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Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 57 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:29.560 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 58 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:34.199 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 59 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:49.000 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. In March two 60 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:53.439 thousand and nine, pretty vivacious Ronda Casto plunged to her 61 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:55.360 death from a three hundred foot cliff. 62 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:58.680 In the Oregon Woods. The only witness, Stephen Nichols, the 63 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:02.759 father of her nine month baby Annie, told police investigators 64 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:06.840 she slipped and fell. Yet Nicholls's story didn't quite mesh 65 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:10.199 with the facts, and some of his other actions raised 66 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:13.960 suspicions as well, including just days after her death, trying 67 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:17.120 to collect on a million dollar life insurance policy he'd 68 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:20.319 taken out on his unemployed twenty three year old girlfriend 69 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:23.759 four months earlier. What had begun with a nine one 70 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:29.759 one called report and accident quickly turned into a homicide investigation. However, 71 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:33.560 in part due to lackluster police work, the case grew cold. 72 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:38.680 Then in twenty eleven, Dardy Robinson, a tenacious investigator with 73 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:42.400 a Portland law firm, began digging into the circumstances surrounding 74 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:46.879 Ronda's death. The law firm represented Ronda's mother, who believed 75 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:50.319 that Nichols, thirty four at the time, had murdered her daughter. 76 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:53.520 She wanted to prevent him from gaining custody of Annie 77 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:58.159 and the life insurance money. What Robinson discovered, including an 78 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:00.560 attempt by Nichols to throw his first wife off a 79 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:03.960 high rise balcony in China, as well as sexual abuse 80 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:08.639 allegations with Ronda's underage sister, convinced her that Ronda's death 81 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:12.680 was no accident. So began her six year battle to 82 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:16.439 save Annie from her father and fine justice for Ronda. 83 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:21.040 In the meantime, a parallel investigation into the case by 84 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:24.240 co author Steve Jackson, an award winning journalist in New 85 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:29.040 York Times, bestselling author and private investigator Tom McCallum posed 86 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:32.800 the same questions, what really happened to Ronda Castle on 87 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:37.399 that cold, rainy afternoon on the Eagle Creek trail and 88 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:40.639 what would become of her child? The book that we're 89 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:43.839 featuring this evening is Saving Annie, Book one the Fall, 90 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:47.639 a true crime series with my special guest, journalist and 91 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:51.480 author and publisher Steve Jackson. Welcome to the program, and 92 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:53.360 thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. 93 00:04:53.639 --> 00:05:00.319 Jackson, Hi, there, Dan, as always a pleasure to talk 94 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:00.519 to you. 95 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:03.879 It's always a pleasure for myself and I know it's 96 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:07.720 a real treat for the audience. You only deal with 97 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:13.199 extraordinary cases, and this is no exception. Let's start right 98 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:17.680 away with I guess we won't give too much away, 99 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:21.199 but we want to talk about that Saving Annie is 100 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:25.000 being published as a series of four books broken into 101 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:30.720 distinct parts of the investigation. So just explain what Saving 102 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:35.079 Annie is is as part of that four book series. 103 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.600 Well, okay, yeah, we're trying something new here, which is 104 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:47.319 the serialization of this book, the entire books called Saving Annie, 105 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:51.480 and then each one of the four parts, which we're 106 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:55.319 also calling the book as you sometimes do, it is 107 00:05:55.399 --> 00:06:01.720 a distinct part of this case. It was even before 108 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:05.399 I made this decision to try to do this, it was, uh, 109 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:09.279 it just lays itself out that way naturally, as as 110 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:13.879 four parts. So I kind of came up with this 111 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:18.879 idea of uh, you know, I've been kind of watching 112 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:26.480 the the serialization of podcasts such as Serial which became 113 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:33.000 very well known, and noticed how each part of the 114 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:38.720 series sort of created buzz and people uh talking about 115 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:41.240 the first part and then and then looking forward to 116 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:45.199 the second part. And and I remember back when I 117 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.160 was a kid, and I used to subscribe to Boy's Life, 118 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:52.160 and they'd have a story in there, and and and 119 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:54.879 I couldn't wait till the next month, and I talked 120 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:57.000 to my friends about it, and we'd wonder, you know, 121 00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:59.600 what happens in the next part. So I thought I 122 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:06.959 would try this little experiment in publishing and see, you 123 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:10.120 know how it's how it worked this way. There are 124 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.959 several other reasons. One is it is a there's a 125 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:17.079 lot of material to this book. If you take all 126 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.879 four parts of the book, it's a very large book, 127 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:24.600 especially in the way I wanted to write about it, 128 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:28.839 in the detail I wanted to include, So you know 129 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:30.639 that was sort of the impetus behind it. 130 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:37.920 Now, let's talk about the genesis of this entire project. 