WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:14.919 This is a studio both and production. As you know, 2 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.679 we are celebrating my tenth year in podcasting and we're 3 00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:22.879 capping that celebration off with a three day event here 4 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:26.160 in the Berkshires over the weekend of September twenty fifth. 5 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:30.679 There will be studio sessions, live shows, a Bravo town hall, 6 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:35.479 Berkshire activities like foraging, wine tasting, museum visits and more, 7 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:38.439 and tons of special guests. Will do the Karen and 8 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:42.039 Ellen Letters Live starring Amanda Jacobson from Wine and Crime, 9 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:47.079 Tawny plattis famous renowned voice actress, and Chris Brayton from 10 00:00:47.079 --> 00:00:51.159 the More Gooder Than podcast. I'll be doing a very special, 11 00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:56.000 first time ever live show of the Pact with special 12 00:00:56.039 --> 00:00:59.600 guest Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed. We'll do a 13 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:04.959 panel discussion on Unsafe Spaces featuring me, Kaz, Charlie Wirrel 14 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:08.319 from Crime Lines, and Justin and Aaron from Generation Why. 15 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:12.439 There will even be a live episode of Our Americana 16 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:17.599 and a very cool Playlist by TCB episode featuring me 17 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:20.480 and the entire research team. Guests, we'll get to check 18 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:23.480 out my new speakeasy, the green Room, tour the studio 19 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:27.040 and get elbow deep in the research process. This is 20 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:29.159 a once in a lifetime event where you'll get to 21 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:33.439 enjoy the berkshers, share fun activities with the podcast hosts 22 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:37.239 you love the most, and really dig into podcasting and 23 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:40.799 all the shows I have produced along with my friends. 24 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:43.560 Book your tickets today by clicking the link in the 25 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:46.319 show notes. And if that doesn't work for you, why 26 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:50.200 don't you think about? If not now when? For example, 27 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:54.799 we are going to the Galapagos Islands January eleventh through seventeenth. 28 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.599 Haven't you always wanted to go? And if not now, 29 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.040 when will you go? And wouldn't you go during the 30 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:04.040 winter here in the States to escape to the warmth 31 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:08.759 with like minded new friends who love true crime bullshit 32 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:11.879 as much as you do, but also love the experience 33 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:15.240 of travel, seeing animals and getting away from it all. 34 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:19.080 These Trova trips have made me lifelong friends. They are 35 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:21.919 such a great way to meet new people, get out 36 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:25.680 of your world and shake things up. And like I said, 37 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:27.759 if you're not going to go to the Galapagos now, 38 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.879 will you ever book your trip today by clicking the 39 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:33.080 link in the show notes. 40 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:39.000 Especially you Cepaine with the FBI. Today's Friday June. First 41 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:42.479 time's approximately nine fifteen am by my watch. Following the 42 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.759 will be a interview with Aeriel Keys at the FBI 43 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:48.960 office and Anchorage with me, OBTFO, Jeff Bell, and AUSA 44 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:55.639 Frank Russo. 45 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.319 Is real? How do you know? 46 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:13.560 All right? 47 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:13.840 Isra? 48 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:17.719 We're gonna run through kind of what's become our standard 49 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:21.080 stuff here. You may know it better than I do. 50 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:26.479 Let me know if I mess anything up there. I 51 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:28.159 know we covered some of this stuff at the jail, 52 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:31.879 but we're gonna run through it again quickly here. When 53 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:33.800 we came over and picked you up this morning, did 54 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:35.360 we interrupt a meeting with your attorney? 55 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:35.800 No? 56 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:38.759 Okay, and you're here voluntarily? 57 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:39.759 Is that correct? Yes? 58 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:43.479 You understand we can't discuss anything to do with the 59 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:46.400 Samantha Colding case, and if you do, then we'll have 60 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:48.479 to stop the interview and we'll take you back to jail. 61 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:49.039 You understand that. 62 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:49.560 Yes. 63 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:54.439 Run through your Miranda rights. I know we've done this 64 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:57.280 a number of times. Before we ask any questions, you 65 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.000 must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent. 66 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:03.039 Anything you say can be used against you in court. 67 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:04.759 Do you have the right to talk to a lawyer? 68 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.840 For advice before we ask any questions. You have the 69 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:10.639 rights to have a lawyer with you during questioning if 70 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:12.719 you cannot afford a lawyer, when be appointed for you 71 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:15.280 before any questioning if you wish, And if you decide 72 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.279 to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you have 73 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:19.680 the right to stop answering at any time. Do you 74 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:21.680 understand these rights as I've explained them to you. 75 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:22.519 Yes, okay. 76 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:24.680 And with that explanation in mind, are you willing to 77 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:26.399 waive these rights and then talk to us here today? 78 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:26.800 Yes? 79 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:31.879 I know you've got at least one, possibly two stand 80 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:35.199 by attorneys appointed in this matter, that being Rich Pertner 81 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:37.879 and Jacqueline Walsh. Do you want either of those two 82 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.040 attorneys or any other attorney present today? 83 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:41.000 No? Okay. 84 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.399 Are you on any medications or other substances? 85 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:45.519 No? Okay? 86 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.399 And are you having any difficulty understanding where you're at 87 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:49.120 or what's going on? 88 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:49.439 No? 89 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:53.000 Alrighty, I think that covers it unless I miss someone? 90 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:54.199 No? All right? 91 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:58.199 Okay, Israel just want a touch phase before we call 92 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.600 Romant and on this is Jeff called and expressed that 93 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:05.480 you know, obviously you're not prepared to talk about. 94 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:08.560 The New York victim you very New York. 95 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:12.399 Right, then you have some questions that you still you 96 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:15.519 cleared up on your rant, right, Is there any questions 97 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:17.680 that we can answer to you about that when we 98 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:20.959 go into Vermont? 99 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:24.879 No, Uh, the main issues I'm. 100 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:28.120 Dealing with on h on other things that you know, 101 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.519 the other victims that we haven't really talked about, is. 102 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:36.079 Some things I was having. 103 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:42.800 My investigators look into, and uh, like I'm still waiting 104 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:47.560 to hear back on my status with the marshals. But 105 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:50.079 that's yeah, it's all still. 106 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:54.839 Pending at this time as far as I know, So Okay, Yeah, 107 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:55.720 I just I don't know. 108 00:05:56.120 --> 00:06:02.920 I am still trying to to uh to figure out 109 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:06.040 if there's anything that can be done about any of that. 110 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:08.800 I guess and then you know, I mean. 111 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:12.160 One way or the other, it's gonna we'll be able 112 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:14.120 to talk about that stuff. But I just want to 113 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.680 find out what my options are as far as a 114 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:17.399 couple other. 115 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:22.480 Things first, A couple of things on that I understand. 116 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:25.399 You know, you certainly have a right and can should 117 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.160 consult with whatever you want on this. If there's anything 118 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:33.600 you if you have any questions about things that we 119 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:36.959 can sort of get answers to. We're happy to do that, 120 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:40.000 especially like if you're saying there's something about the marshals 121 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:44.639 and you know, we can obviously ask them whatever, you know, 122 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:45.399 questions you. 123 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:52.839 Have, Yeah, and I I mean, I don't I'm hesitant 124 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:58.839 to go that route as far as like trading information 125 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:05.000 for what what status they put me on, because I 126 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:06.800 mean I will if I have to, if I think 127 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:09.519 it'll work, But for now I'm waiting. 128 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:09.800 To hear back. 129 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.160 Yeah, I mean, I don't know there's anything we can 130 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:17.240 do about that kind of stuff, quite frankly, because the 131 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:21.519 marshals are very uh, you know, they're very territorial about security, 132 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:23.040 as you probably can guess. 133 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:25.600 And then it's even more it's a little more. 134 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:29.240 Complicated than that because the marshals literally just rent space 135 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:32.680 from the state right in the facility of the Department 136 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:35.439 of Corrections. So in some senses they have their own rules, 137 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.000 but then they also have to live in the Department 138 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:38.000 of Corrections. 139 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:40.920 Rules, and so there's a couple of entities that you know. 140 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:42.519 That's the impression I'm getting. 141 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.519 And I just I haven't heard back from all the 142 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:47.439 parties involved yet, so I. 143 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:49.439 Could just tell you just from you know, I have 144 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:54.439 it dealt with innate situation. For that, it's a headache, 145 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:57.399 and you know, there's really not a lot we can 146 00:07:57.439 --> 00:07:59.399 do about it. If they have real security concerns, they 147 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:01.680 basically say butt outs of our business. 148 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:04.959 So right, but you know, you never never can tell them. 149 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:07.360 So if there's anything you need with you know, from 150 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:10.279 muscle respect to that, we can certainly try to get answers. 151 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:13.959 The second part of that is, yeah, I mean I 152 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:16.040 understand what you're saying is, look, you just need to 153 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.759 kind of dot your eyes across your t's on the 154 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:20.000 New York thing, correct. 155 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:24.560 Right, And you know, I think we'll make that. 156 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:25.959 I can make that clear to Verman. 157 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.160 I mean I told them basically when they relate to me, 158 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:29.839 you didn't want to talk about anything else because they 159 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:31.879 always want a status of where are you on other 160 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.639 things because that's part of their letter. You know, they 161 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:38.279 get a little bit antsy, so to speak, and they 162 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:39.360 have their own reasons for that. 163 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:41.840 Maybe they'll express it to you on the phone. 164 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:44.799 So I don't want to speak for them, but you know, 165 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:47.679 just just know that they obviously have some concerns in 166 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:50.320 that regard. I can do my best to reassure them 167 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:52.120 that it's you know, you're going to live up to 168 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:54.679 your end of the deal, but you know, just sort 169 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:56.440 of as a as a word of warning when we 170 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:59.399 talk to them that may they make them up. 171 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:02.840 I mean, I don't know, I don't know what they're 172 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:05.080 going to ask I do have. I've been doing a 173 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.879 lot of thinking about this, you know, since we discussed 174 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:10.480 having this conference call with them. I have some concerns 175 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:12.600 as to why they would even want to talk to 176 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:17.799 me about the Courier case, considering that we've already had 177 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:19.360 extensive interviews. 178 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:21.840 On it, you know, with the FBI, and it's all 179 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:22.600 been recorded. 180 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.519 So I'm a little bit leary about what their motivations 181 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:31.320 are and asking me additional questions and what what they 182 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:33.960 plan to do with that information that they get. 183 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.200 So I just I'm not I don't know. 184 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:39.000 I know, we're dealing with like different jurisdiction issues here, 185 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:43.440 and I don't know, like what what the rules are 186 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:45.960 the rules game rules are going to be as far 187 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.519 as the information that they get off of this conference 188 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.240 call versus the information they got from you, you know, 189 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:52.639 like secondhand information. 190 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:55.919 So I mean, what I can tell you what let me. 191 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:58.120 Let me tell you exactly, because I've had this conversation 192 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:00.720 with them too, because you know, I'm concerned about that 193 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:02.039 because we don't want to mess up things. 194 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:03.639 We're working on other crimes, right. 195 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:08.320 So the first thing, you know, they said is, look, 196 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:10.440 you know, we have to give this house back to 197 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:13.519 the Courier family because it's I don't know, somehow in 198 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.399 foreclosure and they're pain on it and they've been maintaining 199 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:18.600 it as a crime scene, and so that they're just 200 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:21.120 incurring an enormous amount of debt that they're gonna it's 201 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:21.879 going under water. 202 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:22.399 Right. 203 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:24.919 So from that perspective, they want to you know, make 204 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:28.200 sure I think primarily, like you know, they all want 205 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.200 to have comfort that you're the right guy on this, 206 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:32.440 right one. 207 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:34.240 So they can release the house and they don't have 208 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:37.440 to worry about continuing their investigation exactly. 209 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.120 And hearing it from us is one thing, and you'll 210 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:40.399 be listening to tape is another thing. 211 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:42.919 But asking you know, questions yourselves. 212 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:46.960 I think that that helps them number one too, you know, 213 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:49.360 I mean, and their perspective is, you know, they don't 214 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:52.159 know what's gonna happen with this, and you know, certainly 215 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:55.799 if things go sideways and things go down the tubes, 216 00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:57.799 they want to just sort of make sure they've confirmed 217 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:01.519 what you've said. You know, right now, they're on our 218 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:04.360 side on this, I have no doubt about that. But 219 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:07.960 you know, just in case they never, you know, they never, 220 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:10.879 you know, can be careful enough. And number three, let 221 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:12.320 me tell you this other thing I think I touched 222 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:15.559 on at once is it's one thing you know, when 223 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:18.639 I guess you hear about, oh, you know, this is 224 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:21.480 what happened in your case, Like if these investigators they've 225 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:23.600 been working it, they've been wondering, and it haunts them, 226 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:25.399 you know, it does. I've had a case like that, 227 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:30.480 always have the wonder, you know, what happened, And I 228 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.159 think it helps them ebe psychologically to kind of ask 229 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:35.600 the questions themselves that they've been wanting to ask since 230 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:37.759 day one, since they've been trying to you know, be 231 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:39.120 orize what happened here. 232 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:41.879 So sometimes it's just like, you know. 233 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:43.960 Hey, let's all play together type of thing. I think 234 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:46.440 it helps keep them, you know, on board. When they 235 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:48.639 get to ask these questions, they feel like they're engaged, 236 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:51.399 they feel like they're more part of the team, which 237 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:53.200 they are, you know, as long as we're going with 238 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:57.320 that letter, right, I have no concerns about them. I've 239 00:11:57.320 --> 00:12:00.159 been talking to the attorney over there, Mary Morrisey. I 240 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:02.399 talked to her right before we got in here. The 241 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:04.879 people in that room, I think we can even clarify 242 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:07.480 we're all going to be sort of bound by that letter. 