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Speaker 1: What is up, fella, Sikos.

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Speaker 2: I am Dana Valley coming at you with the one,

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the only, the certify fantabulous mister Grant Hughes, who is

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a static to talk about tanking once again. This is

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We've we already did a tanking.

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Speaker 1: Episodes months ago.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it was topical then, but this

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is our version of last month tonight. It's where the

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tanking discourse after the fines and the enforcements they've kind

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of petered out. We want to get our thoughts on

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the record, especially about some of the solutions that have

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been proposed.

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Speaker 1: First and foremost, though, mister Hughes, how the heck are you?

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Speaker 3: I am unlike a lot of NBA teams right now

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that produce this discussion. I'm not stacking losses. Uh so

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you know, I'm just living my best life and just

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trying to win every day. So try try it, Jazz,

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see how it feels.

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Speaker 2: So the kind of the impetus for this is, I

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want to know do you think the NBA is going

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too far with its mid season course correction? And by

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this we're gonna get into the lottery reform that's coming

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after this season. But there seems to be they've identified

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the Jazz get the ire of more than any team.

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It feels like, I mean, the half a million dollar

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fine was huge, and they've probably been the most egregious

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when because what's more egregious the Wizards just not playing

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Trey Young, Anthony Davis seems legit injured, or the Jazz

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at one point not playing Jared Jackson Junior and Loarry

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Market in fourth quarters when when games are.

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Speaker 1: On the line.

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Speaker 2: But the NBA finding we're hearing more, at least intel's

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being leaked, more informations being leaked about the process by

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which the NBA's impartial doctors are evaluating players. There was

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Rick Carlile's story about they had an NBA doctor appoint

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The doctor ask can't you just medicate Aaron E.

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Speaker 1: Smith one.

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Speaker 2: The NBA did kind of come out and rebuke the

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recollection of that, which, again, Rick Carlisle is the PACER's

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head coach. He has a clear interest in that, but

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it's also just kind of cringey. I'm sure it's been

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asked before, but it's just could you medicate him.

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Speaker 1: To rub some wind decks on it?

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Speaker 2: And Ken is going to be ready to go, but

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they're making like Adam Silver getting big mad at All

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Star Weekend or as mad as you could picture him getting.

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I understand that tanking is a problem, but this is

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the system that the NBA is set up right now,

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and if they're gonna enforce this and want to start

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levying fines, can we do it across the board?

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Speaker 1: Then why is it just in these certain instances.

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Speaker 3: I think that's the best criticism of what's gone on

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is that it's in that particular sense it is unfair

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because the Jazz are being punished for behavior that is

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either being directly copied or things are happening elsewhere that are,

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though slightly different, just as offensive or just as big

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of a problem. So to me, yes, it is unfair

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that certain teams have been fined or had fingers pointed

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at them in ways that like a third of the

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league could could certainly be subject to the same kinds

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of punishments, I guess, or the same sort of attention

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from the league. That said, I think the mid season

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course correction, which is like the league does this, by

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the way, whether it's how they enforce certain fouls, We've

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seen it several times where the rule is the rule

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and then we decide we don't really care for foulbating

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in this particular manner, and so we're gonna start calling

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these fouls all the time. But we didn't tell the

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refs to do it. We just made it happen somehow.

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So that concept's not new. And I think in both cases,

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like if it's on the court or if it's with

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respect to how teams are behaving roster building wise, if

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it's a problem, address it. And it's a problem, and

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every maybe more than anything else, fans are talking about it,

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and the news cycle is covering it, and it's a

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bad look. I think everyone would agree the concept that

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losing is good. Uh So I think it's it's within

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the league's best interests to try to fix it as

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best it can. And if the result is like this

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is being unfairly enforced, the league is clearly okay with that.

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But I think because it's such a hot topic and

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it's it's I don't know, like of the big stories

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of the twenty five to twenty six season is tanking

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in the top five in terms of like calories burned,

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words written, you know, hours discussed, it's up there. So

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that's bad and so the league needs to do something

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to address it, and if it's addressing it this way

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midstream unfairly, I think that's better than pretending it's not

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happening or not doing anything at all, Like does that

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do you know what I mean? Like, I think it's

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a big enough issue that you've got to at least

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make it look like you care about it and are

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gonna address it, which is like what the Adam Silver

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regime has has like excelled in across the board is

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like we're aware of the issue and we're studying it.

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They always that's that's how they address everything, and now

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it's like going a step farther. I do actually think

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that he Silver and the league and maybe owners, I

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guess care about it because when we talked about this

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last time, the reason it's such an issue is that

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it goes to the core of the value of the

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NBA as an entertainment product, Like the integrity of competition

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is so singularly important that if half the games after

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a certain point of the season don't matter at all

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because nobody's trying, Like that's that's unsustainable. You can't have that.

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So that's a long winded answer. I think it's the

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rules are being enforced unfairly. But I'm okay with it

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because the problem is big enough that you have to

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do something.

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Speaker 1: I would agree.

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Speaker 2: I agree that it's a problem, but I also just

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I can't it feels as if selective outrage or it

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is definitely selective enforcement, much like we've seen with tampering.

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And you mentioned the fouls as well, and so why

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aren't we seeing more fines now.

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Speaker 1: Across the board.

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Speaker 2: Why isn't it Why did you structure the player participation

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policy to only encompass all stars but not all NBA players,

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So like a Zubots can sit, that's that's fine, But

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like Welle.

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Speaker 3: So I think the reason I'm okay, I won't be

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okay with what's happening right now if there aren't meaningful

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changes made in the off season and that affect next year,

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like immediately, which is what's been discussed, because then it's

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just we're just trying to put the fires out, like

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pr wise, we'll throw a FI, we'll throw a big

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fine here, We'll like we'll do a couple of little

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things that make it seem like we're taking the problem seriously.

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Then if that's not followed up with like some of

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the things we're going to discuss actually being implemented. Then

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this has all been total bullshit, like and I'm I'm

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like livid about it because it is a problem that

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needs fixed. Is a messaging like they're going to fix

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it that needs to get followed up on in a

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big way.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely a problem.

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Speaker 2: Matt Ishbia had tweeted about it, and he wasn't wrong, Like,

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tanking is a huge problem and it does bring it

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into a question the integrity of the game. But why

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wasn't the NBA's response similar to when we had let's

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even just use the John Say Porter Junior or Terry

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Rozier gambling scandals as to why isn't the solution Should

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we maybe pull back get sportsbooks to pull back on

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individual player props because those could impact the integrity of

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the game. It's money, and it just this isn't the

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business interest. I don't like to spin that this is

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for This is for the fans who if you're paying

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a lot of money to go to games, if you're

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paying a lot of money to consume the NBA across

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a bunch of different platforms. Yeah, I want the best

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players to play too. I want, in an ideal world

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that every team would be competing.

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Speaker 1: Wire to wire.

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Speaker 2: But I also am kind of sensitive to the fact

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that we'll get into this with some of the solutions

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that I don't look at the NBA for like as

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a moral arbiter, but it just I don't I don't

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like the like they're they're not picking it random, so

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to speak, but the selection process behind, how it's being enforced,

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or how they're addressing it in the middle of the season.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying they should be allowed to make change.

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Speaker 2: I don't think they should be allowed to make changes

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to the lottery system in the middle of the year.

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You can even argue for teams that traded away draft

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picks out into the future did so under the current

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lottery system, and so now you're about to change it

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when they have still made certain deals. So again, I'm

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all for addressing it. I just can't, is it you.

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Matt Ishbia said that this is a bigger problem than

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any gambling scandal scandal, and now when it gets into

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the frequency of it, I agree, because tanking isn't I mean.

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Speaker 1: I actually I hope I agree.

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Speaker 2: If all these gambling scandals are happening with the frequency

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with which tanking does we have a we have a

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real problem. But if I'm a fan, as a fan

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of the game, the idea that players could be manipulating

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their own lines or their veil ability where there's money involved,

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that like the common person is not just losing a ticket,

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but if they've maybe you shouldn't or maybe do you

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take the stands up? Well, I mean people make those

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bets knowing that there's a risk now because players could

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manipulate their lines. But you could also say, well, that's

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why you buy a ticket. When you buy a ticket,

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you kind of know, like I don't did this team

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play a few days ago?

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Speaker 1: It's the fans are the fans should come first. I'm

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just sensitive to.

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Speaker 2: The idea that that's not actually true here. I don't

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believe that that's what this is really about. I think

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that if I think that, if it didn't align more

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so with the league wanting to just like when you're

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looking at its actual interest with gambling companies who are

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making these lines and trying to figure out which players

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are playing, or there are individual lines in games where

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do we cake in that lowry market is not going

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to play in the fourth quarter and how much harder

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does it get for that to do their job. I

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really wonder if sports betting wasn't legal yet in the

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United States, if the NBA would be as let's just

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use it like as big mad and I mean the NBA,

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or I don't even want to say proactive, let's say reactive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so like let's let's like pull the threads on

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that a little bit. Because my my gut reaction to

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your question is, well, yeah, they'd still be just as

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concerned with tanking if gambling were a factor or if

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it weren't. Because to me, and maybe this is naive,

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you can as you explain the link, maybe I'll change

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my opinion. But to me, the the reason tanking is

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a problem is because from the fans perspective, this isn't

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about the fan that buys the tickets two months in

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advance and shows up and their favorite player doesn't play.

