Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production. As you know,
we are celebrating my tenth year in podcasting and we're
capping that celebration off with a three day event here
in the Berkshires over the weekend of September twenty fifth.
There will be studio sessions, live shows, a Bravo town hall,
Berkshire activities like foraging, wine tasting, museum visits and more,
and tons of special guests. Will do the Karen and
Ellen Letters Live starring Amanda Jacobson from Wine and Crime,
Tawny plattis famous renowned voice actress, and Chris Brayton from
the More Gooder Than podcast. I'll be doing a very special,
first time ever live show of the Pact with special
guest Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed. We'll do a
panel discussion on Unsafe Spaces featuring me, Kaz, Charlie Wirrel
from Crime Lines, and Justin and Aaron from Generation Why.
There will even be a live episode of Our Americana
and a very cool Playlist by TCB episode featuring me
and the entire research team. Guests, we'll get to check
out my new speakeasy, the green Room, tour the studio
and get elbow deep in the research process. This is
a once in a lifetime event where you'll get to
enjoy the berkshers, share fun activities with the podcast hosts
you love the most, and really dig into podcasting and
all the shows I have produced along with my friends.
Book your tickets today by clicking the link in the
show notes. And if that doesn't work for you, why
don't you think about? If not now when? For example,
we are going to the Galapagos Islands January eleventh through seventeenth.
Haven't you always wanted to go? And if not now,
when will you go? And wouldn't you go during the
winter here in the States to escape to the warmth
with like minded new friends who love true crime bullshit
as much as you do, but also love the experience
of travel, seeing animals and getting away from it all.
These Trova trips have made me lifelong friends. They are
such a great way to meet new people, get out
of your world and shake things up. And like I said,
if you're not going to go to the Galapagos now,
will you ever book your trip today by clicking the
link in the show notes.
Speaker 2: Especially you Cepaine with the FBI. Today's Friday June. First
time's approximately nine fifteen am by my watch. Following the
will be a interview with Aeriel Keys at the FBI
office and Anchorage with me, OBTFO, Jeff Bell, and AUSA
Frank Russo.
Speaker 3: Is real? How do you know?
Speaker 4: All right?
Speaker 3: Isra?
Speaker 2: We're gonna run through kind of what's become our standard
stuff here. You may know it better than I do.
Let me know if I mess anything up there. I
know we covered some of this stuff at the jail,
but we're gonna run through it again quickly here. When
we came over and picked you up this morning, did
we interrupt a meeting with your attorney?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Okay, and you're here voluntarily?
Speaker 3: Is that correct? Yes?
Speaker 2: You understand we can't discuss anything to do with the
Samantha Colding case, and if you do, then we'll have
to stop the interview and we'll take you back to jail.
You understand that.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Run through your Miranda rights. I know we've done this
a number of times. Before we ask any questions, you
must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say can be used against you in court.
Do you have the right to talk to a lawyer?
For advice before we ask any questions. You have the
rights to have a lawyer with you during questioning if
you cannot afford a lawyer, when be appointed for you
before any questioning if you wish, And if you decide
to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you have
the right to stop answering at any time. Do you
understand these rights as I've explained them to you.
Speaker 3: Yes, okay.
Speaker 2: And with that explanation in mind, are you willing to
waive these rights and then talk to us here today?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: I know you've got at least one, possibly two stand
by attorneys appointed in this matter, that being Rich Pertner
and Jacqueline Walsh. Do you want either of those two
attorneys or any other attorney present today?
Speaker 3: No? Okay.
Speaker 2: Are you on any medications or other substances?
Speaker 3: No? Okay?
Speaker 2: And are you having any difficulty understanding where you're at
or what's going on?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Alrighty, I think that covers it unless I miss someone?
Speaker 3: No? All right?
Speaker 4: Okay, Israel just want a touch phase before we call
Romant and on this is Jeff called and expressed that
you know, obviously you're not prepared to talk about.
Speaker 5: The New York victim you very New York.
Speaker 4: Right, then you have some questions that you still you
cleared up on your rant, right, Is there any questions
that we can answer to you about that when we
go into Vermont?
Speaker 6: No, Uh, the main issues I'm.
Speaker 7: Dealing with on h on other things that you know,
the other victims that we haven't really talked about, is.
Speaker 6: Some things I was having.
Speaker 7: My investigators look into, and uh, like I'm still waiting
to hear back on my status with the marshals. But
that's yeah, it's all still.
Speaker 3: Pending at this time as far as I know, So Okay, Yeah,
I just I don't know.
Speaker 7: I am still trying to to uh to figure out
if there's anything that can be done about any of that.
Speaker 3: I guess and then you know, I mean.
Speaker 7: One way or the other, it's gonna we'll be able
to talk about that stuff. But I just want to
find out what my options are as far as a
couple other.
Speaker 5: Things first, A couple of things on that I understand.
Speaker 4: You know, you certainly have a right and can should
consult with whatever you want on this. If there's anything
you if you have any questions about things that we
can sort of get answers to. We're happy to do that,
especially like if you're saying there's something about the marshals
and you know, we can obviously ask them whatever, you know,
questions you.
Speaker 7: Have, Yeah, and I I mean, I don't I'm hesitant
to go that route as far as like trading information
for what what status they put me on, because I
mean I will if I have to, if I think
it'll work, But for now I'm waiting.
Speaker 6: To hear back.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I don't know there's anything we can
do about that kind of stuff, quite frankly, because the
marshals are very uh, you know, they're very territorial about security,
as you probably can guess.
Speaker 5: And then it's even more it's a little more.
Speaker 4: Complicated than that because the marshals literally just rent space
from the state right in the facility of the Department
of Corrections. So in some senses they have their own rules,
but then they also have to live in the Department
of Corrections.
Speaker 5: Rules, and so there's a couple of entities that you know.
Speaker 6: That's the impression I'm getting.
Speaker 7: And I just I haven't heard back from all the
parties involved yet, so I.
Speaker 4: Could just tell you just from you know, I have
it dealt with innate situation. For that, it's a headache,
and you know, there's really not a lot we can
do about it. If they have real security concerns, they
basically say butt outs of our business.
Speaker 5: So right, but you know, you never never can tell them.
Speaker 4: So if there's anything you need with you know, from
muscle respect to that, we can certainly try to get answers.
The second part of that is, yeah, I mean I
understand what you're saying is, look, you just need to
kind of dot your eyes across your t's on the
New York thing, correct.
Speaker 3: Right, And you know, I think we'll make that.
Speaker 5: I can make that clear to Verman.
Speaker 4: I mean I told them basically when they relate to me,
you didn't want to talk about anything else because they
always want a status of where are you on other
things because that's part of their letter. You know, they
get a little bit antsy, so to speak, and they
have their own reasons for that.
Speaker 5: Maybe they'll express it to you on the phone.
Speaker 4: So I don't want to speak for them, but you know,
just just know that they obviously have some concerns in
that regard. I can do my best to reassure them
that it's you know, you're going to live up to
your end of the deal, but you know, just sort
of as a as a word of warning when we
talk to them that may they make them up.
Speaker 7: I mean, I don't know, I don't know what they're
going to ask I do have. I've been doing a
lot of thinking about this, you know, since we discussed
having this conference call with them. I have some concerns
as to why they would even want to talk to
me about the Courier case, considering that we've already had
extensive interviews.
Speaker 6: On it, you know, with the FBI, and it's all
been recorded.
Speaker 7: So I'm a little bit leary about what their motivations
are and asking me additional questions and what what they
plan to do with that information that they get.
Speaker 6: So I just I'm not I don't know.
Speaker 7: I know, we're dealing with like different jurisdiction issues here,
and I don't know, like what what the rules are
the rules game rules are going to be as far
as the information that they get off of this conference
call versus the information they got from you, you know,
like secondhand information.
Speaker 3: So I mean, what I can tell you what let me.
Speaker 4: Let me tell you exactly, because I've had this conversation
with them too, because you know, I'm concerned about that
because we don't want to mess up things.
Speaker 6: We're working on other crimes, right.
Speaker 4: So the first thing, you know, they said is, look,
you know, we have to give this house back to
the Courier family because it's I don't know, somehow in
foreclosure and they're pain on it and they've been maintaining
it as a crime scene, and so that they're just
incurring an enormous amount of debt that they're gonna it's
going under water.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 4: So from that perspective, they want to you know, make
sure I think primarily, like you know, they all want
to have comfort that you're the right guy on this,
right one.
Speaker 7: So they can release the house and they don't have
to worry about continuing their investigation exactly.
Speaker 4: And hearing it from us is one thing, and you'll
be listening to tape is another thing.
Speaker 5: But asking you know, questions yourselves.
Speaker 4: I think that that helps them number one too, you know,
I mean, and their perspective is, you know, they don't
know what's gonna happen with this, and you know, certainly
if things go sideways and things go down the tubes,
they want to just sort of make sure they've confirmed
what you've said. You know, right now, they're on our
side on this, I have no doubt about that. But
you know, just in case they never, you know, they never,
you know, can be careful enough. And number three, let
me tell you this other thing I think I touched
on at once is it's one thing you know, when
I guess you hear about, oh, you know, this is
what happened in your case, Like if these investigators they've
been working it, they've been wondering, and it haunts them,
you know, it does. I've had a case like that,
always have the wonder, you know, what happened, And I
think it helps them ebe psychologically to kind of ask
the questions themselves that they've been wanting to ask since
day one, since they've been trying to you know, be
orize what happened here.
Speaker 5: So sometimes it's just like, you know.
Speaker 4: Hey, let's all play together type of thing. I think
it helps keep them, you know, on board. When they
get to ask these questions, they feel like they're engaged,
they feel like they're more part of the team, which
they are, you know, as long as we're going with
that letter, right, I have no concerns about them. I've
been talking to the attorney over there, Mary Morrisey. I
talked to her right before we got in here. The
people in that room, I think we can even clarify
we're all going to be sort of bound by that letter.
And you can make that clear if you want the outset,
you figure out who's in the room. But everybody in there,
we've been assured. You know that they're not going off
the deep end. Otherwise we'd never be doing this.
Speaker 5: We don't want to.
Speaker 4: Screw up right.
Speaker 2: Anything that works.
Speaker 7: Yeah, No, I can understand like the house, the crime
scene and releasing that that makes sense to me.
Speaker 6: The rest of it, I'm a little bit leery about, like.
Speaker 7: If there if they're going to ask me specific questions,
they're basically going to have me recap the crime and
the motive and you know what happened blow by blow.