243 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:09.879 And you can make that clear if you want the outset, 244 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.200 you figure out who's in the room. But everybody in there, 245 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:17.759 we've been assured. You know that they're not going off 246 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:19.639 the deep end. Otherwise we'd never be doing this. 247 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:20.600 We don't want to. 248 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:21.240 Screw up right. 249 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:22.039 Anything that works. 250 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:25.600 Yeah, No, I can understand like the house, the crime 251 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:27.919 scene and releasing that that makes sense to me. 252 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:30.960 The rest of it, I'm a little bit leery about, like. 253 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:33.480 If there if they're going to ask me specific questions, 254 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.200 they're basically going to have me recap the crime and 255 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:40.519 the motive and you know what happened blow by blow. 256 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:42.440 I don't I don't know if I want to get 257 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:45.919 into all that. I because I don't know if I 258 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:50.879 trust them with that information. But if they just want 259 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:54.080 to if they just want confirmation that I'm the right guy, 260 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:56.320 if they just want details on the house or the 261 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:59.559 crime scene, like the house itself, without going into what 262 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:00.720 happened in there and. 263 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:04.720 The vehicle with another thing, you know, describe the vehicle 264 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:06.639 that kind of thing like colors in the house. 265 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:06.960 You know. 266 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.200 It just kind of helps them, I think, and I 267 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.120 know Officer Bell talk to them just to make sure 268 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:13.240 because they give us an out lot. You know, we 269 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:16.879 basically said, here's what we you know, we think is 270 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.120 probably relevant for you, and here's what we think in 271 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:21.519 Igra will be uncomfortable with. So it's not like they're 272 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:24.000 just going off on their own right and doing this. 273 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.200 And we told them quite frankly, hey, you know you 274 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:29.159 can ask the questions all you want, you may not 275 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:30.120 get all the answers. 276 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:31.399 Right. 277 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:34.600 Hey, it's Josh and I am here to talk to 278 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:40.399 you about skincare. 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Studio both and is sponsored by Better Help. 306 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.080 We talk about mental health openly now quite a bit, 307 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:32.159 but asking for help can still feel really hard, and 308 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:36.279 Better Help's latest research confirms that Better Helps. Twenty twenty 309 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:39.960 six State of Stigma Report survey two thousand Americans and 310 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.320 revealed that eighty five percent of Americans believe that getting 311 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:48.360 support is wise, and yet seventy four percent say society 312 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.639 discourages people from doing so. And I can say I've 313 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:54.440 seen this reflected in my own life with my own friends. 314 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:57.720 So many talk about how they should see a therapist 315 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:00.519 or want to see a therapist, and yet so few 316 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.240 actually do take those steps to see a therapist. I 317 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.919 cannot recommend better Help enough. I've talked about it a 318 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:12.120 lot over the years. It has made my life better, easier, 319 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:15.799 less complicated. It's made me a better communicator. It's given 320 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.320 me way more patience. I could go on and on 321 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:21.039 and on. We talk about how important mental health is. 322 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.679 Everyone agrees we should see a therapist, So why aren't 323 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:27.639 you don't let stigma stand in the way of support? 324 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:31.279 Start therapy with better Help. Sign up and get ten 325 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:36.000 percent off at betterhelp dot com. Slash tcb that's better. 326 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:41.480 H g LP dot com slash tcb, Okay. 327 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:41.759 That's fine. 328 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.279 Yeah, I just want to And we told them that 329 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:44.960 you're pretty clear. 330 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.039 If you don't want to answer something, you're pretty much 331 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:49.440 gonna say yeah, okay, it's bad. 332 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:52.919 So they don't have any expectations of you know. 333 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:54.879 All right, doesn't mean they won't try. 334 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.240 I mean we've tried, all right. 335 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.039 The investigator just wants some owner have been his own investigation. 336 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:06.519 As the investigator had heard all the interviews. 337 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:10.240 He's listened to one I think in its entirety, which 338 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:12.079 is one that we did several. 339 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:13.640 Weeks more, just you and I, and. 340 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.319 So they know the I don't think they're going to 341 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.319 ask you detailed questions because they know them, okay, and some. 342 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:20.799 Of the other things. 343 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:23.279 And that's why if they're asking questions that are you know, 344 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:25.319 the things you talked about before, they may not have 345 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.240 heard the other ones because you talked about a bunch 346 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:30.720 of different things, and those right there know what they 347 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:32.559 have access to over there. I think I know they 348 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:35.039 had access to this one because you know, that was 349 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:36.680 sort of the time when we gotten. 350 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.119 So they don't all they basically had to sit there 351 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:41.359 with an FBI agent, and they would let them listen 352 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:41.839 to that one. 353 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:43.400 They don't have access to anything else. 354 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:47.319 Right now, right, that's okay, all right, all right, makes sense. 355 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:51.319 So who is Lieutenant Murdy? Is the guy who's gonna 356 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:51.960 be asking the questions? 357 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:53.440 We can call I think it's m U R T 358 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:53.799 I E. 359 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:59.880 Murdy so we can identify you. I don't it's a two. 360 00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:06.960 You got to do nine to one, yeah. 361 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:08.440 Six five two. 362 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:12.799 I guess you don't want to do nine one? Yeah, 363 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:17.200 you do. 364 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:20.960 Six five two three nine? Out there you go. 365 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:27.000 You can marry more to the story's office. I'm not 366 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:28.599 a aable to take a call right now. If you're 367 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:30.079 a good message, I'll try to get back to as 368 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:31.880 soon as I can. Thank you very much, and have 369 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:32.400 a nice day. 370 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:35.240 Call. 371 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:38.519 Was gonna leave one saying okay, this was Ankridge. You 372 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:39.200 missed our call. 373 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.839 Okay, Hey, Mary's Frank. 374 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:54.359 We're trying to call you on the desk line. 375 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:55.960 Okay, we'll call right now. 376 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:03.839 Okay, be that Lucky Morsey. 377 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:09.799 Hey Mary, it's Frank Russo, Jeff Bell, Steve Payne, and 378 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.119 the Israel Keys here. 379 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:12.680 Thank you. 380 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:17.079 I'm here in my office in Vermont with Lieutenant George Murdy, 381 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.960 who is in charge of the Courier investigation for the 382 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:21.039 Essex Police Department. 383 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.799 Okay, and just to clarify one thing that mister Keys 384 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:29.640 was concerned about before we got in here, I just 385 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.920 wanted to confirm that, uh, basically, the uh you know, 386 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.839 the letter that he saw last meeting, I mean that 387 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:38.359 applies to Lieutenant Murdy too. 388 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.519 You guys are all under one umbrella, so to speak. 389 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:46.079 That is correct, the letter that I sent or the 390 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:47.240 provided to you that I. 391 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:48.759 Believe you've given to mister Keith. 392 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.400 But what buyd Chittman County, including all of the departments 393 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.720 within Chipman County. How our system works is that we 394 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:00.119 don't have town prosecutors. We have a county prosecutor. So 395 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.720 my office is the prosecutor. 396 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:02.880 For chitten County. 397 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.240 Is nobody else to file charges in Chindon County but 398 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:09.079 us and the Attorney General's office and the limited circumstances. 399 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.240 But they're not part of this investigation. They don't know 400 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:12.279 and been unaware of this. 401 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:18.119 Okay, fair enough, there's really all your questions before we 402 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:18.759 get started. 403 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:20.799 Now, I'm good. 404 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:23.279 The one thing you should know is that obviously Lieutenant 405 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:26.200 Murdy also has been spent some majority of his time 406 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:28.119 at the dumb site. He could probably give you a 407 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:30.559 better picture of what's going on there if you want. 408 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:33.559 At the end, you know, he sort of knows what 409 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:34.519 he's dealing with out. 410 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:36.480 There, and maybe you guys just introduced yourself to him 411 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:38.359 and let you know is let him know who you are. 412 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:42.200 Yes, my name is Mary Morrisey. I'm a prosecutor in 413 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:43.359 chitten And County. 414 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:45.400 I'm the Chief Deputy. 415 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:45.920 Of Major Crimes. 416 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.319 I've been working on this case with Lieutenant Murdy since 417 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:52.839 the morning that the Curviers were reported missing last June. 418 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:55.400 So I've been a signed to this case since that 419 00:20:55.599 --> 00:21:01.799 day and I've been in the office for over taketeen years. 420 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.599 Mister Keys, should I call you Israel or would you 421 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:12.160 rather call you mister Keys Israel? Okay, and call me George. 422 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:16.759 I'm a detective lieutenant at the Essex Police Department in 423 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:22.160 charge of the Criminal Investigation Unit. Our police department is 424 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.480 as you might imagine a small town. We have twenty 425 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.559 seven officers in our police department. I've been there twenty 426 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:34.640 eight years and frankly, I have never seen anything like this. 427 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.880 So if I don't appear to have everything totally at 428 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:45.400 my command. Please understand that I have been the case 429 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:51.440 manager of the Courier case since June, and I have 430 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.480 some questions regarding the house and the car that from 431 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:02.200 what I understand and communicating with with Frank and uh 432 00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.079 and Jeff and Steve, they tell me that you're willing 433 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:12.119 to help me corroborate some details and get some information 434 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:18.480 from you that will let me know that obviously you 435 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:21.160 are the person who has been in the house and 436 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:24.319 in the car, and you know things that nobody else 437 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:26.480 would know unless they have been in that position. Is 438 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:32.440 that correct? Yes, that's correct. Okay, thank you. I mean, 439 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:34.279 do you want to start out by hearing about commentry 440 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:40.000 or are you interested in that? But yeah, that's yeah, 441 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:45.599 we can start with that. Okay, let's see today will 442 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:52.160 conclude our fourth week up there. They, as you probably know, 443 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:57.160 they demolished the house that you had referred to in 444 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:05.559 late October, and obviously it wasn't until April that that 445 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:09.359 that we found out that this had been the I 446 00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:14.359 guess the the place where those people were left. So 447 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:23.000 fortunately the landfilling commentry, which is gigantic, as kept they 448 00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:28.359 keep engineered records of where all their trash goes, and 449 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:31.599 I mean, this is stuff I never thought of when 450 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.720 I thought of dump. But they take aerial photographs, they 451 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:40.240 do GPS so and the dates, the probable dates that 452 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:46.039 that trash were dumped, had been recorded and placed in 453 00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:50.200 record as to a specific area where they would be. Now, 454 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:54.079 having said that they keep good records, the area that's 455 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:58.640 possible is at least the size of a football field, 456 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:07.440 and it is. It is probably a good six feet deep. 457 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:12.359 They mix in all sorts of nasty stuff to help 458 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:16.960 decomposition in that area. And what we have to do 459 00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:20.079 is we have to rely on heavy equipment to dig 460 00:24:20.119 --> 00:24:23.440 all this stuff up, lay it out on a flat area, 461 00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:28.240 and we have to go through it with rakes basically, 462 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.359 and it is it's a very very it's like an 463 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:36.279 archaeological dig sort of, and it kind of is in 464 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:40.640 a lot of ways. We had a forensic anthropologist who 465 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:44.359 work for the Smithsonian Institute up there advising us on 466 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:49.359 the best way to go about this. And we at 467 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:53.640 this point todate, after four weeks, have probably cleared from 468 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:58.640 like twenty to twenty five percent of that area. So, 469 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:02.640 I mean, could could we find those people tomorrow? Well, 470 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.480 I mean the next Monday. Yeah, but it could also 471 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.680 take another six weeks. So you know, it's if you 472 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:13.759 can get a picture. It's a it's not a great 473 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:16.480 job to have, but you know, obviously it's something that 474 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.440 needs to get done, all right. 475 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:20.279 I appreciate that. 476 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.160 Any any questions about that or anything else that before 477 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:26.559 I start asking you about the house and stuff. 478 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:31.720 How many people do you have working sorting through the 479 00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:35.400 trash that's dug up, and who are are they? Are 480 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:39.000 they with your local police department or are they specifically 481 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:41.960 trained for that or what. I'm just curious how many 482 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:44.519 people know what's being searched for. 483 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:51.559 And we we have people from from my agency. Probably 484 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:55.240 at any given time, I have two people that I 485 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:57.960 can put up there. Usually it's myself and another person, 486 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:02.400 and have one person that I can rotate it. And 487 00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:08.880 now the Vermont State Police usually puts about five people 488 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:13.039 into that mix, and the FBI puts in about twenty people. 