WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.199 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:20.320 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker VTK 4 00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:25.039 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 5 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:29.320 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 6 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:33.359 your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:40.439 Good Evening. 8 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:46.000 Detective Rick Jackson, a decorated LAPD detective and a key 9 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:50.359 inspiration in the development of Harry Bosch, delivers a shocking 10 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:53.799 and immersive look into the one case he could never 11 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:59.079 let go. In June nineteen ninety, Ronald Baker, straight a 12 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.600 UCLA student, was found repeatedly stabbed to death in a 13 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:08.040 tunnel near Spawn Ranch, where Charles Manson and his followers 14 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:13.359 once lived. Shortly thereafter, Detective Rick Jackson and his partner 15 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:18.599 Frank Garcia were assigned the case. Yet the facts made 16 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:21.799 no sense. Who would have a motive to kill Ron 17 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:26.560 Baker in such a grisly manner? Was the proximity to 18 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.439 the Manson ranch related to the murder? And what about 19 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.879 the pentagram pendant Ron wore around his neck? Jackson and 20 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:39.599 Garcia soon focused their investigation on Baker's two male roommates, 21 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:44.000 one black and one white. What emerges is at once 22 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:48.680 a story of confounding, betrayal, and co hearted intentions, as 23 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.519 well as a larger portrait of an unbattled Los Angeles, 24 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:56.200 a city in the grip of the Satanic panic and 25 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:00.799 grappling with questions of racial injustice and police brutality in 26 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:06.480 the wake of Rodney King. Rick Jackson, the now retired 27 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:10.639 police detective who helped inspire Michael Connolly's beloved Harry Bosch, 28 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:14.759 along with co writer Matthew McGoff, take us through the 29 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:19.120 events as he and his partner experienced them, piecing together 30 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:24.439 the truth with each emerging clue. Black Tunnel White Magic 31 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:27.520 is the true story of a murder in cold blood, 32 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:32.240 deception and betrayal, and a city at the brink, set 33 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:36.080 forth by the only man who could tell it. The 34 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:40.240 book that we're featuring this evening is Black Tunnel, White Magic, 35 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:46.080 a murder, a detective's obsession, and nineties Los Angeles on 36 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:52.120 the Brink with my special guest, retired detective and author 37 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:59.159 Rick Jackson and journalist and author Matthew McGoff. Welcome to 38 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:02.479 the program. Thank you very much for this interview Rick 39 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:04.840 Jackson and Matthew McGough. 40 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:08.960 Thank you very much, Dan, Thank you, Dan, happy to 41 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:09.319 be here. 42 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:13.439 Tell us about the genesis of this book, Matthew, how 43 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:17.120 you got involved with Rick Jackson and why you wanted 44 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:20.360 to be involved in this story. 45 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:23.439 Well, for Rick, the story obviously goes back quite a 46 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:27.319 bit further than me. It's a nineteen ninety murder case. 47 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:31.680 And I first met Rick time around twenty ten, twenty 48 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:35.080 eleven or so. At the time, he was still an 49 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:41.800 active LAPD detective working in the LAPD's Cold Case homicide unit, 50 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:47.159 and I was a reporter doing some research on a 51 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:51.960 pretty notorious LAPD cold case, but also about the cold 52 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.639 case unit itself. This was research for what became my book, 53 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:59.719 The Lazarus Files. So even though Rick wasn't directly involved 54 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:03.400 in that case, he was one of the LAPD detectives 55 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:06.199 who I interviewed and got to know while I was 56 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:11.639 doing that reporting, and we became pretty quick friends, and 57 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:13.479 I don't know, after a year or so, Rick came 58 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:16.279 to me and said that there was a story and 59 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:18.920 a case that he had worked earlier in his career 60 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:21.879 that he considered one of the most interesting cases of 61 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.959 his career, and that he always thought it would make 62 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:27.480 a good book, and he'd always dreamed of writing a book, 63 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:31.680 and would I be interested in working on a book 64 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:35.199 project about this case with him and Frankly Once he 65 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:39.480 told me the story, it's a really unusual case and story. 