Speaker 1: Something else I wanted to talk about. And this has
been going on for I don't know, a couple of
years now, I guess, but you know, we do like
to talk about these things that are going on in
the music industry. Sometimes there is controversy and lawsuits and
things like that. We talk a lot about AI and
the effects of AI on music. But here's but this
also kind of relates to a subject that comes up
not only on this program, this particular news item, but
also that comes up on retro Spectrum Radio with Polly C.
Of course, if you don't know, I'm also Paully C's
co host on Friday nights on retro Spectrum Radio here
at WM and H. And we've done a number of
shows now that Paul is put together on that show
where we talk about plagiarism and artists suing other artists
for plagiarism. In fact, we've done a couple of episodes
entirely dedicated to led Zeppelin, the most plagiaristic Don't get
me wrong, I'm a fan, but the most plagiarism stick
band and music history. They've they even stole a song.
Not only did they steal from a lot of blues artists.
They even stole a song from Joan Bias. Yeah, it's wild.
So you know, you can go back and check those out.
And by the way, so when we're on when we
do these shows on Retrospectrum Radio, you know, we'll we'll
all kind of put our two cents in. Okay, is
this a plagiarism or or is this someone making a
false accusation? Is this particular song not plagiarized?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And I'm I'm the most lenient when it comes to that.
I'm usually the first one to say not guilty. I
don't think this particular instance is an act of plagiarism
because I just I look at it as there are
certain certain chord progressions that are just very common throughout
pop music, and certain lyrical themes of course, and lyrical
themes is gonna that's gonna play a part in what
we're about to talk about this particular lawsuit and controversy.
Certain lyrical themes that are very common, and you know, so,
so I'm the least likely to say guilty, I think
that this person committed plagiarism. I mean, there's some instances
that are just undeniable, like like when Led Zeppelin stole
all that music from those old blues artists, which they
have been sued for in some instances successfully, in some
instances not so much. But h but this one, the
particular one, and this one we have not talked about
on Retrospectrum Radio because this is something recent and we
wouldn't on that show. We wouldn't talk about something as
recent as this. But some of you may have heard,
of course about the Miley cyrus Her song Flowers being
sued by not actually by Bruno Mars directly, but by
people who own a stake in the Bruno Mars song
When I Was Your Man. And this one, this particular
instance of someone claiming copyright infringement, this particular one drives
me nuts. This one is really a reach, in my opinion.
What do you what do you think, Jenny, do do
you think this one's Yeah, this one, this one's a stretch.
So this is frivolous, now, Jenny, Jenny found something that
will give us an update on what's going on with this.
But for those who don't know about this, yeah, this
is frivolous, all right. So this is I've got an
article here from Forbes that I think is the best
explainer of what the initial lawsuit is about. Miley Cyrus
tries uh tries getting suit that claims Flowers copied a
Bruno Mars song dismissed. So this article is from last year,
but it uh, and there have been multiple attempts, by
the way to get this lawsuit thrown out. And I
think it should be thrown out because I think it's ridiculous.
But uh, you know, and I'm not you know, I
don't have any personal stake in this, by the way.
I'm not particularly a fan of either artist. I I
respect them both tremendously. Of course. Miley Cyrus is an
incredible singer and I certainly and Bruno Mars, you know,
I respect as a singer and a songwriter and whatnot.
I'm just neither of them have really put out anything
that I personally am that into, but I do. Uh,
but I respect them, of course. But here's so this
is the explainer from Forbes Okay. Attorneys representing singer Miley
Cyrus filed the motion in LA federal court to dismiss
a lawsuit claiming that her song Flowers lifts lyrics and
melodies from the twenty thirteen Bruno Mars song When I
Was Your Man, arguing the lawsuit should be tossed because
it only represents one of the songs for writers and
not Bruno Mars himself, So it's not Bruno Mars. Bruno
Mars is not the one bringing the lawsuit himself, but
it involves his song when I Was Your Man. When
I Was Your Man? Is that what it's called? Anyway,
I'm so not a fan of I don't like the
song to begin with when.
Speaker 2: I Was Your Man.
