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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening. There are two parts to every crime story,
Speaker 2: how they did it and why they got caught. This
Speaker 2: book is about the second part and how it changes
Speaker 2: the way we catch serial killers. No two stories about
Speaker 2: the capture of a serial killer are the same. Sometimes
Speaker 2: the killers make crucial mistakes, other times investigators get lucky,
Speaker 2: and the process of profiling, hunting, and apprehending these predators
Speaker 2: has changed radically over time, particularly in the field of
Speaker 2: criminal forensics, which has exploded in the last ten to
Speaker 2: fifteen years. Laser ablation, video spectral analysis, cyber sleuthing, and
Speaker 2: even DNA based genetic genealogy are now crucial tools in
Speaker 2: solving murders, including the recent capture of the so called
Speaker 2: Golden State Killer. This book, in the new Profiles and
Speaker 2: Crime series, tells the story history of forensics through the
Speaker 2: capture stories of some of the most notorious serial killers
Speaker 2: going back almost a century. The killers include Rodney al Keala,
Speaker 2: a serial rapist and murderer sometimes called Dating Game Killer
Speaker 2: for his appearance on that TV show No One Knows
Speaker 2: the exact number of his victims, ziro Shira Rishi, the
Speaker 2: suicide killer from Zama, Japan, who dismembered nine victims and
Speaker 2: stored their bodies in his refrigerator. Aleen Warnos one of
Speaker 2: the rare female serial killers. She shot seven men in
Speaker 2: Florida and was turned in by an accomplice. Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 2: the Milwaukee Cannibal, and Bobby Joe Long, both identified by
Speaker 2: survivors Ted Bundy and David Berkowitz, son of Sam, who
Speaker 2: both made mistakes. Ludwog Testnau, who killed several children in Germany,
Speaker 2: was caught through new methods in forensic investigation that could
Speaker 2: distinguish human from animal blood. The book they were featuring
Speaker 2: this evening is How to Catch a Killer. Hunting and
Speaker 2: Capturing the World's Most Notorious serial Killers with my special
Speaker 2: guest journalist and authorman, Professor Katherine Ramslin. Welcome back to
Speaker 2: the program and Thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 2: Katherine Ramslin, Hi, thanks.
Speaker 7: For having me. It's always funded to talk with you
Speaker 7: and I appreciating on the show.
Speaker 2: Again, Thank you very much. Were always one of my
Speaker 2: favorite authors. Of the incredible amount of true crime classic
Speaker 2: books that you've written, over sixty books. Let's get right
Speaker 2: to this book, How to Catch a Killer, Hunting and
Speaker 2: Capturing the World's most notorious serial killers. In your acknowledgments,
Speaker 2: you list several FBI profilers. Give us a few names
Speaker 2: of some of these profilers and what they gave you
Speaker 2: access to.
Speaker 7: Well, most of them were retired. I worked with them
Speaker 7: either in research projects or on their own books. I
Speaker 7: started working with John douglas book Callblicases a Haunted. We
Speaker 7: did the research for most of the cases and then
Speaker 7: we got together. He talked it through Mark Olshaker was
Speaker 7: his co writer in that book, so I worked in that.
Speaker 7: I worked with Mark Staffrick and a book about spree
Speaker 7: killers where we classified s free killers from counties all
Speaker 7: over the world. We had to really the most probably
Speaker 7: the most cases have any database on that and that
Speaker 7: just that book came out in November, and I worked
Speaker 7: with Greg McQuary on a book of his cases. I
Speaker 7: was about to work with Bob wrestlers when he got sick,
Speaker 7: and then unfortunately he passed away, so I didn't get
Speaker 7: to do work with him, but I interviewed him, I
Speaker 7: interviewed case.
Speaker 5: It was.
Speaker 7: On and on. So sometimes I would in still done
Speaker 7: on cases if they just wanted to pass things by
Speaker 7: me from the kind of research i'pe in doing. So
Speaker 7: it was that's really it, mostly the researchain cases for
Speaker 7: them or co writing books with them.
Speaker 2: You're right that you analyzed three hundred cases for identification
Speaker 2: and arrest details and identified more than a dozen distinct
Speaker 2: variables that play a key role in their capture. And
Speaker 2: that's what this book is obviously. And then we talk
Speaker 2: about the can you write about in your book. It's
Speaker 2: part one is forensic innovation, and you list the mad carpenter,
Speaker 2: the footbed killer, the clean cup killer, the Vienna Courier BTK,
Speaker 2: and the Golden State killer in that first part. In
Speaker 2: part two it's police procedure, and you list the cannibal killer,
Speaker 2: the killer clown, the dating game killer, the slave master,
Speaker 2: the ABC killer, the hanging pro, the grudge collector, the
Speaker 2: choke and stroke killer, and you have Part three Mistakes
Speaker 2: and Calculations, The Chicago Scamera, the Moor's Murderers, the Cross
Speaker 2: Country Chameleon, the Classified ad Rapist, the Bundy Wannabee, the
Speaker 2: chessboard Killer, the Grinder Killer, and Part four is witness Reports,
Speaker 2: The soap Maker of Corregio, Son of Sam, the Nightstalker,
Speaker 2: the man Eater any Morenos, The Milwaukee Monster and the
Speaker 2: Lettterm of Jitas. Part five you title itself Surrender, the
Speaker 2: candy Man's Apprentice, the co Ed Killer, and the Angel
Speaker 2: of Death, and then your brief summary. Let's go to
Speaker 2: the Footpath Killer and what it demonstrates. Let's take us
Speaker 2: to November twenty first, nineteen eighty three and Leicester County,
Speaker 2: England and Linda Mann, who's fifteen years old and has
Speaker 2: a friend named Karen. Can you tell us a little
Speaker 2: bit about the footpad killer.
Speaker 7: Okay, well, first, let me just address the idea of
Speaker 7: a stereo killer. Definition has evolved. It used to be
Speaker 7: from the FBI. At least, it used to be that
Speaker 7: a person had to have murdered at least three people
Speaker 7: on three separate occations and three locations. That is no
Speaker 7: longer in use, although there are a lot of people
Speaker 7: who still believed that that's the definition. The fact that
Speaker 7: now is simply two victims and two distinctly different The
Speaker 7: incidents could still be the same location. But that's why
Speaker 7: this case qualified as serial murder. There were two victims,
Speaker 7: two young girls, taking what they call it like a
Speaker 7: footpad or a footpath to these small British villages, English villages,
Speaker 7: and they were three years apart. But the investigators thought
Speaker 7: it was probably the same person who had killed both
Speaker 7: of them, although they couldn't be certain of that. And
Speaker 7: around the same time, and this is in the forensic
Speaker 7: innovation section, So around the same time, Sir Alec Jeffries
Speaker 7: was doing work on DNA analysis and he had done
Speaker 7: some paternity testing for people who are you know, wanting
Speaker 7: to prove their parentage. And he had made a speech
Speaker 7: and the chief of the the investigator and his footpad murders,
Speaker 7: heard about read about a newspaper and he contacted Jefferies
Speaker 7: and asked, you know, would you be in tested in
Speaker 7: doing some murder cases. And Jeffers had not thought about that,
Speaker 7: but he was either to test his procedure on those cases.
Speaker 7: Now they had a suspecting custody who had confessed to
Speaker 7: one of the Christs but not the others. Submitted his
Speaker 7: samples to Jefferson, and Jeffrey came back and said, Wow,
Speaker 7: the good news is that it is the same guy
Speaker 7: for both. The bad news is it's not the guy confessed.
Speaker 7: So it actually seen the first DNA generation in history.
Speaker 7: It was the first DNA dragonet because they began taking
Speaker 7: food samples from all the men at a certain age
Speaker 7: and empoys with a certain age from the villages and
Speaker 7: a few nearby areas looking for the person. And this
Speaker 7: is obviously a very expensive procedure at that time. But
Speaker 7: it turned out that it was a guy, Colin Pitchfork,
Speaker 7: who had paid someone else to take the test for him.
Speaker 7: But that person started talking to other people at a
Speaker 7: you know, a gathering pubs and was overheard. Police ended
Speaker 7: up with the information and they brought Colin Pittsford in
Speaker 7: and turned out here with the guy. So it changed
Speaker 7: investigation forever around the world pretty quickly. Because DNA was
Speaker 7: an amazing tool. It didn't go uncontested, of course, you know,
Speaker 7: defense attorneys immediately found all kinds of issues with you know,
Speaker 7: the collection of it at crime scenes and some of
Speaker 7: the claims being made some of the statistical analyzes and
Speaker 7: they were right. But it still is the most tested,
Speaker 7: the most rigorous tool that we currently have for crime investigation.
