WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.240 Hello, It is Ryan and I was on a flight 2 00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:04.480 the other day playing one of my favorite social spin 3 00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:07.080 slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at 4 00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:08.919 the person sitting next to me, and you know what 5 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:11.720 they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, 6 00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:14.240 I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumpa 7 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:16.640 Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can 8 00:00:16.679 --> 00:00:20.519 play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. 9 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:22.879 So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to 10 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:26.199 claim you're free. Welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com 11 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:29.239 and live the Chumba lne No necessary dvoid whereab By 12 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:30.559 lost in terms of conditions eighteen plus. 13 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:34.439 With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 14 00:00:34.679 --> 00:00:38.039 Really, beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen 15 00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:38.880 the bride and groom? 16 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:41.039 Sorry? Sorry, we're here. 17 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:43.079 We were getting lucky in the limo when we lost 18 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:43.640 track of time. 19 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:47.200 No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up 20 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:48.439 quicker than a guess registered. 21 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:50.840 But in that case, I pronounce you lucky. 22 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:54.840 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Daily bonuses 23 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.600 are waiting. No purchase necessary BOID. We're prohibited by Way 24 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:00.399 eighteen plus terms and conditions applaing. See website for detail. 25 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:02.159 Loop to. 26 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.599 You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking 27 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:18.719 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 28 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:26.359 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, 29 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:30.359 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 30 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.400 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:45.879 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 32 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:49.840 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 33 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:52.920 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 34 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.599 History and the authors that have written about them. Jay 35 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.239 Tony Sarah is the epitome of countercull hero. He has 36 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.719 spent his life defending society's marginalized citizens in the courtroom. 37 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:08.960 His role in the Chu Sioux League case was depicted 38 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:12.000 in the film True Believer, and he was gained. He 39 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:16.039 has gained national prominence for his closing argument techniques. He 40 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:18.800 is a lifelong tax resister who has spent time in 41 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.400 federal prison in protest of what he perceives to be 42 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:25.599 an unjust political and legal system. Tony Sarah has been 43 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:28.800 a criminal defense attorney for over forty five years. He 44 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:31.680 has been involved with numerous high profile cases, including the 45 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:35.159 Black Panthers and the Hells Angels. He is the recipient 46 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:39.639 of numerous awards, including an ACLU Civil Liberties Award and 47 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:44.280 Lawyer of the Year from the Criminal Trier Lawyers Association. Recently, 48 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:47.360 he was incarcerated for federal taxes. He decided not to 49 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.719 offer a federal government he considers hostile to the poor, immigrants, 50 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:54.879 Native Americans, and folks who enjoy a bit of inner 51 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:59.400 transportation by means of forbidden substances. The book were featuring 52 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:02.719 this evening is word Walking the Circle Prison Chronicles with 53 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:14.919 my special guest, attorney and author Ja Tony Sarah. Good evening, 54 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.599 Tony Sarah. 55 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:21.080 Hello, this is Tony Sarah. How are you Dan? 56 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:25.520 Very good? Thank you. You just missed your your glowing introduction. 57 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:28.120 But we just basically gave us an opsis of your 58 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.000 career a little bit anyway, just a little bit, and 59 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:35.599 what this book is about, and that about your tax resistance. 60 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:40.039 So the audience takes it with what they call a 61 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:42.759 grain of salt, because I think all of these kind 62 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:48.759 of exaggerated you no salutations sometimes, you know, we're pure 63 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:55.360 HYPERBOLEA but I'm delighted that you're interviewing you know me 64 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:59.879 about the book. And it was, you know, a heartfelt 65 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:05.000 experience that actually created the opportunity right in. 66 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:08.599 Well, great, now we'll tell us just a little bit. Now, 67 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:10.719 tell us what for for those people that don't know, 68 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:15.280 what's the difference between a tax resistor and a tax evader? 