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Did Mike accidentally drown in a Florida lake? 32 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:55.280 Or was his disappearance the result of a sinister plot 33 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:59.400 to kill him? The crisp pre dawn hours of December 34 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:03.079 sixteen thousand began much as they had many saturdays for 35 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:07.480 avid duck hunter Mike Williams on Lake Seminole, where he'd 36 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:11.159 go to relax after a stressful work week. The Florida 37 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:14.360 State grad was juggling fatherhood with a thriving real estate 38 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:18.360 appraisal career, and that very evening, he and his high 39 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:22.280 school sweetheart Denise planned to celebrate their sixth wedding anniversary, 40 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:27.240 But Mike Williams never returned home When an intense search 41 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:29.719 of the lake's marshy waters turned up only his hunting 42 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:33.879 boat and a camouflage hat. Investigators reached the morbid conclusion 43 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:39.120 he'd fallen overboard and drowned, his body eaten by alligators. 44 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:42.439 Nearly two decades passed before the dark secrets hidden at 45 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:47.840 Lake Seminole and elsewhere were finally revealed. Evil at Lake 46 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:52.360 Seminole is a diabolical tale of betrayal, greed and deception, 47 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:55.800 and of a courageous mother who devoted her life and 48 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:59.400 savings to uncovering the truth what really happened to her son. 49 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:03.000 The book they were featuring this evening is Evil at 50 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:06.919 Lake Seminole, the shocking true story surrounding the disappearance of 51 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:10.840 Mike Williams. With my special guests, journalist and author Stephen 52 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:15.680 b Epstein Epstein, pardon me, Welcome back to the program, 53 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:18.439 and thank you very much for this interview. Stephen b Epstein, 54 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:24.560 pleasure to be with you. Thank you very much. Incredible story. 55 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:30.599 Tell us the very interesting backstory to how you became 56 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.240 involved in this what recently interviewed you asked here about 57 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:38.719 your book Murder on Birch Leaf Drive. Tell us about 58 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:42.919 the circumstances in which you first heard about this story 59 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:46.400 behind Evil at Lake Seminole. Well. 60 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:49.319 I am a resident of Raleigh, North Carolina, and my 61 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.039 first book was written about events that occurred in Raleigh, 62 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.879 North Carolina and a criminal case that was tried in Raleigh, 63 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:59.879 North Carolina. This book was written about events that occurred 64 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:04.000 in northwest Florida, where I don't live, and I had 65 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:08.240 never heard a thing about this story until August of 66 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.960 twenty nineteen when I was taking my son, picking my 67 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:14.960 son up actually from the locker room at his high 68 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.319 school following an away football game, and I just so 69 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:21.040 happened to turn on a podcast as I was starting 70 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:23.399 to get interested in at least thinking about a topic 71 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:26.959 for a new book, and I heard a podcast, A criminal, 72 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:32.680 a true crime podcast on this case, and I was 73 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:37.079 enraptured from the very first words of the podcast, and 74 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.920 literally could do nothing else but think about what I 75 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:43.879 had heard for days afterward, and pretty much knew that 76 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:48.199 I just had to write this story. 77 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:54.120 Tell us about Lake Seminole and Tallahassee, Florida, and just 78 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:57.240 a little bit about the area geography. 79 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:02.079 Geographical sure, so, Tallahassee is located at the eastern edge 80 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:04.560 of the Florida Panhandle. As most people know, it's the 81 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:06.839 capital of the State of Florida. All of state government 82 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:10.639 pretty much is located in Tallahassee, and Florida State University 83 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:14.560 is centered in Tallahassee. Those are, in fact, the two 84 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:18.000 largest employers in Tallahassee, the State of Florida and Florida 85 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:22.639 State University. You got Georgia. The Georgia border is thirty 86 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.879 miles to the north and the Gulf of Mexico is 87 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:28.480 thirty miles to the south. Now, Lake Seminole is about 88 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:34.800 an hour northwest of Tallahassee, although it has become a 89 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:39.839 huge hunting and fishing mecca for folks from all over Florida, 90 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:45.079 especially in the Florida Panhandle. It's a reservoir that was 91 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:51.800 created by damming three different rivers that pretty much flow 92 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:57.199 in the northern portion of Florida, the western portion of Georgia, 93 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:02.040 and just below the southeastern corner of Alabama. And it's 94 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:04.759 a massive area. Its shoreline is three hundred and seventy 95 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:09.439 six miles and lots of outdoorsmen and outdoors women have 96 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:11.319 been going there since it was created in the nineteen 97 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.480 fifties in order to hunt and fish exactly what Mike 98 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.639 Williams was doing. The early morning hours of December sixteenth, 99 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:18.879 two thousand. 