WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.480 --> 00:00:04.719 For members only. Golf Smarter number three hundred and fifty four, 2 00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:07.960 published on October twenty three, twenty twelve. 3 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:13.279 Welcome to Golf Smarter mulligans, your second chance to gain 4 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:16.879 insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the 5 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:22.920 Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets old. Our 6 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:27.800 interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations 7 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:31.480 like this that are no longer available in any podcast app. 8 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:34.359 But when Hogan finished, he shot a seventy in the 9 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:37.200 final round. It was his best score out of the 10 00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:40.759 four rounds. There were very few scores under seventy on 11 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:43.920 that course. It was so difficult, and everybody thought he'd 12 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:48.280 want When he finishes, it's about five after five TVs 13 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:51.079 just come on and Gene Service and comes rushing across 14 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:54.280 the green with the microphone to congratulate Hogan and interview 15 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:57.799 him and basically said, you know, you've won your fifth open. 16 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:00.520 And he even asked Hogan to hold up hand his 17 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:04.319 five fingers to signify five. And what I understand is 18 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:07.040 that Hogan started to do that and then he caught himself. 19 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:08.879 He realized, in a wait of a second, it's not 20 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:12.359 over and he said that, and he finished the interviewed. 21 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:14.560 It was a very short interview, and he walked up 22 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:16.840 the slope to the clubhouse and into the locker room 23 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:19.799 to wait for the official end of the tournament. People 24 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:22.480 thought it was over. He was five shots ahead of 25 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:25.760 Speed and Boll who were tied for second. There's no 26 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:28.400 one else out on the golf course who really even 27 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:33.680 has a mathematical chance except this wine player Jack flex. 28 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:43.319 Hard too on the greatest upset at the nineteen fifty 29 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:44.319 five US Open. 30 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:49.560 This is Golf Smarter, sharing tips and insights from golfers 31 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:53.079 and golf professionals to help lower your score. It's worked 32 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:54.840 for your host, Fred. 33 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.640 Green, Welcome back to Golf Smarter for members only. Neil, 34 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:03.519 it's good, thank you. And we had prepped everybody that 35 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:06.480 we're just gonna go ahead and record straight through and 36 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.879 make the part two seamless, so we can even have 37 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:14.599 a good train of thought. Well, computers are our friends. 38 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:19.759 Except for today and everything that we recorded disappeared, and 39 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:23.439 so here we are. The Luckily Neil was available and 40 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:26.719 we were able to record this just the moments before 41 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:30.360 we were going to publish this episode. So if we 42 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:34.560 are redundant in any way, I seriously apologize, but I'm 43 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:36.840 going to try my hardest not to ask the same 44 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:41.800 questions as I did on episode number one. So, Neil, 45 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:47.199 let's talk about your book, The Longest Shot, Jack Fleck, 46 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:49.919 Ben Hogan and pro Golf's greatest upset at the nineteen 47 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:54.360 fifty five US Open. I wanted to see if we 48 00:02:54.400 --> 00:03:00.800 could go over like how the tournament went by round 49 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:06.919 and knowing that in nineteen fifty five at the US Open, 50 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:11.360 they played four rounds, right, they. 51 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:15.479 Played, Yeah, they played four rounds, and I remember we 52 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:17.520 were touching on this a little bit in part one. 53 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:21.039 They played four rounds in three days, so they played 54 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:26.159 thirty six sols the final day, and they actually did 55 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:31.360 that up until nineteen sixty five. Sixty four was the 56 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:34.680 last time they did that, and that was after kin 57 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:40.520 Venturi won at Congressional in this terrible heat and he 58 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:45.639 practically collapsed. And after that they went to four rounds 59 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:48.680 in four days. But they're still playing thirty six on 60 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:51.520 the final day in nineteen fifty five, and of course 61 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:56.360 in this particular US Open, it went an extra day 62 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:58.719 because they needed a playoff, right. 63 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:01.879 And in that four day, and this is the thing, 64 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:08.199 that blows me away. So Ben Hogan was not well. 65 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:10.560 I guess he was fully recovered, but still he was 66 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:13.800 probably in a lot of pain from the accident or 67 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:16.800 still sufferings from some pain. And he had to walk 68 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:20.920 the entire thirty six holes. And you wouldn't call the 69 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:24.000 Olympic Club in San Francisco a flat golf course. 