1 00:00:16,719 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trib Cast for 2 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:24,480 March eighteenth, twenty twenty five. I am Matthew Watkins, editor 3 00:00:24,519 --> 00:00:27,239 in chief of the Texas Tribune. We are recording early 4 00:00:27,359 --> 00:00:30,480 this week. It's the Friday before as the Watkins family 5 00:00:30,879 --> 00:00:34,960 prepares for our trek to Lego Land in California, and 6 00:00:35,399 --> 00:00:38,479 this week, of course, as always, joined by our co 7 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:39,719 host Eleanor Klibanoff. 8 00:00:39,759 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: Hello, Eleanor, Hello, I'm excited for you to go to Legoland. 9 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,719 Speaker 1: I'm very excited missing it. My son could not be 10 00:00:46,799 --> 00:00:51,280 more thrilled. And my wife also told me last night 11 00:00:51,439 --> 00:00:55,439 that she said that you are the better host of 12 00:00:55,479 --> 00:00:58,039 the Tribe cast and that you do better banter than 13 00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:00,719 I do. So I just want to this open the 14 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:02,719 floor for you for any banter you would like. 15 00:01:02,719 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: To provide high stakes. Now, I will say, every time 16 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,000 I end up at a social event with your wife, 17 00:01:08,079 --> 00:01:09,519 it is just me and her talking in the corner. 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:10,680 So I think she just likes me. 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:11,719 Speaker 3: That can be right. 20 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: I'm not sure she's does not like me or doesn't 21 00:01:14,599 --> 00:01:19,480 like you, but yeah, you know, I'm honestly, Lego Land 22 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,120 sounds pretty great. I've never been is that is your 23 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:23,959 daughter excited. 24 00:01:24,159 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: It is my well, she's she's excited for my son, 25 00:01:28,799 --> 00:01:33,560 who is younger and obsessed with with Legos. She was 26 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,799 also they were both very intrigued by the Legoland Hotel, 27 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,319 which apparently outside each elevator has a whoope cushion. So 28 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,079 they they've been talking about this for weeks. Okay, and 29 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,319 maybe I will report back in future episodes, and. 30 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:50,719 Speaker 2: Tells me there's gonna be like a big setup where 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,519 they like are tricking you into where you are well 32 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:56,560 aware you're being tricked into using a whoopy cushion. Yes, yes, yes, 33 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,239 well that'll be great, we hear meanwhile, recording this on Friday. 34 00:02:01,239 --> 00:02:04,040 It is the bill filing deadline, so we're sort of 35 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:05,879 we're in the weeds, but we're so glad you're getting 36 00:02:05,879 --> 00:02:06,400 some time off. 37 00:02:07,079 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, it's good to be the editor. Yeah, 38 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:11,840 exactly sure, all. 39 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,159 Speaker 1: Right, and this week we are joined by a special 40 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:17,080 guest as well, doctor Peter Hotez, who's dean of the 41 00:02:17,159 --> 00:02:20,199 National School of Tropical Medicine at the Baylor College of 42 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:23,719 Medicine and author of the recently published book The Deadly 43 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,439 Rise of Anti Science. Doctor Hotez, thank you so much 44 00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:27,159 for joining us. 45 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 4: Oh, thanks so much for having me. 46 00:02:29,199 --> 00:02:31,599 Speaker 5: I'm wondering if you could have your kids when they're 47 00:02:31,599 --> 00:02:35,599 a legal and make me a funded grant from the 48 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:36,919 National Institutes of Health. 49 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:37,759 Speaker 4: Out of legos. 50 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 3: Absolutely, that may be the only ones left. So see 51 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,919 if you can work on that. I will, I will 52 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,639 see what I can do. 53 00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: Worst case scenario will give you a whoope question. That's 54 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:49,520 what we can offer. 55 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,479 Speaker 3: Do do medical schools good spring break? 56 00:02:53,879 --> 00:02:57,039 Speaker 5: You know, that's the problem with the medical schools and 57 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,680 academic health centers versus you know, the typical you know, 58 00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:05,479 four year colleges because every day, you know, it's just 59 00:03:05,759 --> 00:03:09,000 it's all based on sponsored research and grants, the seeing patients, 60 00:03:09,039 --> 00:03:13,840 and so summers, the summers don't mean as much in 61 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:14,759 that sort of thing. 62 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: All right, well, we will do our lego work for 63 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,800 you and on your behalf in California. The reason we 64 00:03:22,879 --> 00:03:27,120 have doctor Hotez on this edition of the podcast is 65 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:31,840 because it is March. Therefore, it is the fifth anniversary 66 00:03:32,159 --> 00:03:36,159 of the sort of ramping up of the COVID pandemic 67 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,879 in Texas. It's the end of March where Texas really 68 00:03:39,919 --> 00:03:43,639 started to impose the restrictions. It was the early part 69 00:03:43,639 --> 00:03:46,879 of March where the first sort of cases started popping up. 70 00:03:47,639 --> 00:03:50,680 It has been a challenging five years for many of us, 71 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,479 doctor Hotez in particular, in the aftermath of that, and 72 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,360 of course, now five years later, we are dealing with 73 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,759 another public health crime, at least not maybe not on 74 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,000 the scale of COVID five years ago, but still a 75 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:09,080 scale that is very concerning. This is, of course measles 76 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:12,759 and the large number of cases of measles as of Friday. 77 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,479 As of today, the day we're recording this, Texas has 78 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,079 had more than two hundred and fifty measles cases in 79 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,319 thirty four hospitalizations, one death. Eleanor you and the health 80 00:04:22,319 --> 00:04:24,920 team have been involved in covering this. Let's just start 81 00:04:24,959 --> 00:04:28,199 this conversation by telling us a little bit about what's 82 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,519 been happening with these cases in recent weeks and months, 83 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,480 where we sort of stand in this crisis right now? 84 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: Sure, So, this outbreak started in West Texas in Gaines County, 85 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,279 which is a small rural county in West Texas, you know, 86 00:04:42,319 --> 00:04:45,920 sort of southwest of Lubbock along the New Mexico border. 87 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,639 And it started in a Mennonite community, which is actually 88 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,360 pretty common for measles outbreaks. To start in, you know, 89 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,959 more tight knit, closed off communities. In this case, the 90 00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:59,600 Mennonite community has very low vaccination rates, and you know, 91 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,879 it just spread from there. As I'm sure we're going 92 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,720 to get into. Texas has seen declining vaccination rates for 93 00:05:05,879 --> 00:05:09,120 measles in recent years, which just means there's a lot 94 00:05:09,199 --> 00:05:13,199 more people who are sort of susceptible to getting measles 95 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,560 is spreading really fast. Basically, the experts we're talking to, 96 00:05:16,759 --> 00:05:18,680 we've not really been able to get put a lid 97 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,680 on this, as I think many people had hoped in 98 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:22,600 those early days. 99 00:05:23,079 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: Doctor you are one of those experts. I mean, what 100 00:05:25,879 --> 00:05:29,199 are you watching when you see these cases in what's 101 00:05:29,199 --> 00:05:30,759 happening out there in West Texas. 