can should
Speaker 4: consult with whatever you want on this. If there's anything
Speaker 4: you if you have any questions about things that we
Speaker 4: can sort of get answers to. We're happy to do that,
Speaker 4: especially like if you're saying there's something about the marshals
Speaker 4: and you know, we can obviously ask them whatever, you know,
Speaker 4: questions you.
Speaker 7: Have, Yeah, and I I mean, I don't I'm hesitant
Speaker 7: to go that route as far as like trading information
Speaker 7: for what what status they put me on, because I
Speaker 7: mean I will if I have to, if I think
Speaker 7: it'll work, But for now I'm waiting.
Speaker 6: To hear back.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I don't know there's anything we can
Speaker 4: do about that kind of stuff, quite frankly, because the
Speaker 4: marshals are very uh, you know, they're very territorial about security,
Speaker 4: as you probably can guess.
Speaker 5: And then it's even more it's a little more.
Speaker 4: Complicated than that because the marshals literally just rent space
Speaker 4: from the state right in the facility of the Department
Speaker 4: of Corrections. So in some senses they have their own rules,
Speaker 4: but then they also have to live in the Department
Speaker 4: of Corrections.
Speaker 5: Rules, and so there's a couple of entities that you know.
Speaker 6: That's the impression I'm getting.
Speaker 7: And I just I haven't heard back from all the
Speaker 7: parties involved yet, so I.
Speaker 4: Could just tell you just from you know, I have
Speaker 4: it dealt with innate situation. For that, it's a headache,
Speaker 4: and you know, there's really not a lot we can
Speaker 4: do about it. If they have real security concerns, they
Speaker 4: basically say butt outs of our business.
Speaker 5: So right, but you know, you never never can tell them.
Speaker 4: So if there's anything you need with you know, from
Speaker 4: muscle respect to that, we can certainly try to get answers.
Speaker 4: The second part of that is, yeah, I mean I
Speaker 4: understand what you're saying is, look, you just need to
Speaker 4: kind of dot your eyes across your t's on the
Speaker 4: New York thing, correct.
Speaker 3: Right, And you know, I think we'll make that.
Speaker 5: I can make that clear to Verman.
Speaker 4: I mean I told them basically when they relate to me,
Speaker 4: you didn't want to talk about anything else because they
Speaker 4: always want a status of where are you on other
Speaker 4: things because that's part of their letter. You know, they
Speaker 4: get a little bit antsy, so to speak, and they
Speaker 4: have their own reasons for that.
Speaker 5: Maybe they'll express it to you on the phone.
Speaker 4: So I don't want to speak for them, but you know,
Speaker 4: just just know that they obviously have some concerns in
Speaker 4: that regard. I can do my best to reassure them
Speaker 4: that it's you know, you're going to live up to
Speaker 4: your end of the deal, but you know, just sort
Speaker 4: of as a as a word of warning when we
Speaker 4: talk to them that may they make them up.
Speaker 7: I mean, I don't know, I don't know what they're
Speaker 7: going to ask I do have. I've been doing a
Speaker 7: lot of thinking about this, you know, since we discussed
Speaker 7: having this conference call with them. I have some concerns
Speaker 7: as to why they would even want to talk to
Speaker 7: me about the Courier case, considering that we've already had
Speaker 7: extensive interviews.
Speaker 6: On it, you know, with the FBI, and it's all
Speaker 6: been recorded.
Speaker 7: So I'm a little bit leary about what their motivations
Speaker 7: are and asking me additional questions and what what they
Speaker 7: plan to do with that information that they get.
Speaker 6: So I just I'm not I don't know.
Speaker 7: I know, we're dealing with like different jurisdiction issues here,
Speaker 7: and I don't know, like what what the rules are
Speaker 7: the rules game rules are going to be as far
Speaker 7: as the information that they get off of this conference
Speaker 7: call versus the information they got from you, you know,
Speaker 7: like secondhand information.
Speaker 3: So I mean, what I can tell you what let me.
Speaker 4: Let me tell you exactly, because I've had this conversation
Speaker 4: with them too, because you know, I'm concerned about that
Speaker 4: because we don't want to mess up things.
Speaker 6: We're working on other crimes, right.
Speaker 4: So the first thing, you know, they said is, look,
Speaker 4: you know, we have to give this house back to
Speaker 4: the Courier family because it's I don't know, somehow in
Speaker 4: foreclosure and they're pain on it and they've been maintaining
Speaker 4: it as a crime scene, and so that they're just
Speaker 4: incurring an enormous amount of debt that they're gonna it's
Speaker 4: going under water.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 4: So from that perspective, they want to you know, make
Speaker 4: sure I think primarily, like you know, they all want
Speaker 4: to have comfort that you're the right guy on this,
Speaker 4: right one.
Speaker 7: So they can release the house and they don't have
Speaker 7: to worry about continuing their investigation exactly.
Speaker 4: And hearing it from us is one thing, and you'll
Speaker 4: be listening to tape is another thing.
Speaker 5: But asking you know, questions yourselves.
Speaker 4: I think that that helps them number one too, you know,
Speaker 4: I mean, and their perspective is, you know, they don't
Speaker 4: know what's gonna happen with this, and you know, certainly
Speaker 4: if things go sideways and things go down the tubes,
Speaker 4: they want to just sort of make sure they've confirmed
Speaker 4: what you've said. You know, right now, they're on our
Speaker 4: side on this, I have no doubt about that. But
Speaker 4: you know, just in case they never, you know, they never,
Speaker 4: you know, can be careful enough. And number three, let
Speaker 4: me tell you this other thing I think I touched
Speaker 4: on at once is it's one thing you know, when
Speaker 4: I guess you hear about, oh, you know, this is
Speaker 4: what happened in your case, Like if these investigators they've
Speaker 4: been working it, they've been wondering, and it haunts them,
Speaker 4: you know, it does. I've had a case like that,
Speaker 4: always have the wonder, you know, what happened, And I
Speaker 4: think it helps them ebe psychologically to kind of ask
Speaker 4: the questions themselves that they've been wanting to ask since
Speaker 4: day one, since they've been trying to you know, be
Speaker 4: orize what happened here.
Speaker 5: So sometimes it's just like, you know.
Speaker 4: Hey, let's all play together type of thing. I think
Speaker 4: it helps keep them, you know, on board. When they
Speaker 4: get to ask these questions, they feel like they're engaged,
Speaker 4: they feel like they're more part of the team, which
Speaker 4: they are, you know, as long as we're going with
Speaker 4: that letter, right, I have no concerns about them. I've
Speaker 4: been talking to the attorney over there, Mary Morrisey. I
Speaker 4: talked to her right before we got in here. The
Speaker 4: people in that room, I think we can even clarify
Speaker 4: we're all going to be sort of bound by that letter.
Speaker 4: And you can make that clear if you want the outset,
Speaker 4: you figure out who's in the room. But everybody in there,
Speaker 4: we've been assured. You know that they're not going off
Speaker 4: the deep end. Otherwise we'd never be doing this.
Speaker 5: We don't want to.
Speaker 4: Screw up right.
Speaker 2: Anything that works.
Speaker 7: Yeah, No, I can understand like the house, the crime
Speaker 7: scene and releasing that that makes sense to me.
Speaker 6: The rest of it, I'm a little bit leery about, like.
Speaker 7: If there if they're going to ask me specific questions,
Speaker 7: they're basically going to have me recap the crime and
Speaker 7: the motive and you know what happened blow by blow.
Speaker 7: I don't I don't know if I want to get
Speaker 7: into all that. I because I don't know if I
Speaker 7: trust them with that information. But if they just want
Speaker 7: to if they just want confirmation that I'm the right guy,
Speaker 7: if they just want details on the house or the
Speaker 7: crime scene, like the house itself, without going into what
Speaker 7: happened in there and.
Speaker 4: The vehicle with another thing, you know, describe the vehicle
Speaker 4: that kind of thing like colors in the house.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It just kind of helps them, I think, and I
Speaker 4: know Officer Bell talk to them just to make sure
Speaker 4: because they give us an out lot. You know, we
Speaker 4: basically said, here's what we you know, we think is
Speaker 4: probably relevant for you, and here's what we think in
Speaker 4: Igra will be uncomfortable with. So it's not like they're
Speaker 4: just going off on their own right and doing this.
Speaker 4: And we told them quite frankly, hey, you know you
Speaker 4: can ask the questions all you want, you may not
Speaker 4: get all the answers.
Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 3: That's fine.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I just want to And we told them that
Speaker 6: you're pretty clear.
Speaker 9: If you don't want to answer something, you're pretty much
Speaker 9: gonna say yeah, okay, it's bad.
Speaker 3: So they don't have any expectations of you know.
Speaker 5: All right, doesn't mean they won't try.
Speaker 3: I mean we've tried, all right.
Speaker 6: The investigator just wants some owner have been his own investigation.
Speaker 6: As the investigator had heard all the interviews.
Speaker 2: He's listened to one I think in its entirety, which
Speaker 2: is one that we did several.
Speaker 3: Weeks more, just you and I, and.
Speaker 9: So they know the I don't think they're going to
Speaker 9: ask you detailed questions because they know them, okay, and some.
Speaker 5: Of the other things.
Speaker 4: And that's why if they're asking questions that are you know,
Speaker 4: the things you talked about before, they may not have
Speaker 4: heard the other ones because you talked about a bunch
Speaker 4: of different things, and those right there know what they
Speaker 4: have access to over there. I think I know they
Speaker 4: had access to this one because you know, that was
Speaker 4: sort of the time when we gotten.
Speaker 9: So they don't all they basically had to sit there
Speaker 9: with an FBI agent, and they would let them listen
Speaker 9: to that one.
Speaker 3: They don't have access to anything else.
Speaker 6: Right now, right, that's okay, all right, all right, makes sense.
Speaker 5: So who is Lieutenant Murdy? Is the guy who's gonna
Speaker 5: be asking the questions?
Speaker 3: We can call I think it's m U R T
Speaker 3: I E.
Speaker 6: Murdy so we can identify you. I don't it's a two.
Speaker 3: You got to do nine to one, yeah.
Speaker 5: Six five two.
Speaker 3: I guess you don't want to do nine one? Yeah,
Speaker 3: you do.
Speaker 5: Six five two three nine? Out there you go.
Speaker 10: You can marry more to the story's office. I'm not
Speaker 10: a aable to take a call right now. If you're
Speaker 10: a good message, I'll try to get back to as
Speaker 10: soon as I can. Thank you very much, and have
Speaker 10: a nice day.
Speaker 5: Call.
Speaker 3: Was gonna leave one saying okay, this was Ankridge. You
Speaker 3: missed our call.
Speaker 5: Okay, Hey, Mary's Frank.
Speaker 4: We're trying to call you on the desk line.
Speaker 5: Okay, we'll call right now.
Speaker 6: Okay, be that Lucky Morsey.
Speaker 4: Hey Mary, it's Frank Russo, Jeff Bell, Steve Payne, and
Speaker 4: the Israel Keys here.
Speaker 8: Thank you.
Speaker 10: I'm here in my office in Vermont with Lieutenant George Murdy,
Speaker 10: who is in charge of the Courier investigation for the
Speaker 10: Essex Police Department.
Speaker 4: Okay, and just to clarify one thing that mister Keys
Speaker 4: was concerned about before we got in here, I just
Speaker 4: wanted to confirm that, uh, basically, the uh you know,
Speaker 4: the letter that he saw last meeting, I mean that
Speaker 4: applies to Lieutenant Murdy too.
Speaker 5: You guys are all under one umbrella, so to speak.
Speaker 10: That is correct, the letter that I sent or the
Speaker 10: provided to you that I.
Speaker 8: Believe you've given to mister Keith.
Speaker 10: But what buyd Chittman County, including all of the departments
Speaker 10: within Chipman County. How our system works is that we
Speaker 10: don't have town prosecutors. We have a county prosecutor. So
Speaker 10: my office is the prosecutor.
Speaker 8: For chitten County.
Speaker 10: Is nobody else to file charges in Chindon County but
Speaker 10: us and the Attorney General's office and the limited circumstances.
Speaker 10: But they're not part of this investigation. They don't know
Speaker 10: and been unaware of this.
Speaker 4: Okay, fair enough, there's really all your questions before we
Speaker 4: get started.
Speaker 3: Now, I'm good.
Speaker 4: The one thing you should know is that obviously Lieutenant
Speaker 4: Murdy also has been spent some majority of his time
Speaker 4: at the dumb site. He could probably give you a
Speaker 4: better picture of what's going on there if you want.