66 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.759 I hadn't heard of any case quite like it. But 67 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:46.680 what particularly drew me to it as I learned more 68 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:50.959 about the case was this was a really thorough, diligent 69 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:56.439 investigation that Rick and his partner Frank Garcia conducted. And Dan, 70 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:58.839 you know, because I was on your show to discuss 71 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:04.439 my previous book. Yes, that investigation was not an exemplary investigation. 72 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:07.439 So for me, the opportunity to kind of look at 73 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:10.920 the other side of the coin and tell the story 74 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:15.560 of how a murder investigation should be conducted. 75 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:16.279 And if it was. 76 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.120 Your family member, you know who is who was a 77 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:21.680 victim of a crime like this, you know what kind 78 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:24.439 of kind of investigation you would you would hope to 79 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:28.199 receive into what happened. And so it was a mix 80 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.879 of all of those things. My friendship with Rick, my 81 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.920 interest in the story, the opportunity to write about an 82 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:38.399 interesting time in the history of Los Angeles, and and 83 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:41.879 to sort of present this investigation as a case study 84 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:44.079 of how it should be done. 85 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:44.759 It. 86 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:47.360 Rick's pretty humble and maybe wouldn't describe it the same way, 87 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:48.360 but that's that's how I. 88 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:48.759 Saw it. 89 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:50.920 Now. 90 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:55.480 Matthew tell Us also there was fears of Satanism and 91 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.720 a cult in America in nineteen ninety, and you say 92 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:02.040 this is on the heels of a hoarded Satanic killings 93 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:06.120 and also including the Manson murders in nineteen sixty nine. 94 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.319 So tell us the mood in nineteen ninety regarding Satanism 95 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:11.639 and the occult in general. 96 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:15.680 Well, it's important to remember, you know, this is it's 97 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:19.800 not that long ago in terms of the passage of time, 98 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.240 but it was a different time. And in nineteen ninety 99 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:28.120 things that are part of the zeitgeist now but maybe 100 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.360 not so fresh and present, were much more present in 101 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:36.079 nineteen ninety. So I'm speaking, for instance, of the Manson 102 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:41.160 murders in the summer of nineteen sixty nine, that was 103 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:45.279 only you know, that was that was much more recent 104 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:50.439 crimes like the Nightstalker Richard Ramirez, who there were a 105 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:54.439 lot of Satanic aspects and elements of the crime spree 106 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:58.720 that Ramirez engaged in that. Again, we're very fresh in 107 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:03.399 the public's mind, and there was a great deal of 108 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:07.519 media coverage the McMartin preschool cases, another kind of vector 109 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:12.720 in all these different cases that now, in hindsight, looking 110 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:15.439 back with the benefit of a little time since then, 111 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.399 people recognize that they call it the Satanic panic because 112 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:23.680 were these really widespread fears to some degree stoked by 113 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:27.480 the media, popular culture. You can trace some of the 114 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:31.720 threads back even to the film The Exorcist. Just a 115 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:36.560 lot of fears about Satanism, satanic worship, human sacrifice, all 116 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:41.560 of these concerns that looking back it seems pretty clear 117 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:47.079 were overblown, but at the time were front and center 118 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:51.079 in terms of what people would think about and fear 119 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:54.759 when they turned on their TV and saw the local 120 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:56.879 news or even the national news. 121 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:01.680 You take us to June twenty, nineteen ninety and there's 122 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:06.199 fourteens had a railroad tunnel that is known or at 123 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:10.360 least associated with the Manson family because it's near the 124 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:14.000 Spawn movie ranch, so it's known that it's associated with 125 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:19.120 Manson and this railroad tunnel tell us Rick about the 126 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:22.079 call that they get the police get on June twenty first, 127 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:23.560 from fourteens. 