489 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:18.680 So we have probably twenty five people going in a 490 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:22.039 line through the through the trash that's been laid out. 491 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.000 What they are told at the briefing is that they 492 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:32.480 are searching for the remains of the couriers that you know, 493 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:37.480 that's that's basically it. So they're not given case details specifically. 494 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:42.319 You know, occasionally some of the folks have been involved 495 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:45.359 from the FBI and may have been involved in other 496 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.799 aspects of the investigation, so they, you know, they might 497 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:54.319 have more detail, but I think everything's being kept pretty quiet. 498 00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:59.160 My understanding from talking to Jeff and Steve is one 499 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:03.359 of your major concerns about your name coming up in 500 00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:09.400 the media or anything to expose you to, you know, 501 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:15.240 to the connection to this. So I think we're certainly 502 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:20.000 well aware of that here in in our office, but 503 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:21.880 I think the FBI is trying to keep a tight 504 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:24.319 lid on that even in their own office as well. 505 00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:27.480 All Right, I appreciate that, and I don't have any 506 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:28.400 other questions about it. 507 00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:35.200 Okay, Now, I did listen to your interview that was 508 00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:38.839 recorded on May eighth, where you go into most of 509 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:44.279 the details about going into the house and and taking 510 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:48.079 those people away and going up to the farmhouse. But 511 00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:53.279 you know, I guess, I guess every time you hear something, 512 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:57.839 it sparks another four or five questions. So please bear 513 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:01.680 with me if I ask something you feel you've already answered. 514 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.079 Now you've you mentioned in your interview that you said 515 00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:12.440 you checked out the neighborhood where the house was prior 516 00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:16.920 to I guess, to gaining entry to that. Can you 517 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:19.680 explain a little bit more about what you meant by 518 00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:23.599 checking checking out the neighborhood and was it in daylight 519 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:26.880 or was it just before you you actually made entry. 520 00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:34.839 I was walking around the general neighborhood and getting a layout, 521 00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:37.559 and it was it was just prior. It was probably 522 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:42.839 between the hours of about nine pm and the time 523 00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.880 that I actually went into the house. 524 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:51.440 Okay, it so it sounds probably was just getting dark 525 00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:53.440 or was it dark at the time it was dark? 526 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:55.319 Do you remember the weather? 527 00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:59.039 It was raining? It was raining really hard that night. 528 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:02.200 Okay? Was it raining when you checked it out, because. 529 00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:07.240 I believe the at the time that I had chosen 530 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:14.000 that neighborhood, the rain had stopped and it was just 531 00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:17.000 really damp out, really wet. 532 00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:24.440 Okay, all right, And you know, knowing knowing that neighborhood, 533 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:29.319 Uh it was. It's I don't know. I guess it 534 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:32.319 was a little surprising to me how how little room 535 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:36.839 uh you know, between houses. Uh does that concern you 536 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:37.240 at all? 537 00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:44.000 Well, it did concern me. I I was after I 538 00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:47.400 had picked out that house. I stayed in the in 539 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:51.720 the backyard for several hours, probably at least a couple hours, 540 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:59.799 waiting till the rest of the neighborhood had gone to sleep. 541 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:06.839 Okay, Now had you had you seen those two people 542 00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:11.720 at any time when you were checking out the neighborhood 543 00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:14.839 or anything any time before you entered the house? 544 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:16.000 No? 545 00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:21.000 Okay, So so it's like when you were Okay, no 546 00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:22.720 means no, So I guess so, I guess you didn't 547 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:25.400 see them at the like the pharmacy, or that the 548 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:28.759 at home well actually wasn't a home depot a low 549 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:32.720 but you know these are. They're some of their favorite 550 00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:34.359 places to go to. So I didn't know if you'd 551 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:37.519 seen them then and connected them to the house. 552 00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:43.640 No, I it was the The house was picked on 553 00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:46.279 the basis of the design of the house, not on 554 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:50.160 my assumption who might be inside. 555 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:51.720 Really, Okay. 556 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:56.319 What I love most about summer is how easy everything feels. 557 00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:59.680 The days are more relaxed. I find myself reaching for 558 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:03.519 the same comfortable, go anywhere pieces again and again, and 559 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:06.759 that's why I love coming back to quints. They focus 560 00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:10.759 on well made essentials that naturally become those everyday staples 561 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:14.240 you live in all season long, and I have been 562 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.720 coming back to Quince again and again. I've now purchased 563 00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:21.839 several of their one hundred percent organic cotton meshed stitch 564 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.319 button up polos for forty four ninety. They look great. 565 00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:27.759 You can wear them around the house or out with friends. 566 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:31.640 They feel good and they're breathable. I've also purchased now 567 00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:36.799 several of their Japanese Lotus teas for just twenty nine ninety. 568 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:39.279 They have a really good weight to them, the material 569 00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:43.400 feels wonderful and they are timeless. Quins is one hundred 570 00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:47.119 percent European linen. Pants and shirts are breatheable, they're easy 571 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:50.480 to throw on, and the summer upgrade that your rotation needs, 572 00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.640 and they start at just thirty four dollars. Everything at 573 00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:57.240 Quint's is priced fifty to eighty percent less than similar brands. 574 00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:01.039 They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman, 575 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:04.359 so you're paying for exceptional quality and not brand markup. 576 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.480 And it's not just clothing. As we've discussed, Quin's has 577 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.480 become a trusted favorite for everything from home to travel 578 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:14.440 to everyday essentials. So make your summer wardrobe easier. Go 579 00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:18.119 to Quinns dot com slash TCBs for free shipping on 580 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:21.839 your order and three hundred sixty five day returns now 581 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:26.039 available in Canada too. That's q u i Ncee dot 582 00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:30.640 com slash TCBs for free shipping and three hundred sixty 583 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:34.920 five day returns quins dot com slash TCBs. 584 00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:39.079 And I know you'd been in Vermont at least one 585 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:43.480 other time. Uh, have you ever started formulating your plan 586 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:46.119 the fact that back as early as in or is 587 00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:49.960 this something that I wondered if you were familiar with 588 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.920 this neighborhood from the from your prior visit to Vermont. 589 00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:58.000 I had never been in that specific neighborhood before I was. 590 00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:05.920 I'm familiar with the entire area in general, but not 591 00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:07.519 not that neighborhood specifically. 592 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:15.359 Now you have family or friends are in the ansect area. No, okay, 593 00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:20.359 let's see when you were in the backyard you mentioned 594 00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:24.960 a swimming pool. Are there other items in the backyard 595 00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:27.799 that you could tell me that that you remember that 596 00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:30.880 would corroborate that you knew his backyard. 597 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:37.359 There was a storage shed in the back left hand 598 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:38.319 corner of the yard. 599 00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:40.400 There was a. 600 00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:44.400 It was a pretty secluded backyard. I believe it had 601 00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.880 either an allier road access on the back and. 602 00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:50.920 It was. 603 00:33:53.680 --> 00:34:01.519 Fairly well secluded from the neighbors on either side. 604 00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:03.960 There were I. 605 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:08.400 Believe it was plastic patio furniture that was on the 606 00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:12.519 back deck. It was an above ground swimming pool, so 607 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:16.880 they had a pretty elaborate deck set up and sliding 608 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:20.480 glass door on the back and I used one of 609 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:24.960 the plastic patio chairs to get into the garage window. 610 00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:28.480 Oh okay, so you moved it around to the side 611 00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.599 of the house where the garage window is. 612 00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:32.559 Yeah. 613 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:35.920 There was a fan, a fan running for ventilation in 614 00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:38.599 that window, and that's how I got into the garage. 615 00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:41.760 Okay, Now do you remember what you did with that fan? 616 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:43.880 Did you put it inside the garage or did you 617 00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:47.360 put it outside? Would you do with it? I believe 618 00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:48.000 I set it. 619 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:51.559 I think I had turned it off and I set 620 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:56.480 it inside, and then I believe when I left the house, 621 00:34:56.519 --> 00:34:59.960 I put it back in the window and pretty much 622 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:02.960 everything set up the way it was when I found it. 623 00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:12.079 Okay, Yeah, now in the garage, Well, let me see 624 00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.639 if I got this straight. You were in the backyard 625 00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:18.119 for a couple of hours or or saw a fairly 626 00:35:18.199 --> 00:35:21.880 lengthy period of time, just kind of waiting to see 627 00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:25.920 what happens. At some point in your interview, you mentioned 628 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:31.440 neighbors coming or a neighbor coming out. Was that when 629 00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:32.800 you were in the garage or when you were in 630 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:33.440 the backyard. 631 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:39.199 I was in the backyard, I believe when I when 632 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:42.559 I started noticing that that neighbor was awaken, that they 633 00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:44.000 were coming out. 634 00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:47.800 Okay, now is it? Is it the same side of 635 00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:52.599 the street, on the house, on the same side as 636 00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:56.280 the garage, right? Yeah, okay, all right, gotcha, because I 637 00:35:56.360 --> 00:36:00.559 know they're Did you see anybody else in the neighborhood? 638 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.320 There's just like the only person at the time that 639 00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:08.320 that was the only person I saw. They they had 640 00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:14.679 motion activated security lights, and they had a large dog 641 00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:17.639 that was being let out of the house from time 642 00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:22.199 to time, and I believe it was a Golden Retriever 643 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:26.239 or something. And there was a younger, middle aged guy 644 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.960 who was coming out to smoke every now and then. 645 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:31.760 And I had already decided that I was going through 646 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:34.559 the garage window, but I was concerned about him coming 647 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:38.360 out when I was actually going in that that way, 648 00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:43.599 and so I remember I was I timed it so 649 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:46.840 that I either went in through the garage, either right 650 00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:49.400 after he had gone back into the house after a 651 00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:54.719 smoke break, or I had timed it to where it 652 00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:57.280 seemed like he had gone to bed wasn't up anymore. 653 00:36:57.320 --> 00:36:57.599 I don't. 654 00:36:57.639 --> 00:36:59.559 I don't remember exactly when I first went. 655 00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:00.599 Into the garage, but. 656 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:05.559 I remember once I was in the garage and unlocked 657 00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:07.840 the back door, I held off for quite a while 658 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.239 before actually breaking into the house. 659 00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:10.639 Uh. 660 00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:16.320 I I unlocked the back door to the to the garage, 661 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:24.000 the man door that went into the backyard, and after. 662 00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:23.719 That I was able to come and. 663 00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:26.679 Go from the garage without having to go through the window. 664 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:32.880 Okay, uh, Now when you're in the garage, their cars 665 00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.480 they're right. Yeah. And did you notice anything unusual in 666 00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:38.519 the garage itself? 667 00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:45.599 No, I mean it was dark in the garage. It 668 00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:51.800 seemed like a pretty typical garage. There was, Yeah, I didn't. 669 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.119 I had a light with me, but I wasn't. I 670 00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:57.960 wasn't using it that much because because there are still 671 00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:00.239 people up around and I. 672 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:05.199 Don't know stuff. Could you see out the garage door, I. 673 00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:07.280 Don't remember if it had windows in it or not. 674 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:15.679 And we we So you mentioned a crowbar that you 675 00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:21.719 took off a foot to smash the window leading into 676 00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:22.920 the house. Is that correct? 677 00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:27.079 Yeah, it was about a twenty four inch crowbar. 678 00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:29.440 I think it was hanging on the back wall of 679 00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:31.599 the garage, to the left of the man door. 680 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:36.639 David, did you were there any other crowbars there that 681 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:37.360 you recalled? 682 00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:40.360 It seems like there were a few other tools around. 683 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:43.519 There may have been another crowbar, hammer or something. 684 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:46.880 I don't know, all right, did you try to fry 685 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:49.760 the door at all to gain entry or did you 686 00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:51.159 just use the window? 687 00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:57.079 Well, it had a storm It had a storm door 688 00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:02.480 that was locked on on the exterior of the of 689 00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:07.360 the standard door, and I was able to to pry 690 00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:12.320 the lock of the storm door with my knife, and 691 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:15.199 I was I was thinking that I was actually surprised 692 00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:18.440 that the other door was locked as well, but it 693 00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:20.480 was a dead bolt lock, so I knew there wasn't 694 00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:22.920 There wasn't any way I was going to be able 695 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:29.039 to to jimmy that lock without without breaking the windows. 696 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:34.039 So okay, So so that's something a little new to 697 00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:37.559 me that that you I talked that when you got 698 00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:40.559 into the window in through the window into the garage, 699 00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:45.400 that you were able to just unlock the door going 700 00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:51.639 out into the backyard. Uh yeah, okay, So I don't 701 00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:55.119 understand which door you you pried with your knife. There 702 00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:57.320 was a storm door. 703 00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:00.840 Between the kitchen and the garage. 704 00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:03.920 Okay, that's the one year you were able to pry 705 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:04.400 with the knight. 706 00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:05.840 Yeah, they had it locked. 707 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:09.000 It was a a pretty low quality lock on those 708 00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:11.719 storm doors, gotcha. 