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No purchase necessary void We're prohibited by Law 24 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:02.280 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. See website for Dad. 25 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:15.040 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 26 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:18.159 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:25.519 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 28 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:29.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:33.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:36.799 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 31 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:50.920 Good Evening. There are two parts to every crime story, 32 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.879 how they did it and why they got caught. This 33 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:57.400 book is about the second part and how it changes 34 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:01.000 the way we catch serial killers. No two stories about 35 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:04.159 the capture of a serial killer are the same. Sometimes 36 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:08.960 the killers make crucial mistakes, other times investigators get lucky, 37 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:13.039 and the process of profiling, hunting, and apprehending these predators 38 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:16.840 has changed radically over time, particularly in the field of 39 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:20.280 criminal forensics, which has exploded in the last ten to 40 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:26.280 fifteen years. Laser ablation, video spectral analysis, cyber sleuthing, and 41 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:29.960 even DNA based genetic genealogy are now crucial tools in 42 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.800 solving murders, including the recent capture of the so called 43 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:37.439 Golden State Killer. This book, in the new Profiles and 44 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:41.240 Crime series, tells the story history of forensics through the 45 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:44.080 capture stories of some of the most notorious serial killers 46 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:49.280 going back almost a century. The killers include Rodney al Keala, 47 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:53.159 a serial rapist and murderer sometimes called Dating Game Killer 48 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:56.479 for his appearance on that TV show No One Knows 49 00:02:56.479 --> 00:03:01.800 the exact number of his victims, ziro Shira Rishi, the 50 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:05.800 suicide killer from Zama, Japan, who dismembered nine victims and 51 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:09.719 stored their bodies in his refrigerator. Aleen Warnos one of 52 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:13.080 the rare female serial killers. She shot seven men in 53 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.360 Florida and was turned in by an accomplice. Jeffrey Dahmer, 54 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:20.360 the Milwaukee Cannibal, and Bobby Joe Long, both identified by 55 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:24.840 survivors Ted Bundy and David Berkowitz, son of Sam, who 56 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:30.199 both made mistakes. Ludwog Testnau, who killed several children in Germany, 57 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:33.879 was caught through new methods in forensic investigation that could 58 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:37.240 distinguish human from animal blood. The book they were featuring 59 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.400 this evening is How to Catch a Killer. Hunting and 60 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:44.039 Capturing the World's Most Notorious serial Killers with my special 61 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:48.599 guest journalist and authorman, Professor Katherine Ramslin. Welcome back to 62 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:50.520 the program and Thank you so much for this interview. 63 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:53.800 Katherine Ramslin, Hi, thanks. 64 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:56.199 For having me. It's always funded to talk with you 65 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:58.000 and I appreciating on the show. 66 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:02.039 Again, Thank you very much. Were always one of my 67 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:07.120 favorite authors. Of the incredible amount of true crime classic 68 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.639 books that you've written, over sixty books. Let's get right 69 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:14.719 to this book, How to Catch a Killer, Hunting and 70 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:18.519 Capturing the World's most notorious serial killers. In your acknowledgments, 71 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:23.279 you list several FBI profilers. Give us a few names 72 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:25.279 of some of these profilers and what they gave you 73 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:25.920 access to. 74 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:29.920 Well, most of them were retired. I worked with them 75 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.439 either in research projects or on their own books. I 76 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:38.160 started working with John douglas book Callblicases a Haunted. We 77 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:42.800 did the research for most of the cases and then 78 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:47.120 we got together. He talked it through Mark Olshaker was 79 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:50.920 his co writer in that book, so I worked in that. 80 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:54.519 I worked with Mark Staffrick and a book about spree 81 00:04:54.639 --> 00:05:00.560 killers where we classified s free killers from counties all 82 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:03.600 over the world. We had to really the most probably 83 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.879 the most cases have any database on that and that 84 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:10.680 just that book came out in November, and I worked 85 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:15.879 with Greg McQuary on a book of his cases. I 86 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.720 was about to work with Bob wrestlers when he got sick, 87 