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Speaker 1: That to me is.

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Speaker 3: Always like, yeah, that that happens.

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Speaker 1: To me.

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Speaker 3: The bigger fan related concern is if tanking is allowed

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to just run rampant, people tune out and you lose

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fans like en Mass because these these this huge subsection

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of teams aren't trying, and it's not just like, oh,

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I came to the game tonight and I didn't see

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my player. It's like I'm not watching the last forty

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games of my team season, I'm not buying league pass,

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I'm not spending my money this way, Like the league

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becomes less valuable as fan interest declines towards a product

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that is substandard because nobody's trying their hardest for like

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a large chunk of the year. That to me is

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like the fan argument, and I think that exists whether

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there's gambling or not. So I'm curious how you if

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you think that gambling is more related to the tanking

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concerns or faux concerns than I do. And if so, like.

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Speaker 1: How to draw that are you saying? So?

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Speaker 2: What are you saying is the biggest impetus for the

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NBA behind its concern I.

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Speaker 3: Think the league is most concerned with tanking because it's

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a It is potentially going to cost it integrity and

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ultimately money. If fans in large groups determine that there's

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no point in paying at ten to this league for

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a large chunk of teams for a large chunk of

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the season, is that I think.

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Speaker 1: I think that's it, and I would agree with I'm so.

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Speaker 2: I guess my question more so was then why isn't

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there because couldn't you argue that the scale at which

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people would tune out if they think that games are

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being manipulated and you don't. At least with tanking, it's

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front and center and overt, you know who's tanking. But

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when it comes to these gambling which again to be

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to be fair, they are rarer. But because of like

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the illicitness or the covertness behind it, you're going to

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not have as much knowledge as to well, what game

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is at risk or should I tune out of? And

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it's it's not just as a sport's better that I'm

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looking at it through the lens of I'm saying, if

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the idea of a gambling scandal to me, or a

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player manipulating their own prop lines brings into real question

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just the integrity of the sport at large, don't you

255
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risk tuning people?

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Speaker 1: And the NBA didn't do anything to address that.

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Speaker 3: So when when these things cropped up prop it's undeniably worse.

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If if there's a broad but interception that games are fixed,

259
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that's that's the worst possible sure, that's a bigger problem,

260
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and so why aren't you Why wouldn't that And I'm

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not here to debate really debate which one's worse. I'm

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just I would say, at the least the idea of them,

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wouldn't they be similarly urgent? Or is it just because

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tanking happens at a larger scale right now even though

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we know about it versus the idea of this, even

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though we've witnessed what could happen?

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Speaker 1: And I mean whether you think.

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Speaker 2: That, Okay, Johntay Porter, Terry Rozier, those lines didn't necessarily

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change the outcome of games, but it lays the groundwork,

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the breadcrumbs for people to think that why didn't you

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nip that in the bud beyond well, Johntay Porter's band, Well.

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Speaker 3: What does that look like? So at first I would say,

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I want to ask what that like?

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Speaker 2: So the nc DOUAA has made they've campaigned a lot

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to remove college player props because they think, even with

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the nil rights deals, that those players are going to

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be more the student athletes are going to be more

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susceptible to maybe being bought off whatever itscribed, because they're

279
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not making us most of these people are not making

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it and they're younger.

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Speaker 3: And stupider and don't assess risk correctly. Yeah, right, sure, And.

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Speaker 2: So it's more because you could make the same argument

283
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this stuff has happened, and there's that if anyone listening

284
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to the Pabulatory finds out podcast recently where Antonio Blakeney

285
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was apparently recruiting college players to like help on these schemes,

286
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it's not you don't believe as of right now that

287
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it's happening across every game, but it seems like the

288
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idea of it is enough to have the NZ double

289
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a concern. I'm not pro NC double A here, which

290
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was I don't have a problem with, like if they

291
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were gonna have a problem with college players getting played,

292
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that's not something I had an issue with. I just

293
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find it. I don't know if the word it's I

294
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don't know what the word is. And I understand that

295
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tanking is more prevalent as an issue, But if we're

296
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really concerned about the integrity of the game, shouldn't the

297
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league be making more of an effort to address every

298
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nook and cranny of that integrity. And but you're never

299
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gonna see them say like we can't have like sports

300
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but like or, you're never gonna say have them excuse me,

301
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You're never gonna say what MLB did in response to

302
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I think I want to say it was Ohio maybe

303
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where they came to a deal where they capped the

304
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bets that could be placed on like per pitch wagers.

305
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Speaker 1: It's like d NBA didn't do anything.

306
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Speaker 2: To the best of my knowledge, Maybe I'm like, that's

307
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a blind spot for me if I missed that. We

308
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didn't see any type of reaction like that. And so

309
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I look at what tanking is, which is teams legally

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taking advantage of a system that.

311
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Speaker 1: You put in place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I find I don't find the reaction outsized. But

313
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I do think that if you're gonna selectively not enforce

314
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just tanking, but you're gonna selectively address issues of integrity

315
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with the game, it just rings hollow to me. And

316
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I say all this by saying, but I say all

317
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this with the intention of admitting, yeah, there needs to

318
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be like reform this offseason.

319
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Speaker 1: For sure, there needs to be tanking reform.

320
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Speaker 3: I think there's a there's a couple. So the cynical

321
00:16:06,279 --> 00:16:11,000
take would be tanking does does not create a new

322
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revenue stream for the NBA. Gambling does. So you're gonna

323
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treat those pretty differently because your monetary incentives are one

324
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has some and one doesn't. And so that's the reason

325
00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:27,759
that gambling hasn't gotten the same kind of treatment that

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tanking has.

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Speaker 1: The other the same reason.

328
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Speaker 2: If you really cared about the integrity of the sport

329
00:16:32,559 --> 00:16:35,480
or wanted to maximize the integrity the competition level of

330
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,240
the sport, we will never talk We will never will

331
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,240
suggest it. We'll never talk about shortening the season. That'll

332
00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:43,559
never be something. Well, that's not just the chin that's

333
00:16:43,559 --> 00:16:45,519
a players union thing, sure too.

334
00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:49,679
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and the other thing a couple other things. So

335
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,840
I also don't think the NBA believes that it has

336
00:16:55,919 --> 00:17:00,360
a gambling problem, and I think that belief is probably wrecked.

337
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I think there have been isolated incidents that have been uncovered,

338
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:09,720
and I think that if the problem we're bigger man

339
00:17:09,799 --> 00:17:12,640
is there in interest in figuring that out and publicizing

340
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,279
it from journalists and from whoever? Right right? Like, I

341
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,599
think like it's just like any it's hard to keep

342
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,640
that stuff quiet because it takes a lot of people,

343
00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:23,559
and there's a lot of So I don't think the

344
00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:26,240
gambling problem is actually that big of a problem. I

345
00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:29,640
think we're aware of the big stuff. Probably that could

346
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be naive.

347
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Speaker 2: I don't know, No, I would agree there's probably definitely

348
00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:35,279
a ton of stuff are not aware of, But I

349
00:17:35,279 --> 00:17:38,400
would agree with you it's more so the idea, the

350
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:39,599
spirit behind it.

351
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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think the last thing that's different is that, well,

352
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,640
I guess that would cut the other way, because what

353
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,640
I was gonna say is the tanking is different because

354
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,759
even if you view it as a problem as a

355
00:17:56,799 --> 00:17:59,440
fan of a particular team, you can acknowledge that it's

356
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,079
like the career way to operate somehow, you know, Like right,

357
00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:04,759
I bet there are a lot of Jazz fans that

358
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:08,319
are like, leave us alone. We're cooking, like we're trying

359
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,720
to lose. I want this, I want this to happen.

360
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,799
So that's that complicates it a little bit because there

361
00:18:14,839 --> 00:18:18,279
is a pretty decent section of fans that are like, yeah,

362
00:18:18,279 --> 00:18:22,359
I get it that this is okay by me. But

363
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,079
I think broadly, you just as a league, you've got

364
00:18:25,079 --> 00:18:28,079
to figure out a way to incentivize winning and disincentivize losing.

365
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,119
It's a competitive endeavor, like the goal should be to win.

366
00:18:31,319 --> 00:18:34,400
That's like the simplification of it to it's like, you know,

367
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,519
absolute bottom level. So should we talk solutions?

368
00:18:38,599 --> 00:18:40,640
Speaker 1: Just so we came up.

369
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,359
Speaker 2: Everyone should go check out the tanking episode we did

370
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,599
where we proposed a but we must have went through

371
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,319
like twenty different solutions, but there was like seven or

372
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,240
so that we're mentioned in Shan Sharrania's piece for ESPN

373
00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:54,880
about this. So let's go through them and see whether

374
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,200
you we like them or not. And some of them

375
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,160
could be made in conjunction with each other. But the

376
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,880
first one, and everyone just seems to assume this is

377
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,519
gonna happen, is first round draft picks in trades can

378
00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:10,240
be protected only for top four selections or top fourteen

379
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,880
plus selections.

