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Speaker 2: Oh hello, Hi, it's your old dog hiding behind the
Speaker 2: couch because I ate from the garbage again. For week two,
Speaker 2: it's all Ali Ward. Okay, why well, because we're back
Speaker 2: for part two of theorology. Folks, did you listen to
Speaker 2: part one? I hope you did. If you haven't, then
Speaker 2: just stop this. Go back listen to part one. That's
Speaker 2: how things work sequentially, and part one is bananas. How
Speaker 2: crazy bananas was that episode? So I heard from so
Speaker 2: many of you that it was like life changing, totally
Speaker 2: was for me too. And so we're back for the
Speaker 2: last half of the interview because I did talk to
Speaker 2: that ologist for one million hours, so I split it
Speaker 2: into two. Fun fact, did you know that you can't
Speaker 2: spell interview without review. Got it. And when you rate
Speaker 2: and review and subscribe to this podcast, it keeps it
Speaker 2: up in the charts, and it helps other people see it,
Speaker 2: and then boom, you have more people to talk about
Speaker 2: this stuff with at dinner parties. So and I read
Speaker 2: every single one of your reviews. Every single one is
Speaker 2: that weird. I do it, no shame. And this week's
Speaker 2: review was just so kind. The review I picked to
Speaker 2: read is from stir Fried. The part I loved said,
Speaker 2: even when I see a topic and I'm like, eh,
Speaker 2: I give it a listen, and I get wrapped up
Speaker 2: in it as if it were a topic that I
Speaker 2: was enthralled with. Keep it up, Alli. And so if
Speaker 2: there are any episodes that you haven't listened to because
Speaker 2: you're like, I don't think I'm gonna like that, go
Speaker 2: back and listen to it. My promise, I put stuff
Speaker 2: in there for everyone, and you're gonna be like, who knew.
Speaker 2: I am now very very excited about Jemstone and birds.
Speaker 2: So head on back, okay, but let's get back to it.
Speaker 2: So we learned last week that feorology is indeed a
Speaker 2: real word. It has been cited in the literature and
Speaker 2: that stress is just a sneaky, deaky word for fear
Speaker 2: that blew my mind, and that fear is not helpful
Speaker 2: unless it's factual, and you need your muscles tens to
Speaker 2: outrun an angry animal, And that a lot of our
Speaker 2: fictional fears stem from just plain old human not being
Speaker 2: good enough or from being out of control? So why
Speaker 2: did I never learn that in therapy? Ever? Why not? Anyway?
Speaker 2: No matter. Also, if this podcast makes your life any better,
Speaker 2: here's where I say, maybe consider being a patron for
Speaker 2: like a dollar a month. I'm not afraid to put
Speaker 2: that out there. Patrons get to ask their questions to theologists.
Speaker 2: And also you help support the making of the show,
Speaker 2: which requires like web hosting and editing and microphones and
Speaker 2: all sorts of other bullshit. Anyway, back to Fear. So
Speaker 2: this week we'll find out how super successful people approach fear.
Speaker 2: We'll learn about Mary's scariest hour of her life and
Speaker 2: what she learned, plus all your questions about everything from
Speaker 2: night terrors to self spookery to shark's bad pr image
Speaker 2: to how likely is it that a snake bites your butt?
Speaker 2: And also the best thing about following your passions in life.
Speaker 2: So sit back, breathe deep, and hold on to your
Speaker 2: Amignola folks. For Fearrologists Part two Mary Puff and Roth.
Speaker 3: And it sounds like a Harry Potter name, which is
Speaker 3: totally fine.
Speaker 2: Let's get right into it. Let's talk about what is
Speaker 2: the most afraid Mary Poffinroth ferrologist has ever been. Do
Speaker 2: you know the most afraid you've ever been?
Speaker 3: Let's see, I'm afraid a lot. Probably one story that
Speaker 3: pops in my mid and it's usually when you think
Speaker 3: about all the things you're really afraid of, it's like
Speaker 3: death right of some kind, either like your death or
Speaker 3: someone that you loves death. Because death is final. It's
Speaker 3: one of those things that generally you can't live through,
Speaker 3: and even living through someone else's death is always really challenging.
Speaker 2: For more about fearing death, you can see or revisit
Speaker 2: the episode on Thanatology with Cole and Perry. Okay, sorry,
Speaker 2: let's get back to our story.
Speaker 3: Once I was doing my graduate work in biology in
Speaker 3: the warm mountains of California, which is like very northeastern
Speaker 3: corner in the middle of nowhere, and it's like an
Speaker 3: eight hour drive from the Bay Area, which means that
Speaker 3: I had to like go by my self to do
Speaker 3: live trapping like a lot. And it's I'm probably like
Speaker 3: twenty three at the time, twenty four, and it's a
Speaker 3: bunch of sage brush scrub, which is kind of like
Speaker 3: a like a tawny blue color, almost like a gray
Speaker 3: blue color. And I'm dressed in gray field pants and
Speaker 3: a gray vest because I'm smart, and it's hunting season
Speaker 3: because it's the middle of nowhere, so I'm not by
Speaker 3: myself in the middle of like the sage brush scrub,
Speaker 3: checking my traps, studying the habitat partition of chipmunk species.
Speaker 3: So out there dying a thing, and hear this like
Speaker 3: pop pop pop, and I like just hit like my
Speaker 3: my initial like you know, reaction is to get super small,
Speaker 3: hit the deck, like you really really tiny. And at
Speaker 3: this point I know I'm getting shot at, Oh my god,
Speaker 3: but I don't know if they're doing it because they
Speaker 3: don't see me or because they do see me. So
Speaker 3: and as a woman, the first thing in my mind
Speaker 3: is like not death, but like, oh my god, these
Speaker 3: are hunters. They are going to be like cowboys. They're
Speaker 3: going to rape me. That's like that's where my mind
Speaker 3: initially goes and as you do, yeah, as you do, right,
Speaker 3: and the I'm like, okay, what I do?
Speaker 4: What I do?
Speaker 3: And I'm trying to get really small under the stage
Speaker 3: bush grub and I turn over to my left and
Speaker 3: there's a giant fire ant hill like right in front
Speaker 3: of my face. So I have to make some decisions
Speaker 3: about my life right now. The truck that I had
Speaker 3: is even if I ran, I'm not a good runner,
Speaker 3: would be like like a ten minute run to get
Speaker 3: back to the truck. So I'm like, okay, do I
Speaker 3: just stay still? Do I do? Like? Do I? I don't? Like,
Speaker 3: I can't stay right here because there's fire ants literally
Speaker 3: in my face. And at this point, I'm going through
Speaker 3: all of the scenarios of what could happen and do
Speaker 3: I deal with the very real in my face fire
Speaker 3: ants and just stay where I am and don't move
Speaker 3: because they might see if I move? Do I make
Speaker 3: noise because maybe they'd be just don't see me? Because
Speaker 3: I want to trust that humans are good. You're like,
Speaker 3: what are what are I motions? And then I'm thinking
Speaker 3: like the news right of like young Field biologists, Warner Mountains,
Speaker 3: and this happens within seconds, right all of these scenarios
Speaker 3: play out in your head. And I definitely and being alone,
Speaker 3: right because they like if I had been with someone
Speaker 3: else's ability to reach out would have made everything so
Speaker 3: much better, you know, safety and numbers and uh, this
Speaker 3: was like before cell phones were a thing. So this
Speaker 3: is right, And so you're just in nature. I love
Speaker 3: nature of a biologists, but also nature is scary because
Speaker 3: we are not good at defending ourselves yet. Just we're
Speaker 3: pretty like we don't have things, we don't have a
Speaker 3: good ability to do much of anything physical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll think our way out of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, good luck, right, Yeah, I mean've got a
Speaker 3: posable thumbs. That's kind of cool. Helps, And so I
Speaker 3: think that probably is one definitely one of like the
Speaker 3: like scariest actual situation.
Speaker 2: How did you resolve it?
