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Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot net Rocks with

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Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey,

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welcome back to dot net Rocks, the Internet audio talk

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show for dot net developers. I haven't said dot in

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about twelve years.

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Speaker 2: There you go.

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Speaker 1: I'm Carl Franklin, an AMATE account. We got the UNO

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guys here with us today. I'm really psyched about that, Richard.

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But what's new with you?

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Speaker 2: Well, the theory. It's twenty twenty six now. Of course

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we're still recording us back in twenty twenty five. But

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I'm back home after what ten weeks of travels?

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Speaker 1: So yeah home, good gy levanting, Yeah good.

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Speaker 2: There was much manting.

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Speaker 1: I don't really have much small talk other than to

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say we should probably just roll the crazy music for

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better no framework, all right, all right, So I have

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never used a media manager like PLEX or anything like that,

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but I know people love these things. Sure, And there's now. Well,

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I don't know if now, but it's trending. A free

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software media system on GitHub called jelly Finn. Have you

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guys heard of this? Oh yeah, no, Sam Jeron, have

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you heard of this thing?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I heard a bit.

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Speaker 2: Ok.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's a free software media system that puts

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you in control of managing and streaming your media. It's

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an alternative to the proprietary MB and flex to provide

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media from a dedicated server to end user devices. We

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have multiple apps. It's descended from MB's three point five

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point two release, imported to the dot net platform to

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enable full cross platform support, no strings attached, no premium

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licenses or features, so you know, naturally, I think our

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listeners will like that.

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Speaker 2: It's nice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, as long as it's containerized, that's good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's dot net, it must be able to

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be containerized, so no learning. Love it. That's all I got. Richard,

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who's talking to.

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Speaker 2: Us, grabbed a comment of a show nineteen eighty, the

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one we did with Gary ewen Park. We were talking

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a bit about package management of the whole. Got a

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couple of nice comments off of that one, not the

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least of which saying, hey, thanks for uniget ui. That's

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just what I needed. Yeah, but a comment I wanted

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to read was from Lucas, who said, hey, can you

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keep the yearly intros please, especially the tech and aerospace parts.

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It's extremely enjoyable, like drinking hot chocolate with marshmallows. Very cool. Nice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we got a mixed bag because we got one

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comment that was like, geez, it's taken so long to

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get to the guests.

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Speaker 2: All right, it's always a question should we just cut

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right to it or do you know there's preambles useful?

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Speaker 1: But well, the good news for these people who find it,

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you know, too long, is that next year will be

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done because we'll catch up to twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna hit two thousand and two and loop out.

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Is that what's going to happen?

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Speaker 1: Okay, twenty twenty six, No, twenty twenty six, Yeah, twenty

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twenty six, Okay, yeah, that'll be the last one in

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Maybe that's you know, arguably, we could probably stop now

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because everybody was probably born back in these days.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, we don't want to get too far

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in the future. Then what will you do?

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Speaker 1: That's true.

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Speaker 2: Lucas goes on to say, you kept going back to

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how crazy it is for someone to be running a

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dot net framework in Windows twenty twelve system. Personally, I

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you know a few like this. They were built, deployed

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and there is no more budget to do anything with

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it except basic maintenance and bug fixes. Not looking far

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the core component of Power Platform Data versus Dynamics CRM

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twenty eleven with some makeup on it. I guess was

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our ad ins runs on. Iis with ASP dot net

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web forms and dot net four six two the plug

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in samdbox, which is where most of the business logic

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lives on twenty twelve. This is a premium Microsoft business

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offering that still runs on old tech because of backward compatibility,

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upgrade costs, and loss of talent because these days everything

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is outsourced, right, which is interesting because that you know,

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how long before you cannot outsource work on a four

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to six y two app? You know, like those people

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will eventually go away too.

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Speaker 3: Hey it's gonna help, Yeah, we can tell.

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Speaker 2: Well that's you know, you make the perier points you're own,

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which is that modernization tools have been gotten dramatically better.

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Oh yes, like the the use of LLMS in modernizing

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old applications and so forth. Means you just don't need

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the same skill set to rehab these things. So it

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is interesting to see how these things move forward. But Lucas,

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thank you so much for your comment, and a copy

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of music Code is on its way to you. And

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if you'd like a copy of music co buy, I

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right a comment on the website at dot at rocks

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dot com or on the facebooks. You publish every show there,

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and if you comment there and I reading the show,

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we'll send you copy of Musico.

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Speaker 1: Music to Koba, still being used by thousands of developers

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to stay in focus. Twenty five minute long tracks. There's

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twenty two of them now. I'm still working on twenty three.

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But that should be here before Christmas, which means that

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you already missed it should be already here. Okay, yeah,

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So yeah, that's it. Music to go by dot net

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if you want to get the collection in wave, flak

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or MP three formats. So let's talk about what happened

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in nineteen eighty four, and so much stuff happened. We're

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going to keep this list pretty short, sure, because this

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is episode nineteen eighty four. Brunei gained full independence from

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the UK on January first, and Derek Gandhi was assassinated

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Prime Minister of India on October thirty first. The first

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embryo transfer on February third, from one woman to another

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resulted in a live birth.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Summer Olympics for held in Los Angeles from July twenty

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eight to August twelfth. Van Halen released their album nineteen

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eighty four on January ninth, which was a huge hit.

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And there are so many good movies that came out

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in nineteen eighty four. I'll just list a few. The Terminator, I'medais,

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Once Upon a Time in America, Indiana, Jones and The

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Temple of Dune, Ghostbusters, Nightmare on Elm Street. This is

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spinal tap, moment of silence for Rob Reiner. Yeah, very sad, Gremlins,

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Beverly Hills Cop and the Karate Kid.

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Speaker 2: That is a crazy roster crazy Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The Karate Kid, Holy crap, I mean yeah. And that's

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just like the top ten. So that's what I got.

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Richard talk about space and technology in nineteen eighty four.

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Speaker 2: All the action in space in nineteen eighty four is

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shuttle flights, primarily. I'm not going to go with all

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those actually six of them, three for Discovery and three

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for Challenger, which is interesting because like, how are they

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going so fast? Because this is before the Challenger disaster

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and everything slows down. Columbia doesn't fly at all in

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nineteen eighty four. I fect you won't fly again until

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nineteen eighty nine because she's in the midst of a

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refit having flown the first six missions and now is

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going to have her objection seats removed and some other

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upgrades and things done to her. Of the most interesting

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flights for that year. This is the year of the

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manned maneuvering unit. So the fourth flight of Challenger STS

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forty one B Bruce McCandless puts on a suit basically

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a space suit with a chair attached to it that

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he can fly, and he's now his own portable spacecraft

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and does the first other completely untethered flight away from

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a shuttle and first time any human's ever flown completely alone.

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Pretty amazing in a space He went about three hundred

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feet roughly ninety meters away from Challenger. Apparently one of

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the goals of the mission was at some point he

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was supposed to turn away from Challenger and like look

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Out in the darkness of space, and he never did it,

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so I strongly suspect he was a little nervous out there.

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Apparently he was really cold, actually turn the cooling systems

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off to try and stay comfortable. But this is the

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only year that the MMus will be used, and they

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will be used later. There'll be another mission where they'll

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launch a pair space of satellites Westar six and PAPLA

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B two, and neither one of them will actually fire

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their boosters and go into their correct orbits, and so

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later that year they'll come back out in another shuttle

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and use the MMus to retrieve those satellites, repair them,

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and finish their flights. There was one other mission, the

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Solar Maxim mission, where they tried to use THEMMU to

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retrieve the satellite but couldn't lock onto it. There was

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things in the way, and so they ended up doing

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it entirely manually by getting the shuttle close to enough

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to it and stopping it by hand. Wow, with three people,

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a little crazy, but that is nuts. They were able

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to retrieve the smm and repair it and get it

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on its way. So you know, this is a period

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of shuttle and I think a lot of people have

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forgotten about where they were launching satellites, retrieving and repairing satellites,

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all of which will end in nineteen eighty six after

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the Challenger disaster. And so the MMU was used on

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three flights in eighty four and never used again.

