Speaker 1: You know the other day Jay, and he took notes
from me and he said, like, almsgiving was one of
the things you said.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you did he take notes from the underground
for you? Tristan took.
Speaker 3: Uh. You know.
Speaker 2: So when I was at this one of the Orthodox
conferences a couple of years ago, there was a Dustiesky
scholar there and a big Orthodox guy, and he was
going into depth about like how you need to do
it in order, and his whole thing was, you got
to start with notes from the underground. So Mark, I
assume you've read that one, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a while though, Okay, yeah, I'm not
as strong.
Speaker 2: That's cool. It was probably fresh in Tristan's mind. So
we should be live and if you would in the chat, everybody,
if you can give me a little bit of a
indicator mods, I can only trust the mods. Anybody else
who asked this question to will troll me for the
next three hours. We won't go for three hours, don't worry.
But is the sound good? Can you guys? Hear those guys?
Pretty good? Everybody good? Let me know in the chat
I'll be paying attention. And tonight we're gonna talk about Dostievsky.
We're gonna go through some of the works. I think
everybody here tonight has had a decent amount of familiarity
with elements of his works. Everybody here is pretty much
a fan. We're all on the same page in terms
of Orthodoxy. And it's great that he's one of the
greatest writers of all time and he ended up being
explicitly Orthodox, and I had forgotten that. I mean, I
mean serious about his faith, not just you know, orthodox
in name. But I had forgotten that elements of crime
and punishment also relate to the events in his life
when he tried to kind of go against the czar
and ended up in front of the firing squad, and
that was part of the story. I mean, he's kind
of Raskolnikov, you know, to a degree in terms of
crime and punishment due to his experience in that life
changing event when he was, you know, put in front
of the firing squad. So Tristan has just been finished
or just been working through Demons. He's done a two
really good installments over on his channel as well as
in an analysis with Beslet Analyzer of Dostievsky in terms
of Notes from the Underground so I want to recommend
to everybody that if you haven't seen those, go and
watch those. Also, Mark at Sold the East and at
Espionage History Archive has quite a bit of information and
essays and translations that he's done on Dostoevsky as well, including,
for example, Dosievsky and Platonism is a two part essay
he did over at sold the East that is really
relevant to what we're going to talk about tonight. So
let's start with you. Mark, tell us about maybe a
little bit why you why you found him so interesting,
and then maybe recount to us why it is that
he matters in terms of that that classic story of
being involved in revolutionary philosophy, and then what brought him
to that firing squad incident.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so with Dostoyevsky, Uh, yeah, he is a fascinating,
fascinating character. I put him up there with Shakespeare, you know,
in terms of his brilliance as a writer. But the
way I came to appreciate that Stayevsky was I was
in college. I was a Russian major, and towards the
end of college, you know, probably like around senior year,
I I was never really into literature too much, you know,
I mean I read you know, requisite stuff, you know,
some tall stories, some grey yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,
you know, like Scratch and Sniffs three books that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 3: But I never.
Speaker 4: I for whatever reason, I was just really I was
hyper focused on you know, KGB stuff and stuff stuff.
Speaker 3: About like you know, the Cold War and or organized
crime like assens. I love that stuff.
Speaker 4: So, uh, one one day I ordered a book from
this company called Eastview, which they shipped books from Moscow,
which I thought was awesome, and I I ordered a
book like it was like an academic study on contract killers,
on professional killers in Russian and but the book they
sent me was The Spiritual Roots of the Russian people.
Speaker 3: So I just kind of like I kind of looked
at it.
Speaker 4: I was like, I don't want this, you know, like
I I ended up giving it to my professor, who
you know, and she she is actually you know, very
well versed in Dustayevski.
Speaker 3: But uh, that kind of set me on the path.
Speaker 4: At least it was a scene in my mind that
maybe I should look in to the spiritual roots of
Russian culture since I was so I was so hyper
focused on you know, geopolitics and intelligence stuff and things
like that. Uh, I had a I had a seminar
my senior year, and we, uh, my professor and I
we went over the work of Nicholas Betzjaev. And Betazjaev
was a Russian philosopher, and he wrote, uh, an excellent
work on Dostayevsky, An Analysis of Dostaevsky.
Speaker 3: And I recommend it to everyone. It's not too long,
you know, it's.
Speaker 4: Not like a super thick book, but it's it's it's
very excellent, it's very incisive.
Speaker 3: And uh, he recommended that.
Speaker 4: To me, you know, for further reading by Betazjaev, and
so I, you know, took it upon myself, you know,
post college, you know, in the few years after, I
eventually got into reading the Stayevsky and.
Speaker 3: I didn't regret it.
Speaker 4: He Stayevsky is someone who's not he's he's a superb psychologist,
but he also goes into the depths of the human
soul and you know, like all the way into the abyss,
but he ultimately reaches for God. And that's that's what
I love about him, is he ultimately seeks transcendence. And
as an you know, as as an Orthodox Christian, he
he you know, very specifically declared that you know the Yeah,
the ultimate goal of our existence was unity with God,
unity with Christ, the God Man.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I as far as.
Speaker 4: Why is so important today, if you if you read
his works, and you can start, like for those of
uh you know, the audience who haven't read any of
the Stayevsky yet, like you can start with the short stories.
They're they're very interesting. And my my favorite short story
of his is a Dream of a Ridiculous Man and
that concerns nihilism and in in kind of a fantastic manner.
But it's an it's an awesome story. It's uh yeah,
it's it's entertaining and weird and dark and uh uh
cool all at the same time. But uh, as far
as why he matters today, I mean, Dostoyevsky has you know, uh,
just a lot of commentary on metaphysics, on man's place
in the cosmos, you know, the the struggle between good
and evil within each person, as well as you know,
things regarding i mean you know, made up politics or
matters of culture and religion, and also things like you know, subversion, uh,
secret societies, even.
Speaker 3: T E R R R groups.
Speaker 4: Uh, all that stuff is in they like you know, conspiracy,
conspiracy stuff. It's it's especially in demons, you know, it's
it's there. And and also you know, leading up to
you know, the ultimate conspiracy, you know, kind of the
mystery of iniquity, right that the you know, the figure
of anti Christ.
Speaker 3: Uh, he writes about all of it.
Speaker 2: Was it all? So last question to you, uh, to
be clear what what was this story about? Like he
had been involved in some of these revolutionary you know
movements when he was younger, and then he ends up
before a firing squad and this becomes a very pivotal
moment for him. Could you recount a little bit of
that what that story was?
Speaker 4: Sorry I forgot answered that part. So, yeah, dasta Yevsky
Uh was a military engineer. And then you know he
wrote on the side and his hes a as a
young guy in Saint Petersburg, his his work, his early
days of writing. Uh, it got a positive response, and
he was hanging out with uh intellectuals you know what
would later become uh the Slavophile Western divide.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: But he uh, he he was, he was, yeah, he was.
He was really engrossed in you know, matters of intellect
and and also you know, philosophy, and but he was
he was definitely uh, someone who was he wanted a
solution to the problems Russia was facing at the time,
you know, especially the the the question of serfdom and
you know, the free freedom for the serfs.
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, he that that was that was something that.
Speaker 4: He really devoted a lot of attention to and he
he felt, you know, a great kinship with the Russian people.
So uh, in a lot of the intellectual circles he ran,
and they were discussing socialist ideals and.
Speaker 3: Ultimately he he.
Speaker 4: He joined a group called the Petrashevsky Petroshevsky but the
Petrashevsky Circle.
Speaker 2: And now was this like was this like a secret
society or was it just a bunch of kind of
goofy you know, college.
Speaker 4: Intellectual Yeah, it was more of an intellectual club. They
did discuss you know some you know what we're considered, uh,
you know, more politically risky topics. You know that we're
not in sync with uh the uh you know, the
bizarre or you know that what was is just formally
called the uh the autocracy. But uh, what happened was
the Petroshevsky Circle basically split off into a smaller group
and they started and that included Dastayevsky, and they started
talking like hardcore revolution and overthrowing the government, you know,
and you know, creating like bringing about a regime that
would uh be that would solve the Russian people's problems,
and that that uh that ultimately of course attracted the
attention of the Czar's secret Service, the secret police.
Speaker 3: They were called the the Third Section.
Speaker 2: You have an essay on this too, right, yes, yes, I.
Speaker 4: Think it's called Dostoyevsky's Secret War. And yes, so that
group that's smaller, that subgroup of the Petroschewsky circle was
penetrated by an agent of the Third Section who then, uh,
basically I was able to provide information on everyone and
they were all rounded up.
Speaker 2: So they had us, they had us, They had a
sus Glowy in their midst Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you know, it's it's it's yeah.
Speaker 3: It was a counter counter intelligence type operation.
Speaker 4: And and so Dostoyevsky ended up in the Peter Paul Fortress, uh,
and he got sentenced to death for I think it
was for being at a he was present at a
reading of revolutionary literature or was there was a band letter.
I think it might have been a billion Ski letter.
Billionski was like a pro western. He was a Westernizer writer,
you know, uh, you know, as opposed to the Slavophiles,
of which you know, Staevsky would be a major inspiration.
Speaker 2: Right, And I assume by pro Western you mean the
ideas of Western liberalism.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Western liberalism, enlightenment. Yeah, these these types of ideas.
And uh, Sostayevsky he he he was about to be
executed and by firing squad, I believe, and uh, but
the bizarre had played a prank on him and he
wasn't actually going to be executed, but uh, at the
very last moment it was called off and.
Speaker 1: It was Ashton Kutcher.
Speaker 2: Did that, right?
Speaker 1: I thought it was Ashton?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was that.
Speaker 4: He got punk Yeah yeah, and Ashton Kutcher. He at
the Peter Paul Fortress. You can see it today. There's
a plaque where.
Speaker 3: It's it's him.
Speaker 4: It's a bronze plaque where it's got Ashton Cooker Kutcher
and his trucker hat, punking death Dayevski but so so
right when he was about to be executed by the
firing squad, or so he thought. The basically, the news
came in that you know, he was spared, and uh,
you know, his his sentence would be commuted to uh
service in the army in Siberia.
Speaker 3: And and that's where he went.
Speaker 4: To a place to Omsk, I believe, and uh so
he he served several years in Siberia, and uh, you
know was writing but that that that execution had a
had a tremendous effect on Dostayevsky psyche and you know,
he was he was he was face to face with
death and you know, the the existential effect of that
was was you know, enormous for him, and that kind
of impacted the rest of his life as well.
Speaker 2: And would you say this is sort of a defining
period where it kind of turned him back towards taking
Christianity more seriously?
Speaker 3: Yes, I think so. I think it was, you know,
it was in in a way it was kind of
a Damascus moment.
Speaker 4: Where yeah, and and Dossky had never really abandoned Christianity.
He had never he never you know specifically, you know,
he never renounced Christ or and and and and he
was also a Russian patriot. But uh, but he did
ultimately see the danger of these types of you know,
nine list revolutionary ideals where they could lead.
Speaker 3: And you know, set out in his work. Ultimately, the
the the.
Speaker 4: The crowning gem of that, like his made up politics
is really his demons.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go to that next for you
guys both. Tristan, you recently did Notes from the Underground.
It's been probably ten years since I read it, so
it's not really fresh in my mind. I'd kind of
recall the the main points, and I did listen to
you and base lit analyze recover it. So and usually
you know a lot of professors, especially orthodox professors, they'll
tell you to kind of start with Notes from the
Underground if you want to get into his works. Tristan,
give us a little recap of that one and what
you found so penetrating and insightful, I guess in terms
of the human psyche and the nature of evil, why
we're drawn to evil? If you recall your notes Notes
from the Underground.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was a fantastic book. I it's
I don't even know where to start with it. I
mean it's it's a small book, right, I mean it's
like one hundred pages and it really historically it kind
of opened up the door for like a lot of
other existentialist writers. He seemed to kind of even pioneer
the the idea of the untrustworthy narrative narrator. Right, so
it's the narrator. My understanding is that the narrator is
set apart from Dostoyevsky. Right, the narrator is kind of
an anti hero. He's maybe even kind of a villain
in some ways. You know, when I read it, I
know you could see how some people would take the narrator,
who is an embittered guy. Like the first line of
the novel is, Yeah, i'm a i'm a I'm a
sick man. I'm a i'm a i'm a what's that
I'm a sick man. I'm a I'm a wicked man.
