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Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production. As you know,

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we are celebrating my tenth year in podcasting and we're

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capping that celebration off with a three day event here

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in the Berkshires over the weekend of September twenty fifth.

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There will be studio sessions, live shows, a Bravo town hall,

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Berkshire activities like foraging, wine tasting, museum visits and more,

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and tons of special guests. Will do the Karen and

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Ellen Letters Live starring Amanda Jacobson from Wine and Crime,

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Tawny plattis famous renowned voice actress, and Chris Brayton from

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the More Gooder Than podcast. I'll be doing a very special,

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first time ever live show of the Pact with special

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guest Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed. We'll do a

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panel discussion on Unsafe Spaces featuring me, Kaz, Charlie Wirrel

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from Crime Lines, and Justin and Aaron from Generation Why.

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There will even be a live episode of Our Americana

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and a very cool Playlist by TCB episode featuring me

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and the entire research team. Guests, we'll get to check

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out my new speakeasy, the green Room, tour the studio

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and get elbow deep in the research process. This is

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a once in a lifetime event where you'll get to

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enjoy the berkshers, share fun activities with the podcast hosts

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you love the most, and really dig into podcasting and

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all the shows I have produced along with my friends.

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Book your tickets today by clicking the link in the

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show notes. And if that doesn't work for you, why

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don't you think about? If not now when? For example,

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we are going to the Galapagos Islands January eleventh through seventeenth.

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Haven't you always wanted to go? And if not now,

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when will you go? And wouldn't you go during the

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winter here in the States to escape to the warmth

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with like minded new friends who love true crime bullshit

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as much as you do, but also love the experience

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of travel, seeing animals and getting away from it all.

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These Trova trips have made me lifelong friends. They are

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such a great way to meet new people, get out

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of your world and shake things up. And like I said,

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if you're not going to go to the Galapagos now,

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will you ever book your trip today by clicking the

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link in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: Especially you Cepaine with the FBI. Today's Friday June. First

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time's approximately nine fifteen am by my watch. Following the

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will be a interview with Aeriel Keys at the FBI

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office and Anchorage with me, OBTFO, Jeff Bell, and AUSA

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Frank Russo.

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Speaker 3: Is real? How do you know?

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Speaker 4: All right?

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Speaker 3: Isra?

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Speaker 2: We're gonna run through kind of what's become our standard

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stuff here. You may know it better than I do.

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Let me know if I mess anything up there. I

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know we covered some of this stuff at the jail,

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but we're gonna run through it again quickly here. When

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we came over and picked you up this morning, did

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we interrupt a meeting with your attorney?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: Okay, and you're here voluntarily?

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Speaker 3: Is that correct? Yes?

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Speaker 2: You understand we can't discuss anything to do with the

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Samantha Colding case, and if you do, then we'll have

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to stop the interview and we'll take you back to jail.

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You understand that.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Run through your Miranda rights. I know we've done this

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a number of times. Before we ask any questions, you

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must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent.

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Anything you say can be used against you in court.

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Do you have the right to talk to a lawyer?

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For advice before we ask any questions. You have the

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rights to have a lawyer with you during questioning if

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you cannot afford a lawyer, when be appointed for you

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before any questioning if you wish, And if you decide

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to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you have

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the right to stop answering at any time. Do you

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understand these rights as I've explained them to you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, okay.

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Speaker 2: And with that explanation in mind, are you willing to

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waive these rights and then talk to us here today?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: I know you've got at least one, possibly two stand

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by attorneys appointed in this matter, that being Rich Pertner

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and Jacqueline Walsh. Do you want either of those two

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attorneys or any other attorney present today?

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Speaker 3: No? Okay.

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Speaker 2: Are you on any medications or other substances?

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Speaker 3: No? Okay?

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Speaker 2: And are you having any difficulty understanding where you're at

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or what's going on?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: Alrighty, I think that covers it unless I miss someone?

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Speaker 3: No? All right?

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Speaker 4: Okay, Israel just want a touch phase before we call

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Romant and on this is Jeff called and expressed that

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you know, obviously you're not prepared to talk about.

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Speaker 5: The New York victim you very New York.

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Speaker 4: Right, then you have some questions that you still you

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cleared up on your rant, right, Is there any questions

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that we can answer to you about that when we

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go into Vermont?

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Speaker 6: No, Uh, the main issues I'm.

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Speaker 7: Dealing with on h on other things that you know,

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the other victims that we haven't really talked about, is.

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Speaker 6: Some things I was having.

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Speaker 7: My investigators look into, and uh, like I'm still waiting

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to hear back on my status with the marshals. But

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that's yeah, it's all still.

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Speaker 3: Pending at this time as far as I know, So Okay, Yeah,

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I just I don't know.

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Speaker 7: I am still trying to to uh to figure out

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if there's anything that can be done about any of that.

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Speaker 3: I guess and then you know, I mean.

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Speaker 7: One way or the other, it's gonna we'll be able

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to talk about that stuff. But I just want to

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find out what my options are as far as a

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couple other.

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Speaker 5: Things first, A couple of things on that I understand.

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Speaker 4: You know, you certainly have a right and can should

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consult with whatever you want on this. If there's anything

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you if you have any questions about things that we

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can sort of get answers to. We're happy to do that,

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especially like if you're saying there's something about the marshals

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and you know, we can obviously ask them whatever, you know,

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questions you.

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Speaker 7: Have, Yeah, and I I mean, I don't I'm hesitant

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to go that route as far as like trading information

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for what what status they put me on, because I

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mean I will if I have to, if I think

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it'll work, But for now I'm waiting.

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Speaker 6: To hear back.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I don't know there's anything we can

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do about that kind of stuff, quite frankly, because the

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marshals are very uh, you know, they're very territorial about security,

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as you probably can guess.

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Speaker 5: And then it's even more it's a little more.

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Speaker 4: Complicated than that because the marshals literally just rent space

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from the state right in the facility of the Department

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of Corrections. So in some senses they have their own rules,

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but then they also have to live in the Department

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of Corrections.

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Speaker 5: Rules, and so there's a couple of entities that you know.

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Speaker 6: That's the impression I'm getting.

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Speaker 7: And I just I haven't heard back from all the

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parties involved yet, so I.

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Speaker 4: Could just tell you just from you know, I have

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it dealt with innate situation. For that, it's a headache,

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and you know, there's really not a lot we can

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do about it. If they have real security concerns, they

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basically say butt outs of our business.

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Speaker 5: So right, but you know, you never never can tell them.

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Speaker 4: So if there's anything you need with you know, from

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muscle respect to that, we can certainly try to get answers.

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The second part of that is, yeah, I mean I

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understand what you're saying is, look, you just need to

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kind of dot your eyes across your t's on the

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New York thing, correct.

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Speaker 3: Right, And you know, I think we'll make that.

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Speaker 5: I can make that clear to Verman.

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Speaker 4: I mean I told them basically when they relate to me,

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you didn't want to talk about anything else because they

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always want a status of where are you on other

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things because that's part of their letter. You know, they

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get a little bit antsy, so to speak, and they

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have their own reasons for that.

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Speaker 5: Maybe they'll express it to you on the phone.

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Speaker 4: So I don't want to speak for them, but you know,

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just just know that they obviously have some concerns in

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that regard. I can do my best to reassure them

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that it's you know, you're going to live up to

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your end of the deal, but you know, just sort

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of as a as a word of warning when we

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talk to them that may they make them up.

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Speaker 7: I mean, I don't know, I don't know what they're

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going to ask I do have. I've been doing a

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lot of thinking about this, you know, since we discussed

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having this conference call with them. I have some concerns

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as to why they would even want to talk to

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me about the Courier case, considering that we've already had

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extensive interviews.

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Speaker 6: On it, you know, with the FBI, and it's all

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been recorded.

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Speaker 7: So I'm a little bit leary about what their motivations

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are and asking me additional questions and what what they

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plan to do with that information that they get.

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Speaker 6: So I just I'm not I don't know.

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Speaker 7: I know, we're dealing with like different jurisdiction issues here,

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and I don't know, like what what the rules are

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the rules game rules are going to be as far

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as the information that they get off of this conference

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call versus the information they got from you, you know,

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like secondhand information.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, what I can tell you what let me.

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Speaker 4: Let me tell you exactly, because I've had this conversation

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with them too, because you know, I'm concerned about that

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because we don't want to mess up things.

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Speaker 6: We're working on other crimes, right.

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Speaker 4: So the first thing, you know, they said is, look,

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you know, we have to give this house back to

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the Courier family because it's I don't know, somehow in

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foreclosure and they're pain on it and they've been maintaining

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it as a crime scene, and so that they're just

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incurring an enormous amount of debt that they're gonna it's

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going under water.

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Speaker 8: Right.

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Speaker 4: So from that perspective, they want to you know, make

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sure I think primarily, like you know, they all want

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to have comfort that you're the right guy on this,

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right one.

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Speaker 7: So they can release the house and they don't have

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to worry about continuing their investigation exactly.

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Speaker 4: And hearing it from us is one thing, and you'll

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be listening to tape is another thing.

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Speaker 5: But asking you know, questions yourselves.

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Speaker 4: I think that that helps them number one too, you know,

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I mean, and their perspective is, you know, they don't

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know what's gonna happen with this, and you know, certainly

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if things go sideways and things go down the tubes,

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they want to just sort of make sure they've confirmed

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what you've said. You know, right now, they're on our

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side on this, I have no doubt about that. But

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you know, just in case they never, you know, they never,

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you know, can be careful enough. And number three, let

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me tell you this other thing I think I touched

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on at once is it's one thing you know, when

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I guess you hear about, oh, you know, this is

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what happened in your case, Like if these investigators they've

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been working it, they've been wondering, and it haunts them,

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you know, it does. I've had a case like that,

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always have the wonder, you know, what happened, And I

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think it helps them ebe psychologically to kind of ask

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the questions themselves that they've been wanting to ask since

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day one, since they've been trying to you know, be

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orize what happened here.

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Speaker 5: So sometimes it's just like, you know.

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Speaker 4: Hey, let's all play together type of thing. I think

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it helps keep them, you know, on board. When they

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get to ask these questions, they feel like they're engaged,

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they feel like they're more part of the team, which

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they are, you know, as long as we're going with

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that letter, right, I have no concerns about them. I've

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been talking to the attorney over there, Mary Morrisey. I

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talked to her right before we got in here. The

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people in that room, I think we can even clarify

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we're all going to be sort of bound by that letter.

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And you can make that clear if you want the outset,

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you figure out who's in the room. But everybody in there,

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we've been assured. You know that they're not going off

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the deep end. Otherwise we'd never be doing this.

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Speaker 5: We don't want to.

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Speaker 4: Screw up right.

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Speaker 2: Anything that works.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, No, I can understand like the house, the crime

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scene and releasing that that makes sense to me.

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Speaker 6: The rest of it, I'm a little bit leery about, like.

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Speaker 7: If there if they're going to ask me specific questions,

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they're basically going to have me recap the crime and

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the motive and you know what happened blow by blow.

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I don't I don't know if I want to get

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into all that. I because I don't know if I

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trust them with that information. But if they just want

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to if they just want confirmation that I'm the right guy,

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if they just want details on the house or the

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crime scene, like the house itself, without going into what

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happened in there and.

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Speaker 4: The vehicle with another thing, you know, describe the vehicle

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that kind of thing like colors in the house.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: It just kind of helps them, I think, and I

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know Officer Bell talk to them just to make sure

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because they give us an out lot. You know, we

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basically said, here's what we you know, we think is

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probably relevant for you, and here's what we think in

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Igra will be uncomfortable with. So it's not like they're

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just going off on their own right and doing this.

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And we told them quite frankly, hey, you know you

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can ask the questions all you want, you may not

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get all the answers.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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H g LP dot com slash tcb, Okay.

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Speaker 3: That's fine.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I just want to And we told them that

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00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:44,960
you're pretty clear.

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Speaker 9: If you don't want to answer something, you're pretty much

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00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,440
gonna say yeah, okay, it's bad.

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00:16:49,519 --> 00:16:52,919
Speaker 3: So they don't have any expectations of you know.

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00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,879
Speaker 5: All right, doesn't mean they won't try.

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00:16:54,919 --> 00:16:58,240
Speaker 3: I mean we've tried, all right.

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00:16:58,559 --> 00:17:01,039
Speaker 6: The investigator just wants some owner have been his own investigation.

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00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,519
As the investigator had heard all the interviews.

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Speaker 2: He's listened to one I think in its entirety, which

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00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,079
is one that we did several.

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Speaker 3: Weeks more, just you and I, and.

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Speaker 9: So they know the I don't think they're going to

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00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,319
ask you detailed questions because they know them, okay, and some.

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00:17:20,279 --> 00:17:20,799
Speaker 5: Of the other things.

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00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:23,279
Speaker 4: And that's why if they're asking questions that are you know,

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00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:25,319
the things you talked about before, they may not have

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00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,240
heard the other ones because you talked about a bunch

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00:17:28,279 --> 00:17:30,720
of different things, and those right there know what they

347
00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:32,559
have access to over there. I think I know they

348
00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:35,039
had access to this one because you know, that was

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sort of the time when we gotten.

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Speaker 9: So they don't all they basically had to sit there

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with an FBI agent, and they would let them listen

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to that one.

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Speaker 3: They don't have access to anything else.

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Speaker 6: Right now, right, that's okay, all right, all right, makes sense.

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00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:51,319
Speaker 5: So who is Lieutenant Murdy? Is the guy who's gonna

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be asking the questions?

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Speaker 3: We can call I think it's m U R T

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I E.

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Speaker 6: Murdy so we can identify you. I don't it's a two.

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Speaker 3: You got to do nine to one, yeah.

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Speaker 5: Six five two.

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Speaker 3: I guess you don't want to do nine one? Yeah,

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you do.

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Speaker 5: Six five two three nine? Out there you go.

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Speaker 10: You can marry more to the story's office. I'm not

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a aable to take a call right now. If you're

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a good message, I'll try to get back to as

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soon as I can. Thank you very much, and have

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a nice day.

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Speaker 5: Call.

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Speaker 3: Was gonna leave one saying okay, this was Ankridge. You

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missed our call.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Hey, Mary's Frank.

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Speaker 4: We're trying to call you on the desk line.

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Speaker 5: Okay, we'll call right now.

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Speaker 6: Okay, be that Lucky Morsey.

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Speaker 4: Hey Mary, it's Frank Russo, Jeff Bell, Steve Payne, and

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00:19:09,839 --> 00:19:12,119
the Israel Keys here.

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Speaker 8: Thank you.

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00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,079
Speaker 10: I'm here in my office in Vermont with Lieutenant George Murdy,

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who is in charge of the Courier investigation for the

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Essex Police Department.

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Speaker 4: Okay, and just to clarify one thing that mister Keys

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00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,640
was concerned about before we got in here, I just

385
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,920
wanted to confirm that, uh, basically, the uh you know,

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the letter that he saw last meeting, I mean that

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applies to Lieutenant Murdy too.

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Speaker 5: You guys are all under one umbrella, so to speak.

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00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:46,079
Speaker 10: That is correct, the letter that I sent or the

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provided to you that I.

391
00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:48,759
Speaker 8: Believe you've given to mister Keith.

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Speaker 10: But what buyd Chittman County, including all of the departments

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00:19:53,559 --> 00:19:56,720
within Chipman County. How our system works is that we

394
00:19:56,759 --> 00:20:00,119
don't have town prosecutors. We have a county prosecutor. So

395
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my office is the prosecutor.

396
00:20:02,079 --> 00:20:02,880
Speaker 8: For chitten County.

397
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 10: Is nobody else to file charges in Chindon County but

398
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,079
us and the Attorney General's office and the limited circumstances.

399
00:20:09,079 --> 00:20:11,240
But they're not part of this investigation. They don't know

400
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and been unaware of this.

401
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:18,119
Speaker 4: Okay, fair enough, there's really all your questions before we

402
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:18,759
get started.

403
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:20,799
Speaker 3: Now, I'm good.

404
00:20:20,839 --> 00:20:23,279
Speaker 4: The one thing you should know is that obviously Lieutenant

405
00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:26,200
Murdy also has been spent some majority of his time

406
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,119
at the dumb site. He could probably give you a

407
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,559
better picture of what's going on there if you want.

408
00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:33,559
At the end, you know, he sort of knows what

409
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he's dealing with out.

410
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 9: There, and maybe you guys just introduced yourself to him

411
00:20:36,519 --> 00:20:38,359
and let you know is let him know who you are.

412
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 8: Yes, my name is Mary Morrisey. I'm a prosecutor in

413
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,359
chitten And County.

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Speaker 10: I'm the Chief Deputy.

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Speaker 8: Of Major Crimes.

416
00:20:46,039 --> 00:20:49,319
Speaker 10: I've been working on this case with Lieutenant Murdy since

417
00:20:49,839 --> 00:20:52,839
the morning that the Curviers were reported missing last June.

418
00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:55,400
So I've been a signed to this case since that

419
00:20:55,599 --> 00:21:01,799
day and I've been in the office for over taketeen years.

420
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,599
Speaker 3: Mister Keys, should I call you Israel or would you

421
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,160
rather call you mister Keys Israel? Okay, and call me George.

422
00:21:12,319 --> 00:21:16,759
I'm a detective lieutenant at the Essex Police Department in

423
00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:22,160
charge of the Criminal Investigation Unit. Our police department is

424
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,480
as you might imagine a small town. We have twenty

425
00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:30,559
seven officers in our police department. I've been there twenty

426
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,640
eight years and frankly, I have never seen anything like this.