69 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.519 And tell us what your you're basically your philosophy is. 70 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:23.920 What what is it about taxes that you abhore? Tell 71 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.759 us what your position is about a federal taxes? 72 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:33.000 All right? One? Tax evasion is moralterpretive. Tax evasion is 73 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:37.519 a felony. Tax evasion you know would not allow me 74 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:43.839 to continue practice, is not you know, something that stems 75 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:49.480 from what I'll call, you know, political ideology tax evasion 76 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:54.720 or tax cheaters that under report, you know, with knowledge 77 00:04:54.920 --> 00:05:02.120 their income or over you know, their deduct are not valid. 78 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:06.959 Blah blah blah. I don't do that at all. I'm 79 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:10.160 mayor missed the meeting. And one of the little you 80 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:14.959 know vignettes in the book talk about that I have 81 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:19.160 been a tax resistor. Tax resistor is one who either 82 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.879 doesn't pay or doesn't file for my maybe first twenty years, 83 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.519 I didn't file. For the next twenty years, you know, 84 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:31.839 I haven't paid. I've been prosecuted three times. Two of 85 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.839 those times I ended up in Lumpark prison camp. The 86 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:41.839 bar does not California Bar is very commassionate, very you know, 87 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:47.120 empathetic when it comes to an idealistic position. So my 88 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:54.720 position is, you know, philosophic, political, it's ideological. There has 89 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:57.879 nothing to do with cheating the government. There has nothing 90 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:02.480 to do with understating my income or overstayed my deductions. 91 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:07.879 I just fail, you know, to pay. Previously, I merely 92 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:12.920 failed to file. It's a huge difference, and I don't 93 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:14.959 like to be you know, a lot of people confuse it. 94 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:16.600 They think it's the same thing. I don't know. I'm 95 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:21.360 not a tax you no evasion. I'm not evading anything. 96 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:24.079 I'm just not god dam paying it. So what is 97 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:30.279 my view? My view on taxation is you know, you 98 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:32.519 don't know. I could write it, you know, chapters and 99 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:38.360 chapters on it. But in a nutshell, the way tax historically, 100 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:44.160 for the most part, was imposed is when like the 101 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:53.879 Romans or other you know, imperialistically oriented countries invaded and conquered, 102 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:59.959 they exacted an annual tax from the defeated, from the victim, 103 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:05.759 from the vanguished. The conquerors, you know, demanded their tribute. 104 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:08.920 And if you couldn't pay, I brought your you know, 105 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.759 your silver, you brought your gold, union, you know, brought 106 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:15.839 your son who was inducted into their army in lieu 107 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:20.519 of payment. So it's always been a relationship between victor 108 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:27.319 and vanquished oppressor and those who are oppressed translated into 109 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:34.199 public time and present, you know, public dimension now and 110 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:41.800 present time. The millionaires, the one percenters, the people that 111 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:47.759 the occupied movement is directing their energy toward the corporations, 112 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:54.800 the international corporations, the domestic corporations. They don't pay tax. 113 00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:01.839 If they, you know, can't carve some our mitch that 114 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:06.120 protects them, then they pass it on to the consumers. 115 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:10.120 We pay ultimately their tax. It is only the working 116 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:14.120 class that pays tax. It is only the poor people 117 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:18.079 who pay tax. It is only you know, the ninety 118 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:22.120 nine percent of us who oppose the one percent who 119 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:26.160 really you know, control everything in this so called democracy, 120 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:30.240 that pay the tax. Well, I'm a freeman. I'm not 121 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:33.720 you know, I haven't been conquered. I'm not going to 122 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.960 pay their tax I'm not going to support their wars. 123 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:40.320 I'm not going to support the corporations that stand behind 124 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:43.799 their wars. I'm not going to wage endless war, not 125 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.519 with my money in order you know, to become like 126 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:53.200 oil rich. So you know, it's a pervasive view. And 127 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:59.320 if US taxation as something that is, you know, placed 128 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:05.080 on a class of people who have not you know, 129 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:15.000 the political cloud or the wherewithal to resist it, and 130 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:18.759 I just symbolically have made this. I call it my 131 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:22.080 peanut principle. I've been doing it, I don't know, nearly 132 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:26.639 fifty years. Every ten years, I get prosecuted because it's 133 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.039 a misdemeanor, because there's no moral turpitude. I