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:24.759 and then unfortunately he passed away, so I didn't get 88 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:27.279 to do work with him, but I interviewed him, I 89 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:28.040 interviewed case. 90 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:28.399 It was. 91 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:34.160 On and on. So sometimes I would in still done 92 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:37.240 on cases if they just wanted to pass things by 93 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:41.720 me from the kind of research i'pe in doing. So 94 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:44.959 it was that's really it, mostly the researchain cases for 95 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:47.160 them or co writing books with them. 96 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:51.040 You're right that you analyzed three hundred cases for identification 97 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:55.319 and arrest details and identified more than a dozen distinct 98 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:58.920 variables that play a key role in their capture. And 99 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:02.879 that's what this book is obviously. And then we talk 100 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:05.720 about the can you write about in your book. It's 101 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:10.680 part one is forensic innovation, and you list the mad carpenter, 102 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:15.519 the footbed killer, the clean cup killer, the Vienna Courier BTK, 103 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.720 and the Golden State killer in that first part. In 104 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:24.120 part two it's police procedure, and you list the cannibal killer, 105 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:28.000 the killer clown, the dating game killer, the slave master, 106 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.360 the ABC killer, the hanging pro, the grudge collector, the 107 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:35.879 choke and stroke killer, and you have Part three Mistakes 108 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:40.079 and Calculations, The Chicago Scamera, the Moor's Murderers, the Cross 109 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:45.160 Country Chameleon, the Classified ad Rapist, the Bundy Wannabee, the 110 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:50.199 chessboard Killer, the Grinder Killer, and Part four is witness Reports, 111 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:55.079 The soap Maker of Corregio, Son of Sam, the Nightstalker, 112 00:06:55.560 --> 00:07:00.480 the man Eater any Morenos, The Milwaukee Monster and the 113 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:05.240 Lettterm of Jitas. Part five you title itself Surrender, the 114 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:08.600 candy Man's Apprentice, the co Ed Killer, and the Angel 115 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:14.560 of Death, and then your brief summary. Let's go to 116 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:18.519 the Footpath Killer and what it demonstrates. Let's take us 117 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:23.240 to November twenty first, nineteen eighty three and Leicester County, 118 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.959 England and Linda Mann, who's fifteen years old and has 119 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.639 a friend named Karen. Can you tell us a little 120 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:31.120 bit about the footpad killer. 121 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:34.160 Okay, well, first, let me just address the idea of 122 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:39.000 a stereo killer. Definition has evolved. It used to be 123 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:41.759 from the FBI. At least, it used to be that 124 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:44.240 a person had to have murdered at least three people 125 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:48.800 on three separate occations and three locations. That is no 126 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:51.399 longer in use, although there are a lot of people 127 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:54.519 who still believed that that's the definition. The fact that 128 00:07:54.639 --> 00:08:01.279 now is simply two victims and two distinctly different The 129 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:04.759 incidents could still be the same location. But that's why 130 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.079 this case qualified as serial murder. There were two victims, 131 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.360 two young girls, taking what they call it like a 132 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:18.240 footpad or a footpath to these small British villages, English villages, 133 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:23.160 and they were three years apart. But the investigators thought 134 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:27.120 it was probably the same person who had killed both 135 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:30.800 of them, although they couldn't be certain of that. And 136 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:34.159 around the same time, and this is in the forensic 137 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:39.960 innovation section, So around the same time, Sir Alec Jeffries 138 00:08:40.279 --> 00:08:45.799 was doing work on DNA analysis and he had done 139 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:51.600 some paternity testing for people who are you know, wanting 140 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:56.480 to prove their parentage. And he had made a speech 141 00:08:57.080 --> 00:09:01.840 and the chief of the the investigator and his footpad murders, 142 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:06.919 heard about read about a newspaper and he contacted Jefferies 143 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.120 and asked, you know, would you be in tested in 144 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:15.039 doing some murder cases. And Jeffers had not thought about that, 145 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:19.759 but he was either to test his procedure on those cases. 146 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:24.200 Now they had a suspecting custody who had confessed to 147 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:26.960 one of the Christs but not the others. Submitted his 148 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:30.840 samples to Jefferson, and Jeffrey came back and said, Wow, 149 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:32.960 the good news is that it is the same guy 150 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:37.039 for both. The bad news is it's not the guy confessed. 