1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,399 Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 14 00:00:46,119 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 3: We've got a special treat for you here today on 16 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,880 mindover Murder because we have so many listeners asking, well, Kristen, 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,719 when are we going to hear about your various book projects. Today, 18 00:00:58,799 --> 00:01:03,159 you actually get to hear about some of my literary exploits. 19 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:05,640 Mister Thomas will have to agree to do some of 20 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:13,000 his literary exploits at some other time, like maybe next month, Bill, possibly, maybe, 21 00:01:13,599 --> 00:01:17,599 But I decided that I wanted to actually write something 22 00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:22,920 long form about CODIS, to codify pardon the semi pun, 23 00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:26,359 right there, everything that we know or are still trying 24 00:01:26,359 --> 00:01:30,079 to figure out about the CODIS database system. It's a 25 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,560 pretty tricky, intricate topic, and I needed to put down 26 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,640 for myself in writing everything that I knew or thought 27 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,959 I knew about CODIS. And then I figured, if I'm 28 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,079 writing it down for me, and I'm writing it down 29 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:43,959 for Bill, I may as well write it down for 30 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:45,959 all the rest of you and share it with you 31 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,879 on our podcast episode as well. 32 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: When this episode launches, which will be Monday, the twelfth 33 00:01:53,239 --> 00:01:56,879 of August, will also put up a copy of your article. 34 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,439 I think a lot of our listeners know we've had 35 00:01:59,519 --> 00:02:02,159 a lot of questions about COTIS, and one of the 36 00:02:02,159 --> 00:02:04,400 things I really liked about your article, Kristin, is that 37 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,640 it hovers a bit about what COTIS is and how 38 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,639 it works. We've had a lot of listener questions about 39 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,599 the system, particularly surrounding the Colonial Parkram murders, which we'll 40 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,520 get into in a minute. I think this is a 41 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,319 great starting point for a good basic understanding of what 42 00:02:21,439 --> 00:02:22,240 codis is. 43 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 3: I tried to give it some context too, because some 44 00:02:26,439 --> 00:02:29,280 people have asked, is your background in crime and justice 45 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,240 and the answer is no, it is not. My background 46 00:02:32,479 --> 00:02:35,400 is decidedly not crime and justice. So I tried to 47 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,919 put in some context how I and how I think 48 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,479 a lot of us actually learned about DNA, CODIS and 49 00:02:41,599 --> 00:02:44,719 various other things. Look for some brief introductory passages, and 50 00:02:44,759 --> 00:02:47,719 then we get into the meat of DNA and CODIS. 51 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,599 I'll go ahead and do what we normally do on 52 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,319 episodes like these. I'll go ahead and read, mister Thomas 53 00:02:53,319 --> 00:02:56,360 will provide color commentary, and we'll go from there. 54 00:02:56,719 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: Sounds good. 55 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 3: Longtime listeners know already that I'm a CSI junkie. I 56 00:03:02,759 --> 00:03:06,199 know it's a glamorized Hollywood version of the painstaking work 57 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,560 that real life law enforcement agency and criminalists do. But 58 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,360 I love it anyway. I can think John Douglas and 59 00:03:12,439 --> 00:03:16,360 Mark Olshaker's excellent books and the short lived NBC series 60 00:03:16,479 --> 00:03:20,400 Profiler for getting me interested in matters of crime and justice. 61 00:03:20,599 --> 00:03:25,240 But it's CSI that turned that interest into an unquenchable curiosity. 62 00:03:25,479 --> 00:03:28,759 And I'm betting that, if we're being honest, here a 63 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,840 lot of you will cop to liking CSI as well, 64 00:03:32,159 --> 00:03:37,599 or NCIS, Law and Order, Quantico, Criminal Minds, FBI, or 65 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:40,639 any one of the dozens of fictional crime and justice 66 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,960 TV shows from the last two decades. We can actually 67 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:47,199 learn a lot about forensics and criminalistics from these shows. 68 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,159 Some of the information is accurate, some of it is 69 00:03:50,199 --> 00:03:53,360 decidedly not accurate. But I'd wager that what most of 70 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:57,120 us know about DNA came from, or at least started 71 00:03:57,159 --> 00:04:00,599 with those shows. Bill. I know you're not a CSI junkie, 72 00:04:00,639 --> 00:04:02,680 but does any of that kind of track for you. 73 00:04:02,719 --> 00:04:04,719 Did you read any of that and go, yeah, right on? 74 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:09,759 Speaker 2: It does. And then the real life investigators and forensics 75 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,759 experts that we've met over the last number of years 76 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,879 have also referenced something which they run into, particularly when 77 00:04:16,879 --> 00:04:21,079 they're presenting in court, the so called CSI effect, which 78 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:27,560 is the influence of these programs on the expectations of juries, 79 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,879 not judges, necessarily civilians who were in a courtroom, often 80 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,759 for the first time, and this idea that there's going 81 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,920 to be DNA in every case and it's going to 82 00:04:37,959 --> 00:04:41,959 be the problem solver that it can be. So it's 83 00:04:42,079 --> 00:04:47,079 very interesting how much these fictionalized shows which are incredibly popular, 84 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:49,600 and I like them too. I don't have box sets 85 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,480 of DVDs like you do, Christen. They have carried over, 86 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,519 their influence is carried over into real life. 87 00:04:58,759 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: I feel like maybe I need to all so include 88 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,319 a photo on our social media page of all of 89 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,439 my stacks and stacks of Criminal Minds, CSI and Profiler 90 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,079 box sets, because Bill's right, I have a lot of them. 91 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: The first time I visited with you some years ago, 92 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,360 I was very impressed by your extensive collection, which has 93 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:18,680 grown since. 