70 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:30.079 No, it was not an easy walk for him. And 71 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:34.199 he he would get back to his hotel at night 72 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:40.040 and rest. He'd crawl into bed and rest for the 73 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:42.680 next day's round, and then when he got up in 74 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:45.040 the morning he did the same thing. I think ever 75 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:48.480 since the accident. He had this roughly a two hour 76 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:52.160 regimen of prepping himself to go out to the golf 77 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.600 course and play a tournament round of golf. And that 78 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:03.040 was soaking in a hot hot water, bats up for 79 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:05.279 a period of time, and then he rubbed a linament 80 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:08.759 on his legs, he wrapped his legs and elastic vantages, 81 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:11.759 and he kind of suited up almost like a you 82 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:14.480 think of a of a football player or something. But 83 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:16.680 that's what he had to do to go out and 84 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:21.600 play golf. And he walked. You know, players told me, 85 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.399 including Jack Fleck, he He looked a little gimpy. He 86 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:28.480 had a little bit of a limp and his legs 87 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:32.399 get hurt and they they would get stiff. But that's 88 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:34.759 that's what he had to do to play. And he 89 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:38.680 was he was definitely a gamer. He was he didn't 90 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:41.759 want to go another eighteen that's for sure. When they 91 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:44.000 got to the place where it was there's going to 92 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.639 be a playoff, but he went. He went to thirty 93 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:52.160 six holes with the final day and he played a 94 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:53.199 really great tournament. 95 00:05:56.439 --> 00:06:01.560 And you were just talking about, you know, talking to 96 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.639 the people who are the people you know that were 97 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:08.240 there that you had the chance to talk to in 98 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:12.600 doing research for this book. What kind of additional information 99 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:16.240 beyond Jack Fleck, What kind of additional information and insights 100 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:18.399 were you able to get in doing the research for 101 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:18.759 the book. 102 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:24.480 Well, I actually flipped to the page in the acknowledgment, 103 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.680 so I'd feeble to recall the players I talked to. 104 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:33.279 But I talked to airy Ball, who is he's over 105 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:40.399 one hundred, he's still alive. He played there. He's been 106 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:42.920 around so long that he was friend with Bobby Jones. 107 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:44.800 Kid. You not wow? 108 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:49.319 He played at the British Shopen in nineteen thirty when 109 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:53.040 Bobby Jones won what they ended up calling the Grand Slam, 110 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:57.759 so very ball was there. Tommy Bolt, I talked to him. 111 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:07.040 Tommy died I think in eight dal Finzcherwald, Doug Ford, 112 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:11.600 Fred Hawkins, Walker Enman Jr. Who was a good friend 113 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:14.959 the Jackson played within the first two rounds, another friend 114 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:22.480 named Mike Crack, Geene Letler, Shelley Mayfield, Arnold Palmer, Bob Rosberg, 115 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:30.920 and Larry Thomasino. So there were some players, definitely, there's 116 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:35.199 still probably about a dozen or so players around that 117 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:38.240 played that tournament, that played in the nineteen fifty five 118 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:40.519 US Open, And there were a few that I didn't 119 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:44.199 get a chance to talk to, and there were a 120 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.000 few who have passed on since I talked to them. 121 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:50.639 And I was so grateful to be able to talk 122 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:55.959 to Tommy Bolt, who's a Hall of Famer, and Bob Rosberg, 123 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.600 who you know some of your I guess forty and 124 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.399 over listers will remember as a long time on course 125 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:11.720 reporter for ABC. He also passed away not terribly long 126 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:17.199 after I talked to him. And then another club and 127 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:19.959 touring professional named Shelley Mayfield, who in his day was 128 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:23.240 quite a good player and was also a pretty good 129 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:27.839 friend of Ben Hogan's later on. So it was very 130 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:30.319 helpful to be able to talk to them and very 131 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:34.960 interesting to get their perspective on the tournament, this particular 132 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:40.639 tournament on Hogan on the golf course, and how that 133 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:43.639 opened set up, and how difficult it was to play 134 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:45.480 there that