Speaker 7: If DNA is left unseen, certainly not all crimes will
Speaker 7: have DNA. So that's a common misperception of the public
Speaker 7: because they just think, oh, I don't intersue DNA and
Speaker 7: everything because you know, we don't have it. So but
Speaker 7: it did change everything, and so that's obviously a case
Speaker 7: I would have wanted in the forensic innovation section, and
Speaker 7: another one in there, you know, proceeds with the with
Speaker 7: the forensic genealogy, you know, all a DNA type of
Speaker 7: testing because the Golden State killer, which you know has
Speaker 7: gained a lot of uh PRESS, was identified this way.
Speaker 7: So that's a new innovation that grew out of the
Speaker 7: kinds of things they've done with DNA over the years.
Speaker 7: They keep they keep perfecting it, they keep changing some
Speaker 7: of the ways they approach it so that they can
Speaker 7: get increasingly smaller samples. You know, we have touched DNA.
Speaker 7: So back in the in the pitchfort days, all they
Speaker 7: had was you had to have a sample around the
Speaker 7: sizeable I think it was a nickel. But now obviously,
Speaker 7: you know, we're much more sophisticated, but at the same time,
Speaker 7: the potential for corruption of samples is high, much higher
Speaker 7: than it used to be, because if you have touch DNA,
Speaker 7: you know, there are so many people who could potentially
Speaker 7: handle a sample or could potentially have touched the same
Speaker 7: area where a killer or a rapist has touched. So
Speaker 7: there's still our complications. It's not a one hundred share
Speaker 7: proof method, but it's certainly better than anything else we have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly in your second part with police Procedure, you
Speaker 2: have the accountable killer and the killer clown, which is
Speaker 2: John wake Gacy of course, and Rodney Okayla that the
Speaker 2: dating Game killer and the slave master Robinson. People were
Speaker 2: familiar with some of those stories, but another one that's
Speaker 2: a little bit less familiar for everyone, I think is
Speaker 2: the ABC Killer. Tell us a little bit about Victoria
Speaker 2: Johannesburg in July and October nineteen ninety four, and what
Speaker 2: you've learned from this story, what this story of the
Speaker 2: ABC Killer demonstrates.
Speaker 7: Yeah, the ABC Killer that was kind of really shocking
Speaker 7: one in terms of the way the bodies are found,
Speaker 7: because you know, we typically think about serial killers having
Speaker 7: the dumping bodies or leaving you know, in a house
Speaker 7: or something like that. But in South africause these bodies
Speaker 7: were all you know, lots of bodies were dumped in
Speaker 7: the same place, but it was in three different areas.
Speaker 7: The innovation there was really or the police procedure there
Speaker 7: was really the use of behavioral profiling analysis to make
Speaker 7: these linked. It turns out that they had really a
Speaker 7: lot of serial killers around this particular times, had several
Speaker 7: subjects and what was a really good one who ended
Speaker 7: up not being the guy but he was you know,
Speaker 7: logic would say, and even his own profession would say
Speaker 7: that he was the person, but he wasn't. It turned
Speaker 7: out to be a man named was the Sithole who
Speaker 7: really had perfected this way of I mean, he knew
Speaker 7: that there were a lot of young women who were
Speaker 7: looking for work because it was a time of social
Speaker 7: unrest and high unemployment and you know, a lot of needs.
Speaker 7: So he presented himself as a man who was able
Speaker 7: to get them jobs, and he dressed ensued. He was
Speaker 7: very you know, not what you ordinarily think of these
Speaker 7: serial killers. He presented himself in a way that not
Speaker 7: only did he seem to these women to be a
Speaker 7: source of potential future employment for even moments because he
Speaker 7: was good luck to die, and so they very easily
Speaker 7: went with him, and he would say things like I
Speaker 7: want to take you out and show you where I'm
Speaker 7: going to be building a big factory. So they would
Speaker 7: go with him, walking in isolated places where then that
Speaker 7: was his killing ground. He could easily kill them and
Speaker 7: dump the body right there with all the other bodies.
Speaker 7: So it's kind of I mean, it's surprising them. It's
Speaker 7: not a more well known case, I think, because the
Speaker 7: number of bodies in each of these areas and they
Speaker 7: were pretty accessible, they weren't that isolated. So it shows
Speaker 7: you also, at again the time of social unless, how
Speaker 7: the police weren't really even investigating many of these women disappearing,
Speaker 7: and it really took a very focused, concentrated task force
Speaker 7: to do this. They brought in Robert Restler from the
Speaker 7: FBI who he was sort of mentoring a young woman
Speaker 7: who was getting her PhD I think in forensic psychology
Speaker 7: she was. She had already been doing some profiling, so
Speaker 7: she asked them to bring him in because this is
Speaker 7: this is really a massive undertaking. So he came in.
Speaker 7: He had their dishes of the areas where they had
Speaker 7: done these victims. They called the ABC killings, even though
Speaker 7: it's not that clear whether it actually was A B
Speaker 7: and C, but it was for the names of the
Speaker 7: town for the dump sites were near, and so he
Speaker 7: went in and he helped her make this profile and
Speaker 7: turned out to be mostly sithole. So I just think
Speaker 7: I've always thought that was an interesting case. We kind
Speaker 7: of had this issue with the media of not covering
Speaker 7: crimes that are black serial killers or Hispanic serial killers, minorities.
Speaker 7: We tend not to put as much emphasis on those
Speaker 7: and even on females as we do on white males,
Speaker 7: and in particular in America. So I hear things like,
Speaker 7: you know, they're just don't just send the serial killers anymore.
Speaker 7: But in fact they're just not being covered by the media.
Speaker 7: We certainly have them that they're also top. They're also
Speaker 7: coming up in many other countries that didn't used to
Speaker 7: have these kinds of organized focused investigations and they didn't
Speaker 7: record people as serial killers, but now that's changing. So
Speaker 7: it's very difficult to really stay from one decade to another,
Speaker 7: from one country to another, who has the most or
Speaker 7: when we're the most, also in part because of the
Speaker 7: evolving definition of a sterio killer. But we certainly evans
Speaker 7: and especially as we get more sophisticated technology, more sophisticated
Speaker 7: recording of crime and linking them to offenders, we're certainly
Speaker 7: seeing a lot more of that. But we are definitely
Speaker 7: seeing them among minorities as well. And in this case,
Speaker 7: I think because Moses Fithole was black, it just didn't
Speaker 7: make the news the way I think internationally, the way
Speaker 7: I think it probably should have.
Speaker 2: You also include some horrifying details of murder once apartheid
Speaker 2: ends in Africa. You have the Cape Town strangler tortured
Speaker 2: and killed at least twenty sex workers, the Donnybrooks serial
Speaker 2: killer Crysto Boscode eighteen and attempted eleven more, and you
Speaker 2: had numerous other the Phoenix Strangler, Station Strangler. You say,
Speaker 2: by two thousand and four, fifty South African serial kis
Speaker 2: there's in twenty years an increase of nine hundred per
Speaker 2: annually between nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I wanted to use the total case to bring
Speaker 7: attention to that there were so many, and a lot
Speaker 7: of it was due to the social conditions at the time.
Speaker 7: I'm not the analyst and that I'm not really a sociologist,
Speaker 7: but people who have looked at that have seen the
Speaker 7: rise and violence, and especially as a serial nature, to
Speaker 7: be very directly associated with the change over after apartheid,
Speaker 7: the lack of policeeing, the lack of accountability among many
Speaker 7: of these killers. It's astonishing. I think mods of Sitthole,
Speaker 7: you know, is an interesting one even among all those
Speaker 7: for you know, the ways he operated. But I think
Speaker 7: I also wanted to bring attention to you know, look
Speaker 7: at this time period. It's really astonishing how many stereo
Speaker 7: murderers were operating in this area at those times, and
Speaker 7: often you know, not apprehended for a while because it
Speaker 7: just wasn't the policing, you know, support system as there.
Speaker 7: You know, there eventually was. But I wanted him to
Speaker 7: be situated in a sociological period to show us not
Speaker 7: just the developmental trajectory of the sterial killer, but also
Speaker 7: the social components of it. I think he's he's perfectly
Speaker 7: situated to demonstrate that. And I think I don't really
Speaker 7: think all serial killers have something of that in the
Speaker 7: way they developed. I mean, I think you can kind
Speaker 7: of see that I have the choken stroke killer, you know,
Speaker 7: the guy who's claiming over one hundred, you know, and
Speaker 7: he'll talk about how he looked around for marginalized and
Speaker 7: that he knew or police wouldn't investigate very much. And
Speaker 7: I then he then he moved around from place to place,
Speaker 7: very easily escaping because he knew the investigation wouldn't go
Speaker 7: on for very long. The resources just wouldn't be put
Speaker 7: into something like you know, blacks, you know, sex workers,
Speaker 7: and you know, some small town in Florida or Louisiana.
