WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.720 You're listening to an airwave media podcast. 2 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:06.879 Karen and I would like to thank all the listeners 3 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:09.599 who are supporting us at Patreon or have provided reviews 4 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:12.439 on iTunes. If you'd like to join in on that support, 5 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:15.320 check us out at monster talk dot org forarde slash support, 6 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:19.199 or at patreon dot com forward slash monster Talk. Thank 7 00:00:19.239 --> 00:00:21.199 you so much for your help in producing this show. 8 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:28.160 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 9 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:35.640 A giant, hairy creature in part ape part mat in Luckness, 10 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:38.560 a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands 11 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:39.119 of Scotland. 12 00:00:39.479 --> 00:01:04.879 It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monstertal. 13 00:01:06.599 --> 00:01:09.200 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 14 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:13.719 Blake Smith. Darren's away this week, but we'll be back soon. Recently, 15 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:16.000 my social media feed blew up with links to a 16 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:19.680 story about a biology research project looking to Lockness and 17 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.680 the legend of NeSSI with the technology of environmental DNA. 18 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:27.239 I was somewhat concerned as I saw numerous responses from 19 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:31.400 my friends online saying NeSSI isn't real, why bother and 20 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:34.400 other things along those lines, clearly missing the point of 21 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.840 the actual study. If these well intentioned folks had bothered 22 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:40.560 to repass the headlines that have seen that the actual 23 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.640 study was actually quite interesting. Yes, the news story headlines 24 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:47.840 were about NeSSI, but the underlying science was about using 25 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:51.079 DNA research to assess the various species living in multiple 26 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:57.599 Scottish lakes. Imagine that using monsters to promote science research. Well, 27 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:00.519 you can see why it's right at my alley. So 28 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:03.400 I reached out to the lead researcher, Professor Neil Gimmel, 29 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:05.680 and he was kind enough to conduct a muster Talk 30 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:09.240 interview on very short notice. Not only that, but this 31 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:11.280 interview took place while he was on the shores of 32 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:14.000 Loch Ness. He turned his camera to the window at 33 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:16.199 one point and showed me the still waters outside as 34 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:19.479 we talked. Alas, our connection was so poor that I 35 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.360 didn't keep our video going, and honestly, the quality of 36 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:24.319 his side of the call got pretty bad at some points. 37 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:26.759 But I believe after editing all but one of our 38 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:30.240 exchanges turned out to be understandable. For that one, you'll 39 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:32.840 hear me interrupt the conversation in post production to explain 40 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:35.319 what he said. Other than that one spot, though, I 41 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:37.039 think we got a good enough recording. 42 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:37.719 That should all make sense. 43 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:40.919 My apologies for the quality where it drops, but keep 44 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.080 in mind that we're using a free technology that allows 45 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:46.159 us to conduct real time video conferences across the ocean, 46 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:48.800 such that I could be lurking in my basement in 47 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:51.759 Georgia here in Munster Talk Central, while he's in his 48 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:54.840 cabin on the shores of loch Ness. I wish we 49 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:57.520 didn't have quality issues with the audio, but Professor Gimmel 50 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:59.479 is certainly worth listening to, and I hope you find 51 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.879 our DISCUSSI as interesting as I did. Oh and here's 52 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:06.280 another little bit of monster Talk trivia. Doctor Gimmele got 53 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:08.800 the idea for doing his e DNA research of the 54 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:12.560 Locke while reading Darren n Aish's book Hunting Monster. A 55 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.039 link to Darren's book, which is now available in paperback. 56 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:17.159 We'll be in the show notes at monster talk dot org. 57 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:23.360 Monster So Professor Neil Gimmel is the ag Research Chair 58 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:26.800 and Reproduction in genomics at the University of Otago. He's 59 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:29.800 been in the forefront of media coverage surrounding a collaborative 60 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:33.120 project to use environmental DNA to look at species president 61 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:37.240 in Lockness, home of the famous legendary Locke monster NeSSI. 