week, and the. 135 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:49.440 Stories they were telling you. I can't imagine that Jack 136 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:52.120 Fleck was a big part of their story from what 137 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:54.960 they remember of that weekend until the end. 138 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:03.399 That's true. Some of them knew of Jack. They knew, 139 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:06.919 you know, as we talked about in the first part, 140 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:09.840 Jack had been playing tournament golf, but he wasn't well known, 141 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:12.679 so they might have recognized his name, they might have 142 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:18.320 seen him around in tournaments. But guys like Rosberg, who 143 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:20.759 was a pretty good player, he was fairly young. He 144 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.080 was he was younger than Jack at that time, and 145 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.440 he was kind of trapped as one of the up 146 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:30.480 and comers. He said, he told me, he said, I 147 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:32.759 didn't really know Jack at that time. I didn't know 148 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:34.919 Jack Fleck. He said, I knew who he was, but 149 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:37.759 I hadn't really been around him much. And he got 150 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.000 to know him a lot better later on. In fact, 151 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:43.039 just kind of a little side note. 152 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:45.720 I love the side notes, love the sad notes. 153 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:49.720 Jack's last victory on the PGA Tour, he had three 154 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:55.720 was he beat Bob Rosberg in the Bakersfield Open, and 155 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:58.799 I think his nineteen sixty one in a playoff. So 156 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:01.960 he had to our victories, and one of them came 157 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:07.480 against Rossi, and interestingly too, all of Jack's wins came 158 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:13.639 in playoffs. But now Arnold Palmer, getting back to who 159 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:16.879 I talked to and what they knew of Jack, Arnold 160 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:21.600 told me that he did know Jack, and that kind 161 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.600 of surprised, but he said, I knew who Jack Fluck 162 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:27.279 was and I played golf with him prior to that week. 163 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.240 But what he told me was he said, we all 164 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:35.879 knew Jack was a good player. You know, he was 165 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:38.480 gracious in his comments. He acknowledged that Jack could play, 166 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:40.960 but he said, you know, none of us really thought 167 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:45.159 of him as being an open contender, which made sense 168 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:49.480 because Jack had only played in two opens. He missed 169 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:52.519 the cut and one the other one he'd finished fifty seconds, 170 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:58.679 So he's just kind of coming out of nowhere in 171 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.639 a sense, and some of the other players A couple 172 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.639 of his pals were Walker Im and junior Mike Krack, 173 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.879 who are discussed in the book. Walker is really kind 174 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:15.080 of a prominent character in the book. They're rookies on 175 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:18.320 the tour and they're kind of no namers too really, 176 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:25.480 so uh, most most all these players, they were caught 177 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:27.399 off guard by Jack's performance. 178 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.840 As well, And that's what makes it such a great 179 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:33.200 story because it was it's just the little train that good. 180 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:41.159 I mean, he just came out of nowhere. How many 181 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:42.759 times did Jack win on the tour. 182 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:45.960 Well, he ended up winning. He won three times, and 183 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:47.399 this was his first win. 184 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.039 This is first of three wins on the tour, and 185 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:55.320 each of the three you're saying we're all in playoffs. 186 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.399 They were all in playoffs. He won the thick five 187 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:03.279 US Open, sort of coming out of nowhere and shocking 188 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:09.080 Pogan in the world really, and then he won his 189 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:12.320 next win. He had a bit of a slide after 190 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:17.360 the Open. His game went into decline. 191 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:20.200 In what sense and no please expand on that. 192 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:25.240 Well, he I think like even like you'll see with 193 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:30.759 some players nowadays, he did have some opportunities after he 194 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:35.679 won the Open to do exhibitions. He went to New York. 195 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.279 He was able to sign some endorsement deals. He was 196 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:44.559 like the nineteen fifties version of an instant famous athlete 197 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:48.759 and celebrity for a period of time, and as someone 198 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:54.480 who'd come from fairly humble means, he felt like for 199 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:58.759 his famili's sake, he needed to do what he could 200 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:05.159 to caplies on it. And it was estimated at that 201 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:10.639 time that US Open was worth maybe something like fifty 202 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:16.960 