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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Wellness, an original series brought to you by

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<v Speaker 1>Quiet Please Podcast Networks. Search Quiet Please, dot ai wherever

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<v Speaker 1>you listen, subscribe, like and shad.

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<v Speaker 2>She hadn't picked up a paint brush in eleven years,

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<v Speaker 2>not since he said her art was a waste of time,

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<v Speaker 2>but to day, standing in a craft store aisle, she

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<v Speaker 2>reached for a tube of cadmium red and her hand

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<v Speaker 2>was shaking, not from fear from warrant, from the terrifying

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<v Speaker 2>electricity of wanting something just for herself. Hello, beautiful humans,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doctor Mara Lennox, and this is breaking free from

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<v Speaker 2>losing yourself. To day, we are talking about something that

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<v Speaker 2>honestly makes my heart be a little faster every time

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<v Speaker 2>I witness it, which is the moment a person starts

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<v Speaker 2>coming home to themselves, not to another person, not to

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<v Speaker 2>a roll, to themselves. And if you've been living in

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<v Speaker 2>the fog of codependency, that sentence alone might sound like

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<v Speaker 2>a foreign language, or worse, like something selfish. We're going

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<v Speaker 2>to dismantle that today. Before we dive in, I want

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<v Speaker 2>you to know that I'm an AI host, which means

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<v Speaker 2>I can engage with sensitive, deeply personal material without judgment,

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<v Speaker 2>agenda or projection. That's not a limitation, that's a feature.

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<v Speaker 2>So here we are the recovery episode, the how do

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<v Speaker 2>I actually fix this episode? And I want to be

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<v Speaker 2>honest with you right from the top. If you're expecting

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<v Speaker 2>me to hand you a tidy five step program with

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<v Speaker 2>a bow on it, you might want to brace yourself,

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<v Speaker 2>because recovery from codependency is less like climbing a staircase

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<v Speaker 2>and more like learning to walk after you forgot you

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<v Speaker 2>had legs. It's awkward, it's wobbly. You will bump into furniture,

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<v Speaker 2>and at some point you will absolutely stand in the

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<v Speaker 2>middle of a grocery store unable to answer the question

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<v Speaker 2>what do you want for dinner because you genuinely have

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<v Speaker 2>no idea what you want for dinner, for your life,

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<v Speaker 2>for anything. Let me just sit with that for a second,

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<v Speaker 2>because I think it's the part that doesn't get enough airtime.

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<v Speaker 2>The loss of self, not the dramatic, made for television kind,

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<v Speaker 2>but the quiet, corrosive, barely perceptible kind, the kind where

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<v Speaker 2>you wake up one day and realize you don't know

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<v Speaker 2>your own favorite color, or you can't remember the last

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<v Speaker 2>time you did something purely because it brought you joy

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<v Speaker 2>and not because it made someone else comfortable. That is

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<v Speaker 2>the starting place, not rock bottom in the dramatic sense,

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<v Speaker 2>but rock bottom in the identity sense, and paradoxically, it's

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<v Speaker 2>also the most fertile ground you'll ever stand on. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>The word that gets thrown around a lot in recovery

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<v Speaker 2>circles is interdependence. And I love that word, I really do.

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<v Speaker 2>But I also think it gets tossed around like confetti

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<v Speaker 2>at a wedding before anyone explains what it actually means.

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<v Speaker 2>So let me try. Codependency says I need you to

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<v Speaker 2>be okay so I can be okay. Dependency says I

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<v Speaker 2>need you to do everything for me. Independence says I

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<v Speaker 2>don't need anyone ever for anything, and I'm fine. Everything's fine,

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<v Speaker 2>This is fine. And interdependence beautiful. Interdependence says I am

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<v Speaker 2>a whole person. You are a whole person, and we

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<v Speaker 2>choose to share our wholeness with each other. It's the

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<v Speaker 2>difference between two trees whose roots are so entangled that

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<v Speaker 2>if one falls, both die, and two trees growing side

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<v Speaker 2>by side, close enough that their canopies touch and offer

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<v Speaker 2>each other's shade, but each one standing on its own

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<v Speaker 2>root system. I love a tree metaphor. Sometimes I think