102 00:05:31,399 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 5: Well, you know, I think the numbers are probably low 103 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,399 ball estimates. You know, from talking to some of the 104 00:05:36,399 --> 00:05:40,120 public health officials in the ground and colleagues, I'm getting 105 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,399 a sense that the numbers are far higher than two 106 00:05:43,519 --> 00:05:46,759 hundred and fifty because some are not seeking medical attention 107 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:53,279 and others, you know, trying to do remedies at home 108 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,000 and that sort of thing, So the real number could 109 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,319 be several hundred. And of course, the one thing you 110 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:06,560 cannot hide or hospitalization. So thirty four hospitalizations. That's pretty rough, 111 00:06:06,879 --> 00:06:10,600 especially since probably most of those are kids, and most 112 00:06:10,639 --> 00:06:15,319 of those are probably hitting one children's hospital in the region. 113 00:06:15,439 --> 00:06:19,399 So the outbreak is centered on Gaines County on near 114 00:06:19,439 --> 00:06:21,720 the New Mexico border, as you point out, but the 115 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,160 children's hospital is about one hundred miles away in Lubbock. 116 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,360 It's connected with Texas Tech. So they're getting hit pretty hard. 117 00:06:28,399 --> 00:06:31,079 I would imagine those kids are sick. I mean, measles 118 00:06:31,959 --> 00:06:35,000 is a bad actor. You know, roughly a high percentage 119 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,839 of hospitalizations. The reason they're hospitalized is because of measles. 120 00:06:38,879 --> 00:06:43,199 Pneumonia causes the virus when it causes the rash. Because 121 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,560 the virus gets into the blood and goes to the skin, 122 00:06:45,639 --> 00:06:48,759 it also goes to the lung and causes this very 123 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,759 severe It's called giant cell pneumonia because of a particular 124 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,199 type of cell that appears in the lung, and they 125 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,199 require respiratory assistance sometimes even in ICU ad mission in 126 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:04,639 debation of course to one death and encephalitis, permanent neurologic injury, 127 00:07:04,759 --> 00:07:10,959 deafness from metals, measles otitis, and ear infection and dehydration 128 00:07:11,199 --> 00:07:14,480 from from diarrheal disease. We forget that at one time 129 00:07:14,519 --> 00:07:17,240 measles was the single leading killer of children globally, and 130 00:07:17,279 --> 00:07:20,800 now it's hitting Texas really hard. So this is this 131 00:07:21,319 --> 00:07:24,120 is a humanitarian tragedy of sorts because none of this 132 00:07:24,279 --> 00:07:29,199 had to happen. These are almost all among unvaccinated kids 133 00:07:29,199 --> 00:07:33,399 and adults that could have been prevented with an MMR vaccine. 134 00:07:33,399 --> 00:07:36,240 Measles Monster Bell vaccines one of the best vaccines we have. 135 00:07:36,279 --> 00:07:38,759 You know, I make vaccines for a living. We you know, 136 00:07:38,839 --> 00:07:42,439 my our laboratory at the Text Children's Hospital Center for 137 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,560 Vaccine Development in Baylor. You know, we developed new vaccines 138 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,839 for virus infections, for parasitic disease vaccines. When we design 139 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:55,720 a vaccine, our gold standard is the MMR vaccine because 140 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,680 you can't do better, you know, that's our dream, that's 141 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,759 our aspiration to make something as good as the MMR vaccine. 142 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:04,600 We never quite get there, but that's the aspirations. But 143 00:08:04,759 --> 00:08:06,079 just to give you a sense, that's how good the 144 00:08:06,199 --> 00:08:09,040 MMR vaccine is. And the fact that it's been withheld 145 00:08:09,079 --> 00:08:12,879 from these kids because parents have been victimized by this 146 00:08:14,079 --> 00:08:17,920 disinformation wave is just so demoralizing and sad, and so 147 00:08:17,959 --> 00:08:21,279 it's a lot of sadness all around. 148 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:22,879 Speaker 4: And then the last point. 149 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 5: Before I'll let you get a word in edgewise, is 150 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:29,839 it's still going this evergreens every two weeks. 151 00:08:29,879 --> 00:08:30,839 Speaker 4: The reason I say that. 152 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:34,799 Speaker 5: Is each time the number goes higher. Remember the incubation 153 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,759 period from the time you're infected with the virus to 154 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:40,240 you show the symptoms the rash and the three seas, 155 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:45,080 the cariiza, conjunctivitis, and cough. It takes about twelve to 156 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,360 thirteen days. So we know at least this epidemic will 157 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,759 lasts to the end of the month. And I think 158 00:08:51,799 --> 00:08:54,320 at this point it's going to go well into the spring. 159 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,799 And so this rint for the long haul in this one, unfortunately. 160 00:08:58,159 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 3: Right. 161 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: And one of the things they say about measles, right 162 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,320 is when you're not vaccinated, vaccinated, it's just kind of 163 00:09:04,039 --> 00:09:06,399 unbelievably you. 164 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 2: Know, so contagious. Yeah, so contagious. Yeah, It's like I 165 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,120 think it's like if you are unvaccinated and you're in 166 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:15,639 the room two hours after someone with measles has been there, 167 00:09:15,799 --> 00:09:17,840 even ninety percent chance of getting it. 168 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's there's there's two there's two factors in that 169 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,120 one the inoculum required to be for you to become infected. 170 00:09:25,159 --> 00:09:27,720 That is, the number of virus particles is very small. 171 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,279 And as as you just pointed out, the virus can 172 00:09:31,399 --> 00:09:33,559 linger in the atmosphere, so you don't even have to 173 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,720 be in direct contact with someone with measles. Someone could 174 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:43,080 have been there, coughed, sneezed, spread virus particles in the atmosphere. 175 00:09:43,159 --> 00:09:44,159 Speaker 4: It aerosolizes. 176 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,039 Speaker 5: You can go in two hours later and then contract 177 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,639 the virus. And that's why the measles virus has one 178 00:09:50,639 --> 00:09:53,919 of the highest what we call reproductive numbers that we 179 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,159 know about and infectious diseases. A reproductive number means the 180 00:09:57,279 --> 00:09:59,919 number of people you'll infect. 181 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:03,759 Speaker 4: If those individuals are not vaccinated. 182 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,279 Speaker 5: So in the case of measles, it's twelve to eighteen, 183 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,440 which is even far higher than coronavirus, which itself has 184 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,039 a lot very high reproductive number, especially the omicrob. But 185 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,120 this is the mother of all reproductive numbers coming from 186 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:18,039 the measles virus. 187 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: Doctor, I hear your frustration, right. It's such an effective vaccine. 188 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,799 When people who are not vaccinated catch the illness and 189 00:10:27,159 --> 00:10:31,600 get sick, it feels like something that was preventable, should 190 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,120 have been prevented, and things like that. I wonder if 191 00:10:34,159 --> 00:10:36,759 you could help me try to understand as I kind 192 00:10:36,759 --> 00:10:39,559 of grapple with the context of this is, of course, 193 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,600 and we're going to talk more about this. We are 194 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:45,039 coming off of a pandemic right where vaccine skepticism hit 195 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:48,039 kind of all high new levels, where public officials have 196 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,000 in some ways encouraged that skepticism. We're also talking about 197 00:10:53,159 --> 00:10:57,840 an outbreak within a kind of you know, contained religious 198 00:10:57,879 --> 00:11:02,200 community that has perhaps been traditionally you know, you know, 199 00:11:02,279 --> 00:11:06,720 dating back even before COVID, you know, somewhat suspicious of 200 00:11:06,759 --> 00:11:10,799 modern science and things like that. I'm wondering what since 201 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:16,200 you have of how different this individual case is because 202 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,600 of what's happened, you know, during and post kind of 203 00:11:19,639 --> 00:11:22,600 the worst part of COVID, or how much of this 204 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:27,200 is just a type of outbreak that we see sometimes 205 00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:30,919 from very particular communities that might not be as vaccinated 206 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,440 as the population as a whole. 