Speaker 7: So he tapped into conditions that he thought would support
Speaker 7: his ability to succeed. And even though we haven't yet
Speaker 7: you know, corroborated all the claims he's making, he certainly
Speaker 7: got to win a lot of murders because he looked
Speaker 7: at what was what was in his best interest. So
Speaker 7: that's also very interesting. I do want the book, even
Speaker 7: though it's a it's thirty distinctly different cases. I do
Speaker 7: want the book to show the the larger so theological impacts.
Speaker 7: Sometimes even politics are involved. Sometimes it's about the nature
Speaker 7: of journalism. For example, with the jack Umzerbaker case in Austria,
Speaker 7: we had a group of elite journalists who you know,
Speaker 7: we're reading the works. He already was in prison for
Speaker 7: a murder and in life for life? What they were
Speaker 7: reading things that he was writing. Personally, I don't think
Speaker 7: they were that rip. I translated some of them and
Speaker 7: it's just a whiny psychopath basically. But they've got me.
Speaker 7: You know that Art had cured him, and they to
Speaker 7: use political persuasion to get him sprung, whereupon he immediately
Speaker 7: began to murder in three different countries, including the United States,
Speaker 7: and took advantage of the fact that people thought, wow,
Speaker 7: you know he's a journalist, you know, and actually he
Speaker 7: was hired to cover these crimes because not only was
Speaker 7: he a writer, but he was a murderer. Who better
Speaker 7: to cover murders these murders, said, someone like him. So
Speaker 7: he was given an assignment, for example, to come to
Speaker 7: Los Angeles and he went to the police department and said,
Speaker 7: you know, I'm writing about sex workers here at Los Angeles,
Speaker 7: where would I go? And they took him down the
Speaker 7: shi because the idea was a journalist to doing this,
Speaker 7: it's certainly not a serial killers. Well they were wrong.
Speaker 7: The Austrian literary were wrong. Arts is not pure a
Speaker 7: psychopath and as a result, you know, ten more women
Speaker 7: were dead. So yeah, I'm keeping around a lot because
Speaker 7: I don't know. But there are themes that wink all
Speaker 7: these cases in terms of how many of these predators
Speaker 7: voided conditions to operate as successfully as they could.
Speaker 2: This case also really demonstrates also the so called rehabilitation
Speaker 2: of murderers as well. And you say it couldn't be
Speaker 2: rehabilitated through art, but there's been other people rehabilitated through
Speaker 2: other things where they impress people and seem to overlook
Speaker 2: the murders that they were in prison for as a
Speaker 2: profound example.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I think psychopaths are so good, especially very
Speaker 7: predatory ones. Now, not all the psychopaths there's serial killers,
Speaker 7: are murderers or even criminals. The majority are not. But
Speaker 7: those that are that are predatory they develop what is
Speaker 7: called context queuing or cognitive queuing, where they look specifically
Speaker 7: for those aspects of other people that they can exploit,
Speaker 7: and they know how to do it the most success
Speaker 7: for once. You know, obviously Ted Bundy and John leyn
Speaker 7: Gagey are among those. They know how to present themselves
Speaker 7: to allay suspicion, to make it seem as if they,
Speaker 7: you know, are like I guess Bundy is a good example.
Speaker 7: You know, bright young for looking law students, psychology majors.
Speaker 7: You know, how could that be SIA killers? Well, they
Speaker 7: can be. And I think we've developed a number of
Speaker 7: strange myths about seria killers that actually assist them in
Speaker 7: getting away with what they do. For example, Demons Trader
Speaker 7: one of the cases where police were actually out looking
Speaker 7: for a missing woman that he had just murdered, and
Speaker 7: he has used an overnight camping boy Scout camping saying
Speaker 7: where he was a volunteer kid used that being his
Speaker 7: advantage by when he encountered the police officer who was
Speaker 7: looking for you know, the guy, he talked a lot
Speaker 7: about the fact that, oh, you know, she said the
Speaker 7: boy scout camp out and and you know, because he
Speaker 7: knew that there's no way they're going to suspect him
Speaker 7: or look in his car, which would have been incriminating
Speaker 7: because he's a Boy Scout volunteer. But you know what,
Speaker 7: he's not the only Boy Scout volunteer that we've had
Speaker 7: who ended up actually being a predator and a killer.
Speaker 7: So one of the reasons I actually wrote the book
Speaker 7: on Denis Rader with him was to offer it as
Speaker 7: a cautionary tale for police to not buy into some
Speaker 7: of these myths, because killers who were very good at
Speaker 7: this use the myths. There's a hitch and had that
Speaker 7: officer just did his job that he was supposed to do,
Speaker 7: regardless of you know, the whole boy scout persona, he
Speaker 7: would have found things that that day, and he didn't
Speaker 7: because he accepted, you know, we had I had another one.
Speaker 7: He's not the book, but he this is in France
Speaker 7: in the late nineteenth century. He convinced he was I
Speaker 7: had been in the army, and so he always wore
Speaker 7: his some of his regalia from the military. So once
Speaker 7: police stopped him often they also had found the background too.
Speaker 7: So he exploited that to talk about, you know, our cobradship.
Speaker 7: You know, obviously I can't be a good killer you're
Speaker 7: looking for because we both served in the military, and
Speaker 7: they bought and let him go.
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Speaker 7: Plus Right, grouper things They can exploit that are based
Speaker 7: in these notions of what a serial killer is and isn't.
Speaker 7: But we have to be aware that we can always
Speaker 7: be surprised because we will find serial killers in all
Speaker 7: walks of life, in male and female. So that's one
Speaker 7: of the things about this book because it really shows
Speaker 7: are they really come from a lot of different backgrounds,
Speaker 7: and we need to be more alert to how predators operate.
Speaker 2: Speaking of that, you have a particularly interesting story that
Speaker 2: not so familiar to people. I think it's called the
Speaker 2: Hanging pro and about group suicide, and you also discuss
Speaker 2: the cultural context where this could even occur, which is
Speaker 2: very very interesting in Japan as well. So can you
Speaker 2: tell us about the Hanging pro.
Speaker 7: Yes, I stumbled across that because I also do suicideology.
Speaker 7: That's one of the things I teach, and suicideology is
Speaker 7: a particular aspect of forensic psychology that you know a
Speaker 7: lot of forensic psychologists have never heard of it as
Speaker 7: a discipline, but it is really the focused study of
Speaker 7: suicide methods, motives, and through that I found out about
Speaker 7: not just one guy, two guys, two different guys within
Speaker 7: this in Japan, it's kind of a suicide culture it's romanticized.
Speaker 7: There's a there's a forest where it's called the Hanging Forest.
Speaker 7: Has other institute, but it's like a suicide shrine. Around
Speaker 7: the world, we have these these places that people gravitate
Speaker 7: to to give it suicide, like volcano of tall buildings, bridges,
Speaker 7: things like that. But there's this be hanging forest if
Speaker 7: one of them. And so there's this odd romanticism among
Speaker 7: young people and some young people in Japan forces and
Speaker 7: there were online groups of offering support. So talk about clever.
Speaker 7: What a clever way to find victims is to pretend
Speaker 7: that you are going to you know, help them and
Speaker 7: even tell yourself with them so they won't be alone,
Speaker 7: which is what some of them would say they were
Speaker 7: looking for. So the potential victims would post on these
Speaker 7: suicide chats and websites, I'm looking for someone to you know,
Speaker 7: go into a suicide packed with me, or to help
Speaker 7: me cruz this and you know, and to be fair, also,
Speaker 7: Japan has set up counselors for this to to go
Speaker 7: through these sites and try to talk to these people
Speaker 7: out of it. It's not like there's just no regulation
Speaker 7: at all. But you know, some of intended suicide for
Speaker 7: whatever reason, we'll find ways typically to do it. So
Speaker 7: he's both of these these guys, but the one I
Speaker 7: particularly focused on with Sharashi would present themselves as you know, yeah,
Speaker 7: i'll help you. Arrashi would would you know, he's kind
Speaker 7: of uh, you know, unprepossessing kind of guy who didn't
Speaker 7: seem at all threatening, and he would you know, talk about, oh, yeah,
Speaker 7: I completely understand what you're going through and what you're
Speaker 7: what you want to do, and you know, I'm willing
Speaker 7: to help you. And so he would have them come
Speaker 7: to his house and then kill them there, but he
Speaker 7: didn't and it was like a small wonderom apartment would
Speaker 7: He really didn't think this through very well. She had
Speaker 7: no way to really disclose of the bodies, and so
Speaker 7: he would dismembered them. He kept some of them in
Speaker 7: coolers or his refrigerator or something like that. They were
Speaker 7: kind of piling up, and so he'd turned on, you know,
Speaker 7: fans what thatten. The neighbors began to know the like,
Speaker 7: my guy, what's going on in that place? The smells
Speaker 7: were more horrible as the body parts began to decomposed,
Speaker 7: And also he wasn't very careful about it, but he
Speaker 7: was doing. At one point a friend of one of
Speaker 7: the victims that she accompanied her and was you know,
Speaker 7: I didn't want her to die, and he was kind
Speaker 7: of suspicious of this whole setup, so you know, when
Speaker 7: she disappeared, he obviously had some some inkling of where
Speaker 7: she might have disappeared too, and so that the case essentially,
Speaker 7: but eventually, you know, the police would have just because
Speaker 7: of what a nuisance this place was, which now was horrifying.
