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Speaker 1: You know the other day Jay, and he took notes

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from me and he said, like, almsgiving was one of

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the things you said.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you did he take notes from the underground

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for you? Tristan took.

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Speaker 3: Uh. You know.

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Speaker 2: So when I was at this one of the Orthodox

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conferences a couple of years ago, there was a Dustiesky

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scholar there and a big Orthodox guy, and he was

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going into depth about like how you need to do

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it in order, and his whole thing was, you got

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to start with notes from the underground. So Mark, I

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assume you've read that one, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a while though, Okay, yeah, I'm not

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as strong.

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Speaker 2: That's cool. It was probably fresh in Tristan's mind. So

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we should be live and if you would in the chat, everybody,

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if you can give me a little bit of a

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indicator mods, I can only trust the mods. Anybody else

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who asked this question to will troll me for the

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next three hours. We won't go for three hours, don't worry.

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But is the sound good? Can you guys? Hear those guys?

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Pretty good? Everybody good? Let me know in the chat

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I'll be paying attention. And tonight we're gonna talk about Dostievsky.

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We're gonna go through some of the works. I think

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everybody here tonight has had a decent amount of familiarity

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with elements of his works. Everybody here is pretty much

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a fan. We're all on the same page in terms

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of Orthodoxy. And it's great that he's one of the

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greatest writers of all time and he ended up being

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explicitly Orthodox, and I had forgotten that. I mean, I

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mean serious about his faith, not just you know, orthodox

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in name. But I had forgotten that elements of crime

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and punishment also relate to the events in his life

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when he tried to kind of go against the czar

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and ended up in front of the firing squad, and

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that was part of the story. I mean, he's kind

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of Raskolnikov, you know, to a degree in terms of

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crime and punishment due to his experience in that life

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changing event when he was, you know, put in front

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of the firing squad. So Tristan has just been finished

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or just been working through Demons. He's done a two

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really good installments over on his channel as well as

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in an analysis with Beslet Analyzer of Dostievsky in terms

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of Notes from the Underground so I want to recommend

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to everybody that if you haven't seen those, go and

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watch those. Also, Mark at Sold the East and at

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Espionage History Archive has quite a bit of information and

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essays and translations that he's done on Dostoevsky as well, including,

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for example, Dosievsky and Platonism is a two part essay

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he did over at sold the East that is really

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relevant to what we're going to talk about tonight. So

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let's start with you. Mark, tell us about maybe a

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little bit why you why you found him so interesting,

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and then maybe recount to us why it is that

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he matters in terms of that that classic story of

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being involved in revolutionary philosophy, and then what brought him

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to that firing squad incident.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so with Dostoyevsky, Uh, yeah, he is a fascinating,

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fascinating character. I put him up there with Shakespeare, you know,

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in terms of his brilliance as a writer. But the

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way I came to appreciate that Stayevsky was I was

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in college. I was a Russian major, and towards the

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end of college, you know, probably like around senior year,

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I I was never really into literature too much, you know,

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I mean I read you know, requisite stuff, you know,

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some tall stories, some grey yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,

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you know, like Scratch and Sniffs three books that kind

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of stuff.

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Speaker 3: But I never.

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Speaker 4: I for whatever reason, I was just really I was

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hyper focused on you know, KGB stuff and stuff stuff.

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Speaker 3: About like you know, the Cold War and or organized

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crime like assens. I love that stuff.

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Speaker 4: So, uh, one one day I ordered a book from

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this company called Eastview, which they shipped books from Moscow,

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which I thought was awesome, and I I ordered a

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book like it was like an academic study on contract killers,

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on professional killers in Russian and but the book they

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sent me was The Spiritual Roots of the Russian people.

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Speaker 3: So I just kind of like I kind of looked

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at it.

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Speaker 4: I was like, I don't want this, you know, like

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I I ended up giving it to my professor, who

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you know, and she she is actually you know, very

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well versed in Dustayevski.

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Speaker 3: But uh, that kind of set me on the path.

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Speaker 4: At least it was a scene in my mind that

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maybe I should look in to the spiritual roots of

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Russian culture since I was so I was so hyper

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focused on you know, geopolitics and intelligence stuff and things

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like that. Uh, I had a I had a seminar

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my senior year, and we, uh, my professor and I

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we went over the work of Nicholas Betzjaev. And Betazjaev

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was a Russian philosopher, and he wrote, uh, an excellent

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work on Dostayevsky, An Analysis of Dostaevsky.

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Speaker 3: And I recommend it to everyone. It's not too long,

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you know, it's.

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Speaker 4: Not like a super thick book, but it's it's it's

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very excellent, it's very incisive.

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Speaker 3: And uh, he recommended that.

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Speaker 4: To me, you know, for further reading by Betazjaev, and

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so I, you know, took it upon myself, you know,

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post college, you know, in the few years after, I

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eventually got into reading the Stayevsky and.

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Speaker 3: I didn't regret it.

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Speaker 4: He Stayevsky is someone who's not he's he's a superb psychologist,

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but he also goes into the depths of the human

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soul and you know, like all the way into the abyss,

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but he ultimately reaches for God. And that's that's what

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I love about him, is he ultimately seeks transcendence. And

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as an you know, as as an Orthodox Christian, he

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he you know, very specifically declared that you know the Yeah,

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the ultimate goal of our existence was unity with God,

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unity with Christ, the God Man.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I as far as.

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Speaker 4: Why is so important today, if you if you read

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his works, and you can start, like for those of

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uh you know, the audience who haven't read any of

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the Stayevsky yet, like you can start with the short stories.

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They're they're very interesting. And my my favorite short story

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of his is a Dream of a Ridiculous Man and

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that concerns nihilism and in in kind of a fantastic manner.

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But it's an it's an awesome story. It's uh yeah,

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it's it's entertaining and weird and dark and uh uh

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cool all at the same time. But uh, as far

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as why he matters today, I mean, Dostoyevsky has you know, uh,

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just a lot of commentary on metaphysics, on man's place

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in the cosmos, you know, the the struggle between good

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and evil within each person, as well as you know,

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things regarding i mean you know, made up politics or

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matters of culture and religion, and also things like you know, subversion, uh,

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secret societies, even.

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Speaker 3: T E R R R groups.

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Speaker 4: Uh, all that stuff is in they like you know, conspiracy,

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conspiracy stuff. It's it's especially in demons, you know, it's

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it's there. And and also you know, leading up to

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you know, the ultimate conspiracy, you know, kind of the

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mystery of iniquity, right that the you know, the figure

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of anti Christ.

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Speaker 3: Uh, he writes about all of it.

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Speaker 2: Was it all? So last question to you, uh, to

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be clear what what was this story about? Like he

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had been involved in some of these revolutionary you know

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movements when he was younger, and then he ends up

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before a firing squad and this becomes a very pivotal

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moment for him. Could you recount a little bit of

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that what that story was?

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Speaker 4: Sorry I forgot answered that part. So, yeah, dasta Yevsky

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Uh was a military engineer. And then you know he

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wrote on the side and his hes a as a

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young guy in Saint Petersburg, his his work, his early

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days of writing. Uh, it got a positive response, and

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he was hanging out with uh intellectuals you know what

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would later become uh the Slavophile Western divide.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: But he uh, he he was, he was, yeah, he was.

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He was really engrossed in you know, matters of intellect

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and and also you know, philosophy, and but he was

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he was definitely uh, someone who was he wanted a

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solution to the problems Russia was facing at the time,

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you know, especially the the the question of serfdom and

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you know, the free freedom for the serfs.

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Speaker 3: Uh, you know, he that that was that was something that.

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Speaker 4: He really devoted a lot of attention to and he

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he felt, you know, a great kinship with the Russian people.

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So uh, in a lot of the intellectual circles he ran,

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and they were discussing socialist ideals and.

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Speaker 3: Ultimately he he.

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Speaker 4: He joined a group called the Petrashevsky Petroshevsky but the

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Petrashevsky Circle.

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Speaker 2: And now was this like was this like a secret

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society or was it just a bunch of kind of

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goofy you know, college.

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Speaker 4: Intellectual Yeah, it was more of an intellectual club. They

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did discuss you know some you know what we're considered, uh,

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you know, more politically risky topics. You know that we're

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not in sync with uh the uh you know, the

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bizarre or you know that what was is just formally

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called the uh the autocracy. But uh, what happened was

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the Petroshevsky Circle basically split off into a smaller group

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and they started and that included Dastayevsky, and they started

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talking like hardcore revolution and overthrowing the government, you know,

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and you know, creating like bringing about a regime that

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would uh be that would solve the Russian people's problems,

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and that that uh that ultimately of course attracted the

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attention of the Czar's secret Service, the secret police.

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Speaker 3: They were called the the Third Section.

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Speaker 2: You have an essay on this too, right, yes, yes, I.

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Speaker 4: Think it's called Dostoyevsky's Secret War. And yes, so that

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group that's smaller, that subgroup of the Petroschewsky circle was

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penetrated by an agent of the Third Section who then, uh,

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basically I was able to provide information on everyone and

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they were all rounded up.

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Speaker 2: So they had us, they had us, They had a

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sus Glowy in their midst Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you know, it's it's it's yeah.

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Speaker 3: It was a counter counter intelligence type operation.

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Speaker 4: And and so Dostoyevsky ended up in the Peter Paul Fortress, uh,

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and he got sentenced to death for I think it

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was for being at a he was present at a

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reading of revolutionary literature or was there was a band letter.

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I think it might have been a billion Ski letter.

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Billionski was like a pro western. He was a Westernizer writer,

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you know, uh, you know, as opposed to the Slavophiles,

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of which you know, Staevsky would be a major inspiration.

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Speaker 2: Right, And I assume by pro Western you mean the

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ideas of Western liberalism.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Western liberalism, enlightenment. Yeah, these these types of ideas.

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And uh, Sostayevsky he he he was about to be

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executed and by firing squad, I believe, and uh, but

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the bizarre had played a prank on him and he

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wasn't actually going to be executed, but uh, at the

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very last moment it was called off and.

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Speaker 1: It was Ashton Kutcher.

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Speaker 2: Did that, right?

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Speaker 1: I thought it was Ashton?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was that.

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Speaker 4: He got punk Yeah yeah, and Ashton Kutcher. He at

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the Peter Paul Fortress. You can see it today. There's

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a plaque where.

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Speaker 3: It's it's him.

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Speaker 4: It's a bronze plaque where it's got Ashton Cooker Kutcher

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and his trucker hat, punking death Dayevski but so so

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right when he was about to be executed by the

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firing squad, or so he thought. The basically, the news

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came in that you know, he was spared, and uh,

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you know, his his sentence would be commuted to uh

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service in the army in Siberia.

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Speaker 3: And and that's where he went.

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Speaker 4: To a place to Omsk, I believe, and uh so

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he he served several years in Siberia, and uh, you

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know was writing but that that that execution had a

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had a tremendous effect on Dostayevsky psyche and you know,

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he was he was he was face to face with

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death and you know, the the existential effect of that

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was was you know, enormous for him, and that kind

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of impacted the rest of his life as well.

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Speaker 2: And would you say this is sort of a defining

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period where it kind of turned him back towards taking

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Christianity more seriously?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think so. I think it was, you know,

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it was in in a way it was kind of

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a Damascus moment.

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Speaker 4: Where yeah, and and Dossky had never really abandoned Christianity.

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He had never he never you know specifically, you know,

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he never renounced Christ or and and and and he

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was also a Russian patriot. But uh, but he did

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ultimately see the danger of these types of you know,

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nine list revolutionary ideals where they could lead.

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Speaker 3: And you know, set out in his work. Ultimately, the

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the the.

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Speaker 4: The crowning gem of that, like his made up politics

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is really his demons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go to that next for you

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guys both. Tristan, you recently did Notes from the Underground.

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It's been probably ten years since I read it, so

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it's not really fresh in my mind. I'd kind of

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recall the the main points, and I did listen to

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you and base lit analyze recover it. So and usually

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you know a lot of professors, especially orthodox professors, they'll

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tell you to kind of start with Notes from the

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Underground if you want to get into his works. Tristan,

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give us a little recap of that one and what

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you found so penetrating and insightful, I guess in terms

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of the human psyche and the nature of evil, why

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we're drawn to evil? If you recall your notes Notes

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from the Underground.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was a fantastic book. I it's

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I don't even know where to start with it. I

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mean it's it's a small book, right, I mean it's

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like one hundred pages and it really historically it kind

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of opened up the door for like a lot of

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other existentialist writers. He seemed to kind of even pioneer

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the the idea of the untrustworthy narrative narrator. Right, so

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it's the narrator. My understanding is that the narrator is

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set apart from Dostoyevsky. Right, the narrator is kind of

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an anti hero. He's maybe even kind of a villain

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in some ways. You know, when I read it, I

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know you could see how some people would take the narrator,

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who is an embittered guy. Like the first line of

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the novel is, Yeah, i'm a i'm a I'm a

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sick man. I'm a i'm a i'm a what's that

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I'm a sick man. I'm a I'm a wicked man.

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I think my liver is diseased. Yeah, it doesn't say

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I like the translator. Well, something I actually wanted to

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ask Mark about what translation do you think is best?

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Because I actually I very much enjoyed the translation that

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I read of Notes from the Underground and the first

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line they translated not as a wicked man, because it

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is is a nihilistic character. Right. I think in the

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heavier translation. They use wicked. But he's spiteful as the word, right,

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So he's he's very spiteful character. What do you think

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about that opening line? How do you prefer it spiteful

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or with you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, I think spiteful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, okay, So I I read that. Uh, I

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read the Stayski in Russian, but from what I hear

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the wol translations are pretty good. So Volkonski v O

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l k h O n s k y supposedly those

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are good from what I from what I've.

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Speaker 1: Read, cool cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And when I saw that it had been translated as wicked,

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it kind of it all. I was kind of offended almost,

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as like, why would it be wicked? This guy doesn't

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believe in the very in like evil, he doesn't believe

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that evil exists. Right, He's a nihilistic character, and he's

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a real spie full character. And you know, it's the

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first part of the novel is kind of him just

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ranting to himself, but also talking to his audience and

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addressing the audience and mocking the audience. So it's it's

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kind of like him speaking in the mirror. It's almost

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like a you know, eighteenth century vlogger, you know, and

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he's addressing the haters the whole time, right, He's kind

316
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of he's kind of battle wrapping the haters. The narrator here,

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he's ripping on other authors, so you kind of see

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Thoseki's world view popping through this author. Then you also

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see the narrator rather, but you also see kind of

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a scathing critique and a you know, like a piercing

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gaze in the mirror at the you know, horrific state

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of his soul. It seemed like a very contemplative, meditative

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and therapeutic book Ford No Stayevski And yeah, I mean,

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as far as you know the themes of the book,

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there's so much going on here.

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Speaker 2: I mean, well, one thing that I recall him me, yes,

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if you if you got this, and if I remember right,

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is that the writer isn't he kind of like a

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middle low class clerk guy who's kind of very petty

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and very He's reflecting on humans and human nature, and

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one thing that comes up is the question of why

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if mankind's problem is just a lack of knowledge or IQ,

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then he begins to reflect upon the pleasure that certain

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people have in just causing other people pain, and so

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it doesn't even mentioned. You know, he says, Cleopatra, she

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got great pleasure out of you know, poking her servants

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with you know, pokers or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yo, using golden yeah, like golden pins in the

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breasts of her servants.

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Speaker 2: And the reason that, yeah, what I want to ask

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you is that the reason this matters is because, pretty

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consistently in his works he's critiquing a lot of Western

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Enlightenment ideas, and here he seems to be saying that

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he has an insight into human nature. He or that

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humans don't just operate on the basis of knowledge or facts. Otherwise,

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why would you have an evil genius? Right? I mean,

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if all humans needed was the right education, external stimuli,

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and so forth, then it would we wouldn't have this

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problem of people who are just inherently devious and malicious,

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especially if they're highly intelligence.

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Speaker 1: Destroys the idea of utilitarianism. Everybody's just if everyone just

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acted in their own enlightened self interest, then we would

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have this perfect utopia. And you know, he uses this

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the metaphor of like the Crystal Palace, and he saw

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the Crystal Palace, which was this you know, art exhibit

356
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in I think London and eighteen eighteen fifties, I believe

357
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marked you you know what year that was, And.

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Speaker 4: See I thought it was eighteen sixty something, but I

359
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could be wrong.

360
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Speaker 3: I can't. Yeah, well, I mean I think I'm wrong,

361
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but it was eighteen I thought it was eighteen sixty eight,

362
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but it might.

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Speaker 1: Have been because it was it was he was allowed

364
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to go there was after his exile in Siberia, and

365
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he actually did visit that place. And there's a letter

366
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in the version I've got. There's a great letter after

367
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Notes from the Underground. There's a letter to his brother,

368
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and it's not a part of the novel, but there's

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a letter to his brother and he's writing about the

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Crystal Palace and what he saw in the experience of

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the Crystal Palace. He described it as the Tower of Babel.

372
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He described it as a demonic, giant machine that he

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felt and wanted to consume him. And he felt this

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awe at this giant structure, which was a you know,

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palace made of steel and crystal, and he he thought

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that this was horrific and one of the most terrible

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things he'd ever seen. Beautiful but horrific. So you know

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the idea of building this world of utopia and everybody's

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enlightened self interest. He uses this. He says, well, well

380
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why not just destroy that, you know it? Well, we'll

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build this up and then we'll destroy it just to

382
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see it destroyed. And what if man's interest is to

383
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cause himself pain? How can you reconcile because there's no

384
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there's no evidence that man actually does and work in

385
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his enlightened self interest. He says, man is a is

386
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it an ungrateful beast? He says, man should be called

387
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the ungrateful biped basically, and that man doesn't appreciate anything

388
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that he has and is. And he gets to this,

389
00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:26,400
he really in a very eloquent way, more eloquent than

390
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,839
I'm you know, doing credit giving credit to it. He

391
00:22:30,039 --> 00:22:35,599
he he destroys utilitarianism, the idea of everybody just working

392
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there own enlightened self interest to build a utopia. It says,

393
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this is never gonna happen. Man is very irrational, Man

394
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behaves irrationally, and man is falling. So he's dealing with

395
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these these ideas of kind of you know, man's man.

396
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Speaker 2: He's being honest about falling man. Yeah, right, And how

397
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,039
the light. Yeah, the Enlightenment view of man is false. Uh,

398
00:22:57,079 --> 00:22:59,960
it's based on these ideals that are completely you know,

399
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not taking into account of the fall. So whether you

400
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,720
believe in the fall or not is going to condition

401
00:23:04,799 --> 00:23:08,160
how you believe in man's condition, right, whether you think

402
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,799
he's a being that can you know, fix himself through

403
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,960
education or whatever, or whether he's fallen and that's why

404
00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:20,160
he's so. Dostievsky is often class with Nietzsche with being

405
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,000
kind of the founders of existential existential crisis literature. All

406
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,000
will stem from this, right, everybody, Sartra, All these guys

407
00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:28,880
are going to look back to these kinds of stories,

408
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:34,119
especially crime and punishment. But you guys both are I've

409
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,440
not read Demons yet, so you guys know a lot

410
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,480
more about that. And the thing that really fascinates me

411
00:23:39,759 --> 00:23:43,119
is the prophetic elements, not just in Demons, but also

412
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,480
Grant Inquisitor chapter in Brothers Karamattsov is very prophetic. So Tristan,

413
00:23:49,559 --> 00:23:51,240
let me ask you first, like, give us a little

414
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,240
bit of overview of that book, what it's about, and

415
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,720
and then we'll go over to Mark in terms of

416
00:23:56,759 --> 00:23:58,480
his analysis, what what are the themes that we want

417
00:23:58,519 --> 00:24:01,079
to pay attention to in Demons and what's I know

418
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,359
it's I know it's a lot. Because you've done two podcasts.