Speaker 3: So I kind of like scoot it down again, like
Speaker 3: looking I'm kind of you know, like very very tiny,
Speaker 3: I like to say, uh, fun sized, And I just
Speaker 3: scooted like around away from the ants and just kind
Speaker 3: of like froze there and like wait and then like
Speaker 3: waited to hear stuff. So they were like in an
Speaker 3: ATV which made noise and just waited for the ATV
Speaker 3: sounds to like move away, And I have no idea
Speaker 3: how long I was there, but just like made myself small,
Speaker 3: did not like, you know, cause the fighting that wasn't
Speaker 3: really gonna help. Yeah, I like flying, I knew it
Speaker 3: was too far, so I'm like, I will just hide.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what were they shooting at?
Speaker 3: Do you think point dear? Yeah, it's it's like really
Speaker 3: middle of nowhere California, like the one town. And by town,
Speaker 3: I mean there was a gas station and a bar
Speaker 3: that was the town and that was like an hour
Speaker 3: and fifteen minutes away drive. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a quick note. So curiosity got the better
Speaker 2: of me and I was like, what happens if you
Speaker 2: do bury your face in a pile of fire ants?
Speaker 2: What happens? And it led me to a YouTube video
Speaker 2: with fourteen million views in which a guy named Coyote
Speaker 2: Peterson inserts his hands into a mound of loose sandy
Speaker 2: soil like he's just getting the world's worst manicure by
Speaker 2: thousands of Satan servants giving him itchy lumps and pustules.
Speaker 2: Let's listen in.
Speaker 4: I'm Kyartie Peterson, not about ten to the strike zone
Speaker 4: with the fire ant. You guys ready you shot good
Speaker 4: yep one two, three, holy cow out?
Speaker 3: Oh oh, holy cow.
Speaker 4: That's a lot of things already.
Speaker 2: Anyway, he tries to keep them in there for like
Speaker 2: sixty full seconds, just like a good cuticle soak, but
Speaker 2: he lasts maybe twenty five because he's like, fuck this shit,
Speaker 2: I hate science. Now he doesn't say that vocal, but
Speaker 2: I bet it's it's head a little bit. Okay, back
Speaker 2: to Mary, who were they shooting at and what happened?
Speaker 3: It was. It was definitely one of those like I
Speaker 3: am actually kind of screwed if they if they were
Speaker 3: shooting at me because they saw me. But then the
Speaker 3: reality is the chances are they probably were shooting at
Speaker 3: a deer and not me, and they shouldn't see me
Speaker 3: because I was all in gray and still, yeah, that's
Speaker 3: I'm going to put that in the factual. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 3: definitely it was. You know, the the getting shot at
Speaker 3: was super fact. But then you know, my mind continue
Speaker 3: to make all different reasons and in that situation, you know,
Speaker 3: you don't know, and so I just kind of like
Speaker 3: waited it out until I heard them like really far away,
Speaker 3: and then just like took off.
Speaker 2: Thank God, You're like, do we owe someone money? Am
Speaker 2: I the mob? What's happening?
Speaker 3: Is this a political assassination?
Speaker 2: So yes, even ferologists get afraid. It happens. But like
Speaker 2: super successful, crazy successful people, they must just lack a gene.
Speaker 2: They just must not feel fear. Right, So actually I
Speaker 2: want to come back. This was the beginning of the
Speaker 2: top of the talk.
Speaker 3: I was saying that there's uh a guy who did
Speaker 3: some research looking at how what vocabulary was being used
Speaker 3: of super successful people versus like less than successful or
Speaker 3: mediocre people. And like the hyper successful people like the
Speaker 3: Richard Branson's and the Ed Catmell of Pixar and like
Speaker 3: the I mean wow, have done crazy stuff. They use
Speaker 3: the word fear. They use the word afraid, and they
Speaker 3: use the word scared. No yeah, so yeah, Like in
Speaker 3: Ed Catmull's book that he wrote about creativity, Creativity, Inc.
Speaker 3: I think he used the exact word fear like ninety
Speaker 3: eight times.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: And people that are less successful, guess what word they
Speaker 3: use stress?
Speaker 2: Stress shut up?
Speaker 3: Are you serious?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my god. So like like and Camill said,
Speaker 3: if we're not afraid, we're not doing our job, because
Speaker 3: that means we are playing small and we are not
Speaker 3: pushing our limits. So learning that fear is something you
Speaker 3: should run towards in a healthy way with those fictional fears,
Speaker 3: not like you run towards your mugger, right, let's hug. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but you know, making those adult decisions, but feeling that
Speaker 3: fear and being like, oh, okay, this is maybe an
Speaker 3: area that I don't feel confident in, So what can
Speaker 3: I do to push that a little harder instead of
Speaker 3: running away from it?
Speaker 2: And that is in terms of you know, this is
Speaker 2: a different episode, but in terms of phobias like that
Speaker 2: is why exposure therapy can be helpful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And there's a lot of work being done
Speaker 3: with like VR with phobias and exposure therapy. So it's
Speaker 3: they feel a little bit safe, but still their brain
Speaker 3: is getting trained. It's okay to you know, get on
Speaker 3: a plane or wear a sweater whatever that is to
Speaker 3: help their retrain themselves.
Speaker 2: It would just be me in a spreadsheet.
Speaker 3: Spreadsheet, breadsheet of phobia, God excelophobia, Yes.
Speaker 2: Them so much. Okay, you're ready for rapid fire. Mm hmm, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna throw these out. You can answer as
Speaker 2: quickly as you want. Okay. These are from Patreon's patrons
Speaker 2: on Patreon who support the show. Thanks guys. Tyler Fox
Speaker 2: wants to know. Is fear of the dark mostly universal?
Speaker 3: I would say yes, because as humans we have really
Speaker 3: poor eyesight at night. We're a diurnal species. That means
Speaker 3: that we're going to be naturally, you know, awake during
Speaker 3: the day, even though in modern parts we have the
Speaker 3: ability to have fancy electric light. Our bodies are meant
Speaker 3: to be active hunting in the day, so at night
Speaker 3: we would naturally get in our little safe protective area,
Speaker 3: whatever you know that would be, whether that is you know,
Speaker 3: a tribal situation or if you're a primate in your
Speaker 3: little nest, and then we don't leave because we can't
Speaker 3: see and there's predators out there and we can't see
Speaker 3: that well at night, like walk into your room or
Speaker 3: like the bathroom. And this is and when you talk
Speaker 3: about beer, you want to really try and separate the
Speaker 3: ones you just are going to be part of your
Speaker 3: life forever. So I'm still afraid to go in the
Speaker 3: bathroom when it's dark at night, but I don't want
Speaker 3: to turn on a light because I'm be able to
Speaker 3: go back to bed. But have to pee, and I
Speaker 3: just keep thinking, like, what if there's but if there's
Speaker 3: a snake in the toilet. I live in downtown La, y'all,
Speaker 3: Like there's no. I mean, I don't live in the tropics.
Speaker 3: I mean that's but I just I don't know why.
Speaker 3: It's like, what if it bites my butt?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I'm really it's how cute, how cut would be just
Speaker 3: be like mar.
Speaker 1: N h.
Speaker 3: I mean, but the probability very slim.
Speaker 2: I mean it's very slim. Okay, quick note here, how
Speaker 2: probable is it that a snake will bite your butt?
Speaker 2: I started looking into this to prove that it's happened
Speaker 2: like one time, and the news likes to sell fear,
Speaker 2: and yes, sure enough, a family in Seattle a few
Speaker 2: years ago found an enormous ball python in their apartment toilet,
Speaker 2: and that kind of blew the notion up a bit.
Speaker 2: But then I started finding more and more stories. Apparently
Speaker 2: this is not an isolated incident. So the BBC did
Speaker 2: a piece on toilet critters, and one Australian wildlife worker
Speaker 2: says that rats sometimes hang out in sewer pipes, which
Speaker 2: is like so on brand for them and the snakes
Speaker 2: follow the rats. They're just like walking hamburgers. So this
Speaker 2: guy gets called on about four or five times a year,
Speaker 2: and he was like, not vague about his feelings. He said, quote,
Speaker 2: it's the worst job. You get a toilet bowl that's
Speaker 2: been there thirty forty years. We see the bit that
Speaker 2: gets cleaned, but the rest of it doesn't. So when
Speaker 2: you go to pull the thing out of there, it's
Speaker 2: not fun. I usually have a bottle of disinfectant with me.