207 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, so a lot to unpack there, So let me 208 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:39,480 let me start unpacking. The First of all, I'm told 209 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,000 I don't have a deep knowledge of the Mennonite community. 210 00:11:42,039 --> 00:11:47,039 I'm told they really do not have prohibitions against vaccination 211 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,960 that in general, but that some anti vaccine activists somehow 212 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,159 got to them and convinced them of this. So so 213 00:11:55,279 --> 00:11:57,960 park that thought for a minute. But let's go back 214 00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:03,440 about ten years. So the point is that the anti 215 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,320 vaccine movement in Texas, which is probably the most active 216 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,639 of any state in the country and maybe the world, 217 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,039 started about a decade ago. And in fact it was 218 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,200 a decade ago. I wrote an article in the Public 219 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,840 Library of Science more or less predicting this. It was 220 00:12:19,879 --> 00:12:23,240 called Texas and its Measles Epidemic, and the reason was, 221 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,360 if you remember twenty years ago, over twenty five years ago, 222 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,440 the original assertion against vaccines was false claims that vaccines 223 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,840 caused autism, and that started with the measles mumpsterbella vaccine 224 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,399 and then pivoted to thimerosol and a lot. 225 00:12:38,279 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 4: Of other things. 226 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,799 Speaker 5: And that's how I got involved with this, fighting the 227 00:12:42,799 --> 00:12:46,879 anti vaccine movement because I'm a vaccine scientist developing low 228 00:12:46,919 --> 00:12:50,279 cost vaccines for global health. But then I'm also the 229 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,159 parent of four adult kids, including Rachel, who has autism 230 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,440 and intellectual disabilities, and I wounded up writing a book 231 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,960 called Vaccines Did not cause Rachel's autism about my daughter, 232 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,679 which wound up making me public enemy number one or 233 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,519 two with anti vaccine groups, but it also gave me 234 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,399 a front row seat to seeing what this thing was 235 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,679 all about. And what I saw about ten years ago 236 00:13:10,759 --> 00:13:12,759 was kind of a shift or a pivot in the 237 00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:17,559 nature of the anti vaccine movement from the main focus 238 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:22,080 aroun of fears that vaccines cause autism, which had actually 239 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,840 started to dissipate a bit until our good friend Robert F. 240 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:28,159 Kennedy Junior just became Healthy Human Services Secretary. Now he's 241 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,279 resurrecting it, but it was actually going down in favor 242 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,200 of a different aspect to the anti vaccine movement, where 243 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,960 it became more political in nature, around the spanner of 244 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,519 health freedom, medical freedom, where it got picked up by 245 00:13:43,759 --> 00:13:45,240 And this is where it gets hard to talk about 246 00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:47,799 because we're not supposed to talk about politics, at least physicians. 247 00:13:47,799 --> 00:13:50,559 Scientists are not supposed to talk about politics, right, We're 248 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,399 supposed to be politically neutral or not. But you know, 249 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,200 I haven't found a way to talk about it other 250 00:13:55,279 --> 00:13:56,360 than to talk about it. 251 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,919 Speaker 4: So I talk about it or I write about it. 252 00:13:59,039 --> 00:14:01,519 Speaker 5: Not because I care about politics that you're right as 253 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,159 an American citizen, your right as a Texan, but to say, 254 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,960 let's uncouple the anti science stuff from it, because it's 255 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,080 so dangerous. But about ten years ago it got picked 256 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:13,399 up by the Republican what was then called the Republican 257 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,360 Tea Party in Texas and it started giving pac money 258 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,519 political action committee money to anti vaccine groups because they 259 00:14:21,519 --> 00:14:24,919 were rallying around this concept, which I consider it kind 260 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,000 of a propaganda concept around health freedom, medical freedom. You 261 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,480 can't tell us what to do with our kids. And 262 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,799 these anti vaccine groups were, you know, convincing parents that 263 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:39,159 vaccines were instruments of political control. You don't need to 264 00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:42,559 get vaccinated. They were dompling the severity of the diseases 265 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,080 they're designed to prevent. They were exaggerating the side effects 266 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,240 of the vaccine, and basically working on our state legislature 267 00:14:51,399 --> 00:14:55,240 to you know, file anti vaccine language to make it 268 00:14:55,679 --> 00:15:00,279 easier to exempt kids out of vaccinations and put in 269 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,919 a lot of onerous language around the legislation and even 270 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,320 support candidates to run an anti vaccine platforms. It made 271 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,960 no sense, but I guess it made sense because that 272 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,639 this became kind of a platform of the far right 273 00:15:13,679 --> 00:15:16,919 and the consequence of that was, starting around twenty fourteen 274 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,600 twenty fifteen, you started to see this very steep rise 275 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:24,840 in the number of parents requesting non medical exemptions for 276 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,480 their kids to the point where we got it. You know, 277 00:15:27,559 --> 00:15:30,320 now over one hundred thousand kids in Texas not getting 278 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,600 their full complement of vaccines. And this doesn't say anything 279 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,039 about the homeschool kids. We have no idea what's happening 280 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,080 with the homeschool kids because they're homeschooled, and probably hundreds 281 00:15:40,399 --> 00:15:44,440 of thousands more. And it had this unique kind of 282 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,080 flavor to Texas. But Texas is now being the tip 283 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,879 of the spear for the rest of the country, or 284 00:15:49,919 --> 00:15:54,600 at least the rest of the Red States. And that's 285 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,320 and that took us up to the pandemic. So things 286 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,000 were already bad for the fibrus six years prior to 287 00:16:01,039 --> 00:16:05,240 the pandemic, and then during the pandemic, COVID hit and 288 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,679 it even became more political and more dangerous. So you know, 289 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,720 I wrote about this in the book The Deadly Rise 290 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,840 of Anti Science. It got picked up at the SEAPAC 291 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:20,639 Conference of Conservatives in Dallas in twenty twenty one, where 292 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:22,919 you know, they were in there and this is after 293 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,000 mRNA vaccines became available for COVID. There was a big 294 00:16:27,039 --> 00:16:31,639 pushback around vaccine mandates, which you could kind of understand. 