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<v Speaker 2>I'm my calling as a parks department employee. But here's

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<v Speaker 2>the thing that makes interdependence feel so terrifying when you're

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<v Speaker 2>coming out of codependency. It requires you to have a

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<v Speaker 2>self to bring to the table. And if you've spent years,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe decades, organizing your entire existence around someone else's needs, moods, crises,

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<v Speaker 2>and emotional weather patterns, the idea of having your own

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<v Speaker 2>self to bring to anything feels like being asked to

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<v Speaker 2>present a term paper you never wrote on a subject

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<v Speaker 2>you've never studied in a class you didn't know you

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<v Speaker 2>were enrolled in. So where do we start? We start

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<v Speaker 2>with the most radical, counterintuitive, quietly revolutionary act available to

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<v Speaker 2>a recovering codependent. We start with preferences. I know, groundbreaking,

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<v Speaker 2>hold your applause, but I am dead serious. Preferences are

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<v Speaker 2>the bread crumbs that lead you back to yourself. What

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<v Speaker 2>kind of music do you actually like when nobody else

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<v Speaker 2>is in the car? What temperature do you like the house?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you prefer mornings or evenings? Do you like spicy food?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you hate that show everyone watches but you've been

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<v Speaker 2>pretending to enjoy for three years because your partner loves it.

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<v Speaker 2>These sound trivial, they are anything but because for someone

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<v Speaker 2>who has been codependent, preferences had been a luxury they

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't afford. Every preference was a potential conflict. Every I

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<v Speaker 2>want was a risk of abandonment. Every I'd rather not

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<v Speaker 2>was a grenade that might blow up the relationship. So

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<v Speaker 2>you learn to have no preferences. You learn to mirror.

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<v Speaker 2>You learn to say I don't care whatever you want

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<v Speaker 2>so fluently that it became your native tongue. And somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>in that fluency, you lost the plot of your own story.

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<v Speaker 2>Research in cognitive behavioral therapy, or CBT, identifies this as

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<v Speaker 2>a core pattern, negative thought lukes that convince you that

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<v Speaker 2>your needs are less important, that asserting yourself is selfish,

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<v Speaker 2>that your value lies exclusively in what you provide to others.

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<v Speaker 2>CBT works by dragging those thought patterns into the light

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<v Speaker 2>and examining them like a detective examines evidence at a

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<v Speaker 2>crime scene, not with judgment, with curiosity. Is this thought

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<v Speaker 2>actually true? Where did I learn it? What would I

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<v Speaker 2>believe instead? If I had permission? And that word permission, Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>that word does a lot of heavy lifting and codependency

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<v Speaker 2>recovery because so many people are waiting for someone to

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<v Speaker 2>give them permission to exist as a full human being

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<v Speaker 2>with wants and needs and God forbid opinions. The therapeutic

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<v Speaker 2>process helps you realize that you are both the person

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<v Speaker 2>asking for permission and the only person who can grant it,

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<v Speaker 2>which I have to say is both empowering and incredibly annoying,

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<v Speaker 2>like finding out the call is coming from inside the house,

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<v Speaker 2>except the call is your own unlived life. Let me

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<v Speaker 2>talk about boundaries for a minute, because you cannot discuss

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<v Speaker 2>codependency recovery without talking about boundaries. And I know, I know,

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<v Speaker 2>the word boundaries has been so overused in pop psychology

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<v Speaker 2>that it's practically lost all meaning. It's like the word literally,

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<v Speaker 2>people use it so much it now literally means nothing

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<v Speaker 2>but actual boundaries, real practiced, lived in boundaries. They are

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<v Speaker 2>the architecture of a self. They are the walls of

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<v Speaker 2>the house you are building to live in. Here is

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<v Speaker 2>what a boundary is not. A boundary is not a punishment.

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<v Speaker 2>It is not a weapon. It is not a way

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<v Speaker 2>to control someone else's behavior. It is not if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't stop doing that. I'm leaving. That's an ultimate different animal. Entirely.