get suspended 134 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:34.399 while I'm doing my time three four, five, six months, 135 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:37.679 whatever it's been. But then when i'm out, I'm free 136 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:42.679 to practice. And when i'm in, when the suspensions lifted, 137 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:46.600 I'm free to practice. And therefore I practice while I'm in, 138 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.159 I practice after I get out the bar. You know, 139 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:55.440 even solicited the last time I was in Lumpock prison camp, 140 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:58.279 which you know was a couple of years ago, and 141 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:00.399 that the book came out of the experience, is that 142 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:05.039 I had there, but the bar, the California Bar, solicited 143 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:13.240 a article based on my experience there that listed areas 144 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:17.679 of reform where reform in you know, the federal prison system, 145 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:21.399 from my perspective, was required. So not only is the 146 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:25.279 bar understanding, compassionate, you know, and understands it's not mora 147 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:29.559 alterpitude than and it's a principle, they're interested in it, 148 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:33.679 and they're interested in you know, prison reform, and they 149 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:39.320 never allow articles to be written. They in the prison officials, 150 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:42.039 at least that the camp I was in. They don't 151 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.639 allow you know, needy to come in. They don't allow 152 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:48.360 photographs to be taken, they don't allow you know, interviews 153 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:51.159 to occur. It said, no, no, they don't want prisoners 154 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:56.200 writing about sometimes the horrific you know, conditions and the 155 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:00.960 from my perspective, the slave belaver that occurs there. But 156 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:04.519 the bar was so powerful that all of the rules 157 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:07.320 got swept away. Oh they were out there. They're taking 158 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:11.480 pictures of me, pictures of the facility, interviewing me. So 159 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:16.559 you know, it just shows California's beautiful. The bar, you know, 160 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:21.639 is from my prospective, fair balanced, you know, not the 161 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:27.600 constricting any of my first Amendment rights, and so what 162 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:30.039 I did while I was there last time, because now 163 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:37.039 I'm older, I was like a camp gardener, you know, 164 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:42.519 watered flowers and I wore the lawns, and I cleaned 165 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:46.840 up the debris, and I planted, you know, various cactuses, 166 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:49.679 et cetera, et cetera. But it was only about six hours. 167 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:52.600 You see, when you're older, I'm over seventy, so they 168 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:55.759 the first time I was in the garbage, oh shit, man, 169 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:00.240 you know I was assigned the garbage. I remember going 170 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:02.960 to the counselor and saying, listen, I can't help the inmates. 171 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:04.759 I couldn't do civil if you don't want me to 172 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.600 do criminal law. I need as a typewriter. You know, 173 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:09.879 I can help them with probath, and I can help 174 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.320 them with bankruptcy. And I can handle domestic relations. You know, 175 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:15.639 even though I'm a criminal law I know all of that. 176 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.559 And then the next day, job assignment Sarah garbage gardens. 177 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:23.519 But this time and I worked my ass off. But 178 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:29.120 this time, I you know, watered and contemplated and went 179 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.720 to the so called library. I read eighty novels. I 180 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:37.679 wrote two full books. I wrote poetry, I wrote you know, 181 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:41.360 what I called vignettes, and you know, the the editor 182 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:46.600 and publishers call it prison chronicles. And I, you know, 183 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:52.320 served the inmate populous, like you know, a dentist, you know, 184 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:55.720 serves too many clients. They were lined up, you know, 185 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.240 and I'm sitting out there on a bench. I'm kind 186 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.240 of interviewing them. I'm hearing their issues. I'm looking at 187 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:05.679 their appellate you know, briefs. I'm looking at the whether 188 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:09.440 or not they have habeas corpus relief. I'm going over 189 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.000 with them. You know, they're memorandums of law. I'm helping 190 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:18.080 the jail house the lawyers perfect their rits and their appeals. 191 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:20.360 It was just like lot if you lock up a 192 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.480 doctor in a hospital, a doctor who likes to practice, 193 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:27.879 a doctor, you know, who is sympathetic and identifies with 194 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.639 his patients. That's what I was. I was a lawyer 195 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:36.679 in a criminal defense lawyer in a federal prison camp, 196 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:41.519 and at a point I could practice. And you know, 197 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:44.240 it was just fabulous all the people I met and 198 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:47.120 all of the secrets that they shared, and every race 199 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:51.360 and every religion really contacted me, being open with me. 200 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:53.879 So you know, I regard it as one of the 201 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.600 like the rare moments of the My mind's sort of 202 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:02.440 like a vacation. I don't mind work. I work hard. 203 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:05.879 I worked twelve fourteen hours a day. I'm a workaholic, 204 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:10.159 you know. I'm it's all law. It's in a narrow tunnel. 