419
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:04,920
I want to I want to remind everybody to go

420
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,359
to Tristan's channel and you can, you know, see his

421
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,079
his Demons breakdown. But can you can you give us

422
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:12,519
a little bite sized nugget?

423
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Speaker 1: Yeah? Thanks, thanks man, Yeah, I know, I'll do the

424
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,240
fun size Demons analysis. And now, I mean, it's one

425
00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:21,519
of my favorite novels I've ever read, right, I mean,

426
00:24:21,519 --> 00:24:23,759
if i've I've finished it. I digested it really slowly.

427
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,799
It's a uh, it's a big novel. I mean it's

428
00:24:26,839 --> 00:24:30,920
something like maybe eight hundred pages long, and there are sections,

429
00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:33,400
there are sections in here that are just, you know,

430
00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:38,240
so scathing and beautiful in the critique of kind of

431
00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:40,240
the same themes that he's critiquing and Notes from the

432
00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:43,039
Underground a certain extent, but he goes even further right,

433
00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:46,119
So the character of the you know, the underground man,

434
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,319
the clerk in Notes from the Underground, he's this bitter

435
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,279
man who you know, kind of lives in this basement

436
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,000
dwelling and it's constantly dwelling on all the problems in

437
00:24:56,039 --> 00:24:58,359
the world and it's always everyone else's fault. But he's

438
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,319
just really battling with himself right now. That that that Enlightenment

439
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:08,400
rationalism that he's dealing with is expanded on in a

440
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,839
book that analyzes two different generations generation of the liberals,

441
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,839
like eighteen forties liberals.

442
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,839
Speaker 2: You call them the eighteen hundreds boomers, didn't you.

443
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: The eighteen hundreds boomers? Right, So you've got you've got

444
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:25,680
a generation of Jordan Peterson's raising, a generation of Baked

445
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,559
Alaska's right, because we got to You've got these liberals

446
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,519
who are raising reactionary nihilists who are just you know,

447
00:25:31,559 --> 00:25:35,839
hell bends on destruction. And it's it's it's really it's

448
00:25:35,839 --> 00:25:38,640
a beautifully written book. It's really funny as well, you know,

449
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,759
I mean, there's a serious subjects and same with Those

450
00:25:40,799 --> 00:25:43,279
from the Underground. Those from the Underground is a it's

451
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,359
kind of a difficult read, especially the first section of

452
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:46,799
Those from the Undground is kind of hard to read.

453
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,480
Demons flows better. It's conversation based, it's you know a

454
00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:54,000
lot of different scenes with characters discussing their worldviews, discussing

455
00:25:54,039 --> 00:25:57,559
events in their lives, and it really is it's it's

456
00:25:57,599 --> 00:26:03,039
a story of generational strife, generational clash, and a story

457
00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:06,799
of the root of like the spirit of revolution. Really

458
00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:11,640
it's it's a it's an allegory for the revolutionary spirit.

459
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,559
And it's a historical novel in any ways, right, because

460
00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:18,079
as we're talking about in the beginning, Dostoevsky was involved

461
00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:21,200
in these revolutionary circles. In the Petrzschewsky circle, there was

462
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,960
this like inner group and the guy there's this guy Speciev,

463
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,000
and Speciev was really interested in like Baboo's Conspiracy of Equals,

464
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,720
and he was obsessed with Barwells's book on the Jacobins.

465
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:37,759
And he had been essentially like initiated through literature and

466
00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:40,279
possibly other routes, because you, I mean again, this is

467
00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:44,000
a noble special Nev was a wealthy landowner, basically a

468
00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:46,279
spoiled brat who never worked a day in his life,

469
00:26:46,319 --> 00:26:51,240
like all revolutionaries, and raised by liberals who, well, you know,

470
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,559
we believe in truth, but yes, but but no, we're

471
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:55,920
a little bit of God, but.

472
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,079
Speaker 3: Not not that God, but.

473
00:26:57,759 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: Yes, no, you know that there's their parents are these

474
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,079
lukewarm liberals, right, and and and the children grow up

475
00:27:05,079 --> 00:27:08,359
to be full on just like demonic.

476
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 5: Demons, and there's not and that now the book is

477
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,319
called Demons, and but it's so it is one of

478
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,640
the best books, I think, one of the best like

479
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,440
psychological novels that I've ever read, probably.

480
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: The best psychology psychological novel I've ever read. And also

481
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,599
it's a it's a it's a psycho spiritual novel, right,

482
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,359
because the book is titled Demons.

483
00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:34,039
Speaker 2: You say, are you saying it's shacko spiritual, like in

484
00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:36,680
the way that old Matthew says A shacko.

485
00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: There's not an actual demon in you know, there's not

486
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,039
like a there's not like a Frank character. You know,

487
00:27:46,079 --> 00:27:48,359
there's not like an actual demon in the in the

488
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,319
novel that all the characters are influenced by.

489
00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:53,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to say that there. Actually, when I

490
00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:55,759
was reading Crime and Punishment, I felt like there was

491
00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:59,880
a section where he was actually verging on saying that

492
00:28:01,319 --> 00:28:04,519
either Raskalnikov or the guy who's like the m O

493
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,559
L E. S t E. R. Molester guy. I don't

494
00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:09,119
know why I just said it, if I spilled it out,

495
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:14,079
but I think, actually, yeah, I think at one point

496
00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:16,319
he actually hints like that he was possessed, like I

497
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,319
remember distinctly getting really kind of I was so into

498
00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:22,039
the novel. I remember like like it was really affecting

499
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:23,599
me at a certain point in the story when it's like, oh,

500
00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:27,079
this is like a demonically possessed guy, I think I

501
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,119
have a note on it. But go ahead with the.

502
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 3: Staysky just real quick.

503
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 4: The yeah, the wall, like the barrier between this world

504
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,440
and the other world is very thin, and uh, the

505
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,599
the like the demonic phenomena are just kind of right

506
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:52,160
below the surface. And uh, it's very ambiguous, but if

507
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,119
you you know, but you can you can see it,

508
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,440
you can sense it. And in demons it's kind of

509
00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:06,680
it's it's not it's not explicit, but the the characters.

510
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,599
Speaker 3: Act as if they are possessed.

511
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,559
Speaker 4: And I think I think the the traditional, you know,

512
00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:16,079
the classical orthodox Christian concept of that is that the

513
00:29:16,079 --> 00:29:17,599
demons attach themselves.

514
00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: To the passions, Yeah, exactly.

515
00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 4: And from there that they're able to, you know, gain

516
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,480
a foothold in people.

517
00:29:23,759 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: And you know, and I love how he does it.

518
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,799
He doesn't do it in a corny way, doesn't do

519
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:32,440
it in a weird, preachy way. You know, there's there's

520
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,640
not a character, there's not like this single, you know,

521
00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:40,039
omniscient righteous character in the book. There there are redemption.

522
00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:44,519
There are kind of character arcs that have redemption and

523
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,279
even embracing Christ. But it's done in a way that's

524
00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:51,680
not it's not corny and preachy. Really he handles it well,

525
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,559
it's classy, right, but yeah, the demons permeate the story,

526
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,799
and he'll use he used the there's a lot of

527
00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:04,240
it's always like it's very subtle. But then you'll see

528
00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:07,119
there are threads throughout the novel, like'll he'll use this

529
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,759
term their eyes flashed. That one happens a lot, his

530
00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:14,640
eyes flashed, his face contorted, right, like these small contortions

531
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,559
or small facial expression changes.

532
00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:22,319
Speaker 3: But then he's his expression is or not his face

533
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:22,920
is a mask.

534
00:30:24,039 --> 00:30:26,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love the way that he describes stuff rogue.

535
00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:32,640
And then you know Pyotr Stepanovitch and his manic behavior,

536
00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:35,599
and you know he's he becomes drunk on his own

537
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,359
perceived power. At times, you can just see him lashing

538
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:42,160
out manically, trying to get characters to do his will.

539
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:44,960
While he's telling them that they have free will, he's

540
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,960
he's cursing them for deviating in any way whatsoever. From

541
00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:52,359
his will and his revolutionary kind of you know, conspiratorial

542
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,359
thing that he's trying to bring everybody into. But you know,

543
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,559
I highly recommend that anybody who's interested in this read

544
00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:02,720
the books. It's a big one. It'll take it might

545
00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:04,240
take you a month if you have, you know, a

546
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,359
job and stuff, but is well worth reading. It's better

547
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,319
better than anything on Netflix. Tell you that, Mark, or

548
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,599
but also check out my last two streams. They're about

549
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,559
a month long in actual length, so it will also

550
00:31:17,559 --> 00:31:19,079
take you a month to get through those streams of

551
00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:22,759
me talking about demons. But yeah, it's It's definitely one

552
00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:25,720
of my favorite novels. I think the way that the

553
00:31:25,799 --> 00:31:31,960
characters are developed, the nihilists coming from the liberals, and

554
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,119
and also the way that the conspiracy that they get

555
00:31:36,119 --> 00:31:43,039
involved in works is historically accurate, hauntingly prophetic, as well

556
00:31:43,079 --> 00:31:45,559
as far as like what happens later on fifty years

557
00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:48,359
after it was published and in the Bolshevik Revolution.

558
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: Mark, there was something that I want to ask you

559
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,519
that you highlighted in previous podcast, and that was the

560
00:31:56,559 --> 00:31:59,160
issue of the sort of prophetic nature of the you

561
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:04,240
know Youpia being built on millions of skulls could you

562
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:06,400
comment on that that he seemed to have this dust Yes,

563
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,559
he's gonna have this insight into what this revolution bring about,

564
00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:12,759
you know what two decades or so three days. I

565
00:32:12,759 --> 00:32:15,640
don't remember how when it was written, but it was many.

566
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, he wrote it in the like eighteen seventy one

567
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:20,400
there and.

568
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then you know the Russian Revolution, you know,

569
00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:28,839
about fifty years later. So yeah, yeah, yeah, so that

570
00:32:28,839 --> 00:32:36,680
that he dust Aski was absolutely prophetic. His his, Uh,

571
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,240
that's what's so great about this novel, Demons is that

572
00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:42,079
it's it's very multi dimensional and multi layered.

573
00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: So you have this.

574
00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:54,599
Speaker 4: Organization of revolutionaries that you know, it's it's very conspiratorial,

575
00:32:55,559 --> 00:32:59,519
but it's also they go into you know, the theory

576
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,799
of the revolution and the implementation of their utopia and

577
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,559
how they're going, you know, the praxis of of their ideology,

578
00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:16,400
and and it basically amounts to uh, total freedom for

579
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,759
the revolutionarily. So around you know ten, like one out

580
00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:22,240
of ten and then for the the other nine out

581
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,240
of ten, complete slavery. They'll serve their matt the elite,

582
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,920
and they will be you know, basically automatons in a

583
00:33:34,039 --> 00:33:40,920
kind of technocratic panopticon. More or less where there's you know,

584
00:33:41,119 --> 00:33:43,240
complete complete surveillance.

585
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:46,359
Speaker 2: Also does it does it actually get into like those

586
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,640
technocratic themes a.

587
00:33:48,599 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 4: Little bit, but he talks about totals, he talks about

588
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,400
total surveillance. It's the technocracy and demons is more implied

589
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,920
by by Sugar, the theoretician of the revolutionaries, well and

590
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:10,840
by Virkavinski the who is the he's the revolutionary son

591
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:18,000
and he he is just you know, pure Machiavelian. Everything's

592
00:34:18,039 --> 00:34:22,280
based on expediency and and so it's it's kind of

593
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:23,639
this demonic rationalism.

594
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a there's explicit reference in crime and

595
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,320
punishment to utilitarianism and utilitarianism had you know, Bentham is

596
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,159
who is involved in this idea of panopticon, and that's

597
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,239
formative for technocracy. So I wouldn't be surprised that there

598
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,639
weren't allusions to that.

599
00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

600
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, even in a Notes from the Underground he does

601
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,320
mention the end of the technocracy. Says we'll have we'll

602
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:53,239
have like an algorithm that will Yeah, he says that

603
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,159
you know, there can be he calls.

604
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: It a logger.

605
00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: We can we can have a logarithmic calculation that will

606
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,559
calculate to whatever, one hundred eleven thousand decimals, and and

607
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:07,920
everybody's whole life can be calculated before they even lived, right,

608
00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:11,519
That's the first novel we talked about. That's from the Underground.

609
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:19,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, total planning, total control, and complete slavery for almost everyone.

610
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:24,199
Besides this. Uh it's and we got to keep in

611
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,440
money like that. Stayevsky was writing at the same time

612
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,599
as Nietzsche. So the there's there's also the concept here

613
00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:34,119
of the the overman or the uber mensch, the superman

614
00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:37,480
who has total freedom, and that that was also in

615
00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:38,159
Crime and Punch.

616
00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: It's big yeah and Crime Punch Yeah yeah.

617
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 4: And he he developed a further here and in Demons.

618
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,440
Uh so, you know, and he he's very explicit. He says,

619
00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:51,199
you know, there, I think it was I think the

620
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,000
number was like ten million.

621
00:35:53,079 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 3: He says, ten million heads.

622
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,599
Speaker 1: You know it was one hundred yea, it was one

623
00:35:57,639 --> 00:35:59,519
hundred million, Yeah, one hundred million heads.

624
00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:03,039
Speaker 4: We will build old paradise, wow, on these schools, you know,

625
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,920
so and lo and behold there was you know, the

626
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,559
twentieth century was you know, full of full of this

627
00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:13,239
type of murder.

628
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,599
Speaker 3: So uh yeah, it's it's it's pretty striking.

629
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,119
Speaker 2: Now, is there any I don't want to you know,

630
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:24,079
I feel make you guys feel like you have to

631
00:36:24,119 --> 00:36:27,119
stop talking about you know, demons. Is there anything else

632
00:36:27,159 --> 00:36:30,480
that you find relevant? Again, like, I haven't read that

633
00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:32,119
one yet, so you know, this is this is where

634
00:36:32,119 --> 00:36:34,280
you guys can really you know, help me out here

635
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,880
and fill us in. I mean, are there any explicit

636
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,440
references to secret societies? I know that Tristan, you had

637
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,119
kind of mentioned that the other day and you're.

638
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's like the whole the whole

639
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,480
thing is based around these circles, these circles and these

640
00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:47,760
groups of five, which you know, is all reflecting kind

641
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,079
of the I go in my last couple of streams,

642
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,840
I go through and kind of show the historical references

643
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,679
that are implicit in the revolutionary model that's being employed

644
00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:02,400
by Appel Term and stuff, Rogan and these revolutionaries in

645
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,960
the groups. So yeah, they openly are referencing the ideas

646
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,679
of the group of five, the circle and the circles

647
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,679
that are just a chain. He said. At one point,

648
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:16,639
he says, you know, he implies to the other people

649
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:19,519
in this group that you are part of this small

650
00:37:19,559 --> 00:37:23,280
group and it's a part of a large chain, a

651
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,400
long rope, and there are a thousand knots in this

652
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:28,800
rope going all throughout Europe and Russia, and and we

653
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,440
are going to bring about this this great upheaval, and

654
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:33,760
and and even.

655
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:38,760
Speaker 2: You had said one of the characters references to Jacobins,

656
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,880
and so that would be a pretty direct connection to

657
00:37:41,079 --> 00:37:43,039
the real aluminists.

658
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:43,639
Speaker 4: Yeah.

659
00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:47,679
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's it's a boof II shopped. I mean,

660
00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:51,239
these these people that these historical revolutionaries actually employed the

661
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,519
same exact methods that are being being demonstrated here, and

662
00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:57,280
they had the same worldview, right, Like what Mark was

663
00:37:57,559 --> 00:38:00,800
mentioning just a minute ago, He's talking about Shigo, right,

664
00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:04,000
I was looking for the quote, but he you know

665
00:38:04,039 --> 00:38:09,679
that it says we're gonna mister schigogiov is all too

666
00:38:09,679 --> 00:38:12,559
seriously devoted to this task. And what's more, it's too modest.

667
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,639
I know. His book, he suggests, as a final solution

668
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,679
to the question, the division of mankind into two unequal parts.

669
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,480
One tenth is granted freedom of person and unlimited rights

670
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,480
over the remaining nine tenths, These must lose their person

671
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:30,159
and turn into something like a herd and an unlimited

672
00:38:30,199 --> 00:38:34,320
obedience through a series of regenerations attained to a primeval innocence,

673
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,599
something like the primeval paradise, though by the way they

674
00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:40,039
will have to work. The measures proposed by the author

675
00:38:40,039 --> 00:38:42,559
for removing the will of nine tenths of mankind and

676
00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:44,920
remaking them into a herd by means of a re

677
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,880
educating of entire generations are quite remarkable, based on natural

678
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,400
facts and extremely logical. One may one may disagree with

679
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,440
certain conclusions, but it's difficult to doubt the author's intelligence

680
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,000
and knowledge. So this is another character talking about shig

681
00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:00,840
Yell's idea here. So, yeah, one tenth of you will

682
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,840
have liberty, uh, and nine tenths of you will have equality, well,

683
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:10,480
the one total right, So they're reconciling the revolutionary the

684
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:16,119
retard trinity of liberty, fraternity, and equality, which is this

685
00:39:16,199 --> 00:39:21,559
is empty slogans. But those empty slogans are are really

686
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,840
kind of diametrically opposed those concepts, the concept of liberty

687
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,199
and fraternity. I'm sorry, liberty and equality just those two

688
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,239
those can't exist together. If you have liberty, how could

689
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,519
you have equality? Right, So that well, you will have

690
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,199
one tenth that will have liberty and rights, so over

691
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,159
all the other nine tents, and they'll have equality as

692
00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:43,000
slaves and a herd, and they'll be re educated over generations.

693
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: He says, oh, really, so it's a generational education and.

694
00:39:46,679 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 4: He thought, yeah, he speaks specifically about that, that re education.

695
00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:55,880
It's it's basically pushing degeneracy. Everyone informs one on each other,

696
00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:04,199
total surveillance and uh yeah, just the just anti intellectualism,

697
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:04,639
you know.

698
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 1: And also yeah, and also destruction of the family, and

699
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,400
he talks about you know, he's like, he's like, look,

700
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,119
everybody's people aren't going to church. Look how much people

701
00:40:13,159 --> 00:40:15,840
are drinking. There's vodka everywhere. He's like, I saw a

702
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,119
little girl swearing at her mother the other day. And

703
00:40:18,159 --> 00:40:20,159
he's like, I know it's bad. We'll stop it one day,

704
00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:23,119
but we need to accelerate this now, and then we're

705
00:40:23,159 --> 00:40:26,079
gonna basically, you know, we'll be the we'll be the kings.

706
00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:28,400
He's like, and he even says, we'll get the Pope involved.

707
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,360
The Pope will be down for it. The Pope, well,

708
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:36,400
he'll he'll he'll he'll embrace this, and yeah, it's it's.

709
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,519
Speaker 2: All the things you're saying. The revolutionary say that.

710
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,519
Speaker 1: The revolutionary says we'll get the pope.

711
00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 2: Wow, because that's it.

712
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 3: That's very interesting.

713
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,599
Speaker 2: Well that's what the Grand Quisitor said. Yeah, and the

714
00:40:47,639 --> 00:40:52,039
Grand the Grand Inquisitor says that too, more or less.

715
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's the same. It's the same.

716
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 4: It's it's it's the third Temptation of Christ, where what

717
00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:03,280
worldly power is offered, you know, if you bound down

718
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,039
to the to the rebel angel.

719
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, the same.

720
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: Now I'm done.

721
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: And Jay, you mentioned like the idea the conspirator, conspiratorial

722
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,639
circles and stuff. At one point a character the liberal

723
00:41:15,679 --> 00:41:19,079
Father of Pelter. His name is Stepan Trofimovic, and he's

724
00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:23,960
basically he's like Jordan Peterson. He very much like Jordan Peterson.