Speaker 7: And this is the case in which I think the
Speaker 7: guy actually just wanted it to be over because he
Speaker 7: really hadn't thought it true and although he was getting,
Speaker 7: to say, the sexual thrill out of the his ability
Speaker 7: to bring these women under his control really overall and
Speaker 7: he just couldn't keep going this way. He also himself
Speaker 7: had said too, I think his father, that he wanted
Speaker 7: to commit suicide. So I think he already had that
Speaker 7: kind of sensibility and was able then to talk to
Speaker 7: these young women about you know, how he had been feeling,
Speaker 7: so he exploited that. And yeah, I think that's one of,
Speaker 7: in my opinion, one of the most unique cases in
Speaker 7: the book of being killers, the way he approached them.
Speaker 2: Yes, certainly, certainly, I know we're still in police procedure,
Speaker 2: but can you tell us about the choke and stroke
Speaker 2: killer again? You just mentioned it briefly, But what this
Speaker 2: is a fascinating story and what does it what unique
Speaker 2: lesson does it it have for I guess police and
Speaker 2: forensic investigators.
Speaker 7: Well, you know what, I actually look up his name.
Speaker 2: To me, hang on here, Sam Little, Sam Little.
Speaker 7: I knew it was Sam. I can't remember the last one,
Speaker 7: Sam Little. That one has been in the news recently,
Speaker 7: I guess over the past year because of the way,
Speaker 7: not just the multiple victims he claims, but the way
Speaker 7: he was persuaded to start talking was kind of interesting.
Speaker 7: It was a Texas ranger, and it was had so
Speaker 7: many parallels to another Texas story, Henry V. Lucas, who
Speaker 7: had claimed over three hundred and sixty I think even
Speaker 7: at one point he got it to five hundred, which
Speaker 7: was absurd. And it turned out with Henry V. Lucas
Speaker 7: that after these Texas lawmen had gotten all these confessions
Speaker 7: and closed cases in nineteen states, and Lucas said, well, never, Josh,
Speaker 7: I didn't kill all those people. And he described how
Speaker 7: he had manipulated the officer's desire to close their cases
Speaker 7: by getting them to tell him a lot of details
Speaker 7: so that he would just spend it back to them.
Speaker 7: He drew a lot of pictures of these victims, he
Speaker 7: was allowed to look at all kinds of newspaper reports,
Speaker 7: and it turned out to be a major scan and
Speaker 7: a big disappointment as well as a huge embarrassment to
Speaker 7: Texas law enforcement because in the end, he was only
Speaker 7: convicted of one murder, and even that one turns out
Speaker 7: was very unlikely to have been a victim of his
Speaker 7: and he probably you know, killed you know, a DOZM,
Speaker 7: maybe more, but certainly not anywhere near the true Haddred
Speaker 7: plus that he claimed. So I thought the Sam Little
Speaker 7: case was very interesting because again it's a Texas ranger
Speaker 7: who begins to approach him. The ranger heard about this case.
Speaker 7: I think he was at a conference where someone one
Speaker 7: of the BYCAPS, the violent Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, that
Speaker 7: one of the BYICAP technicians had been talking about the
Speaker 7: potential that they might have a bidance committed a number
Speaker 7: of of cases which were currently insolved in various states,
Speaker 7: and he had been caught and would have been processed
Speaker 7: in California. So the ranger decided he had some of
Speaker 7: these cases. He decided to go talk to Sam Lowell,
Speaker 7: and Lila was saying, you know, he was innocent, even
Speaker 7: the ones that he was getting convicted of, he was
Speaker 7: completely innocent. They were wrong. He was being very staggered
Speaker 7: about giving us any of the details. But this this
Speaker 7: ranger was you know, had the right approach. He plattered him,
Speaker 7: he talked about you know, his artwork, et cetera, and
Speaker 7: Little by Lily went him over and little began to
Speaker 7: make these drawings again, very much like Kenry v. Lucas.
Speaker 7: So you know, that's a lot of red flags there.
Speaker 7: You know, another another case of a guy confessing to
Speaker 7: you know, dozens and dozens of murders and drawing these
Speaker 7: pictures of victims. Some of the ones he confessed to
Speaker 7: just couldn't be corroberated. There were no reports there were
Speaker 7: four years ago. Very little was done to do the investigations,
Speaker 7: and that became again a big issue with the police
Speaker 7: maybe just not doing their jobs because they were sex workers,
Speaker 7: you know, black sex workers, drug addicts and things like
Speaker 7: that that sometimes just don't get the resources devoted to
Speaker 7: them because they're high risk victims. You know, they put
Speaker 7: themselves out into a space where a killer could come
Speaker 7: along very easily, and you know, it could just be
Speaker 7: a stranger, transient you know, could take or whatever. It's
Speaker 7: very hard to really follow through on some of these cases.
Speaker 7: So that's that's for the cops to work out, not me. However,
Speaker 7: and Little had been a boxer. He had these huge
Speaker 7: hands and he would entice these women, tell them they're beautiful,
Speaker 7: make them feel good, and you know, really put them
Speaker 7: off their guard, and then take one of the smiths
Speaker 7: and just slam it into them and either knock them
Speaker 7: out or even kill them and then choke them. He's
Speaker 7: called the Chilken stroke killer because he could actually choke
Speaker 7: them with one hand while he's masturbating with another. Because
Speaker 7: he had these massive hands and he needed he had
Speaker 7: a particular what we call it paraphilia or a sexual deviance.
Speaker 7: He needed that kind of his hands around their necks
Speaker 7: to be aroused. And this was traced back to childhood
Speaker 7: where he would see a you know, a woman's neck
Speaker 7: and that around him. So he had that fetish particular
Speaker 7: body parts and that's what he would do he claims
Speaker 7: to do. Again, we haven't corroborated all of the incidents
Speaker 7: that he has discussed, and he he's ill. I'm not
Speaker 7: even sure he remembers all the details. But he has
Speaker 7: made quite a few drawings that kind of lost track
Speaker 7: of how many, but he's made quite a few drawings
Speaker 7: of the women he claims that were his victims. He
Speaker 7: traveled around the country very transient, so that ultimated difficult
Speaker 7: for police. There have been a few in Ohio, which
Speaker 7: is where he lived for a while. There have been
Speaker 7: a few cases in Ohio now attributed to him as well,
Speaker 7: But the investigation in that case continues. So the point
Speaker 7: at which my book stops, and I think I've stopped
Speaker 7: writing and editing it around November last year, the point
Speaker 7: at which my books obviously, that's as far as I
Speaker 7: go with that case. But I think anyone can look
Speaker 7: it up, the same little case and find out what
Speaker 7: more is being done, because the FBI, by CATS personnel
Speaker 7: are really trying to pieces all together, and I'm sure
Speaker 7: more has been done even since November of last year
Speaker 7: that is not documented in my book, but it's He's
Speaker 7: a black serial killer, so unusual, and his approach to
Speaker 7: victims was very savvy for a guy with little education,
Speaker 7: so he he brings up this notion that I've been
Speaker 7: asked about and I actually teach about, which is criminal
Speaker 7: intelligence versus the typical type of IQ that you would
Speaker 7: consider with normal IQ instruments like the you know, the
Speaker 7: WATS lower intelligence sets that most people use these days.
