Speaker 1: Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in
Speaker 1: this edition is doctor Jack Hawkins. He's the chancellor of
Speaker 1: Troy University in Troy, Alabama. He also served as a
Speaker 1: US Marine Corps officer in the Vietnam War. That's where
Speaker 1: he earned a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts. Today
Speaker 1: we'll discuss why doctor Hawkins became a Marine, his service
Speaker 1: in Vietnam during one of the most volatile parts of
Speaker 1: the war, both at home and abroad, some of the
Speaker 1: most harrowing moments of the war for him, and how
Speaker 1: his work in the academic world brought him full circle
Speaker 1: back to Vietnam. Jack Hawkins was born in Alabama in
Speaker 1: March of nineteen forty five, and he has called the
Speaker 1: state home for most of his life. Hawkins says he
Speaker 1: learned hard work at a very early age.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm a native Alabamian, but the only time outside
Speaker 2: the state was during my Marine Corps service and born
Speaker 2: in Mobile, Alabama. Grew up in Alabama. I was one
Speaker 2: of four children, son of the son of the Great
Speaker 2: Depression my dad. I thought my mother was well educated
Speaker 2: because she graduated tenth grade. He graduated eighth grade, and
Speaker 2: so we learned at an early age what real work was.
Speaker 2: He would go into the woods of South Alabama and
Speaker 2: cut the trees and haul the logs, and when I
Speaker 2: was very young, he invited me. I later learned in
Speaker 2: the Marine Corps that that was a command performance, and
Speaker 2: it made me appreciate hard work. It made me appreciate
Speaker 2: stewardship because we didn't waste money.
Speaker 1: In addition to the work, I think he learned from
Speaker 1: his father. Hawkins also grew up in a community with
Speaker 1: a strong commitment to military service.
Speaker 2: Early in my life, and I was born into the
Speaker 2: latter stages of World War Two, and so during the
Speaker 2: forties and throughout the fifties early sixties, almost every man
Speaker 2: that I knew either fought in World War Two or
Speaker 2: served during that period of time, or fought in Korea
Speaker 2: or but all were military, and so the military influence
Speaker 2: was deep. I didn't quite know that what people did
Speaker 2: other than cut trees and serve the country. So my
Speaker 2: attitude was shaped at an early point.
Speaker 1: But in the Hawkins family, there wasn't just high respect
Speaker 1: for the military. There was a specific affinity for the
Speaker 1: US Marine Corps. Multiple generations of the family served in
Speaker 1: the Corps, and Hawkins vividly remembers when and why he
Speaker 1: wanted to be a marine.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when you you almost emulate what you admire.
Speaker 2: I think when my brother in law in nineteen fifty
Speaker 2: seven walked into my home as he was courting my
Speaker 2: sister and he was wearing that dress blue uniform, I
Speaker 2: fell in love with it, and so my eyes had
Speaker 2: focused on service. But just those who I respected most
Speaker 2: encouraged me to at least consider and so when I
Speaker 2: graduated high school, that was to be my course to
Speaker 2: be an enlisted marine. And I went to the recruiter.
Speaker 2: He shared with me the difference in being a PFC
Speaker 2: and being a second lieutenant. And I said, well, how
Speaker 2: do you become a second lieutenant? And he said, where
Speaker 2: you go to college. Nobody in my college family had
Speaker 2: ever gone to college, and so that was rather a
Speaker 2: new concept for me, and I checked into that, decided
Speaker 2: I would take that challenge, and that's really what led
Speaker 2: me to become a freshman in nineteen sixty three. Immediately
Speaker 2: after the first semester, I joined what's known as the
Speaker 2: Patoon Leaders Class Program Marine Corps. A lot of Marine
Speaker 2: officers come by that route, and for the next several
Speaker 2: years until I graduated, during the summers, I would go
Speaker 2: to Quantico, and so I was an enlisted man until
Speaker 2: I was commissioned in nineteen sixty seven, and so that
Speaker 2: was my goal. It probably not only influenced me to
Speaker 2: go to college, but to do the best I could
Speaker 2: while I was there, because I knew the ramifications of
Speaker 2: not doing well, and so I proudly stepped into that
Speaker 2: position of being a second lieutenant in May of nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty seven.
Speaker 1: As an enlisted man pursuing an officer's commission, Hawkins spent
Speaker 1: multiple summers in grueling training at Quantico, Virginia. He says
Speaker 1: those courses were not pleasant, but they were very important
Speaker 1: in shaping him into a leader of marines.
Speaker 2: That was an experience most of us didn't want to
Speaker 2: do again. It was challenging. You would go between the
Speaker 2: freshman and sophomore year during the summer, you would go
Speaker 2: and uh and that's a hot period of time in Quatico,
Speaker 2: as you know. And we started with about sixty officer
Speaker 2: candidates in my platoon and about half of us finished
Speaker 2: at the end of the summer. And so it was
Speaker 2: a grueling experience, but one that you know. They often
Speaker 2: say the hot of the fire, the stronger the still
Speaker 2: and either you'll be challenged and meet that challenge, or
Speaker 2: you'll succumb to it. And I was really proud because
Speaker 2: that shaped a lot of my future. As I'm sure
Speaker 2: every other successful candidate would say, the difficult part was
Speaker 2: knowing what we were going to have to do in
Speaker 2: the second summer between our junior and senior years. And
Speaker 2: when you go back knowing, you know, ignorance is bliss.