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Speaker 1: How much money did they spend on all that stuff?

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Speaker 2: Quite a bit?

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Speaker 1: But yet billions and billions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not that expensive. Okay, this is the year

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that Ronald Reagan approves a space station design. The time,

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the specification was for less than eight billion dollars and

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no more than eight billion dollars. They were very wrong

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about that. There were eight different designs proposed. The ones

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selected they called the Power Tower, which is actually kind

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of similar to the ISS. It had four big solar

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panels about seventy five kilowatts worth and a long main

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spine that would house various units. This is not the

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course of the station that would get launched. They were

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supposed launch just one in nineteen einety one, and it

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would be built over twelve admissions. The ISS, of course,

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comes almost a decade later, with far more international cooperation

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and a lot more flights. On the computing side, this

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two different computers launched by IBM. This, of course, the

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original IBM PC was a few years before. This is

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the year of the PC junior code named Peanut Oh,

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with an eighty eighty eight one hundred and twenty K

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of RAM. It was about thirteen hundred dollars and a

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complete failure. They sold a couple hundred times. But also

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the year of the model fifty one to seventy, also

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known as the PCAT. This was a much more expensive machine,

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about six thousand retail when it came out with a

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two to eighty six six gigahertz later upgraded to or sorry,

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six megahertz later upgraded to eight megahertz. You get it

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with two hundred fifty six or five hundred twelve K

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on board upgradable to three and a half megs with cards,

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a twenty megabyte hard drive. That was the AT part

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and the ever amazing EGA or in ANST graphics. Yes

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that's right, six forty by three point fifty with sixteen colors.

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Sixteen colors, yeah, on a nine pin connector.

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Speaker 1: I upgraded from an XT turbo clone to an AT

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and then to a three eighty six later, and at

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each level I was like, oh my god, this is

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faster than anyone will ever need.

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Speaker 2: It was such a big.

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Speaker 1: Because I was judging it by how fast it printed

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text on the screen. That's it.

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Speaker 2: That, you know. This is the horsepower race. Same year

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that the famous Apple nineteen eighty four commercial comes out

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at the Super Bowl. It is shown exactly once and

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announces the Macintosh computer, which we released later that year.

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Also the year that CD ROMs, initially made by Sony

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and then by everybody come out in the idea of

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multimedia in computers, the idea that we'd have music and

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sound and graphics and video all synchronized.

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Speaker 1: I remember that year there was a mac commercial on

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TV where father is putting together a PC and he

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says to a kid, want to see some dinosaurs? Billy, yeah, Dad,

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all right, let's any guys typing configus. He's like, dinosaurs now, Dad, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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hang on a second Auto exec bat buffers dinosaurs, Dad

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yeah yeah, give me a mite, you know, And then

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he finally says, I'm going to David's house.

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Speaker 2: He's got mad nice.

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Speaker 1: It was just the first and a whole bunch of

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slam rubbit in Windows Faces commercials that would come later.

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Speaker 2: Last, but not least certainly not for me. The book

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Neuromancer is published by author is William Gibson. He's out

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of Vancouver and he's the guy who coined this term cyberspace.

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Right well, writing that book on a wedgewood typewriter. Awesome, yeah,

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very cool. Apparently it's finally being made into a TV

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show or a movie or something after all these years.

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Speaker 1: Awesome, all right, Sam and Jerome, we.

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Speaker 4: Are, yes, sir, And for what it's worth, I really

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enjoy the year Retrospectives and Past twenty twenty five, twenty six.

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I think you should go on for at least another

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one hundred more to see how far off we are.

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Speaker 1: Going to the future. Right all right, Well, that was

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the voice of Sam Bassu. He's a technologist, author, speaker,

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Microsoft MVP and developer advocate for the UNO platform. With

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a long developer background, he now spends much of his

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time advocating modern development platforms and AI tools for cross

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platform technology stacks. His spare time, this is the best part.

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His spare times call for travel, fast cars, cricket, and

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culinary adventures. And you can find him on the internet.

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Speaker 4: Sure, I am so thank you for having me. I

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think it's my fourth or fifth with you folks, and

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Jerome Provd is the same.

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Speaker 1: And Jerome Lebon is here. He's been programming since nineteen

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ninety eight, mainly involved in dot net and see sharp

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development as a teacher, trainer consultant in France. He is

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the CTO of the UNO platform, a framework trying to

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improve the development cycle of cross platform apps using Windows, iOS,

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Android and web assembly using Mono and zamorin Welcome Jerome.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you, well well anoyse that mean, it's been

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a while. It's the it's full dotte that now and

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uh and of course you all right others, So yeah,

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it's been it's been a while. You know, technologies have

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been evolving.

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Speaker 1: Somebody needs to update their bio on the UNO website.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I do need I do need to update

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that for sure, probably step in some of a I

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then it's been yeah, I've been doing that for for

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a few months now.

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Speaker 1: It's you changing, yes, yes, well, welcome to you both.

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And it's been a while since we talked to anyone

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about who know for you know, for a while. But

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bring us up to speed. What are you guys doing,

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What are you working on?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let me start and thank you again for having us.

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So I'll go start with the basics here, because I'm

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sure Jeri has talked about it like a thousand times now.

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But you know, here we are end of twenty twenty five,

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starting out twenty twenty six, and UNA platform as it

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stands today is the most flexible, mature, open source stack

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for dot net developers to build cross platform apps that

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simply run everywhere, single shared code base. But you know,

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we take you to iOS and Android for mobile, you know,

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web browser web assembly that's done, and then Windows and.

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Speaker 1: Not using Mono or zamorin right.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, actually no it is it is. It

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is Mono for the web. Yes, it's the Mono VM underneath.

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So you know it's not completely outdated. Okay, it's moving,

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you know, Maxaft is moving to use corclr on the web,

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but it's not there yet.

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Speaker 4: Okay continues Yeah, and then all of the you know,

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desktop and embedded devices, Windows, mac Os and Linux and

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everywhere else you want. So that's the stack, and that's

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always been open source and very welcoming to everybody. We

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have been working a lot on tooling, trying to squeeze

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out every bit of productivity that we can from developers.

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Speaker 1: And I know it's been a while since we talked

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to gave the elevator pitch about UNO. But what is

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the the UI technology that you're using, Like you know,

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some people use Ammal, Blazer uses mark up. What is

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your stack?

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Speaker 3: So yeah, so you know is enzammle. You know, so

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Zammal and sea Sharp. So we have two ways for

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people to to do UI in that sense, we know

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that not everyone's using Exammle or love Examle. So that's

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why we introduced a few years back sea sharp markup,

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so there's a way to pretty much express the same

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UI but using Sea Sharp constructs. The Sambal flavor is

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is the win UY one and so it's using the

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same type of type of constructs that that winnipe is

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DK and and win Uy three has been using for

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a while. So we're providing that that same that same experience.

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On top of that, we we have also everything is

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non uy and that's the important part pretty much, you

321
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know win our team, so we're talking about sensors, file

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system access, resources, access, you know, networking and everything like that,

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and that that is another core component of we know

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to be able to provide unified a p I for

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actually saying everything, uh, using one code base everywhere.

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Speaker 2: So how does dot net ten impact you guys, because

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we just got past the latest dot Net cop and

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there were a lot of announcements and obviously a new

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version of the framework.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I can tell you that. So huge performance improvements. Obviously,

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you know we all wait for Steven Tubes. Uh, you know,

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novel of a blog post, the greatest blog post ever,

333
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right right, to have to take two days off to

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read it. But it's amazing. And every you know, November,

335
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we get a new dot Net and every time there

336
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is you know, new performance tuning. So absolutely we gain

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all the performance improvements. But also dot net is a

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very you know, open and welcoming stack, so we actually

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partner up with the dot net teams over at Microsoft,

340
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and you know, we have very you know deep expertise

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in certain parts of the dot net stack, especially how

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it relates to iOS and Android and you know native

343
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AOT and Skia rendering, so we actually help and maintain

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parts of that stack. So it's all out in the open.

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So we are collaborating and you know, moving the whole

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ecosystem forward.