427
00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:38,880
So if I don't appear to have everything totally at

428
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:45,400
my command. Please understand that I have been the case

429
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:51,440
manager of the Courier case since June, and I have

430
00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:57,480
some questions regarding the house and the car that from

431
00:21:57,559 --> 00:22:02,200
what I understand and communicating with with Frank and uh

432
00:22:02,519 --> 00:22:06,079
and Jeff and Steve, they tell me that you're willing

433
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:12,119
to help me corroborate some details and get some information

434
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:18,480
from you that will let me know that obviously you

435
00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:21,160
are the person who has been in the house and

436
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,319
in the car, and you know things that nobody else

437
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,480
would know unless they have been in that position. Is

438
00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:32,440
that correct? Yes, that's correct. Okay, thank you. I mean,

439
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,279
do you want to start out by hearing about commentry

440
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:40,000
or are you interested in that? But yeah, that's yeah,

441
00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:45,599
we can start with that. Okay, let's see today will

442
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:52,160
conclude our fourth week up there. They, as you probably know,

443
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,160
they demolished the house that you had referred to in

444
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:05,559
late October, and obviously it wasn't until April that that

445
00:23:05,559 --> 00:23:09,359
that we found out that this had been the I

446
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:14,359
guess the the place where those people were left. So

447
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:23,000
fortunately the landfilling commentry, which is gigantic, as kept they

448
00:23:23,079 --> 00:23:28,359
keep engineered records of where all their trash goes, and

449
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,599
I mean, this is stuff I never thought of when

450
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,720
I thought of dump. But they take aerial photographs, they

451
00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:40,240
do GPS so and the dates, the probable dates that

452
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:46,039
that trash were dumped, had been recorded and placed in

453
00:23:46,279 --> 00:23:50,200
record as to a specific area where they would be. Now,

454
00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:54,079
having said that they keep good records, the area that's

455
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,640
possible is at least the size of a football field,

456
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:07,440
and it is. It is probably a good six feet deep.

457
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,359
They mix in all sorts of nasty stuff to help

458
00:24:12,839 --> 00:24:16,960
decomposition in that area. And what we have to do

459
00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:20,079
is we have to rely on heavy equipment to dig

460
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,440
all this stuff up, lay it out on a flat area,

461
00:24:24,039 --> 00:24:28,240
and we have to go through it with rakes basically,

462
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:33,359
and it is it's a very very it's like an

463
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,279
archaeological dig sort of, and it kind of is in

464
00:24:36,319 --> 00:24:40,640
a lot of ways. We had a forensic anthropologist who

465
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,359
work for the Smithsonian Institute up there advising us on

466
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:49,359
the best way to go about this. And we at

467
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,640
this point todate, after four weeks, have probably cleared from

468
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,640
like twenty to twenty five percent of that area. So,

469
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,640
I mean, could could we find those people tomorrow? Well,

470
00:25:02,759 --> 00:25:06,480
I mean the next Monday. Yeah, but it could also

471
00:25:06,599 --> 00:25:10,680
take another six weeks. So you know, it's if you

472
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,759
can get a picture. It's a it's not a great

473
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,480
job to have, but you know, obviously it's something that

474
00:25:16,559 --> 00:25:19,440
needs to get done, all right.

475
00:25:19,559 --> 00:25:20,279
Speaker 6: I appreciate that.

476
00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 3: Any any questions about that or anything else that before

477
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,559
I start asking you about the house and stuff.

478
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 7: How many people do you have working sorting through the

479
00:25:32,759 --> 00:25:35,400
trash that's dug up, and who are are they? Are

480
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,000
they with your local police department or are they specifically

481
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,960
trained for that or what. I'm just curious how many

482
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,519
people know what's being searched for.

483
00:25:44,599 --> 00:25:51,559
Speaker 3: And we we have people from from my agency. Probably

484
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,240
at any given time, I have two people that I

485
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,960
can put up there. Usually it's myself and another person,

486
00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:02,400
and have one person that I can rotate it. And

487
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:08,880
now the Vermont State Police usually puts about five people

488
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,039
into that mix, and the FBI puts in about twenty people.

489
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:18,680
So we have probably twenty five people going in a

490
00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:22,039
line through the through the trash that's been laid out.

491
00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:26,000
What they are told at the briefing is that they

492
00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:32,480
are searching for the remains of the couriers that you know,

493
00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:37,480
that's that's basically it. So they're not given case details specifically.

494
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,319
You know, occasionally some of the folks have been involved

495
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,359
from the FBI and may have been involved in other

496
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,799
aspects of the investigation, so they, you know, they might

497
00:26:49,839 --> 00:26:54,319
have more detail, but I think everything's being kept pretty quiet.

498
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,160
My understanding from talking to Jeff and Steve is one

499
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,359
of your major concerns about your name coming up in

500
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,400
the media or anything to expose you to, you know,

501
00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:15,240
to the connection to this. So I think we're certainly

502
00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:20,000
well aware of that here in in our office, but

503
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,880
I think the FBI is trying to keep a tight

504
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,319
lid on that even in their own office as well.

505
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 7: All Right, I appreciate that, and I don't have any

506
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:28,400
other questions about it.

507
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: Okay, Now, I did listen to your interview that was

508
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,839
recorded on May eighth, where you go into most of

509
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:44,279
the details about going into the house and and taking

510
00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:48,079
those people away and going up to the farmhouse. But

511
00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:53,279
you know, I guess, I guess every time you hear something,

512
00:27:53,319 --> 00:27:57,839
it sparks another four or five questions. So please bear

513
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,680
with me if I ask something you feel you've already answered.

514
00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:07,079
Now you've you mentioned in your interview that you said

515
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:12,440
you checked out the neighborhood where the house was prior

516
00:28:12,519 --> 00:28:16,920
to I guess, to gaining entry to that. Can you

517
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,680
explain a little bit more about what you meant by

518
00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:23,599
checking checking out the neighborhood and was it in daylight

519
00:28:23,799 --> 00:28:26,880
or was it just before you you actually made entry.

520
00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:34,839
Speaker 7: I was walking around the general neighborhood and getting a layout,

521
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,559
and it was it was just prior. It was probably

522
00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:42,839
between the hours of about nine pm and the time

523
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,880
that I actually went into the house.

524
00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: Okay, it so it sounds probably was just getting dark

525
00:28:51,519 --> 00:28:53,440
or was it dark at the time it was dark?

526
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,319
Do you remember the weather?

527
00:28:56,119 --> 00:28:59,039
Speaker 6: It was raining? It was raining really hard that night.

528
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: Okay? Was it raining when you checked it out, because.

529
00:29:04,079 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 7: I believe the at the time that I had chosen

530
00:29:07,279 --> 00:29:14,000
that neighborhood, the rain had stopped and it was just

531
00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:17,000
really damp out, really wet.

532
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, And you know, knowing knowing that neighborhood,

533
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,319
Uh it was. It's I don't know. I guess it

534
00:29:29,359 --> 00:29:32,319
was a little surprising to me how how little room

535
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,839
uh you know, between houses. Uh does that concern you

536
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:37,240
at all?

537
00:29:39,319 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 7: Well, it did concern me. I I was after I

538
00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:47,400
had picked out that house. I stayed in the in

539
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,720
the backyard for several hours, probably at least a couple hours,

540
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:59,799
waiting till the rest of the neighborhood had gone to sleep.

541
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,839
Speaker 3: Okay, Now had you had you seen those two people

542
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:11,720
at any time when you were checking out the neighborhood

543
00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:14,839
or anything any time before you entered the house?

544
00:30:15,799 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 6: No?

545
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 3: Okay, So so it's like when you were Okay, no

546
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,720
means no, So I guess so, I guess you didn't

547
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,400
see them at the like the pharmacy, or that the

548
00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:28,759
at home well actually wasn't a home depot a low

549
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,720
but you know these are. They're some of their favorite

550
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,359
places to go to. So I didn't know if you'd

551
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,519
seen them then and connected them to the house.

552
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 7: No, I it was the The house was picked on

553
00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:46,279
the basis of the design of the house, not on

554
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,160
my assumption who might be inside.

555
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: Really, Okay.

556
00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:56,319
Speaker 1: What I love most about summer is how easy everything feels.

557
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The days are more relaxed. I find myself reaching for

558
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559
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560
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on well made essentials that naturally become those everyday staples

561
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562
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563
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564
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565
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566
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567
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568
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569
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570
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571
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584
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Speaker 3: And I know you'd been in Vermont at least one

585
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,480
other time. Uh, have you ever started formulating your plan

586
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,119
the fact that back as early as in or is

587
00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:49,960
this something that I wondered if you were familiar with

588
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,920
this neighborhood from the from your prior visit to Vermont.

589
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 7: I had never been in that specific neighborhood before I was.

590
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:05,920
I'm familiar with the entire area in general, but not

591
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,519
not that neighborhood specifically.

592
00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:15,359
Speaker 3: Now you have family or friends are in the ansect area. No, okay,

593
00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:20,359
let's see when you were in the backyard you mentioned

594
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,960
a swimming pool. Are there other items in the backyard

595
00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:27,799
that you could tell me that that you remember that

596
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,880
would corroborate that you knew his backyard.

597
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,359
Speaker 7: There was a storage shed in the back left hand

598
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,319
corner of the yard.

599
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 5: There was a.

600
00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 7: It was a pretty secluded backyard. I believe it had

601
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,880
either an allier road access on the back and.

602
00:33:50,359 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 3: It was.

603
00:33:53,680 --> 00:34:01,519
Speaker 7: Fairly well secluded from the neighbors on either side.

604
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: There were I.

605
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 7: Believe it was plastic patio furniture that was on the

606
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,519
back deck. It was an above ground swimming pool, so

607
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,880
they had a pretty elaborate deck set up and sliding

608
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,480
glass door on the back and I used one of

609
00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:24,960
the plastic patio chairs to get into the garage window.

610
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so you moved it around to the side

611
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:31,599
of the house where the garage window is.

612
00:34:32,119 --> 00:34:32,559
Speaker 6: Yeah.

613
00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 7: There was a fan, a fan running for ventilation in

614
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,599
that window, and that's how I got into the garage.

615
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 3: Okay, Now do you remember what you did with that fan?

616
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,880
Did you put it inside the garage or did you

617
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,360
put it outside? Would you do with it? I believe

618
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,000
I set it.

619
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:51,559
Speaker 7: I think I had turned it off and I set

620
00:34:51,599 --> 00:34:56,480
it inside, and then I believe when I left the house,

621
00:34:56,519 --> 00:34:59,960
I put it back in the window and pretty much

622
00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:02,960
everything set up the way it was when I found it.

623
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:12,079
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, now in the garage, Well, let me see

624
00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:14,639
if I got this straight. You were in the backyard

625
00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:18,119
for a couple of hours or or saw a fairly

626
00:35:18,199 --> 00:35:21,880
lengthy period of time, just kind of waiting to see

627
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,920
what happens. At some point in your interview, you mentioned

628
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,440
neighbors coming or a neighbor coming out. Was that when

629
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:32,800
you were in the garage or when you were in

630
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:33,440
the backyard.

631
00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:39,199
Speaker 7: I was in the backyard, I believe when I when

632
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,559
I started noticing that that neighbor was awaken, that they

633
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:44,000
were coming out.

634
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 3: Okay, now is it? Is it the same side of

635
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,599
the street, on the house, on the same side as

636
00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:56,280
the garage, right? Yeah, okay, all right, gotcha, because I

637
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,559
know they're Did you see anybody else in the neighborhood?

638
00:36:01,199 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 7: There's just like the only person at the time that

639
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,320
that was the only person I saw. They they had

640
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:14,679
motion activated security lights, and they had a large dog

641
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,639
that was being let out of the house from time

642
00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:22,199
to time, and I believe it was a Golden Retriever

643
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,239
or something. And there was a younger, middle aged guy

644
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,960
who was coming out to smoke every now and then.

645
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,760
And I had already decided that I was going through

646
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,559
the garage window, but I was concerned about him coming

647
00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:38,360
out when I was actually going in that that way,

648
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,599
and so I remember I was I timed it so

649
00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:46,840
that I either went in through the garage, either right

650
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,400
after he had gone back into the house after a

651
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:54,719
smoke break, or I had timed it to where it

652
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,280
seemed like he had gone to bed wasn't up anymore.

653
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:57,599
Speaker 3: I don't.

654
00:36:57,639 --> 00:36:59,559
Speaker 7: I don't remember exactly when I first went.

655
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:00,599
Speaker 6: Into the garage, but.

656
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,559
Speaker 7: I remember once I was in the garage and unlocked

657
00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:07,840
the back door, I held off for quite a while

658
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,239
before actually breaking into the house.

659
00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:10,639
Speaker 3: Uh.

660
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 7: I I unlocked the back door to the to the garage,

661
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:24,000
the man door that went into the backyard, and after.

662
00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 3: That I was able to come and.

663
00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:26,679
Speaker 7: Go from the garage without having to go through the window.

664
00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 3: Okay, uh, Now when you're in the garage, their cars

665
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,480
they're right. Yeah. And did you notice anything unusual in

666
00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:38,519
the garage itself?

667
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:45,599
Speaker 7: No, I mean it was dark in the garage. It

668
00:37:45,679 --> 00:37:51,800
seemed like a pretty typical garage. There was, Yeah, I didn't.

669
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,119
I had a light with me, but I wasn't. I

670
00:37:54,159 --> 00:37:57,960
wasn't using it that much because because there are still

671
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,239
people up around and I.

672
00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:05,199
Speaker 3: Don't know stuff. Could you see out the garage door, I.

673
00:38:05,159 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 6: Don't remember if it had windows in it or not.

674
00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:15,679
Speaker 3: And we we So you mentioned a crowbar that you

675
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:21,719
took off a foot to smash the window leading into

676
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:22,920
the house. Is that correct?

677
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,079
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was about a twenty four inch crowbar.

678
00:38:27,119 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 7: I think it was hanging on the back wall of

679
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,599
the garage, to the left of the man door.

680
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,639
Speaker 3: David, did you were there any other crowbars there that

681
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:37,360
you recalled?

682
00:38:38,039 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 7: It seems like there were a few other tools around.

683
00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:43,519
There may have been another crowbar, hammer or something.

684
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 3: I don't know, all right, did you try to fry

685
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,760
the door at all to gain entry or did you

686
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,159
just use the window?

687
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,079
Speaker 7: Well, it had a storm It had a storm door

688
00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:02,480
that was locked on on the exterior of the of

689
00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:07,360
the standard door, and I was able to to pry

690
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,320
the lock of the storm door with my knife, and

691
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,199
I was I was thinking that I was actually surprised

692
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,440
that the other door was locked as well, but it

693
00:39:18,519 --> 00:39:20,480
was a dead bolt lock, so I knew there wasn't

694
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:22,920
There wasn't any way I was going to be able

695
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:29,039
to to jimmy that lock without without breaking the windows.

696
00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:34,039
Speaker 3: So okay, So so that's something a little new to

697
00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:37,559
me that that you I talked that when you got

698
00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:40,559
into the window in through the window into the garage,

699
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,400
that you were able to just unlock the door going

700
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,639
out into the backyard. Uh yeah, okay, So I don't

701
00:39:51,679 --> 00:39:55,119
understand which door you you pried with your knife. There

702
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,320
was a storm door.

703
00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 6: Between the kitchen and the garage.

704
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 3: Okay, that's the one year you were able to pry

705
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:04,400
with the knight.

706
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, they had it locked.

707
00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 7: It was a a pretty low quality lock on those

708
00:40:09,039 --> 00:40:11,719
storm doors, gotcha.

709
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,559
Speaker 3: Okay, now I understand what you're telling me is you're

710
00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:18,559
able to pry the door on the doorno lock. And

711
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,000
then it was also a dead full lock attached to that, right.

712
00:40:22,199 --> 00:40:26,119
Speaker 7: And once I discovered that there was a there was

713
00:40:26,159 --> 00:40:29,280
a dead bolt lock on the on the kitchen door,

714
00:40:29,679 --> 00:40:31,519
and I knew I would have to break the window.

715
00:40:31,559 --> 00:40:33,519
I knew it was going to be loud, so I

716
00:40:33,559 --> 00:40:37,800
decided to wait another hour or two and to make

717
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,760
sure that all the neighbors were asleeper inside.

718
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 6: And and that's why I ended.

719
00:40:42,599 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 7: Up unlocking the back door of the garage and just

720
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,599
hanging out in the backyard for a while till I

721
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:49,639
got a little bit later.

722
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:56,199
Speaker 3: Okay, And all right, so so you get into the house,

723
00:40:57,159 --> 00:41:00,280
you put the light on it like as you going

724
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,159
into the house, or do you can you like I'm wondering,

725
00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:07,320
can you see things at that time or or do

726
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,639
you just make a rush rout down the hallway.

727
00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 6: I had my headlamp on.

728
00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 3: You mentioned that you were wearing a mask.

729
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,159
Speaker 6: I probably was, though, just over my mouth.

730
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I'm just a little curious as to, I

731
00:41:26,079 --> 00:41:30,519
guess knowing what your intentions were, uh, why you felt

732
00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:31,360
you needed a mask.

733
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 7: I I was mostly had the mask on for the

734
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,159
time that I was in the backyard in case. I

735
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:43,960
don't know, if someone spotted me or someone had cameras.

736
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 3: I don't know. I just I just once I decided

737
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:53,320
to see Now, can you tell me what you what

738
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,000
you recalled about the house? Uh, just kind of describe

739
00:41:57,079 --> 00:42:02,239
you inside. Yeah, there was.

740
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 7: Immediately through the door from the garage into the kitchen.

741
00:42:09,119 --> 00:42:12,639
I believe there was a refrigerator right there, and then

742
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,480
you had to take a little bit of a left

743
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,079
to go through the kitchen.

744
00:42:19,639 --> 00:42:20,119
Speaker 3: And then.

745
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,039
Speaker 7: I knew it would I knew it would be pretty

746
00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:28,000
much a straight shot down the hallway to the bedroom.

747
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,400
I already knew what bedroom they were in, so so

748
00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:37,599
I was only checking briefly, like looking left and right

749
00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:39,639
into the rooms as I passed them on the way

750
00:42:39,639 --> 00:42:42,719
to the bedroom to make sure there wasn't anybody else

751
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:49,079
in those rooms. And I believe it was a three

752
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:49,880
bedroom house.

753
00:42:50,639 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 3: But when you when you bedroom, were they in.

754
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 7: Well as you were if you're standing on the street

755
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,599
facing their house, they were in the bedroom in the

756
00:43:01,639 --> 00:43:02,960
front right hand corner.