151 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.919 So it actually seen the first DNA generation in history. 152 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:45.840 It was the first DNA dragonet because they began taking 153 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:49.440 food samples from all the men at a certain age 154 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:52.480 and empoys with a certain age from the villages and 155 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.360 a few nearby areas looking for the person. And this 156 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:00.960 is obviously a very expensive procedure at that time. But 157 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:04.559 it turned out that it was a guy, Colin Pitchfork, 158 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:08.080 who had paid someone else to take the test for him. 159 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:13.000 But that person started talking to other people at a 160 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:18.120 you know, a gathering pubs and was overheard. Police ended 161 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:21.679 up with the information and they brought Colin Pittsford in 162 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:25.279 and turned out here with the guy. So it changed 163 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:32.399 investigation forever around the world pretty quickly. Because DNA was 164 00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:37.039 an amazing tool. It didn't go uncontested, of course, you know, 165 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:41.639 defense attorneys immediately found all kinds of issues with you know, 166 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.360 the collection of it at crime scenes and some of 167 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:50.679 the claims being made some of the statistical analyzes and 168 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.759 they were right. But it still is the most tested, 169 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:59.519 the most rigorous tool that we currently have for crime investigation. 170 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:04.919 If DNA is left unseen, certainly not all crimes will 171 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:09.159 have DNA. So that's a common misperception of the public 172 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:11.639 because they just think, oh, I don't intersue DNA and 173 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:16.159 everything because you know, we don't have it. So but 174 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:19.559 it did change everything, and so that's obviously a case 175 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.799 I would have wanted in the forensic innovation section, and 176 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.240 another one in there, you know, proceeds with the with 177 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:30.960 the forensic genealogy, you know, all a DNA type of 178 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:35.960 testing because the Golden State killer, which you know has 179 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:40.159 gained a lot of uh PRESS, was identified this way. 180 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:44.039 So that's a new innovation that grew out of the 181 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:47.039 kinds of things they've done with DNA over the years. 182 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:51.080 They keep they keep perfecting it, they keep changing some 183 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:53.480 of the ways they approach it so that they can 184 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:58.399 get increasingly smaller samples. You know, we have touched DNA. 185 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:01.919 So back in the in the pitchfort days, all they 186 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:05.440 had was you had to have a sample around the 187 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:10.399 sizeable I think it was a nickel. But now obviously, 188 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.720 you know, we're much more sophisticated, but at the same time, 189 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:21.480 the potential for corruption of samples is high, much higher 190 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:24.600 than it used to be, because if you have touch DNA, 191 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:27.639 you know, there are so many people who could potentially 192 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.679 handle a sample or could potentially have touched the same 193 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:34.799 area where a killer or a rapist has touched. So 194 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:39.039 there's still our complications. It's not a one hundred share 195 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:42.279 proof method, but it's certainly better than anything else we have. 196 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:48.480 Yeah, certainly in your second part with police Procedure, you 197 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:50.960 have the accountable killer and the killer clown, which is 198 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:54.840 John wake Gacy of course, and Rodney Okayla that the 199 00:12:54.919 --> 00:13:00.200 dating Game killer and the slave master Robinson. People were 200 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.799 familiar with some of those stories, but another one that's 201 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:06.799 a little bit less familiar for everyone, I think is 202 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.679 the ABC Killer. Tell us a little bit about Victoria 203 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:16.120 Johannesburg in July and October nineteen ninety four, and what 204 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.519 you've learned from this story, what this story of the 205 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:21.000 ABC Killer demonstrates. 206 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:25.679 Yeah, the ABC Killer that was kind of really shocking 207 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:29.519 one in terms of the way the bodies are found, 208 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:33.840 because you know, we typically think about serial killers having 209 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:37.919 the dumping bodies or leaving you know, in a house 210 00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:43.480 or something like that. But in South africause these bodies 211 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.320 were all you know, lots of bodies were dumped in 212 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.000 the same place, but it was in three different areas. 