Speaker 2: Only imagine. He said all of that in a very
Speaker 2: charming wildlife Australian. Okay, So then I scrolled through a
Speaker 2: large volume of images online of things in your toilet
Speaker 2: that should not be in your toilet, and I found
Speaker 2: photos of very wet baby bunnies, a dazed and sopping squirrel,
Speaker 2: and dozens of bright green toilet frogs that had just
Speaker 2: sauntered up a pipe after a rainstorm. So it happens,
Speaker 2: but it's still rare, and most of the time just
Speaker 2: think of it as a universe delivering you a new
Speaker 2: temporary pet.
Speaker 3: But it's one of those things that I think about
Speaker 3: and be like, Okay, it's irrational. I'm just gonna just
Speaker 3: let it go. And so and part of it is
Speaker 3: when you go into a dark room, it's you don't
Speaker 3: know what's going to be there. And this is why
Speaker 3: when we look at horror movies and the tropes that
Speaker 3: are in there, they're very specifically tapping into those natural fears,
Speaker 3: you know, Like horror movies are usually dark and there's
Speaker 3: a spooky house or there's a corn field, and it's
Speaker 3: not like bright, sunny, beautiful day. Usually it's like dark,
Speaker 3: so that you can hide in the shadows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're never like they never take place in like
Speaker 2: a brightly lit wal mart or something or.
Speaker 3: Thought that might be a good one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that strikes terror in a lot of people, I'm sure.
Speaker 2: Tofer Mendoza wants to know. Is fear a learned behavior? Says,
Speaker 2: I used to be afraid of a lot of things,
Speaker 2: and then my belief structure change. Now I find it
Speaker 2: really hard to be scared by things that are supposed
Speaker 2: to be scary.
Speaker 3: So with fear, there's both, like we're saying, fictional and
Speaker 3: factual fear, So we're always going to have a natural
Speaker 3: fear response. So at the top of hour, we're talking
Speaker 3: about stressors versus stress, So as those stressors change, we
Speaker 3: can have a different perception of how we're going to
Speaker 3: react to those stressors, and everyone's gonna have a little
Speaker 3: bit of a different tolerance for dealing with different stressors.
Speaker 3: So you can learn to be more afraid, you can
Speaker 3: be you can learn to be less afraid. But you're
Speaker 3: always going to have fear in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 3: It might not be something you're dealing with daily, right
Speaker 3: like that factual fear of having your life physically threatened,
Speaker 3: or someone that you love that you know you're out
Speaker 3: of control to impact it, or you know, those kind
Speaker 3: of fears. Hopefully you're very minimal in our lives. So
Speaker 3: really the fictional fears where we can do the most
Speaker 3: work and we have the most impact. So it sounds
Speaker 3: like the Patreon there was able to do that work
Speaker 3: with the fictional fears and start whittling down their reaction
Speaker 3: to those things that are not directly impacting their ability
Speaker 3: to survive, and even within factual fears, like you look
Speaker 3: at military training where they're trying to get people to
Speaker 3: move past what their initial like fear reaction would be
Speaker 3: with you know, someone literally coming to pretend to kill them.
Speaker 2: Military training involves something called fear inoculation, which is getting
Speaker 2: exposed to scary ish situations in kind of small amounts
Speaker 2: until you're just no longer shocked by them. You're just
Speaker 2: kind of over it. So how do they do this?
Speaker 2: They simulate bad via in this kind of blew my
Speaker 2: mind paintball and laser tag, which now totally justifies my
Speaker 2: dislike of these recreational activities. If someone's like, hey, it's
Speaker 2: Saturday afternoon, you want to go do minigolf or like
Speaker 2: eat pancakes on a patio or pretend to kill each
Speaker 2: other with lasers, there's one of those things that I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm good.
Speaker 3: And that's training and it takes a while. But to
Speaker 3: say that even a highly trained Navy seal is not
Speaker 3: afraid is ridiculous. They're still they're going to acknowledge it,
Speaker 3: but they're going to have the skills in training to
Speaker 3: move past it to do what they need to do.
Speaker 2: It'd be interesting to make a list of the things
Speaker 2: that scare you most, or the times you've been most afraid,
Speaker 2: and go back and think, was there an actual danger there?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? And how would I handle
Speaker 2: that fear in hindsight? Knowing I'm thinking about the times
Speaker 2: I've been most afraid, and yeah, I think about like
Speaker 2: the centrifuge, and I'm like, yeah, no, I didn't need
Speaker 2: to be afraid. Even the mugging. I got through it.
Speaker 2: I threw my purse really far. I distracted them, I
Speaker 2: memorized your plates. I took them to court. Like you know,
Speaker 2: it was not a pleasant experience, and I had ptsc
Speaker 2: for a while, but I clearly, you know, I think
Speaker 2: that if I if you look back on all the
Speaker 2: times that you've you've been afraid and thought, well, I
Speaker 2: handled it and so I survived, you know, then it
Speaker 2: almost feels more empowering. But you know, Jordan s wants
Speaker 2: to know weird and dumb question, why does anxiety slash
Speaker 2: dread give us that stomach achey crampy feeling. I understand
Speaker 2: the racing heart and fast breathing, but I can never
Speaker 2: really get why that stomach cramp feeling happens.
Speaker 3: And I'm the big D word.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that rhea is the way to get
Speaker 2: yourself out of it. You're like, ria are rihah already
Speaker 2: got pick one? Yeah, so if you listen to part one,
Speaker 2: you may remember that Mary's tactic when you feel stressed
Speaker 2: out or angry or fretful, is to stop and do
Speaker 2: some ri I A some riha which stands for recognize, identify,
Speaker 2: and address a fear or a stress when it comes
Speaker 2: up to figure out exactly what it is that you're
Speaker 2: afraid of.
Speaker 3: Throughout the work that I do. I like to have
Speaker 3: a dichotomy because people love one or the other right
Speaker 3: like binary of like left, right, good, bad, up down.
Speaker 3: So in particularly for that question we're talking about digestion,
Speaker 3: it's because digestion is a non essential function of when
Speaker 3: we are in fear. So this is also why a
Speaker 3: sustained fear response leads to part of the OBCD epidemic
Speaker 3: that we're seeing in the United States and throughout the
Speaker 3: developed world, because when our body is in fear, it's
Speaker 3: not trying to digest properly. It's just be like, okay,
Speaker 3: shut it down, because that's not going to our digestive
Speaker 3: system is not going to help us fight off the stuff.
Speaker 3: So when like the grumbly tumbly stuff, that's more of
Speaker 3: the digestion system, like trying to like take things offline,
Speaker 3: and with the excavation aspect, that's trying to lighten the
Speaker 3: payload so that we we just you know, like dump
Speaker 3: the cargo so you can run faster, which is which
Speaker 3: is an animal response. Like when birds like take off
Speaker 3: for flight, they want to lighten the cargo load, which
Speaker 3: is why they like pooh before flight.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: You want to you know, make the journey as light
Speaker 3: as possible.
Speaker 2: You feel like anytime you have loaded a pet into
Speaker 2: the car to go to the vet, you've probably gotten
Speaker 2: shit on it, like at least once. Like I remember
Speaker 2: having to take a cat to the vet once and
Speaker 2: it was just explosion. It was like you stepped on
Speaker 2: a pastry bag. And I was like why, and it's
Speaker 2: like I'm scared.
Speaker 3: I don't know what a car. I don't understand cars.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I guess that our bodies do that before
Speaker 2: a big presentation or whatever. You know, your body's like,
Speaker 2: you know what would help this presentation. It's just a
Speaker 2: bit a diarrhea.
Speaker 3: Give that something extra.