I think my liver is diseased. Yeah, it doesn't say
I like the translator. Well, something I actually wanted to
ask Mark about what translation do you think is best?
Because I actually I very much enjoyed the translation that
I read of Notes from the Underground and the first
line they translated not as a wicked man, because it
is is a nihilistic character. Right. I think in the
heavier translation. They use wicked. But he's spiteful as the word, right,
So he's he's very spiteful character. What do you think
about that opening line? How do you prefer it spiteful
or with you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, I think spiteful.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, okay, So I I read that. Uh, I
read the Stayski in Russian, but from what I hear
the wol translations are pretty good. So Volkonski v O
l k h O n s k y supposedly those
are good from what I from what I've.
Speaker 1: Read, cool cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And when I saw that it had been translated as wicked,
it kind of it all. I was kind of offended almost,
as like, why would it be wicked? This guy doesn't
believe in the very in like evil, he doesn't believe
that evil exists. Right, He's a nihilistic character, and he's
a real spie full character. And you know, it's the
first part of the novel is kind of him just
ranting to himself, but also talking to his audience and
addressing the audience and mocking the audience. So it's it's
kind of like him speaking in the mirror. It's almost
like a you know, eighteenth century vlogger, you know, and
he's addressing the haters the whole time, right, He's kind
of he's kind of battle wrapping the haters. The narrator here,
he's ripping on other authors, so you kind of see
Thoseki's world view popping through this author. Then you also
see the narrator rather, but you also see kind of
a scathing critique and a you know, like a piercing
gaze in the mirror at the you know, horrific state
of his soul. It seemed like a very contemplative, meditative
and therapeutic book Ford No Stayevski And yeah, I mean,
as far as you know the themes of the book,
there's so much going on here.
Speaker 2: I mean, well, one thing that I recall him me, yes,
if you if you got this, and if I remember right,
is that the writer isn't he kind of like a
middle low class clerk guy who's kind of very petty
and very He's reflecting on humans and human nature, and
one thing that comes up is the question of why
if mankind's problem is just a lack of knowledge or IQ,
then he begins to reflect upon the pleasure that certain
people have in just causing other people pain, and so
it doesn't even mentioned. You know, he says, Cleopatra, she
got great pleasure out of you know, poking her servants
with you know, pokers or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yo, using golden yeah, like golden pins in the
breasts of her servants.
Speaker 2: And the reason that, yeah, what I want to ask
you is that the reason this matters is because, pretty
consistently in his works he's critiquing a lot of Western
Enlightenment ideas, and here he seems to be saying that
he has an insight into human nature. He or that
humans don't just operate on the basis of knowledge or facts. Otherwise,
why would you have an evil genius? Right? I mean,
if all humans needed was the right education, external stimuli,
and so forth, then it would we wouldn't have this
problem of people who are just inherently devious and malicious,
especially if they're highly intelligence.
Speaker 1: Destroys the idea of utilitarianism. Everybody's just if everyone just
acted in their own enlightened self interest, then we would
have this perfect utopia. And you know, he uses this
the metaphor of like the Crystal Palace, and he saw
the Crystal Palace, which was this you know, art exhibit
in I think London and eighteen eighteen fifties, I believe
marked you you know what year that was, And.
Speaker 4: See I thought it was eighteen sixty something, but I
could be wrong.
Speaker 3: I can't. Yeah, well, I mean I think I'm wrong,
but it was eighteen I thought it was eighteen sixty eight,
but it might.
Speaker 1: Have been because it was it was he was allowed
to go there was after his exile in Siberia, and
he actually did visit that place. And there's a letter
in the version I've got. There's a great letter after
Notes from the Underground. There's a letter to his brother,
and it's not a part of the novel, but there's
a letter to his brother and he's writing about the
Crystal Palace and what he saw in the experience of
the Crystal Palace. He described it as the Tower of Babel.
He described it as a demonic, giant machine that he
felt and wanted to consume him. And he felt this
awe at this giant structure, which was a you know,
palace made of steel and crystal, and he he thought
that this was horrific and one of the most terrible
things he'd ever seen. Beautiful but horrific. So you know
the idea of building this world of utopia and everybody's
enlightened self interest. He uses this. He says, well, well
why not just destroy that, you know it? Well, we'll
build this up and then we'll destroy it just to
see it destroyed. And what if man's interest is to
cause himself pain? How can you reconcile because there's no
there's no evidence that man actually does and work in
his enlightened self interest. He says, man is a is
it an ungrateful beast? He says, man should be called
the ungrateful biped basically, and that man doesn't appreciate anything
that he has and is. And he gets to this,
he really in a very eloquent way, more eloquent than
I'm you know, doing credit giving credit to it. He
he he destroys utilitarianism, the idea of everybody just working
there own enlightened self interest to build a utopia. It says,
this is never gonna happen. Man is very irrational, Man
behaves irrationally, and man is falling. So he's dealing with
these these ideas of kind of you know, man's man.
Speaker 2: He's being honest about falling man. Yeah, right, And how
the light. Yeah, the Enlightenment view of man is false. Uh,
it's based on these ideals that are completely you know,
not taking into account of the fall. So whether you
believe in the fall or not is going to condition
how you believe in man's condition, right, whether you think
he's a being that can you know, fix himself through
education or whatever, or whether he's fallen and that's why
he's so. Dostievsky is often class with Nietzsche with being
kind of the founders of existential existential crisis literature. All
will stem from this, right, everybody, Sartra, All these guys
are going to look back to these kinds of stories,
especially crime and punishment. But you guys both are I've
not read Demons yet, so you guys know a lot
more about that. And the thing that really fascinates me
is the prophetic elements, not just in Demons, but also
Grant Inquisitor chapter in Brothers Karamattsov is very prophetic. So Tristan,
let me ask you first, like, give us a little
bit of overview of that book, what it's about, and
and then we'll go over to Mark in terms of
his analysis, what what are the themes that we want
to pay attention to in Demons and what's I know
it's I know it's a lot. Because you've done two podcasts.
I want to I want to remind everybody to go
to Tristan's channel and you can, you know, see his
his Demons breakdown. But can you can you give us
a little bite sized nugget?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Thanks, thanks man, Yeah, I know, I'll do the
fun size Demons analysis. And now, I mean, it's one
of my favorite novels I've ever read, right, I mean,
if i've I've finished it. I digested it really slowly.
It's a uh, it's a big novel. I mean it's
something like maybe eight hundred pages long, and there are sections,
there are sections in here that are just, you know,
so scathing and beautiful in the critique of kind of
the same themes that he's critiquing and Notes from the
Underground a certain extent, but he goes even further right,
So the character of the you know, the underground man,
the clerk in Notes from the Underground, he's this bitter
man who you know, kind of lives in this basement
dwelling and it's constantly dwelling on all the problems in
the world and it's always everyone else's fault. But he's
just really battling with himself right now. That that that Enlightenment
rationalism that he's dealing with is expanded on in a
book that analyzes two different generations generation of the liberals,
like eighteen forties liberals.
Speaker 2: You call them the eighteen hundreds boomers, didn't you.
Speaker 1: The eighteen hundreds boomers? Right, So you've got you've got
a generation of Jordan Peterson's raising, a generation of Baked
Alaska's right, because we got to You've got these liberals
who are raising reactionary nihilists who are just you know,
hell bends on destruction. And it's it's it's really it's
a beautifully written book. It's really funny as well, you know,
I mean, there's a serious subjects and same with Those
from the Underground. Those from the Underground is a it's
kind of a difficult read, especially the first section of
Those from the Undground is kind of hard to read.
Demons flows better. It's conversation based, it's you know a
lot of different scenes with characters discussing their worldviews, discussing
events in their lives, and it really is it's it's
a story of generational strife, generational clash, and a story
of the root of like the spirit of revolution. Really
it's it's a it's an allegory for the revolutionary spirit.
And it's a historical novel in any ways, right, because
as we're talking about in the beginning, Dostoevsky was involved
in these revolutionary circles. In the Petrzschewsky circle, there was
this like inner group and the guy there's this guy Speciev,
and Speciev was really interested in like Baboo's Conspiracy of Equals,
and he was obsessed with Barwells's book on the Jacobins.
And he had been essentially like initiated through literature and
possibly other routes, because you, I mean again, this is
a noble special Nev was a wealthy landowner, basically a
spoiled brat who never worked a day in his life,
like all revolutionaries, and raised by liberals who, well, you know,
we believe in truth, but yes, but but no, we're
a little bit of God, but.
Speaker 3: Not not that God, but.
Speaker 1: Yes, no, you know that there's their parents are these
lukewarm liberals, right, and and and the children grow up
to be full on just like demonic.
Speaker 5: Demons, and there's not and that now the book is
called Demons, and but it's so it is one of
the best books, I think, one of the best like
psychological novels that I've ever read, probably.
Speaker 1: The best psychology psychological novel I've ever read. And also
it's a it's a it's a psycho spiritual novel, right,
because the book is titled Demons.
Speaker 2: You say, are you saying it's shacko spiritual, like in
the way that old Matthew says A shacko.
Speaker 1: There's not an actual demon in you know, there's not
like a there's not like a Frank character. You know,
there's not like an actual demon in the in the
novel that all the characters are influenced by.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to say that there. Actually, when I
was reading Crime and Punishment, I felt like there was
a section where he was actually verging on saying that
either Raskalnikov or the guy who's like the m O
L E. S t E. R. Molester guy. I don't
know why I just said it, if I spilled it out,
but I think, actually, yeah, I think at one point
he actually hints like that he was possessed, like I
remember distinctly getting really kind of I was so into
the novel. I remember like like it was really affecting
me at a certain point in the story when it's like, oh,
this is like a demonically possessed guy, I think I
have a note on it. But go ahead with the.
Speaker 3: Staysky just real quick.
Speaker 4: The yeah, the wall, like the barrier between this world
and the other world is very thin, and uh, the
the like the demonic phenomena are just kind of right
below the surface. And uh, it's very ambiguous, but if
you you know, but you can you can see it,
you can sense it. And in demons it's kind of
it's it's not it's not explicit, but the the characters.
Speaker 3: Act as if they are possessed.
Speaker 4: And I think I think the the traditional, you know,
the classical orthodox Christian concept of that is that the
demons attach themselves.
Speaker 2: To the passions, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: And from there that they're able to, you know, gain
a foothold in people.
Speaker 1: And you know, and I love how he does it.
He doesn't do it in a corny way, doesn't do
it in a weird, preachy way. You know, there's there's
not a character, there's not like this single, you know,
omniscient righteous character in the book. There there are redemption.
There are kind of character arcs that have redemption and
even embracing Christ. But it's done in a way that's
not it's not corny and preachy. Really he handles it well,
it's classy, right, but yeah, the demons permeate the story,
and he'll use he used the there's a lot of
it's always like it's very subtle. But then you'll see
there are threads throughout the novel, like'll he'll use this
term their eyes flashed. That one happens a lot, his
eyes flashed, his face contorted, right, like these small contortions
or small facial expression changes.
Speaker 3: But then he's his expression is or not his face
is a mask.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love the way that he describes stuff rogue.
And then you know Pyotr Stepanovitch and his manic behavior,
and you know he's he becomes drunk on his own
perceived power. At times, you can just see him lashing
out manically, trying to get characters to do his will.