94 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 3: It has and it's just part of the even bigger 95 00:05:21,519 --> 00:05:24,680 DVD collection. I refuse to give up my DVDs, even 96 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,560 though we're mainly digital now. But that's another comment for 97 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,120 another day. With recent leaps and bounds forward in DNA 98 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,120 testing and the use of genealogical databases to break cold cases, 99 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,800 the acronyms DNA, endus and codis are now buzzwords in 100 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,800 the media. But if you're still a little fuzzy on 101 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,600 the actual mechanics of all of this, let's all get 102 00:05:45,639 --> 00:05:48,000 on the same page and talk about what it actually 103 00:05:48,079 --> 00:05:50,600 means to test for DNA at a crime scene and 104 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,240 run it through courtis everyone who took basic biology in 105 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,800 school or who learn their forensics from Hollywood knows that 106 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:01,720 DNA stands for a deaxi rab nucleic acid, the double 107 00:06:01,759 --> 00:06:05,720 helix of chemical base pairs adding gwannine, cytosine, and thymine 108 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,160 that make up every part of us. It is hereditary material, 109 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,519 which means we all share parts of our DNA with 110 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:16,240 our parents, grandparents, great grands siblings, and so on. Which 111 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,959 also means we can trace our ancestry back if we're 112 00:06:18,959 --> 00:06:21,920 willing to spit in a tube. Witness the popularity of 113 00:06:21,959 --> 00:06:25,920 ancestry twenty three in ME and other consumer grade DNA tests. 114 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,319 And Bill, I know both of us found some interesting 115 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,199 family secrets opening up to us when our respective families 116 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:34,439 did some DNA testing. 117 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: Yes, that would be the understatement of the year. And 118 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,959 this is unrelated to the colonial park by murders or 119 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,279 my sister Kathy's staff. 120 00:06:44,879 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, none of us learned that we had criminals in 121 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,120 the family or anything like that, but we learned skeletons 122 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,600 that I think our respective families would rather have kept 123 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,800 in their closets. Is that probably accurate? 124 00:06:55,639 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: Yes? And one thing I would say, I'm a big 125 00:06:58,399 --> 00:07:03,319 supporter of these systems, and we can thank ancestry dot 126 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,879 Com in my family for discovering a sibling that we 127 00:07:07,199 --> 00:07:11,800 didn't know anything about. My first word of caution, if 128 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,519 you will, to anyone that was thinking about looking into 129 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,879 their own family background, is you have to be prepared 130 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,800 for the unexpected. Many people, millions of people will put 131 00:07:22,839 --> 00:07:28,120 their profiles into Ancestry twenty three and me my heritage. 132 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,720 There's a whole bunch of them and may discover really 133 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:36,199 interesting things about their families, but they may discover unexpected 134 00:07:36,319 --> 00:07:39,399 things about their families. And you have to be aware 135 00:07:39,399 --> 00:07:42,680 of the fact that all those cliches about DNA doesn't lie. 136 00:07:42,879 --> 00:07:47,279 There's an outside chance that somewhere in your family, and 137 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,240 this happened in both of our families crystals and bills, 138 00:07:50,319 --> 00:07:54,519 we discovered things that we didn't know anything about. There's 139 00:07:54,560 --> 00:08:00,759 a potential to unbury long buried family secrets. 140 00:07:59,519 --> 00:08:04,519 Speaker 3: They're really okay. DNA is contained in hair, skin, blood, 141 00:08:04,639 --> 00:08:08,000 and all bodily fluids. So unless you walk around she's 142 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,240 in LATEX twenty four to seven, you're leaving DNA wherever 143 00:08:12,279 --> 00:08:15,639 you go on whatever you come into contact with. This 144 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,879 is known as Lecard's exchange principle. You leave traces of 145 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,480 yourself on everything you touch, including a crime scene, and 146 00:08:22,519 --> 00:08:24,920 you in return take something of that location with you. 147 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,399 The biological evidence that you leave it at crime scene 148 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:30,759 can then be collected and tested. I think we're all 149 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,600 pretty clear on how that works, but just in case 150 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:36,639 there's anyone out there who's joining the podcast, like now 151 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,080 Day one, that's how DNA works. 152 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: I love the fact, and let's remember Kristin Dilley wrote this. 153 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,720 I love the fact that she talks about walking around 154 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:52,039 sheathed in LATEX twenty four to seven. When I read 155 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:54,360 the article for the first time, I was like, ooh, 156 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,600 kinky Latex twenty fotten. 157 00:08:57,799 --> 00:09:01,159 Speaker 3: That is not in any way I was going with that. 158 00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:02,519 Thank you, and mister. 159 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,759 Speaker 2: Thomas, see you're much more high minded than I am. 160 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 3: Oh my god, sheath. 161 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 2: In LATEX twenty four to seven. 162 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,159 Speaker 3: Oh God, you took it to a bad place. Bill. 163 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 2: It might not be bad. It depends on what you're into. 164 00:09:18,639 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 3: I guess it does. I guess it does. Let it 165 00:09:21,639 --> 00:09:23,320 be known though, that he's the one who took it 166 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,320 to the bad place, not me. Oh. The National Institute 167 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,080 of Justice or NIJ offers possibly the best overview of 168 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,519 what DNA testing can offer in service of a criminal investigation. 169 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:42,279 The NIJS DNA Evidence page states the following quote. DNA 170 00:09:42,399 --> 00:09:45,440 does more than just identify the source of the sample. 171 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:48,799 It can place a known individual at a crime scene, 172 00:09:48,879 --> 00:09:51,639 in a home or in a room where the suspect 173 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,519 claim not to have been. It can refute a claim 174 00:09:54,519 --> 00:09:57,519 of self defense and put a weapon in a suspect's hand. 175 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,440 It can change a story from an alibi to want 176 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,919 of consent. The more officers know how to use DNA, 177 00:10:04,159 --> 00:10:08,159 the more powerful a tool it becomes. And that is 178 00:10:08,159 --> 00:10:11,679 from the nij the National Institute of Justice, So that's 179 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,559 not news to any of us who are true crime enthusiasts. 