Speaker 2: This is what's going to help you survive your like
Speaker 2: PhD dissertation, it's just explode your butthole. I've also heard
Speaker 2: that right before a fight, your body wants to lighten
Speaker 2: your load and you get stabbed by claws like in
Speaker 2: your colon, and then the less you have on board,
Speaker 2: the smaller your risk of contaminating your own body with
Speaker 2: the filthy contents that is the bag of waste that
Speaker 2: is your guts. I hope you're not eating. So I
Speaker 2: look for some articles on this and I can't confirm it,
Speaker 2: but I think it's a cute idea, kind of like
Speaker 2: your body, just like toss in a bowllet chili in
Speaker 2: the bushes before a fistfight, so it doesn't stain your shirt. Now, okay,
Speaker 2: what if you're just blessed with not feeling any fear
Speaker 2: at all. Well, there's this disease called herbach wife. I
Speaker 2: think that's how you pronounce it. That can cause calcium
Speaker 2: deposits and lesions on the little almond fear factory that
Speaker 2: is your amygdala, and thus it can reduce a patient's
Speaker 2: fear response to next to nothing. My friend, doctor Tigenwall,
Speaker 2: thank you, by the way for telling me about this
Speaker 2: over dinner. So one sufferer of this disease is identified
Speaker 2: only as SM It's probably at the behest of the
Speaker 2: researchers for an anonymity, but she's probably like so a
Speaker 2: lot of people find I now who I am? I
Speaker 2: literally fear nothing. That's probably not true, but according to
Speaker 2: Wikipedia quote, SM appears to experience relatively little negative emotion
Speaker 2: while simultaneously experiencing a relatively high degree of positive effect
Speaker 2: despite great adversity in her life. So researchers are like, yeah,
Speaker 2: she's pretty happy. Man. She's got a shit life, but
Speaker 2: she's pretty happy. So researchers took SM to an exotic
Speaker 2: pet store. They had her whole snakes and spiders, and
Speaker 2: she was fine. She was like, this is dope, which
Speaker 2: I kind of have to agree with her. That would
Speaker 2: be pretty cool. But they also took her to a
Speaker 2: haunted halloween house and she was just chill. She was like,
Speaker 2: this is fun. Her lack of anticipatory fear, though, has
Speaker 2: had as consequences. She walks alone at night whenever she wants,
Speaker 2: and she's been mugged, but she continues to take the
Speaker 2: same walk home, something that her amygdala in a healthy
Speaker 2: state would otherwise be screaming at her, like no recalculating route, bitch, no,
Speaker 2: do not go down that street. But as Sam is
Speaker 2: said to be super friendly to strangers, so I imagine she's
Speaker 2: probably like a hoot at a cocktail party. Megan Gerard asks,
Speaker 2: setting aside really split second super bad situations factional, what
Speaker 2: can we do to help control or tamp down fear
Speaker 2: for things that we know logically are not dangerous or scary?
Speaker 2: So once again, Rhea, Yeah, you.
Speaker 3: Know, like try and recognize even just the I mean,
Speaker 3: there's so much power in just having the self awareness saying, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm having a fear response right now, instead of just
Speaker 3: following that fear response like Alice in Wonderland down the
Speaker 3: rabbit hole, being like should should I follow that rabbit
Speaker 3: or should I maybe just chill out and see what
Speaker 3: the situation is? So recognizing that in the moment, identifying it,
Speaker 3: you know, like name it to claim it, saying okay,
Speaker 3: so what is this? Is it? Is it dread? Do
Speaker 3: I just kind of like am I anxious that something's
Speaker 3: gonna happen? Am I actually terrified? Am I feeling just insecure?
Speaker 3: Like I just I don't have control over the situation?
Speaker 3: And like I said before, those two are usually like
Speaker 3: enough to start pulling you out of it and then
Speaker 3: really address what kind of outcomes can be managed here?
Speaker 3: Is there a strategy you can employ that would help
Speaker 3: to alleviate what you're feeling right now, or just even
Speaker 3: doing kind of what's the worst that could happen that
Speaker 3: if you play that little game you know in your head,
Speaker 3: what's the worst that could happen, and just keep going
Speaker 3: for like five or six times you get to a
Speaker 3: point you're like, Okay, I'm actually not gonna die. Then
Speaker 3: your brain's like okay, we're not gonna die. Cool, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna go back to say good right.
Speaker 2: Those are this is I'm gonna have to just carry
Speaker 2: that around on like an emergency bracelet. That's like in
Speaker 2: case of emergency. Ari Sarah Mischell asks how can someone
Speaker 2: be afraid of something they haven't necessarily experienced, like sharks
Speaker 2: for example? Like what triggers a fearful response if you've
Speaker 2: never even been scared of it in person?
Speaker 3: Part of that can be media, and sharks is such
Speaker 3: a good example because uh, like toasters and vending machines
Speaker 3: kill more people every year than sharks, right for real,
Speaker 3: And unless you are a scuba diver or a surfer, like,
Speaker 3: it's not a shark nado, yeah up in your hometown
Speaker 3: in Nebraska, Like why it's they're literally in the ocean. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but we have a tear of sharks because thinks Jaws,
Speaker 3: because they make a really good villain because they're not
Speaker 3: that cute, they have like funky teeth, they're big, they're
Speaker 3: cold blooded, and so they make a really good way
Speaker 3: for stories to have a big scary monster, because we
Speaker 3: like to be scared in a safe way and we
Speaker 3: want those big scary monsters, and sharks just fit the
Speaker 3: bill really well. So we have been trained to be
Speaker 3: scared of sharks, and part of that is good storytelling
Speaker 3: of the build up and not having control like you
Speaker 3: know in Jaws, where you have like the little swimmer
Speaker 3: on the top and why are they always women in
Speaker 3: bikinis that get eaten whatever, and so you you know,
Speaker 3: and we're not made to be in water. We can
Speaker 3: be in water for a short amount of time, but
Speaker 3: we're not that good. We're kind of clunky and like,
Speaker 3: and so we don't have full control over over our faculties.
Speaker 3: And that's already putting us in a vulnerable position. So
Speaker 3: already kind of like on edge. And then you have
Speaker 3: something coming from the deep and it's you know, like
Speaker 3: I just wooh, scary, move us us again, right.
Speaker 2: So you have darkness and you have the inability to
Speaker 2: I mean, you probably can't fight it because you just
Speaker 2: you got these dumb little arms. And then flight is
Speaker 2: difficult because you're you can't swim as fast as you
Speaker 2: can run.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't see it. Yeah, you probably can't hear
Speaker 3: it because it's under the ocean. They're not like, hey,
Speaker 3: I'm a shark.
Speaker 1: Of comment.
Speaker 3: Like, it's so all of our senses that keep us safe,
Speaker 3: that let us understand our outside world aren't really that
Speaker 3: great in the water, and that makes us vulnerable to
Speaker 3: actual death. And that's what is really good to tap
Speaker 3: into the big scary monster idea.
Speaker 2: So sharks just get a bad wrap, I know, or
Speaker 2: sharks vending machines watch out. I've did some research on
Speaker 2: that one. So once I was hosting and writing on
Speaker 2: the show about fearful situations and the science behind them,
Speaker 2: and so before we shot, I did some digging on
Speaker 2: air show fighter pilot dangers versus shark dangers versus vending machines.
Speaker 2: And it turns out that sharks in the US kill
Speaker 2: like one person every two years, and maybe one or
Speaker 2: two deaths a year happened in fighter jet aeronautic flights
Speaker 2: like air shows, but vending machines tipping over killed two
Speaker 2: people a year, usually people who've been trying to shake
Speaker 2: snacks free from their coiled grip. While I was on
Speaker 2: location with fighter pilots shooting the show, a vending machine
Speaker 2: at the Air Force base started to dispense some barbecue
Speaker 2: potato chips, about which I was very excited, but then
Speaker 2: just dangled them mercilessly at me. And these two fighter
Speaker 2: pilots were like, yeah, sometimes you just have to kind
Speaker 2: of shake the machine, and I was like, no, y'all
Speaker 2: can't go out like this. Of all the ways, this
Speaker 2: is the most dangerous. But it was fine and the chips,
Speaker 2: the chips were good, so and I was like, dang,
Speaker 2: vending machines are dangerous, yes, yep.
Speaker 3: And it's perception right, and data will only go so
Speaker 3: far to calling your perceived fears, like no one's afraid
Speaker 3: of any machine. Yet the data shows that more people
Speaker 3: die from vending machines than sharks. But our brain has
Speaker 3: that such a debias of like I'm still.