725
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,719
He's this kind of bumbling liberal who's this great poet professor,

726
00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:30,079
and he's always talking about how he's about to write

727
00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:32,519
something great, but he's never really written anything, and he

728
00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:35,000
just kind of he's not a full on nihilist. He's

729
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,639
not the most liberal, but he's liberal enough where he

730
00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:40,000
wants to be perceived as liberal. And you know, he's

731
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:41,679
he's a great character.

732
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 2: Does he represent classical liberalism?

733
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 1: He very much embraces classical liberalism. And then actually he

734
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,199
does have a great redemption arc, so you know that's

735
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:52,320
I do compare to Jordan Peterson, but it's not in

736
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:53,239
a denigrating way.

737
00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 2: Uh.

738
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: Step On Trafimovich ends up embracing Christ in the end,

739
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,639
and it's a beautiful character. And anyways, he's being he's

740
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,360
his house gets raided. Uh, he pisses some people off

741
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,679
and his house gets raided and they take a bunch

742
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,079
of his papers and pamphlets or whatever is in his house.

743
00:42:10,599 --> 00:42:12,800
And somebody comes and speaking to him and it's like,

744
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,960
look are you a member of a secret society? And

745
00:42:16,039 --> 00:42:19,199
he goes, He's like, how do He's like, I don't know.

746
00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:23,079
He goes, he goes, I don't know these days, how

747
00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:25,719
could you even tell? Like so that this idea of

748
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,400
the secret society is all throughout the book, and then

749
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,760
when one character is asked about it, he he doesn't

750
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,840
even know if he was ever initiated a secret society.

751
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,440
He has to he has to really think about it.

752
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,320
So this kind of shows you how these things are

753
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,760
just to permeate the world that they that they live in,

754
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:42,800
these liberal.

755
00:42:42,519 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 4: Sums, and it's it's it's you love it, Jay, because

756
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,480
it's it's highly conspiratorial.

757
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 3: I mean it's really cool.

758
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:59,639
Speaker 4: Like you have the character of uh Virkravinsky. He the

759
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,760
leader of the revolutionary so uh he does stuff like.

760
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:07,159
Speaker 3: He's he's in.

761
00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 4: League with a bandit, a criminal that he uses uh

762
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,719
to basically carry out attacks and you know kind of

763
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,000
like t E R R O r uh like this

764
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,519
this criminal, Uh, his name is Fidya. He has he

765
00:43:25,599 --> 00:43:31,440
hires him to like burn down a church and desecrate icons. Uh,

766
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:36,119
stuff like that, which just kind of reminds one of

767
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:41,000
you know, the ties between uh, these types of revolutionary

768
00:43:41,039 --> 00:43:46,280
groups and intelligence services and organized crime. He also the

769
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,840
other the other crazy thing he does is that with

770
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,960
the ideologue Kato and Ktilf we got to discuss as well.

771
00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:57,000
Let's discuss just to make sure because this is these

772
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,800
are really cool things. But Katy uh stuffgan and then

773
00:44:01,079 --> 00:44:03,079
right now we're talking about Verkravinsky.

774
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,599
Speaker 3: But uh Verrkravinsky.

775
00:44:08,199 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 4: Basically uses the ideologue kil who has this theory about

776
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,760
basically killing oneself to kill God and to basically transfigure

777
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,920
through through death by killing.

778
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 3: One's own fear.

779
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 4: But he he uses as an asset and when the

780
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:37,599
time comes, Katy takes blame for a murder that the

781
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:42,880
cell had committed and that's when so that that kind

782
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,480
of kicks off once and once Ky does that and

783
00:44:45,519 --> 00:44:48,760
then commits suicide, that kicks off all the chaos and

784
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,920
that's kind of one of the signals to start the revolution.

785
00:44:53,039 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 3: And there's even in.

786
00:44:54,519 --> 00:44:57,679
Speaker 2: In so it's almost like a like a demonic version

787
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:58,559
of sacrifice.

788
00:44:59,159 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, he to kill himself. They make him agree to

789
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,159
kill himself, but they're like, you have to. He wants

790
00:45:05,159 --> 00:45:07,679
to kill himself as this you know, this act, this

791
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,079
ultimate act of nihilism, and that you become god like

792
00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:12,119
if you are able to kill you if you kill yourself,

793
00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:14,880
we all kill ourselves. We'll all become god and we'll transcend.

794
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,800
Uh well, we'll transcend everything and negate everything. Is this

795
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,800
is really weird but kind offiguration.

796
00:45:23,199 --> 00:45:26,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, because because because sacrifice is going to play a

797
00:45:26,039 --> 00:45:29,079
big role in uh crime punishments. Why I'm asking, but yeah,

798
00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:30,280
go ahead, yeah yeah.

799
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,519
Speaker 1: But he he wants to kill himself, right, and they

800
00:45:32,559 --> 00:45:34,079
all know he wants to kill himself, and he's always

801
00:45:34,079 --> 00:45:36,639
talking about it. He's always telling everybody how I'm trying

802
00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:39,679
to figure out why more people don't kill themselves. This

803
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,239
is his his academic work is trying. He's writing a

804
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,760
piece on why why are more people not killing him?

805
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 2: Well, and the existential let's take a big they'll they'll

806
00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:51,760
use that quite a bit because that becomes a big

807
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:52,159
thing for.

808
00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:56,599
Speaker 1: But it's kilter, like filter tells him, well, yeah, you

809
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,519
can kill yourself. That's your your free will. You have

810
00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:01,320
to do it, and we want you to do it.

811
00:46:01,559 --> 00:46:04,880
So it's like this demonic hijacking of his ultimate active

812
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,320
free will. But yeah, you're free to do this, you

813
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,920
can kill yourself. But when I say, and also I'm

814
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:11,920
gonna write, I'm going to help you write the suicide

815
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,559
letter so that you are exonerating all of our criminal

816
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:17,239
activity that we just engage us.

817
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 2: So I didn't know this. I mean, this sounds like Sartra,

818
00:46:21,559 --> 00:46:24,880
like just ripping this directly off, because I mean a

819
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,079
big part of some of the debates and discussions that

820
00:46:27,119 --> 00:46:29,039
Sartra has. I think he wrote one of these weird

821
00:46:29,079 --> 00:46:31,719
short stories. I think it's called The Wall, which is

822
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,719
a pretty crazy short story that he did, and the

823
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,280
whole whole point of that story is like, uh, maybe

824
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,760
you should just you know, kill yourself, because like isn't

825
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,079
that the real act of freedom? And it harkens to

826
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:44,320
what you guys are talking about here.

827
00:46:45,559 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and uh yeah, is a fascinating character and and

828
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,800
it's it's it's really uh that's that's like some of

829
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,719
the best dialogue in the book is his his you know,

830
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:03,280
kind of him delving into this notion of overcoming his

831
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:08,519
own fear of death and and the he's he's trying,

832
00:47:08,559 --> 00:47:11,239
and he also wants to kill the idea of god

833
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:12,280
that torments him.

834
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 2: Hmm, yeah, and.

835
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,679
Speaker 4: So and and and he can only do that by

836
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,400
killing himself and then becoming a god.

837
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 3: It's just it's really no.

838
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,599
Speaker 2: I mean, Sartre says that very thing. I mean, Sartre

839
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,239
was like super blasphemous, and so I just didn't realize

840
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:24,920
that like so much of what he was, I mean,

841
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,199
he sounds like a character out of a Dustievsky novel.

842
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:29,280
Is what's kind of blown away.

843
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 6: But yeah, last question, speaking of like sacrifice, you mentioned

844
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,800
like sacrifice and the demonic idea of sacrifice that's throughout

845
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,760
the novel as well, especially.

846
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: In in in the climax of the novel, during the

847
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,000
fire right and the you know, the the symbol of

848
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,880
the revolutionary fire. That's kind of Promethean fire, moving from yeah,

849
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,639
the the icon lamps, the icon stands, and into the

850
00:47:54,679 --> 00:47:57,480
houses and burning everything down to bring about this new order.

851
00:47:58,079 --> 00:48:01,360
Is is like the Cli Max of the novel in

852
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,360
many respects. But then there's another There is another scene

853
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:12,320
where Pilter, Pilter Virkofiinski is talking to Stuff Rogan and

854
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,400
he's manic, and he's trying to get Stuff Rogan to

855
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,599
kind of come back into this revolutionary movement. Stuff Rogan

856
00:48:19,679 --> 00:48:22,159
is a nihilist, but he's kind of like, man, you

857
00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:24,199
guys are He seems to me not.

858
00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 4: Is above everything. He is like a he's a superman.

859
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:29,159
He's an antichrist figure.

860
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he's too cool for the nihilists. He's like, man,

861
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:34,519
you guys are you guys are faking gay? Like I'm

862
00:48:34,519 --> 00:48:36,880
not getting involved in your in your revolutionary movement anywhere.

863
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,960
I don't care about this, not even beyond this right.

864
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,000
And he's just into self degradation really, and and Pelter's

865
00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:44,880
trying to get him involved in this thing. And he's

866
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,199
telling him, look, I got all these people. I give

867
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,679
him ranks, and I this is how I keep them together.

868
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,239
And I keep them bound together, and I control them

869
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,480
through there uh, through the passions and through uh and

870
00:48:55,519 --> 00:48:57,960
through flattery. He's telling them all the methods that he uses,

871
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,000
which is just this demonic play but book right and

872
00:49:01,039 --> 00:49:04,519
then stuff. Rogan's like, man, you're giving me all these

873
00:49:05,039 --> 00:49:07,599
all these ways that you bind them together. Yeah, that's

874
00:49:07,639 --> 00:49:09,639
fine and all, but you know how you really bind

875
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,119
people together in a circle? And they're talking about the

876
00:49:12,119 --> 00:49:15,119
group of five, right, you you you get four members

877
00:49:15,159 --> 00:49:18,280
of the circle to knock off the fifth member under

878
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,000
the pretext that he's an informant, and then you bind

879
00:49:21,039 --> 00:49:23,320
them all together with that blood and you own them

880
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,920
and they're your slaves. So he basically tells me, you know,

881
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,440
human sacrifice is the real way that you're going to

882
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,599
control these people. All the other stuff is just petties essentially.

883
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,639
Speaker 4: And that that happened, that that is carried out in

884
00:49:35,679 --> 00:49:38,719
the book. And it's like it the atmosphere is that

885
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,559
of like a of a uh anicult ritual.

886
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:44,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's dark.

887
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 2: I was about to ask if there's like a that

888
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:47,920
of that kind of a theme there, like a like

889
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,760
a I mean the circle of five, I mean this

890
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,960
sounds like a magic circle and the five points of

891
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,039
the pentagram. I mean it seems to I mean, I

892
00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:55,920
don't know, but it sounds like that's what I think

893
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:56,599
of when I hear that.

894
00:49:58,159 --> 00:50:01,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he doesn't. He doesn't get explicitly a they

895
00:50:01,159 --> 00:50:07,000
do even references Dostosky references yeah stuff. Rogan gets accused

896
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:11,679
by Chatau was another great character. He gets accused of

897
00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:13,840
what he says. He says, this is true that you

898
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,280
were involved in secret societies? Is in a cult like

899
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,159
secret society? Is it true that you were involved in,

900
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:26,360
you know, degrading uh children And basically says, what do

901
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,880
you say? I think he says, were you involved in

902
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,000
degrading children and and involved in secret society? That was?

903
00:50:33,079 --> 00:50:36,480
And also yeah, he said that would make the Marquis

904
00:50:36,519 --> 00:50:39,519
de Sade blush or something like that, right, So they

905
00:50:39,639 --> 00:50:41,239
reference kind of like the French.

906
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 2: Uh well secret that there's reality to that in the

907
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,760
sense that a lot of people don't realize that a

908
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:51,079
lot of Marxist socialist revolutionaries, uh were into straight up

909
00:50:51,079 --> 00:50:54,760
occultism and satanism. I mark, you had you did that translation?

910
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:56,320
I think, wasn't it where you talked about some of

911
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,480
the Bolshevik figures like gleb boke gleb boky i and

912
00:50:59,519 --> 00:51:01,440
they would new eyes, white chet parties, right.

913
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bodshenka. Yeah.

914
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:08,639
Speaker 4: And then you know figures like Lunochowsky high up in

915
00:51:08,679 --> 00:51:12,480
the Bolshevik hierarchy. Yeah, that's that's called the Bolsheviks Occult War.

916
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:14,360
You can find that on Espionage History.

917
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 2: Ar correct.

918
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 4: I just want to say we should talk about uh,

919
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,679
Stavrogan too, because Strogan and and Demons is this anti

920
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:29,920
Christ figure. And even his name it's it's Stayevsky. It's

921
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,360
so the origin of his name is Stavros in Greek

922
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,559
means cross, and then Raga in Russian are horns, so

923
00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:42,679
it's the horn cross. But stav Rogan is this uh,

924
00:51:43,119 --> 00:51:46,800
he's he's a he's a figure of enormous power and charm.

925
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:51,960
Like he's he's tall and handsome, he's brilliant. Ah, but

926
00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:55,159
he's he's so he's he's like he is.

927
00:51:55,159 --> 00:51:58,559
Speaker 3: The Nietzschean ubermensch, you know, kind of incarnate.

928
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:05,159
Speaker 4: And and he he basically practices the transvaluation of all values.

929
00:52:07,599 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 3: And at the end that at the very end of

930
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:11,480
the novel.

931
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 4: It it's kind of interesting how Stavrogen he atrophies because

932
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:22,400
it shows the uh kind of the creative impotence of evil,

933
00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:23,840
that evil itself.

934
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 3: Cannot create anything but only destroy.

935
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 4: But uh stan uh is there's there's a key thing

936
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,480
that's important about the book Demons, and I encourage everyone

937
00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:35,800
to uh find it.

938
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 3: Should be available online.

939
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,039
Speaker 4: There's a missing chapter from Demons, and it's it's called

940
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:49,320
I think it's in yes, and that's that's really important

941
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,519
to read at Tea huns Or Sturogen's confession, and I

942
00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:55,119
think it was translated by Virginia Wolf back in the day.

943
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 1: Like you should read it in sequence where it's supposed

944
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,320
to be in the book as well, because there's part

945
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,239
where it's supposed to be in the in the version

946
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,800
I had mark it has it in there. This is

947
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:10,159
the heavy translation, this one by Heavy.

948
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:11,159
Speaker 3: Yeah.

949
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, that's perfect. Yeah yeah, And I'm glad it's

950
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,320
in there. That that chapter at Tea Funds is really

951
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,960
important because that kind of goes into elite deviants and

952
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,239
uh and at the same time, so it kind of

953
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,840
examines that from a conspiratorial angle to some extent of

954
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:37,559
you know, basically, I'm gonna h s e x Hulie

955
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:46,840
hurting this prepubescent girl because he can because he he

956
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:51,400
wants to, just because that's, uh, that's what he wills.

957
00:53:51,679 --> 00:53:54,639
And he decided, you know, that's just that's that's that.

958
00:53:54,679 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 3: Was the force of his self will. He decided to

959
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:57,199
do that.

960
00:53:57,519 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 4: And that girl then later committed to suicide.

961
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:01,119
Speaker 3: She hung herself.

962
00:54:03,159 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 4: And he goes and he confesses about this to this monk.

963
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,400
He tells the monk, you know what he did, but

964
00:54:11,559 --> 00:54:14,679
he he can't. He doesn't have any repentance in him.

965
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,599
He doesn't he's not actually sorry for it. He just

966
00:54:17,639 --> 00:54:22,639
wants to say it, but he can't muster any spiritual

967
00:54:22,679 --> 00:54:24,519
strength to to actually repent.

968
00:54:24,639 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 2: Why does he why does he want to go confess

969
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:28,159
that to the elder? What's the purpose?

970
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:30,079
Speaker 3: It's not really clear.

971
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,760
Speaker 4: It may just be, you know, pride, maybe it's maybe

972
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:38,199
there's some there may be some pangs of conscience in him,

973
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,239
but he can't bring himself to repent.

974
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:42,559
Speaker 1: Yeah. I took it as that like he like he

975
00:54:42,639 --> 00:54:44,960
had this part of him that wanted to repent. But

976
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,079
then Tikhon calls him out and shows him how it

977
00:54:47,119 --> 00:54:49,800
was basically vainglory and pride and he and how he

978
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,079
even tells him like the because he has a letter.

979
00:54:52,199 --> 00:54:55,159
He didn't just he didn't speak it. He goes, He says,

980
00:54:55,159 --> 00:54:57,199
there's something you really want to get off your chest,

981
00:54:57,199 --> 00:55:00,199
and I feel it, and he basically throws the letter out,

982
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,320
says read it, don't say anything till you're done reading it,

983
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,519
then say everything. And Tikan tells him is like, this

984
00:55:05,559 --> 00:55:08,440
is this could be the most Christian act that you

985
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,519
could do, but only if it's coming from UH. It

986
00:55:12,559 --> 00:55:15,800
was like from a real Christian intention movie, essentially tells him,

987
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,960
and he he calls him out and says, this is vanglorious.

988
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,920
And even the way you wrote it, it's like you're

989
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,559
trying to dazzle the audience. It seems like you're this,

990
00:55:23,639 --> 00:55:25,239
you know, brilliant rhetorician.

991
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 2: And well that's a similar thing that's going to come

992
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:33,719
up here with the abuse of younger people. That will

993
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,679
be a big theme in UH Crime and Punishment too.

994
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:38,280
But anything you guys want to leave us with in

995
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,880
terms of demons before we talk a little bit about

996
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:42,000
crime and punishment.

997
00:55:43,039 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: Hey, well, I just want to ask Mark Uh, what

998
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,880
have you read a lot of his letters, because there

999
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:53,880
was a letter in the book in the in like

1000
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,840
the appendix of notes to the Underground Notes from the Underground,

1001
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,360
and it's a letter to Dostoevski's brother, and he's complaining

1002
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,119
about the censors and he basically calls them swine and says,

1003
00:56:03,119 --> 00:56:05,679
you know, they allowed me to, uh, you know, to

1004
00:56:05,679 --> 00:56:08,920
to feign blasphemy throughout this novel. And then the one

1005
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,960
part where I talk about Christ and redemption they wanted

1006
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,679
to remove that. Why do you think they removed the

1007
00:56:16,679 --> 00:56:19,000
at Teakons chapter? Because when I read that, it was like,

1008
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:23,440
there's nothing it's it's vile what the character did, but

1009
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,400
it's written, it's not it's not very It's not written

1010
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,800
in a disgusting way. It's a disgusting act that he

1011
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,679
describes having done, but it's done in a tasteful way.

1012
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,079
I mean, I feel like Schernishevsky's not cherish. What's that

1013
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,639
the book by what is to be done?

1014
00:56:39,039 --> 00:56:39,199
Speaker 3: You know?

1015
00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 1: I feel I feel like there's more pornographic stuff and

1016
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:45,320
like what is to be done? Then? And way more

1017
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,639
vile stuff being published. Do you think there was like

1018
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,039
the sensors were maybe because dost ask he said in

1019
00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:53,079
this letter, is like, what what are these sensors are?

1020
00:56:53,079 --> 00:56:55,760
They are they working against the government? Are they are

1021
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,800
these subversives, Like, why do you think they remove at

1022
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,360
teacons because it's a beautiful chapter.

1023
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's an amazing chapter. I mean that

1024
00:57:03,159 --> 00:57:07,719
that makes the story complete. I think I just think

1025
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,360
there were blockheads. I honestly, I think the censors were

1026
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,719
just dummies who were, you know, not not terribly cultured

1027
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,719
and and couldn't you know, and just kind of had

1028
00:57:16,719 --> 00:57:21,360
this shallow, kind of a shallow sense of moral scandal

1029
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,880
that you know at the time, you know, like the

1030
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:29,760
eighteen seventies, they weren't really they just saw it as

1031
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,760
as something scandalous, right that is Oh no, no, that's

1032
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,559
just that goes over the line, and you know.

