WEBVTT 1 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:19.800 Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trib Cast for 2 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:24.480 March eighteenth, twenty twenty five. I am Matthew Watkins, editor 3 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:27.239 in chief of the Texas Tribune. We are recording early 4 00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:30.480 this week. It's the Friday before as the Watkins family 5 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.960 prepares for our trek to Lego Land in California, and 6 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:38.479 this week, of course, as always, joined by our co 7 00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:39.719 host Eleanor Klibanoff. 8 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:43.320 Hello, Eleanor, Hello, I'm excited for you to go to Legoland. 9 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:46.719 I'm very excited missing it. My son could not be 10 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:51.280 more thrilled. And my wife also told me last night 11 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:55.439 that she said that you are the better host of 12 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:58.039 the Tribe cast and that you do better banter than 13 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:00.719 I do. So I just want to this open the 14 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:02.719 floor for you for any banter you would like. 15 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:06.560 To provide high stakes. Now, I will say, every time 16 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:08.000 I end up at a social event with your wife, 17 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:09.519 it is just me and her talking in the corner. 18 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:10.680 So I think she just likes me. 19 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:11.719 That can be right. 20 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:14.560 I'm not sure she's does not like me or doesn't 21 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:19.480 like you, but yeah, you know, I'm honestly, Lego Land 22 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:23.120 sounds pretty great. I've never been is that is your 23 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:23.959 daughter excited. 24 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:27.959 It is my well, she's she's excited for my son, 25 00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:33.560 who is younger and obsessed with with Legos. She was 26 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:37.799 also they were both very intrigued by the Legoland Hotel, 27 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:42.319 which apparently outside each elevator has a whoope cushion. So 28 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:46.079 they they've been talking about this for weeks. Okay, and 29 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:49.319 maybe I will report back in future episodes, and. 30 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:50.719 Tells me there's gonna be like a big setup where 31 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:53.519 they like are tricking you into where you are well 32 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:56.560 aware you're being tricked into using a whoopy cushion. Yes, yes, yes, 33 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:01.239 well that'll be great, we hear meanwhile, recording this on Friday. 34 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.040 It is the bill filing deadline, so we're sort of 35 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:05.879 we're in the weeds, but we're so glad you're getting 36 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:06.400 some time off. 37 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:10.360 Yes, yes, yes, it's good to be the editor. Yeah, 38 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:11.840 exactly sure, all. 39 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:14.159 Right, and this week we are joined by a special 40 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:17.080 guest as well, doctor Peter Hotez, who's dean of the 41 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:20.199 National School of Tropical Medicine at the Baylor College of 42 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.719 Medicine and author of the recently published book The Deadly 43 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:26.439 Rise of Anti Science. Doctor Hotez, thank you so much 44 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:27.159 for joining us. 45 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:28.960 Oh, thanks so much for having me. 46 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.599 I'm wondering if you could have your kids when they're 47 00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:35.599 a legal and make me a funded grant from the 48 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:36.919 National Institutes of Health. 49 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:37.759 Out of legos. 50 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:41.919 Absolutely, that may be the only ones left. So see 51 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:43.919 if you can work on that. I will, I will 52 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:45.639 see what I can do. 53 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:48.800 Worst case scenario will give you a whoope question. That's 54 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:49.520 what we can offer. 55 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:52.479 Do do medical schools good spring break? 56 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:57.039 You know, that's the problem with the medical schools and 57 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.680 academic health centers versus you know, the typical you know, 58 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:05.479 four year colleges because every day, you know, it's just 59 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:09.000 it's all based on sponsored research and grants, the seeing patients, 60 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:13.840 and so summers, the summers don't mean as much in 61 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:14.759 that sort of thing. 62 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:19.000 All right, well, we will do our lego work for 63 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:22.800 you and on your behalf in California. The reason we 64 00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:27.120 have doctor Hotez on this edition of the podcast is 65 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:31.840 because it is March. Therefore, it is the fifth anniversary 66 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:36.159 of the sort of ramping up of the COVID pandemic 67 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:39.879 in Texas. It's the end of March where Texas really 68 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:43.639 started to impose the restrictions. It was the early part 69 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:46.879 of March where the first sort of cases started popping up. 70 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:50.680 It has been a challenging five years for many of us, 71 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:54.479 doctor Hotez in particular, in the aftermath of that, and 72 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:58.360 of course, now five years later, we are dealing with 73 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.759 another public health crime, at least not maybe not on 74 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:06.000 the scale of COVID five years ago, but still a 75 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:09.080 scale that is very concerning. This is, of course measles 76 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:12.759 and the large number of cases of measles as of Friday. 