131 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.040 And December twenty eleven, you got a call from an 132 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:44.199 old friend, Tom McCollum. But you were surprised, but you 133 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:48.399 hadn't heard from him for about twenty years. Now, tell 134 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:52.079 us who he was and when you met, in the 135 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:56.199 circumstances and just of your friendship. And before you talk 136 00:07:56.279 --> 00:08:00.360 about the content of that call, it originally hit called 137 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:03.639 for advice, you'd say, you said, after all these years, 138 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.120 But tell us a little bit about this relationship, and 139 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:09.399 tell us then about that call and what he had 140 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:09.720 to say. 141 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:22.240 Well, I'd originally met Tom in nineteen ninety. The head 142 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:27.279 of the Oregon Corrections Department had been murdered in January 143 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.879 of nineteen eighty nine, and I was an investigative reporter 144 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:35.480 for a newspaper in Salem, organ at the time and 145 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:38.919 had been covering this story for quite a bit. It 146 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.519 was a very. 147 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:46.279 Different story in that it. 148 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.360 Had quickly become apparent to me that the police were 149 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:53.480 sort of had settled on Oh, it must have been 150 00:08:53.600 --> 00:09:02.000 a stranger came upon the Corrections Department director Michael Frankie 151 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:05.240 in the parking lot at night, robbed him as a 152 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:08.320 robbery gone bad. But there are a lot of things 153 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:11.480 were going on at that time that indicated it might 154 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:16.679 be something more of a conspiracy. And so I have 155 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:19.559 been working on this story for about a year. 156 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:22.480 When the police had arrested a. 157 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:28.720 Young man, a metheatic small time criminal named Frank. 158 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:29.759 Gable and. 159 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:35.799 And had settled on him as as the suspect. Not 160 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:39.600 just the suspect that but you know, this this idea 161 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:44.120 that he had, you know, come upon Frankie, tried to 162 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:47.039 rob him, got in a fight, killed him, and and 163 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:50.240 a lot of that just didn't didn't add up. And 164 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:52.799 it's a great story itself. It's one I plan on 165 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:57.120 writing someday. And even though it's been, like you said, 166 00:09:57.159 --> 00:10:02.000 it's been twenty some odd years. Anyway, as I was 167 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:06.679 writing about this story and Frank Gable had been arrested, 168 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:09.759 I get a call from a guy identifies himself as 169 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:14.320 Tom McCollum and says he's an investigator for Gable's defense 170 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:18.039 attorney and wants to know if I can talk to 171 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:23.080 if he can talk to me. And you know, I'm 172 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.759 an investigative reporter and I was doing my own work, 173 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.399 spends a year doing this, and this guy calls up 174 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.240 and wants to know everything I know. So I basically 175 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:35.320 told him, in several choice words, where he could go 176 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:37.080 with that, and hung up the phone. 177 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:40.600 He called back and tried. 178 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.559 To get a little bit farther, and I repeated the 179 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:47.639 process of hanging up the phone, and he called the 180 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:50.320 next day and he kept at it and said, hey, 181 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:52.360 I'll buy you lunch. You know that we don't even 182 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.039 have to talk about this. And from there, you know, 183 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:59.639 I he gained my trust, I gained his trust. 