Speaker 2: And so that first summer I didn't know exactly what
Speaker 2: to anticipate or expect, but I knew going back, and
Speaker 2: so that's that the second summer was more difficult, I
Speaker 2: think than the first, simply because you knew what was coming.
Speaker 2: But that too was a challenging experience, particularly a main
Speaker 2: side in Quantico. You have where they train officers, you
Speaker 2: have what's called the hill trails, and the hill trails
Speaker 2: that was a right of departure and a right of
Speaker 2: passage because if you couldn't maneuver and make those hill trails,
Speaker 2: you probably didn't get that commission at the end of
Speaker 2: the experience. And so it was it was a challenging
Speaker 2: time physically, but it was also challenging mentally. The Marine
Speaker 2: Corps does a great job of training you. And I
Speaker 2: also will never forget the words of the drill instructors.
Speaker 2: We had drill instructors all enlisted, and they would make
Speaker 2: it very clear to you that if you couldn't survive
Speaker 2: their training and at their hands, they didn't want you
Speaker 2: leading them later. And so the whole I think the
Speaker 2: part of the philosophy was to was to wash you out,
Speaker 2: as we would say back then, and you could drop
Speaker 2: out or you could be washed out, you know. But
Speaker 2: I always felt coming out of the woods in South
Speaker 2: Alabama that it would have been a lot harder to
Speaker 2: come home a failure than to stay there and withstand
Speaker 2: what they were doing. And so but it was a wonderful,
Speaker 2: wonderful experience in my life because I reaped so many rewards.
Speaker 2: But if you asked me the question do you want
Speaker 2: to do it again? I would say no, thank you.
Speaker 1: After graduating college in nineteen sixty seven, Hawkins faced several
Speaker 1: more months of intense training before deploying to Vietnam.
Speaker 2: You know, if you went immediately after commissioning, just based
Speaker 2: on the first two summers of training. I don't think
Speaker 2: you would be nearly as prepared, but they prepared us
Speaker 2: over the next six months when we left the college
Speaker 2: and we graduated the basic school, and then they would
Speaker 2: send us to special schools. And then on April the fourth,
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight, I left Mobile, Alabama, en route to Vietnam.
Speaker 2: Actually I left a couple of days early, but I
Speaker 2: left the United States out of the Travis Air Force
Speaker 2: Base in San Francisco on the fourth day of April
Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty eight, and away I went to Vietnam
Speaker 2: by way of Okinawa.
Speaker 1: As Hawkins mentioned, he left for Vietnam on April fourth,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, the very day doctor Martin Luther King
Speaker 1: Junior was killed in Memphis. Days later, Hawkins was in Vietnam,
Speaker 1: and he says the climate, the politics, and the reality
Speaker 1: of war were all weighing heavily on his mind.
Speaker 2: Well, when we got off the plane in Dunag, we
Speaker 2: had been in Okinawa a couple of days in preparation
Speaker 2: for going into country. We arrived in dnae Uh in
Speaker 2: early April, and I stepped off the plane and the plane,
Speaker 2: of course was comfortable into one hundred and thirteen degree weather.
Speaker 2: And at that time there were a lot of troops
Speaker 2: that were being uh, that were being killed and UH.
Speaker 2: And on the runway there was a line of body bags.
Speaker 2: And so that was my first experience, you know, the
Speaker 2: exposure to Vietnam. You step off, you see the stairs,
Speaker 2: and then you see all these body bags, and then
Speaker 2: you experience the heat and the humidity and UH. And
Speaker 2: so that was it was an eye opening experience, but
Speaker 2: one you had to adjust to and and all of
Speaker 2: us did, of course, but I had kept up with UH.
Speaker 2: You know, Vietnam, I mean, Marine Corps did a good
Speaker 2: job of preparing us. UH. And that was a really
Speaker 2: period of unrest. As you may know, during UH the
Speaker 2: during nineteen sixty eight, there were UH there were demonstrations
Speaker 2: all over this country. We were in Quantico and in Washington,
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand people gathered to oppose the war. And
Speaker 2: so it made a young man think, now, what am
Speaker 2: I getting into and why am I doing this? But
Speaker 2: I think most of us who grew up watching John
Speaker 2: Wayne movies believed in the country, and we believed in
Speaker 2: what we were doing. And so I sort of side
Speaker 2: stepped in. He disbelieved for questions and stepped into what
Speaker 2: they had prepared me to do.
Speaker 1: Hawkins says, as soon as he landed, he was in
Speaker 1: the air again and on the way to his first
Speaker 1: assignment as a Marine Corps officer in Vietnam.
Speaker 2: Immediately after I arrived in Danang, they put me on
Speaker 2: a plane and flew me down to Cheu Lie. And
Speaker 2: it was from there that they put me on a
Speaker 2: helicopter and flew me up to my first duty assignment
Speaker 2: as a platoon leader. And so you had to adjust
Speaker 2: pretty quickly. And I knew that it would be a challenge,
Speaker 2: but I didn't know you know, very much about that challenge.
Speaker 2: But it didn't take long before my feet were wet
Speaker 2: and I was at least a jesting.
Speaker 1: That's doctor Jack Hawkins, Chancellor of Troy University in Alabama,
Speaker 1: who also served as a Marine Corps officer and platoon
Speaker 1: commander in Vietnam. When we come back, doctor Hawkins explains
Speaker 1: how he won the confidence of more experienced enlisted men
Speaker 1: and the dangerous work assigned to his platoon that got
Speaker 1: him wounded less than a month after arriving. I'm Greg
Speaker 1: Corumbus and this is Veterans Chronicles.
