WEBVTT

1
00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:12.320
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to episode one of The Oath in the Office,

2
00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.839
<v Speaker 1>a brand new podcast about the Constitution, what it was,

3
00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:19.480
<v Speaker 1>what it might still be, what it could still become.

4
00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:21.679
<v Speaker 1>I am John Fugelsang, and I am so pleased to

5
00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:24.320
<v Speaker 1>welcome the star of our show, the man who wrote

6
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:27.280
<v Speaker 1>the book The Oath in the Office, Professor Corey Bretschneider.

7
00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.719
<v Speaker 2>Hello, Corey, Hi, John, Thanks so much for doing this.

8
00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:34.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm so excited to be talking to you about this

9
00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:38.479
<v Speaker 2>topic and such an important moment. And maybe I should

10
00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:40.960
<v Speaker 2>just say that, in the first few seconds in office,

11
00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:44.560
<v Speaker 2>the president takes an oath to preserve, protect, and defend

12
00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:47.320
<v Speaker 2>the Constitution. But what we're facing at this moment, and

13
00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.439
<v Speaker 2>the reason why we're talking, is that we are facing

14
00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:53.320
<v Speaker 2>a president who's doing anything but that, who's really threatening

15
00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:56.520
<v Speaker 2>to collapse the system. So that's the urgency that's really

16
00:00:56.600 --> 00:00:59.479
<v Speaker 2>led us together to start this podcast.

17
00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:02.399
<v Speaker 1>And that's why I was so intrigued to do this

18
00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:06.519
<v Speaker 1>with you, Professor, because you've done my show on SiriusXM

19
00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:09.959
<v Speaker 1>for years, and I've learned so much about the Constitution.

20
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:13.280
<v Speaker 1>I've actually been able to talk my way into a

21
00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:15.840
<v Speaker 1>couple of law schools fraudulently based on how much I've

22
00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:18.159
<v Speaker 1>learned from you, and I have to say, there's a

23
00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:21.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of podcasts out there about the very, very curious

24
00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:25.280
<v Speaker 1>predicament we're in. This is not a podcast where we're

25
00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.000
<v Speaker 1>necessarily going to be talking about all the Trump supporters

26
00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:31.280
<v Speaker 1>losing two billion dollars because they invested in his mean coin,

27
00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:34.159
<v Speaker 1>although it's kind of hilarious. This is not a show

28
00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:37.480
<v Speaker 1>about Secretary Jaegermeister telling Russia go ahead and keep Ukraine.

29
00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:41.000
<v Speaker 1>And we're not really doing a show about apartheid nefo

30
00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:44.159
<v Speaker 1>Baby's abusing ketamine, although they might come up. This is

31
00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:46.680
<v Speaker 1>a show about the Constitution. This is a show about

32
00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:49.519
<v Speaker 1>the oath a president takes. This is a show about

33
00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:52.799
<v Speaker 1>the very real jeopardy we all find ourselves in. I'm

34
00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:54.719
<v Speaker 1>guessing that's why you wanted to do this, Professor.

35
00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:58.439
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, this is a show prompted by how dire the

36
00:01:58.519 --> 00:02:00.439
<v Speaker 2>moment is. And part of what I want us to

37
00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:02.439
<v Speaker 2>do and what we plan to do, is to talk

38
00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:05.159
<v Speaker 2>about the fact that it's not just some particular law

39
00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:08.319
<v Speaker 2>or some misbehavior that's going on, but that there is

40
00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:11.000
<v Speaker 2>a threat to the system as a whole, and that

41
00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:14.280
<v Speaker 2>comes not just from some of the malicious intent of Trump,

42
00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:17.199
<v Speaker 2>although I think that's part of it, or his crony

43
00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:21.039
<v Speaker 2>Elon Mosk, who seems to know nothing about American democracy.

44
00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:24.000
<v Speaker 2>We'll talk about that too. It comes from how powerful

45
00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:27.159
<v Speaker 2>this office is. The commander in chief of the military

46
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.960
<v Speaker 2>control over an executive branch, and he wants total control

47
00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:33.039
<v Speaker 2>over it. We'll talk about that. Of more than two

48
00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:37.240
<v Speaker 2>million people, this is a powerful office, and at this moment,

49
00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:41.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's ever risk that this office is

50
00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:45.000
<v Speaker 2>so dangerous that it could destroy the entire American system.

51
00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:46.719
<v Speaker 2>And yet, at the same time, to go to the

52
00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:49.719
<v Speaker 2>point of the podcast, I don't want people to lose hope.

53
00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:51.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that we should lose hope. I think

54
00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:55.039
<v Speaker 2>that we've seen these crises before, and as dire as

55
00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:56.680
<v Speaker 2>this one is, we're going to get through it.

56
00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.639
<v Speaker 1>I completely agree. Every night on Serious XM, my callers

57
00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:02.240
<v Speaker 1>who weigh in, and a lot of the journalists I

58
00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:04.719
<v Speaker 1>talk to, we read all of these op eds every day,

59
00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:08.599
<v Speaker 1>people discussing are are we headed for a constitutional crisis?

60
00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:14.199
<v Speaker 1>At what point does this Michigas officially become a constitutional crisis?

61
00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Based on what I know, it seems like the constitutional

62
00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:22.599
<v Speaker 1>crisis is already in progress. We are in it right now,

63
00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:25.719
<v Speaker 1>whether people know about it, acknowledge it, or care.

64
00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:29.919
<v Speaker 2>Do you agree? Definitely. I don't think that this is

65
00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:31.800
<v Speaker 2>a question of whether we're going to enter one or

66
00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:33.800
<v Speaker 2>it's going to get worse before we're there. We are

67
00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:36.080
<v Speaker 2>here right now. And again that's the reason I think

68
00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:38.400
<v Speaker 2>why we're talking to each other, that's the reason for

69
00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.319
<v Speaker 2>a new podcast, because when you have a president who

70
00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:46.800
<v Speaker 2>is not just creating executive orders that violate the Constitution.

71
00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:49.840
<v Speaker 2>We'll talk about some of those, birthright citizenship for instance,

72
00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:54.879
<v Speaker 2>the firing of the NLRB board member, but really doing

73
00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:58.240
<v Speaker 2>it with an aim of consolidating total power within the

74
00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:01.159
<v Speaker 2>executive branch. That's what's going on, and trying to use

75
00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:04.080
<v Speaker 2>his appointments on the Supreme Court, three of them, to

76
00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:07.719
<v Speaker 2>ratify that consolidation of total power, and to make use

77
00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:10.479
<v Speaker 2>of what might have been more benign ideas like the

78
00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.560
<v Speaker 2>unitary executive, to really move us towards a dictatorship, an

79
00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:18.319
<v Speaker 2>elected dictatorship. That's what's happening right now. That's why it's

80
00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:21.199
<v Speaker 2>not just a constitutional crisis. But I've been using the

81
00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.079
<v Speaker 2>word coup. I think it's that serious. Coups sometimes happen

82
00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:28.360
<v Speaker 2>through violent activity, through takeover, but they also can happen

83
00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.160
<v Speaker 2>and have happened often in Latin America, through the president

84
00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:36.920
<v Speaker 2>consolidating legal powers, usurping the courts, usurping the Congress into

85
00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:42.079
<v Speaker 2>his own in this case, Trump's own power, and the

86
00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:45.600
<v Speaker 2>threats to violate court orders just get to that as well.

87
00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.160
<v Speaker 1>Is that a tough sell for you, Professor r I've

88
00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:49.720
<v Speaker 1>talked about it with people who say, well, how can

89
00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:51.639
<v Speaker 1>it be a coup? They've already got the power, They've

90
00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:53.439
<v Speaker 1>got the White House, House and Senate. The power is

91
00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:56.680
<v Speaker 1>already there. And you know, I'm not smart enough to

92
00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:59.079
<v Speaker 1>explain it doesn't matter that they've already got the power.

93
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:02.279
<v Speaker 1>This is a coup not of the office, but of

94
00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:06.480
<v Speaker 1>the entire structure of our government. This is South Africa

95
00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:11.360
<v Speaker 1>and apartheid, Nepo baby taking over what the founding fathers want.