295 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,799 But what they did was they went the next measure 296 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,120 and falsely discredited the effectiveness and safety of vaccine. So 297 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:42,840 the rhetoric at that SEAPAC conference, you know, Matthew Catherine, 298 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,600 the representative from North Carolina, who is there, you know, 299 00:16:45,679 --> 00:16:47,960 to paraphrase them, I don't remember the exact words, was 300 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:49,960 more or less to the effect of, first they went 301 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,720 to vaccination and then they're going to take away your 302 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,000 guns and bibles, which is again this health freedom medical 303 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,279 freedom concept. But then they paraded out all of the 304 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,359 most toks anti vaccine activists to falsely discredit the effectiveness 305 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,119 and safety of vaccines. And that was what was so dangerous. 306 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,000 And then the pylon came from the US Congress, you know, 307 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,880 you know, congress or Margery Taylor Green you know, called 308 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,480 people like me medical brown shirts, comparing vaccines to the Holocaust, 309 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:24,039 or Lauren Baybart, you know, started calling them fauci auchies. 310 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,000 And and then you had Senator Ron Johnson and Wisconsin 311 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:30,799 hold these phony blowny vaccine injury round tables and Ran 312 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,880 Paul was piling on and then Fox News joined in. 313 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,640 And this was documented by two groups, Media Matters, a 314 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,160 watchdog group, and in a research group out of the 315 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:45,519 Federal University in Switzerland documented how Fox News during that 316 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,440 delta wave, you know, that started around the time of 317 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,440 the Seapac coffers. Unfortunately, when vaccines were widely available every night, 318 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,839 Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingram, Sean Hannity were falsely discrediting the 319 00:17:57,839 --> 00:18:02,599 effectiveness and safety of vaccines. And then there was another 320 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,920 amplification effect with Joe Rogan podcast at that time. He 321 00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:08,799 was not really very anti vaccine at all prior to 322 00:18:08,839 --> 00:18:14,000 this and decided to flip to that and started pushing ivermectin, 323 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,720 which does nothing for COVID in lieu of vaccines. So 324 00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:20,480 it became this whole ecosystem. So people in our state 325 00:18:20,519 --> 00:18:23,559 of Texas started, you know, going down that rabbit hole. 326 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,119 And then I'll stop in a second, and the point is, 327 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:32,640 you know, Texas had the worst experience with COVID of 328 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,119 any state in the country terms of total numbers of death. 329 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,720 It's tied with California with one hundred thousand deaths. Although 330 00:18:39,039 --> 00:18:43,039 Texas is a considerably smaller population. But of those, half 331 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:47,519 the deaths were needless deaths because just like the measles cases, now, 332 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,359 those fifty thousand unnecessary deaths were in people who refused 333 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,119 to take a COVID vaccine because they went down that 334 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,759 rabbit hole on Fox News and everything else and made 335 00:18:57,799 --> 00:19:01,319 an executive decision not to vaccinate. And that's what we're 336 00:19:01,319 --> 00:19:04,279 dealing with. This is you know, it's not some academic 337 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,880 discussion or theoretical discussion. This anti vaccine activism in our 338 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,759 state of Texas is a lethal force right now. 339 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think back at some of the 340 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:19,039 public health crises I've covered as a journalist while while 341 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,319 living and working in Texas. The first one that comes 342 00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:25,240 to mind for me is I was at the Dallas 343 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:31,359 Morning News covering County government when the Ebola scare happened, right, 344 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,480 And I remember the very sort of unified and together 345 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,519 approached that Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkin's a Democrat, and 346 00:19:40,559 --> 00:19:43,160 the governor at the time, Rick Perry, took in terms 347 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,519 of fighting this illness. 348 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 3: I mean, I think if I remember, yeah, he was terrific. 349 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:50,799 Speaker 5: I actually, Governor Perry invited me to serve on his 350 00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:53,839 Infectious Disease task Force right right there you go, And 351 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,200 that was it was all hands on deck, and you 352 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:01,279 know when and Governor Perry was all into the universities 353 00:20:01,319 --> 00:20:02,559 and proud. 354 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 3: Of that, and. 355 00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:06,559 Speaker 5: Yeah, so it was it was a point is it 356 00:20:06,559 --> 00:20:07,039 was normal. 357 00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:08,599 Speaker 4: It wasn't crazy, right. 358 00:20:09,759 --> 00:20:11,599 Speaker 1: And then you have COVID right, and and in the 359 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,000 early days you have Governor Abbott, you know, giving regular 360 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:21,240 press conferences, you know, shutting down businesses and in schools 361 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:22,079 and everything like that. 362 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,079 Speaker 3: He then, you know, as. 363 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,039 Speaker 5: And I was on his task force then, and it 364 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:26,799 was normal. 365 00:20:27,319 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: The normal response was exactly yeah, you know that he 366 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,599 he loosened a lot of those restrictions later on, of course. 367 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,960 And then but you know, when the vaccine came, I 368 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,119 remember him, you know, giving a press conference receiving the vaccine, 369 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,279 you know, on on television cameras, everything like that. But 370 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,240 of course, this backlash that you just described continues to 371 00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:52,160 grow and emerge and everything like that. Fast forward to 372 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:57,640 this measles pandemic andreak sorry excuse me, measles outbreak. 373 00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: I call it an epidemic diaesels epidemic outbreak. 374 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and you know, Eleanor you have written about 375 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,599 this just even just the public response to this has 376 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,839 been very different, right, and it's been largely silenced. 