77 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:15.479 As of today, the day we're recording this, Texas has 78 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.079 had more than two hundred and fifty measles cases in 79 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:22.319 thirty four hospitalizations, one death. Eleanor you and the health 80 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:24.920 team have been involved in covering this. Let's just start 81 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:28.199 this conversation by telling us a little bit about what's 82 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:31.519 been happening with these cases in recent weeks and months, 83 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:34.480 where we sort of stand in this crisis right now? 84 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:38.680 Sure, So, this outbreak started in West Texas in Gaines County, 85 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:42.279 which is a small rural county in West Texas, you know, 86 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.920 sort of southwest of Lubbock along the New Mexico border. 87 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:48.639 And it started in a Mennonite community, which is actually 88 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:51.360 pretty common for measles outbreaks. To start in, you know, 89 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:54.959 more tight knit, closed off communities. In this case, the 90 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:59.600 Mennonite community has very low vaccination rates, and you know, 91 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:01.879 it just spread from there. As I'm sure we're going 92 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.720 to get into. Texas has seen declining vaccination rates for 93 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:09.120 measles in recent years, which just means there's a lot 94 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:13.199 more people who are sort of susceptible to getting measles 95 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:16.560 is spreading really fast. Basically, the experts we're talking to, 96 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:18.680 we've not really been able to get put a lid 97 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.680 on this, as I think many people had hoped in 98 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:22.600 those early days. 99 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:25.720 Doctor you are one of those experts. I mean, what 100 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:29.199 are you watching when you see these cases in what's 101 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:30.759 happening out there in West Texas. 102 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:33.720 Well, you know, I think the numbers are probably low 103 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:36.399 ball estimates. You know, from talking to some of the 104 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:40.120 public health officials in the ground and colleagues, I'm getting 105 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.399 a sense that the numbers are far higher than two 106 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:46.759 hundred and fifty because some are not seeking medical attention 107 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:53.279 and others, you know, trying to do remedies at home 108 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:57.000 and that sort of thing, So the real number could 109 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:00.319 be several hundred. And of course, the one thing you 110 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:06.560 cannot hide or hospitalization. So thirty four hospitalizations. That's pretty rough, 111 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:10.600 especially since probably most of those are kids, and most 112 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:15.319 of those are probably hitting one children's hospital in the region. 113 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:19.399 So the outbreak is centered on Gaines County on near 114 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:21.720 the New Mexico border, as you point out, but the 115 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:24.160 children's hospital is about one hundred miles away in Lubbock. 116 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:28.360 It's connected with Texas Tech. So they're getting hit pretty hard. 117 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:31.079 I would imagine those kids are sick. I mean, measles 118 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:35.000 is a bad actor. You know, roughly a high percentage 119 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:38.839 of hospitalizations. The reason they're hospitalized is because of measles. 120 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:43.199 Pneumonia causes the virus when it causes the rash. Because 121 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:45.560 the virus gets into the blood and goes to the skin, 122 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:48.759 it also goes to the lung and causes this very 123 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.759 severe It's called giant cell pneumonia because of a particular 124 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:56.199 type of cell that appears in the lung, and they 125 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:00.199 require respiratory assistance sometimes even in ICU ad mission in 126 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:04.639 debation of course to one death and encephalitis, permanent neurologic injury, 127 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:10.959 deafness from metals, measles otitis, and ear infection and dehydration 128 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:14.480 from from diarrheal disease. We forget that at one time 129 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:17.240 measles was the single leading killer of children globally, and 130 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:20.800 now it's hitting Texas really hard. So this is this 131 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:24.120 is a humanitarian tragedy of sorts because none of this 132 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:29.199 had to happen. These are almost all among unvaccinated kids 133 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:33.399 and adults that could have been prevented with an MMR vaccine. 