1033
00:57:35,639 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 3: Just decided to excize that, you know.

1034
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 4: The the circumstances without really looking deeper into the you know,

1035
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,159
the full import of the story.

1036
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of my take.

1037
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 4: I've read I have read some of his letters, but

1038
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,639
more of his more of like his you know, political

1039
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:01,239
type stuff about uh, you know, culture and you know,

1040
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,760
geopolitics at the time. Yeah, like you know, kind of

1041
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:12,400
the slavophile type of thinking that he became a big proponent.

1042
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: Enough, let's talk about a little bit about crime and

1043
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:23,199
punishment because I think crime punishment for whatever reason is

1044
00:58:23,599 --> 00:58:26,960
you know, consider the most famous Russian novel I guess

1045
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,840
the most probably one of the most famous novels last century. Clearly. Uh.

1046
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,719
He really shows his genius there in terms of probing

1047
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,920
the depths of the human psychic psyche. And this is uh.

1048
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,800
I had one last question for you guys, because a

1049
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,159
big theme in crime and punishment is redemption. And I

1050
00:58:42,199 --> 00:58:49,679
was just curious if we find Christian redemption in Demons.

1051
00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:53,760
Yes we do, Yeah, I think, I think.

1052
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:59,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, yeah, absolutely. I mean as step On's Stepan Trofimovich,

1053
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:03,719
that character has you know, the eighteen hundreds boomer Jordan

1054
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,960
Peterson character has a great redemption arc and it's done

1055
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,000
in a way that's tasteful and not preachy and obnoxious,

1056
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:15,079
and actually it's the progression of his repentance. It's both

1057
00:59:15,159 --> 00:59:17,639
funny but then it's also there's like a dark humor

1058
00:59:17,679 --> 00:59:21,320
to it, but it's poignant. It's cutting, right, he gets

1059
00:59:21,559 --> 00:59:23,719
it gets kind of delusional, He's like dying. It gets

1060
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,840
delusional on this character starts. He meets this traveling gospel

1061
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,320
salesman woman who's you know, this Orthodox woman who's selling

1062
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:34,119
gospel books, and he tells her he starts to like

1063
00:59:34,199 --> 00:59:35,760
latch on her and try to make her his new

1064
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,400
like sugar Mama, basically because it's just this is his

1065
00:59:38,559 --> 00:59:40,960
He's running through his habits. So you get this thing

1066
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:45,480
of like the psychological traps and loops that people get

1067
00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:49,280
caught in, and the way it shows him going through

1068
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,519
this loop but then like popping out of it. It

1069
00:59:51,599 --> 00:59:54,880
was really beautiful. He meets this woman and she's selling gospels,

1070
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:55,920
and he's like, there must.

1071
00:59:55,719 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: Be something to this.

1072
00:59:56,519 --> 00:59:59,719
Speaker 1: I know I believe, I believe in God, but I'll

1073
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,960
teach the peasants about this book. I know there's truth,

1074
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,679
and I'll tell them what. I'll teach them the truth

1075
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,079
about this book, and I'll be very respectful and I'll

1076
01:00:09,159 --> 01:00:11,360
and I know there's mistakes in it, but I'll teach them.

1077
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:15,320
And then he goes through this phase of like dialogue.

1078
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,280
There he is this Protestant moment, right, his delusional Protestant moment,

1079
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,599
and then and then after that he repents even more

1080
01:00:21,639 --> 01:00:23,679
and he basically says, look, I've been a liar in

1081
01:00:23,679 --> 01:00:25,519
my whole life. Actually you know that. You know the

1082
01:00:25,559 --> 01:00:28,360
line in Scarface where he's like you know, even even

1083
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,239
when I I always tell the truth, even when I lie.

1084
01:00:32,599 --> 01:00:35,519
That's from this book, except it's the opposite. He says,

1085
01:00:35,559 --> 01:00:38,480
you know, even when I I've always lied, I've always

1086
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,199
been a liar. Even when I tell the truth, I've

1087
01:00:41,239 --> 01:00:46,400
been lying. You know, you know he he expresses this, uh,

1088
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:52,679
this kind of Yeah, he reflects in a really deep

1089
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,320
way on how lost he is. And then he ends up,

1090
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:58,840
you know, taking the sacraments. And then before he dies

1091
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:02,000
and anyways, he reconciles with characters around him. And then

1092
01:01:02,039 --> 01:01:08,280
there's other chateau, another character who I mean, his wife

1093
01:01:09,239 --> 01:01:11,440
who he was only married to for like three weeks

1094
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,639
and she took off. She comes back to him. He

1095
01:01:14,639 --> 01:01:16,599
hasn't seen her in three years. She comes back to

1096
01:01:16,679 --> 01:01:21,079
him pregnant, right, so his wife comes back pregnant. His

1097
01:01:21,119 --> 01:01:24,199
wife comes back pregnant with his wife's boyfriend's baby, and

1098
01:01:24,199 --> 01:01:28,440
and he's just he goes through this interesting character arc

1099
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:32,880
as well. So, yeah, there's a beautiful redemption character arc

1100
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,199
for several characters, at least two.

1101
01:01:37,559 --> 01:01:40,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that the more I think about it,

1102
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,000
the Crime and Punishment is fascinating because it combines the

1103
01:01:44,039 --> 01:01:54,079
element of crime and punishment redemption, Christianity, orthodoxy, how one

1104
01:01:54,159 --> 01:01:59,079
finds alleviation from guilt in the midst of gigantic, huge

1105
01:01:59,119 --> 01:02:03,440
philosophical zeitgeist, spirit of the time, problems and issues that

1106
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:08,519
are coming up, philosophies, revolutionary philosophy, communism, mutilitarianism, all these

1107
01:02:08,519 --> 01:02:12,239
things come up in Crime and Punishment as well. And

1108
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:15,239
we have did I say detective novel. It's like a

1109
01:02:15,239 --> 01:02:19,480
detective novel that's also a Christian redemptive thing. It's weird,

1110
01:02:19,519 --> 01:02:22,159
it's like all these different elements. I'm not trying to

1111
01:02:22,159 --> 01:02:24,360
reduce it to like a detective novel. But we we

1112
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,400
have a character that the detective Perferia Profurya I think

1113
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:34,280
is his name, and the story is basically this young

1114
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,719
guy who clearly is in some way, you know, Dostievsky

1115
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,519
in the period of his life when he was, as

1116
01:02:40,519 --> 01:02:45,639
we talked about earlier, the young idealistic, nihilistic revolutionary who

1117
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:52,760
although as Mark said, Dostievsky wasn't himself atheist, this figure,

1118
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,559
this young nihilistic character, is an atheist for a while.

1119
01:02:55,599 --> 01:02:59,360
He's this atheistic college guy I think it's a former

1120
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:03,599
law student, and he's kind of just living in poverty

1121
01:03:03,639 --> 01:03:06,719
and kind of just like being this lazy guy. And

1122
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,079
he hears he hears this. I think he comes from

1123
01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:12,119
a noble family for whatever reason, I don't remember. He's

1124
01:03:12,199 --> 01:03:15,519
kind of living in poverty. But he overhears this conversation

1125
01:03:15,719 --> 01:03:18,679
in a bar and he it's a discussion of great

1126
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:22,039
men and who are the great men of history? And

1127
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:26,159
Napoleon comes up, and so he decides, as he's he

1128
01:03:26,599 --> 01:03:30,119
from his atheistic perspective, it's like, well, if all I

1129
01:03:30,239 --> 01:03:33,679
have is this life, then the best thing that I

1130
01:03:33,719 --> 01:03:35,519
could hope for is to become a great man, to

1131
01:03:35,559 --> 01:03:38,960
become a man of history, a world historical figure. And

1132
01:03:39,079 --> 01:03:43,920
he really he rationalizes that those figures were murderers, right,

1133
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,639
I mean, Napoleon goes into war, there are millions of

1134
01:03:46,639 --> 01:03:51,119
people dead, and he comes to this realization that the

1135
01:03:51,519 --> 01:03:56,599
man of history is above morals. He's not bound by

1136
01:03:56,639 --> 01:04:00,960
the morality of the common vulgar herb. This is straight

1137
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,239
out of Nietzschet, right. This is the idea that the

1138
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:08,719
uber minsh beyond good and evil. He doesn't. He's not

1139
01:04:09,199 --> 01:04:11,280
subject to the rules that everyone else is subject to.

1140
01:04:12,119 --> 01:04:15,280
And Raskolnikov, this character of the main character, he kind

1141
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:18,719
of he kind of says, well, if that's what it takes,

1142
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:20,800
then I need to like own that, right. I need

1143
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:22,480
to own the idea of that's what it is to

1144
01:04:22,559 --> 01:04:25,440
be a great man and to act such that I

1145
01:04:25,519 --> 01:04:29,400
am above morals. And he hatches this plot that he says,

1146
01:04:29,679 --> 01:04:31,199
in order to do it, I need to find the

1147
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,320
worst people, right, and that way it would be more

1148
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,880
justified if I kill them. And so he hatches this

1149
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,760
plot to murder this woman who owns like a pawn shop,

1150
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:41,920
and he thinks that she's just totally lecherous and she,

1151
01:04:42,679 --> 01:04:44,920
you know, basically rips off the poor, and he's like, well,

1152
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:50,159
it's it's justified. I'm gonna kill her means the ends,

1153
01:04:50,239 --> 01:04:52,519
just by the means, and then I will, you know,

1154
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,000
begin my I'll have money to then work towards my

1155
01:04:56,119 --> 01:05:00,920
projects of becoming this great Napoleonic man. And of course

1156
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:05,239
that doesn't go very well because he the daughter of

1157
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,000
the pawnbroker woman comes home and then he has to

1158
01:05:08,079 --> 01:05:11,599
kill her. So he's this axe murder right. And at

1159
01:05:11,599 --> 01:05:14,079
the same time, I'm not not going to go into

1160
01:05:14,079 --> 01:05:16,039
all the other characters of his sister and stuff like that,

1161
01:05:16,239 --> 01:05:23,000
but basically the story revolves around his burdened, he's burden

1162
01:05:23,119 --> 01:05:26,679
of guilt for all this for most of the novel,

1163
01:05:27,039 --> 01:05:31,920
and he befriends his character who represents redemption to him, Sonya,

1164
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,800
who is also a prostitute that comes out of she

1165
01:05:35,079 --> 01:05:39,440
lives in poverty. And this is relevant to the story

1166
01:05:39,519 --> 01:05:44,639
of Docievsky in prison because one thing that like literary

1167
01:05:44,679 --> 01:05:48,639
critics and historians will bring up, is that when Docievsky

1168
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,519
was in prison, he was exposed to the extremes of society,

1169
01:05:53,199 --> 01:05:56,199
revolutionaries and intellectuals that had been put there, who were

1170
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,559
you know, very high iq and sophisticated, as well as

1171
01:05:58,599 --> 01:06:02,920
petty crooks. And one thing that he seemed to latch

1172
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:08,480
onto is the idea that the more simple, middle class, peasant,

1173
01:06:08,559 --> 01:06:13,079
petty crook people were able to find redemption through confession

1174
01:06:13,199 --> 01:06:15,800
and through Christianity to Orthodoxy because they had a way,

1175
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:18,199
they had a mechanism to deal with their guilt, and

1176
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:22,920
the atheistic rationalists intellectuals that were put into the prison

1177
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:27,639
camps could never grap they could never find a way

1178
01:06:27,679 --> 01:06:30,400
out of the prison of guilt. So the majority of

1179
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:35,000
this novel is about finding salvation from the prison of guilt,

1180
01:06:35,519 --> 01:06:38,559
and so Raskolnikov doesn't realize that when he commits this

1181
01:06:38,679 --> 01:06:41,920
heinous action, he's going to have to deal with it

1182
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:44,280
for the rest of the novel until he finds redemption.

1183
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:47,440
And and so Sonya ends up representing the figure that

1184
01:06:47,559 --> 01:06:50,679
always loves him and always comes to him throughout. She's

1185
01:06:50,719 --> 01:06:52,320
the one that's visiting when he ends up in the

1186
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,159
in the labor camp, and she ends up being his salvation.

1187
01:06:55,239 --> 01:06:57,280
He ends up going to bed with a Bible right

1188
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,760
this this is very significant for him because he this radical,

1189
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,000
you know, atheist, Nietzschean wanna be right uber Minch character

1190
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,280
becomes a murderer, and he ends up at the end

1191
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,519
of the novel when Sonia comes to visit him, that

1192
01:07:10,559 --> 01:07:12,840
that's the last connection that he has with love and redemption,

1193
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,719
and she ends up converting him to Orthodoxy in a

1194
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,719
significant serious way. There's a couple of other things I

1195
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:21,320
want to mention, though I'll hand it over to you guys,

1196
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,559
because I'm sure Mark will pull out a lot of

1197
01:07:23,639 --> 01:07:25,920
things that I don't recall or I'd looked over. But

1198
01:07:26,719 --> 01:07:31,280
remember also socialism, communism, the revolutionary ideas of the time

1199
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:34,159
are present throughout this novel as well. You have the

1200
01:07:35,159 --> 01:07:38,920
Western ideas that are being grappled with, and even within

1201
01:07:39,039 --> 01:07:42,639
the character of Raskolnikov himself, he's dealing with do I

1202
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:48,360
want to accept the conclusions of western rationalist, atheist man

1203
01:07:48,599 --> 01:07:52,280
and the nihilistic uber minch plan, or do I want

1204
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:56,360
to accept the older idea of that there is a god,

1205
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:58,800
there is a transcendent. I am bound by morals external

1206
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,360
to me. I have to live up to this moral code,

1207
01:08:01,719 --> 01:08:03,519
and if I don't, I'm going to be burdened with

1208
01:08:03,639 --> 01:08:06,400
gil until I confess my sin. Right, So basically that

1209
01:08:06,519 --> 01:08:08,559
that's what the essence of this novel, and so he

1210
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,880
keeps shifting back and forth at times he wants to

1211
01:08:13,159 --> 01:08:15,840
confess his crimes. And we can even see this is

1212
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,520
even relevant to serial killers and the stuff that we've

1213
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,439
been covering lately with you know, high profile crimes, elite crimes,

1214
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:26,119
elite deviants. Everybody knows about the fact that killers, oftentimes

1215
01:08:26,159 --> 01:08:27,479
they want to go back to the scene of the crime.

1216
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:29,359
They want to confess. They want to do these things

1217
01:08:29,399 --> 01:08:31,800
to signify and say, Okay, this was actually me. And

1218
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,239
there's something about the human psyche that you know they

1219
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:36,640
want to do that. But at the same time, right

1220
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:40,720
when he's confronted by the detective and he's about to confess,

1221
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,880
but then he's about to get off because he thinks

1222
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:46,079
that the detective has figured him out, but he hasn't,

1223
01:08:46,239 --> 01:08:48,479
and so he's about to try to get around it

1224
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:51,279
once again. And then Sonya comes in and she has

1225
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:54,279
a cross, and this like you know, triggers him, and

1226
01:08:54,359 --> 01:08:57,520
then he finally confesses, and it's at the symbol of

1227
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:00,640
the cross. If I recall that he finally confesses. He

1228
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:03,880
is sentenced to eight years, but it's this lenient, you know,

1229
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,520
penalty given what he had done. He'd murdered two people,

1230
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:10,840
but he's given this lenient penalty of eight years in

1231
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,239
the in the labor camp. And then you know, Sonya

1232
01:09:13,319 --> 01:09:15,640
consistently visits him in the labor camp, and that's the

1233
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,560
final She says redemption. She's the one that shows him love.

1234
01:09:19,279 --> 01:09:21,520
But particularly what I was thinking of, I think in

1235
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,119
terms of the demonic element, was that there's there's various

1236
01:09:24,119 --> 01:09:27,399
phases when after ron Skolnikov has committed these haus actions

1237
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:30,079
that he kind of he kind of goes into these deliriums,

1238
01:09:30,159 --> 01:09:32,600
like he has these phases where like he he sleeps

1239
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:33,960
for two or three days and he doesn't know if

1240
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,960
he's awake or asleep, and he's in this delirium state,

1241
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,159
and there's even a discussion of seeing ghosts right where

1242
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:42,520
it's like, that's probably I think where I was getting

1243
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:46,520
the idea of the demonic and and uh, Mark, you

1244
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,359
can correct me if if I'm misremembering that. But basically

1245
01:09:49,399 --> 01:09:53,239
it's just that he he he is tortured by his guilt,

1246
01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:57,920
and he represents Western man and Western Man's atheism and nihilism,

1247
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:01,279
and that westernman will never find emption until he admits

1248
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,119
that he's wrong and that he's in a way perpetuated

1249
01:10:04,199 --> 01:10:08,640
and and participated in these crimes, these ideological crimes, which

1250
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,239
are spiritual crimes, which will burden him until he finally

1251
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:14,399
goes to confessions so to speak.

1252
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was that was an awesome summary. I don't

1253
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:23,119
have much to add that. You're right, the like his

1254
01:10:23,319 --> 01:10:32,680
fever in his his his visions are the physical manifestation basically,

1255
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:38,159
or the physiological psychological manifestation of his guilt on the

1256
01:10:38,239 --> 01:10:44,079
spiritual plane. So that you know, it's that all those

1257
01:10:44,159 --> 01:10:45,880
factors spiritual.

1258
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:51,199
Speaker 2: I mean, is that is this him? When he's is

1259
01:10:51,279 --> 01:10:53,800
this him? Dostoevsky in the labor camp.

1260
01:10:56,359 --> 01:10:58,760
Speaker 3: There's there's an element of that. Yeah, I think I

1261
01:10:58,840 --> 01:10:59,920
think I think there is an element.

1262
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,159
Speaker 2: I mean, he wasn't an atheist and he wasn't a murderer,

1263
01:11:02,239 --> 01:11:06,039
but but yeah, but but he did nonetheless around those

1264
01:11:06,079 --> 01:11:08,680
type of Yeah, it's a composite probably right.

1265
01:11:09,039 --> 01:11:11,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well there's this there's this concept in Dostoevsky as well.

1266
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,000
It's like there is no private sin, right, Like in

1267
01:11:14,399 --> 01:11:19,079
the Tekon's chapter Tekon, Tekon says something, you know, forgive me,

1268
01:11:19,159 --> 01:11:21,439
and he's like for what He's just like for all things,

1269
01:11:22,399 --> 01:11:25,119
you know, for all my sins visit known and unknown,

1270
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:28,000
which is like in the Orthodox prayers, and and Tekon

1271
01:11:28,079 --> 01:11:30,359
even says like there is no there's no private sin,

1272
01:11:30,399 --> 01:11:31,760
all our sins or everyone's sins.

1273
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's that's kind of the uh that that

1274
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:41,000
goes with the notion of uh fallen man and and

1275
01:11:41,119 --> 01:11:45,800
the interconnectedness of uh, you know, one human being to another.

1276
01:11:46,399 --> 01:11:49,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's there's a it's.

1277
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,239
Speaker 4: It's an entire fabric of being that that you know,

1278
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:55,920
that gets violated by sin.

1279
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,680
Speaker 2: And so can you remind me who who's the guy

1280
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:03,520
who is the one that causes the abuse to young people.

1281
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:05,479
I'm trying to remember what.

1282
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:10,279
Speaker 3: Oh uh in Crime and Punishment, it's a guy named Yeah.

1283
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:13,399
Speaker 2: And what was the what was the what was the

1284
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:15,800
purpose of that characters function in the novel? Okay, I

1285
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:17,920
just don't recall, do you.