100 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.319 Now, tell us a little bit, as you do about 101 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:25.639 Jerry Michael Williams was thirty one at that time. Tell 102 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:27.920 us a little bit about his occupation and the type 103 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:30.360 of character he was and the kind of things that 104 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:31.759 he really really enjoyed. 105 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:37.759 Jerry Michael Williams, who went by Mike, was the younger 106 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:42.639 of two siblings, born to Jerry Williams and Cheryl Williams. 107 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:49.360 They lived a fairly meager, modest existence. He grew up 108 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:53.720 in a mobile home that was on a fairly large 109 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.879 expanse of land, his parents believing, especially his mom, that 110 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:03.160 the furnishings and appliances weren't nearly as important as the outdoors, 111 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:06.040 and so Mike became an outdoorsman from an early age, 112 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:09.519 hunting with a bow and arrow in his woods. There 113 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:11.360 was a lake a couple of miles from his house 114 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:13.120 he would bike down to, and that's where he first 115 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:15.920 started duck hunting, a lake called Lake Ammonia. Florida's got 116 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.279 zillions of lakes everywhere, and lots of folks, especially in 117 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:23.879 the northwest corner of Florida, become avid hunters and fishermen. 118 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:28.639 He certainly became an avid hunter from an early age. 119 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:32.000 He was very very popular as a kid. He became 120 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:35.920 the president of his high school class. He went to 121 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:39.519 a small Christian school called North Florida Christian School, which 122 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:43.959 actually began as a segregation academy after Brown versus Board 123 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.040 of Education. It was all white back in those days. 124 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:52.000 It since integrated, but he was very friendly. People really 125 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:54.839 liked him a lot. As a kid, he didn't get 126 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:57.560 into Florida State, which was his dream. Initially, he went 127 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:01.199 to Florida and m University or fam you on a 128 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:04.040 track scholarship. After one year he was able to get 129 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:07.920 into Florida State and then graduated from Florida State and 130 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:11.199 was already working for the person who became his employer 131 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:15.000 named Clay Ketcham, who ran a small real estate appraisal 132 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:18.600 firm in Tallahassee on thomas Ville Road, and Mike eventually 133 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:23.000 became his star appraiser. He was a workaholic, working fifteen 134 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:27.399 sixteen hour days. He would have his early morning shift, 135 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:30.480 he would have his night shift, and he would come 136 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:34.200 home for dinner and would play with his pride and 137 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:36.879 joy Annsley, who was nineteen months old at the time 138 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:39.039 of his death, and then he'd go back into work. 139 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.720 Sometimes he'd even take her and she'd be asleep in 140 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:45.799 the in the car seat, and he'd rock his baby 141 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:48.440 with his foot while he attended to his paperwork from 142 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:51.039 his appraisal work, sometimes not going home until one or 143 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:54.080 two o'clock in the morning. Mike was married to his 144 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.159 high school sweetheart, Denise. She was Denise Merrill when he 145 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:01.159 met her in the ninth grade. They were a girlfriend 146 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.120 and girlfriend and boyfriend pretty much ever since, and were 147 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:11.399 married in nineteen ninety four, on December seventeenth of nineteen 148 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:15.279 ninety four, six years almost to the day before he 149 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.639 vanished and as we learned later, was murdered. 150 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:23.759 Now you talk about his real estate appraiser job with 151 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:27.240 somebody who becomes a mentor and his boss is Clay, 152 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.440 and also about his best friend that he met, Brian 153 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.960 Winchester in high school, and this relationship and its continuance 154 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:40.759 to the point where he and his wife Kathy are 155 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:45.080 expecting a baby at the same time that Denise and 156 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:50.320 Mike are having expecting Annesley, their daughter. After Kathy and 157 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:53.720 Brian's baby, tell us a little bit more about the 158 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:59.720 relationship and their trip through university and some of the 159 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:04.559 things that they shared in common, especially Brian and Mike. 160 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:10.559 Well, it's actually interesting because Kathy Aldridge was a girlfriend 161 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:15.799 to Mike before he became a girlfriend to Brian. Kathy 162 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.559 had gone to school with Mike for a lot longer 163 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:22.360 than Brian had. Brian and Mike met just like Brian 164 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:25.240 and Denise met in the ninth grade. Both Brian and 165 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:28.000 Denise had gone to a different private school up until 166 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:30.519 the ninth grade, and they both started at North Florida 167 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:33.480 Christian School in the ninth grade. And just as quickly 168 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:40.039 as Denise became Mike's girlfriend, Brian Winchester became Mike's best friend. 