I don't I don't know if I want to get
into all that. I because I don't know if I
trust them with that information. But if they just want
to if they just want confirmation that I'm the right guy,
if they just want details on the house or the
crime scene, like the house itself, without going into what
happened in there and.
Speaker 4: The vehicle with another thing, you know, describe the vehicle
that kind of thing like colors in the house.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It just kind of helps them, I think, and I
know Officer Bell talk to them just to make sure
because they give us an out lot. You know, we
basically said, here's what we you know, we think is
probably relevant for you, and here's what we think in
Igra will be uncomfortable with. So it's not like they're
just going off on their own right and doing this.
And we told them quite frankly, hey, you know you
can ask the questions all you want, you may not
get all the answers.
Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 3: That's fine.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I just want to And we told them that
you're pretty clear.
Speaker 9: If you don't want to answer something, you're pretty much
gonna say yeah, okay, it's bad.
Speaker 3: So they don't have any expectations of you know.
Speaker 5: All right, doesn't mean they won't try.
Speaker 3: I mean we've tried, all right.
Speaker 6: The investigator just wants some owner have been his own investigation.
As the investigator had heard all the interviews.
Speaker 2: He's listened to one I think in its entirety, which
is one that we did several.
Speaker 3: Weeks more, just you and I, and.
Speaker 9: So they know the I don't think they're going to
ask you detailed questions because they know them, okay, and some.
Speaker 5: Of the other things.
Speaker 4: And that's why if they're asking questions that are you know,
the things you talked about before, they may not have
heard the other ones because you talked about a bunch
of different things, and those right there know what they
have access to over there. I think I know they
had access to this one because you know, that was
sort of the time when we gotten.
Speaker 9: So they don't all they basically had to sit there
with an FBI agent, and they would let them listen
to that one.
Speaker 3: They don't have access to anything else.
Speaker 6: Right now, right, that's okay, all right, all right, makes sense.
Speaker 5: So who is Lieutenant Murdy? Is the guy who's gonna
be asking the questions?
Speaker 3: We can call I think it's m U R T
I E.
Speaker 6: Murdy so we can identify you. I don't it's a two.
Speaker 3: You got to do nine to one, yeah.
Speaker 5: Six five two.
Speaker 3: I guess you don't want to do nine one? Yeah,
you do.
Speaker 5: Six five two three nine? Out there you go.
Speaker 10: You can marry more to the story's office. I'm not
a aable to take a call right now. If you're
a good message, I'll try to get back to as
soon as I can. Thank you very much, and have
a nice day.
Speaker 5: Call.
Speaker 3: Was gonna leave one saying okay, this was Ankridge. You
missed our call.
Speaker 5: Okay, Hey, Mary's Frank.
Speaker 4: We're trying to call you on the desk line.
Speaker 5: Okay, we'll call right now.
Speaker 6: Okay, be that Lucky Morsey.
Speaker 4: Hey Mary, it's Frank Russo, Jeff Bell, Steve Payne, and
the Israel Keys here.
Speaker 8: Thank you.
Speaker 10: I'm here in my office in Vermont with Lieutenant George Murdy,
who is in charge of the Courier investigation for the
Essex Police Department.
Speaker 4: Okay, and just to clarify one thing that mister Keys
was concerned about before we got in here, I just
wanted to confirm that, uh, basically, the uh you know,
the letter that he saw last meeting, I mean that
applies to Lieutenant Murdy too.
Speaker 5: You guys are all under one umbrella, so to speak.
Speaker 10: That is correct, the letter that I sent or the
provided to you that I.
Speaker 8: Believe you've given to mister Keith.
Speaker 10: But what buyd Chittman County, including all of the departments
within Chipman County. How our system works is that we
don't have town prosecutors. We have a county prosecutor. So
my office is the prosecutor.
Speaker 8: For chitten County.
Speaker 10: Is nobody else to file charges in Chindon County but
us and the Attorney General's office and the limited circumstances.
But they're not part of this investigation. They don't know
and been unaware of this.
Speaker 4: Okay, fair enough, there's really all your questions before we
get started.
Speaker 3: Now, I'm good.
Speaker 4: The one thing you should know is that obviously Lieutenant
Murdy also has been spent some majority of his time
at the dumb site. He could probably give you a
better picture of what's going on there if you want.
At the end, you know, he sort of knows what
he's dealing with out.
Speaker 9: There, and maybe you guys just introduced yourself to him
and let you know is let him know who you are.
Speaker 8: Yes, my name is Mary Morrisey. I'm a prosecutor in
chitten And County.
Speaker 10: I'm the Chief Deputy.
Speaker 8: Of Major Crimes.
Speaker 10: I've been working on this case with Lieutenant Murdy since
the morning that the Curviers were reported missing last June.
So I've been a signed to this case since that
day and I've been in the office for over taketeen years.
Speaker 3: Mister Keys, should I call you Israel or would you
rather call you mister Keys Israel? Okay, and call me George.
I'm a detective lieutenant at the Essex Police Department in
charge of the Criminal Investigation Unit. Our police department is
as you might imagine a small town. We have twenty
seven officers in our police department. I've been there twenty
eight years and frankly, I have never seen anything like this.
So if I don't appear to have everything totally at
my command. Please understand that I have been the case
manager of the Courier case since June, and I have
some questions regarding the house and the car that from
what I understand and communicating with with Frank and uh
and Jeff and Steve, they tell me that you're willing
to help me corroborate some details and get some information
from you that will let me know that obviously you
are the person who has been in the house and
in the car, and you know things that nobody else
would know unless they have been in that position. Is
that correct? Yes, that's correct. Okay, thank you. I mean,
do you want to start out by hearing about commentry
or are you interested in that? But yeah, that's yeah,
we can start with that. Okay, let's see today will
conclude our fourth week up there. They, as you probably know,
they demolished the house that you had referred to in
late October, and obviously it wasn't until April that that
that we found out that this had been the I
guess the the place where those people were left. So
fortunately the landfilling commentry, which is gigantic, as kept they
keep engineered records of where all their trash goes, and
I mean, this is stuff I never thought of when
I thought of dump. But they take aerial photographs, they
do GPS so and the dates, the probable dates that
that trash were dumped, had been recorded and placed in
record as to a specific area where they would be. Now,
having said that they keep good records, the area that's
possible is at least the size of a football field,
and it is. It is probably a good six feet deep.
They mix in all sorts of nasty stuff to help
decomposition in that area. And what we have to do
is we have to rely on heavy equipment to dig
all this stuff up, lay it out on a flat area,
and we have to go through it with rakes basically,
and it is it's a very very it's like an
archaeological dig sort of, and it kind of is in
a lot of ways. We had a forensic anthropologist who
work for the Smithsonian Institute up there advising us on
the best way to go about this. And we at
this point todate, after four weeks, have probably cleared from
like twenty to twenty five percent of that area. So,
I mean, could could we find those people tomorrow? Well,
I mean the next Monday. Yeah, but it could also
take another six weeks. So you know, it's if you
can get a picture. It's a it's not a great
job to have, but you know, obviously it's something that
needs to get done, all right.
Speaker 6: I appreciate that.
Speaker 3: Any any questions about that or anything else that before
I start asking you about the house and stuff.
Speaker 7: How many people do you have working sorting through the
trash that's dug up, and who are are they? Are
they with your local police department or are they specifically
trained for that or what. I'm just curious how many
people know what's being searched for.
Speaker 3: And we we have people from from my agency. Probably
at any given time, I have two people that I
can put up there. Usually it's myself and another person,
and have one person that I can rotate it. And
now the Vermont State Police usually puts about five people
into that mix, and the FBI puts in about twenty people.
So we have probably twenty five people going in a
line through the through the trash that's been laid out.
What they are told at the briefing is that they
are searching for the remains of the couriers that you know,
that's that's basically it. So they're not given case details specifically.
You know, occasionally some of the folks have been involved
from the FBI and may have been involved in other
aspects of the investigation, so they, you know, they might
have more detail, but I think everything's being kept pretty quiet.
My understanding from talking to Jeff and Steve is one
of your major concerns about your name coming up in
the media or anything to expose you to, you know,
to the connection to this. So I think we're certainly
well aware of that here in in our office, but
I think the FBI is trying to keep a tight
lid on that even in their own office as well.
Speaker 7: All Right, I appreciate that, and I don't have any
other questions about it.
Speaker 3: Okay, Now, I did listen to your interview that was
recorded on May eighth, where you go into most of
the details about going into the house and and taking
those people away and going up to the farmhouse. But
you know, I guess, I guess every time you hear something,
it sparks another four or five questions. So please bear
with me if I ask something you feel you've already answered.
Now you've you mentioned in your interview that you said
you checked out the neighborhood where the house was prior
to I guess, to gaining entry to that. Can you
explain a little bit more about what you meant by
checking checking out the neighborhood and was it in daylight
or was it just before you you actually made entry.
Speaker 7: I was walking around the general neighborhood and getting a layout,
and it was it was just prior. It was probably
between the hours of about nine pm and the time
that I actually went into the house.
Speaker 3: Okay, it so it sounds probably was just getting dark
or was it dark at the time it was dark?
Do you remember the weather?
Speaker 6: It was raining? It was raining really hard that night.
Speaker 3: Okay? Was it raining when you checked it out, because.
Speaker 7: I believe the at the time that I had chosen
that neighborhood, the rain had stopped and it was just
really damp out, really wet.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, And you know, knowing knowing that neighborhood,
Uh it was. It's I don't know. I guess it
was a little surprising to me how how little room
uh you know, between houses. Uh does that concern you
at all?
Speaker 7: Well, it did concern me. I I was after I
had picked out that house. I stayed in the in
the backyard for several hours, probably at least a couple hours,
waiting till the rest of the neighborhood had gone to sleep.
Speaker 3: Okay, Now had you had you seen those two people
at any time when you were checking out the neighborhood
or anything any time before you entered the house?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 3: Okay, So so it's like when you were Okay, no
means no, So I guess so, I guess you didn't
see them at the like the pharmacy, or that the
at home well actually wasn't a home depot a low
but you know these are. They're some of their favorite
places to go to. So I didn't know if you'd
seen them then and connected them to the house.
Speaker 7: No, I it was the The house was picked on
the basis of the design of the house, not on
my assumption who might be inside.
Speaker 3: Really, Okay.
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Speaker 3: And I know you'd been in Vermont at least one
other time. Uh, have you ever started formulating your plan
the fact that back as early as in or is
this something that I wondered if you were familiar with
this neighborhood from the from your prior visit to Vermont.
Speaker 7: I had never been in that specific neighborhood before I was.
I'm familiar with the entire area in general, but not
not that neighborhood specifically.