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Speaker 1: This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in
Speaker 1: this edition is doctor Jack Hawkins. He served as a
Speaker 1: US Marine Corps infantry officer in the Vietnam War. When
Speaker 1: Hawkins arrived in Vietnam in April of nineteen sixty eight,
Speaker 1: the United States was engaged in Operation Wheeler Wallowa. Hawkins
Speaker 1: explains what that mission was designed to accomplish.
Speaker 2: We were largely in a in a compound situation, and
Speaker 2: so the operations that we went on were patrols and
Speaker 2: making sure that highway was open. It was in Operation
Speaker 2: Wheeler Wallower that and that lasted for several months. And
Speaker 2: so it wasn't just one intense campaign that started here
Speaker 2: and a week later ended, uh. It was. It was
Speaker 2: more drawn out than that. We were in the quang
Speaker 2: Nam Province, which was south of the name, but it
Speaker 2: was an overall effort to rid that region of the
Speaker 2: Vietcong in the NVA, and so it would required, you know, vigilance,
Speaker 2: it required lots of air support, it required combat. Generally,
Speaker 2: it just sometimes you'd find him and most often you couldn't.
Speaker 2: That was one of the real frustrating pieces of the war.
Speaker 1: Hawkins also tells us about his unit and its primary responsibility.
Speaker 2: My primary battalion was the Knife Engineer Combat Engineer Battalion
Speaker 2: out of Shoe Lie. I was with Delta Company, and
Speaker 2: I was a platoon leader for the third toon of
Speaker 2: Delta Company, which was affectionately known as the Third Herd.
Speaker 2: And so I went up to Delta Company, which was
Speaker 2: located about thirty to forty miles south of d Nag
Speaker 2: and immediately they sent me up to the battalion of
Speaker 2: Korean Marines, who were really unquestionably good warriors, you know.
Speaker 2: So it was just a few of US Americans my platoon.
Speaker 2: I was only American officer for a long time.
Speaker 1: And what exactly was the Third Herd expected to do
Speaker 1: in cooperation with the Korean Marines.
Speaker 2: We supported them in mines and booby traps, and we
Speaker 2: would go on patrols and sweep the roads, and that
Speaker 2: was primarily what we primarily what we did. We did
Speaker 2: a lot of other things, but keeping that highway, especially
Speaker 2: Highway one, which was the main linkage throughout the country. Uh,
Speaker 2: we had a section of that highway, and so we
Speaker 2: would get up every morning and sometimes we would do
Speaker 2: sweeps in the afternoon as well in addition to patrols.
Speaker 2: But we would uh sweep those roads and for mines
Speaker 2: and for booby traps, and uh it was a pretty
Speaker 2: predictable and that's a danger too. Patterns and UH and
Speaker 2: cycles are dangerous in combat, uh in situations like that
Speaker 2: because if they know generally when you're coming and where
Speaker 2: you're got to be, you could almost lad there as
Speaker 2: a sitting duck. And so it was. It was an
Speaker 2: interesting experience one that I really had to stay on
Speaker 2: my ment about because I didn't want them uh falling
Speaker 2: victim to uh, you know, to any sort of sense
Speaker 2: of security, uh, because of the minute you think you're
Speaker 2: secure your dot.
Speaker 1: But in addition to working well with America's allies, Hawkins
Speaker 1: also had to win over his own enlisted men, some
Speaker 1: of whom were already on their second tour. Hawkins says,
Speaker 1: there's only one way to earn trust and respect.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, you certainly are anxious, particularly when about
Speaker 2: those whom you lead who have been there. And I
Speaker 2: had Marines in my platoon who had been over. They
Speaker 2: were on their second visit to Vietnam, and so you
Speaker 2: have to prove yourself. You have to remember though, that
Speaker 2: you lead from the front, and you know you take
Speaker 2: care of your troops and you eat less. And if
Speaker 2: you do those things, then generally that you can earn
Speaker 2: their respect. Respect is never just given. Now you can
Speaker 2: assume respect goes with the rank, but over time, in
Speaker 2: a very short period of time, either you'll earn the
Speaker 2: respect of your Marines or troops or you'll lose it.
Speaker 2: And so I think it was some of my most
Speaker 2: valuable lessons that I have benefited from came during that
Speaker 2: period of time of service. When I was in the
Speaker 2: Marine Corps, I learned far more than I taught by troops.
Speaker 2: I learned from them.
Speaker 1: And it also means getting your men the stuff they
Speaker 1: need and want. And thanks to some Alabama connections, Hawkins
Speaker 1: was able to accomplish that too.
Speaker 2: The major initiative there was supporting by air. Our airfield
Speaker 2: was there that was sort of the base of operations
Speaker 2: for much of the administrative pieces of the Marine Corps
Speaker 2: and logistics center. In fact, I might tell you that
Speaker 2: we were at the end of the supply line where
Speaker 2: I was with the Koreans. But I had a friend
Speaker 2: who knew from college. He was a fraternity brother and
Speaker 2: also a Marine Corps officer, and he was a supply
Speaker 2: officer and we were communicating, and I told him that
Speaker 2: I couldn't get supplies from my marines. And we were
Speaker 2: there not too far from the Americal Division of the Army.
Speaker 2: They had everything, we had nothing, and we would trade
Speaker 2: our sea rats to the extent they would tolerate sea rats.