While he's telling them that they have free will, he's
he's cursing them for deviating in any way whatsoever. From
his will and his revolutionary kind of you know, conspiratorial
thing that he's trying to bring everybody into. But you know,
I highly recommend that anybody who's interested in this read
the books. It's a big one. It'll take it might
take you a month if you have, you know, a
job and stuff, but is well worth reading. It's better
better than anything on Netflix. Tell you that, Mark, or
but also check out my last two streams. They're about
a month long in actual length, so it will also
take you a month to get through those streams of
me talking about demons. But yeah, it's It's definitely one
of my favorite novels. I think the way that the
characters are developed, the nihilists coming from the liberals, and
and also the way that the conspiracy that they get
involved in works is historically accurate, hauntingly prophetic, as well
as far as like what happens later on fifty years
after it was published and in the Bolshevik Revolution.
Speaker 2: Mark, there was something that I want to ask you
that you highlighted in previous podcast, and that was the
issue of the sort of prophetic nature of the you
know Youpia being built on millions of skulls could you
comment on that that he seemed to have this dust Yes,
he's gonna have this insight into what this revolution bring about,
you know what two decades or so three days. I
don't remember how when it was written, but it was many.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he wrote it in the like eighteen seventy one
there and.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then you know the Russian Revolution, you know,
about fifty years later. So yeah, yeah, yeah, so that
that he dust Aski was absolutely prophetic. His his, Uh,
that's what's so great about this novel, Demons is that
it's it's very multi dimensional and multi layered.
Speaker 3: So you have this.
Speaker 4: Organization of revolutionaries that you know, it's it's very conspiratorial,
but it's also they go into you know, the theory
of the revolution and the implementation of their utopia and
how they're going, you know, the praxis of of their ideology,
and and it basically amounts to uh, total freedom for
the revolutionarily. So around you know ten, like one out
of ten and then for the the other nine out
of ten, complete slavery. They'll serve their matt the elite,
and they will be you know, basically automatons in a
kind of technocratic panopticon. More or less where there's you know,
complete complete surveillance.
Speaker 2: Also does it does it actually get into like those
technocratic themes a.
Speaker 4: Little bit, but he talks about totals, he talks about
total surveillance. It's the technocracy and demons is more implied
by by Sugar, the theoretician of the revolutionaries, well and
by Virkavinski the who is the he's the revolutionary son
and he he is just you know, pure Machiavelian. Everything's
based on expediency and and so it's it's kind of
this demonic rationalism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a there's explicit reference in crime and
punishment to utilitarianism and utilitarianism had you know, Bentham is
who is involved in this idea of panopticon, and that's
formative for technocracy. So I wouldn't be surprised that there
weren't allusions to that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even in a Notes from the Underground he does
mention the end of the technocracy. Says we'll have we'll
have like an algorithm that will Yeah, he says that
you know, there can be he calls.
Speaker 2: It a logger.
Speaker 1: We can we can have a logarithmic calculation that will
calculate to whatever, one hundred eleven thousand decimals, and and
everybody's whole life can be calculated before they even lived, right,
That's the first novel we talked about. That's from the Underground.
Speaker 4: Yeah, total planning, total control, and complete slavery for almost everyone.
Besides this. Uh it's and we got to keep in
money like that. Stayevsky was writing at the same time
as Nietzsche. So the there's there's also the concept here
of the the overman or the uber mensch, the superman
who has total freedom, and that that was also in
Crime and Punch.
Speaker 2: It's big yeah and Crime Punch Yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: And he he developed a further here and in Demons.
Uh so, you know, and he he's very explicit. He says,
you know, there, I think it was I think the
number was like ten million.
Speaker 3: He says, ten million heads.
Speaker 1: You know it was one hundred yea, it was one
hundred million, Yeah, one hundred million heads.
Speaker 4: We will build old paradise, wow, on these schools, you know,
so and lo and behold there was you know, the
twentieth century was you know, full of full of this
type of murder.
Speaker 3: So uh yeah, it's it's it's pretty striking.
Speaker 2: Now, is there any I don't want to you know,
I feel make you guys feel like you have to
stop talking about you know, demons. Is there anything else
that you find relevant? Again, like, I haven't read that
one yet, so you know, this is this is where
you guys can really you know, help me out here
and fill us in. I mean, are there any explicit
references to secret societies? I know that Tristan, you had
kind of mentioned that the other day and you're.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's like the whole the whole
thing is based around these circles, these circles and these
groups of five, which you know, is all reflecting kind
of the I go in my last couple of streams,
I go through and kind of show the historical references
that are implicit in the revolutionary model that's being employed
by Appel Term and stuff, Rogan and these revolutionaries in
the groups. So yeah, they openly are referencing the ideas
of the group of five, the circle and the circles
that are just a chain. He said. At one point,
he says, you know, he implies to the other people
in this group that you are part of this small
group and it's a part of a large chain, a
long rope, and there are a thousand knots in this
rope going all throughout Europe and Russia, and and we
are going to bring about this this great upheaval, and
and and even.
Speaker 2: You had said one of the characters references to Jacobins,
and so that would be a pretty direct connection to
the real aluminists.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's it's a boof II shopped. I mean,
these these people that these historical revolutionaries actually employed the
same exact methods that are being being demonstrated here, and
they had the same worldview, right, Like what Mark was
mentioning just a minute ago, He's talking about Shigo, right,
I was looking for the quote, but he you know
that it says we're gonna mister schigogiov is all too
seriously devoted to this task. And what's more, it's too modest.
I know. His book, he suggests, as a final solution
to the question, the division of mankind into two unequal parts.
One tenth is granted freedom of person and unlimited rights
over the remaining nine tenths, These must lose their person
and turn into something like a herd and an unlimited
obedience through a series of regenerations attained to a primeval innocence,
something like the primeval paradise, though by the way they
will have to work. The measures proposed by the author
for removing the will of nine tenths of mankind and
remaking them into a herd by means of a re
educating of entire generations are quite remarkable, based on natural
facts and extremely logical. One may one may disagree with
certain conclusions, but it's difficult to doubt the author's intelligence
and knowledge. So this is another character talking about shig
Yell's idea here. So, yeah, one tenth of you will
have liberty, uh, and nine tenths of you will have equality, well,
the one total right, So they're reconciling the revolutionary the
retard trinity of liberty, fraternity, and equality, which is this
is empty slogans. But those empty slogans are are really
kind of diametrically opposed those concepts, the concept of liberty
and fraternity. I'm sorry, liberty and equality just those two
those can't exist together. If you have liberty, how could
you have equality? Right, So that well, you will have
one tenth that will have liberty and rights, so over
all the other nine tents, and they'll have equality as
slaves and a herd, and they'll be re educated over generations.
Speaker 2: He says, oh, really, so it's a generational education and.
Speaker 4: He thought, yeah, he speaks specifically about that, that re education.
It's it's basically pushing degeneracy. Everyone informs one on each other,
total surveillance and uh yeah, just the just anti intellectualism,
you know.
Speaker 1: And also yeah, and also destruction of the family, and
he talks about you know, he's like, he's like, look,
everybody's people aren't going to church. Look how much people
are drinking. There's vodka everywhere. He's like, I saw a
little girl swearing at her mother the other day. And
he's like, I know it's bad. We'll stop it one day,
but we need to accelerate this now, and then we're
gonna basically, you know, we'll be the we'll be the kings.
He's like, and he even says, we'll get the Pope involved.
The Pope will be down for it. The Pope, well,
he'll he'll he'll he'll embrace this, and yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 2: All the things you're saying. The revolutionary say that.
Speaker 1: The revolutionary says we'll get the pope.
Speaker 2: Wow, because that's it.
Speaker 3: That's very interesting.
Speaker 2: Well that's what the Grand Quisitor said. Yeah, and the
Grand the Grand Inquisitor says that too, more or less.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's the same. It's the same.
Speaker 4: It's it's it's the third Temptation of Christ, where what
worldly power is offered, you know, if you bound down
to the to the rebel angel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the same.
Speaker 2: Now I'm done.
Speaker 1: And Jay, you mentioned like the idea the conspirator, conspiratorial
circles and stuff. At one point a character the liberal
Father of Pelter. His name is Stepan Trofimovic, and he's
basically he's like Jordan Peterson. He very much like Jordan Peterson.
He's this kind of bumbling liberal who's this great poet professor,
and he's always talking about how he's about to write
something great, but he's never really written anything, and he
just kind of he's not a full on nihilist. He's
not the most liberal, but he's liberal enough where he
wants to be perceived as liberal. And you know, he's
he's a great character.
Speaker 2: Does he represent classical liberalism?
Speaker 1: He very much embraces classical liberalism. And then actually he
does have a great redemption arc, so you know that's
I do compare to Jordan Peterson, but it's not in
a denigrating way.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Step On Trafimovich ends up embracing Christ in the end,
and it's a beautiful character. And anyways, he's being he's
his house gets raided. Uh, he pisses some people off
and his house gets raided and they take a bunch
of his papers and pamphlets or whatever is in his house.
And somebody comes and speaking to him and it's like,
look are you a member of a secret society? And
he goes, He's like, how do He's like, I don't know.
He goes, he goes, I don't know these days, how
could you even tell? Like so that this idea of
the secret society is all throughout the book, and then
when one character is asked about it, he he doesn't
even know if he was ever initiated a secret society.
He has to he has to really think about it.
So this kind of shows you how these things are
just to permeate the world that they that they live in,
these liberal.
Speaker 4: Sums, and it's it's it's you love it, Jay, because
it's it's highly conspiratorial.
Speaker 3: I mean it's really cool.
Speaker 4: Like you have the character of uh Virkravinsky. He the
leader of the revolutionary so uh he does stuff like.
Speaker 3: He's he's in.
Speaker 4: League with a bandit, a criminal that he uses uh
to basically carry out attacks and you know kind of
like t E R R O r uh like this
this criminal, Uh, his name is Fidya. He has he
hires him to like burn down a church and desecrate icons. Uh,
stuff like that, which just kind of reminds one of
you know, the ties between uh, these types of revolutionary
groups and intelligence services and organized crime. He also the
other the other crazy thing he does is that with
the ideologue Kato and Ktilf we got to discuss as well.
Let's discuss just to make sure because this is these
are really cool things. But Katy uh stuffgan and then
right now we're talking about Verkravinsky.
Speaker 3: But uh Verrkravinsky.
Speaker 4: Basically uses the ideologue kil who has this theory about
basically killing oneself to kill God and to basically transfigure
through through death by killing.
Speaker 3: One's own fear.
Speaker 4: But he he uses as an asset and when the
time comes, Katy takes blame for a murder that the
cell had committed and that's when so that that kind
of kicks off once and once Ky does that and
then commits suicide, that kicks off all the chaos and
that's kind of one of the signals to start the revolution.
Speaker 3: And there's even in.
Speaker 2: In so it's almost like a like a demonic version
of sacrifice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he to kill himself. They make him agree to
kill himself, but they're like, you have to. He wants
to kill himself as this you know, this act, this
ultimate act of nihilism, and that you become god like
if you are able to kill you if you kill yourself,
we all kill ourselves. We'll all become god and we'll transcend.
Uh well, we'll transcend everything and negate everything. Is this
is really weird but kind offiguration.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because because because sacrifice is going to play a
big role in uh crime punishments. Why I'm asking, but yeah,
go ahead, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: But he he wants to kill himself, right, and they
all know he wants to kill himself, and he's always
talking about it. He's always telling everybody how I'm trying
to figure out why more people don't kill themselves. This
is his his academic work is trying. He's writing a
piece on why why are more people not killing him?
Speaker 2: Well, and the existential let's take a big they'll they'll
use that quite a bit because that becomes a big
thing for.
Speaker 1: But it's kilter, like filter tells him, well, yeah, you
can kill yourself. That's your your free will. You have
to do it, and we want you to do it.
So it's like this demonic hijacking of his ultimate active
free will. But yeah, you're free to do this, you
can kill yourself. But when I say, and also I'm
gonna write, I'm going to help you write the suicide
letter so that you are exonerating all of our criminal
activity that we just engage us.