134 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:36.240 Measles Monster Bell vaccines one of the best vaccines we have. 135 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:38.759 You know, I make vaccines for a living. We you know, 136 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:42.439 my our laboratory at the Text Children's Hospital Center for 137 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:46.560 Vaccine Development in Baylor. You know, we developed new vaccines 138 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.839 for virus infections, for parasitic disease vaccines. When we design 139 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:55.720 a vaccine, our gold standard is the MMR vaccine because 140 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:58.680 you can't do better, you know, that's our dream, that's 141 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:01.759 our aspiration to make something as good as the MMR vaccine. 142 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.600 We never quite get there, but that's the aspirations. But 143 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:06.079 just to give you a sense, that's how good the 144 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:09.040 MMR vaccine is. And the fact that it's been withheld 145 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:12.879 from these kids because parents have been victimized by this 146 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:17.920 disinformation wave is just so demoralizing and sad, and so 147 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:21.279 it's a lot of sadness all around. 148 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:22.879 And then the last point. 149 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.160 Before I'll let you get a word in edgewise, is 150 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.839 it's still going this evergreens every two weeks. 151 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:30.839 The reason I say that. 152 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:34.799 Is each time the number goes higher. Remember the incubation 153 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.759 period from the time you're infected with the virus to 154 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:40.240 you show the symptoms the rash and the three seas, 155 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:45.080 the cariiza, conjunctivitis, and cough. It takes about twelve to 156 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:49.360 thirteen days. So we know at least this epidemic will 157 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:51.759 lasts to the end of the month. And I think 158 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:54.320 at this point it's going to go well into the spring. 159 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:57.799 And so this rint for the long haul in this one, unfortunately. 160 00:08:58.159 --> 00:08:58.320 Right. 161 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:00.240 And one of the things they say about measles, right 162 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.320 is when you're not vaccinated, vaccinated, it's just kind of 163 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:06.399 unbelievably you. 164 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:10.440 Know, so contagious. Yeah, so contagious. Yeah, It's like I 165 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:13.120 think it's like if you are unvaccinated and you're in 166 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:15.639 the room two hours after someone with measles has been there, 167 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:17.840 even ninety percent chance of getting it. 168 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:21.279 Yeah, it's there's there's two there's two factors in that 169 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:25.120 one the inoculum required to be for you to become infected. 170 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:27.720 That is, the number of virus particles is very small. 171 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.279 And as as you just pointed out, the virus can 172 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:33.559 linger in the atmosphere, so you don't even have to 173 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:36.720 be in direct contact with someone with measles. Someone could 174 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:43.080 have been there, coughed, sneezed, spread virus particles in the atmosphere. 175 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:44.159 It aerosolizes. 176 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:47.039 You can go in two hours later and then contract 177 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:50.639 the virus. And that's why the measles virus has one 178 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:53.919 of the highest what we call reproductive numbers that we 179 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:57.159 know about and infectious diseases. A reproductive number means the 180 00:09:57.279 --> 00:09:59.919 number of people you'll infect. 181 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:03.759 If those individuals are not vaccinated. 182 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.279 So in the case of measles, it's twelve to eighteen, 183 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:10.440 which is even far higher than coronavirus, which itself has 184 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.039 a lot very high reproductive number, especially the omicrob. But 185 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:17.120 this is the mother of all reproductive numbers coming from 186 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:18.039 the measles virus. 187 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.840 Doctor, I hear your frustration, right. It's such an effective vaccine. 188 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.799 When people who are not vaccinated catch the illness and 189 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:31.600 get sick, it feels like something that was preventable, should 190 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.120 have been prevented, and things like that. I wonder if 191 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:36.759 you could help me try to understand as I kind 192 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:39.559 of grapple with the context of this is, of course, 193 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:41.600 and we're going to talk more about this. We are 194 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:45.039 coming off of a pandemic right where vaccine skepticism hit 195 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:48.039 kind of all high new levels, where public officials have 196 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:53.000 in some ways encouraged that skepticism. We're also talking about 197 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:57.840 an outbreak within a kind of you know, contained religious 198 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:02.200 community that has perhaps been traditionally you know, you know, 199 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:06.720 dating back even before COVID, you know, somewhat suspicious of 200 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:10.799 modern science and things like that. I'm wondering what since 201 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:16.200 you have of how different this individual case is because 202 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:19.600 of what's happened, you know, during and post kind of 203 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:22.600 the worst part of COVID, or how much of this 204 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:27.200 is just a type of outbreak that we see sometimes 205 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.919 from very particular communities that might not be as vaccinated 206 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:32.440 as the population as a whole. 