380
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,599
Speaker 3: What does that solve exactly? Just I mean, I know

381
00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:16,720
we know it would solve.

382
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,880
Speaker 1: So what we've seen with the Jazz this year, there's no.

383
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,440
Speaker 2: Top eight right like pick the protection, so they're not

384
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,960
trying to keep that one, or with the Sixers last year.

385
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,119
My gut reaction and I think it's fine to do this,

386
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,160
but I said when we recorded that tanking episode, I

387
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:33,799
think I did it from a perspective. I'm kind of

388
00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:35,960
tired of having to keep track of all these different

389
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:36,960
pick protections.

390
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 3: That's that's that's a factor. Sorry.

391
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 2: I I think if you have a top four protected pick,

392
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,559
it's not gonna dissuade me from tanking. If anything, I'm

393
00:19:45,559 --> 00:19:47,440
gonna be more egregious about it to try and keep

394
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:48,400
the top four protected.

395
00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:51,759
Speaker 3: But you're not gonna do it. You're what that does

396
00:19:51,839 --> 00:19:58,200
the theoretically? Is it for who? For whom it makes

397
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,680
the most sense to tank? It makes so your jazz

398
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,200
the jazz, like you said, like the jazz situation is

399
00:20:05,279 --> 00:20:07,920
less likely to occur, right, because it's either top four,

400
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,400
it's top fourteen. If you're going to be in that

401
00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:13,400
middle chunk, it makes less sense to tank. Like that's

402
00:20:13,559 --> 00:20:16,559
I guess that's the main You're You're trimming out a

403
00:20:16,599 --> 00:20:19,160
section of potential tankers with that, right, is that it?

404
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think what are you addressing more? Is it

405
00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:26,279
are teams less likely to lean into mid season tanks

406
00:20:26,279 --> 00:20:29,319
because it's so hard to actually get towards the bottom

407
00:20:29,319 --> 00:20:30,920
of the barrel by the end of the season, that

408
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,759
if you have only a top four protected pick, Is

409
00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:36,119
that what they're hoping they'll look at it? Or couldn't

410
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,240
teams just I think it might increase the number of

411
00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:41,319
teams that go into any given season thinking they need

412
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,640
to be just awful from the start.

413
00:20:44,039 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean so, I guess my reaction to

414
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,480
that one is that's probably a pretty good, straightforward component

415
00:20:52,319 --> 00:20:55,039
for a few basic reasons, one of which is, like

416
00:20:55,079 --> 00:20:57,759
you said, it's just confusing with all these like arcane

417
00:20:57,799 --> 00:21:00,920
pick protections, let's just simplify it. And then the upshot

418
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,839
also is that, like you just have again, like I'll

419
00:21:04,839 --> 00:21:07,720
say it again, you're trimming the field of teams for

420
00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:09,880
whom it makes sense to tank in a certain way

421
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,759
that we really don't like I think is how I

422
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,359
put it. That's fine, I think I think you do it.

423
00:21:17,079 --> 00:21:19,839
Speaker 2: Next one up is lottery odds freeze at the trade

424
00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:21,599
deadline or a later date.

425
00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 3: So this is just any any type of anti tanking

426
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,480
measure like this to me, just makes a different section

427
00:21:33,559 --> 00:21:38,000
of the season meaningless. Does that make like it moving

428
00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:41,640
the date? I feel like I make the case for

429
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,759
it because to me, it's just kind of like you're

430
00:21:43,759 --> 00:21:46,519
not solving the problem. You're just changing when teams are tanking.

431
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,799
Speaker 2: If it's if you're straight locking them, I actually don't

432
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,440
understand it. Because I think what you're doing is front

433
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,319
loading the most egregious tank jobs. And then after the fact,

434
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,440
if you're only dealing with the threat of fines, why Okay,

435
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,799
losing won't help your lottery odds, but what is winning

436
00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:05,400
gonna do?

437
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 1: Would you rather pick up a few extra wins.

438
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,279
Speaker 2: Or rest lowry market and Jared Jackson Junior is that

439
00:22:11,279 --> 00:22:13,160
they don't get injured before next season when you plan

440
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,200
on mattering.

441
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't don't care for it. It doesn't It doesn't

442
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,519
seem it's not a solution really to me.

443
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't like although we do have a spin

444
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,039
on it, and we came up with it, but we've

445
00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:25,200
expanded upon it, so we'll drop that at the end.

446
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,400
This one next up no longer allowing a team to

447
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,359
pick in the top four in consecutive years and or

448
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,880
after consecutive Botto three finishes.

449
00:22:35,079 --> 00:22:39,799
Speaker 3: I don't love this kind of approach either, because it.

450
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 2: Got extended to at least give them two years before

451
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,319
considering anything like this, right.

452
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,839
Speaker 3: So I don't know, just in general, like, is this

453
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,480
addressing the kind of tanking we don't like, because because

454
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,359
sometimes it takes multiple years to rebuild, right, and sometimes

455
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:57,039
the Wizards.

456
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 2: Wouldn't the Wizards be a good example here to where

457
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,759
Now it's because they made these acquisitions at the trade deadline,

458
00:23:02,759 --> 00:23:05,960
and there it seems as if they're holding one or

459
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,240
both of them out even though maybe they could play.

460
00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:11,240
But before this, it was it didn't matter who the

461
00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:14,680
Wizards benched or played. They were just going to be

462
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,559
organically terrible relative to the rest of the league.

463
00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:21,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, so what's read the phrasing one more time, just

464
00:23:21,559 --> 00:23:24,240
because I don't want to speak on it without.

465
00:23:24,279 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 2: Making allowing a team So you can't have a top

466
00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:34,559
four pick in consecutive years or after consecutive bottom three finishes,

467
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,519
and that's brutal because what if you just have consecutive

468
00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:40,039
bottom three finishes but never had a top four pick.

469
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 3: So the other issue with this one that gets trotted

470
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,160
out a lot, which I think has some resonance, is

471
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,599
if you know, as Team X, that Team Y is

472
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,680
going to be disqualified terrible team why is disqualified from

473
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,799
picking high in the draft, and you're, as Team X,

474
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,440
like better than that, aren't, you may be more incentivized

475
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,400
to tank than you would otherwise be because you don't

476
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,680
have to like there's that open and.

477
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: Say, oh, there's two teams that can.

478
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, you have a pretty decent, relatively decent

479
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,000
team that says, here's our here's our opportunity. That's not great.

480
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,720
I don't think. I think that that's not It's kind

481
00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:20,480
of similar to just moving the portion of the season

482
00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:25,160
that's meaningless. It's like just moving the tank incentive somewhere

483
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,559
around the standings if those bottom teams are disqualified. Also, like,

484
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:31,359
I don't know, the point of the draft is to

485
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,759
help a bad team get better, and sometimes teams are

486
00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:36,640
so bad that like a couple cracks at it isn't

487
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,000
gonna cut it. You know.

488
00:24:38,319 --> 00:24:41,599
Speaker 2: It's so dependent on draft classes too.

489
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 3: Right, right, Like the Wizards are pissed we got number

490
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,960
two in the Alex Saar draft. Like that's okay, great,

491
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,759
Like that's yeah. I don't know. Those those solutions are

492
00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:54,079
coming at it from different angles, but they to me

493
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,759
feel similar similarly ineffective.

494
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 2: I feel like this one is going to be called

495
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,759
the Indie on a Pacers rule. But teams can't pick

496
00:25:01,799 --> 00:25:03,640
in the top four of the year after making the

497
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,680
conference finals. I don't, right, I hate this one. I'm

498
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,720
gonna say because there are two things I know. A

499
00:25:09,759 --> 00:25:11,559
lot of people have been mad about what the Pacers

500
00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:12,680
were quote unquote doing.

501
00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: They don't have one of the best players in franchise history.

502
00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:20,599
Speaker 2: Quite frankly, he's out for the season, so they shouldn't

503
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,599
have any payoff for having to go like their fans too,

504
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,039
for going through this season. It's not like, by way,

505
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,480
it's not like Pascal Siakam has missed forty games this year,

506
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,799
And so I find misresponse to just be a little

507
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:38,759
bit overbearing. And there's also there's sometimes teams just get

508
00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:40,359
torn apart, fall apart.

509
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,559
Speaker 1: So if you make the conference finals.

510
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 2: Well, let's use the Wolves as an example and assume

511
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,359
they have their picks, but if they made three straight

512
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,240
conference finals, don't get past it and decide that it's

513
00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:54,640
time like we're rebuilding because you were good. It's also

514
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,480
why I don't necessarily support I don't even know if

515
00:25:56,519 --> 00:25:59,279
that's on this list of just doing the multi year

516
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,079
window for odds we're looking at. So it's, oh, a

517
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,359
team ages out organically, but they're being penalized because they

518
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,079
were good recently, Like that's a to me, that's a

519
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,960
superficial kind of parody. Then you're actively saying that you

520
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,240
don't want sustainability.