184 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:01.399 He was. 185 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:07.480 We both were working from different ways, different avenues on 186 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:12.039 this same story when overtime became friends and fishing, buddies 187 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:16.240 and everything else, even long after that story was gone, 188 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:21.879 and then I moved from Oregon and back to Colorado, 189 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:25.600 and we didn't completely lose in a while on the 190 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:29.039 phone or emailed or something like that. But when he 191 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:33.000 called in December twenty eleven, I hadn't heard from him 192 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:36.320 for quite some time, and as you note, it was 193 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:37.840 a different kind of phone call. 194 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:43.519 Now he talks about he's asking you about advice about 195 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:45.919 a book. So he's endeavoring to do that, and of 196 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:48.480 course it's a good person to call for advice would 197 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.679 be you. But he also has a conversation with you 198 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:56.360 about a client, this Gary Caster, who was an extremely 199 00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:59.200 rich guy, I can see, a multi billionaire, and he 200 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:03.360 had employed Tom and asked Tom to help him look 201 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.279 into a guy that was being a private investigator, look 202 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:12.679 into this guy who was dating his daughter. Mindy, now 203 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:14.840 you must have found this interesting. What did he say 204 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:17.720 about this person and who was this person that he 205 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.639 had found and what had had found out about this 206 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:22.960 person who was dating his daughter? 207 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:33.159 Right, basically, Gary Caster, which isn't an alias for someone else, 208 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.080 you know, was very concerned. You know, he's very wealthy man, 209 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:41.519 as you pointed out, so you know, he's got to 210 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.480 be careful about who gets close to his family. And 211 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.759 his daughter had brought this guy over he had a 212 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:53.440 young daughter, three or four years old at the time, 213 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:57.320 and brought her to you know, a family Christmas thing, 214 00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:00.559 or brought him to the family Christmas thing his daughter 215 00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:03.159 and and nobody got a good feeling from him. They 216 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.799 just felt he was, you know, creepy, and he's sort 217 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:13.840 of monotone and emotionless, and and and a number of 218 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:19.000 people there, including the ranch foreman where this wealthy person 219 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:22.559 in his family have a ranch there in central organ 220 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:25.799 And so he just called Tom to sort of run 221 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.279 a background check on this guy and see if there 222 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:30.919 was anything notable or maybe he was just an odd 223 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:34.799 duck and and they're all, you know, misjudging him or 224 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:38.480 something along those lines. But Tom started to look into 225 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:43.279 this guy, ran some crime checks on him and found 226 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:48.679 some restraining orders for violence, domestic violence, there were some 227 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:56.960 allegations of sexual improprieties, and and and started finding more 228 00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:00.759 and more about this guy that you know, obviously red 229 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:04.919 flags with the domestic violence and the restraining orders and. 230 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:08.559 So basically and. 231 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:12.840 Then right toward the end of it, they discovered because 232 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:17.399 this guy was involved in a custody case over the child, 233 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.320 found out that he was also had been suspected of 234 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:28.879 having girlfriend the child's mother off a cliff. And as 235 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:32.759 Tom looked into this, it seemed like, you know, okay, 236 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.559 whatever happened to this case. Did they resolve it, did 237 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:38.720 they close it, did they determine it was an accident? 238 00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:43.120 Was it still going? And Tom found out that it 239 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:46.759 was still an open investigation, but they didn't seem to 240 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:47.799 be doing much. 241 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:54.080 Now as a result, when you heard this story and 242 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:58.440 you got this information, he's planning to write a book. 243 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.159 It's the agreement between the two. What do you guys 244 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.840 decide to do as a result of what you've just 245 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:08.240 heard and everything, all the information that he has, and 246 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:10.559 both of you in the position that you are at 247 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:12.080 that time, what do you decide to do? 248 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:17.919 Actually Tom was working on a different book, a different 249 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:22.600 true crime. I was the one, well sort of together, 250 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:27.320 I guess he how you know, I started talking about 251 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.080 it's an interesting case, maybe I'd be interested in it 252 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:36.039 as a book, and Tom was also seemed that he 253 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:40.679 could use some help on the investigative end, as far 254 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:44.919 as I'm pretty good at paper chases and finding documents 255 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:50.399 and as well as interviews, and that maybe coming at 256 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:55.159 it from not together necessarily. I wasn't working as a 257 00:15:55.279 --> 00:16:00.879 PI and he wasn't necessarily working as a journalists, even 258 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:05.559 though at a different point he's been wanting to write 259 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:07.639 true crime books. And I said, well, you know, why 260 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:12.360 don't you learn by working with me on this book 261 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:17.679 as a writer and journalist as well. So basically we 262 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:22.080 just sort of