128 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.279 It was actually, you know, like one point thirty in 129 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.279 the morning. These fourteens decided to kind of they didn't 130 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:32.080 want to go home. They wanted to keep having a 131 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:37.279 good time. And they were roughly sixteen to nineteen years old, 132 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:41.120 and two of the boys, the two boys rather, had 133 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:43.960 been to the tunnel before and they thought it was cool, 134 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:46.159 and they told the girls, and the girls thought it 135 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:49.960 was kind of creepy, but it sounded icing and enough 136 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.360 for them to go. And as they got closer, they 137 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:57.320 started hearing the stories about They heard that, you know, 138 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:03.759 witchcraft and different occault philosophies, and sometimes the train went 139 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:05.480 through when you were inside of the tunnel and you 140 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.240 hugged the wall and got the rush of that. So 141 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:12.279 they were all up for it. They start walking into 142 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:14.240 the tunnel and they go in, you know, and it's 143 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:17.519 pitch black. It's even pitch black during the day once 144 00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:20.360 you get it kind of curved, so the entrance is 145 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:23.200 once you get past where you can see either entrance, 146 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:26.120 it's pitch black even during the day, and you need 147 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:29.320 artificial light, which they had cigarette lighters. And they're walking 148 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:34.679 through the tunnel. Two young girls were especially afraid, but 149 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:38.279 were drawn to it, and sure enough they come upon 150 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:40.919 what turns out to be a twenty one year old 151 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:45.720 young man that has been stabbed many many times, a 152 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:49.440 lot of blood, his throat's been slit, and I almost 153 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:52.840 liken it probably too. Their reaction was probably like in 154 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:55.600 a cartoon where they jump up and they're running before 155 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:58.440 they even hit the ground again. And it terrified them. 156 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:00.519 And they didn't know if anybody he was still in 157 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:03.440 the tunnel that had done this. They just be lined 158 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:08.159 out and one of the men young men went down 159 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:11.519 and knocked on a few doors. The first door so 160 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:14.720 didn't even answer. They wouldn't even answer the door, probably 161 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:16.679 not knowing who this is in the middle of the night. 162 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:21.080 But eventually paramedics and police were called to the scene. 163 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:25.519 He was definitely already dead, had no idea on him. 164 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:29.519 He was wearing a pentagram around a twined necklace around 165 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:33.039 his neck. He was carried as an unidentified body at 166 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:36.639 John Doe number one thirty five, which is that means 167 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:40.960 one hundred and thirty fifth John Doe intake for deaths 168 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:44.919 in the calendar year so far and the local division 169 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:49.080 at that time LAPD. I think they had eighteen divisions 170 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:53.120 beyond that now, but every unit had their every division 171 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:57.720 had their own homicide unit. So initially the Devonshire Division Tectives, 172 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:02.879 which handled that part of the northwest area of Los 173 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:07.519 Angeles City. And it's up in really a pretty cool setting. 174 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.879 It's boulders, beautiful boulders, sandstone boulders, and it's almost like 175 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:14.559 I think Matt described it in the book as looking 176 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:18.279 like bedrock, kind of bedrock from the flintstones, I should say, 177 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:21.960 and he went. So they began investigating the murder of 178 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:27.519 this unidentified young man. My partner and I, Frank Garcia, 179 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:29.919 We worked out of headquarters and we worked a specialized 180 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:33.919 homicide called the Major Crime Investigation Section, and we handled 181 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:39.399 serial cases, high profile cases, particularly involved cases, and then 182 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:41.960 also helped out divisions that were very busy. So we 183 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:45.200 didn't get this eventually for a few days because some 184 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:49.240 of the circumstances that followed the discovery of the body. 185 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:55.080 June twenty. First, you write that about two hours before 186 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:59.480 the teens found the John Doe and the tunnel, that 187 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:04.600 Yale and Kay Baker got a call. Yes, and they 188 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.120 had a son named Ron and a daughter named Patty, 189 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:10.799 and both of them didn't live at home at that time. Now, 190 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:13.519 this family was not wealthy, but they were religious. And 191 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:18.000 you say that the father took the call about eleven fifty. 192 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:20.639 What was said in that call. 193 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:26.120 Basically, the message was from a mail who seemed to 194 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:32.399 be using a disguised voice, and he referred to Gail 195 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:36.519 Baker as mister Baker and said, we have your son. 196 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:42.320 We want one hundred thousand dollars. Do not call the police, 197 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:46.000 and we will be in touch a later point. Get 198 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.039 the money ready. Basically that's the message. So he's obviously shocked. 