1286
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:20,399
Speaker 4: Remember, Yeah, I'd have to go back to it's been

1287
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:22,399
it's been a while since I read Crime and Punishment,

1288
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:26,039
But uh, from what I remember, he was he was

1289
01:12:26,119 --> 01:12:29,760
just kind of, you know, this deviant, predatory type who

1290
01:12:32,319 --> 01:12:37,760
was looking to I think he was he had something

1291
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:40,039
for's sister.

1292
01:12:40,239 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 2: Okay, that's right, Yeah.

1293
01:12:42,279 --> 01:12:45,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, Dadia from what I remember.

1294
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so he's involved just because he's trying to

1295
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,760
wasn't Raskolnikov from a wealthy family, but for whatever reason,

1296
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:54,119
they kind of ended up broke and then.

1297
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 3: He yeah, something something. I think it had to do

1298
01:12:57,079 --> 01:12:58,560
with his It may have had to do with his

1299
01:12:58,680 --> 01:12:59,279
father's death.

1300
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:02,159
Speaker 4: From when I but he was, Yeah, he was living

1301
01:13:02,199 --> 01:13:04,159
in this just like hole in the wall, like this

1302
01:13:04,359 --> 01:13:09,159
miserable little apartment or something, and and just you know,

1303
01:13:10,039 --> 01:13:13,960
his his mind got spinning with you know, notions of

1304
01:13:14,039 --> 01:13:16,439
his own greatness and and you know, the notion of

1305
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:20,159
the the superman. And I mean, what or what it

1306
01:13:20,319 --> 01:13:23,560
wasn't It wasn't phrase that way in the novel. But

1307
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:25,680
you know, basically this man.

1308
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:28,319
Speaker 2: God, yeah exactly, you know, would yeah.

1309
01:13:28,119 --> 01:13:32,399
Speaker 4: Would carry over into of course, carry over into demons

1310
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:36,039
and also into brothers kind of muzza in a way.

1311
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:40,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so he mentions master slave morality and that

1312
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:44,439
like the great man is above you know, uh uh

1313
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:49,439
slave morality. And and because the detective uh prophey, he

1314
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:53,760
had found one of the papers the essays that and

1315
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:56,560
that's what kind of got him onto got him suspicious,

1316
01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:58,680
was that he had found one of Raskolnikov's essays that

1317
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:00,880
he wrote about how the eight man is not bound

1318
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:03,119
by morals and he can kill with impunity and he

1319
01:14:03,199 --> 01:14:05,079
gets away with it, right, you know.

1320
01:14:05,119 --> 01:14:08,279
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I mean, this is was it twenty years

1321
01:14:08,399 --> 01:14:12,600
or something? That was almost twenty years before Nietzsche was

1322
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:14,800
actually writing about these three picks, right, I mean this

1323
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:17,760
is eighteen sixty six, and Crime and Punishment Demons was

1324
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:23,680
eighteen seventy two. It's you know, Dostoyevsky expounded on like

1325
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:27,279
the uber bench concept better than and before Nietzsche.

1326
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:28,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1327
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:33,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, what's what's what's awesome about that is Thatstayevsky and

1328
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:34,279
Nietzscha were.

1329
01:14:34,399 --> 01:14:37,520
Speaker 3: I mean, Nietzsa knew of Dostoyevsky. I don't Thinktoevsky knew

1330
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:42,720
of Nietscha. All right, I would have to double Checkstovsky.

1331
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:45,279
Speaker 1: Died in an Aid eighteen eighty eighteen. Yeah, yeah, and

1332
01:14:45,359 --> 01:14:48,159
then and I mean thus bolke Zara Thrister was eighteen

1333
01:14:48,199 --> 01:14:48,720
eighty three.

1334
01:14:49,359 --> 01:14:54,359
Speaker 4: Yeah right, yeah, and so yeah, Nietzscha knew about Dostayevsky.

1335
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:58,560
Speaker 3: I think you might have read Crime and Punishment.

1336
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:03,039
Speaker 1: I'm not, I said, the only psychologists who could ever

1337
01:15:03,119 --> 01:15:03,960
teach him anything.

1338
01:15:04,119 --> 01:15:07,600
Speaker 4: That's yeah, there's a good yeah, yeah, exactly, he was.

1339
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:08,840
He was an amazing psychologist.

1340
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:12,279
Speaker 3: There's a good book. Let me. Let's see.

1341
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:16,199
Speaker 4: It was called The Drama of Atheist Humanism, which is

1342
01:15:16,239 --> 01:15:21,840
in English and it's by a French Jesuit. It's it's actually,

1343
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:24,239
it's actually a very good book that The Drama of

1344
01:15:24,319 --> 01:15:26,479
Atheist Humanism.

1345
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:29,159
Speaker 3: Henry Dale Lubach.

1346
01:15:29,359 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 2: I think's yeah, he's a Catholic.

1347
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:36,000
Speaker 4: Yeah that doesn't you know, like some of his other

1348
01:15:36,159 --> 01:15:39,239
views whatever. But but it was, it's very he did

1349
01:15:39,279 --> 01:15:41,479
a great job on on that work, and and it's

1350
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:47,880
very it's very in depth. But yeah, the difference between

1351
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:51,920
Dostaevsky and Nietzsche was that Nietzsche, you know, the the

1352
01:15:52,399 --> 01:15:55,279
abyss opened up before him, and he, you know, he

1353
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:57,319
basically dove in.

1354
01:15:58,199 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 2: Uh.

1355
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:04,199
Speaker 4: The Sayevsky went through the abyss, but he ultimately came

1356
01:16:04,279 --> 01:16:07,720
back up. He he reached towards Heaven, He reached towards God,

1357
01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:14,439
uh and and he saw that Christ was salvation, you know,

1358
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:18,319
uh not, and that all the and he put in

1359
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:24,680
his novels he basically, ah, he ran the theory of

1360
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:26,039
the superman and.

1361
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:30,680
Speaker 3: Kind of charted out as logical consequences.

1362
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:33,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's exactly what crime and punishment is. Yeah,

1363
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:37,800
there's multiple conversations about that master morality, slave morality that

1364
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:40,720
you know, beyond good and evil. So I think there's

1365
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:42,840
no doubt about that. That that that had to condition

1366
01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:52,000
a lot of Nietzsche thought that I can mark. There's

1367
01:16:52,039 --> 01:16:54,640
also The Idiot Should Should We? Is that a novel

1368
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:56,159
that you familiar with?

1369
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:58,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, uh, kind of.

1370
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:01,640
Speaker 4: It's been a while since The Ith Gosh, I can't

1371
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:07,199
he there's some interesting stuff in there, some slavophilic and

1372
01:17:07,359 --> 01:17:11,079
then some what the thing that about the Idiot that

1373
01:17:11,199 --> 01:17:12,760
really sticks out to me is just how.

1374
01:17:14,239 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 3: It very much resonates with contemporary events.

1375
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:25,600
Speaker 4: But how Prince Mushkin he calls Europe a cemetery and

1376
01:17:26,199 --> 01:17:31,000
that Europe is like a cemetery and all the gravestones

1377
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:36,000
meaning European civilization, and those gravestones are dear to Russians,

1378
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:41,560
but it's still it's dead, and and the great culture

1379
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:43,640
and civilization that had been is over.

1380
01:17:45,239 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 3: And to me, that that really.

1381
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:53,880
Speaker 4: That that stuck out most of all and in the idiot,

1382
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:56,399
but yeah, it's it's been a while since since that too,

1383
01:17:56,439 --> 01:18:01,199
So that but that that that line from instance Mushkin

1384
01:18:01,319 --> 01:18:06,239
about the you know, the the European cemetery and how

1385
01:18:07,039 --> 01:18:11,800
European civilization is basically dead, and and that that Russian

1386
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:18,000
civilization would you know, its go its way and and

1387
01:18:18,119 --> 01:18:21,399
in Dostoyevsky's conception that would be under the banner of Christ.

1388
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:25,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing. Now, last I think we should touch

1389
01:18:25,279 --> 01:18:28,239
on Grand Inquisitor because, uh, you know, it's probably the

1390
01:18:28,319 --> 01:18:33,359
most famous sort of cut out of the novel chapter

1391
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:37,680
where you have the the papal inquisitor who is doing

1392
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:43,439
his uh inquisiting of Christ himself. And what's amazing about

1393
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:46,000
that section is that This chapter is prophetic because it's

1394
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:49,479
almost like it's charted the course of the Romancalloicy Church,

1395
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:51,640
especially with the rise of the papacy and the second

1396
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:55,199
millennium of Christianity, and you basically have the papacy telling

1397
01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:59,359
Christ more or less that we don't need you anymore.

1398
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:04,159
We've basically established this kind of earthly kingdom, the Roman

1399
01:19:04,199 --> 01:19:09,600
Catholic Church. It will provide mankind with the three temptations

1400
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:14,159
of Christ that although Christ might have been a figure

1401
01:19:14,159 --> 01:19:18,439
who opposed those temptations, we will give man the bread

1402
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:20,960
that he desires. We will give man the things that

1403
01:19:21,039 --> 01:19:25,000
he desires in this life. And so whatever Christianity was

1404
01:19:25,119 --> 01:19:28,680
or represented is not necessary. And that's very closely connected

1405
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:32,720
to the revolutionary promise in Ethos, because revolutionaries, especially the

1406
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:38,199
communist Marxists ethos it comes out of even historically scholars

1407
01:19:38,239 --> 01:19:41,920
will admit this, you'll come a feor you know, these

1408
01:19:42,279 --> 01:19:47,800
the late medieval movements that were you know, communal. Thomas

1409
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:53,079
Munser was a late medieval communist sectarian. I mean, most

1410
01:19:53,279 --> 01:19:58,079
historians will chart the rise of Illuminism, Marxism and so

1411
01:19:58,239 --> 01:20:05,079
forth from those medieval predecessors and those represented rejections of Orthodoxy,

1412
01:20:05,159 --> 01:20:08,439
and so what you get is communism seems to be

1413
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:13,960
the result of deviations of orthodox Christianity, because what happens

1414
01:20:14,039 --> 01:20:17,199
is that people want to they lose the supernatural and

1415
01:20:17,279 --> 01:20:20,880
then they want to instantiate into the temporal whatever the

1416
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:24,159
ideals of Christianity were. They make it a purely historical thing,

1417
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:27,039
and it becomes a political movement because when you leave

1418
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:31,079
the theology out, when you leave the redemptive aspect of

1419
01:20:31,119 --> 01:20:34,760
the theology, it ends up being this here and now

1420
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:37,560
political movement. And that's what leads to so much of

1421
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:42,000
the disaster. And so we can see both the critique

1422
01:20:42,039 --> 01:20:45,439
I think of the communist ethos in The Grand Inquisitor

1423
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:48,800
as well as a prophetic critique of in my view,

1424
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:53,319
the decline of the papacy, and boy is the Grand

1425
01:20:53,359 --> 01:20:57,760
Inquisitor chapter prophetic nowadays post Vatican Two, especially with someone

1426
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:01,239
like Francis. I mean, it's like it's almost like prophecy

1427
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:05,199
in my view Mark.

1428
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:07,800
Speaker 1: But it does tie in with so with the chapter

1429
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:10,560
in Demons, where I think it's like Pyotr bustles about

1430
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:12,079
I think it was the title of the chapter, and

1431
01:21:12,199 --> 01:21:16,800
he's Pyotr. The the revolutionary is is in this manic,

1432
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:20,199
demonic rage, and he's just telling some stuff Rogan all

1433
01:21:20,279 --> 01:21:22,960
about what's really going on and what he's really doing

1434
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:24,760
with all these people he's manipulating, and he says, yeah,

1435
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:26,199
we'll bring in the Pope. All we got to do

1436
01:21:26,359 --> 01:21:29,159
is get the Pope to agree with the internationalal that

1437
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:32,359
that that they'll rule together, and he'll do it. He'll

1438
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:35,279
definitely do it. The old retard basically basically says like

1439
01:21:35,359 --> 01:21:38,159
he'll this is what's going to happen. And I guess

1440
01:21:38,319 --> 01:21:43,640
you know, in the Grand Inquisitor, it's like a more expanded.

1441
01:21:43,119 --> 01:21:47,079
Speaker 2: It's like Pope is Antichrist basically, yeah, and granted and

1442
01:21:47,159 --> 01:21:48,000
Grand Inquisitor.

1443
01:21:48,199 --> 01:21:51,319
Speaker 4: Uh, that's that's you want us. Uh, you know, his

1444
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:55,039
his vision, his grand vision, you know that gets laid

1445
01:21:55,079 --> 01:21:59,640
out that Yeah, that really is. It's a development from

1446
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:05,119
uh from demons, from you know, Virkovinski, you know, ranting

1447
01:22:05,159 --> 01:22:09,640
about this alliance between the revolutionaries and the Vatican. Uh

1448
01:22:10,239 --> 01:22:16,119
and yeah, in in Grand Inquisitor, it's, uh, the the Inquisitors,

1449
01:22:16,239 --> 01:22:21,199
like you know, kind of runs this earthly kingdom. Uh,

1450
01:22:21,359 --> 01:22:27,680
this counterfeit religion is used to impose authority upon the people,

1451
01:22:28,319 --> 01:22:32,039
and uh it you know, it's kind of they preach,

1452
01:22:32,279 --> 01:22:36,399
they preach uh in this in this vision of false Christ.

1453
01:22:37,159 --> 01:22:39,960
And you know, men go to their graves, you know,

1454
01:22:40,079 --> 01:22:44,520
with this name, this name on their lips, but it

1455
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:49,439
means nothing. And and it's all because in the Grand

1456
01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:54,920
Inquisitors in his in his plan, he wants to eliminate

1457
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:57,479
suffering from the earth. But in order to do that,

1458
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:00,119
he has to kill off spiritual freedom. He has to

1459
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:05,680
you know, he has to basically strangle uh internal freedom

1460
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:08,319
within each uh person.

1461
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:13,119
Speaker 2: So would that imply that free will has to be

1462
01:23:13,199 --> 01:23:15,800
gotten rid of for utopia to come? But this is

1463
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:17,720
like merchant Russell right, I mean.

1464
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:22,159
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, absolutely, for equality, you must kill liberty, sacrifice

1465
01:23:22,239 --> 01:23:25,960
liberty so you can get equality, or sacrifice quality so

1466
01:23:26,079 --> 01:23:30,720
you get liberty. It's like the French revolutionary ideals being

1467
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:33,520
diametrically opposed to each other, kind of embodied there.

1468
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, total total slavery in order to get total freedom.

1469
01:23:37,159 --> 01:23:44,800
Speaker 4: You know, that's that's the the dialectic. And yeah, with

1470
01:23:45,079 --> 01:23:49,399
with Grand Inquisitor, there's there's an it really does. It

1471
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:53,199
reaches again into this uh you know kind of religion

1472
01:23:53,239 --> 01:23:59,079
of Antichrist uh and in a system of control over

1473
01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:04,880
men's souls where they have forfeited their spiritual freedom for

1474
01:24:05,159 --> 01:24:09,560
earthly happiness, right, for foreign you know, a perfect earthly.

1475
01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 3: Kingdom, right, you know where Christ said my kingdom is

1476
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:13,359
not of this world.

1477
01:24:14,239 --> 01:24:17,479
Speaker 2: Isn't there a discussion in that section too, where it's like, well,

1478
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:21,119
you know in the Gospels there when I think it's

1479
01:24:21,199 --> 01:24:23,279
John six, when you have the discussion of the Manna

1480
01:24:23,359 --> 01:24:27,119
from heaven and it says something like the multitudes followed him,

1481
01:24:27,159 --> 01:24:29,359
but it's implied that they were just there to get

1482
01:24:29,399 --> 01:24:32,600
a free meal. And isn't there something like that reference

1483
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:35,279
in the Grand Inquizor's like, I mean, all we have

1484
01:24:35,319 --> 01:24:37,960
to do is just feed them basically, right, So yeah.

1485
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah he specifically you know it says like

1486
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:42,920
you know, bread and circus.

1487
01:24:43,319 --> 01:24:45,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right, and that we will we.

1488
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:50,159
Speaker 4: Will basically will impress them with mystery and authority, you know,

1489
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:57,000
like that, uh, we'll have this charisma, you know.

1490
01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:02,640
Speaker 2: And is that is that you said it's the vision

1491
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:06,239
of a certain character. Is he? Is he a revolutionary

1492
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:07,319
sort of socialist guy?

1493
01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 3: Uh, he's an intellectual.

1494
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:14,239
Speaker 4: He's an intellectual and uh, he's dealing with the problem

1495
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:18,800
of theodicy, you know, the problem of suffering, and how

1496
01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:22,640
could God allow, you know, a little girl to be hurt,

1497
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:24,760
you know, by her parents or something like that.

1498
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:26,520
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, just awful.

1499
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:28,920
Speaker 4: Just think of the most awful thing, you know, and

1500
01:25:29,079 --> 01:25:31,960
it's usually involving a child, you know, and how could

1501
01:25:32,119 --> 01:25:33,039
how could God allow that?

1502
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:33,640
Speaker 3: Uh?

1503
01:25:34,239 --> 01:25:37,680
Speaker 4: And so in response, you know, he he composes the

1504
01:25:38,159 --> 01:25:41,720
the poem of the Grand Inquisitor, and it's you know,

1505
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:45,239
it's kind of a feverish vision vision. But also just

1506
01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:52,000
going back that Yvonne Karamazov also has these bouts of

1507
01:25:52,159 --> 01:25:57,680
fever and uh he he sees the devil appears before

1508
01:25:57,760 --> 01:26:02,159
him too, and it's in again. Dostoyevsky is very good

1509
01:26:02,199 --> 01:26:07,760
and being ambiguous as to whether or not it's actually

1510
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,359
just you know, purely a product of you know, his

1511
01:26:11,439 --> 01:26:16,640
psyche or is this something from the spiritual realm uh

1512
01:26:17,159 --> 01:26:18,800
And and so he kind of leaves it to you

1513
01:26:19,119 --> 01:26:23,039
to decide. But you know, for those who uh, you know,

1514
01:26:23,239 --> 01:26:27,199
try to you know, have some spiritual discernment, I mean

1515
01:26:27,279 --> 01:26:28,760
it fits.

1516
01:26:29,319 --> 01:26:31,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it all comes to mind is you're

1517
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:34,479
talking about the bread and circuses idea, right, like you know,

1518
01:26:35,119 --> 01:26:40,880
promising people the utopia just kinda harken him back to

1519
01:26:41,039 --> 01:26:44,079
the prophetic nature of Dostoevsky's books and his writing. I mean,

1520
01:26:44,119 --> 01:26:47,159
he's he's he's one of the most brilliant philosophers ever.

1521
01:26:47,399 --> 01:26:49,840
You know, he really is, and is the way that

1522
01:26:50,079 --> 01:26:53,319
he portrays his philosophy as it's allegorical, which makes it

1523
01:26:53,439 --> 01:26:54,600
even more piercing.

1524
01:26:54,279 --> 01:26:54,720
Speaker 2: To the soul.

1525
01:26:55,079 --> 01:26:58,880
Speaker 1: And but he he's prophetic, man, I mean he this idea,

1526
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:00,199
you know, the bread and circus is what is it

1527
01:27:00,239 --> 01:27:03,479
that the Bolsheviks promised? They promised bread and land. And

1528
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:07,800
how did they get people to uh to desire this, Well,

1529
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:09,920
they helped to starve them first of all, I mean

1530
01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:14,479
they created uh, bread shortages in Petrograd leading up to

1531
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:18,359
the February Revolution. The revolutionary not not not just the Bolsheviks,

1532
01:27:18,399 --> 01:27:25,159
but the revolutionaries created this perceived food shortage and acceleration. Yeah,

1533
01:27:25,319 --> 01:27:28,359
bread and land. So the the idea of the accelerationists.