Speaker 4: At the end, you know, he sort of knows what
Speaker 4: he's dealing with out.
Speaker 9: There, and maybe you guys just introduced yourself to him
Speaker 9: and let you know is let him know who you are.
Speaker 8: Yes, my name is Mary Morrisey. I'm a prosecutor in
Speaker 8: chitten And County.
Speaker 10: I'm the Chief Deputy.
Speaker 8: Of Major Crimes.
Speaker 10: I've been working on this case with Lieutenant Murdy since
Speaker 10: the morning that the Curviers were reported missing last June.
Speaker 10: So I've been a signed to this case since that
Speaker 10: day and I've been in the office for over taketeen years.
Speaker 3: Mister Keys, should I call you Israel or would you
Speaker 3: rather call you mister Keys Israel? Okay, and call me George.
Speaker 3: I'm a detective lieutenant at the Essex Police Department in
Speaker 3: charge of the Criminal Investigation Unit. Our police department is
Speaker 3: as you might imagine a small town. We have twenty
Speaker 3: seven officers in our police department. I've been there twenty
Speaker 3: eight years and frankly, I have never seen anything like this.
Speaker 3: So if I don't appear to have everything totally at
Speaker 3: my command. Please understand that I have been the case
Speaker 3: manager of the Courier case since June, and I have
Speaker 3: some questions regarding the house and the car that from
Speaker 3: what I understand and communicating with with Frank and uh
Speaker 3: and Jeff and Steve, they tell me that you're willing
Speaker 3: to help me corroborate some details and get some information
Speaker 3: from you that will let me know that obviously you
Speaker 3: are the person who has been in the house and
Speaker 3: in the car, and you know things that nobody else
Speaker 3: would know unless they have been in that position. Is
Speaker 3: that correct? Yes, that's correct. Okay, thank you. I mean,
Speaker 3: do you want to start out by hearing about commentry
Speaker 3: or are you interested in that? But yeah, that's yeah,
Speaker 3: we can start with that. Okay, let's see today will
Speaker 3: conclude our fourth week up there. They, as you probably know,
Speaker 3: they demolished the house that you had referred to in
Speaker 3: late October, and obviously it wasn't until April that that
Speaker 3: that we found out that this had been the I
Speaker 3: guess the the place where those people were left. So
Speaker 3: fortunately the landfilling commentry, which is gigantic, as kept they
Speaker 3: keep engineered records of where all their trash goes, and
Speaker 3: I mean, this is stuff I never thought of when
Speaker 3: I thought of dump. But they take aerial photographs, they
Speaker 3: do GPS so and the dates, the probable dates that
Speaker 3: that trash were dumped, had been recorded and placed in
Speaker 3: record as to a specific area where they would be. Now,
Speaker 3: having said that they keep good records, the area that's
Speaker 3: possible is at least the size of a football field,
Speaker 3: and it is. It is probably a good six feet deep.
Speaker 3: They mix in all sorts of nasty stuff to help
Speaker 3: decomposition in that area. And what we have to do
Speaker 3: is we have to rely on heavy equipment to dig
Speaker 3: all this stuff up, lay it out on a flat area,
Speaker 3: and we have to go through it with rakes basically,
Speaker 3: and it is it's a very very it's like an
Speaker 3: archaeological dig sort of, and it kind of is in
Speaker 3: a lot of ways. We had a forensic anthropologist who
Speaker 3: work for the Smithsonian Institute up there advising us on
Speaker 3: the best way to go about this. And we at
Speaker 3: this point todate, after four weeks, have probably cleared from
Speaker 3: like twenty to twenty five percent of that area. So,
Speaker 3: I mean, could could we find those people tomorrow? Well,
Speaker 3: I mean the next Monday. Yeah, but it could also
Speaker 3: take another six weeks. So you know, it's if you
Speaker 3: can get a picture. It's a it's not a great
Speaker 3: job to have, but you know, obviously it's something that
Speaker 3: needs to get done, all right.
Speaker 6: I appreciate that.
Speaker 3: Any any questions about that or anything else that before
Speaker 3: I start asking you about the house and stuff.
Speaker 7: How many people do you have working sorting through the
Speaker 7: trash that's dug up, and who are are they? Are
Speaker 7: they with your local police department or are they specifically
Speaker 7: trained for that or what. I'm just curious how many
Speaker 7: people know what's being searched for.
Speaker 3: And we we have people from from my agency. Probably
Speaker 3: at any given time, I have two people that I
Speaker 3: can put up there. Usually it's myself and another person,
Speaker 3: and have one person that I can rotate it. And
Speaker 3: now the Vermont State Police usually puts about five people
Speaker 3: into that mix, and the FBI puts in about twenty people.
Speaker 3: So we have probably twenty five people going in a
Speaker 3: line through the through the trash that's been laid out.
Speaker 3: What they are told at the briefing is that they
Speaker 3: are searching for the remains of the couriers that you know,
Speaker 3: that's that's basically it. So they're not given case details specifically.
Speaker 3: You know, occasionally some of the folks have been involved
Speaker 3: from the FBI and may have been involved in other
Speaker 3: aspects of the investigation, so they, you know, they might
Speaker 3: have more detail, but I think everything's being kept pretty quiet.
Speaker 3: My understanding from talking to Jeff and Steve is one
Speaker 3: of your major concerns about your name coming up in
Speaker 3: the media or anything to expose you to, you know,
Speaker 3: to the connection to this. So I think we're certainly
Speaker 3: well aware of that here in in our office, but
Speaker 3: I think the FBI is trying to keep a tight
Speaker 3: lid on that even in their own office as well.
Speaker 7: All Right, I appreciate that, and I don't have any
Speaker 7: other questions about it.
Speaker 3: Okay, Now, I did listen to your interview that was
Speaker 3: recorded on May eighth, where you go into most of
Speaker 3: the details about going into the house and and taking
Speaker 3: those people away and going up to the farmhouse. But
Speaker 3: you know, I guess, I guess every time you hear something,
Speaker 3: it sparks another four or five questions. So please bear
Speaker 3: with me if I ask something you feel you've already answered.
Speaker 3: Now you've you mentioned in your interview that you said
Speaker 3: you checked out the neighborhood where the house was prior
Speaker 3: to I guess, to gaining entry to that. Can you
Speaker 3: explain a little bit more about what you meant by
Speaker 3: checking checking out the neighborhood and was it in daylight
Speaker 3: or was it just before you you actually made entry.
Speaker 7: I was walking around the general neighborhood and getting a layout,
Speaker 7: and it was it was just prior. It was probably
Speaker 7: between the hours of about nine pm and the time
Speaker 7: that I actually went into the house.
Speaker 3: Okay, it so it sounds probably was just getting dark
Speaker 3: or was it dark at the time it was dark?
Speaker 3: Do you remember the weather?
Speaker 6: It was raining? It was raining really hard that night.
Speaker 3: Okay? Was it raining when you checked it out, because.
Speaker 7: I believe the at the time that I had chosen
Speaker 7: that neighborhood, the rain had stopped and it was just
Speaker 7: really damp out, really wet.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, And you know, knowing knowing that neighborhood,
Speaker 3: Uh it was. It's I don't know. I guess it
Speaker 3: was a little surprising to me how how little room
Speaker 3: uh you know, between houses. Uh does that concern you
Speaker 3: at all?
Speaker 7: Well, it did concern me. I I was after I
Speaker 7: had picked out that house. I stayed in the in
Speaker 7: the backyard for several hours, probably at least a couple hours,
Speaker 7: waiting till the rest of the neighborhood had gone to sleep.
Speaker 3: Okay, Now had you had you seen those two people
Speaker 3: at any time when you were checking out the neighborhood
Speaker 3: or anything any time before you entered the house?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 3: Okay, So so it's like when you were Okay, no
Speaker 3: means no, So I guess so, I guess you didn't
Speaker 3: see them at the like the pharmacy, or that the
Speaker 3: at home well actually wasn't a home depot a low
Speaker 3: but you know these are. They're some of their favorite
Speaker 3: places to go to. So I didn't know if you'd
Speaker 3: seen them then and connected them to the house.
Speaker 7: No, I it was the The house was picked on
Speaker 7: the basis of the design of the house, not on
Speaker 7: my assumption who might be inside.
Speaker 3: Really, Okay.
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Speaker 3: And I know you'd been in Vermont at least one
Speaker 3: other time. Uh, have you ever started formulating your plan
Speaker 3: the fact that back as early as in or is
Speaker 3: this something that I wondered if you were familiar with
Speaker 3: this neighborhood from the from your prior visit to Vermont.
Speaker 7: I had never been in that specific neighborhood before I was.
Speaker 7: I'm familiar with the entire area in general, but not
Speaker 7: not that neighborhood specifically.
Speaker 3: Now you have family or friends are in the ansect area. No, okay,
Speaker 3: let's see when you were in the backyard you mentioned
Speaker 3: a swimming pool. Are there other items in the backyard
Speaker 3: that you could tell me that that you remember that
Speaker 3: would corroborate that you knew his backyard.
Speaker 7: There was a storage shed in the back left hand
Speaker 7: corner of the yard.
Speaker 5: There was a.
Speaker 7: It was a pretty secluded backyard. I believe it had
Speaker 7: either an allier road access on the back and.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 7: Fairly well secluded from the neighbors on either side.
Speaker 3: There were I.
Speaker 7: Believe it was plastic patio furniture that was on the
Speaker 7: back deck. It was an above ground swimming pool, so
Speaker 7: they had a pretty elaborate deck set up and sliding
Speaker 7: glass door on the back and I used one of
Speaker 7: the plastic patio chairs to get into the garage window.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so you moved it around to the side
Speaker 3: of the house where the garage window is.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 7: There was a fan, a fan running for ventilation in
Speaker 7: that window, and that's how I got into the garage.
Speaker 3: Okay, Now do you remember what you did with that fan?
Speaker 3: Did you put it inside the garage or did you
Speaker 3: put it outside? Would you do with it? I believe
Speaker 3: I set it.
Speaker 7: I think I had turned it off and I set
Speaker 7: it inside, and then I believe when I left the house,
Speaker 7: I put it back in the window and pretty much
Speaker 7: everything set up the way it was when I found it.
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, now in the garage, Well, let me see
Speaker 3: if I got this straight. You were in the backyard
Speaker 3: for a couple of hours or or saw a fairly
Speaker 3: lengthy period of time, just kind of waiting to see
Speaker 3: what happens. At some point in your interview, you mentioned
Speaker 3: neighbors coming or a neighbor coming out. Was that when
Speaker 3: you were in the garage or when you were in
Speaker 3: the backyard.
Speaker 7: I was in the backyard, I believe when I when
Speaker 7: I started noticing that that neighbor was awaken, that they
Speaker 7: were coming out.
Speaker 3: Okay, now is it? Is it the same side of
Speaker 3: the street, on the house, on the same side as
Speaker 3: the garage, right? Yeah, okay, all right, gotcha, because I
Speaker 3: know they're Did you see anybody else in the neighborhood?
Speaker 7: There's just like the only person at the time that
Speaker 7: that was the only person I saw. They they had
Speaker 7: motion activated security lights, and they had a large dog
Speaker 7: that was being let out of the house from time
Speaker 7: to time, and I believe it was a Golden Retriever
Speaker 7: or something. And there was a younger, middle aged guy
Speaker 7: who was coming out to smoke every now and then.
Speaker 7: And I had already decided that I was going through
Speaker 7: the garage window, but I was concerned about him coming
Speaker 7: out when I was actually going in that that way,
Speaker 7: and so I remember I was I timed it so
Speaker 7: that I either went in through the garage, either right
Speaker 7: after he had gone back into the house after a
Speaker 7: smoke break, or I had timed it to where it
Speaker 7: seemed like he had gone to bed wasn't up anymore.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 7: I don't remember exactly when I first went.
Speaker 6: Into the garage, but.
Speaker 7: I remember once I was in the garage and unlocked
Speaker 7: the back door, I held off for quite a while
Speaker 7: before actually breaking into the house.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 7: I I unlocked the back door to the to the garage,
Speaker 7: the man door that went into the backyard, and after.
Speaker 3: That I was able to come and.
Speaker 7: Go from the garage without having to go through the window.
Speaker 3: Okay, uh, Now when you're in the garage, their cars
Speaker 3: they're right. Yeah. And did you notice anything unusual in
Speaker 3: the garage itself?
Speaker 7: No, I mean it was dark in the garage. It
Speaker 7: seemed like a pretty typical garage. There was, Yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 7: I had a light with me, but I wasn't. I
Speaker 7: wasn't using it that much because because there are still
Speaker 7: people up around and I.