377 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think our government officials have been 378 00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:17,240 pretty publicly quiet about this, like we should say, like 379 00:21:17,279 --> 00:21:20,599 the state has mobilized. They've sent you know, the Department 380 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,279 of State Health Services have sent folks out to West 381 00:21:24,319 --> 00:21:27,079 Texas to help. They've launched vaccine clinics. They are doing 382 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,400 a lot on the ground. But you know, Governor Abbott 383 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,960 has not really addressed this publicly at all. He has 384 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,920 tweeted out his statement at a certain point, but saying 385 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,640 that the state is responding. But you know, the leaders 386 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,920 from that area, elected leaders from West Texas have not 387 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,400 said anything about this. You know, these are people who 388 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,400 are very active on social media. Right there, They're talking 389 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,599 about a lot if what we have heard from certain 390 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,039 lawmakers is the opposite, right, I mean Representive Nate Shatt's 391 00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:56,319 line from Fort Worth, which has not yet been hit 392 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,680 by measles, but he was on Twitter this week bragging 393 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,960 about how his child's children's school district is the has 394 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,119 the lowest MMR vaccine rate in the state, and was 395 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:08,720 you know, really bragging about that and saying, you know, 396 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:11,920 thank you for being patriots, thank you for honoring medical 397 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,920 freedom of moms and dads and not you know. 398 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I don't know where this comes from. 399 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:17,559 But well, I mean I don't know where it comes from. 400 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 4: It started ten years ago. 401 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:22,039 Speaker 5: Amplify with COVID, and now it's spilling back over to 402 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:27,680 childhood immunization. So the Gallipol did a survey in August 403 00:22:27,759 --> 00:22:31,640 last year, August twenty twenty four, and you're now seeing 404 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,319 the same partisan divide among parents in terms of making 405 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,400 vaccine decisions. So the question they ask is do you 406 00:22:39,519 --> 00:22:44,839 think the vaccine is more dangerous for childhood vaccines? The 407 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,279 childhod vaccine is more dangerous than the diseases designed to prevent. 408 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,279 And there's that clear partisan divide. 409 00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:53,799 Speaker 4: And and you're right. 410 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 5: The Texas Health Department has been great. I mean, both 411 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,799 the state Health Department and the County Health Department. They've 412 00:22:58,839 --> 00:23:02,240 been good all you know, no criticisms at all. They've 413 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,720 been setting up vaccination clinics there. God, it's it's you 414 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,240 have no idea how hard it is to combat a 415 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:10,079 measles epidemic because it is so highly contagious. I don't 416 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,960 even know how you do contact tracing. So they're they're 417 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,880 doing a terrific job. But how do you now start 418 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,640 walking this back? How do you say? And this is 419 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,160 my biggest struggle. Everyone's in your entitled your political views. 420 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,880 I don't care about your political views, you know, but 421 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,359 don't adopt this one because it's so dangerous to you, 422 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,880 the health of your family, to you. And and and 423 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,440 this concept of medical freedom health freedom, it's it's it's 424 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,880 really pernicious. And I do think you see it not 425 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,960 playing out with what RFK Junior is saying in. 426 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 2: Public, right. And I do think, like you know, so 427 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,799 many people got brought into this medical freedom movement into 428 00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:52,000 all of this not I mean, yes, in part because 429 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,920 of the COVID vaccine, but also because of real and 430 00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:58,200 perceived vaccine mandates, right, the idea that I am being 431 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,720 required after months of you know, anger growing about COVID lockdowns, 432 00:24:02,759 --> 00:24:05,920 COVID restrictions, you know, all these things, then it was like, 433 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,319 here's another thing you have to do to go back 434 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,279 to your job as a healthcare worker or a pilot 435 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,839 or And I think that brought a lot of people 436 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,519 into this movement that maybe otherwise would not have been 437 00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:20,680 you know, they didn't care before they would just get 438 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,640 their kids the vaccine because they you know, vaccines, because 439 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,519 they were told to. So I do think that was 440 00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:26,359 like a pivot moment in a lot of ways that 441 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,519 you know, and it's hard to know, like it's hard 442 00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:32,160 to say in hindsight, you know what could have been 443 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,160 done differently, But I do think that is what galvanized 444 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:34,720 a lot of people. 445 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I would say, like when we talk about 446 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:39,920 Governor Abbot, right, I think, correct me if I'm if 447 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,200 any of you think I'm wrong here that there is 448 00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:44,559 a slight difference between what Abbot has said. He has 449 00:24:44,599 --> 00:24:47,599 maybe been more skeptical of vaccine mandates, but has not 450 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,400 been out there saying like don't get the vaccine or anything. 451 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,279 Speaker 3: No, Right, I do wonder. 452 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,039 Speaker 5: I've spoken to the governor about vaccines. Here's no problem. 453 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, he got the COVID shot, right. He did also 454 00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:02,319 sue the federal four times over vaccine mandates, right, Like 455 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:03,079 that's the gap. 456 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 3: I think. 457 00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: I do wonder though, Like I mean, one of the 458 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,920 thing about the COVID vaccine was, of course COVID we 459 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:14,160 knew disproportionately affected older people. The risk when a younger person, 460 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,200 particularly a child, got it, the risk of transmission appeared 461 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,319 to be lower. The risk of kind of serious illness 462 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,960 was lower when a kid got COVID measles. Seems to 463 00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:27,480 sort of be the opposite, right, and it is very 464 00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:31,880 dangerous for these young children. Is there any indication that 465 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:39,079 this incident, this case is inspiring people to rethink their 466 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,799 aversion to vaccines, or are people getting their children vaccinated 467 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,079 when they might have otherwise. Not, because this is such 468 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,039 a particularly scary thing for children. 