1534
01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:31,119
This is in demons as well, right with your Pyotur

1535
01:27:31,159 --> 01:27:33,640
and them saying, well, we're gonna we're gonna accelerate degeneracy,

1536
01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:36,039
We're going to break down the family, We're gonna we're

1537
01:27:36,039 --> 01:27:38,279
gonna bring about all sorts of I forget what he

1538
01:27:38,399 --> 01:27:41,640
calls it. He uses this word it was it wasn't degenerousy,

1539
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:45,920
werena bring about all sorts of chaos, debauchery, that's the

1540
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:50,920
word debauchery. And and so that's he prophesied exactly what

1541
01:27:51,119 --> 01:27:53,279
was going to happen in the Bolshevik Revolution. But it's

1542
01:27:53,319 --> 01:27:55,399
not like he was just looking into the future. He

1543
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:59,600
had also clearly had been connected to this lineage of

1544
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:03,119
revolution utionaries that were learning from the methods of the

1545
01:28:03,159 --> 01:28:07,039
French Revolution, because you know, there's this kind of reflective

1546
01:28:08,119 --> 01:28:10,600
thing that happened in the Bolshevik Revolution that was just

1547
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:13,159
a mirror of what happened in the French Revolution. And

1548
01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:16,279
look what's happening now right Look at the city's being

1549
01:28:16,319 --> 01:28:19,479
burned down all around the in the west, all sorts

1550
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:23,479
of chaos and debauchery, the defilement of children, uh, the

1551
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:28,319
the the open blasphemy, the destruction of holy places. I mean,

1552
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:32,359
this is this is everywhere right now. And you know,

1553
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:35,720
in Dostoevsky's book, in all of his books and all

1554
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:38,079
of his novels, he's he's really showing us the mo

1555
01:28:38,359 --> 01:28:41,239
of the revolutionaries and ultimately the mo of the the

1556
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:45,079
other side of spiritual warfare of the demonic, right, Yeah,

1557
01:28:45,199 --> 01:28:47,520
he doesn't just show that, he shows the redemption as well,

1558
01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:47,880
which is.

1559
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:54,960
Speaker 2: Great, excellent. Yeah, yeah, Marc. Is there any other books

1560
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:57,760
that you would because I think that, uh, that's kind

1561
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,880
of the extent that Tristan and I had exposure to

1562
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:04,159
Tod and I think you've had more. So is there

1563
01:29:04,199 --> 01:29:06,479
any other areas that you think we should look into

1564
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:07,960
other than the text that we've covered tonight.

1565
01:29:09,359 --> 01:29:12,920
Speaker 3: Let's see, well, you know, for for good English.

1566
01:29:13,119 --> 01:29:17,600
Speaker 4: My favorite English language books on Dosaevsky are like I

1567
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:21,000
mentioned before, Nicholas vert if b E R d y

1568
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:24,640
uh A e v Uh he's got a he's got

1569
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:28,680
a great book Onstaevsky. And then uh there's also he's

1570
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:32,560
been translated into English too. There's a he's it's like,

1571
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:37,479
you know, kind of uh philosophy in Dostoyevsky.

1572
01:29:37,960 --> 01:29:38,079
Speaker 1: Uh.

1573
01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:45,520
Speaker 4: This a writer named Konstantine so Constantine Matchulski ms C

1574
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:50,560
h U L s k Y and his work should

1575
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:52,199
be available in English and it's.

1576
01:29:52,039 --> 01:29:52,960
Speaker 3: An amazing Uh.

1577
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:56,439
Speaker 4: He's got an amazing book, uh, like you know that

1578
01:29:56,640 --> 01:30:03,279
covers each of Dostoyevsky's major works and all the uh

1579
01:30:04,239 --> 01:30:12,399
philosophical metaphysical religious dimensions of of of you know, Dostoyevsky's worldview,

1580
01:30:13,279 --> 01:30:15,800
and you know, even the characters and the books and

1581
01:30:15,880 --> 01:30:17,760
what they what they signify, what they represent.

1582
01:30:18,039 --> 01:30:25,880
Speaker 3: It's it's it's awesome. So yeah, I recommend that, Oh.

1583
01:30:26,199 --> 01:30:28,479
Speaker 2: We'll save it for maybe a future discussion or podcast.

1584
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:33,279
That you had translated a two part essay on Dustiskin platonism. Uh.

1585
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:35,680
I put that into the chat for everybody there. There's

1586
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:37,399
the part one. You can find the part too there

1587
01:30:37,439 --> 01:30:39,119
as well. But that might be good for a future

1588
01:30:39,159 --> 01:30:41,960
discussion as well, because I read that back when you

1589
01:30:42,079 --> 01:30:44,520
posted it, but I'd have to go back and sort

1590
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:45,600
of refresh myself on that.

1591
01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:49,720
Speaker 4: But yeah, and that comes from a book by a

1592
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:51,800
guy named but Chinian, this Russian.

1593
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 3: He's a Russian scholar.

1594
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:57,760
Speaker 4: Uh. And he's he's excellent as well, and I'll have

1595
01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:02,199
to translate some more of his stuff. Like he's he

1596
01:31:02,279 --> 01:31:05,479
wrote this book called Dostoyevsky The Metaphysics of Crime.

1597
01:31:06,319 --> 01:31:10,359
Speaker 3: And yeah, there's there's a lot in there. It's it's like,

1598
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:12,439
you know, it's it's a it looks.

1599
01:31:12,239 --> 01:31:14,119
Speaker 4: Like a small book, but it's like four hundred pages

1600
01:31:14,159 --> 01:31:18,720
and it's it's it's dense and and uh very well written.

1601
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:20,399
Speaker 3: And you know, it has lots of insights.

1602
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:23,079
Speaker 2: Could you could you get around could you give us

1603
01:31:23,119 --> 01:31:24,800
a little because I know we see that in Crime

1604
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:29,319
and Punishment and probably in Demons as well. But what's

1605
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:31,720
what's his take on crime and what what's what's the

1606
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:34,680
criminal psychology element here? Which is fascinating that's a whole

1607
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:35,399
other domain.

1608
01:31:36,279 --> 01:31:38,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well that that's the thing is that in

1609
01:31:38,560 --> 01:31:42,760
Dostoyevsky's work, he's not only like like Tristan said, he's

1610
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:47,880
a philosopher, he's a metaphysician through allegory. He's also a

1611
01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:54,880
an excellent uh psychologist, and and understands the criminal mind.

1612
01:31:54,760 --> 01:31:56,159
Speaker 3: Brilliantly in a lot of ways.

1613
01:31:56,359 --> 01:31:58,640
Speaker 4: I mean, he you know, he did he did some time,

1614
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:02,319
you know, and he was he uh so he he

1615
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:06,359
he met plenty of hardened criminals and criminals of different types,

1616
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:09,760
you know, including you know, not not just bandits, but

1617
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:14,199
you know, uh you know, ideological you know, political revolutionary types.

1618
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:18,399
So uh he you know, he, like Viegravinsky, is like

1619
01:32:18,479 --> 01:32:23,479
a you know, just classic sociopath. You know, he's he's

1620
01:32:23,640 --> 01:32:30,399
very glib, superficially charming, you know, uses people as objects

1621
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:33,479
and his schemes. Uh, you know there there are other

1622
01:32:34,279 --> 01:32:39,840
like in Brothers Cut a Mazuf, there's a classic profiling

1623
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:40,920
of serial killer.

1624
01:32:42,319 --> 01:32:42,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1625
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:48,640
Speaker 4: The the the character Smerkov in the Brothers Caught a Masuf,

1626
01:32:49,279 --> 01:32:51,800
who is you know, kind of this dark figure.

1627
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:58,199
Speaker 3: And he's he you'll see in the book. He's you know,

1628
01:32:58,680 --> 01:32:59,560
involved in this murder.

1629
01:32:59,680 --> 01:33:06,039
Speaker 4: But Sakov, it has all these weird he's just kind

1630
01:33:06,079 --> 01:33:08,920
of off. And one of the things he lets on

1631
01:33:09,039 --> 01:33:12,600
about is that when Sakov was a was a child,

1632
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:16,359
he was he was torturing animals and killing them.

1633
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:21,479
Speaker 3: And wow, and it just reminded me, reminded me of

1634
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:23,359
Jim Jones, you.

1635
01:33:23,359 --> 01:33:26,520
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, well Dahmer did this. Dahmer was big about,

1636
01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:29,720
you know, torturing animals. And I mean we see this

1637
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:32,680
in Raskolnikov too. I mean he's he's sort of this

1638
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:35,560
archetypal serial killer axe murder figure.

1639
01:33:37,079 --> 01:33:37,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1640
01:33:37,600 --> 01:33:39,720
Speaker 2: I mean he doesn't he doesn't kill more than two people,

1641
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:42,840
but I mean it's still it's the same idea, right

1642
01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:46,680
of of like the thought process of yeah, the thought

1643
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:49,159
thought process of a narcissist who who's saying, you know,

1644
01:33:49,199 --> 01:33:50,920
I have to do this to show that I'm above

1645
01:33:51,039 --> 01:33:51,920
you know, morality.

1646
01:33:52,399 --> 01:33:56,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, anyway, Yeah, so uh that that that those I

1647
01:33:56,920 --> 01:34:01,279
mean again, yeah, those psychological aspects of Dustayevsky and like kind.

1648
01:34:01,199 --> 01:34:04,359
Speaker 3: Of like he and he his his novels. That's the

1649
01:34:04,399 --> 01:34:06,000
other thing is a lot of them are you know,

1650
01:34:06,119 --> 01:34:09,000
kind of true crime ripped from the headline. That's that's

1651
01:34:09,039 --> 01:34:09,600
what he bases.

1652
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:13,640
Speaker 4: So these are yeah, these are real circumstances that you know,

1653
01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:18,439
he would he would scan the newspaper, true you know,

1654
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:22,000
kind of find these wild stories. You know, they eventually

1655
01:34:22,239 --> 01:34:23,439
make their way into his work.

1656
01:34:24,039 --> 01:34:26,199
Speaker 2: All right, Tristan, anything you want to leave us with

1657
01:34:26,279 --> 01:34:28,000
before we go to the super chats.

1658
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:32,920
Speaker 1: Oh, just Demons was semi autobiographical, but it's also kind

1659
01:34:32,960 --> 01:34:35,199
of biographical as far as what was happening in Russia

1660
01:34:35,199 --> 01:34:37,359
at the time, right, Like there was that the famous

1661
01:34:37,439 --> 01:34:42,560
murder of these revolutionaries that killed or sacrificed another revolutionary

1662
01:34:42,600 --> 01:34:44,560
who they thought was a snitch or you know, an

1663
01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:48,760
infiltrator or something. So yeah, that's that's a really good point. No,

1664
01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:51,199
I mean, I would I would say just I I

1665
01:34:51,319 --> 01:34:54,399
really enjoy Mark's articles on Dostoevsky. So his article in

1666
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:56,680
Duskisky in the third section. That's a great one when

1667
01:34:56,680 --> 01:34:59,520
that you'd set me Jay everything over at Soul in

1668
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:01,119
the East on they ask you that I've read so

1669
01:35:01,199 --> 01:35:05,079
far as fantastic. I'm going to get into Brothers Karamazov

1670
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:07,159
more in the next couple of weeks. I'm on like

1671
01:35:07,279 --> 01:35:09,319
thirty pages in on it right now, and I've read

1672
01:35:09,359 --> 01:35:12,880
The Grand Inquisitor a few years ago. So yeah, I

1673
01:35:12,920 --> 01:35:15,840
think people should check out The Demons Lectures. That did

1674
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:19,279
two lectures on Demons and might do a third. I mean,

1675
01:35:19,319 --> 01:35:21,520
it's just it's it's such an amazing book. There's so

1676
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:26,960
much there. Every character is incredibly well developed and representative

1677
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:31,880
of kind of these archetypal either intellectuals or you know, reactionary.

1678
01:35:32,079 --> 01:35:32,199
Speaker 4: Well.

1679
01:35:32,319 --> 01:35:34,880
Speaker 2: I love that he goes after the Hubris, the pride

1680
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:38,680
of the you know, the intellectual strata, right, I mean

1681
01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:40,239
they're yeah, well he he.

1682
01:35:40,479 --> 01:35:43,319
Speaker 1: When he uses the word intellectual, he means like a goober,

1683
01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:48,319
like he sees these intellectuals delusion, foolish, yeah, delusional, pompous.

1684
01:35:48,479 --> 01:35:51,279
I mean, Stepan Drofimovich is a great character. He's like

1685
01:35:51,359 --> 01:35:54,880
a fop yeah yeah, and he he he wants to

1686
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:57,720
be perceived as being literary. He wants to be perceived.

1687
01:35:58,079 --> 01:36:01,279
But when Dostoevsky uses the word liter he's mocking these

1688
01:36:01,359 --> 01:36:03,479
characters like, oh, he's a very literary man. It's like

1689
01:36:04,239 --> 01:36:07,800
he really means he's a long winded, self indulgent, uh,

1690
01:36:08,119 --> 01:36:09,920
you know, intellectual komer.

1691
01:36:10,039 --> 01:36:12,920
Speaker 2: Basically, well, that's what Raskolnikov had done, was write that

1692
01:36:13,199 --> 01:36:16,560
essay that made him, you know, a suspect and the murder,

1693
01:36:16,680 --> 01:36:19,560
which he did because he had written this essay talking

1694
01:36:19,560 --> 01:36:21,800
about how he was the uber minche and or that

1695
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:23,840
we should strive to be that, you know, this man

1696
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:27,600
of history or whatever that's beyond moral. Yeah.

1697
01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:32,560
Speaker 4: Actually he and he and Demons he mocked, uh, you know,

1698
01:36:32,680 --> 01:36:38,319
and novel fathers and Sons. I mean, you can see

1699
01:36:38,319 --> 01:36:42,960
it heavily reflected in Demons in the story of Stepan

1700
01:36:44,039 --> 01:36:49,600
and his Son. They they're you know, they're that the

1701
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:54,560
generational divide, you know, between the old liberals and the

1702
01:36:54,880 --> 01:36:58,760
new upcoming generation of nihilists. So that I mean, so,

1703
01:36:59,079 --> 01:37:03,439
you know, Dostoyevsky, you know, kind of ohs for that,

1704
01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:07,199
but was also this liberal you know who kind of

1705
01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:13,640
you know, criticized over over criticized Russia, and uh, you know,

1706
01:37:13,760 --> 01:37:15,920
he makes fun of to at the end this this

1707
01:37:16,399 --> 01:37:19,439
author I can't remember the name his name off the

1708
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:23,079
top of my head, but it's it might be like

1709
01:37:23,359 --> 01:37:25,039
it's something like cut comes you and it's.

1710
01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:28,960
Speaker 1: Not Kara's not Karamazov, Karmazeno.

1711
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:32,800
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah.

1712
01:37:32,960 --> 01:37:37,199
Speaker 4: And he uh, you know, he he gives this really

1713
01:37:37,760 --> 01:37:42,039
like you know, there's this banquet and he gives this speech.

1714
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:45,600
Speaker 1: And he's just like you know, mermaids and like it

1715
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:47,600
was so dumb, it was so bad.

1716
01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah so yeah, so and the audience.

1717
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:53,640
Speaker 1: And the audience is like laughing at him and mocking him,

1718
01:37:53,680 --> 01:37:56,359
and they're they're basically like throwing tomatoes at this intellectu

1719
01:37:56,479 --> 01:37:58,640
Yeah yeah. But and then he and this is his

1720
01:37:58,840 --> 01:38:01,279
last speech, right, He's like this is I put it down?

1721
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1722
01:38:03,199 --> 01:38:05,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, Because he's going to Switzerland because he wants to

1723
01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:09,000
live in like the you know, this hyper bourgeois you know,

1724
01:38:09,279 --> 01:38:12,760
little town where the the biggest problem is fixing you know,

1725
01:38:12,960 --> 01:38:15,920
the the drainage pipes or something.

1726
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:18,920
Speaker 1: Well, but remember how Pyotr tells him. He's talking to

1727
01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:21,640
Pilter and he asks him, well, when is the song

1728
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:23,520
going to go down? And Pilter tells him He's like, yeah,

1729
01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:25,800
it'll start in February and it'll be done by October

1730
01:38:26,279 --> 01:38:27,800
or something like that. And he's like, okay, I got

1731
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:29,199
to get out of I gotta get out of here

1732
01:38:29,239 --> 01:38:35,640
by then. Yeah, these cowardish Yeah it's good then, and

1733
01:38:35,800 --> 01:38:38,279
Pyotr mocks him. He says, like, the rats are scurrying

1734
01:38:38,359 --> 01:38:42,359
off the ship. Yeah, basically the intellectuals who know what's coming,

1735
01:38:42,399 --> 01:38:44,760
who are goading this on, right, they're cheering it on.

1736
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:46,680
They're like, yeah, you should do this, but I don't

1737
01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:48,119
want to be involved. I don't want any blood on

1738
01:38:48,199 --> 01:38:49,960
my hands. But you guys are you guys are fine.

1739
01:38:50,039 --> 01:38:52,680
This is how some of the liberals were. And Pieltr

1740
01:38:52,840 --> 01:38:55,439
just is he hates him. He thinks he has nothing

1741
01:38:56,079 --> 01:38:56,359
for him.

1742
01:38:56,560 --> 01:38:59,840
Speaker 4: And same for the you know, the conservative you know,

1743
01:39:00,359 --> 01:39:02,159
the fake I don't know. I mean they're kind of

1744
01:39:02,199 --> 01:39:08,000
like akin to today's conservatives, who just are basically liberals

1745
01:39:08,039 --> 01:39:08,920
from five years ago.

1746
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:13,359
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, like the governor, right, the governor Volemke and

1747
01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:15,720
he yeah, yeah, yeah yeah he really.

1748
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:18,279
Speaker 7: Olympa really agrees with Piotr but tells him you just

1749
01:39:18,359 --> 01:39:20,800
going too fast, right, like I agree with yeah, you go, yeah,

1750
01:39:20,880 --> 01:39:23,279
just slow down, you know, slow down a little we'll

1751
01:39:23,279 --> 01:39:25,199
have We'll have you know, you know, led drag Queen

1752
01:39:25,279 --> 01:39:26,960
story hour ten years from that.

1753
01:39:27,079 --> 01:39:28,039
Speaker 1: We don't need that now.

1754
01:39:28,359 --> 01:39:29,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's let's prepare for it.

1755
01:39:30,159 --> 01:39:32,479
Speaker 1: He's like the Fox News liberal in the book.

1756
01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:34,680
Speaker 2: Right, All right, let's get to the super chats. There

1757
01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:36,760
was a couple from a few days ago that came

1758
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:39,520
in when I was inning the stream BMX nineteen sixty

1759
01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:43,119
six for twenty five dollars, Jay, Uh, do you and

1760
01:39:43,239 --> 01:39:45,560
Father Deacon ann? And I just know Father George a Quaro.

1761
01:39:45,760 --> 01:39:48,880
I believe that I had a brief m exchange with

1762
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:52,199
him one time. I think Father Deacon knows him. I've

1763
01:39:52,279 --> 01:39:56,119
seen the stuff on YouTube. It's very interesting. I'll wait

1764
01:39:56,239 --> 01:39:59,359
for your response before I ask you about him. Cheers.

1765
01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:02,680
Keep up the good work in the BMX nineteen sixty

1766
01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:04,800
six again for twenty five dollars, Jay, is there any

1767
01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:08,079
chance that you would sit down in a podcast with

1768
01:40:08,159 --> 01:40:13,399
your other orthodox brainiacs? Well, we're doing that right now.