Speaker 1: Yet, I don't like the song to begin with but anyway,
So here are some key facts. Cyrus's attorneys argue the
company that filed the lawsuit, Tempo Music Investments and Investment Group,
that it has acquired the rights to various artists catalogs,
does not have standing to sue because it only owns
a portion of the rights to the song. Temple Music
previously acquired the rights to songwriter Philip Lawrence's catalog, so
he's one of the writers of the song. Cyrus's attorneys
say the Copyright Act only permits quote a legal or
beneficial owner of an exclusive copyright unquote to sue for infringement. So,
in other words, they're saying that the people bringing the lawsuit,
they have not been harmed in any way, this doesn't
affect them, and so forth. I'm kind of skipping through
this because I want to get to the part where
it explains why the suit itself is silly. Okay, So,
Cyrus's attorneys claim the two songs have quote striking differences
in melody, chords, other musical elements and words unquote, stating
the plaintiff's claim the songs share quote musical building blocks unquote,
including some chords and pitches, would not be protected by
copyright law. So, in other words, my ree, Cyrus's lawyers
are saying the two songs are really different. So you know, again,
it's a reach. To suggest that there's a claim here
of any kind is really a stretch, and we'll get
into a little bit more of that in a moment,
but okay. Forbes has reached out to Cyrus's lawyers and
Tempo Music Investments for comment. Tempo Music Investments sued Cyrus,
as well as companies that says distributed the song Flowers,
including Sony Music, Apple, Target, and Walmart, alleging copyright infringement.
The lawsuit alleged the song Flowers would not exist without
the exploitation of Mars's song. Quote. Any fan of Bruno
Mars's song When I Was Your Man knows that my
resse Virus's Flowers did not achieve all of that success
on its own unquote. The lawsuit states alleging that Flowers
lifts quote numerous melodic, harmonic and lyrical elements of When
I Was Your Man unquote. So here's the heart of
the matter. The chorus of Flowers does appear to lift
some of these statements. In the chorus of When I
Was Your Man. In Flowers and Ode to Independence, Cyrus sings, quote,
I can buy myself flowers, write my name in the sand,
talk to myself for hours, say things you don't understand.
I can take myself dancing. I can hold my own
hand unquote. In the Bruno Mars song about a man
expressing regret for failing to treat his lover well, he sings, quote,
I should have bought you flowers and held your hand,
should have gave you all my hours when I had
the chance, take you you to every party, because all
you wanted to do was dance. Unquote. Now let me
just stop here for a moment. Obviously, yes, the song,
the lyrics of the song that I mean, you could
make this argument. The lyrics of the song Flowers by
Miley Cyrus do seem to be what I would say,
And we talked about this in the car. It's a
direct response to the Bruno Mars song. Yes, that's not
copyright infringement. That is referencing somebody else's creative work, referring
to it. That's not the same thing as lifting elements
from it.
Speaker 3: If this is allowed to if this case prevails, it
changes everything. You can't talk about anybody anymore. You can't
say anybody else's name.
Speaker 1: Maybe you can't write, Maybe you can't write songs about
flowers because because Bruno Mars had a song that mentioned flowers.
Speaker 3: Artists mentioned each other in songs all the time, you know,
and play off of each other, sometimes.
Speaker 4: Good, sometimes bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's you know, like there's tons of other rappers.
Well yeah, of course, so all.
Speaker 3: Rappers will get dude who listed another rapper in their song,
because that happens a lot.
Speaker 1: There's tons of examples of this in pop history. You know,
I don't think you know when when Leonard Skinnard mentions
in Sweet Home, Alabama, you know, I hope Neil Neil
Young will remember the Southern Man. Don't need him around anyhow,
you know, A direct response to Neil Young song Southern Man,
Neil Young didn't sue them, say, oh, they they referenced
my song, I'm gonna sue them, you know, I mean.
And that was a very direct response. That was that
was clear and unambiguous. Granted it was a they had
a rivalry, but it was a friendly rivalry that there
was a lot of mutual respect. But but but but
but that's or or when uh in Surrender, when uh
a cheap trick? They actually mentioned and kiss my name,
you know in the song surrender.
Speaker 3: Well, like we were talking in the car. Tori Amos
and Trent Wesner have referenced each other in various ways
in seeing each other's song lyrics and for topics. There's
a one of Tory's songs mentions nine inch nails. But
it's it's it's in, it's in reverence of one another.