709 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:14.559 Okay, now I understand what you're telling me is you're 710 00:40:14.599 --> 00:40:18.559 able to pry the door on the doorno lock. And 711 00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:22.000 then it was also a dead full lock attached to that, right. 712 00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:26.119 And once I discovered that there was a there was 713 00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:29.280 a dead bolt lock on the on the kitchen door, 714 00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:31.519 and I knew I would have to break the window. 715 00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:33.519 I knew it was going to be loud, so I 716 00:40:33.559 --> 00:40:37.800 decided to wait another hour or two and to make 717 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.760 sure that all the neighbors were asleeper inside. 718 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:42.719 And and that's why I ended. 719 00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:45.960 Up unlocking the back door of the garage and just 720 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:48.599 hanging out in the backyard for a while till I 721 00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:49.639 got a little bit later. 722 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:56.199 Okay, And all right, so so you get into the house, 723 00:40:57.159 --> 00:41:00.280 you put the light on it like as you going 724 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:04.159 into the house, or do you can you like I'm wondering, 725 00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.320 can you see things at that time or or do 726 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:09.639 you just make a rush rout down the hallway. 727 00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:12.800 I had my headlamp on. 728 00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:16.880 You mentioned that you were wearing a mask. 729 00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:21.159 I probably was, though, just over my mouth. 730 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:25.719 Yeah, okay, I'm just a little curious as to, I 731 00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:30.519 guess knowing what your intentions were, uh, why you felt 732 00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:31.360 you needed a mask. 733 00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:38.880 I I was mostly had the mask on for the 734 00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:41.159 time that I was in the backyard in case. I 735 00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.960 don't know, if someone spotted me or someone had cameras. 736 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:47.840 I don't know. I just I just once I decided 737 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:53.320 to see Now, can you tell me what you what 738 00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:57.000 you recalled about the house? Uh, just kind of describe 739 00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:02.239 you inside. Yeah, there was. 740 00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:08.800 Immediately through the door from the garage into the kitchen. 741 00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:12.639 I believe there was a refrigerator right there, and then 742 00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:17.480 you had to take a little bit of a left 743 00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:19.079 to go through the kitchen. 744 00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:20.119 And then. 745 00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:25.039 I knew it would I knew it would be pretty 746 00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:28.000 much a straight shot down the hallway to the bedroom. 747 00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:32.400 I already knew what bedroom they were in, so so 748 00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:37.599 I was only checking briefly, like looking left and right 749 00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:39.639 into the rooms as I passed them on the way 750 00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:42.719 to the bedroom to make sure there wasn't anybody else 751 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:49.079 in those rooms. And I believe it was a three 752 00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:49.880 bedroom house. 753 00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:52.480 But when you when you bedroom, were they in. 754 00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:57.920 Well as you were if you're standing on the street 755 00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:01.599 facing their house, they were in the bedroom in the 756 00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:02.960 front right hand corner. 757 00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:08.760 Okay. You you mentioned that it's a three bedroom house, 758 00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:15.400 and you're you're correct. So were they both in the 759 00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:22.559 same bedroom? Yes? Okay, because it did after you you'd tied 760 00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:28.159 him up or incapacitated whatever. Uh you mentioned that you 761 00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:32.079 go through the house. Is it is that, Craig? Yes? Okay. 762 00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:33.920 Did you go into all the other rooms? 763 00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:35.199 Yes? 764 00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:36.840 And did you go downstairs? 765 00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:38.239 No? 766 00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:43.679 Okay? So you never even looked into the basement. 767 00:43:44.599 --> 00:43:47.000 I honestly, I was not even aware there was a basement. 768 00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:53.000 Okay. Do you recall going into the bathroom. 769 00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:57.519 I'm sure I went in the bathroom. I don't really 770 00:43:57.800 --> 00:43:59.920 remember anything. 771 00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:04.599 And now that I'm kind of recalling you to the bathroom, 772 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:09.840 there anything stick out about it that it seemed a 773 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:10.719 little unusual? 774 00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:12.679 No? 775 00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:17.599 No, you remember color by any chance? No? I don't. 776 00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:19.880 I don't remember the color of the bathroom. I believe 777 00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:21.840 the only reason I looked into the bathroom. 778 00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:24.400 Was I may have. 779 00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:27.760 I may have checked the medicine cabinet or something, but 780 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:29.159 I don't I don't remember. 781 00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.840 In your interview you mentioned that they might have had 782 00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:35.320 some prescriptions like byke it In or a Percoset or 783 00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:39.719 something like that. I mean, does that ring a bell 784 00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:45.159 with you? Yeah? And you you take that, you take 785 00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:46.280 those medications. 786 00:44:46.519 --> 00:44:49.880 I don't take them personally. No, I took some from 787 00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:51.639 the house. Yes, would you. 788 00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:55.119 Would you sell them or what? What? I guess it 789 00:44:55.159 --> 00:45:00.400 doesn't really matter, But would you mind telling me? U? Really? 790 00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:01.400 I guess. 791 00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:04.400 I guess my thought was that I might sell them. 792 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:04.760 I don't know. 793 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:06.840 I don't really do that kind of stuff. I just 794 00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:10.679 grabbed them because I because they were there, And I 795 00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:12.880 mean I was, I was grabbing a lot of different stuff. 796 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:20.559 So okay, and when you're I never mind that. Okay. 797 00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:26.360 So let's so they're in the they're in the fire bedroom, 798 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:32.559 and so now there you mentioned that they were on 799 00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:36.800 the bed in your interview and they're I guess trusted 800 00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:45.320 up with with these cable ties. Yes, okay, And so 801 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:48.239 at this point you feel comfortable to go through the 802 00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:52.840 rest of the house, and you mentioned grabbing some suitcases. 803 00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:57.320 Do you recall where you got those suitcases from? 804 00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:00.960 I believe they were in the bedroom directly joining the 805 00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:04.719 bedroom that they were sleeping in. I believe they were 806 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:08.360 in a closet and there was a chest of drawers 807 00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.960 and a lot of other miscellaneous household items in that room. 808 00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:21.079 You remember there was one one item there that was 809 00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:26.960 fairly large, and I wondered if you remembered what that 810 00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:28.519 was next to the bed. 811 00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:33.559 Next to the bed in the room they were sleeping 812 00:46:33.559 --> 00:46:38.320 in the room. No, I don't. I remember it was 813 00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:39.320 a crowded bedroom. 814 00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:45.119 And okay, but tell me this. You mentioned finding military 815 00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:49.000 documents from Bill Currier. Is that is that the room 816 00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:52.519 you found him in? Yes, okay, and where were they? 817 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:56.400 They weren't documents, but I think I did see some 818 00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:00.559 uniform patches or maybe some insignia and metals that were 819 00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:03.119 in chest of drawers there that I went through. 820 00:47:03.400 --> 00:47:07.360 Okay, all right, all right, and that's the same you're 821 00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:10.559 telling me that's the same room where the suitcases were, right, yeah, 822 00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:16.719 I believe. So, Okay, Now, Lorraine's lingerie, that is where's that? 823 00:47:19.159 --> 00:47:22.679 I believe I got that from a couple of different 824 00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:24.280 spots in the house. I know I got some of 825 00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:28.079 it from that same chest of drawers in that adjoining. 826 00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:31.119 Bedroom, okay, anywhere else. 827 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:34.480 Possibly from the room they were sleeping in as well. 828 00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:39.039 Okay, and you put those in the suitcase. 829 00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:41.280 Yeah, I put everything in the suitcases. 830 00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:50.320 All right. Let's see bear with me for a minute. 831 00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:54.480 There's a room, the room on the other side of 832 00:47:54.480 --> 00:48:00.480 the hall. Yeah, tell me what you remember about that room. 833 00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:03.039 There was a bird cage in it with a blanket 834 00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:07.320 over it. Was there a bed in there? I don't 835 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.000 remember if there was a bed or a large desk. Again, 836 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:11.719 it was a crowded room. It seems like there were 837 00:48:11.800 --> 00:48:13.360 quite a few quite a bit of stuff in it. 838 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:17.719 And I just did I I remember, I got a 839 00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:21.599 quick idea of what might be in that room, and 840 00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:23.559 I didn't I didn't really go through it that much. 841 00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:25.440 I didn't really figure there would be anything in there. 842 00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:31.159 So, okay, so tell me this you're looking it tells me. 843 00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:35.920 I mean, you've already got this worked out in your head, 844 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.000 and you know what you're looking for when you go 845 00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:42.199 into the house. So I mean, by by the time 846 00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:45.320 you go through these other places, have you already found 847 00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:50.119 what you wanted to find or are you exploring for 848 00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:52.920 things that might interest you or do you already know 849 00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:54.760 what you're what you're looking for? 850 00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:05.039 Well, everything else that I took was pretty inconsequential. 851 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:07.880 Anything else I was looking for was I already. 852 00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:10.639 I already had an idea of the things I might 853 00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:13.480 find in the house, which is why I didn't really 854 00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:19.320 go through it that thoroughly. If I had had the 855 00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:23.800 impression that there were more things of value in the house, 856 00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:25.920 I would have gone through it more thoroughly. But everything 857 00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:28.920 I found pointed me to the direction that I wasn't 858 00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:31.880 going to find anything else of interest to me. 859 00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:35.960 So the main reason I was there for was, you know, 860 00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:36.760 was for them. 861 00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:41.840 So that's not yeah, okay, Now I know you're a carpenter. 862 00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:45.960 Do do you build houses? Yes? Okay, So I mean 863 00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:49.679 you know, basically style a house and what you can 864 00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:54.360 expect to find from a construction aspect and all that stuff. 865 00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:59.360 So it sounds to me like nothing in the house 866 00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:02.519 really surprised you. 867 00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:05.000 No, I don't remember seeing anything unusual. It seemed like 868 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:07.320 a pretty typical ranch style house to me. 869 00:50:07.880 --> 00:50:11.159 Okay, all right, And and in your interview you mentioned 870 00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:17.079 that you got jewelry that that wasn't didn't look like 871 00:50:17.159 --> 00:50:21.920 valuable jewelry. Uh? You you actually you got a couple 872 00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:27.320 of shell phones? Is that right? Yes? And what did 873 00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:31.559 you did you take? Like the guy's wallet or the 874 00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:34.840 woman's handbook or any pocketbook or anything like that. 875 00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:37.360 Yeah, there was a large It seemed like all of 876 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:46.400 their financial cards and I identifications and everything. It seems 877 00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:49.199 like all that was in one wallet. 878 00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:53.840 Okay, and that's the one that you took away with you. 879 00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:57.280 Did you ask them about how much money they had 880 00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:00.079 in the wallet and the pin numbers and all that? 881 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:01.280 Yes? 882 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:04.679 I did, okay? And what did they tell you? 883 00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:08.559 I got my main objective. 884 00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:13.400 My main concern wasn't with how much money they had 885 00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:14.079 in their accounts. 886 00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:15.079 It was to make sure that. 887 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:18.440 They had given me the correct ten number for their card. 888 00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:21.800 Okay. Did you ever try to access that? No? I 889 00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:24.679 don't think so. To keep it, well, is that one 890 00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:27.119 of the things you got rid of? But was the 891 00:51:27.159 --> 00:51:28.679 New Hampshire or did you get rid of that in 892 00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:31.079 the dumpster at the place you were staying. 893 00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:34.239 No, the card, the card and the phones I didn't 894 00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:36.440 get rid of till New Hampshire. 895 00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:43.079 Okay, Well, let's talk about their car. If if you 896 00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:46.719 don't mind, you need a break or anything. No, I'm fine, 897 00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:55.480 Am I you got? Are you okay with it so far? Yeah? 898 00:51:55.519 --> 00:51:56.639 This is fine? O. 899 00:51:56.760 --> 00:52:02.599 Good. So you know, obviously they weren't driving a Bentley. 900 00:52:03.199 --> 00:52:07.800 Uh you would you mentioned that it's a it's a 901 00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:11.679 Saturn and two door four door? 902 00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:15.719 I believe it was a four door Sedan. 903 00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:20.840 Okay, And I think you mentioned accessing the trunk. So 904 00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:26.760 did you do any preparation to the car before you 905 00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:32.719 put them in or had you already checked out the car? Yeah? 906 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:33.119 I had. 907 00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:35.920 Yeah, I checked out the car pretty thoroughly before I 908 00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:37.599 even decided to break into the house. 909 00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:41.679 Okay, Now, did you adjust seats or anything like that? 910 00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:45.920 I'm assuming that you knew where you wanted to put 911 00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:47.960 the woman where you wanted to put the guy. 912 00:52:48.679 --> 00:52:50.000 Yes, did you? 913 00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:53.639 Did you? Did you adjust the seats to to make 914 00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:55.519 that happen? Or yeah? 915 00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:57.639 I did have to adjust the seats I think. 916 00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:06.559 Okay. And so it's these people are tied up, but 917 00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:12.360 I'm assuming hands and feet. Do you cut their feet 918 00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:15.800 loose or something to make it so they can walk 919 00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:16.480 out to the car. 920 00:53:19.559 --> 00:53:21.519 Their feet weren't tied when I walked them out to 921 00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:22.039 the car. 922 00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:26.679 Now, Okay? Did they have anything on their feet? 923 00:53:28.519 --> 00:53:31.760 Not until I had them in the car. 924 00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:37.559 Okay, No, I don't mean tying. My thought is you 925 00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.119 broke the window to get into that house, and now 926 00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:42.320 you're going to take these folks out to the car. 927 00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:48.320 Did they just walk barefoot across this broken glass? No? 928 00:53:48.480 --> 00:53:50.480 I think I let them put on some slippers. 929 00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:56.480 Okay, all right? And so I mean, am I corrected 930 00:53:56.599 --> 00:53:58.719 that their feet were tied up and that you must 931 00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:01.559 have had to untie them to enable them to walk 932 00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:02.000 to the car. 933 00:54:03.239 --> 00:54:05.440 No, their feet. I don't think their feet were ever 934 00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:07.039 tied when they were on the bed. 935 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:09.920 Oh, okay, just just their arms. 936 00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:11.159 Yeah, there was. 937 00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:13.199 I went through the house really fast. 938 00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:19.679 I I would go from room to room and I 939 00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:22.840 got once I had them tied up, I went through 940 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:26.400 the house pretty quickly to make sure I hadn't missed anybody. 941 00:54:26.559 --> 00:54:34.280 And now you you mentioned taking the lingerie away any 942 00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:37.360 other items like makeup or stuff like that. Did you 943 00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:38.960 did you take any of that stuff? 