1769
01:40:15,600 --> 01:40:20,119
But we have a lot of podcasts with orthodox brainiacs,

1770
01:40:20,119 --> 01:40:21,720
so I'm not sure what you mean there. You said,

1771
01:40:22,279 --> 01:40:25,199
for example, could you do Father Deacon and an Isu

1772
01:40:26,079 --> 01:40:28,119
another two all in one room. I don't know if

1773
01:40:28,159 --> 01:40:30,279
you mean an internet room like a zoom room or

1774
01:40:30,319 --> 01:40:32,039
do you mean in person? It's kind of difficult to

1775
01:40:32,079 --> 01:40:34,920
get everybody in person. Everybody lives in different areas of

1776
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:36,199
the US, so I'm not sure.

1777
01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:38,560
Speaker 1: Just like the smell, you know, I don't know. Not

1778
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:39,319
all of us are read.

1779
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:43,680
Speaker 2: And then he says, answering calls, I mean, I've had

1780
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:46,600
father Deacon on a lot of the Q and A streams,

1781
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:51,520
so yeah, that's always possible. Murca five dollars? Is the

1782
01:40:51,560 --> 01:40:56,479
American dream real or is it a syop? Maybe a

1783
01:40:56,520 --> 01:40:59,319
little bit of both. Can an individual really climb up

1784
01:40:59,319 --> 01:41:01,800
with the ladder and pull himself up by his bootstraps

1785
01:41:01,840 --> 01:41:04,199
to a degree? I mean I think if you work

1786
01:41:04,239 --> 01:41:06,680
really hard, yeah you can. People start their own business

1787
01:41:06,760 --> 01:41:10,319
all the time. Can you pull your bootstraps up from

1788
01:41:10,399 --> 01:41:12,960
poverty and become Sam Walton? I don't think so, not

1789
01:41:13,119 --> 01:41:16,680
without like government assistance. And I mean, you know, he

1790
01:41:17,239 --> 01:41:20,199
couldn't have gotten those Chinese deals with you know, without

1791
01:41:20,319 --> 01:41:23,960
powerful brokers arranging that for him. In my view, so

1792
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:27,199
I don't think anybody just pulls himself up from poverty

1793
01:41:27,239 --> 01:41:30,119
into becoming Elon Musk. I don't think that's very realistic

1794
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:33,720
but interesting question ginghis Khan ten dollars and he says

1795
01:41:33,760 --> 01:41:36,399
absolutely nothing, but thank you so much for that ten

1796
01:41:36,520 --> 01:41:41,159
bucks Greek groyper three dollars. What are your thoughts on Tolstoy?

1797
01:41:41,479 --> 01:41:44,520
I am not a fan of Tolstoy. Tolsloy was a heretic,

1798
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:49,079
a weirdo. You said his orthodox philosophy. He is not Orthodox.

1799
01:41:49,159 --> 01:41:52,000
In fact, he was I think at one point excommunicated,

1800
01:41:52,119 --> 01:41:54,000
So I'm not sure where you get the idea of

1801
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:56,760
these orthodox but he is not Orthodox. He was a

1802
01:41:56,840 --> 01:42:01,760
weird pacifist who had these kind of totally anti sex views.

1803
01:42:02,119 --> 01:42:07,399
So nothing about his views that are correct. Do you

1804
01:42:07,479 --> 01:42:12,439
have philosophical criticisms of Dusky Dostoievsky. I don't personally know

1805
01:42:13,399 --> 01:42:15,319
none that I can think of. Was he an opponent

1806
01:42:15,399 --> 01:42:18,159
of Bolshevism in his latter days? Yeah, I think we

1807
01:42:18,279 --> 01:42:20,760
kind of dealt with that in today's stream. He pretty

1808
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:27,159
consistently shows that the philosophy that his younger revolutionary patriots

1809
01:42:27,239 --> 01:42:31,199
had was destructive to society and demonic. Was he actually

1810
01:42:31,239 --> 01:42:34,800
a Russian nationalist? I think Mark answered that by saying, yes,

1811
01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:38,000
he was a Russian patriot. What was his stance on monarchy.

1812
01:42:38,680 --> 01:42:41,880
I think eventually he came to appreciate the Russian tradition.

1813
01:42:42,000 --> 01:42:43,359
That would be my guest, Mark, do you want to

1814
01:42:43,359 --> 01:42:43,880
comment on that.

1815
01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:51,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was his basic stance. He was also a

1816
01:42:51,319 --> 01:42:57,720
big champion of you know, the peasantry and wanted the

1817
01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:00,840
best for all of Russia's people and in terms of

1818
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:07,199
uh socioeconomic improvement. But he didn't see that as he

1819
01:43:07,319 --> 01:43:13,720
ultimately you know, came to refute violent revolution UH and

1820
01:43:14,479 --> 01:43:19,840
and did see bizarre as you know, UH an institution

1821
01:43:20,079 --> 01:43:24,279
that was you know, part of Russia's organic development.

1822
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:26,239
Speaker 2: Guys, I want to remind you too that if you

1823
01:43:26,399 --> 01:43:30,239
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1824
01:43:30,239 --> 01:43:32,399
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1825
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step up to the plate in terms of supplementation. I've

1826
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1831
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1832
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areas and so it's crucial I think to opping your

1833
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game too that you have a really healthy not just

1834
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:11,359
regimen of exercise and diet, but also supplementation. So, as

1835
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1836
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It's a testosterone booster, it's actually peer reviewed. It really

1837
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does work. So I highly recommend checking that out if

1838
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you're a skeptic, if you just want overall supplementation, I

1839
01:44:23,600 --> 01:44:26,680
recommend the Daily. Big fan of that as well. Jamie

1840
01:44:26,760 --> 01:44:29,880
loves taking the Shei Legit because it really does help

1841
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:32,359
with mental focus and clarity. I mean, she's been reading

1842
01:44:32,439 --> 01:44:35,920
like a beast lately. She just read two books last week, literally,

1843
01:44:36,039 --> 01:44:38,840
one gigantic fat book on Karl Marx. I was like,

1844
01:44:39,479 --> 01:44:41,479
you read that whole, like four hundred based book on

1845
01:44:41,600 --> 01:44:43,359
marks and she's like yep. I was like, well, I

1846
01:44:43,399 --> 01:44:46,359
guess sheilagit actually does work. And then if you're looking

1847
01:44:46,359 --> 01:44:48,279
at for his energy, there's the action two point oh.

1848
01:44:48,920 --> 01:44:50,760
And I want to remind you too that if you

1849
01:44:51,159 --> 01:44:53,560
don't want to have to put in that information every

1850
01:44:53,680 --> 01:44:56,399
month over at chalk dot com, all you have to

1851
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do is sign up for the recurring subscription and there's

1852
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a specific promo code for that, which is J fifty

1853
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1854
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I f E. Just use that promo code over there,

1855
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:09,560
you get fifty three percent off. Also, the normal promo

1856
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:12,560
code is still there, that's J fifty JAY five zero.

1857
01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:14,800
They get you fifty percent off everything there. And remember

1858
01:45:15,199 --> 01:45:18,960
they're pushing legislation right now that would outlaw the sale

1859
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and promotion of supplements on the internet. They're pushing that,

1860
01:45:22,840 --> 01:45:25,560
I think in Illinois. So you guys want to take

1861
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:27,920
advantage of this right now while it's still available. You

1862
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:30,439
won't be able to get fifty percent off right if

1863
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they pass this legislation, So go ahead and take action

1864
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:36,640
on that right now. Chalk dot com they also have

1865
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:40,039
it set up in stacks where there's stacks for guys

1866
01:45:40,239 --> 01:45:43,199
stacks for girls. Makes it really easy. So again, use

1867
01:45:43,279 --> 01:45:46,640
that promo code J fifty three life for the recurring

1868
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:49,960
subscriptions or just J fifty four straight up fifty percent

1869
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:53,199
off anything that you purchase at chalk dot com. And

1870
01:45:53,359 --> 01:45:57,199
we love our Redpill Bays sponsor Chalk dot com. They're

1871
01:45:57,199 --> 01:46:00,399
a great company. Good guys over there. Regal Watch sixty

1872
01:46:00,479 --> 01:46:03,039
nine Jay, thank you very much. I wish you were

1873
01:46:03,119 --> 01:46:06,600
in the UK. All glory to God. Well, I have

1874
01:46:06,760 --> 01:46:09,359
been to the UK and it smelled like Grandma soap

1875
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:11,840
and the food was not very good, but everybody was

1876
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:13,439
fun and cool, so I had a lot of fun.

1877
01:46:13,600 --> 01:46:13,760
Speaker 3: It was.

1878
01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:16,279
Speaker 2: It was a neat place. You can go watch my

1879
01:46:16,640 --> 01:46:18,720
lecture that I did there at Alternative View nine in

1880
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:22,760
Milton Kine. It's still on the internet and it was.

1881
01:46:22,880 --> 01:46:25,079
It was a fun lecture. That's where I met Benny Wills.

1882
01:46:25,159 --> 01:46:27,279
We had a lot of fun there, hung out with

1883
01:46:27,760 --> 01:46:30,600
Patrick and a bunch of other people. So thank you

1884
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:32,640
for the invitation. Maybe one day we'll end up back

1885
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:35,079
in the UK. I don't know, but the way things

1886
01:46:35,079 --> 01:46:37,399
are going, it might not happen. Rachel Wilson five dollars.

1887
01:46:37,600 --> 01:46:40,800
Absolutely amazing. Stream guys, thank you so much. Thank you

1888
01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:45,680
very much, Rachel Wilson, Double Luck seven dollars and seventy

1889
01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:53,640
seven cents, Your dearly sincere servant. Nicholas Prasenos, President of

1890
01:46:56,479 --> 01:47:03,359
String of Letters, Double Luck, Hotel, train and casino. Okay, interesting,

1891
01:47:03,439 --> 01:47:08,159
so are you really a casino gambler man? Or is

1892
01:47:08,279 --> 01:47:10,720
this some kind of weird spy code. I don't know

1893
01:47:10,800 --> 01:47:13,039
what that was a weird super chat, but thank you

1894
01:47:13,159 --> 01:47:14,960
so much for that seven dollars and seventy seven, says

1895
01:47:15,079 --> 01:47:19,439
Orpheus five dollars and says nothing, thank you, Orpheus. Nicholas

1896
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:23,079
one dollar and eleven cents, and it's again Nicholas Passingo's

1897
01:47:23,079 --> 01:47:27,560
president of the Double Luck hotel, train and casino. So

1898
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:31,479
maybe Nicholas is just doing a little advertising there, greeg

1899
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:37,079
groyper three dollars? Was Dossievsky a pacifist? Mark, No, he

1900
01:47:37,239 --> 01:47:37,399
was not.

1901
01:47:40,239 --> 01:47:45,159
Speaker 4: He uh, he had been an officer and then and

1902
01:47:45,239 --> 01:47:52,000
then served enlisted after after his sentence again, but he

1903
01:47:52,199 --> 01:47:56,279
wasn't really he He had backed, you know, later on

1904
01:47:57,119 --> 01:48:03,439
Russia's campaign against the Turks and the Balkans and saw

1905
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:08,039
that as necessary to free the Slavic peoples, you know,

1906
01:48:08,119 --> 01:48:12,359
like the Serbs and the Bulgarians. Even though he also

1907
01:48:12,479 --> 01:48:17,359
predicted interestingly that one day, you know, that the Slavic

1908
01:48:17,399 --> 01:48:21,800
peoples and you know, most of them would be ungrateful

1909
01:48:21,920 --> 01:48:25,479
and would turn their backs to Russia, which was interesting,

1910
01:48:25,880 --> 01:48:29,600
not that you know, I mean, the history is complex,

1911
01:48:29,680 --> 01:48:32,319
but it is an interesting prediction.

1912
01:48:33,680 --> 01:48:36,319
Speaker 3: So was he was not a pacifist like Tolstoy.

1913
01:48:38,119 --> 01:48:42,000
Speaker 2: Can you explain the criticism of Catholics being proto socialists

1914
01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:45,960
and continuing the Roman Empire. I mean, I think that

1915
01:48:46,079 --> 01:48:48,239
if you listen to a lot of our Orthodox critiques,

1916
01:48:48,720 --> 01:48:51,760
that's what you would get in terms of the Second

1917
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:55,920
Europe being a continuation of the Roman imperium, especially in

1918
01:48:55,960 --> 01:48:58,720
terms of the pope. I mean, Orthodoxy is you know,

1919
01:48:59,000 --> 01:49:02,640
synonymous you could say for many centuries with Byzantium, which

1920
01:49:02,760 --> 01:49:05,560
is the real Roman Empire. So what you have in

1921
01:49:05,880 --> 01:49:08,680
the Latin West isn't really the Roman Empire. It's actually

1922
01:49:08,800 --> 01:49:13,239
the Franco Papal Empire. So that would be more like

1923
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:16,600
more akin to the worst pagan elements of the Roman Empire.

1924
01:49:16,640 --> 01:49:18,640
But the proto socialism, I think would come out of

1925
01:49:19,079 --> 01:49:21,520
what you see criticize. My understanding would be what you

1926
01:49:21,560 --> 01:49:24,800
see criticized in the Grand Inquisitor, which is the idea

1927
01:49:24,880 --> 01:49:28,479
of a false religion that is really just trying to

1928
01:49:28,560 --> 01:49:34,680
cater to people's based desires. He was vindicated about Protestantism

1929
01:49:35,399 --> 01:49:38,880
inevitably leading to the loss of spirituality. I don't know

1930
01:49:39,399 --> 01:49:42,079
what his views on Protestanism were, mart would you agree

1931
01:49:42,119 --> 01:49:42,239
with that?

1932
01:49:44,119 --> 01:49:47,359
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I think so. He Yeah, he kind of

1933
01:49:47,359 --> 01:49:50,920
saw Protestantism, as you know, kind of an outgrowth of

1934
01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:59,159
certain rationalistic elements within Latin you know, or the earlier

1935
01:49:59,239 --> 01:50:08,279
Latin church that kind of rebelled and ultimately carried themselves

1936
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:10,479
on their logical course to oblivion.

1937
01:50:11,159 --> 01:50:17,880
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, double you thirteen again, two dollars cents. Nicholas

1938
01:50:18,159 --> 01:50:23,000
Prostino's president of the Double Luck Hotel, train and casino.

1939
01:50:23,039 --> 01:50:26,319
He's really got an important message for us here. Great

1940
01:50:26,359 --> 01:50:30,920
Greek corporate again three dollars. Sorry, I can't answer that one.

1941
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:37,800
You know, that's too controversial, But I think if you

1942
01:50:37,880 --> 01:50:39,960
did a little researching you probably could find some more

1943
01:50:40,000 --> 01:50:44,760
information on that. Tenna brow giso one dollar. Would you

1944
01:50:45,000 --> 01:50:55,239
debate classical theists or Speczo pinesap no idea? Who Speczo

1945
01:50:55,399 --> 01:50:57,560
pinesep is? That doesn't sound like a real name, so

1946
01:50:57,680 --> 01:51:02,319
it's made up by kid. I did a almost debate

1947
01:51:02,520 --> 01:51:04,800
quasi debate with classical tea this years ago. I don't

1948
01:51:04,840 --> 01:51:06,479
know why we would need to really return to that.

1949
01:51:08,760 --> 01:51:14,399
So probably reach orthodox people. Well, I mean, I don't know.

1950
01:51:14,520 --> 01:51:16,800
I don't know what i'd say about that slow boy metaphysician.

1951
01:51:16,840 --> 01:51:19,600
Five dollars are very important. Part of crime and punishment

1952
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:23,760
is that Raskolnikov's name means schism, interesting. So he's divided

1953
01:51:23,760 --> 01:51:25,800
against himself. I guess for a lot of the novel

1954
01:51:25,840 --> 01:51:28,520
that was I'm guessing that's what that means. Dolskevsky is

1955
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:37,119
Dostoevsky is acknowledging the demystification and over scholasticization of Christianity

1956
01:51:37,199 --> 01:51:40,720
in the West that ultimately leads to Raskolnikov's atheism. Yes,

1957
01:51:40,760 --> 01:51:45,079
I think that that's pretty clear. Zach fluten three dollars.

1958
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:48,800
When can we expect a book from Mark hackerd.

1959
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:54,800
Speaker 3: Hey, Zach, I will get to it eventually. I would

1960
01:51:54,840 --> 01:51:55,560
really like to do that.

1961
01:51:55,760 --> 01:51:58,319
Speaker 2: So well, I'm you know, you can always come on

1962
01:51:58,399 --> 01:52:00,520
my website and channel and promote it, so you have

1963
01:52:00,640 --> 01:52:04,880
a social media network ready made for you. Oh, thank you,

1964
01:52:05,399 --> 01:52:10,680
Greek groper. Three dollars. Did Constantine pervert the Church? No,

1965
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:14,800
that's a seven day Adventist Baptist kind of mythology. Is

1966
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:19,039
the militarism of the businessing empire opposed to the original

1967
01:52:19,119 --> 01:52:21,359
teachings of the Church. No, I don't think so. I

1968
01:52:21,439 --> 01:52:26,119
think that Christ is the Lord of all areas of life,

1969
01:52:26,239 --> 01:52:31,720
including military. Is the Greek and Russian Church more authentically Christian? Well?

1970
01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:35,960
The Orthodox Church is I believe the true Church, so

1971
01:52:36,399 --> 01:52:40,319
that's not limited to Greek or Russian. Greek Groper one dollar,

1972
01:52:40,560 --> 01:52:44,039
is your in your opinion? Who are the best monarchs

1973
01:52:44,039 --> 01:52:48,079
in the Byzantine Empire uh and the Russian Empire. I

1974
01:52:48,159 --> 01:52:49,960
don't have a list. I mean, we have some saints,

1975
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:52,000
so they would be the ones that are that are sainted.

1976
01:52:52,039 --> 01:52:56,439
I mean, you know, Zar Nicholas is sainted, so any

1977
01:52:56,479 --> 01:52:59,119
of the saints would be the best. I don't I

1978
01:52:59,159 --> 01:53:03,439
don't have a list the favorites though, great Grouper one Dollar.

1979
01:53:03,520 --> 01:53:05,479
I haven't watched your video on church and state. Do

1980
01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:08,840
you believe the Byzantine Empire at any point of history

1981
01:53:09,119 --> 01:53:14,039
was the ideal state on Earth? No, I don't think

1982
01:53:14,079 --> 01:53:17,920
there's any ideal states. I think the Byzantine double Headed

1983
01:53:17,960 --> 01:53:22,199
Eagle Symphony a model is the model that Divine Providence

1984
01:53:22,600 --> 01:53:25,119
eventually accepts in the history of the Church. There's no

1985
01:53:25,239 --> 01:53:28,720
ideals in history, per se. Is there another nation that

1986
01:53:28,800 --> 01:53:31,640
you would prefer? No, I don't have any. I'm not

1987
01:53:31,720 --> 01:53:33,560
a LARPer, so I'm not going to pick out, like

1988
01:53:34,039 --> 01:53:38,279
you know, coolest ideal states. I just don't think that

1989
01:53:38,359 --> 01:53:40,800
that's doesn't really make much sense.

1990
01:53:40,640 --> 01:53:43,640
Speaker 1: About your favorite races, JA like favorite least favorite races?

1991
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:51,399
Speaker 2: Asking everyone five dollars, what is the most rewarding part

1992
01:53:51,520 --> 01:53:59,039
of creating content like today's stream? Basically milking money from

1993
01:53:59,079 --> 01:54:02,439
pay piggies. It's really the only reward. Everything for me

1994
01:54:02,800 --> 01:54:07,000
is just monetary fulfillment significance. Now number two would be

1995
01:54:07,079 --> 01:54:10,600
beating Tristan in terms of the promo code, topping him

1996
01:54:10,640 --> 01:54:13,199
in any monetary way. That's really the only rewards that

1997
01:54:13,239 --> 01:54:15,760
I'm looking for in life. That's what it all comes

1998
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:18,680
down to, Tristan. Is that the most rewarding element for

1999
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:19,720
you for live streams?