757
00:43:03,639 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 3: Okay. You you mentioned that it's a three bedroom house,

758
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:15,400
and you're you're correct. So were they both in the

759
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:22,559
same bedroom? Yes? Okay, because it did after you you'd tied

760
00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:28,159
him up or incapacitated whatever. Uh you mentioned that you

761
00:43:28,199 --> 00:43:32,079
go through the house. Is it is that, Craig? Yes? Okay.

762
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:33,920
Did you go into all the other rooms?

763
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:35,199
Speaker 6: Yes?

764
00:43:35,519 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 3: And did you go downstairs?

765
00:43:38,039 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 6: No?

766
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,679
Speaker 3: Okay? So you never even looked into the basement.

767
00:43:44,599 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 6: I honestly, I was not even aware there was a basement.

768
00:43:47,559 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 3: Okay. Do you recall going into the bathroom.

769
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,519
Speaker 7: I'm sure I went in the bathroom. I don't really

770
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,920
remember anything.

771
00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:04,599
Speaker 3: And now that I'm kind of recalling you to the bathroom,

772
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:09,840
there anything stick out about it that it seemed a

773
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:10,719
little unusual?

774
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:12,679
Speaker 6: No?

775
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:17,599
Speaker 3: No, you remember color by any chance? No? I don't.

776
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 7: I don't remember the color of the bathroom. I believe

777
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,840
the only reason I looked into the bathroom.

778
00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 3: Was I may have.

779
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 7: I may have checked the medicine cabinet or something, but

780
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,159
I don't I don't remember.

781
00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 3: In your interview you mentioned that they might have had

782
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,320
some prescriptions like byke it In or a Percoset or

783
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,719
something like that. I mean, does that ring a bell

784
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:45,159
with you? Yeah? And you you take that, you take

785
00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:46,280
those medications.

786
00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 7: I don't take them personally. No, I took some from

787
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:51,639
the house. Yes, would you.

788
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,119
Speaker 3: Would you sell them or what? What? I guess it

789
00:44:55,159 --> 00:45:00,400
doesn't really matter, But would you mind telling me? U? Really?

790
00:45:00,679 --> 00:45:01,400
I guess.

791
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 6: I guess my thought was that I might sell them.

792
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 5: I don't know.

793
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 7: I don't really do that kind of stuff. I just

794
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,679
grabbed them because I because they were there, And I

795
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:12,880
mean I was, I was grabbing a lot of different stuff.

796
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:20,559
Speaker 3: So okay, and when you're I never mind that. Okay.

797
00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:26,360
So let's so they're in the they're in the fire bedroom,

798
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,559
and so now there you mentioned that they were on

799
00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:36,800
the bed in your interview and they're I guess trusted

800
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:45,320
up with with these cable ties. Yes, okay, And so

801
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,239
at this point you feel comfortable to go through the

802
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,840
rest of the house, and you mentioned grabbing some suitcases.

803
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:57,320
Do you recall where you got those suitcases from?

804
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 7: I believe they were in the bedroom directly joining the

805
00:46:01,039 --> 00:46:04,719
bedroom that they were sleeping in. I believe they were

806
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,360
in a closet and there was a chest of drawers

807
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,960
and a lot of other miscellaneous household items in that room.

808
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:21,079
Speaker 3: You remember there was one one item there that was

809
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:26,960
fairly large, and I wondered if you remembered what that

810
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:28,519
was next to the bed.

811
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,559
Speaker 6: Next to the bed in the room they were sleeping

812
00:46:33,559 --> 00:46:38,320
in the room. No, I don't. I remember it was

813
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:39,320
a crowded bedroom.

814
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:45,119
Speaker 3: And okay, but tell me this. You mentioned finding military

815
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,000
documents from Bill Currier. Is that is that the room

816
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,519
you found him in? Yes, okay, and where were they?

817
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 7: They weren't documents, but I think I did see some

818
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,559
uniform patches or maybe some insignia and metals that were

819
00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:03,119
in chest of drawers there that I went through.

820
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, all right, and that's the same you're

821
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,559
telling me that's the same room where the suitcases were, right, yeah,

822
00:47:10,599 --> 00:47:16,719
I believe. So, Okay, Now, Lorraine's lingerie, that is where's that?

823
00:47:19,159 --> 00:47:22,679
Speaker 7: I believe I got that from a couple of different

824
00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:24,280
spots in the house. I know I got some of

825
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,079
it from that same chest of drawers in that adjoining.

826
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,119
Speaker 3: Bedroom, okay, anywhere else.

827
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 7: Possibly from the room they were sleeping in as well.

828
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:39,039
Speaker 3: Okay, and you put those in the suitcase.

829
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, I put everything in the suitcases.

830
00:47:41,679 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 3: All right. Let's see bear with me for a minute.

831
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,480
There's a room, the room on the other side of

832
00:47:54,480 --> 00:48:00,480
the hall. Yeah, tell me what you remember about that room.

833
00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:03,039
Speaker 7: There was a bird cage in it with a blanket

834
00:48:03,039 --> 00:48:07,320
over it. Was there a bed in there? I don't

835
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,000
remember if there was a bed or a large desk. Again,

836
00:48:10,079 --> 00:48:11,719
it was a crowded room. It seems like there were

837
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,360
quite a few quite a bit of stuff in it.

838
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,719
And I just did I I remember, I got a

839
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,599
quick idea of what might be in that room, and

840
00:48:21,639 --> 00:48:23,559
I didn't I didn't really go through it that much.

841
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:25,440
I didn't really figure there would be anything in there.

842
00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:31,159
Speaker 3: So, okay, so tell me this you're looking it tells me.

843
00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:35,920
I mean, you've already got this worked out in your head,

844
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,000
and you know what you're looking for when you go

845
00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:42,199
into the house. So I mean, by by the time

846
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,320
you go through these other places, have you already found

847
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,119
what you wanted to find or are you exploring for

848
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,920
things that might interest you or do you already know

849
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,760
what you're what you're looking for?

850
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:05,039
Speaker 7: Well, everything else that I took was pretty inconsequential.

851
00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 6: Anything else I was looking for was I already.

852
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,639
Speaker 7: I already had an idea of the things I might

853
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,480
find in the house, which is why I didn't really

854
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,320
go through it that thoroughly. If I had had the

855
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,800
impression that there were more things of value in the house,

856
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:25,920
I would have gone through it more thoroughly. But everything

857
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,920
I found pointed me to the direction that I wasn't

858
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,880
going to find anything else of interest to me.

859
00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 6: So the main reason I was there for was, you know,

860
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:36,760
was for them.

861
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 3: So that's not yeah, okay, Now I know you're a carpenter.

862
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,960
Do do you build houses? Yes? Okay, So I mean

863
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,679
you know, basically style a house and what you can

864
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:54,360
expect to find from a construction aspect and all that stuff.

865
00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:59,360
So it sounds to me like nothing in the house

866
00:50:00,119 --> 00:50:02,519
really surprised you.

867
00:50:02,559 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 7: No, I don't remember seeing anything unusual. It seemed like

868
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,320
a pretty typical ranch style house to me.

869
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,159
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, And and in your interview you mentioned

870
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:17,079
that you got jewelry that that wasn't didn't look like

871
00:50:17,159 --> 00:50:21,920
valuable jewelry. Uh? You you actually you got a couple

872
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:27,320
of shell phones? Is that right? Yes? And what did

873
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,559
you did you take? Like the guy's wallet or the

874
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,840
woman's handbook or any pocketbook or anything like that.

875
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, there was a large It seemed like all of

876
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:46,400
their financial cards and I identifications and everything. It seems

877
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,199
like all that was in one wallet.

878
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 3: Okay, and that's the one that you took away with you.

879
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,280
Did you ask them about how much money they had

880
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,079
in the wallet and the pin numbers and all that?

881
00:51:01,039 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 5: Yes?

882
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,679
Speaker 3: I did, okay? And what did they tell you?

883
00:51:05,559 --> 00:51:08,559
Speaker 7: I got my main objective.

884
00:51:08,639 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 6: My main concern wasn't with how much money they had

885
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:14,079
in their accounts.

886
00:51:14,079 --> 00:51:15,079
Speaker 3: It was to make sure that.

887
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 7: They had given me the correct ten number for their card.

888
00:51:19,079 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 3: Okay. Did you ever try to access that? No? I

889
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,679
don't think so. To keep it, well, is that one

890
00:51:24,679 --> 00:51:27,119
of the things you got rid of? But was the

891
00:51:27,159 --> 00:51:28,679
New Hampshire or did you get rid of that in

892
00:51:28,679 --> 00:51:31,079
the dumpster at the place you were staying.

893
00:51:32,039 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 7: No, the card, the card and the phones I didn't

894
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,440
get rid of till New Hampshire.

895
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:43,079
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, let's talk about their car. If if you

896
00:51:43,079 --> 00:51:46,719
don't mind, you need a break or anything. No, I'm fine,

897
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:55,480
Am I you got? Are you okay with it so far? Yeah?

898
00:51:55,519 --> 00:51:56,639
Speaker 6: This is fine? O.

899
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:02,599
Speaker 3: Good. So you know, obviously they weren't driving a Bentley.

900
00:52:03,199 --> 00:52:07,800
Uh you would you mentioned that it's a it's a

901
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,679
Saturn and two door four door?

902
00:52:13,679 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 6: I believe it was a four door Sedan.

903
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 3: Okay, And I think you mentioned accessing the trunk. So

904
00:52:23,119 --> 00:52:26,760
did you do any preparation to the car before you

905
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:32,719
put them in or had you already checked out the car? Yeah?

906
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:33,119
Speaker 6: I had.

907
00:52:33,679 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, I checked out the car pretty thoroughly before I

908
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:37,599
even decided to break into the house.

909
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,679
Speaker 3: Okay, Now, did you adjust seats or anything like that?

910
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,920
I'm assuming that you knew where you wanted to put

911
00:52:46,519 --> 00:52:47,960
the woman where you wanted to put the guy.

912
00:52:48,679 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 6: Yes, did you?

913
00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:53,639
Speaker 3: Did you? Did you adjust the seats to to make

914
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:55,519
that happen? Or yeah?

915
00:52:55,559 --> 00:52:57,639
Speaker 6: I did have to adjust the seats I think.

916
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:06,559
Speaker 3: Okay. And so it's these people are tied up, but

917
00:53:06,639 --> 00:53:12,360
I'm assuming hands and feet. Do you cut their feet

918
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,800
loose or something to make it so they can walk

919
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:16,480
out to the car.

920
00:53:19,559 --> 00:53:21,519
Speaker 7: Their feet weren't tied when I walked them out to

921
00:53:21,519 --> 00:53:22,039
the car.

922
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:26,679
Speaker 3: Now, Okay? Did they have anything on their feet?

923
00:53:28,519 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 7: Not until I had them in the car.

924
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:37,559
Speaker 3: Okay, No, I don't mean tying. My thought is you

925
00:53:37,679 --> 00:53:40,119
broke the window to get into that house, and now

926
00:53:40,119 --> 00:53:42,320
you're going to take these folks out to the car.

927
00:53:43,599 --> 00:53:48,320
Did they just walk barefoot across this broken glass? No?

928
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 6: I think I let them put on some slippers.

929
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 3: Okay, all right? And so I mean, am I corrected

930
00:53:56,599 --> 00:53:58,719
that their feet were tied up and that you must

931
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,559
have had to untie them to enable them to walk

932
00:54:01,599 --> 00:54:02,000
to the car.

933
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 6: No, their feet. I don't think their feet were ever

934
00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:07,039
tied when they were on the bed.

935
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, just just their arms.

936
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:11,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, there was.

937
00:54:11,639 --> 00:54:13,199
Speaker 3: I went through the house really fast.

938
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:19,679
Speaker 7: I I would go from room to room and I

939
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,840
got once I had them tied up, I went through

940
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,400
the house pretty quickly to make sure I hadn't missed anybody.

941
00:54:26,559 --> 00:54:34,280
Speaker 3: And now you you mentioned taking the lingerie away any

942
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,360
other items like makeup or stuff like that. Did you

943
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:38,960
did you take any of that stuff?

944
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 6: There were?

945
00:54:41,639 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 7: I mean there there was quite a bit of thing,

946
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,199
quite a few things I threw into the suitcases.

947
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,119
Speaker 3: I I you know, I guess I don't know any

948
00:54:53,199 --> 00:54:57,000
other way to ask questions, but to be to be blunt,

949
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:04,440
I'm assuming that that those particular items play into what

950
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:11,119
what your intentions are towards towards these folks sexually. Uh,

951
00:55:11,519 --> 00:55:13,800
when when you get to where you want to go?

952
00:55:14,119 --> 00:55:16,639
Am I? Am I on track with that? Or are

953
00:55:16,639 --> 00:55:18,880
these just souvenirs? No?

954
00:55:19,119 --> 00:55:21,159
Speaker 6: That's that's pretty much the gist of it.

955
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, all right? Uh do you mind if I

956
00:55:26,159 --> 00:55:31,960
just I'm kind of curious. Do you dress Lorraine and

957
00:55:32,199 --> 00:55:35,360
in her lingerie or do you have some other purpose

958
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:40,119
for it? Uh? I don't know if I want to

959
00:55:40,159 --> 00:55:44,440
go into that. All right, fair enough? Hey, any anything

960
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:46,840
you want to tell me about is is great. So

961
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:56,880
we'll move on. Thinking about the car. You you get

962
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,079
into the car, you put them in the car. You

963
00:55:59,119 --> 00:56:02,039
get into the car, and in your interview you say

964
00:56:02,119 --> 00:56:06,039
you drive to the place you're staying at where you

965
00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:09,880
get some stuff out of your car, and then you

966
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:14,000
get back into their car. Then you say that you

967
00:56:14,079 --> 00:56:17,599
drive up to that abandoned house, you take them out

968
00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:22,239
of the car, and then whenever you want, it's morning,

969
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,840
when you're finished, you get back in their car. You

970
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:31,840
drive back down to the low parking lot. Am I correct?

971
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,880
So far, yes, okay. And then you go to the

972
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:40,360
hotel in the car that you've rented, and then you

973
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:44,000
come back and you get in that car again and

974
00:56:44,119 --> 00:56:47,119
drive up group fifteen and you're talking about the looking

975
00:56:47,119 --> 00:56:50,079
at banks and stuff like that, and then you turn

976
00:56:50,159 --> 00:56:53,639
around and you drive back down and you go back

977
00:56:53,639 --> 00:56:57,920
to your car after leaving that car in the apartment complex.

978
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:02,400
So I have all that right, Yes, okay. So in

979
00:57:02,559 --> 00:57:06,199
most four times that you were getting out of that car,

980
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,239
is there any chance that you ever touched anything in

981
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:18,199
the car with an ungloved hand, not that I recall it.

982
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,519
Is it possible? I mean, because I mean you're in

983
00:57:21,559 --> 00:57:23,880
and out of a car a lot, and I just

984
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:29,039
wonder if it's possible that we might be able to

985
00:57:29,079 --> 00:57:33,119
lift a fingerprint or access some DNA or something like

986
00:57:33,199 --> 00:57:35,960
that from the car there.

987
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,679
Speaker 6: If I left to print on that car there, that

988
00:57:38,719 --> 00:57:39,079
would be.

989
00:57:39,079 --> 00:57:43,639
Speaker 7: A pretty serious oversight on my part. I had gloves

990
00:57:43,679 --> 00:57:47,239
on the entire time. I was concerned about DNA.

991
00:57:48,719 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 6: The car.

992
00:57:50,559 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 7: There is a good possibility if there's fairly long dark

993
00:57:55,079 --> 00:57:55,559
hair that you.

994
00:57:55,639 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 6: Found on the seat and there's a possible DNA match

995
00:57:58,920 --> 00:57:59,119
to me.

996
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 7: But other than that, I seriously doubt you're gonna find

997
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,039
DNA or fingerprints anywhere.

998
00:58:04,519 --> 00:58:07,119
Speaker 3: What kinde of gloves do you wear when you're.

999
00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:13,559
Speaker 6: When you're doing this, I usually wear leather baseball gloves.

1000
00:58:14,599 --> 00:58:18,119
Speaker 3: Okay, get rubber gloves too.

1001
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 7: No, I usually don't wear what rubber gloves?

1002
00:58:22,159 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 3: Do you recall? I mean you might have been perspiring

1003
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,400
or something like that. Is it is that possible? Oh?

1004
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, that was a concern I had, especially at their house,

1005
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,920
because my gloves were wet, and you know, I was sweating,

1006
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:43,320
and it's possible some of my perspiration got through the

1007
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:44,440
gloves and got.

1008
00:58:44,239 --> 00:58:46,719
Speaker 3: On I who knows how many items.

1009
00:58:46,239 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 6: But I wasn't. I wasn't overly concerned about that.

1010
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 3: All right, Either did you or drink or anything did

1011
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,320
you use there? Did you go into the refrigerator while

1012
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:00,920
you're at the house.

1013
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,079
Speaker 6: I may have looked in the refrigerator.

1014
00:59:04,079 --> 00:59:05,079
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't know.

1015
00:59:05,119 --> 00:59:05,519
Speaker 6: I didn't.

1016
00:59:06,719 --> 00:59:09,199
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I know they were pretty big beer drinkers,

1017
00:59:09,199 --> 00:59:11,760
so I didn't know if you found any bear anything

1018
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:17,519
like Dad and the refrigerator and just curious. Okay, So

1019
00:59:17,599 --> 00:59:22,599
you mentioned that you've adjusted seats to put up in

1020
00:59:22,679 --> 00:59:25,440
the car. Did you find that you had to adjust

1021
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:31,400
the driver's seat to get in it. Yeah. Yeah, and

1022
00:59:34,719 --> 00:59:40,679
how tall you? About? Six two? Okay? Did you get

1023
00:59:40,679 --> 00:59:43,239
a sense for who drove the car last? By the

1024
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,320
by the seat? Yeah, and who'd you think it was?

1025
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:53,719
Speaker 7: Well, it's see, I'm guessing it was her, missus Curry

1026
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:57,639
that did most of the driving for a number of reasons.

1027
00:59:58,239 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 3: Yeah what what reasons are that? Uh? Well, from what

1028
01:00:05,079 --> 01:00:07,159
I think, that's what they told me. But yeah, he.