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Speaker 1: Together, modernizing existing applications to dot net ten. Isn't just

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an option now, it's necessary. I mean we I have

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a customer that we are doing that with an aspnut

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web forms application. In some cases they were creating UI

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and concatenating strings of HTML together with code, and we

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changed that to use dot net ten and span of

353
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T and we got up to a five thousand percent

354
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increase in speed. I mean, you think about that for

355
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a minute.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it is nice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the performance improvements are there, you know, everything related

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to span and to you know, refstruck and everything like that.

359
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We're using that extensively inside of you know, and every

360
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every duration of dot net is bringing us you know,

361
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significant performance improvements and uh, you know, it's it's always

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a pleasure to see, as Sam said, and you to

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see h uh, Stefan will provide all of those two

364
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bits of information for each platform, and you know, we're

365
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we're seeing in the future, you know, everything that's that's

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converging to core c l R having the same kind

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of improvements everywhere the web is going to be very

368
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interesting to see in the upcoming version of dot net

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to have the same kind of you know, uh, smaller

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and down to the down to the up codes. They're

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executed in every single platform and wasn't included. Getting everything

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you know, optimized to the to the maximum is going

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to be very interesting. So it's uh, it's very nice

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to see for at every iteration, you know, to the enhancements.

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Speaker 4: We need tooling to be good with what we do.

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So VS twenty twenty six is out of Visual Studio

377
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called ships so often, so it's a good time.

378
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Speaker 1: I love twenty twenty six, really good stuff.

379
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Speaker 2: Hey.

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Speaker 3: They also improved the workloads of dot net. You know,

381
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it's been the most infamous part of of not that deployment.

382
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Uh you know, it was it was being used by

383
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OS and Android for for a long time that wasn't

384
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started using it and then Spider uses it now. So

385
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it makes for everything go a lot faster, a lot

386
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faster and smooth. And it's been a while since I've

387
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wined against anything related to workloads, so it's a good

388
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thing they've improved that quite a bit. And uh, you know,

389
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we we have no check when when you want to

390
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install and start with we know, so we start with

391
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,480
no check and then and install everything and we just

392
00:21:02,799 --> 00:21:06,240
call that up installed everything that's needed and off you go.

393
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,200
It's it's getting very easy with to start to get

394
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started without that.

395
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm always finding an interesting schism between you know,

396
00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:15,519
where do beginners go because people tend to send them

397
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to Visual Studio Code, but then they still have to

398
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figure out all of the bits they're going to need.

399
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Where Visual Studio has everything in there, but it's so

400
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,079
intimidating when you fire it up, like it's kind of unfair,

401
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,200
like it has all the things you need and yet

402
00:21:30,319 --> 00:21:32,559
you just struggle to find them or even understand what

403
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you're looking at.

404
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Speaker 4: Yeah, different beasts. You know, Visual Studio will always be

405
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,160
that rich idea that gets you everything. But you know,

406
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,759
if you do know what the run time pieces that

407
00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:44,680
you need, and most frameworks will have you know, one

408
00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:47,759
installer that you know brings down the tooling or one

409
00:21:47,839 --> 00:21:50,440
SELI tool that gets you all set up. So yes,

410
00:21:50,519 --> 00:21:54,000
you do need to know that piece. But otherwise you

411
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,839
know you have the lightweight editor experience. That's true everywhere.

412
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so I now I hear people can play.

413
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,720
It's like, I'm tired of firing up Visual Studio Code

414
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,519
because it takes so long now because they put so

415
00:22:05,599 --> 00:22:08,640
many add ins to it that they beaped it up.

416
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:09,599
Yeah it's heavy.

417
00:22:09,759 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 3: Oh it's still it's a balancing act. Yeah, it's not

418
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,680
as heavy as as VS. I mean VS is starting

419
00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:19,200
up fast, but VS code still is starting pretty quickly.

420
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, just be like me, get an I

421
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,039
nine that's what IM.

422
00:22:24,319 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 2: That thing comes most power.

423
00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:30,039
Speaker 4: Or the Apple M four hips, they're amazing.

424
00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:33,640
Speaker 1: Oh there you go, Yeah, there you go. That works.

425
00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:34,880
Auto can fix this.

426
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, definite fix th eighty six.

427
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:44,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

428
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Speaker 4: Uh so Carl, you you asked about you know, what's

429
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,039
the UI stack? My UI stack is I don't care anymore.

430
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,759
It's it's a very different world these days, right, Yeah,

431
00:22:55,759 --> 00:22:57,880
we may have heard of this thing called AI. It's

432
00:22:58,559 --> 00:23:01,720
starting to change how we live our lives and definitely

433
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,039
how we write software and.

434
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: How we write software. So let me ask the obvious question.

435
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,160
I think I ask it every time we talk to

436
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:13,640
somebody on you know, you got MAUI got h know, Well,

437
00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:15,680
why would I choose one or the other? Or would

438
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:16,319
I always choose?

439
00:23:16,319 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 4: You know, I can take that staff here as well.

440
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,119
It's not actually an either R. So you know I

441
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,480
was with you know, David Dartnau when we were talking

442
00:23:24,519 --> 00:23:27,720
about dotnor Maui updates in dot net ten. So we're

443
00:23:27,759 --> 00:23:30,960
partnering up with the dot or Maui folks again maintaining

444
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,079
parts of the stack because it's all open source dot net.

445
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,119
So there's a time and place for either. And you know,

446
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,160
there's some flexibility in the tech stack that you know,

447
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,880
we think we bring, but Maui will you know, remain solid.

448
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,119
It goes to iOS, Android, Windows and Mac. But the

449
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,720
moment you want to go to Linux or you want

450
00:23:50,759 --> 00:23:53,799
that you know web Assemily experience, that's where you might

451
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,799
you know, want to look at, you know. And then

452
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,160
also if you have had Zamora and apps or zamain

453
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,799
forumsapp or apps, you know, it's it's not something that

454
00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:05,519
you have to completely throw away. We especially if you

455
00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:07,799
are wanting to be on iOS or Android, then we

456
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,000
do what's called Maui embedding, so you can actually bring

457
00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:13,480
all your UI and all of the UI from the

458
00:24:13,519 --> 00:24:16,359
Maui world into an no platformat.

459
00:24:15,799 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: When that make it bigger and heavier than just the

460
00:24:18,519 --> 00:24:20,920
Maui app by itself jero, So you'd have to have

461
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,759
a reason to do that.

462
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, so not really the thing is that so when

463
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,319
you talk, when you're looking at Maui and and you

464
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,759
know the differences in technical architecture that you have between

465
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,839
actual Maui and then and you know the you have

466
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,039
to split that into two pieces. At least Maui is

467
00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:41,279
actually the UI parts and then the underlying dot net

468
00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:45,279
bindings that provide the access to the underlying platform. And

469
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,319
what we what we know does is that it sits

470
00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:51,960
on top of that second part. So in effect, what

471
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,920
you have is that when you when you use you know,

472
00:24:54,559 --> 00:24:57,200
you don't have the Maui parts, who know, and then

473
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,400
you just have the uh, you know parts are there

474
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,079
that replaced the Maui side. Now, of course, if you're

475
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,160
start to use Maui em bitdding, then you get to

476
00:25:05,279 --> 00:25:08,880
pull in Maui the actual Maui UI bits. But if

477
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,799
you don't, then it's pretty much the same infrastructure in

478
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,960
terms of you know, your one replaces the other and

479
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,000
we sit on top of that net on both sides.

480
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: Now, my favorite stack is Maui Blazer Hybrid, So I

481
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,839
get to write my code in Blazer and I get

482
00:25:24,839 --> 00:25:29,079
to use the htm olt Blazer razor markup what what

483
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,039
is Zuno are going to offer me?

484
00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 4: It's the same story. So essentially you know, we love

485
00:25:34,079 --> 00:25:36,480
all types of web because again that's what's you know,

486
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,039
ubiquitous once everywhere on every browser. And it's not just

487
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,160
laser like. You can think of your Angular or react

488
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,480
or view or any other JavaScript investments. So same story.