207 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.000 Yeah, so a lot to unpack there, So let me 208 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:39.480 let me start unpacking. The First of all, I'm told 209 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.000 I don't have a deep knowledge of the Mennonite community. 210 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:47.039 I'm told they really do not have prohibitions against vaccination 211 00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:51.960 that in general, but that some anti vaccine activists somehow 212 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:55.159 got to them and convinced them of this. So so 213 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:57.960 park that thought for a minute. But let's go back 214 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:03.440 about ten years. So the point is that the anti 215 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:06.320 vaccine movement in Texas, which is probably the most active 216 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:08.639 of any state in the country and maybe the world, 217 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:13.039 started about a decade ago. And in fact it was 218 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.200 a decade ago. I wrote an article in the Public 219 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:19.840 Library of Science more or less predicting this. It was 220 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:23.240 called Texas and its Measles Epidemic, and the reason was, 221 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:27.360 if you remember twenty years ago, over twenty five years ago, 222 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:31.440 the original assertion against vaccines was false claims that vaccines 223 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:35.840 caused autism, and that started with the measles mumpsterbella vaccine 224 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:38.399 and then pivoted to thimerosol and a lot. 225 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:38.960 Of other things. 226 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:42.799 And that's how I got involved with this, fighting the 227 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:46.879 anti vaccine movement because I'm a vaccine scientist developing low 228 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:50.279 cost vaccines for global health. But then I'm also the 229 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:53.159 parent of four adult kids, including Rachel, who has autism 230 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:56.440 and intellectual disabilities, and I wounded up writing a book 231 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:59.960 called Vaccines Did not cause Rachel's autism about my daughter, 232 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.679 which wound up making me public enemy number one or 233 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.519 two with anti vaccine groups, but it also gave me 234 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:07.399 a front row seat to seeing what this thing was 235 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:10.679 all about. And what I saw about ten years ago 236 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:12.759 was kind of a shift or a pivot in the 237 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:17.559 nature of the anti vaccine movement from the main focus 238 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:22.080 aroun of fears that vaccines cause autism, which had actually 239 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.840 started to dissipate a bit until our good friend Robert F. 240 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:28.159 Kennedy Junior just became Healthy Human Services Secretary. Now he's 241 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.279 resurrecting it, but it was actually going down in favor 242 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:36.200 of a different aspect to the anti vaccine movement, where 243 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:38.960 it became more political in nature, around the spanner of 244 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:43.519 health freedom, medical freedom, where it got picked up by 245 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:45.240 And this is where it gets hard to talk about 246 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:47.799 because we're not supposed to talk about politics, at least physicians. 247 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:50.559 Scientists are not supposed to talk about politics, right, We're 248 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.399 supposed to be politically neutral or not. But you know, 249 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.200 I haven't found a way to talk about it other 250 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:56.360 than to talk about it. 251 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:58.919 So I talk about it or I write about it. 252 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:01.519 Not because I care about politics that you're right as 253 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:04.159 an American citizen, your right as a Texan, but to say, 254 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:07.960 let's uncouple the anti science stuff from it, because it's 255 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:11.080 so dangerous. But about ten years ago it got picked 256 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.399 up by the Republican what was then called the Republican 257 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:17.360 Tea Party in Texas and it started giving pac money 258 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:21.519 political action committee money to anti vaccine groups because they 259 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.919 were rallying around this concept, which I consider it kind 260 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:28.000 of a propaganda concept around health freedom, medical freedom. You 261 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:30.480 can't tell us what to do with our kids. And 262 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:35.799 these anti vaccine groups were, you know, convincing parents that 263 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.159 vaccines were instruments of political control. You don't need to 264 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:42.559 get vaccinated. They were dompling the severity of the diseases 265 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:47.080 they're designed to prevent. They were exaggerating the side effects 266 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:51.240 of the vaccine, and basically working on our state legislature 267 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:55.240 to you know, file anti vaccine language to make it 268 00:14:55.679 --> 00:15:00.279 easier to exempt kids out of vaccinations and put in 269 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.919 a lot of