180 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,200 We all know DNA is the silver bullet of any 181 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,679 police investigation. If there's DNA at the crime scene, investigators 182 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,440 should be able to immediately crack the case. 183 00:10:22,519 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: Right. 184 00:10:22,879 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 3: No, Unfortunately that is not right, at least not always. 185 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:32,000 DNA technology is moving ahead in leaps and bounds thanks 186 00:10:32,039 --> 00:10:36,320 to private labs like Othrum Body and DNA Labs International, 187 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,840 to name just a few, but there are still some 188 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,320 instances in which DNA from a crime scene cannot be tested. 189 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:47,080 The sample might be too old and has degraded over time, 190 00:10:47,399 --> 00:10:50,919 or due to incorrect collection or handling. The sample might 191 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,919 have been contaminated in some way that wouldn't allow for 192 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,000 a clean or reliable result, like being stored incorrectly in 193 00:10:58,039 --> 00:11:00,559 a hot warehouse or in the back of some one's car. 194 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,960 There are several reasons why DNA might not be the 195 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,320 silver bullet in a criminal investigation. As much as Hollywood 196 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,200 has led us to believe that DNA will always give 197 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:14,840 us an answer, there are legitimately times when it can't 198 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,360 or won't. We are sadly familiar with that truth. In 199 00:11:18,399 --> 00:11:22,240 the Colonial Parkway murders investigation, not all sources of DNA 200 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,200 evidence will yield a result. 201 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: This reference, Kristin, that you're making is to the recent 202 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,120 history in the Colonial Parkway murders. We did manage to 203 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,559 surmount a whole series of challenges thanks to the Virginia 204 00:11:36,639 --> 00:11:41,000 State Police and the Virginia Department of Forensic Sciences. They 205 00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:45,600 took on a very challenging bit of evidence in the 206 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:50,519 Robin Edwards David Nobling example. They knew that Robin Edwards 207 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,519 had been raped, but we had a sample that was 208 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,759 over thirty years old. It was extremely degraded just through 209 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:04,320 the process of time as well as being contaminated with seawater. Actually, 210 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,840 several labs took a run at this and were unsuccessful, 211 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,039 and then finally one lab which went unnamed. We think 212 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:14,759 we know who it is, but we don't want to 213 00:12:14,759 --> 00:12:18,279 give credit to the wrong lab. They were ultimately able 214 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,039 to work with this badly degraded sample that had been 215 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:25,840 contaminated with seawater. It was also a very small amount 216 00:12:25,879 --> 00:12:30,399 of DNA left. I'm really glad that the Virginia State 217 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,799 Police and their team made the decision to move forward 218 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,440 because that's led to the identification of Alan Wade Wilmer 219 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,440 Senior as the killer in the Robin Edwards David Nobling 220 00:12:41,759 --> 00:12:44,960 murder as part of the Colonial Parkway murders, and then 221 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,440 that led to the identification of the killer Wilmer in 222 00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:53,720 the Teresa Howell murder from nineteen eighty nine. This is 223 00:12:53,759 --> 00:12:56,879 one of those situations where a kind of a Hill 224 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,720 Mary Pass ended up working out very well and has 225 00:13:00,759 --> 00:13:04,799 provided significant answers. As we've discussed here on mind Over 226 00:13:04,879 --> 00:13:09,679 Murder before. Wilmer is also strongly suspected of being involved 227 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,440 in the disappearance and likely homicide of Keith Colincus anddra Haley. 228 00:13:13,919 --> 00:13:18,960 This long shot DNA testing has resulted in answers which 229 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,720 are incredibly beneficial to the Colonial Parkway murders families. We 230 00:13:22,879 --> 00:13:27,960 hope that they'll be further tests and more identification, whether 231 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,000 it's Wilmer or another offender in the other Colonial Parkway murders. 232 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,720 It's a big step forward to see this happen after 233 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,120 more than thirty years. 234 00:13:37,759 --> 00:13:40,879 Speaker 3: There are, also, however, instances in this case where we 235 00:13:40,919 --> 00:13:42,799 know things have been sent out to be tested and 236 00:13:42,879 --> 00:13:45,320 nothing has come back on it. When I was at 237 00:13:45,399 --> 00:13:48,440 Ron Peterson's book launch party a couple of weeks ago, 238 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:51,679 multiple people came up to me and asked, did you 239 00:13:51,759 --> 00:13:54,360 guys get DNA back on the hair in Kathy's hand. 240 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,399 First of all, I said, there's still some question as 241 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,440 to whether or not there was hair there. The has 242 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,600 giving us the run around on that, But the answer 243 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,120 is no, we don't have anything yet that we're aware of. 244 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:08,600 Could be the FBI isn't providing that information, but there 245 00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:11,240 is still evidence in the cases that is being sent out. 246 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,120 Is it actually going to result in anything? We don't know. 247 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,960 We still hope, so we're crossing all of our various 248 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:21,159 digits that can be crossed. Okay, let's say you do 249 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,720 have DNA and it is viable. Then it's on to 250 00:14:24,799 --> 00:14:28,600 the next step in the process and the next acronym CODIS. 