Speaker 2: Not going to be afraid of a vending machine, and
Speaker 2: that doesn't even count the cholesterol problems that might happen
Speaker 2: with a veny machine, or like you know the coronary
Speaker 2: disease that happens. I mean, you're talking to someone who
Speaker 2: used to eat ham sandwiches out of vending machines. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I had a job where that was dinner at like midnight,
Speaker 2: as I would go down and get a ham sandwich.
Speaker 2: So yeah, they're dangerous on a lot of front.
Speaker 1: You're flat out and your to do list is growing
Speaker 1: by the minute, but unfortunately so is your headache. And
Speaker 1: now you've gone from flat out to flattened. Luckily, panodal
Speaker 1: extra film coated tablets are boosted by caffeine and they
Speaker 1: get to work in as little as ten minutes for
Speaker 1: powerful relief. That's more than just paracetamol. That's one for
Speaker 1: panadal speed based on absorption data. Contains paracetamol. Always read
Speaker 1: the label or leaflet.
Speaker 2: Bob wants to know how clear is a line between
Speaker 2: anxiety and fear, and can you tell me a little
Speaker 2: bit more about those negative health effects of living with fear.
Speaker 3: Now, you said anxiety and fear pretty much the same thing,
Speaker 3: pretty much, saything. Yeah, Now we're talking about clinical level anxiety.
Speaker 3: That's going to be a actual thing that needs to
Speaker 3: be addressed in a professional setting, right, so that's when
Speaker 3: you aren't able to adequately handle your fear and your
Speaker 3: anxiety is negatively impacting your life. And it's that line
Speaker 3: is always fuzzy. It's kind of like addiction. Right where
Speaker 3: are you someone that just likes to drink or is
Speaker 3: the drinking impact in your life where you can't be successful,
Speaker 3: you're not having good relationships, you can't get to work
Speaker 3: or school. You know, where is that line? Not everyone
Speaker 3: that drinks wine needs to be treated at an addiction center,
Speaker 3: but there are some people that go to that level
Speaker 3: of the spectrum that they can't handle their consumption of
Speaker 3: alcohol and need to go be treated. I find addiction
Speaker 3: one of those things that's almost easier to talk about
Speaker 3: than fear and anxiety in society, which is why I
Speaker 3: use it as an analogy, because sometimes you know, the
Speaker 3: brain has gotten to the point where just having these
Speaker 3: strategies isn't going to help, and you need to kind
Speaker 3: of get to that root of you know, what's it
Speaker 3: trauma driven? Well, you know what's going on for that
Speaker 3: individual person and where that threshold is. It is seriously
Speaker 3: just like a person by a.
Speaker 2: Person thing and some of the health effects of fear,
Speaker 2: you're saying sell regeneration, skin, digestive health, like scare me
Speaker 2: a little bit more about not being scared, you.
Speaker 3: Know, And it's definitely not in my nature to try
Speaker 3: and bring the doom and gloom. But when we look
Speaker 3: at like more and a research is coming out associating
Speaker 3: the way we live our lives and the fear responses
Speaker 3: and the stress response to these like what we thought
Speaker 3: were unrelated like large issues in health. So the top
Speaker 3: killers of humans in the United States is heart disease, stroke,
Speaker 3: and cancer. So those are gonna be like your big three,
Speaker 3: and they're all associated with stress and fear. Now there's
Speaker 3: going to be a like genetic component of it, but
Speaker 3: you can't control your genetic component. You can control your
Speaker 3: stress level and you can control your lifestyle choices. So
Speaker 3: you know, those are the things you want to focus on.
Speaker 3: And just looking at the three, the big three, stroke,
Speaker 3: heart disease, and cancer, I mean I don't have statistically,
Speaker 3: but like they kill a lot of people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'm going to rattle these off as fast
Speaker 2: as I can so no one is too bummed out.
Speaker 2: But heart disease is six hundred and thirty thousand deaths
Speaker 2: a year. Cancer about six hundred thousand deaths a year
Speaker 2: and then lower respiratory diseases one hundred and fifty thousand
Speaker 2: a year. So okay, it's afraid of sharks and spiders
Speaker 2: and toilet snakes and public speaking, and I guess be
Speaker 2: more afraid of ice cream. It's so weird to think
Speaker 2: that gelato looks like your friend, but it could actually
Speaker 2: be your murderer. Like our typical American diet is just
Speaker 2: in menacing cahoots with stress and sleep deprivation.
Speaker 3: And they're all going to have that component of fear
Speaker 3: and stress because they are something that is cultivated every day,
Speaker 3: you know, Like cancer is one of those things that
Speaker 3: lifestyle choices are going to impact it. So it depends.
Speaker 3: Cancer is one of those really tricky things to talk about,
Speaker 3: which is one word because every cancer is very different
Speaker 3: and how it behaves and how it's going to come
Speaker 3: about in the body. But at the heart of it,
Speaker 3: it's a disease of the cell cycle. So during that
Speaker 3: cellular generation process, something went wrong. The cell is like
Speaker 3: chugging along, wanted to do its thing, and something went wrong,
Speaker 3: and it starts making cells that it didn't mean to make,
Speaker 3: and those are going to turn into those cancer cells,
Speaker 3: and depending on what type of cancer you're looking at,
Speaker 3: they're going to be an impact of how your body's
Speaker 3: constantly in that stress state and not focusing energy on
Speaker 3: cellular regeneration and keeping up the housekeeping. So like your
Speaker 3: cell house is getting super messy because your brain is like, no,
Speaker 3: we need to focus all the energy on the stress
Speaker 3: responses because we think that we're dying all the time,
Speaker 3: because our body is not meant to be in that
Speaker 3: constant state of oh my gosh, we're gonna.
Speaker 2: Diem And now I imagine also that must affect immunology
Speaker 2: and your immune system's ability to kind of police things
Speaker 2: and say, is this you need to send them cells
Speaker 2: after this thing?
Speaker 3: And well, yeah, I mean the biggest part of your
Speaker 3: immunity is contained in your digestive system. So if your
Speaker 3: digestive system is not getting any attention because your body's like, sorry,
Speaker 3: digestive system, we need to take care of other things.
Speaker 3: And then in the in the moments that you do
Speaker 3: calm down, a lot of people turn to food to
Speaker 3: help like get those like happy feelings going. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: they're shoving a bunch of food. Usually Nott's like, no,
Speaker 3: one stress eats broccoli like I've had such a hard day, baby,
Speaker 3: I just I need some broccoli before I can talk
Speaker 3: to you. Literally said, no one ever did.
Speaker 2: Some research on this, and I found at least one
Speaker 2: person who might argue otherwise. So on September fourteenth, twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: someone on the website twitter dot com with the handle
Speaker 2: blanket person tweeted quote, I think I'm addicted to broccoli.
Speaker 2: I'm going to fave and retweet this from theologies Twitter
Speaker 2: and perhaps, just perhaps we can follow up to see
Speaker 2: if he's still struggling with that. Meanwhile, the rest of
Speaker 2: us tend to make less healthy choices when we numb out.
Speaker 3: So what do you do. You go for the sugars,
Speaker 3: You go for the fads, You go for the crunchy,
Speaker 3: the things that you probably shouldn't be eating anyway, but
Speaker 3: you want to get some you know, happy brain chemicals happening,
Speaker 3: so you're shoving that into your body. Then maybe you
Speaker 3: go back on your email, you start the whole thing
Speaker 3: over again, and your body's not really properly digesting things.
Speaker 3: The bacterial flora in your digestive system isn't, you know,
Speaker 3: up to par. You can have bacterial die off with stress,
Speaker 3: which is decreasing your immunity. So it's like a total
Speaker 3: body thing.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I have to say also, I think that, like, if
Speaker 2: you're going to spend time doing serums and sheet masks,
Speaker 2: it's probably also good for your skin to just talk
Speaker 2: yourself through your fear storms, right, do you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? I have to say when I was meditating more,
Speaker 2: people were like, your skin looks amazing, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: and dang, I didn't. I was probably changing my body's
Speaker 2: priorities a little bit. I'll have to look into that,
Speaker 2: all right. I looked into this, and apparently it is
Speaker 2: a thing. So being in a constant state of fear
Speaker 2: ups your cortisol, which boosts oil production and gives you breakouts.