1029
01:00:07,239 --> 01:00:11,519
Speaker 7: Wasn't He wasn't in any shape to drive. It seemed

1030
01:00:11,559 --> 01:00:13,039
like so you.

1031
01:00:13,559 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 3: You noticed anything of peculiar about either of them as

1032
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:20,880
they walked or moved.

1033
01:00:20,599 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 7: Around, aside from the now I mean, aside from the

1034
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,480
fact that they weren't in the best of shape.

1035
01:00:31,519 --> 01:00:35,599
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know either along with a lamp

1036
01:00:35,719 --> 01:00:40,639
for anything like that. I know, I know you. I

1037
01:00:40,679 --> 01:00:44,079
know you mentioned that Bill is a pretty heavy guy.

1038
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,599
Anything else about him that that led you to the

1039
01:00:49,639 --> 01:00:53,320
conclusion that he wasn't in great shape? Well, I knew.

1040
01:00:53,719 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 7: I knew he had diabetes, and they told me that

1041
01:00:56,599 --> 01:00:59,119
after I shortly after we left their house.

1042
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:06,119
Speaker 3: Okay, Uh, give me a second, I'm fumbling through my

1043
01:01:06,199 --> 01:01:17,800
notes to find the important questions to ask you now

1044
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:25,639
tell me about this abandoned farmhouse. And I know in

1045
01:01:25,719 --> 01:01:30,320
the interview you described of quite plainly how you how

1046
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,400
you get the guy into the basement through the kind

1047
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:39,280
of the storm door that that leads down into the basement.

1048
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:44,760
Is that Craig? Yes? Okay? Deep. And once he's the

1049
01:01:45,119 --> 01:01:50,559
tied up in the basement, you after your little chase

1050
01:01:50,679 --> 01:01:53,519
with the with the woman there? Uh, do you bring

1051
01:01:53,519 --> 01:01:56,320
her in the same door or a different door? No?

1052
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,199
Speaker 6: I brought her in through the front door, okay.

1053
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:05,719
Speaker 3: And can you describe the front of that particular house.

1054
01:02:08,039 --> 01:02:08,760
There was a.

1055
01:02:10,199 --> 01:02:16,719
Speaker 7: It was either a screen din or a Glasston porch, about.

1056
01:02:15,079 --> 01:02:18,679
Speaker 6: Probably six by twelve or six by twenty. On the

1057
01:02:18,719 --> 01:02:19,679
front of the house.

1058
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,519
Speaker 7: There was a I believe a screen door you had

1059
01:02:22,519 --> 01:02:24,280
to go through to get into the porch area. And

1060
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:29,760
then there was a standard entry door that led into

1061
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:32,880
the living room of the of the old portion of

1062
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:33,679
the farmhouse.

1063
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, Now when you were scoping that place out earlier,

1064
01:02:38,199 --> 01:02:41,239
did you go inside it and go through it? I did? Okay,

1065
01:02:41,239 --> 01:02:44,599
so you knew what you knew exactly where where things

1066
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,840
were and where you wanted to place them and all

1067
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:53,760
that stuff. I one thing I didn't get Now with her,

1068
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:59,159
you bring her in the front door. There's an upstairs there, right, Yes,

1069
01:02:59,519 --> 01:03:04,280
you go stairs? Are you on that like ground floor? No?

1070
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 6: I took her upstairs, okay?

1071
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 3: And then and what's what's up there? Furnishing wise or anything?

1072
01:03:13,679 --> 01:03:18,079
Speaker 7: There was Most of the interior doors were off the hinges.

1073
01:03:18,239 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 3: There was.

1074
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,679
Speaker 7: I think there were some old heating appliances, either boilers

1075
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,920
or something in the rooms, and.

1076
01:03:31,159 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 6: There were several old mattresses upstairs.

1077
01:03:34,639 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 7: But for the most part that was it just larger

1078
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:39,840
pieces of furniture was the main thing that was in

1079
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,840
the house. Most of the household items had been removed.

1080
01:03:43,559 --> 01:03:47,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and not in the basement, but on the ground

1081
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:52,519
floor where the couch or anything.

1082
01:03:53,039 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 7: There was a couch in the living room, there was

1083
01:03:56,039 --> 01:04:00,119
maybe a recliner, and there was an old freestand be

1084
01:04:00,239 --> 01:04:00,960
wooden TV.

1085
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 3: Okay, eighteen sixties. So you're a they ever concern you that,

1086
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,000
I mean, there's two floors that that separate you between

1087
01:04:17,599 --> 01:04:22,679
between him and her. It might, you know, it would

1088
01:04:22,719 --> 01:04:26,679
seem like a lot of stuff could be going on

1089
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:30,360
when you're upstairs that that you don't you don't know

1090
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,639
about it, and the other way around. When you're downstairs,

1091
01:04:35,039 --> 01:04:37,880
are you Are you that confident in how secure you

1092
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:47,880
have these people? Yeah? It was, well that's things didn't

1093
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,400
go as exactly as planned. So yeah, I kind of

1094
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:56,559
gathered that of I wish at some point you'd tell

1095
01:04:56,639 --> 01:05:01,519
me what exactly is planned meant? But you know that's

1096
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:07,800
any any interested in telling me that? No.

1097
01:05:08,039 --> 01:05:10,079
Speaker 7: All I can say is that, you know, I had

1098
01:05:10,159 --> 01:05:14,320
specific things that I wanted to happen in mind, and.

1099
01:05:16,119 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 3: Because of.

1100
01:05:18,199 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 7: Actions taken by them, there were you know, it just

1101
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:31,840
it's just frustrated me to the point where I.

1102
01:05:29,119 --> 01:05:30,679
Speaker 5: You know, I still.

1103
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:34,159
Speaker 7: I still was going to go through with it, but

1104
01:05:34,239 --> 01:05:37,639
I was, I just didn't. It didn't go exactly as

1105
01:05:37,679 --> 01:05:38,960
I had planned.

1106
01:05:39,559 --> 01:05:42,639
Speaker 3: Okay, And you had plans for both of them you

1107
01:05:42,719 --> 01:05:45,719
mentioned that, Is that correct? Like I mean, he wasn't

1108
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:50,679
just like collateral just being there. You had plans for

1109
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:56,800
him as well. Yeah. Okay. Now, when when you're talking

1110
01:05:57,119 --> 01:06:03,440
about raving the woman, you mentioned going outside after a

1111
01:06:03,519 --> 01:06:09,760
while and then coming back in again. Are you like

1112
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:14,000
a smoker. Do you go out and smoke or believe

1113
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:16,920
any cigarettes? Or I know he smoked cigars because they

1114
01:06:17,079 --> 01:06:19,920
talked about you having cigar breaks? Is that what you

1115
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:22,199
do when you step outside or are you just getting

1116
01:06:22,199 --> 01:06:26,679
some her No, that's what I was doing. You were smoking? Yeah,

1117
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,039
did you take the bunch with you?

1118
01:06:29,239 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 7: Or well get there, there isn't there isn't really a

1119
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:39,039
butt I was. I I smoke them down to where

1120
01:06:39,079 --> 01:06:41,920
there's not much left, and then I step on them,

1121
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,159
so they look like just another pile of leaves on

1122
01:06:44,199 --> 01:06:44,599
the ground.

1123
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 3: All right, And so are we talking cigarettes just at

1124
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:53,400
the at the deal or it's a cigar, it's it's

1125
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:54,719
all tobacco, it's not.

1126
01:06:56,639 --> 01:06:58,239
Speaker 7: I think I smoked a couple of them in their

1127
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:01,000
backyard too, And okay.

1128
01:07:01,079 --> 01:07:05,199
Speaker 3: All right, well yeah, and you'd say they're smoked down

1129
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,840
so fine that they would be almost impossible to even

1130
01:07:10,119 --> 01:07:13,039
recognize as have been part of a cigar.

1131
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,239
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean once once you step on them, it's

1132
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:18,639
just tobacco leaves. So once you step on them, and

1133
01:07:18,679 --> 01:07:20,760
they're not in the shape of a cigar anymore, they

1134
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:24,559
look just like any other okay, bit of leaves or

1135
01:07:24,639 --> 01:07:26,079
vegetation you might step on.

1136
01:07:27,079 --> 01:07:38,119
Speaker 3: All right, feel free to interject if you think there's

1137
01:07:38,119 --> 01:07:40,119
anything else I need to know that I'm not asking.

1138
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,639
Speaker 6: It sounds like you've already heard the major interviews.

1139
01:07:44,679 --> 01:07:49,199
Speaker 3: So well, you you talked about having a glog hand.

1140
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 7: Gun with you, right, it was a Smithson lesson, but yeah.

1141
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 3: Okay it is it a semi forty count Yeah? Okay?

1142
01:08:00,079 --> 01:08:02,000
What happened to that? I mean, I know what happened

1143
01:08:02,039 --> 01:08:05,840
to the ten twenty two, and I know what happened

1144
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:09,039
to the gun you took away from the house, But

1145
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,039
I don't know about the smid the western semi.

1146
01:08:13,679 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 7: Smith The lesson was I was actually arrested with that

1147
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:18,960
in Texas.

1148
01:08:19,319 --> 01:08:25,279
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, all right? Did it? Okay? You say that

1149
01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:28,079
you hit the guy with a shovel a few times downstairs?

1150
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:30,319
Is that your shovel? Is it a shovel that was

1151
01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:35,359
in a basement or and did you take that away?

1152
01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 6: No, it was a shovel that was already in the house,

1153
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:40,119
and I didn't take it away. I think I actually

1154
01:08:40,159 --> 01:08:41,079
left it in the basement.

1155
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,399
Speaker 3: There have been any blood on it or anything? No? Okay,

1156
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:56,640
all right, let's see. Let me back up a second.

1157
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:03,119
Is there is there anything anything else about their house

1158
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:06,359
that you remember that maybe I forgot to ask you about.

1159
01:09:09,279 --> 01:09:12,399
Speaker 6: Sure, there is. I don't really know what you're looking for, though.

1160
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,319
Speaker 3: It strikes you and like, on, jeez, why And he

1161
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:25,159
asked me that no, you remember, well I already asked

1162
01:09:25,159 --> 01:09:27,760
you about the garage. You said you didn't see too much,

1163
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:34,880
so and he didn't go in the basement, right, No, okay,

1164
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:41,319
anything else that you mentioned windows upstairs? And uh yeah,

1165
01:09:41,399 --> 01:09:44,359
he actually mentioned seeing a cop car down the road.

1166
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:46,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, there was.

1167
01:09:48,079 --> 01:09:50,600
Speaker 7: I believe there was a business of some sort directly

1168
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,319
pretty much directly across the road from the farmhouse.

1169
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 6: And then further down.

1170
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 7: To the right, it seems like there was either uh yeah,

1171
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:03,840
it seems like it was another farmhouse and there was

1172
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:04,800
I remember there was.

1173
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:06,680
Speaker 3: A it looked like a.

1174
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:10,600
Speaker 7: Sheriff's car. I think it was a sheriff's car.

1175
01:10:11,239 --> 01:10:11,640
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1176
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:13,520
Speaker 7: I don't know if he lived there or what the

1177
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,479
other side of the road, right, yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah,

1178
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:19,119
I don't think it was a sheriff, but I actually

1179
01:10:19,159 --> 01:10:19,520
I think it.

1180
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 3: Was a local cop from another town who took the

1181
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:24,239
car home. But but yeah, you're right, there was a

1182
01:10:24,399 --> 01:10:31,560
there was another cop living down the road. You were

1183
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:37,680
there's something about blocking out the windows upstairs where where

1184
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,640
the woman was, is it? Yeah?

1185
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:44,000
Speaker 7: I had I took a couple of the doors and

1186
01:10:44,119 --> 01:10:46,680
maybe a mattress and put him over the windows so

1187
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:47,840
that people wouldn't.

1188
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:51,560
Speaker 3: See the light. And she she was on a mattress.

1189
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:54,239
That one of the mattresses that it was laying on

1190
01:10:54,279 --> 01:10:57,239
the floor when you checked the place out, Yeah, you

1191
01:10:57,399 --> 01:10:59,399
cover it with anything that you brought with you or

1192
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:03,119
just now that old booty mattress that was there.

1193
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:04,560
Speaker 6: That was pretty good, chick.

1194
01:11:05,119 --> 01:11:09,399
Speaker 3: Really, Yeah, it looked like anybody has been like squatting

1195
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:11,199
hanging out in there recently.

1196
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:15,840
Speaker 7: No, Well, maybe there was one portion of the house,

1197
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:18,039
the back portion of the house had an addition on it,

1198
01:11:18,079 --> 01:11:20,560
and it was pretty clearly the last area that had

1199
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:24,960
been lived in. They had a makeshift kitchen set up

1200
01:11:25,079 --> 01:11:28,159
and seems like there were even still some appliances in.

1201
01:11:28,159 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 6: That portion of the house. So yeah, maybe they were squatters.

1202
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:33,640
I don't know, it looked it looked.

1203
01:11:33,359 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 3: More like.

1204
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 7: Somebody who was just living in that section because the

1205
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:42,079
rest of the house wasn't that livable anymore.

1206
01:11:42,199 --> 01:11:49,600
Speaker 3: So, okay, all right, when you finally get out of

1207
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:53,920
decide to get out of town, and you're you're going

1208
01:11:54,039 --> 01:11:58,359
to Maine, how do you get there? I mean, I

1209
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:02,880
know how I usually go to Maine and it's by

1210
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:07,640
getting on eighty nine and heading south. Is that how

1211
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,479
you go or do you go a different way? No?

1212
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:13,399
Speaker 6: I think I went the northern route on the way there.

1213
01:12:14,079 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 3: Okay. And you mentioned the state or state forest in

1214
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:24,760
New Hampshire where you got out. Was that off a

1215
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:27,600
local road or was that off the the interstate?

1216
01:12:31,159 --> 01:12:33,039
Speaker 6: I think that was off of a highway.

1217
01:12:33,079 --> 01:12:35,279
Speaker 7: I don't remember if honestly, I don't remember if that

1218
01:12:35,319 --> 01:12:36,279
was an interstate or not.

1219
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:38,359
Speaker 6: I would have to look at them out.

1220
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:45,920
Speaker 3: All right, Okay, I'm winding down here, so just bear

1221
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,479
with me a couple more minutes. Okay.

1222
01:12:49,319 --> 01:12:53,119
Speaker 8: Yeah, Well he's looking at his questions, is it okay?

1223
01:12:53,079 --> 01:12:54,159
I asked your questions.

1224
01:12:54,319 --> 01:12:58,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, you tell me you had some conversation with the

1225
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,840
couriers that you talked about them telling you that he

1226
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:04,319
was a diabetic, that she was the one who primarily

1227
01:13:04,319 --> 01:13:06,960
did the driving. I think you said in your Maid's

1228
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,399
interview that they he talked.

1229
01:13:09,199 --> 01:13:11,680
Speaker 8: To you about his military history or background.

1230
01:13:12,359 --> 01:13:13,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right.

1231
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 8: Can you remember any.

1232
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:18,640
Speaker 10: Other specific things that you spoke with them about.

1233
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 7: Well, obviously they're I mean concern was what was going

1234
01:13:24,079 --> 01:13:25,600
on at the time, so that was.

1235
01:13:27,039 --> 01:13:29,600
Speaker 6: Primarily what we were talking about.

1236
01:13:30,159 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 8: What kind of questions Were they asking.

1237
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 6: You what's going on?

1238
01:13:35,159 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 8: And did you what was your answer to them?

1239
01:13:39,319 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 7: I told them it was kidnapped for ransom.

1240
01:13:43,119 --> 01:13:45,079
Speaker 10: Did they talk to you anything about their own financial

1241
01:13:45,119 --> 01:13:47,119
history when you.

1242
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 8: Mentioned that that might be your motive?

1243
01:13:48,359 --> 01:13:48,640
Speaker 5: Yes?

1244
01:13:49,039 --> 01:13:49,880
Speaker 8: What did they tell you?

1245
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:53,600
Speaker 7: They told me they didn't come from money.

1246
01:13:55,079 --> 01:13:57,680
Speaker 8: Did they tell you anything about like the touch of jobs.

1247
01:13:57,319 --> 01:13:59,000
Speaker 6: They did or yeah?

1248
01:13:59,119 --> 01:14:01,359
Speaker 7: I asked them all the questions and do you recall

1249
01:14:01,399 --> 01:14:04,720
what their answers were? She told me she worked in

1250
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:07,680
a hospital, and I believe she said he worked at

1251
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:09,920
a animal hospital or something.

1252
01:14:10,399 --> 01:14:15,159
Speaker 10: Okay, Did they tell you anything about their specific family history,

1253
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,239
whether or not they had children, whether or not they had.

1254
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 8: You know this kidnapped for ransom thing?

1255
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,039
Speaker 10: Did you did you explore it further with them in

1256
01:14:22,119 --> 01:14:25,199
terms of who you would be contacting for the ransom money?

1257
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:26,760
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1258
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 10: Can you tell me what you recall about that part

1259
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:29,560
of the conversation.

1260
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 7: I was asking them where their family primarily lived and

1261
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:39,119
how many members there were around.

1262
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 10: And did do you recall what they said?

1263
01:14:43,039 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 7: They told me they had recently moved to the area

1264
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:52,000
from Winooski, and that there had several family members in

1265
01:14:53,199 --> 01:14:53,720
the areas.

1266
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 3: Still huh, whether or not they had children.

1267
01:15:00,399 --> 01:15:02,560
Speaker 7: It seems like I did ask them if they had children,

1268
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,600
and I believe they had said no.

1269
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:12,279
Speaker 10: Okay, do you recall anything else specifically from the house

1270
01:15:12,319 --> 01:15:15,159
that you remember seeing, either in the kitchen, whether it

1271
01:15:15,199 --> 01:15:20,680
was photographs or wall hangings, like fixtures, anything that you

1272
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:22,560
can recall distinctively.

1273
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:25,560
Speaker 6: Nothing distinctive.

1274
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:26,119
Speaker 3: It was.