Speaker 7: Criminal streets marsh is what it often is called. But
Speaker 7: I actually I think we should have an instrument called
Speaker 7: the c IQ, which I mean, he's sick. The c
Speaker 7: IQ would be criminal intelligence because I think we'll see
Speaker 7: things like Gary Ridgway, for example, the Green River Killers
Speaker 7: not very bright on IQ tests, actually quite below average,
Speaker 7: but wow smart, very smart about his crime. And I
Speaker 7: think Sam Will is similar in that he really has
Speaker 7: a way of finding victims who are going to respond
Speaker 7: to him, knew how to get them to respond and
Speaker 7: and kill them now. He I think he made a
Speaker 7: couple of statements about victims like they now and I
Speaker 7: was really doing them for mercy, you know, that kind
Speaker 7: of idea. But there was one woman who I think
Speaker 7: I mentioned, who had just gotten off the Plus and
Speaker 7: he met her the bus station, and she's just gotten
Speaker 7: divorced and was feeling a very good about starting her
Speaker 7: life over, and he killed her. So some of the
Speaker 7: things he has to say, like any of these credators,
Speaker 7: is mixed with lies and self serving statements. I mean,
Speaker 7: we can talk a lot about Danni Trader in that respect,
Speaker 7: because I've spent five years working with him on his autobiography,
Speaker 7: and you know, a lot of what he had to
Speaker 7: say was to self serving. I think we have to
Speaker 7: expect that because primarily they're narcissists who are always looking
Speaker 7: to their own advantage, who often will blame the victims
Speaker 7: for coming into their webs. And you know, most of
Speaker 7: them are just, in my opinion, losers who were smart
Speaker 7: enough to figure out how to do it and get
Speaker 7: away with it for often long periods of time.
Speaker 2: And they also blame it seems an entity for their crimes,
Speaker 2: the serial murder that they were it was somehow out
Speaker 2: of their control.
Speaker 7: Yeah, some do. I mean, they don't all do that
Speaker 7: of this idea that an entity picked them over. I
Speaker 7: think Kemper called it his little baffles. Some have referred
Speaker 7: to like a redout, where it's almost like a blackout
Speaker 7: where they they lose any sense of what's going on
Speaker 7: when they're actually murdering people. Rater for a very short
Speaker 7: period of time, talked about being seven possessed, but that
Speaker 7: was really the influence of the minister who came to
Speaker 7: visit him shortly after his arrest, and he thought, well,
Speaker 7: that sounds as good as anything else, so I'll use
Speaker 7: that for, you know, a while. But he quickly dropped
Speaker 7: that when when I came into the picture, because I
Speaker 7: like and apply that whatever I think. Son of Sam
Speaker 7: also did the whole demon possessed dog things and again
Speaker 7: dropped that when when the profile is wrestler and Douglas
Speaker 7: went in to see him thepah, we don't buy that. Hecause,
Speaker 7: okay and just start talking to them normally, but I
Speaker 7: think it's always easier sometimes to them once they're caught,
Speaker 7: to say there was some other force, you know. Bundie said.
Speaker 7: I don't remember if Casey actually took that turn, but
Speaker 7: it's a popular thing for these killers to just okay.
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Speaker 7: Whatever you do, say I lost control. I don't know
Speaker 7: what to govern me. It was oh, yeah, yeah, jay
Speaker 7: Z had the alder personality, study John Hanley or whatever
Speaker 7: to say was jay Z had the elder personality. So yeah,
Speaker 7: there's always a way to sidestep this. I think Danny
Speaker 7: Wawling talked about gem and I from The Exorcist the way. Uh,
Speaker 7: there's always ways to sidestep responsibility and throw blame on
Speaker 7: some supernatural force or altered personality or you know, something
Speaker 7: came over me, some dissociated state came over me. And
Speaker 7: I have no doubt frankly that it is a dissociated state,
Speaker 7: but that doesn't make it in any way psychotic or supernatural.
Speaker 7: All of us who daydream know what it is to
Speaker 7: be in a dissociated state, because that's a day dreaming
Speaker 7: is our consciousness allows us to do that. They take
Speaker 7: further and really lose themselves, submerge themselves in this completely
Speaker 7: eroticized sense of dominating and taking the life from another
Speaker 7: human being, and even those for whom the act of
Speaker 7: murder isn't the erotic thing. Like maybe like Todd Coulhas,
Speaker 7: Let's say, who murdered people because he was just an
Speaker 7: angry guy. He just was angry, but he also got
Speaker 7: an erotic drill from the idea that he could do
Speaker 7: and get away with it. So sometimes it's the actual murder,
Speaker 7: like the stroke and the Chilken Struck Killer, that's the
Speaker 7: erotic part. Sometimes it's the dominating, Sometimes it's torturing them.
Speaker 7: Sometimes it's about sexual assault and rape and then the murder.
Speaker 7: It's just too eliminate witnesses. I think that was probably
Speaker 7: the case with Jasey, at least for some of them. So,
Speaker 7: but there's always some kind of erotic components, and it's
Speaker 7: very easy to take this step to say I was
Speaker 7: completely out of myself. It was a dissociated state because
Speaker 7: they're so fully engulfed in this experience.
Speaker 2: What about the Knightstalker just talking about, you know, using
Speaker 2: examples of saying someone's out of control, that was out
Speaker 2: of their control, his idea that he was doing this
Speaker 2: for Satan. What did you get from the knight Stalker's position?
Speaker 7: I think I think Ramirez found a hook on which
Speaker 7: to hang what he was doing, and Satan was it
Speaker 7: in part because he was reading the newspapers, and that's
Speaker 7: what they were talking about. Also, again we're back to
Speaker 7: socio cultural factors. The nineteen eighties was a time of
Speaker 7: high of cultic activity and blame, and so we had
Speaker 7: a lot of the childcare centers with the so called
Speaker 7: satanic workers, with this huge network all over the country,
Speaker 7: which never came out to be anything. I mean, it
Speaker 7: was fully investigated. Mostly that was just a lot of
Speaker 7: the superstition. But there were a number during the nineteen
Speaker 7: eighties and he's mid nineteen eighties, there were a number
Speaker 7: of occultic oriented types of crimes. So the newspapers would
Speaker 7: pick up on, you know, anything that seemed to be
Speaker 7: a Celtic and so I think he sort of played
Speaker 7: with that. I think it was fun for him. There
Speaker 7: certainly were aspects of his development that I think primes
Speaker 7: can for some kind of religious worship, for sure, and
Speaker 7: he had experienced I think was a cousin murdering a
Speaker 7: woman right in front of him. He certainly had some
Speaker 7: traumatic aspects of his development. But I think the whole
Speaker 7: satanic aspect that he continued through his life, I mean,
Speaker 7: he had he had that. If you wrote to him
Speaker 7: in prison, you know, he made you say it would
Speaker 7: be part of this whole estate thing. At least some
Speaker 7: people wrote to him were ordered to do that. But
Speaker 7: I think it was more something he adopted than something
Speaker 7: that actually motivated him. So he would leave the satanic symbols,
Speaker 7: you know, in victims' homes. I think one was even
Speaker 7: drawn on a victim, but that just gave him a
Speaker 7: sense of identity. I think he started killing simply, and
Speaker 7: I don't even know all of his victims. I think
Speaker 7: there were a few early on. It's that he suspected of.
Speaker 7: I think one was a child that so it could
Speaker 7: just be he was. He was this guy who just
Speaker 7: started killing people and then adopted the whole persona because
Speaker 7: he really liked the nightstalker image of him creeping into
Speaker 7: houses and he liked the idea he's scaring people like that.
Speaker 7: But how much of that was really satanic worship, I
Speaker 7: don't know. I think that's Dona then a real motivator.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you talk about Part three mistakes and calculations,
Speaker 2: you have some, of course, once again infamous killers like
Speaker 2: j Holmes and Ian Brady and Myra Hindle and the
Speaker 2: Moore's murders and the cross country chameleon Ted Bundy. When
Speaker 2: we talk about the Bundy wanna be Israel keys and
Speaker 2: what's and what why?
Speaker 6: What?
Speaker 2: What was the profound mistake or miscalculation that he made?
Speaker 7: What is a key? It's actually one of I hate
Speaker 7: saying favorite murders because it sounds like you having fun
Speaker 7: with it. But I found him extremely fascinating because he
Speaker 7: there's still a particular reason why he just started killing,
Speaker 7: but he did know as a job. Now, he was
Speaker 7: raised in an odd circumstance. He was he was homeschooled
Speaker 7: and this kind of uh FOLKUS religion with white supremacy associations,
Speaker 7: so so he starts out that way. But he knew
Speaker 7: pretty early when he started talking about cruelty to animals
Speaker 7: and people backed away from him. But this was something
Speaker 7: he had to keep hidden. Wendy was actually rested, so
Speaker 7: he's been two different people for twelve years. So maybe
Speaker 7: that's the span of his killing or who knows. We
Speaker 7: don't know because he committed suicide. So I guess I
Speaker 7: should have said spoiler alert. But anyway, he was interesting
Speaker 7: in that he had studied at the Serial Killers, but
Speaker 7: in particular kind of thing for Ted Bundy, because Bundy
Speaker 7: was a cross country killer, very mobile, and he thought
Speaker 7: Bundy had made some very clear errors in gasping up
Speaker 7: and with credit cards where he left a trail that
Speaker 7: helped police to hone in on him as as a
Speaker 7: good suspect in some of the killings in Colorado and Utah. Right, So,
Speaker 7: Keys thought Bundy had made some errors and he wanted
Speaker 7: to be like Bundy, but without those miss sakes. So
Speaker 7: he had no victim type, and actually Bundy claims he
Speaker 7: didn't either. He was just always looking for women's college
Speaker 7: aged type of women because he liked the assueming of domination.