Speaker 2: So I didn't know this. I mean, this sounds like Sartra,
like just ripping this directly off, because I mean a
big part of some of the debates and discussions that
Sartra has. I think he wrote one of these weird
short stories. I think it's called The Wall, which is
a pretty crazy short story that he did, and the
whole whole point of that story is like, uh, maybe
you should just you know, kill yourself, because like isn't
that the real act of freedom? And it harkens to
what you guys are talking about here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and uh yeah, is a fascinating character and and
it's it's it's really uh that's that's like some of
the best dialogue in the book is his his you know,
kind of him delving into this notion of overcoming his
own fear of death and and the he's he's trying,
and he also wants to kill the idea of god
that torments him.
Speaker 2: Hmm, yeah, and.
Speaker 4: So and and and he can only do that by
killing himself and then becoming a god.
Speaker 3: It's just it's really no.
Speaker 2: I mean, Sartre says that very thing. I mean, Sartre
was like super blasphemous, and so I just didn't realize
that like so much of what he was, I mean,
he sounds like a character out of a Dustievsky novel.
Is what's kind of blown away.
Speaker 6: But yeah, last question, speaking of like sacrifice, you mentioned
like sacrifice and the demonic idea of sacrifice that's throughout
the novel as well, especially.
Speaker 1: In in in the climax of the novel, during the
fire right and the you know, the the symbol of
the revolutionary fire. That's kind of Promethean fire, moving from yeah,
the the icon lamps, the icon stands, and into the
houses and burning everything down to bring about this new order.
Is is like the Cli Max of the novel in
many respects. But then there's another There is another scene
where Pilter, Pilter Virkofiinski is talking to Stuff Rogan and
he's manic, and he's trying to get Stuff Rogan to
kind of come back into this revolutionary movement. Stuff Rogan
is a nihilist, but he's kind of like, man, you
guys are He seems to me not.
Speaker 4: Is above everything. He is like a he's a superman.
He's an antichrist figure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he's too cool for the nihilists. He's like, man,
you guys are you guys are faking gay? Like I'm
not getting involved in your in your revolutionary movement anywhere.
I don't care about this, not even beyond this right.
And he's just into self degradation really, and and Pelter's
trying to get him involved in this thing. And he's
telling him, look, I got all these people. I give
him ranks, and I this is how I keep them together.
And I keep them bound together, and I control them
through there uh, through the passions and through uh and
through flattery. He's telling them all the methods that he uses,
which is just this demonic play but book right and
then stuff. Rogan's like, man, you're giving me all these
all these ways that you bind them together. Yeah, that's
fine and all, but you know how you really bind
people together in a circle? And they're talking about the
group of five, right, you you you get four members
of the circle to knock off the fifth member under
the pretext that he's an informant, and then you bind
them all together with that blood and you own them
and they're your slaves. So he basically tells me, you know,
human sacrifice is the real way that you're going to
control these people. All the other stuff is just petties essentially.
Speaker 4: And that that happened, that that is carried out in
the book. And it's like it the atmosphere is that
of like a of a uh anicult ritual.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's dark.
Speaker 2: I was about to ask if there's like a that
of that kind of a theme there, like a like
a I mean the circle of five, I mean this
sounds like a magic circle and the five points of
the pentagram. I mean it seems to I mean, I
don't know, but it sounds like that's what I think
of when I hear that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he doesn't. He doesn't get explicitly a they
do even references Dostosky references yeah stuff. Rogan gets accused
by Chatau was another great character. He gets accused of
what he says. He says, this is true that you
were involved in secret societies? Is in a cult like
secret society? Is it true that you were involved in,
you know, degrading uh children And basically says, what do
you say? I think he says, were you involved in
degrading children and and involved in secret society? That was?
And also yeah, he said that would make the Marquis
de Sade blush or something like that, right, So they
reference kind of like the French.
Speaker 2: Uh well secret that there's reality to that in the
sense that a lot of people don't realize that a
lot of Marxist socialist revolutionaries, uh were into straight up
occultism and satanism. I mark, you had you did that translation?
I think, wasn't it where you talked about some of
the Bolshevik figures like gleb boke gleb boky i and
they would new eyes, white chet parties, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bodshenka. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then you know figures like Lunochowsky high up in
the Bolshevik hierarchy. Yeah, that's that's called the Bolsheviks Occult War.
You can find that on Espionage History.
Speaker 2: Ar correct.
Speaker 4: I just want to say we should talk about uh,
Stavrogan too, because Strogan and and Demons is this anti
Christ figure. And even his name it's it's Stayevsky. It's
so the origin of his name is Stavros in Greek
means cross, and then Raga in Russian are horns, so
it's the horn cross. But stav Rogan is this uh,
he's he's a he's a figure of enormous power and charm.
Like he's he's tall and handsome, he's brilliant. Ah, but
he's he's so he's he's like he is.
Speaker 3: The Nietzschean ubermensch, you know, kind of incarnate.
Speaker 4: And and he he basically practices the transvaluation of all values.
Speaker 3: And at the end that at the very end of
the novel.
Speaker 4: It it's kind of interesting how Stavrogen he atrophies because
it shows the uh kind of the creative impotence of evil,
that evil itself.
Speaker 3: Cannot create anything but only destroy.
Speaker 4: But uh stan uh is there's there's a key thing
that's important about the book Demons, and I encourage everyone
to uh find it.
Speaker 3: Should be available online.
Speaker 4: There's a missing chapter from Demons, and it's it's called
I think it's in yes, and that's that's really important
to read at Tea huns Or Sturogen's confession, and I
think it was translated by Virginia Wolf back in the day.
Speaker 1: Like you should read it in sequence where it's supposed
to be in the book as well, because there's part
where it's supposed to be in the in the version
I had mark it has it in there. This is
the heavy translation, this one by Heavy.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, that's perfect. Yeah yeah, And I'm glad it's
in there. That that chapter at Tea Funds is really
important because that kind of goes into elite deviants and
uh and at the same time, so it kind of
examines that from a conspiratorial angle to some extent of
you know, basically, I'm gonna h s e x Hulie
hurting this prepubescent girl because he can because he he
wants to, just because that's, uh, that's what he wills.
And he decided, you know, that's just that's that's that.
Speaker 3: Was the force of his self will. He decided to
do that.
Speaker 4: And that girl then later committed to suicide.
Speaker 3: She hung herself.
Speaker 4: And he goes and he confesses about this to this monk.
He tells the monk, you know what he did, but
he he can't. He doesn't have any repentance in him.
He doesn't he's not actually sorry for it. He just
wants to say it, but he can't muster any spiritual
strength to to actually repent.
Speaker 2: Why does he why does he want to go confess
that to the elder? What's the purpose?
Speaker 3: It's not really clear.
Speaker 4: It may just be, you know, pride, maybe it's maybe
there's some there may be some pangs of conscience in him,
but he can't bring himself to repent.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I took it as that like he like he
had this part of him that wanted to repent. But
then Tikhon calls him out and shows him how it
was basically vainglory and pride and he and how he
even tells him like the because he has a letter.
He didn't just he didn't speak it. He goes, He says,
there's something you really want to get off your chest,
and I feel it, and he basically throws the letter out,
says read it, don't say anything till you're done reading it,
then say everything. And Tikan tells him is like, this
is this could be the most Christian act that you
could do, but only if it's coming from UH. It
was like from a real Christian intention movie, essentially tells him,
and he he calls him out and says, this is vanglorious.
And even the way you wrote it, it's like you're
trying to dazzle the audience. It seems like you're this,
you know, brilliant rhetorician.
Speaker 2: And well that's a similar thing that's going to come
up here with the abuse of younger people. That will
be a big theme in UH Crime and Punishment too.
But anything you guys want to leave us with in
terms of demons before we talk a little bit about
crime and punishment.
Speaker 1: Hey, well, I just want to ask Mark Uh, what
have you read a lot of his letters, because there
was a letter in the book in the in like
the appendix of notes to the Underground Notes from the Underground,
and it's a letter to Dostoevski's brother, and he's complaining
about the censors and he basically calls them swine and says,
you know, they allowed me to, uh, you know, to
to feign blasphemy throughout this novel. And then the one
part where I talk about Christ and redemption they wanted
to remove that. Why do you think they removed the
at Teakons chapter? Because when I read that, it was like,
there's nothing it's it's vile what the character did, but
it's written, it's not it's not very It's not written
in a disgusting way. It's a disgusting act that he
describes having done, but it's done in a tasteful way.
I mean, I feel like Schernishevsky's not cherish. What's that
the book by what is to be done?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: I feel I feel like there's more pornographic stuff and
like what is to be done? Then? And way more
vile stuff being published. Do you think there was like
the sensors were maybe because dost ask he said in
this letter, is like, what what are these sensors are?
They are they working against the government? Are they are
these subversives, Like, why do you think they remove at
teacons because it's a beautiful chapter.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's an amazing chapter. I mean that
that makes the story complete. I think I just think
there were blockheads. I honestly, I think the censors were
just dummies who were, you know, not not terribly cultured
and and couldn't you know, and just kind of had
this shallow, kind of a shallow sense of moral scandal
that you know at the time, you know, like the
eighteen seventies, they weren't really they just saw it as
as something scandalous, right that is Oh no, no, that's
just that goes over the line, and you know.
Speaker 3: Just decided to excize that, you know.
Speaker 4: The the circumstances without really looking deeper into the you know,
the full import of the story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of my take.
Speaker 4: I've read I have read some of his letters, but
more of his more of like his you know, political
type stuff about uh, you know, culture and you know,
geopolitics at the time. Yeah, like you know, kind of
the slavophile type of thinking that he became a big proponent.
Speaker 2: Enough, let's talk about a little bit about crime and
punishment because I think crime punishment for whatever reason is
you know, consider the most famous Russian novel I guess
the most probably one of the most famous novels last century. Clearly. Uh.
He really shows his genius there in terms of probing
the depths of the human psychic psyche. And this is uh.
I had one last question for you guys, because a
big theme in crime and punishment is redemption. And I
was just curious if we find Christian redemption in Demons.
Yes we do, Yeah, I think, I think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, yeah, absolutely. I mean as step On's Stepan Trofimovich,
that character has you know, the eighteen hundreds boomer Jordan
Peterson character has a great redemption arc and it's done
in a way that's tasteful and not preachy and obnoxious,
and actually it's the progression of his repentance. It's both
funny but then it's also there's like a dark humor
to it, but it's poignant. It's cutting, right, he gets
it gets kind of delusional, He's like dying. It gets
delusional on this character starts. He meets this traveling gospel
salesman woman who's you know, this Orthodox woman who's selling
gospel books, and he tells her he starts to like
latch on her and try to make her his new
like sugar Mama, basically because it's just this is his
He's running through his habits. So you get this thing
of like the psychological traps and loops that people get
caught in, and the way it shows him going through
this loop but then like popping out of it. It
was really beautiful. He meets this woman and she's selling gospels,
and he's like, there must.
Speaker 2: Be something to this.
Speaker 1: I know I believe, I believe in God, but I'll
teach the peasants about this book. I know there's truth,
and I'll tell them what. I'll teach them the truth
about this book, and I'll be very respectful and I'll
and I know there's mistakes in it, but I'll teach them.
And then he goes through this phase of like dialogue.
There he is this Protestant moment, right, his delusional Protestant moment,
and then and then after that he repents even more
and he basically says, look, I've been a liar in
my whole life. Actually you know that. You know the
line in Scarface where he's like you know, even even
when I I always tell the truth, even when I lie.