It's not even it's nothing bad. But one of the
caveats about this case that I want to point out
is that the person that is suing bought this half
of the song as part of a catalog package. They
weren't even in the picture when the song was created.
They had nothing to do with it, zero to do it. Well,
they're not a co writer, nobody.
Speaker 4: They bought the.
Speaker 3: Catalog, so now they own half the rights of this
song and they're looking for a quick, get rich quick scheme.
Speaker 4: It's scammy use of the chords.
Speaker 3: It's totally frivolous, and it should be thrown out with prejudice.
Speaker 4: In my opinion, I thought that's not what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it also says here. Cyrus released Flowers in January
twenty twenty three, and it became one of the year's
biggest hits. Flowers has been streamed more than two billion
times on Spotify and won Cyrus two Grammy Awards for
Record of the Year and Best Pop Solo Performance. When
Cyrus released Flowers, fans noticed the similarities between the two songs,
even causing When I Was Your Man to rise in streams.
Billboard reported, so it made.
Speaker 4: The money made the song more.
Speaker 1: So that actually made the song more. It made the
song it refers to more pop. And When I Was
Your Man was already a huge hit. I just know
that because I just remember hearing it a lot. But yeah,
so it actually helped. It actually helped give When I
Was Your Man a boost. So so again it's it's this,
you know, this is all very silly. Let's see bill okay,
Vanderbilt Law School again. This is from the Forbes article
Vanderbilt Law School music law professor Joseph Fishman told Billboard
Cyrus should not need to credit Mars and the other
When I Was Your Man's songwriters, despite the similar lyrics.
Even if the chorus of Flowers is deliberately a response
to Mars's song because it does not appear to sample
or interpolate the song's melodies. Quote, using one song to
issue a retort to an earlier song is not, by
itself infringement. John Mayer and Taylor Swift don't need to
cross license everything when they write songs at each other.
When I Was Your Man peaked at number one on
the Billboard Hot one hundred and twenty thirteen and earned
Mars a Grammy nomination. So that's that's where we are with.
So that's what the suit is over. And by the way,
so the songs them said, E don't sound anything alike.
I will just pull up you know what, I'll play
each of these just like to the chorus so you
can hear. Oh maybe I can even find well, sorry,
let me turn your mic back on. What's that?
Speaker 3: They're not similar, No, they're not similar. The only similarity
is the mutual reference.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: He's singing, I'm gonna buy I should have bought you flowers.
She's singing, I can buy myself flowers. It's just a
woman's response. Yeah, and I think it's a great response.
I think it's a great song. Yeah, in that regard,
In that regard, right, does it matter? But this lawsuit
is just somebody trying to get which quick oh yeah,
off of other people's work.
Speaker 1: I found something here on YouTube that kind of compares
that kind of compares them. Let's let me play this
just for for anyone who uh, you know, if you
don't know the songs, and then you can make your
own judgment here. But this is this is short, but
it's a short dot comparison.
Speaker 5: To your two time to realize we were good.
Speaker 2: We were god kind of dream that can't be.
Speaker 5: So we were right until we won't build a home
and wash it burns. I should have brought your flowers.
Lugging Bomas and flowers, run my name and sing dreams
should a gig a armor hours with the head versha
and I can hold money, I can love me better.
You can't let me take care of everybody because all
you I wanted to do us to.
Speaker 2: I can take myself Patsy again, but she's dear soon
with another move. Why do you want to leave you?
I didn't want to lie side God.
Speaker 5: Then remember I Yeah, I can love me bitter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can love me bitter you cat baby.
Speaker 1: Okay, So there you go. There's a comparison, a side
by side, the comparison to some of the parts of
each song. Yeah, completely different. I mean again, one is
referencing the other, but they're they're very different. They're they're
different in vibe and style.
Speaker 3: If you can sue from a reference like that, then
everything about music changes in every genre.
Speaker 4: Well, it's like it's it's just too much.
Speaker 1: Well, it's like the the Well you have.
Speaker 3: A sentence like that's similar to my sentence, So now
I can sue you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's uh. And again you could say the melodies.