251 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:34,360 CODIS stands for Combined DNA Index System, which was established 252 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,120 by the FBI in nineteen ninety eight. You've probably heard 253 00:14:38,159 --> 00:14:40,879 the term in conjunction with the phrase let me just 254 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,440 run this DNA through on just about any forensics focus 255 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,000 TV show. So in the case of my beloved CSI, 256 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,000 you will have certainly heard references to COTIS from Greg Sanders, 257 00:14:51,159 --> 00:14:53,879 the self described lab rat who swabs and runs tests 258 00:14:53,919 --> 00:14:56,840 on all the team's evidence. When he references COTIS, he's 259 00:14:56,879 --> 00:14:59,519 referring to the database that you go to when you're 260 00:14:59,559 --> 00:15:02,080 looking to see if the DNA at your crime scene 261 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,879 matches the DNA found at another or if it matches 262 00:15:04,879 --> 00:15:07,519 an individual whose profile isn't the system. Here's the part 263 00:15:07,559 --> 00:15:10,480 that I think some people don't understand. CODIS is a 264 00:15:10,639 --> 00:15:15,559 collection of DNA databases that are kept at the local, state, 265 00:15:15,759 --> 00:15:19,559 and national level. It's an excellent tool for linking crimes 266 00:15:19,559 --> 00:15:21,960 to each other or to an offender who may move 267 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,960 from state to State. CODIS houses the National DNA Indexing 268 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,559 System or ENDUS, which is the database at the national 269 00:15:30,639 --> 00:15:34,480 level that contains DNA profiles. State and local labs keep 270 00:15:34,519 --> 00:15:37,919 their own profiles, which are also loaded into CODIS. So 271 00:15:38,039 --> 00:15:41,080 when you hear the acronym ENDUS in this article, that 272 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,159 is the national level database. CODIS refers to all of 273 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,039 the databases local, state, and national. 274 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:52,679 Speaker 2: This is really important because one of the things we're discovering. 275 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,919 We're pushing to have Wilmer's DNA put into the CODAS 276 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,159 system according to the rules in the Commonwealth of Virginia, 277 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,919 and this is something we're just learning in recent months. 278 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:11,519 Every state in the Union has different rules. I think 279 00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:14,360 this is insane that we can't come up with a 280 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,519 single national standard, but it is what it is, at 281 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,679 least for the moment. Under the rules of the Commonwealth 282 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:27,559 of Virginia and their policies regarding their CODIS database, your 283 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:33,039 profile as an offender cannot be put into CODIS unless 284 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:37,399 you've been convicted of a felony. Now, Alan Wade Wilmer 285 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,720 Senior are suspect who's identified as a serial killer who's 286 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:45,320 been linked with the murders of three people. Robin Edwards, 287 00:16:45,399 --> 00:16:49,919 David Knobling, and Teresa Howell. He was never convicted of 288 00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:53,840 a felony because he died in twenty seventeen before he 289 00:16:53,919 --> 00:16:57,399 was identified as a suspect in the Colonial Parkway murders. 290 00:16:57,919 --> 00:17:01,799 So now, unfortunately he's dead and we can't put his 291 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,680 DNA into CODIS. Now we're not letting this go as 292 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,319 family members, but we're still looking for answers from the 293 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,160 Commonwealth of Virginia as to what kind of workarounds can 294 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,200 be created. I've gotten very frustrated in the past episodes 295 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,519 because there's something about this that I think is just 296 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,240 incredibly maddening, which is why are we worried about Wilmer's rights. 297 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:30,039 The man's been dead for what seven years. I'm much 298 00:17:30,079 --> 00:17:32,559 more concerned, and I think most people would understand this, 299 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,640 I hope. I'm much more concerned about the rights of 300 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,640 the victims and the families in this and many other cases, 301 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:45,000 I'm much less concerned. I don't mean to be dismissive. 302 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,680 Wilmer had rights too, but he's dead. Yeah, And we 303 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:51,880 have a whole group of people in Virginia in this 304 00:17:52,039 --> 00:17:54,880 case and many others that are looking for answers, and 305 00:17:55,039 --> 00:17:59,119 I think our rights probably should supersede the rights of 306 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,839 a dead man. I'm just the brother of a murder victim. 307 00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 3: I agree, And there is some definitely infuriating pieces of 308 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,640 legal minutia that I get into a little bit further 309 00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:13,920 in this. Now, I learned a whole bunch of really 310 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,079 great information from the FBI's website itself, FBI dec of 311 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,759 They have a wonderful page on COTIS and ENDUS, So 312 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,759 a lot of this information is from there, and I 313 00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:24,880 would urge people to take a look at it. It's 314 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,720 heavy reading, but we'll put a link in our show notes. Okay, onward. 315 00:18:28,839 --> 00:18:32,160 According to an informational article at FBI dec ofv quote, 316 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,680 COTIS is currently installed in two hundred and three federal, state, 317 00:18:35,759 --> 00:18:38,920 and local participating labs in the US. It's used to 318 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,240 share DNA profiles across all fifty states, the District of Columbia, 319 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,200 Puerto Rico, federal law enforcement agencies, and the Department of 320 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,440 Defense end quote. Okay, so note that number because I 321 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,400 thought that was an interesting number. Two hundred and three 322 00:18:53,559 --> 00:18:58,359 labs have access to ENDUS, the national level CODIS database 323 00:18:58,799 --> 00:19:02,000 that is not actually terribly many, believe it or not, 324 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,119 Every state has a different number of and disparticipating labs. 325 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,839 California has twenty four INDUS participating labs, Texas has seventeen, 326 00:19:12,039 --> 00:19:15,720 Colorado has ten, Florida has twelve, Maryland has six, New 327 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:19,759 York has eight. Puerto Rico has won. For our purposes here, 328 00:19:20,079 --> 00:19:24,039 my home state of Virginia has four ENDUS participating labs, 329 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,839 which does not include the FBI lab at Quantico. That's 330 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,720 a whole separate thing. Bill's current state of Connecticut only 331 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:34,559 has one end dis participating lab. The DCFBI lab at 332 00:19:34,599 --> 00:19:38,359 Quantico has two labs within it with access to ENDUS. 333 00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:42,519 The US Army has one lab that participates. Does each 334 00:19:42,559 --> 00:19:46,240 state have enough forensic labs with COTIS installed in them? 335 00:19:46,599 --> 00:19:50,400 I don't think so, But that's another discussion for another episode, 336 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,079 and it probably encompasses budgetary things that I have no 337 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:55,839 knowledge of as a civilian. 