to seventy five thousand dollars in terms of opportunities, financial 203 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:24.960 opportunities of course, income exhibitions, endorsement deals and the like. Well, 204 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:29.039 that was pretty good money. And so he wanted to 205 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:31.039 be able to do that stuff. And I think, like 206 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:32.720 a lot of players, he thought he'd be able to 207 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:36.320 maintain his game. And he was trumpeted for a while 208 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:39.159 in the press too. Is this this player who'd beaten 209 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.240 the greatest player in the game. But it got him 210 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.000 off track somewhat, it got him out of his routine, 211 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:51.399 and it definitely affected his game. So he doesn't his 212 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:58.080 game doesn't really He goes off the tracks somewhat, and 213 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:03.600 once things kind of die down, he really starts to 214 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:08.080 get back on track. In the late fifties, and in 215 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:12.639 nineteen sixty he got his second win on tour at 216 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:18.240 the Phoenix Open, and that arguably was his best year 217 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:20.720 in golf in terms of his play, even though he 218 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:23.320 didn't he didn't win something like the US Open that year, 219 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:27.039 he was very competitive and he probably could have easily 220 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:28.399 won three times that year. 221 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:39.440 Yeah, I've talked to one other PGA player I'm blanking 222 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:42.039 on his name right now that I got a chance 223 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.120 to play with him. But he played for twenty years 224 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.279 on the tour and he was complaining he only won 225 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:50.559 four times, and it's like you won four times on 226 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:54.120 the tour. Yeah, but I played in almost two hundred events. 227 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:57.679 But so when you say it was his best year, 228 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:02.840 he had top five top ten finishes that year. Not 229 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:05.360 only winning the Phoenix Opened was his third win also 230 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:08.679 in nineteen sixty. 231 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:11.559 He won his third win in the following year in 232 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:15.519 nineteen sixty one. But this is one of interesting things 233 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:20.879 about trying to figure out more about Jack Fleck and 234 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:22.919 even some of these other players who I didn't know 235 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:26.399 as well. You know, I'd heard of Tommy Bolton versus 236 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:29.840 Ogan and Snead and Fince Jerwold, some of these guys 237 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:34.519 i'd heard of, but Fleck and Hawkins and these some 238 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.519 of these other players who were they were good enough 239 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:40.720 players to play out there, you just haven't heard much 240 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:42.879 about them because they didn't win a lot. And then 241 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:46.639 what you find out was that they had some near misses. 242 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.679 And Jack, if you look at his PGA tour record, 243 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:55.799 I think he had over two hundred and forty starts, 244 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:02.200 and he had something he had over forty top tens. 245 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.840 I've got it right here. He had five. He had 246 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:09.840 five seconds, so five runner up finishes in his career, 247 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:15.240 six thirds and forty one top tens. And one of 248 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.360 the interesting things I think, at least when you read 249 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.080 this book, the fifty five Open and the dramatic playoffs 250 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.480 and all of that, how that all came about is detailed, 251 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:29.200 and that in itself, I think is a terrific story. 252 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.559 But there are also a few chapters that follow it, 253 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:39.840 and we follow Hogan and Fleck after there's an aftermath, 254 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.320 and I tell the story that some of your listeners 255 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.120 will probably know about the nineteen sixty US Open play 256 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:51.720 to Cherry Hills, which is where Palmer came back in 257 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:55.720 the last round from seven strokes behind and one that 258 00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:59.399 was maybe that might have been the greatest US Open 259 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.360 ever played, just because it was so exciting. There were 260 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.799 so many guys that had a chance. But I detail 261 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:09.759 that Open as well because Hogan and Fleck are on 262 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:16.920 the scene and with literally a few holes left to play, 263 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:23.599 they're right there. They're at one point, Hogan, Fleck, and 264 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:27.839 Palmer are tie in the final round with you know, 265 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:32.039 not many holes left. A lot of people probably might 266 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.119 not know that Jack Fleck very nearly won another Open 267 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:41.839 and Hogan had another. He had at least two more 268 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:46.039 very good opportunities to win that record fifth Open after 269 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:48.839 you lost the Jack at Olympic in nineteen fifty five. 270 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:54.200 So it's it's fascinating, really and I wanted to be 271 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:59.400 able to tell that because myself, when I researched this, 272 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:05.200 you finished the playoff and you reached this this exciting finish, 273 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:08.119 and it's a tragedy for Hogan and it's this great 274 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:12.440 achievement for the underdog Fleck. And then to me, at least, 275 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.319 I thought, what happens to Jack Fleck after he wins 276 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:21.680 the Open? What happens to Hogan Logan at the ceremony afterwards? 