The melodies are vaguely similar, but again there are certain
there are just certain chord progressions and melodies as well
as lyrical themes that are just they're really common. And
you know a great example of that. And and Tom Petty,
I think, had the right attitude about this. If you're
you know the song Danny California by the Chili Peppers,
not Chili Peppers, that's my favorite Chili Pepper song. I
always love that song. But when that song came out,
people notice something about it. The not in the verses,
but the chorus is exactly the same as Last Dance
with Mary Jane. Oh no, I'm sorry, not the chorus,
the verses, I have it backward. The verses are the
same as Last Dance with Mary Jane by Tom Petty. Yeah,
see exact same chord progression. It's even the same tempo,
Like you could graft one on to the other. It's
exactly the same. And somebody asked Tom Petty in an
interview some I think it was a radio DJ asked him,
or might have been in Rolling Stone, But somebody asked
him because people were noticing this. You know, are you
are you upset with the Chili Peppers? I don't know
you Are you gonna sue them for stealing your song
or something like that? And he said his response, which
I thought was perfect, he said, well, if they stole it,
they didn't steal it from me, they stole it from
who from whoever I stole it from, because that chord
progression is just very common. It's it's not it's not
an original chord, you know. He's like, I didn't write
that chord progression. Somebody somebody did. I don't know who,
but I it somewhere. Well, yeah, and he was right.
He was right to say that it's a very common
chord progression. So that so he had the right attitude
about it. But what I'm also thinking about, too is
who's the guy, oh, I forget his name now, British
guy with red hair. He's got a bunch of hits
ed Oh ed Sharon when they tried to sue ed
Sharon claiming, what's the name of that song I'll Be
Loving You? I don't know the actual name is there,
I'll be Loving You when we're seventy or something, And
I hate that song. But but they tried to sue
him saying that because it had a similar vibe to
Let's Get It On by Marvin Gay. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
it was a you know, in terms of the production
of the song. It sounded similar to let's get it
on and but he's been sued a few times too,
and he never backs down to his credit, you know,
he never settles, because again that's a that's another example
of a very frivolous lie. It's like, okay, you can
sue somebody because the vibe of the production style of
their song is similar. Wow, like that the can of
worms that would open up. So it's not right they
walk away with money. Yeah, So so it's not right.
By the way, I think, while we're at it, I
think it would be interesting. I want to see, just
quickly example of examples of songs that reference other songs,
because again, what we're talking about with the Bruno Mars
Miley Cyrus thing is you know, we gave some examples before,
like a Cheap Trick referencing Kiss or Leonard skinnerd referencing
Neil Young. Let's see, I just did a quick search.
So here's some more examples. Uh, It's My Life by
bon Jovie references for Rank Sinatra is My Way, Yes, absolutely,
thunder Road by Bruce Springsteen mentions Roy Orbison, Come Together
by The Beatles uses lyrics from Chuck berrys you Can't
Catch Me. There's some artists here who are more obscure,
like Nick Lowe. I mean, you know people who are
really into indie music. No, Nick Lowe. He has a
song called All Men Are Liars, which apparently directly references
Rick Astley's Never Going to Give You Up. That one's
kind of interesting. That's fun Yeah, that is funny. That
is funny. But yeah, so I hope. So the latest
on that you had the story? The update, There was
an update from just a few days ago. Let me
see if I can.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the basic gist of it is.
Speaker 1: That they're still trying to get it thrown out.
Speaker 3: Well they had tried, Yes, they were trying to get
it thrown out, but it was denied.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was trying to get a toss. It was denied.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's from Fox Business. This judge denies Miley Cyrus's
attempt to dismiss lawsuit comparing Flowers to Bruno Mars song.
Temple Music and Miley Cyrus in September sued Miley Cyrus
in September for similarities between the songs. Says here. A
judge denied Cyrus's attempt to throw out copyright lawsuit against
a pop star. Temple Music Investments lawsuit against Cyrus alleging
similarities between her Grammy winning song Flowers and Bruno mars
Is when I was her man will move forward after
Judge Dan D. Pregeran Pregerson rather denied her requests. Tuesday,
Fox Business can confirm Tempo Music acquired the rights to
the song after buying the catalog of Philip Lawrence, a
co author of the song. By the way, Yeah, and
it just goes on. Basically this this dismissal failed, but
we're in agreement. I think right that this this lawsuit
is silly and schemes, so frivolous lawsuit should be dismissed.
Speaker 4: Should be totally dismissed with prejudice.
Speaker 1: We will keep an eye on it going forward.