96
00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:13.839
<v Speaker 1>And as you've pointed out many times, Cory, the founders

97
00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:16.920
<v Speaker 1>left very specific instructions. They wrote it all down more

98
00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:17.360
<v Speaker 1>than once.

99
00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:20.079
<v Speaker 2>That's right. I mean, I think we have to look.

100
00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:23.120
<v Speaker 2>America has been a model for democracies around the world,

101
00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:27.160
<v Speaker 2>and where we've seen them fail, oftentimes in Latin American countries.

102
00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:32.240
<v Speaker 2>What's happened is that from within the executive branch, the presidency,

103
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:35.879
<v Speaker 2>the other branches are essentially destroyed. And political scientists called

104
00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.160
<v Speaker 2>these self coups or autocups. And that's I think what's

105
00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:43.160
<v Speaker 2>happening right now, that he is consolidating power. The power

106
00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.959
<v Speaker 2>of the purse, the power to make laws lies with Congress,

107
00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:49.399
<v Speaker 2>and yet he is stealing that purse, stealing that power

108
00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:53.639
<v Speaker 2>to make laws. With the help of Elon Musk, the

109
00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:55.959
<v Speaker 2>power of the purse turns out to be located in

110
00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.120
<v Speaker 2>an office in the Treasury department. Elon Musk figured out

111
00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:02.199
<v Speaker 2>where that was and has gone in there and stolen it,

112
00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:05.399
<v Speaker 2>even though the constitution doesn't give them that power. And

113
00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:08.879
<v Speaker 2>the courts, the fundamental idea of American democracy is nobody's

114
00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:12.040
<v Speaker 2>above the law, no person, not even a president, and

115
00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.920
<v Speaker 2>the courts are supposed to be the ones to uphold it.

116
00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:18.160
<v Speaker 2>So when you have this president and his cronies JD.

117
00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Vance in particular, are threatening to disobey court orders, they're

118
00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:25.600
<v Speaker 2>essentially announcing the coup. They're telling us in real time.

119
00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:28.920
<v Speaker 2>American democracy isn't that we elect a president and then

120
00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:31.439
<v Speaker 2>that person can do whatever he or she wants. We

121
00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:33.399
<v Speaker 2>have laws on the books, the Clean Air Act, the

122
00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Clean Water Act, and the president is not above the law,

123
00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.199
<v Speaker 2>supposed to follow them, and we've really abandoned that.

124
00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:42.439
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you'd think Trump would know. He already got

125
00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:47.000
<v Speaker 1>impeached once for trying to tamper with funding Congress had

126
00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:47.759
<v Speaker 1>already approved.

127
00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:48.480
<v Speaker 2>That's what his.

128
00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.720
<v Speaker 1>Impeachment for the Ukrainian phone call was all about. Congress

129
00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:54.639
<v Speaker 1>had approved the funding. He tried to hold it back.

130
00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.759
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to think he'd learn his lesson, but again,

131
00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.319
<v Speaker 1>you know, if he believed in learning lessons, wouldn't paid

132
00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:02.360
<v Speaker 1>all those kids to take his test for him at

133
00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.879
<v Speaker 1>Wharton's School of Business. Now I'm looking at the headlines,

134
00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:09.639
<v Speaker 1>and there's reason to feel optimistic. We see, as was

135
00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:12.519
<v Speaker 1>so often the case in the first term, the judicial

136
00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:15.399
<v Speaker 1>branch is there. It's protecting the guardrails. In the past

137
00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:19.000
<v Speaker 1>couple of weeks, we've seen he can't freeze federal grants.

138
00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:21.560
<v Speaker 1>He can't slash money for health research. They made him

139
00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.079
<v Speaker 1>put back up the public health information. They took off

140
00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:27.160
<v Speaker 1>the government websites. They can't just wipe out the US

141
00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Agency for International Development. But it seems like the real

142
00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:35.759
<v Speaker 1>test is not how well these judges are fighting back.

143
00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:38.839
<v Speaker 1>The real test is if they decide to just not

144
00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.720
<v Speaker 1>even listen to these courts and to move ahead with

145
00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:45.360
<v Speaker 1>policies that have already been deemed illegal because who's going

146
00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:47.680
<v Speaker 1>to stop them? And that seems to be the curious

147
00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:48.720
<v Speaker 1>area we're occupying.

148
00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:51.879
<v Speaker 2>Now, that's the frightening moment. And it's right to say

149
00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:54.480
<v Speaker 2>that lower courts are doing their job. Many of these

150
00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:56.399
<v Speaker 2>decisions are going to wind up in the hands of

151
00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:58.319
<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Court, and we're going to talk about that.

152
00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:00.959
<v Speaker 2>But what happens when the lower courts do their job

153
00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:03.959
<v Speaker 2>or the Supreme Court does their job and the executive

154
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:10.480
<v Speaker 2>just doesn't listen. That really is unprecedented. Andrew Jackson supposedly

155
00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:13.079
<v Speaker 2>said Justice Marshall has made his decision, now let him

156
00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.879
<v Speaker 2>enforce it. He never said Thats versus Georgia isn't even

157
00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:21.240
<v Speaker 2>a case about Andrew Jackson. So we're in unprecedented territory.

158
00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:24.639
<v Speaker 2>The time that supposedly happened did not happen. And when

159
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.000
<v Speaker 2>you start to think through it, certainly the federal courts

160
00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:32.240
<v Speaker 2>have the ability to finding criminal contempt federal officials who

161
00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:35.559
<v Speaker 2>don't listen to them. But here's the problem. The president

162
00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.360
<v Speaker 2>has the pardon power, and many of these federal officials

163
00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:41.799
<v Speaker 2>who are going to be encouraged to disobey, or are

164
00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.360
<v Speaker 2>being encouraged to disobey or might be might count on

165
00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:48.200
<v Speaker 2>such a pardon. And of course Trump himself, although these

166
00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:51.720
<v Speaker 2>cases are not about the question of criminal immunity, he

167
00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:55.000
<v Speaker 2>has the incentive to bad behavior, to defy the courts

168
00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.639
<v Speaker 2>because he knows he himself will never be found guilty,

169
00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:02.240
<v Speaker 2>never even be indicted under the immunity case for any

170
00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:04.600
<v Speaker 2>criminal action, even if it comes to that.

171
00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:08.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so this is the crazy thing you mentioned Andrew Jackson.

172
00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:10.600
<v Speaker 1>I was going to ask you about that because I

173
00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:14.720
<v Speaker 1>was raised believing the legend that Andrew Jackson brazenly defied

174
00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:17.559
<v Speaker 1>the Supreme Court, and I've been walking around thinking, well,

175
00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Andrew Jackson did it. We managed to survive. No one cares,

176
00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:22.960
<v Speaker 1>but it doesn't make me feel any easier. And when

177
00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:26.320
<v Speaker 1>I look at what's happening here, it's kind of everything

178
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:29.559
<v Speaker 1>you've said, Professor. I mean, he began his administration telling

179
00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.360
<v Speaker 1>them not to enforce the TikTok ban that he fought

180
00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:36.320
<v Speaker 1>for a year ago, that's been passed by Congress, upheld

181
00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:38.960
<v Speaker 1>by the Supreme Court. So right away day one, he's

182
00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.799
<v Speaker 1>disobeying a ban because I hope he's gotten a better

183
00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:45.279
<v Speaker 1>bribe from China. The executive order to end the constitutional

184
00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:49.000
<v Speaker 1>right of birthright citizenship ignores Supreme Court precedents, And just

185
00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:51.759
<v Speaker 1>this week the judge in the federal grants case has

186
00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:55.399
<v Speaker 1>said that the administration still has not abided by the

187
00:09:55.399 --> 00:09:59.440
<v Speaker 1>court order to restart the federal grants. So I mean,

188
00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:04.120
<v Speaker 1>if he's fine court orders now and White House counsel

189
00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:07.399
<v Speaker 1>is sitting around letting him do it, do we still

190
00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:08.840
<v Speaker 1>have checks and balances anymore?