521
00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:19,039
Speaker 3: That also just like really specific and like all comes

522
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,240
up so infrequently as to like this is why is

523
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,200
this is a rule? Like what do we think?

524
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: It's hey, we're doing something, folks, you think one of them?

525
00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's just I don't know. You got no

526
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,319
bad ideas in a brainstorm. But just just like it,

527
00:26:31,319 --> 00:26:36,200
it doesn't again, it doesn't address the real problem because one,

528
00:26:36,279 --> 00:26:38,799
how often is this coming up? And two like, oh,

529
00:26:38,839 --> 00:26:43,000
what's what's the logic in in just saying you used

530
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:45,000
to be good so you can't get a high pick,

531
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,799
like I don't, I don't, I don't get it.

532
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,319
Speaker 2: And so you were adjusting the conference finals and got

533
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,000
there while still having your own draft pick for next

534
00:26:52,039 --> 00:26:55,000
year acause the Pacers reacquired there shout out New Orleans Pelicans.

535
00:26:55,079 --> 00:26:58,240
But so this is the next one. And by the

536
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,640
way you said this, there's no bad ideas in a brainstorm.

537
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: So I know people and.

538
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: They ship all over our idea that we posted on

539
00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:06,839
YouTube shorts. I know people like to get I don't.

540
00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:10,240
We're gonna find holes in our own proposals. In every proposal,

541
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:13,599
there is no perfect solve. Is a tough issue to

542
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,640
address unless you're going to shorten the season, which we

543
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,039
know they're never gonna do.

544
00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 3: Which wouldn't even address all of it. But but that's

545
00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:25,599
you know, I think if there were a perfect solution,

546
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,279
we would have had it a long time ago. This

547
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,119
is just like it is a hard thing to solve.

548
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,680
You're totally trying to realign incentives. Like that's difficult.

549
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: So the next one off is I did step on

550
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,200
the toes of it. Is lottery odds allocated based on

551
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,200
two year records?

552
00:27:39,799 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 3: I don't know.

553
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,839
Speaker 2: So just like the Pacers would be waited what they

554
00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:46,079
did last year versus this year, and it's do you

555
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,839
think that's is that is that fair? I mean you

556
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,519
could look at it as well. They were just and

557
00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:53,839
wean it's not like they've lost Tyre's Haliburton forever.

558
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: I still hate it. I'm just I'm trying to play

559
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:57,599
Devil's advocate.

560
00:27:57,759 --> 00:27:59,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it like I'm trying now. I'm yeah,

561
00:27:59,559 --> 00:28:01,559
I'm trying to advocate too. So like I guess what

562
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,720
it could accomplish is it just it could make it

563
00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:12,119
so that you're slightly less incentivized to totally like pack

564
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,559
it in in a a in a single year because

565
00:28:16,279 --> 00:28:19,240
it's it just helps you less if you're if that's

566
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,079
only half the sample that you're being judged on in

567
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,480
terms of lottery odds, I guess. But it's like, so

568
00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:27,839
does that just mean that teams will tank for longer

569
00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:31,039
because they need to build up multiple years of losses

570
00:28:31,079 --> 00:28:34,359
to maximize their Like, if the incentive is still losing

571
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,960
gets you a higher pick, then it's still losing gets

572
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,400
you a higher pick, So we really got to lose more.

573
00:28:41,839 --> 00:28:44,759
Like that doesn't seem great from a like process perspective.

574
00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: And then if you span the scope, there's also the

575
00:28:47,519 --> 00:28:51,559
chance that what if this team has two let's say

576
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,640
they did three year records, and this team was so

577
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,680
bad in just years one, Like they were just so

578
00:28:57,839 --> 00:28:59,960
bad they had the worst record league for two straight years.

579
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,359
Speaker 1: Then the third year, like they made the jump.

580
00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: They're this playoff team, but because their lottery odds, Like,

581
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,680
so your lottery odds are, would we be excluded from

582
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,240
that lottery? Then if you are in the playoff, Like,

583
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,359
how would that work? Like would you technically be considered

584
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,359
a lottery team if based on your three year record?

585
00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just made the playoffs, but we have.

586
00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:20,319
Speaker 2: Let's just say, like the tenth worst record over that

587
00:29:20,359 --> 00:29:20,920
three year spance.

588
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,119
Speaker 3: It's like the Pistons before they did this, they had

589
00:29:24,519 --> 00:29:26,079
just Yeah, the Pistons or even.

590
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,279
Speaker 1: The thunder number one pick this year, that'd be great.

591
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like if you I mean, that's another one that

592
00:29:31,119 --> 00:29:33,559
doesn't come up that often because usually the growth trajectory

593
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,640
is a little more gradual. But I don't know, I

594
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,400
don't think that's really that doesn't solve anything to me.

595
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: They have two more because this was less in the ESPN,

596
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,599
which seems like these are up for most consideration. Lottery

597
00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:52,920
is extended to include all playing team so that dissuades

598
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,799
teams from doing what the Mavericks did, or even maybe

599
00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:58,400
even the Sixers last year. But what the the Mavericks

600
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:04,000
specifically did was twenty one twenty where they got it

601
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:05,799
ended up with Derek Lively was the case of will

602
00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:07,599
that whole thing?

603
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 3: So I am more amenable to the general flattening of

604
00:30:13,519 --> 00:30:18,359
the odds just as a as an overall approach. I

605
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,599
do think the risk is that you have you moved

606
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,400
the line up to where it's like, now you need

607
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,440
to make a decision as a team, do we want

608
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,000
to be at the bottom of the playoff tier of

609
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,599
teams or have just as good a shot as literally

610
00:30:32,599 --> 00:30:36,319
anyone else at picking first in this draft. I assume,

611
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:40,039
because that actual chance is so small, since you're spreading

612
00:30:40,079 --> 00:30:43,759
it across whatever fourteen different teams, that you'd opt for

613
00:30:43,799 --> 00:30:46,960
the playoffs. But I don't know if what you really

614
00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:50,039
want is to avoid the teams that could otherwise be

615
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,920
competitive purposely losing. That feels like the temptation would be there,

616
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:56,920
right am I? Is that how you view it too?

617
00:30:57,039 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: Yeah?

618
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: I still like it a little better than the other solutions,

619
00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:05,480
though that that to me makes losing less of an incentive.

620
00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:10,160
Then then like the more we lose, the better our

621
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,039
chances get. It's just you can make the playoffs or not.

622
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,240
And you're in one of two buckets that.

623
00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:20,359
Speaker 2: I would like to see how the lottery odds get redistributed,

624
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,839
though if you're now having so what would that be?

625
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,759
And like, can you make the playoffs and still be

626
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,680
considered because you're still a playing team the seven eight?

627
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:31,279
Speaker 1: Is that?

628
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: No, I'd say, I'd say make it so that if

629
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:37,039
you the sixteen playoff teams the play in whatever, if

630
00:31:37,079 --> 00:31:40,039
you are not one of the sixteen teams that goes

631
00:31:40,039 --> 00:31:44,200
to the playoffs. You're so, that's fourteen that are equally

632
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,000
have equal lottery, equal shots at the number one pick. No.

633
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,079
Speaker 1: No, So I guess to get.

634
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: What this proposal says. This proposal is just no. That

635
00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:56,920
proposal says like extending the lottery to include all playing teams.

636
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,319
I don't assume that means they're flattening the odds for

637
00:31:59,359 --> 00:32:00,440
all the teams that involved.

638
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: It's just a more teams into the ice.

639
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:08,279
Speaker 3: So if you are the Atlanta Hawks and you're a

640
00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:10,920
playing team and as long as you don't make it

641
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,559
to the eighth seed through the play in tournament.

642
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:15,279
Speaker 1: But then isn't that the same?

643
00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:17,519
Speaker 2: I'm assuming they meant the teams that make it it

644
00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:20,039
as the seven eight to the playoffs, because otherwise, how

645
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:20,480
what is it?

646
00:32:20,519 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: What are you extending?

647
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,519
Speaker 3: Well I kind of like that one too, because that

648
00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:31,599
disincentivizes I still like my flattening the odds a little better.

649
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: Well that so that is the next one is you

650
00:32:33,319 --> 00:32:38,480
flatten the entire lottery, And that just feels so like,

651
00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:43,519
in what world should the fucking like Blazers have the

652
00:32:43,559 --> 00:32:46,039
same lottery odds as I.

653
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,599
Speaker 3: Don't know as the Kings this year?

654
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: That's the Kings.

655
00:32:48,279 --> 00:32:51,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, who tried to be good? Here's the thing,

656
00:32:52,119 --> 00:32:53,920
what about the Oh wait, sorry for you?

657
00:32:55,079 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 3: So that's a So what you're saying is is it's

658
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,519
a it's not a good result. If the Blazers, that's

659
00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:03,920
probably the best example. I just yeah, they'll stick with

660
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,640
the Blazers. If the Blazers get the number one. If

661
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,720
the war it's a great result. If the Warriors get

662
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:10,440
the number one.