Speaker 2: They had lurps and you know, better food than we did.
Speaker 2: And so he said, we'll come up and i'll fix
Speaker 2: come to Danang and I'll give you some supplies. And so,
Speaker 2: without any authorization at all, I took a sixth by
Speaker 2: this truck, had my men put a fifty caliber machine
Speaker 2: gun on the back of it, and away we went.
Speaker 2: And without authority, I drove about thirty miles to Danang,
Speaker 2: which I later realized was not only was it naive,
Speaker 2: it was against the rules. But when I got there,
Speaker 2: my friend really loaded us up with supplies. In fact,
Speaker 2: he even threw in a couple of pillows. But when
Speaker 2: we drove into that compound, when my men, my marines
Speaker 2: saw what we had in the back of that truck,
Speaker 2: you know, we got a standing applaus for bringing in
Speaker 2: bringing home the goods, so to speak. And so we
Speaker 2: took care of ourselves and what we needed from the
Speaker 2: Army or from the Korean Marines that we had we
Speaker 2: could barter items to trade.
Speaker 1: In just a moment, you'll hear how Hawkins and other
Speaker 1: members of his platoon were injured just weeks after his
Speaker 1: arrival in Vietnam, and another very difficult day for him
Speaker 1: as a leader, and the guilt that came with it.
Speaker 1: I'm Greg Corumbus, and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is
Speaker 1: Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in this edition
Speaker 1: is doctor Jack Hawkins, Chancellor of Troy University. He also
Speaker 1: served as a US Marine Corps infantry officer during the
Speaker 1: Vietnam War. As mentioned, Hawkins arrived in Vietnam in April
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty eight. On May fourth, nineteen sixty eight,
Speaker 1: while trying to detect booby traps while working alongside those
Speaker 1: Korean Marines, his platoon was ambushed.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm afraid that there are some examples of how
Speaker 2: we probably didn't change those patterns sufficiently, because there were
Speaker 2: several examples of ambushes that they knew we were coming,
Speaker 2: they knew generally when where we would be, they knew
Speaker 2: what the circumstances included. For example, I hadn't been in
Speaker 2: country but just a few weeks when it was on
Speaker 2: a mine sweep with had about a reinforced platoon of
Speaker 2: Korean Marines running security for us, and we would sweep
Speaker 2: the road, and our sweep team largely I would be
Speaker 2: in the middle of it, but unfortunately the radio operator
Speaker 2: was close to me and you could see from a
Speaker 2: distance that antenna, which was a dangerous sign because that
Speaker 2: was a target. And so we were sweeping, sweeping the
Speaker 2: road and we began to take fire. They knew we
Speaker 2: were going to be on that road about that same time,
Speaker 2: and so there was a tree line to our right
Speaker 2: and we began to take small arms fire, automatic weapons
Speaker 2: fire from the right. And the rice paddy had water
Speaker 2: in it, and so in order to really assess what
Speaker 2: was going on, we jumped to this backside of the berm.
Speaker 2: They did a great job. They planted about eight to
Speaker 2: ten mines along that road, spanned about one hundred feet.
Speaker 2: They worked hard to do that, and you know at night,
Speaker 2: all those mines, those eight to ten mines were connected
Speaker 2: by way of wiring, and probably about one hundred two
Speaker 2: hundred meters to our flank, there was Vietcong or NBA.
Speaker 2: We didn't catch who did it, but who set off
Speaker 2: that those explosives. In course, by this time my platoon
Speaker 2: and those who were with us, the Koreans, were right
Speaker 2: in the middle of all of that, And so that
Speaker 2: was that happened just a few weeks after I got there.
Speaker 2: In fact, on May the fourth, nineteen sixty eight, was
Speaker 2: when that occurred. And I don't know that there would
Speaker 2: have been a way to have avoided it. One thing
Speaker 2: that we did as a routine we had hook men
Speaker 2: out on the on the flanks who were dragging these
Speaker 2: hooks trying to find any wires that might be. But
Speaker 2: they must have planted those wires deeply, because we didn't
Speaker 2: find them. And unfortunately, because we didn't find them, we
Speaker 2: wo wound up experiencing what they had planned. They planned
Speaker 2: it very well. And I might say this for the
Speaker 2: most part, where we were south of Denaying and operating
Speaker 2: in that area, in that province, there were a lot
Speaker 2: of Viet Cong. We seldom would see the NBA. On
Speaker 2: occasion we would, but the Viet Cong were everywhere. And
Speaker 2: people may not remember what a Viet Cong was, but
Speaker 2: a viet Cong largely could be a farmer. During the
Speaker 2: day and a soldier at night, and they were formidable.
Speaker 2: They inflicted a lot of casualties because they had the
Speaker 2: benefit of surprise.
Speaker 1: Hawkins says he was dazed and wondering what injuries he
Speaker 1: had sustained when he realized one of his men needed
Speaker 1: his attention far more urgently.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, in the aftermath of that particular experience on May
Speaker 2: the fourth, you know, I couldn't You couldn't hear. I
Speaker 2: couldn't hear it. It cost me part of my hearing,
Speaker 2: and it was at that point I was deaf for
Speaker 2: a period of time, but you couldn't see because of
Speaker 2: all the dust and so forth. And I guess what
Speaker 2: really not to tell too many sea stories here, but
Speaker 2: probably what really brought me back to reality. I looked
Speaker 2: up in my patune sergeant. Half of his foot was
Speaker 2: dragging behind him. He had been on top of one
Speaker 2: of those minds or near one of those mines, and
Speaker 2: probably had it not been for him in the situation
Speaker 2: he faced, I don't know how long I would have
Speaker 2: just lay there, but when I saw him I had
Speaker 2: to immediately react to that put him off that road,
Speaker 2: and that helped me to be more concerned about my
Speaker 2: troops than myself. I think that was a good leadership
Speaker 2: lesson too. You know, you often learned through your stakes.