191
00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.799
<v Speaker 2>I think that's why I've been using the language of coup,

192
00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:14.679
<v Speaker 2>because all of this isn't that he's ignorant. When you

193
00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:16.480
<v Speaker 2>and I first met, I had written a piece called

194
00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:18.840
<v Speaker 2>Trump versus the Constitution, and it was about how he

195
00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:21.919
<v Speaker 2>really didn't understand even the most basic thing of the system.

196
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.879
<v Speaker 2>And my hope then and prediction was that the courts

197
00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:26.320
<v Speaker 2>were going to stop them, they were going to teach

198
00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.200
<v Speaker 2>him a constitutional lesson. But he really is hell band

199
00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.559
<v Speaker 2>on absolute power. And part of the point of these

200
00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:38.799
<v Speaker 2>massive turn of executive orders is to overwhelm the system,

201
00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:40.720
<v Speaker 2>flood the zone, as they've been saying, and what that

202
00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:44.840
<v Speaker 2>really means is to show his defiance of the Constitution.

203
00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Part of that might mean defiance of courts, but he

204
00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:51.159
<v Speaker 2>also is hoping and he might succeed in using the

205
00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:54.360
<v Speaker 2>courts to remake his own power, to get rid of

206
00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:57.679
<v Speaker 2>those checks and balances that we read about in seventh grade.

207
00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:00.080
<v Speaker 2>So he really is It's not that he doesn't know, oh,

208
00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:03.679
<v Speaker 2>that the birthright Citizenship Order is unconstitutional, it's that he

209
00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.639
<v Speaker 2>wants to challenge the courts to stop them, and he

210
00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:14.000
<v Speaker 2>is defying intentionally these basic textual guarantees protections of the Constitution.

211
00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:16.559
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's true too, of firing the head

212
00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:19.159
<v Speaker 2>of the NLRB. In all these cases, he's trying to

213
00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.919
<v Speaker 2>remake the Constitution, and he's hoping that the people that

214
00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:25.440
<v Speaker 2>he regards as his justices, these three members of the

215
00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:28.799
<v Speaker 2>court that he's nominated and that we're confirmed, are going

216
00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.000
<v Speaker 2>to back him up in his quest for consolidated power.

217
00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:35.159
<v Speaker 1>My god, it's just like you know, you're raised in

218
00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.799
<v Speaker 1>Civics class to understand that Congress controls the purse rings.

219
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.679
<v Speaker 1>And now Trump with Elon Musk and Elon's little in

220
00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:46.320
<v Speaker 1>cell clown posse of hackers have now decided no, they're

221
00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:47.679
<v Speaker 1>going to try to pull the money out of the

222
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:52.039
<v Speaker 1>Treasury and apparently dump it into a Donald Trump sovereign

223
00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:56.240
<v Speaker 1>slush fund where he can essentially be a king sitting

224
00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:58.279
<v Speaker 1>on a pile of gold and give it out as

225
00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:01.320
<v Speaker 1>he sees fifth and Congress just, I guess, shows up

226
00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:04.080
<v Speaker 1>to work and no longer controls the purse strings and

227
00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:08.320
<v Speaker 1>the Constitution, like the New Testament has been thrown out

228
00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.440
<v Speaker 1>by these people. I mean, it seems insane, Corey, But

229
00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.720
<v Speaker 1>you know al Gore tried to have a sovereign wealth fund.

230
00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:17.960
<v Speaker 1>He called it a lock box because they had taxed

231
00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.080
<v Speaker 1>their rich a little tiny bit and they had a

232
00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:22.799
<v Speaker 1>budget surplus with a balanced budget, and they wanted to

233
00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:27.039
<v Speaker 1>use that money to protect poor people and strengthen social security.

234
00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:29.440
<v Speaker 1>This is something very different. They are trying to take

235
00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.919
<v Speaker 1>the money away from Congress and let King man Baby

236
00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:36.000
<v Speaker 1>hand it out to whoever kisses his butt the most publicly.

237
00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:39.440
<v Speaker 2>That's right. I mean, what we learned in Civics class

238
00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.720
<v Speaker 2>is the right understanding of the Constitution that Congress makes

239
00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:46.600
<v Speaker 2>the law and Congress allocates funds, and this freeze is

240
00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:49.159
<v Speaker 2>really an attempt to reverse that, to put in the

241
00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:52.039
<v Speaker 2>hands of the executive branch, the ability to impound funds.

242
00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:56.279
<v Speaker 2>There's a statute, by the way, after Nixon, the Impoundment Act,

243
00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:59.679
<v Speaker 2>that stops the president from trying to simply unilaterally decide

244
00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:02.279
<v Speaker 2>what to spend or not. And let's think about how

245
00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.080
<v Speaker 2>important this is to the system. If it's not Congress,

246
00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.879
<v Speaker 2>but it's the president that can decide what to spend

247
00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.840
<v Speaker 2>or not, in Congress's power is essentially eliminated. And I

248
00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.320
<v Speaker 2>think that's the goal here. And that's true too of

249
00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:16.879
<v Speaker 2>the other cases that we're going to talk about.

250
00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, do go anywhere. We got to take a quick

251
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:20.639
<v Speaker 1>break to make some money to pay for our own

252
00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:23.000
<v Speaker 1>defense lawyers. We'll be right back. This is the Oath

253
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:34.120
<v Speaker 1>in the Office. Welcome back to the Oath in the Office.

254
00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.919
<v Speaker 1>I'm John fugel Sang Professor Corey. Let me ask you

255
00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:38.720
<v Speaker 1>about the birthright citizenship case. It was one of the

256
00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:41.279
<v Speaker 1>first things he did coming through. And you know, Professor,

257
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:43.879
<v Speaker 1>we've talked about this. I don't believe Donald Trump or

258
00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.480
<v Speaker 1>the Republican Party care about undocuted mented immigration at all.

259
00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:50.879
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe they care about it anywhere. They care

260
00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:53.720
<v Speaker 1>about abortion. It's an issue to get votes. If they

261
00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:57.320
<v Speaker 1>wanted to stop border crossings, I've always said they would

262
00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:00.639
<v Speaker 1>incarcerate the employers who put up a giant help want

263
00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:02.919
<v Speaker 1>that sign at our border. The only reason they cross

264
00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:07.039
<v Speaker 1>our border is for all those jobs white employers dangle

265
00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.120
<v Speaker 1>fro undocumented people, and when the Republican Party refuses to

266
00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:12.480
<v Speaker 1>go after those employers, it seems like it's, say, just

267
00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:14.679
<v Speaker 1>a racket to get votes. So when I first heard

268
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:17.080
<v Speaker 1>that he was doing this birthright citizenship thing, I thought, well,

269
00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:20.360
<v Speaker 1>that's wacky and racist and probably won't go anywhere. But

270
00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.279
<v Speaker 1>as the weeks have gone by, Toy, I've begun to worry, Well,

271
00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.840
<v Speaker 1>what if they just did it as a trial balloon.

272
00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.080
<v Speaker 1>What if that was just a focus group to see

273
00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:31.600
<v Speaker 1>right off the bat, how much can we get away

274
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:34.200
<v Speaker 1>with and let's start weakening the guardrails.

275
00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:36.559
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly what I think is going on here. And

276
00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.600
<v Speaker 2>let's just lay out for listeners exactly why I don't

277
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.039
<v Speaker 2>think this is a two sides issue. There's not a

278
00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:46.159
<v Speaker 2>real debate about him. The Constitution says very clearly that

279
00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:49.120
<v Speaker 2>if you're born in the United States, you are a citizen,

280
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:52.440
<v Speaker 2>and it doesn't have anything about undocumented people. And we

281
00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:55.559
<v Speaker 2>have a case Wan Kim Mark in the nineteenth century

282
00:14:55.879 --> 00:14:59.200
<v Speaker 2>that really settled this question, made it settle law. This

283
00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:04.519
<v Speaker 2>was a a Chinese national who in the United States

284
00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:08.080
<v Speaker 2>had a child, and the question was, is this person

285
00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:10.840
<v Speaker 2>the parent was not a citizen. Is this child a

286
00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.759
<v Speaker 2>citizen of the United States? And the court said, just

287
00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.440
<v Speaker 2>extremely clearly, Look, the fourteenth Amendment says what it says.