onerous language around the legislation and even 270 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.320 support candidates to run an anti vaccine platforms. It made 271 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.960 no sense, but I guess it made sense because that 272 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:13.639 this became kind of a platform of the far right 273 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.919 and the consequence of that was, starting around twenty fourteen 274 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.600 twenty fifteen, you started to see this very steep rise 275 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.840 in the number of parents requesting non medical exemptions for 276 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:27.480 their kids to the point where we got it. You know, 277 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.320 now over one hundred thousand kids in Texas not getting 278 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:33.600 their full complement of vaccines. And this doesn't say anything 279 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:36.039 about the homeschool kids. We have no idea what's happening 280 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:40.080 with the homeschool kids because they're homeschooled, and probably hundreds 281 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:44.440 of thousands more. And it had this unique kind of 282 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.080 flavor to Texas. But Texas is now being the tip 283 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:49.879 of the spear for the rest of the country, or 284 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:54.600 at least the rest of the Red States. And that's 285 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:57.320 and that took us up to the pandemic. So things 286 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:01.000 were already bad for the fibrus six years prior to 287 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:05.240 the pandemic, and then during the pandemic, COVID hit and 288 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:09.679 it even became more political and more dangerous. So you know, 289 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:11.720 I wrote about this in the book The Deadly Rise 290 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.840 of Anti Science. It got picked up at the SEAPAC 291 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:20.639 Conference of Conservatives in Dallas in twenty twenty one, where 292 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:22.919 you know, they were in there and this is after 293 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:27.000 mRNA vaccines became available for COVID. There was a big 294 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:31.639 pushback around vaccine mandates, which you could kind of understand. 295 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:33.799 But what they did was they went the next measure 296 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:38.120 and falsely discredited the effectiveness and safety of vaccine. So 297 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:42.840 the rhetoric at that SEAPAC conference, you know, Matthew Catherine, 298 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:45.600 the representative from North Carolina, who is there, you know, 299 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:47.960 to paraphrase them, I don't remember the exact words, was 300 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:49.960 more or less to the effect of, first they went 301 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.720 to vaccination and then they're going to take away your 302 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:55.000 guns and bibles, which is again this health freedom medical 303 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:59.279 freedom concept. But then they paraded out all of the 304 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:04.359 most toks anti vaccine activists to falsely discredit the effectiveness 305 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:08.119 and safety of vaccines. And that was what was so dangerous. 306 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:12.000 And then the pylon came from the US Congress, you know, 307 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:15.880 you know, congress or Margery Taylor Green you know, called 308 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:19.480 people like me medical brown shirts, comparing vaccines to the Holocaust, 309 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:24.039 or Lauren Baybart, you know, started calling them fauci auchies. 310 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:28.000 And and then you had Senator Ron Johnson and Wisconsin 311 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:30.799 hold these phony blowny vaccine injury round tables and Ran 312 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.880 Paul was piling on and then Fox News joined in. 313 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:36.640 And this was documented by two groups, Media Matters, a 314 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:40.160 watchdog group, and in a research group out of the 315 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:45.519 Federal University in Switzerland documented how Fox News during that 316 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.440 delta wave, you know, that started around the time of 317 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:53.440 the Seapac coffers. Unfortunately, when vaccines were widely available every night, 318 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:57.839 Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingram, Sean Hannity were falsely discrediting the 319 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.599 effectiveness and safety of vaccines. And then there was another 320 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.920 amplification effect with Joe Rogan podcast at that time. He 321 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:08.799 was not really very anti vaccine at all prior to 322 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:14.000 this and decided to flip to that and started pushing ivermectin, 323 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.720 which does nothing for COVID in lieu of vaccines. So 324 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.480 it became this whole ecosystem. So people in our state 325 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.559 of Texas started, you know, going down that rabbit hole. 326 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.119 And then I'll stop in a second, and the point is, 327 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:32.640 you know, Texas had the worst experience with COVID of 328 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.119 any state in the country terms of total numbers of death. 