Speaker 2: It also boosts sugar levels in the blood, which breaks
Speaker 2: down collagen, and that makes your skin look old and
Speaker 2: wrinkly and dry. So if people are starting to tell
Speaker 2: you that you look like your dad and you're like, dude,
Speaker 2: I'm thirty, or you're missing out on sleep because you're
Speaker 2: up watching videos about what serums to spend forty six
Speaker 2: dollars on. There's so many serums, maybe we should all
Speaker 2: just give this meditation thing a good go and just
Speaker 2: calm this amygdalah meditation Like it seems kind of annoying
Speaker 2: if it's just like hocus focus, But when you look
Speaker 2: at it as a brief respite from terror and the
Speaker 2: chemical effects of just having like a fire alarm happening
Speaker 2: in your brain or body, You're like, yes, sure, Nomas day,
Speaker 2: let's do this. I mean it is it's cheaper than
Speaker 2: cheat masks, and it takes way less time per day
Speaker 2: than under ice backle and you just you might end
Speaker 2: up crying less in airport bathrooms. I'm talking exclusively to
Speaker 2: myself on that last one. Courtney Sobieski asks, why do
Speaker 2: we sometimes rescare ourselves if our minds wander, Like say,
Speaker 2: I listened to a scary story and then a week later,
Speaker 2: as I'm falling asleep, I think about the scary story
Speaker 2: and experience the fear reaction all over again, unprompted. Why
Speaker 2: does my body do that to me?
Speaker 3: She asks, Because we're kind of like masochistic, and we
Speaker 3: just there's that porst of our brain. Part of it
Speaker 3: is that we like to dress rehearse tragedy. Yeah, because
Speaker 3: there's a portion of our dysfunctional mind that thinks that
Speaker 3: if we just practice enough, we will be prepared, we
Speaker 3: will be safe. Right, We're constantly looking for safety, and
Speaker 3: even though safety really doesn't exist, that we're constantly striving
Speaker 3: for it. And by dress rehearsing that tragedy, our mind's like, okay, cool,
Speaker 3: I will be ready. I will be ready, and you
Speaker 3: keep going back to it. And part of it is
Speaker 3: we just have this like sick fascination with beating ourselves
Speaker 3: up or for stuff. I think that's that's never going
Speaker 3: to go away, But you definitely can manage it in
Speaker 3: a way where it stops being so negative on your life,
Speaker 3: and it's it's going to pop up, especially if you're
Speaker 3: someone that naturally goes to those places. It's not like
Speaker 3: it's going to just magically disappear. But you can turn
Speaker 3: down the dial a whole lot to where it's a
Speaker 3: whisper instead of like blaring in your ear. And you
Speaker 3: can't put us on anything else.
Speaker 2: A bullhorn of fear just a foghorn, but a foghorn's
Speaker 2: the next level man, lighthouse of anxiety. Jim person who
Speaker 2: is a wonderful person. I know him personally. Hi, Jim says,
Speaker 2: I'm so curious as to the ethical implications in studying fear.
Speaker 2: How does one conduct an experiment that requires someone to
Speaker 2: feel afraid that doesn't also harm them? So do scientists
Speaker 2: have to make sure to reinforce the subject's safety after
Speaker 2: they've made them feel afraid? So how is fear studied
Speaker 2: in a clinical aspect? How do clinicians do experiments on
Speaker 2: stress response?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so fear as like a study is massive, right,
Speaker 3: if you're going to focus on humans and like more
Speaker 3: of the clinical extremes, the outliers of the populations. In
Speaker 3: terms of ethics, it depends what ear you're looking at.
Speaker 3: So you know, pre nineteen eighties not great. Pre nineteen
Speaker 3: twenties really not great. Oh the bottomy is yeah, whould
Speaker 3: totally did that. And mental health is one of those
Speaker 3: things that there's still stigma around mental wellness and mental health.
Speaker 3: It used to be where people had no rights. If
Speaker 3: you were like mentally unwell, you were put in asylums,
Speaker 3: you were abused. I mean, so, I mean terms of ethics,
Speaker 3: wasn't a lot of ethics. So it depends on what
Speaker 3: time period you're looking at. If you're looking at modern studies,
Speaker 3: it's definitely and if its in a clinical situation and
Speaker 3: it's United States based. Again, every country's a little bit
Speaker 3: different on their laws. Now we have a lot of
Speaker 3: protections for patients and their well being, and it's part
Speaker 3: of the design process before whatever institution or organization you're at,
Speaker 3: you have to have really really like strong safeguards in
Speaker 3: there to be able to have that study approved. So
Speaker 3: now it's much more ethical. Usually it's it's partnered with
Speaker 3: a treatment. Right now, the newest thing, like I was
Speaker 3: saying before, is is VR and how we can use
Speaker 3: VR to give some of that experience and exposure therapy,
Speaker 3: but in the safest way, because it used to be
Speaker 3: you know, like, oh'm afraid of spiders. Okay, we're gonna
Speaker 3: put your hand in a box of spiders. You're like
Speaker 3: what most people just even like or not, No, I'll
Speaker 3: just be phrase spiders. That's fine. But with VR, because
Speaker 3: people know it's quote unquote fake, but it's kind of
Speaker 3: your brain doesn't know that, your like conscious brain knows that,
Speaker 3: but you're you're subconscious brain doesn't, and so they're a
Speaker 3: little bit more open to being like, Okay, I'll give
Speaker 3: it a try. Doesn't sound fun, but it doesn't sound
Speaker 3: as bad as some other exposure therapy, So it's going
Speaker 3: to open a lot more ability to research and just
Speaker 3: asking people, right, humans, Staying humans is hard, So a
Speaker 3: lot of it is asking, Okay, what are your perceptions,
Speaker 3: what is your level of fear on spiders before you
Speaker 3: went into the VR, what's your level after, and just
Speaker 3: really exploring that.
Speaker 2: By the way, VR stands for virtual reality, which is
Speaker 2: like those oculous rift like the huge goggles that cover
Speaker 2: your face and like an immersive, crazy situation. So I
Speaker 2: didn't want to interrupt before, but yeah, that's what that means.
Speaker 2: So virtual spiders may pave the way to calming your
Speaker 2: shit around three dimensional alive ones. And here's a secret.
Speaker 2: The alive ones, they usually just they want to hang
Speaker 2: out in your shower. They just want to look up
Speaker 2: at you. They want to hear you sing. You're like,
Speaker 2: they're nude Selene Dion, So do not smear your biggest
Speaker 2: fans into a paste with a paper towel.
Speaker 3: They love you. There's also some research in the clinical
Speaker 3: setting around depression and using really delicate electrical current and
Speaker 3: like you know, like outside of the skull, so it
Speaker 3: would be like an in office visit where you'd have
Speaker 3: like little pads and they'd put it, you know, like
Speaker 3: on your forehead and whar your skull to kind of
Speaker 3: like see if they can get away from so much
Speaker 3: medication based treatments and start to kind of almost reset
Speaker 3: the electrical currents in your brain. And some people find
Speaker 3: a lot of like you know, therapeutic stuff with that.
Speaker 3: So there's gonna be a lot more research again with
Speaker 3: people that are already struggling with that thing and seeing
Speaker 3: how those treatment options are are helping to impact them,
Speaker 3: to get them back to like a baseline where they're
Speaker 3: a higher functioning in that area.
Speaker 2: So instead of just like going to them all and
Speaker 2: kidnapping someone and saying I'm gonna show you a bunch
Speaker 2: of weapons and see how it's scared you get, it's
Speaker 2: some of the research is more like, you have a problem, Yeah,
Speaker 2: come on into this study, let's see if we can
Speaker 2: help with the problem.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and the other kind of aspect, and we've
Speaker 3: done this forever. A lot of the biology and physiological
Speaker 3: studies are usually done on soldiers because it's a captive audience.
Speaker 3: You don't really need their permission, and it's crazy, but yeah,
Speaker 3: there's I mean it's so you know, the ethics have
Speaker 3: gotten better around that. But in terms of fear, it's
Speaker 3: very common to study special ops groups or incoming cadets,
Speaker 3: and because they're you know, they're gonna be in the
Speaker 3: same place, they live together. So it's kind of like
Speaker 3: in in ecological studies, we love to study islands because
Speaker 3: you start to decrease the number of variables. So we
Speaker 3: study our military a lot, but then you run into
Speaker 3: the situation of those aren't everyone's experiences. Very few people
Speaker 3: when you look at the whole population, are ever going
Speaker 3: to be Navy seals. Like I can't even do a
Speaker 3: push up. I could do a plank, but like, I mean,
Speaker 3: not even a real push up, So they keep.