288
00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:21.360
<v Speaker 2>And this wasn't a progressive court, by the way, and

289
00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.360
<v Speaker 2>yet they were too embarrassed to say otherwise. They said,

290
00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:26.480
<v Speaker 2>if you're born in the United States, you are a citizen.

291
00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:30.639
<v Speaker 2>Now it does say that those subject to the jurisdiction,

292
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.840
<v Speaker 2>if the parents are subject to the jurisdiction, that's the requirement.

293
00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:36.440
<v Speaker 2>But that was really about trying to make sure that

294
00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.480
<v Speaker 2>if you were an ambassador, for instance, that your child

295
00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:42.480
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't automatically be a citizen, or if there was in

296
00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.200
<v Speaker 2>some case you could imagine an invading army that wouldn't

297
00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:47.919
<v Speaker 2>the children of that invading army wouldn't be citizens. But

298
00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:52.159
<v Speaker 2>absent that, it's a pretty absolute It is an absolute protection,

299
00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:55.039
<v Speaker 2>and it only is the most I should say here too,

300
00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.240
<v Speaker 2>the most fringe figures in all this. John Eastman who

301
00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.960
<v Speaker 2>is under indictment, and Arizona, who designed the insurrection. Really

302
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.519
<v Speaker 2>with Donald Trump, those are the kind of people trying

303
00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:09.679
<v Speaker 2>to defend this idea. And I think here are conservatives

304
00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:12.720
<v Speaker 2>and liberals, anyone who understands what the text says is

305
00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:15.120
<v Speaker 2>lining up against Trump. Yet, why would he do this?

306
00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.679
<v Speaker 2>To go to your question, given how clear it is,

307
00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:21.799
<v Speaker 2>and it's to try to really send a shot at

308
00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:25.080
<v Speaker 2>the Constitution. It is a cannon shot at the Constitution,

309
00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.159
<v Speaker 2>an attempt to make it clear that he seeks absolute

310
00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:30.480
<v Speaker 2>power and wants to destroy this document. If it was

311
00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:33.559
<v Speaker 2>just one case, maybe that wouldn't be what's happening. But

312
00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:37.240
<v Speaker 2>it's happening across the domain that he's challenging any limit

313
00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:38.120
<v Speaker 2>on his own power.

314
00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:40.840
<v Speaker 1>So can I ask you one more goofy question about

315
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:45.279
<v Speaker 1>the birthright citizenship because as you know, our indigenous brothers

316
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:49.799
<v Speaker 1>and sisters have had American American citizenship since nineteen twenty four,

317
00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:54.320
<v Speaker 1>Happy centennial, y'all. What's crazy to me? If you follow

318
00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump's career, you know he despises American Indians going

319
00:16:57.480 --> 00:16:59.440
<v Speaker 1>back to his days in the casinos and you know,

320
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:03.360
<v Speaker 1>making Pocahontas into a slur. But the Justice Department is

321
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.920
<v Speaker 1>defending this birthright citizenship order by arguing that immigrant kids

322
00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:12.200
<v Speaker 1>who are covered by birthright citizenship can't be citizens because

323
00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:17.920
<v Speaker 1>the children of Native Americans aren't really US citizens. This

324
00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:21.079
<v Speaker 1>is so daffy and stupid. It almost seems like they're

325
00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:23.640
<v Speaker 1>looking to be looked out of court. But they really

326
00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:28.279
<v Speaker 1>submitted this from the Pambandi Justice Department that Indians aren't

327
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.920
<v Speaker 1>really citizens. Why would they do something so blatantly unconstitutional

328
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:35.839
<v Speaker 1>and historically inaccurate. Are they just trying to see what

329
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.079
<v Speaker 1>shit will stick to the wall.

330
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:40.160
<v Speaker 2>No, they're trying to pay fast and loose with history

331
00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.279
<v Speaker 2>and confuse people. And I think they're succeeding in that, unfortunately,

332
00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:46.880
<v Speaker 2>because what the court did say in the Wankim Mark case,

333
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.519
<v Speaker 2>and this was before Native Americans were citizens at least many,

334
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:52.160
<v Speaker 2>and they were saying, look, if you're a member of

335
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.200
<v Speaker 2>a Native American tribe at the time that is not

336
00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:01.519
<v Speaker 2>doesn't have American citizenship, well then you're not covered by

337
00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:05.000
<v Speaker 2>this birthright citizenship. But of course, as you said, in

338
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:10.240
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen twenties, things change, Native Americans are given citizenships.

339
00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:13.839
<v Speaker 2>So they're trying to really use this historical analogy and

340
00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:17.759
<v Speaker 2>say that there's somehow an analogy between undocumented people now

341
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:21.559
<v Speaker 2>coming from other countries and the unique situation that Native

342
00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:24.559
<v Speaker 2>Americans were in before the nineteen twenties. It is, I

343
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:28.079
<v Speaker 2>would just say, very clearly a confusion of the issue.

344
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:30.680
<v Speaker 2>The other argument that I've heard floated, and I mean,

345
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:32.920
<v Speaker 2>I can't imagine they're going to say this before the

346
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.559
<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court when it gets there, but they're certainly thinking

347
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.559
<v Speaker 2>about it, is that the analogy is between undocumented people

348
00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:43.279
<v Speaker 2>and an invading army, and that rhetoric is just beyond

349
00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.759
<v Speaker 2>racist comprehensible. But that's what we're dealing with, that they

350
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.880
<v Speaker 2>think that somehow that families coming here to seek a

351
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:55.319
<v Speaker 2>better life or analogous to some occupying army, that should

352
00:18:55.359 --> 00:19:00.599
<v Speaker 2>be called out for the racist and horrible insult that

353
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:02.680
<v Speaker 2>it is. And that's what this whole case is. It

354
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.000
<v Speaker 2>really is an attempt to undo and let's go back

355
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:08.880
<v Speaker 2>to the principle, the idea of the fourteenth Amendment, including

356
00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:12.240
<v Speaker 2>the birthright citizenship clause, including the idea of equal protection,

357
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.319
<v Speaker 2>is an attempt to get rid of the horrific dread

358
00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.200
<v Speaker 2>Scott case that said that black Americans are not people

359
00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.920
<v Speaker 2>under the Constitution and to replace that evil idea with

360
00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:25.039
<v Speaker 2>a notion that we are all equal, regardless of who

361
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.039
<v Speaker 2>our parents are. Frederick Douglass talked about the idea of

362
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.960
<v Speaker 2>the corruption of blood, the practice of essentially allowing the

363
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.240
<v Speaker 2>next generation to inherit the punishments and crimes of a

364
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:39.079
<v Speaker 2>previous generation, and how antithetical that was to the notion

365
00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.160
<v Speaker 2>of we the people, and this clause by saying that

366
00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:45.240
<v Speaker 2>we are all Americans if we're born here full stop,

367
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.079
<v Speaker 2>is a way of guaranteeing that idea of equality, getting

368
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.839
<v Speaker 2>rid of this notion that our status is dependent on

369
00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.519
<v Speaker 2>our parents' status. And the attack on it really is

370
00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.200
<v Speaker 2>not just an attack on the children of undocumented people. Well,

371
00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:03.319
<v Speaker 2>it's an attack on the idea of American democracy and

372
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:04.839
<v Speaker 2>the notion of equal protection.

373
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:08.559
<v Speaker 1>Amen. You know, I was thinking, and Culter tweeted a

374
00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.079
<v Speaker 1>while ago, because so much of this is about the

375
00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:14.359
<v Speaker 1>fact that Caucasians are going to be a minority in

376
00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:16.799
<v Speaker 1>this country in the year twenty forty five. We're not

377
00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:19.519
<v Speaker 1>going away, folks, but we're going to be under fifty percent.

378
00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:23.640
<v Speaker 1>We're still going to control everything. Don't worry. Once we're

379
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.839
<v Speaker 1>a minority, will still control the systems of government itself.