Speaker 3: Don't know stuff. Could you see out the garage door, I.
Speaker 6: Don't remember if it had windows in it or not.
Speaker 3: And we we So you mentioned a crowbar that you
Speaker 3: took off a foot to smash the window leading into
Speaker 3: the house. Is that correct?
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was about a twenty four inch crowbar.
Speaker 7: I think it was hanging on the back wall of
Speaker 7: the garage, to the left of the man door.
Speaker 3: David, did you were there any other crowbars there that
Speaker 3: you recalled?
Speaker 7: It seems like there were a few other tools around.
Speaker 7: There may have been another crowbar, hammer or something.
Speaker 3: I don't know, all right, did you try to fry
Speaker 3: the door at all to gain entry or did you
Speaker 3: just use the window?
Speaker 7: Well, it had a storm It had a storm door
Speaker 7: that was locked on on the exterior of the of
Speaker 7: the standard door, and I was able to to pry
Speaker 7: the lock of the storm door with my knife, and
Speaker 7: I was I was thinking that I was actually surprised
Speaker 7: that the other door was locked as well, but it
Speaker 7: was a dead bolt lock, so I knew there wasn't
Speaker 7: There wasn't any way I was going to be able
Speaker 7: to to jimmy that lock without without breaking the windows.
Speaker 3: So okay, So so that's something a little new to
Speaker 3: me that that you I talked that when you got
Speaker 3: into the window in through the window into the garage,
Speaker 3: that you were able to just unlock the door going
Speaker 3: out into the backyard. Uh yeah, okay, So I don't
Speaker 3: understand which door you you pried with your knife. There
Speaker 3: was a storm door.
Speaker 6: Between the kitchen and the garage.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's the one year you were able to pry
Speaker 3: with the knight.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they had it locked.
Speaker 7: It was a a pretty low quality lock on those
Speaker 7: storm doors, gotcha.
Speaker 3: Okay, now I understand what you're telling me is you're
Speaker 3: able to pry the door on the doorno lock. And
Speaker 3: then it was also a dead full lock attached to that, right.
Speaker 7: And once I discovered that there was a there was
Speaker 7: a dead bolt lock on the on the kitchen door,
Speaker 7: and I knew I would have to break the window.
Speaker 7: I knew it was going to be loud, so I
Speaker 7: decided to wait another hour or two and to make
Speaker 7: sure that all the neighbors were asleeper inside.
Speaker 6: And and that's why I ended.
Speaker 7: Up unlocking the back door of the garage and just
Speaker 7: hanging out in the backyard for a while till I
Speaker 7: got a little bit later.
Speaker 3: Okay, And all right, so so you get into the house,
Speaker 3: you put the light on it like as you going
Speaker 3: into the house, or do you can you like I'm wondering,
Speaker 3: can you see things at that time or or do
Speaker 3: you just make a rush rout down the hallway.
Speaker 6: I had my headlamp on.
Speaker 3: You mentioned that you were wearing a mask.
Speaker 6: I probably was, though, just over my mouth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I'm just a little curious as to, I
Speaker 3: guess knowing what your intentions were, uh, why you felt
Speaker 3: you needed a mask.
Speaker 7: I I was mostly had the mask on for the
Speaker 7: time that I was in the backyard in case. I
Speaker 7: don't know, if someone spotted me or someone had cameras.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I just I just once I decided
Speaker 3: to see Now, can you tell me what you what
Speaker 3: you recalled about the house? Uh, just kind of describe
Speaker 3: you inside. Yeah, there was.
Speaker 7: Immediately through the door from the garage into the kitchen.
Speaker 7: I believe there was a refrigerator right there, and then
Speaker 7: you had to take a little bit of a left
Speaker 7: to go through the kitchen.
Speaker 3: And then.
Speaker 7: I knew it would I knew it would be pretty
Speaker 7: much a straight shot down the hallway to the bedroom.
Speaker 7: I already knew what bedroom they were in, so so
Speaker 7: I was only checking briefly, like looking left and right
Speaker 7: into the rooms as I passed them on the way
Speaker 7: to the bedroom to make sure there wasn't anybody else
Speaker 7: in those rooms. And I believe it was a three
Speaker 7: bedroom house.
Speaker 3: But when you when you bedroom, were they in.
Speaker 7: Well as you were if you're standing on the street
Speaker 7: facing their house, they were in the bedroom in the
Speaker 7: front right hand corner.
Speaker 3: Okay. You you mentioned that it's a three bedroom house,
Speaker 3: and you're you're correct. So were they both in the
Speaker 3: same bedroom? Yes? Okay, because it did after you you'd tied
Speaker 3: him up or incapacitated whatever. Uh you mentioned that you
Speaker 3: go through the house. Is it is that, Craig? Yes? Okay.
Speaker 3: Did you go into all the other rooms?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 3: And did you go downstairs?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 3: Okay? So you never even looked into the basement.
Speaker 6: I honestly, I was not even aware there was a basement.
Speaker 3: Okay. Do you recall going into the bathroom.
Speaker 7: I'm sure I went in the bathroom. I don't really
Speaker 7: remember anything.
Speaker 3: And now that I'm kind of recalling you to the bathroom,
Speaker 3: there anything stick out about it that it seemed a
Speaker 3: little unusual?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 3: No, you remember color by any chance? No? I don't.
Speaker 7: I don't remember the color of the bathroom. I believe
Speaker 7: the only reason I looked into the bathroom.
Speaker 3: Was I may have.
Speaker 7: I may have checked the medicine cabinet or something, but
Speaker 7: I don't I don't remember.
Speaker 3: In your interview you mentioned that they might have had
Speaker 3: some prescriptions like byke it In or a Percoset or
Speaker 3: something like that. I mean, does that ring a bell
Speaker 3: with you? Yeah? And you you take that, you take
Speaker 3: those medications.
Speaker 7: I don't take them personally. No, I took some from
Speaker 7: the house. Yes, would you.
Speaker 3: Would you sell them or what? What? I guess it
Speaker 3: doesn't really matter, But would you mind telling me? U? Really?
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 6: I guess my thought was that I might sell them.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 7: I don't really do that kind of stuff. I just
Speaker 7: grabbed them because I because they were there, And I
Speaker 7: mean I was, I was grabbing a lot of different stuff.
Speaker 3: So okay, and when you're I never mind that. Okay.
Speaker 3: So let's so they're in the they're in the fire bedroom,
Speaker 3: and so now there you mentioned that they were on
Speaker 3: the bed in your interview and they're I guess trusted
Speaker 3: up with with these cable ties. Yes, okay, And so
Speaker 3: at this point you feel comfortable to go through the
Speaker 3: rest of the house, and you mentioned grabbing some suitcases.
Speaker 3: Do you recall where you got those suitcases from?
Speaker 7: I believe they were in the bedroom directly joining the
Speaker 7: bedroom that they were sleeping in. I believe they were
Speaker 7: in a closet and there was a chest of drawers
Speaker 7: and a lot of other miscellaneous household items in that room.
Speaker 3: You remember there was one one item there that was
Speaker 3: fairly large, and I wondered if you remembered what that
Speaker 3: was next to the bed.
Speaker 6: Next to the bed in the room they were sleeping
Speaker 6: in the room. No, I don't. I remember it was
Speaker 6: a crowded bedroom.
Speaker 3: And okay, but tell me this. You mentioned finding military
Speaker 3: documents from Bill Currier. Is that is that the room
Speaker 3: you found him in? Yes, okay, and where were they?
Speaker 7: They weren't documents, but I think I did see some
Speaker 7: uniform patches or maybe some insignia and metals that were
Speaker 7: in chest of drawers there that I went through.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, all right, and that's the same you're
Speaker 3: telling me that's the same room where the suitcases were, right, yeah,
Speaker 3: I believe. So, Okay, Now, Lorraine's lingerie, that is where's that?
Speaker 7: I believe I got that from a couple of different
Speaker 7: spots in the house. I know I got some of
Speaker 7: it from that same chest of drawers in that adjoining.
Speaker 3: Bedroom, okay, anywhere else.
Speaker 7: Possibly from the room they were sleeping in as well.
Speaker 3: Okay, and you put those in the suitcase.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I put everything in the suitcases.
Speaker 3: All right. Let's see bear with me for a minute.
Speaker 3: There's a room, the room on the other side of
Speaker 3: the hall. Yeah, tell me what you remember about that room.
Speaker 7: There was a bird cage in it with a blanket
Speaker 7: over it. Was there a bed in there? I don't
Speaker 7: remember if there was a bed or a large desk. Again,
Speaker 7: it was a crowded room. It seems like there were
Speaker 7: quite a few quite a bit of stuff in it.
Speaker 7: And I just did I I remember, I got a
Speaker 7: quick idea of what might be in that room, and
Speaker 7: I didn't I didn't really go through it that much.
Speaker 7: I didn't really figure there would be anything in there.
Speaker 3: So, okay, so tell me this you're looking it tells me.
Speaker 3: I mean, you've already got this worked out in your head,
Speaker 3: and you know what you're looking for when you go
Speaker 3: into the house. So I mean, by by the time
Speaker 3: you go through these other places, have you already found
Speaker 3: what you wanted to find or are you exploring for
Speaker 3: things that might interest you or do you already know
Speaker 3: what you're what you're looking for?
Speaker 7: Well, everything else that I took was pretty inconsequential.
Speaker 6: Anything else I was looking for was I already.
Speaker 7: I already had an idea of the things I might
Speaker 7: find in the house, which is why I didn't really
Speaker 7: go through it that thoroughly. If I had had the
Speaker 7: impression that there were more things of value in the house,
Speaker 7: I would have gone through it more thoroughly. But everything
Speaker 7: I found pointed me to the direction that I wasn't
Speaker 7: going to find anything else of interest to me.
Speaker 6: So the main reason I was there for was, you know,
Speaker 6: was for them.
Speaker 3: So that's not yeah, okay, Now I know you're a carpenter.
Speaker 3: Do do you build houses? Yes? Okay, So I mean
Speaker 3: you know, basically style a house and what you can
Speaker 3: expect to find from a construction aspect and all that stuff.
Speaker 3: So it sounds to me like nothing in the house
Speaker 3: really surprised you.
Speaker 7: No, I don't remember seeing anything unusual. It seemed like
Speaker 7: a pretty typical ranch style house to me.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, And and in your interview you mentioned
Speaker 3: that you got jewelry that that wasn't didn't look like
Speaker 3: valuable jewelry. Uh? You you actually you got a couple
Speaker 3: of shell phones? Is that right? Yes? And what did
Speaker 3: you did you take? Like the guy's wallet or the
Speaker 3: woman's handbook or any pocketbook or anything like that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there was a large It seemed like all of
Speaker 7: their financial cards and I identifications and everything. It seems
Speaker 7: like all that was in one wallet.
Speaker 3: Okay, and that's the one that you took away with you.
Speaker 3: Did you ask them about how much money they had
Speaker 3: in the wallet and the pin numbers and all that?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 3: I did, okay? And what did they tell you?
Speaker 7: I got my main objective.
Speaker 6: My main concern wasn't with how much money they had
Speaker 6: in their accounts.
Speaker 3: It was to make sure that.
Speaker 7: They had given me the correct ten number for their card.
Speaker 3: Okay. Did you ever try to access that? No? I
Speaker 3: don't think so. To keep it, well, is that one
Speaker 3: of the things you got rid of? But was the
Speaker 3: New Hampshire or did you get rid of that in
Speaker 3: the dumpster at the place you were staying.
Speaker 7: No, the card, the card and the phones I didn't
Speaker 7: get rid of till New Hampshire.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, let's talk about their car. If if you
Speaker 3: don't mind, you need a break or anything. No, I'm fine,
Speaker 3: Am I you got? Are you okay with it so far? Yeah?
Speaker 6: This is fine? O.
Speaker 3: Good. So you know, obviously they weren't driving a Bentley.
Speaker 3: Uh you would you mentioned that it's a it's a
Speaker 3: Saturn and two door four door?
Speaker 6: I believe it was a four door Sedan.
Speaker 3: Okay, And I think you mentioned accessing the trunk. So
Speaker 3: did you do any preparation to the car before you
Speaker 3: put them in or had you already checked out the car? Yeah?
Speaker 6: I had.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I checked out the car pretty thoroughly before I
Speaker 7: even decided to break into the house.
Speaker 3: Okay, Now, did you adjust seats or anything like that?
Speaker 3: I'm assuming that you knew where you wanted to put
Speaker 3: the woman where you wanted to put the guy.
Speaker 6: Yes, did you?