Speaker 2: Trying to recruit me, and I'm like, you guys, not now,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be in my peak form two three
Speaker 2: years from now. Ask me again, paying me then, right.
Speaker 2: But so we can use them though, maybe to look
Speaker 2: at trends or to look at models, and then apply
Speaker 2: that in once we've refined them into the greater population. Okay,
Speaker 2: oh that's fascinating. Jessica Guysler wants to know is there
Speaker 2: a biological advantage to a metaphobia. I haven't been able
Speaker 2: to shake it my entire life. I think that is
Speaker 2: the fear of barfing, because there is a barfing emoji,
Speaker 2: and I don't know about that. That might be a
Speaker 2: phobic question. I think that's a fear of barfing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've never heard of that, but I I mean,
Speaker 3: if there's a barfing emoji.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes that is. I just looked it up, and
Speaker 2: it is a fear of barfing. Okay.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't personally study phobia's, so I would
Speaker 3: be hesitant to say if there's I mean, the ability
Speaker 3: to vomit is a evolutionary adaptation for survival in and
Speaker 3: of itself, of all humans, which is one of the
Speaker 3: uh I know. I keep coming back to AAR and
Speaker 3: VR because I'm actually doing AR and VR work in education,
Speaker 3: so it's like on my mind. So there is a
Speaker 3: you know, as they're continuing to develop VR is that
Speaker 3: a lot of people getnauxious from it. And that's because
Speaker 3: when our body has perceived that something is making like
Speaker 3: our ability to see things correctly, it assumes that it's
Speaker 3: like something we've eaten that's bad. So our body is like,
Speaker 3: oh no, we've been poisoned eject you know, stomach context, right,
Speaker 3: this is why, like if you put someone else's glasses
Speaker 3: on that they will make you like oh, like yeah,
Speaker 3: it starts to make you dizzy or nauseous, or if
Speaker 3: your glasses aren't quite more than need to be. So
Speaker 3: it could be like something you know, over developed in
Speaker 3: that area, because I mean, it is a way that
Speaker 3: if we have eaten something bad, our body can purge it.
Speaker 3: But I've had a guess. My two cent answer.
Speaker 2: Isn't that nuts? So the little fluid filled tubes in
Speaker 2: your ears are like, Okay, I'm sensing motion. Yep, that
Speaker 2: was a corner. We're moving, Holy shit. And your body's
Speaker 2: like no, no, no, no, no dude, I'm just sitting here in
Speaker 2: the seat. I'm not even moving my legs or anything.
Speaker 2: So they have a meeting about it, and the consensus
Speaker 2: is we're hallucinating. We've eaten moldy garbage. We're hallucinating. Let's barf.
Speaker 2: So okay, this is not an episode on Phobia's but Jessica,
Speaker 2: I don't want to leave you hanging. So I did
Speaker 2: look it up and one method of getting over it
Speaker 2: involves confronting the fear head on and then abstaining from
Speaker 2: any rituals that you might do to avoid it, like
Speaker 2: running away or praying for the apocalypse. This kind of
Speaker 2: therapy is called exposure and response prevention aka ERP or ERP,
Speaker 2: which is coincidentally the noise I made before unpoisoning myself
Speaker 2: over my snake basin when I last had the stomach flu.
Speaker 2: I don't know how the exposure part works, by the way,
Speaker 2: but maybe they just take you to a spring break party.
Speaker 2: Let me know how it goes. Dane Goding wants to
Speaker 2: know does your body have the same chemical and autonomic
Speaker 2: reactions to fear when you're asleep and having a nightmare
Speaker 2: as it does when you're awake and conscious, So.
Speaker 3: The fear in stress response system is the same all
Speaker 3: the time. Oh, when we're asleep, our body has created
Speaker 3: a system to essentially paralyze us, so we don't act
Speaker 3: out our dreams, which is good for our bed partners,
Speaker 3: you know, like right, but we still have the physiological system.
Speaker 3: So like if you have like a really vivid nightmare
Speaker 3: and you wake up and you're like you're probably sweating, right,
Speaker 3: and you feel like you've been running, and like it
Speaker 3: takes you a second to figure out that it was
Speaker 3: just a dream. Our body is still having that physiological response,
Speaker 3: but because we're in sleep, we also have that kind
Speaker 3: of protective sheath of sleep that is preventing us from
Speaker 3: acting out our dreams. Now, sometimes people don't always have
Speaker 3: that strong of sheath, and that's why you can have
Speaker 3: like night terrors, or if you are taking a sleeping
Speaker 3: pill like ambient. This is why sometimes people will have
Speaker 3: you know, get up and drive a car or do
Speaker 3: things on sleep medication. So it doesn't always work, but
Speaker 3: that's usually why we wake up and we haven't like
Speaker 3: pummeled our bed partner, but we're all like sweaty and
Speaker 3: out of breath. Ah, that's so nuts.
Speaker 2: Anna Marie says, I have chronic night terrors. I had
Speaker 2: chronic night ters as a child, and I still have
Speaker 2: them occasionally as a thirty five year old. This is
Speaker 2: something that ever fully goes away.
Speaker 3: That's probably give me like a person by person basis.
Speaker 3: So usually night terrors are going to be like really
Speaker 3: extreme nightmares and they're recurring generally, you know, they could
Speaker 3: be associated with the trauma, like they're reliving that trauma
Speaker 3: because they haven't like fully like dealt with it. It
Speaker 3: could just be something that their psyche is trying to
Speaker 3: like act out and express in their dream state. So
Speaker 3: you know, it's kind of I don't think that anyone
Speaker 3: has one answer that fits all humans. Yeah, it also
Speaker 3: kind of probably depends on what they're doing to address it, right,
Speaker 3: Like are they getting professional therapy where they're able to say, like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is happening, and you know, oh, maybe this is why,
Speaker 3: or maybe you could address this kind of thing, or
Speaker 3: or they you know, just numbing it out with particular substances,
Speaker 3: or they just ignoring it. So I think it also
Speaker 3: depends on what that like individual or any individual is
Speaker 3: doing to kind of address.
Speaker 2: It's good, that's a good answer. Side note, I just
Speaker 2: watched a bunch of videos on YouTube about night terrors
Speaker 2: and I don't recommend it, although I do have to
Speaker 2: give credit to Britain for making sympathetic TV shows exploring
Speaker 2: these really frightening medical topics, such as their program titled
Speaker 2: quote Embarrassing Bodies. Is there anything embarrassing or challenging about
Speaker 2: Mary's job? What is the crappiest thing about your job?
Speaker 2: What is the hardest thing, what is the most annoying thing.
Speaker 2: Is it scheduling? Is it having to look at your
Speaker 2: own internal working? It's like, what's the is it email taxes?
Speaker 3: I would say, like I mean about my like professional job.