Speaker 2: Fortunately I didn't have the time to make the mistake
Speaker 2: of just thinking about myself. But it was that young
Speaker 2: sergeant in his situation that brought me back to where
Speaker 2: I should have been.
Speaker 1: Less than one month into his deployment, Hawkins earned his
Speaker 1: first Purple Heart. He would receive one more, although he
Speaker 1: says the circumstances of the second one were not nearly
Speaker 1: as intense as the first. In fact, Hawkins says he's
Speaker 1: more sheepish about acknowledging that one.
Speaker 2: It was not a typical sort of thing, and frankly
Speaker 2: it was more humorous than it was injurious And several
Speaker 2: months later I was walking across this French made bridge,
Speaker 2: had left my weapon on one end, had some troops
Speaker 2: on either end of it, and from a tree line
Speaker 2: they opened up on me, and in the process of
Speaker 2: moving for cover behind the columns of the bridge, I
Speaker 2: fell off the bridge with all that momentum and fell
Speaker 2: about twenty feet into a bed of rocks, cracked my kneecap,
Speaker 2: ruined my elbow for many months, and they penned a
Speaker 2: second purple heart on me for that which I was
Speaker 2: never never really knew if I wanted to wear it
Speaker 2: or not, but because that was of my own doing.
Speaker 1: Following his injuries, Hawkins was reassigned to jobs he did
Speaker 1: not enjoy as much and asked to be named a
Speaker 1: platoon commander again. His higher ups had just the assignment
Speaker 1: for him, restoring order to a platoon that had lost
Speaker 1: its focus and needed to get its priorities straight.
Speaker 2: Then they pulled me to the rear and I had
Speaker 2: a battalion assignment. Didn't like it was in battalion there
Speaker 2: shoelafe for about six six weeks maybe two months, and
Speaker 2: I went to my battalion commander and I told him that,
Speaker 2: you know, I wanted another platoon. And he had a
Speaker 2: situation with the Segon Battalion, first Marines near Da Dang.
Speaker 2: He said, if you want a platoon, I give you
Speaker 2: a platoon. We have a situation with two to one
Speaker 2: where our platoon leaders has become too familiar with the troops.
Speaker 2: He said, he's lost his platform and we're having to
Speaker 2: relieve him. And so he said, if you want that platoon,
Speaker 2: I'll give it to you. And I said okay. And
Speaker 2: so I went up there and quickly discovered, you know,
Speaker 2: the source of the problems there. And I think that
Speaker 2: it was a familiarity breeds contempt. And you can't be
Speaker 2: so arrogant or egotistical that you can't become part of
Speaker 2: the unit. But you can't give way to that familiarity
Speaker 2: because hard decisions, you can't be that close. It's mission first,
Speaker 2: and that's another thing that we learned through training that
Speaker 2: has helped me throughout life. Mission first, people a close second.
Speaker 2: But if you ever subordinate your mission to your people,
Speaker 2: then you probably are making them miss because sometimes those
Speaker 2: hard decisions require people who follow, are not standing just
Speaker 2: besides you, but follow. And so I had that was
Speaker 2: a unique experience. I'd had a great platoon UH in
Speaker 2: the third herd and UH, and when I watched this
Speaker 2: group throughout an afternoon realized what some of the problems were.
Speaker 2: I gathered them and UH and said, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I gave them my guadal Cadal speech. You may be
Speaker 2: of different race, you may be of different background, but
Speaker 2: we are all Marines and we're going to act like it.
Speaker 2: And there's no more uh, no more this and that.
Speaker 2: I won't get into the details of all of that.
Speaker 2: But uh and, I said, and if you have been
Speaker 2: engaged or involved in in drugs. And by that time,
Speaker 2: when I got to Vietnam, I never saw any drugs,
Speaker 2: and out in the field, I never saw very much.
Speaker 2: But this was more of a battalion situation. And uh
Speaker 2: and and I detected that there was some drug use,
Speaker 2: especially marijuana, and I sort of laid down the law
Speaker 2: that that was gonna and that was not tolerated. I said,
Speaker 2: if you want to be part of this unit. Well,
Speaker 2: not everybody agreed with that. It took me several days
Speaker 2: to get rid of some of those troublemakers, and I
Speaker 2: found some of the most interesting places to send them
Speaker 2: that I could find. And after that we had a
Speaker 2: model platoon. They almost reflected the conduct and behavior and
Speaker 2: decorum of the Third Herd.
Speaker 1: But while the mission remained the top priority, commanding a
Speaker 1: platoon again also means taking care of your men as
Speaker 1: much as possible. Hawkins described another deadly moment and a
Speaker 1: decision he regretted in the moment and also stayed with
Speaker 1: him long afterwards.