Speaker 3: Did you? Did you adjust the seats to to make
Speaker 3: that happen? Or yeah?
Speaker 6: I did have to adjust the seats I think.
Speaker 3: Okay. And so it's these people are tied up, but
Speaker 3: I'm assuming hands and feet. Do you cut their feet
Speaker 3: loose or something to make it so they can walk
Speaker 3: out to the car.
Speaker 7: Their feet weren't tied when I walked them out to
Speaker 7: the car.
Speaker 3: Now, Okay? Did they have anything on their feet?
Speaker 7: Not until I had them in the car.
Speaker 3: Okay, No, I don't mean tying. My thought is you
Speaker 3: broke the window to get into that house, and now
Speaker 3: you're going to take these folks out to the car.
Speaker 3: Did they just walk barefoot across this broken glass? No?
Speaker 6: I think I let them put on some slippers.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right? And so I mean, am I corrected
Speaker 3: that their feet were tied up and that you must
Speaker 3: have had to untie them to enable them to walk
Speaker 3: to the car.
Speaker 6: No, their feet. I don't think their feet were ever
Speaker 6: tied when they were on the bed.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, just just their arms.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there was.
Speaker 3: I went through the house really fast.
Speaker 7: I I would go from room to room and I
Speaker 7: got once I had them tied up, I went through
Speaker 7: the house pretty quickly to make sure I hadn't missed anybody.
Speaker 3: And now you you mentioned taking the lingerie away any
Speaker 3: other items like makeup or stuff like that. Did you
Speaker 3: did you take any of that stuff?
Speaker 6: There were?
Speaker 7: I mean there there was quite a bit of thing,
Speaker 7: quite a few things I threw into the suitcases.
Speaker 3: I I you know, I guess I don't know any
Speaker 3: other way to ask questions, but to be to be blunt,
Speaker 3: I'm assuming that that those particular items play into what
Speaker 3: what your intentions are towards towards these folks sexually. Uh,
Speaker 3: when when you get to where you want to go?
Speaker 3: Am I? Am I on track with that? Or are
Speaker 3: these just souvenirs? No?
Speaker 6: That's that's pretty much the gist of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, all right? Uh do you mind if I
Speaker 3: just I'm kind of curious. Do you dress Lorraine and
Speaker 3: in her lingerie or do you have some other purpose
Speaker 3: for it? Uh? I don't know if I want to
Speaker 3: go into that. All right, fair enough? Hey, any anything
Speaker 3: you want to tell me about is is great. So
Speaker 3: we'll move on. Thinking about the car. You you get
Speaker 3: into the car, you put them in the car. You
Speaker 3: get into the car, and in your interview you say
Speaker 3: you drive to the place you're staying at where you
Speaker 3: get some stuff out of your car, and then you
Speaker 3: get back into their car. Then you say that you
Speaker 3: drive up to that abandoned house, you take them out
Speaker 3: of the car, and then whenever you want, it's morning,
Speaker 3: when you're finished, you get back in their car. You
Speaker 3: drive back down to the low parking lot. Am I correct?
Speaker 3: So far, yes, okay. And then you go to the
Speaker 3: hotel in the car that you've rented, and then you
Speaker 3: come back and you get in that car again and
Speaker 3: drive up group fifteen and you're talking about the looking
Speaker 3: at banks and stuff like that, and then you turn
Speaker 3: around and you drive back down and you go back
Speaker 3: to your car after leaving that car in the apartment complex.
Speaker 3: So I have all that right, Yes, okay. So in
Speaker 3: most four times that you were getting out of that car,
Speaker 3: is there any chance that you ever touched anything in
Speaker 3: the car with an ungloved hand, not that I recall it.
Speaker 3: Is it possible? I mean, because I mean you're in
Speaker 3: and out of a car a lot, and I just
Speaker 3: wonder if it's possible that we might be able to
Speaker 3: lift a fingerprint or access some DNA or something like
Speaker 3: that from the car there.
Speaker 6: If I left to print on that car there, that
Speaker 6: would be.
Speaker 7: A pretty serious oversight on my part. I had gloves
Speaker 7: on the entire time. I was concerned about DNA.
Speaker 6: The car.
Speaker 7: There is a good possibility if there's fairly long dark
Speaker 7: hair that you.
Speaker 6: Found on the seat and there's a possible DNA match
Speaker 6: to me.
Speaker 7: But other than that, I seriously doubt you're gonna find
Speaker 7: DNA or fingerprints anywhere.
Speaker 3: What kinde of gloves do you wear when you're.
Speaker 6: When you're doing this, I usually wear leather baseball gloves.
Speaker 3: Okay, get rubber gloves too.
Speaker 7: No, I usually don't wear what rubber gloves?
Speaker 3: Do you recall? I mean you might have been perspiring
Speaker 3: or something like that. Is it is that possible? Oh?
Speaker 7: Yeah, that was a concern I had, especially at their house,
Speaker 7: because my gloves were wet, and you know, I was sweating,
Speaker 7: and it's possible some of my perspiration got through the
Speaker 7: gloves and got.
Speaker 3: On I who knows how many items.
Speaker 6: But I wasn't. I wasn't overly concerned about that.
Speaker 3: All right, Either did you or drink or anything did
Speaker 3: you use there? Did you go into the refrigerator while
Speaker 3: you're at the house.
Speaker 6: I may have looked in the refrigerator.
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't know.
Speaker 6: I didn't.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I know they were pretty big beer drinkers,
Speaker 3: so I didn't know if you found any bear anything
Speaker 3: like Dad and the refrigerator and just curious. Okay, So
Speaker 3: you mentioned that you've adjusted seats to put up in
Speaker 3: the car. Did you find that you had to adjust
Speaker 3: the driver's seat to get in it. Yeah. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: how tall you? About? Six two? Okay? Did you get
Speaker 3: a sense for who drove the car last? By the
Speaker 3: by the seat? Yeah, and who'd you think it was?
Speaker 7: Well, it's see, I'm guessing it was her, missus Curry
Speaker 7: that did most of the driving for a number of reasons.
Speaker 3: Yeah what what reasons are that? Uh? Well, from what
Speaker 3: I think, that's what they told me. But yeah, he.
Speaker 7: Wasn't He wasn't in any shape to drive. It seemed
Speaker 7: like so you.
Speaker 3: You noticed anything of peculiar about either of them as
Speaker 3: they walked or moved.
Speaker 7: Around, aside from the now I mean, aside from the
Speaker 7: fact that they weren't in the best of shape.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know either along with a lamp
Speaker 3: for anything like that. I know, I know you. I
Speaker 3: know you mentioned that Bill is a pretty heavy guy.
Speaker 3: Anything else about him that that led you to the
Speaker 3: conclusion that he wasn't in great shape? Well, I knew.
Speaker 7: I knew he had diabetes, and they told me that
Speaker 7: after I shortly after we left their house.
Speaker 3: Okay, Uh, give me a second, I'm fumbling through my
Speaker 3: notes to find the important questions to ask you now
Speaker 3: tell me about this abandoned farmhouse. And I know in
Speaker 3: the interview you described of quite plainly how you how
Speaker 3: you get the guy into the basement through the kind
Speaker 3: of the storm door that that leads down into the basement.
Speaker 3: Is that Craig? Yes? Okay? Deep. And once he's the
Speaker 3: tied up in the basement, you after your little chase
Speaker 3: with the with the woman there? Uh, do you bring
Speaker 3: her in the same door or a different door? No?
Speaker 6: I brought her in through the front door, okay.
Speaker 3: And can you describe the front of that particular house.
Speaker 3: There was a.
Speaker 7: It was either a screen din or a Glasston porch, about.
Speaker 6: Probably six by twelve or six by twenty. On the
Speaker 6: front of the house.
Speaker 7: There was a I believe a screen door you had
Speaker 7: to go through to get into the porch area. And
Speaker 7: then there was a standard entry door that led into
Speaker 7: the living room of the of the old portion of
Speaker 7: the farmhouse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, Now when you were scoping that place out earlier,
Speaker 3: did you go inside it and go through it? I did? Okay,
Speaker 3: so you knew what you knew exactly where where things
Speaker 3: were and where you wanted to place them and all
Speaker 3: that stuff. I one thing I didn't get Now with her,
Speaker 3: you bring her in the front door. There's an upstairs there, right, Yes,
Speaker 3: you go stairs? Are you on that like ground floor? No?
Speaker 6: I took her upstairs, okay?
Speaker 3: And then and what's what's up there? Furnishing wise or anything?
Speaker 7: There was Most of the interior doors were off the hinges.
Speaker 3: There was.
Speaker 7: I think there were some old heating appliances, either boilers
Speaker 7: or something in the rooms, and.
Speaker 6: There were several old mattresses upstairs.
Speaker 7: But for the most part that was it just larger
Speaker 7: pieces of furniture was the main thing that was in
Speaker 7: the house. Most of the household items had been removed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and not in the basement, but on the ground
Speaker 3: floor where the couch or anything.
Speaker 7: There was a couch in the living room, there was
Speaker 7: maybe a recliner, and there was an old freestand be
Speaker 7: wooden TV.
Speaker 3: Okay, eighteen sixties. So you're a they ever concern you that,
Speaker 3: I mean, there's two floors that that separate you between
Speaker 3: between him and her. It might, you know, it would
Speaker 3: seem like a lot of stuff could be going on
Speaker 3: when you're upstairs that that you don't you don't know
Speaker 3: about it, and the other way around. When you're downstairs,
Speaker 3: are you Are you that confident in how secure you
Speaker 3: have these people? Yeah? It was, well that's things didn't
Speaker 3: go as exactly as planned. So yeah, I kind of
Speaker 3: gathered that of I wish at some point you'd tell
Speaker 3: me what exactly is planned meant? But you know that's
Speaker 3: any any interested in telling me that? No.
Speaker 7: All I can say is that, you know, I had
Speaker 7: specific things that I wanted to happen in mind, and.
Speaker 3: Because of.
Speaker 7: Actions taken by them, there were you know, it just
Speaker 7: it's just frustrated me to the point where I.
Speaker 5: You know, I still.
Speaker 7: I still was going to go through with it, but
Speaker 7: I was, I just didn't. It didn't go exactly as
Speaker 7: I had planned.
Speaker 3: Okay, And you had plans for both of them you
Speaker 3: mentioned that, Is that correct? Like I mean, he wasn't
Speaker 3: just like collateral just being there. You had plans for
Speaker 3: him as well. Yeah. Okay. Now, when when you're talking
Speaker 3: about raving the woman, you mentioned going outside after a
Speaker 3: while and then coming back in again. Are you like
Speaker 3: a smoker. Do you go out and smoke or believe
Speaker 3: any cigarettes? Or I know he smoked cigars because they
Speaker 3: talked about you having cigar breaks? Is that what you
Speaker 3: do when you step outside or are you just getting
Speaker 3: some her No, that's what I was doing. You were smoking? Yeah,
Speaker 3: did you take the bunch with you?
Speaker 7: Or well get there, there isn't there isn't really a
Speaker 7: butt I was. I I smoke them down to where
Speaker 7: there's not much left, and then I step on them,
Speaker 7: so they look like just another pile of leaves on
Speaker 7: the ground.
Speaker 3: All right, And so are we talking cigarettes just at
Speaker 3: the at the deal or it's a cigar, it's it's
Speaker 3: all tobacco, it's not.
Speaker 7: I think I smoked a couple of them in their
Speaker 7: backyard too, And okay.
Speaker 3: All right, well yeah, and you'd say they're smoked down
Speaker 3: so fine that they would be almost impossible to even
Speaker 3: recognize as have been part of a cigar.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean once once you step on them, it's
Speaker 7: just tobacco leaves. So once you step on them, and
Speaker 7: they're not in the shape of a cigar anymore, they
Speaker 7: look just like any other okay, bit of leaves or
Speaker 7: vegetation you might step on.
Speaker 3: All right, feel free to interject if you think there's
Speaker 3: anything else I need to know that I'm not asking.
Speaker 6: It sounds like you've already heard the major interviews.
Speaker 3: So well, you you talked about having a glog hand.
Speaker 7: Gun with you, right, it was a Smithson lesson, but yeah.
Speaker 3: Okay it is it a semi forty count Yeah? Okay?
Speaker 3: What happened to that? I mean, I know what happened
Speaker 3: to the ten twenty two, and I know what happened
Speaker 3: to the gun you took away from the house, But
Speaker 3: I don't know about the smid the western semi.
Speaker 7: Smith The lesson was I was actually arrested with that
Speaker 7: in Texas.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, all right? Did it? Okay? You say that
Speaker 3: you hit the guy with a shovel a few times downstairs?