1275
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:30,560
Speaker 7: Seems like for the most part, it was pretty standard furnishings,

1276
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:34,159
and I don't remember seeing anything that really stood out

1277
01:15:34,199 --> 01:15:39,840
to me. I do remember they had fairly new televisions.

1278
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:42,239
It seemed like in every room, like large flat screen

1279
01:15:42,279 --> 01:15:43,239
TVs or something.

1280
01:15:43,359 --> 01:15:46,079
Speaker 8: So, Okay, what about the kitchen.

1281
01:15:46,119 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 10: Did you notice any about the appliances, whether or not

1282
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:50,920
it was like a newer kitchen an older kitchen.

1283
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:57,279
Speaker 6: I don't recall. I don't. Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't

1284
01:15:57,279 --> 01:15:58,159
really focused on that.

1285
01:15:58,239 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 3: I guess, Okay, all right. I had a couple more

1286
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:06,680
questions for Israel about the car. Okay, isn't the trunk

1287
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:12,159
of the car there's a black trash bag when when

1288
01:16:12,199 --> 01:16:15,880
we recovered the car, do you recall if that's if

1289
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,680
that's something you brought or it was, or it was

1290
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:22,199
something that was in the car when you got it.

1291
01:16:22,199 --> 01:16:23,920
It depends how big of a trash bag it is,

1292
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:28,680
I guess. Okay, so you don't have a specific recollection

1293
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:30,800
of leaving a trash bag in the trunk.

1294
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:33,399
Speaker 7: I would be surprised if I had left a trash bag.

1295
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:37,920
I it's possible that I did, But.

1296
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:40,600
Speaker 3: If you did, it would have been a newer one.

1297
01:16:41,119 --> 01:16:43,079
Speaker 6: Yeah, it would have been fresh off of the role.

1298
01:16:43,319 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 7: And like I said, there were very large trash bags,

1299
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:47,079
so they're pretty distinctive.

1300
01:16:47,359 --> 01:16:51,720
Speaker 3: Were they heavy duty they were, I believe on tractor

1301
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:53,000
bag or were they just big?

1302
01:16:53,159 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 6: I think they were two or three milf.

1303
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:57,159
Speaker 7: They weren't.

1304
01:16:57,199 --> 01:16:59,600
Speaker 6: They weren't super heavy duty, they were just very large.

1305
01:17:00,239 --> 01:17:03,600
Speaker 3: Okay. Did you get in led by any kids?

1306
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:04,520
Speaker 6: I don't think so.

1307
01:17:05,359 --> 01:17:10,319
Speaker 3: All right, there were uh you mentioned that the car

1308
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:16,680
overheated or saw uh cooling containers in the car? Is

1309
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:17,520
that is that right?

1310
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:18,079
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1311
01:17:18,119 --> 01:17:18,520
Speaker 3: There was.

1312
01:17:20,279 --> 01:17:22,159
Speaker 7: When I got in the car to put the seat back,

1313
01:17:22,319 --> 01:17:23,920
it wouldn't go back all the way. I think there

1314
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:25,880
were a couple of gallons of ana freeze.

1315
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 3: Okay, And did you remember anything else that was in

1316
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:32,279
the car.

1317
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 7: There was like some seat cushions, like lower back support,

1318
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:42,359
cushions and something like that.

1319
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,119
Speaker 3: A pillow. Do you do you recall a pillow being

1320
01:17:46,159 --> 01:17:47,000
in the car? Yeah?

1321
01:17:47,119 --> 01:17:52,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, there were several several pillows are back like I say,

1322
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:54,359
like back support or something.

1323
01:17:55,159 --> 01:17:56,960
Speaker 3: You didn't put it in the car, like I mean,

1324
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,479
when that wasn't part of stuff you took away from

1325
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:00,720
the house that was already.

1326
01:18:00,399 --> 01:18:04,920
Speaker 7: In the car, right, that was that was something that

1327
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:09,199
they you could tell they habitually drove with those things.

1328
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:13,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. One one thing we did notice that we took.

1329
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:16,960
We took from the car machine strange. It looked like

1330
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:22,960
a couple of packages of women's underwear that was I

1331
01:18:23,359 --> 01:18:25,159
look not open to me. I don't know, is it.

1332
01:18:25,399 --> 01:18:31,880
Do you recall that It's possible I don't.

1333
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 7: I don't know if they were if it was in

1334
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:37,359
the trunk. It's possible they fell out of the suitcase

1335
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:40,079
or something. But I mean unless no, I don't recall

1336
01:18:40,319 --> 01:18:41,439
putting those in there.

1337
01:18:41,319 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 3: Now, okay, all right? And you don't recall seeing them

1338
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:47,920
in there though, just as you were checking out the car.

1339
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, it seems like there was a bag of something

1340
01:18:53,479 --> 01:18:57,039
in there. I don't remember. Like I said, I checked

1341
01:18:57,039 --> 01:18:58,800
out the car. I was only I was looking for

1342
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:01,520
specific things when I checked out the car, So anything

1343
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:05,600
else inconsequential I probably just pushed under the seat or something.

1344
01:19:06,159 --> 01:19:11,319
Speaker 3: Okay, what were you looking for, like there's a value

1345
01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:12,399
or no?

1346
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 6: I was trying to figure out who lived in the house.

1347
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:23,159
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, So most of your intelligence gathering about

1348
01:19:23,199 --> 01:19:25,119
the house and the car and all that stuff is

1349
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:31,399
to determine who lives in the house, Am I right there? Yeah?

1350
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 7: I just wanted to know what to expect when I

1351
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:36,399
when I went in, I was I was looking in

1352
01:19:36,399 --> 01:19:40,640
the car for for dog hair, And it's trying to

1353
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:43,439
find out the ages and how many people there might

1354
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:46,159
be living in the house by going through all the

1355
01:19:46,159 --> 01:19:47,920
paperwork in the car things like that.

1356
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,279
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I mean that that makes sense to me.

1357
01:19:51,359 --> 01:19:54,000
That's similar to some of the stuff we do when

1358
01:19:54,039 --> 01:20:01,479
we're looking to the gain entry to a house. Now

1359
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:06,600
I must, But apart from who's going to be in

1360
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:12,399
the house when you get in there, I mean, does

1361
01:20:12,439 --> 01:20:13,319
that really matter to you?

1362
01:20:14,159 --> 01:20:14,279
Speaker 7: Uh?

1363
01:20:15,319 --> 01:20:18,239
Speaker 3: Because I mean, do you have like a plan A

1364
01:20:18,399 --> 01:20:22,279
if it's if it's uh, you know what you expected

1365
01:20:22,319 --> 01:20:26,479
me and a woman and it's but but it doesn't

1366
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:30,039
matter if it's a you know, three people or or

1367
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:33,159
two people or you know, you know what I mean.

1368
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:36,640
Would you would you have, like, if you saw something

1369
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:38,359
that you didn't expect to see, would you have walked

1370
01:20:38,359 --> 01:20:40,600
away from that place and have gone somewhere else?

1371
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:43,920
Speaker 7: If there had been three or four people in the house,

1372
01:20:44,319 --> 01:20:47,000
then I would have just tied them up and left.

1373
01:20:47,279 --> 01:20:52,720
Speaker 3: Okay. And you got feelings about kids, I mean, are

1374
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:56,840
they like something you want to stay away from? Yeah?

1375
01:20:56,880 --> 01:20:59,239
Speaker 6: I try, yeah, try to avoid it.

1376
01:20:59,319 --> 01:21:04,920
Speaker 7: I mean, I I am already had pretty strong suspicions

1377
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:06,720
that if there were gonna be kids there, there were

1378
01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:11,840
probably grandkids or something. And I didn't think that was

1379
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:15,119
very likely. Like I say, I checked out the garage

1380
01:21:15,199 --> 01:21:18,359
and the backyard and I was I was looking for

1381
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:19,079
signs of that.

1382
01:21:19,199 --> 01:21:23,760
Speaker 3: I didn't see anything. So all right, okay, is there

1383
01:21:26,039 --> 01:21:35,159
Do you have any questions for me right now? No?

1384
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:40,319
All right, I'm trying to I'm trying to think for

1385
01:21:40,359 --> 01:21:43,319
a minute, if you know, because I'm probably never going

1386
01:21:43,399 --> 01:21:45,880
to get a chance to do this again. If there's

1387
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:52,720
anything else that that I want to ask you, But

1388
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:54,600
I mean there are millions of things I want to

1389
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:58,439
ask you. But you know, I understand the ground rules,

1390
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,920
and I and I respect, you know, at least the

1391
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:08,920
level of cooperation I'm getting from it now. Uh, do

1392
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:12,920
you mind if I ask you about why why Vermont

1393
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:16,000
and why why es ex Junction? It just seems kind

1394
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:20,720
of off the beaten path from from you know, with

1395
01:22:21,079 --> 01:22:24,119
your the areas you've been to, m.

1396
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:32,279
Speaker 6: Well, off the beaten path, that's kind of like what

1397
01:22:32,399 --> 01:22:33,039
I like to do.

1398
01:22:33,239 --> 01:22:39,079
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I was. I was with with the

1399
01:22:39,159 --> 01:22:44,920
recovery team at the reservoir and that, I mean, it's

1400
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:49,000
a beautiful area certainly, that's off the beaten path about

1401
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:53,800
as far as you can go. You mentioned that your

1402
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:57,199
I think your plan was to say that you would

1403
01:22:57,239 --> 01:23:00,560
come to the area to do some fishing. Is it

1404
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:01,119
is that right?

1405
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:05,720
Speaker 7: Well, not so much a plant that is actually what

1406
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:08,239
I was doing. I was, I was, I was fishing.

1407
01:23:08,359 --> 01:23:14,880
I mean, I was fishing along the I don't know

1408
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:17,800
what you call it, like there's a there's a breakwater

1409
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:20,000
that goes out into Lake Champlain.

1410
01:23:20,079 --> 01:23:24,279
Speaker 6: I think it was. I was there right after the flooding.

1411
01:23:24,319 --> 01:23:26,319
Speaker 7: There was a big flood and there was a lot

1412
01:23:26,359 --> 01:23:29,000
of damage that was done to the parks along the

1413
01:23:29,039 --> 01:23:32,640
water waterways there. So I was I was driving around

1414
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:36,279
out there looking at all that all the flooded campgrounds

1415
01:23:36,319 --> 01:23:39,640
and damaged trees, and there were quite a few people fishing.

1416
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:42,680
So I stopped and asked them what they were, what

1417
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:44,800
they were fishing for and if they had any luck, and.

1418
01:23:46,359 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 6: Decided that I was going to stop.

1419
01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:52,279
Speaker 7: And my originally I wasn't even planning on staying in Vermont.

1420
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:56,319
I was, you know, planning on going on to New

1421
01:23:56,359 --> 01:23:58,720
Hampshire and maybe staying there for a.

1422
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 3: Couple of days. And but yeah, I just I just decided.

1423
01:24:05,039 --> 01:24:08,319
Speaker 7: I wanted to try fishing there, and I already had

1424
01:24:08,319 --> 01:24:09,439
any fishing gear.

1425
01:24:09,319 --> 01:24:12,880
Speaker 3: With me, not really, No, did you have a license?

1426
01:24:13,359 --> 01:24:13,560
Speaker 10: Yeah?

1427
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:14,359
Speaker 3: I did, I did get I.

1428
01:24:14,319 --> 01:24:16,319
Speaker 7: Think I got a three day license or something.

1429
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:19,000
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, I don't want to I don't want you

1430
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:20,920
to get jumped up for fishing without a license.

1431
01:24:21,359 --> 01:24:24,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, there after me for poaching already.

1432
01:24:24,279 --> 01:24:29,800
Speaker 3: So I mean that's a that's a serious offense at Vermont. Yeah.

1433
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:35,960
But uh anyway, Uh so so you're I mean, are

1434
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:39,439
there are other areas in Vermont that that you're that

1435
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:42,479
you are familiar with or is it just because this

1436
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:46,359
is off the ferry route kind of that that you

1437
01:24:46,359 --> 01:24:49,399
you decided to stay in Essex. No, I've been.

1438
01:24:50,319 --> 01:24:55,079
Speaker 7: I've been all through Vermont various occasions. I don't I

1439
01:24:55,079 --> 01:25:01,159
don't always stay in like Burlington area. It's it's kind

1440
01:25:01,159 --> 01:25:03,640
of on the way to New York though, from route

1441
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:04,039
I take.

1442
01:25:04,199 --> 01:25:09,279
Speaker 3: So okay, and oh, I just thought of a question.

1443
01:25:09,399 --> 01:25:11,479
Do you eat a restaurants when you're in town?

1444
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:13,600
Speaker 6: Not usually?

1445
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:19,279
Speaker 3: Did do you recall when you were this visit here

1446
01:25:19,359 --> 01:25:24,319
in in June if you eated any restaurants or go

1447
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:26,680
through McDonald's or what do you do about food?

1448
01:25:28,279 --> 01:25:30,640
Speaker 7: I don't remember on that last trip, but it seems

1449
01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:34,199
like I'm sure I did eat a restaurant at some point.

1450
01:25:34,319 --> 01:25:38,760
Speaker 3: It must not have been very memorable. Sorry, yeah, okay,

1451
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:41,079
Well that's all right. I just give me one more

1452
01:25:41,159 --> 01:25:47,199
thing to to look at. All right. Like I said,

1453
01:25:47,199 --> 01:25:50,560
I'm winding down here, I'm spinning my wheels, trying to

1454
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:53,319
make every advantage of Let.

1455
01:25:53,199 --> 01:25:55,800
Speaker 4: Me ask you a quick questions, is Frank, is really

1456
01:25:56,079 --> 01:25:57,680
do you bring your cigars with you and you buy

1457
01:25:57,680 --> 01:25:58,119
them there?

1458
01:25:59,119 --> 01:26:00,720
Speaker 6: I usually buy them wherever I am.

1459
01:26:01,079 --> 01:26:06,520
Speaker 4: When'd you buy cigars and Vermont?

1460
01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:09,279
Speaker 6: Well, on that trip, I had them with me.

1461
01:26:10,159 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 7: Oh, I bought him in Chicago, Chicago or Indiana.

1462
01:26:15,119 --> 01:26:18,399
Speaker 6: I don't know, somewhere down there, it's.

1463
01:26:18,079 --> 01:26:19,439
Speaker 5: That same brand you usually smoke.

1464
01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:22,359
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it's not as they're kind of a

1465
01:26:22,399 --> 01:26:25,039
little more difficult to find certain areas.

1466
01:26:25,079 --> 01:26:29,079
Speaker 10: But yeah, mister Keith, I just have a couple other

1467
01:26:29,159 --> 01:26:29,880
questions as well.

1468
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:32,720
Speaker 8: Obviously, I think.

1469
01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:34,600
Speaker 10: That the folks out there told you that one of

1470
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:36,720
the reasons that we're having this conversation with you is

1471
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:40,319
because the Courier house has been sitting vacant. I mean

1472
01:26:40,319 --> 01:26:43,079
we helmet as evidence for the past year, and that

1473
01:26:43,199 --> 01:26:45,479
family would like get back because at some point here

1474
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:47,720
because they want to put it back on the market,

1475
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:49,359
and there's a chance that's going d up going to

1476
01:26:49,399 --> 01:26:52,600
foreclosure unless we do something pretty quick, which is why

1477
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:55,119
we're having this conversation, so we can verify that it

1478
01:26:55,199 --> 01:26:57,920
was you and only you that.

1479
01:26:58,479 --> 01:26:59,840
Speaker 8: Were involved in their death.

1480
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:04,640
Speaker 10: And I'm one and so that's the focus of my questions.

1481
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:07,520
Speaker 8: And was there anything about missus Courrier.

1482
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:11,079
Speaker 10: I understand that you spent it sounds like more time

1483
01:27:11,119 --> 01:27:12,680
with her than you did miss a career.

1484
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:15,239
Speaker 8: Anything about anything observed.

1485
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:20,479
Speaker 10: About her body, birthmarks, anything like that while you were.

1486
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:22,520
Speaker 3: Involved with her.

1487
01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:31,039
Speaker 6: Nothing I really want to talk about, though, Well, Obviously.

1488
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:33,119
Speaker 10: For us, that would be critical to show that it

1489
01:27:33,159 --> 01:27:36,319
was you, and only you that could have committed this crime,

1490
01:27:36,359 --> 01:27:38,239
because nobody else would have that information.

1491
01:27:38,920 --> 01:27:39,920
Speaker 8: So to the extent that.

1492
01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:42,479
Speaker 10: You're willing to share even a portion of that, it

1493
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:44,279
would be very helpful for us and able to get

1494
01:27:44,399 --> 01:27:47,119
in order to give the house back and close out

1495
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:49,159
this aspect of our investigation.

1496
01:27:50,159 --> 01:27:54,439
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I I think at this point in

1497
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:56,920
the interview, it's pretty obvious that I was in the house,

1498
01:27:57,039 --> 01:28:02,520
and considering that I had known ties to them prior

1499
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:05,000
to that night, there's really no other way I could

1500
01:28:05,119 --> 01:28:07,560
know as much about that house as as I do

1501
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:09,960
unless I was the one who took them out of it.

1502
01:28:10,039 --> 01:28:13,039
Speaker 10: So is there anything Can you give me a general

1503
01:28:13,359 --> 01:28:15,640
It can't be specific about what it is you recall

1504
01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:19,199
for her to give me a general idea about what

1505
01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:23,479
part of her body saw something distinctive or anything like that.

1506
01:28:24,239 --> 01:28:25,000
Speaker 3: No, I can't.

1507
01:28:25,119 --> 01:28:26,319
Speaker 6: I can't really go into that.

1508
01:28:27,199 --> 01:28:34,199
Speaker 3: Okay, did bring a question that went in my head

1509
01:28:34,199 --> 01:28:38,439
and out of it all?

1510
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:38,680
Speaker 8: Right?

1511
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 3: Well, never mind, Oh yeah, that's that's what I wanted

1512
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:47,760
to ask you. This guy Bill spent a lot of

1513
01:28:47,800 --> 01:28:53,439
time on the internet. Is I mean, do you do

1514
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:55,119
you spend a lot of time on the computer.