469 00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:51,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, you'd like it. 470 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,319 Speaker 5: But you know, if you look at a map of 471 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,359 COVID vaccination rates in Texas, and you can get this 472 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,000 from the New York Times, it looks just like a 473 00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:05,119 geopolitical map of Texas. So what is the geopolitical map 474 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,079 of Texas? Looks like you got these big blue blobs 475 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,440 in the shape of a triangle right the cities, and 476 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,160 then you've got South Texas mostly in blue, and then 477 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,799 there's a sea of red on top of that. And 478 00:26:16,839 --> 00:26:19,519 that's what the COVID vaccination rate looks. It's I mean, 479 00:26:19,519 --> 00:26:22,440 it's almost a mirror image of really low vaccination rates 480 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,359 in West Texas, the Panhandle, East Texas, the rural counties, 481 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:32,319 everywhere except for South Texas and the cities. And it's 482 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,799 not a coincidence that measles is accelerating now in West Texas. 483 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,720 That's you know, if you were to predict where that 484 00:26:38,839 --> 00:26:40,839 was going to happen, this is where it would either 485 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,200 be in East Texas or West Texas in the Panhandle, 486 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,519 and it began it in the Mennoni community. But I 487 00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:50,920 think it's now continuing to accelerate. And this is like 488 00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:55,359 a hurricane over warm water. I mean, as long as 489 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,480 the hurricanes over warm Caribbean water, it'll continue to accelerate. 490 00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:02,400 And here the warm water in the unvaccinated rates, which 491 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,000 are substantial now in many parts of West Texas. So 492 00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:08,759 I don't so the only hope for bringing this to 493 00:27:08,799 --> 00:27:12,920 an end is to as the state and local health 494 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,240 departments are doing, setting up vaccination clinics, mobile clinics, and 495 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,839 encouraging people to get vaccinated. The only thing that stops 496 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,000 this is of enough parents agreed to vaccinate their kids. 497 00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:25,839 Speaker 2: And I think anecdotally there are stories from West Texas that, 498 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,839 you know, I think Lubbick last time we talked to them, 499 00:27:27,839 --> 00:27:30,319 had seen you know, a couple hundred families come out 500 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,079 to get vaccinated. I think a lot of families who 501 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,160 maybe weren't as ardently bought into this idea. They just 502 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,440 sort of hesitated when their kids were young to get 503 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,839 the shot, and now are like, hang on, like, you know, okay, 504 00:27:40,839 --> 00:27:43,440 there is a real measles threat out there, detrue. 505 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,759 Speaker 1: Does I wonder just like if you could put this 506 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:49,079 threat into context for us, like you know we talked earlier. 507 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,079 I have two kids, both of whom are vaccinated. Both 508 00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:54,720 of them go to public schools. We're about to go 509 00:27:54,839 --> 00:27:57,200 to a busy airport and fly to you know, and 510 00:27:57,319 --> 00:27:59,039 hang out with a bunch of other kids. 511 00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 3: And make my lego and make your lego. Yes exactly. 512 00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: I mean how much do I, you know, using me 513 00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:07,599 just as an example for you know, millions of other 514 00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:11,240 families in Texas right now? How much do I need 515 00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:15,039 to be concerned about the immediate or even mid term 516 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,920 health and safety of my children with this going on 517 00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:19,480 right now? 518 00:28:20,519 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 3: Well? How old are your kids? So I have a 519 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,480 third grader and a sixth grader. Yeah, so you're fine. 520 00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 5: I mean because after the late nineteen eighties, kids got 521 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,240 two doses of vaccines. So your first dose, which you 522 00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:35,119 typically give at one year of age, is around ninety 523 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,920 percent protection protective. Your second dose is gives you up 524 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,680 to ninety seven percent protection. That's about as good as 525 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,200 it can get, and even if there is some breakthrough measles, 526 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:52,720 it'll be greatly mitigated. The most problematic one right now 527 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,960 is if you have an infant child and you're that 528 00:28:57,079 --> 00:28:59,759 infant's not yet old enough to be get their first 529 00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:03,359 Meetzel's dose. So if you have particularly between six and 530 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,720 eleven months of age, because prior to that, you know, 531 00:29:06,839 --> 00:29:10,160 four months, three months, the infant will still have maternal 532 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,960 antibodies on board because if mom was vaccinated, But then 533 00:29:14,279 --> 00:29:17,759 there's that window period of vulnerability evening six and eleven 534 00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:23,640 months where maternal antibody is waning and you don't give 535 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,480 the first dose yet. We don't give the first dose 536 00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:28,519 earlier because the maternal antibody will interfere with the vaccine. 537 00:29:29,319 --> 00:29:32,880 So that's what I worry about an hour the parents 538 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,480 with infants six to eleven months, and then what do 539 00:29:35,519 --> 00:29:39,640 you do? Well, if you're in a measl's endemic area 540 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,400 right now, if you're in West Texas, the state Health 541 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:48,839 Department has issued an alert to encourage parents and pediatricians 542 00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:52,880 to vaccinate earlier, starting between six and eleven months, depending 543 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,960 on how old they are, and then you wind up 544 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,680 getting three doses of the vaccine instead of two doses 545 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,799 of the vaccine. See, you vaccinate now you don't know 546 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:03,000 how well the vaccine takes because there might be still 547 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:05,799 maternal antibodies on board, and then vaccine again at twelve 548 00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:08,559 to fifteen months, and then four to six years of age. 549 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: So we've talked a lot about the vaccine hesitancy, the 550 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,720 politics about this, but there's also just the general public 551 00:30:15,799 --> 00:30:19,519 health apparatus. There was a lot of talk, you know, 552 00:30:19,559 --> 00:30:23,559 when the COVID vaccine hit about hit sorry, yeah, well, 553 00:30:23,599 --> 00:30:25,920 well when COVID and the vaccine came about about the 554 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,480 the underfunding of public health departments, you know at the 555 00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:32,759 state and local and maybe even federal level, about you know, 556 00:30:32,839 --> 00:30:36,000 the exhaustion of these folks having to work with this 557 00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:40,480 for years. How do you feel like that apparatus, that 558 00:30:40,519 --> 00:30:44,000 government system, maybe below the politician level, is holding up. 559 00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:47,200 And what are we learning about that system from from 560 00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:49,680 what's happening with measles in West Texas right now? 561 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 5: Well, I know a lot of people who work in 562 00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:55,000 state and local health departments, you know, feel a bit 563 00:30:55,039 --> 00:31:00,119 demoralized because they feel like they can't have open discussions 564 00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:05,039 like we're having here and uh and and they feel 565 00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:08,640 a little bit under siege. There's an added problem that 566 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,160 I only learned about recently. So I do a weekly 567 00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:14,519 phone zoom call with some amazing colleague. I mean, I'm 568 00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:19,160 more of a laboratory science guy and making vaccines and 569 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,319 infectio disease in the laboratory. But I do this weekly 570 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,680 call with Mike Osterholme, who's who's an amazing epidemiologist the 571 00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:32,319 University of Minnesota, together with Margaret Hamburg, former FDA commissioner, 572 00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:36,759 and Penny Heaton and Eric Topel and Ruth Berkeleman from 573 00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:39,240 CDC and others. And one of the things that I learned, 574 00:31:39,279 --> 00:31:43,119 I didn't realize this that most state health departments get 575 00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:47,559 the lions share their budget from the CDC, and I 576 00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:50,519 didn't It wasn't aware of that, and now that's being 577 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,240 cut dramatically in many states. I don't know what's happening 578 00:31:54,279 --> 00:31:57,960 in Texas, So that could be another big problem that 579 00:31:58,039 --> 00:32:00,920 we're that we may be facing as well. So it's 580 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,359 just getting tougher and tougher to implement public health measures. 