205 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:14.480 The vision obviously is obscured when you're in a narrow tunnel. 206 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:16.679 So when I get out of that, and then I 207 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.919 can't go to court every day, and I can't argue, 208 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.279 you know, to a judge or a jury every day, 209 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.600 for me, it's a vacation. But I never gave up 210 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:27.200 the practice of law. And I helped everyone, you know, 211 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:30.480 to the best of my ability. And right beside that, 212 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:34.519 I wrote my ass off just your note for self medication, 213 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:39.440 and I'm just colighted that I have, you know, a 214 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.360 book that came out of that experience. And in that book, 215 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:48.720 I outline what I consider like symbolic episodes that I 216 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:54.559 either perceived or I participated in. They speak, you know, 217 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:59.360 beyond the what what I call it, the myth the 218 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:03.840 fact or that are illustrated in you know, each each 219 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:09.279 vignette or in each chronicle, because they're symbolic, because they're metaphoric, 220 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.960 but the underlying theme, the underlining theme is we need reform, 221 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.960 you know, we need change. Prison camps are unfair. Prison 222 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:21.759 camps are slave labor. As soon as I got out, 223 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:28.120 I brought against the Federal Bureau of Prisons. What's analogous 224 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.759 to a class action on behalf of them and inmates 225 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:37.519 who are incarcerated and forced into the slave labor. And 226 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.919 my request in the action, which was filed in San 227 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:44.480 Francisco Federal court, was that they be paid you know, 228 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:48.159 minimum wage seven fifty an hour instead of the twenty 229 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.360 three cents or the thirty three cents on if you 230 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:53.600 really paid big money, you're getting eighty cents an hour. 231 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:57.440 And many people, you know, and me in my first 232 00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:58.559 stint there. 233 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:01.960 They work hard, they get dirty, they get tired, they're 234 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:06.360 sweating there. It's dangerous and it's sometimes you know, it's 235 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:09.960 longer hours than it should be. And god damn it, 236 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:14.440 they're making millions off that, the prison system, you know, 237 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:20.519 in terms of these slave you know, labor camps, and 238 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:26.519 that's my verbiage. They make millions in our place alone. 239 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.039 You know, they were making steel cables, they were producing milk, 240 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.799 they were producing meat, There were cattle, there was corn. 241 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:40.519 You know, there there was a mechanical you know, uh. 242 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.720 Work and all of that benefits the prison system. And 243 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:51.960 these prison you know industries exists in every campany in 244 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.200 every federal prison that has a camp, and they're spread 245 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:58.200 throughout the United States and they're making you know, milion 246 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.279 to millions and they don't want to pay. They want, 247 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.960 you know, to give you twenty three cents and oh, 248 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:05.519 if you don't want to be there, then you can 249 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.160 go in to do a hard time. But all of 250 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:12.640 the people there, include myself, are selected one nonviolent, two 251 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.119 no escape risk, and you're dare to work. This is 252 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:18.480 a work in camp. They tell you you're not going 253 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.759 to be rehabilitated. We're not here to deter you. We're here, 254 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:27.839 you know, to punish you. And you work in this camp. 255 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:29.160 Everyone works. 256 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:34.799 So you know, for me, wouldn't it be just wouldn't 257 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:37.960 it be just you know, I mean, just to be safe. 258 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.440 The other side of this, you know a lot of 259 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.960 people that listened read True crime, would listen to shows 260 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:48.480 programs like this. It's not that everybody's completely biased, but 261 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:51.559 a lot of people know and you know yourself probably 262 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:54.359 better than anyone that a typical court case, say that 263 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.920 the person is a thief. It's not violent, but still 264 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:01.519 it costs the federal god or the state government a 265 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.240 lot of money. And incarceration costs a lot of money 266 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:07.920 for correctional officers and the security at a facility. So 267 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:10.799 some people might say, you know what, twenty three cents 268 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:14.319 an hour. There's no way I would I would advocate 269 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.599 for seven to fifty an hour because I'd be competing 270 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:19.319 with somebody that had never gotten in trouble, had never 271 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:21.559 been on side of the law, never cost the government 272 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:24.680 any money. So there is something to that, exactly. 