Speaker 2: Drawing sniper fire. Mortar fire was a common as almost
Speaker 2: a daily experience, and on one particular occasion in September,
Speaker 2: we were sweeping the road and getting back to patterns
Speaker 2: and having to be concerned about that. We had swept
Speaker 2: up to a village. We began taking small arms fire,
Speaker 2: and of course that required required a response. But in
Speaker 2: the middle of this mind sweep team, we would have
Speaker 2: this truck this sixth by, and on that sixth by
Speaker 2: you'd have mounted you'd have two or three marines on
Speaker 2: the back of that truck, and you'd have a machine
Speaker 2: gun or fifty caliber machine gun mounted there. They began
Speaker 2: firing back towards end of this tree line, but then
Speaker 2: it subsided. The truck went into the village to turn around,
Speaker 2: and I noticed at the last minute there that there
Speaker 2: was a school where this driver was turning into. But
Speaker 2: there were no children, and that was rather unusual. And
Speaker 2: before I could get to or stop this driver from
Speaker 2: turning into that driveway under the school grounds to back
Speaker 2: his truck up, so we marched south, he hit a
Speaker 2: mine and that killed several marines who were on that
Speaker 2: truck nearby. In fact, I had a corman who was
Speaker 2: on the who had jumped up. I told him twice
Speaker 2: to get off that running board, but his buddy was
Speaker 2: driving the truck, and immediately Doc was blown about fifty
Speaker 2: feet away and instantly killed. It. Blew the driver out
Speaker 2: about fifty feet and blew the bend off the back
Speaker 2: end of the sixth by, and a couple of those
Speaker 2: guys were killed. Blew one across the road into a
Speaker 2: rice paddy. Now, fortunately there was some water in that
Speaker 2: rice paddy and he emerged. But my driver, when I
Speaker 2: got to him, he was walking back. Most of his
Speaker 2: clothing was blown off, and he was just a walking
Speaker 2: zombie at that point. Great man, but he survived. He
Speaker 2: suffered probably seventy five percent burns over his body, having
Speaker 2: been blown out of that driver's seat onto the road,
Speaker 2: and with his skin dripping off of his arms. He
Speaker 2: came back towards me, and I'll never forget. When we
Speaker 2: called in that metavac, two things happened. I hate to
Speaker 2: say this about my Marine Corps, but we started taking
Speaker 2: incoming again, and I called in metovac to extract these
Speaker 2: wounded men and the bodies. My Marine Corps helicopter came
Speaker 2: in but began taking fire, and so he took off,
Speaker 2: and so I resorted to calling medical crew from the
Speaker 2: m a er Cayle Division and an Army helicopter came in.
Speaker 2: And I have great respect for those Army pilots who
Speaker 2: flew those hues. Most of them were eighteen twenty twenty
Speaker 2: two years old. They knew no fear, at least most
Speaker 2: of them didn't, and they were worth They were very
Speaker 2: valuable in that situation. He brought that helicopter in. We
Speaker 2: were able to put those men on that helicopter. And
Speaker 2: this man, Zach is his last name. He's still alive.
Speaker 2: When I put him on that helicopter, I never thought
Speaker 2: he would survive. He was even sticking to the base
Speaker 2: of the helicopter. But thanks to quality health care in
Speaker 2: forty operations later, he came out. He was married, had children.
Speaker 1: There's nothing harder than losing the menu fight with shoulder
Speaker 1: to shoulder, Hawkins freely admits he learned more from them
Speaker 1: than they did from him, but he also says his
Speaker 1: time in the Marine Corps opened his eyes to something
Speaker 1: he had never realized back home.
Speaker 2: I never went to an integrated school. You know. We
Speaker 2: grew up in a segregated South and so I had
Speaker 2: little or no contact with minorities. Even when I went
Speaker 2: to the basic school in Quantico, there were four hundred
Speaker 2: second lieutenants, and it was not totally integrated. We had
Speaker 2: some from Hispanic backgrounds, but to my knowledge, we didn't
Speaker 2: have one African American in that battalion or that company
Speaker 2: of Marines. And so it was not until I arrived
Speaker 2: in Vietnam that I had any real involvement with people
Speaker 2: of different races. I had known a couple of international
Speaker 2: students in undergraduate school, but even then we were more segregated.
Speaker 2: And so I think what I learned from early in
Speaker 2: that experience in Vietnam, where twenty five percent of my
Speaker 2: troops with African American, about fifteen percent we're either Hispanic
Speaker 2: or we had a couple of Asians of that background,
Speaker 2: but about sixty percent were Caucasians. But when that first
Speaker 2: round goes off, you don't really care what race or background.
Speaker 2: You care about each other. And I think, while it
Speaker 2: might be a worn out phrase, all blood flows red.
Speaker 2: And I think that experience in Vietnam changed my perspective.
Speaker 2: Not only did I gain a perspective of the global community,
Speaker 2: but also gained a perspective and the appreciation for looking
Speaker 2: beyond race, looking beyond backgrounds, you know, looking to the person.
Speaker 1: That's doctor Jack Hawkins, Chancellor of Troy University in Alabama.
Speaker 1: He served as a US Marine Corps infantry officer and
Speaker 1: platoon commander during the Vietnam War. When we come back,
Speaker 1: doctor Hawkins moves from the military into the academic world,
Speaker 1: and within a few decades he was right back in Vietnam.
Speaker 1: That story is next. I'm Greg Corumbus and this is
Speaker 1: Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our
Speaker 1: guest in this edition is doctor Jack Hawkins. He's the
Speaker 1: chancellor of Troy University in Troy, Alabama. He also served
Speaker 1: as a platoon commander in the US Marine Corps during
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. Hawkins came home from Vietnam in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty nine. Before long, he was back in school, and
Speaker 1: soon he realized he wanted to stay on campus working
Speaker 1: in higher education. He eventually found his way to Troy University.