338 00:19:56,319 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 2: The labs that you're talking about in this article, Kristin, 339 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:05,079 are not private labs. These are public, state, local, federal labs. 340 00:20:05,519 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 3: Yes, And there's actually an interesting little section in the 341 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,359 section on FBI dot gov that talks about private labs 342 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,680 and whether they're allowed to upload to CODIS and what 343 00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:18,799 kind of access they're allowed to have to cotis. That's 344 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:21,200 a whole interesting section that I'm going to read verbatim. 345 00:20:21,599 --> 00:20:24,839 Speaker 2: You're listening to mindover Murder. We'll be right back after 346 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:31,519 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. 347 00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:34,160 Before we get back to the podcast, just wanted to 348 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,079 remind you that we have a go fundme effort going 349 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,440 on right now. This campaign is designed to help us 350 00:20:40,519 --> 00:20:45,240 raise funds to help promote mindover Murder and specifically to 351 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,039 push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it 352 00:20:50,079 --> 00:20:52,319 if you could support us in any way that you can. 353 00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:56,799 Any donation from five dollars to whatever you can afford 354 00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:00,200 is very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. The 355 00:21:00,279 --> 00:21:02,559 link is in the show notes and in our social 356 00:21:02,599 --> 00:21:07,680 media pages. As always, thanks for your support. Now back 357 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:08,920 to mind over Murder. 358 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 3: Okay, now, let's talk about who specifically is in the 359 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,839 CODIS database, as that can be a case of confusion, and, 360 00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:21,839 as Bill said a couple of minutes ago, consternation, let's 361 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,319 start with who's not in CODIS. CODIS does not include 362 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:32,880 DNA profiles from law enforcement personnel, firefighters, or EMTs. It 363 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,240 does not include teachers like me or other individuals who 364 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,119 undergo background checks and fingerprinting for their jobs. Our fingerprints 365 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:47,559 go to IAPHIS, the Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System. COTIS 366 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:51,480 does have a database that includes military servicemen and women 367 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:55,519 whose DNA is in the database for identification purposes in 368 00:21:55,559 --> 00:21:58,200 the unfortunate event that they are killed or go missing 369 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,079 in action. But here's what COIs does not have. COTIS 370 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:07,160 does not contain DNA profiles for huge swaths of the population. 371 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,759 The DNA profiles in COTIS only account for about fourteen 372 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,559 percent of the total population of the United States. 373 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,079 Speaker 2: Now, question we've been asked repeatedly, and I still don't 374 00:22:20,079 --> 00:22:23,799 know that I have a great answer. Is our military 375 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:30,119 personnel's DNA profiles in CODIS. They are as we understand it, 376 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,079 and that's what you just mentioned in this section. I 377 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:38,519 don't believe that unless an individual is suspected of a crime, 378 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,440 that his or her DNA profile which was put in 379 00:22:42,519 --> 00:22:46,680 during their military service would be freely searchable by the 380 00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:50,319 FBI or local law enforcement to see. Is so in 381 00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:53,960 the person we need to be looking for the millions 382 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,920 of American servicemen and women who have served I don't 383 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,079 think their DNA is searchl in a criminal matter unless 384 00:23:02,079 --> 00:23:06,839 there's a reason to suspect that a particular person might 385 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,880 be the offender they're looking for. They're not just going 386 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,799 to look at millions of people's DNA data right to say, ah, 387 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,440 there's the person we're looking for in the such and 388 00:23:17,519 --> 00:23:18,079 such case. 389 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 3: I think that's a great distinction to make. I will 390 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,960 admit that I am a bit of a data nut, 391 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,079 and I really enjoyed looking at the February twenty twenty 392 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,720 four statistics from the FBI and the NIJ for CODIS. 393 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,319 I probably gathered way more satisfaction out of it than 394 00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:36,759 I should have. If you decided to look at the 395 00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:40,039 February twenty twenty four stats provided by the FBI and 396 00:23:40,079 --> 00:23:42,920 the NIJ for CODIS, Here's how the numbers would break 397 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,640 down into the following categories. In CODIS, there is a 398 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,960 set number of offender profiles which come from convicted offenders, detainees, 399 00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:56,079 and legal profiles. There are arrest d profiles, and there 400 00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:59,839 are forensic profiles, and then the statistics in those little box. 401 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,160 IS also include the number of ENDUS participating labs in 402 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,079 each state, as well as the numbers of investigations aided 403 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,400 by COTIS, and like I said, I spent way more 404 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,039 time with this data than I should have because I 405 00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:13,720 found it interesting. So the FBI det Go page contains 406 00:24:13,759 --> 00:24:16,559 a box containing all of these stats for each state, 407 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,759 and we will include a link in our show notes 408 00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:20,880 to those so that you can look up your own state. 409 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,559 Let's just take a look at Virginia for a second. 410 00:24:24,039 --> 00:24:28,839 According to these most recent stats or the CODIS system, 411 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,359 and Virginia, there are five hundred and one thoy twenty 412 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,839 four offender profiles, and offender profiles means people who were 413 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,720 convicted of a crime. We can go ahead and note 414 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,599 as Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior's profile is not among those 415 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,559 because he was not convicted of a crime. We would 416 00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:52,759 love to remedy that. Virginia also contains three thousand, eight 417 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,039 hundred and eighty seven arrestee profiles. Wilmer would not be 418 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,960 among those either, because to the best of our knowledge, 419 00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:04,759 he was not arrested at any point. Somebody knows differently, 420 00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:07,559 Please correct us and let us know. There are twenty 421 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,240 nine thousand, one hundred twenty one forensic profiles in the system. 