62 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:39.360 So welcome to Monster Talk, Neil. 63 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:42.120 Yeah, I like you, I'm good. 64 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:43.960 Thank you for making time for us. I know you've 65 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:45.280 got a busy schedule right now. 66 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.680 Yeah, it's been a bit crazy, and We've been at 67 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:53.960 Lockneis two days ago, so I'll actually know yesterday, so 68 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:55.400 I'm even losing track of talk. 69 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:01.159 I imagine. So it's interesting. So I saw several stories, 70 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:03.840 you know, rolling around on my social media. Because we 71 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:08.599 cover monsters and cryptozoology and science, everybody was sending me this. 72 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.879 But what surprised me was a lot of my friends 73 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.159 on social media are very much pro science people, but 74 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:18.639 they seemed, honestly to be a little concerned about the 75 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.120 use of NeSSI in a science project. I don't think 76 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.720 they were actually reading the article, because the article sounded 77 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:27.720 wonderful to me. I always think using monsters to promote 78 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:31.839 science and advance those kind of ideas is a really 79 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:33.600 great project. But can you tell us a little bit 80 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:35.879 about the study and what the purpose of it is 81 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:37.600 beyond what the headlines are telling us. 82 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:40.600 Well, yeah, sure, Blake, it's pretty straightforward, really. I mean, 83 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:43.199 we want to understand what's living in lock needs. We 84 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.240 don't believe there's a monster there, but we think that 85 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:50.240 there's a great opportunity to use this environmental DNA technology 86 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:53.800 to understand what is living near the fish, the plants, 87 00:04:54.439 --> 00:04:59.759 the microorganisms, the invertebrates, the whole shebbe. It can be studied. 88 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.319 You've seen this environmental DNA and who knows, maybe there 89 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.120 is something unknown to science in the murky depths of Lockneest. 90 00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:10.079 Scotland's got a monster problem. So there are about thirteen 91 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:15.199 different locks here in Scotland that have recordings or reports 92 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:18.720 of some kind of monster, mythical preacher. So NeSSI is 93 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:21.399 the most famous of the bunch. But Lockmoor, which is 94 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:23.920 another big lock here in Scotland, has a monster by 95 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:28.399 the name of Moragg. There's another lock that's just south 96 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.759 of Nest called oik And that's got a monster called Weoiki. 97 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:36.319 And then the whole bunch of others that have been 98 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:39.680 reported and have names that are predominantly in Gallic and 99 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:43.480 I can't pronounce. But the point is that the point 100 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:47.839 is that there's lots of legends of monsters here, particularly 101 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:53.519 related to the locks, and I guess it's underpinned by 102 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:58.279 the Celtic myth of the water horse or the kelpie. 103 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.720 So or we will be so from some of these 104 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.560 other sites where monsters may be present, and we'll be 105 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:07.399 looking to see if there's anything different about those between 106 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.879 locked nests and those other sites, or indeed what's similar. 107 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:12.240 So we would expect to see a lot of the 108 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:14.399 same fish species, would expect to see a lot of 109 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:17.560 other things. I guess what's different amongst those is also 110 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.600 interesting to us. But yes, the idea is that we've 111 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:22.519 tried to use these control sites to figure out what's 112 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:26.959 special about locked nest, But it turns out maybe there 113 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.360 are sites that have monsters. Who knows. 114 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:37.839 So the from a species perspective, where do these locks 115 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:40.879 get their fish from? I mean, do all of them? 116 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:42.800 Are they connected in some way? 117 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:45.839 So Locked Nest it sits at the north of Scotland 118 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:49.199 and it connects to the ocean through the more Firth 119 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:52.519 and there's a short piece of river called the Ness River. 120 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:55.959 It's only about six miles long, so Ness effectively connects 121 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:59.360 to the More Firth and then the North Sea on 122 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:03.560 the eastside of the north side of Scotland by about 123 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:08.279 six miles of river. And so it's open and salmon 124 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:13.519 and other species can swim through the nest river into Lockness. 125 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:17.879 So there's migratory eels, there's migratory salmon, lamp preys. They're 126 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:22.519 all known to move from the sea into Lockness. Occasionally 127 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.040 seals are seen in the lock and other species that 128 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:30.160 have obviously come from the oceans. And then from Lockness 129 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:33.600 you go down through the southern end into what's called 130 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:39.399 the Caledonian Canal, which is basically modified natural rivers which 131 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:42.600 connect a large number of other locks, including Lockwek which 132 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.639 I mentioned before, which has the monster called Wiouiki. So 133 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:51.519 clearly the locks are all connected, and if there were monsters, 134 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:53.800 perhaps they can have a party from time to time 135 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:57.399 because they could move between these sites. So there is 136 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:00.360 a degree of connection. So Lockness is not separate slate 137 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:01.079 in any way. 138 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:04.560 Neat when you're looking at the DNA, what would distinguish 139 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:07.040 a lake monster from the more mundane species. 