Speaker 3: Now you have family or friends are in the ansect area. No, okay,
let's see when you were in the backyard you mentioned
a swimming pool. Are there other items in the backyard
that you could tell me that that you remember that
would corroborate that you knew his backyard.
Speaker 7: There was a storage shed in the back left hand
corner of the yard.
Speaker 5: There was a.
Speaker 7: It was a pretty secluded backyard. I believe it had
either an allier road access on the back and.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 7: Fairly well secluded from the neighbors on either side.
Speaker 3: There were I.
Speaker 7: Believe it was plastic patio furniture that was on the
back deck. It was an above ground swimming pool, so
they had a pretty elaborate deck set up and sliding
glass door on the back and I used one of
the plastic patio chairs to get into the garage window.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so you moved it around to the side
of the house where the garage window is.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 7: There was a fan, a fan running for ventilation in
that window, and that's how I got into the garage.
Speaker 3: Okay, Now do you remember what you did with that fan?
Did you put it inside the garage or did you
put it outside? Would you do with it? I believe
I set it.
Speaker 7: I think I had turned it off and I set
it inside, and then I believe when I left the house,
I put it back in the window and pretty much
everything set up the way it was when I found it.
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, now in the garage, Well, let me see
if I got this straight. You were in the backyard
for a couple of hours or or saw a fairly
lengthy period of time, just kind of waiting to see
what happens. At some point in your interview, you mentioned
neighbors coming or a neighbor coming out. Was that when
you were in the garage or when you were in
the backyard.
Speaker 7: I was in the backyard, I believe when I when
I started noticing that that neighbor was awaken, that they
were coming out.
Speaker 3: Okay, now is it? Is it the same side of
the street, on the house, on the same side as
the garage, right? Yeah, okay, all right, gotcha, because I
know they're Did you see anybody else in the neighborhood?
Speaker 7: There's just like the only person at the time that
that was the only person I saw. They they had
motion activated security lights, and they had a large dog
that was being let out of the house from time
to time, and I believe it was a Golden Retriever
or something. And there was a younger, middle aged guy
who was coming out to smoke every now and then.
And I had already decided that I was going through
the garage window, but I was concerned about him coming
out when I was actually going in that that way,
and so I remember I was I timed it so
that I either went in through the garage, either right
after he had gone back into the house after a
smoke break, or I had timed it to where it
seemed like he had gone to bed wasn't up anymore.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 7: I don't remember exactly when I first went.
Speaker 6: Into the garage, but.
Speaker 7: I remember once I was in the garage and unlocked
the back door, I held off for quite a while
before actually breaking into the house.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 7: I I unlocked the back door to the to the garage,
the man door that went into the backyard, and after.
Speaker 3: That I was able to come and.
Speaker 7: Go from the garage without having to go through the window.
Speaker 3: Okay, uh, Now when you're in the garage, their cars
they're right. Yeah. And did you notice anything unusual in
the garage itself?
Speaker 7: No, I mean it was dark in the garage. It
seemed like a pretty typical garage. There was, Yeah, I didn't.
I had a light with me, but I wasn't. I
wasn't using it that much because because there are still
people up around and I.
Speaker 3: Don't know stuff. Could you see out the garage door, I.
Speaker 6: Don't remember if it had windows in it or not.
Speaker 3: And we we So you mentioned a crowbar that you
took off a foot to smash the window leading into
the house. Is that correct?
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was about a twenty four inch crowbar.
Speaker 7: I think it was hanging on the back wall of
the garage, to the left of the man door.
Speaker 3: David, did you were there any other crowbars there that
you recalled?
Speaker 7: It seems like there were a few other tools around.
There may have been another crowbar, hammer or something.
Speaker 3: I don't know, all right, did you try to fry
the door at all to gain entry or did you
just use the window?
Speaker 7: Well, it had a storm It had a storm door
that was locked on on the exterior of the of
the standard door, and I was able to to pry
the lock of the storm door with my knife, and
I was I was thinking that I was actually surprised
that the other door was locked as well, but it
was a dead bolt lock, so I knew there wasn't
There wasn't any way I was going to be able
to to jimmy that lock without without breaking the windows.
Speaker 3: So okay, So so that's something a little new to
me that that you I talked that when you got
into the window in through the window into the garage,
that you were able to just unlock the door going
out into the backyard. Uh yeah, okay, So I don't
understand which door you you pried with your knife. There
was a storm door.
Speaker 6: Between the kitchen and the garage.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's the one year you were able to pry
with the knight.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they had it locked.
Speaker 7: It was a a pretty low quality lock on those
storm doors, gotcha.
Speaker 3: Okay, now I understand what you're telling me is you're
able to pry the door on the doorno lock. And
then it was also a dead full lock attached to that, right.
Speaker 7: And once I discovered that there was a there was
a dead bolt lock on the on the kitchen door,
and I knew I would have to break the window.
I knew it was going to be loud, so I
decided to wait another hour or two and to make
sure that all the neighbors were asleeper inside.
Speaker 6: And and that's why I ended.
Speaker 7: Up unlocking the back door of the garage and just
hanging out in the backyard for a while till I
got a little bit later.
Speaker 3: Okay, And all right, so so you get into the house,
you put the light on it like as you going
into the house, or do you can you like I'm wondering,
can you see things at that time or or do
you just make a rush rout down the hallway.
Speaker 6: I had my headlamp on.
Speaker 3: You mentioned that you were wearing a mask.
Speaker 6: I probably was, though, just over my mouth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I'm just a little curious as to, I
guess knowing what your intentions were, uh, why you felt
you needed a mask.
Speaker 7: I I was mostly had the mask on for the
time that I was in the backyard in case. I
don't know, if someone spotted me or someone had cameras.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I just I just once I decided
to see Now, can you tell me what you what
you recalled about the house? Uh, just kind of describe
you inside. Yeah, there was.
Speaker 7: Immediately through the door from the garage into the kitchen.
I believe there was a refrigerator right there, and then
you had to take a little bit of a left
to go through the kitchen.
Speaker 3: And then.
Speaker 7: I knew it would I knew it would be pretty
much a straight shot down the hallway to the bedroom.
I already knew what bedroom they were in, so so
I was only checking briefly, like looking left and right
into the rooms as I passed them on the way
to the bedroom to make sure there wasn't anybody else
in those rooms. And I believe it was a three
bedroom house.
Speaker 3: But when you when you bedroom, were they in.
Speaker 7: Well as you were if you're standing on the street
facing their house, they were in the bedroom in the
front right hand corner.
Speaker 3: Okay. You you mentioned that it's a three bedroom house,
and you're you're correct. So were they both in the
same bedroom? Yes? Okay, because it did after you you'd tied
him up or incapacitated whatever. Uh you mentioned that you
go through the house. Is it is that, Craig? Yes? Okay.
Did you go into all the other rooms?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 3: And did you go downstairs?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 3: Okay? So you never even looked into the basement.
Speaker 6: I honestly, I was not even aware there was a basement.
Speaker 3: Okay. Do you recall going into the bathroom.
Speaker 7: I'm sure I went in the bathroom. I don't really
remember anything.
Speaker 3: And now that I'm kind of recalling you to the bathroom,
there anything stick out about it that it seemed a
little unusual?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 3: No, you remember color by any chance? No? I don't.
Speaker 7: I don't remember the color of the bathroom. I believe
the only reason I looked into the bathroom.
Speaker 3: Was I may have.
Speaker 7: I may have checked the medicine cabinet or something, but
I don't I don't remember.
Speaker 3: In your interview you mentioned that they might have had
some prescriptions like byke it In or a Percoset or
something like that. I mean, does that ring a bell
with you? Yeah? And you you take that, you take
those medications.
Speaker 7: I don't take them personally. No, I took some from
the house. Yes, would you.
Speaker 3: Would you sell them or what? What? I guess it
doesn't really matter, But would you mind telling me? U? Really?
I guess.
Speaker 6: I guess my thought was that I might sell them.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 7: I don't really do that kind of stuff. I just
grabbed them because I because they were there, And I
mean I was, I was grabbing a lot of different stuff.
Speaker 3: So okay, and when you're I never mind that. Okay.
So let's so they're in the they're in the fire bedroom,
and so now there you mentioned that they were on
the bed in your interview and they're I guess trusted
up with with these cable ties. Yes, okay, And so
at this point you feel comfortable to go through the
rest of the house, and you mentioned grabbing some suitcases.
Do you recall where you got those suitcases from?
Speaker 7: I believe they were in the bedroom directly joining the
bedroom that they were sleeping in. I believe they were
in a closet and there was a chest of drawers
and a lot of other miscellaneous household items in that room.
Speaker 3: You remember there was one one item there that was
fairly large, and I wondered if you remembered what that
was next to the bed.
Speaker 6: Next to the bed in the room they were sleeping
in the room. No, I don't. I remember it was
a crowded bedroom.
Speaker 3: And okay, but tell me this. You mentioned finding military
documents from Bill Currier. Is that is that the room
you found him in? Yes, okay, and where were they?
Speaker 7: They weren't documents, but I think I did see some
uniform patches or maybe some insignia and metals that were
in chest of drawers there that I went through.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, all right, and that's the same you're
telling me that's the same room where the suitcases were, right, yeah,
I believe. So, Okay, Now, Lorraine's lingerie, that is where's that?
Speaker 7: I believe I got that from a couple of different
spots in the house. I know I got some of
it from that same chest of drawers in that adjoining.
Speaker 3: Bedroom, okay, anywhere else.
Speaker 7: Possibly from the room they were sleeping in as well.
Speaker 3: Okay, and you put those in the suitcase.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I put everything in the suitcases.
Speaker 3: All right. Let's see bear with me for a minute.
There's a room, the room on the other side of
the hall. Yeah, tell me what you remember about that room.
Speaker 7: There was a bird cage in it with a blanket
over it. Was there a bed in there? I don't
remember if there was a bed or a large desk. Again,
it was a crowded room. It seems like there were
quite a few quite a bit of stuff in it.
And I just did I I remember, I got a
quick idea of what might be in that room, and
I didn't I didn't really go through it that much.
I didn't really figure there would be anything in there.
Speaker 3: So, okay, so tell me this you're looking it tells me.
I mean, you've already got this worked out in your head,
and you know what you're looking for when you go
into the house. So I mean, by by the time
you go through these other places, have you already found
what you wanted to find or are you exploring for
things that might interest you or do you already know
what you're what you're looking for?
Speaker 7: Well, everything else that I took was pretty inconsequential.
Speaker 6: Anything else I was looking for was I already.