199 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:52.399 His wife was already in bed. He told his wife, 200 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:54.159 who was you know, He went in and woke her up. 201 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:56.279 He had been dozing in a chair out front, watching 202 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:00.720 the news out in the den. They immediately called their 203 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:04.600 the apartment where Ron Baker lived. He was a twenty 204 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:09.240 one UCLA student living with two friends. Where they said 205 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.360 Ron wasn't home. He had gone to Ucla to meet 206 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:16.240 with the group, a group that he was associated with, 207 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:20.639 a club kind of called the Mythtic Circle. He hadn't 208 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.159 come home yet, so mister Baker said, well, when he 209 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:27.320 comes home anytime, haven't give me a call. Mister Baker. 210 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:31.519 Because of many reasons thought it was a joke, so 211 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:35.039 they retired for the evening, and then the next day 212 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:38.799 a second call came in the next mid morning, a 213 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:42.000 second call came in from the same person and mister 214 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:44.279 Baker talked to him as well, and he repeated the 215 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:48.200 attempt to get money and said where they were holding Ron? 216 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:53.360 Baker, the investigation that you're talking about is unbeknownst to 217 00:13:54.879 --> 00:14:00.480 homicide detectives that this kidnapping and the unidentified body in 218 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:04.320 the tunnel are unrelated. How do they get to know 219 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:07.879 that these two cases are related. 220 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:12.080 Well after the second call mister Baker. Initially the first 221 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:15.840 call he made was to the roommates again and said 222 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.600 did Ron come home? And they said no, and so 223 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:21.320 he says, well, I'm going to call the police. And 224 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:27.360 what happened then is two detectives from downtown handle a 225 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:33.639 kidnappings like this ransom calls. So two downtown detectives had 226 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:37.879 no idea that to Devin Geer, homicide detectives were handling 227 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.200 the murder of a John Doe. There was no connect 228 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:42.919 up yet and this is Friday morning, so they both 229 00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:48.399 are working independent investigations kidnapping and the murder, and it 230 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:51.840 wasn't till two days later when they were making calls 231 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:55.519 around to local hospitals in the corner's office that the 232 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.240 description of the John Doe matched the description of Ron 233 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:03.320 Baker's napping and it became known that, in fact, the 234 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.360 identification was made that the John Doe was in fact 235 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.799 Ron Baker, and that's when Frank Garcia and I got 236 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:13.480 the call to take over the case, the kidnapping part 237 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.240 of it as well as the murder obviously because they 238 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.039 were connected. So that's where we come in Sunday night, 239 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.679 I think it was June twenty fourth, we had out. 240 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:24.279 The first thing we do is head to the corner's 241 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.000 office to view the body and to find out whatever 242 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:32.600 we can, and then we went to the victim's mom 243 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.720 and dad's house to make the notification, which is always 244 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:38.679 the worst of the worst things you can do as 245 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:40.639 a police detective. 246 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:46.799 Now you talk about that, Baker's two roommates were interviewed 247 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:51.559 by LAPD detective Craig Rudy, right, and they also looked 248 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.159 around Ron's room. So what did they garner from that 249 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.879 initial interview and also what did they find in Ron's 250 00:15:58.960 --> 00:15:59.840 room at that apartment. 251 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:03.559 Well, yeah, we interviewed Rudy. Once we took over the case, 252 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:06.720 we met with Rudy, talked to him and he had 253 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:09.960 been sent out there to do a crime report for 254 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:14.919 the kidnapping for ransom. On that investigation, he interviewed the 255 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:19.799 two roommates. They explained that on the night where the 256 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:24.720 incident occurred, they were going out. The two roommates were 257 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:29.120 going out drink beer and discuss Nathan. One of the 258 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.639 guys is Duncan Martinez. The other guy is Nathan Blaylock. 259 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:37.279 One white. Duncan Martinez is actually white his true name. 260 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.399 He wasn't Hispanic his true name. It was an adopted 261 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:45.480 step father's name. And then Nathan Blaylock was black. And 262 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:49.159 they were the two roommates. And they said that Ron 263 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.360 said he wanted to go to Ucla to visit and 264 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:55.480 make get together with friends to celebrate the summer soultstice. 