944 00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:41.360 There were? 945 00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:43.360 I mean there there was quite a bit of thing, 946 00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:46.199 quite a few things I threw into the suitcases. 947 00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:53.119 I I you know, I guess I don't know any 948 00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:57.000 other way to ask questions, but to be to be blunt, 949 00:54:57.960 --> 00:55:04.440 I'm assuming that that those particular items play into what 950 00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:11.119 what your intentions are towards towards these folks sexually. Uh, 951 00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:13.800 when when you get to where you want to go? 952 00:55:14.119 --> 00:55:16.639 Am I? Am I on track with that? Or are 953 00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:18.880 these just souvenirs? No? 954 00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:21.159 That's that's pretty much the gist of it. 955 00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:25.840 Yeah, okay, all right? Uh do you mind if I 956 00:55:26.159 --> 00:55:31.960 just I'm kind of curious. Do you dress Lorraine and 957 00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:35.360 in her lingerie or do you have some other purpose 958 00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:40.119 for it? Uh? I don't know if I want to 959 00:55:40.159 --> 00:55:44.440 go into that. All right, fair enough? Hey, any anything 960 00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:46.840 you want to tell me about is is great. So 961 00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:56.880 we'll move on. Thinking about the car. You you get 962 00:55:56.920 --> 00:55:59.079 into the car, you put them in the car. You 963 00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:02.039 get into the car, and in your interview you say 964 00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:06.039 you drive to the place you're staying at where you 965 00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:09.880 get some stuff out of your car, and then you 966 00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:14.000 get back into their car. Then you say that you 967 00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:17.599 drive up to that abandoned house, you take them out 968 00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:22.239 of the car, and then whenever you want, it's morning, 969 00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:25.840 when you're finished, you get back in their car. You 970 00:56:26.039 --> 00:56:31.840 drive back down to the low parking lot. Am I correct? 971 00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:35.880 So far, yes, okay. And then you go to the 972 00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:40.360 hotel in the car that you've rented, and then you 973 00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:44.000 come back and you get in that car again and 974 00:56:44.119 --> 00:56:47.119 drive up group fifteen and you're talking about the looking 975 00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:50.079 at banks and stuff like that, and then you turn 976 00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:53.639 around and you drive back down and you go back 977 00:56:53.639 --> 00:56:57.920 to your car after leaving that car in the apartment complex. 978 00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:02.400 So I have all that right, Yes, okay. So in 979 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:06.199 most four times that you were getting out of that car, 980 00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:11.239 is there any chance that you ever touched anything in 981 00:57:11.239 --> 00:57:18.199 the car with an ungloved hand, not that I recall it. 982 00:57:18.280 --> 00:57:21.519 Is it possible? I mean, because I mean you're in 983 00:57:21.559 --> 00:57:23.880 and out of a car a lot, and I just 984 00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:29.039 wonder if it's possible that we might be able to 985 00:57:29.079 --> 00:57:33.119 lift a fingerprint or access some DNA or something like 986 00:57:33.199 --> 00:57:35.960 that from the car there. 987 00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:38.679 If I left to print on that car there, that 988 00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:39.079 would be. 989 00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:43.639 A pretty serious oversight on my part. I had gloves 990 00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:47.239 on the entire time. I was concerned about DNA. 991 00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:50.280 The car. 992 00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:55.000 There is a good possibility if there's fairly long dark 993 00:57:55.079 --> 00:57:55.559 hair that you. 994 00:57:55.639 --> 00:57:58.840 Found on the seat and there's a possible DNA match 995 00:57:58.920 --> 00:57:59.119 to me. 996 00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:01.800 But other than that, I seriously doubt you're gonna find 997 00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:04.039 DNA or fingerprints anywhere. 998 00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.119 What kinde of gloves do you wear when you're. 999 00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:13.559 When you're doing this, I usually wear leather baseball gloves. 1000 00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:18.119 Okay, get rubber gloves too. 1001 00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:21.280 No, I usually don't wear what rubber gloves? 1002 00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:25.800 Do you recall? I mean you might have been perspiring 1003 00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:29.400 or something like that. Is it is that possible? Oh? 1004 00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:34.280 Yeah, that was a concern I had, especially at their house, 1005 00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:38.920 because my gloves were wet, and you know, I was sweating, 1006 00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:43.320 and it's possible some of my perspiration got through the 1007 00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:44.440 gloves and got. 1008 00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:46.719 On I who knows how many items. 1009 00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:51.760 But I wasn't. I wasn't overly concerned about that. 1010 00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:57.880 All right, Either did you or drink or anything did 1011 00:58:57.880 --> 00:59:00.320 you use there? Did you go into the refrigerator while 1012 00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:00.920 you're at the house. 1013 00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:04.079 I may have looked in the refrigerator. 1014 00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:05.079 I didn't. I didn't know. 1015 00:59:05.119 --> 00:59:05.519 I didn't. 1016 00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:09.199 Okay, yeah, I know they were pretty big beer drinkers, 1017 00:59:09.199 --> 00:59:11.760 so I didn't know if you found any bear anything 1018 00:59:11.800 --> 00:59:17.519 like Dad and the refrigerator and just curious. Okay, So 1019 00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:22.599 you mentioned that you've adjusted seats to put up in 1020 00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:25.440 the car. Did you find that you had to adjust 1021 00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:31.400 the driver's seat to get in it. Yeah. Yeah, and 1022 00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:40.679 how tall you? About? Six two? Okay? Did you get 1023 00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:43.239 a sense for who drove the car last? By the 1024 00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:47.320 by the seat? Yeah, and who'd you think it was? 1025 00:59:47.960 --> 00:59:53.719 Well, it's see, I'm guessing it was her, missus Curry 1026 00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:57.639 that did most of the driving for a number of reasons. 1027 00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:04.920 Yeah what what reasons are that? Uh? Well, from what 1028 01:00:05.079 --> 01:00:07.159 I think, that's what they told me. But yeah, he. 1029 01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:11.519 Wasn't He wasn't in any shape to drive. It seemed 1030 01:00:11.559 --> 01:00:13.039 like so you. 1031 01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:18.280 You noticed anything of peculiar about either of them as 1032 01:00:18.960 --> 01:00:20.880 they walked or moved. 1033 01:00:20.599 --> 01:00:29.280 Around, aside from the now I mean, aside from the 1034 01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:31.480 fact that they weren't in the best of shape. 1035 01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:35.599 I mean, I don't know either along with a lamp 1036 01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:40.639 for anything like that. I know, I know you. I 1037 01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:44.079 know you mentioned that Bill is a pretty heavy guy. 1038 01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:49.599 Anything else about him that that led you to the 1039 01:00:49.639 --> 01:00:53.320 conclusion that he wasn't in great shape? Well, I knew. 1040 01:00:53.719 --> 01:00:56.480 I knew he had diabetes, and they told me that 1041 01:00:56.599 --> 01:00:59.119 after I shortly after we left their house. 1042 01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:06.119 Okay, Uh, give me a second, I'm fumbling through my 1043 01:01:06.199 --> 01:01:17.800 notes to find the important questions to ask you now 1044 01:01:18.920 --> 01:01:25.639 tell me about this abandoned farmhouse. And I know in 1045 01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:30.320 the interview you described of quite plainly how you how 1046 01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:34.400 you get the guy into the basement through the kind 1047 01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:39.280 of the storm door that that leads down into the basement. 1048 01:01:39.320 --> 01:01:44.760 Is that Craig? Yes? Okay? Deep. And once he's the 1049 01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:50.559 tied up in the basement, you after your little chase 1050 01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:53.519 with the with the woman there? Uh, do you bring 1051 01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:56.320 her in the same door or a different door? No? 1052 01:01:56.480 --> 01:02:00.199 I brought her in through the front door, okay. 1053 01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:05.719 And can you describe the front of that particular house. 1054 01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:08.760 There was a. 1055 01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:16.719 It was either a screen din or a Glasston porch, about. 1056 01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:18.679 Probably six by twelve or six by twenty. On the 1057 01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:19.679 front of the house. 1058 01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:22.519 There was a I believe a screen door you had 1059 01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:24.280 to go through to get into the porch area. And 1060 01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:29.760 then there was a standard entry door that led into 1061 01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:32.880 the living room of the of the old portion of 1062 01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:33.679 the farmhouse. 1063 01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:38.159 Yeah, okay, Now when you were scoping that place out earlier, 1064 01:02:38.199 --> 01:02:41.239 did you go inside it and go through it? I did? Okay, 1065 01:02:41.239 --> 01:02:44.599 so you knew what you knew exactly where where things 1066 01:02:44.760 --> 01:02:46.840 were and where you wanted to place them and all 1067 01:02:46.880 --> 01:02:53.760 that stuff. I one thing I didn't get Now with her, 1068 01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:59.159 you bring her in the front door. There's an upstairs there, right, Yes, 1069 01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:04.280 you go stairs? Are you on that like ground floor? No? 1070 01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:06.280 I took her upstairs, okay? 1071 01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:12.480 And then and what's what's up there? Furnishing wise or anything? 1072 01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:18.079 There was Most of the interior doors were off the hinges. 1073 01:03:18.239 --> 01:03:18.760 There was. 1074 01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:25.679 I think there were some old heating appliances, either boilers 1075 01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:28.920 or something in the rooms, and. 1076 01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:34.280 There were several old mattresses upstairs. 1077 01:03:34.639 --> 01:03:37.840 But for the most part that was it just larger 1078 01:03:37.880 --> 01:03:39.840 pieces of furniture was the main thing that was in 1079 01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:42.840 the house. Most of the household items had been removed. 1080 01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:47.239 Yeah, and not in the basement, but on the ground 1081 01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:52.519 floor where the couch or anything. 1082 01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:55.880 There was a couch in the living room, there was 1083 01:03:56.039 --> 01:04:00.119 maybe a recliner, and there was an old freestand be 1084 01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:00.960 wooden TV. 1085 01:04:02.440 --> 01:04:11.880 Okay, eighteen sixties. So you're a they ever concern you that, 1086 01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:17.000 I mean, there's two floors that that separate you between 1087 01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:22.679 between him and her. It might, you know, it would 1088 01:04:22.719 --> 01:04:26.679 seem like a lot of stuff could be going on 1089 01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:30.360 when you're upstairs that that you don't you don't know 1090 01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:33.639 about it, and the other way around. When you're downstairs, 1091 01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:37.880 are you Are you that confident in how secure you 1092 01:04:37.920 --> 01:04:47.880 have these people? Yeah? It was, well that's things didn't 1093 01:04:47.880 --> 01:04:51.400 go as exactly as planned. So yeah, I kind of 1094 01:04:51.440 --> 01:04:56.559 gathered that of I wish at some point you'd tell 1095 01:04:56.639 --> 01:05:01.519 me what exactly is planned meant? But you know that's 1096 01:05:01.920 --> 01:05:07.800 any any interested in telling me that? No. 1097 01:05:08.039 --> 01:05:10.079 All I can say is that, you know, I had 1098 01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:14.320 specific things that I wanted to happen in mind, and. 1099 01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:16.760 Because of. 1100 01:05:18.199 --> 01:05:22.760 Actions taken by them, there were you know, it just 1101 01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:31.840 it's just frustrated me to the point where I. 1102 01:05:29.119 --> 01:05:30.679 You know, I still. 1103 01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:34.159 I still was going to go through with it, but 1104 01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:37.639 I was, I just didn't. It didn't go exactly as 1105 01:05:37.679 --> 01:05:38.960 I had planned. 1106 01:05:39.559 --> 01:05:42.639 Okay, And you had plans for both of them you 1107 01:05:42.719 --> 01:05:45.719 mentioned that, Is that correct? Like I mean, he wasn't 1108 01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:50.679 just like collateral just being there. You had plans for 1109 01:05:50.800 --> 01:05:56.800 him as well. Yeah. Okay. Now, when when you're talking 1110 01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:03.440 about raving the woman, you mentioned going outside after a 1111 01:06:03.519 --> 01:06:09.760 while and then coming back in again. Are you like 1112 01:06:09.800 --> 01:06:14.000 a smoker. Do you go out and smoke or believe 1113 01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:16.920 any cigarettes? Or I know he smoked cigars because they 1114 01:06:17.079 --> 01:06:19.920 talked about you having cigar breaks? Is that what you 1115 01:06:19.960 --> 01:06:22.199 do when you step outside or are you just getting 1116 01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:26.679 some her No, that's what I was doing. You were smoking? Yeah, 1117 01:06:26.920 --> 01:06:29.039 did you take the bunch with you? 1118 01:06:29.239 --> 01:06:33.960 Or well get there, there isn't there isn't really a 1119 01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:39.039 butt I was. I I smoke them down to where 1120 01:06:39.079 --> 01:06:41.920 there's not much left, and then I step on them, 1121 01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:44.159 so they look like just another pile of leaves on 1122 01:06:44.199 --> 01:06:44.599 the ground. 1123 01:06:46.280 --> 01:06:49.880 All right, And so are we talking cigarettes just at 1124 01:06:49.920 --> 01:06:53.400 the at the deal or it's a cigar, it's it's 1125 01:06:53.400 --> 01:06:54.719 all tobacco, it's not. 1126 01:06:56.639 --> 01:06:58.239 I think I smoked a couple of them in their 1127 01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:01.000 backyard too, And okay. 1128 01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:05.199 All right, well yeah, and you'd say they're smoked down 1129 01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:09.840 so fine that they would be almost impossible to even 1130 01:07:10.119 --> 01:07:13.039 recognize as have been part of a cigar. 1131 01:07:13.800 --> 01:07:16.239 Yeah, I mean once once you step on them, it's 1132 01:07:16.280 --> 01:07:18.639 just tobacco leaves. So once you step on them, and 1133 01:07:18.679 --> 01:07:20.760 they're not in the shape of a cigar anymore, they 1134 01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:24.559 look just like any other okay, bit of leaves or 1135 01:07:24.639 --> 01:07:26.079 vegetation you might step on. 1136 01:07:27.079 --> 01:07:38.119 All right, feel free to interject if you think there's 1137 01:07:38.119 --> 01:07:40.119 anything else I need to know that I'm not asking. 1138 01:07:41.360 --> 01:07:44.639 It sounds like you've already heard the major interviews. 1139 01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:49.199 So well, you you talked about having a glog hand. 1140 01:07:49.000 --> 01:07:54.400 Gun with you, right, it was a Smithson lesson, but yeah. 1141 01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:58.320 Okay it is it a semi forty count Yeah? Okay? 1142 01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:02.000 What happened to that? I mean, I know what happened 1143 01:08:02.039 --> 01:08:05.840 to the ten twenty two, and I know what happened 1144 01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:09.039 to the gun you took away from the house, But 1145 01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:12.039 I don't know about the smid the western semi. 1146 01:08:13.679 --> 01:08:17.880 Smith The lesson was I was actually arrested with that 1147 01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:18.960 in Texas. 1148 01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:25.279 Oh, okay, all right? Did it? Okay? You say that 1149 01:08:25.319 --> 01:08:28.079 you hit the guy with a shovel a few times downstairs? 1150 01:08:28.560 --> 01:08:30.319 Is that your shovel? Is it a shovel that was 1151 01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:35.359 in a basement or and did you take that away? 1152 01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:37.800 No, it was a shovel that was already in the house, 1153 01:08:37.920 --> 01:08:40.119 and I didn't take it away. I think I actually 1154 01:08:40.159 --> 01:08:41.079 left it in the basement. 1155 01:08:41.960 --> 01:08:45.399 There have been any blood on it or anything? No? Okay, 1156 01:08:48.600 --> 01:08:56.640 all right, let's see. Let me back up a second. 1157 01:08:56.720 --> 01:09:03.119 Is there is there anything anything else about their house 1158 01:09:03.680 --> 01:09:06.359 that you remember that maybe I forgot to ask you about. 1159 01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:12.399 Sure, there is. I don't really know what you're looking for, though. 1160 01:09:12.479 --> 01:09:15.319 It strikes you and like, on, jeez, why And he 1161 01:09:15.359 --> 01:09:25.159 asked me that no, you remember, well I already asked 1162 01:09:25.159 --> 01:09:27.760 you about the garage. You said you didn't see too much, 1163 01:09:27.800 --> 01:09:34.880 so and he didn't go in the basement, right, No, okay, 1164 01:09:35.680 --> 01:09:41.319 anything else that you mentioned windows upstairs? And uh yeah, 1165 01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:44.359 he actually mentioned seeing a cop car down the road. 1166 01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:46.600 Yeah, there was. 1167 01:09:48.079 --> 01:09:50.600 I believe there was a business of some sort directly 1168 01:09:50.920 --> 01:09:54.319 pretty much directly across the road from the farmhouse. 1169 01:09:53.920 --> 01:09:56.680 And then further down. 1170 01:09:58.000 --> 01:10:01.760 To the right, it seems like there was either uh yeah, 1171 01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:03.840 it seems like it was another farmhouse and there was 1172 01:10:03.960 --> 01:10:04.800 I remember there was. 1173 01:10:04.760 --> 01:10:06.680 A it looked like a. 1174 01:10:08.640 --> 01:10:10.600 Sheriff's car. I think it was a sheriff's car. 1175 01:10:11.239 --> 01:10:11.640 I don't know. 1176 01:10:11.800 --> 01:10:13.520 I don't know if he lived there or what the 1177 01:10:13.920 --> 01:10:17.479 other side of the road, right, yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah, 1178 01:10:17.640 --> 01:10:19.119 I don't think it was a sheriff, but I actually 1179 01:10:19.159 --> 01:10:19.520 I think it. 1180 01:10:19.479 --> 01:10:21.920 Was a local cop from another town who took the 1181 01:10:21.960 --> 01:10:24.239 car home. But but yeah, you're right, there was a 1182 01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:31.560 there was another cop living down the road. You were 1183 01:10:31.720 --> 01:10:37.680 there's something about blocking out the windows upstairs where where 1184 01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:40.640 the woman was, is it? Yeah? 1185 01:10:40.680 --> 01:10:44.000 I had I took a couple of the doors and 1186 01:10:44.119 --> 01:10:46.680 maybe a mattress and put him over the windows so 1187 01:10:46.720 --> 01:10:47.840 that people wouldn't. 1188 01:10:47.479 --> 01:10:51.560 See the light. And she she was on a mattress. 1189 01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:54.239 That one of the mattresses that it was laying on 1190 01:10:54.279 --> 01:10:57.239 the floor when you checked the place out, Yeah, you 1191 01:10:57.399 --> 01:10:59.399 cover it with anything that you brought with you or 1192 01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:03.119 just now that old booty mattress that was there. 1193 01:11:03.520 --> 01:11:04.560 That was pretty good, chick. 1194 01:11:05.119 --> 01:11:09.399 Really, Yeah, it looked like anybody has been like squatting 1195 01:11:09.439 --> 01:11:11.199 hanging out in there recently. 1196 01:11:11.520 --> 01:11:15.840 No, Well, maybe there was one portion of the house, 1197 01:11:15.880 --> 01:11:18.039 the back portion of the house had an addition on it, 1198 01:11:18.079 --> 01:11:20.560 and it was pretty clearly the last area that had 1199 01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:24.960 been lived in. They had a makeshift kitchen set up 1200 01:11:25.079 --> 01:11:28.159 and seems like there were even still some appliances in. 1201 01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:31.960 That portion of the house. So yeah, maybe they were squatters. 