2000
01:54:20,920 --> 01:54:25,680
Speaker 1: Uh? Well, I mean subtly insulting Jay, taking out my

2001
01:54:26,199 --> 01:54:29,520
you know, my my insecurities, you know, venting and projecting

2002
01:54:29,560 --> 01:54:34,720
them on other people. I mean, it's the only thing

2003
01:54:34,760 --> 01:54:37,560
I can I would say, tops. It would be the

2004
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:42,520
emotional abuse of my family, you know, just subtle emotional

2005
01:54:42,560 --> 01:54:45,239
abuse of of j Is is incredibly fulfilling.

2006
01:54:45,439 --> 01:54:46,359
Speaker 2: Okay, awesome, Yeah, you.

2007
01:54:46,399 --> 01:54:48,279
Speaker 1: Know, just by the way, the real promo code do

2008
01:54:48,279 --> 01:54:50,199
you guys want to see there's the real promo code

2009
01:54:50,239 --> 01:54:50,680
for chalk?

2010
01:54:51,239 --> 01:54:54,479
Speaker 2: Is that the mute Tristan? You're not really coming through

2011
01:54:54,600 --> 01:54:57,199
right now because we're getting there's a real like we're

2012
01:54:57,199 --> 01:55:00,880
getting a lot of static that maybe you know, there's

2013
01:55:00,920 --> 01:55:03,159
a lot of static coming through. We can't really hear

2014
01:55:03,239 --> 01:55:07,359
what you're saying right now, so muted muted himself. Uh

2015
01:55:08,199 --> 01:55:11,199
have I muted? Yeah, there's a lot of static there.

2016
01:55:11,199 --> 01:55:12,720
I don't know what you're talking about. Your let's we

2017
01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:23,680
got to move on, limited time, rushing five dollars for Mark.

2018
01:55:24,319 --> 01:55:30,720
Here's a question. Are Dostiowski's Dustyevsky's books more rewarding if

2019
01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:34,479
they are read in the original Russian or do you

2020
01:55:34,560 --> 01:55:36,640
think that English translations are spot on?

2021
01:55:38,479 --> 01:55:40,760
Speaker 3: I think the English translations from what I've seen are

2022
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:41,239
pretty good.

2023
01:55:42,279 --> 01:55:46,199
Speaker 4: But reading in the in the original is a little

2024
01:55:46,239 --> 01:55:49,720
bit more rewarding because you have you have some a

2025
01:55:49,800 --> 01:55:55,600
little bit more cultural context, and yeah, the language flows,

2026
01:55:57,199 --> 01:56:00,680
so you know, you can kind of if you if

2027
01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:02,720
you zoom out a little bit, you get a sense

2028
01:56:02,800 --> 01:56:07,560
of the art even more so if you want to

2029
01:56:07,600 --> 01:56:11,960
study Russian by all means, do and you know, some

2030
01:56:12,119 --> 01:56:14,600
day you can read it in the original and it's

2031
01:56:14,680 --> 01:56:16,600
it's awesome, But in the you know, if if you don't,

2032
01:56:16,680 --> 01:56:19,920
that's okay, Like there there's still some some excellent translations

2033
01:56:19,960 --> 01:56:20,239
out there.

2034
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:23,640
Speaker 1: How how long are you would they take take for

2035
01:56:23,760 --> 01:56:25,960
somebody to know, maybe be able to read something like

2036
01:56:26,039 --> 01:56:27,159
on the level of Dostoevsky.

2037
01:56:28,600 --> 01:56:33,520
Speaker 4: Do you think that I'd say probably around Oh, I

2038
01:56:33,560 --> 01:56:36,399
don't know, like like the novels, and you know you

2039
01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:40,560
have an arena binding by you because like there's he writes, right,

2040
01:56:40,640 --> 01:56:43,119
he writes that, you know in a certain you know,

2041
01:56:43,359 --> 01:56:45,920
sometimes poetic way in his words words that you're not

2042
01:56:45,960 --> 01:56:48,479
going to come across often. But you know, I'd say

2043
01:56:48,479 --> 01:56:53,920
probably like four, four or five years. You know, you

2044
01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:59,279
can get fluid, you know, depending on how immersed you are.

2045
01:56:59,359 --> 01:57:01,359
But you know, it can be like it can take

2046
01:57:01,359 --> 01:57:04,600
it everything here like two and a half if you're

2047
01:57:04,680 --> 01:57:06,039
very immersed, like three years.

2048
01:57:06,439 --> 01:57:08,199
Speaker 3: I mean, if you're over there, it's the best.

2049
01:57:08,279 --> 01:57:10,199
Speaker 4: You know, you can get fluent very quickly, but if

2050
01:57:10,239 --> 01:57:13,840
you're studying it academically, it can take a few years. Yeah,

2051
01:57:14,399 --> 01:57:16,880
and then being there is the best or just you know,

2052
01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:18,960
having talked to talk to every day is the best.

2053
01:57:18,800 --> 01:57:21,560
Speaker 1: Way to do it, if you don't mind, Like what

2054
01:57:21,760 --> 01:57:23,640
what about what aspects do you think we would miss?

2055
01:57:23,840 --> 01:57:28,279
I think you know, the actual the actual Russian? What

2056
01:57:28,359 --> 01:57:33,000
what gets lost in translation? If anything? Just just some.

2057
01:57:35,600 --> 01:57:41,319
Speaker 4: Just some work, the way there work, and the sometimes

2058
01:57:41,399 --> 01:57:48,039
cultural associations or cultural contexts and their their backgrounds, you know,

2059
01:57:48,239 --> 01:57:54,159
so that can kind of that can sometimes get lost

2060
01:57:54,359 --> 01:57:57,479
when it gets switched over to English. Not all the time,

2061
01:57:57,560 --> 01:58:00,359
but and and you know, we're not you know, the

2062
01:58:01,680 --> 01:58:04,560
like this, you know in the in the original, you

2063
01:58:04,640 --> 01:58:10,119
know this has this context or meaning. But uh, there's

2064
01:58:10,760 --> 01:58:15,880
there's something about language, you know, like poetry or his

2065
01:58:16,159 --> 01:58:20,000
art that you know, when it's in the original, it's

2066
01:58:20,039 --> 01:58:22,880
like it's like the fullest it's the fullest, fullest picture,

2067
01:58:23,359 --> 01:58:25,000
and it's a thing of beauty. I mean, so it's

2068
01:58:25,039 --> 01:58:27,039
kind of an esthetic. It's almost kind of an aesthetic

2069
01:58:27,159 --> 01:58:32,920
thing as well. But it's still it's still incredibradibally originally English.

2070
01:58:33,000 --> 01:58:36,880
So yeah, it's not like people who can't read it.

2071
01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:41,560
They're not like missing anything huge, you know, but but

2072
01:58:41,680 --> 01:58:43,560
it's still still it's.

2073
01:58:43,399 --> 01:58:48,359
Speaker 1: Still Funnykov said that he hated the translations. What was it,

2074
01:58:48,479 --> 01:58:55,159
the the originally translation was a constant guarded Yeah, and

2075
01:58:55,199 --> 01:58:57,079
so they're like not even worth reading. He said that

2076
01:58:57,119 --> 01:59:00,640
they're just she tries to turn everything into into like

2077
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:02,880
a Steinbecker Hemingway style.

2078
01:59:03,640 --> 01:59:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, depends on the on the translator, you know.

2079
01:59:06,880 --> 01:59:08,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that all right?

2080
01:59:11,159 --> 01:59:14,279
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, from what I know that versions are pretty good.

2081
01:59:14,600 --> 01:59:18,680
Speaker 2: So I forgot that there was more to asking everyone's question.

2082
01:59:18,920 --> 01:59:20,960
I missed the rest of it. He's that was a joke,

2083
01:59:21,039 --> 01:59:22,640
by the way, about pay piggies and all that. That's

2084
01:59:22,760 --> 01:59:24,920
that's a song. That's my hit single. That is out

2085
01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:26,600
by the way. You can access my hit single.

2086
01:59:26,680 --> 01:59:29,960
Speaker 1: I have actual piggies that actually I have actually butcher

2087
01:59:30,079 --> 01:59:32,239
and eat, so those are those are my pay piggies.

2088
01:59:32,239 --> 01:59:36,159
And and of course I'm still jealous of data World country.

2089
01:59:36,600 --> 01:59:40,920
Speaker 2: Basically trade, uh you go when you go to market,

2090
01:59:41,119 --> 01:59:43,800
basically you take pelts and they trade him for pigs.

2091
01:59:43,880 --> 01:59:46,640
So he's literally talking about purchasing pigs with animals.

2092
01:59:46,880 --> 01:59:48,319
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is like, in a way, I do

2093
01:59:48,520 --> 01:59:50,880
have I get to eat my pay piggy's jay, you

2094
01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:53,399
only get to eat with the money that your pay piggies.

2095
01:59:54,840 --> 01:59:57,760
I eat my pay I drink your milkshake, eat my

2096
01:59:57,880 --> 01:59:58,520
pay piggies.

2097
01:59:59,079 --> 02:00:01,520
Speaker 2: Well my milk brings all the boys to the yard

2098
02:00:01,600 --> 02:00:03,640
and they're like it's better than y'all's.

2099
02:00:05,359 --> 02:00:05,479
Speaker 1: Uh.

2100
02:00:08,880 --> 02:00:11,640
Speaker 2: Where was that? Oh? The rest of that question was

2101
02:00:12,520 --> 02:00:15,840
what is the most rewarding part of creating content? Is

2102
02:00:15,880 --> 02:00:20,039
it researching the material, collaborating with people, engaging with slow boys,

2103
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:27,359
getting pay piggies, uh, asking everyone in the stream. So

2104
02:00:27,600 --> 02:00:30,520
the question is to each person what they enjoy most

2105
02:00:30,560 --> 02:00:35,239
about collaborating with people. I would say that all of

2106
02:00:35,319 --> 02:00:37,520
it's fun. I mean, I mean, I really enjoy being

2107
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:39,760
my own boss. That's the main thing that you know

2108
02:00:40,000 --> 02:00:43,920
is enjoyable For me, It's it's rewarding. I think to

2109
02:00:44,359 --> 02:00:48,159
you know, give people value, you know, content that they

2110
02:00:48,279 --> 02:00:51,520
value that helps them. Those things are very rewarding. It's

2111
02:00:51,560 --> 02:00:54,560
fun to work with people. It's fun to just clown

2112
02:00:54,640 --> 02:00:56,680
around and act like an idiot on the streams. I mean,

2113
02:00:56,720 --> 02:00:59,399
all of that is fun to me. That the subject material,

2114
02:00:59,520 --> 02:01:02,000
all this so that we cover, it's all kind of

2115
02:01:02,039 --> 02:01:05,159
equally you know, interesting and entertaining to me. Tristan, what

2116
02:01:05,199 --> 02:01:08,640
do you enjoy most about content creation on the internets?

2117
02:01:09,439 --> 02:01:12,079
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, second that second that you know, it's

2118
02:01:12,359 --> 02:01:16,439
all fun. I like, I like when people actually help people,

2119
02:01:16,680 --> 02:01:20,039
you know, kind of it's weird, like because I've met

2120
02:01:20,600 --> 02:01:22,520
people and they tell me like, oh dude, you know,

2121
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:24,800
like I used to be fat and lazy and you know,

2122
02:01:25,600 --> 02:01:28,119
it's funny like to somehow be able to help somebody

2123
02:01:28,119 --> 02:01:33,000
you never met. But yeah, you know, yeah, Actually in

2124
02:01:33,079 --> 02:01:36,479
the moment, the most enjoyment I get is actually speaking

2125
02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:38,600
with people like you know, Jay and Mark and you know,

2126
02:01:38,640 --> 02:01:43,720
people whose ideas, people who I think are are are

2127
02:01:43,800 --> 02:01:46,199
worth listening to, actually get talked to them, not just

2128
02:01:46,319 --> 02:01:47,960
listen to it. So I like that part of it.

2129
02:01:49,079 --> 02:01:52,720
Speaker 2: Mark. I know you're not as active in the sphere

2130
02:01:52,800 --> 02:01:55,399
of being an e celebrity as you once were, but

2131
02:01:56,560 --> 02:01:58,880
we still appreciate you, we still follow you. I think

2132
02:01:58,920 --> 02:02:00,880
you're still an e celebto us in our hearts.

2133
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:03,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a ghost of.

2134
02:02:05,560 --> 02:02:09,279
Speaker 2: Let's see we got all right. Well, I appreciate that

2135
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:12,600
very much. So see Liberal Arts four or five dollars.

2136
02:02:13,479 --> 02:02:17,520
Do you think that any key points missed or missed

2137
02:02:17,600 --> 02:02:22,039
when you study books like Dossievsky in and US University?

2138
02:02:22,439 --> 02:02:27,760
In other words, does US academic university setting miss key

2139
02:02:27,880 --> 02:02:30,840
points that you would get in the the spiritual themes

2140
02:02:30,840 --> 02:02:31,159
of the book?

2141
02:02:31,199 --> 02:02:31,319
Speaker 4: Oh?

2142
02:02:31,359 --> 02:02:35,039
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, like my class where we did crime

2143
02:02:35,079 --> 02:02:39,600
and Punishment and grant Inquisitor was taught by a you know,

2144
02:02:39,640 --> 02:02:45,239
an atheist, uh Nietzschean philosophy guy who had done a

2145
02:02:45,279 --> 02:02:48,399
lot of lip work, so he was a really intelligent guy,

2146
02:02:48,520 --> 02:02:50,560
and he did bring out a lot of interesting elements

2147
02:02:50,600 --> 02:02:55,279
in terms of themes within crime and punishment. But you're

2148
02:02:55,520 --> 02:02:58,960
definitely not gonna get much to do with Orthodox or

2149
02:02:58,960 --> 02:03:02,840
anything like that. So you'll get a good literary critique,

2150
02:03:02,960 --> 02:03:06,279
but there will be gaps, I think. But I don't

2151
02:03:06,359 --> 02:03:10,479
know whether you would necessarily get that in any modern universities.

2152
02:03:10,640 --> 02:03:12,920
I mean, in other words, all modern university. He should

2153
02:03:12,920 --> 02:03:16,920
probably be susceptible to the same kinds of atheism and liberalism.

2154
02:03:17,039 --> 02:03:19,399
But uh, Mark Mike could speak to that. He might

2155
02:03:19,439 --> 02:03:22,239
have had classes on Doskovsky that we were exceptional. I

2156
02:03:22,239 --> 02:03:22,520
don't know.

2157
02:03:23,840 --> 02:03:25,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really depends on the professor.

2158
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:29,800
Speaker 4: You know, you could you could be lucky, or you

2159
02:03:29,880 --> 02:03:33,319
could be you know, stuck with someone who's not you know,

2160
02:03:33,399 --> 02:03:40,239
who's missing out on the metaphysics and some issues. I had,

2161
02:03:41,760 --> 02:03:45,199
uh my professor who kind of introduced me to you know,

2162
02:03:45,279 --> 02:03:49,119
the depths of the thought. He was he's an Orthodox Christian,

2163
02:03:49,159 --> 02:03:52,479
you know, you know, a r Russian guy actually a

2164
02:03:52,600 --> 02:03:59,119
Soviet gymnist who who came over during the war, and uh,

2165
02:03:59,279 --> 02:04:00,319
you know, he's a brilliant guy.

2166
02:04:00,840 --> 02:04:02,920
Speaker 2: Was the movie Jim Kotta about him?

2167
02:04:03,520 --> 02:04:05,359
Speaker 3: He was actually in Jim Kotta. You know, he's the

2168
02:04:05,479 --> 02:04:09,239
Russian bad guy when they were fighting ninjas, you know,

2169
02:04:10,439 --> 02:04:10,960
in the Mountain.

2170
02:04:11,079 --> 02:04:11,880
Speaker 2: That's a true story.

2171
02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:17,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's based on It's like Frank Duke's based

2172
02:04:17,840 --> 02:04:18,479
on true events.

2173
02:04:18,560 --> 02:04:22,359
Speaker 2: You know, that's Sport's a true story, right, Van Daman,

2174
02:04:23,640 --> 02:04:26,079
All right, well, thank you guys so much again. Guys.

2175
02:04:26,199 --> 02:04:30,359
Mark's work is h in the show description over at

2176
02:04:30,479 --> 02:04:34,279
both sould the East and esp Espionage History Archive dot com.

2177
02:04:35,000 --> 02:04:38,279
Tristan's work is over at his channel primal Lege Health.

2178
02:04:38,359 --> 02:04:40,279
Of course, if you sign up for rock Finn, you

2179
02:04:40,319 --> 02:04:44,039
can also get access to both my and Tristan's premium content,

2180
02:04:44,159 --> 02:04:49,319
as well as many other really hardcore deep researchers. You

2181
02:04:49,399 --> 02:04:53,520
got Whitney Webb, you got Richard Grove, you got everybody

2182
02:04:53,600 --> 02:04:56,000
over there. Now, Eddie Bravo's over there. You got Sam Tripoli,

2183
02:04:56,039 --> 02:04:59,079
you got all kinds of people over there on Rock Finn.

2184
02:04:59,279 --> 02:05:01,159
I'm a huge fan rock Fin. They've been really good

2185
02:05:01,199 --> 02:05:04,640
to us as content creators, So make your way over

2186
02:05:04,720 --> 02:05:07,079
to rock Fin and get that full on subscription. One

2187
02:05:07,159 --> 02:05:10,520
last super chat from Zach Fuyton for five dollars. Jay

2188
02:05:10,600 --> 02:05:13,000
and Tristana. We want to wrap battle right now now.

2189
02:05:13,039 --> 02:05:15,399
I'm sorry even though you give me five bucks. I've

2190
02:05:15,399 --> 02:05:17,399
been talking for you know, we've been going for over

2191
02:05:17,479 --> 02:05:20,640
two hours. I had workout to do earlier today too,

2192
02:05:20,720 --> 02:05:23,000
so I'm kind of worn out. I cannot immediately go

2193
02:05:23,159 --> 02:05:30,800
into an imp. But I put out no I put

2194
02:05:30,840 --> 02:05:34,880
out two single for the record, two hot singles. Tristan

2195
02:05:34,920 --> 02:05:36,640
has none. I put out two hot singles in the

2196
02:05:36,720 --> 02:05:39,960
last month. Christan has none too. They're they're they're topping

2197
02:05:40,039 --> 02:05:41,600
the R and B underground.

2198
02:05:43,039 --> 02:05:46,640
Speaker 1: It's it's interspersed throughout all these golden.

2199
02:05:46,720 --> 02:05:49,520
Speaker 2: You're underground that there's no there's no hits or songs.

2200
02:05:49,600 --> 02:05:51,880
That's how underground you are. There's like actually no content

2201
02:05:51,960 --> 02:05:55,399
because it's so obscure. I have two chart toppers right now,

2202
02:05:55,640 --> 02:05:58,079
so go listen to those again.

2203
02:05:58,920 --> 02:06:01,720
Speaker 1: Admit it's defeat before the rap that'll even happen.

2204
02:06:01,880 --> 02:06:04,279
Speaker 2: So we'll just all right, Thank you guys so much.

2205
02:06:04,840 --> 02:06:06,359
Everybody have a good night. If you wouldn't like it,

2206
02:06:06,479 --> 02:06:08,680
you're also comment below if you think that there's topics

2207
02:06:08,680 --> 02:06:12,439
that we missed. Remember, we don't get algorithmic promotions, So

2208
02:06:12,560 --> 02:06:14,439
you guys have to like and share this, Promote this

2209
02:06:14,520 --> 02:06:15,000
on your social