140 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.000 Yeah, it would be something we can't easily identify on 141 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:13.519 the tree of life, I'd say for a starting point. 142 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:17.360 So we're working on the premise of hypothesis testing, so 143 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:21.279 we expect that when we go looking at our simples 144 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.079 that we'll see DNA from a variety of fish species, 145 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:28.519 including things like trout and salmon, and perhaps lamprey and 146 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:33.320 eels and pike, and a whole variety of fish that 147 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:37.360 have been previously documented in the lock. And then we 148 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:40.360 would expect also to find a large number of bacteria 149 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:44.600 and algae and various other things. What we are less 150 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:47.879 sure we will find is any evidence of some of 151 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:51.440 the hypotheses have been put forward to explain lockness. So 152 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:55.759 of course our major is the so called Jurassic hypothesis. 153 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:59.919 This is the one section where Neil's audio cut out 154 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:02.200 the point that I need to insert what he was saying. 155 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:05.960 What he says is the most outrageous hypothesis is the 156 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:09.159 so called Jurassic hypothesis that somewhere out there as a 157 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:13.519 prehistoric species like a pleasiosaur that's somehow escaped extinction if 158 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:15.840 such DNA was found. While we don't know exactly what 159 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:19.279 plesiosaur DNA looks like, we could make an educated guess 160 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:21.200 about what it would look like, even though we don't 161 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:23.600 have any intact DNA to compare it to. 162 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:26.960 But we can actually use a process called ancestral state 163 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:30.039 reconstruction to figure out what I please you sauce sequence 164 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:34.360 should look like within reasonable bounds. So we would expect, 165 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:36.600 to please your sauce sequence to sit somewhere in the 166 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:40.879 moditory of life around about where the crocodiles and birds are. 167 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:43.320 That's fascinating and. 168 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:47.120 That's sort of ballpark. So we look in for recentiance, 169 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:52.000 not a crocodile and not a snake or lizard, something 170 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:55.320 reptilian clearly, but new to science. And if we found 171 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:58.960 something like that, well, I would be highly surprised, but 172 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:02.600 I also then be setting out to further experiments to 173 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:05.120 prove that we could replicate that finding. And in fact, 174 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.559 actually it's a very important part of our processes that 175 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.879 we need to have some level of replication, and we 176 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:12.919 also need to have some level of observer wise so 177 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:15.679 that people don't look at the lock samples more they 178 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.120 look at any other samples, because the temptation would be 179 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:21.120 to spend more time and energy looking at lockness because 180 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.639 there's me to be something special for them. So anyway, 181 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:25.679 so the pleasia saur is that it's the most grand 182 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:28.440 of thee. There are some of the are other more 183 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:33.480 mundane ideas a giant catfish, like the Wells catfish, which 184 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:36.720 is the European catfish. These are monstrous animals, so they 185 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:40.720 grow to fourteen or sixteen feet in length. They can 186 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:45.000 be hundreds of pounds in weight. And in fact, you know, 187 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:48.240 thinking about a standard family car, you're probably talking about 188 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:51.360 something that's the length about half the size of a 189 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:54.559 standard family car. And I would have to say, if 190 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:57.320 something that had the head the width or half the 191 00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:00.919 width of my car's bonnet, then and now I saw 192 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.679 that thing come up underneath my boat, I'd think I'd 193 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.000 seen a monster too. So these the Wells capfish is 194 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:10.080 supposedly and produced by the Victorians and variety of waterways 195 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:13.200 again in Britain in the late eighteen hundreds. They can 196 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:15.679 we think lived one hundred years of age or more. 197 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:19.120 So it is possible, even if they weren't breeding, that 198 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:22.639 one of those fish has survived over time and is 199 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.960 in locked ness, although again improbable, but you just don't know. 200 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:29.600 And then the other idea that Adrian Shine that we 201 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:32.919 work with, has put forward is the idea that migratory 202 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:36.240 sturgeons might be an explanation for some of the monster sightings. 