422 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,319 That's DNA profiles from crime scenes. According to these statistics, 423 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,799 COTIS has aided fourteen thousand, three hundred and thirty three 424 00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:24,519 investigations in the state of Virginia to date. If you 425 00:25:24,599 --> 00:25:27,039 look at all of the numbers altogether, that means we're 426 00:25:27,079 --> 00:25:30,400 about the middle of the pack in terms of investigations aided. 427 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,920 The highest number by far is California, with one hundred 428 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,799 and twenty three thousand, one hundred and forty seven investigations 429 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:41,039 aided with COTIS. Texas, Ohio, and Illinois put up big 430 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,960 numbers as well. A lot of states have smaller numbers 431 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,119 than Virginia, So COTIS is working for us. It's not 432 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,799 as well as California or Texas, but they're bigger states. 433 00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:52,359 Virginia's looks like it's doing a pretty good job for 434 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:52,960 us here. 435 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: And much of that would be driven by population. 436 00:25:55,799 --> 00:25:58,799 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. Now, if you want the actual number of 437 00:25:58,799 --> 00:26:03,400 offenders in the NASH level CODIS database, it will not 438 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:06,039 keep you in suspense any longer. But if numbers make 439 00:26:06,079 --> 00:26:08,559 your head spin, hang onto your hat. According to the 440 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,000 extremely helpful articles about CODIS and ends at FBI dot gov, 441 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,799 here are the CODIS database stats, and this is as 442 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:22,000 of January. CODIS contains over seventeen million, twenty six thousand, 443 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:28,039 ninety seven offender profiles, five million, three hundred ninety one thousand, 444 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,839 seventy four arrest d profiles, and one million, three hundred 445 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,720 twenty two thousand, five hundred forty three forensic profiles. I 446 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:40,960 did the math for you. You're welcome. That means there are 447 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,559 twenty three million, seven hundred thirty nine thousand, seven hundred 448 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,079 fourteen DNA profiles currently in CODIS, which represents fourteen percent 449 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,200 of the US population of three hundred and forty two 450 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,480 million people. And that population estimate is courtesy of the 451 00:26:57,519 --> 00:26:58,880 Congressional Budget Office. 452 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,279 Speaker 2: That's a lot of number, it is, and yet at 453 00:27:02,279 --> 00:27:08,200 the same time, cotis's level of hits is still quite low. 454 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,839 Even though there are seventeen million offender profiles in the system, 455 00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:18,240 COTIS is not hitting every single case every single time. 456 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 3: So what does all that mean? Why did I throw 457 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,720 those numbers at you? What are we essentially taking away 458 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,440 from this long explanation? Here are some takeaways. Number One, 459 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,960 law enforcement having a DNA profile does not mean that 460 00:27:32,039 --> 00:27:35,799 they have a suspect. All those numbers only add up 461 00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:39,240 to fourteen percent of the US population, So the odds 462 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,799 that an offender is not in CODIS is greater than 463 00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:47,039 the odds that they are in COTIS. Takeaway number two, 464 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,640 first time offenders are not in CODIS. So if the 465 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,640 DNA profile at your crime scene belongs to someone who 466 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,039 decided to try their hand at burglary, rape, or murder 467 00:27:57,079 --> 00:27:59,440 for the very first time, just to see if they 468 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,039 could get away with it, COTIS is very likely not 469 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,319 going to be all that helpful. Or if your offender 470 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,720 has committed crimes in another state but his DNA profile 471 00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:11,559 hasn't been loaded into COTIS yet due to local or 472 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:14,599 state regulations or just a backlog, you're going to be 473 00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:17,680 out of luck. There. Add to that this little wrinkle, 474 00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:21,759 not all states, as Bill mentioned earlier, share the same 475 00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:26,160 criteria for entering a DNA profile in COTIS, and for 476 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,480 more information on that particular sticky wicket, please do check 477 00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:32,759 out our episode with Lindsay Wade from earlier this summer 478 00:28:32,759 --> 00:28:36,480 where she talked about the COTIS gap lawfully owed DNA 479 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,559 and some of the major problems that law enforcement has 480 00:28:39,599 --> 00:28:42,519 had collecting DNA that is owed to them to put 481 00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:46,400 into CODIS. So all that basically means is you can 482 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,799 forget the triumphant purp walk that you see on TV 483 00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:52,680 after a CODIS hit solves a case for the fifteenth 484 00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:56,400 straight episode. In the real world, we do not get 485 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,200 that lucky, although I think most of us wish that 486 00:28:59,279 --> 00:28:59,960 we could. 487 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,519 Speaker 2: One of the proprietors of one of the top DNA 488 00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:06,440 labs in the country had said to us that what 489 00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:11,759 CODIS is great at is helping confirm information that you've 490 00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:16,799 already put together through traditional law enforcement methods. It's not 491 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:22,240 really that great at throwing an unknown profile into CODIS 492 00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:26,720 and saying, Aha, we've identified the offender. It just doesn't 493 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:30,680 work that way. So from a practical perspective, it's much 494 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,880 more of a confirmation system than it is a discovery system. 