265 00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:00.559 He was in Dewicca, which is a very tame occult 266 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:06.279 philosophy harmony and nature, you know everything, people living in 267 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:09.680 harmony with each other, and it centered on a nature 268 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:14.759 based philosophy. No Satanism or sacrifices or anything like that 269 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:16.960 at all. But he was going to get together with 270 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:19.640 some of his friends from this group called the Mystic Circle, 271 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.759 which is a registered on campus club at UCLA at 272 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:25.759 the time, and so they dropped them off at the 273 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.359 bus stop. Ron did not drive. He had bad luck 274 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:32.480 driving and decided to start taking buses everywhere, and so 275 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:34.240 they dropped them off the bus stop and then they 276 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.240 went and did their thing, and they came home about 277 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:41.359 ten thirty or so eleven o'clock and Ron wasn't back, 278 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.039 which didn't surprise them. They confirmed that mister Baker had 279 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:48.039 called about the two ransom calls, one that evening and 280 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:51.880 one the next morning. So he took the statements from them, 281 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.920 and then he went and looked in Ron's room and 282 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:57.400 he saw that it was filled with, you know, different 283 00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:02.680 posters about WICCA or you know, the United Nations flag, 284 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:06.319 and a lot of books on occult philosophies and witches 285 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:10.400 and different types of ac cult that centered around WICCA. 286 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:14.119 And that was basically it. You know, we recorded it 287 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:16.799 and submitted that report, which we eventually got. 288 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:21.079 Let's lose this as an opportunity to stop to hear 289 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:25.880 these messages. Now, Rick, how do you proceed with this? 290 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:31.000 You have this detailed step by step process that you 291 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.599 have to go through as a homicide detective, but also 292 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.640 you're very wary of all of the elements that you're 293 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.400 able to gather and learn as you progress with this investigation. 294 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:47.119 You talk first with Duncan Martinez about Ron and some 295 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:48.599 of the things that happened that night. 296 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.119 So the next day, Monday, we start the fresh case. 297 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:56.039 The night before, it was strictly the corner's office and 298 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.319 the family notification, and we didn't even talk to the 299 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:01.640 family a whole lot because there were stunned and we 300 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:05.000 knew we'd get back to him eventually to you know, 301 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:07.960 once things settled a bit and get more information, because 302 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.480 on something like this, what we needed to do is 303 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:12.519 know as much as we could about Ron, not just 304 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:16.119 from his friends, but from his family. And obviously families 305 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:20.519 don't always know the same information about people that their 306 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:24.000 close friends know, so we needed to talk to both 307 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:27.720 sides of that equation. And so we went out that 308 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:31.400 Monday afternoon and went up to the tunnel with the 309 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.880 the original detective so they could walk us through and 310 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:36.119 point out what was where and so on and so 311 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.960 forth regarding the evidence. But then we went over to 312 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:42.640 the apartment building, which is in a little area called 313 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:46.640 Van Eyes out in the San Fernando Valley and that's 314 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.759 where the three of them lived. And it was a 315 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.799 two bedroom apartment Nathan Blaylock one room. It wasn't there. 316 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:57.039 He had gone out to Riverside the day before. He 317 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:58.799 spent a couple of days with his girlfriend. Then he 318 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:02.079 was going to a pre plan family reunion in Detroit 319 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:04.880 and Duncan was there, and there were two young women 320 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.039 there that were friends of Ron, and they were, you know, frantic, 321 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.160 you know, where's Ron. It's been a couple of days. 322 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:14.039 They'd been calling friends trying to find out if anybody 323 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.480 had heard from Ron. You know, they were very stressed. 324 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:23.400 And so I interviewed the two women and Frank. At 325 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:25.839 some point no I interviewed one one of the women, 326 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.279 Frank interviewed one, and then he finished before me. So 327 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:32.079 he started talking to Duncan in a room. We separated 328 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:35.119 them all and spoke to them on their own, and 329 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:40.039 Duncan was very helpful, very gracious, gave what information he 330 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:43.000 could about Ron and what he'd been doing to try to, 331 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.880 you know, find maybe what happened or where he might be. 332 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:51.960 But there was one thing that bothered Frank that he 333 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:54.119 was told by Duncan, and it was just one of 334 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:57.160 those things that kind of like doesn't totally make sense. 