1202 01:11:32.000 --> 01:11:33.640 I don't know, it looked it looked. 1203 01:11:33.359 --> 01:11:33.880 More like. 1204 01:11:36.439 --> 01:11:39.760 Somebody who was just living in that section because the 1205 01:11:39.760 --> 01:11:42.079 rest of the house wasn't that livable anymore. 1206 01:11:42.199 --> 01:11:49.600 So, okay, all right, when you finally get out of 1207 01:11:49.840 --> 01:11:53.920 decide to get out of town, and you're you're going 1208 01:11:54.039 --> 01:11:58.359 to Maine, how do you get there? I mean, I 1209 01:11:58.720 --> 01:12:02.880 know how I usually go to Maine and it's by 1210 01:12:02.960 --> 01:12:07.640 getting on eighty nine and heading south. Is that how 1211 01:12:07.680 --> 01:12:10.479 you go or do you go a different way? No? 1212 01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:13.399 I think I went the northern route on the way there. 1213 01:12:14.079 --> 01:12:20.840 Okay. And you mentioned the state or state forest in 1214 01:12:20.920 --> 01:12:24.760 New Hampshire where you got out. Was that off a 1215 01:12:24.840 --> 01:12:27.600 local road or was that off the the interstate? 1216 01:12:31.159 --> 01:12:33.039 I think that was off of a highway. 1217 01:12:33.079 --> 01:12:35.279 I don't remember if honestly, I don't remember if that 1218 01:12:35.319 --> 01:12:36.279 was an interstate or not. 1219 01:12:36.720 --> 01:12:38.359 I would have to look at them out. 1220 01:12:38.720 --> 01:12:45.920 All right, Okay, I'm winding down here, so just bear 1221 01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:48.479 with me a couple more minutes. Okay. 1222 01:12:49.319 --> 01:12:53.119 Yeah, Well he's looking at his questions, is it okay? 1223 01:12:53.079 --> 01:12:54.159 I asked your questions. 1224 01:12:54.319 --> 01:12:58.560 Yeah, you tell me you had some conversation with the 1225 01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:00.840 couriers that you talked about them telling you that he 1226 01:13:00.880 --> 01:13:04.319 was a diabetic, that she was the one who primarily 1227 01:13:04.319 --> 01:13:06.960 did the driving. I think you said in your Maid's 1228 01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:09.399 interview that they he talked. 1229 01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:11.680 To you about his military history or background. 1230 01:13:12.359 --> 01:13:13.720 Yeah, all right. 1231 01:13:13.880 --> 01:13:14.840 Can you remember any. 1232 01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:18.640 Other specific things that you spoke with them about. 1233 01:13:20.600 --> 01:13:24.000 Well, obviously they're I mean concern was what was going 1234 01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:25.600 on at the time, so that was. 1235 01:13:27.039 --> 01:13:29.600 Primarily what we were talking about. 1236 01:13:30.159 --> 01:13:31.880 What kind of questions Were they asking. 1237 01:13:31.640 --> 01:13:34.479 You what's going on? 1238 01:13:35.159 --> 01:13:38.880 And did you what was your answer to them? 1239 01:13:39.319 --> 01:13:42.840 I told them it was kidnapped for ransom. 1240 01:13:43.119 --> 01:13:45.079 Did they talk to you anything about their own financial 1241 01:13:45.119 --> 01:13:47.119 history when you. 1242 01:13:46.520 --> 01:13:47.960 Mentioned that that might be your motive? 1243 01:13:48.359 --> 01:13:48.640 Yes? 1244 01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:49.880 What did they tell you? 1245 01:13:50.560 --> 01:13:53.600 They told me they didn't come from money. 1246 01:13:55.079 --> 01:13:57.680 Did they tell you anything about like the touch of jobs. 1247 01:13:57.319 --> 01:13:59.000 They did or yeah? 1248 01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:01.359 I asked them all the questions and do you recall 1249 01:14:01.399 --> 01:14:04.720 what their answers were? She told me she worked in 1250 01:14:04.760 --> 01:14:07.680 a hospital, and I believe she said he worked at 1251 01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:09.920 a animal hospital or something. 1252 01:14:10.399 --> 01:14:15.159 Okay, Did they tell you anything about their specific family history, 1253 01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:18.239 whether or not they had children, whether or not they had. 1254 01:14:18.439 --> 01:14:19.920 You know this kidnapped for ransom thing? 1255 01:14:20.000 --> 01:14:22.039 Did you did you explore it further with them in 1256 01:14:22.119 --> 01:14:25.199 terms of who you would be contacting for the ransom money? 1257 01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:26.760 Yeah? 1258 01:14:26.800 --> 01:14:28.880 Can you tell me what you recall about that part 1259 01:14:28.880 --> 01:14:29.560 of the conversation. 1260 01:14:31.279 --> 01:14:36.960 I was asking them where their family primarily lived and 1261 01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:39.119 how many members there were around. 1262 01:14:38.840 --> 01:14:40.840 And did do you recall what they said? 1263 01:14:43.039 --> 01:14:45.479 They told me they had recently moved to the area 1264 01:14:45.640 --> 01:14:52.000 from Winooski, and that there had several family members in 1265 01:14:53.199 --> 01:14:53.720 the areas. 1266 01:14:53.760 --> 01:14:59.840 Still huh, whether or not they had children. 1267 01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:02.560 It seems like I did ask them if they had children, 1268 01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:05.600 and I believe they had said no. 1269 01:15:07.640 --> 01:15:12.279 Okay, do you recall anything else specifically from the house 1270 01:15:12.319 --> 01:15:15.159 that you remember seeing, either in the kitchen, whether it 1271 01:15:15.199 --> 01:15:20.680 was photographs or wall hangings, like fixtures, anything that you 1272 01:15:20.720 --> 01:15:22.560 can recall distinctively. 1273 01:15:24.640 --> 01:15:25.560 Nothing distinctive. 1274 01:15:25.640 --> 01:15:26.119 It was. 1275 01:15:27.800 --> 01:15:30.560 Seems like for the most part, it was pretty standard furnishings, 1276 01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:34.159 and I don't remember seeing anything that really stood out 1277 01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:39.840 to me. I do remember they had fairly new televisions. 1278 01:15:39.840 --> 01:15:42.239 It seemed like in every room, like large flat screen 1279 01:15:42.279 --> 01:15:43.239 TVs or something. 1280 01:15:43.359 --> 01:15:46.079 So, Okay, what about the kitchen. 1281 01:15:46.119 --> 01:15:48.880 Did you notice any about the appliances, whether or not 1282 01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:50.920 it was like a newer kitchen an older kitchen. 1283 01:15:52.680 --> 01:15:57.279 I don't recall. I don't. Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't 1284 01:15:57.279 --> 01:15:58.159 really focused on that. 1285 01:15:58.239 --> 01:16:02.800 I guess, Okay, all right. I had a couple more 1286 01:16:02.880 --> 01:16:06.680 questions for Israel about the car. Okay, isn't the trunk 1287 01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:12.159 of the car there's a black trash bag when when 1288 01:16:12.199 --> 01:16:15.880 we recovered the car, do you recall if that's if 1289 01:16:15.920 --> 01:16:18.680 that's something you brought or it was, or it was 1290 01:16:18.720 --> 01:16:22.199 something that was in the car when you got it. 1291 01:16:22.199 --> 01:16:23.920 It depends how big of a trash bag it is, 1292 01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:28.680 I guess. Okay, so you don't have a specific recollection 1293 01:16:28.760 --> 01:16:30.800 of leaving a trash bag in the trunk. 1294 01:16:30.840 --> 01:16:33.399 I would be surprised if I had left a trash bag. 1295 01:16:33.560 --> 01:16:37.920 I it's possible that I did, But. 1296 01:16:38.680 --> 01:16:40.600 If you did, it would have been a newer one. 1297 01:16:41.119 --> 01:16:43.079 Yeah, it would have been fresh off of the role. 1298 01:16:43.319 --> 01:16:45.760 And like I said, there were very large trash bags, 1299 01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:47.079 so they're pretty distinctive. 1300 01:16:47.359 --> 01:16:51.720 Were they heavy duty they were, I believe on tractor 1301 01:16:51.760 --> 01:16:53.000 bag or were they just big? 1302 01:16:53.159 --> 01:16:56.680 I think they were two or three milf. 1303 01:16:56.760 --> 01:16:57.159 They weren't. 1304 01:16:57.199 --> 01:16:59.600 They weren't super heavy duty, they were just very large. 1305 01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:03.600 Okay. Did you get in led by any kids? 1306 01:17:03.840 --> 01:17:04.520 I don't think so. 1307 01:17:05.359 --> 01:17:10.319 All right, there were uh you mentioned that the car 1308 01:17:10.439 --> 01:17:16.680 overheated or saw uh cooling containers in the car? Is 1309 01:17:16.720 --> 01:17:17.520 that is that right? 1310 01:17:17.800 --> 01:17:18.079 Yeah? 1311 01:17:18.119 --> 01:17:18.520 There was. 1312 01:17:20.279 --> 01:17:22.159 When I got in the car to put the seat back, 1313 01:17:22.319 --> 01:17:23.920 it wouldn't go back all the way. I think there 1314 01:17:23.960 --> 01:17:25.880 were a couple of gallons of ana freeze. 1315 01:17:26.840 --> 01:17:32.000 Okay, And did you remember anything else that was in 1316 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:32.279 the car. 1317 01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:40.479 There was like some seat cushions, like lower back support, 1318 01:17:40.560 --> 01:17:42.359 cushions and something like that. 1319 01:17:43.880 --> 01:17:46.119 A pillow. Do you do you recall a pillow being 1320 01:17:46.159 --> 01:17:47.000 in the car? Yeah? 1321 01:17:47.119 --> 01:17:52.800 Yeah, there were several several pillows are back like I say, 1322 01:17:52.880 --> 01:17:54.359 like back support or something. 1323 01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:56.960 You didn't put it in the car, like I mean, 1324 01:17:57.000 --> 01:17:59.479 when that wasn't part of stuff you took away from 1325 01:17:59.479 --> 01:18:00.720 the house that was already. 1326 01:18:00.399 --> 01:18:04.920 In the car, right, that was that was something that 1327 01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:09.199 they you could tell they habitually drove with those things. 1328 01:18:09.640 --> 01:18:13.560 Yeah. One one thing we did notice that we took. 1329 01:18:13.680 --> 01:18:16.960 We took from the car machine strange. It looked like 1330 01:18:17.000 --> 01:18:22.960 a couple of packages of women's underwear that was I 1331 01:18:23.359 --> 01:18:25.159 look not open to me. I don't know, is it. 1332 01:18:25.399 --> 01:18:31.880 Do you recall that It's possible I don't. 1333 01:18:31.920 --> 01:18:34.880 I don't know if they were if it was in 1334 01:18:34.920 --> 01:18:37.359 the trunk. It's possible they fell out of the suitcase 1335 01:18:37.479 --> 01:18:40.079 or something. But I mean unless no, I don't recall 1336 01:18:40.319 --> 01:18:41.439 putting those in there. 1337 01:18:41.319 --> 01:18:45.439 Now, okay, all right? And you don't recall seeing them 1338 01:18:45.439 --> 01:18:47.920 in there though, just as you were checking out the car. 1339 01:18:49.960 --> 01:18:53.439 Yeah, it seems like there was a bag of something 1340 01:18:53.479 --> 01:18:57.039 in there. I don't remember. Like I said, I checked 1341 01:18:57.039 --> 01:18:58.800 out the car. I was only I was looking for 1342 01:18:58.880 --> 01:19:01.520 specific things when I checked out the car, So anything 1343 01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:05.600 else inconsequential I probably just pushed under the seat or something. 1344 01:19:06.159 --> 01:19:11.319 Okay, what were you looking for, like there's a value 1345 01:19:11.439 --> 01:19:12.399 or no? 1346 01:19:12.560 --> 01:19:14.920 I was trying to figure out who lived in the house. 1347 01:19:15.680 --> 01:19:23.159 Okay, all right, So most of your intelligence gathering about 1348 01:19:23.199 --> 01:19:25.119 the house and the car and all that stuff is 1349 01:19:25.640 --> 01:19:31.399 to determine who lives in the house, Am I right there? Yeah? 1350 01:19:31.439 --> 01:19:33.920 I just wanted to know what to expect when I 1351 01:19:33.960 --> 01:19:36.399 when I went in, I was I was looking in 1352 01:19:36.399 --> 01:19:40.640 the car for for dog hair, And it's trying to 1353 01:19:40.640 --> 01:19:43.439 find out the ages and how many people there might 1354 01:19:43.479 --> 01:19:46.159 be living in the house by going through all the 1355 01:19:46.159 --> 01:19:47.920 paperwork in the car things like that. 1356 01:19:48.880 --> 01:19:51.279 Okay, well, I mean that that makes sense to me. 1357 01:19:51.359 --> 01:19:54.000 That's similar to some of the stuff we do when 1358 01:19:54.039 --> 01:20:01.479 we're looking to the gain entry to a house. Now 1359 01:20:01.560 --> 01:20:06.600 I must, But apart from who's going to be in 1360 01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:12.399 the house when you get in there, I mean, does 1361 01:20:12.439 --> 01:20:13.319 that really matter to you? 1362 01:20:14.159 --> 01:20:14.279 Uh? 1363 01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:18.239 Because I mean, do you have like a plan A 1364 01:20:18.399 --> 01:20:22.279 if it's if it's uh, you know what you expected 1365 01:20:22.319 --> 01:20:26.479 me and a woman and it's but but it doesn't 1366 01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:30.039 matter if it's a you know, three people or or 1367 01:20:30.600 --> 01:20:33.159 two people or you know, you know what I mean. 1368 01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:36.640 Would you would you have, like, if you saw something 1369 01:20:36.640 --> 01:20:38.359 that you didn't expect to see, would you have walked 1370 01:20:38.359 --> 01:20:40.600 away from that place and have gone somewhere else? 1371 01:20:41.680 --> 01:20:43.920 If there had been three or four people in the house, 1372 01:20:44.319 --> 01:20:47.000 then I would have just tied them up and left. 1373 01:20:47.279 --> 01:20:52.720 Okay. And you got feelings about kids, I mean, are 1374 01:20:52.720 --> 01:20:56.840 they like something you want to stay away from? Yeah? 1375 01:20:56.880 --> 01:20:59.239 I try, yeah, try to avoid it. 1376 01:20:59.319 --> 01:21:04.920 I mean, I I am already had pretty strong suspicions 1377 01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:06.720 that if there were gonna be kids there, there were 1378 01:21:06.760 --> 01:21:11.840 probably grandkids or something. And I didn't think that was 1379 01:21:11.920 --> 01:21:15.119 very likely. Like I say, I checked out the garage 1380 01:21:15.199 --> 01:21:18.359 and the backyard and I was I was looking for 1381 01:21:18.439 --> 01:21:19.079 signs of that. 1382 01:21:19.199 --> 01:21:23.760 I didn't see anything. So all right, okay, is there 1383 01:21:26.039 --> 01:21:35.159 Do you have any questions for me right now? No? 1384 01:21:36.920 --> 01:21:40.319 All right, I'm trying to I'm trying to think for 1385 01:21:40.359 --> 01:21:43.319 a minute, if you know, because I'm probably never going 1386 01:21:43.399 --> 01:21:45.880 to get a chance to do this again. If there's 1387 01:21:45.920 --> 01:21:52.720 anything else that that I want to ask you, But 1388 01:21:53.000 --> 01:21:54.600 I mean there are millions of things I want to 1389 01:21:54.600 --> 01:21:58.439 ask you. But you know, I understand the ground rules, 1390 01:21:58.479 --> 01:22:01.920 and I and I respect, you know, at least the 1391 01:22:02.000 --> 01:22:08.920 level of cooperation I'm getting from it now. Uh, do 1392 01:22:08.920 --> 01:22:12.920 you mind if I ask you about why why Vermont 1393 01:22:13.000 --> 01:22:16.000 and why why es ex Junction? It just seems kind 1394 01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:20.720 of off the beaten path from from you know, with 1395 01:22:21.079 --> 01:22:24.119 your the areas you've been to, m. 1396 01:22:26.600 --> 01:22:32.279 Well, off the beaten path, that's kind of like what 1397 01:22:32.399 --> 01:22:33.039 I like to do. 1398 01:22:33.239 --> 01:22:39.079 So yeah, and I was. I was with with the 1399 01:22:39.159 --> 01:22:44.920 recovery team at the reservoir and that, I mean, it's 1400 01:22:44.920 --> 01:22:49.000 a beautiful area certainly, that's off the beaten path about 1401 01:22:49.000 --> 01:22:53.800 as far as you can go. You mentioned that your 1402 01:22:55.000 --> 01:22:57.199 I think your plan was to say that you would 1403 01:22:57.239 --> 01:23:00.560 come to the area to do some fishing. Is it 1404 01:23:00.600 --> 01:23:01.119 is that right? 1405 01:23:02.680 --> 01:23:05.720 Well, not so much a plant that is actually what 1406 01:23:05.760 --> 01:23:08.239 I was doing. I was, I was, I was fishing. 1407 01:23:08.359 --> 01:23:14.880 I mean, I was fishing along the I don't know 1408 01:23:14.880 --> 01:23:17.800 what you call it, like there's a there's a breakwater 1409 01:23:17.840 --> 01:23:20.000 that goes out into Lake Champlain. 1410 01:23:20.079 --> 01:23:24.279 I think it was. I was there right after the flooding. 1411 01:23:24.319 --> 01:23:26.319 There was a big flood and there was a lot 1412 01:23:26.359 --> 01:23:29.000 of damage that was done to the parks along the 1413 01:23:29.039 --> 01:23:32.640 water waterways there. So I was I was driving around 1414 01:23:32.640 --> 01:23:36.279 out there looking at all that all the flooded campgrounds 1415 01:23:36.319 --> 01:23:39.640 and damaged trees, and there were quite a few people fishing. 1416 01:23:39.720 --> 01:23:42.680 So I stopped and asked them what they were, what 1417 01:23:42.720 --> 01:23:44.800 they were fishing for and if they had any luck, and. 1418 01:23:46.359 --> 01:23:47.880 Decided that I was going to stop. 1419 01:23:47.920 --> 01:23:52.279 And my originally I wasn't even planning on staying in Vermont. 1420 01:23:53.680 --> 01:23:56.319 I was, you know, planning on going on to New 1421 01:23:56.359 --> 01:23:58.720 Hampshire and maybe staying there for a. 1422 01:23:58.640 --> 01:24:05.479 Couple of days. And but yeah, I just I just decided. 1423 01:24:05.039 --> 01:24:08.319 I wanted to try fishing there, and I already had 1424 01:24:08.319 --> 01:24:09.439 any fishing gear. 1425 01:24:09.319 --> 01:24:12.880 With me, not really, No, did you have a license? 1426 01:24:13.359 --> 01:24:13.560 Yeah? 1427 01:24:13.560 --> 01:24:14.359 I did, I did get I. 1428 01:24:14.319 --> 01:24:16.319 Think I got a three day license or something. 1429 01:24:16.880 --> 01:24:19.000 Okay, Yeah, I don't want to I don't want you 1430 01:24:19.000 --> 01:24:20.920 to get jumped up for fishing without a license. 1431 01:24:21.359 --> 01:24:24.159 Yeah, there after me for poaching already. 1432 01:24:24.279 --> 01:24:29.800 So I mean that's a that's a serious offense at Vermont. Yeah. 1433 01:24:29.840 --> 01:24:35.960 But uh anyway, Uh so so you're I mean, are 1434 01:24:35.960 --> 01:24:39.439 there are other areas in Vermont that that you're that 1435 01:24:39.600 --> 01:24:42.479 you are familiar with or is it just because this 1436 01:24:42.640 --> 01:24:46.359 is off the ferry route kind of that that you 1437 01:24:46.359 --> 01:24:49.399 you decided to stay in Essex. No, I've been. 1438 01:24:50.319 --> 01:24:55.079 I've been all through Vermont various occasions. I don't I 1439 01:24:55.079 --> 01:25:01.159 don't always stay in like Burlington area. It's it's kind 1440 01:25:01.159 --> 01:25:03.640 of on the way to New York though, from route 1441 01:25:03.680 --> 01:25:04.039 I take. 1442 01:25:04.199 --> 01:25:09.279 So okay, and oh, I just thought of a question. 1443 01:25:09.399 --> 01:25:11.479 Do you eat a restaurants when you're in town? 1444 01:25:12.880 --> 01:25:13.600 Not usually? 1445 01:25:14.720 --> 01:25:19.279 Did do you recall when you were this visit here 1446 01:25:19.359 --> 01:25:24.319 in in June if you eated any restaurants or go 1447 01:25:24.439 --> 01:25:26.680 through McDonald's or what do you do about food? 1448 01:25:28.279 --> 01:25:30.640 I don't remember on that last trip, but it seems 1449 01:25:30.640 --> 01:25:34.199 like I'm sure I did eat a restaurant at some point. 1450 01:25:34.319 --> 01:25:38.760 It must not have been very memorable. Sorry, yeah, okay, 1451 01:25:38.920 --> 01:25:41.079 Well that's all right. I just give me one more 1452 01:25:41.159 --> 01:25:47.199 thing to to look at. All right. Like I said, 1453 01:25:47.199 --> 01:25:50.560 I'm winding down here, I'm spinning my wheels, trying to 1454 01:25:50.800 --> 01:25:53.319 make every advantage of Let. 1455 01:25:53.199 --> 01:25:55.800 Me ask you a quick questions, is Frank, is really 1456 01:25:56.079 --> 01:25:57.680 do you bring your cigars with you and you buy 1457 01:25:57.680 --> 01:25:58.119 them there? 1458 01:25:59.119 --> 01:26:00.720 I usually buy them wherever I am. 1459 01:26:01.079 --> 01:26:06.520 When'd you buy cigars and Vermont? 1460 01:26:07.479 --> 01:26:09.279 Well, on that trip, I had them with me. 1461 01:26:10.159 --> 01:26:14.840 Oh, I bought him in Chicago, Chicago or Indiana. 1462 01:26:15.119 --> 01:26:18.399 I don't know, somewhere down there, it's. 1463 01:26:18.079 --> 01:26:19.439 That same brand you usually smoke. 1464 01:26:19.840 --> 01:26:22.359 Yeah, I mean it's not as they're kind of a 1465 01:26:22.399 --> 01:26:25.039 little more difficult to find certain areas. 1466 01:26:25.079 --> 01:26:29.079 But yeah, mister Keith, I just have a couple other 1467 01:26:29.159 --> 01:26:29.880 questions as well. 1468 01:26:31.800 --> 01:26:32.720 Obviously, I think. 1469 01:26:32.560 --> 01:26:34.600 That the folks out there told you that one of 1470 01:26:34.600 --> 01:26:36.720 the reasons that we're having this conversation with you is 1471 01:26:36.760 --> 01:26:40.319 because the Courier house has been sitting vacant. I mean 1472 01:26:40.319 --> 01:26:43.079 we helmet as evidence for the past year, and that 1473 01:26:43.199 --> 01:26:45.479 family would like get back because at some point here 1474 01:26:45.520 --> 01:26:47.720 because they want to put it back on the market, 1475 01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:49.359 and there's a chance that's going d up going to 1476 01:26:49.399 --> 01:26:52.600 foreclosure unless we do something pretty quick, which is why 1477 01:26:52.640 --> 01:26:55.119 we're having this conversation, so we can verify that it 1478 01:26:55.199 --> 01:26:57.920 was you and only you that. 1479 01:26:58.479 --> 01:26:59.840 Were involved in their death. 1480 01:27:00.880 --> 01:27:04.640 And I'm one and so that's the focus of my questions. 1481 01:27:04.680 --> 01:27:07.520 And was there anything about missus Courrier. 1482 01:27:07.960 --> 01:27:11.079 I understand that you spent it sounds like more time 1483 01:27:11.119 --> 01:27:12.680 with her than you did miss a career. 1484 01:27:13.000 --> 01:27:15.239 Anything about anything observed. 1485 01:27:14.880 --> 01:27:20.479 About her body, birthmarks, anything like that while you were. 1486 01:27:21.800 --> 01:27:22.520 Involved with her. 1487 01:27:26.640 --> 01:27:31.039 Nothing I really want to talk about, though, Well, Obviously. 1488 01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:33.119 For us, that would be critical to show that it 1489 01:27:33.159 --> 01:27:36.319 was you, and only you that could have committed this crime, 1490 01:27:36.359 --> 01:27:38.239 because nobody else would have that information. 1491 01:27:38.920 --> 01:27:39.920 So to the extent that. 1492 01:27:39.920 --> 01:27:42.479 You're willing to share even a portion of that, it 1493 01:27:42.479 --> 01:27:44.279 would be very helpful for us and able to get 1494 01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:47.119 in order to give the house back and close out 1495 01:27:47.560 --> 01:27:49.159 this aspect of our investigation. 1496 01:27:50.159 --> 01:27:54.439 Well, I mean, I I think at this point in 1497 01:27:54.439 --> 01:27:56.920 the interview, it's pretty obvious that I was in the house, 1498 01:27:57.039 --> 01:28:02.520 and considering that I had known ties to them prior 1499 01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:05.000 to that night, there's really no other way I could 1500 01:28:05.119 --> 01:28:07.560 know as much about that house as as I do 1501 01:28:07.680 --> 01:28:09.960 unless I was the one who took them out of it. 1502 01:28:10.039 --> 01:28:13.039 So is there anything Can you give me a general 1503 01:28:13.359 --> 01:28:15.640 It can't be specific about what it is you recall 1504 01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:19.199 for her to give me a general idea about what 1505 01:28:19.479 --> 01:28:23.479 part of her body saw something distinctive or anything like that. 1506 01:28:24.239 --> 01:28:25.000 No, I can't. 1507 01:28:25.119 --> 01:28:26.319 I can't really go into that. 1508 01:28:27.199 --> 01:28:34.199 Okay, did bring a question that went in my head 1509 01:28:34.199 --> 01:28:38.439 and out of it all? 1510 01:28:38.560 --> 01:28:38.680 Right? 