380
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.640
<v Speaker 1>But white people. Some white people are freaking out about this.

381
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.000
<v Speaker 1>They don't like the way they've treated minorities and they

382
00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:35.839
<v Speaker 1>don't want to be treated the same way themselves. And

383
00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:38.359
<v Speaker 1>Culter had to tweet a while back saying that she

384
00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:41.200
<v Speaker 1>thought that we should have a law that all four

385
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.079
<v Speaker 1>of your grandparents should have been born in America in

386
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.200
<v Speaker 1>order to have the right to vote. And I thought,

387
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:51.960
<v Speaker 1>my god, with that policy, all of Trump's children wouldn't

388
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.599
<v Speaker 1>be allowed to vote, and Trump wouldn't either. Maybe I

389
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.880
<v Speaker 1>like that, But do you think you're going to see

390
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:02.000
<v Speaker 1>any conservatives rising up to say this is wrong? Will

391
00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:05.920
<v Speaker 1>any conservatives decide that the Constitution that they studied in

392
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.279
<v Speaker 1>law school means more to them than keeping their job

393
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:10.359
<v Speaker 1>and avoiding mean tweets?

394
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.799
<v Speaker 2>I think it depends on the case. So I've been hardened,

395
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:17.400
<v Speaker 2>actually to see that this birthright citizenship nonsense is so

396
00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:20.519
<v Speaker 2>extreme that conservatives are saying, we can read, we have

397
00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:23.319
<v Speaker 2>a written constitution, you can't do this. Even John Yu,

398
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.160
<v Speaker 2>who is not exactly a defender of civil liberties, the

399
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:31.680
<v Speaker 2>person during the Bush administration, of course, extended the torture

400
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:36.880
<v Speaker 2>program of the Bush administration, says, no, I can read

401
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.359
<v Speaker 2>and you can't do this. Now. There are going to

402
00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:41.359
<v Speaker 2>be other cases, ones that will get to that. I

403
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.400
<v Speaker 2>think conservatives will go along. But here it is not

404
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.559
<v Speaker 2>that this is a two sides and we disagree. It

405
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.519
<v Speaker 2>is a blatant attempt to try to destroy the Constitution.

406
00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:53.319
<v Speaker 2>I do want to say there was, there are There's

407
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.079
<v Speaker 2>an important written descent in the Wan kim Ark case,

408
00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:59.759
<v Speaker 2>the case about the Chinese national that has a child

409
00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:03.160
<v Speaker 2>and and the court defends the birthright citizenship of.

410
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:05.119
<v Speaker 1>Eighteen ninety eight right eighteen ninety eight.

411
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.079
<v Speaker 2>And in this case there's a descent that really speaks

412
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:10.720
<v Speaker 2>to the moment. And what the descent is really about

413
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:15.000
<v Speaker 2>is the idea that really Chinese people are not like Americans,

414
00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.119
<v Speaker 2>they are separate race. It is the most racist creed

415
00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:20.720
<v Speaker 2>that you could imagine. Somebody said to me, well, why

416
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:22.680
<v Speaker 2>kim Mark had a descent? So I went and read

417
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.079
<v Speaker 2>it really closely, and I don't think I've ever seen

418
00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:29.440
<v Speaker 2>such a vile insult, such a pile of racism that

419
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:32.720
<v Speaker 2>even at the time was regarded by the majority as

420
00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:35.200
<v Speaker 2>too much to stand by. So that's really what we're

421
00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:36.960
<v Speaker 2>dealing with here, and we've got to call that out.

422
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.440
<v Speaker 2>This isn't a two sides reasonable disagreement. It is an

423
00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.839
<v Speaker 2>attack on not just any part of the Constitution. The

424
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:47.119
<v Speaker 2>thing we fought a war about the idea of equal protection.

425
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:50.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean we also thought a war against having a king.

426
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:53.200
<v Speaker 1>But with this immunity ruling, which I know you never

427
00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:57.359
<v Speaker 1>get tired of talking about, man, I mean King George Muster,

428
00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.759
<v Speaker 1>I hope he realized he was working way too hard

429
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:03.720
<v Speaker 1>because now with this immunity, we have a king. We

430
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:05.920
<v Speaker 1>have a king who's talking about not leaving office. Cory.

431
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:10.720
<v Speaker 1>And again we've discussed this on Sirius XM. He could

432
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.759
<v Speaker 1>strangle AOC with his bare hands and say it was

433
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:15.920
<v Speaker 1>part of the job, and there would be people in

434
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Congress who would defend him.

435
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Second Circuit Judge Judge Chen asked his lawyer, basically, are

436
00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:26.480
<v Speaker 2>you saying in defending presidential immunity this was a case

437
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:28.839
<v Speaker 2>about when he was a former president that he could

438
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:32.279
<v Speaker 2>essentially shoot someone on the street and get away with it.

439
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:34.640
<v Speaker 2>And the lawyer basically had to admit, Yeah, that is

440
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.119
<v Speaker 2>what I'm saying. And that's the worry here that you know, especially,

441
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:41.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't think there's any disagreement that Trump has immunity

442
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:48.640
<v Speaker 2>as president, and the disincentive that that creates to follow

443
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.799
<v Speaker 2>the law, the incentive it creates to law break, to

444
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.720
<v Speaker 2>go along with his what his corruption, his desire for

445
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:59.799
<v Speaker 2>absolute power is frightening. I have to bring up Patrick Henry,

446
00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:01.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, I bring him up all the time, but

447
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:03.839
<v Speaker 2>we haven't brought him up for this audience because it

448
00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:06.599
<v Speaker 2>speaks to the moment and how the immunity decision fits

449
00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:09.440
<v Speaker 2>into all of this. He says that the founding, this

450
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:11.880
<v Speaker 2>is the person who's famous for saying, give me liberty,

451
00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.880
<v Speaker 2>give me death. But he also less famously made a

452
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.680
<v Speaker 2>really dire warning at the founding. He said, do not

453
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.480
<v Speaker 2>ratify this constitution. That what we've got here is a

454
00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:26.880
<v Speaker 2>presidency that is so powerful it assumes George Washington a

455
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:29.400
<v Speaker 2>person of virtue in office. And then he asked, what

456
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.839
<v Speaker 2>if you get a bad person? What if you get

457
00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:35.160
<v Speaker 2>a criminal president, what's going to stop him? Impeachment's not

458
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:38.359
<v Speaker 2>going to work. He predicted essentially that there wasn't going

459
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:42.079
<v Speaker 2>to be the mechanism of prosecution, that there would be immunity,

460
00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:44.359
<v Speaker 2>and he said such a person would be above the

461
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:46.920
<v Speaker 2>loss so much so, and now this is the frightening

462
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:49.920
<v Speaker 2>part that they wouldn't hesitate to make one bold push

463
00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:52.640
<v Speaker 2>for the American throne. And that's what I worry that

464
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.759
<v Speaker 2>we're facing right now. That's why we're doing this podcast.

465
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:57.720
<v Speaker 2>And when you combine it with there are more than

466
00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:00.559
<v Speaker 2>forty cases going on now in the federal courts that

467
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:06.200
<v Speaker 2>are being challenged of obviously unconstitutional executive orders, and some

468
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:09.839
<v Speaker 2>of them, when you combine them with this immunity decision

469
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:13.759
<v Speaker 2>and the birthright citizenship, are all about consolidating power in

470
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.599
<v Speaker 2>a way that really would make Patrick Henry's warning come true.

471
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:19.200
<v Speaker 2>That's why it's such a dangerous moment.

472
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:21.519
<v Speaker 1>You're listening to the Oath in the Office with Professor

473
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:24.319
<v Speaker 1>Corey Breschneider and John feel saying we'll be right back

474
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:35.319
<v Speaker 1>after this. We are back. This is the Oath in

475
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:39.079
<v Speaker 1>the Office. From everything you've said, Nixon, if he'd known,

476
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:43.119
<v Speaker 1>didn't have to resign, and Ford never had to parton

477
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:47.039
<v Speaker 1>Nixon because Nixon's crimes weren't crimes. It's amazing, Corey, in

478
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:49.680
<v Speaker 1>fifty years we've gone from I am not a crook

479
00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:51.920
<v Speaker 1>to a crook is not a crook?