Speaker 7: But he also took victims of opportunity that weren't in
Speaker 7: any way. It wasn't girls with long dark hair cards
Speaker 7: in the middle. If you look at his entire rate,
Speaker 7: short hair hair on the side, blonde, you know, curly.
Speaker 7: Even he said, I don't know what people are talking
Speaker 7: about with that, but anyway, that's funny. So back to injury.
Speaker 7: He had no victim type. What he wanted to do
Speaker 7: was he would slide some places, often brought a bank,
Speaker 7: buy some items that he put into into these buckets
Speaker 7: like home depot buckets that could be sealed and buried
Speaker 7: and inside these kids who were things he would use
Speaker 7: later to kill and you know, dispose of a victim
Speaker 7: in some way. So he had a gun, he had
Speaker 7: you know, rope or shovel, you know, collassible shovel and
Speaker 7: things that he knew that he would need. And then
Speaker 7: he'd go away and not come back for a while.
Speaker 7: So whatever security videos at the store where he bought
Speaker 7: the items or at the bank, all of that would
Speaker 7: no longer be useful. And then he and I'm just
Speaker 7: telling you what he said he did. We don't know
Speaker 7: that any of the ever actually happened. So he said
Speaker 7: that he would then wait for he'd go to make
Speaker 7: a cemetery or a or a hiking trail or some
Speaker 7: isolated plays, and he grabbed the first person who came along,
Speaker 7: killed them, bury them, and move on. And that way
Speaker 7: he would never be traced or associated with that victim.
Speaker 7: But the weird thing is the three that we actually
Speaker 7: know about. One of the cup in Burlington, Burlington, Vermont,
Speaker 7: which he didn't realize was Ted Bundy's birthplace, so so
Speaker 7: much for being you know, a fanboy head Bundy. He
Speaker 7: was surprised when he found that out. Anyway, he killed
Speaker 7: a couple in Burlington, only because he had missed doing
Speaker 7: his typical thing because it was raining, one was out,
Speaker 7: and he just decided he wanted to kill somebody. So
Speaker 7: he killed this couple and then stupidly last the newspaper
Speaker 7: items on his laptop, which he had made a rule
Speaker 7: against ever doing, but he did it. And then he
Speaker 7: went back to Alaska where he lived. He had a girlfriend,
Speaker 7: a daughter, and he took he kidnapped a young barista,
Speaker 7: Samana Samtha Konik, out of one of these these late
Speaker 7: night coffee stand This is very elaborate thing where he
Speaker 7: took her bank cards and again breaking his own rules,
Speaker 7: he took her bank card, he raped and killed her,
Speaker 7: left her body in a shed on his girlfriend's property. Weirdly,
Speaker 7: went at a cruise with his daughter for ten days,
Speaker 7: came back, posed Namantha's body with a newspaper to make
Speaker 7: it look as if she were still alive. He taped
Speaker 7: her eyes open and all that, and then he began
Speaker 7: to collect money out of her bank account. But he
Speaker 7: at that point had flown to Arizona, took money out
Speaker 7: of a bank there an atm he made a rental car.
Speaker 7: So that's what he would do he rent his cars
Speaker 7: with cash, so again he can't betrayed. Some false names
Speaker 7: and whatnot, but he made a mistake. The ATM had
Speaker 7: caught a part of the rental parts so they could
Speaker 7: figure out what kind of part was on color. Now,
Speaker 7: the police didn't know he was switching at rental cars,
Speaker 7: but when he did do that, he had to see
Speaker 7: cheap color again. So even though he could have boiled
Speaker 7: the police by getting a different kind of car, he
Speaker 7: didn't do that. He ended up I guess it was Texas.
Speaker 7: He went to a wedding at his sister's wedding and
Speaker 7: the Texas you know, law enforcement was alerted to the
Speaker 7: kind of car to be looking for. They found it,
Speaker 7: they were able to pull him over. Again broke several
Speaker 7: rules of his He had his gun ready to hand
Speaker 7: so he could kill himself if he were ever arrested,
Speaker 7: but the gun was out of his reach. So he
Speaker 7: also had Samantha Conics, bank cards, license, a few other
Speaker 7: things that linked him to the Alaska clime. He had
Speaker 7: the Burlington murders on his computer. All of these so
Speaker 7: called mistakes that he claimed ted Bundy made, clearly Bundy
Speaker 7: was far superior to israel Keys and getting away with things. Now.
Speaker 7: A lot of people think he then bantered with his
Speaker 7: interrogators too, you know, each one to make a deal,
Speaker 7: you know, kill me within you know, have me executed
Speaker 7: within a year. Don't let this week out to the
Speaker 7: press because I don't want my daughter to hear about it.
Speaker 7: And I will give you eight more. So instead of
Speaker 7: saying okay, just lying. And I think in part that
Speaker 7: was because the DA took over and he wasn't really
Speaker 7: allowed to offer a deal like that. So unfortunately, the
Speaker 7: probably could have gotten if there are a victims, they
Speaker 7: probably could have gotten them. And then told them, oh, sorry,
Speaker 7: we can't do that. But they dickered around with him.
Speaker 7: He wasn't giving up any more details, and finally he
Speaker 7: decided just to kill himself. So we have these potential
Speaker 7: eight victims out there, but I kind of wonder if
Speaker 7: there are eight there there might be a few more.
Speaker 7: But she did such a bad job. It's the final three.
Speaker 7: I really wondered that he was so good at the
Speaker 7: at the earlier ones. I just don't know. He could
Speaker 7: have easily been making stuff up. Who knows, because they
Speaker 7: do a lot of serial killers will talk to many
Speaker 7: more murders than they've actual done. I have no idea,
Speaker 7: we don't know, and I think that so far there
Speaker 7: has been only one other murder potentially linked to him
Speaker 7: that looks pretty good but not provable. So why do
Speaker 7: I like him? I like him because what a unique idea,
Speaker 7: even though I didn't pull it off very well. The
Speaker 7: unique idea to just have no association with the victim,
Speaker 7: no victim type, no real clear motive that we know of,
Speaker 7: and just traveling using cash, rabbit banks, doing all these
Speaker 7: things to make sure there was no trail. It was
Speaker 7: very very clever and unique. You know, is serial pillar lore?
Speaker 7: This this is a very unique approach.
Speaker 2: Right when you get to part four of your book
Speaker 2: Witness Reports, you have Son of Sam, the night Stalker
Speaker 2: was mentioned, the man Eater Aleen Warnos, and the Milwaukee
Speaker 2: Monster obviously Jeffrey Dahmer. But you have a soap maker
Speaker 2: of Corrigio and you have another one. I'm going to
Speaker 2: mangle in my pronunciation. Las. Can you tell us about
Speaker 2: the soap maker of Corregio though? And what was about
Speaker 2: the witness reports that doomed this killer?
Speaker 7: She's another really unique one. So so both of the
Speaker 7: ones who just mentioned were women, so and one was
Speaker 7: from Mexico and the others from Italy. The silk maker
Speaker 7: one of the most unique motivators of all time, and
Speaker 7: her ability to kill and dismember people was really astyns.
Speaker 7: I found her when I went into a little crime
Speaker 7: museum in Rome, and I don't know that it's still open.
Speaker 7: Someone told me it close. But at the time they
Speaker 7: had all these amazing displays of Italian crimes and there
Speaker 7: was her, you know, big kettle where she had cooked flesh,
Speaker 7: her you know, all these crime tools she had used.
Speaker 7: Was this big display, and I had not heard of
Speaker 7: her before. I had spot wow, this astonish when I
Speaker 7: looked at her cakes. So she was this woman in
Speaker 7: Italy who got her mother had not wanted her, his
Speaker 7: terrible relationship with them mother, she vowed she will never
Speaker 7: be like that. She got married, she had a lot
Speaker 7: of children, but a fortune teller told her that they
Speaker 7: all would die before her, which horrified her, and as
Speaker 7: a matter of fact, they began to die one after another,
Speaker 7: and she just thought, she's got to figure out some
Speaker 7: way to appease the supernatural forces that for some reason
Speaker 7: had it in for her. And when her son, her
Speaker 7: oldest son said he was going to go out and
Speaker 7: join Lussolini's army. She thought, oh my god, that's high risk.