That's from this book, except it's the opposite. He says,
you know, even when I I've always lied, I've always
been a liar. Even when I tell the truth, I've
been lying. You know, you know he he expresses this, uh,
this kind of Yeah, he reflects in a really deep
way on how lost he is. And then he ends up,
you know, taking the sacraments. And then before he dies
and anyways, he reconciles with characters around him. And then
there's other chateau, another character who I mean, his wife
who he was only married to for like three weeks
and she took off. She comes back to him. He
hasn't seen her in three years. She comes back to
him pregnant, right, so his wife comes back pregnant. His
wife comes back pregnant with his wife's boyfriend's baby, and
and he's just he goes through this interesting character arc
as well. So, yeah, there's a beautiful redemption character arc
for several characters, at least two.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that the more I think about it,
the Crime and Punishment is fascinating because it combines the
element of crime and punishment redemption, Christianity, orthodoxy, how one
finds alleviation from guilt in the midst of gigantic, huge
philosophical zeitgeist, spirit of the time, problems and issues that
are coming up, philosophies, revolutionary philosophy, communism, mutilitarianism, all these
things come up in Crime and Punishment as well. And
we have did I say detective novel. It's like a
detective novel that's also a Christian redemptive thing. It's weird,
it's like all these different elements. I'm not trying to
reduce it to like a detective novel. But we we
have a character that the detective Perferia Profurya I think
is his name, and the story is basically this young
guy who clearly is in some way, you know, Dostievsky
in the period of his life when he was, as
we talked about earlier, the young idealistic, nihilistic revolutionary who
although as Mark said, Dostievsky wasn't himself atheist, this figure,
this young nihilistic character, is an atheist for a while.
He's this atheistic college guy I think it's a former
law student, and he's kind of just living in poverty
and kind of just like being this lazy guy. And
he hears he hears this. I think he comes from
a noble family for whatever reason, I don't remember. He's
kind of living in poverty. But he overhears this conversation
in a bar and he it's a discussion of great
men and who are the great men of history? And
Napoleon comes up, and so he decides, as he's he
from his atheistic perspective, it's like, well, if all I
have is this life, then the best thing that I
could hope for is to become a great man, to
become a man of history, a world historical figure. And
he really he rationalizes that those figures were murderers, right,
I mean, Napoleon goes into war, there are millions of
people dead, and he comes to this realization that the
man of history is above morals. He's not bound by
the morality of the common vulgar herb. This is straight
out of Nietzschet, right. This is the idea that the
uber minsh beyond good and evil. He doesn't. He's not
subject to the rules that everyone else is subject to.
And Raskolnikov, this character of the main character, he kind
of he kind of says, well, if that's what it takes,
then I need to like own that, right. I need
to own the idea of that's what it is to
be a great man and to act such that I
am above morals. And he hatches this plot that he says,
in order to do it, I need to find the
worst people, right, and that way it would be more
justified if I kill them. And so he hatches this
plot to murder this woman who owns like a pawn shop,
and he thinks that she's just totally lecherous and she,
you know, basically rips off the poor, and he's like, well,
it's it's justified. I'm gonna kill her means the ends,
just by the means, and then I will, you know,
begin my I'll have money to then work towards my
projects of becoming this great Napoleonic man. And of course
that doesn't go very well because he the daughter of
the pawnbroker woman comes home and then he has to
kill her. So he's this axe murder right. And at
the same time, I'm not not going to go into
all the other characters of his sister and stuff like that,
but basically the story revolves around his burdened, he's burden
of guilt for all this for most of the novel,
and he befriends his character who represents redemption to him, Sonya,
who is also a prostitute that comes out of she
lives in poverty. And this is relevant to the story
of Docievsky in prison because one thing that like literary
critics and historians will bring up, is that when Docievsky
was in prison, he was exposed to the extremes of society,
revolutionaries and intellectuals that had been put there, who were
you know, very high iq and sophisticated, as well as
petty crooks. And one thing that he seemed to latch
onto is the idea that the more simple, middle class, peasant,
petty crook people were able to find redemption through confession
and through Christianity to Orthodoxy because they had a way,
they had a mechanism to deal with their guilt, and
the atheistic rationalists intellectuals that were put into the prison
camps could never grap they could never find a way
out of the prison of guilt. So the majority of
this novel is about finding salvation from the prison of guilt,
and so Raskolnikov doesn't realize that when he commits this
heinous action, he's going to have to deal with it
for the rest of the novel until he finds redemption.
And and so Sonya ends up representing the figure that
always loves him and always comes to him throughout. She's
the one that's visiting when he ends up in the
in the labor camp, and she ends up being his salvation.
He ends up going to bed with a Bible right
this this is very significant for him because he this radical,
you know, atheist, Nietzschean wanna be right uber Minch character
becomes a murderer, and he ends up at the end
of the novel when Sonia comes to visit him, that
that's the last connection that he has with love and redemption,
and she ends up converting him to Orthodoxy in a
significant serious way. There's a couple of other things I
want to mention, though I'll hand it over to you guys,
because I'm sure Mark will pull out a lot of
things that I don't recall or I'd looked over. But
remember also socialism, communism, the revolutionary ideas of the time
are present throughout this novel as well. You have the
Western ideas that are being grappled with, and even within
the character of Raskolnikov himself, he's dealing with do I
want to accept the conclusions of western rationalist, atheist man
and the nihilistic uber minch plan, or do I want
to accept the older idea of that there is a god,
there is a transcendent. I am bound by morals external
to me. I have to live up to this moral code,
and if I don't, I'm going to be burdened with
gil until I confess my sin. Right, So basically that
that's what the essence of this novel, and so he
keeps shifting back and forth at times he wants to
confess his crimes. And we can even see this is
even relevant to serial killers and the stuff that we've
been covering lately with you know, high profile crimes, elite crimes,
elite deviants. Everybody knows about the fact that killers, oftentimes
they want to go back to the scene of the crime.
They want to confess. They want to do these things
to signify and say, Okay, this was actually me. And
there's something about the human psyche that you know they
want to do that. But at the same time, right
when he's confronted by the detective and he's about to confess,
but then he's about to get off because he thinks
that the detective has figured him out, but he hasn't,
and so he's about to try to get around it
once again. And then Sonya comes in and she has
a cross, and this like you know, triggers him, and
then he finally confesses, and it's at the symbol of
the cross. If I recall that he finally confesses. He
is sentenced to eight years, but it's this lenient, you know,
penalty given what he had done. He'd murdered two people,
but he's given this lenient penalty of eight years in
the in the labor camp. And then you know, Sonya
consistently visits him in the labor camp, and that's the
final She says redemption. She's the one that shows him love.
But particularly what I was thinking of, I think in
terms of the demonic element, was that there's there's various
phases when after ron Skolnikov has committed these haus actions
that he kind of he kind of goes into these deliriums,
like he has these phases where like he he sleeps
for two or three days and he doesn't know if
he's awake or asleep, and he's in this delirium state,
and there's even a discussion of seeing ghosts right where
it's like, that's probably I think where I was getting
the idea of the demonic and and uh, Mark, you
can correct me if if I'm misremembering that. But basically
it's just that he he he is tortured by his guilt,
and he represents Western man and Western Man's atheism and nihilism,
and that westernman will never find emption until he admits
that he's wrong and that he's in a way perpetuated
and and participated in these crimes, these ideological crimes, which
are spiritual crimes, which will burden him until he finally
goes to confessions so to speak.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was that was an awesome summary. I don't
have much to add that. You're right, the like his
fever in his his his visions are the physical manifestation basically,
or the physiological psychological manifestation of his guilt on the
spiritual plane. So that you know, it's that all those
factors spiritual.
Speaker 2: I mean, is that is this him? When he's is
this him? Dostoevsky in the labor camp.
Speaker 3: There's there's an element of that. Yeah, I think I
think I think there is an element.
Speaker 2: I mean, he wasn't an atheist and he wasn't a murderer,
but but yeah, but but he did nonetheless around those
type of Yeah, it's a composite probably right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well there's this there's this concept in Dostoevsky as well.
It's like there is no private sin, right, Like in
the Tekon's chapter Tekon, Tekon says something, you know, forgive me,
and he's like for what He's just like for all things,
you know, for all my sins visit known and unknown,
which is like in the Orthodox prayers, and and Tekon
even says like there is no there's no private sin,
all our sins or everyone's sins.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's that's kind of the uh that that
goes with the notion of uh fallen man and and
the interconnectedness of uh, you know, one human being to another.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's there's a it's.
Speaker 4: It's an entire fabric of being that that you know,
that gets violated by sin.
Speaker 2: And so can you remind me who who's the guy
who is the one that causes the abuse to young people.
I'm trying to remember what.
Speaker 3: Oh uh in Crime and Punishment, it's a guy named Yeah.
Speaker 2: And what was the what was the what was the
purpose of that characters function in the novel? Okay, I
just don't recall, do you.
Speaker 4: Remember, Yeah, I'd have to go back to it's been
it's been a while since I read Crime and Punishment,
But uh, from what I remember, he was he was
just kind of, you know, this deviant, predatory type who
was looking to I think he was he had something
for's sister.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Dadia from what I remember.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so he's involved just because he's trying to
wasn't Raskolnikov from a wealthy family, but for whatever reason,
they kind of ended up broke and then.
Speaker 3: He yeah, something something. I think it had to do
with his It may have had to do with his
father's death.
Speaker 4: From when I but he was, Yeah, he was living
in this just like hole in the wall, like this
miserable little apartment or something, and and just you know,
his his mind got spinning with you know, notions of
his own greatness and and you know, the notion of
the the superman. And I mean, what or what it
wasn't It wasn't phrase that way in the novel. But
you know, basically this man.
Speaker 2: God, yeah exactly, you know, would yeah.
Speaker 4: Would carry over into of course, carry over into demons
and also into brothers kind of muzza in a way.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so he mentions master slave morality and that
like the great man is above you know, uh uh
slave morality. And and because the detective uh prophey, he
had found one of the papers the essays that and
that's what kind of got him onto got him suspicious,
was that he had found one of Raskolnikov's essays that
he wrote about how the eight man is not bound
by morals and he can kill with impunity and he
gets away with it, right, you know.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I mean, this is was it twenty years
or something? That was almost twenty years before Nietzsche was
actually writing about these three picks, right, I mean this
is eighteen sixty six, and Crime and Punishment Demons was
eighteen seventy two. It's you know, Dostoyevsky expounded on like
the uber bench concept better than and before Nietzsche.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what's what's what's awesome about that is Thatstayevsky and
Nietzscha were.
Speaker 3: I mean, Nietzsa knew of Dostoyevsky. I don't Thinktoevsky knew
of Nietscha. All right, I would have to double Checkstovsky.
Speaker 1: Died in an Aid eighteen eighty eighteen. Yeah, yeah, and
then and I mean thus bolke Zara Thrister was eighteen
eighty three.
Speaker 4: Yeah right, yeah, and so yeah, Nietzscha knew about Dostayevsky.
Speaker 3: I think you might have read Crime and Punishment.
Speaker 1: I'm not, I said, the only psychologists who could ever
teach him anything.
Speaker 4: That's yeah, there's a good yeah, yeah, exactly, he was.
He was an amazing psychologist.
Speaker 3: There's a good book. Let me. Let's see.
Speaker 4: It was called The Drama of Atheist Humanism, which is
in English and it's by a French Jesuit. It's it's actually,
it's actually a very good book that The Drama of
Atheist Humanism.
Speaker 3: Henry Dale Lubach.
Speaker 2: I think's yeah, he's a Catholic.
Speaker 4: Yeah that doesn't you know, like some of his other
views whatever. But but it was, it's very he did
a great job on on that work, and and it's
very it's very in depth. But yeah, the difference between
Dostaevsky and Nietzsche was that Nietzsche, you know, the the
abyss opened up before him, and he, you know, he
basically dove in.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: The Sayevsky went through the abyss, but he ultimately came
back up. He he reached towards Heaven, He reached towards God,
uh and and he saw that Christ was salvation, you know,
uh not, and that all the and he put in
his novels he basically, ah, he ran the theory of
the superman and.
Speaker 3: Kind of charted out as logical consequences.