489
00:25:46,599 --> 00:25:50,599
MAUI has a you know, Blazer WebView. We have a

490
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,640
WebView too, which is essentially the same one that you

491
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,039
know Edge uses on Windows, So same exact WebView. It's

492
00:25:57,039 --> 00:26:00,400
an abstraction that is smart to realize what from that

493
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,480
you're running on gives you the corresponding web view of

494
00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:06,599
that browser on that platform. And yeah, you can happily

495
00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:08,720
render all types of WebUI very cool.

496
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: The other stack that comes up now and again is Avalonia. Right,

497
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,960
I don't know where you guys see Avalonia fitting this equation.

498
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, Avalonia is a is a fierce contender on our side,

499
00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:21,440
and it's a it's a it's always amazing to have competition.

500
00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 2: Uh.

501
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,599
Speaker 3: You know, Uh, Avalonia is on the WPF stack. So

502
00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:28,559
if if people are developing WPF apps, you know they're

503
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,880
the target is most of the time. Avalonia. We also

504
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,599
have that support. You know, we're targetly thinking pretty much

505
00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:40,079
the same targets. Uh, what way we make a difference

506
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,000
for ourselves is the vertical integration. So we're not just

507
00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:47,400
the UIRE framework. We're a platform, so we're providing tooling,

508
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:54,519
we're providing additional extensions for navigations, We're providing different pieces

509
00:26:54,559 --> 00:26:59,480
for now with with AI that we are egically vertically integrating.

510
00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:02,720
You know, for instance, we have the docs m c P.

511
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,279
That's the that's our tooling that allows for enhancing uh uh,

512
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,559
the the the app generation. We also have an app

513
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:16,079
m c P, which is pretty much an equivalent of uh,

514
00:27:16,319 --> 00:27:19,680
you know, being being able to give eisenhands to an app,

515
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,240
to to an agent's to to to uh uh you

516
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,039
interact with an app right the For us, it's it's

517
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:29,960
are we're at platform, We're not at framework. We're trying

518
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,880
to be bigger than that and make sure that we

519
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,599
integrate uh from top to bottom, and that's where we

520
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,839
dofferentiate the most uh in that respect.

521
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 2: Well, why don't we drag it to this platform store.

522
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,559
Before we do that, let's take this brief break.

523
00:27:44,759 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: Did you know that you can work with a w

524
00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:50,039
S directly from your I d E. A w S

525
00:27:50,079 --> 00:27:54,279
provides toolkits for visual studio visual studio code and jet

526
00:27:54,319 --> 00:27:57,839
Brains Rider. Learn more at a w S dot Amazon

527
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,279
dot Com, slash Net, slash.

528
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: Tools, and we're back. It's dotn Rocks Amateurd Campbell. Let's

529
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,519
call Franklin Yo. Talking to Jerome and Sam from UNO.

530
00:28:10,799 --> 00:28:14,880
A bit about the platform studio. Is that what you're

531
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:15,480
calling it now?

532
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah?

533
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 3: No platform studio. It's on a platform studio, yes.

534
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,839
Speaker 2: So what's platform studio again?

535
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,319
Speaker 4: I can try here first. So UNO platform is the

536
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,279
open source tack that's the entire vertical stack that Jerome

537
00:28:29,319 --> 00:28:33,640
talked about. It's not just about UI and we all

538
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,119
run on top of dot net, but you know it's

539
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,960
meant for flexibility for devs. So right out of the

540
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,200
gate when you are building a cross platform app, you

541
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,680
have some choices to make sure you can go with

542
00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:49,160
native UI like you know on IOSR Android. But we

543
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,039
are also big fans of Skia. The s gear sharpened

544
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:56,359
rendering is extremely fast compared to everything else and gives

545
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,799
us one unified UI pipeline that works and looks ex

546
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,480
exactly the same everywhere. So we are big fans of that.

547
00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:06,200
But it's also about extensions and tooling and theming and

548
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,839
all types of things that you know you know, a

549
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,319
dot ne developer who wants to write cross platform app

550
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,079
needs to have that's all done. And that's kind of

551
00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:16,599
what we have been doing for you know, fifteen years now.

552
00:29:17,039 --> 00:29:20,200
But on top of UNA Platform, which is our stack,

553
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,559
we have built up UNA Platform Studio that is really

554
00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:26,920
meant to elevate the developer experiences, especially if you're an

555
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,000
enterprise and you care about productivity. That is, you know,

556
00:29:31,039 --> 00:29:33,559
trying to bring in the pieces that you might find

557
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,400
missing in other dot net stacks that you know, augments,

558
00:29:37,839 --> 00:29:40,799
how quickly you work. We are you know, big fans

559
00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:44,559
of talking about the inner dev loop, like how quickly

560
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,880
can you make a change and see it in a

561
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,079
running app? Is it you know, I have to go

562
00:29:49,119 --> 00:29:52,359
get coffee because my bill takes you know a long time,

563
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,759
or I need to deploy to your device versus you know,

564
00:29:54,839 --> 00:29:58,400
really really quick. So that's where UNA Platform Studio shines,

565
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,880
and it's got you know, four or five foundational things

566
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,160
that we bring to the table. Uh. You know, we

567
00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:07,000
you know, support developers as you're building up on you know,

568
00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:09,559
the open source stack. We have get have issues, we

569
00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:12,799
have support, but NO Platform Studio is really meant for

570
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,880
those professional developers.

571
00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:17,799
Speaker 3: Okay, and instead of our studio, we're providing all sorts

572
00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:21,759
of pieces. So the biggest one is is hot design.

573
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,240
So our future, which is which is allowing for designing

574
00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:29,440
an app that runs, so trying to not have the

575
00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:32,559
you know, the pitfalls of the original designers that were

576
00:30:32,599 --> 00:30:35,640
that were designing on you just off of the markup

577
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,559
that is there, but just going to the app, seeing

578
00:30:39,559 --> 00:30:42,200
a page and then hitting the design button and design

579
00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:45,720
the app as it runs, so that that gives all

580
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:48,880
sorts of cool things like being able to see all

581
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,000
your custom controls or your external controls, like for instance,

582
00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:54,400
you have a chart control, any kind of control, you

583
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,640
put that in and it will just work, which is

584
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,599
not something that that standard designers are are able to do.

585
00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:01,559
We're we're sitting on top of hot reload to be

586
00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:04,200
able to do this. So it makes it pretty nice

587
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,519
to work with. And your hot reloads has been that

588
00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:11,000
key component that makes everything work, and it's improved very

589
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:13,720
significantly over the past few years.

590
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:15,519
Speaker 1: It's not perfect, even in Blazer.

591
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,079
Speaker 3: No, no, it's not.

592
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,759
Speaker 1: Sometimes you're waiting minutes and you just say screw it

593
00:31:19,799 --> 00:31:21,039
and I'm going to restart my app.

594
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,839
Speaker 2: You should have reached its rebuilt, right.

595
00:31:23,079 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's I call it a marketing problem. Had they

596
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:38,200
just called it lukewarm reload, then or expectations.

597
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: Are or at least they should, you know, give you

598
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,039
a guess as to how long it's going to take.

599
00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:39,759
You know, if it's going to take me five minutes,

600
00:31:39,799 --> 00:31:40,960
I'm not going to push some button.

601
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,559
Speaker 3: It's changed quite a bit, you know, the last version,

602
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,039
specifically in twenty twenty six, there's something that mystuft that

603
00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:48,640
has changed where you know, the previous version of Visual Studio,

604
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,720
where you know, they pretty much had the issue of

605
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,960
they were starting the hot reload building once you started

606
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,480
the app. Now what they do is that they reuse

607
00:31:57,839 --> 00:31:59,720
the bill that they made to make the app and

608
00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:02,640
then start from there. So that means that that waiting

609
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,319
for a few minutes to get something that actually builds

610
00:32:05,559 --> 00:32:07,759
is supposed to be gone, and it mostly is. And

611
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,640
that's making for a very big difference in behavior.