Speaker 7: I already had an idea of the things I might
find in the house, which is why I didn't really
go through it that thoroughly. If I had had the
impression that there were more things of value in the house,
I would have gone through it more thoroughly. But everything
I found pointed me to the direction that I wasn't
going to find anything else of interest to me.
Speaker 6: So the main reason I was there for was, you know,
was for them.
Speaker 3: So that's not yeah, okay, Now I know you're a carpenter.
Do do you build houses? Yes? Okay, So I mean
you know, basically style a house and what you can
expect to find from a construction aspect and all that stuff.
So it sounds to me like nothing in the house
really surprised you.
Speaker 7: No, I don't remember seeing anything unusual. It seemed like
a pretty typical ranch style house to me.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, And and in your interview you mentioned
that you got jewelry that that wasn't didn't look like
valuable jewelry. Uh? You you actually you got a couple
of shell phones? Is that right? Yes? And what did
you did you take? Like the guy's wallet or the
woman's handbook or any pocketbook or anything like that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there was a large It seemed like all of
their financial cards and I identifications and everything. It seems
like all that was in one wallet.
Speaker 3: Okay, and that's the one that you took away with you.
Did you ask them about how much money they had
in the wallet and the pin numbers and all that?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 3: I did, okay? And what did they tell you?
Speaker 7: I got my main objective.
Speaker 6: My main concern wasn't with how much money they had
in their accounts.
Speaker 3: It was to make sure that.
Speaker 7: They had given me the correct ten number for their card.
Speaker 3: Okay. Did you ever try to access that? No? I
don't think so. To keep it, well, is that one
of the things you got rid of? But was the
New Hampshire or did you get rid of that in
the dumpster at the place you were staying.
Speaker 7: No, the card, the card and the phones I didn't
get rid of till New Hampshire.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, let's talk about their car. If if you
don't mind, you need a break or anything. No, I'm fine,
Am I you got? Are you okay with it so far? Yeah?
Speaker 6: This is fine? O.
Speaker 3: Good. So you know, obviously they weren't driving a Bentley.
Uh you would you mentioned that it's a it's a
Saturn and two door four door?
Speaker 6: I believe it was a four door Sedan.
Speaker 3: Okay, And I think you mentioned accessing the trunk. So
did you do any preparation to the car before you
put them in or had you already checked out the car? Yeah?
Speaker 6: I had.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I checked out the car pretty thoroughly before I
even decided to break into the house.
Speaker 3: Okay, Now, did you adjust seats or anything like that?
I'm assuming that you knew where you wanted to put
the woman where you wanted to put the guy.
Speaker 6: Yes, did you?
Speaker 3: Did you? Did you adjust the seats to to make
that happen? Or yeah?
Speaker 6: I did have to adjust the seats I think.
Speaker 3: Okay. And so it's these people are tied up, but
I'm assuming hands and feet. Do you cut their feet
loose or something to make it so they can walk
out to the car.
Speaker 7: Their feet weren't tied when I walked them out to
the car.
Speaker 3: Now, Okay? Did they have anything on their feet?
Speaker 7: Not until I had them in the car.
Speaker 3: Okay, No, I don't mean tying. My thought is you
broke the window to get into that house, and now
you're going to take these folks out to the car.
Did they just walk barefoot across this broken glass? No?
Speaker 6: I think I let them put on some slippers.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right? And so I mean, am I corrected
that their feet were tied up and that you must
have had to untie them to enable them to walk
to the car.
Speaker 6: No, their feet. I don't think their feet were ever
tied when they were on the bed.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, just just their arms.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there was.
Speaker 3: I went through the house really fast.
Speaker 7: I I would go from room to room and I
got once I had them tied up, I went through
the house pretty quickly to make sure I hadn't missed anybody.
Speaker 3: And now you you mentioned taking the lingerie away any
other items like makeup or stuff like that. Did you
did you take any of that stuff?
Speaker 6: There were?
Speaker 7: I mean there there was quite a bit of thing,
quite a few things I threw into the suitcases.
Speaker 3: I I you know, I guess I don't know any
other way to ask questions, but to be to be blunt,
I'm assuming that that those particular items play into what
what your intentions are towards towards these folks sexually. Uh,
when when you get to where you want to go?
Am I? Am I on track with that? Or are
these just souvenirs? No?
Speaker 6: That's that's pretty much the gist of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, all right? Uh do you mind if I
just I'm kind of curious. Do you dress Lorraine and
in her lingerie or do you have some other purpose
for it? Uh? I don't know if I want to
go into that. All right, fair enough? Hey, any anything
you want to tell me about is is great. So
we'll move on. Thinking about the car. You you get
into the car, you put them in the car. You
get into the car, and in your interview you say
you drive to the place you're staying at where you
get some stuff out of your car, and then you
get back into their car. Then you say that you
drive up to that abandoned house, you take them out
of the car, and then whenever you want, it's morning,
when you're finished, you get back in their car. You
drive back down to the low parking lot. Am I correct?
So far, yes, okay. And then you go to the
hotel in the car that you've rented, and then you
come back and you get in that car again and
drive up group fifteen and you're talking about the looking
at banks and stuff like that, and then you turn
around and you drive back down and you go back
to your car after leaving that car in the apartment complex.
So I have all that right, Yes, okay. So in
most four times that you were getting out of that car,
is there any chance that you ever touched anything in
the car with an ungloved hand, not that I recall it.
Is it possible? I mean, because I mean you're in
and out of a car a lot, and I just
wonder if it's possible that we might be able to
lift a fingerprint or access some DNA or something like
that from the car there.
Speaker 6: If I left to print on that car there, that
would be.
Speaker 7: A pretty serious oversight on my part. I had gloves
on the entire time. I was concerned about DNA.
Speaker 6: The car.
Speaker 7: There is a good possibility if there's fairly long dark
hair that you.
Speaker 6: Found on the seat and there's a possible DNA match
to me.
Speaker 7: But other than that, I seriously doubt you're gonna find
DNA or fingerprints anywhere.
Speaker 3: What kinde of gloves do you wear when you're.
Speaker 6: When you're doing this, I usually wear leather baseball gloves.
Speaker 3: Okay, get rubber gloves too.
Speaker 7: No, I usually don't wear what rubber gloves?
Speaker 3: Do you recall? I mean you might have been perspiring
or something like that. Is it is that possible? Oh?
Speaker 7: Yeah, that was a concern I had, especially at their house,
because my gloves were wet, and you know, I was sweating,
and it's possible some of my perspiration got through the
gloves and got.
Speaker 3: On I who knows how many items.
Speaker 6: But I wasn't. I wasn't overly concerned about that.
Speaker 3: All right, Either did you or drink or anything did
you use there? Did you go into the refrigerator while
you're at the house.
Speaker 6: I may have looked in the refrigerator.
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't know.
Speaker 6: I didn't.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I know they were pretty big beer drinkers,
so I didn't know if you found any bear anything
like Dad and the refrigerator and just curious. Okay, So
you mentioned that you've adjusted seats to put up in
the car. Did you find that you had to adjust
the driver's seat to get in it. Yeah. Yeah, and
how tall you? About? Six two? Okay? Did you get
a sense for who drove the car last? By the
by the seat? Yeah, and who'd you think it was?
Speaker 7: Well, it's see, I'm guessing it was her, missus Curry
that did most of the driving for a number of reasons.
Speaker 3: Yeah what what reasons are that? Uh? Well, from what
I think, that's what they told me. But yeah, he.
Speaker 7: Wasn't He wasn't in any shape to drive. It seemed
like so you.
Speaker 3: You noticed anything of peculiar about either of them as
they walked or moved.
Speaker 7: Around, aside from the now I mean, aside from the
fact that they weren't in the best of shape.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know either along with a lamp
for anything like that. I know, I know you. I
know you mentioned that Bill is a pretty heavy guy.
Anything else about him that that led you to the
conclusion that he wasn't in great shape? Well, I knew.
Speaker 7: I knew he had diabetes, and they told me that
after I shortly after we left their house.
Speaker 3: Okay, Uh, give me a second, I'm fumbling through my
notes to find the important questions to ask you now
tell me about this abandoned farmhouse. And I know in
the interview you described of quite plainly how you how
you get the guy into the basement through the kind
of the storm door that that leads down into the basement.
Is that Craig? Yes? Okay? Deep. And once he's the
tied up in the basement, you after your little chase
with the with the woman there? Uh, do you bring
her in the same door or a different door? No?
Speaker 6: I brought her in through the front door, okay.
Speaker 3: And can you describe the front of that particular house.
There was a.
Speaker 7: It was either a screen din or a Glasston porch, about.
Speaker 6: Probably six by twelve or six by twenty. On the
front of the house.
Speaker 7: There was a I believe a screen door you had
to go through to get into the porch area. And
then there was a standard entry door that led into
the living room of the of the old portion of
the farmhouse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, Now when you were scoping that place out earlier,
did you go inside it and go through it? I did? Okay,
so you knew what you knew exactly where where things
were and where you wanted to place them and all
that stuff. I one thing I didn't get Now with her,
you bring her in the front door. There's an upstairs there, right, Yes,
you go stairs? Are you on that like ground floor? No?
Speaker 6: I took her upstairs, okay?
Speaker 3: And then and what's what's up there? Furnishing wise or anything?
Speaker 7: There was Most of the interior doors were off the hinges.
Speaker 3: There was.
Speaker 7: I think there were some old heating appliances, either boilers
or something in the rooms, and.
Speaker 6: There were several old mattresses upstairs.
Speaker 7: But for the most part that was it just larger
pieces of furniture was the main thing that was in
the house. Most of the household items had been removed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and not in the basement, but on the ground
floor where the couch or anything.
Speaker 7: There was a couch in the living room, there was
maybe a recliner, and there was an old freestand be
wooden TV.
Speaker 3: Okay, eighteen sixties. So you're a they ever concern you that,
I mean, there's two floors that that separate you between
between him and her. It might, you know, it would
seem like a lot of stuff could be going on
when you're upstairs that that you don't you don't know
about it, and the other way around. When you're downstairs,
are you Are you that confident in how secure you
have these people? Yeah? It was, well that's things didn't
go as exactly as planned. So yeah, I kind of
gathered that of I wish at some point you'd tell
me what exactly is planned meant? But you know that's
any any interested in telling me that? No.
Speaker 7: All I can say is that, you know, I had
specific things that I wanted to happen in mind, and.
Speaker 3: Because of.
Speaker 7: Actions taken by them, there were you know, it just
it's just frustrated me to the point where I.
Speaker 5: You know, I still.