213 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.440 The innovation there was really or the police procedure there 214 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:59.320 was really the use of behavioral profiling analysis to make 215 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:03.360 these linked. It turns out that they had really a 216 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:09.480 lot of serial killers around this particular times, had several 217 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:12.799 subjects and what was a really good one who ended 218 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.399 up not being the guy but he was you know, 219 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:20.279 logic would say, and even his own profession would say 220 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:23.120 that he was the person, but he wasn't. It turned 221 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:26.480 out to be a man named was the Sithole who 222 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.080 really had perfected this way of I mean, he knew 223 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.639 that there were a lot of young women who were 224 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:36.559 looking for work because it was a time of social 225 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:40.679 unrest and high unemployment and you know, a lot of needs. 226 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:47.360 So he presented himself as a man who was able 227 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.759 to get them jobs, and he dressed ensued. He was 228 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:55.279 very you know, not what you ordinarily think of these 229 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:58.720 serial killers. He presented himself in a way that not 230 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:02.840 only did he seem to these women to be a 231 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.279 source of potential future employment for even moments because he 232 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.279 was good luck to die, and so they very easily 233 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:14.879 went with him, and he would say things like I 234 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:17.320 want to take you out and show you where I'm 235 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.799 going to be building a big factory. So they would 236 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.759 go with him, walking in isolated places where then that 237 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:27.919 was his killing ground. He could easily kill them and 238 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:30.720 dump the body right there with all the other bodies. 239 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.000 So it's kind of I mean, it's surprising them. It's 240 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:38.360 not a more well known case, I think, because the 241 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.879 number of bodies in each of these areas and they 242 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:47.679 were pretty accessible, they weren't that isolated. So it shows 243 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:51.919 you also, at again the time of social unless, how 244 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:56.759 the police weren't really even investigating many of these women disappearing, 245 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:03.600 and it really took a very focused, concentrated task force 246 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.519 to do this. They brought in Robert Restler from the 247 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:12.960 FBI who he was sort of mentoring a young woman 248 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:16.919 who was getting her PhD I think in forensic psychology 249 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:21.000 she was. She had already been doing some profiling, so 250 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:23.120 she asked them to bring him in because this is 251 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:26.919 this is really a massive undertaking. So he came in. 252 00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:29.879 He had their dishes of the areas where they had 253 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:34.120 done these victims. They called the ABC killings, even though 254 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:38.039 it's not that clear whether it actually was A B 255 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.840 and C, but it was for the names of the 256 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:45.120 town for the dump sites were near, and so he 257 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.679 went in and he helped her make this profile and 258 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:53.159 turned out to be mostly sithole. So I just think 259 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:57.720 I've always thought that was an interesting case. We kind 260 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:01.759 of had this issue with the media of not covering 261 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:07.880 crimes that are black serial killers or Hispanic serial killers, minorities. 262 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.400 We tend not to put as much emphasis on those 263 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.119 and even on females as we do on white males, 264 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.960 and in particular in America. So I hear things like, 265 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.359 you know, they're just don't just send the serial killers anymore. 266 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:26.759 But in fact they're just not being covered by the media. 267 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:32.319 We certainly have them that they're also top. They're also 268 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.960 coming up in many other countries that didn't used to 269 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:40.160 have these kinds of organized focused investigations and they didn't 270 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.319 record people as serial killers, but now that's changing. So 271 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:48.799 it's very difficult to really stay from one decade to another, 272 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.119 from one country to another, who has the most or 273 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.839 when we're the most, also in part because of the 274 00:17:55.960 --> 00:18:00.440 evolving definition of a sterio killer. But we certainly evans 275 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:07.240 and especially as we get more sophisticated technology, more sophisticated 276 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:13.160 recording of crime and linking them to offenders, we're