480
00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:54.920
<v Speaker 2>That's America. I should say. I'm going to say why

481
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:58.000
<v Speaker 2>in many ways. What we're facing now is Nixon's revenge.

482
00:25:58.039 --> 00:26:01.000
<v Speaker 2>But at the time he was ordered to US versus

483
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:03.960
<v Speaker 2>Nixon eight to zero. He was ordered to hand over

484
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.440
<v Speaker 2>the tapes that had been subpoenaed, and he did it.

485
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:12.839
<v Speaker 2>Ford's pardon of Nixon essentially admits that, yes, former presidents

486
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:17.839
<v Speaker 2>can be prosecuted. Nixon's Department of Justice did, really, I think,

487
00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:20.640
<v Speaker 2>in many ways make prominent the idea of immunity for

488
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:23.839
<v Speaker 2>a sitting president, but they didn't have the gall to

489
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.119
<v Speaker 2>argue that a former president couldn't be prosecuted. But then again,

490
00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:30.400
<v Speaker 2>Nixon did say in the interview with Frost, and this

491
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:32.559
<v Speaker 2>is where I think it all comes from, that when

492
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>a president does it, it's not illegal. That was a

493
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:37.640
<v Speaker 2>thought out idea. He thought that America was in a

494
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.279
<v Speaker 2>civil war and that the president has emergency powers, and

495
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:43.640
<v Speaker 2>that meant the ability to commit crimes. And the crimes

496
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.160
<v Speaker 2>of Nixon were so hidden by the pardon. They're so vast.

497
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.960
<v Speaker 2>They include, for instance, his ordering on a thievery basis.

498
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.039
<v Speaker 2>He's told by he believes that there are tapes in

499
00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:58.000
<v Speaker 2>the Brookings Institution documents. I should say that reveal that

500
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:01.200
<v Speaker 2>he had a secret dealing with the Vietcong in which

501
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.319
<v Speaker 2>he encouraged them to postpone the war until they could

502
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:08.920
<v Speaker 2>get a better deal from him. Essentially treason, and he

503
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:12.599
<v Speaker 2>knew he thought these documents were hidden in the Brookings Institution.

504
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:14.920
<v Speaker 2>And when Henry Kissinger says, well, if they have those,

505
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.960
<v Speaker 2>we should get them through court, he says, no, Henry,

506
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.119
<v Speaker 2>and everyone can listen to this on the tape. I

507
00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:23.039
<v Speaker 2>want that done on a thievery basis. So he was

508
00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:26.000
<v Speaker 2>a criminal president, but not even he went as far

509
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:29.160
<v Speaker 2>as Trump. And what we're facing now is somebody who

510
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:31.640
<v Speaker 2>believes that Nixon didn't go far enough that if you

511
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.680
<v Speaker 2>would have just pushed back, if you would have stuck

512
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:36.160
<v Speaker 2>to that idea that when the president does it, it's

513
00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:39.079
<v Speaker 2>not illegal, he could have gone even further. And that's

514
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:41.559
<v Speaker 2>why we are in the well, let's call it what

515
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:43.400
<v Speaker 2>it is, the self coup auto coup.

516
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:47.119
<v Speaker 1>That woom, You've got us feeling nostalgic for Nixon.

517
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:47.559
<v Speaker 2>Cory.

518
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:51.279
<v Speaker 1>That's what we've come to. Donald Trump is like a

519
00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:55.559
<v Speaker 1>less honest, less legal, less healthy, less attractive, less moral Nixon.

520
00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:59.359
<v Speaker 1>Let me ask you about the National Labor Relations Board case,

521
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:02.799
<v Speaker 1>because this one is not getting as much hype because

522
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:05.079
<v Speaker 1>they flooded the zone. This is the gish gallop. This

523
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:07.559
<v Speaker 1>is what the gas lighting is. There's you know, I

524
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:11.279
<v Speaker 1>call it what the fuck fatigue, professor. It's this non

525
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.680
<v Speaker 1>stop fire hose of what the fuck's designed to burn

526
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:19.400
<v Speaker 1>out our outrage systems and just be overwhelmed. So the

527
00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:24.039
<v Speaker 1>National Labor Relations Board, I thought their board members had

528
00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:28.880
<v Speaker 1>legal protection against being randomly fired. Is this another example

529
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:32.119
<v Speaker 1>of them saying, screw the law, let them sue us,

530
00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:33.960
<v Speaker 1>and let's see how my ringers on the court find.

531
00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:36.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm so glad we're talking about this because this is

532
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:39.799
<v Speaker 2>one of those wonky cases that if you don't understand it,

533
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.000
<v Speaker 2>you're going to miss what's happening, and so it's worth

534
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.960
<v Speaker 2>going deep on it. This is a case in which

535
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:51.279
<v Speaker 2>member of the NLRB was fired, even though there's a

536
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:54.680
<v Speaker 2>requirement that that can't be done unless you could show

537
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:58.880
<v Speaker 2>that there was malfeasans or that there was good cause

538
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:01.720
<v Speaker 2>for the firing. It's a protection, in other words, against

539
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:05.519
<v Speaker 2>solely political firing. And yet Trump did it anyway, Now,

540
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:08.559
<v Speaker 2>why would he do that in this case. It's certainly

541
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:11.519
<v Speaker 2>that he's challenging the law, but it's that he thinks

542
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:14.039
<v Speaker 2>that he might have the votes on the Supreme Court

543
00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:18.160
<v Speaker 2>to really bring back political firing, not just in this case,

544
00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:20.759
<v Speaker 2>but the real question is whether or not the move

545
00:29:20.839 --> 00:29:25.240
<v Speaker 2>towards Schedule F, the reclassification of federal employees to get

546
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:29.160
<v Speaker 2>rid of the civil service protection they have against political firing,

547
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:31.680
<v Speaker 2>a protection that goes back to the Pendleton Act of

548
00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:35.359
<v Speaker 2>the nineteenth century, the success and getting rid of the

549
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:39.119
<v Speaker 2>spoils system. What he wants is complete control. He wants

550
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:44.200
<v Speaker 2>loyalty these civil servants, the head of the NLRB. They're

551
00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.880
<v Speaker 2>independent and protected from political firing because in our system

552
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:50.960
<v Speaker 2>there are laws and they are charged with carrying those

553
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:54.279
<v Speaker 2>laws out. And Trump is trying to undermine that by

554
00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:58.680
<v Speaker 2>gaining total control, demanding total loyalty, and that means the

555
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.799
<v Speaker 2>ability to hire and fire at will. Now here's the kicker.

556
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:04.400
<v Speaker 2>It's not just here that he wants to do it.

557
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:07.200
<v Speaker 2>It's that he might succeed because there's a long standing

558
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:11.720
<v Speaker 2>theory known as the unitary executive and extended in full,

559
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.200
<v Speaker 2>it would mean complete control of the executive branch over

560
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:17.839
<v Speaker 2>hiring and firing. I don't know if Elon musk knew

561
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:20.000
<v Speaker 2>he was talking about it today From the Oval office.

562
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:23.200
<v Speaker 2>But when he said, look, you win an election, democracy

563
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.039
<v Speaker 2>means you can do whatever he wants. That is an

564
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:28.680
<v Speaker 2>idea that the Supreme Court might affirm. And just to

565
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:32.880
<v Speaker 2>be clear, that isn't American democracy. American democracy involves laws

566
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:35.559
<v Speaker 2>that no one is above and that civil servants are

567
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:38.680
<v Speaker 2>obligated to carry out. And Trump wants to reverse that

568
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:42.039
<v Speaker 2>with a very undemocratic idea, one of dictatorship in which

569
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:46.079
<v Speaker 2>he can decide what everyone should do, and that includes

570
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:47.920
<v Speaker 2>choosing loyalty over the law.