663
00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: Pick, that's the only acceptable results.

664
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 3: I think it's a. I think that if that's a

665
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:26,039
I'm more willing to live with an outcome where not

666
00:33:26,519 --> 00:33:29,640
the worst team gets the number one pick than I

667
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:36,480
am to continue having the incentive for bad teams to

668
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,279
to not to be bad. I don't know, Like, so,

669
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,279
what's the there's an up or if who's the uproar

670
00:33:43,319 --> 00:33:45,920
coming from? It's coming from the Kings, the Wizards, the Nets,

671
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,880
the Pacers, whatever, right.

672
00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: But I honestly think that it's coming from so if

673
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,640
we if we kind of step back, it's gonna come

674
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,279
from teams. And Tony Jones had this report for The

675
00:33:55,319 --> 00:33:58,880
Athletic that the Jazz had a win now trade line

676
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,240
up for a big name player who didn't want to

677
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,359
go to Utah, and so the trade wasn't made. Now

678
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,720
you can argue that is there's some spin there. Who

679
00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:09,679
was the player? Sure, but that's a lot of these

680
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,239
teams cannot hope to win big in free agency or

681
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,679
even trades. You can throw caution to the win and

682
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:19,440
trade for players anyway, but that becomes a huge risk.

683
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: Rebuilding through the draft.

684
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: To me, it's still most important to get the teams

685
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,400
that are in the worst shape the most infusion of talent. Now,

686
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,679
how do they get to be Now the Jazz if

687
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,000
they were in the worst shape this year, which they're not,

688
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,280
by the way, it would be disingenuous. But the Kings

689
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,079
are in bad shape. It's through their own incompetence. But

690
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:42,800
they're in bad shape. I think you could even again,

691
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,159
before making the trades for Trey Young and Anthony Davis,

692
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,639
what did the Wizards do that was inauthentic aside from

693
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,599
they didn't make a trade like for Trey Young or

694
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:55,840
Anthony Davis. And now the problem is they made that trade,

695
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,840
but they're not playing those guys. That team still needs

696
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,960
a best player or something close to it, and maybe

697
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,679
it still could be Alex r. But you could sort

698
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:05,880
of catch like the Nets, but you could say they

699
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,480
structure their team through the tank, and the Nets might

700
00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:10,800
be a team that are more likely to make a

701
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,239
bigger trade, or could they envision a free agency becomes

702
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,400
cool again, But let zoom zoom right past the Giannis

703
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,159
attenthakoupo era in Milwaukee when they eventually have their own.

704
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 1: Picks back you.

705
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I know Giannis wasn't drafted in the lottery, but

706
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,519
your best chance of finding your next franchise cornerstone is

707
00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:28,079
with a high draft pick. And so yeah, well, flattening

708
00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:30,920
the lottery odds probably increases the importance of scouting departments

709
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,360
and it definitely removes the incentive to tank. I just

710
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,920
I feel like he creates this in balance for where

711
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,159
better teams are going to get the number one there's

712
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,159
they're more likely to get the number one pick or

713
00:35:44,199 --> 00:35:46,400
these high draft picks, which in a vacuum is fine

714
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,519
if everything else about the NBA existed on this even plane,

715
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,119
and it just doesn't because of all the other competitive advantages.

716
00:35:55,159 --> 00:35:59,440
Again that certain teams just they can't overcome their location.

717
00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:02,039
We can make of teams for not spending, and you should,

718
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:03,960
but if you're willing to spend, if you're willing to

719
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,480
make big swings on the trade market, but you're never

720
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:10,719
going to be a player destination. That's something that needs

721
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,280
to like. Your best chance of getting these transcendent talents

722
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,239
are through the draft, and you're most likely to get

723
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,599
those transcendent talents the higher you draft.

724
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,559
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, what you're doing is advocating on

725
00:36:22,679 --> 00:36:28,440
behalf of the smaller markets than the guy that have

726
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:33,760
competitive disadvantages in roster building. I think I think that's fair.

727
00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:38,320
I think I'm more on I don't know. Part of

728
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,199
me is just like I don't know. Run your operation

729
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,039
well and you'll be fine. But that is like here,

730
00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:46,159
that's a dismissive of the fact that like, players don't

731
00:36:46,199 --> 00:36:48,559
want to. Players would rather all things be equal. They'd

732
00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:51,360
rather go to New York, Miami, La, Houston, or whatever.

733
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:54,639
Speaker 1: Strip away the idea of no draft picks.

734
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: Take away the draft picks from the Lakers, and take

735
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,079
away the draft picks from.

736
00:36:58,079 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: Let's pick another team we haven't talked about yet.

737
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,639
Speaker 2: Uh, take away all the draft picks from New Orleans,

738
00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:03,599
even though they might just give them.

739
00:37:03,559 --> 00:37:04,079
Speaker 1: Away at this point.

740
00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:04,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, they don't.

741
00:37:04,559 --> 00:37:06,599
Speaker 2: They don't have Any of these teams have no draft picks,

742
00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:08,480
which team is going to be better?

743
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,559
Speaker 3: Right first? Right, And that's that's undeniable. It's the big

744
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,960
it's the Lakers. The Lakers are I mean, they're they

745
00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:16,159
might just they're they're their own thing. But but like,

746
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,800
I think that is a real concern, although again part

747
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,920
of me just I don't know, it seems like it's

748
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,719
less it should be less of a concern than it

749
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,039
used to be. But maybe I'm just being dismissive because

750
00:37:28,039 --> 00:37:31,039
like I otherwise like this solution, and that I'm dismissing

751
00:37:31,079 --> 00:37:34,880
the like pretty obvious problem with it. That's different to

752
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,519
me than because because a close cousin of what you're

753
00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:43,000
talking about is, well, if you do this, then the

754
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,840
whole point of the draft is so a bad team

755
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,960
can get good and and you're making it harder for

756
00:37:48,039 --> 00:37:50,800
the bad teams to like totally turn themselves around with

757
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,679
a number one draft pick, right, which is.

758
00:37:52,679 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: They could just be in the lottery for longer than yeah,

759
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,360
and in turns of bad for longer, right, which is,

760
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,280
by the way, the chaos energy of it all as

761
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,800
a from an entertainment perspective, absolutely insane.

762
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I would enjoy that, isn't there something appealing though,

763
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,199
about forcing a team to try to improve itself through

764
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,440
like other means versus we just need this windfall that

765
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,960
we can only get by losing, you know, Like it

766
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,639
doesn't it maybe force you to invest more in player

767
00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:28,679
development and and like stick with a coach for a

768
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,920
long time who's got a system, or like there's I

769
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,039
think there are upsides to making it so that the

770
00:38:35,079 --> 00:38:37,199
only way we can turn ourselves around is with a

771
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,039
high lottery pick. The problem with making that argument is, like,

772
00:38:40,119 --> 00:38:43,039
it's demonstrably true that the best way to fix your

773
00:38:43,039 --> 00:38:47,039
franchise is to get Victor wimban Yama or whatever. And

774
00:38:47,079 --> 00:38:50,320
the market the market sized thing, and the inequity of

775
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,280
just how teams are viewed by players, that's kind of undeniable.

776
00:38:55,559 --> 00:38:58,400
I think, I think that's fair. I still like this

777
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,199
idea a little better than a lot of the other ones, though.

778
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 2: So here's my idea that it was a hybrid of

779
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,199
a couple ideas that we had gone through and I'd

780
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:09,400
added a layer to it.

781
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: People did not like it. I still really like it.

782
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 2: It's losses count towards your lottery odds before the trade deadline,

783
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,920
after the trade deadline, wins count towards the lottery odds.

784
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,840
I'm adding a caveat to this though, that while losses

785
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,079
count to your lottery odds, if you're losing streak lasts

786
00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:31,920
longer than two games or three games, even even you

787
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,800
can push it to three. Oh, those losses do not

788
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,039
count towards your lottery odds. There is no limit to

789
00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:40,679
how your wins would count on the back on the

790
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,639
back end of that, so pass the trade deadline. So

791
00:39:42,679 --> 00:39:46,800
it's losses before the trade deadline. But anytime you lose

792
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,559
more than two maybe I don't. We'd have to look

793
00:39:48,599 --> 00:39:50,880
and see, should have whatever three games. But if you're

794
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,639
losing streaks or passes two or three games, none of

795
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:56,159
the losses that followed during that street like that, we

796
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:57,280
doubt it's a problem.

797
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 1: Then if the Kings have a winless month, is my point?

798
00:40:01,679 --> 00:40:05,639
Speaker 3: Well, I mean because the Kings don't get any benefit.

799
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: Right because the argument because my proposal or that hybrid,

800
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,880
you still would have teams like let's let's use the

801
00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:17,079
Wizards as an example. They could tank their hearts out

802
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,239
through the trade deadline, then make those trades for a

803
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,000
healthy trade, y'kin, Anthony Davis, and try and rack up

804
00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:26,039
wins after this at least alleviates the front loaded part

805
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,159
of that to where teams, yeah, they can benefit from

806
00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:31,840
their losses before the trade deadline, but you're capped because

807
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,679
you can't just lose four or five six games in

808
00:40:34,679 --> 00:40:37,239
a row and have those all count towards the lottery odds.