581 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,599 You know, my experience with the state Health Department. It's outstanding. 582 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,839 My experience with you know, here in Houston, we have 583 00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:13,759 two public health departments because we have to have two 584 00:32:13,799 --> 00:32:16,279 of everything, right, we have county and city, So the 585 00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:21,240 county and city health departments are top, top notch. I 586 00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:24,559 often wonder why they stay with it, you know, given 587 00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:27,799 the you know that the low pay and the stress 588 00:32:27,839 --> 00:32:29,880 and everything else. But they're amazing people. 589 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 4: So we actually are. 590 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 5: The two The heroes in Texas are the public health 591 00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:39,200 experts and the journalists and people like you. 592 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:39,599 Speaker 4: Or I think. 593 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,599 Speaker 5: I tell because I come from the Northeast and I 594 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,599 and I tell people that the smartest, most committed journalists 595 00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:50,400 and reporters I've ever met her from the state of 596 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,279 Texas and part because you. 597 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 4: Have to be right. 598 00:32:56,559 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 5: I mean it, and it goes across. It's not just 599 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:02,160 the text tribute is wonderful, but it's also true of 600 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,920 reporters from every paper I've met, you know, San Antonio, 601 00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:09,400 Dallas Morning News, in Houston Chronicle, I mean, Austin Standing 602 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,160 an incredible group of people. That's why I'm willing to 603 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,960 spend time with you guys, because I'm so impressed with 604 00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:16,559 what you do. 605 00:33:17,359 --> 00:33:18,039 Speaker 4: I appreciate that. 606 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: I want to ask you just briefly too. I you know, 607 00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:23,480 I follow you on Twitter. You mentioned kind of being 608 00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:28,559 the target of a lot of these vaccine skeptics, you know, 609 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,519 from from even the days before the COVID pandemic. It 610 00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:35,839 seems like due to technological issues, political issues, and maybe 611 00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:40,680 cultural issues with with our country right now that that 612 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:46,960 abuse has it, it's alarming, right. I mean, I see 613 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,519 some of the of what you're subjected to for saying 614 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,960 these things publicly. I mean, tell me just about like 615 00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:57,440 what this has been like for you as someone who 616 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,160 advocates for these things and believes that these things are 617 00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:02,160 our messages that the public needs to know. 618 00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I'm the for for my adversaries, I'm 619 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,280 the trifecta. I'm a scientist. I'm a vaccine scientist and 620 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,960 a Jewish vaccine scientist. So I check all the boxes 621 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:17,039 for attack, and and uh, it's it is gotten to 622 00:34:17,079 --> 00:34:20,960 be a very scary place. And you know, part of 623 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,880 it is because I've spoken about the anti vaccine movement 624 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,480 in such direct terms. I don't use euphemisms. I I 625 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,199 I write the same way I'm speaking to you, and 626 00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,039 and I try as hard as I can't to thread 627 00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:40,400 the needle to say, look, don't think of me as 628 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,199 a political political figure. I don't care about politics. You know, 629 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,679 I that that's not what I'm interested in. I just 630 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,519 want you to uncouple the stuff that's going to put 631 00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:54,199 your family and harms away. Does a matter how much 632 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,480 I swear up and down about that, I still get 633 00:34:56,519 --> 00:34:59,400 attacked And and one of it's interesting. One of the 634 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,840 things major the ways they attacked me is they claim I'm, 635 00:35:03,039 --> 00:35:05,320 you know, in bed with the big pharma companies and 636 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,920 I'm taking millions of dollars from pharma companies, in which 637 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,199 my wife n says, if only but and and and 638 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,119 the answers I don't. That's the opposite we've made, you know, 639 00:35:16,199 --> 00:35:19,280 we might have devoted my life to making being a 640 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,360 pediatrician scientist that makes low cost vaccines for the world, 641 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:23,960 proving we could bypass the. 642 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,599 Speaker 4: Big pharma companies. And we did it. 643 00:35:25,639 --> 00:35:28,079 Speaker 5: And I did it because I'm in Texas and the 644 00:35:28,159 --> 00:35:31,280 resources being part of this amazing Texas Medical Center at 645 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,800 Balor College of Medicine, Texas Children's Hospital. Our COVID vaccine 646 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,719 proved we could bypass big pharma companies. We administered we 647 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,960 you know, made a low cost for combatant protein COVID 648 00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:44,360 vaccine that reached one hundred million people in India and 649 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,639 Indonesia bypassing pharmac But you know, the assertion stills out 650 00:35:49,679 --> 00:35:52,880 there on Elon musk X that I'm a shill for 651 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,920 the pharma companies no matter how, it just wear up 652 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,480 and down, and then it takes on other dark turns. 653 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:05,559 It claims I'm secretly making the COVID virus. And you know, 654 00:36:05,599 --> 00:36:08,119 Alex Jones goes after me, says, I'm part of the 655 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:09,199 what do they. 656 00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:10,039 Speaker 4: Call it plandemic? 657 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 5: They don't call it pandemic, to call it plandemic. 658 00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 4: That it's all, you know, designed to disrupt society. 659 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 5: And and of course I'm doing this because I'm Jewish. 