203 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:38.600 And again we know what a sturgeon's DNA looks like, 204 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:41.399 and we could look for evidence of whether we see 205 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:48.440 any sequences approximate what we think a sturgeon would look 206 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:50.559 like in terms of st a sequence. 207 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:53.679 I would love it if there was a really good 208 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:55.840 photograph of that, so we could have the sturgeon photo. 209 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:56.600 That'd be. 210 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:00.440 You know, clearly there's a lot of sturge up in 211 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:03.559 North America, pignosed sturge and things like that. Again, big 212 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:07.399 animals sixteen foot and lengths hundreds of pounds in weight, 213 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:12.000 live for years, and they're not even the biggest ones. 214 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:14.279 I think the biggest ones are the ones from Siberia. 215 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:18.639 So there's a lot of plausible explanations that we can test, 216 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:21.720 and we will will do. 217 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:27.440 Other biological concerns about the species in the lock that 218 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:30.159 this might be helpful for, Like people who are does 219 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:33.759 this tell us anything about the population? Are merely the existence? 220 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:37.360 Because I was curious about whether you know, the DNA 221 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:40.240 samples tell you anything about how many of an animal 222 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:41.080 might be present. 223 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.919 Yeah, it's it's very hard to quantify off these data 224 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:47.960 at the moment. That's something that many people around the 225 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.799 world are trying to figure out. So it's pretty much 226 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:54.399 you can get an idea of abundance from the total 227 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.320 quantity of DNA sequence, But it's hard to scale that 228 00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:00.480 because you know, big creatures will release more DNAs, creatures 229 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:04.000 will have less because they've got fewer cells. So we 230 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:07.799 need a better way to quantify that. So at the moment, 231 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:12.919 predominantly descriptive this was present, but we don't necessarily know 232 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:14.000 how many of them there are. 233 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:17.960 Does the depth of the lock when you're doing these samples, 234 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.320 are you expecting to see, like, do you think the 235 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:26.159 temperature and other factors will like affect the distribution of 236 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:28.000 the DNA across the samples. 237 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:33.799 Well, it certainly affects the distribution of species, So we're 238 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:36.960 going to be looking at temperature profiles and salinity profiles. 239 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:40.639 We know there's a thermocline in lockness. In fact, actually 240 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:45.080 the thermocline has been responsible for a lot of the 241 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:47.320 potential sightings that have been made over the years. We 242 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:51.120 think so logs submerge and then re emerge from time 243 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:53.320 to time, partly driven by the fact that there is 244 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:57.440 this temperature differential which creates currents, and sometimes these currents 245 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:00.159 run counter to the wind direction. So what happened as 246 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.279 you might have a northerly wind and yet people see 247 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.159 objects moving against the wind. So the natural instinct is 248 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.639 to say, Okay, it's moving, therefore I quit it's swimming, 249 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.000 and therefore it's a monster because it's going against the 250 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:19.759 direction of the prevailing wind. But in fact, Adrian China 251 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.480 that there's dynamic water movements and locked nests driven by 252 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:30.120 thermal differences. So I feel underwater mate is one of 253 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.200 the things that they're discovered, and that the water and 254 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:35.200 the currents can be moving in the opposite direction to 255 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:38.080 the wind. Blowing currents interesting, so you get objects like 256 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:39.960 logs that rise and fall in the water, so they 257 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:43.799 submerging and they re emerge, and occasionally they can be 258 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:48.360 moving opposite to the general prevailing wind flow. And the 259 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:53.279 explanation that many people have said is okay, it's moving 260 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:56.360 against the wind, therefore it must be swimming. But it 261 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.080 doesn't have to be. It could easily be the currents 262 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.399 that occur with lock nest of are driving. 263 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:05.440 That you're looking at water on this particular study. This 264 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.919 is me just hypothesizing, But would it be true or 265 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:13.120 would it be reasonable to suspect that the sediments that 266 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.919 fall on the bottom of the lock form something like 267 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:18.679 a historical record in the same way ice cores do 268 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:20.600 would you be able to do like a mud sample 269 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.919 at the bottom and tell about the species variations over time. 270 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:26.159 Would that kind of a sample. 