809
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 3: So theoretically that does it diminishes the value the incentive

810
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,480
to lose as much as possible. It's because you get

811
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:48,960
a little cap and then if you get a win,

812
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,480
then you can lose. You can lose four out of

813
00:40:50,519 --> 00:40:53,719
five and then what six out of six out of

814
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,280
eight or whatever. But if you lose eight in a

815
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:01,719
row counts the same. You're only getting those So I

816
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,480
like that better than just the hard cutoff where wins

817
00:41:04,519 --> 00:41:06,679
count for something and the losses or losses count for

818
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,840
points and wins count for points. But like, do you

819
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,400
then get these weird games where it's like they're guaranteed

820
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,280
to try to lose this one where they're you know, like.

821
00:41:17,199 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 1: How's that different from what we have? It's not that

822
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:20,440
with every game.

823
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 3: It's a more complicated version of the problem that kind

824
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,599
of exists. Yeah, that's interesting, that's interesting.

825
00:41:27,639 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: Just play cating me you could say it's no, that's well,

826
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,679
because that's just better than the losses are good, and

827
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,880
then wins are good after a certain date cutoff because you.

828
00:41:38,199 --> 00:41:43,639
Speaker 3: You're you are you're cutting down by I guess in

829
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,599
theory like a third the value of or or more

830
00:41:48,039 --> 00:41:50,800
value of a loss, so you're less incentivized to lose.

831
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,079
Speaker 2: My FOB question to all of this is how important

832
00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:57,639
because we've seen other models out there which are like

833
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,360
moderately or not really complicated where it's we had some

834
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,639
of our discord repose a double weighted lottery, which was

835
00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:06,119
super interesting going through that. There's been entire just long

836
00:42:06,159 --> 00:42:10,159
form pieces written on these super complicated mechanisms. How important

837
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,960
is it for fans to be able to follow your

838
00:42:14,039 --> 00:42:17,559
lottery system beyond just if there's a website that automatically

839
00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:20,400
does what the order would be for you right now,

840
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,199
because you might not understand the stakes on a game

841
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,159
to game basis for your team. And I've wondered that

842
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,800
because you could say not at all. The priority should

843
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,239
just be putting the best product possible on the floor.

844
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,480
If this fix is tanking, who cares how complicated it is.

845
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,119
If it works, but it isn't This is still an

846
00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:39,440
entertainment product, and you want fans to be able to

847
00:42:39,519 --> 00:42:42,480
kind of understand the lay of the land.

848
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,159
Speaker 1: And I think some of these get into.

849
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 2: I don't think anything we mentioned, but mine would be

850
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,840
a good example if we added another step to it

851
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:51,960
that you could even argue as fans.

852
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,599
Speaker 1: Might get confused, yeah, of having to track that.

853
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 3: I mean, do you think most fans could explain to

854
00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:02,719
you the second like cogently and like all like Eric,

855
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,519
do you think most could explain.

856
00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:05,559
Speaker 1: Anone who listen to this podcast.

857
00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:07,679
Speaker 3: Well, that's the thing is we're not exactly like we're

858
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,800
a little niche in that regard it just like the

859
00:43:10,519 --> 00:43:13,639
the the nuts and bolts and the nitty gritty details

860
00:43:13,639 --> 00:43:16,800
of stuff. I do think what you're talking about made

861
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,320
me it seemed it's complicated. It's there's another layer of

862
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,519
complication to it. And maybe that does, Like because right now,

863
00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:27,239
unless you maybe as as a fan, you know your

864
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,159
team owes its pick and doesn't owe its pick, and

865
00:43:30,199 --> 00:43:31,840
you know where they are in the standings, and that

866
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,519
gives you all the information you need based like about

867
00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:38,599
your your draft shot. Adding the other stuff makes it

868
00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:42,199
a little trickier, honestly, Adding the like well, wins losses

869
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,039
are good until winds are good might be like kind

870
00:43:44,039 --> 00:43:48,480
of complicated for you know, the casual fan too. Can

871
00:43:48,519 --> 00:43:51,199
I I kind of feel like I know where we're

872
00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:53,880
both gonna land on it as as impractical, But can

873
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,480
I give you do you have anything else? Or can

874
00:43:55,519 --> 00:43:57,760
I give you the the idea that I read recently

875
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:58,559
that I thought.

876
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,039
Speaker 1: Was, oh, yeah, for sure, I'm just gonna shoot it

877
00:44:01,079 --> 00:44:01,800
down because.

878
00:44:01,599 --> 00:44:05,039
Speaker 3: I mean I will too. There's an obvious reason that

879
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,400
this shouldn't happen, but what if? So the problem? The

880
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:13,519
problem is your odds of getting Victor wimbin Yama are

881
00:44:13,519 --> 00:44:15,559
better if you lose a lot of games, and so

882
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,280
you're always going to be incentivized to lose games. And

883
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,400
that's bad because we want teams to try to win

884
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,639
every night, however many games the season is you wanted

885
00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:27,400
to try to win, it seems to me that and

886
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,159
I'm so I'm sorry. I should have looked this up

887
00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:32,000
before we started recording. I think it was Tom Ziller.

888
00:44:32,119 --> 00:44:34,880
It might have been him reporting on somebody else's idea

889
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,480
from almost ten years ago. The gist of it is,

890
00:44:37,519 --> 00:44:40,880
though there is no draft anymore, to me, that's like

891
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,760
if you're really going to solve tanking getting rid of

892
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,360
the draft, like does it? And so what you do

893
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,079
instead is have what amounts to like a roster exception,

894
00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:53,559
like everybody has. You know. The idea of like a

895
00:44:53,599 --> 00:44:56,400
mid level exception is just just so to keep that

896
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,599
idea in people's heads. There's a rookie exception, and it

897
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,400
set it at whatever you want. It's fifteen million dollars,

898
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,840
and you can spend that on one rookie or five

899
00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:09,679
or whatever. And then there are ways for you to

900
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,960
trade to acquire other team's rookie exceptions, Like maybe some

901
00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:16,960
team is capped out and doesn't want to spend this

902
00:45:17,159 --> 00:45:20,000
exception on somebody, and so they'll trade it to you

903
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:22,480
for whatever. I don't know. Just there's this idea of

904
00:45:22,559 --> 00:45:24,840
roster exception. So it's possible for a team to have

905
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,719
like fifty million dollars in a given draft class and

906
00:45:29,199 --> 00:45:32,400
there's no draft to spend on a rookie. And maybe

907
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,000
that team is Utah and maybe the Lakers have twenty

908
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:37,519
million dollars, and maybe that player chooses the Jazz because

909
00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:40,440
they've got the biggest exception that they can spend on

910
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,960
that player. This has no impact on winning or losing.

911
00:45:44,039 --> 00:45:47,280
If anything, I think it makes it so all things

912
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,960
being equal, a player might want to go to a

913
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,079
winning team as long as there wasn't like a clear,

914
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,159
oh this guy's playing ahead of me type of thing.

915
00:45:53,199 --> 00:45:55,880
It makes it almost like a scholarship offer, like in

916
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,480
the college setting. So what that does is it gives

917
00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:05,000
the small market teams the ability to have like superior

918
00:46:05,039 --> 00:46:07,559
spending power if they play their cards right, to have

919
00:46:07,599 --> 00:46:09,880
a better shot at the transformative player that they need

920
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,039
because they can't trade for them and they can't sign them.

921
00:46:12,519 --> 00:46:16,440
And it also makes it so losing does not give

922
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,599
you more money to spend. It doesn't affect it, so.

923
00:46:20,679 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: Like everything the same.

924
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'd have to treat it like, okay, so every team,

925
00:46:26,599 --> 00:46:28,840
if we wipe away all the trades and everything, every

926
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,960
team has one first round pick and one second round

927
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,679
pick this year, right, so you'd have I don't know

928
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:35,960
what you do with all the obligations that are outstanding

929
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,599
with respected draft picks. This is reason one of fifteen

930
00:46:38,599 --> 00:46:42,679
why this is unrealistic. But you just say every team

931
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,960
has a ten million dollar or what it just say

932
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,440
ten to have an easy number ten million dollar rookie

933
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,840
roster exception. Okay, here comes the twenty twenty six draft class.

934
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:57,039
Where's where's a boozer? Where's he gonna Where's he gonna sign?

935
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,239
If it's all equally, he's probably going to Lakers or whatever. Right,

936
00:47:00,519 --> 00:47:02,920
But over time, I do think these things get traded

937
00:47:03,199 --> 00:47:05,880
and somebody has the most money, somebody has the least.

938
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,199
It's it's The key thing that appeals to me is

939
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,480
that it makes it so losing doesn't help you. The

940
00:47:12,559 --> 00:47:15,280
problem is the draft is like one of the most

941
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,639
interest drawing things in the league, and if you get

942
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,760
rid of the draft with this, then it just becomes

943
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,840
like another free agency, which also is as I'm saying that,

944
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,960
like people like that check your mic.