612
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, truth be it told, I haven't tried it with

613
00:32:12,599 --> 00:32:15,319
twenty twenty six. I'm still developing for my customers in

614
00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:18,920
twenty twenty two, but that should change soon. Yeah, I'm

615
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:19,680
looking forward to that.

616
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,759
Speaker 4: I mean, the to Gerome's point, it's a big engineering

617
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:25,880
problem actually behind the scenes to make everything work. Like sure,

618
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,200
you're on a screen and you're changing up UI, but

619
00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:31,279
the moment you change up more foundational pieces about the

620
00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:34,599
data context and other things that that piece of UI need.

621
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,960
So you're looking at a lot behind the scenes. So yeah,

622
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:41,359
to Jerome's point, we have tried to perfect that quite

623
00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:44,960
a bit with hot reload. But you know, I'm you know,

624
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,640
I love heart design because again for those of us

625
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,079
who come from the Windows Forms world, the DOUBLEPF world,

626
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,319
and we look at you know, so many hundreds of

627
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,400
you know, getub issues and threads where people want that

628
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,839
same experience. Never had it in zamorin zamine forums or

629
00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:05,799
MAUI because it's a it's a big engineering investment to

630
00:33:05,839 --> 00:33:08,200
build that, and even if you do build it, there

631
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,160
always remains a gap. And there are other things that

632
00:33:11,599 --> 00:33:14,680
are you know, in the vicinity, things like live preview.

633
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,640
You can you know, do a hot restart when your

634
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,599
app is running on a phone or tablet, but that

635
00:33:20,759 --> 00:33:24,000
gap between design time and run time is always there.

636
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,799
You're usually dealing with like fake data. So our approach

637
00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:30,599
has been to say, you know, your app doesn't stop

638
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,240
running right, So your running app becomes your design surface.

639
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,119
So we essentially suspend the app and we open it

640
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,960
up in a mode in which you can tweak the UI.

641
00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:43,000
We give you a toolbox of all the UI that

642
00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:46,039
you can drag and drop. You know, Zamal apps are

643
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,599
known for having, you know, complex visual trees. That's how

644
00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:53,319
enterprise you know, complex apps work, so full visibility as

645
00:33:53,319 --> 00:33:56,519
to what the parent child relationship, where exactly is that

646
00:33:56,559 --> 00:33:59,200
piece of UI that you are tweaking, and then being

647
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,079
able to change all of the properties you know on

648
00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:04,599
the fly. But then the key piece for us is

649
00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:07,200
something we call the dev server. Is while you're doing

650
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,519
all of that fun stuff, you can still interact with

651
00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:13,599
the app on the design surface. But once you're happy

652
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:16,440
with your EUI tweaks, you can come back to a

653
00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:20,119
regular running app and all of your code changes just

654
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,719
make it back to your ID, so the ID and

655
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,159
the design surface always remain insane.

656
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: So you you mentioned contextual AI tooling, is that using

657
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,920
the MCP specifically so that you really never have to

658
00:34:34,079 --> 00:34:36,199
develop UI. You can just say, hey, build me a

659
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,159
form that takes these models and saves them to a

660
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,360
data base or whatever.

661
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 4: Jerome already started talking about it, and you know, we

662
00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:47,519
have been having a lot of fun off lates. So

663
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,800
here's what we announced actually going with dot ne conf

664
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,360
in twenty twenty five. A lot of updates to you know,

665
00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:59,039
our tooling that bring in contextual AI, and updates to

666
00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:01,440
a platform studio which is now a two point zero,

667
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,760
So a couple of key foundational things in here. When

668
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,519
we look at AI today, it's amazing what most of

669
00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:11,639
the large language models can do, especially with coding. And again,

670
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,039
like our experiences are different, like GPTs or sonnets or Gemini,

671
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:19,079
whatever is that that you want to choose. We want

672
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:22,239
to be agnostic to the OS, to the ID and

673
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,320
the AI agent that you're using, because again, everyone bring

674
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,719
your own tools. So we are big fans of Model

675
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,079
context Protocol. And you know Jeral was talking about how

676
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:33,800
this whole thing is about a year old. It shows

677
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,559
the need that Anthropic started something and then everybody is

678
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,440
wanting to perfect this because everyone wants that standard. Everyone

679
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,559
sees the need. So this as of now is the

680
00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:47,960
most flexible way for AI agents and models to talk

681
00:35:48,039 --> 00:35:51,159
to somebody else who knows what they're talking about and

682
00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:54,800
not just hallucinate and guess all over the place, you know,

683
00:35:55,199 --> 00:35:59,119
not dealing with timestamp knowledge documentation that is old. We want,

684
00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:02,039
you know, the latest thing, greatest things, and most importantly,

685
00:36:02,119 --> 00:36:04,880
we want context of what you are doing. Sure you

686
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,840
can look up docs as an LLM, but while your

687
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,880
app is running, what's my visual tree?

688
00:36:10,039 --> 00:36:10,159
Speaker 2: Like?

689
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 4: Can you actually see what I'm building? Can you click

690
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,880
on a button? Can you paste a piece of text

691
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,239
in here? Those are the things that are really hard

692
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,000
to do and without those, you know, we developers sometimes

693
00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:24,119
don't have as much confidence in some of the AI tools.

694
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,800
So we have written up quite a bit of MCP tooling.

695
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:31,639
This is all Jerome and the engineering team here. Two

696
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,000
MCP servers. One is kind of what we call una

697
00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:38,639
platform remote MCP or just MCP, and then there's an

698
00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:42,320
app MCP. So the remote MCP is meant to bring

699
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,559
the context of all of our docs and how you

700
00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:49,039
fetch you know, things about a certain topic, like tell

701
00:36:49,079 --> 00:36:51,480
me about mvux and it, you know, looks up all

702
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,199
of our docks and tells you all the right things,

703
00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:56,559
or bring me a certain page that talks about just

704
00:36:56,599 --> 00:36:58,639
one particular piece of UI. So we do all of

705
00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:01,320
that and we kind of pry the AI agents to say,

706
00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:03,880
you know, here you have all of this tool please

707
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,360
stop guessing, use the tools. So how you you know,

708
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,880
set up a new app just by you know, the

709
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,159
best practices.

710
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:11,199
Speaker 2: And all of that.

711
00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 4: So that's all the app you know, or the platform MCP,

712
00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:16,679
and then the app MCP comes in. Once your app

713
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,800
is running, where are all my target frameworks? Can you

714
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,159
see my app? Can you see my UI? Can you

715
00:37:23,199 --> 00:37:26,199
click on this? Does my navigation work? And you know,

716
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,000
does my data context work on that AI? So two

717
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,360
full blown MCP servers that are very easy to work

718
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,880
with on whichever be of your ide of your choice

719
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,840
or AI agent you know, surface of your choice. So

720
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:40,559
full flexus.

721
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,559
Speaker 1: So in a sense, could you do testing with the

722
00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:45,559
app MCP? It sounds less. That's what you're really doing

723
00:37:45,679 --> 00:37:48,440
is testing all the That's what it is endploy to

724
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:49,199
make sure they're working.

725
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 3: So it's actually two scenarios. The there's the just uh,

726
00:37:53,039 --> 00:37:55,840
you know, replace the developer in a sense that make

727
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,599
me my feature. But the model doesn't see exactly what

728
00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:01,920
it's doing. So it's generating code but it doesn't exactly

729
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,360
know what it's doing. So the idea is that the

730
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:06,639
model is going to generate that code, build a code,

731
00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:09,039
and then run the code. And then after that, you know,

732
00:38:09,159 --> 00:38:11,199
if you don't give it a way to do anything else,

733
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,239
then it will stop. It will just look at the logs.

734
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,679
And that's it. What we're bringing with this is the

735
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,880
ability for the for the model to see what it's

736
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,639
actually doing. So if it's developed a page navigation or

737
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,119
form or anything like that, it will be able to

738
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,639
go and go and about and click around, you know,

739
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,760
test the validation, see that navigation is working properly, things

740
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,559
like that, and then ensure that at the end, you know,

741
00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:37,599
it's actually done the right thing. So if it doesn't

742
00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:40,119
behave the right way, it will stop the app or

743
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,239
just use hot reload. You know, it can do use

744
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,360
hot reload as well. That's the that's the cool thing.