271 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:31.720 Yeah, maybe they can preserve and sediments longer than a 272 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:33.720 can and water, but we just don't know how long. 273 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:39.879 What would depend on basically how protected it was from 274 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.919 microorganism damage. So funnily enough, tonight we were just talking 275 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:47.360 to Adria and Shine about cause that he took of 276 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:50.759 sediments twenty five years ago for a project called the 277 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.360 Rosetta Project, and it was quite revolutionary really. So Adrian 278 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.399 managed to get a device two hundred and thirty meters 279 00:15:57.399 --> 00:15:58.840 down to the bottom of lock Nest and then he 280 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:05.080 managed to sample deep into the lock six meters plus 281 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:09.440 and that goes back nine and a half thousand years, 282 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.720 so basically to the time of the last glaciation. Here. Wow, 283 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:15.720 he's got a couple of cause like that. He's got 284 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.159 some others that are shorter, and he still has them 285 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:20.000 on a shelf up in the top of his loft, 286 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:22.559 so they've been stored dry, which is not ideal. People 287 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:27.279 that do this cooring would routinely freeze them. But we 288 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:29.120 are going to give it a go and see if 289 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:30.799 we can get some DNA out of his cause and 290 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:34.519 see if we might be able to find evidence of 291 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:38.960 what species were present in the sediment cause well, I 292 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:43.919 don't know three four or five, nine thousand years ago. 293 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.000 You know, I think the prospects of getting something good 294 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:51.840 are probably pretty low. But you know, within my team 295 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:54.279 that we've assembled here, we've got people from the University 296 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:58.559 of Copenhagen, from Tom Gilbert's lab, and you know Tom's 297 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:01.360 an expert on paleoge If anyone can do this, he 298 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:03.840 probably can. So we'll give it a go. 299 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:07.039 That's fantastic. Seems like a low cost, low risk way 300 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.759 to approach the problem without having to do new core samples. 301 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:12.200 Yeah. Well, course sampling is really hard. 302 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:13.119 Yeah. 303 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:16.880 So Adrian described as a bit of a moonshot, and 304 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:19.559 probably he's probably right. It would have been a lot 305 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:21.960 of work. And if we were to do that sort 306 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:24.160 of project again, and it would take quite a lot 307 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:28.880 of kit and time. So I think he had a 308 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:30.839 rig deployed on the bottom of lock Nest for a 309 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:34.680 couple of weeks, and you know that's a lot of 310 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:38.119 boat time. Yeah, yeah, And and and a higher level 311 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:41.680 of risk that you might actually achieve nothing so the 312 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.920 weather he is actually phenomenal at the moment. So if 313 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:46.640 we'd had all the equipment, maybe we could give it 314 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:48.839 a go again, but not the strimp. 315 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.480 You so you've got this team together. How expensive is 316 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:55.799 a project like this is? Is this something that will 317 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.119 be affordable to come back and do again and get 318 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.880 some sort of sample over time? 319 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:04.799 So it's hard to guess exactly how well. I mean, 320 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:07.119 I should know how much it's cost. I can tell 321 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:09.920 you that most I can tell you that the boat 322 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:16.880 and the skipper, the Lockness Projects has donated to us, 323 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:18.400 so we haven't had to pay for any of that. 324 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.759 Pretty much everybody that's working on the project is donating 325 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:24.880 their time for free. I'm paying for some accommodation, I'm 326 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:29.039 paying for food. I haven't paid people to fly here 327 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:34.480 except for my student and myself. So at that regard, 328 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:37.240 it's a reasonably low cost project. Where it gets expensive 329 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:42.119 is when we start buying the gear to take the samples. 