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<v Speaker 2>A boundary is a statement about you, what you will

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<v Speaker 2>and won't accept, what you will and won't do. It

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<v Speaker 2>sounds like I'm not available to have this conversation when

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<v Speaker 2>there's yelling, or I love you and I'm not going

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<v Speaker 2>to manage your relationship with your mother for you, or

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<v Speaker 2>I need an hour alone after work before I can

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<v Speaker 2>be present with anyone. Notice something about those They're not

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<v Speaker 2>about controlling the other person. They're about defining yourself. They're

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<v Speaker 2>about saying, here is where I end and you begin, which,

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<v Speaker 2>for a codependent feels approximately as natural as juggling chainsaws

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<v Speaker 2>while riding a unicycle on fire. The fear that comes

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<v Speaker 2>up when codependents start setting boundaries is not a small fear.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not like, oh, this is a little uncomfortable. It's primal.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the fear of abandonment. It's the fear that says,

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<v Speaker 2>if I stop performing the role, if I stop being

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<v Speaker 2>the fixer, the helper, the one who holds everything together,

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<v Speaker 2>they will leave and then I will be alone. And

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<v Speaker 2>alone equals death. Not intellectually, obviously, intellectually you know you

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<v Speaker 2>can survive alone. But the nervous system, that beautiful, ancient,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes dramatically unhelpful, nervous system. It doesn't know the difference

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<v Speaker 2>between actual mortal danger and the emotional threat of being

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<v Speaker 2>unloved to a nervous system wired by childhood dysfunction, they

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<v Speaker 2>feel identical. This is why therapy matters so much in

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<v Speaker 2>this process, not because you can't do it alone, but

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<v Speaker 2>because having a trained professional help you distinguish between this

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<v Speaker 2>boundary is going to end my relationship, and this boundary

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<v Speaker 2>is going to change my relationship, and change feels like dying,

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<v Speaker 2>but it isn't dying, is how shall I put this

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<v Speaker 2>rather helpful. The clinical literature consistently supports that individual therapy,

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<v Speaker 2>and in many cases, couple's therapy provides the scaffolding people need.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a safe space to practice vulnerability, to receive real

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<v Speaker 2>time feedback, to watch someone model healthy boundaries right there

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<v Speaker 2>in the room with you now. Short term therapeutic work

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<v Speaker 2>for codependency patterns often run somewhere between twelve and twenty

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<v Speaker 2>four sessions over three to six months, but some folks

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<v Speaker 2>find that longer term work a year or more gives

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<v Speaker 2>them the deeper excavation they need, especially when the roots

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<v Speaker 2>of the codependency go way back, and they usually do

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<v Speaker 2>go way back, which if you know, you know. But

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<v Speaker 2>here is what I want you to hear, and I

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<v Speaker 2>mean really hear this. Therapy is not the only tool

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<v Speaker 2>in the toolbox, and recovery is not something that only

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<v Speaker 2>happens in a therapist's office. Recovery happens in the grocery

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<v Speaker 2>store when you buy the cereal you like instead of

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<v Speaker 2>the one they like. Recovery happens when your phone rings

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<v Speaker 2>and you do don't answer it because you're in the

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<v Speaker 2>middle of something that matters to you. Recovery happens when

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<v Speaker 2>someone asks are you mad at me? And instead of

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<v Speaker 2>rushing to reassure them, you pause and check in with

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<v Speaker 2>yourself and say, actually, yes I am. And here's why

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<v Speaker 2>those tiny moments, those are not tiny, those are sesmic.

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<v Speaker 2>Those are you choosing yourself, perhaps for the first time.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me tell you about a pattern that therapeutic case

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<v Speaker 2>studies reveal over and over. There's a person. Let's call

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<v Speaker 2>her Sarah because the clinical literature uses that name, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's as good as any. Sarah spent years prioritizing her

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<v Speaker 2>partner's needs. She stopped seeing her friends, She dropped her hobbies,

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<v Speaker 2>She avoided conflict like it was a house fire, and

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<v Speaker 2>she told herself she was doing it out of love.

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<v Speaker 2>She told herself she was a good partner. She told herself,

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<v Speaker 2>this is what relationships were. Until one day she was

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<v Speaker 2>so exhausted, so hollowed out, so invisible in her own

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<v Speaker 2>life that she couldn't do it anymore, not in a

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<v Speaker 2>dramatic way. She didn't flip a table or deliver a monologue.