Speaker 7: There's no way he want to survive that. I have
Speaker 7: to do something. So she began to and she was
Speaker 7: a She would make these tea cakes and soaps and
Speaker 7: candles to sell out of her shop. So that was
Speaker 7: how she helped to support herself. She have this plan
Speaker 7: that she could buy her son's life by sacrificing another one.
Speaker 7: So she created this. She knew over a woman who
Speaker 7: who I think it was, was a match maker thing.
Speaker 7: Another one was getting her employment in another town. I
Speaker 7: think this is the long for employment. And he wasn't
Speaker 7: her friends, but she invited them to her house three
Speaker 7: different and present occasions, three different people. She invited them
Speaker 7: to her house to, you know, help them pack up.
Speaker 7: Get ready. She said, write write letters to everybody that
Speaker 7: you know. Tell them you found a job or you
Speaker 7: found you know, a role band in some other city,
Speaker 7: and that you're not from your back, you're happy. Write
Speaker 7: all these letters. I'll mail them for you. Any job.
Speaker 7: Someone says that to you, that's a red flaighte uh.
Speaker 7: John Robinson did the same thing. By the way write
Speaker 7: all these letters I'll mail before you, And then she
Speaker 7: would see them drugged wine or tea or something, they
Speaker 7: passed out. She killed them, dragged them in fishing, take
Speaker 7: off all the limbses never then be had them take
Speaker 7: all the flesh up. She drained the blood onto pans
Speaker 7: to bake into a hard substance that she could grind
Speaker 7: down into a flower that she then used to make
Speaker 7: these teacakes. The flesh she boiled down with all the
Speaker 7: stuff she'd use for her soaks and made them into
Speaker 7: soaks and candles. But she'd send these teacakes to her
Speaker 7: son to eat, and then she ate them. And she
Speaker 7: also sold them to people. And even when the police
Speaker 7: came looking for these missing women, she gave them the teacakes.
Speaker 7: So finally a witness said, I'm the third victor. I
Speaker 7: saw her go in to leonarda if Leonard did Chian
Speaker 7: Julie if by this say her names that if her
Speaker 7: go into Leonardo's house, did not come out, and now
Speaker 7: she's missing. So the police investigated. Leonard is pretty much
Speaker 7: really confessed because she thought she was doing the right
Speaker 7: thing by her son, So she was fully justified in
Speaker 7: doing these things and each time she killed, it was
Speaker 7: because she thought the supernatural forces needed yet another life
Speaker 7: to preserve her sons. And it turned out she wasn't
Speaker 7: song because her son gives her vive, So who knows,
Speaker 7: but she believed that. And so when she went on trial,
Speaker 7: I mean, she freely talked about what it was like
Speaker 7: to kill and dismember and boil down the fat at
Speaker 7: these at these women who had been her friends. It
Speaker 7: was really cold. She's as cold blooded as really any
Speaker 7: serial killer you'll know, but she completely justified it for
Speaker 7: supernatural purposes.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 7: Yeah, she's one of She's not my favorite female, but
Speaker 7: she's among them because she's so unusual.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And what about the other case from Mexico? What
Speaker 2: about the witness sport there?
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's interesting because that was a female again, one
Speaker 7: of Barazza. Essentially she has a long made within the book,
Speaker 7: but she was a female wrestler, so she's kind of
Speaker 7: big and strong. And there has been several witness reports
Speaker 7: after after women had been killed in their homes, there
Speaker 7: had been several witness reports, one one with it as
Speaker 7: killer was wearing a dress. But police there in a
Speaker 7: to get into the whole stereotype thing, don had to
Speaker 7: be a man, a man dressed as a woman wearing
Speaker 7: a way and so that's what they were looking for.
Speaker 7: And finally, of course they identified her as I think
Speaker 7: she was. Actually she killed someone and was seen by
Speaker 7: a person who was a boarder in the house, so
Speaker 7: he was able to call police quickly and they got
Speaker 7: her and then realized their error had been believing all
Speaker 7: this time they were looking for a man. In fact
Speaker 7: she was a woman. But she was a female wrestler,
Speaker 7: so she's not a good one. She was pretty unsuccessful
Speaker 7: at it, you know, the court sort of TV sport,
Speaker 7: trying to think. So she had a you know, a
Speaker 7: whole persona you know, she had a wrestled name and
Speaker 7: the whole thing, and she was strong. She just had
Speaker 7: to resentment against these women and so she killed them
Speaker 7: and she would take things she had exacorating with them.
Speaker 7: Another woman. At first they were they hired themselves out
Speaker 7: as made to this cleaning service, and the two of
Speaker 7: them together we were taking things. But then she turned
Speaker 7: into a killer on her own. So she's she's unusual.
Speaker 2: Now, in your last part, part five, you have a
Speaker 2: called self surrender, and you have the co ed killer
Speaker 2: and the Angel of Death. But I thought that people
Speaker 2: might want to hear about the candy Man's apprentice, which
Speaker 2: is Elmer Wayne Henley. This is a fascinating story of
Speaker 2: two serial killers. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 7: Yes, yeah, Actually I's actually three serial killers in that one,
Speaker 7: and one of them recently died, David Well recently died
Speaker 7: in prison. I actually like that story best of those three,
Speaker 7: in part because I actually think Elma Wayne Henley would
Speaker 7: not have turned himself in had he not been pressure
Speaker 7: to under the circumstances. That's an interesting case of sex
Speaker 7: trafficking where you had an adult treasure being Porl who
Speaker 7: first drew in David Brooks, who was a teenager to
Speaker 7: help him more. And he was in fact a candy
Speaker 7: man because he made actual candy. His mother had a factory.
Speaker 7: He worked in the factory for a while, but also
Speaker 7: he offered these kids drugs and alcohol, so he was
Speaker 7: that kind of candy man as well. Maybe these kids
Speaker 7: weren't going there because that's what they wanted. They were
Speaker 7: forced there. They were picked up in Coral's van and
Speaker 7: taken there because he wanted them for his sex party.
Speaker 7: And he told David Brooks that he would pay him,
Speaker 7: you know, per kid, like one hundred dollars per chid
Speaker 7: or something like that. But in fact he bought the
Speaker 7: car et cetera. Brooks brought h Elma, Wayne Hanley or
Speaker 7: some some people say Wayne Elmer Henley. Either way, Wayne
Speaker 7: Henley and the potential victims. But cosponded in him this
Speaker 7: could be another accomplished because he needed them not only
Speaker 7: to bring the kids in but after he thoroughly tortured
Speaker 7: them on his torture board, a torture board by the way,
Speaker 7: that that was the inspiration for John Wayne Jacy when
Speaker 7: he hooks. Yeah, jay Z had read about the caves
Speaker 7: and he thought, wow, that sounds great, that sounds very effective. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 7: They didn't learn from each other, some of those killers anyway.
Speaker 7: So after the kids were thoroughly tortured and then finally murdered,
Speaker 7: Coral expected Henley and Books to take the bodies and
Speaker 7: bury them. So they had basically that we know of
Speaker 7: three basic sights. One was a piece of land that
Speaker 7: Coral owned, one was a beach, and one was a boatyard.
Speaker 7: And so they would just take and dump the bodies
Speaker 7: in these places. And then Candley got very involved in
Speaker 7: the murders too. He I guess he enjoyed it as well.
Speaker 7: But that one day and these all were boys, and
Speaker 7: that's all Coral wanted. He said that he don't want
Speaker 7: them to bring any girls it. One day, Kendy brought
Speaker 7: Burl over because she wanted to run away from home.
Speaker 7: He liked her. H He wasn't gay, but Corla was.
Speaker 7: But he liked this girl. He brought her over and
Speaker 7: Coral was curious, so he put you know, he got
Speaker 7: both of them, you know, wiped out in drugs and whatnot.
Speaker 7: They both passed out. He tied them up, and when
Speaker 7: when they woke up, they realized that Coral was going
Speaker 7: to kill them both. And there was another kid there
Speaker 7: as well, so that that was going to be three.
Speaker 7: Henley was able to persuade Coral, but did you let
Speaker 7: me go? I'll help you kill kill them both. Do
Speaker 7: you let me go? So Coral is bad, but he
Speaker 7: put his gun down in order to do that, and
Speaker 7: Hanley realized he had the opportunity of a lifetime here
Speaker 7: because he didn't want Coral to kill his girlfriend. She
Speaker 7: wasn't actually his girlfriend, but she's really liked. So he
Speaker 7: takes up the gun and he show Hanley, I mean
Speaker 7: he shot Karl, so Henley shot Carl, killed him, and
Speaker 7: then there the three of them are there thinking now what, well,
Speaker 7: the two victims think we have to call the police.