combined forces, if you will, and started 263 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:24.679 looking into the case. There was a lot to run 264 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:29.960 down as far as documents and and finding people who 265 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:37.480 could have been witnesses, some people who would have popped 266 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.480 up on the witness list if I was a detective, 267 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:44.399 and who hadn't even been talked to by the police 268 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:49.440 at this point, though they would at a point. And 269 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:52.320 so that's that's sort of how we got started on 270 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.720 it and started finding more and more, and you know, 271 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.840 there's the little girl was sort of central in this, 272 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:05.400 Annie and as we started looking into this, we're wondering, 273 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:10.720 did the mother, ron de Casto, you know, had the 274 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:15.559 police done everything they could to make sure that, you 275 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:18.880 know her the case was closed one way or the other, 276 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:24.160 either through justice or if they ruled it in some 277 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:27.519 other ways than fine, But also for the little girl's sake. 278 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:32.359 Yes, you write that she was nine months old when 279 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:38.519 her mother died, and Annie was living currently with her father, Nichols. 280 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.960 So that was a big reason for writing this book 281 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.599 and wanting to do this investigation. As you write, now 282 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.440 tell us a little about what you find about the 283 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:53.400 investigation itself. Obviously, this was March sixteenth, two thousand and nine, 284 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:57.839 in the Hood River County. Of course, you were re 285 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:02.519 examining this after the fact. What's tell us about the 286 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.920 actual crime itself? Well, the. 287 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:14.480 Right the ninety one one call is that on March sixteenth, 288 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.480 two thousand and nine, about six o'clock in the evening, 289 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:23.119 that this is in Hood River, Oregon, which is a 290 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.079 town in the Columbia River Gorge, and this calls. They 291 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.359 get a call from the parking lot of a popular 292 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:36.559 trail there called the Eagle Creek Trail from a man 293 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:39.599 who first talks about that he needs help and can 294 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:42.200 you send somebody and all this sort of thing, and 295 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.279 kind of takes him a minute or two before he 296 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:51.279 lets them know that his girlfriend has fallen from the 297 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:58.000 cliff and he believes that she's dead, and and that 298 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:02.880 kind of starts the whole process, obviously the police showing 299 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:05.880 up and eventually a search and rescue team showing up. 300 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:11.440 But it's it's it's not nine to one one call, just. 301 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:13.480 There's some aspects about it. 302 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:18.559 You know, he's obviously more concerned that he's cold and wet, 303 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:22.359 and and some other things that will come into play 304 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:24.039 later on in this investigation. 305 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:26.000 M h. 306 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:29.759 Of course, that nine one one call is recorded, and 307 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:33.640 of course people, investigators, police, everyone will look at that 308 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:39.160 and review that later. You talked about the idea that 309 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.400 one of the first things that people can judge the 310 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.240 police do and they do put in their reports is 311 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.519 the behavior. And you talked about the coldness. So maybe 312 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.799 he could tell us a little bit more about what 313 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.680 this whole idea that he was so cold and preoccupied 314 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:59.000 with his own condition rather than what some people might 315 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:03.640 think is a normal response to his girlfriend, his fiance 316 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:09.519 just being dead. So tell us what the first responders 317 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:12.680 or he's talking to the nine one one operator and 318 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:16.359 then there's the first responder, and what does that first 319 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:19.160 responder encounter in terms of behavior from this person. 320 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:25.960 Well, again, it's this person who we learned by this 321 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:30.680 time as Stephen nickels Is. He talked about that, you know, 322 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.079 he tried to get to the body, and he tried 323 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.279 to swim up a creek, and he's wet and cold, 324 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:41.960 and it is March in Oregons and it had rained 325 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:46.880 and some even some sleep that day, so it's chilly outside. 326 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:52.960 But you know, i'd ask anybody out there, if you're 327 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:58.119 hiking on a trail and the person you love, your fiance, 328 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:00.400 plunges off the cliff. 