169 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.159 There was there were a lot of differences in upbringing 170 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:47.720 between Brian Winchester and Mike Williams. Unlike the meager existence 171 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:53.120 that Mike's family had, Brian Winchester grew up in fairly 172 00:10:53.240 --> 00:11:01.639 lavish surroundings. His father was a financial advisor and also 173 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:06.279 an insurance agent, and was very well connected with Tallahassee's 174 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.320 upper crust. They lived in a very nice home right 175 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.879 off of Lake McBride, one of the many many lakes 176 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:17.120 in the area, and Brian grew up not wanting for anything, 177 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:20.559 and he went on nice trips with his family. They 178 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:24.159 had a ski boat. He became an excellent water skier. 179 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:28.240 In fact, he ultimately won several water skiing competitions. And 180 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:30.399 he hunted a lot as well, and they would go 181 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.159 on exotic hunting trips, he and his father, and eventually 182 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:36.639 Mike was invited to go on these trips, to go 183 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:40.240 hunting with them, to go water skiing with them, and 184 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:44.639 in fact, Marcus Winchester, Brian's dad, started looking at Mike 185 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:47.360 as being another son because he was there that often, 186 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.960 and he and his son Brian adored Mike so much. 187 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:56.080 You talk about about Brian as well. You were talking 188 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.080 about Brian as well and his father Brazil, but also 189 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:04.240 that our pardon me, that's where Mike worked. But he 190 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.399 was a financial assurance salesman. Yeah, there there were insurance 191 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:14.039 salesman and financial advisor. So what did pardon me, what 192 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:18.080 did Brian recommend to Mike in regarding insurance? 193 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:25.159 So, Brian Winchester after he graduated from Florida State at 194 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:27.480 the same time, Mike graduated from Florida State and went 195 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:30.120 to work for CATCHMIM Appraisal. Brian went to work at 196 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:34.960 Winchester Financial Group, his dad's firm, and started selling insurance 197 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:40.399 and most significantly life insurance, and Brian sold several policies 198 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:43.440 to Mike along the way. In fact, he sold policies 199 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:47.399 to many of his North Florida Christian and Florida State classmates. 200 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.360 And that's kind of what you do when you're getting started. 201 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:53.879 And so Mike's first policy was purchased through Winchester Financial 202 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:57.519 Group and Brian and several more policies all the way 203 00:12:57.559 --> 00:12:59.960 up until a policy that he bought for one million 204 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.799 dollars in April of two thousand. 205 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:07.919 Now this relationship is by the time he buys this 206 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:12.600 policy for over a million dollars. Tell us about the 207 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:21.039 relationship after Annesley is born and what happens with Denise's 208 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:24.679 job where she worked, what happens with that employment. 209 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.720 Denise worked for the Florida Board of Administration, which was 210 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.000 part of state government, and she was an accountant. And 211 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:34.759 after she was always going to take some time off, 212 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:38.799 and she did. After Annesley was born. She eventually started 213 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:42.879 going back to work part time, but not very much 214 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.559 at all. Mike was the one who was making pretty 215 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:48.279 much all of the money for the family and Denise 216 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:52.240 stayed at home. She claimed to have postpartum depression. Mike 217 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:55.480 was sympathetic about that, and Mike took on many of 218 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:59.279 the child rearing responsibilities in addition to the fifteen or 219 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:01.559 sixteen hours of work that he put in each day. 220 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:05.200 By the time of his murder, he was making close 221 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:08.159 to two hundred thousand dollars a year. Denise was only 222 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:10.919 working part time, and yet it was Mike who was 223 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.799 laboring many of the child rearing responsibilities that in that 224 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:18.279 situation you would have fought Denise would have been shouldering. 225 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.440 Tell us also, one of the reasons why I thought 226 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.320 it was odd that there was this much life insurance, 227 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.799 and it was this much put this much life insurance? 228 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:33.120 What it was? What was one of the reasons that 229 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:38.440 involved his hunting hobby that affected this push for more 230 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:39.600 life insurance. 