745
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,920
Make the modifications iterate again, test again, and then if

746
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,599
it's done pretty much like what the developer would do,

747
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,239
it's you know, it's testing the same way we're when

748
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,280
we're developing, well launching the app. See if it actually

749
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,760
does what we think it should do. Then if it doesn't,

750
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,360
we start again and then we loop. That way is

751
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,559
doing the same thing, and that's the developer flow. Now

752
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:07,239
there's a second flow, which is actual UI testing in

753
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,760
the same way that you have Playwright doing that. So

754
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,440
you have the MCP for play right that does that

755
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,960
the exact same way, except that it's against HTML. But

756
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,239
our app MP's pretty much be heaving the same way.

757
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,280
It's providing the same kind of tools you know, to type, click,

758
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:25,880
you know, take screenshot, take snapshot, things like that.

759
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:28,159
Speaker 1: Great for generating documentation.

760
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,599
Speaker 3: Exactly, yes, exactly. So it's a it can be used

761
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,559
either way. You can be full UI testing QA validation anyway,

762
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,920
or it just can be replicate the developer behavior.

763
00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: That's cool. So just in general I want to reiterate

764
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,280
this that you can bring your own agent here. Right,

765
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,840
you're not replacing an agent. You're not replacing GitHub Copilot

766
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,679
or you know, the stuff that's built into any of

767
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,400
these IDEs. What you are doing is allowing that agent

768
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,400
to access your MCP. So now you can ask the

769
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,880
agent to you know, questions about your app or about

770
00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:04,239
you know, what the MCP specialty is, the documentation for example.

771
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 2: That's correct.

772
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I find there's confusion there.

773
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 4: Yes, you're right, but there are you know, more things

774
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,159
we can do. You have full flexibility with the you

775
00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:17,719
know agentic workflows, so you you know, not too developers

776
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,239
do the exact same thing or their workflow, so you know,

777
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,599
start this up however you want. So if you want

778
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,239
just to start from a CLI, because you know, people

779
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,159
who use Cloud are big fans of you know, that

780
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,119
CLI experience or codecs, you want to start up everything

781
00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:36,039
and then you want to you know, you know, build

782
00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:39,000
up your dream app. You create a brief of what

783
00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:40,840
your app needs to be, and then you hand it

784
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,280
off to the agents to go actually build the app.

785
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,000
So that's a flow. A lot of dotinent developers are

786
00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:49,400
just used to maybe visual Studio file new or vs

787
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,639
code build me a new app. In that case, you

788
00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:54,280
have an empty app. But then you do have copilot.

789
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,679
You do have you know, Cloud inside of vs code

790
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,360
or you know, any other AI agent that you can

791
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,840
think of that you know, Copilot will call into those

792
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,679
other models and there you have the flexibility of you know,

793
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,480
choosing whichever AI model that works the best for you

794
00:41:09,639 --> 00:41:13,079
or our agent, and then you start. However you are

795
00:41:13,159 --> 00:41:16,360
like I, you know, start from an empty app and

796
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,559
then I start building up the UI. But if you

797
00:41:18,639 --> 00:41:21,000
want to have the agent create the app in the

798
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:22,800
first place. Then that's that's fine too.

799
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: So let's talk about greenfield versus brown field apps. Where

800
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,320
do you think who know shines.

801
00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:34,679
Speaker 3: It's actually both? So one one one key one key example. Uh,

802
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,559
you know we've been talking about that those migration scenarios

803
00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:40,239
and and you were mentioning, you know, all the apps

804
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,760
that dene migration of net six four six two. What

805
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,840
we've been trying is experiment with migration migration paths from

806
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,239
from previous apps and models are pretty good at mapping

807
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,719
and translating. And if you think about it, you know,

808
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,280
what's translating from English to French that's different from translating

809
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,639
from uh, you know, uh WPF to when you are

810
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,920
it's pretty much it's close. Let's say it's it's the

811
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,400
English from England friend, and you know, and the difference

812
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,760
with the English from the US. You know, it's close,

813
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,519
but not exactly. It's their variants. You need to translate

814
00:42:17,519 --> 00:42:20,239
a few things, but it's translation pretty much to US.

815
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,639
So so we've been we've been testing that out and

816
00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:26,920
and uh, we've we've migrated a few, migrated a few apps,

817
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,000
you know, one from w PF that you know, there

818
00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:33,639
was a kind of a notepad made made by potherot

819
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,559
so it made a notepad app h a few years back,

820
00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:39,519
and we just took that up and asked it as

821
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:42,000
the model just translate that app from one to the other.

822
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:44,800
So that that's clearly you know, it's more than brown field,

823
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:49,679
it's just no field. So we're just yeah, so so

824
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,880
we're just migrating from one to the other. And and

825
00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:54,679
the model is able to you know, assisted by our

826
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,880
our docs mcp that that takes our documentation to the latest,

827
00:42:58,119 --> 00:43:01,000
assisted by Microsoft docs as well as sted by all

828
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,719
sorts of m cps that you can find that that

829
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,119
can make it understand the code bays properly. Then you

830
00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:09,519
can migrate from one to the other. So so that's

831
00:43:09,559 --> 00:43:12,079
the that's the brownish field, and that that you can

832
00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:14,119
get and further new apps. But it's pretty much the

833
00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:16,760
same way. I mean, uh, you can create new apps

834
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,480
from blank completely or from our wizard. We have just

835
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,960
a few set of scenarios that get there or just

836
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,039
start for something else. You know, you have samples that

837
00:43:25,039 --> 00:43:27,519
are there. You just ask the model to refractor the

838
00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:30,679
app and and make it yours pretty much, and and

839
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,679
that that can work as well in that context. Uh,

840
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,320
it's it's amazing to see the models being able to

841
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,559
grasp deeply the apps that that we're giving them to

842
00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:43,320
be able to uh to manipulate them and and and

843
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,320
do the right things. Uh, not from the get go,

844
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,119
but almost. You know, you still have to be there

845
00:43:49,159 --> 00:43:51,800
to to guide a little bit. But it's it's able

846
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:52,719
to understand quite a bit.

847
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 2: Trying to envision a case where you might want to

848
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,400
introduce another m c P, like you bring in a

849
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,639
library or something that comes its own MCP as well,

850
00:44:02,559 --> 00:44:05,559
and you could just add it to the equation like

851
00:44:05,679 --> 00:44:10,239
you're you're already running your app MCP and your platform

852
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,119
MCP separately. Just I'm just thinking through, like what's the

853
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:16,360
pattern here long term.

854
00:44:16,199 --> 00:44:17,159
Speaker 3: For more mcps?

855
00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 2: You mean, do we need more mcps or do just

856
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,639
expect the agents to be able to interpret the code

857
00:44:21,639 --> 00:44:23,239
that already exists and be able to figure out what

858
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,239
to do from there.

859
00:44:24,079 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 3: There are two sides from this, you know, thinking about it,

860
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,039
and it's I mean, this is all fair and new.

861
00:44:29,039 --> 00:44:31,159
We were talking about mcps and everything like that, you know,

862
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,159
I remember in the MVP some mean we were talking

863
00:44:33,159 --> 00:44:35,320
about mcps that will all the rangel you know, we

864
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:36,840
need to do something about it, and then just six

865
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,519
months later we have something everyone is having. It's always

866
00:44:40,199 --> 00:44:42,880
the own MCP for doing things like that. But I

867
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,920
see mcps are as two things that kind of you know,

868
00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:50,920
extend models in some way. The first one is knowledge,

869
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,239
because the cutoff of the knowledge from the model is

870
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,199
not you know, it's what it is. And then it's

871
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,280
always going to stale in the same way that once

872
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,599
you write documentation it's out of date. You know, it's

873
00:45:00,639 --> 00:45:02,400
pretty much in the same way that you can think

874
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,280
about it. So giving it access to something that's more

875
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,360
recent and probably dynamic in a sense that that's probably best.