Speaker 1: The schools respect for our military and commitment to traditional
Speaker 1: values led to educational opportunities for Troy students around the
Speaker 1: world and for international students to come to Troy. And
Speaker 1: that's how Hawkins ended up back in Vietnam and creating
Speaker 1: a professional partnership with a former Vietcong.
Speaker 2: Troy University is a pretty conservative place. It's a flag
Speaker 2: waving place. It's a place where values are important. The
Speaker 2: culture is important. I often tell our Board of Trustees
Speaker 2: and our faculty and staff, our most important responsibility is
Speaker 2: the preservation of this culture. A lot of higher education
Speaker 2: in this country has gone far to the left, and
Speaker 2: Troy is not like that.
Speaker 1: Troy.
Speaker 2: If those who serve are important to Troy University, we
Speaker 2: recognize them. We just do everything we can to support them.
Speaker 2: But it's been that way for many, many years. My predecessor,
Speaker 2: doctor half Adams, served and he was a brigadier general
Speaker 2: in the Air Force and retired, and he carried us
Speaker 2: to Europe through add contract in nineteen seventy four. Well,
Speaker 2: we had been on bases in this country. We were
Speaker 2: at Fort Rucker now Fort Novsel, we were over at
Speaker 2: Fort Benning, we were at Maxwell Air Force Base. But
Speaker 2: it was the international piece started in nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 2: and when I arrived in Troy, that was all in place.
Speaker 2: We were in ten countries, twenty six military bases. I
Speaker 2: found that really attracting, and that was one reason I
Speaker 2: wanted to be part of Troy. So when they offered
Speaker 2: me the position, of course I was accepted it. But
Speaker 2: when the Berlin Wall came down, the Soviet Union fell apart,
Speaker 2: this country downsized troop strength in Europe by two thirds,
Speaker 2: and so there was no longer a presence required for
Speaker 2: us serving those men and women in uniform. We began
Speaker 2: to look to the future, and we saw the future
Speaker 2: more in Asia than we did in Europe, and so
Speaker 2: it was then that we began we had a three
Speaker 2: three prong strategy. The first was to bring Troy or
Speaker 2: the world to Troy. We began to recruit international students.
Speaker 2: We only had forty international students on our main campus
Speaker 2: before COVID we had seventy five countries represented in over
Speaker 2: four hundred students from China alone. So we changed the
Speaker 2: culture of the university. There was a much more diverse
Speaker 2: and today there is a much more diverse student body
Speaker 2: than we had back then. We also, though committed ourselves
Speaker 2: to continuing to plant the flag. We may not be
Speaker 2: throughout Europe like we had once worked, but there are
Speaker 2: markets and places we needed to serve in Asia. And
Speaker 2: then the third, of course, is a study of broad peace,
Speaker 2: which we try to encourage all of our students. But
Speaker 2: it was that second piece, planning our flag abroad that
Speaker 2: carried me to Vietnam. And we were already in places
Speaker 2: like China and Malaysia. But in Vietnam I was invited
Speaker 2: in O one I turned it down. That's how strongly
Speaker 2: I felt about Vietnam. But in two I was invited
Speaker 2: again and decided to go. And it was a totally
Speaker 2: different country. The Vietnam that I left was not the
Speaker 2: Vietnam that I encountered when I went back in two,
Speaker 2: I didn't see resentment. I didn't see very many examples
Speaker 2: of where the war had destroyed the country or the people. Now,
Speaker 2: there were a lot of those when you look beyond
Speaker 2: the pale, you could see, but it was a different country.
Speaker 2: And so we went to Hanoi first, believe it or not.
Speaker 2: In fact, my first hotel room overlooked what has become
Speaker 2: known is the Hanoi Hilton. I could have thrown a
Speaker 2: stone out of my hotel room and hit the roof
Speaker 2: of that prison where John McCain and all those great
Speaker 2: men were imprisoned all those years. And so we set
Speaker 2: up programs with parts universities. We don't build buildings, we
Speaker 2: build partnerships, and so we set up programs. We're in
Speaker 2: partnership with two universities in Hanoi. We went down to
Speaker 2: Saigon now the name was changed to Ho Chi Minh City,
Speaker 2: set up an academic program or programs there, and things
Speaker 2: began to really develop. In two thousand and eight, Troy
Speaker 2: became the first American university to ever award the bachelor's
Speaker 2: degree in Vietnam. The years passed, twenty seventeen, I was
Speaker 2: invited to have dinner while I was in country for
Speaker 2: a graduation ceremony to go to Dunang. Of course, you know,
Speaker 2: I was always interested in going back to d Nang,
Speaker 2: and so I went back to d Nang and had
Speaker 2: dinner with this gentleman who had started a private university.
Speaker 2: It is known as Dewey Kan University. Today it's the
Speaker 2: number one private university in that country. He established that
Speaker 2: university in nineteen ninety four, so it's been thirty years.
Speaker 2: They just celebrated the thirtieth anniversary. What I learned over dinner, though,
Speaker 2: and it may have been the most interesting conversation I've
Speaker 2: ever had. I learned that he had fought as a
Speaker 2: Viet Cong. And what I later learned was that not
Speaker 2: only had he fought as a vit Kan soldier, but
Speaker 2: he was considered a national hero, and so that gave
Speaker 2: him some leverage when he attempted to start this private university.