Speaker 7: I still was going to go through with it, but
I was, I just didn't. It didn't go exactly as
I had planned.
Speaker 3: Okay, And you had plans for both of them you
mentioned that, Is that correct? Like I mean, he wasn't
just like collateral just being there. You had plans for
him as well. Yeah. Okay. Now, when when you're talking
about raving the woman, you mentioned going outside after a
while and then coming back in again. Are you like
a smoker. Do you go out and smoke or believe
any cigarettes? Or I know he smoked cigars because they
talked about you having cigar breaks? Is that what you
do when you step outside or are you just getting
some her No, that's what I was doing. You were smoking? Yeah,
did you take the bunch with you?
Speaker 7: Or well get there, there isn't there isn't really a
butt I was. I I smoke them down to where
there's not much left, and then I step on them,
so they look like just another pile of leaves on
the ground.
Speaker 3: All right, And so are we talking cigarettes just at
the at the deal or it's a cigar, it's it's
all tobacco, it's not.
Speaker 7: I think I smoked a couple of them in their
backyard too, And okay.
Speaker 3: All right, well yeah, and you'd say they're smoked down
so fine that they would be almost impossible to even
recognize as have been part of a cigar.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean once once you step on them, it's
just tobacco leaves. So once you step on them, and
they're not in the shape of a cigar anymore, they
look just like any other okay, bit of leaves or
vegetation you might step on.
Speaker 3: All right, feel free to interject if you think there's
anything else I need to know that I'm not asking.
Speaker 6: It sounds like you've already heard the major interviews.
Speaker 3: So well, you you talked about having a glog hand.
Speaker 7: Gun with you, right, it was a Smithson lesson, but yeah.
Speaker 3: Okay it is it a semi forty count Yeah? Okay?
What happened to that? I mean, I know what happened
to the ten twenty two, and I know what happened
to the gun you took away from the house, But
I don't know about the smid the western semi.
Speaker 7: Smith The lesson was I was actually arrested with that
in Texas.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, all right? Did it? Okay? You say that
you hit the guy with a shovel a few times downstairs?
Is that your shovel? Is it a shovel that was
in a basement or and did you take that away?
Speaker 6: No, it was a shovel that was already in the house,
and I didn't take it away. I think I actually
left it in the basement.
Speaker 3: There have been any blood on it or anything? No? Okay,
all right, let's see. Let me back up a second.
Is there is there anything anything else about their house
that you remember that maybe I forgot to ask you about.
Speaker 6: Sure, there is. I don't really know what you're looking for, though.
Speaker 3: It strikes you and like, on, jeez, why And he
asked me that no, you remember, well I already asked
you about the garage. You said you didn't see too much,
so and he didn't go in the basement, right, No, okay,
anything else that you mentioned windows upstairs? And uh yeah,
he actually mentioned seeing a cop car down the road.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there was.
Speaker 7: I believe there was a business of some sort directly
pretty much directly across the road from the farmhouse.
Speaker 6: And then further down.
Speaker 7: To the right, it seems like there was either uh yeah,
it seems like it was another farmhouse and there was
I remember there was.
Speaker 3: A it looked like a.
Speaker 7: Sheriff's car. I think it was a sheriff's car.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 7: I don't know if he lived there or what the
other side of the road, right, yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah,
I don't think it was a sheriff, but I actually
I think it.
Speaker 3: Was a local cop from another town who took the
car home. But but yeah, you're right, there was a
there was another cop living down the road. You were
there's something about blocking out the windows upstairs where where
the woman was, is it? Yeah?
Speaker 7: I had I took a couple of the doors and
maybe a mattress and put him over the windows so
that people wouldn't.
Speaker 3: See the light. And she she was on a mattress.
That one of the mattresses that it was laying on
the floor when you checked the place out, Yeah, you
cover it with anything that you brought with you or
just now that old booty mattress that was there.
Speaker 6: That was pretty good, chick.
Speaker 3: Really, Yeah, it looked like anybody has been like squatting
hanging out in there recently.
Speaker 7: No, Well, maybe there was one portion of the house,
the back portion of the house had an addition on it,
and it was pretty clearly the last area that had
been lived in. They had a makeshift kitchen set up
and seems like there were even still some appliances in.
Speaker 6: That portion of the house. So yeah, maybe they were squatters.
I don't know, it looked it looked.
Speaker 3: More like.
Speaker 7: Somebody who was just living in that section because the
rest of the house wasn't that livable anymore.
Speaker 3: So, okay, all right, when you finally get out of
decide to get out of town, and you're you're going
to Maine, how do you get there? I mean, I
know how I usually go to Maine and it's by
getting on eighty nine and heading south. Is that how
you go or do you go a different way? No?
Speaker 6: I think I went the northern route on the way there.
Speaker 3: Okay. And you mentioned the state or state forest in
New Hampshire where you got out. Was that off a
local road or was that off the the interstate?
Speaker 6: I think that was off of a highway.
Speaker 7: I don't remember if honestly, I don't remember if that
was an interstate or not.
Speaker 6: I would have to look at them out.
Speaker 3: All right, Okay, I'm winding down here, so just bear
with me a couple more minutes. Okay.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Well he's looking at his questions, is it okay?
I asked your questions.
Speaker 10: Yeah, you tell me you had some conversation with the
couriers that you talked about them telling you that he
was a diabetic, that she was the one who primarily
did the driving. I think you said in your Maid's
interview that they he talked.
Speaker 8: To you about his military history or background.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right.
Speaker 8: Can you remember any.
Speaker 10: Other specific things that you spoke with them about.
Speaker 7: Well, obviously they're I mean concern was what was going
on at the time, so that was.
Speaker 6: Primarily what we were talking about.
Speaker 8: What kind of questions Were they asking.
Speaker 6: You what's going on?
Speaker 8: And did you what was your answer to them?
Speaker 7: I told them it was kidnapped for ransom.
Speaker 10: Did they talk to you anything about their own financial
history when you.
Speaker 8: Mentioned that that might be your motive?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 8: What did they tell you?
Speaker 7: They told me they didn't come from money.
Speaker 8: Did they tell you anything about like the touch of jobs.
Speaker 6: They did or yeah?
Speaker 7: I asked them all the questions and do you recall
what their answers were? She told me she worked in
a hospital, and I believe she said he worked at
a animal hospital or something.
Speaker 10: Okay, Did they tell you anything about their specific family history,
whether or not they had children, whether or not they had.
Speaker 8: You know this kidnapped for ransom thing?
Speaker 10: Did you did you explore it further with them in
terms of who you would be contacting for the ransom money?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 10: Can you tell me what you recall about that part
of the conversation.
Speaker 7: I was asking them where their family primarily lived and
how many members there were around.
Speaker 10: And did do you recall what they said?
Speaker 7: They told me they had recently moved to the area
from Winooski, and that there had several family members in
the areas.
Speaker 3: Still huh, whether or not they had children.
Speaker 7: It seems like I did ask them if they had children,
and I believe they had said no.
Speaker 10: Okay, do you recall anything else specifically from the house
that you remember seeing, either in the kitchen, whether it
was photographs or wall hangings, like fixtures, anything that you
can recall distinctively.
Speaker 6: Nothing distinctive.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 7: Seems like for the most part, it was pretty standard furnishings,
and I don't remember seeing anything that really stood out
to me. I do remember they had fairly new televisions.
It seemed like in every room, like large flat screen
TVs or something.
Speaker 8: So, Okay, what about the kitchen.
Speaker 10: Did you notice any about the appliances, whether or not
it was like a newer kitchen an older kitchen.
Speaker 6: I don't recall. I don't. Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't
really focused on that.
Speaker 3: I guess, Okay, all right. I had a couple more
questions for Israel about the car. Okay, isn't the trunk
of the car there's a black trash bag when when
we recovered the car, do you recall if that's if
that's something you brought or it was, or it was
something that was in the car when you got it.
It depends how big of a trash bag it is,
I guess. Okay, so you don't have a specific recollection
of leaving a trash bag in the trunk.
Speaker 7: I would be surprised if I had left a trash bag.
I it's possible that I did, But.
Speaker 3: If you did, it would have been a newer one.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it would have been fresh off of the role.
Speaker 7: And like I said, there were very large trash bags,
so they're pretty distinctive.
Speaker 3: Were they heavy duty they were, I believe on tractor
bag or were they just big?
Speaker 6: I think they were two or three milf.
Speaker 7: They weren't.
Speaker 6: They weren't super heavy duty, they were just very large.
Speaker 3: Okay. Did you get in led by any kids?
Speaker 6: I don't think so.
Speaker 3: All right, there were uh you mentioned that the car
overheated or saw uh cooling containers in the car? Is
that is that right?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: There was.
Speaker 7: When I got in the car to put the seat back,
it wouldn't go back all the way. I think there
were a couple of gallons of ana freeze.
Speaker 3: Okay, And did you remember anything else that was in
the car.
Speaker 7: There was like some seat cushions, like lower back support,
cushions and something like that.
Speaker 3: A pillow. Do you do you recall a pillow being
in the car? Yeah?
Speaker 7: Yeah, there were several several pillows are back like I say,
like back support or something.
Speaker 3: You didn't put it in the car, like I mean,
when that wasn't part of stuff you took away from
the house that was already.
Speaker 7: In the car, right, that was that was something that
they you could tell they habitually drove with those things.
Speaker 3: Yeah. One one thing we did notice that we took.
We took from the car machine strange. It looked like
a couple of packages of women's underwear that was I
look not open to me. I don't know, is it.
Do you recall that It's possible I don't.
Speaker 7: I don't know if they were if it was in
the trunk. It's possible they fell out of the suitcase
or something. But I mean unless no, I don't recall
putting those in there.
Speaker 3: Now, okay, all right? And you don't recall seeing them
in there though, just as you were checking out the car.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it seems like there was a bag of something
in there. I don't remember. Like I said, I checked
out the car. I was only I was looking for
specific things when I checked out the car, So anything
else inconsequential I probably just pushed under the seat or something.
Speaker 3: Okay, what were you looking for, like there's a value
or no?
Speaker 6: I was trying to figure out who lived in the house.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, So most of your intelligence gathering about
the house and the car and all that stuff is
to determine who lives in the house, Am I right there? Yeah?
Speaker 7: I just wanted to know what to expect when I
when I went in, I was I was looking in
the car for for dog hair, And it's trying to
find out the ages and how many people there might
be living in the house by going through all the
paperwork in the car things like that.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I mean that that makes sense to me.
That's similar to some of the stuff we do when
we're looking to the gain entry to a house. Now
I must, But apart from who's going to be in
the house when you get in there, I mean, does
that really matter to you?