945
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 2: The other thing, too, is so you can acquire these

946
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,280
exceptions from other teams.

947
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,760
Speaker 1: But even if you don't, this might.

948
00:47:37,599 --> 00:47:42,119
Speaker 2: Open the door for more of Kawhi aspiration level stuff

949
00:47:42,519 --> 00:47:44,360
where if you are going to go to a bigger market,

950
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,639
they're gonna find ways to offset I mean, hurting potential

951
00:47:47,639 --> 00:47:49,239
that you could have gotten and you.

952
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 3: Get nuked with penalties if you do that.

953
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: Let's just say the Clippers would would would like to

954
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,719
disagree as of right now on that.

955
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: Do you so that that that leads like.

956
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,599
Speaker 3: That idea like tickled my brain a little bit because

957
00:48:03,679 --> 00:48:07,079
because everything else you talk about that still involves a draft,

958
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:13,480
doesn't address the misalignment of incentives, like the the loss

959
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,760
equals good of it all like that solves that it

960
00:48:18,039 --> 00:48:20,719
raises a host of new problems and so it'll never happen.

961
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,159
But I'm sorry, what else, Let's shoot it down a

962
00:48:24,199 --> 00:48:25,800
little bit more? What else you got?

963
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,199
Speaker 2: I honestly think that it would really screw over just

964
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,440
the non glamour markets, because it's if you're now I

965
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,760
think you you're saying they could be traded and such.

966
00:48:36,159 --> 00:48:39,440
But if I am the Lakers, I'm never gonna trade

967
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,159
these things because my fifteen million dollars is always going

968
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,800
to go further every single year than everyone I'd rather.

969
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 1: What I would rather do.

970
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 2: Is I signed the player and I can trade the

971
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,760
actual player like in the middle of like another package arises.

972
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 1: I don't it's interesting.

973
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,159
Speaker 2: It's better than just abolishing the draft all together and

974
00:48:56,199 --> 00:48:57,800
having it be a free agency process.

975
00:48:58,119 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 3: You gotta have some kind kind of let's level the

976
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,719
playing field insofar as that's possible mechanism in place, and

977
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,239
the idea of a roster exception makes sense to me.

978
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,880
The other thing, the thought provoking thing about it, is like,

979
00:49:10,599 --> 00:49:13,159
so I think you're right, it would just if you're

980
00:49:13,199 --> 00:49:15,280
a small market team or a team that players don't

981
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,559
historically want to go to, Like this is a disadvantage

982
00:49:17,559 --> 00:49:20,559
for you. It's a big advance, it's an even it's

983
00:49:20,559 --> 00:49:24,239
a bigger advantage for the teams that already like have advantages.

984
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,519
And then it's like, is that bad? Is it bad

985
00:49:27,639 --> 00:49:30,679
if we have like six or eight superpowers that are

986
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,920
meeting in the playoffs every year, like for the net

987
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,719
popularity of the NBA, it's it almost goes back to

988
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,039
like our dynasties good for the NBA. Our super team's good.

989
00:49:40,559 --> 00:49:42,679
I feel like the jury's still out on that. But like,

990
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,159
what if there were all of the big market teams

991
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,920
just kept like butting heads every year in the playoffs?

992
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 1: I think people like that.

993
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 3: And then it's like if you get the odd Memphis

994
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,000
Grizzlies run, You're like, holy shit, we are all on board.

995
00:49:55,039 --> 00:49:57,559
This is awesome. This is like a David Goliath thing.

996
00:49:58,079 --> 00:49:59,719
I don't know, It's just I don't know what I

997
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,480
think about it, But there's debate to me on whether

998
00:50:02,519 --> 00:50:06,639
it's good to have a handful of superpowers most of

999
00:50:06,679 --> 00:50:08,320
the time, it's possible that it is.

1000
00:50:08,519 --> 00:50:16,159
Speaker 2: So, so after the NBA exhaustively, exhaustively championing the importance

1001
00:50:16,159 --> 00:50:19,079
of parody, they're just gonna shift.

1002
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: The completely because that's what that does.

1003
00:50:21,159 --> 00:50:25,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, prove like maybe this give me the economic

1004
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:28,920
study over years of data that proves that's bad. Like

1005
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,039
maybe it is. I'm not sure. I don't know. It's

1006
00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:33,079
possible that never.

1007
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,039
Speaker 2: But then don't you kind of put a cap on

1008
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:39,280
I mean for the way that the NBA markets itself. Now, yeah, sure,

1009
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,360
having the same six to eight glamour markets maybe involved

1010
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,719
in everything routinely would be good.

1011
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: But that's then what's the point of it?

1012
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: Like, are are we gonna see franchise valuations which have

1013
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:50,719
been currently skyrocketing?

1014
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: Are they gonna plummet?

1015
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:56,039
Speaker 3: Because it's I mean, how's how's Premier League soccer doing?

1016
00:50:56,519 --> 00:50:59,960
Like how's how's most international soccer doing? Like popularity wise,

1017
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,039
because they essentially operate similarly to this, where it's like

1018
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,320
there's a handful of extremely wealthy teams that can just

1019
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,559
spend you know, most of the league under the table,

1020
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,400
and they tend to be the most competitive teams, and

1021
00:51:16,519 --> 00:51:20,039
like there's there's like smaller, smaller market teams that are

1022
00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:22,480
in the same league that are just like spending a

1023
00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:25,360
tenth of what the teams at the top are. And like,

1024
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,679
I don't know, it seems like soccer is doing pretty

1025
00:51:27,679 --> 00:51:28,559
well popular.

1026
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:33,159
Speaker 2: The Premier League has what twenty teams versus that, yeah,

1027
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,079
versus soon to be thirty two.

1028
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 3: But there's all these second division teams that are still

1029
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,360
wildly popular. I don't know, Like I'm again, I'm just

1030
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,400
I'm spitballing, I'm playing Devil's advocate, I'm just asking questions,

1031
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:45,519
I'm doing all the things.

1032
00:51:45,639 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 1: It's one of the.

1033
00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 2: More creative abolished the draft once I've heard for sure,

1034
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,840
like someone clearly put a ton of thought into that one.

1035
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:52,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I just can'tnot idea.

1036
00:51:52,679 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 2: I just I aggregators Grant Hughes watch abolish the NBA

1037
00:51:58,079 --> 00:52:03,079
drafts and the Knicks to be competing in with the

1038
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:05,480
occasional run from the Celtics and maybe the Warriors.

1039
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 1: Yep, that's all he wants. The part that I think it's.

1040
00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 2: Im important to note is that it's impossible to fully

1041
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,440
solve tanking so long as you're going to have the

1042
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,639
goal of the teams that need the talent the most

1043
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,159
need to have the best shot at it. I think

1044
00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:25,239
there are things that can be done to curtail it.

1045
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,559
I don't think some of the proposals we went through.

1046
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,840
I think there would either be unintended consequences or a

1047
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:33,800
lot of them just don't have a ton of teeth.

1048
00:52:34,039 --> 00:52:36,880
The more I thought about the pick protections thing, sure,

1049
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,599
if you want to simplify the transactional process and for

1050
00:52:40,639 --> 00:52:42,480
got people like you and me who are covering the

1051
00:52:42,519 --> 00:52:44,559
sport don't want to keep track of all these pick protects,

1052
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,039
abolish I will say one thing will be boshed. No

1053
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:50,119
second round pick protections, no more, no second round pick

1054
00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:53,000
protections or swaps. You just trade the second round pick

1055
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,719
and that's it. But that the actual pick protections thing,

1056
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,440
I don't think it has a ton of teeth, to

1057
00:52:58,519 --> 00:53:01,559
be honest. Some of the other stuff I just wonder

1058
00:53:01,599 --> 00:53:06,159
about the unintended consequences of You're not necessarily disincentivizing tanking

1059
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:07,559
so much as relocating it.

1060
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, as the part of the schedule, but this stuff

1061
00:53:09,639 --> 00:53:10,320
is hard.

1062
00:53:10,079 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 2: And I'm I'm sympathetic to the NBA wanting to try

1063
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,599
things and I hope that they do meaningfully try things.

1064
00:53:17,119 --> 00:53:22,920
I just if you're gonna enforce these integrity rules that

1065
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,519
you have in place, that needs to be done, like

1066
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:31,239
this is easier to in theory police than foul calls

1067
00:53:31,519 --> 00:53:34,679
because those are so in the moment, happening in real time,

1068
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,360
and they're more open for interpretation. Then if we're talking

1069
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,239
about if you have doctors, like it, shouldn't this be

1070
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,440
more cut and dry or it should be easier to

1071
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,320
have those discussions. I'm just not a fan of it.

1072
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,559
I'm not even saying it's easy. I'm not a fan

1073
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:51,079
of what feels like selective enforcement of the tanking stuff.

1074
00:53:51,079 --> 00:53:52,119
Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of tanking.