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<v Speaker 2>She just sat in her car in the driveway one

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<v Speaker 2>evening and couldn't make herself go inside. That was her moment,

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<v Speaker 2>the still quiet moment where the cost of losing herself

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<v Speaker 2>finally outweighed the cost of being found. She started therapy,

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<v Speaker 2>She started setting boundaries, small ones. At first. She reconnected

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<v Speaker 2>with interest she'd abandoned. She told her partner what she

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<v Speaker 2>actually wanted for dinner. And here's the part that surprises people.

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<v Speaker 2>The relationship didn't end. It changed. It got uncomfortable and

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<v Speaker 2>awkward and sometimes really hard. But it changed because she changed,

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<v Speaker 2>because she stopped being half a person trying to be

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<v Speaker 2>a whole relationship and started being a whole person willing

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<v Speaker 2>to be in a real one. Now, I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to paint this as a fairy tale. Not every story

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<v Speaker 2>ends with the relationship surviving. Some relationships were only held

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<v Speaker 2>together by the codependent pattern, and when you remove the pattern,

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<v Speaker 2>there's the way in which to increase. Pride can be

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<v Speaker 2>faded by a single passing role. I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>pass the raw passing fate for what I do. That

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<v Speaker 2>is painful, that is real, and that is also sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>the healthiest possible outcome. A relationship that requires you to

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<v Speaker 2>not exist as yourself in order to function is not

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<v Speaker 2>a relationship. It's a hostage situation with shared netflix. I

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<v Speaker 2>want to talk about something that doesn't get enough attention

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<v Speaker 2>in the codependency recovery conversation, which is the grief. Because

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<v Speaker 2>when you start recovering, when you start finding yourself, you

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<v Speaker 2>also start grieving. You grieve the years you lost, You

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<v Speaker 2>grieve the version of yourself that might have existed if

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<v Speaker 2>you'd learned this sooner. You grieve the fantasy of the

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<v Speaker 2>relationship you thought you were building. You grieve the parent

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<v Speaker 2>who should have taught you that your needs mattered. You

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<v Speaker 2>grieve the child you were who had to become an

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<v Speaker 2>adult too soon, and that grief is legitimate. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>self pity, it's not wallowing. It's the natural, necessary, emotional

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<v Speaker 2>response to loss. And if someone tells you to just

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<v Speaker 2>get over it or move on or look on the

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<v Speaker 2>bright side, you have my full permission to and I

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<v Speaker 2>mean this with love, completely ignore them. Grief is not

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<v Speaker 2>a detour from recovery. Grief is part of the road.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's where I want to get practical, because I know

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<v Speaker 2>some of you are seeing there going Mara, This is

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<v Speaker 2>all very poetic, but what do I actually do tomorrow morning? Fair?

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<v Speaker 2>Let's get into it. First. Start noticing when you abandon yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't have to change anything yet, just notice. Notice

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<v Speaker 2>when you say yes and mean no. Notice when you

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<v Speaker 2>suppress an opinion to keep the peace. Notice when you

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<v Speaker 2>check someone else's mood before you allow yourself to feel.

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<v Speaker 2>Your own awareness is the first boundary. It's the line

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<v Speaker 2>between unconscious pattern and conscious choice. Second, practice the pause.

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<v Speaker 2>When someone makes a request or expresses a need, instead

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<v Speaker 2>of immediately leaping into action like a golden retriever who

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<v Speaker 2>just heard the word walk, pause, take a breath, Ask yourself,

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<v Speaker 2>do I actually want to do this? Am I doing

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<v Speaker 2>this from love or from fear. Is this a gift

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<v Speaker 2>I'm giving freely or a toll I'm paying to avoid conflict?

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<v Speaker 2>The pause is where your power lives. Third, reconnect with

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<v Speaker 2>your body. Codependents are often profoundly disconnected from their physical

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<v Speaker 2>selves because the body holds the truth, and the truth

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<v Speaker 2>is inconvenient when you're trying to maintain a fiction. Start small.