Speaker 3: Is that your shovel? Is it a shovel that was
Speaker 3: in a basement or and did you take that away?
Speaker 6: No, it was a shovel that was already in the house,
Speaker 6: and I didn't take it away. I think I actually
Speaker 6: left it in the basement.
Speaker 3: There have been any blood on it or anything? No? Okay,
Speaker 3: all right, let's see. Let me back up a second.
Speaker 3: Is there is there anything anything else about their house
Speaker 3: that you remember that maybe I forgot to ask you about.
Speaker 6: Sure, there is. I don't really know what you're looking for, though.
Speaker 3: It strikes you and like, on, jeez, why And he
Speaker 3: asked me that no, you remember, well I already asked
Speaker 3: you about the garage. You said you didn't see too much,
Speaker 3: so and he didn't go in the basement, right, No, okay,
Speaker 3: anything else that you mentioned windows upstairs? And uh yeah,
Speaker 3: he actually mentioned seeing a cop car down the road.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there was.
Speaker 7: I believe there was a business of some sort directly
Speaker 7: pretty much directly across the road from the farmhouse.
Speaker 6: And then further down.
Speaker 7: To the right, it seems like there was either uh yeah,
Speaker 7: it seems like it was another farmhouse and there was
Speaker 7: I remember there was.
Speaker 3: A it looked like a.
Speaker 7: Sheriff's car. I think it was a sheriff's car.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 7: I don't know if he lived there or what the
Speaker 7: other side of the road, right, yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah,
Speaker 7: I don't think it was a sheriff, but I actually
Speaker 7: I think it.
Speaker 3: Was a local cop from another town who took the
Speaker 3: car home. But but yeah, you're right, there was a
Speaker 3: there was another cop living down the road. You were
Speaker 3: there's something about blocking out the windows upstairs where where
Speaker 3: the woman was, is it? Yeah?
Speaker 7: I had I took a couple of the doors and
Speaker 7: maybe a mattress and put him over the windows so
Speaker 7: that people wouldn't.
Speaker 3: See the light. And she she was on a mattress.
Speaker 3: That one of the mattresses that it was laying on
Speaker 3: the floor when you checked the place out, Yeah, you
Speaker 3: cover it with anything that you brought with you or
Speaker 3: just now that old booty mattress that was there.
Speaker 6: That was pretty good, chick.
Speaker 3: Really, Yeah, it looked like anybody has been like squatting
Speaker 3: hanging out in there recently.
Speaker 7: No, Well, maybe there was one portion of the house,
Speaker 7: the back portion of the house had an addition on it,
Speaker 7: and it was pretty clearly the last area that had
Speaker 7: been lived in. They had a makeshift kitchen set up
Speaker 7: and seems like there were even still some appliances in.
Speaker 6: That portion of the house. So yeah, maybe they were squatters.
Speaker 6: I don't know, it looked it looked.
Speaker 3: More like.
Speaker 7: Somebody who was just living in that section because the
Speaker 7: rest of the house wasn't that livable anymore.
Speaker 3: So, okay, all right, when you finally get out of
Speaker 3: decide to get out of town, and you're you're going
Speaker 3: to Maine, how do you get there? I mean, I
Speaker 3: know how I usually go to Maine and it's by
Speaker 3: getting on eighty nine and heading south. Is that how
Speaker 3: you go or do you go a different way? No?
Speaker 6: I think I went the northern route on the way there.
Speaker 3: Okay. And you mentioned the state or state forest in
Speaker 3: New Hampshire where you got out. Was that off a
Speaker 3: local road or was that off the the interstate?
Speaker 6: I think that was off of a highway.
Speaker 7: I don't remember if honestly, I don't remember if that
Speaker 7: was an interstate or not.
Speaker 6: I would have to look at them out.
Speaker 3: All right, Okay, I'm winding down here, so just bear
Speaker 3: with me a couple more minutes. Okay.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Well he's looking at his questions, is it okay?
Speaker 8: I asked your questions.
Speaker 10: Yeah, you tell me you had some conversation with the
Speaker 10: couriers that you talked about them telling you that he
Speaker 10: was a diabetic, that she was the one who primarily
Speaker 10: did the driving. I think you said in your Maid's
Speaker 10: interview that they he talked.
Speaker 8: To you about his military history or background.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right.
Speaker 8: Can you remember any.
Speaker 10: Other specific things that you spoke with them about.
Speaker 7: Well, obviously they're I mean concern was what was going
Speaker 7: on at the time, so that was.
Speaker 6: Primarily what we were talking about.
Speaker 8: What kind of questions Were they asking.
Speaker 6: You what's going on?
Speaker 8: And did you what was your answer to them?
Speaker 7: I told them it was kidnapped for ransom.
Speaker 10: Did they talk to you anything about their own financial
Speaker 10: history when you.
Speaker 8: Mentioned that that might be your motive?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 8: What did they tell you?
Speaker 7: They told me they didn't come from money.
Speaker 8: Did they tell you anything about like the touch of jobs.
Speaker 6: They did or yeah?
Speaker 7: I asked them all the questions and do you recall
Speaker 7: what their answers were? She told me she worked in
Speaker 7: a hospital, and I believe she said he worked at
Speaker 7: a animal hospital or something.
Speaker 10: Okay, Did they tell you anything about their specific family history,
Speaker 10: whether or not they had children, whether or not they had.
Speaker 8: You know this kidnapped for ransom thing?
Speaker 10: Did you did you explore it further with them in
Speaker 10: terms of who you would be contacting for the ransom money?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 10: Can you tell me what you recall about that part
Speaker 10: of the conversation.
Speaker 7: I was asking them where their family primarily lived and
Speaker 7: how many members there were around.
Speaker 10: And did do you recall what they said?
Speaker 7: They told me they had recently moved to the area
Speaker 7: from Winooski, and that there had several family members in
Speaker 7: the areas.
Speaker 3: Still huh, whether or not they had children.
Speaker 7: It seems like I did ask them if they had children,
Speaker 7: and I believe they had said no.
Speaker 10: Okay, do you recall anything else specifically from the house
Speaker 10: that you remember seeing, either in the kitchen, whether it
Speaker 10: was photographs or wall hangings, like fixtures, anything that you
Speaker 10: can recall distinctively.
Speaker 6: Nothing distinctive.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 7: Seems like for the most part, it was pretty standard furnishings,
Speaker 7: and I don't remember seeing anything that really stood out
Speaker 7: to me. I do remember they had fairly new televisions.
Speaker 7: It seemed like in every room, like large flat screen
Speaker 7: TVs or something.
Speaker 8: So, Okay, what about the kitchen.
Speaker 10: Did you notice any about the appliances, whether or not
Speaker 10: it was like a newer kitchen an older kitchen.
Speaker 6: I don't recall. I don't. Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't
Speaker 6: really focused on that.
Speaker 3: I guess, Okay, all right. I had a couple more
Speaker 3: questions for Israel about the car. Okay, isn't the trunk
Speaker 3: of the car there's a black trash bag when when
Speaker 3: we recovered the car, do you recall if that's if
Speaker 3: that's something you brought or it was, or it was
Speaker 3: something that was in the car when you got it.
Speaker 3: It depends how big of a trash bag it is,
Speaker 3: I guess. Okay, so you don't have a specific recollection
Speaker 3: of leaving a trash bag in the trunk.
Speaker 7: I would be surprised if I had left a trash bag.
Speaker 7: I it's possible that I did, But.
Speaker 3: If you did, it would have been a newer one.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it would have been fresh off of the role.
Speaker 7: And like I said, there were very large trash bags,
Speaker 7: so they're pretty distinctive.
Speaker 3: Were they heavy duty they were, I believe on tractor
Speaker 3: bag or were they just big?
Speaker 6: I think they were two or three milf.
Speaker 7: They weren't.
Speaker 6: They weren't super heavy duty, they were just very large.
Speaker 3: Okay. Did you get in led by any kids?
Speaker 6: I don't think so.
Speaker 3: All right, there were uh you mentioned that the car
Speaker 3: overheated or saw uh cooling containers in the car? Is
Speaker 3: that is that right?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: There was.
Speaker 7: When I got in the car to put the seat back,
Speaker 7: it wouldn't go back all the way. I think there
Speaker 7: were a couple of gallons of ana freeze.
Speaker 3: Okay, And did you remember anything else that was in
Speaker 3: the car.
Speaker 7: There was like some seat cushions, like lower back support,
Speaker 7: cushions and something like that.
Speaker 3: A pillow. Do you do you recall a pillow being
Speaker 3: in the car? Yeah?
Speaker 7: Yeah, there were several several pillows are back like I say,
Speaker 7: like back support or something.
Speaker 3: You didn't put it in the car, like I mean,
Speaker 3: when that wasn't part of stuff you took away from
Speaker 3: the house that was already.
Speaker 7: In the car, right, that was that was something that
Speaker 7: they you could tell they habitually drove with those things.
Speaker 3: Yeah. One one thing we did notice that we took.
Speaker 3: We took from the car machine strange. It looked like
Speaker 3: a couple of packages of women's underwear that was I
Speaker 3: look not open to me. I don't know, is it.
Speaker 3: Do you recall that It's possible I don't.
Speaker 7: I don't know if they were if it was in
Speaker 7: the trunk. It's possible they fell out of the suitcase
Speaker 7: or something. But I mean unless no, I don't recall
Speaker 7: putting those in there.
Speaker 3: Now, okay, all right? And you don't recall seeing them
Speaker 3: in there though, just as you were checking out the car.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it seems like there was a bag of something
Speaker 7: in there. I don't remember. Like I said, I checked
Speaker 7: out the car. I was only I was looking for
Speaker 7: specific things when I checked out the car, So anything
Speaker 7: else inconsequential I probably just pushed under the seat or something.
Speaker 3: Okay, what were you looking for, like there's a value
Speaker 3: or no?
Speaker 6: I was trying to figure out who lived in the house.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, So most of your intelligence gathering about
Speaker 3: the house and the car and all that stuff is
Speaker 3: to determine who lives in the house, Am I right there? Yeah?
Speaker 7: I just wanted to know what to expect when I
Speaker 7: when I went in, I was I was looking in
Speaker 7: the car for for dog hair, And it's trying to
Speaker 7: find out the ages and how many people there might
Speaker 7: be living in the house by going through all the
Speaker 7: paperwork in the car things like that.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I mean that that makes sense to me.
Speaker 3: That's similar to some of the stuff we do when
Speaker 3: we're looking to the gain entry to a house. Now
Speaker 3: I must, But apart from who's going to be in
Speaker 3: the house when you get in there, I mean, does
Speaker 3: that really matter to you?
Speaker 7: Uh?
Speaker 3: Because I mean, do you have like a plan A
Speaker 3: if it's if it's uh, you know what you expected
Speaker 3: me and a woman and it's but but it doesn't
Speaker 3: matter if it's a you know, three people or or
Speaker 3: two people or you know, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Would you would you have, like, if you saw something
Speaker 3: that you didn't expect to see, would you have walked
Speaker 3: away from that place and have gone somewhere else?
Speaker 7: If there had been three or four people in the house,
Speaker 7: then I would have just tied them up and left.
Speaker 3: Okay. And you got feelings about kids, I mean, are
Speaker 3: they like something you want to stay away from? Yeah?
Speaker 6: I try, yeah, try to avoid it.
Speaker 7: I mean, I I am already had pretty strong suspicions
Speaker 7: that if there were gonna be kids there, there were
Speaker 7: probably grandkids or something. And I didn't think that was
Speaker 7: very likely. Like I say, I checked out the garage
Speaker 7: and the backyard and I was I was looking for
Speaker 7: signs of that.
Speaker 3: I didn't see anything. So all right, okay, is there
Speaker 3: Do you have any questions for me right now? No?
Speaker 3: All right, I'm trying to I'm trying to think for
Speaker 3: a minute, if you know, because I'm probably never going
Speaker 3: to get a chance to do this again. If there's
Speaker 3: anything else that that I want to ask you, But
Speaker 3: I mean there are millions of things I want to
Speaker 3: ask you. But you know, I understand the ground rules,
Speaker 3: and I and I respect, you know, at least the
Speaker 3: level of cooperation I'm getting from it now. Uh, do
Speaker 3: you mind if I ask you about why why Vermont
Speaker 3: and why why es ex Junction? It just seems kind
Speaker 3: of off the beaten path from from you know, with
Speaker 3: your the areas you've been to, m.