495 00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 3: Here's one thing that I did not know until I 496 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,440 started researching this article, and I think we can blame 497 00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:44,039 Hollywood pretty strongly for this one. So here's another area 498 00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:46,480 where CSI and shows of its ILK earn a great, 499 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,400 big fail in terms of accuracy in both DNA and CODIS. 500 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,599 Viewers have been taught by Hollywood that getting a hit 501 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,400 on CODIS is as simple as turning on the computer 502 00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:59,680 and putting the info from the DNA sample, waiting a 503 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,759 few seconds and an offender's name just pops up on 504 00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:06,559 the screen. That is not the reality, again much as 505 00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:09,640 we wish it was. According to FBI dot of no 506 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,880 names or other personal identifiers of the offenders, arrestees or 507 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,160 detainees are stored using the codised software, So that means 508 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,480 that when there is a hit on the CODIS database, 509 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,599 the system does not spit out a name like John Q. 510 00:30:24,759 --> 00:30:28,480 Smith of Squaresville. Instead of a name, COTIS goes back 511 00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:32,279 the information that is stored on the national database, the 512 00:30:32,359 --> 00:30:36,880 DNA profile itself, an agency identifier, a specimen ID number, 513 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,960 and the name of the DNA lab personnel associated with 514 00:30:40,039 --> 00:30:42,640 the case. We become accustomed to the idea that in 515 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,039 just five short minutes or fewer, CODIS will spit out 516 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:47,599 the name of the offender which matches the DNA and 517 00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:50,799 possibly a social security number, driver's license, photo, and least 518 00:30:50,839 --> 00:30:54,359 known address, which will lead to an immediate and dramatic arrest. 519 00:30:54,559 --> 00:30:57,039 And that simply is not how this works. 520 00:30:57,359 --> 00:31:00,559 Speaker 2: No, this is one of those things. It's just maddening 521 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,079 because we've had some experience now with identifying offenders through 522 00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:08,359 this very valuable system, but it's not a two minute 523 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:14,160 exercise in a very colorful lab with extremely attractive lab 524 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,920 technicians both male and female, with no blood on their clothes, every. 525 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 3: All of whom are very well dressed, properly and highly caffeinated, 526 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,960 exactly able to go into night clubs afterward. 527 00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course our friends that have worked for 528 00:31:29,559 --> 00:31:32,400 these agencies have also said, we also don't fly around 529 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:37,039 in lear jets like they do, don't. 530 00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 3: Have big explorers that are packed with all the state 531 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:40,400 of the art gear. 532 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,759 Speaker 2: No, we're not saying that some elements of those pieces 533 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:48,680 of equipment aren't part of the mix, but it's nowhere 534 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,960 are as big, fancy, or fast as you're led to 535 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,680 believe from watching your favorite law enforcement procedural. 536 00:31:56,039 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 3: Although I do think it's really cool that all of 537 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,119 the equipment shown on CSI does it actually works, It's 538 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,400 actually accurate. And our friend Jared Bradley had his wonderful vacuum, 539 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,519 the MVAC featured on an episode of CSI in season fourteen. 540 00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:16,640 I think it was there is accuracy there, it's just 541 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,480 how quick the process happens that's not accurate. Of course, 542 00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:23,359 if anybody can attest to that, it's us. 543 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 2: These shows give you this super attenuated version of how 544 00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:31,960 quick this process is. Remember they're trying to solve the 545 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,279 case in forty eight minutes. They've got to leave room 546 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:37,799 for commercials. Yeah, we can tell you for sure that 547 00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:43,079 it isn't that fast. It's a slower, more methodical process. 548 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,119 Even the data that comes back to them if they 549 00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:48,880 do get a hit, all it says is you need 550 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,759 to contact so and so for more information about where 551 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:56,480 this evidence there's an apparent match came from. There's going 552 00:32:56,519 --> 00:32:58,920 to be a lot more research involved. So we're talking 553 00:32:59,119 --> 00:33:01,279 weeks or months, not three minutes. 554 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,559 Speaker 3: As much as we love the idea of finding some 555 00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:08,079 indiscooperating labs sneaking in there in the dead of night 556 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,319 and plugging in Alan Wade Wilmer's DNA into CODIS, we 557 00:33:11,359 --> 00:33:14,319 couldn't do that. We have absolutely no idea how to 558 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,720 do that. I would not know where to get that 559 00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:20,319 information if I had it. It's just not we love 560 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,000 this idea of immediate gratification. I do think that eventually, 561 00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:27,559 if they put Wilmer's name into COTIS, it will light 562 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,119 up like an Ethan Christmas tree, as I believe one 563 00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:34,319 of our behind the scenes friends has said. But it's 564 00:33:34,359 --> 00:33:37,160 going to take some time, I think, and probably some 565 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,279 maneuvering on our part to find someone who's going to 566 00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:43,359 be willing to take on the CODIS gap. So DNA 567 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,559 and all of its ins and outs is an enormously 568 00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:48,319 intriguing field of study, but as I've shown you in 569 00:33:48,359 --> 00:33:51,519 the last couple of minutes, it's complicated and too much 570 00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:54,319 so for one episode. So