1075
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,599
Speaker 2: But I also if I'm a team trying to build

1076
00:53:54,599 --> 00:53:57,760
a winner and I'm rebuilding, like, yeah, I'm tanking, that's

1077
00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:58,960
that's the thing I'm gonna do.

1078
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:03,559
Speaker 3: I also think that ultimately the fines and the punishments,

1079
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:10,159
whether they're selectively implemented or not, are useless because it

1080
00:54:10,199 --> 00:54:13,000
doesn't change the incentive structure, and all it will do

1081
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:15,719
is make it like, Okay, the league's going to spend

1082
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:19,079
a ton of money and hire a team of physicians

1083
00:54:19,079 --> 00:54:22,079
that are impartial, that will investigate every single player that

1084
00:54:22,079 --> 00:54:25,559
shows up on every team's injury report. Okay, teams will

1085
00:54:25,559 --> 00:54:27,840
just find a different way to lose. There's lots of

1086
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,280
ways to lose on purpose, like you can like there's

1087
00:54:30,599 --> 00:54:32,639
we can't even imagine because they haven't had to try

1088
00:54:32,639 --> 00:54:35,880
to get this creative. But like, until you make it so,

1089
00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:39,920
losing is bad full stop, teams will do this. So

1090
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,400
no matter what solutions are implemented this offseason, there will

1091
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,719
still be tanking because it's still good in a meaningful

1092
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:52,400
sense to lose games, and teams will always follow the

1093
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,239
incentives like that's just never gonna change until you until

1094
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:01,840
that fundamental aspect of the of the league is different. Right.

1095
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 2: Like, By the way, the variable here that probably doesn't

1096
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,239
get talked about enough is of all the team sports,

1097
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:13,360
the NBA is the one where a singular player makes

1098
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,280
the most difference. And that even if the incentive isn't

1099
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,559
fully there, if there's just a slight advantage, teams are

1100
00:55:21,639 --> 00:55:23,679
going to try and exploit it. You might even are

1101
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,119
let's say you flatten the lottery odds. There might just

1102
00:55:26,199 --> 00:55:29,119
be teams that are consigned to being bad until that,

1103
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,079
let's for five or six years and just hoping one

1104
00:55:32,119 --> 00:55:33,239
of these lottery years we're.

1105
00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 1: Gonna have to get lucky.

1106
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, we only have a whatever it would amount to

1107
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,880
across the fourteen teams x percent chance is gonna be

1108
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:40,880
in the single digits of getting the number one pick

1109
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,840
or whatever it is at getting a top four pick.

1110
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,880
But that's the risk we'll want to take because one

1111
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,719
player makes all the difference in the world in this sport,

1112
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:50,360
and it's not gonna be the same. Where in football,

1113
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,119
you're not playing both sides of the field, and just

1114
00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:56,360
baseball and hockey, there's so many changes. In hockey, there's

1115
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,360
so many frequent line changes, and that's not it's not

1116
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,119
a defensive tanking. I just I don't think you're ever

1117
00:56:03,159 --> 00:56:05,639
going to fully solve it because of the nature of

1118
00:56:05,679 --> 00:56:08,280
the sport. I think some of them I think the

1119
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,760
most effective way to address it would be too short

1120
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:13,639
in the season. It's just something they're never going to do.

1121
00:56:13,679 --> 00:56:14,199
Speaker 3: And I don't know.

1122
00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 1: I try to balance.

1123
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:17,639
Speaker 2: I think it needs to be mentioned, but I just

1124
00:56:17,679 --> 00:56:19,840
don't how much is it worth discussing when you know

1125
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,400
that neither the league, the owners, nor the players union

1126
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:24,920
is ever going to go for it.

1127
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 3: Last thing I'll say because we've gone long on this.

1128
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,840
I Shortening the season is like, yes, obviously start there.

1129
00:56:32,199 --> 00:56:36,079
Speaker 2: To me, seventeen games, single round elimination in the plants

1130
00:56:36,119 --> 00:56:37,360
a week every Sunday.

1131
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:43,119
Speaker 3: What could go wrong? I think flattening the odds totally

1132
00:56:43,159 --> 00:56:48,360
evenly among non playoff teams is my favorite idea because

1133
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:53,039
it is the most effective way to disincentivize losing. But

1134
00:56:53,159 --> 00:56:56,599
also in conjunction with all these second apron rules that

1135
00:56:56,639 --> 00:56:59,519
make it really really hard to stay good for a

1136
00:56:59,559 --> 00:57:02,559
long time because you can't afford it, I think that

1137
00:57:02,639 --> 00:57:06,920
makes it less likely that, oh my god, the Lakers

1138
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,480
won the championship and and then just barely missed the

1139
00:57:10,519 --> 00:57:13,440
playoffs and then got the number one pick. They're still

1140
00:57:13,519 --> 00:57:16,519
up against all of it. For all of their advantages,

1141
00:57:16,559 --> 00:57:18,920
they're still up against the same like spending caps and

1142
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,559
rules and penalties as everybody else. So like, if parody

1143
00:57:22,679 --> 00:57:25,559
like parody is the is a concern, right, So that's

1144
00:57:25,599 --> 00:57:27,559
why it's bad to flatten the odds, because the worst

1145
00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:30,280
teams don't necessarily get the best chance at the top picks.

1146
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,679
But because there's all these new CBA things of the

1147
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:37,639
last few years that make parody like just parodies like

1148
00:57:37,679 --> 00:57:41,480
built in now it through a different mechanism. I think

1149
00:57:41,559 --> 00:57:46,320
I'm much more open to the flatten odds because it's

1150
00:57:46,559 --> 00:57:49,800
just like, regardless of market size, it's really fucking hard

1151
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,480
to stay at the top of the league for a

1152
00:57:51,519 --> 00:57:54,079
long time, right, Does that make sense? So that that's

1153
00:57:54,119 --> 00:57:56,039
why the flat and odds are more appealing to me

1154
00:57:56,079 --> 00:57:57,400
than the other solutions.

1155
00:57:57,679 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: Would you didn't get instances of where team are going

1156
00:58:00,519 --> 00:58:02,960
to actively pivot out of the play in because they

1157
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:04,880
know they're going to have an even show. Let's use

1158
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:06,599
the Hornets as an example, an up and coming team

1159
00:58:06,599 --> 00:58:08,440
that's playing really well right now and they're just gonna

1160
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:09,880
steer themselves out of the play in.

1161
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 3: Because I think you might get a couple of those,

1162
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,880
because again, losing still an incentive. But I don't think

1163
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,320
you're gonna have whatever we got this year, like ten

1164
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,800
teams maybe at this point at this point that are

1165
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,079
trying to lose or not trying to win. I don't think.

1166
00:58:24,119 --> 00:58:25,360
I think you don't get that.

1167
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 2: I think we should just have a tournament. That's the

1168
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:33,079
new NBA solution. Here's here's the solution. They should hold

1169
00:58:33,079 --> 00:58:35,800
a tournament and the winner of the tournament gets to

1170
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,960
pick the following season's lottery structure and its every single year.

1171
00:58:40,239 --> 00:58:42,199
Speaker 1: Yep, you choose the rules.

1172
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,559
Speaker 3: Whatever you want. That's the that'd be a big tournament.

1173
00:58:44,599 --> 00:58:45,119
I like it.

1174
00:58:45,599 --> 00:58:46,719
Speaker 1: Do you have anything else?

1175
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,639
Speaker 2: I I I think this conversation will make people mad,

1176
00:58:50,679 --> 00:58:51,639
because it always does.

1177
00:58:51,679 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: But it's it's.

1178
00:58:52,639 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 2: One that I'm kind of tired of having. But it's

1179
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,960
also I find it just fascinating. Yeah, and it's also

1180
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,079
it is a problem. Even as I said at the top, well,

1181
00:59:00,119 --> 00:59:02,199
I don't appreciate this selective enforcement. It feels like of

1182
00:59:02,239 --> 00:59:05,599
these quote unquote rules, it is certainly a problem. And

1183
00:59:06,239 --> 00:59:08,559
I don't know what they're gonna I if they're gonna

1184
00:59:08,559 --> 00:59:11,559
do the stuff that we went through that's being proposed,

1185
00:59:11,599 --> 00:59:13,639
I don't actually know how much of them. Some of

1186
00:59:13,679 --> 00:59:15,679
it might have a material impact. I just don't know

1187
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:17,880
how good it's going to be. So I'm very curious

1188
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:19,519
to see where they end up with it.

1189
00:59:19,599 --> 00:59:23,119
Speaker 3: All same, thanks everybody for listening, for watching Murmder to rate,

1190
00:59:23,159 --> 00:59:25,480
review and subscribe, let us know what you think.

1191
00:59:25,519 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1192
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 3: We've we've kind of ran through everything and endorsed a

1193
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,360
couple of things. Uh, just get on board with getting

1194
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,079
rid of the draft and just turning everything into Premier

1195
00:59:34,159 --> 00:59:37,000
League soccer. I guess no, flatten the lottery, ods, flatten

1196
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,719
the lottery odds. Shout Spring Milikina Aqualogies Jared Allen