Speaker 6: Well, off the beaten path, that's kind of like what
Speaker 6: I like to do.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I was. I was with with the
Speaker 3: recovery team at the reservoir and that, I mean, it's
Speaker 3: a beautiful area certainly, that's off the beaten path about
Speaker 3: as far as you can go. You mentioned that your
Speaker 3: I think your plan was to say that you would
Speaker 3: come to the area to do some fishing. Is it
Speaker 3: is that right?
Speaker 7: Well, not so much a plant that is actually what
Speaker 7: I was doing. I was, I was, I was fishing.
Speaker 7: I mean, I was fishing along the I don't know
Speaker 7: what you call it, like there's a there's a breakwater
Speaker 7: that goes out into Lake Champlain.
Speaker 6: I think it was. I was there right after the flooding.
Speaker 7: There was a big flood and there was a lot
Speaker 7: of damage that was done to the parks along the
Speaker 7: water waterways there. So I was I was driving around
Speaker 7: out there looking at all that all the flooded campgrounds
Speaker 7: and damaged trees, and there were quite a few people fishing.
Speaker 7: So I stopped and asked them what they were, what
Speaker 7: they were fishing for and if they had any luck, and.
Speaker 6: Decided that I was going to stop.
Speaker 7: And my originally I wasn't even planning on staying in Vermont.
Speaker 7: I was, you know, planning on going on to New
Speaker 7: Hampshire and maybe staying there for a.
Speaker 3: Couple of days. And but yeah, I just I just decided.
Speaker 7: I wanted to try fishing there, and I already had
Speaker 7: any fishing gear.
Speaker 3: With me, not really, No, did you have a license?
Speaker 10: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I did, I did get I.
Speaker 7: Think I got a three day license or something.
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, I don't want to I don't want you
Speaker 3: to get jumped up for fishing without a license.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there after me for poaching already.
Speaker 3: So I mean that's a that's a serious offense at Vermont. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But uh anyway, Uh so so you're I mean, are
Speaker 3: there are other areas in Vermont that that you're that
Speaker 3: you are familiar with or is it just because this
Speaker 3: is off the ferry route kind of that that you
Speaker 3: you decided to stay in Essex. No, I've been.
Speaker 7: I've been all through Vermont various occasions. I don't I
Speaker 7: don't always stay in like Burlington area. It's it's kind
Speaker 7: of on the way to New York though, from route
Speaker 7: I take.
Speaker 3: So okay, and oh, I just thought of a question.
Speaker 3: Do you eat a restaurants when you're in town?
Speaker 6: Not usually?
Speaker 3: Did do you recall when you were this visit here
Speaker 3: in in June if you eated any restaurants or go
Speaker 3: through McDonald's or what do you do about food?
Speaker 7: I don't remember on that last trip, but it seems
Speaker 7: like I'm sure I did eat a restaurant at some point.
Speaker 3: It must not have been very memorable. Sorry, yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: Well that's all right. I just give me one more
Speaker 3: thing to to look at. All right. Like I said,
Speaker 3: I'm winding down here, I'm spinning my wheels, trying to
Speaker 3: make every advantage of Let.
Speaker 4: Me ask you a quick questions, is Frank, is really
Speaker 4: do you bring your cigars with you and you buy
Speaker 4: them there?
Speaker 6: I usually buy them wherever I am.
Speaker 4: When'd you buy cigars and Vermont?
Speaker 6: Well, on that trip, I had them with me.
Speaker 7: Oh, I bought him in Chicago, Chicago or Indiana.
Speaker 6: I don't know, somewhere down there, it's.
Speaker 5: That same brand you usually smoke.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it's not as they're kind of a
Speaker 7: little more difficult to find certain areas.
Speaker 10: But yeah, mister Keith, I just have a couple other
Speaker 10: questions as well.
Speaker 8: Obviously, I think.
Speaker 10: That the folks out there told you that one of
Speaker 10: the reasons that we're having this conversation with you is
Speaker 10: because the Courier house has been sitting vacant. I mean
Speaker 10: we helmet as evidence for the past year, and that
Speaker 10: family would like get back because at some point here
Speaker 10: because they want to put it back on the market,
Speaker 10: and there's a chance that's going d up going to
Speaker 10: foreclosure unless we do something pretty quick, which is why
Speaker 10: we're having this conversation, so we can verify that it
Speaker 10: was you and only you that.
Speaker 8: Were involved in their death.
Speaker 10: And I'm one and so that's the focus of my questions.
Speaker 8: And was there anything about missus Courrier.
Speaker 10: I understand that you spent it sounds like more time
Speaker 10: with her than you did miss a career.
Speaker 8: Anything about anything observed.
Speaker 10: About her body, birthmarks, anything like that while you were.
Speaker 3: Involved with her.
Speaker 6: Nothing I really want to talk about, though, Well, Obviously.
Speaker 10: For us, that would be critical to show that it
Speaker 10: was you, and only you that could have committed this crime,
Speaker 10: because nobody else would have that information.
Speaker 8: So to the extent that.
Speaker 10: You're willing to share even a portion of that, it
Speaker 10: would be very helpful for us and able to get
Speaker 10: in order to give the house back and close out
Speaker 10: this aspect of our investigation.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I I think at this point in
Speaker 7: the interview, it's pretty obvious that I was in the house,
Speaker 7: and considering that I had known ties to them prior
Speaker 7: to that night, there's really no other way I could
Speaker 7: know as much about that house as as I do
Speaker 7: unless I was the one who took them out of it.
Speaker 10: So is there anything Can you give me a general
Speaker 10: It can't be specific about what it is you recall
Speaker 10: for her to give me a general idea about what
Speaker 10: part of her body saw something distinctive or anything like that.
Speaker 3: No, I can't.
Speaker 6: I can't really go into that.
Speaker 3: Okay, did bring a question that went in my head
Speaker 3: and out of it all?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 3: Well, never mind, Oh yeah, that's that's what I wanted
Speaker 3: to ask you. This guy Bill spent a lot of
Speaker 3: time on the internet. Is I mean, do you do
Speaker 3: you spend a lot of time on the computer.
Speaker 6: I have carry outic you know, from time to time.
Speaker 3: Is there any chance you guys could have ever crossed
Speaker 3: Pats on the internet, either chatting or anything like that.
Speaker 7: Oh, it's anything's possible, but I doubt it statistically it
Speaker 7: seems improbable.
Speaker 3: Okay, but it's certainly that would not have been a
Speaker 3: conscious thing that you ever communicated with with this guy
Speaker 3: on the internet. No, okay, all right?
Speaker 10: Is there anything else, mister Keith you can think of
Speaker 10: that was personal they spoke to you about like that?
Speaker 10: We have obviously the information about them having moved or
Speaker 10: family members having moved here from Nuski. Is it's personal
Speaker 10: to them? Is there anything else you can talk about
Speaker 10: or recall that they told you that was sort of
Speaker 10: personal to their lives?
Speaker 7: No. I, for the most part, the only time I was,
Speaker 7: you know, letting them mistake was to answer questions that
Speaker 7: I asked them. So I I don't. I yeah, I wasn't.
Speaker 7: It wasn't a typical conversation.
Speaker 6: I guess you could say, it's not.
Speaker 3: It's not like I.
Speaker 10: Did mister Courier say anything to you about the military.
Speaker 8: I know you talked about and.
Speaker 10: I may be getting the wording wrong on this, but
Speaker 10: either the branch of the military or the infantry or
Speaker 10: something like that that you were both a part of
Speaker 10: or had both some similar history with.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 10: And did he tell you anything about specifically what he
Speaker 10: did in the military or his experiences where he been
Speaker 10: anything like that.
Speaker 6: No, he just said it was a long time ago.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 10: And what was it again about the two of you
Speaker 10: that you had in common in terms of the military.
Speaker 8: Was it the same branch of military.
Speaker 7: The same division, I believe, okay, which was what twenty fifth?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 10: And I'm sorry, I don't know a lot of the
Speaker 10: military that's part of the.
Speaker 7: Army or yeah, that's the army. Well they call it.
Speaker 7: They call it the electric strawberry. That's what caught my eye.
Speaker 7: It's a It was the shoulder patch on his uniform.
Speaker 7: It was the same as the one that I had
Speaker 7: worn when I was in the military.
Speaker 10: Does it say electric strawberry or like a flame term
Speaker 10: for what it is?
Speaker 6: It's a leaf.
Speaker 7: I don't know what kind of leaf, maybe an oak
Speaker 7: leaf or something with a lightning.
Speaker 3: Bolt through it.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 10: And you saw that in on somewhere on the insignia
Speaker 10: or the documents.
Speaker 8: Where did you see that?
Speaker 7: I saw it in the in the dresser. It was
Speaker 7: a unit patch. It was either on a uniform or
Speaker 7: it was separate in a bag. And I think it
Speaker 7: was in a bag of his other military medals or something.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 10: And that was in the i'll call it the spare
Speaker 10: room for lack of a better word.
Speaker 6: Right, it was in the bedroom adjoining theirs.
Speaker 10: Okay, and you call it there was actually a bed
Speaker 10: in that bedroom as well.
Speaker 7: There was either a bed or a couch. I don't Yeah,
Speaker 7: I think there was a bed.
Speaker 8: Okay, Okay.
Speaker 10: And I know that you said it not make interview
Speaker 10: that Bill Currier had on shorts that looked similar to
Speaker 10: you to maybe swim trunks or something like that.
Speaker 3: Right, And do you recall.
Speaker 8: What she was wearing the ring.
Speaker 7: She was wearing really lightweight like sleeping shorts and T shirt.
Speaker 10: It looked like they weren't something They looked like a
Speaker 10: sleep wear, like something you would buy a sajamas.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Israel are you are you? Are you made of American
Speaker 3: or anything? No? I noticed you spent several years out
Speaker 3: on the on the West Coast working for the Maka Tribes.
Speaker 3: Is that correct my contract? Yes? And then uh, from
Speaker 3: what I understand from looking at the media, you might
Speaker 3: have had had you might have some property in upstate
Speaker 3: New York near the Saint Regis Tribes. Is that correct? Yes?
Speaker 3: Is that just coincidental? Or did you have any affinity
Speaker 3: for Native America or I mean, it is that significant
Speaker 3: in any way I've had i'n't you know.
Speaker 7: I don't know how significant it is, but you know,
Speaker 7: my our paths have crossed for a long time.
Speaker 3: So if you have a I mean you view these
Speaker 3: people as as victims or people you have respect for.
Speaker 6: I have respect for everybody.
Speaker 3: I just any anything in particular. Well, I guess not
Speaker 3: from the sounds of things, Well, you guess you like
Speaker 3: the outdoors. It sounds like you're kind of very comfortable
Speaker 3: in the wilderness surroundings. And I just wondered if that
Speaker 3: was any part of your heritage. It's just the way
Speaker 3: I was raised.
Speaker 7: I no, but I'm not. I'm not a Native American that.
Speaker 3: I know of.
Speaker 10: And if I can just ask, and I know that
Speaker 10: you've said that you've run a lot of detail, and
Speaker 10: you have and I'm just trying to I guess answer
Speaker 10: some questions.
Speaker 8: They're still lingering out there.
Speaker 10: I think you said in the math interview that when
Speaker 10: you went into their bedroom that you tore or or
Speaker 10: brought all of the covers off.
Speaker 8: Of the bed.
Speaker 3: Is that right? Yes? Okay?
Speaker 10: And did those covers stay off the bed?
Speaker 6: Probably okay?
Speaker 8: And then ask you restrain them?
Speaker 10: It sounds like just with their wrists by their wrists,
Speaker 10: is that right?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay?
Speaker 10: And did they stay on the bed or did they
Speaker 10: go somewhere else? No.
Speaker 7: I told them. I had them roll over on their
Speaker 7: stomachs and I, you know, I told them to keep
Speaker 7: their faces down on the pillow and not look look
Speaker 7: at anything or talk or anything. And after they had
Speaker 7: done that, told them to put their hands behind their backs,
Speaker 7: and that's I restrained their wrists and just told them
Speaker 7: to stay there.
Speaker 3: So basically you were able to control them, at least initially,
Speaker 3: just by the fact that they did they knew you
Speaker 3: had a gun.
Speaker 6: I don't think they knew that they I told them
Speaker 6: I had a gun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And uh, well, they obviously got the message.
Speaker 7: That you meant business, right, Not really that was kind
Speaker 7: of the problem.
Speaker 3: Uh, I mean, I I'm trying to you know, picture
Speaker 3: this in my mind, and I imagine when you go
Speaker 3: in there, you you are, you know, kind of kind
Speaker 3: of like when I kick a door in and I
Speaker 3: tell people to get on the ground. It's obvious just
Speaker 3: from the tone of my voice that that you don't
Speaker 3: want to mess you don't want to not do what
Speaker 3: I'm telling you to do. I mean, is that a
Speaker 3: similar thing?