1515
01:28:56,479 --> 01:28:59,760
Speaker 6: I have carry outic you know, from time to time.

1516
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:04,119
Speaker 3: Is there any chance you guys could have ever crossed

1517
01:29:04,239 --> 01:29:09,000
Pats on the internet, either chatting or anything like that.

1518
01:29:10,159 --> 01:29:13,840
Speaker 7: Oh, it's anything's possible, but I doubt it statistically it

1519
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:14,880
seems improbable.

1520
01:29:15,319 --> 01:29:19,079
Speaker 3: Okay, but it's certainly that would not have been a

1521
01:29:19,119 --> 01:29:23,159
conscious thing that you ever communicated with with this guy

1522
01:29:23,279 --> 01:29:27,479
on the internet. No, okay, all right?

1523
01:29:28,159 --> 01:29:30,039
Speaker 10: Is there anything else, mister Keith you can think of

1524
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:33,439
that was personal they spoke to you about like that?

1525
01:29:34,039 --> 01:29:36,680
We have obviously the information about them having moved or

1526
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:41,079
family members having moved here from Nuski. Is it's personal

1527
01:29:41,159 --> 01:29:42,960
to them? Is there anything else you can talk about

1528
01:29:43,319 --> 01:29:45,720
or recall that they told you that was sort of

1529
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:46,760
personal to their lives?

1530
01:29:48,479 --> 01:29:53,880
Speaker 7: No. I, for the most part, the only time I was,

1531
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:58,560
you know, letting them mistake was to answer questions that

1532
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:04,960
I asked them. So I I don't. I yeah, I wasn't.

1533
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:06,760
It wasn't a typical conversation.

1534
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:08,159
Speaker 6: I guess you could say, it's not.

1535
01:30:08,319 --> 01:30:09,039
Speaker 3: It's not like I.

1536
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:13,920
Speaker 10: Did mister Courier say anything to you about the military.

1537
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:15,680
Speaker 8: I know you talked about and.

1538
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:17,199
Speaker 10: I may be getting the wording wrong on this, but

1539
01:30:17,319 --> 01:30:19,680
either the branch of the military or the infantry or

1540
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:21,520
something like that that you were both a part of

1541
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:23,680
or had both some similar history with.

1542
01:30:24,239 --> 01:30:24,880
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1543
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:28,000
Speaker 10: And did he tell you anything about specifically what he

1544
01:30:28,039 --> 01:30:31,119
did in the military or his experiences where he been

1545
01:30:31,319 --> 01:30:32,000
anything like that.

1546
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:36,680
Speaker 6: No, he just said it was a long time ago.

1547
01:30:37,199 --> 01:30:37,560
Speaker 3: Okay.

1548
01:30:38,399 --> 01:30:40,800
Speaker 10: And what was it again about the two of you

1549
01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:43,800
that you had in common in terms of the military.

1550
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:45,760
Speaker 8: Was it the same branch of military.

1551
01:30:46,079 --> 01:30:51,520
Speaker 7: The same division, I believe, okay, which was what twenty fifth?

1552
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:53,079
Speaker 3: Okay?

1553
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:55,119
Speaker 10: And I'm sorry, I don't know a lot of the

1554
01:30:55,119 --> 01:30:57,000
military that's part of the.

1555
01:30:56,680 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 7: Army or yeah, that's the army. Well they call it.

1556
01:31:00,079 --> 01:31:02,800
They call it the electric strawberry. That's what caught my eye.

1557
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:05,920
It's a It was the shoulder patch on his uniform.

1558
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:07,399
It was the same as the one that I had

1559
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:08,760
worn when I was in the military.

1560
01:31:09,520 --> 01:31:12,760
Speaker 10: Does it say electric strawberry or like a flame term

1561
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:13,520
for what it is?

1562
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:14,640
Speaker 6: It's a leaf.

1563
01:31:15,119 --> 01:31:16,840
Speaker 7: I don't know what kind of leaf, maybe an oak

1564
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:19,000
leaf or something with a lightning.

1565
01:31:18,640 --> 01:31:19,359
Speaker 3: Bolt through it.

1566
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:20,199
Speaker 8: Okay.

1567
01:31:20,279 --> 01:31:24,079
Speaker 10: And you saw that in on somewhere on the insignia

1568
01:31:24,199 --> 01:31:25,000
or the documents.

1569
01:31:25,119 --> 01:31:26,000
Speaker 8: Where did you see that?

1570
01:31:26,399 --> 01:31:28,800
Speaker 7: I saw it in the in the dresser. It was

1571
01:31:28,840 --> 01:31:31,199
a unit patch. It was either on a uniform or

1572
01:31:31,199 --> 01:31:33,119
it was separate in a bag. And I think it

1573
01:31:33,159 --> 01:31:37,640
was in a bag of his other military medals or something.

1574
01:31:38,039 --> 01:31:38,399
Speaker 3: Okay.

1575
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:41,840
Speaker 10: And that was in the i'll call it the spare

1576
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:43,199
room for lack of a better word.

1577
01:31:43,399 --> 01:31:45,760
Speaker 6: Right, it was in the bedroom adjoining theirs.

1578
01:31:46,119 --> 01:31:48,560
Speaker 10: Okay, and you call it there was actually a bed

1579
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:49,600
in that bedroom as well.

1580
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:52,840
Speaker 7: There was either a bed or a couch. I don't Yeah,

1581
01:31:53,039 --> 01:31:54,199
I think there was a bed.

1582
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:57,920
Speaker 8: Okay, Okay.

1583
01:31:58,279 --> 01:32:00,880
Speaker 10: And I know that you said it not make interview

1584
01:32:01,159 --> 01:32:04,479
that Bill Currier had on shorts that looked similar to

1585
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:06,720
you to maybe swim trunks or something like that.

1586
01:32:07,119 --> 01:32:08,520
Speaker 3: Right, And do you recall.

1587
01:32:08,319 --> 01:32:09,840
Speaker 8: What she was wearing the ring.

1588
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:16,640
Speaker 7: She was wearing really lightweight like sleeping shorts and T shirt.

1589
01:32:18,159 --> 01:32:21,640
Speaker 10: It looked like they weren't something They looked like a

1590
01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:23,920
sleep wear, like something you would buy a sajamas.

1591
01:32:24,319 --> 01:32:25,079
Speaker 3: Right, Okay?

1592
01:32:25,359 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1593
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:31,039
Speaker 3: Israel are you are you? Are you made of American

1594
01:32:31,159 --> 01:32:35,239
or anything? No? I noticed you spent several years out

1595
01:32:35,279 --> 01:32:40,600
on the on the West Coast working for the Maka Tribes.

1596
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:45,680
Is that correct my contract? Yes? And then uh, from

1597
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:49,000
what I understand from looking at the media, you might

1598
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:52,760
have had had you might have some property in upstate

1599
01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:57,199
New York near the Saint Regis Tribes. Is that correct? Yes?

1600
01:32:58,399 --> 01:33:01,520
Is that just coincidental? Or did you have any affinity

1601
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:07,079
for Native America or I mean, it is that significant

1602
01:33:07,079 --> 01:33:12,680
in any way I've had i'n't you know.

1603
01:33:14,079 --> 01:33:16,239
Speaker 7: I don't know how significant it is, but you know,

1604
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:18,920
my our paths have crossed for a long time.

1605
01:33:19,079 --> 01:33:24,119
Speaker 3: So if you have a I mean you view these

1606
01:33:24,119 --> 01:33:28,079
people as as victims or people you have respect for.

1607
01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:32,439
Speaker 6: I have respect for everybody.

1608
01:33:33,159 --> 01:33:40,039
Speaker 3: I just any anything in particular. Well, I guess not

1609
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:45,159
from the sounds of things, Well, you guess you like

1610
01:33:45,239 --> 01:33:49,760
the outdoors. It sounds like you're kind of very comfortable

1611
01:33:50,039 --> 01:33:54,920
in the wilderness surroundings. And I just wondered if that

1612
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:59,720
was any part of your heritage. It's just the way

1613
01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:00,479
I was raised.

1614
01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:05,920
Speaker 7: I no, but I'm not. I'm not a Native American that.

1615
01:34:05,920 --> 01:34:06,359
Speaker 3: I know of.

1616
01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:10,359
Speaker 10: And if I can just ask, and I know that

1617
01:34:10,399 --> 01:34:12,119
you've said that you've run a lot of detail, and

1618
01:34:12,159 --> 01:34:14,199
you have and I'm just trying to I guess answer

1619
01:34:14,359 --> 01:34:15,000
some questions.

1620
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:16,319
Speaker 8: They're still lingering out there.

1621
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:18,359
Speaker 10: I think you said in the math interview that when

1622
01:34:18,399 --> 01:34:21,079
you went into their bedroom that you tore or or

1623
01:34:21,119 --> 01:34:22,640
brought all of the covers off.

1624
01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:22,960
Speaker 8: Of the bed.

1625
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:25,439
Speaker 3: Is that right? Yes? Okay?

1626
01:34:25,640 --> 01:34:27,319
Speaker 10: And did those covers stay off the bed?

1627
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:30,079
Speaker 6: Probably okay?

1628
01:34:31,479 --> 01:34:34,039
Speaker 8: And then ask you restrain them?

1629
01:34:34,079 --> 01:34:36,560
Speaker 10: It sounds like just with their wrists by their wrists,

1630
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:37,079
is that right?

1631
01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:38,800
Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay?

1632
01:34:39,039 --> 01:34:40,960
Speaker 10: And did they stay on the bed or did they

1633
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:43,439
go somewhere else? No.

1634
01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:46,720
Speaker 7: I told them. I had them roll over on their

1635
01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:51,439
stomachs and I, you know, I told them to keep

1636
01:34:51,479 --> 01:34:53,680
their faces down on the pillow and not look look

1637
01:34:53,720 --> 01:34:59,199
at anything or talk or anything. And after they had

1638
01:34:59,239 --> 01:35:02,640
done that, told them to put their hands behind their backs,

1639
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:05,039
and that's I restrained their wrists and just told them

1640
01:35:05,079 --> 01:35:05,680
to stay there.

1641
01:35:06,840 --> 01:35:11,279
Speaker 3: So basically you were able to control them, at least initially,

1642
01:35:12,399 --> 01:35:15,720
just by the fact that they did they knew you

1643
01:35:15,720 --> 01:35:16,239
had a gun.

1644
01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:20,680
Speaker 6: I don't think they knew that they I told them

1645
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:21,239
I had a gun.

1646
01:35:21,319 --> 01:35:25,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, And uh, well, they obviously got the message.

1647
01:35:24,960 --> 01:35:29,359
Speaker 7: That you meant business, right, Not really that was kind

1648
01:35:29,359 --> 01:35:33,960
of the problem.

1649
01:35:31,039 --> 01:35:37,279
Speaker 3: Uh, I mean, I I'm trying to you know, picture

1650
01:35:37,359 --> 01:35:40,880
this in my mind, and I imagine when you go

1651
01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:45,680
in there, you you are, you know, kind of kind

1652
01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:47,199
of like when I kick a door in and I

1653
01:35:47,479 --> 01:35:51,159
tell people to get on the ground. It's obvious just

1654
01:35:51,199 --> 01:35:54,600
from the tone of my voice that that you don't

1655
01:35:54,640 --> 01:35:57,279
want to mess you don't want to not do what

1656
01:35:57,319 --> 01:36:00,439
I'm telling you to do. I mean, is that a

1657
01:36:00,479 --> 01:36:01,159
similar thing?

1658
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:10,039
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, initially that's that's the way it went down.

1659
01:36:10,159 --> 01:36:14,000
Speaker 6: But once the.

1660
01:36:16,359 --> 01:36:19,039
Speaker 7: I guess, once they realized what's going on, what's really

1661
01:36:19,079 --> 01:36:19,520
going on?

1662
01:36:19,720 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 3: Is that you know, did they if you were gonna

1663
01:36:24,039 --> 01:36:26,039
kill him? I mean, like it was that big thing?

1664
01:36:26,199 --> 01:36:29,880
Or did it? Was it more like? What? What? What's

1665
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:30,359
going on?

1666
01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:38,039
Speaker 7: I think they were incredulous of the whole situation, and

1667
01:36:38,039 --> 01:36:42,039
and that was part of the problem is they didn't

1668
01:36:42,079 --> 01:36:44,359
realize how serious the situation was.

1669
01:36:44,479 --> 01:36:46,279
Speaker 6: I think they thought that they could.

1670
01:36:47,319 --> 01:36:49,359
Speaker 3: Talk their way out of it or negotiate their way

1671
01:36:49,399 --> 01:36:52,439
out of it. And are they trying to like build

1672
01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:58,399
rapport with you, like, yeah, okay, gotcha. Did you get

1673
01:36:58,399 --> 01:37:00,880
the sense that they had been dreat before they went

1674
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:04,159
to bed? Like have you just smell alcohol in your

1675
01:37:04,199 --> 01:37:08,279
breath or anything like that? No, I didn't know.

1676
01:37:08,479 --> 01:37:11,760
Speaker 7: I I think I knew that there were somebody had

1677
01:37:11,800 --> 01:37:14,520
been drinking in the house, because I remember seeing something

1678
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:18,359
to that effect. And I knew that she smoked, And

1679
01:37:20,199 --> 01:37:23,039
I don't beyond that, I don't. I didn't notice anything

1680
01:37:23,039 --> 01:37:23,960
about them personally.

1681
01:37:24,039 --> 01:37:25,880
Speaker 3: No, you let her smoke, buddy too.

1682
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:29,760
Speaker 6: I think I didn't let her smoke or time or two?

1683
01:37:29,880 --> 01:37:33,039
Speaker 8: Yeah, okay, when did you do that?

1684
01:37:33,079 --> 01:37:35,039
Speaker 10: When they were you were still at their house.

1685
01:37:34,880 --> 01:37:36,520
Speaker 8: Or when you went to the farmhouse when we were

1686
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:37,319
at the farmhouse.

1687
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:39,600
Speaker 10: So did you unrestrained her during that time?

1688
01:37:39,960 --> 01:37:40,119
Speaker 7: No?

1689
01:37:41,159 --> 01:37:42,960
Speaker 8: Well did you hold a cigarette up to her about

1690
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:43,319
for her?

1691
01:37:43,920 --> 01:37:44,279
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1692
01:37:45,079 --> 01:37:47,680
Speaker 6: I mean I she wasn't in restraints the whole time,

1693
01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:49,560
but initially she was.

1694
01:37:49,880 --> 01:37:53,239
Speaker 8: Yeah, Okay, it was during that time that she let

1695
01:37:53,279 --> 01:37:53,640
her smoke.

1696
01:37:54,199 --> 01:37:55,920
Speaker 6: I let her smoke a couple of different times.

1697
01:37:56,239 --> 01:37:58,560
Speaker 8: Okay, after her initial.

1698
01:38:00,720 --> 01:38:03,880
Speaker 10: Attempt to get away, did she try to get away again?

1699
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:05,359
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1700
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:06,560
Speaker 8: And when did that happen?

1701
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:10,399
Speaker 6: That happened when I was.

1702
01:38:13,199 --> 01:38:16,840
Speaker 7: Dealing with the situation with mister Curry in the basement.

1703
01:38:18,079 --> 01:38:20,119
Speaker 6: I think she, I mean, she could hear what was

1704
01:38:20,239 --> 01:38:20,760
that there was.

1705
01:38:20,720 --> 01:38:23,119
Speaker 7: Something going on, and I think I already had her

1706
01:38:23,119 --> 01:38:24,960
tied up pretty well by then, but I could tell

1707
01:38:24,960 --> 01:38:27,079
when I got back up that she'd been trying to

1708
01:38:27,800 --> 01:38:28,600
get away.

1709
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:32,439
Speaker 10: Okay, and she was she successful in any way and

1710
01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:33,199
trying to get away?

1711
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:34,039
Speaker 6: Not really?

1712
01:38:34,119 --> 01:38:36,600
Speaker 8: No, did you tell her that those?

1713
01:38:36,680 --> 01:38:39,720
Speaker 3: Did she? Well?

1714
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:42,359
Speaker 6: No, I never told her that.

1715
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:44,920
Speaker 8: Now Or do you think she knew it?

1716
01:38:45,960 --> 01:38:47,119
Speaker 6: I don't know what she thought.

1717
01:38:47,359 --> 01:38:52,159
Speaker 7: I mean, she she knew that there was definitely an

1718
01:38:52,239 --> 01:38:54,479
altercation in the basement, and.

1719
01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:57,439
Speaker 3: She may have.

1720
01:38:57,520 --> 01:39:02,119
Speaker 6: Suspected that there were I don't I don't really think

1721
01:39:02,199 --> 01:39:02,720
I think.

1722
01:39:02,560 --> 01:39:04,359
Speaker 7: She knew that I came up and got a gun,

1723
01:39:05,039 --> 01:39:06,680
But I don't know if she knew that I had

1724
01:39:07,000 --> 01:39:09,880
shot it, because she probably wouldn't have recognized it as

1725
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:11,159
a gunshot.

1726
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:15,720
Speaker 3: To make more of a clicking noise when you when

1727
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:17,039
you had that silence are on it.

1728
01:39:18,640 --> 01:39:20,840
Speaker 7: The only I mean, with that silencer on it, the

1729
01:39:20,880 --> 01:39:23,720
only thing you could hear was the sound of the

1730
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:27,479
bolt going back and forth. And of course you can

1731
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:28,479
hear the bullet sitting.

1732
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:33,199
Speaker 3: But yeah, but from here it's probably not especially I mean,

1733
01:39:33,239 --> 01:39:34,319
is it raining at this time?

1734
01:39:35,880 --> 01:39:37,880
Speaker 6: I think it has started raining again at some point.

1735
01:39:37,920 --> 01:39:39,600
Speaker 7: I remember there was a hole in the roof and

1736
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:42,359
there was a lot of water pouring down in one

1737
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:43,920
through one portion of the house.