277 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:25.880 In an Olympic in nineteen fifty five announced his retirement 278 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:32.279 from golf. WHOA, he was really disappointed, but that retirement didn't. 279 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:33.359 Last very long obviously. 280 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:36.440 Yeah, he was back to the Masters the next spring. 281 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:40.119 He just you know, he lived to play tournament golf. 282 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:44.680 Yeah, yeah, but he was deflated. So when Palmer won 283 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:49.359 in nineteen sixty, it was And again I really think 284 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.480 that we covered this the first time. We did part 285 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:53.680 two of this conversation, so I want to get into 286 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:56.359 it in some depth. And please, if you remember me 287 00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:59.079 talking about it in the first part, stopped me. But 288 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:06.440 in nineteen sixty, when Palmer wins it, the media coverage 289 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:09.240 is dramatically different than it was in nineteen fifty five, 290 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.440 especially the television coverage, correct. 291 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:20.000 I think, so I didn't look into data as closely 292 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:21.279 as I looked at fifty five. 293 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:24.640 Well, then let's talk about the nineteen fifty five. What 294 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.920 television coverage was in nineteen fifty five, and what happened 295 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:30.720 specifically with the US Open that year on TV. 296 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:36.359 I think one of the fascinating things about this tournament 297 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:42.720 was with NBC covering it. It's the second national telecasts 298 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.440 of the US Open, the third national telecasts of any 299 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:49.920 golf tournament, and they have an hour of coverage on 300 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:54.200 the final day, which is Saturday. It's not Sunday, it's Saturday. 301 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:59.480 They're playing thirty six goals and Lindsey Nelson is the 302 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.160 announced and Gene Sarazon, golf legend who had won the 303 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:07.400 US Open, is doing the color commentary. And it's a lot. 304 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:16.200 It's definitely primitive television by our modern view of TV. 305 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:22.880 But they have an hour of coverage and it's from 306 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:31.319 five o'clock to six o'clock Pacific time. And Hogan. We 307 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:35.720 may have talked about this before, but what was interesting 308 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:42.519 back in those days TV didn't dictate as much how 309 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:47.640 these tournaments were played and even how the pairings were 310 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:52.039 set up and what went on. And at that time 311 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:57.640 was when you went out on the final day as 312 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:02.480 a player, whoever they paired you in the third round, 313 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:06.759 you just kept going with that guy. They didn't repair 314 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:10.000 after the third round, which the fourth round has played 315 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.319 the same day in the afternoon, so it wasn't they 316 00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:18.440 didn't reorder anyone or repair anyone based on score. So 317 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:24.039 Jack is actually behind Jack Fleck is behind Hogan. Jack 318 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:28.359 Fleck's paired with Jean Leitler, They're only about three groups 319 00:21:28.359 --> 00:21:33.000 behind him, and Hogan's paired with a fellow named Bob Harris, 320 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:38.240 and he finishes an hour before Jack Fleck. And when 321 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:43.359 he finishes, the television coverage is just coming on. So 322 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.480 it works out really well. And I have a sense 323 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:50.680 that maybe the USGA had Snead, who was up there too, 324 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:53.200 in contention until he sort of faltered a little bit 325 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:56.400 down the stretch. Snead and Hogan and some of the 326 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.880 other those players had them. They're top set up so 327 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:04.880 that they would finish during the television cutach. But when 328 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.240 Hogan finished, he shot a seventy in the final round. 329 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:12.319 It was his best score out of the four rounds. 330 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:16.200 There were very few scores under seventy on that course. 