Speaker 7: Uh?
Speaker 3: Because I mean, do you have like a plan A
if it's if it's uh, you know what you expected
me and a woman and it's but but it doesn't
matter if it's a you know, three people or or
two people or you know, you know what I mean.
Would you would you have, like, if you saw something
that you didn't expect to see, would you have walked
away from that place and have gone somewhere else?
Speaker 7: If there had been three or four people in the house,
then I would have just tied them up and left.
Speaker 3: Okay. And you got feelings about kids, I mean, are
they like something you want to stay away from? Yeah?
Speaker 6: I try, yeah, try to avoid it.
Speaker 7: I mean, I I am already had pretty strong suspicions
that if there were gonna be kids there, there were
probably grandkids or something. And I didn't think that was
very likely. Like I say, I checked out the garage
and the backyard and I was I was looking for
signs of that.
Speaker 3: I didn't see anything. So all right, okay, is there
Do you have any questions for me right now? No?
All right, I'm trying to I'm trying to think for
a minute, if you know, because I'm probably never going
to get a chance to do this again. If there's
anything else that that I want to ask you, But
I mean there are millions of things I want to
ask you. But you know, I understand the ground rules,
and I and I respect, you know, at least the
level of cooperation I'm getting from it now. Uh, do
you mind if I ask you about why why Vermont
and why why es ex Junction? It just seems kind
of off the beaten path from from you know, with
your the areas you've been to, m.
Speaker 6: Well, off the beaten path, that's kind of like what
I like to do.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I was. I was with with the
recovery team at the reservoir and that, I mean, it's
a beautiful area certainly, that's off the beaten path about
as far as you can go. You mentioned that your
I think your plan was to say that you would
come to the area to do some fishing. Is it
is that right?
Speaker 7: Well, not so much a plant that is actually what
I was doing. I was, I was, I was fishing.
I mean, I was fishing along the I don't know
what you call it, like there's a there's a breakwater
that goes out into Lake Champlain.
Speaker 6: I think it was. I was there right after the flooding.
Speaker 7: There was a big flood and there was a lot
of damage that was done to the parks along the
water waterways there. So I was I was driving around
out there looking at all that all the flooded campgrounds
and damaged trees, and there were quite a few people fishing.
So I stopped and asked them what they were, what
they were fishing for and if they had any luck, and.
Speaker 6: Decided that I was going to stop.
Speaker 7: And my originally I wasn't even planning on staying in Vermont.
I was, you know, planning on going on to New
Hampshire and maybe staying there for a.
Speaker 3: Couple of days. And but yeah, I just I just decided.
Speaker 7: I wanted to try fishing there, and I already had
any fishing gear.
Speaker 3: With me, not really, No, did you have a license?
Speaker 10: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I did, I did get I.
Speaker 7: Think I got a three day license or something.
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, I don't want to I don't want you
to get jumped up for fishing without a license.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there after me for poaching already.
Speaker 3: So I mean that's a that's a serious offense at Vermont. Yeah.
But uh anyway, Uh so so you're I mean, are
there are other areas in Vermont that that you're that
you are familiar with or is it just because this
is off the ferry route kind of that that you
you decided to stay in Essex. No, I've been.
Speaker 7: I've been all through Vermont various occasions. I don't I
don't always stay in like Burlington area. It's it's kind
of on the way to New York though, from route
I take.
Speaker 3: So okay, and oh, I just thought of a question.
Do you eat a restaurants when you're in town?
Speaker 6: Not usually?
Speaker 3: Did do you recall when you were this visit here
in in June if you eated any restaurants or go
through McDonald's or what do you do about food?
Speaker 7: I don't remember on that last trip, but it seems
like I'm sure I did eat a restaurant at some point.
Speaker 3: It must not have been very memorable. Sorry, yeah, okay,
Well that's all right. I just give me one more
thing to to look at. All right. Like I said,
I'm winding down here, I'm spinning my wheels, trying to
make every advantage of Let.
Speaker 4: Me ask you a quick questions, is Frank, is really
do you bring your cigars with you and you buy
them there?
Speaker 6: I usually buy them wherever I am.
Speaker 4: When'd you buy cigars and Vermont?
Speaker 6: Well, on that trip, I had them with me.
Speaker 7: Oh, I bought him in Chicago, Chicago or Indiana.
Speaker 6: I don't know, somewhere down there, it's.
Speaker 5: That same brand you usually smoke.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it's not as they're kind of a
little more difficult to find certain areas.
Speaker 10: But yeah, mister Keith, I just have a couple other
questions as well.
Speaker 8: Obviously, I think.
Speaker 10: That the folks out there told you that one of
the reasons that we're having this conversation with you is
because the Courier house has been sitting vacant. I mean
we helmet as evidence for the past year, and that
family would like get back because at some point here
because they want to put it back on the market,
and there's a chance that's going d up going to
foreclosure unless we do something pretty quick, which is why
we're having this conversation, so we can verify that it
was you and only you that.
Speaker 8: Were involved in their death.
Speaker 10: And I'm one and so that's the focus of my questions.
Speaker 8: And was there anything about missus Courrier.
Speaker 10: I understand that you spent it sounds like more time
with her than you did miss a career.
Speaker 8: Anything about anything observed.
Speaker 10: About her body, birthmarks, anything like that while you were.
Speaker 3: Involved with her.
Speaker 6: Nothing I really want to talk about, though, Well, Obviously.
Speaker 10: For us, that would be critical to show that it
was you, and only you that could have committed this crime,
because nobody else would have that information.
Speaker 8: So to the extent that.
Speaker 10: You're willing to share even a portion of that, it
would be very helpful for us and able to get
in order to give the house back and close out
this aspect of our investigation.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I I think at this point in
the interview, it's pretty obvious that I was in the house,
and considering that I had known ties to them prior
to that night, there's really no other way I could
know as much about that house as as I do
unless I was the one who took them out of it.
Speaker 10: So is there anything Can you give me a general
It can't be specific about what it is you recall
for her to give me a general idea about what
part of her body saw something distinctive or anything like that.
Speaker 3: No, I can't.
Speaker 6: I can't really go into that.
Speaker 3: Okay, did bring a question that went in my head
and out of it all?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 3: Well, never mind, Oh yeah, that's that's what I wanted
to ask you. This guy Bill spent a lot of
time on the internet. Is I mean, do you do
you spend a lot of time on the computer.
Speaker 6: I have carry outic you know, from time to time.
Speaker 3: Is there any chance you guys could have ever crossed
Pats on the internet, either chatting or anything like that.
Speaker 7: Oh, it's anything's possible, but I doubt it statistically it
seems improbable.
Speaker 3: Okay, but it's certainly that would not have been a
conscious thing that you ever communicated with with this guy
on the internet. No, okay, all right?
Speaker 10: Is there anything else, mister Keith you can think of
that was personal they spoke to you about like that?
We have obviously the information about them having moved or
family members having moved here from Nuski. Is it's personal
to them? Is there anything else you can talk about
or recall that they told you that was sort of
personal to their lives?
Speaker 7: No. I, for the most part, the only time I was,
you know, letting them mistake was to answer questions that
I asked them. So I I don't. I yeah, I wasn't.
It wasn't a typical conversation.
Speaker 6: I guess you could say, it's not.
Speaker 3: It's not like I.
Speaker 10: Did mister Courier say anything to you about the military.
Speaker 8: I know you talked about and.
Speaker 10: I may be getting the wording wrong on this, but
either the branch of the military or the infantry or
something like that that you were both a part of
or had both some similar history with.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 10: And did he tell you anything about specifically what he
did in the military or his experiences where he been
anything like that.
Speaker 6: No, he just said it was a long time ago.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 10: And what was it again about the two of you
that you had in common in terms of the military.
Speaker 8: Was it the same branch of military.
Speaker 7: The same division, I believe, okay, which was what twenty fifth?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 10: And I'm sorry, I don't know a lot of the
military that's part of the.
Speaker 7: Army or yeah, that's the army. Well they call it.
They call it the electric strawberry. That's what caught my eye.
It's a It was the shoulder patch on his uniform.
It was the same as the one that I had
worn when I was in the military.
Speaker 10: Does it say electric strawberry or like a flame term
for what it is?
Speaker 6: It's a leaf.
Speaker 7: I don't know what kind of leaf, maybe an oak
leaf or something with a lightning.
Speaker 3: Bolt through it.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 10: And you saw that in on somewhere on the insignia
or the documents.
Speaker 8: Where did you see that?
Speaker 7: I saw it in the in the dresser. It was
a unit patch. It was either on a uniform or
it was separate in a bag. And I think it
was in a bag of his other military medals or something.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 10: And that was in the i'll call it the spare
room for lack of a better word.
Speaker 6: Right, it was in the bedroom adjoining theirs.
Speaker 10: Okay, and you call it there was actually a bed
in that bedroom as well.
Speaker 7: There was either a bed or a couch. I don't Yeah,
I think there was a bed.
Speaker 8: Okay, Okay.
Speaker 10: And I know that you said it not make interview
that Bill Currier had on shorts that looked similar to
you to maybe swim trunks or something like that.
Speaker 3: Right, And do you recall.
Speaker 8: What she was wearing the ring.
Speaker 7: She was wearing really lightweight like sleeping shorts and T shirt.
Speaker 10: It looked like they weren't something They looked like a
sleep wear, like something you would buy a sajamas.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Israel are you are you? Are you made of American
or anything? No? I noticed you spent several years out
on the on the West Coast working for the Maka Tribes.
Is that correct my contract? Yes? And then uh, from
what I understand from looking at the media, you might
have had had you might have some property in upstate
New York near the Saint Regis Tribes. Is that correct? Yes?
Is that just coincidental? Or did you have any affinity
for Native America or I mean, it is that significant
in any way I've had i'n't you know.
Speaker 7: I don't know how significant it is, but you know,
my our paths have crossed for a long time.
Speaker 3: So if you have a I mean you view these
people as as victims or people you have respect for.
Speaker 6: I have respect for everybody.
Speaker 3: I just any anything in particular. Well, I guess not
from the sounds of things, Well, you guess you like
the outdoors. It sounds like you're kind of very comfortable
in the wilderness surroundings. And I just wondered if that
was any part of your heritage. It's just the way
I was raised.
Speaker 7: I no, but I'm not. I'm not a Native American that.
Speaker 3: I know of.
Speaker 10: And if I can just ask, and I know that
you've said that you've run a lot of detail, and
you have and I'm just trying to I guess answer
some questions.
Speaker 8: They're still lingering out there.