571
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.279
<v Speaker 1>We just heard the federal judge over the last weekend

572
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:56.119
<v Speaker 1>who temporarily restricted Elon Musk's in cells from the Treasury

573
00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.359
<v Speaker 1>Department's payment and data systems, saying there's a risk of

574
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:03.519
<v Speaker 1>irreparable harm. We don't know if they're complying with that,

575
00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:05.839
<v Speaker 1>but this was Judge Paul Englemeyer. He put out this

576
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:09.880
<v Speaker 1>emergency order and saying that Trump's whole new policy of

577
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.119
<v Speaker 1>letting political appointees or special government employees have access to

578
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.000
<v Speaker 1>these systems heightens the risk of leaks and the systems

579
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:22.400
<v Speaker 1>are more vulnerable to hacking. So the outcry against this

580
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:27.680
<v Speaker 1>judge has been astonishing. Congressman Eli Crane has now said,

581
00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:32.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm drafting articles of impeachment for US District Judge Paul Englemeyer.

582
00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:36.319
<v Speaker 1>Partisan judges abusing their positions is a threat to democracy.

583
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:38.480
<v Speaker 1>The left has done a reparable harm to this country.

584
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:40.359
<v Speaker 1>Trump at the team at Doze, you're trying to fix it.

585
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:43.559
<v Speaker 1>This is obviously judicial overreach. Judge Englmeyer is attempting to

586
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:47.880
<v Speaker 1>stop White House employees from accessing the very systems they oversee.

587
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:50.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if these nineteen year olds named big

588
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Balls are official White House employees Corey, but the judge,

589
00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:57.799
<v Speaker 1>I think most conservatives would agree that it's a time

590
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.160
<v Speaker 1>for some caution. It's not just we have to point

591
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:06.599
<v Speaker 1>out the entire Republican Party is lawless now, anti constitution,

592
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:10.279
<v Speaker 1>anti guardrails, anti rule of law. I guess when we've

593
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:13.480
<v Speaker 1>seen these guys celebrate cops being beaten on the Capitol

594
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:17.000
<v Speaker 1>steps for a lie, and then releasing the men who

595
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:20.200
<v Speaker 1>attacked the cops, and then hunting the FBI agents who

596
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:23.839
<v Speaker 1>prosecuted these terrorists who attacked the cops, we really shouldn't

597
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:26.920
<v Speaker 1>be surprised that they're trying to get judges fired for

598
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:30.200
<v Speaker 1>protecting Americans paychecks and Social Security payments.

599
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:33.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is such an important issue that there is

600
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:36.640
<v Speaker 2>a process of impeachment and removal of federal judges. You

601
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:39.720
<v Speaker 2>have to show a high crime and misdemeanor and requires

602
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:42.519
<v Speaker 2>a majority of the House and two thirds to remove

603
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:46.039
<v Speaker 2>in the Senate. And that's supposed to be for serious

604
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:50.319
<v Speaker 2>malfeasans for undermining the core tenants of democracy, for instance,

605
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:54.799
<v Speaker 2>or for crime crimes. But what's going on here, and

606
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:57.880
<v Speaker 2>it ties into the last point, is that any judge

607
00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:00.640
<v Speaker 2>who doesn't go along with the agenda of stealing the

608
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:05.920
<v Speaker 2>power of the purse of extending the unitary executive, I

609
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:09.039
<v Speaker 2>should say too, in the unitary executive case, there are

610
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:12.680
<v Speaker 2>precedents that prohibit that, that protect the Pendulton Act, a

611
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.960
<v Speaker 2>case called Humphrey's Executor. And what they want these judges

612
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.799
<v Speaker 2>to do is to overturn those cases. Now, what if

613
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:21.759
<v Speaker 2>they don't do it. They're aware certainly that in the

614
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:25.519
<v Speaker 2>birthright citizenship case, in these cases that we're talking about

615
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:28.640
<v Speaker 2>about spending, that the judges might try to stop them.

616
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.519
<v Speaker 2>While they need this threat, we'll just get rid of them.

617
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:35.359
<v Speaker 2>We'll use what looks like legal process to really upend

618
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:39.240
<v Speaker 2>the entire judiciary. And the message is being sent, Yeah,

619
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.319
<v Speaker 2>we're asking you to upend the law, to re do

620
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:45.359
<v Speaker 2>the checks and balances that we learned about in the

621
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:47.759
<v Speaker 2>form of a dictatorship. And if you don't go along

622
00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:50.720
<v Speaker 2>with it, we've got a mechanism to stop you. We're

623
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:53.559
<v Speaker 2>going to fire you. And that's what Musk and company

624
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:57.559
<v Speaker 2>are pushing. None of this is virtue in the sense

625
00:33:57.599 --> 00:33:59.960
<v Speaker 2>of following the law or the text. It's all about

626
00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:01.359
<v Speaker 2>power and they might win.

627
00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:04.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so this is our first episode, and it's

628
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.759
<v Speaker 1>okay if what you've heard so far makes you want

629
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:10.800
<v Speaker 1>to draw a warm bath, open up your veins, hop

630
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:13.440
<v Speaker 1>on a Leonard Cohen song and jump in the tub.

631
00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:17.480
<v Speaker 1>But there is so much cause for hope. Corey. I'm

632
00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:19.199
<v Speaker 1>going to point now where I've had it with people

633
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.880
<v Speaker 1>who are despairing this early in the game. I've said

634
00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:24.360
<v Speaker 1>almost every night on Sirius XM. This is a fifteen

635
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.519
<v Speaker 1>round fight of Rocky versus Apollo Creed and we're still

636
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:31.320
<v Speaker 1>only in the first minute of round one. I think

637
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:35.000
<v Speaker 1>despare is privileged. But going forward, let me ask you,

638
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:39.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what can people do? We're facing these threats

639
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:44.679
<v Speaker 1>to democracy from this reality show racist clown, and you know,

640
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:47.800
<v Speaker 1>we only have so much power. People are calling Congress

641
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:49.840
<v Speaker 1>and being very mad morning Democrats to do more. They're

642
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:53.239
<v Speaker 1>praying the judicial branch saves us all. But I appreciate

643
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:56.960
<v Speaker 1>anybody who feels helpless right now. You talk about this,

644
00:34:57.079 --> 00:34:59.480
<v Speaker 1>professor in your most recent book, The Presidents of the People,

645
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:03.280
<v Speaker 1>But what can ordinary citizens do about this?

646
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:06.480
<v Speaker 2>Wow? John, what a great place to end, because this

647
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.440
<v Speaker 2>is I think the main reason to do the podcast,

648
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:11.840
<v Speaker 2>to not give into despair and to see the hope.

649
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:15.320
<v Speaker 2>And I think the fundamental lesson that we've seen again

650
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:18.360
<v Speaker 2>and again of American history is that there is a

651
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:21.679
<v Speaker 2>danger of the presidency and that Patrick Henry was right.

652
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:25.119
<v Speaker 2>It is powerful, and we have seen presidents who have

653
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:29.000
<v Speaker 2>threatened democracy. This isn't the first time we had John

654
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:33.079
<v Speaker 2>Adams use the Sedition Act to prosecute over one hundred

655
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:37.320
<v Speaker 2>and twenty of his opponents. And the Sedition Act, just

656
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:39.679
<v Speaker 2>to be clear of how bad it was, was written

657
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.559
<v Speaker 2>in a way that made it a crime to criticize

658
00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:44.760
<v Speaker 2>the president of the United States, but it didn't make

659
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:47.760
<v Speaker 2>it a crime to criticize the vice president, a member

660
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:51.239
<v Speaker 2>of the opposition party, Thomas Jefferson. And this law was

661
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:55.199
<v Speaker 2>used to prosecute again and again, those who criticize the president.

662
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:59.039
<v Speaker 2>He had an idea of the constitution that was not democratic.