331 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:21.920 It was so difficult, and everybody thought he'd won. When 332 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:26.279 he finishes, it's about five after five TVs just come on, 333 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:29.599 and Jean says and comes rushing across the green with 334 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:35.640 a microphone to congratulate Hogan and interview him, and basically 335 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.599 more or less said, you know, you've won your fifth Open. 336 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:44.359 And he even asked Hogan to hold up his hand 337 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:49.240 to signify five, hold up his hand in his five 338 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:53.759 thinkers and what I understand is that Hogan started to 339 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.559 do that, and then he caught himself. He realized, you know, 340 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.759 wait a second, you know this, it's not over, And 341 00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:05.839 he said that and he went. He finished the interviewed 342 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.200 it with a very short interview, and he walked up 343 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.480 the slope to the clubhouse and into the locker room 344 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:14.880 to wait for the official end of the tournament and 345 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:19.240 got an ovation, and people thought it was over. He 346 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.559 was five shots a head of Snead and both who 347 00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:27.440 were tied for second. Those are the scores in the clubhouse. 348 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:31.039 There's no one else out on the golf course who 349 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:36.000 has a chance, who really even has a mathematical chance, 350 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:40.200 except this one player. Jack flex. 351 00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:50.880 How many strokes was fleck back when Hogan finished? Approximately? 352 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:56.480 Jack, You know, they didn't. I really sort of had 353 00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:59.200 to try to piece that together with the research because 354 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:02.559 they didn't have the sort of the modern scoring in 355 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:05.839 the real time scoring that they do now. But as 356 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:13.519 best I could figure out Hogan's finishing and flecks around 357 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:16.039 the eleventh or calf fole, and he's about an hour 358 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:22.160 behind Hogan. And at that point when Jack finally got 359 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:26.359 confirmation that Hogan was finished, and in the clubhouse at 360 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:29.119 two eighty seven. There was a marshall out on the 361 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:31.480 golf course with a walkie talkie and he came and 362 00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:35.400 sold Jack when Jack came off the thirteenth green, And. 363 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:38.079 If I'm not mistaken, walkie talkies in nineteen fifty five 364 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:42.359 was a two tin cans with a string in between, right, Well, 365 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:43.519 you know, I. 366 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:46.960 Think the winks were actually these were actually pretty good 367 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:51.079 walkie talkies because they were made by the Motorola Company, 368 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:55.200 and I think they were like army walkie talkies. Okay, 369 00:24:55.319 --> 00:25:00.759 this represented somewhat advanced technology for that time time period. 370 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:04.599 But Jack finds out when he walks off the thirteenth 371 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:08.359 green that Hogan is in the clubhouse at two eighty seven, 372 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.880 and Jack is one shot behind as he walks to 373 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:20.720 the fourteenth tee and this marshal named George Tompkins, he's 374 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:23.799 a volunteer. He got an acquainted with Jack during the 375 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:27.799 week and he's kind of excited and he says to Jack, 376 00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:33.880 all you need is a birdie over this last stretch 377 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:38.079 and you can tie Hogan. And Gene Lettler, who was 378 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:45.319 Jack's playing partner that whole day and is a very reserved, 379 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:49.400 quiet guy, doesn't usually say a lot. He overheard that 380 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:55.000 comment and he said, Drolie, he said, he'll need a 381 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:55.880 few cars too. 382 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.079 So he just he needs over the last six seven holes, 383 00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:05.960 he needs one birdy and to par out the rest 384 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:10.960 and he's now he'll get to be tied or that'll 385 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:11.680 give him the lead. 386 00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:18.279 When he steps on the fourteenth key, he needs he 387 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.960 needs one bird in the rest. Pars to ty Hogan 388 00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:24.400 the time. Okay, yeah, and so this is over the 389 00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:27.000 last five holes of a really brutal golf course. 390 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:29.279 So take us through the last five holes, because the 391 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:32.279 last couple of holes at Olympic are just deadly. 392 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.839 Yeah, and they were. They were playing seventeen that year 393 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:42.039 as a par five. No excuse me, it was a 394 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:42.880 part five. 395 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:44.119 But they playing its part four. 396 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:46.559 Change that it played it as a par four, and 397 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.400 it was. This was a This was a very difficult 398 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:50.319 finishing stretch. 399 00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:52.240 Yeah, so it still is. 400 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:56.000 First the first hole is fourteenth, it's a par four, 401 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.839