876
00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:11,519
But the second thing is your model cannot do anything

877
00:45:11,559 --> 00:45:14,280
on its own. So you know, with our platform MCP

878
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,400
app MCP giving access to the app is one thing,

879
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,360
but can be something like you know, manipulating Azure, manipulating uh,

880
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,000
you know, some database in the back or some payment

881
00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:25,119
system and third party tools that you would access in

882
00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:28,599
some other way. So with security in mind, you know,

883
00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:31,400
if you don't want the model to delete your your

884
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,840
your old production as a result, but still there's things

885
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,840
like that that that will be you know. That's the

886
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,880
two aspects that I do see of importance for models

887
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:40,880
that don't know everything.

888
00:45:41,079 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: I can give you my experience with third party tools

889
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,800
and the agents. Generally, it's pretty good at going out

890
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,519
on the Internet and finding the documentation for a third

891
00:45:50,599 --> 00:45:54,320
party control or whatever and being able to configure it

892
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,760
and use it correctly. You know, if I say I

893
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,280
want to use this particular control to do something, pretty

894
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,079
good about going out finding the documentation even though there's

895
00:46:03,079 --> 00:46:07,119
no MCP for it. You know, it's it's Internet information.

896
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,280
It's out there. So that's been my experience.

897
00:46:10,559 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 4: It is, and you know, these experiences can be a

898
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,800
little different, and models are getting smarter. There are times

899
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,119
when even though you have all of these mcps wired up,

900
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,960
it may choose not to you know, invoke so sometimes,

901
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,360
like we joke that you always got to be polite

902
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,239
with the AI agency, got to say, hey, look, you

903
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,519
do have those tools, please use them because sometimes they

904
00:46:34,559 --> 00:46:38,119
will choose not to. So, yeah, they will, you know,

905
00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:40,800
they can be doing some cashing. They will pull up docs,

906
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,679
but so docs are not you know, that's the you know,

907
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,320
low hanging fruit. Yes, you can do an internet search

908
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,800
and bring the docs, but what if you needed more,

909
00:46:50,159 --> 00:46:52,599
what if you needed those you know, unique use cases

910
00:46:52,679 --> 00:46:56,119
about changing up one thing in your UI that unless

911
00:46:56,119 --> 00:46:58,559
you read through a lot of forums, you just don't know.

912
00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:02,320
And unless you have that deep platform expertise, you just

913
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,559
don't know. And to your own's point, like if you

914
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,840
really wanted to tell a model like I need you

915
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,000
to run this app and take five screenshots and compare,

916
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,599
it just doesn't know how to do some of those

917
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:18,920
actions right right, So again, like mcps are shining, and

918
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,920
you know, still early days we are seeing multiple, you know,

919
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,639
registries come up. So you know, people have it very

920
00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:29,639
easily from whatever ideas that you have as your choice

921
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,440
to bring in the mcps. And again you can check

922
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,480
things on and off. So just like you know, you

923
00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:38,920
have different workloads and ways of working with the Vision studio,

924
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,079
maybe when you're doing Azure development or when you're doing development,

925
00:47:43,159 --> 00:47:45,719
you don't need the other mcps, so in asients can

926
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:47,239
be smart to turn things on and off.

927
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,119
Speaker 2: I certainly talk to folks who are getting into the

928
00:47:49,199 --> 00:47:52,760
mindset of there's a deployment MCP that follows the guidelines

929
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,039
of our organization and points to this is our cloud,

930
00:47:56,119 --> 00:47:59,880
this is our pre prod prod QA configuration. Like they're

931
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,800
they're trying to get into consistent behavior with that and

932
00:48:03,159 --> 00:48:05,079
using the MCP, I guess is a way to box

933
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,559
any given agent unto you must follow my policies essentially.

934
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 3: Absolutely, this is a given access to the world. You

935
00:48:13,559 --> 00:48:15,000
scope it to what it can.

936
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: Do because the theory you would be able to do

937
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,800
that with a prompt, but we're finding that they don't

938
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,079
always follow the prompts.

939
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true, that's completely true.

940
00:48:23,519 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 4: And it takes a lot to write those prompts. So yeah,

941
00:48:26,039 --> 00:48:29,760
we are fans of instructions, you know, copilot instructions or

942
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,320
agents MD, and those are the guard rails, but it

943
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,159
takes a long time to write up those guardrails, those

944
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:38,599
system prompts to you know, make sure they stay on course.

945
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,960
So that's where mcps kind of bring all of that

946
00:48:41,199 --> 00:48:43,119
from the get go because it's already wired.

947
00:48:43,679 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: So it happened again, Richard, we turned a perfectly saying

948
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,880
talk about UNO into an AI show.

949
00:48:50,039 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 3: Well there, Well, I can give you some about that.

950
00:48:54,199 --> 00:48:56,280
We did started it. But one of the things that

951
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,800
were I think we have talked about that one. So

952
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,599
one of the m cps that exist, or even no

953
00:49:00,679 --> 00:49:03,400
MCP at all, is the ability for the for the

954
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,960
models to be able to generate u I properly, but

955
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,360
from an image, and that's something that's that's quite amazing.

956
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:10,760
It understands quite a few things.

957
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 2: Well, you guys always said that Sigma interface that I

958
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,400
thought was wildly cool.

959
00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:15,079
Speaker 3: Yeah it is.

960
00:49:15,679 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, we still still do. It's it's a design to code,

961
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,400
so you can start from a Pigma design and you know,

962
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,199
we generate C sharpened ZAMO. And now to to Jerome's point,

963
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,519
now you've got Figma m CPS to bring over that

964
00:49:28,599 --> 00:49:31,360
thing to our MCPS, so agents have all of that

965
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:34,039
deep knowledge as to how you build your UI.

966
00:49:34,199 --> 00:49:37,079
Speaker 1: That's cool, Mike, and I said this before on the show,

967
00:49:37,079 --> 00:49:41,039
but my only experience with Figma it hard coded pixel

968
00:49:41,119 --> 00:49:45,360
wits and stuff like that. It did not generate responsive CSS,

969
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,599
and it probably was my fault. I probably didn't have

970
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:49,159
a setting somewhere correctly.

971
00:49:49,199 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 4: But Figma is not not for kids. It's very busy,

972
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,679
it's for sure. It's it's for designers who know.

973
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: Goog Goog got Google.

974
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,639
Speaker 3: It's changed quite a bit. You get models are are

975
00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:06,760
pretty good. You know, the bigger ones, like the premium

976
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,880
ones like gpt E T five or you know Sonnet

977
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,119
or others and Jimini three to the most important extent

978
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,440
you give you give it an image and it will

979
00:50:16,119 --> 00:50:19,719
figure out how the structure is built. You give something

980
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,800
to you that's pretty close to your to the original, uh,

981
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,159
you know, and and fig I is able to give

982
00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:29,639
a the internal structure of what that design is. And

983
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:33,079
then if you if if the the agent is able

984
00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:35,440
to mix both, it's able to figure out you know,

985
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,960
the colors, the structure, the flow and everything like that

986
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,400
and just generate in our case, some exammle that do

987
00:50:40,519 --> 00:50:42,880
make that does make sense in a in a very

988
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:43,440
fast way.

989
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 1: Uh.

990
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:47,119
Speaker 3: And you know, you know, if your design just moves up,

991
00:50:47,199 --> 00:50:49,400
you know, give it another image and it will figure

992
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,360
out what's to change and then then adjusted visually. It's

993
00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:55,400
it's remarkable, you know. As a result, it.

994
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 2: Is how far are we from a tool, you know,

995
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,599
harnesses something like play right that navigates through an old

996
00:51:01,679 --> 00:51:05,760
asp dot net web forms app screen shotting along the

997
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,519
way and then feed those screenshots to this tool to

998
00:51:09,599 --> 00:51:11,360
spit out simuno app.

999
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it's just the single from to say,

1000
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,920
just play right you take the I was talking about

1001
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,400
the WPF thing, that migration that we did we give it.