certainly 277 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:16.759 seeing a lot more of that. But we are definitely 278 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.880 seeing them among minorities as well. And in this case, 279 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:24.279 I think because Moses Fithole was black, it just didn't 280 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.119 make the news the way I think internationally, the way 281 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:29.680 I think it probably should have. 282 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:38.200 You also include some horrifying details of murder once apartheid 283 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:42.240 ends in Africa. You have the Cape Town strangler tortured 284 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.440 and killed at least twenty sex workers, the Donnybrooks serial 285 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:51.119 killer Crysto Boscode eighteen and attempted eleven more, and you 286 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:56.519 had numerous other the Phoenix Strangler, Station Strangler. You say, 287 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:00.000 by two thousand and four, fifty South African serial kis 288 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.839 there's in twenty years an increase of nine hundred per 289 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.960 annually between nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety six. 290 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:10.720 Yeah, I wanted to use the total case to bring 291 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:15.319 attention to that there were so many, and a lot 292 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.759 of it was due to the social conditions at the time. 293 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:22.440 I'm not the analyst and that I'm not really a sociologist, 294 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.039 but people who have looked at that have seen the 295 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.839 rise and violence, and especially as a serial nature, to 296 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:35.440 be very directly associated with the change over after apartheid, 297 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:41.119 the lack of policeeing, the lack of accountability among many 298 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:45.240 of these killers. It's astonishing. I think mods of Sitthole, 299 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.839 you know, is an interesting one even among all those 300 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:53.039 for you know, the ways he operated. But I think 301 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:56.359 I also wanted to bring attention to you know, look 302 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:01.119 at this time period. It's really astonishing how many stereo 303 00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:06.680 murderers were operating in this area at those times, and 304 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:10.960 often you know, not apprehended for a while because it 305 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:14.960 just wasn't the policing, you know, support system as there. 306 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.599 You know, there eventually was. But I wanted him to 307 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:24.079 be situated in a sociological period to show us not 308 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:29.240 just the developmental trajectory of the sterial killer, but also 309 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:34.759 the social components of it. I think he's he's perfectly 310 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:38.559 situated to demonstrate that. And I think I don't really 311 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:42.000 think all serial killers have something of that in the 312 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:46.559 way they developed. I mean, I think you can kind 313 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:50.400 of see that I have the choken stroke killer, you know, 314 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:55.079 the guy who's claiming over one hundred, you know, and 315 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.119 he'll talk about how he looked around for marginalized and 316 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:04.480 that he knew or police wouldn't investigate very much. And 317 00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:08.680 I then he then he moved around from place to place, 318 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.720 very easily escaping because he knew the investigation wouldn't go 319 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.440 on for very long. The resources just wouldn't be put 320 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:20.519 into something like you know, blacks, you know, sex workers, 321 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:25.400 and you know, some small town in Florida or Louisiana. 322 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:32.119 So he tapped into conditions that he thought would support 323 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:36.519 his ability to succeed. And even though we haven't yet 324 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.720 you know, corroborated all the claims he's making, he certainly 325 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.920 got to win a lot of murders because he looked 326 00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:48.799 at what was what was in his best interest. So 327 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.920 that's also very interesting. I do want the book, even 328 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:57.160 though it's a it's thirty distinctly different cases. I do 329 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:03.559 want the book to show the the larger so theological impacts. 