329 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.720 It's tied with California with one hundred thousand deaths. Although 330 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:43.039 Texas is a considerably smaller population. But of those, half 331 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:47.519 the deaths were needless deaths because just like the measles cases, now, 332 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.359 those fifty thousand unnecessary deaths were in people who refused 333 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.119 to take a COVID vaccine because they went down that 334 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.759 rabbit hole on Fox News and everything else and made 335 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:01.319 an executive decision not to vaccinate. And that's what we're 336 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.279 dealing with. This is you know, it's not some academic 337 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:08.880 discussion or theoretical discussion. This anti vaccine activism in our 338 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.759 state of Texas is a lethal force right now. 339 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.279 Yeah, you know, I think back at some of the 340 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.039 public health crises I've covered as a journalist while while 341 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:23.319 living and working in Texas. The first one that comes 342 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:25.240 to mind for me is I was at the Dallas 343 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:31.359 Morning News covering County government when the Ebola scare happened, right, 344 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:36.480 And I remember the very sort of unified and together 345 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:40.519 approached that Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkin's a Democrat, and 346 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.160 the governor at the time, Rick Perry, took in terms 347 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:44.519 of fighting this illness. 348 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:47.440 I mean, I think if I remember, yeah, he was terrific. 349 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.799 I actually, Governor Perry invited me to serve on his 350 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.839 Infectious Disease task Force right right there you go, And 351 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.200 that was it was all hands on deck, and you 352 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:01.279 know when and Governor Perry was all into the universities 353 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:02.559 and proud. 354 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:02.680 Of that, and. 355 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:06.559 Yeah, so it was it was a point is it 356 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:07.039 was normal. 357 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:08.599 It wasn't crazy, right. 358 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:11.599 And then you have COVID right, and and in the 359 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.000 early days you have Governor Abbott, you know, giving regular 360 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:21.240 press conferences, you know, shutting down businesses and in schools 361 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:22.079 and everything like that. 362 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.079 He then, you know, as. 363 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.039 And I was on his task force then, and it 364 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:26.799 was normal. 365 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:31.720 The normal response was exactly yeah, you know that he 366 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.599 he loosened a lot of those restrictions later on, of course. 367 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.960 And then but you know, when the vaccine came, I 368 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.119 remember him, you know, giving a press conference receiving the vaccine, 369 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:46.279 you know, on on television cameras, everything like that. But 370 00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:49.240 of course, this backlash that you just described continues to 371 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.160 grow and emerge and everything like that. Fast forward to 372 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:57.640 this measles pandemic andreak sorry excuse me, measles outbreak. 373 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:00.000 I call it an epidemic diaesels epidemic outbreak. 374 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.359 Yes, yeah, and you know, Eleanor you have written about 375 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:07.599 this just even just the public response to this has 376 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.839 been very different, right, and it's been largely silenced. 377 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:14.240 Yeah, I mean, I think our government officials have been 378 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.240 pretty publicly quiet about this, like we should say, like 379 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:20.599 the state has mobilized. They've sent you know, the Department 380 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.279 of State Health Services have sent folks out to West 381 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:27.079 Texas to help. They've launched vaccine clinics. They are doing 382 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.400 a lot on the ground. But you know, Governor Abbott 383 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:32.960 has not really addressed this publicly at all. He has 384 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:35.920 tweeted out his statement at a certain point, but saying 385 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.640 that the state is responding. But you know, the leaders 386 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:41.920 from that area, elected leaders from West Texas have not 387 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:44.400 said anything about this. You know, these are people who 388 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:46.400 are very active on social media. Right there, They're talking 389 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.599 about a lot if what we have heard from certain 390 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:54.039 lawmakers is the opposite, right, I mean Representive Nate Shatt's 391 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:56.319 line from Fort Worth, which has not yet been hit 392 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.680 by measles, but he was on Twitter this week bragging 393 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.960 about how his child's children's school district is the has 394 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:07.119 the lowest MMR vaccine rate in the state, and was 395 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:08.720 you know, really bragging about that and saying, you know, 396 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.920 thank you for being patriots, thank you for honoring medical 397 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:13.920 freedom of moms and dads and not you know. 398 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:15.920 Yeah, I mean I don't know where this comes from. 399 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:17.559 But well, I mean I don't know where it comes from. 400 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:19.480 It started ten years ago. 401 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.039