Speaker 10: I think you said in the math interview that when
you went into their bedroom that you tore or or
brought all of the covers off.
Speaker 8: Of the bed.
Speaker 3: Is that right? Yes? Okay?
Speaker 10: And did those covers stay off the bed?
Speaker 6: Probably okay?
Speaker 8: And then ask you restrain them?
Speaker 10: It sounds like just with their wrists by their wrists,
is that right?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay?
Speaker 10: And did they stay on the bed or did they
go somewhere else? No.
Speaker 7: I told them. I had them roll over on their
stomachs and I, you know, I told them to keep
their faces down on the pillow and not look look
at anything or talk or anything. And after they had
done that, told them to put their hands behind their backs,
and that's I restrained their wrists and just told them
to stay there.
Speaker 3: So basically you were able to control them, at least initially,
just by the fact that they did they knew you
had a gun.
Speaker 6: I don't think they knew that they I told them
I had a gun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And uh, well, they obviously got the message.
Speaker 7: That you meant business, right, Not really that was kind
of the problem.
Speaker 3: Uh, I mean, I I'm trying to you know, picture
this in my mind, and I imagine when you go
in there, you you are, you know, kind of kind
of like when I kick a door in and I
tell people to get on the ground. It's obvious just
from the tone of my voice that that you don't
want to mess you don't want to not do what
I'm telling you to do. I mean, is that a
similar thing?
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, initially that's that's the way it went down.
Speaker 6: But once the.
Speaker 7: I guess, once they realized what's going on, what's really
going on?
Speaker 3: Is that you know, did they if you were gonna
kill him? I mean, like it was that big thing?
Or did it? Was it more like? What? What? What's
going on?
Speaker 7: I think they were incredulous of the whole situation, and
and that was part of the problem is they didn't
realize how serious the situation was.
Speaker 6: I think they thought that they could.
Speaker 3: Talk their way out of it or negotiate their way
out of it. And are they trying to like build
rapport with you, like, yeah, okay, gotcha. Did you get
the sense that they had been dreat before they went
to bed? Like have you just smell alcohol in your
breath or anything like that? No, I didn't know.
Speaker 7: I I think I knew that there were somebody had
been drinking in the house, because I remember seeing something
to that effect. And I knew that she smoked, And
I don't beyond that, I don't. I didn't notice anything
about them personally.
Speaker 3: No, you let her smoke, buddy too.
Speaker 6: I think I didn't let her smoke or time or two?
Speaker 8: Yeah, okay, when did you do that?
Speaker 10: When they were you were still at their house.
Speaker 8: Or when you went to the farmhouse when we were
at the farmhouse.
Speaker 10: So did you unrestrained her during that time?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 8: Well did you hold a cigarette up to her about
for her?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I mean I she wasn't in restraints the whole time,
but initially she was.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Okay, it was during that time that she let
her smoke.
Speaker 6: I let her smoke a couple of different times.
Speaker 8: Okay, after her initial.
Speaker 10: Attempt to get away, did she try to get away again?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 8: And when did that happen?
Speaker 6: That happened when I was.
Speaker 7: Dealing with the situation with mister Curry in the basement.
Speaker 6: I think she, I mean, she could hear what was
that there was.
Speaker 7: Something going on, and I think I already had her
tied up pretty well by then, but I could tell
when I got back up that she'd been trying to
get away.
Speaker 10: Okay, and she was she successful in any way and
trying to get away?
Speaker 6: Not really?
Speaker 8: No, did you tell her that those?
Speaker 3: Did she? Well?
Speaker 6: No, I never told her that.
Speaker 8: Now Or do you think she knew it?
Speaker 6: I don't know what she thought.
Speaker 7: I mean, she she knew that there was definitely an
altercation in the basement, and.
Speaker 3: She may have.
Speaker 6: Suspected that there were I don't I don't really think
I think.
Speaker 7: She knew that I came up and got a gun,
But I don't know if she knew that I had
shot it, because she probably wouldn't have recognized it as
a gunshot.
Speaker 3: To make more of a clicking noise when you when
you had that silence are on it.
Speaker 7: The only I mean, with that silencer on it, the
only thing you could hear was the sound of the
bolt going back and forth. And of course you can
hear the bullet sitting.
Speaker 3: But yeah, but from here it's probably not especially I mean,
is it raining at this time?
Speaker 6: I think it has started raining again at some point.
Speaker 7: I remember there was a hole in the roof and
there was a lot of water pouring down in one
through one portion of the house.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you uh, you mentioned it's something like a
like a hole cut into the floor for for a
pipe to go through or something like that, because I
know you'd said something about your camp stop falling down
through it or something. Yeah. Did you get the feeling
that there was a it was for a woodstove pipe
or something like that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that's exactly what it was.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, Well she was and from the sound
of the thing, she was pretty intact, I mean physically
until until like the last time you were done with
her upstairs in your heart and you mentioned strangling her
and she had she had kind of given up or
something like that. Am I right? Is that is that accurate?
Or did you did did you injure or or rubber
up or in any way before that?
Speaker 7: Well, it sounds like you heard the description.
Speaker 3: I gave of well I understood, Yeah, I did, And
I just I don't have a full understanding of what
you were explaining. And maybe it's because you know, I
listened to it over a week ago and heard it once.
But but it sounds like you may have rubbed her
up a bit when she tried to escape the first time.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I had to be a little more assertive after
after that point you.
Speaker 3: Slap her around or punch her or you choked her,
And what's what's the I didn't hit her. I think
I grabbed her by the hair.
Speaker 7: And and maybe by the back of the neck and
and to take her into the house.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, and now you bring her downstairs to
finish her off. But but you mentioned that she's she's
kind of out of it as you bring her downstairs.
Had you had you choked her out before or it
was it's just a result of all she had been through.
Speaker 6: Well, I'm sure it was a comedy. I mean, uh,
I had.
Speaker 7: Choked her.
Speaker 3: It is choking. I guess that is that a part
of what you do because I know you you mentioned
that the whole tying up bondage thing is is is
important to you. I guess for no other for lack
of a better term, is choking a big element of
this whole thing too? Yeah, okay, all right, So telling you,
I mean, you're pretty angry that things didn't go exactly
the way you wanted them to. Would this have had
any different conclusion? I mean, you've never had any intention
of letting these people live, did you no? Okay? All right,
I can't think of anything else. Use right now, anybody
else or Israel if you, if you have any questions,
jump right in.
Speaker 10: I know, mister Keith, this is Mary Morrison, and honestly,
and I had written a letter to the folks out
there that I think you've been. You've stayed a coffee.
Speaker 3: Of yeah, okay, And obviously.
Speaker 10: We appreciate your willingness to give us information today because
it helps us close out this aspect of our case.
And as you know, this case is a very big
deal in the state. We don't have people go missing
very often, and when they do, they're normally found fairly quickly.
Speaker 8: In this case with Warner, anniversary is coming up.
Speaker 10: Here in just a few days, and we expect there
to be a lot of media attention on this.
Speaker 8: And we expect them to be painting the.
Speaker 10: Police in a fairly unfavorable light about the fact that
it was not made in the rest in the case.
And obviously we have information right now as to who
did it, and we have made a commitment on our
part to not attaching your name to this case, and
we've agreed to not charge you in Vermont without specific
permission from the federal authorities.
Speaker 8: But that's based.
Speaker 10: Wholly in part on you providing information about this victim
in New York, and I understand that you're reluctant or
hesitant to give to give that information.
Speaker 8: Is that correct?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 4: Yeah, if I can jump in, Israel, I just just
marry is is friends, just to let you know what
we had a discussion of beforehand.
Speaker 5: You know, I think Israel just needs.
Speaker 4: Some questions sounds like answering about the letter, about the situation.
But my understanding is, you know, he's never he's never
wavered from the fact that he is going to tell
us about New York.
Speaker 5: And obviously Israel can correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 7: Correct, that's you know, that's prior to everything up to
this point. The main specifics of what I've been discussing
with investigators here have all been things that took place
within the last year, with the exception of a trip
that Vermont was also involved in. I believe they said
it was two thousand and nine. So I mean, I've
given them some information on that trip. I'm just hesitant
to reveal too much more about what happened on that trip.
Until I find out what my options are as far
as potential agreement or negotiation we can come to regarding
whether or not I'm charged with it for number number one,
and at what time that information becomes public that I'm
that I'm responsible for for not just the things that
have happened within the last year, but things that happened
to prior to that.
Speaker 3: That's what my concern is at this point.
Speaker 10: Right well, And I mean, I don't understand you've got
lawyers out there that you can, you know, consult with
if you like. And I just want to dress one
thing because in the beginning of this conversation you asked,
I guess it may have been through Frank whether or
not Essex was found by this by that letter, right right,
And I mean, I'm not sure if you're.
Speaker 8: Looking at this letter and trying.
Speaker 10: To pick it apart and see if there's some like
wiggle room or whatever there for us. And I mean,
I'm kind.
Speaker 8: Of I'm pretty straightforward.
Speaker 10: This is a commandment we've made because we're very interested,
obviously in closing out other cases if we can.
Speaker 8: I mean, my focus right now is Vermont in New York.
And that's it for right now.
Speaker 10: And our commitment is entirely dependent on that information being provided.
And I understand that you know you've got questions. I'm
sure the legitimate questions that you want answered, But I'm
just trying to be direct and forth right with you
that that's the linchpin of the agreement for us.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, in my mind, I don't feel that
I owe you anything per se because as far as
the couriers are concerned, the only thing I've asked is
that my name not be attached to it.
Speaker 6: You have all your information. You should have.
Speaker 7: Come to the realization by now that this crime is
completely solved and wrapped up and right.
Speaker 8: But we're not arresting anybody for it, you know. We're
doing that on our agreement with you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they obviously you know, they're not going ahead
and charging you.
Speaker 3: We're dealing with the public. Follow Yeah, I love that,
which which isn't isn't great because you know, as far
as they're concerned, we haven't solved this thing.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, and the public knows you're looking for
the bodies, which is more than you had a few
months ago.
Speaker 3: Well, don't get don't get me wrong, it's it's uh
I've lived with this case for well going on a
year now, and uh yeah, since April. I yeah, I'm
in a different place. Uh but you know that. I
guess it's not my issue to to speak about the
agreement and stuff like that. So I'll just leave all
that stuff to to Marry and and the other attorneys,
and I just I appreciate you giving me additional details
which you have and if you if you don't mind,
I want to ask you a personal question. I went
on your website. Did you do all that carpentry that
that the photos are all about? Yeah?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean everything that was on the website or.
Speaker 3: Yeah, where did you learn to do that? Yeah?