1002
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,760
You know, we said to the AI, this is the

1003
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:29,079
folder that that contains the previous app. Make it, you know, translated,

1004
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,119
and make it run inside of that all the folder

1005
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,559
that contains the app. Right, there's no difference, you know

1006
00:51:34,599 --> 00:51:36,599
if you if you do the same thing, you could say, well,

1007
00:51:36,639 --> 00:51:38,400
I'm giving you a ur l use a prey rite

1008
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,599
m CP to figure out what the website is doing.

1009
00:51:41,639 --> 00:51:45,119
Make it again, you know in my app. It's that

1010
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,880
simple in a sense. You know, it might not be

1011
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,239
able to figure out all the business roles, but because

1012
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,119
you know, it's not able to figure out everything, but

1013
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,679
to a certain extents, it's able to figure out at

1014
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,000
least what the visible behavior of of the app and

1015
00:51:58,039 --> 00:52:00,760
replicate something that that can be funnctional for sure.

1016
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 4: So to that point, Richard, we have been having. You know,

1017
00:52:04,519 --> 00:52:06,519
I have not had this much fun and that I've

1018
00:52:06,559 --> 00:52:08,360
had in the last one month. And I have not

1019
00:52:08,519 --> 00:52:11,239
written a single line of ZAMO because I feel like

1020
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:12,719
I don't need to anymore.

1021
00:52:13,679 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 2: So the God.

1022
00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 4: I love my but sure it gets a little bit.

1023
00:52:20,599 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 2: Does love you XML?

1024
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,639
Speaker 3: That's for sure? And then do love XML? That's an

1025
00:52:26,679 --> 00:52:29,519
important thing, you know, They they do they understand the

1026
00:52:29,519 --> 00:52:31,920
beginning and the end. It's better than Jason or anything

1027
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,480
like that. It's so it's pretty cool what they do.

1028
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 1: So one after all, right, step one put down the

1029
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:39,960
crack pipe.

1030
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:46,039
Speaker 3: XML for models. It's something that is better understood, uh

1031
00:52:46,119 --> 00:52:49,320
than Jason or anything else. And and the main thing

1032
00:52:49,599 --> 00:52:52,119
is that the tag at the beginning and the end

1033
00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:56,559
give context into what's before and after, which is very

1034
00:52:56,559 --> 00:52:57,440
different from Carlie.

1035
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: Branches don't do that.

1036
00:52:58,599 --> 00:53:02,039
Speaker 3: No, they don't. For so it has to go backtrack

1037
00:53:02,079 --> 00:53:04,760
and everything. You know, and even if you're writing documentation

1038
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:06,920
with headers and everything like that, it's not the same.

1039
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,960
You will see that major prompts that have been developed

1040
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:14,000
by teams are using kind of fake XML syntax when

1041
00:53:14,039 --> 00:53:17,679
they they make sections of the prompts based off XML

1042
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,960
to say this is the beginning of your personality. This

1043
00:53:21,039 --> 00:53:23,840
is the beginning of beginning and then of personality beginning

1044
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,320
and end of restrictions and output and everything like that.

1045
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:32,159
So in a sense for us, because Examal's XML, it

1046
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,280
kind of makes sense for understanding that context.

1047
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: It's if you think about it, HTML is XML.

1048
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 4: It is it is it is it is. Yeah, but

1049
00:53:42,079 --> 00:53:45,519
you know copilot or Claude or Sonnet. They all do

1050
00:53:45,559 --> 00:53:49,000
a phenomenal job at understanding this. So you know, in

1051
00:53:49,039 --> 00:53:50,960
the last one month or so, we have had a

1052
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,440
few you know, we have thrown it up to the

1053
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,199
developer community, like DEF two is a vibrant community. We

1054
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,519
you know, threw up a challenge to say, show us

1055
00:53:57,519 --> 00:54:00,280
what you can build. Bring your creativity. We have twelve

1056
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,199
days of Christmas because that's the season. Let's build some

1057
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,159
amazing apps. And it's mind blowing to see what we

1058
00:54:06,199 --> 00:54:12,519
can build, you know, like a matrix reign of you know,

1059
00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:16,559
digital numbers, win amp uh, you know our you know,

1060
00:54:16,599 --> 00:54:18,639
our thing that we grew up with with skins and

1061
00:54:18,679 --> 00:54:20,840
so on, which well, you know, any of those will

1062
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,239
take like weeks and weeks to get the ZAMO right.

1063
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,239
It's a matter of minutes because you know AI again,

1064
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,840
don't trust it blindly, but you know, damn it's a

1065
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,760
good starting point to get that UI out of the door.

1066
00:54:33,079 --> 00:54:34,519
Based on a couple of prompts.

1067
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,039
Speaker 1: Okay, it's cool. Is there anything we missed, guys, anything

1068
00:54:38,079 --> 00:54:38,960
that you want to talk about.

1069
00:54:39,079 --> 00:54:42,639
Speaker 4: One last thing, and this is all the MCP stuff.

1070
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,119
This is all meant to bring more context and you know,

1071
00:54:46,159 --> 00:54:49,199
grounding to the AI agents that you are using. But

1072
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,719
what if we could do more out of the box.

1073
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,639
What if you just want to open up an empty

1074
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:57,880
platform app and not do anything else to it. Just

1075
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,920
see the running app. You you maybe you come from

1076
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:02,800
a non deav background. You just want to see the

1077
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,639
running app, and then you have an agent right there.

1078
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,400
That's something we call the heart Design agent. So heart

1079
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,360
Design again is our visual tool that lets you tweak UI.

1080
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,840
But now you just move over to one tab over.

1081
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,880
Now you have an agent running right there with your

1082
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,119
app and it works the same way across you know,

1083
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:24,360
Windows browsers and mobile. It's always there. And that has

1084
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,599
some very key features where it can generate UI. Like

1085
00:55:27,639 --> 00:55:29,239
if you are on a blank screen, you can say,

1086
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:31,679
build me the next login app, build me a next

1087
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,559
you know X or whatever it is that you're building,

1088
00:55:34,559 --> 00:55:38,280
and it'll take stabs and compared to the agents in

1089
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,519
the ide where you based on your prompt, it's going

1090
00:55:41,599 --> 00:55:44,400
to start, you know, making code changes for you. And

1091
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,800
sure you can you know, approve things a few times.

1092
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:49,360
But then what if you wanted to go back in

1093
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,880
time and say, now, what I had like five iterations

1094
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,320
back was kind of better so we kind of maintain

1095
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,599
a history off the UI, so you get to churn

1096
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,000
and churn and see what the ai is agent is generating,

1097
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,480
and then once you're happy with a particular one, then

1098
00:56:04,519 --> 00:56:07,000
you say apply. Then we're going to come in and

1099
00:56:07,119 --> 00:56:09,400
change up the zamal not just in your in a

1100
00:56:09,519 --> 00:56:11,639
running app, but all the way back to your ID.

1101
00:56:12,159 --> 00:56:14,159
So that's a hot design agent and that's something we

1102
00:56:14,199 --> 00:56:17,559
have been working on, so expect more things out of it.

1103
00:56:17,679 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: Cool, very cool.

1104
00:56:18,519 --> 00:56:21,079
Speaker 1: Well, thank you guys, it's always enlightening talking to you,

1105
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,920
and well, thank you. Yeah, congratulations on the new stuff,

1106
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,840
and everybody go check out Who Know and we'll talk

1107
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:52,480
to you next week on dot netros. Dot net Rocks

1108
00:56:52,559 --> 00:56:55,280
is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by

1109
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,320
Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production

1110
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:03,440
facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course

1111
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:07,639
in the cloud online at pwop dot com.

1112
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 5: Visit our website at d O T N E t

1113
00:57:10,199 --> 00:57:14,199
R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1114
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:18,039
mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1115
00:57:18,079 --> 00:57:21,320
back to show number one, recorded in September two.

1116
00:57:21,159 --> 00:57:24,159
Speaker 1: Thousand and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors.

1117
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,320
They keep us in business. Now go write some code.

1118
00:57:27,679 --> 00:57:28,440
See you next time.

1119
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:31,079
Speaker 2: You got Vans

1120
00:57:33,239 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: And