231 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:43.519 Well, there were really two reasons why Mike wound up 232 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:45.799 purchasing as much life insurance as he did. The first 233 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:49.639 was his own father, Jerry died as the result of 234 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.360 a freak accident when he was only sixty years old 235 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:57.759 and really left Cheryl Mike's mom in the lurch. He 236 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:01.080 carried very little life insurance and not even enough to 237 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.919 last Cheryl a year. Cheryl, by the way, I was 238 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.879 just mentioned as an aside, ran a baby sitting her 239 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:10.200 daycare service from her mobile home that she's run for 240 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.840 over fifty years. She runs it to this day. But 241 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:17.039 that didn't make very much money, and when Jerry or 242 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.519 JJ died, it left her in a terrible financial lurch 243 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:24.240 and Mike. Mike was well aware of their financial situation 244 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.240 all growing up, didn't want to have an adult life 245 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.360 that was as strapped for money as his mom and 246 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.639 dad's adult life was, and certainly didn't want his family 247 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:37.519 left in a lurch the way that Cheryl was left 248 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.519 in a lurch when her husband JJ was killed. So 249 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:45.120 Mike always knew that he wanted to provide for his 250 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:47.200 family and that's why he worked so hard and made 251 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.519 so much money. But he also knew that as a 252 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:55.399 hunter and fisherman, he was exposed to circumstances that created 253 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:59.919 risk risked to his own safety and his boss, Claike 254 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:03.440 catch him when he brought the subject of life insurance 255 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:06.840 to Clay. When Mike did, Clay actually told him to 256 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.720 load up on insurance that he knew how hard it 257 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:13.440 was for Mike's mom After his father passed away without 258 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:16.360 leaving much an insurance, and he knew the risks that 259 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:19.159 Mike was taking as a hunter and a fisherman, and 260 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:21.039 he knew how important it was to Mike to be 261 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.600 able to provide for his family. So he heard lots 262 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.120 of voices telling him, including Brian's voice, that it was 263 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.039 smart and wise for him to have that level of 264 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.000 insurance to make sure his family was provided for in 265 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:35.639 case something happened to him. 266 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:39.000 Now, you talked about Brian Winchester not only selling life 267 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:43.799 insurance policy and financial advice. They were best friends since 268 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:46.759 high school, But what is the situation in terms of 269 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:52.120 their friendship, in terms of couples and that kind of socializing. 270 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:53.200 What was the situation? 271 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:58.240 So by the time they were in eleventh twelfth grade, 272 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:01.799 they became a fear some forsome. As I describe it 273 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:05.640 in the book, Kathy and Brian and Mike and Denise 274 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:10.440 were inseparable. They did everything together. They went out to 275 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:13.200 night clubs together, they went to dinner together. They were 276 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:16.119 in each other's homes constantly. They even took a trip 277 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:22.839 to Colorado together in the late nineteen nineties. They were 278 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.359 almost like a family. The four of them. They spent 279 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:31.079 that much time together and they really enjoyed being around 280 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:34.599 each other. There were, however, and you may have been 281 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:36.680 getting to this, but there were, however, a couple of 282 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.680 occasions as we get into two thousand, where Mike begged 283 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:46.000 off participating in for someome activities and where just the 284 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:49.079 three of them wound up going to a couple of 285 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:53.079 places without Mike there, and so that was changing a 286 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.200 little bit. In the year two thousand, of the year 287 00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:58.480 that Mike was ultimately killed. 288 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:05.759 Brian and Mike would have conversations, and Mike was close 289 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:10.319 with Clay as well. But one of the conversations he 290 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:16.759 had with Brian was about his relationship with Denise after 291 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.480 his daughter was born. What was the situation and what 292 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.880 did Mike have to say to Brian about that. 293 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:29.480 Well. With to Brian, he revealed that his sex life 294 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.519 had dried up, that Denise continued to complain of having 295 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.480 postpartum depression and used that as an excuse not to 296 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.839 have sex with him, and that was really bothering him. 297 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:46.880 In fact, the day after Mike was killed, or the 298 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:49.480 day that Mike was killed, was the eve of their 299 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:51.680 wedding anniversary. They were supposed to go on a trip 300 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.799 to the Gibson Inn in Apalachicola Bay, which is right 301 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:58.799 on the Gulf of Mexico, a beautiful seaside tourist spot 302 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:03.079 where Mike was hoping they were going to basically light 303 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.480 that flame again, and it was a really important trip 304 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:08.640 to him, and he was a little bit surprised in 305 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:10.640 view of how things had been that Denise had agreed 306 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:12.960 to go with him on that trip. So that was 307 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:16.720 going to be that Saturday, December sixteenth, after that duck 308 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.200 hunting trip that he was on that morning, they were 309 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:23.480 supposed to head to Apalachicola Bay and spend the evening 310 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:26.640 and rekindle their relationship on the eve of their sixth 311 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:29.559 wedding anniversary. Obviously that never happened. 