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, initially that's that's the way it went down.
Speaker 6: But once the.
Speaker 7: I guess, once they realized what's going on, what's really
Speaker 7: going on?
Speaker 3: Is that you know, did they if you were gonna
Speaker 3: kill him? I mean, like it was that big thing?
Speaker 3: Or did it? Was it more like? What? What? What's
Speaker 3: going on?
Speaker 7: I think they were incredulous of the whole situation, and
Speaker 7: and that was part of the problem is they didn't
Speaker 7: realize how serious the situation was.
Speaker 6: I think they thought that they could.
Speaker 3: Talk their way out of it or negotiate their way
Speaker 3: out of it. And are they trying to like build
Speaker 3: rapport with you, like, yeah, okay, gotcha. Did you get
Speaker 3: the sense that they had been dreat before they went
Speaker 3: to bed? Like have you just smell alcohol in your
Speaker 3: breath or anything like that? No, I didn't know.
Speaker 7: I I think I knew that there were somebody had
Speaker 7: been drinking in the house, because I remember seeing something
Speaker 7: to that effect. And I knew that she smoked, And
Speaker 7: I don't beyond that, I don't. I didn't notice anything
Speaker 7: about them personally.
Speaker 3: No, you let her smoke, buddy too.
Speaker 6: I think I didn't let her smoke or time or two?
Speaker 8: Yeah, okay, when did you do that?
Speaker 10: When they were you were still at their house.
Speaker 8: Or when you went to the farmhouse when we were
Speaker 8: at the farmhouse.
Speaker 10: So did you unrestrained her during that time?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 8: Well did you hold a cigarette up to her about
Speaker 8: for her?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I mean I she wasn't in restraints the whole time,
Speaker 6: but initially she was.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Okay, it was during that time that she let
Speaker 8: her smoke.
Speaker 6: I let her smoke a couple of different times.
Speaker 8: Okay, after her initial.
Speaker 10: Attempt to get away, did she try to get away again?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 8: And when did that happen?
Speaker 6: That happened when I was.
Speaker 7: Dealing with the situation with mister Curry in the basement.
Speaker 6: I think she, I mean, she could hear what was
Speaker 6: that there was.
Speaker 7: Something going on, and I think I already had her
Speaker 7: tied up pretty well by then, but I could tell
Speaker 7: when I got back up that she'd been trying to
Speaker 7: get away.
Speaker 10: Okay, and she was she successful in any way and
Speaker 10: trying to get away?
Speaker 6: Not really?
Speaker 8: No, did you tell her that those?
Speaker 3: Did she? Well?
Speaker 6: No, I never told her that.
Speaker 8: Now Or do you think she knew it?
Speaker 6: I don't know what she thought.
Speaker 7: I mean, she she knew that there was definitely an
Speaker 7: altercation in the basement, and.
Speaker 3: She may have.
Speaker 6: Suspected that there were I don't I don't really think
Speaker 6: I think.
Speaker 7: She knew that I came up and got a gun,
Speaker 7: But I don't know if she knew that I had
Speaker 7: shot it, because she probably wouldn't have recognized it as
Speaker 7: a gunshot.
Speaker 3: To make more of a clicking noise when you when
Speaker 3: you had that silence are on it.
Speaker 7: The only I mean, with that silencer on it, the
Speaker 7: only thing you could hear was the sound of the
Speaker 7: bolt going back and forth. And of course you can
Speaker 7: hear the bullet sitting.
Speaker 3: But yeah, but from here it's probably not especially I mean,
Speaker 3: is it raining at this time?
Speaker 6: I think it has started raining again at some point.
Speaker 7: I remember there was a hole in the roof and
Speaker 7: there was a lot of water pouring down in one
Speaker 7: through one portion of the house.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you uh, you mentioned it's something like a
Speaker 3: like a hole cut into the floor for for a
Speaker 3: pipe to go through or something like that, because I
Speaker 3: know you'd said something about your camp stop falling down
Speaker 3: through it or something. Yeah. Did you get the feeling
Speaker 3: that there was a it was for a woodstove pipe
Speaker 3: or something like that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that's exactly what it was.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, Well she was and from the sound
Speaker 3: of the thing, she was pretty intact, I mean physically
Speaker 3: until until like the last time you were done with
Speaker 3: her upstairs in your heart and you mentioned strangling her
Speaker 3: and she had she had kind of given up or
Speaker 3: something like that. Am I right? Is that is that accurate?
Speaker 3: Or did you did did you injure or or rubber
Speaker 3: up or in any way before that?
Speaker 7: Well, it sounds like you heard the description.
Speaker 3: I gave of well I understood, Yeah, I did, And
Speaker 3: I just I don't have a full understanding of what
Speaker 3: you were explaining. And maybe it's because you know, I
Speaker 3: listened to it over a week ago and heard it once.
Speaker 3: But but it sounds like you may have rubbed her
Speaker 3: up a bit when she tried to escape the first time.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I had to be a little more assertive after
Speaker 7: after that point you.
Speaker 3: Slap her around or punch her or you choked her,
Speaker 3: And what's what's the I didn't hit her. I think
Speaker 3: I grabbed her by the hair.
Speaker 7: And and maybe by the back of the neck and
Speaker 7: and to take her into the house.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, and now you bring her downstairs to
Speaker 3: finish her off. But but you mentioned that she's she's
Speaker 3: kind of out of it as you bring her downstairs.
Speaker 3: Had you had you choked her out before or it
Speaker 3: was it's just a result of all she had been through.
Speaker 6: Well, I'm sure it was a comedy. I mean, uh,
Speaker 6: I had.
Speaker 7: Choked her.
Speaker 3: It is choking. I guess that is that a part
Speaker 3: of what you do because I know you you mentioned
Speaker 3: that the whole tying up bondage thing is is is
Speaker 3: important to you. I guess for no other for lack
Speaker 3: of a better term, is choking a big element of
Speaker 3: this whole thing too? Yeah, okay, all right, So telling you,
Speaker 3: I mean, you're pretty angry that things didn't go exactly
Speaker 3: the way you wanted them to. Would this have had
Speaker 3: any different conclusion? I mean, you've never had any intention
Speaker 3: of letting these people live, did you no? Okay? All right,
Speaker 3: I can't think of anything else. Use right now, anybody
Speaker 3: else or Israel if you, if you have any questions,
Speaker 3: jump right in.
Speaker 10: I know, mister Keith, this is Mary Morrison, and honestly,
Speaker 10: and I had written a letter to the folks out
Speaker 10: there that I think you've been. You've stayed a coffee.
Speaker 3: Of yeah, okay, And obviously.
Speaker 10: We appreciate your willingness to give us information today because
Speaker 10: it helps us close out this aspect of our case.
Speaker 10: And as you know, this case is a very big
Speaker 10: deal in the state. We don't have people go missing
Speaker 10: very often, and when they do, they're normally found fairly quickly.
Speaker 8: In this case with Warner, anniversary is coming up.
Speaker 10: Here in just a few days, and we expect there
Speaker 10: to be a lot of media attention on this.
Speaker 8: And we expect them to be painting the.
Speaker 10: Police in a fairly unfavorable light about the fact that
Speaker 10: it was not made in the rest in the case.
Speaker 10: And obviously we have information right now as to who
Speaker 10: did it, and we have made a commitment on our
Speaker 10: part to not attaching your name to this case, and
Speaker 10: we've agreed to not charge you in Vermont without specific
Speaker 10: permission from the federal authorities.
Speaker 8: But that's based.
Speaker 10: Wholly in part on you providing information about this victim
Speaker 10: in New York, and I understand that you're reluctant or
Speaker 10: hesitant to give to give that information.
Speaker 8: Is that correct?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 4: Yeah, if I can jump in, Israel, I just just
Speaker 4: marry is is friends, just to let you know what
Speaker 4: we had a discussion of beforehand.
Speaker 5: You know, I think Israel just needs.
Speaker 4: Some questions sounds like answering about the letter, about the situation.
Speaker 4: But my understanding is, you know, he's never he's never
Speaker 4: wavered from the fact that he is going to tell
Speaker 4: us about New York.
Speaker 5: And obviously Israel can correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 7: Correct, that's you know, that's prior to everything up to
Speaker 7: this point. The main specifics of what I've been discussing
Speaker 7: with investigators here have all been things that took place
Speaker 7: within the last year, with the exception of a trip
Speaker 7: that Vermont was also involved in. I believe they said
Speaker 7: it was two thousand and nine. So I mean, I've
Speaker 7: given them some information on that trip. I'm just hesitant
Speaker 7: to reveal too much more about what happened on that trip.
Speaker 7: Until I find out what my options are as far
Speaker 7: as potential agreement or negotiation we can come to regarding
Speaker 7: whether or not I'm charged with it for number number one,
Speaker 7: and at what time that information becomes public that I'm
Speaker 7: that I'm responsible for for not just the things that
Speaker 7: have happened within the last year, but things that happened
Speaker 7: to prior to that.
Speaker 3: That's what my concern is at this point.
Speaker 10: Right well, And I mean, I don't understand you've got
Speaker 10: lawyers out there that you can, you know, consult with
Speaker 10: if you like. And I just want to dress one
Speaker 10: thing because in the beginning of this conversation you asked,
Speaker 10: I guess it may have been through Frank whether or
Speaker 10: not Essex was found by this by that letter, right right,
Speaker 10: And I mean, I'm not sure if you're.
Speaker 8: Looking at this letter and trying.
Speaker 10: To pick it apart and see if there's some like
Speaker 10: wiggle room or whatever there for us. And I mean,
Speaker 10: I'm kind.
Speaker 8: Of I'm pretty straightforward.
Speaker 10: This is a commandment we've made because we're very interested,
Speaker 10: obviously in closing out other cases if we can.
Speaker 8: I mean, my focus right now is Vermont in New York.
Speaker 8: And that's it for right now.
Speaker 10: And our commitment is entirely dependent on that information being provided.
Speaker 10: And I understand that you know you've got questions. I'm
Speaker 10: sure the legitimate questions that you want answered, But I'm
Speaker 10: just trying to be direct and forth right with you
Speaker 10: that that's the linchpin of the agreement for us.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, in my mind, I don't feel that
Speaker 7: I owe you anything per se because as far as
Speaker 7: the couriers are concerned, the only thing I've asked is
Speaker 7: that my name not be attached to it.
Speaker 6: You have all your information. You should have.
Speaker 7: Come to the realization by now that this crime is
Speaker 7: completely solved and wrapped up and right.
Speaker 8: But we're not arresting anybody for it, you know. We're
Speaker 8: doing that on our agreement with you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they obviously you know, they're not going ahead
Speaker 4: and charging you.
Speaker 3: We're dealing with the public. Follow Yeah, I love that,
Speaker 3: which which isn't isn't great because you know, as far
Speaker 3: as they're concerned, we haven't solved this thing.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, and the public knows you're looking for
Speaker 7: the bodies, which is more than you had a few
Speaker 7: months ago.
Speaker 3: Well, don't get don't get me wrong, it's it's uh
Speaker 3: I've lived with this case for well going on a
Speaker 3: year now, and uh yeah, since April. I yeah, I'm
Speaker 3: in a different place. Uh but you know that. I
Speaker 3: guess it's not my issue to to speak about the
Speaker 3: agreement and stuff like that. So I'll just leave all
Speaker 3: that stuff to to Marry and and the other attorneys,
Speaker 3: and I just I appreciate you giving me additional details
Speaker 3: which you have and if you if you don't mind,
Speaker 3: I want to ask you a personal question. I went
Speaker 3: on your website. Did you do all that carpentry that
Speaker 3: that the photos are all about? Yeah?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean everything that was on the website or.
Speaker 3: Yeah, where did you learn to do that? Yeah?
Speaker 6: Oh? Practice makes perfect.
Speaker 3: With that, I said, practice makes perfect.
Speaker 6: I've been doing it, you know, since I was seventeen.
Speaker 3: So I mean, you're amazing. You're an amazing carpenter. I
Speaker 3: wish you would have stayed that. I've always been, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. But okay, well, thanks for your time.
Speaker 8: Are there questions I can answer, mister kath in terms
Speaker 8: of the letter or not.
Speaker 7: I do have some concerns about the way the letter's worded,
Speaker 7: but I don't have an issue with with your commitment
Speaker 7: it's things. It's all things that I think we can
Speaker 7: work out from this end good.