Speaker 3: It's constantly dealing with like imposter syndrome of being what
Speaker 3: I do is so weird and so interdisciplinary that I'm
Speaker 3: you know, specifically trained with in you know, have graduate
Speaker 3: degrees in biology, my science communication master'ses from Imperial College
Speaker 3: and those make me feel good about what I'm saying
Speaker 3: for about five seconds and then you know, it's it's
Speaker 3: one of those things that because it's so weird, I
Speaker 3: feel like, oh I'm not I'm not good enough to
Speaker 3: do these things, or like who am I to you know,
Speaker 3: like have this share this knowledge and stuff. And and
Speaker 3: that's why I'm always really really careful to say like
Speaker 3: I'm not a clinical psychologist. I don't see clients or patients,
Speaker 3: so that people know, like I'm I am getting this
Speaker 3: stuff from some of my own research, but also research
Speaker 3: in the literature, and that just continuing to convince myself
Speaker 3: that this work is important because other people will have
Speaker 3: value from it. That's a constant conversation for me because
Speaker 3: I think it's you know it's so much easier. I've
Speaker 3: been teaching at Santa se State University. This is my
Speaker 3: eleventh year now, and I could just I can continue
Speaker 3: doing exactly only that role until I retire, and it'd
Speaker 3: be safe and be comfortable. And I mean, I know
Speaker 3: that I'm a good teacher. I feel confident it because
Speaker 3: I'm doing it for eleven years. But that's not going
Speaker 3: to ever allow me to grow. And if I want
Speaker 3: to experience the world in a in a greater, more
Speaker 3: colorful way, then I have to do the things that
Speaker 3: scare me, and that means constantly pushing the like boundaries
Speaker 3: of my own personal boundaries. And I also do a
Speaker 3: lot of like public speaking, and every time, you know,
Speaker 3: like before I go on stage, I'm just like on
Speaker 3: the text with my friends, like oh my god, oh
Speaker 3: my god, I'm gonna die, Like okay, like at what
Speaker 3: point do you stop being freaked out by like a
Speaker 3: really big talk? And maybe that's never right, but I
Speaker 3: always feel really good coming off stage. I feel really
Speaker 3: good having that ability to connect with people and they
Speaker 3: find value in in these tips and tricks that they
Speaker 3: can then apply to their lives and and for me
Speaker 3: having that as like a bigger goal helps with the
Speaker 3: imposter syndrome. But I think I think everyone you know,
Speaker 3: like rolls with that of.
Speaker 2: Like so many people, it's amazing, and people that you would.
Speaker 3: Be like, you have a brother, you're the book.
Speaker 2: You make me have imposters, You're so amazing. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I think, you know. I I talk to the in
Speaker 2: the gynecology episode of about that, to the gynecologist who
Speaker 2: didn't feel comfortable saying she was a doctor for a while,
Speaker 2: and how the imposter syndrome is more prevalent in people
Speaker 2: who are capable and intelligence, which is so annoying because
Speaker 2: you're like, so if you have imposter syndrome, chances are
Speaker 2: you don't need to have it. That's there, you go,
Speaker 2: I fixed it. What's your favorite part about what you do?
Speaker 3: I think that it allows me to have I've taken
Speaker 3: a long time to craft a lifestyle that is really
Speaker 3: fairal where I'm a full digital nomad. I do everything
Speaker 3: on a weird schedule. I'm constantly traveling, and I love
Speaker 3: that lifestyle of not being in a tiny box and
Speaker 3: not having a time to like, you know, punch the clock.
Speaker 3: And that's something that I've really been able to find
Speaker 3: a lot of joy in that I could pare my
Speaker 3: research and my science can munication and my teaching and
Speaker 3: my love of travel and put all those things together
Speaker 3: is just you know, like really really special and I'm
Speaker 3: very privileged to be able to do that of you know,
Speaker 3: posting the like here's my office today with my laptop
Speaker 3: on the beach right, and it's it's such a unique
Speaker 3: experience that there's not all the jobs in the world
Speaker 3: that you could do that. So so really lucky that
Speaker 3: I can pull all these things in. Everything I do
Speaker 3: has been driven by my interests, which is also a privilege.
Speaker 3: Oft times, you know, people are in jobs they're like
Speaker 3: the reason why they're unhappy is because they have no
Speaker 3: interest in what they're doing. Where I do this because
Speaker 3: I love it. That means I don't have a distinct
Speaker 3: off switch. Yeah, it's you know, it's a lifestyle, not
Speaker 3: a job that you clock in and clock out of.
Speaker 3: My mind's always thinking about things, you know, like writing
Speaker 3: down stories that would be good to tell on stage.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about how I can do an activity in
Speaker 3: a workshop. So that's not for everyone. Yeah, a lot
Speaker 3: of people want to just like leave it at the office,
Speaker 3: you know, since my office is the planet. It there's
Speaker 3: you know, but it's such a privilege to be able
Speaker 3: to do that.
Speaker 2: It's funny too, because that was one of your mother's
Speaker 2: greatest fears, and that was one of your greatest fears,
Speaker 2: is leaving home, and that's one of your greatest joys.
Speaker 3: Now run towards your fear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is amazing. It almost makes it makes me
Speaker 2: want to write down what I am most afraid of
Speaker 2: and really examine it differently, because I think that I
Speaker 2: just let fear kind of knock on my door, and
Speaker 2: who is it come in? And for my life? You
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like, I don't really I don't
Speaker 2: necessarily like run toward the things that that might be
Speaker 2: scary and kind of get over them. So that's really inspiring.
Speaker 2: I can tell you that you do not have any
Speaker 2: of the marketings of an imposter. I think you are
Speaker 2: very good at what you do. Please take that throw
Speaker 2: it into the ocean. You're amazing. Thank you for letting
Speaker 2: me talk to you. This is the longest interview I've
Speaker 2: ever done because I cannot asking you questions. You are amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you so so much for me on.
Speaker 3: Oh, you're so so welcome.
Speaker 2: So for more about Marypoffinroth if you haven't already gingerly
Speaker 2: begun stocking her. Her website is Marypoffanroth dot com. She's
Speaker 2: Marypoffinroth on Twitter and Facebook and on Instagram. She's fear forward.
Speaker 2: Now to follow Ologies, We're at Ologies on Twitter and
Speaker 2: on Instagram. We're on patreon dot com slash Ologies if
Speaker 2: you'd like some perks there, like submitting your questions to
Speaker 2: ologists and seeing photos and videos. You can also fund
Speaker 2: the podcast and cover your body at ologiesmerch dot com,
Speaker 2: which was just updated by Bonnie Dutch. We have some
Speaker 2: new pin designs up by Shannon Feltis. Thank you both
Speaker 2: for that. You can join up on Facebook on the
Speaker 2: Ologies podcast group. Thank you, Hannahlippo Esquire she just passed
Speaker 2: the bar. And Aaron Talbert for admitting for your ole pop.
Speaker 2: And thank you to Stephen Ray Morris for editing and
Speaker 2: cutting this all up and putting it back together for
Speaker 2: me every week. You're the best. The music was written
Speaker 2: and performed by Nick Thorburn of the band Islands. You
Speaker 2: should check them out. And you know what, Okay, I
Speaker 2: have an idea. What if you ask smart people dumb questions,
Speaker 2: because thinking the questions are dumb is actually a fictional fear.
Speaker 2: No questions are dumb. I just say that so that
Speaker 2: you don't judge yourself. Okay, so if you hang through
Speaker 2: the credits, you know I tell secrets the end of
Speaker 2: every episode, and this one I thought i'd stay on brand.
Speaker 2: I wrote this on an airplane somewhere over Tennessee, just
Speaker 2: tippity tapping away. So I thought i'd make a list
Speaker 2: of my fears and tell you what they are. One
Speaker 2: getting divorced, which is probably why I've never gotten married.
Speaker 2: Two mismanaging money, so I'm so afraid of overspending my
Speaker 2: money like an idiot, or like mc hammer did in
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties. God bless them that. I just never
Speaker 2: buy myself shoes or clothes, so I could probably change
Speaker 2: that and live a little. Another fear teeth falling out.
Speaker 2: You know those dreams where your teeth fall out. I
Speaker 2: do not want that, irl, which also reminds me I'm
Speaker 2: out of dental flus. So okay, everyone, let's read up
Speaker 2: on I don't know, retirement accounts and maybe treat yourself
Speaker 2: to some shoes on sale, and let's practice good oral hygiene.
Speaker 2: I hope you may end up making a list of
Speaker 2: things that have been nagging at you. I mean, there
Speaker 2: are some things we can't change, like the death of
Speaker 2: people we love or just the inevitable. Our butts are
Speaker 2: going to get droopy, but we can say to ourselves
Speaker 2: that I'll live that sorrow when it comes. You can't
Speaker 2: pre grieve anything. You can only enjoy what you have
Speaker 2: right now and deal with the fears that you have
Speaker 2: and you can do something about so I hope that helps.
Speaker 2: I hope you go out and do the things you
Speaker 2: want to do. Okay, bye bye pacodermatology, homeology or doo zoology, lithology, minology, meteorology, pology, anthology, zeriology, elinology.
Speaker 3: This is the song that probably