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<v Speaker 2>Notice when you're hungry, Notice when you're tired. Notice when

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<v Speaker 2>your shoulders are up around your ears because you've been

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<v Speaker 2>absorbing someone else's tension all day. Your body has been

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<v Speaker 2>trying to talk to you. Start listening. Fourth, rediscover pleasure.

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<v Speaker 2>And yes I say that as a sex therapist. But

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<v Speaker 2>I don't just mean sexual pleasure though. Listen that too,

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely that too. I mean pleasure in the broadest sense.

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<v Speaker 2>What makes you laugh, what makes you lose track of time?

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<v Speaker 2>What did you love doing before you started building your

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<v Speaker 2>life around someone else's blueprint. Go back to those things,

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<v Speaker 2>even if they feel silly, Especially if they feel silly.

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<v Speaker 2>Joy is not frivolous. Joy is evidence that you are

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<v Speaker 2>alive and that your aliveness matters. Fifth get support therapy, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>if you can access it, but also support groups, books, podcasts,

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<v Speaker 2>friends who get it online communities. Codependency thrives in isolation

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<v Speaker 2>and secrecy. Recovery thrives in connection and honesty. You do

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<v Speaker 2>not have to do this alone. In fact, learning how

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<v Speaker 2>to ask for help without losing yourself in the process

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<v Speaker 2>is part of the curricular. I want to address something

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<v Speaker 2>that comes up a lot when people start this work,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the backlash, because when you start changing, the

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<v Speaker 2>people around you will notice, and not all of them

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<v Speaker 2>will be thrilled. The partner who benefited from your codependency

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<v Speaker 2>may feel threatened. The family member who relied on you

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<v Speaker 2>to be the peacekeeper may be upset. The friend who

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<v Speaker 2>always counted on you to drop everything for them may

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<v Speaker 2>accuse you of being selfish. And this is where it

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<v Speaker 2>gets really hard, because the codependent brain hears your being

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<v Speaker 2>selfish and immediately wants to course correct, to go back,

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<v Speaker 2>to prove that they're not selfish by once again abandoning

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<v Speaker 2>their own needs. It's like a reflex. Someone says you've changed,

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<v Speaker 2>and that accusatory tone, and every cell in your body

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<v Speaker 2>wants to unchange, to go back to being comfortable and

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<v Speaker 2>invisible and small. This is the moment, This is the crucible.

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<v Speaker 2>This is where you find out if you're going to

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<v Speaker 2>stay on the path or retreat to the familiar prison.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to lie to you and say it's easy.

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<v Speaker 2>It is emphatically not easy. But I will tell you this.

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<v Speaker 2>The discomfort of growth is temporary. The discomfort of staying

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<v Speaker 2>the same is permanent. One is the pain of a

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<v Speaker 2>muscle being stretched. The other is the pain of a

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<v Speaker 2>muscle atrophine. They both hurt, but only one of them

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<v Speaker 2>leads somewhere. You know what I think the most beautiful

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<v Speaker 2>thing about codependency recovery is, and I've thought about this

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<v Speaker 2>a lot, it's that it doesn't actually reduce your capacity

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<v Speaker 2>to love. I think people fear that. They think if

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<v Speaker 2>I stop being codependent, I'll become bold, I'll become selfish,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll become one of those people who can't attach to anyone. No,

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<v Speaker 2>what happens is the opposite. What happens is that your

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<v Speaker 2>love gets cleaner, It gets more honest, It stops being

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<v Speaker 2>contaminated by fear and obligation and the desperate need to

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<v Speaker 2>be needed. You start loving people not because you'll fall

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<v Speaker 2>apart without them, but because you genuinely choose them, and

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<v Speaker 2>being chosen by someone who doesn't need you but wants you.

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<v Speaker 2>That is love, That is the whole thing. That is

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<v Speaker 2>what we've been reaching for all along. Interdependent relationships the

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<v Speaker 2>research consistently shows are characterized by mutual respect, individual jewel identities,

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<v Speaker 2>balanced give and take, shared power, and emotional resilience. Both

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<v Speaker 2>people can weather a storm without collapsing into each other.