312 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:37.119 Mike talks to his confidant and, like I said, Mentor Clay, 313 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.960 where he works, his boss, what does he say to 314 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:47.440 him previous to this anniversary in the short period before that, 315 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:51.519 what does he talk about actually doing in his marriage 316 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:53.920 and some of the issues, what are those? 317 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.680 Mike had started noticing some things. It's clear he was 318 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:02.039 grabbing a whole of some pieces of a puzzle. He 319 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:04.920 didn't even know what the puzzle was. But he was 320 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:08.240 grabbing hold of some pieces of the buzz puzzle. For instance, 321 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:11.960 Denise took a cash advance of three thousand dollars on 322 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.079 their credit card, unbeknownst to Mike, and yet they had 323 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:18.880 an agreement that they would never use more than fifty 324 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:21.160 dollars on a credit card without telling the other what 325 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:23.680 it was for. And yet Denise had never told him 326 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.680 about this, And when he confronted Denise, Denise told him 327 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.279 it was to buy marijuana and that she was using 328 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:34.039 it in pot brownies, which was very disturbing to Mike 329 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.440 and he didn't quite know what to make of that. 330 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:41.200 In addition, when he went to New Orleans on a 331 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.799 trip in order to get close to reaching the highest 332 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:48.640 rung of certification as an appraiser, he had to take 333 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:52.640 certain seminars and he went there. Denise had been invited 334 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.480 invited by Clay Ketcham to go with Mike on that trip, 335 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.359 and Clay Ketcham would have paid for it, and Denise 336 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.920 said no. Mike went alone, and afterwards Mike learned that 337 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:06.440 she and Brian and Cathy had gone to Orlando to 338 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.599 a club and nan club Firestone, which was reputed to 339 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:12.240 be a place where a lot of drugs were traded 340 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:16.720 and used, and Mike started forming this impression that Denise 341 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:21.599 was becoming a hardcore drug user and for that reason, 342 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:26.440 he was starting to think about life without Denise, that 343 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:29.279 perhaps it would be better for him to move on 344 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.039 from Denise because he wanted to protect Annsley, and he 345 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.480 also talked with Clay about getting custody of Ansley away 346 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:40.119 from Denise. Ultimately, nothing ever came from that. Clay was 347 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:44.079 concerned initially, but that seemed to blow over eventually and 348 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:48.119 again by December sixteen, two thousand, Mike is thinking he's 349 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.200 heading to Apalachicola Bay to the Gibson Inn to have 350 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:53.680 a romantic evening on the eve of his sixth wedding 351 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:56.839 anniversary with Denise, but he never made it. 352 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:03.799 Tell us about Cheryl and now her son and Mike's 353 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.359 brother Nick tell us about a little bit about the 354 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:12.119 relationship and what they do ritualistically and what happens on 355 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:15.720 Thursday before this on December fourteenth. 356 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.519 So Cheryl is the true matriarch of the family. I 357 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:23.400 get the impression that Jerry JJ was more of the 358 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:26.799 silent type, that Cheryl was a very strong willed person, 359 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:29.920 probably from the moment she came out of her mom's womb. 360 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:34.680 And it was important for Cheryl to maintain a close 361 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:38.559 connection with her boys even as they were adults, and 362 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:42.400 they ultimately created this ritual where they would get together 363 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:46.759 to watch Friends, the sitcom Friends on NBC on Thursday nights. 364 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:52.960 So they would typically his older brother Nick would pick 365 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:56.039 up Cheryl at her home. She lived just north of 366 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.839 Tallahassee in a place called Bradfordville, and Nick would pick 367 00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:02.240 her up at her home in Bradfordville, which was the 368 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:05.240 mobile home that Mike grew up in, and then drive 369 00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:09.799 her the twenty five minutes or so to Mike's very 370 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:13.640 nice home in a very nice subdivision which he had 371 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:16.400 purchased with his hard earned money, and they would watch 372 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:21.720 Friends together. Now, that particular Thursday evening, December the fourteenth 373 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:26.359 was Christmas time, so there are Christmas decorations everywhere. 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