Speaker 7: They're they're not aware that Hanley had called it stuck
Speaker 7: to hide. Yeah, but you know, he either had to
Speaker 7: kill them or turn himself in. So I'm not for
Speaker 7: sure he would have turned himself in without that kind
Speaker 7: of situation, but he could. He turns stuff in. He
Speaker 7: turned in Books, who wasn't very happy with him, and
Speaker 7: the two of them showed the police where the bodies
Speaker 7: were buried. There's one interesting photo I think it's the
Speaker 7: only one of the two of them together, where they're
Speaker 7: on the beach watching the diggers, and the two of
Speaker 7: them sitting together watching this. I think Hanley was much
Speaker 7: more emotional over Books. Never gave an interview ever about this,
Speaker 7: but Hanley did a numerous ones. He's still alive, I'm
Speaker 7: pretty sure, but Books is dead, so obviously Corlways did.
Speaker 7: But that's that's an interesting case of three together. That's
Speaker 7: the only time we've had that. But it's three together.
Speaker 7: And then in these murders tortures, I mean like horrible
Speaker 7: tortures of these young boys. And it's also a case
Speaker 7: of socio economic times in this area of Houston, because
Speaker 7: all these boys went missing about this area and the
Speaker 7: cop basically said, there's just run away. There was almost
Speaker 7: no investigation of I think it was. I think they've
Speaker 7: now up to twenty nine. Certainly twenty eight. Twenty seven
Speaker 7: were found at the time, but another's been identified since then.
Speaker 7: I think there might be another one for sure. How
Speaker 7: can you have that many people missing from the relatively yes,
Speaker 7: a couple of years period of time, and I think
Speaker 7: something's going on. Well, it was the early seventies. We
Speaker 7: really we weren't even yet using the word serial killer
Speaker 7: for law enforcement. I mean, serial killer has been used
Speaker 7: in various textbooks and stuff, but not common use for
Speaker 7: law enforcement. It was, you know, there were a few
Speaker 7: One Corona in California they dug up, in fact, that case,
Speaker 7: I believe one Corona had twenty five. And when they
Speaker 7: dug up the twenty seventh body and the Houston murders,
Speaker 7: they said, that's enough, We've topped the Corona case in California.
Speaker 7: It was a horrifying statement to make. In other words,
Speaker 7: you're saying if there's any other victims, well tough, we've
Speaker 7: done it up here. But we had the one Corona
Speaker 7: case is a mass grades in California, we had the
Speaker 7: Manson murders, and there are a few others, but not many,
Speaker 7: not many. So I guess it can be excused for
Speaker 7: not really understanding the phenomena of serial murder. But I
Speaker 7: still think, wow. You know, in term of Kupodi had
Speaker 7: a chance to write about this case, he passed it
Speaker 7: up because he thought Handley looked like a two bit
Speaker 7: loser and he wouldn't be very interesting. But at that time,
Speaker 7: so it was so far gone and you know, his
Speaker 7: alcoholism and everything, he probably couldn't have written the book.
Speaker 7: But wow, what this could have been. I think, another
Speaker 7: real expojee of a certain American era. But it wasn't
Speaker 7: you know, it still could be something could do a
Speaker 7: great documentary of it. It's a great case.
Speaker 2: Well I think, you know, people are seriously looking at it.
Speaker 2: I mean in terms of maybe not specifically, but I
Speaker 2: mean they will get to the cases that have all
Speaker 2: of that. You know, finally Ted Bundy makes it to
Speaker 2: the big screen.
Speaker 6: I don't think it was.
Speaker 2: It was a bit disappointing, but I think that Hollywood
Speaker 2: is recognized that there are some intrinsically intrinsically fantastic stories here,
Speaker 2: filled with all those things that make Hollywood movies what
Speaker 2: they are, but also just the cultural context that all
Speaker 2: of these things were able to happen and why, And
Speaker 2: I think that's interesting thing.
Speaker 7: I think they don't have much attention to the more
Speaker 7: marginalized victims like gay serium, murder, sex workers. They're not
Speaker 7: I will go, they said, they think Ted Bundy and everything.
Speaker 7: So that's why he's constantly coming back. He murdered beautiful
Speaker 7: young women, a lot of them. He was a good
Speaker 7: looking law student. I mean, he has all the stuff
Speaker 7: that make people watch. I don't think seeing Carl does.
Speaker 7: And I think it's still interesting story. How the dynamics
Speaker 7: of this man who got these two teenagers to not
Speaker 7: just bring boys to him but participate and torture. That's
Speaker 7: I mean, when you see his his kit of torture instruments,
Speaker 7: Oh my god, he's gayety by far.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, there's not many cases where a young
Speaker 2: man is recruited for something like that. I know these.
Speaker 2: I think it's North Cot case lou Will call Phil and.
Speaker 7: Me. There are a few in Europe too where they
Speaker 7: that happens. But but yes, it is rare because first
Speaker 7: of all, you're counting on your accomplish who this isn't
Speaker 7: his thing. You're counting on that person to stay quiet,
Speaker 7: and oftentimes that's the very person who ends up turning
Speaker 7: you in.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's having to count on accomplices keeping their mouths shut.
Speaker 2: Criminals have been foolish thinking about that, counting on Yes.
Speaker 2: In this book How to Catch a Killer, what do
Speaker 2: you summarize this out of this entire project, what's the
Speaker 2: big summary I think you would gain from this?
Speaker 7: To learn from this, well, I mean the uplifting aspects,
Speaker 7: if there is one to be found, is how many
Speaker 7: are fought with you know, good solid police work and
Speaker 7: forensic innovation. It isn't just some accidental you know, your
Speaker 7: arrestive Randy Kraft, we're speeding violation, they had a body
Speaker 7: in the passenger seat.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 7: Those are good stories, but that's not the majority of them.
Speaker 7: So I think the fact that that good solid police work,
Speaker 7: persistent officers who really think their way through these cases
Speaker 7: and really try to figure out, you know, how to
Speaker 7: do this, don't don't get caught in the stereotypes, really
Speaker 7: put the pressure on to care about the victims and
Speaker 7: care about their family. What's the kind of good police
Speaker 7: work we've seen, So I think that that's probably the
Speaker 7: main thing is when you look at how killers have
Speaker 7: been caught, it's often persistent, far thinking, innovative detectives who
Speaker 7: care about what they're doing, and and I like, you
Speaker 7: know those stories, I'm not sure. I think also the
Speaker 7: variety of things that killers have done we have to
Speaker 7: keep in mind because I'm constantly hearing or seeing documentaries
Speaker 7: or scripted TV shows where it's the same thing over
Speaker 7: and over and over, and we fall into these ideas
Speaker 7: of what serious killers do and think we'll always know,
Speaker 7: and then someone like Isel Keys comes along or Sport,
Speaker 7: I think that's that's a bookchase, what clever thing he did. Also,
Speaker 7: that was the case of very poor police work. So
Speaker 7: I think the lesson to be learned is that they
Speaker 7: can be be caught. We need to understand them. We
Speaker 7: need to understand the variations, the deviations, and the fact
Speaker 7: that predators always look to their advantage Insteady asked to
Speaker 7: figure out how to get around police procedures. Accountability elifs
Speaker 7: that we have. You know, the more these the more
Speaker 7: our media plays into the stereotypes, the more advantages you
Speaker 7: get killers. So I guess that would be a good thing.
Speaker 2: Absolutely It is also profound examples in this book of
Speaker 2: what you called criminal intelligence. I want to thank you
Speaker 2: very much, Catherine Ramslin for coming on and talking about
Speaker 2: your new book, How to Catch a Killer, Hunting and
Speaker 2: watching the world's most notorious serial Killers. I want to
Speaker 2: thank you very much. I know that you have a website, pleasure,
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 7: I don't use the website anymore. Oh okay, I'm on Facebook.
Speaker 7: You can. You can find it there, probably more easily
Speaker 7: than anywhere else. Right now, I'm working on a show
Speaker 7: called Murder House Flip and I just posted something on
Speaker 7: Facebook that if you have a murder House, we're looking
Speaker 7: to cast their second season so you get an amazing renovation.
Speaker 7: But it's easy to find me on Facebook. I'm very
Speaker 7: active on it. I just let that website go absolutely well.
Speaker 2: I want to thank you very much, Catherine. It's been
Speaker 2: absolute pleasure. Thank you, and have a great evening. Good night,
Speaker 2: good night.