329 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.160 What is your uh first thing You're. 330 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:09.359 Probably gonna say to the nine one one call uh operator, 331 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:14.519 uh that you're cold and can somebody please help you? 332 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:18.119 Or are you going to say, uh, my girlfriend fell 333 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:21.599 off a cliff and I think she's dead, and and 334 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.400 then maybe, by the way, I'm cold and I need 335 00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:29.480 some help. It's just it's just, you know, those sorts 336 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:34.519 of things that you know, you look at as an investigator. 337 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:41.640 It's it's the demeanor evidence, if you will, and and 338 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:44.200 demeanor evidence does count in the courtroom, by the way, 339 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:48.799 and and and so these sorts of things that some 340 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.559 people were almost right away. And by people, I mean 341 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:57.839 the first responders were kind of taken back a little 342 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:03.319 bit by this guy who is sort of phlegmatic when 343 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:08.000 he speaks is monotone. He's still more concerned about how 344 00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:11.799 cold he is. And then when they get him in 345 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.200 the ambulance, now he's had a little bit of time 346 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:18.160 in his car with the heater warmed up, but his 347 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:20.839 body temperatures are normal. 348 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:26.319 Yeah, right away too. You have one of the first 349 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:30.720 responders is a person from an interesting unit they called 350 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:37.079 the crag Rats. And these guys are experienced with rescue, 351 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:42.319 and also this person personally is experienced with the trail 352 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:47.119 itself and where it might be more difficult or more 353 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:50.400 prone to somebody having any kind of situation, since there 354 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.279 is a place called suicide point on this trail. Tell 355 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.400 us what his impression was. You say about other people doubting, 356 00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:00.160 you talk about doubting the story, but this person, and 357 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:04.160 based on that experience, has even more of a I 358 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:06.519 would say a stronger opinion about that. 359 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:11.559 Well. Yes, Jeff Pritcher, who was both the. 360 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.119 Chief of the Cascade Locks, which is the nearest small 361 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:20.799 town to this trail, of their fire departments and a 362 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:24.880 paramedic as well as being one of these crag Rats, 363 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:29.839 which is one of the top search and rescue teams 364 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:32.559 probably in the country. They've they've been at it a 365 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:36.319 long time. They have They do mountains, they do rivers, 366 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:39.160 they do just about everywhere. They have a lot of 367 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:40.200 territory they cover. 368 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.839 And he's struck too, just. 369 00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:49.279 When he talks to Nichols at the parking lot about 370 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:53.759 this guy's demeanor and some of the things he's saying, 371 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.839 as far as you know, he pulled her from the 372 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:03.680 river and that he tried to get up the river 373 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.680 and tried to swim up the river, and a number 374 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.279 of little things that, you know, he just kind of 375 00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:13.640 at that moment files the back of his head as 376 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:18.400 sort of strange. And then when another volunteer shows up, 377 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:22.640 apparently quickly after that, they head up the trail to 378 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:25.400 see if they can find the point where she went 379 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:29.519 off so they can locate her body. Nichols had said 380 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:32.119 he thought it was a mile up the trail, or 381 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:35.319 a mile and a half or or something along these lines. 382 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:36.839 So they had to and. 383 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:39.240 It's getting starting to get dark, so they had to 384 00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:41.960 kind of hurry up there and see if they can 385 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:46.119 spot her from the trail up above. 386 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:52.960 Yeah, you say that they have difficulty even getting down there, 387 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.519 so we'll talk about that. But at the same time, 388 00:24:55.839 --> 00:25:00.920 you have that a deputy smith Is has heard the 389 00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.519 nine to one one call. Now he wants to know 390 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:06.279 to hear the story. So police want to hear the 391 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:10.160 story from from Steve Nichols. And so what does he 392 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:16.759 say about Rhonda, their hike, her behavior, and the accident 393 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:19.119 itself as he describes. 394 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:26.079 It well, Nicol first, and he will change his story 395 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.880 a number of times throughout this talking to officers until 396 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:35.319 he finally quits talking at all, but you know, his 397 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:41.400 basic things. They went up there and she was acting crazy, 398 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.319 even though he says he doesn't remember her doing any 399 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:48.519 drugs or smoking any pot or anything else like that. 400 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:53.000 And if she's running down the trail with a towel 401 00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:56.839