330 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:47.079 So that was a few thousand dollars. When we process 331 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:51.079 the samples, it's going to be a few thousand dollars more. 332 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.400 So what are we looking at now, Probably ten thousand 333 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:59.559 dollars in reagents, costs probably with the accommodation bills and 334 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:03.000 if as probably another ten thousand dollars, So not cheap 335 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:06.400 by any stretch of the imagination. And then it gets 336 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.559 even more expensive when we start getting to the lab 337 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:12.119 and doing the sophisticated genetics. So there you're probably talking 338 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:16.559 about thirty thousand dollars and then probably another thirty thousand 339 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:20.640 dollars to sequencing, so that that adds up a much 340 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:26.160 close to one hundred thousand bucks and money coming from 341 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.599 I'm mostly paying for it out of bits of money 342 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:33.480 that I've managed to accumulate from projects over time, and 343 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:40.119 I'm also hopeful that some suppliers will donate their services. So, 344 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:42.759 for example, the twenty thousand dollars worth of lab costs 345 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.880 that I mentioned, I got an email last week and 346 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:48.920 it looks like a company might come to the party 347 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:54.559 on that. The sequencing. It looks very lightly that a 348 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:56.480 company called a Luna, who one of the leaders in 349 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:00.680 sequencing technologies, will probably help us with the and they 350 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:02.880 look to have some support from a local company here 351 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:05.079 in the UK. So hundreds of thousands of dollars is 352 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:06.759 the answer, but not paying. 353 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:11.440 That that's fantastic though, I mean I mean it's it's expensive, 354 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:14.440 yet it's you know, it's it's it sounds like some 355 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:16.920 really good return on the dollar for this kind of 356 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:18.319 data that you're going to get out of this. 357 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.240 Yeah. So this science that we do genetics is not 358 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.519 a cheap science by any stretch of the imagination. The 359 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.519 equipment and the chemicals are expensive, but you know, the 360 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.400 insights that we're gaining from the work are quite extraordinary 361 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:34.720 from time to time. So it's easy to say, oh, 362 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:37.839 this genetics project is very expensive. Some more cynical out 363 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:40.240 there would say, oh, that's a lot of meter to spend, 364 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:43.240 looking to some does not. And it's not about the monster. 365 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:47.720 The monster is an opportunity to get people interested in science. Okay, 366 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.799 So for us, it's all about what's in lockes and 367 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.599 it's measuring it by diversity's understanding what the life of 368 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:59.400 that lock is like in June twenty eighteen, it's establishing 369 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.319 a baseline from which we can do further experiments down 370 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:05.240 the track, or how people who have instant questions of 371 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.599 their own. So, for example, we're working with UK collaborators 372 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.680 who are working on the patterns of movement of migratory fish. 373 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:14.799 Is ishes well not locked ness samples going to be 374 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:17.319 really really important the answer some of their questions. There's 375 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:21.079 another proach that's worked the Scottish Natural Heritage Society and 376 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:27.440 they are interested in what are the biological markers of 377 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:32.119 healthy lake or lock systems. And again this will fit 378 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.559 into part of the total package of what people know 379 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:39.200 about locks in Scotland and we can make some assessment 380 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.799 about how healthy lock ness is. So I think we'll 381 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:47.039 get multiple science publications out out of this work as 382 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:51.119 well as being able to explain to people what we're doing. Ye, 383 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:54.960 DNA is powerful and hopefully getting them excited about the 384 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:58.319 prospect of using that in other contexts. And who knows, 385 00:21:58.359 --> 00:21:59.480 we might even find a monster. 386 00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:03.640 I tell you what, Neil, this project is so close 387 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:05.680 to my heart. This is exactly the sort of thing 388 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.359 that we try to do with monster talk to you know. 389 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:12.319 The fascination in monsters just naturally bleeds over into a 390 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:16.759 really useful way of looking at biology and trying to 391 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:21.920 understand science and to understand evolution and how all the 392 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:26.039 things are related. There's so much there. I'm just really 393 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:29.279 stoked for you. I hope you find something really cool. 394 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:32.039 And I realized that really cool is not particularly scientific, 395 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:35.839 but you know, I love this, so. 396 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:39.960 Yeah, so do we. And that's what we're excited about. 397 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:45.119 We're excited about the opportunity to excite people about science, 398 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.640 I mean, basic fundamental science. If I told you about 399 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.920 d and I without a monster hook, we probably get 400 00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:53.960 two coliments in the local paper if we are lucky. 401 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:57.839