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's exactly what crime and punishment is. Yeah,
there's multiple conversations about that master morality, slave morality that
you know, beyond good and evil. So I think there's
no doubt about that. That that that had to condition
a lot of Nietzsche thought that I can mark. There's
also The Idiot Should Should We? Is that a novel
that you familiar with?
Speaker 3: Yeah, uh, kind of.
Speaker 4: It's been a while since The Ith Gosh, I can't
he there's some interesting stuff in there, some slavophilic and
then some what the thing that about the Idiot that
really sticks out to me is just how.
Speaker 3: It very much resonates with contemporary events.
Speaker 4: But how Prince Mushkin he calls Europe a cemetery and
that Europe is like a cemetery and all the gravestones
meaning European civilization, and those gravestones are dear to Russians,
but it's still it's dead, and and the great culture
and civilization that had been is over.
Speaker 3: And to me, that that really.
Speaker 4: That that stuck out most of all and in the idiot,
but yeah, it's it's been a while since since that too,
So that but that that that line from instance Mushkin
about the you know, the the European cemetery and how
European civilization is basically dead, and and that that Russian
civilization would you know, its go its way and and
in Dostoyevsky's conception that would be under the banner of Christ.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing. Now, last I think we should touch
on Grand Inquisitor because, uh, you know, it's probably the
most famous sort of cut out of the novel chapter
where you have the the papal inquisitor who is doing
his uh inquisiting of Christ himself. And what's amazing about
that section is that This chapter is prophetic because it's
almost like it's charted the course of the Romancalloicy Church,
especially with the rise of the papacy and the second
millennium of Christianity, and you basically have the papacy telling
Christ more or less that we don't need you anymore.
We've basically established this kind of earthly kingdom, the Roman
Catholic Church. It will provide mankind with the three temptations
of Christ that although Christ might have been a figure
who opposed those temptations, we will give man the bread
that he desires. We will give man the things that
he desires in this life. And so whatever Christianity was
or represented is not necessary. And that's very closely connected
to the revolutionary promise in Ethos, because revolutionaries, especially the
communist Marxists ethos it comes out of even historically scholars
will admit this, you'll come a feor you know, these
the late medieval movements that were you know, communal. Thomas
Munser was a late medieval communist sectarian. I mean, most
historians will chart the rise of Illuminism, Marxism and so
forth from those medieval predecessors and those represented rejections of Orthodoxy,
and so what you get is communism seems to be
the result of deviations of orthodox Christianity, because what happens
is that people want to they lose the supernatural and
then they want to instantiate into the temporal whatever the
ideals of Christianity were. They make it a purely historical thing,
and it becomes a political movement because when you leave
the theology out, when you leave the redemptive aspect of
the theology, it ends up being this here and now
political movement. And that's what leads to so much of
the disaster. And so we can see both the critique
I think of the communist ethos in The Grand Inquisitor
as well as a prophetic critique of in my view,
the decline of the papacy, and boy is the Grand
Inquisitor chapter prophetic nowadays post Vatican Two, especially with someone
like Francis. I mean, it's like it's almost like prophecy
in my view Mark.
Speaker 1: But it does tie in with so with the chapter
in Demons, where I think it's like Pyotr bustles about
I think it was the title of the chapter, and
he's Pyotr. The the revolutionary is is in this manic,
demonic rage, and he's just telling some stuff Rogan all
about what's really going on and what he's really doing
with all these people he's manipulating, and he says, yeah,
we'll bring in the Pope. All we got to do
is get the Pope to agree with the internationalal that
that that they'll rule together, and he'll do it. He'll
definitely do it. The old retard basically basically says like
he'll this is what's going to happen. And I guess
you know, in the Grand Inquisitor, it's like a more expanded.
Speaker 2: It's like Pope is Antichrist basically, yeah, and granted and
Grand Inquisitor.
Speaker 4: Uh, that's that's you want us. Uh, you know, his
his vision, his grand vision, you know that gets laid
out that Yeah, that really is. It's a development from
uh from demons, from you know, Virkovinski, you know, ranting
about this alliance between the revolutionaries and the Vatican. Uh
and yeah, in in Grand Inquisitor, it's, uh, the the Inquisitors,
like you know, kind of runs this earthly kingdom. Uh,
this counterfeit religion is used to impose authority upon the people,
and uh it you know, it's kind of they preach,
they preach uh in this in this vision of false Christ.
And you know, men go to their graves, you know,
with this name, this name on their lips, but it
means nothing. And and it's all because in the Grand
Inquisitors in his in his plan, he wants to eliminate
suffering from the earth. But in order to do that,
he has to kill off spiritual freedom. He has to
you know, he has to basically strangle uh internal freedom
within each uh person.
Speaker 2: So would that imply that free will has to be
gotten rid of for utopia to come? But this is
like merchant Russell right, I mean.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, absolutely, for equality, you must kill liberty, sacrifice
liberty so you can get equality, or sacrifice quality so
you get liberty. It's like the French revolutionary ideals being
diametrically opposed to each other, kind of embodied there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, total total slavery in order to get total freedom.
Speaker 4: You know, that's that's the the dialectic. And yeah, with
with Grand Inquisitor, there's there's an it really does. It
reaches again into this uh you know kind of religion
of Antichrist uh and in a system of control over
men's souls where they have forfeited their spiritual freedom for
earthly happiness, right, for foreign you know, a perfect earthly.
Speaker 3: Kingdom, right, you know where Christ said my kingdom is
not of this world.
Speaker 2: Isn't there a discussion in that section too, where it's like, well,
you know in the Gospels there when I think it's
John six, when you have the discussion of the Manna
from heaven and it says something like the multitudes followed him,
but it's implied that they were just there to get
a free meal. And isn't there something like that reference
in the Grand Inquizor's like, I mean, all we have
to do is just feed them basically, right, So yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah he specifically you know it says like
you know, bread and circus.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right, and that we will we.
Speaker 4: Will basically will impress them with mystery and authority, you know,
like that, uh, we'll have this charisma, you know.
Speaker 2: And is that is that you said it's the vision
of a certain character. Is he? Is he a revolutionary
sort of socialist guy?
Speaker 3: Uh, he's an intellectual.
Speaker 4: He's an intellectual and uh, he's dealing with the problem
of theodicy, you know, the problem of suffering, and how
could God allow, you know, a little girl to be hurt,
you know, by her parents or something like that.
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, just awful.
Speaker 4: Just think of the most awful thing, you know, and
it's usually involving a child, you know, and how could
how could God allow that?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 4: And so in response, you know, he he composes the
the poem of the Grand Inquisitor, and it's you know,
it's kind of a feverish vision vision. But also just
going back that Yvonne Karamazov also has these bouts of
fever and uh he he sees the devil appears before
him too, and it's in again. Dostoyevsky is very good
and being ambiguous as to whether or not it's actually
just you know, purely a product of you know, his
psyche or is this something from the spiritual realm uh
And and so he kind of leaves it to you
to decide. But you know, for those who uh, you know,
try to you know, have some spiritual discernment, I mean
it fits.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it all comes to mind is you're
talking about the bread and circuses idea, right, like you know,
promising people the utopia just kinda harken him back to
the prophetic nature of Dostoevsky's books and his writing. I mean,
he's he's he's one of the most brilliant philosophers ever.
You know, he really is, and is the way that
he portrays his philosophy as it's allegorical, which makes it
even more piercing.
Speaker 2: To the soul.
Speaker 1: And but he he's prophetic, man, I mean he this idea,
you know, the bread and circus is what is it
that the Bolsheviks promised? They promised bread and land. And
how did they get people to uh to desire this, Well,
they helped to starve them first of all, I mean
they created uh, bread shortages in Petrograd leading up to
the February Revolution. The revolutionary not not not just the Bolsheviks,
but the revolutionaries created this perceived food shortage and acceleration. Yeah,
bread and land. So the the idea of the accelerationists.
This is in demons as well, right with your Pyotur
and them saying, well, we're gonna we're gonna accelerate degeneracy,
We're going to break down the family, We're gonna we're
gonna bring about all sorts of I forget what he
calls it. He uses this word it was it wasn't degenerousy,
werena bring about all sorts of chaos, debauchery, that's the
word debauchery. And and so that's he prophesied exactly what
was going to happen in the Bolshevik Revolution. But it's
not like he was just looking into the future. He
had also clearly had been connected to this lineage of
revolution utionaries that were learning from the methods of the
French Revolution, because you know, there's this kind of reflective
thing that happened in the Bolshevik Revolution that was just
a mirror of what happened in the French Revolution. And
look what's happening now right Look at the city's being
burned down all around the in the west, all sorts
of chaos and debauchery, the defilement of children, uh, the
the the open blasphemy, the destruction of holy places. I mean,
this is this is everywhere right now. And you know,
in Dostoevsky's book, in all of his books and all
of his novels, he's he's really showing us the mo
of the revolutionaries and ultimately the mo of the the
other side of spiritual warfare of the demonic, right, Yeah,
he doesn't just show that, he shows the redemption as well,
which is.
Speaker 2: Great, excellent. Yeah, yeah, Marc. Is there any other books
that you would because I think that, uh, that's kind
of the extent that Tristan and I had exposure to
Tod and I think you've had more. So is there
any other areas that you think we should look into
other than the text that we've covered tonight.
Speaker 3: Let's see, well, you know, for for good English.
Speaker 4: My favorite English language books on Dosaevsky are like I
mentioned before, Nicholas vert if b E R d y
uh A e v Uh he's got a he's got
a great book Onstaevsky. And then uh there's also he's
been translated into English too. There's a he's it's like,
you know, kind of uh philosophy in Dostoyevsky.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: This a writer named Konstantine so Constantine Matchulski ms C
h U L s k Y and his work should
be available in English and it's.
Speaker 3: An amazing Uh.
Speaker 4: He's got an amazing book, uh, like you know that
covers each of Dostoyevsky's major works and all the uh
philosophical metaphysical religious dimensions of of of you know, Dostoyevsky's worldview,
and you know, even the characters and the books and
what they what they signify, what they represent.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's awesome. So yeah, I recommend that, Oh.
Speaker 2: We'll save it for maybe a future discussion or podcast.
That you had translated a two part essay on Dustiskin platonism. Uh.
I put that into the chat for everybody there. There's
the part one. You can find the part too there
as well. But that might be good for a future
discussion as well, because I read that back when you
posted it, but I'd have to go back and sort
of refresh myself on that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, and that comes from a book by a
guy named but Chinian, this Russian.
Speaker 3: He's a Russian scholar.
Speaker 4: Uh. And he's he's excellent as well, and I'll have
to translate some more of his stuff. Like he's he
wrote this book called Dostoyevsky The Metaphysics of Crime.
Speaker 3: And yeah, there's there's a lot in there. It's it's like,
you know, it's it's a it looks.
Speaker 4: Like a small book, but it's like four hundred pages
and it's it's it's dense and and uh very well written.
Speaker 3: And you know, it has lots of insights.
Speaker 2: Could you could you get around could you give us
a little because I know we see that in Crime
and Punishment and probably in Demons as well. But what's
what's his take on crime and what what's what's the
criminal psychology element here? Which is fascinating that's a whole
other domain.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well that that's the thing is that in
Dostoyevsky's work, he's not only like like Tristan said, he's
a philosopher, he's a metaphysician through allegory. He's also a
an excellent uh psychologist, and and understands the criminal mind.
Speaker 3: Brilliantly in a lot of ways.
Speaker 4: I mean, he you know, he did he did some time,
you know, and he was he uh so he he
he met plenty of hardened criminals and criminals of different types,
you know, including you know, not not just bandits, but
you know, uh you know, ideological you know, political revolutionary types.
So uh he you know, he, like Viegravinsky, is like
a you know, just classic sociopath. You know, he's he's
very glib, superficially charming, you know, uses people as objects
and his schemes. Uh, you know there there are other
like in Brothers Cut a Mazuf, there's a classic profiling
of serial killer.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The the the character Smerkov in the Brothers Caught a Masuf,
who is you know, kind of this dark figure.