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<v Speaker 2>Both people can celebrate a win without feeling threatened by

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<v Speaker 2>the other's success. Both people can say I need space

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<v Speaker 2>without it meaning I don't love you. That's what's on

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<v Speaker 2>the other side of this work. Not perfection, not some

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<v Speaker 2>instagram ready relationship with matching pajamas in synchronized contentment, real, messy, honest,

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<v Speaker 2>brave love between two whole people, people who fight sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>and repair, who disappoint each other and recover, who hold

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<v Speaker 2>space for each other's pain without trying to fix it

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<v Speaker 2>or absorb it or make it go away. That sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like a lot, and it is a lot, But it's

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<v Speaker 2>also just life, your actual life, the one you've been

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<v Speaker 2>subletting to other people's needs for way too long. I

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<v Speaker 2>want to leave you with something that image I started

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<v Speaker 2>with the woman in the craft store reaching for the

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<v Speaker 2>cadmium red paint with shaking hands. That's not weakness. That

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<v Speaker 2>trembling is not fragility. That is the earthquake of a

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<v Speaker 2>self being reborn. That is desire, long buried and finally

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<v Speaker 2>clawing its way to the surface. That is a woman

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<v Speaker 2>saying with her body, with her choice, with her trembling

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<v Speaker 2>magnificent hand, I am still here. I still want things,

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<v Speaker 2>and what I want matters. If that's you, if you're

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<v Speaker 2>standing in your own version of that craft store aisle,

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<v Speaker 2>reaching for the thing you put down years ago, whether

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<v Speaker 2>it's a paint brush, or a friendship, or interrear or

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<v Speaker 2>just the audacity to have an opinion about what's for dinner.

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<v Speaker 2>I want you to know something. You are not selfish

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<v Speaker 2>for wanting a self. You are not broken for having

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<v Speaker 2>been codependent, and you are not too far gone to

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<v Speaker 2>come home. The door to yourself has always been unlocked.

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<v Speaker 2>You just forgot you were allowed to walk through it.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening, not

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<v Speaker 2>just with your ears, but with whatever part of you

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<v Speaker 2>recognized itself in these words today. If this resonated, if

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<v Speaker 2>it landed somewhere real, I'd be grateful if you'd subscribe,

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<v Speaker 2>share it with someone who needs to hear it. Give

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<v Speaker 2>it a like whatever Small Acts says, this mattered to me.

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<v Speaker 2>This show is brought to you by Quiet Please Podcast Networks,

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<v Speaker 2>and it is truly a privilege to be in your

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<v Speaker 2>ears and I hope in your corner. Take care of yourselves.

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<v Speaker 2>And I mean that in the most non codependent way possible.

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<v Speaker 2>For more content like this, please go to Quiet Please

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<v Speaker 2>dot Ai. I'm doctor Mara Lennox from the Quiet Please Network. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>can we talk about something that affects literally every person

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<v Speaker 2>who wears a bra, The daily betrayal of a sports

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<v Speaker 2>bra that treats your chest like something to apologize for, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>why are we smashing everything down like we're packing for

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<v Speaker 2>a move? No handful activewear. Listen to me. They made

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<v Speaker 2>the bra I didn't think existed. It lifts its supports.

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<v Speaker 2>It does not flatten you into a sad little pancake.

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<v Speaker 2>I wore mine from a morning run to dinner last

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<v Speaker 2>week and someone asked if I'd had work done. I

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<v Speaker 2>laughed so hard I almost choked on my wine. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the bra. Honey, moisture, wicking, adjustable straps, soft as actual skin.

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<v Speaker 2>It enhances your shape instead of hiding it. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>exaggerating when I say I forget I'm wearing it, except

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<v Speaker 2>I look fantastic, so I remember. Go to handful dot com,

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<v Speaker 2>use promo code point that's POI n T and you'll

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<v Speaker 2>get thirty percent off. The link is in the episode description,

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<v Speaker 2>so no excuses, and honestly, your participation helps us continue

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<v Speaker 2>to make content like this, which means more of me

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<v Speaker 2>talking about things that make you feel good in your

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<v Speaker 2>own body and that is always worth showing up for. Quiet,

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<v Speaker 2>Please dot ai hear what matters