1738
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:51,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you uh, you mentioned it's something like a

1739
01:39:51,159 --> 01:39:55,840
like a hole cut into the floor for for a

1740
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:57,960
pipe to go through or something like that, because I

1741
01:39:57,960 --> 01:40:00,399
know you'd said something about your camp stop falling down

1742
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:04,000
through it or something. Yeah. Did you get the feeling

1743
01:40:04,039 --> 01:40:06,600
that there was a it was for a woodstove pipe

1744
01:40:06,760 --> 01:40:07,600
or something like that.

1745
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:09,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that's exactly what it was.

1746
01:40:10,039 --> 01:40:16,239
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, Well she was and from the sound

1747
01:40:16,319 --> 01:40:19,640
of the thing, she was pretty intact, I mean physically

1748
01:40:20,359 --> 01:40:26,359
until until like the last time you were done with

1749
01:40:26,399 --> 01:40:29,520
her upstairs in your heart and you mentioned strangling her

1750
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:31,399
and she had she had kind of given up or

1751
01:40:31,439 --> 01:40:35,119
something like that. Am I right? Is that is that accurate?

1752
01:40:36,600 --> 01:40:41,640
Or did you did did you injure or or rubber

1753
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:45,039
up or in any way before that?

1754
01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:49,960
Speaker 7: Well, it sounds like you heard the description.

1755
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:53,920
Speaker 3: I gave of well I understood, Yeah, I did, And

1756
01:40:54,359 --> 01:40:58,640
I just I don't have a full understanding of what

1757
01:40:58,680 --> 01:41:01,119
you were explaining. And maybe it's because you know, I

1758
01:41:01,159 --> 01:41:04,880
listened to it over a week ago and heard it once.

1759
01:41:06,640 --> 01:41:09,079
But but it sounds like you may have rubbed her

1760
01:41:09,159 --> 01:41:11,560
up a bit when she tried to escape the first time.

1761
01:41:13,000 --> 01:41:17,079
Speaker 7: Yeah, I had to be a little more assertive after

1762
01:41:17,399 --> 01:41:19,279
after that point you.

1763
01:41:19,239 --> 01:41:22,960
Speaker 3: Slap her around or punch her or you choked her,

1764
01:41:23,079 --> 01:41:26,439
And what's what's the I didn't hit her. I think

1765
01:41:26,479 --> 01:41:27,840
I grabbed her by the hair.

1766
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:31,840
Speaker 7: And and maybe by the back of the neck and

1767
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:33,720
and to take her into the house.

1768
01:41:34,399 --> 01:41:40,159
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, and now you bring her downstairs to

1769
01:41:40,279 --> 01:41:44,920
finish her off. But but you mentioned that she's she's

1770
01:41:45,039 --> 01:41:47,760
kind of out of it as you bring her downstairs.

1771
01:41:49,039 --> 01:41:52,000
Had you had you choked her out before or it

1772
01:41:52,079 --> 01:41:55,119
was it's just a result of all she had been through.

1773
01:41:58,079 --> 01:42:00,159
Speaker 6: Well, I'm sure it was a comedy. I mean, uh,

1774
01:42:02,119 --> 01:42:02,880
I had.

1775
01:42:04,159 --> 01:42:04,720
Speaker 7: Choked her.

1776
01:42:05,399 --> 01:42:08,439
Speaker 3: It is choking. I guess that is that a part

1777
01:42:08,479 --> 01:42:11,760
of what you do because I know you you mentioned

1778
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:17,560
that the whole tying up bondage thing is is is

1779
01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:20,840
important to you. I guess for no other for lack

1780
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:26,760
of a better term, is choking a big element of

1781
01:42:26,800 --> 01:42:40,119
this whole thing too? Yeah, okay, all right, So telling you,

1782
01:42:40,239 --> 01:42:42,840
I mean, you're pretty angry that things didn't go exactly

1783
01:42:43,000 --> 01:42:46,279
the way you wanted them to. Would this have had

1784
01:42:46,319 --> 01:42:50,279
any different conclusion? I mean, you've never had any intention

1785
01:42:50,319 --> 01:42:56,399
of letting these people live, did you no? Okay? All right,

1786
01:42:58,840 --> 01:43:01,840
I can't think of anything else. Use right now, anybody

1787
01:43:01,840 --> 01:43:05,880
else or Israel if you, if you have any questions,

1788
01:43:06,359 --> 01:43:06,920
jump right in.

1789
01:43:09,319 --> 01:43:13,880
Speaker 10: I know, mister Keith, this is Mary Morrison, and honestly,

1790
01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:18,359
and I had written a letter to the folks out

1791
01:43:18,359 --> 01:43:21,000
there that I think you've been. You've stayed a coffee.

1792
01:43:20,640 --> 01:43:24,439
Speaker 3: Of yeah, okay, And obviously.

1793
01:43:24,039 --> 01:43:27,399
Speaker 10: We appreciate your willingness to give us information today because

1794
01:43:27,399 --> 01:43:30,520
it helps us close out this aspect of our case.

1795
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:35,680
And as you know, this case is a very big

1796
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:39,960
deal in the state. We don't have people go missing

1797
01:43:40,760 --> 01:43:44,000
very often, and when they do, they're normally found fairly quickly.

1798
01:43:44,119 --> 01:43:46,600
Speaker 8: In this case with Warner, anniversary is coming up.

1799
01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:50,039
Speaker 10: Here in just a few days, and we expect there

1800
01:43:50,079 --> 01:43:52,119
to be a lot of media attention on this.

1801
01:43:52,119 --> 01:43:54,640
Speaker 8: And we expect them to be painting the.

1802
01:43:54,520 --> 01:43:58,359
Speaker 10: Police in a fairly unfavorable light about the fact that

1803
01:43:58,399 --> 01:44:00,479
it was not made in the rest in the case.

1804
01:44:01,319 --> 01:44:03,800
And obviously we have information right now as to who

1805
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:08,159
did it, and we have made a commitment on our

1806
01:44:08,239 --> 01:44:13,319
part to not attaching your name to this case, and

1807
01:44:13,399 --> 01:44:18,000
we've agreed to not charge you in Vermont without specific

1808
01:44:18,239 --> 01:44:20,119
permission from the federal authorities.

1809
01:44:20,479 --> 01:44:21,680
Speaker 8: But that's based.

1810
01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:27,840
Speaker 10: Wholly in part on you providing information about this victim

1811
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:31,840
in New York, and I understand that you're reluctant or

1812
01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:34,760
hesitant to give to give that information.

1813
01:44:35,000 --> 01:44:35,680
Speaker 8: Is that correct?

1814
01:44:36,239 --> 01:44:36,359
Speaker 3: Well?

1815
01:44:36,439 --> 01:44:38,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, if I can jump in, Israel, I just just

1816
01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:40,520
marry is is friends, just to let you know what

1817
01:44:40,600 --> 01:44:43,079
we had a discussion of beforehand.

1818
01:44:43,800 --> 01:44:45,399
Speaker 5: You know, I think Israel just needs.

1819
01:44:45,279 --> 01:44:49,520
Speaker 4: Some questions sounds like answering about the letter, about the situation.

1820
01:44:50,319 --> 01:44:54,039
But my understanding is, you know, he's never he's never

1821
01:44:54,119 --> 01:44:57,039
wavered from the fact that he is going to tell

1822
01:44:57,119 --> 01:44:58,119
us about New York.

1823
01:44:58,159 --> 01:45:00,840
Speaker 5: And obviously Israel can correct me if I'm wrong.

1824
01:45:02,239 --> 01:45:09,640
Speaker 7: Correct, that's you know, that's prior to everything up to

1825
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:13,880
this point. The main specifics of what I've been discussing

1826
01:45:14,000 --> 01:45:18,439
with investigators here have all been things that took place

1827
01:45:18,600 --> 01:45:23,960
within the last year, with the exception of a trip

1828
01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:27,359
that Vermont was also involved in. I believe they said

1829
01:45:27,359 --> 01:45:31,640
it was two thousand and nine. So I mean, I've

1830
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:34,680
given them some information on that trip. I'm just hesitant

1831
01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:40,439
to reveal too much more about what happened on that trip.

1832
01:45:40,520 --> 01:45:45,199
Until I find out what my options are as far

1833
01:45:45,279 --> 01:45:54,199
as potential agreement or negotiation we can come to regarding

1834
01:45:57,199 --> 01:46:00,960
whether or not I'm charged with it for number number one,

1835
01:46:01,119 --> 01:46:05,600
and at what time that information becomes public that I'm

1836
01:46:06,039 --> 01:46:10,039
that I'm responsible for for not just the things that

1837
01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:13,239
have happened within the last year, but things that happened

1838
01:46:13,239 --> 01:46:13,960
to prior to that.

1839
01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:16,279
Speaker 3: That's what my concern is at this point.

1840
01:46:17,159 --> 01:46:20,079
Speaker 10: Right well, And I mean, I don't understand you've got

1841
01:46:20,119 --> 01:46:23,840
lawyers out there that you can, you know, consult with

1842
01:46:23,960 --> 01:46:26,520
if you like. And I just want to dress one

1843
01:46:26,560 --> 01:46:28,960
thing because in the beginning of this conversation you asked,

1844
01:46:29,399 --> 01:46:31,399
I guess it may have been through Frank whether or

1845
01:46:31,439 --> 01:46:36,319
not Essex was found by this by that letter, right right,

1846
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:38,800
And I mean, I'm not sure if you're.

1847
01:46:38,800 --> 01:46:40,439
Speaker 8: Looking at this letter and trying.

1848
01:46:40,199 --> 01:46:42,399
Speaker 10: To pick it apart and see if there's some like

1849
01:46:42,479 --> 01:46:45,840
wiggle room or whatever there for us. And I mean,

1850
01:46:45,880 --> 01:46:46,840
I'm kind.

1851
01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:48,079
Speaker 8: Of I'm pretty straightforward.

1852
01:46:48,159 --> 01:46:51,199
Speaker 10: This is a commandment we've made because we're very interested,

1853
01:46:51,880 --> 01:46:54,920
obviously in closing out other cases if we can.

1854
01:46:55,039 --> 01:46:57,399
Speaker 8: I mean, my focus right now is Vermont in New York.

1855
01:46:57,479 --> 01:46:59,800
And that's it for right now.

1856
01:47:00,039 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 10: And our commitment is entirely dependent on that information being provided.

1857
01:47:05,960 --> 01:47:07,920
And I understand that you know you've got questions. I'm

1858
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:10,399
sure the legitimate questions that you want answered, But I'm

1859
01:47:10,439 --> 01:47:12,920
just trying to be direct and forth right with you

1860
01:47:13,279 --> 01:47:16,239
that that's the linchpin of the agreement for us.

1861
01:47:16,800 --> 01:47:20,039
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, in my mind, I don't feel that

1862
01:47:20,159 --> 01:47:23,279
I owe you anything per se because as far as

1863
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:26,840
the couriers are concerned, the only thing I've asked is

1864
01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:28,720
that my name not be attached to it.

1865
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:31,479
Speaker 6: You have all your information. You should have.

1866
01:47:32,880 --> 01:47:35,439
Speaker 7: Come to the realization by now that this crime is

1867
01:47:35,479 --> 01:47:38,920
completely solved and wrapped up and right.

1868
01:47:38,960 --> 01:47:41,520
Speaker 8: But we're not arresting anybody for it, you know. We're

1869
01:47:41,600 --> 01:47:43,159
doing that on our agreement with you.

1870
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:47,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they obviously you know, they're not going ahead

1871
01:47:47,239 --> 01:47:47,880
and charging you.

1872
01:47:48,760 --> 01:47:51,239
Speaker 3: We're dealing with the public. Follow Yeah, I love that,

1873
01:47:51,920 --> 01:47:55,399
which which isn't isn't great because you know, as far

1874
01:47:55,439 --> 01:47:57,800
as they're concerned, we haven't solved this thing.

1875
01:47:59,239 --> 01:48:01,680
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, and the public knows you're looking for

1876
01:48:01,720 --> 01:48:04,079
the bodies, which is more than you had a few

1877
01:48:04,119 --> 01:48:04,560
months ago.

1878
01:48:04,920 --> 01:48:08,199
Speaker 3: Well, don't get don't get me wrong, it's it's uh

1879
01:48:08,319 --> 01:48:11,520
I've lived with this case for well going on a

1880
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:17,800
year now, and uh yeah, since April. I yeah, I'm

1881
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:22,840
in a different place. Uh but you know that. I

1882
01:48:23,600 --> 01:48:26,399
guess it's not my issue to to speak about the

1883
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:29,319
agreement and stuff like that. So I'll just leave all

1884
01:48:29,359 --> 01:48:33,560
that stuff to to Marry and and the other attorneys,

1885
01:48:34,840 --> 01:48:40,039
and I just I appreciate you giving me additional details

1886
01:48:40,680 --> 01:48:44,840
which you have and if you if you don't mind,

1887
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:48,159
I want to ask you a personal question. I went

1888
01:48:48,199 --> 01:48:51,680
on your website. Did you do all that carpentry that

1889
01:48:51,680 --> 01:48:54,800
that the photos are all about? Yeah?

1890
01:48:55,399 --> 01:48:57,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean everything that was on the website or.

1891
01:48:57,840 --> 01:49:00,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, where did you learn to do that? Yeah?

1892
01:49:00,960 --> 01:49:02,840
Speaker 6: Oh? Practice makes perfect.

1893
01:49:04,079 --> 01:49:06,199
Speaker 3: With that, I said, practice makes perfect.

1894
01:49:06,239 --> 01:49:08,600
Speaker 6: I've been doing it, you know, since I was seventeen.

1895
01:49:08,760 --> 01:49:14,039
Speaker 3: So I mean, you're amazing. You're an amazing carpenter. I

1896
01:49:14,079 --> 01:49:17,520
wish you would have stayed that. I've always been, you

1897
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:22,319
know what I mean. But okay, well, thanks for your time.

1898
01:49:22,600 --> 01:49:24,840
Speaker 8: Are there questions I can answer, mister kath in terms

1899
01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:25,840
of the letter or not.

1900
01:49:27,960 --> 01:49:30,800
Speaker 7: I do have some concerns about the way the letter's worded,

1901
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:33,880
but I don't have an issue with with your commitment

1902
01:49:34,159 --> 01:49:36,359
it's things. It's all things that I think we can

1903
01:49:36,399 --> 01:49:38,199
work out from this end good.

1904
01:49:38,239 --> 01:49:42,600
Speaker 10: And that's obviously I'm encouraged to hear that. And like

1905
01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:44,399
I said, that's that's why, that's why.

1906
01:49:44,239 --> 01:49:44,720
Speaker 8: I wrote it.

1907
01:49:44,760 --> 01:49:46,640
Speaker 10: So I guess I just wanted to reassure you that

1908
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:51,520
to the extent there to extend, the concerns may exist,

1909
01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:53,359
there's certainly weren't intentional.

1910
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:54,760
Speaker 8: I'm telling you right now.

1911
01:49:54,600 --> 01:49:57,760
Speaker 10: That the commitment we made was in order to get

1912
01:49:57,800 --> 01:50:01,520
this information in the commitment stands well.

1913
01:50:01,560 --> 01:50:04,119
Speaker 7: I mean, I I always said, I feel I know

1914
01:50:04,800 --> 01:50:07,119
that right now there's hasn't been a lot of new

1915
01:50:07,119 --> 01:50:10,880
information you have on on things that happened prior to

1916
01:50:11,000 --> 01:50:12,000
within the last year.

1917
01:50:12,039 --> 01:50:13,439
Speaker 3: But I'm still.

1918
01:50:14,159 --> 01:50:16,880
Speaker 6: Pretty confident that it can.

1919
01:50:16,760 --> 01:50:21,800
Speaker 7: Be worked out to where investigators get everything that they

1920
01:50:21,840 --> 01:50:25,760
want and need to close the rest of these cases.

1921
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:31,840
Speaker 6: But yeah, it's it's it's.

1922
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:36,079
Speaker 7: Not gonna happen overnight because I have some concerns about

1923
01:50:36,359 --> 01:50:41,439
like my long term my fate, if you will, and

1924
01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:43,760
and those are the last cards I have to play.

1925
01:50:43,760 --> 01:50:46,039
And I know that, so you know, I it's not

1926
01:50:46,199 --> 01:50:48,760
it's not anything personal that I'm withholding information.

1927
01:50:48,800 --> 01:50:51,640
Speaker 6: It's just there's some other unresolved issues that.

1928
01:50:51,640 --> 01:50:53,960
Speaker 7: I'm dealing with right now that I want to want

1929
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:57,279
to make sure I have an understanding of it before

1930
01:50:57,279 --> 01:51:02,960
I before I jump in with both feet on some

1931
01:51:03,000 --> 01:51:03,960
of these other things.

1932
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:07,079
Speaker 10: Okay, what now of tho those issues have nothing to

1933
01:51:07,119 --> 01:51:09,359
do without directly.

1934
01:51:09,039 --> 01:51:13,439
Speaker 7: Them, No, I think frankly, I've been pretty impressed with

1935
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:19,640
the lack of media attention on, you know, what's been

1936
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:21,039
going on in a career case.

1937
01:51:21,119 --> 01:51:27,279
Speaker 6: I there was, Yeah, there's I mean, I know that.

1938
01:51:27,319 --> 01:51:30,000
Speaker 7: It can't be easy from your perspective to keep this

1939
01:51:30,079 --> 01:51:33,000
thing under wraps at this point, and so I have

1940
01:51:33,119 --> 01:51:36,920
been impressed that it's been that my name hasn't been

1941
01:51:36,920 --> 01:51:40,239
attached to it yet, and if it can stay that way,

1942
01:51:40,359 --> 01:51:42,359
that's will definitely.

1943
01:51:44,039 --> 01:51:45,680
Speaker 6: Speed up the process.

1944
01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:48,159
Speaker 7: I realize it's not going to be that way indefinitely,

1945
01:51:48,239 --> 01:51:49,560
but yeah, right, well.

1946
01:51:49,399 --> 01:51:51,680
Speaker 10: And you're right, I mean, it hasn't been easy because

1947
01:51:51,680 --> 01:51:56,239
it's George described you the I think early on when

1948
01:51:56,239 --> 01:52:00,920
people heard that the jump site had been able to

1949
01:52:00,960 --> 01:52:03,920
focused it or you know, limit where we would have

1950
01:52:03,960 --> 01:52:05,880
to search to a pretty specific area, I think we

1951
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:07,960
thought it might be a lot smaller, and it's not.