273 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:30.759 The rationale that the Ninth Circuit Appeals utilize to affirm 274 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:35.519 a dismissal of my lawsuit, and bottom line in lay language, 275 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:39.160 they said, we don't have to pay anything, you know, 276 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:44.160 and it just if you take the history of camps. 277 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:49.000 Remember Siberia. They worked them all to death, the tracks 278 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:53.440 to Siberia killed half of them, and were using that, 279 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:58.359 either knowingly or unknowingly as an historical model for what's 280 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.960 occurring you know nowadays. So yes, I think the majority 281 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:08.160 say good riddance. These people, you know, have committed crime. 282 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.640 They are you know, menace to society. They have to 283 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:17.799 pay their retribution, and these work camps is the one 284 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.119 manner of doing it. If they don't want to do 285 00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:24.039 a work camp, then let them let them rot, you know, 286 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.480 in the cell. And that is a dominant view. But 287 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:31.319 that is archaic, that is punitive, that is uncivilized, that 288 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:35.680 is unsophisticated, that is immoral. You don't make, you know, 289 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:40.519 prisoner slaves. We're way beyond that, hopefully in terms of 290 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.920 our most enlightened segment of society. And you know, the 291 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:48.680 prison mentality, the guard mentality, the warden mentality is still 292 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:50.319 way in the past. 293 00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:53.400 Well. The thing is too is if they fail miserably 294 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.079 in terms of a prisoner leaving a system and then 295 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:00.039 having some kind of it's not necessarily go away. I 296 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.680 should these people get any support. But if you put 297 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:06.119 that person out on the street without really a trade, 298 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.079 if you work them in a prison, it's not like 299 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:12.440 there's a credit towards or or some skill set that 300 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:15.319 this person will have once they're released. If if they 301 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.400 did work towards something like that, then you could say 302 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.519 they got their apprenticeship. They are employable, but with a 303 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.720 criminal record and a big void on your on your 304 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.039 work record for two or three years you have a 305 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:32.599 that person has a much harder time making it. And 306 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.160 then and it's not like you talk about a prison. 307 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:36.119 The prison system. 308 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.440 Do you understand, they don't care about rehabilitation. What they 309 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.359 say is one out of three of you will be back. 310 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:49.039 We you know, we they want you back. They feed 311 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:56.000 on recidivism. They encouraged, you know, by not providing education, 312 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:02.319 not providing adequate library, not really providing job training. They 313 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:06.759 they encourage the phenomenon of recidiitism. Don't you know? They 314 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:11.599 get paid Ultimately, the institution gets paid like many schools, 315 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:16.160 where their resources are allotted, like many schools on the outside, 316 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:19.640 by how many you know, inmates they have. They want inmates. 317 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:25.559 Inmates is in essence, you know, their resource. There's no 318 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.440 way they want to educate them. There's no way they 319 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.680 want to rehabilitate them. They want them to come back. 320 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:37.240 And therefore it perpetuates, you know, their system, their exploitation, 321 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:42.519 their you know, capitalizing off this slave waiver. Everyone in 322 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:46.039 these camps should be followed. 323 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:49.799 Out Lucky Land Casino asking people, what's the weirdest place 324 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:51.200 you've gotten Lucky. 325 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:53.079 Lucky in line at the Delhi I. 326 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:56.400 Guess ah in my dentist's office more than once. Actually, 327 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:57.599 do I have to say? 328 00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:58.039 Yes? 329 00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:59.640 You do in the car before? 330 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.000 Man, it's pta meeting. 