660 00:36:19,039 --> 00:36:21,719 I'm doing it with George Soros and one of the Rothschilds, 661 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,239 and they've got me and and apparently the laboratories at 662 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,719 Davos at the World Economic Forum, but I tell them, look, 663 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,000 the labs are better in Texas. And you know, but 664 00:36:32,679 --> 00:36:35,840 and and the crazier the conspiracy, the more the more 665 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:36,840 pileon there is. 666 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 4: That's it. 667 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:41,639 Speaker 5: And that's and that's something very dark also, that that's 668 00:36:41,679 --> 00:36:45,800 something I never thought I'd see as a as a 669 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:48,880 you know, I went into this because I thought it 670 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,639 was the most noble thing you can do with science 671 00:36:51,679 --> 00:36:53,480 and the pursuit of humanitarian goals. 672 00:36:53,519 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 4: Making low cost vaccines. 673 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 5: For the world. Never occurred to me I'd be treated 674 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,360 as a public enemy or a cartoon villain, and and 675 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:01,679 that that's very tough. 676 00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 677 00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: I'm involved in my new position as editor in chief 678 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,239 in the planning for the Texas Tribune Festival, and we 679 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,199 were just having a conversation. I realized about a week ago. 680 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,960 We were talking about security issues and one time you 681 00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:18,679 doctor spoke at the Tribune Festival and there was a 682 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:23,760 report of someone kind of outside the panel looking to 683 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,079 kind of stir up controversy and in anger about it. 684 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,079 And that man is now our Secretary of Health and 685 00:37:32,159 --> 00:37:34,760 Human Services are fk Junior. He had he had appeared 686 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,039 kind of uninvited at the festival, and so. 687 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 5: That was that was, you know, like one of those 688 00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:42,400 dreams you have when you drink too much red wine 689 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,519 the night before, you know, at dinner and correct and now, 690 00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:48,440 and I had I had this dream that Robert F. 691 00:37:48,559 --> 00:37:53,079 Kennedy Junior came to my cat discussion and the doctor 692 00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:56,519 told you that to drink so much of red wine, 693 00:37:57,159 --> 00:37:59,400 but but there was actually happened. 694 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's really strange. 695 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 5: By the way, we have a notebook coming out in 696 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,039 the fall in September and hope maybe. 697 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,639 Speaker 4: You'll invite me back. 698 00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:11,679 Speaker 5: I'm doing this with Michael Mann, the climate scientists who 699 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,239 gets beat up like I get beat up on the 700 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,760 climate science side, and we're comparing notes and the book 701 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,480 is called Science under Siege, and we look at the 702 00:38:20,599 --> 00:38:24,000 overlap between the attacks on climate science and biomedical science, 703 00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:27,440 and there's a surprising amount of commonality, which is quite interesting. 704 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 3: We will prepare our invitation. 705 00:38:29,559 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: That's on the day, fifteenth eleanor speaking of upcoming works, 706 00:38:36,519 --> 00:38:38,559 will be running kind of a series of stories on 707 00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:42,559 the fifth anniversary. Those will be launching, hopefully the day 708 00:38:42,639 --> 00:38:45,719 this is appearing in your podcast feeds on Tuesday till 709 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:47,639 it's just quickly what to look for in that coverage. 710 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, we realized so much has 711 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,239 changed in Texas in the last five years, and we 712 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,400 thought this was a good opportunity to look back, not 713 00:38:55,519 --> 00:38:58,119 just on what happened during COVID, but lessons we've learned 714 00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:00,440 and the whole Health Team has contributed to this. So 715 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,920 our first story is coming out today and looks at 716 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,559 you know, how prepared Texas is for the next pandemic 717 00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:12,679 spoiler alert, not as prepared as we might hope in 718 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,679 certain ways. And we are also going to in the 719 00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:18,639 future look have stories looking at the death count, you know, 720 00:39:18,679 --> 00:39:21,360 really what the human toll of this all, was, looking 721 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,000 at ARPA funding where that all went, and yeah, just 722 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:26,559 an opportunity and really you know what the impact has 723 00:39:26,559 --> 00:39:28,920 been on Texas politics, So an opportunity to sort of 724 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:32,599 take stock of five crazy years. 725 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,559 Speaker 5: Absolutely, Okay, I mean the story, the story that I 726 00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:38,280 would really want to see get out more is the 727 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,559 story of this extraordinary Texas Medical center where I work 728 00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:44,840 at Bala College of Medicine, Texas Children's Hospital. You know, 729 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,599 you know, when I was going on the cable news channels, 730 00:39:47,639 --> 00:39:49,760 going on c in A, MSNBC, I was even going 731 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,559 on Fox News for a while, un though I didn't 732 00:39:51,559 --> 00:39:54,480 go get I wouldn't go along with the hydroxy chloric 733 00:39:54,519 --> 00:39:57,679 when nonsense, and then the invitation stopped there. But but 734 00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,639 you know, one of the frustrations that I always had 735 00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:02,480 going on the cable news channels is you know, the 736 00:40:02,519 --> 00:40:06,559 way in the Northeast. They want to portray us here 737 00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:09,800 in Texas, and all they want to do is talk 738 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,320 about the wackadoodle, and I would try to explain, No, 739 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,559 wait a minute, I came to Texas to up my 740 00:40:15,679 --> 00:40:18,719 game for science and medicine. I mean, I can do 741 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,679 things in our Texas Medical Center in terms of life 742 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,800 saving interventions that I couldn't do anywhere else. It's been 743 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,800 the most productive time of my scientific career. But that 744 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,280 story doesn't get out enough. 745 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 4: And and and. 746 00:40:31,559 --> 00:40:35,119 Speaker 5: That's and I don't know how how we do that, 747 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,840 but you know, we were. We tend to be very 748 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,760 inward looking in terms of our public outreach. But there's 749 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,840 something also very special going on here. I mean I 750 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,039 didn't really come because of the climate. I mean, well 751 00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:49,199 I did, I guess because I work on tropical diseases. 752 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:55,679 But the in terms of solving big problems in the world, 753 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,920 you can do more in Texas, I think, than anywhere else. 754 00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,760 Speaker 4: And that's why that's why I stay. That's why I'm 755 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:00,679 here interesting. 756 00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:03,119 Speaker 1: Thank you for that, Thank you for joining us on 757 00:41:03,119 --> 00:41:05,639 the show. Thank you Eleanor looking forward to reading those 758 00:41:05,639 --> 00:41:08,039 stories as well. And a big thank you to Robin Chris, 759 00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:11,360 our producers. That is it for the podcast. We will 760 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:12,679 be back next week.