1511 01:28:38.760 --> 01:28:42.960 Well, never mind, Oh yeah, that's that's what I wanted 1512 01:28:42.960 --> 01:28:47.760 to ask you. This guy Bill spent a lot of 1513 01:28:47.800 --> 01:28:53.439 time on the internet. Is I mean, do you do 1514 01:28:53.479 --> 01:28:55.119 you spend a lot of time on the computer. 1515 01:28:56.479 --> 01:28:59.760 I have carry outic you know, from time to time. 1516 01:29:00.640 --> 01:29:04.119 Is there any chance you guys could have ever crossed 1517 01:29:04.239 --> 01:29:09.000 Pats on the internet, either chatting or anything like that. 1518 01:29:10.159 --> 01:29:13.840 Oh, it's anything's possible, but I doubt it statistically it 1519 01:29:13.880 --> 01:29:14.880 seems improbable. 1520 01:29:15.319 --> 01:29:19.079 Okay, but it's certainly that would not have been a 1521 01:29:19.119 --> 01:29:23.159 conscious thing that you ever communicated with with this guy 1522 01:29:23.279 --> 01:29:27.479 on the internet. No, okay, all right? 1523 01:29:28.159 --> 01:29:30.039 Is there anything else, mister Keith you can think of 1524 01:29:30.560 --> 01:29:33.439 that was personal they spoke to you about like that? 1525 01:29:34.039 --> 01:29:36.680 We have obviously the information about them having moved or 1526 01:29:36.680 --> 01:29:41.079 family members having moved here from Nuski. Is it's personal 1527 01:29:41.159 --> 01:29:42.960 to them? Is there anything else you can talk about 1528 01:29:43.319 --> 01:29:45.720 or recall that they told you that was sort of 1529 01:29:45.720 --> 01:29:46.760 personal to their lives? 1530 01:29:48.479 --> 01:29:53.880 No. I, for the most part, the only time I was, 1531 01:29:54.800 --> 01:29:58.560 you know, letting them mistake was to answer questions that 1532 01:29:58.600 --> 01:30:04.960 I asked them. So I I don't. I yeah, I wasn't. 1533 01:30:05.000 --> 01:30:06.760 It wasn't a typical conversation. 1534 01:30:06.880 --> 01:30:08.159 I guess you could say, it's not. 1535 01:30:08.319 --> 01:30:09.039 It's not like I. 1536 01:30:10.720 --> 01:30:13.920 Did mister Courier say anything to you about the military. 1537 01:30:13.960 --> 01:30:15.680 I know you talked about and. 1538 01:30:15.640 --> 01:30:17.199 I may be getting the wording wrong on this, but 1539 01:30:17.319 --> 01:30:19.680 either the branch of the military or the infantry or 1540 01:30:19.680 --> 01:30:21.520 something like that that you were both a part of 1541 01:30:21.640 --> 01:30:23.680 or had both some similar history with. 1542 01:30:24.239 --> 01:30:24.880 Yeah. 1543 01:30:24.920 --> 01:30:28.000 And did he tell you anything about specifically what he 1544 01:30:28.039 --> 01:30:31.119 did in the military or his experiences where he been 1545 01:30:31.319 --> 01:30:32.000 anything like that. 1546 01:30:33.800 --> 01:30:36.680 No, he just said it was a long time ago. 1547 01:30:37.199 --> 01:30:37.560 Okay. 1548 01:30:38.399 --> 01:30:40.800 And what was it again about the two of you 1549 01:30:40.880 --> 01:30:43.800 that you had in common in terms of the military. 1550 01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:45.760 Was it the same branch of military. 1551 01:30:46.079 --> 01:30:51.520 The same division, I believe, okay, which was what twenty fifth? 1552 01:30:52.720 --> 01:30:53.079 Okay? 1553 01:30:53.880 --> 01:30:55.119 And I'm sorry, I don't know a lot of the 1554 01:30:55.119 --> 01:30:57.000 military that's part of the. 1555 01:30:56.680 --> 01:30:59.960 Army or yeah, that's the army. Well they call it. 1556 01:31:00.079 --> 01:31:02.800 They call it the electric strawberry. That's what caught my eye. 1557 01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:05.920 It's a It was the shoulder patch on his uniform. 1558 01:31:05.960 --> 01:31:07.399 It was the same as the one that I had 1559 01:31:07.439 --> 01:31:08.760 worn when I was in the military. 1560 01:31:09.520 --> 01:31:12.760 Does it say electric strawberry or like a flame term 1561 01:31:12.800 --> 01:31:13.520 for what it is? 1562 01:31:13.920 --> 01:31:14.640 It's a leaf. 1563 01:31:15.119 --> 01:31:16.840 I don't know what kind of leaf, maybe an oak 1564 01:31:16.920 --> 01:31:19.000 leaf or something with a lightning. 1565 01:31:18.640 --> 01:31:19.359 Bolt through it. 1566 01:31:19.840 --> 01:31:20.199 Okay. 1567 01:31:20.279 --> 01:31:24.079 And you saw that in on somewhere on the insignia 1568 01:31:24.199 --> 01:31:25.000 or the documents. 1569 01:31:25.119 --> 01:31:26.000 Where did you see that? 1570 01:31:26.399 --> 01:31:28.800 I saw it in the in the dresser. It was 1571 01:31:28.840 --> 01:31:31.199 a unit patch. It was either on a uniform or 1572 01:31:31.199 --> 01:31:33.119 it was separate in a bag. And I think it 1573 01:31:33.159 --> 01:31:37.640 was in a bag of his other military medals or something. 1574 01:31:38.039 --> 01:31:38.399 Okay. 1575 01:31:39.600 --> 01:31:41.840 And that was in the i'll call it the spare 1576 01:31:41.920 --> 01:31:43.199 room for lack of a better word. 1577 01:31:43.399 --> 01:31:45.760 Right, it was in the bedroom adjoining theirs. 1578 01:31:46.119 --> 01:31:48.560 Okay, and you call it there was actually a bed 1579 01:31:48.600 --> 01:31:49.600 in that bedroom as well. 1580 01:31:50.760 --> 01:31:52.840 There was either a bed or a couch. I don't Yeah, 1581 01:31:53.039 --> 01:31:54.199 I think there was a bed. 1582 01:31:54.479 --> 01:31:57.920 Okay, Okay. 1583 01:31:58.279 --> 01:32:00.880 And I know that you said it not make interview 1584 01:32:01.159 --> 01:32:04.479 that Bill Currier had on shorts that looked similar to 1585 01:32:04.520 --> 01:32:06.720 you to maybe swim trunks or something like that. 1586 01:32:07.119 --> 01:32:08.520 Right, And do you recall. 1587 01:32:08.319 --> 01:32:09.840 What she was wearing the ring. 1588 01:32:11.520 --> 01:32:16.640 She was wearing really lightweight like sleeping shorts and T shirt. 1589 01:32:18.159 --> 01:32:21.640 It looked like they weren't something They looked like a 1590 01:32:21.760 --> 01:32:23.920 sleep wear, like something you would buy a sajamas. 1591 01:32:24.319 --> 01:32:25.079 Right, Okay? 1592 01:32:25.359 --> 01:32:27.840 Yeah? 1593 01:32:28.520 --> 01:32:31.039 Israel are you are you? Are you made of American 1594 01:32:31.159 --> 01:32:35.239 or anything? No? I noticed you spent several years out 1595 01:32:35.279 --> 01:32:40.600 on the on the West Coast working for the Maka Tribes. 1596 01:32:41.000 --> 01:32:45.680 Is that correct my contract? Yes? And then uh, from 1597 01:32:45.680 --> 01:32:49.000 what I understand from looking at the media, you might 1598 01:32:49.000 --> 01:32:52.760 have had had you might have some property in upstate 1599 01:32:52.800 --> 01:32:57.199 New York near the Saint Regis Tribes. Is that correct? Yes? 1600 01:32:58.399 --> 01:33:01.520 Is that just coincidental? Or did you have any affinity 1601 01:33:01.720 --> 01:33:07.079 for Native America or I mean, it is that significant 1602 01:33:07.079 --> 01:33:12.680 in any way I've had i'n't you know. 1603 01:33:14.079 --> 01:33:16.239 I don't know how significant it is, but you know, 1604 01:33:16.560 --> 01:33:18.920 my our paths have crossed for a long time. 1605 01:33:19.079 --> 01:33:24.119 So if you have a I mean you view these 1606 01:33:24.119 --> 01:33:28.079 people as as victims or people you have respect for. 1607 01:33:29.640 --> 01:33:32.439 I have respect for everybody. 1608 01:33:33.159 --> 01:33:40.039 I just any anything in particular. Well, I guess not 1609 01:33:40.760 --> 01:33:45.159 from the sounds of things, Well, you guess you like 1610 01:33:45.239 --> 01:33:49.760 the outdoors. It sounds like you're kind of very comfortable 1611 01:33:50.039 --> 01:33:54.920 in the wilderness surroundings. And I just wondered if that 1612 01:33:55.760 --> 01:33:59.720 was any part of your heritage. It's just the way 1613 01:33:59.760 --> 01:34:00.479 I was raised. 1614 01:34:00.520 --> 01:34:05.920 I no, but I'm not. I'm not a Native American that. 1615 01:34:05.920 --> 01:34:06.359 I know of. 1616 01:34:08.600 --> 01:34:10.359 And if I can just ask, and I know that 1617 01:34:10.399 --> 01:34:12.119 you've said that you've run a lot of detail, and 1618 01:34:12.159 --> 01:34:14.199 you have and I'm just trying to I guess answer 1619 01:34:14.359 --> 01:34:15.000 some questions. 1620 01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:16.319 They're still lingering out there. 1621 01:34:16.600 --> 01:34:18.359 I think you said in the math interview that when 1622 01:34:18.399 --> 01:34:21.079 you went into their bedroom that you tore or or 1623 01:34:21.119 --> 01:34:22.640 brought all of the covers off. 1624 01:34:22.520 --> 01:34:22.960 Of the bed. 1625 01:34:23.760 --> 01:34:25.439 Is that right? Yes? Okay? 1626 01:34:25.640 --> 01:34:27.319 And did those covers stay off the bed? 1627 01:34:28.880 --> 01:34:30.079 Probably okay? 1628 01:34:31.479 --> 01:34:34.039 And then ask you restrain them? 1629 01:34:34.079 --> 01:34:36.560 It sounds like just with their wrists by their wrists, 1630 01:34:36.640 --> 01:34:37.079 is that right? 1631 01:34:38.000 --> 01:34:38.800 Yeah? Okay? 1632 01:34:39.039 --> 01:34:40.960 And did they stay on the bed or did they 1633 01:34:41.000 --> 01:34:43.439 go somewhere else? No. 1634 01:34:43.600 --> 01:34:46.720 I told them. I had them roll over on their 1635 01:34:46.720 --> 01:34:51.439 stomachs and I, you know, I told them to keep 1636 01:34:51.479 --> 01:34:53.680 their faces down on the pillow and not look look 1637 01:34:53.720 --> 01:34:59.199 at anything or talk or anything. And after they had 1638 01:34:59.239 --> 01:35:02.640 done that, told them to put their hands behind their backs, 1639 01:35:02.640 --> 01:35:05.039 and that's I restrained their wrists and just told them 1640 01:35:05.079 --> 01:35:05.680 to stay there. 1641 01:35:06.840 --> 01:35:11.279 So basically you were able to control them, at least initially, 1642 01:35:12.399 --> 01:35:15.720 just by the fact that they did they knew you 1643 01:35:15.720 --> 01:35:16.239 had a gun. 1644 01:35:18.760 --> 01:35:20.680 I don't think they knew that they I told them 1645 01:35:20.680 --> 01:35:21.239 I had a gun. 1646 01:35:21.319 --> 01:35:25.359 Yeah, And uh, well, they obviously got the message. 1647 01:35:24.960 --> 01:35:29.359 That you meant business, right, Not really that was kind 1648 01:35:29.359 --> 01:35:33.960 of the problem. 1649 01:35:31.039 --> 01:35:37.279 Uh, I mean, I I'm trying to you know, picture 1650 01:35:37.359 --> 01:35:40.880 this in my mind, and I imagine when you go 1651 01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:45.680 in there, you you are, you know, kind of kind 1652 01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:47.199 of like when I kick a door in and I 1653 01:35:47.479 --> 01:35:51.159 tell people to get on the ground. It's obvious just 1654 01:35:51.199 --> 01:35:54.600 from the tone of my voice that that you don't 1655 01:35:54.640 --> 01:35:57.279 want to mess you don't want to not do what 1656 01:35:57.319 --> 01:36:00.439 I'm telling you to do. I mean, is that a 1657 01:36:00.479 --> 01:36:01.159 similar thing? 1658 01:36:03.680 --> 01:36:10.039 Yeah, you know, initially that's that's the way it went down. 1659 01:36:10.159 --> 01:36:14.000 But once the. 1660 01:36:16.359 --> 01:36:19.039 I guess, once they realized what's going on, what's really 1661 01:36:19.079 --> 01:36:19.520 going on? 1662 01:36:19.720 --> 01:36:24.000 Is that you know, did they if you were gonna 1663 01:36:24.039 --> 01:36:26.039 kill him? I mean, like it was that big thing? 1664 01:36:26.199 --> 01:36:29.880 Or did it? Was it more like? What? What? What's 1665 01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:30.359 going on? 1666 01:36:31.960 --> 01:36:38.039 I think they were incredulous of the whole situation, and 1667 01:36:38.039 --> 01:36:42.039 and that was part of the problem is they didn't 1668 01:36:42.079 --> 01:36:44.359 realize how serious the situation was. 1669 01:36:44.479 --> 01:36:46.279 I think they thought that they could. 1670 01:36:47.319 --> 01:36:49.359 Talk their way out of it or negotiate their way 1671 01:36:49.399 --> 01:36:52.439 out of it. And are they trying to like build 1672 01:36:52.520 --> 01:36:58.399 rapport with you, like, yeah, okay, gotcha. Did you get 1673 01:36:58.399 --> 01:37:00.880 the sense that they had been dreat before they went 1674 01:37:00.920 --> 01:37:04.159 to bed? Like have you just smell alcohol in your 1675 01:37:04.199 --> 01:37:08.279 breath or anything like that? No, I didn't know. 1676 01:37:08.479 --> 01:37:11.760 I I think I knew that there were somebody had 1677 01:37:11.800 --> 01:37:14.520 been drinking in the house, because I remember seeing something 1678 01:37:14.520 --> 01:37:18.359 to that effect. And I knew that she smoked, And 1679 01:37:20.199 --> 01:37:23.039 I don't beyond that, I don't. I didn't notice anything 1680 01:37:23.039 --> 01:37:23.960 about them personally. 1681 01:37:24.039 --> 01:37:25.880 No, you let her smoke, buddy too. 1682 01:37:27.439 --> 01:37:29.760 I think I didn't let her smoke or time or two? 1683 01:37:29.880 --> 01:37:33.039 Yeah, okay, when did you do that? 1684 01:37:33.079 --> 01:37:35.039 When they were you were still at their house. 1685 01:37:34.880 --> 01:37:36.520 Or when you went to the farmhouse when we were 1686 01:37:36.520 --> 01:37:37.319 at the farmhouse. 1687 01:37:37.640 --> 01:37:39.600 So did you unrestrained her during that time? 1688 01:37:39.960 --> 01:37:40.119 No? 1689 01:37:41.159 --> 01:37:42.960 Well did you hold a cigarette up to her about 1690 01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:43.319 for her? 1691 01:37:43.920 --> 01:37:44.279 Yeah? 1692 01:37:45.079 --> 01:37:47.680 I mean I she wasn't in restraints the whole time, 1693 01:37:47.760 --> 01:37:49.560 but initially she was. 1694 01:37:49.880 --> 01:37:53.239 Yeah, Okay, it was during that time that she let 1695 01:37:53.279 --> 01:37:53.640 her smoke. 1696 01:37:54.199 --> 01:37:55.920 I let her smoke a couple of different times. 1697 01:37:56.239 --> 01:37:58.560 Okay, after her initial. 1698 01:38:00.720 --> 01:38:03.880 Attempt to get away, did she try to get away again? 1699 01:38:04.520 --> 01:38:05.359 Yeah? 1700 01:38:05.439 --> 01:38:06.560 And when did that happen? 1701 01:38:08.560 --> 01:38:10.399 That happened when I was. 1702 01:38:13.199 --> 01:38:16.840 Dealing with the situation with mister Curry in the basement. 1703 01:38:18.079 --> 01:38:20.119 I think she, I mean, she could hear what was 1704 01:38:20.239 --> 01:38:20.760 that there was. 1705 01:38:20.720 --> 01:38:23.119 Something going on, and I think I already had her 1706 01:38:23.119 --> 01:38:24.960 tied up pretty well by then, but I could tell 1707 01:38:24.960 --> 01:38:27.079 when I got back up that she'd been trying to 1708 01:38:27.800 --> 01:38:28.600 get away. 1709 01:38:28.720 --> 01:38:32.439 Okay, and she was she successful in any way and 1710 01:38:32.479 --> 01:38:33.199 trying to get away? 1711 01:38:33.560 --> 01:38:34.039 Not really? 1712 01:38:34.119 --> 01:38:36.600 No, did you tell her that those? 1713 01:38:36.680 --> 01:38:39.720 Did she? Well? 1714 01:38:40.640 --> 01:38:42.359 No, I never told her that. 1715 01:38:42.479 --> 01:38:44.920 Now Or do you think she knew it? 1716 01:38:45.960 --> 01:38:47.119 I don't know what she thought. 1717 01:38:47.359 --> 01:38:52.159 I mean, she she knew that there was definitely an 1718 01:38:52.239 --> 01:38:54.479 altercation in the basement, and. 1719 01:38:56.800 --> 01:38:57.439 She may have. 1720 01:38:57.520 --> 01:39:02.119 Suspected that there were I don't I don't really think 1721 01:39:02.199 --> 01:39:02.720 I think. 1722 01:39:02.560 --> 01:39:04.359 She knew that I came up and got a gun, 1723 01:39:05.039 --> 01:39:06.680 But I don't know if she knew that I had 1724 01:39:07.000 --> 01:39:09.880 shot it, because she probably wouldn't have recognized it as 1725 01:39:09.920 --> 01:39:11.159 a gunshot. 1726 01:39:13.800 --> 01:39:15.720 To make more of a clicking noise when you when 1727 01:39:15.760 --> 01:39:17.039 you had that silence are on it. 1728 01:39:18.640 --> 01:39:20.840 The only I mean, with that silencer on it, the 1729 01:39:20.880 --> 01:39:23.720 only thing you could hear was the sound of the 1730 01:39:23.760 --> 01:39:27.479 bolt going back and forth. And of course you can 1731 01:39:27.520 --> 01:39:28.479 hear the bullet sitting. 1732 01:39:28.640 --> 01:39:33.199 But yeah, but from here it's probably not especially I mean, 1733 01:39:33.239 --> 01:39:34.319 is it raining at this time? 1734 01:39:35.880 --> 01:39:37.880 I think it has started raining again at some point. 1735 01:39:37.920 --> 01:39:39.600 I remember there was a hole in the roof and 1736 01:39:39.640 --> 01:39:42.359 there was a lot of water pouring down in one 1737 01:39:42.600 --> 01:39:43.920 through one portion of the house. 1738 01:39:44.000 --> 01:39:51.000 Yeah, yeah, you uh, you mentioned it's something like a 1739 01:39:51.159 --> 01:39:55.840 like a hole cut into the floor for for a 1740 01:39:55.920 --> 01:39:57.960 pipe to go through or something like that, because I 1741 01:39:57.960 --> 01:40:00.399 know you'd said something about your camp stop falling down 1742 01:40:00.439 --> 01:40:04.000 through it or something. Yeah. Did you get the feeling 1743 01:40:04.039 --> 01:40:06.600 that there was a it was for a woodstove pipe 1744 01:40:06.760 --> 01:40:07.600 or something like that. 1745 01:40:07.880 --> 01:40:09.680 Yeah, I think that's exactly what it was. 1746 01:40:10.039 --> 01:40:16.239 Okay, all right, Well she was and from the sound 1747 01:40:16.319 --> 01:40:19.640 of the thing, she was pretty intact, I mean physically 1748 01:40:20.359 --> 01:40:26.359 until until like the last time you were done with 1749 01:40:26.399 --> 01:40:29.520 her upstairs in your heart and you mentioned strangling her 1750 01:40:29.560 --> 01:40:31.399 and she had she had kind of given up or 1751 01:40:31.439 --> 01:40:35.119 something like that. Am I right? Is that is that accurate? 1752 01:40:36.600 --> 01:40:41.640 Or did you did did you injure or or rubber 1753 01:40:41.800 --> 01:40:45.039 up or in any way before that? 1754 01:40:46.439 --> 01:40:49.960 Well, it sounds like you heard the description. 1755 01:40:49.600 --> 01:40:53.920 I gave of well I understood, Yeah, I did, And 1756 01:40:54.359 --> 01:40:58.640 I just I don't have a full understanding of what 1757 01:40:58.680 --> 01:41:01.119 you were explaining. And maybe it's because you know, I 1758 01:41:01.159 --> 01:41:04.880 listened to it over a week ago and heard it once. 1759 01:41:06.640 --> 01:41:09.079 But but it sounds like you may have rubbed her 1760 01:41:09.159 --> 01:41:11.560 up a bit when she tried to escape the first time. 1761 01:41:13.000 --> 01:41:17.079 Yeah, I had to be a little more assertive after 1762 01:41:17.399 --> 01:41:19.279 after that point you. 1763 01:41:19.239 --> 01:41:22.960 Slap her around or punch her or you choked her, 1764 01:41:23.079 --> 01:41:26.439 And what's what's the I didn't hit her. I think 1765 01:41:26.479 --> 01:41:27.840 I grabbed her by the hair. 1766 01:41:27.680 --> 01:41:31.840 And and maybe by the back of the neck and 1767 01:41:31.840 --> 01:41:33.720 and to take her into the house. 1768 01:41:34.399 --> 01:41:40.159 Okay, all right, and now you bring her downstairs to 1769 01:41:40.279 --> 01:41:44.920 finish her off. But but you mentioned that she's she's 1770 01:41:45.039 --> 01:41:47.760 kind of out of it as you bring her downstairs. 1771 01:41:49.039 --> 01:41:52.000 Had you had you choked her out before or it 1772 01:41:52.079 --> 01:41:55.119 was it's just a result of all she had been through. 1773 01:41:58.079 --> 01:42:00.159 Well, I'm sure it was a comedy. I mean, uh, 1774 01:42:02.119 --> 01:42:02.880 I had. 1775 01:42:04.159 --> 01:42:04.720 Choked her. 1776 01:42:05.399 --> 01:42:08.439 It is choking. I guess that is that a part 1777 01:42:08.479 --> 01:42:11.760 of what you do because I know you you mentioned 1778 01:42:11.760 --> 01:42:17.560 that the whole tying up bondage thing is is is 1779 01:42:17.600 --> 01:42:20.840 important to you. I guess for no other for lack 1780 01:42:20.880 --> 01:42:26.760 of a better term, is choking a big element of 1781 01:42:26.800 --> 01:42:40.119 this whole thing too? Yeah, okay, all right, So telling you, 1782 01:42:40.239 --> 01:42:42.840 I mean, you're pretty angry that things didn't go exactly 1783 01:42:43.000 --> 01:42:46.279 the way you wanted them to. Would this have had 1784 01:42:46.319 --> 01:42:50.279 any different conclusion? I mean, you've never had any intention 1785 01:42:50.319 --> 01:42:56.399 of letting these people live, did you no? Okay? All right, 1786 01:42:58.840 --> 01:43:01.840 I can't think of anything else. Use right now, anybody 1787 01:43:01.840 --> 01:43:05.880 else or Israel if you, if you have any questions, 1788 01:43:06.359 --> 01:43:06.920 jump right in. 1789 01:43:09.319 --> 01:43:13.880 I know, mister Keith, this is Mary Morrison, and honestly, 1790 01:43:13.960 --> 01:43:18.359 and I had written a letter to the folks out 1791 01:43:18.359 --> 01:43:21.000 there that I think you've been. You've stayed a coffee. 1792 01:43:20.640 --> 01:43:24.439 Of yeah, okay, And obviously. 1793 01:43:24.039 --> 01:43:27.399 We appreciate your willingness to give us information today because 1794 01:43:27.399 --> 01:43:30.520 it helps us close out this aspect of our case. 1795 01:43:30.640 --> 01:43:35.680 And as you know, this case is a very big 1796 01:43:35.720 --> 01:43:39.960 deal in the state. We don't have people go missing 1797 01:43:40.760 --> 01:43:44.000 very often, and when they do, they're normally found fairly quickly. 1798 01:43:44.119 --> 01:43:46.600 In this case with Warner, anniversary is coming up. 1799 01:43:46.920 --> 01:43:50.039 Here in just a few days, and we expect there 1800 01:43:50.079 --> 01:43:52.119 to be a lot of media attention on this. 1801 01:43:52.119 --> 01:43:54.640 And we expect them to be painting the. 1802 01:43:54.520 --> 01:43:58.359 Police in a fairly unfavorable light about the fact that 1803 01:43:58.399 --> 01:44:00.479 it was not made in the rest in the case. 1804 01:44:01.319 --> 01:44:03.800 And obviously we have information right now as to who 1805 01:44:03.840 --> 01:44:08.159 did it, and we have made a commitment on our 1806 01:44:08.239 --> 01:44:13.319 part to not attaching your name to this case, and 1807 01:44:13.399 --> 01:44:18.000 we've agreed to not charge you in Vermont without specific 1808 01:44:18.239 --> 01:44:20.119 permission from the federal authorities. 1809 01:44:20.479 --> 01:44:21.680 But that's based. 1810 01:44:22.840 --> 01:44:27.840 Wholly in part on you providing information about this victim 1811 01:44:27.840 --> 01:44:31.840 in New York, and I understand that you're reluctant or 1812 01:44:31.880 --> 01:44:34.760 hesitant to give to give that information. 1813 01:44:35.000 --> 01:44:35.680 Is that correct? 1814 01:44:36.239 --> 01:44:36.359 Well? 1815 01:44:36.439 --> 01:44:38.640 Yeah, if I can jump in, Israel, I just just 1816 01:44:38.800 --> 01:44:40.520 marry is is friends, just to let you know what 1817 01:44:40.600 --> 01:44:43.079 we had a discussion of beforehand. 1818 01:44:43.800 --> 01:44:45.399 You know, I think Israel just needs. 1819 01:44:45.279 --> 01:44:49.520 Some questions sounds like answering about the letter, about the situation. 1820 01:44:50.319 --> 01:44:54.039 But my understanding is, you know, he's never he's never 1821 01:44:54.119 --> 01:44:57.039 wavered from the fact that he is going to tell 1822 01:44:57.119 --> 01:44:58.119 us about New York. 1823 01:44:58.159 --> 01:45:00.840 And obviously Israel can correct me if I'm wrong. 1824 01:45:02.239 --> 01:45:09.640 Correct, that's you know, that's prior to everything up to 1825 01:45:09.680 --> 01:45:13.880 this point. The main specifics of what I've been discussing 1826 01:45:14.000 --> 01:45:18.439 with investigators here have all been things that took place 1827 01:45:18.600 --> 01:45:23.960 within the last year, with the exception of a trip 1828 01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:27.359 that Vermont was also involved in. I believe they said 1829 01:45:27.359 --> 01:45:31.640 it was two thousand and nine. So I mean, I've 1830 01:45:31.640 --> 01:45:34.680 given them some information on that trip. I'm just hesitant 1831 01:45:34.720 --> 01:45:40.439 to reveal too much more about what happened on that trip. 1832 01:45:40.520 --> 01:45:45.199 Until I find out what my options are as far 1833 01:45:45.279 --> 01:45:54.199 as potential agreement or negotiation we can come to regarding 1834 01:45:57.199 --> 01:46:00.960 whether or not I'm charged with it for number number one, 1835 01:46:01.119 --> 01:46:05.600 and at what time that information becomes public that I'm 1836 01:46:06.039 --> 01:46:10.039 that I'm responsible for for not just the things that 1837 01:46:10.680 --> 01:46:13.239 have happened within the last year, but things that happened 1838 01:46:13.239 --> 01:46:13.960 to prior to that. 1839 01:46:13.960 --> 01:46:16.279 That's what my concern is at this point. 