663
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:02.440
<v Speaker 2>John Adams out of the president as a kind of monarch,

664
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:05.199
<v Speaker 2>and their right to free speech, even though it had

665
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:07.400
<v Speaker 2>been enacted in the First Amendment, didn't mean the right

666
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:11.079
<v Speaker 2>to criticize him. And what about the courts, And just

667
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:13.559
<v Speaker 2>to see the parallel, why did the Supreme Court not

668
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.559
<v Speaker 2>come and say, hey, we have a First Amendment, you

669
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.760
<v Speaker 2>can't do that John Adams. It's because the courts were

670
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.960
<v Speaker 2>in bed with John Adams. In fact, Samuel Chase, one

671
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.840
<v Speaker 2>of the most prominent Supreme Court justices of the time,

672
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:27.679
<v Speaker 2>lobbied for this Sedition Act and the shutdown of the

673
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:31.400
<v Speaker 2>opposition party, went and sat on the trial of each

674
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:35.639
<v Speaker 2>of these sorry let me say that again, went and

675
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:38.480
<v Speaker 2>sat on the trial of Thomas Cooper, one of the

676
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:43.119
<v Speaker 2>editors who criticized Adams. So the courts weren't going to

677
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.639
<v Speaker 2>save us. There wasn't going to be impeachment because the

678
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:48.960
<v Speaker 2>president's party was in Congress as well. So what happened?

679
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:51.719
<v Speaker 2>How did we survive that moment and actually get the

680
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:54.719
<v Speaker 2>American democracy that we have where we're able to do

681
00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:57.280
<v Speaker 2>what you and I are doing criticize the president, at

682
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:01.920
<v Speaker 2>least for now without going to prison. These editors heroically

683
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:04.800
<v Speaker 2>fought back. They used their own trials to put John

684
00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Adams on trial to say that there is a rule

685
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:10.920
<v Speaker 2>of law that stands above everyone, even this president. And

686
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:13.639
<v Speaker 2>then they use politics. They used the election of eighteen

687
00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:17.159
<v Speaker 2>hundred to make it a referendum on democracy. And when

688
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:20.159
<v Speaker 2>Adams was tossed out and Jefferson came in and he

689
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:23.440
<v Speaker 2>uttered the words, we are all federalists, we are all Republicans,

690
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:26.519
<v Speaker 2>he was saying, I'm not going to have a sedition Act.

691
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:28.800
<v Speaker 2>It was a recovery of the idea not just a

692
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:32.199
<v Speaker 2>free speech, but of the right to dissent. So these stories,

693
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:35.960
<v Speaker 2>and we'll talk about more of them, the really heroic

694
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:41.280
<v Speaker 2>activity and speeches of Frederick Douglas who pushed back against

695
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:45.320
<v Speaker 2>the dred Scock case and Buchanan, people like William Monroe Trotter,

696
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.880
<v Speaker 2>and others like Sadie Alexander who pushed back in the

697
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:52.559
<v Speaker 2>twentieth century against the segregation initiated by Woodrow Wilson. These

698
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:54.880
<v Speaker 2>people didn't just fight back, They figured out a way

699
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:58.920
<v Speaker 2>to win by turning their descent into a political movement

700
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:02.679
<v Speaker 2>that recaptured American democracy. And really, that's my hope of

701
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:04.639
<v Speaker 2>what we're doing at this moment, not only to not

702
00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:08.039
<v Speaker 2>give into despair, not only to call out what's happening,

703
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:11.840
<v Speaker 2>not only to fight back, but to use these moments

704
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:16.000
<v Speaker 2>to try to galvanize the American people into recovering our democracy.

705
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:17.440
<v Speaker 2>I love it.

706
00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:20.639
<v Speaker 1>This is why you are the anti Alina Habba, and

707
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.480
<v Speaker 1>I thank you very much for that, professor. I'm thrilled

708
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:25.400
<v Speaker 1>to do this show with you. I'm excited to learn,

709
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:28.679
<v Speaker 1>and you know, I think information and knowledge is one

710
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:31.400
<v Speaker 1>of the antidotes for despair at a time like this.

711
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:33.800
<v Speaker 1>I am a firm believer that the only thing that's

712
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:38.320
<v Speaker 1>going to beat these fascists is nonviolence, humor and ridicule,

713
00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:43.039
<v Speaker 1>and a very informed populace of informed voters and consumers.

714
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:45.199
<v Speaker 1>And so I'm really really happy to take this journey

715
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:47.280
<v Speaker 1>with you. I want to tell everybody this would be

716
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:50.760
<v Speaker 1>a really good time for y'all to subscribe and rate

717
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:53.559
<v Speaker 1>us and review us on Apple podcasts. If you want

718
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:56.800
<v Speaker 1>to give Corey five stars but give me none, you

719
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:58.639
<v Speaker 1>can split it and give it four. Maybe you know

720
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.599
<v Speaker 1>do that, But let's let's get some reviews and Coreo

721
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:04.559
<v Speaker 1>as we go by in the weeks to come, I'm

722
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:09.079
<v Speaker 1>really looking forward to taking the most outrageously confusing acts

723
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:12.199
<v Speaker 1>of malfeasance and legal fuckery these guys try, and breaking

724
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.679
<v Speaker 1>down the history, breaking down the Constitution. I find it

725
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:18.239
<v Speaker 1>really really comforting to know definitively how wrong they are.

726
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:21.079
<v Speaker 1>I mean, do you have hope that historians of the

727
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.360
<v Speaker 1>future are not going to be swayed by Donald Trump's nonsense?

728
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:27.039
<v Speaker 1>And you know, I think dumb people of the future

729
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:29.159
<v Speaker 1>aren't going to remember Donald Trump. They're not going to

730
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:32.159
<v Speaker 1>know and the historians will know everything and won't be

731
00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:35.280
<v Speaker 1>swayed by ads and won't be swayed by racism for migrants.

732
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:38.519
<v Speaker 1>In the long run, I think America will survive this.

733
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:40.280
<v Speaker 1>A lot of people will be hurt in the meantime,

734
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.079
<v Speaker 1>but these guys aren't going to win long term.

735
00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:44.039
<v Speaker 2>The history books.

736
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.039
<v Speaker 1>I don't see any way they come off as the

737
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:47.360
<v Speaker 1>good guys. One hundred years from now.

738
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:52.119
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I think that, you know, the judgment of history

739
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:56.199
<v Speaker 2>is going to show that Donald Trump was seriously on

740
00:39:56.239 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Speaker 2>the wrong side, opposing basic ideas of democracy and freedom.

741
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:03.559
<v Speaker 2>And that's why I'm so honored to be in this series.

742
00:40:03.559 --> 00:40:06.679
<v Speaker 2>Of conversations with you, John, to bring it as wide

743
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:10.239
<v Speaker 2>an audience as we can, to really make us aware

744
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:13.320
<v Speaker 2>of what this threat to democracy is, to not get

745
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.039
<v Speaker 2>fooled by the different techniques and arguments that they're going

746
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:18.639
<v Speaker 2>to use to try to pretend that they're defending freedom

747
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:21.239
<v Speaker 2>or defending democracy. We're going to call it out, we're

748
00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:23.280
<v Speaker 2>going to explain it, and we're going to have fun

749
00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:25.840
<v Speaker 2>along the way, because I think the joy and the

750
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:28.280
<v Speaker 2>humor and all of that is part of what it

751
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:32.000
<v Speaker 2>means to oppose. I want to be tyranny and we'll

752
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.719
<v Speaker 2>do that together. And so thanks for doing this. It's

753
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:37.960
<v Speaker 2>such a pleasure to be in conversation. And as John says,

754
00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:41.400
<v Speaker 2>please subscribe to the Oath in the Office and post

755
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:42.039
<v Speaker 2>some reviews.

756
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:43.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and I want to thank you. I want to

757
00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:45.960
<v Speaker 1>thank everybody who put this together, and most of all,

758
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:48.280
<v Speaker 1>I want to thank my parole officer for telling me

759
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:51.840
<v Speaker 1>this would be a very good idea for my eventual clearance. Guys,

760
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:54.519
<v Speaker 1>it's a real joy. The show is once again the

761
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:56.519
<v Speaker 1>Oath in the Office. Thank you guys for listening to us.

762
00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:59.199
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back next time. Be sure to subscribe for

763
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:02.880
<v Speaker 1>Professor Kurey Bret Schneider. I'm John Thiegele Sang Sang Peace.

764
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:03.800
<v Speaker 1>We'll see you next week.

765
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:06.519
<v Speaker 2>M