331 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.880 Really yes, excuse me? 332 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:04.640 What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 333 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:05.920 I never win? 334 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:07.400 And tell well, there you have it. 335 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.279 You can get lucky anywhere playing at Lucky Landsloughts dot 336 00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:13.160 com play for free right now. Are you feeling lucky? No, 337 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:15.319 we're just necessary for my long eighteen plus terms and 338 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:18.039 Conditions of plus works ever retails. Hey guys, it is Ryan. 339 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:19.599 I'm not sure if you know this about me, but 340 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:21.680 I'm a bit of a fun fanatic when I can. 341 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:23.599 I like to work, but I like fun too. It's 342 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:25.640 a thing. And now the truth is out there, I 343 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:27.960 can tell you about my favorite place to have fun, 344 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:31.519 Chumba Casino. They have hundreds of social casino style games 345 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:34.319 to choose from, with new games released each week. You 346 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:37.759 can play for free anytime, anywhere, and each day brings 347 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:40.640 a new chance to collect daily bonuses. So join me 348 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.240 and the fun. Sign up now at Chumba Casino dot com. 349 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:46.319 No purg just ssses every day where I lost thee 350 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:48.119 Terms and Conditions eighteen plus should. 351 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:52.359 Be proved, you know, should be released. They're normally what 352 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.799 we call short termers. You know, I only got a 353 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:59.160 ten month sentence, and they transition people who've been in 354 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:01.200 a long time and they're about ready, you. 355 00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:01.880 Know, to leave. 356 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:06.759 They transition them through the prison camp. And let me 357 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:11.440 just be very honest, or many, many people from East 358 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:15.599 you know, who have been convicted in the Eastern States 359 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:20.880 come out to Lumppark Wumbuck's the pleasure Dome. They come 360 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:25.759 out because they're snitches, have to goddamn camp, have been 361 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:30.680 snitches and everyone's looking at each other and who's telling 362 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.200 this and who's telling that? And you know, informants are 363 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:39.359 treated very badly when they're ascertained. But the camp, you know, 364 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:47.000 produces the camp works and has its quotas. The camp 365 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:51.559 is run like a corporation is run. They have to 366 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:55.279 make their profit, even if it's only a paper profit. 367 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.000 So you know, what I advocate is eliminate them all. 368 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:03.000 And those persons who are eligible for a prison camp 369 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.960 are definitely eligible for parole, you know, let them out 370 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.119 them or they put the short terms or the stitches 371 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:16.599 in the camps in order to perpetuate the prison industries. 372 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.880 That's the only reason they're there and. 373 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:24.160 That's but isn't this really part of you know, you 374 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:27.119 work in the judicial system, and again the judicial system 375 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:29.200 someone you're a member of the judicial system. 376 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:34.000 You know, you know of the criminal defense bar. Okay, 377 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:37.599 what I'm saying that means that I'll go against most 378 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.039 of the time the prosecution and the judge and the 379 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.000 establishment all in you know, one bunch, right. 380 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.480 But as at the same time, the judge is a lawyer, 381 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.559 the prosecutor is a lawyer, and the judicial system. And 382 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.480 if the Lawyers Association or those people that are lawyers 383 00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.839 and who make the laws realize that there has been 384 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.440 again we can we can talk about this your long 385 00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:07.559 term marijuana advocate as well, the idea that they're putting 386 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:12.039 nonviolent people in in through the court system, wasting valuable 387 00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:16.079 time dealing with people like that, and then again, like 388 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:17.680 you say, put them and putting them the work and 389 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:21.000 then making money off their backs. Maybe it starts right 390 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.599 with the judicial system taking nonviolent crime and dealing with 391 00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:27.920 it and giving people criminal records and prohibition is a 392 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:31.599 really bad example or a really good example of nonviolent crime, 393 00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:36.480 especially marijuana use. But again, maybe it starts at the 394 00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:39.319 judicial system. Now let's talk a little bit you were 395 00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:42.440 Let's just describe for the for those before we get 396 00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:46.400 into prison reform and what you what your real recommendations 397 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:49.079 are and what you think were the injustices in the 398 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:53.759 prison system that need this necessary reform. Let's talk about 399 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:56.279 the correctional It was it a prison camp? 400 00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:57.039 Is it? 401 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:01.799