330 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:09.799 Sometimes even politics are involved. Sometimes it's about the nature 331 00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:14.680 of journalism. For example, with the jack Umzerbaker case in Austria, 332 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:19.680 we had a group of elite journalists who you know, 333 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:23.559 we're reading the works. He already was in prison for 334 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:28.359 a murder and in life for life? What they were 335 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:32.359 reading things that he was writing. Personally, I don't think 336 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.200 they were that rip. I translated some of them and 337 00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:40.440 it's just a whiny psychopath basically. But they've got me. 338 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:44.400 You know that Art had cured him, and they to 339 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:49.799 use political persuasion to get him sprung, whereupon he immediately 340 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:54.119 began to murder in three different countries, including the United States, 341 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:59.640 and took advantage of the fact that people thought, wow, 342 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.519 you know he's a journalist, you know, and actually he 343 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:06.640 was hired to cover these crimes because not only was 344 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:10.119 he a writer, but he was a murderer. Who better 345 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:15.359 to cover murders these murders, said, someone like him. So 346 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.160 he was given an assignment, for example, to come to 347 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:21.720 Los Angeles and he went to the police department and said, 348 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.880 you know, I'm writing about sex workers here at Los Angeles, 349 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.039 where would I go? And they took him down the 350 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:34.160 shi because the idea was a journalist to doing this, 351 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:38.319 it's certainly not a serial killers. Well they were wrong. 352 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:43.200 The Austrian literary were wrong. Arts is not pure a 353 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:48.039 psychopath and as a result, you know, ten more women 354 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.680 were dead. So yeah, I'm keeping around a lot because 355 00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:54.720 I don't know. But there are themes that wink all 356 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:59.240 these cases in terms of how many of these predators 357 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:04.559 voided conditions to operate as successfully as they could. 358 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:10.000 This case also really demonstrates also the so called rehabilitation 359 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.039 of murderers as well. And you say it couldn't be 360 00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:16.640 rehabilitated through art, but there's been other people rehabilitated through 361 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.799 other things where they impress people and seem to overlook 362 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:24.799 the murders that they were in prison for as a 363 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:25.799 profound example. 364 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:31.519 Yeah, and I think psychopaths are so good, especially very 365 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:35.000 predatory ones. Now, not all the psychopaths there's serial killers, 366 00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:39.759 are murderers or even criminals. The majority are not. But 367 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:44.400 those that are that are predatory they develop what is 368 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:50.400 called context queuing or cognitive queuing, where they look specifically 369 00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:55.640 for those aspects of other people that they can exploit, 370 00:24:57.240 --> 00:24:59.960 and they know how to do it the most success 371 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.359 for once. You know, obviously Ted Bundy and John leyn 372 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:08.359 Gagey are among those. They know how to present themselves 373 00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:15.200 to allay suspicion, to make it seem as if they, 374 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:20.000 you know, are like I guess Bundy is a good example. 375 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:25.960 You know, bright young for looking law students, psychology majors. 376 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:31.480 You know, how could that be SIA killers? Well, they 377 00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:35.240 can be. And I think we've developed a number of 378 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:42.160 strange myths about seria killers that actually assist them in 379 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.960 getting away with what they do. For example, Demons Trader 380 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:52.079 one of the cases where police were actually out looking 381 00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:55.079 for a missing woman that he had just murdered, and 382 00:25:55.640 --> 00:26:00.359 he has used an overnight camping boy Scout camping saying 383 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:04.240 where he was a volunteer kid used that being his 384 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:09.759 advantage by when he encountered the police officer who was 385 00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:14.200 looking for you know, the guy, he talked a lot 386 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:15.960 about the fact that, oh, you know, she said the 387 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.359 boy scout camp out and and you know, because he 388 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:21.839 knew that there's no way they're going to suspect him 389 00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:25.240 or look in his car, which would have been incriminating 390 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:29.920 because he's a Boy Scout volunteer. But you know what, 391 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.200 he's not the only Boy Scout volunteer that we've had 392 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:38.000 who ended up actually being a predator and a killer. 393 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.640 So one of the reasons I actually wrote the book 394 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:47.720 on Denis Rader with him was to offer it as 395 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:53.799 a cautionary tale for police to not buy into some 396 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.200 of these myths, because killers who were very good at 397 00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:02.759 this use the myths. There's a hitch and had that 398 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:08.680 officer just did his job that he was supposed to do, 399 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:13.359 regardless of you know, the whole boy scout persona, he 400 00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:18.599 would have found things that that day, and he didn't 401 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.920