we're going to wrap it 571 00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:56,359 for now. But this will not be the last that 572 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,559 you'll hear from us on CODIS, that infuriating CODA gap, 573 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,720 and other issues that are important to us as podcasters, 574 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,960 family and friends of victims and victims advocates. So we'll 575 00:34:08,039 --> 00:34:11,039 keep digging into the crime and justice topics that fascinate 576 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,679 us in you and bring you the inside scoop one 577 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,599 podcast at a time, as we've always done. We do 578 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,880 encourage you to take a look at the information on 579 00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:23,199 DNA and CODIS that is compiled by the good folks 580 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,480 over at the NIH National Institute of Health dot gov 581 00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:30,440 and NIJ, the National Institute of Justice. Everything you want 582 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,679 to know about DNA and forensics can be found on 583 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,559 those two pages. The FAQ section on CODIS and ENDUS 584 00:34:36,559 --> 00:34:39,159 on FBI dot gov is a heavy read, and it 585 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,760 is a long one, but it is well worth your 586 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,320 time if you're interested in the ins and outs of 587 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,920 codis and endus. I also spend some time the Virginia 588 00:34:49,079 --> 00:34:52,719 Law Enforcement Code, and that's also really challenging to read, 589 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,039 with a lot of different appendices and things like that. 590 00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:57,000 But you can definitely take a look at all of 591 00:34:57,039 --> 00:34:59,880 the different state codes for Virginia if you want to 592 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:02,920 see the ins and outs of how our state actually works. 593 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 2: Well, if you're ever looking for an answer to the question, 594 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,880 how do you know when you've become a law enforcement geek? 595 00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:10,920 There's your answer. 596 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. Anybody who's sitting and taking the time to google. 597 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,159 What was I googling? Oh? I was googling what crimes 598 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,880 in the State of Virginia are required to take a 599 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,480 DNA sample from you? And it sent me over to 600 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,639 a couple of different law pages and I ended up 601 00:35:28,679 --> 00:35:32,159 sitting there swimming through all the different all the different 602 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,639 laws and legalities of the state of Virginia, some of 603 00:35:35,679 --> 00:35:38,519 which are interesting than others. T one hundred percent. 604 00:35:38,639 --> 00:35:41,559 Speaker 2: I have become a geek and some of this stuff 605 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,360 is a bit dry, shall we say, Oh. 606 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 3: It definitely is for anybody who really wants to get 607 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:52,039 into the Code of Virginia go to Virginia Law dot gov. 608 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:59,360 Pay special attention to the sections labeled eighteen point two 609 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,360 crimes offenses generally nineteen point two criminal procedure. Lots of 610 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,639 great stuff in there, And if you need a way 611 00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:12,199 to I don't know, combat insomnia, that'll do it. I'll 612 00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:12,920 do it right there. 613 00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:15,039 Speaker 2: You're well on your way to your next degree, which 614 00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:16,320 apparently will be in law. 615 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 3: Right at what point or another do both of us 616 00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:23,079 qualify for honorary criminal justice degrees? 617 00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 2: And I'll ask my son Chris, who's currently in law school, 618 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,280 if he can help us out here. 619 00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:31,159 Speaker 3: Oh, I think that's a great idea. We hope that 620 00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:34,840 we've answered some of your questions about DNA and CODIS. 621 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,719 If we haven't, please do feel free to leave those 622 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,119 questions in the comment section on our social media pages, 623 00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:43,400 and we will do our best too get someone who 624 00:36:43,559 --> 00:36:46,159 is better qualified than the two of us to talk 625 00:36:46,199 --> 00:36:48,800 about it. But we do hope that you've enjoyed this 626 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,639 exploration into DNA and CODIS, and if you have suggestions 627 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,320 for other things that you'd like us to explain to you, 628 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,199 really slowly, in easy to understand terms, let us know, 629 00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:02,159 and we will take turns writing and turning them into 630 00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:03,119 podcasts for you. 631 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 2: We'll definitely be continuing to work on how we can 632 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,360 explore and use practical applications of the Code of System 633 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,400 to help us solve the Colonial Parkway murders and other 634 00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:19,119 unsolved murders in Virginia and across the country. That's an 635 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,280 ongoing conversation. We've got some meetings coming up in the 636 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,360 next couple of months which I think could be very beneficial, 637 00:37:26,639 --> 00:37:28,719 and when we can talk about those meetings, we'll be 638 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:29,239 happy to do. 639 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,159 Speaker 3: Absolutely We've got a whole episodes planned for those that 640 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:33,800 is going to do it. For this episode of Mind 641 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,440 of Murder, thank you so much for listening. We'll see 642 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:37,119 you next time. 643 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,039 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 644 00:37:50,119 --> 00:37:51,519 Another Dog Productions. 645 00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 646 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 647 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin mcleoud. 648 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 649 00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 650 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,079 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 651 00:38:12,159 --> 00:38:13,960 murders on Facebook. 652 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 653 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:17,519 Bill Thomas. 654 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: Five six, Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.