335 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:03.400 And what that was was Duncan and Nathan, according to Duncan, 336 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:10.799 on Saturday morning, when he was still missing, as far 337 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:15.480 as they knew, allegedly, they had gone out to Chatsworth 338 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.920 Park where this railroad tunnel is, to look for Ron. 339 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:23.319 And Frank right away asked Duncan, well, why are you 340 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:26.000 going and he says, well, we went there because Ron 341 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:29.880 liked to go there, and we searched around and he says, well, 342 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.599 did you go up to a railroad the railroad tunnel? 343 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:35.279 And he says no, we kind of went up there, 344 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.119 but then we decided not to go in the park 345 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:38.759 was too big, and then we were going to go 346 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:41.720 to UCLA, but the UCLA campus so big, so we 347 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:44.920 just went home. Frank said to Duncan, why would you 348 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:49.160 go to a place that the victim liked to go 349 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:53.119 when he's actually being kidnapped by somebody. He's been kidnapped, 350 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:55.839 you know, kidnappers don't just take you to a place 351 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:59.640 you like to go. It just hit Frank wrong, and 352 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:03.160 Dunk and explained it away the best he could, and 353 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.960 then when Frank told me about it after that interview, 354 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:09.359 when we were driving back to downtown to go to 355 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:14.759 the station, I played the devil's advocate a bit and said, well, 356 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:16.880 you know, who knows, maybe they just were frustrated, they 357 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.240 didn't know what to do. Let's go over there and 358 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.839 just look around. You know, we're just trying to come 359 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.640 up with something to try to help. So I played 360 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.680 that way, but it still we both thought it was unusual, 361 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:33.720 but it wasn't anything directly incriminating regarding Duncan, but it 362 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:34.400 was interesting. 363 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.880 It just seemed odd because if you're a kidnapping victim, 364 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:43.039 the kidnappers don't take you places that you like to go. 365 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:45.799 You don't have a choice where they're going to take you. 366 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:50.000 So at that point in time, when Ron Baker was 367 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:54.200 a missing person, not a murder victim yet, as far 368 00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:57.480 as any of his friends would have known, it just 369 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:01.240 didn't land right that they would go looking for their 370 00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:04.839 missing friend somewhere that he'd liked to go on his 371 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:07.640 own where his body was actually found. 372 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:12.160 Get to you get to the point where Duncan has 373 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:15.640 asked to submit to a polygraph exam, and this is 374 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:20.920 an interviewer Gorely and he wants asked him some questions, 375 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:26.720 So how does Duncan fair at this polygraph? And you 376 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:31.039 also talk about Rick that even though that's inadmissible at 377 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:35.160 court at trial, that you still find it in an 378 00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:38.799 effective tool and why Yeah. 379 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:40.880 And it was a couple of weeks later when we 380 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:44.200 did other investigative stuff. It wasn't like we right there after. 381 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.119 Duncan said that one statement, Sure are other things that 382 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:51.799 bothered us that started coming into our investigation that you know, 383 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.000 like we need to eliminate these guys as being involved. 384 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:58.559 And we hadn't talked to Nathan Blaylockley. I think we 385 00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:01.160 had a short conversation on the phone, but we offered 386 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.519 Duncan a polygraph, and I just wanted to see how 387 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:06.680 partly is how is he going to react to it? 388 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:10.880 You react to being asked that? And he was very sure, 389 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:12.720 no problem when you want to do it, And so 390 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:16.279 we scheduled it. It was actually in the first few 391 00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:18.640 days of July, so we'd been into the case for 392 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:21.839 a couple of weeks. Did the gory when he came out, 393 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.240 and he's a civilian employee, he's a polygraph examiner and 394 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.839 Duncan showed up and submitted to the test. He did 395 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:36.640 four runs on the test and failed miserably in literally 396 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:42.119 every category of pertinent questions they called him. There's control 397 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:45.319 questions like what's your name? Is your name Duncan Martinez? 398 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:45.640 Yes? 399 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:45.799 No. 400 00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:48.880 Then there are the ones were you present when Ron 401 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:52.680