Speaker 10: And that's obviously I'm encouraged to hear that. And like
Speaker 10: I said, that's that's why, that's why.
Speaker 8: I wrote it.
Speaker 10: So I guess I just wanted to reassure you that
Speaker 10: to the extent there to extend, the concerns may exist,
Speaker 10: there's certainly weren't intentional.
Speaker 8: I'm telling you right now.
Speaker 10: That the commitment we made was in order to get
Speaker 10: this information in the commitment stands well.
Speaker 7: I mean, I I always said, I feel I know
Speaker 7: that right now there's hasn't been a lot of new
Speaker 7: information you have on on things that happened prior to
Speaker 7: within the last year.
Speaker 3: But I'm still.
Speaker 6: Pretty confident that it can.
Speaker 7: Be worked out to where investigators get everything that they
Speaker 7: want and need to close the rest of these cases.
Speaker 6: But yeah, it's it's it's.
Speaker 7: Not gonna happen overnight because I have some concerns about
Speaker 7: like my long term my fate, if you will, and
Speaker 7: and those are the last cards I have to play.
Speaker 7: And I know that, so you know, I it's not
Speaker 7: it's not anything personal that I'm withholding information.
Speaker 6: It's just there's some other unresolved issues that.
Speaker 7: I'm dealing with right now that I want to want
Speaker 7: to make sure I have an understanding of it before
Speaker 7: I before I jump in with both feet on some
Speaker 7: of these other things.
Speaker 10: Okay, what now of tho those issues have nothing to
Speaker 10: do without directly.
Speaker 7: Them, No, I think frankly, I've been pretty impressed with
Speaker 7: the lack of media attention on, you know, what's been
Speaker 7: going on in a career case.
Speaker 6: I there was, Yeah, there's I mean, I know that.
Speaker 7: It can't be easy from your perspective to keep this
Speaker 7: thing under wraps at this point, and so I have
Speaker 7: been impressed that it's been that my name hasn't been
Speaker 7: attached to it yet, and if it can stay that way,
Speaker 7: that's will definitely.
Speaker 6: Speed up the process.
Speaker 7: I realize it's not going to be that way indefinitely,
Speaker 7: but yeah, right, well.
Speaker 10: And you're right, I mean, it hasn't been easy because
Speaker 10: it's George described you the I think early on when
Speaker 10: people heard that the jump site had been able to
Speaker 10: focused it or you know, limit where we would have
Speaker 10: to search to a pretty specific area, I think we
Speaker 10: thought it might be a lot smaller, and it's not.
Speaker 10: It's a big, big area so it requires a lot
Speaker 10: of people to go through it, and so there's a
Speaker 10: lot of people working on it. So to contain that
Speaker 10: information is a lot of effort, and it's hard because,
Speaker 10: as I said, you have not only you know, the
Speaker 10: pressure from you in the sense that if this gets out,
Speaker 10: then you may not give information. So that's obviously a
Speaker 10: real factor for us, but also we've got a lot
Speaker 10: of public pressure because it is a big deal here
Speaker 10: and people want to know what happened.
Speaker 8: They know we're looking for bodies that they assume.
Speaker 10: I think that we're looking for bodies based on credible
Speaker 10: information that the bodies are there, and you.
Speaker 8: Don't put the huge amount of resources.
Speaker 10: Into this search without some credible information. I think people
Speaker 10: understand that, and there's been a lot of pressure on
Speaker 10: us to do something about that, to respond to that.
Speaker 10: And I'm hoping that when you say that our silence
Speaker 10: and attaching your name to it can be that this
Speaker 10: process it's true and we can, you know, move forward
Speaker 10: because it's hard for us.
Speaker 7: So yeah, well, well yeah, I think I think it
Speaker 7: will good.
Speaker 3: Israel is there ever do you do you ever see
Speaker 3: a time that you might feel like you're willing to
Speaker 3: discuss the more intimate details about what happened, uh to
Speaker 3: to Bill and Lorraine. And the reason I'm asking that is,
Speaker 3: you know, just as a cop, and I I am
Speaker 3: very curious as to you know, the whole method of this.
Speaker 3: And you know, it sounds to me like you're you're
Speaker 3: a very organized guy, and maybe this is something better
Speaker 3: for you know, the FBI, uh, you know, shrinks to
Speaker 3: to way over. But but is that something you're gonna
Speaker 3: You're gonna carry you to the grave or is there
Speaker 3: some point where you might enlighten some of us about that.
Speaker 7: Well, there's for now a lot of the details that
Speaker 7: that happened between well, for example, in the couriers.
Speaker 6: You know, those those details.
Speaker 7: I've given you your bottom line, you know, you know,
Speaker 7: you know what my basic motivations are. And as far
Speaker 7: as my specific motivations, that's, uh, that's something I I
Speaker 7: can't answer your question as far as when or if
Speaker 7: I might be able to talk about that, I.
Speaker 3: Imagine, I mean, you're gonna have if you obviously have
Speaker 3: a lot of time to reflect on on your own
Speaker 3: life and uh, and if I'm assuming correct, you did.
Speaker 3: You didn't wake up one morning and decide that this
Speaker 3: is what you wanted to do with your life.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 3: As to whether you have any regrets or anything, or
Speaker 3: feel sorry or anything like that, that's not what I'm
Speaker 3: talking about. But as as somebody you know who's, like
Speaker 3: I said, I've been I've been in this business for
Speaker 3: twenty eight years, and I'm very interested in people and
Speaker 3: why they make the choices that they do. So, I mean,
Speaker 3: I think that would be of a lot of value,
Speaker 3: not just to me personally, but but to all of
Speaker 3: us too, you know, to explore that at some point,
Speaker 3: And I understand that's not now, but you know, at
Speaker 3: some point I'd certainly be interested in that.
Speaker 7: Well, I think the short answer to what you're asking
Speaker 7: me specifically, the way I think of it, I don't
Speaker 7: really consider myself all that different or all that special
Speaker 7: from hundreds of thousands of other people. All you have
Speaker 7: to do is type in a word search on any
Speaker 7: given corn sight, and you know there's all kinds of
Speaker 7: people who have fantasies about rape and bondage, and you know,
Speaker 7: the kinds of things that I take to another level.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I get that. And from what the as
Speaker 3: it was explained to me is, you know, people early
Speaker 3: early in life who can, through neglect or abuse, feel
Speaker 3: that they don't have any control over their life develop
Speaker 3: control fantasies over their life, and some of them involve
Speaker 3: the violence and inflicting pain. I mean, so, I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't. But the other side of the coin is
Speaker 3: you're not I mean, you're not one hundred thousand other people.
Speaker 3: You're you, and you know you've got specific reasons why
Speaker 3: why you chose to do the things you get. You
Speaker 3: get where I'm coming from.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I am I
Speaker 7: still disagree that there's I think with me, it's a
Speaker 7: combination of things. It's not you know, it's not just
Speaker 7: about the sexual fantasies and it's not it's definitely not
Speaker 7: just about the money, and it's not just about the adrenaline.
Speaker 7: But it's all those things together and that's what I
Speaker 7: get out of it. And once I started doing, you know,
Speaker 7: once I did it.
Speaker 3: The practice makes perfect, like you said, right, Yeah, well
Speaker 3: not so much that.
Speaker 7: It was more once I started, you know, and there
Speaker 7: was nothing else like it.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I bet are you familiar with this guy
Speaker 3: handsome from up in Alaska that that was labeled the
Speaker 3: serial killer that used to capture people. And yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean it happened right around this lake. Matt Muska, I mean,
Speaker 3: is this a guy that I mean, you you ever
Speaker 3: do you ever look into any of that stuff about
Speaker 3: other people like that?
Speaker 7: I probably know every single serial killer that's ever been
Speaker 7: written about.
Speaker 3: It's kind of a hobby line. So are you familiar
Speaker 3: with the handsome guy? Yeah? Okay, is he still wied
Speaker 3: by any chance? Yeah? I think so.
Speaker 7: He's a little before my time, but yeah, he's ensewered
Speaker 7: up here.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just curious. I mean, I'm curious, guy, I guess.
Speaker 3: So once again, once again, I'll say finally and U
Speaker 3: and I appreciate your time, all right, and our just.
Speaker 8: Just to wrap up from my end to things.
Speaker 10: You know, our commitment the letter, that is the commitment
Speaker 10: that we put in the letter is is valid and
Speaker 10: is concrete in a solid so long as you are cooperating.
Speaker 10: I mean, it doesn't It's not like earlier when I
Speaker 10: said our focus is obviously Vermont in New.
Speaker 8: York, which is what it is right now.
Speaker 10: It's not like if you give New York that suddenly
Speaker 10: we're saying, okay, well we're writing to charge if you're
Speaker 10: cooperating out there. You know, the commitment in a letter
Speaker 10: remains intact.
Speaker 6: All right, I appreciate that.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 3: Do you think give us a little scared when you
Speaker 3: when you tried to bold out of the courtroom us too? Yeah?
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, okay, guys, Well, thank you very much.
Speaker 8: For your time.
Speaker 3: All right, I appreciate it.
Speaker 5: By all right, So I think that at least help them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, any thoughts, Oh yeah, let's tretting that. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 6: I had some concerns.
Speaker 3: But I don't I'm not. I'm not worried. Now.
Speaker 7: It sounds like they had already had the main interviews.
Speaker 7: So yeah, they wanted to charge me. They could have
Speaker 7: charged me already.
Speaker 3: Right exactly.
Speaker 9: And that just gives that you know that Murdy, the
Speaker 9: lieutenant that you were talking to, is the one who's
Speaker 9: been tormented for ten months with this being responsible for
Speaker 9: this case and not having answers and just taking a
Speaker 9: little bit of ownership in the investigation and getting to
Speaker 9: talk to you and to satisfy you know, his investigation.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that being said that, you know they are.
Speaker 4: Before I got in here, I talked to the prosecutor there,
Speaker 4: and you know, she did you know, express some concern
Speaker 4: about the heat that's going to be on them. I
Speaker 4: don't know if you've seen these cases, you probably have,
Speaker 4: but they start looking at, oh, the one year anniversary
Speaker 4: and basically trying to make the cops look like fools
Speaker 4: after the one year and now they're running around the
Speaker 4: dump doing nothing, so that they do have some specific
Speaker 4: concerns about that, and they just kind of in their
Speaker 4: mind and certainly otherwise they just want to be assured
Speaker 4: that they're doing it and they're taking the heat for
Speaker 4: good reason. And that's that's what she made clear to me.
Speaker 4: And I think that's valid. I mean, obviously we were
Speaker 4: in the same position.
Speaker 5: We'd beat Oh.
Speaker 6: I don't blame them for one too. I mean the
Speaker 6: easy thing up on their soapbox now and say we've
Speaker 6: got it's all.
Speaker 3: But it would be the easy thing for right.
Speaker 6: And don't I understand that.
Speaker 3: But you know, my point is is.
Speaker 6: If you know they they at least they know at
Speaker 6: some point.
Speaker 7: Now they'll get to do that, whereas before I gave
Speaker 7: them the immigration they may never have.
Speaker 3: Been sure to do that.
Speaker 4: There's that, but there's always people are very territorial and
Speaker 4: they kind of want to you know, sort of bring
Speaker 4: charge themselves, and that's a lot for them to give up,
Speaker 4: being a whole different side. So I think you know
Speaker 4: that they are making a sacrifice here, and I understand that.
Speaker 5: You know, obviously it came from your mouth. But at
Speaker 5: the end of the day, you.
Speaker 3: Know, they they they want.
Speaker 5: To have closure themselves.
Speaker 4: But you know, I think it's it's working out as
Speaker 4: well as can be expected. You know that being said,
Speaker 4: they're going to get some heat whenever it is next week?
Speaker 4: Is that when the anniversary is? I think it's a
Speaker 4: week from today, so, but you know, hopefully we'll have
Speaker 4: made some progress by then, you've had.
Speaker 5: Some time to answer your questions about being a letter
Speaker 5: all right, right, any other questions for me?
Speaker 3: I don't think so.
Speaker 4: I think, uh, Kevin will be back next week and
Speaker 4: I'll be gone, so uh you know, he may wanna
Speaker 4: uh kind of chat with you a little bit about Yeah,
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so.
Speaker 5: That's okay with you. We'll probably schedule at that point.
Speaker 6: Yeah, alright, some Yeah, I don't I'm sure what.
Speaker 5: BLUs your family be out of town.
Speaker 4: Yeah, schedule wolping outside of speech?
Speaker 3: Alright, thanks?
Speaker 2: Is it really need to hit the uh restaurant n Yeah,
Speaker 2: if they did, yeah,