Speaker 3: And he's he you'll see in the book. He's you know,
involved in this murder.
Speaker 4: But Sakov, it has all these weird he's just kind
of off. And one of the things he lets on
about is that when Sakov was a was a child,
he was he was torturing animals and killing them.
Speaker 3: And wow, and it just reminded me, reminded me of
Jim Jones, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, well Dahmer did this. Dahmer was big about,
you know, torturing animals. And I mean we see this
in Raskolnikov too. I mean he's he's sort of this
archetypal serial killer axe murder figure.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean he doesn't he doesn't kill more than two people,
but I mean it's still it's the same idea, right
of of like the thought process of yeah, the thought
thought process of a narcissist who who's saying, you know,
I have to do this to show that I'm above
you know, morality.
Speaker 4: Yeah, anyway, Yeah, so uh that that that those I
mean again, yeah, those psychological aspects of Dustayevsky and like kind.
Speaker 3: Of like he and he his his novels. That's the
other thing is a lot of them are you know,
kind of true crime ripped from the headline. That's that's
what he bases.
Speaker 4: So these are yeah, these are real circumstances that you know,
he would he would scan the newspaper, true you know,
kind of find these wild stories. You know, they eventually
make their way into his work.
Speaker 2: All right, Tristan, anything you want to leave us with
before we go to the super chats.
Speaker 1: Oh, just Demons was semi autobiographical, but it's also kind
of biographical as far as what was happening in Russia
at the time, right, Like there was that the famous
murder of these revolutionaries that killed or sacrificed another revolutionary
who they thought was a snitch or you know, an
infiltrator or something. So yeah, that's that's a really good point. No,
I mean, I would I would say just I I
really enjoy Mark's articles on Dostoevsky. So his article in
Duskisky in the third section. That's a great one when
that you'd set me Jay everything over at Soul in
the East on they ask you that I've read so
far as fantastic. I'm going to get into Brothers Karamazov
more in the next couple of weeks. I'm on like
thirty pages in on it right now, and I've read
The Grand Inquisitor a few years ago. So yeah, I
think people should check out The Demons Lectures. That did
two lectures on Demons and might do a third. I mean,
it's just it's it's such an amazing book. There's so
much there. Every character is incredibly well developed and representative
of kind of these archetypal either intellectuals or you know, reactionary.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 2: I love that he goes after the Hubris, the pride
of the you know, the intellectual strata, right, I mean
they're yeah, well he he.
Speaker 1: When he uses the word intellectual, he means like a goober,
like he sees these intellectuals delusion, foolish, yeah, delusional, pompous.
I mean, Stepan Drofimovich is a great character. He's like
a fop yeah yeah, and he he he wants to
be perceived as being literary. He wants to be perceived.
But when Dostoevsky uses the word liter he's mocking these
characters like, oh, he's a very literary man. It's like
he really means he's a long winded, self indulgent, uh,
you know, intellectual komer.
Speaker 2: Basically, well, that's what Raskolnikov had done, was write that
essay that made him, you know, a suspect and the murder,
which he did because he had written this essay talking
about how he was the uber minche and or that
we should strive to be that, you know, this man
of history or whatever that's beyond moral. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Actually he and he and Demons he mocked, uh, you know,
and novel fathers and Sons. I mean, you can see
it heavily reflected in Demons in the story of Stepan
and his Son. They they're you know, they're that the
generational divide, you know, between the old liberals and the
new upcoming generation of nihilists. So that I mean, so,
you know, Dostoyevsky, you know, kind of ohs for that,
but was also this liberal you know who kind of
you know, criticized over over criticized Russia, and uh, you know,
he makes fun of to at the end this this
author I can't remember the name his name off the
top of my head, but it's it might be like
it's something like cut comes you and it's.
Speaker 1: Not Kara's not Karamazov, Karmazeno.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: And he uh, you know, he he gives this really
like you know, there's this banquet and he gives this speech.
Speaker 1: And he's just like you know, mermaids and like it
was so dumb, it was so bad.
Speaker 3: Yeah so yeah, so and the audience.
Speaker 1: And the audience is like laughing at him and mocking him,
and they're they're basically like throwing tomatoes at this intellectu
Yeah yeah. But and then he and this is his
last speech, right, He's like this is I put it down?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Because he's going to Switzerland because he wants to
live in like the you know, this hyper bourgeois you know,
little town where the the biggest problem is fixing you know,
the the drainage pipes or something.
Speaker 1: Well, but remember how Pyotr tells him. He's talking to
Pilter and he asks him, well, when is the song
going to go down? And Pilter tells him He's like, yeah,
it'll start in February and it'll be done by October
or something like that. And he's like, okay, I got
to get out of I gotta get out of here
by then. Yeah, these cowardish Yeah it's good then, and
Pyotr mocks him. He says, like, the rats are scurrying
off the ship. Yeah, basically the intellectuals who know what's coming,
who are goading this on, right, they're cheering it on.
They're like, yeah, you should do this, but I don't
want to be involved. I don't want any blood on
my hands. But you guys are you guys are fine.
This is how some of the liberals were. And Pieltr
just is he hates him. He thinks he has nothing
for him.
Speaker 4: And same for the you know, the conservative you know,
the fake I don't know. I mean they're kind of
like akin to today's conservatives, who just are basically liberals
from five years ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, like the governor, right, the governor Volemke and
he yeah, yeah, yeah yeah he really.
Speaker 7: Olympa really agrees with Piotr but tells him you just
going too fast, right, like I agree with yeah, you go, yeah,
just slow down, you know, slow down a little we'll
have We'll have you know, you know, led drag Queen
story hour ten years from that.
Speaker 1: We don't need that now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's let's prepare for it.
Speaker 1: He's like the Fox News liberal in the book.
Speaker 2: Right, All right, let's get to the super chats. There
was a couple from a few days ago that came
in when I was inning the stream BMX nineteen sixty
six for twenty five dollars, Jay, Uh, do you and
Father Deacon ann? And I just know Father George a Quaro.
I believe that I had a brief m exchange with
him one time. I think Father Deacon knows him. I've
seen the stuff on YouTube. It's very interesting. I'll wait
for your response before I ask you about him. Cheers.
Keep up the good work in the BMX nineteen sixty
six again for twenty five dollars, Jay, is there any
chance that you would sit down in a podcast with
your other orthodox brainiacs? Well, we're doing that right now.
But we have a lot of podcasts with orthodox brainiacs,
so I'm not sure what you mean there. You said,
for example, could you do Father Deacon and an Isu
another two all in one room. I don't know if
you mean an internet room like a zoom room or
do you mean in person? It's kind of difficult to
get everybody in person. Everybody lives in different areas of
the US, so I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: Just like the smell, you know, I don't know. Not
all of us are read.
Speaker 2: And then he says, answering calls, I mean, I've had
father Deacon on a lot of the Q and A streams,
so yeah, that's always possible. Murca five dollars? Is the
American dream real or is it a syop? Maybe a
little bit of both. Can an individual really climb up
with the ladder and pull himself up by his bootstraps
to a degree? I mean I think if you work
really hard, yeah you can. People start their own business
all the time. Can you pull your bootstraps up from
poverty and become Sam Walton? I don't think so, not
without like government assistance. And I mean, you know, he
couldn't have gotten those Chinese deals with you know, without
powerful brokers arranging that for him. In my view, so
I don't think anybody just pulls himself up from poverty
into becoming Elon Musk. I don't think that's very realistic
but interesting question ginghis Khan ten dollars and he says
absolutely nothing, but thank you so much for that ten
bucks Greek groyper three dollars. What are your thoughts on Tolstoy?
I am not a fan of Tolstoy. Tolsloy was a heretic,
a weirdo. You said his orthodox philosophy. He is not Orthodox.
In fact, he was I think at one point excommunicated,
So I'm not sure where you get the idea of
these orthodox but he is not Orthodox. He was a
weird pacifist who had these kind of totally anti sex views.
So nothing about his views that are correct. Do you
have philosophical criticisms of Dusky Dostoievsky. I don't personally know
none that I can think of. Was he an opponent
of Bolshevism in his latter days? Yeah, I think we
kind of dealt with that in today's stream. He pretty
consistently shows that the philosophy that his younger revolutionary patriots
had was destructive to society and demonic. Was he actually
a Russian nationalist? I think Mark answered that by saying, yes,
he was a Russian patriot. What was his stance on monarchy.
I think eventually he came to appreciate the Russian tradition.
That would be my guest, Mark, do you want to
comment on that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was his basic stance. He was also a
big champion of you know, the peasantry and wanted the
best for all of Russia's people and in terms of
uh socioeconomic improvement. But he didn't see that as he
ultimately you know, came to refute violent revolution UH and
and did see bizarre as you know, UH an institution
that was you know, part of Russia's organic development.
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we love our Redpill Bays sponsor Chalk dot com. They're
a great company. Good guys over there. Regal Watch sixty
nine Jay, thank you very much. I wish you were
in the UK. All glory to God. Well, I have
been to the UK and it smelled like Grandma soap
and the food was not very good, but everybody was
fun and cool, so I had a lot of fun.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 2: It was a neat place. You can go watch my
lecture that I did there at Alternative View nine in
Milton Kine. It's still on the internet and it was.
It was a fun lecture. That's where I met Benny Wills.
We had a lot of fun there, hung out with
Patrick and a bunch of other people. So thank you
for the invitation. Maybe one day we'll end up back
in the UK. I don't know, but the way things
are going, it might not happen. Rachel Wilson five dollars.
Absolutely amazing. Stream guys, thank you so much. Thank you
very much, Rachel Wilson, Double Luck seven dollars and seventy
seven cents, Your dearly sincere servant. Nicholas Prasenos, President of
String of Letters, Double Luck, Hotel, train and casino. Okay, interesting,
so are you really a casino gambler man? Or is
this some kind of weird spy code. I don't know
what that was a weird super chat, but thank you
so much for that seven dollars and seventy seven, says
Orpheus five dollars and says nothing, thank you, Orpheus. Nicholas
one dollar and eleven cents, and it's again Nicholas Passingo's
president of the Double Luck hotel, train and casino. So
maybe Nicholas is just doing a little advertising there, greeg
groyper three dollars? Was Dossievsky a pacifist? Mark, No, he
was not.
Speaker 4: He uh, he had been an officer and then and
then served enlisted after after his sentence again, but he
wasn't really he He had backed, you know, later on
Russia's campaign against the Turks and the Balkans and saw
that as necessary to free the Slavic peoples, you know,
like the Serbs and the Bulgarians. Even though he also
predicted interestingly that one day, you know, that the Slavic
peoples and you know, most of them would be ungrateful
and would turn their backs to Russia, which was interesting,
not that you know, I mean, the history is complex,
but it is an interesting prediction.
Speaker 3: So was he was not a pacifist like Tolstoy.
Speaker 2: Can you explain the criticism of Catholics being proto socialists
and continuing the Roman Empire. I mean, I think that
if you listen to a lot of our Orthodox critiques,
that's what you would get in terms of the Second
Europe being a continuation of the Roman imperium, especially in
terms of the pope. I mean, Orthodoxy is you know,
synonymous you could say for many centuries with Byzantium, which
is the real Roman Empire. So what you have in
the Latin West isn't really the Roman Empire. It's actually
the Franco Papal Empire. So that would be more like
more akin to the worst pagan elements of the Roman Empire.
But the proto socialism, I think would come out of
what you see criticize. My understanding would be what you
see criticized in the Grand Inquisitor, which is the idea
of a false religion that is really just trying to
cater to people's based desires. He was vindicated about Protestantism
inevitably leading to the loss of spirituality. I don't know
what his views on Protestanism were, mart would you agree
with that?