1840 01:46:17.159 --> 01:46:20.079 Right well, And I mean, I don't understand you've got 1841 01:46:20.119 --> 01:46:23.840 lawyers out there that you can, you know, consult with 1842 01:46:23.960 --> 01:46:26.520 if you like. And I just want to dress one 1843 01:46:26.560 --> 01:46:28.960 thing because in the beginning of this conversation you asked, 1844 01:46:29.399 --> 01:46:31.399 I guess it may have been through Frank whether or 1845 01:46:31.439 --> 01:46:36.319 not Essex was found by this by that letter, right right, 1846 01:46:36.760 --> 01:46:38.800 And I mean, I'm not sure if you're. 1847 01:46:38.800 --> 01:46:40.439 Looking at this letter and trying. 1848 01:46:40.199 --> 01:46:42.399 To pick it apart and see if there's some like 1849 01:46:42.479 --> 01:46:45.840 wiggle room or whatever there for us. And I mean, 1850 01:46:45.880 --> 01:46:46.840 I'm kind. 1851 01:46:46.600 --> 01:46:48.079 Of I'm pretty straightforward. 1852 01:46:48.159 --> 01:46:51.199 This is a commandment we've made because we're very interested, 1853 01:46:51.880 --> 01:46:54.920 obviously in closing out other cases if we can. 1854 01:46:55.039 --> 01:46:57.399 I mean, my focus right now is Vermont in New York. 1855 01:46:57.479 --> 01:46:59.800 And that's it for right now. 1856 01:47:00.039 --> 01:47:05.920 And our commitment is entirely dependent on that information being provided. 1857 01:47:05.960 --> 01:47:07.920 And I understand that you know you've got questions. I'm 1858 01:47:07.920 --> 01:47:10.399 sure the legitimate questions that you want answered, But I'm 1859 01:47:10.439 --> 01:47:12.920 just trying to be direct and forth right with you 1860 01:47:13.279 --> 01:47:16.239 that that's the linchpin of the agreement for us. 1861 01:47:16.800 --> 01:47:20.039 Well, I mean, in my mind, I don't feel that 1862 01:47:20.159 --> 01:47:23.279 I owe you anything per se because as far as 1863 01:47:23.960 --> 01:47:26.840 the couriers are concerned, the only thing I've asked is 1864 01:47:26.880 --> 01:47:28.720 that my name not be attached to it. 1865 01:47:28.760 --> 01:47:31.479 You have all your information. You should have. 1866 01:47:32.880 --> 01:47:35.439 Come to the realization by now that this crime is 1867 01:47:35.479 --> 01:47:38.920 completely solved and wrapped up and right. 1868 01:47:38.960 --> 01:47:41.520 But we're not arresting anybody for it, you know. We're 1869 01:47:41.600 --> 01:47:43.159 doing that on our agreement with you. 1870 01:47:43.520 --> 01:47:47.199 Yeah, and they obviously you know, they're not going ahead 1871 01:47:47.239 --> 01:47:47.880 and charging you. 1872 01:47:48.760 --> 01:47:51.239 We're dealing with the public. Follow Yeah, I love that, 1873 01:47:51.920 --> 01:47:55.399 which which isn't isn't great because you know, as far 1874 01:47:55.439 --> 01:47:57.800 as they're concerned, we haven't solved this thing. 1875 01:47:59.239 --> 01:48:01.680 Well, I mean, and the public knows you're looking for 1876 01:48:01.720 --> 01:48:04.079 the bodies, which is more than you had a few 1877 01:48:04.119 --> 01:48:04.560 months ago. 1878 01:48:04.920 --> 01:48:08.199 Well, don't get don't get me wrong, it's it's uh 1879 01:48:08.319 --> 01:48:11.520 I've lived with this case for well going on a 1880 01:48:11.560 --> 01:48:17.800 year now, and uh yeah, since April. I yeah, I'm 1881 01:48:17.800 --> 01:48:22.840 in a different place. Uh but you know that. I 1882 01:48:23.600 --> 01:48:26.399 guess it's not my issue to to speak about the 1883 01:48:26.560 --> 01:48:29.319 agreement and stuff like that. So I'll just leave all 1884 01:48:29.359 --> 01:48:33.560 that stuff to to Marry and and the other attorneys, 1885 01:48:34.840 --> 01:48:40.039 and I just I appreciate you giving me additional details 1886 01:48:40.680 --> 01:48:44.840 which you have and if you if you don't mind, 1887 01:48:44.880 --> 01:48:48.159 I want to ask you a personal question. I went 1888 01:48:48.199 --> 01:48:51.680 on your website. Did you do all that carpentry that 1889 01:48:51.680 --> 01:48:54.800 that the photos are all about? Yeah? 1890 01:48:55.399 --> 01:48:57.600 Yeah, I mean everything that was on the website or. 1891 01:48:57.840 --> 01:49:00.239 Yeah, where did you learn to do that? Yeah? 1892 01:49:00.960 --> 01:49:02.840 Oh? Practice makes perfect. 1893 01:49:04.079 --> 01:49:06.199 With that, I said, practice makes perfect. 1894 01:49:06.239 --> 01:49:08.600 I've been doing it, you know, since I was seventeen. 1895 01:49:08.760 --> 01:49:14.039 So I mean, you're amazing. You're an amazing carpenter. I 1896 01:49:14.079 --> 01:49:17.520 wish you would have stayed that. I've always been, you 1897 01:49:17.600 --> 01:49:22.319 know what I mean. But okay, well, thanks for your time. 1898 01:49:22.600 --> 01:49:24.840 Are there questions I can answer, mister kath in terms 1899 01:49:24.840 --> 01:49:25.840 of the letter or not. 1900 01:49:27.960 --> 01:49:30.800 I do have some concerns about the way the letter's worded, 1901 01:49:30.880 --> 01:49:33.880 but I don't have an issue with with your commitment 1902 01:49:34.159 --> 01:49:36.359 it's things. It's all things that I think we can 1903 01:49:36.399 --> 01:49:38.199 work out from this end good. 1904 01:49:38.239 --> 01:49:42.600 And that's obviously I'm encouraged to hear that. And like 1905 01:49:42.640 --> 01:49:44.399 I said, that's that's why, that's why. 1906 01:49:44.239 --> 01:49:44.720 I wrote it. 1907 01:49:44.760 --> 01:49:46.640 So I guess I just wanted to reassure you that 1908 01:49:47.479 --> 01:49:51.520 to the extent there to extend, the concerns may exist, 1909 01:49:51.560 --> 01:49:53.359 there's certainly weren't intentional. 1910 01:49:53.479 --> 01:49:54.760 I'm telling you right now. 1911 01:49:54.600 --> 01:49:57.760 That the commitment we made was in order to get 1912 01:49:57.800 --> 01:50:01.520 this information in the commitment stands well. 1913 01:50:01.560 --> 01:50:04.119 I mean, I I always said, I feel I know 1914 01:50:04.800 --> 01:50:07.119 that right now there's hasn't been a lot of new 1915 01:50:07.119 --> 01:50:10.880 information you have on on things that happened prior to 1916 01:50:11.000 --> 01:50:12.000 within the last year. 1917 01:50:12.039 --> 01:50:13.439 But I'm still. 1918 01:50:14.159 --> 01:50:16.880 Pretty confident that it can. 1919 01:50:16.760 --> 01:50:21.800 Be worked out to where investigators get everything that they 1920 01:50:21.840 --> 01:50:25.760 want and need to close the rest of these cases. 1921 01:50:27.800 --> 01:50:31.840 But yeah, it's it's it's. 1922 01:50:31.520 --> 01:50:36.079 Not gonna happen overnight because I have some concerns about 1923 01:50:36.359 --> 01:50:41.439 like my long term my fate, if you will, and 1924 01:50:41.439 --> 01:50:43.760 and those are the last cards I have to play. 1925 01:50:43.760 --> 01:50:46.039 And I know that, so you know, I it's not 1926 01:50:46.199 --> 01:50:48.760 it's not anything personal that I'm withholding information. 1927 01:50:48.800 --> 01:50:51.640 It's just there's some other unresolved issues that. 1928 01:50:51.640 --> 01:50:53.960 I'm dealing with right now that I want to want 1929 01:50:54.000 --> 01:50:57.279 to make sure I have an understanding of it before 1930 01:50:57.279 --> 01:51:02.960 I before I jump in with both feet on some 1931 01:51:03.000 --> 01:51:03.960 of these other things. 1932 01:51:04.600 --> 01:51:07.079 Okay, what now of tho those issues have nothing to 1933 01:51:07.119 --> 01:51:09.359 do without directly. 1934 01:51:09.039 --> 01:51:13.439 Them, No, I think frankly, I've been pretty impressed with 1935 01:51:13.680 --> 01:51:19.640 the lack of media attention on, you know, what's been 1936 01:51:19.680 --> 01:51:21.039 going on in a career case. 1937 01:51:21.119 --> 01:51:27.279 I there was, Yeah, there's I mean, I know that. 1938 01:51:27.319 --> 01:51:30.000 It can't be easy from your perspective to keep this 1939 01:51:30.079 --> 01:51:33.000 thing under wraps at this point, and so I have 1940 01:51:33.119 --> 01:51:36.920 been impressed that it's been that my name hasn't been 1941 01:51:36.920 --> 01:51:40.239 attached to it yet, and if it can stay that way, 1942 01:51:40.359 --> 01:51:42.359 that's will definitely. 1943 01:51:44.039 --> 01:51:45.680 Speed up the process. 1944 01:51:45.840 --> 01:51:48.159 I realize it's not going to be that way indefinitely, 1945 01:51:48.239 --> 01:51:49.560 but yeah, right, well. 1946 01:51:49.399 --> 01:51:51.680 And you're right, I mean, it hasn't been easy because 1947 01:51:51.680 --> 01:51:56.239 it's George described you the I think early on when 1948 01:51:56.239 --> 01:52:00.920 people heard that the jump site had been able to 1949 01:52:00.960 --> 01:52:03.920 focused it or you know, limit where we would have 1950 01:52:03.960 --> 01:52:05.880 to search to a pretty specific area, I think we 1951 01:52:05.880 --> 01:52:07.960 thought it might be a lot smaller, and it's not. 1952 01:52:08.079 --> 01:52:10.920 It's a big, big area so it requires a lot 1953 01:52:10.960 --> 01:52:13.479 of people to go through it, and so there's a 1954 01:52:13.479 --> 01:52:15.399 lot of people working on it. So to contain that 1955 01:52:15.479 --> 01:52:18.880 information is a lot of effort, and it's hard because, 1956 01:52:18.880 --> 01:52:21.920 as I said, you have not only you know, the 1957 01:52:21.960 --> 01:52:24.479 pressure from you in the sense that if this gets out, 1958 01:52:24.520 --> 01:52:26.680 then you may not give information. So that's obviously a 1959 01:52:26.720 --> 01:52:29.279 real factor for us, but also we've got a lot 1960 01:52:29.319 --> 01:52:31.720 of public pressure because it is a big deal here 1961 01:52:31.760 --> 01:52:33.279 and people want to know what happened. 1962 01:52:33.279 --> 01:52:35.680 They know we're looking for bodies that they assume. 1963 01:52:35.760 --> 01:52:38.520 I think that we're looking for bodies based on credible 1964 01:52:38.520 --> 01:52:41.560 information that the bodies are there, and you. 1965 01:52:41.720 --> 01:52:45.159 Don't put the huge amount of resources. 1966 01:52:44.600 --> 01:52:48.000 Into this search without some credible information. I think people 1967 01:52:48.079 --> 01:52:50.760 understand that, and there's been a lot of pressure on 1968 01:52:50.920 --> 01:52:54.199 us to do something about that, to respond to that. 1969 01:52:54.359 --> 01:52:58.159 And I'm hoping that when you say that our silence 1970 01:52:58.520 --> 01:53:00.319 and attaching your name to it can be that this 1971 01:53:00.439 --> 01:53:04.840 process it's true and we can, you know, move forward 1972 01:53:04.880 --> 01:53:06.640 because it's hard for us. 1973 01:53:06.760 --> 01:53:10.159 So yeah, well, well yeah, I think I think it 1974 01:53:10.199 --> 01:53:11.479 will good. 1975 01:53:12.239 --> 01:53:15.479 Israel is there ever do you do you ever see 1976 01:53:15.520 --> 01:53:22.079 a time that you might feel like you're willing to 1977 01:53:22.119 --> 01:53:27.279 discuss the more intimate details about what happened, uh to 1978 01:53:27.279 --> 01:53:33.399 to Bill and Lorraine. And the reason I'm asking that is, 1979 01:53:35.000 --> 01:53:40.479 you know, just as a cop, and I I am 1980 01:53:40.600 --> 01:53:46.159 very curious as to you know, the whole method of this. 1981 01:53:46.760 --> 01:53:50.560 And you know, it sounds to me like you're you're 1982 01:53:50.600 --> 01:53:54.760 a very organized guy, and maybe this is something better 1983 01:53:54.840 --> 01:53:59.439 for you know, the FBI, uh, you know, shrinks to 1984 01:53:59.439 --> 01:54:04.079 to way over. But but is that something you're gonna 1985 01:54:04.399 --> 01:54:06.000 You're gonna carry you to the grave or is there 1986 01:54:06.079 --> 01:54:10.680 some point where you might enlighten some of us about that. 1987 01:54:12.399 --> 01:54:19.560 Well, there's for now a lot of the details that 1988 01:54:19.560 --> 01:54:24.840 that happened between well, for example, in the couriers. 1989 01:54:25.039 --> 01:54:27.119 You know, those those details. 1990 01:54:27.279 --> 01:54:30.039 I've given you your bottom line, you know, you know, 1991 01:54:31.199 --> 01:54:34.720 you know what my basic motivations are. And as far 1992 01:54:34.720 --> 01:54:42.239 as my specific motivations, that's, uh, that's something I I 1993 01:54:42.279 --> 01:54:45.159 can't answer your question as far as when or if 1994 01:54:45.199 --> 01:54:48.640 I might be able to talk about that, I. 1995 01:54:48.439 --> 01:54:51.640 Imagine, I mean, you're gonna have if you obviously have 1996 01:54:51.720 --> 01:54:55.079 a lot of time to reflect on on your own 1997 01:54:55.119 --> 01:55:01.520 life and uh, and if I'm assuming correct, you did. 1998 01:55:02.119 --> 01:55:06.399 You didn't wake up one morning and decide that this 1999 01:55:06.560 --> 01:55:08.199 is what you wanted to do with your life. 2000 01:55:09.880 --> 01:55:10.079 You know. 2001 01:55:10.159 --> 01:55:12.520 As to whether you have any regrets or anything, or 2002 01:55:12.560 --> 01:55:14.960 feel sorry or anything like that, that's not what I'm 2003 01:55:14.960 --> 01:55:21.560 talking about. But as as somebody you know who's, like 2004 01:55:21.600 --> 01:55:23.399 I said, I've been I've been in this business for 2005 01:55:23.439 --> 01:55:29.800 twenty eight years, and I'm very interested in people and 2006 01:55:29.840 --> 01:55:34.600 why they make the choices that they do. So, I mean, 2007 01:55:34.640 --> 01:55:39.039 I think that would be of a lot of value, 2008 01:55:39.800 --> 01:55:42.079 not just to me personally, but but to all of 2009 01:55:42.159 --> 01:55:47.039 us too, you know, to explore that at some point, 2010 01:55:47.159 --> 01:55:50.159 And I understand that's not now, but you know, at 2011 01:55:50.159 --> 01:55:52.720 some point I'd certainly be interested in that. 2012 01:55:53.840 --> 01:55:56.880 Well, I think the short answer to what you're asking 2013 01:55:57.720 --> 01:56:01.439 me specifically, the way I think of it, I don't 2014 01:56:01.479 --> 01:56:04.720 really consider myself all that different or all that special 2015 01:56:04.800 --> 01:56:10.119 from hundreds of thousands of other people. All you have 2016 01:56:10.159 --> 01:56:14.399 to do is type in a word search on any 2017 01:56:14.479 --> 01:56:17.680 given corn sight, and you know there's all kinds of 2018 01:56:17.680 --> 01:56:21.800 people who have fantasies about rape and bondage, and you know, 2019 01:56:22.039 --> 01:56:24.920 the kinds of things that I take to another level. 2020 01:56:25.520 --> 01:56:30.680 Yeah, and I get that. And from what the as 2021 01:56:30.720 --> 01:56:33.800 it was explained to me is, you know, people early 2022 01:56:34.039 --> 01:56:41.680 early in life who can, through neglect or abuse, feel 2023 01:56:41.760 --> 01:56:45.199 that they don't have any control over their life develop 2024 01:56:45.800 --> 01:56:49.680 control fantasies over their life, and some of them involve 2025 01:56:50.079 --> 01:56:54.399 the violence and inflicting pain. I mean, so, I mean, 2026 01:56:54.439 --> 01:56:57.159 I don't. But the other side of the coin is 2027 01:56:57.720 --> 01:57:01.960 you're not I mean, you're not one hundred thousand other people. 2028 01:57:02.000 --> 01:57:06.319 You're you, and you know you've got specific reasons why 2029 01:57:06.640 --> 01:57:11.039 why you chose to do the things you get. You 2030 01:57:11.039 --> 01:57:13.479 get where I'm coming from. 2031 01:57:13.680 --> 01:57:18.279 Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I am I 2032 01:57:18.319 --> 01:57:23.560 still disagree that there's I think with me, it's a 2033 01:57:23.600 --> 01:57:26.000 combination of things. It's not you know, it's not just 2034 01:57:26.079 --> 01:57:31.319 about the sexual fantasies and it's not it's definitely not 2035 01:57:31.479 --> 01:57:34.239 just about the money, and it's not just about the adrenaline. 2036 01:57:34.239 --> 01:57:37.960 But it's all those things together and that's what I 2037 01:57:38.000 --> 01:57:42.880 get out of it. And once I started doing, you know, 2038 01:57:43.000 --> 01:57:46.920 once I did it. 2039 01:57:45.640 --> 01:57:48.840 The practice makes perfect, like you said, right, Yeah, well 2040 01:57:49.199 --> 01:57:49.960 not so much that. 2041 01:57:50.159 --> 01:57:54.279 It was more once I started, you know, and there 2042 01:57:54.359 --> 01:57:55.720 was nothing else like it. 2043 01:57:55.800 --> 01:57:59.840 So yeah, I bet are you familiar with this guy 2044 01:58:00.119 --> 01:58:04.760 handsome from up in Alaska that that was labeled the 2045 01:58:04.840 --> 01:58:08.560 serial killer that used to capture people. And yeah, I 2046 01:58:08.600 --> 01:58:11.680 mean it happened right around this lake. Matt Muska, I mean, 2047 01:58:12.039 --> 01:58:14.159 is this a guy that I mean, you you ever 2048 01:58:15.199 --> 01:58:17.600 do you ever look into any of that stuff about 2049 01:58:17.720 --> 01:58:18.640 other people like that? 2050 01:58:19.520 --> 01:58:23.399 I probably know every single serial killer that's ever been 2051 01:58:23.399 --> 01:58:23.960 written about. 2052 01:58:23.960 --> 01:58:26.880 It's kind of a hobby line. So are you familiar 2053 01:58:26.880 --> 01:58:30.439 with the handsome guy? Yeah? Okay, is he still wied 2054 01:58:30.439 --> 01:58:32.159 by any chance? Yeah? I think so. 2055 01:58:32.439 --> 01:58:35.239 He's a little before my time, but yeah, he's ensewered 2056 01:58:35.319 --> 01:58:35.720 up here. 2057 01:58:36.239 --> 01:58:39.920 Okay, I'm just curious. I mean, I'm curious, guy, I guess. 2058 01:58:40.039 --> 01:58:44.319 So once again, once again, I'll say finally and U 2059 01:58:45.000 --> 01:58:49.640 and I appreciate your time, all right, and our just. 2060 01:58:49.319 --> 01:58:50.960 Just to wrap up from my end to things. 2061 01:58:51.399 --> 01:58:54.239 You know, our commitment the letter, that is the commitment 2062 01:58:54.279 --> 01:58:57.920 that we put in the letter is is valid and 2063 01:58:58.119 --> 01:59:01.239 is concrete in a solid so long as you are cooperating. 2064 01:59:01.279 --> 01:59:03.960 I mean, it doesn't It's not like earlier when I 2065 01:59:03.960 --> 01:59:05.479 said our focus is obviously Vermont in New. 2066 01:59:05.479 --> 01:59:07.199 York, which is what it is right now. 2067 01:59:07.760 --> 01:59:09.680 It's not like if you give New York that suddenly 2068 01:59:09.720 --> 01:59:12.319 we're saying, okay, well we're writing to charge if you're 2069 01:59:12.359 --> 01:59:14.920 cooperating out there. You know, the commitment in a letter 2070 01:59:15.520 --> 01:59:16.319 remains intact. 2071 01:59:16.720 --> 01:59:17.840 All right, I appreciate that. 2072 01:59:18.199 --> 01:59:18.479 Okay. 2073 01:59:18.640 --> 01:59:20.479 Do you think give us a little scared when you 2074 01:59:20.800 --> 01:59:26.560 when you tried to bold out of the courtroom us too? Yeah? 2075 01:59:26.720 --> 01:59:31.039 Yeah, yeah, okay, guys, Well, thank you very much. 2076 01:59:30.920 --> 01:59:31.520 For your time. 2077 01:59:32.119 --> 01:59:33.039 All right, I appreciate it. 2078 01:59:33.079 --> 01:59:43.239 By all right, So I think that at least help them. 2079 01:59:43.319 --> 01:59:48.000 Yeah, any thoughts, Oh yeah, let's tretting that. I mean, yeah, 2080 01:59:48.520 --> 01:59:50.119 I had some concerns. 2081 01:59:49.600 --> 01:59:51.720 But I don't I'm not. I'm not worried. Now. 2082 01:59:51.880 --> 01:59:53.880 It sounds like they had already had the main interviews. 2083 01:59:53.960 --> 01:59:57.199 So yeah, they wanted to charge me. They could have 2084 01:59:57.239 --> 01:59:58.279 charged me already. 2085 01:59:58.039 --> 01:59:58.640 Right exactly. 2086 01:59:59.159 --> 02:00:01.439 And that just gives that you know that Murdy, the 2087 02:00:01.439 --> 02:00:03.319 lieutenant that you were talking to, is the one who's 2088 02:00:03.359 --> 02:00:07.720 been tormented for ten months with this being responsible for 2089 02:00:07.760 --> 02:00:10.880 this case and not having answers and just taking a 2090 02:00:10.920 --> 02:00:13.239 little bit of ownership in the investigation and getting to 2091 02:00:13.279 --> 02:00:16.319 talk to you and to satisfy you know, his investigation. 2092 02:00:16.600 --> 02:00:18.600 Yeah, I mean that being said that, you know they are. 2093 02:00:18.960 --> 02:00:21.319 Before I got in here, I talked to the prosecutor there, 2094 02:00:21.359 --> 02:00:23.520 and you know, she did you know, express some concern 2095 02:00:23.560 --> 02:00:24.840 about the heat that's going to be on them. I 2096 02:00:24.880 --> 02:00:26.760 don't know if you've seen these cases, you probably have, 2097 02:00:27.439 --> 02:00:30.399 but they start looking at, oh, the one year anniversary 2098 02:00:30.520 --> 02:00:32.760 and basically trying to make the cops look like fools 2099 02:00:32.800 --> 02:00:34.520 after the one year and now they're running around the 2100 02:00:34.560 --> 02:00:38.039 dump doing nothing, so that they do have some specific 2101 02:00:38.119 --> 02:00:40.239 concerns about that, and they just kind of in their 2102 02:00:40.279 --> 02:00:43.479 mind and certainly otherwise they just want to be assured 2103 02:00:43.520 --> 02:00:45.600 that they're doing it and they're taking the heat for 2104 02:00:45.680 --> 02:00:48.119 good reason. And that's that's what she made clear to me. 2105 02:00:48.159 --> 02:00:51.159 And I think that's valid. I mean, obviously we were 2106 02:00:51.199 --> 02:00:51.920 in the same position. 2107 02:00:52.000 --> 02:00:52.640 We'd beat Oh. 2108 02:00:52.680 --> 02:00:55.840 I don't blame them for one too. I mean the 2109 02:00:55.840 --> 02:00:58.119 easy thing up on their soapbox now and say we've 2110 02:00:58.159 --> 02:00:58.680 got it's all. 2111 02:00:58.800 --> 02:01:01.119 But it would be the easy thing for right. 2112 02:01:01.000 --> 02:01:02.439 And don't I understand that. 2113 02:01:02.520 --> 02:01:04.479 But you know, my point is is. 2114 02:01:06.239 --> 02:01:08.319 If you know they they at least they know at 2115 02:01:08.319 --> 02:01:09.039 some point. 2116 02:01:08.800 --> 02:01:11.960 Now they'll get to do that, whereas before I gave 2117 02:01:12.000 --> 02:01:14.359 them the immigration they may never have. 2118 02:01:14.359 --> 02:01:15.239 Been sure to do that. 2119 02:01:15.319 --> 02:01:18.000 There's that, but there's always people are very territorial and 2120 02:01:18.039 --> 02:01:19.840 they kind of want to you know, sort of bring 2121 02:01:19.920 --> 02:01:22.119 charge themselves, and that's a lot for them to give up, 2122 02:01:22.239 --> 02:01:25.560 being a whole different side. So I think you know 2123 02:01:25.600 --> 02:01:28.560 that they are making a sacrifice here, and I understand that. 2124 02:01:28.600 --> 02:01:30.680 You know, obviously it came from your mouth. But at 2125 02:01:30.680 --> 02:01:31.560 the end of the day, you. 2126 02:01:31.479 --> 02:01:33.840 Know, they they they want. 2127 02:01:33.680 --> 02:01:34.840 To have closure themselves. 2128 02:01:35.239 --> 02:01:37.960 But you know, I think it's it's working out as 2129 02:01:37.960 --> 02:01:40.319 well as can be expected. You know that being said, 2130 02:01:40.319 --> 02:01:42.439 they're going to get some heat whenever it is next week? 2131 02:01:42.960 --> 02:01:45.079 Is that when the anniversary is? I think it's a 2132 02:01:46.479 --> 02:01:49.439 week from today, so, but you know, hopefully we'll have 2133 02:01:49.520 --> 02:01:51.279 made some progress by then, you've had. 2134 02:01:51.119 --> 02:01:53.920 Some time to answer your questions about being a letter 2135 02:01:55.439 --> 02:01:57.600 all right, right, any other questions for me? 2136 02:02:00.359 --> 02:02:00.960 I don't think so. 2137 02:02:01.239 --> 02:02:03.199 I think, uh, Kevin will be back next week and 2138 02:02:03.239 --> 02:02:05.359 I'll be gone, so uh you know, he may wanna 2139 02:02:05.439 --> 02:02:07.720 uh kind of chat with you a little bit about Yeah, 2140 02:02:07.760 --> 02:02:08.199 I think. 2141 02:02:08.600 --> 02:02:09.039 Yeah, so. 2142 02:02:11.479 --> 02:02:13.880 That's okay with you. We'll probably schedule at that point. 2143 02:02:14.279 --> 02:02:17.920 Yeah, alright, some Yeah, I don't I'm sure what. 2144 02:02:18.319 --> 02:02:19.680 BLUs your family be out of town. 2145 02:02:20.079 --> 02:02:24.159 Yeah, schedule wolping outside of speech? 2146 02:02:27.439 --> 02:02:28.680 Alright, thanks? 2147 02:02:29.840 --> 02:02:32.000 Is it really need to hit the uh restaurant n Yeah, 2148 02:02:32.039 --> 02:02:50.920 if they did, yeah,