Speaker 6: Oh? Practice makes perfect.
Speaker 3: With that, I said, practice makes perfect.
Speaker 6: I've been doing it, you know, since I was seventeen.
Speaker 3: So I mean, you're amazing. You're an amazing carpenter. I
wish you would have stayed that. I've always been, you
know what I mean. But okay, well, thanks for your time.
Speaker 8: Are there questions I can answer, mister kath in terms
of the letter or not.
Speaker 7: I do have some concerns about the way the letter's worded,
but I don't have an issue with with your commitment
it's things. It's all things that I think we can
work out from this end good.
Speaker 10: And that's obviously I'm encouraged to hear that. And like
I said, that's that's why, that's why.
Speaker 8: I wrote it.
Speaker 10: So I guess I just wanted to reassure you that
to the extent there to extend, the concerns may exist,
there's certainly weren't intentional.
Speaker 8: I'm telling you right now.
Speaker 10: That the commitment we made was in order to get
this information in the commitment stands well.
Speaker 7: I mean, I I always said, I feel I know
that right now there's hasn't been a lot of new
information you have on on things that happened prior to
within the last year.
Speaker 3: But I'm still.
Speaker 6: Pretty confident that it can.
Speaker 7: Be worked out to where investigators get everything that they
want and need to close the rest of these cases.
Speaker 6: But yeah, it's it's it's.
Speaker 7: Not gonna happen overnight because I have some concerns about
like my long term my fate, if you will, and
and those are the last cards I have to play.
And I know that, so you know, I it's not
it's not anything personal that I'm withholding information.
Speaker 6: It's just there's some other unresolved issues that.
Speaker 7: I'm dealing with right now that I want to want
to make sure I have an understanding of it before
I before I jump in with both feet on some
of these other things.
Speaker 10: Okay, what now of tho those issues have nothing to
do without directly.
Speaker 7: Them, No, I think frankly, I've been pretty impressed with
the lack of media attention on, you know, what's been
going on in a career case.
Speaker 6: I there was, Yeah, there's I mean, I know that.
Speaker 7: It can't be easy from your perspective to keep this
thing under wraps at this point, and so I have
been impressed that it's been that my name hasn't been
attached to it yet, and if it can stay that way,
that's will definitely.
Speaker 6: Speed up the process.
Speaker 7: I realize it's not going to be that way indefinitely,
but yeah, right, well.
Speaker 10: And you're right, I mean, it hasn't been easy because
it's George described you the I think early on when
people heard that the jump site had been able to
focused it or you know, limit where we would have
to search to a pretty specific area, I think we
thought it might be a lot smaller, and it's not.
It's a big, big area so it requires a lot
of people to go through it, and so there's a
lot of people working on it. So to contain that
information is a lot of effort, and it's hard because,
as I said, you have not only you know, the
pressure from you in the sense that if this gets out,
then you may not give information. So that's obviously a
real factor for us, but also we've got a lot
of public pressure because it is a big deal here
and people want to know what happened.
Speaker 8: They know we're looking for bodies that they assume.
Speaker 10: I think that we're looking for bodies based on credible
information that the bodies are there, and you.
Speaker 8: Don't put the huge amount of resources.
Speaker 10: Into this search without some credible information. I think people
understand that, and there's been a lot of pressure on
us to do something about that, to respond to that.
And I'm hoping that when you say that our silence
and attaching your name to it can be that this
process it's true and we can, you know, move forward
because it's hard for us.
Speaker 7: So yeah, well, well yeah, I think I think it
will good.
Speaker 3: Israel is there ever do you do you ever see
a time that you might feel like you're willing to
discuss the more intimate details about what happened, uh to
to Bill and Lorraine. And the reason I'm asking that is,
you know, just as a cop, and I I am
very curious as to you know, the whole method of this.
And you know, it sounds to me like you're you're
a very organized guy, and maybe this is something better
for you know, the FBI, uh, you know, shrinks to
to way over. But but is that something you're gonna
You're gonna carry you to the grave or is there
some point where you might enlighten some of us about that.
Speaker 7: Well, there's for now a lot of the details that
that happened between well, for example, in the couriers.
Speaker 6: You know, those those details.
Speaker 7: I've given you your bottom line, you know, you know,
you know what my basic motivations are. And as far
as my specific motivations, that's, uh, that's something I I
can't answer your question as far as when or if
I might be able to talk about that, I.
Speaker 3: Imagine, I mean, you're gonna have if you obviously have
a lot of time to reflect on on your own
life and uh, and if I'm assuming correct, you did.
You didn't wake up one morning and decide that this
is what you wanted to do with your life.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 3: As to whether you have any regrets or anything, or
feel sorry or anything like that, that's not what I'm
talking about. But as as somebody you know who's, like
I said, I've been I've been in this business for
twenty eight years, and I'm very interested in people and
why they make the choices that they do. So, I mean,
I think that would be of a lot of value,
not just to me personally, but but to all of
us too, you know, to explore that at some point,
And I understand that's not now, but you know, at
some point I'd certainly be interested in that.
Speaker 7: Well, I think the short answer to what you're asking
me specifically, the way I think of it, I don't
really consider myself all that different or all that special
from hundreds of thousands of other people. All you have
to do is type in a word search on any
given corn sight, and you know there's all kinds of
people who have fantasies about rape and bondage, and you know,
the kinds of things that I take to another level.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I get that. And from what the as
it was explained to me is, you know, people early
early in life who can, through neglect or abuse, feel
that they don't have any control over their life develop
control fantasies over their life, and some of them involve
the violence and inflicting pain. I mean, so, I mean,
I don't. But the other side of the coin is
you're not I mean, you're not one hundred thousand other people.
You're you, and you know you've got specific reasons why
why you chose to do the things you get. You
get where I'm coming from.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I am I
still disagree that there's I think with me, it's a
combination of things. It's not you know, it's not just
about the sexual fantasies and it's not it's definitely not
just about the money, and it's not just about the adrenaline.
But it's all those things together and that's what I
get out of it. And once I started doing, you know,
once I did it.
Speaker 3: The practice makes perfect, like you said, right, Yeah, well
not so much that.
Speaker 7: It was more once I started, you know, and there
was nothing else like it.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I bet are you familiar with this guy
handsome from up in Alaska that that was labeled the
serial killer that used to capture people. And yeah, I
mean it happened right around this lake. Matt Muska, I mean,
is this a guy that I mean, you you ever
do you ever look into any of that stuff about
other people like that?
Speaker 7: I probably know every single serial killer that's ever been
written about.
Speaker 3: It's kind of a hobby line. So are you familiar
with the handsome guy? Yeah? Okay, is he still wied
by any chance? Yeah? I think so.
Speaker 7: He's a little before my time, but yeah, he's ensewered
up here.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just curious. I mean, I'm curious, guy, I guess.
So once again, once again, I'll say finally and U
and I appreciate your time, all right, and our just.
Speaker 8: Just to wrap up from my end to things.
Speaker 10: You know, our commitment the letter, that is the commitment
that we put in the letter is is valid and
is concrete in a solid so long as you are cooperating.
I mean, it doesn't It's not like earlier when I
said our focus is obviously Vermont in New.
Speaker 8: York, which is what it is right now.
Speaker 10: It's not like if you give New York that suddenly
we're saying, okay, well we're writing to charge if you're
cooperating out there. You know, the commitment in a letter
remains intact.
Speaker 6: All right, I appreciate that.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 3: Do you think give us a little scared when you
when you tried to bold out of the courtroom us too? Yeah?
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, okay, guys, Well, thank you very much.
Speaker 8: For your time.
Speaker 3: All right, I appreciate it.
Speaker 5: By all right, So I think that at least help them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, any thoughts, Oh yeah, let's tretting that. I mean, yeah,
I had some concerns.
Speaker 3: But I don't I'm not. I'm not worried. Now.
Speaker 7: It sounds like they had already had the main interviews.
So yeah, they wanted to charge me. They could have
charged me already.
Speaker 3: Right exactly.
Speaker 9: And that just gives that you know that Murdy, the
lieutenant that you were talking to, is the one who's
been tormented for ten months with this being responsible for
this case and not having answers and just taking a
little bit of ownership in the investigation and getting to
talk to you and to satisfy you know, his investigation.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that being said that, you know they are.
Before I got in here, I talked to the prosecutor there,
and you know, she did you know, express some concern
about the heat that's going to be on them. I
don't know if you've seen these cases, you probably have,
but they start looking at, oh, the one year anniversary
and basically trying to make the cops look like fools
after the one year and now they're running around the
dump doing nothing, so that they do have some specific
concerns about that, and they just kind of in their
mind and certainly otherwise they just want to be assured
that they're doing it and they're taking the heat for
good reason. And that's that's what she made clear to me.
And I think that's valid. I mean, obviously we were
in the same position.
Speaker 5: We'd beat Oh.
Speaker 6: I don't blame them for one too. I mean the
easy thing up on their soapbox now and say we've
got it's all.
Speaker 3: But it would be the easy thing for right.
Speaker 6: And don't I understand that.
Speaker 3: But you know, my point is is.
Speaker 6: If you know they they at least they know at
some point.
Speaker 7: Now they'll get to do that, whereas before I gave
them the immigration they may never have.
Speaker 3: Been sure to do that.
Speaker 4: There's that, but there's always people are very territorial and
they kind of want to you know, sort of bring
charge themselves, and that's a lot for them to give up,
being a whole different side. So I think you know
that they are making a sacrifice here, and I understand that.
Speaker 5: You know, obviously it came from your mouth. But at
the end of the day, you.
Speaker 3: Know, they they they want.
Speaker 5: To have closure themselves.
Speaker 4: But you know, I think it's it's working out as
well as can be expected. You know that being said,
they're going to get some heat whenever it is next week?
Is that when the anniversary is? I think it's a
week from today, so, but you know, hopefully we'll have
made some progress by then, you've had.
Speaker 5: Some time to answer your questions about being a letter
all right, right, any other questions for me?
Speaker 3: I don't think so.
Speaker 4: I think, uh, Kevin will be back next week and
I'll be gone, so uh you know, he may wanna
uh kind of chat with you a little bit about Yeah,
I think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so.
Speaker 5: That's okay with you. We'll probably schedule at that point.
Speaker 6: Yeah, alright, some Yeah, I don't I'm sure what.
Speaker 5: BLUs your family be out of town.
Speaker 4: Yeah, schedule wolping outside of speech?
Speaker 3: Alright, thanks?
Speaker 2: Is it really need to hit the uh restaurant n Yeah,
if they did, yeah,