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I think so. He Yeah, he kind of
saw Protestantism, as you know, kind of an outgrowth of
certain rationalistic elements within Latin you know, or the earlier
Latin church that kind of rebelled and ultimately carried themselves
on their logical course to oblivion.
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, double you thirteen again, two dollars cents. Nicholas
Prostino's president of the Double Luck Hotel, train and casino.
He's really got an important message for us here. Great
Greek corporate again three dollars. Sorry, I can't answer that one.
You know, that's too controversial, But I think if you
did a little researching you probably could find some more
information on that. Tenna brow giso one dollar. Would you
debate classical theists or Speczo pinesap no idea? Who Speczo
pinesep is? That doesn't sound like a real name, so
it's made up by kid. I did a almost debate
quasi debate with classical tea this years ago. I don't
know why we would need to really return to that.
So probably reach orthodox people. Well, I mean, I don't know.
I don't know what i'd say about that slow boy metaphysician.
Five dollars are very important. Part of crime and punishment
is that Raskolnikov's name means schism, interesting. So he's divided
against himself. I guess for a lot of the novel
that was I'm guessing that's what that means. Dolskevsky is
Dostoevsky is acknowledging the demystification and over scholasticization of Christianity
in the West that ultimately leads to Raskolnikov's atheism. Yes,
I think that that's pretty clear. Zach fluten three dollars.
When can we expect a book from Mark hackerd.
Speaker 3: Hey, Zach, I will get to it eventually. I would
really like to do that.
Speaker 2: So well, I'm you know, you can always come on
my website and channel and promote it, so you have
a social media network ready made for you. Oh, thank you,
Greek groper. Three dollars. Did Constantine pervert the Church? No,
that's a seven day Adventist Baptist kind of mythology. Is
the militarism of the businessing empire opposed to the original
teachings of the Church. No, I don't think so. I
think that Christ is the Lord of all areas of life,
including military. Is the Greek and Russian Church more authentically Christian? Well?
The Orthodox Church is I believe the true Church, so
that's not limited to Greek or Russian. Greek Groper one dollar,
is your in your opinion? Who are the best monarchs
in the Byzantine Empire uh and the Russian Empire. I
don't have a list. I mean, we have some saints,
so they would be the ones that are that are sainted.
I mean, you know, Zar Nicholas is sainted, so any
of the saints would be the best. I don't I
don't have a list the favorites though, great Grouper one Dollar.
I haven't watched your video on church and state. Do
you believe the Byzantine Empire at any point of history
was the ideal state on Earth? No, I don't think
there's any ideal states. I think the Byzantine double Headed
Eagle Symphony a model is the model that Divine Providence
eventually accepts in the history of the Church. There's no
ideals in history, per se. Is there another nation that
you would prefer? No, I don't have any. I'm not
a LARPer, so I'm not going to pick out, like
you know, coolest ideal states. I just don't think that
that's doesn't really make much sense.
Speaker 1: About your favorite races, JA like favorite least favorite races?
Speaker 2: Asking everyone five dollars, what is the most rewarding part
of creating content like today's stream? Basically milking money from
pay piggies. It's really the only reward. Everything for me
is just monetary fulfillment significance. Now number two would be
beating Tristan in terms of the promo code, topping him
in any monetary way. That's really the only rewards that
I'm looking for in life. That's what it all comes
down to, Tristan. Is that the most rewarding element for
you for live streams?
Speaker 1: Uh? Well, I mean subtly insulting Jay, taking out my
you know, my my insecurities, you know, venting and projecting
them on other people. I mean, it's the only thing
I can I would say, tops. It would be the
emotional abuse of my family, you know, just subtle emotional
abuse of of j Is is incredibly fulfilling.
Speaker 2: Okay, awesome, Yeah, you.
Speaker 1: Know, just by the way, the real promo code do
you guys want to see there's the real promo code
for chalk?
Speaker 2: Is that the mute Tristan? You're not really coming through
right now because we're getting there's a real like we're
getting a lot of static that maybe you know, there's
a lot of static coming through. We can't really hear
what you're saying right now, so muted muted himself. Uh
have I muted? Yeah, there's a lot of static there.
I don't know what you're talking about. Your let's we
got to move on, limited time, rushing five dollars for Mark.
Here's a question. Are Dostiowski's Dustyevsky's books more rewarding if
they are read in the original Russian or do you
think that English translations are spot on?
Speaker 3: I think the English translations from what I've seen are
pretty good.
Speaker 4: But reading in the in the original is a little
bit more rewarding because you have you have some a
little bit more cultural context, and yeah, the language flows,
so you know, you can kind of if you if
you zoom out a little bit, you get a sense
of the art even more so if you want to
study Russian by all means, do and you know, some
day you can read it in the original and it's
it's awesome, But in the you know, if if you don't,
that's okay, Like there there's still some some excellent translations
out there.
Speaker 1: How how long are you would they take take for
somebody to know, maybe be able to read something like
on the level of Dostoevsky.
Speaker 4: Do you think that I'd say probably around Oh, I
don't know, like like the novels, and you know you
have an arena binding by you because like there's he writes, right,
he writes that, you know in a certain you know,
sometimes poetic way in his words words that you're not
going to come across often. But you know, I'd say
probably like four, four or five years. You know, you
can get fluid, you know, depending on how immersed you are.
But you know, it can be like it can take
it everything here like two and a half if you're
very immersed, like three years.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you're over there, it's the best.
Speaker 4: You know, you can get fluent very quickly, but if
you're studying it academically, it can take a few years. Yeah,
and then being there is the best or just you know,
having talked to talk to every day is the best.
Speaker 1: Way to do it, if you don't mind, Like what
what about what aspects do you think we would miss?
I think you know, the actual the actual Russian? What
what gets lost in translation? If anything? Just just some.
Speaker 4: Just some work, the way there work, and the sometimes
cultural associations or cultural contexts and their their backgrounds, you know,
so that can kind of that can sometimes get lost
when it gets switched over to English. Not all the time,
but and and you know, we're not you know, the
like this, you know in the in the original, you
know this has this context or meaning. But uh, there's
there's something about language, you know, like poetry or his
art that you know, when it's in the original, it's
like it's like the fullest it's the fullest, fullest picture,
and it's a thing of beauty. I mean, so it's
kind of an esthetic. It's almost kind of an aesthetic
thing as well. But it's still it's still incredibradibally originally English.
So yeah, it's not like people who can't read it.
They're not like missing anything huge, you know, but but
it's still still it's.
Speaker 1: Still Funnykov said that he hated the translations. What was it,
the the originally translation was a constant guarded Yeah, and
so they're like not even worth reading. He said that
they're just she tries to turn everything into into like
a Steinbecker Hemingway style.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, depends on the on the translator, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that all right?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, from what I know that versions are pretty good.
Speaker 2: So I forgot that there was more to asking everyone's question.
I missed the rest of it. He's that was a joke,
by the way, about pay piggies and all that. That's
that's a song. That's my hit single. That is out
by the way. You can access my hit single.
Speaker 1: I have actual piggies that actually I have actually butcher
and eat, so those are those are my pay piggies.
And and of course I'm still jealous of data World country.
Speaker 2: Basically trade, uh you go when you go to market,
basically you take pelts and they trade him for pigs.
So he's literally talking about purchasing pigs with animals.
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is like, in a way, I do
have I get to eat my pay piggy's jay, you
only get to eat with the money that your pay piggies.
I eat my pay I drink your milkshake, eat my
pay piggies.
Speaker 2: Well my milk brings all the boys to the yard
and they're like it's better than y'all's.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: Where was that? Oh? The rest of that question was
what is the most rewarding part of creating content? Is
it researching the material, collaborating with people, engaging with slow boys,
getting pay piggies, uh, asking everyone in the stream. So
the question is to each person what they enjoy most
about collaborating with people. I would say that all of
it's fun. I mean, I mean, I really enjoy being
my own boss. That's the main thing that you know
is enjoyable For me, It's it's rewarding. I think to
you know, give people value, you know, content that they
value that helps them. Those things are very rewarding. It's
fun to work with people. It's fun to just clown
around and act like an idiot on the streams. I mean,
all of that is fun to me. That the subject material,
all this so that we cover, it's all kind of
equally you know, interesting and entertaining to me. Tristan, what
do you enjoy most about content creation on the internets?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, second that second that you know, it's
all fun. I like, I like when people actually help people,
you know, kind of it's weird, like because I've met
people and they tell me like, oh dude, you know,
like I used to be fat and lazy and you know,
it's funny like to somehow be able to help somebody
you never met. But yeah, you know, yeah, Actually in
the moment, the most enjoyment I get is actually speaking
with people like you know, Jay and Mark and you know,
people whose ideas, people who I think are are are
worth listening to, actually get talked to them, not just
listen to it. So I like that part of it.
Speaker 2: Mark. I know you're not as active in the sphere
of being an e celebrity as you once were, but
we still appreciate you, we still follow you. I think
you're still an e celebto us in our hearts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a ghost of.
Speaker 2: Let's see we got all right. Well, I appreciate that
very much. So see Liberal Arts four or five dollars.
Do you think that any key points missed or missed
when you study books like Dossievsky in and US University?
In other words, does US academic university setting miss key
points that you would get in the the spiritual themes
of the book?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, like my class where we did crime
and Punishment and grant Inquisitor was taught by a you know,
an atheist, uh Nietzschean philosophy guy who had done a
lot of lip work, so he was a really intelligent guy,
and he did bring out a lot of interesting elements
in terms of themes within crime and punishment. But you're
definitely not gonna get much to do with Orthodox or
anything like that. So you'll get a good literary critique,
but there will be gaps, I think. But I don't
know whether you would necessarily get that in any modern universities.
I mean, in other words, all modern university. He should
probably be susceptible to the same kinds of atheism and liberalism.
But uh, Mark Mike could speak to that. He might
have had classes on Doskovsky that we were exceptional. I
don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really depends on the professor.
Speaker 4: You know, you could you could be lucky, or you
could be you know, stuck with someone who's not you know,
who's missing out on the metaphysics and some issues. I had,
uh my professor who kind of introduced me to you know,
the depths of the thought. He was he's an Orthodox Christian,
you know, you know, a r Russian guy actually a
Soviet gymnist who who came over during the war, and uh,
you know, he's a brilliant guy.
Speaker 2: Was the movie Jim Kotta about him?
Speaker 3: He was actually in Jim Kotta. You know, he's the
Russian bad guy when they were fighting ninjas, you know,
in the Mountain.
Speaker 2: That's a true story.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's based on It's like Frank Duke's based
on true events.
Speaker 2: You know, that's Sport's a true story, right, Van Daman,
All right, well, thank you guys so much again. Guys.
Mark's work is h in the show description over at
both sould the East and esp Espionage History Archive dot com.
Tristan's work is over at his channel primal Lege Health.
Of course, if you sign up for rock Finn, you
can also get access to both my and Tristan's premium content,
as well as many other really hardcore deep researchers. You
got Whitney Webb, you got Richard Grove, you got everybody
over there. Now, Eddie Bravo's over there. You got Sam Tripoli,
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I'm a huge fan rock Fin. They've been really good
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to rock Fin and get that full on subscription. One
last super chat from Zach Fuyton for five dollars. Jay
and Tristana. We want to wrap battle right now now.
I'm sorry even though you give me five bucks. I've
been talking for you know, we've been going for over
two hours. I had workout to do earlier today too,
so I'm kind of worn out. I cannot immediately go
into an imp. But I put out no I put
out two single for the record, two hot singles. Tristan
has none. I put out two hot singles in the
last month. Christan has none too. They're they're they're topping
the R and B underground.
Speaker 1: It's it's interspersed throughout all these golden.
Speaker 2: You're underground that there's no there's no hits or songs.
That's how underground you are. There's like actually no content
because it's so obscure. I have two chart toppers right now,
so go listen to those again.
Speaker 1: Admit it's defeat before the rap that'll even happen.
Speaker 2: So we'll just all right, Thank you guys so much.
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