1952
01:52:08,079 --> 01:52:10,920
It's a big, big area so it requires a lot

1953
01:52:10,960 --> 01:52:13,479
of people to go through it, and so there's a

1954
01:52:13,479 --> 01:52:15,399
lot of people working on it. So to contain that

1955
01:52:15,479 --> 01:52:18,880
information is a lot of effort, and it's hard because,

1956
01:52:18,880 --> 01:52:21,920
as I said, you have not only you know, the

1957
01:52:21,960 --> 01:52:24,479
pressure from you in the sense that if this gets out,

1958
01:52:24,520 --> 01:52:26,680
then you may not give information. So that's obviously a

1959
01:52:26,720 --> 01:52:29,279
real factor for us, but also we've got a lot

1960
01:52:29,319 --> 01:52:31,720
of public pressure because it is a big deal here

1961
01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:33,279
and people want to know what happened.

1962
01:52:33,279 --> 01:52:35,680
Speaker 8: They know we're looking for bodies that they assume.

1963
01:52:35,760 --> 01:52:38,520
Speaker 10: I think that we're looking for bodies based on credible

1964
01:52:38,520 --> 01:52:41,560
information that the bodies are there, and you.

1965
01:52:41,720 --> 01:52:45,159
Speaker 8: Don't put the huge amount of resources.

1966
01:52:44,600 --> 01:52:48,000
Speaker 10: Into this search without some credible information. I think people

1967
01:52:48,079 --> 01:52:50,760
understand that, and there's been a lot of pressure on

1968
01:52:50,920 --> 01:52:54,199
us to do something about that, to respond to that.

1969
01:52:54,359 --> 01:52:58,159
And I'm hoping that when you say that our silence

1970
01:52:58,520 --> 01:53:00,319
and attaching your name to it can be that this

1971
01:53:00,439 --> 01:53:04,840
process it's true and we can, you know, move forward

1972
01:53:04,880 --> 01:53:06,640
because it's hard for us.

1973
01:53:06,760 --> 01:53:10,159
Speaker 7: So yeah, well, well yeah, I think I think it

1974
01:53:10,199 --> 01:53:11,479
will good.

1975
01:53:12,239 --> 01:53:15,479
Speaker 3: Israel is there ever do you do you ever see

1976
01:53:15,520 --> 01:53:22,079
a time that you might feel like you're willing to

1977
01:53:22,119 --> 01:53:27,279
discuss the more intimate details about what happened, uh to

1978
01:53:27,279 --> 01:53:33,399
to Bill and Lorraine. And the reason I'm asking that is,

1979
01:53:35,000 --> 01:53:40,479
you know, just as a cop, and I I am

1980
01:53:40,600 --> 01:53:46,159
very curious as to you know, the whole method of this.

1981
01:53:46,760 --> 01:53:50,560
And you know, it sounds to me like you're you're

1982
01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:54,760
a very organized guy, and maybe this is something better

1983
01:53:54,840 --> 01:53:59,439
for you know, the FBI, uh, you know, shrinks to

1984
01:53:59,439 --> 01:54:04,079
to way over. But but is that something you're gonna

1985
01:54:04,399 --> 01:54:06,000
You're gonna carry you to the grave or is there

1986
01:54:06,079 --> 01:54:10,680
some point where you might enlighten some of us about that.

1987
01:54:12,399 --> 01:54:19,560
Speaker 7: Well, there's for now a lot of the details that

1988
01:54:19,560 --> 01:54:24,840
that happened between well, for example, in the couriers.

1989
01:54:25,039 --> 01:54:27,119
Speaker 6: You know, those those details.

1990
01:54:27,279 --> 01:54:30,039
Speaker 7: I've given you your bottom line, you know, you know,

1991
01:54:31,199 --> 01:54:34,720
you know what my basic motivations are. And as far

1992
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:42,239
as my specific motivations, that's, uh, that's something I I

1993
01:54:42,279 --> 01:54:45,159
can't answer your question as far as when or if

1994
01:54:45,199 --> 01:54:48,640
I might be able to talk about that, I.

1995
01:54:48,439 --> 01:54:51,640
Speaker 3: Imagine, I mean, you're gonna have if you obviously have

1996
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:55,079
a lot of time to reflect on on your own

1997
01:54:55,119 --> 01:55:01,520
life and uh, and if I'm assuming correct, you did.

1998
01:55:02,119 --> 01:55:06,399
You didn't wake up one morning and decide that this

1999
01:55:06,560 --> 01:55:08,199
is what you wanted to do with your life.

2000
01:55:09,880 --> 01:55:10,079
Speaker 8: You know.

2001
01:55:10,159 --> 01:55:12,520
Speaker 3: As to whether you have any regrets or anything, or

2002
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:14,960
feel sorry or anything like that, that's not what I'm

2003
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:21,560
talking about. But as as somebody you know who's, like

2004
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:23,399
I said, I've been I've been in this business for

2005
01:55:23,439 --> 01:55:29,800
twenty eight years, and I'm very interested in people and

2006
01:55:29,840 --> 01:55:34,600
why they make the choices that they do. So, I mean,

2007
01:55:34,640 --> 01:55:39,039
I think that would be of a lot of value,

2008
01:55:39,800 --> 01:55:42,079
not just to me personally, but but to all of

2009
01:55:42,159 --> 01:55:47,039
us too, you know, to explore that at some point,

2010
01:55:47,159 --> 01:55:50,159
And I understand that's not now, but you know, at

2011
01:55:50,159 --> 01:55:52,720
some point I'd certainly be interested in that.

2012
01:55:53,840 --> 01:55:56,880
Speaker 7: Well, I think the short answer to what you're asking

2013
01:55:57,720 --> 01:56:01,439
me specifically, the way I think of it, I don't

2014
01:56:01,479 --> 01:56:04,720
really consider myself all that different or all that special

2015
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:10,119
from hundreds of thousands of other people. All you have

2016
01:56:10,159 --> 01:56:14,399
to do is type in a word search on any

2017
01:56:14,479 --> 01:56:17,680
given corn sight, and you know there's all kinds of

2018
01:56:17,680 --> 01:56:21,800
people who have fantasies about rape and bondage, and you know,

2019
01:56:22,039 --> 01:56:24,920
the kinds of things that I take to another level.

2020
01:56:25,520 --> 01:56:30,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I get that. And from what the as

2021
01:56:30,720 --> 01:56:33,800
it was explained to me is, you know, people early

2022
01:56:34,039 --> 01:56:41,680
early in life who can, through neglect or abuse, feel

2023
01:56:41,760 --> 01:56:45,199
that they don't have any control over their life develop

2024
01:56:45,800 --> 01:56:49,680
control fantasies over their life, and some of them involve

2025
01:56:50,079 --> 01:56:54,399
the violence and inflicting pain. I mean, so, I mean,

2026
01:56:54,439 --> 01:56:57,159
I don't. But the other side of the coin is

2027
01:56:57,720 --> 01:57:01,960
you're not I mean, you're not one hundred thousand other people.

2028
01:57:02,000 --> 01:57:06,319
You're you, and you know you've got specific reasons why

2029
01:57:06,640 --> 01:57:11,039
why you chose to do the things you get. You

2030
01:57:11,039 --> 01:57:13,479
get where I'm coming from.

2031
01:57:13,680 --> 01:57:18,279
Speaker 7: Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I am I

2032
01:57:18,319 --> 01:57:23,560
still disagree that there's I think with me, it's a

2033
01:57:23,600 --> 01:57:26,000
combination of things. It's not you know, it's not just

2034
01:57:26,079 --> 01:57:31,319
about the sexual fantasies and it's not it's definitely not

2035
01:57:31,479 --> 01:57:34,239
just about the money, and it's not just about the adrenaline.

2036
01:57:34,239 --> 01:57:37,960
But it's all those things together and that's what I

2037
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:42,880
get out of it. And once I started doing, you know,

2038
01:57:43,000 --> 01:57:46,920
once I did it.

2039
01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:48,840
Speaker 3: The practice makes perfect, like you said, right, Yeah, well

2040
01:57:49,199 --> 01:57:49,960
not so much that.

2041
01:57:50,159 --> 01:57:54,279
Speaker 7: It was more once I started, you know, and there

2042
01:57:54,359 --> 01:57:55,720
was nothing else like it.

2043
01:57:55,800 --> 01:57:59,840
Speaker 3: So yeah, I bet are you familiar with this guy

2044
01:58:00,119 --> 01:58:04,760
handsome from up in Alaska that that was labeled the

2045
01:58:04,840 --> 01:58:08,560
serial killer that used to capture people. And yeah, I

2046
01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:11,680
mean it happened right around this lake. Matt Muska, I mean,

2047
01:58:12,039 --> 01:58:14,159
is this a guy that I mean, you you ever

2048
01:58:15,199 --> 01:58:17,600
do you ever look into any of that stuff about

2049
01:58:17,720 --> 01:58:18,640
other people like that?

2050
01:58:19,520 --> 01:58:23,399
Speaker 7: I probably know every single serial killer that's ever been

2051
01:58:23,399 --> 01:58:23,960
written about.

2052
01:58:23,960 --> 01:58:26,880
Speaker 3: It's kind of a hobby line. So are you familiar

2053
01:58:26,880 --> 01:58:30,439
with the handsome guy? Yeah? Okay, is he still wied

2054
01:58:30,439 --> 01:58:32,159
by any chance? Yeah? I think so.

2055
01:58:32,439 --> 01:58:35,239
Speaker 7: He's a little before my time, but yeah, he's ensewered

2056
01:58:35,319 --> 01:58:35,720
up here.

2057
01:58:36,239 --> 01:58:39,920
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just curious. I mean, I'm curious, guy, I guess.

2058
01:58:40,039 --> 01:58:44,319
So once again, once again, I'll say finally and U

2059
01:58:45,000 --> 01:58:49,640
and I appreciate your time, all right, and our just.

2060
01:58:49,319 --> 01:58:50,960
Speaker 8: Just to wrap up from my end to things.

2061
01:58:51,399 --> 01:58:54,239
Speaker 10: You know, our commitment the letter, that is the commitment

2062
01:58:54,279 --> 01:58:57,920
that we put in the letter is is valid and

2063
01:58:58,119 --> 01:59:01,239
is concrete in a solid so long as you are cooperating.

2064
01:59:01,279 --> 01:59:03,960
I mean, it doesn't It's not like earlier when I

2065
01:59:03,960 --> 01:59:05,479
said our focus is obviously Vermont in New.

2066
01:59:05,479 --> 01:59:07,199
Speaker 8: York, which is what it is right now.

2067
01:59:07,760 --> 01:59:09,680
Speaker 10: It's not like if you give New York that suddenly

2068
01:59:09,720 --> 01:59:12,319
we're saying, okay, well we're writing to charge if you're

2069
01:59:12,359 --> 01:59:14,920
cooperating out there. You know, the commitment in a letter

2070
01:59:15,520 --> 01:59:16,319
remains intact.

2071
01:59:16,720 --> 01:59:17,840
Speaker 6: All right, I appreciate that.

2072
01:59:18,199 --> 01:59:18,479
Speaker 8: Okay.

2073
01:59:18,640 --> 01:59:20,479
Speaker 3: Do you think give us a little scared when you

2074
01:59:20,800 --> 01:59:26,560
when you tried to bold out of the courtroom us too? Yeah?

2075
01:59:26,720 --> 01:59:31,039
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, okay, guys, Well, thank you very much.

2076
01:59:30,920 --> 01:59:31,520
Speaker 8: For your time.

2077
01:59:32,119 --> 01:59:33,039
Speaker 3: All right, I appreciate it.

2078
01:59:33,079 --> 01:59:43,239
Speaker 5: By all right, So I think that at least help them.

2079
01:59:43,319 --> 01:59:48,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, any thoughts, Oh yeah, let's tretting that. I mean, yeah,

2080
01:59:48,520 --> 01:59:50,119
I had some concerns.

2081
01:59:49,600 --> 01:59:51,720
Speaker 3: But I don't I'm not. I'm not worried. Now.

2082
01:59:51,880 --> 01:59:53,880
Speaker 7: It sounds like they had already had the main interviews.

2083
01:59:53,960 --> 01:59:57,199
So yeah, they wanted to charge me. They could have

2084
01:59:57,239 --> 01:59:58,279
charged me already.

2085
01:59:58,039 --> 01:59:58,640
Speaker 3: Right exactly.

2086
01:59:59,159 --> 02:00:01,439
Speaker 9: And that just gives that you know that Murdy, the

2087
02:00:01,439 --> 02:00:03,319
lieutenant that you were talking to, is the one who's

2088
02:00:03,359 --> 02:00:07,720
been tormented for ten months with this being responsible for

2089
02:00:07,760 --> 02:00:10,880
this case and not having answers and just taking a

2090
02:00:10,920 --> 02:00:13,239
little bit of ownership in the investigation and getting to

2091
02:00:13,279 --> 02:00:16,319
talk to you and to satisfy you know, his investigation.

2092
02:00:16,600 --> 02:00:18,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that being said that, you know they are.

2093
02:00:18,960 --> 02:00:21,319
Before I got in here, I talked to the prosecutor there,

2094
02:00:21,359 --> 02:00:23,520
and you know, she did you know, express some concern

2095
02:00:23,560 --> 02:00:24,840
about the heat that's going to be on them. I

2096
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:26,760
don't know if you've seen these cases, you probably have,

2097
02:00:27,439 --> 02:00:30,399
but they start looking at, oh, the one year anniversary

2098
02:00:30,520 --> 02:00:32,760
and basically trying to make the cops look like fools

2099
02:00:32,800 --> 02:00:34,520
after the one year and now they're running around the

2100
02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:38,039
dump doing nothing, so that they do have some specific

2101
02:00:38,119 --> 02:00:40,239
concerns about that, and they just kind of in their

2102
02:00:40,279 --> 02:00:43,479
mind and certainly otherwise they just want to be assured

2103
02:00:43,520 --> 02:00:45,600
that they're doing it and they're taking the heat for

2104
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:48,119
good reason. And that's that's what she made clear to me.

2105
02:00:48,159 --> 02:00:51,159
And I think that's valid. I mean, obviously we were

2106
02:00:51,199 --> 02:00:51,920
in the same position.

2107
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:52,640
Speaker 5: We'd beat Oh.

2108
02:00:52,680 --> 02:00:55,840
Speaker 6: I don't blame them for one too. I mean the

2109
02:00:55,840 --> 02:00:58,119
easy thing up on their soapbox now and say we've

2110
02:00:58,159 --> 02:00:58,680
got it's all.

2111
02:00:58,800 --> 02:01:01,119
Speaker 3: But it would be the easy thing for right.

2112
02:01:01,000 --> 02:01:02,439
Speaker 6: And don't I understand that.

2113
02:01:02,520 --> 02:01:04,479
Speaker 3: But you know, my point is is.

2114
02:01:06,239 --> 02:01:08,319
Speaker 6: If you know they they at least they know at

2115
02:01:08,319 --> 02:01:09,039
some point.

2116
02:01:08,800 --> 02:01:11,960
Speaker 7: Now they'll get to do that, whereas before I gave

2117
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:14,359
them the immigration they may never have.

2118
02:01:14,359 --> 02:01:15,239
Speaker 3: Been sure to do that.

2119
02:01:15,319 --> 02:01:18,000
Speaker 4: There's that, but there's always people are very territorial and

2120
02:01:18,039 --> 02:01:19,840
they kind of want to you know, sort of bring

2121
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:22,119
charge themselves, and that's a lot for them to give up,

2122
02:01:22,239 --> 02:01:25,560
being a whole different side. So I think you know

2123
02:01:25,600 --> 02:01:28,560
that they are making a sacrifice here, and I understand that.

2124
02:01:28,600 --> 02:01:30,680
Speaker 5: You know, obviously it came from your mouth. But at

2125
02:01:30,680 --> 02:01:31,560
the end of the day, you.

2126
02:01:31,479 --> 02:01:33,840
Speaker 3: Know, they they they want.

2127
02:01:33,680 --> 02:01:34,840
Speaker 5: To have closure themselves.

2128
02:01:35,239 --> 02:01:37,960
Speaker 4: But you know, I think it's it's working out as

2129
02:01:37,960 --> 02:01:40,319
well as can be expected. You know that being said,

2130
02:01:40,319 --> 02:01:42,439
they're going to get some heat whenever it is next week?

2131
02:01:42,960 --> 02:01:45,079
Is that when the anniversary is? I think it's a

2132
02:01:46,479 --> 02:01:49,439
week from today, so, but you know, hopefully we'll have

2133
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:51,279
made some progress by then, you've had.

2134
02:01:51,119 --> 02:01:53,920
Speaker 5: Some time to answer your questions about being a letter

2135
02:01:55,439 --> 02:01:57,600
all right, right, any other questions for me?

2136
02:02:00,359 --> 02:02:00,960
Speaker 3: I don't think so.

2137
02:02:01,239 --> 02:02:03,199
Speaker 4: I think, uh, Kevin will be back next week and

2138
02:02:03,239 --> 02:02:05,359
I'll be gone, so uh you know, he may wanna

2139
02:02:05,439 --> 02:02:07,720
uh kind of chat with you a little bit about Yeah,

2140
02:02:07,760 --> 02:02:08,199
I think.

2141
02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:09,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, so.

2142
02:02:11,479 --> 02:02:13,880
Speaker 5: That's okay with you. We'll probably schedule at that point.

2143
02:02:14,279 --> 02:02:17,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, alright, some Yeah, I don't I'm sure what.

2144
02:02:18,319 --> 02:02:19,680
Speaker 5: BLUs your family be out of town.

2145
02:02:20,079 --> 02:02:24,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, schedule wolping outside of speech?

2146
02:02:27,439 --> 02:02:28,680
Speaker 3: Alright, thanks?

2147
02:02:29,840 --> 02:02:32,000
Speaker 2: Is it really need to hit the uh restaurant n Yeah,

2148
02:02:32,039 --> 02:02:50,920
if they did, yeah,