Speaker 2: And I found it so interesting and almost a paradox
Speaker 2: that here we were two men who had fought on
Speaker 2: opposite sides of the battlefield coming together to talk about
Speaker 2: a partnership which would unite our universities well based on
Speaker 2: the year's fifteen years experience we had. I knew it
Speaker 2: could be done. We had done it well in other places,
Speaker 2: and so we launched a partnership and it has worked beautifully.
Speaker 2: He has a great university. I've gotten to know him.
Speaker 2: His name is doctor Lei khan Co.
Speaker 1: Going back to Vietnam was opening for Hawkins, both in
Speaker 1: terms of education and how different Vietnam was decades after
Speaker 1: he served there. Hawkins says, the advancements in Vietnam are
Speaker 1: very impressive.
Speaker 2: We have over two thousand graduates in Vietnam. They're in
Speaker 2: responsible positions, rising executives with Samsung, with nonprofits like the
Speaker 2: Helen Keller Foundation, et cetera, et cetera. And we have
Speaker 2: about twelve hundred students on the ground and a growing
Speaker 2: population of students. Many of those students want the American experience,
Speaker 2: and so those who are able to afford it come
Speaker 2: to Troy. We have over one hundred students from Vietnam
Speaker 2: on this campus, the majority of who started with us
Speaker 2: in Vietnam. But because of a curriculum that allows matriculation
Speaker 2: without the loss of credits, if you begin in a
Speaker 2: computer science program in day Nay, you can finish in
Speaker 2: the computer science program in Troy. And so it's a
Speaker 2: highly articulated program that opens doors for students who have
Speaker 2: that desire, and most do. I think I would summarize
Speaker 2: all of that by saying, the people in Vietnam have
Speaker 2: a deep appreciation for Americans, and I believe our appreciation
Speaker 2: for Vietnam is growing in America. When I was there
Speaker 2: this fall, what I also witnessed was a lot of
Speaker 2: manufacturing being shifted from China down to Vietnam. And so
Speaker 2: the business community is really getting involved, and I think
Speaker 2: we'll see we'll see a lot more of the free
Speaker 2: market system in Vietnam than you'll see in any other
Speaker 2: communist country. Governmentally, they may be called communists, but the
Speaker 2: young people we serve in the communities throughout that country.
Speaker 2: They want to know how this free market system works
Speaker 2: and they want to be part of it.
Speaker 1: The friendship Howkins struck up with the Viet Cong fighter
Speaker 1: turned university president also took on a new dimension a
Speaker 1: documentary focused on the importance of reconciliation.
Speaker 2: Now, doctor lay Conko is the founder of that university
Speaker 2: and is the president of that university. Has two children
Speaker 2: who adore him, doctor Hong Ley who is a daughter,
Speaker 2: and doctor Bao Lay the son, and both are involved
Speaker 2: with the university. But just to give you how an
Speaker 2: idea of how the world has changed. The daughter of
Speaker 2: lay kan Ko came to America and she lived for
Speaker 2: twenty years in Washington, State of Washington. She's married and
Speaker 2: now recently I hear from her regularly. She lives in Amsterdam.
Speaker 2: But her son plays GoF at the University of Washington,
Speaker 2: and the son, Biolay, is still in Da Nang. The
Speaker 2: reason I give you that background they revere their dad.
Speaker 2: So it was about two years ago now almost three
Speaker 2: years about two and a half years ago, they commissioned
Speaker 2: a film company out of Danang to capture the story
Speaker 2: that they were witnessing with particularly the life of their dad.
Speaker 2: Their primary desire was to capture the story of their
Speaker 2: dad so that the family could preserve that the memories
Speaker 2: in the history of this man. He's now eighty four
Speaker 2: years old, and so you know, they wanted to do
Speaker 2: it as quickly as they could, and so this film
Speaker 2: crew got involved in it. They even came to Troy
Speaker 2: University and did a lot of footage. But it was
Speaker 2: for the family. It was never for public consumption, and
Speaker 2: so the but it went. They sent it through the
Speaker 2: censorship process in Vietnam and the government approved it for airing.
Speaker 2: It aired in the Central Highlands in December of twenty three,
Speaker 2: and it was so well received that they aired it
Speaker 2: over national television in January. And it was during the
Speaker 2: airing of that documentary in January that President, the former
Speaker 2: president of Vietnam called doctor hang Ley and said she
Speaker 2: was in country when he called her in Vietnam, and
Speaker 2: he said that not only should the people of Vietnam
Speaker 2: see this, but the people of America see this. You know.
Speaker 2: He went on to emphasize that it was not as
Speaker 2: much about war as it was about war breeding, reconciliation
Speaker 2: and its reconciliation and a partnership that was born of
Speaker 2: a war. And the family put the label on the film,
Speaker 2: the documentary and it's beyond a war. But the magic
Speaker 2: and power is really in the subtitle where it says
Speaker 2: wars begin and end, but love lasts forever, or relationships
Speaker 2: last forever, as it might be interpreted. It was released
Speaker 2: to America the Vietnam Veterans Board in Washington approved endorse
Speaker 2: this documentary. That all the members of the board apparently
Speaker 2: watched the documentary and they they approved it and encouraged
Speaker 2: you know, Americans to see it. It didn't premiere though
Speaker 2: in America until September the twenty ninth of this past
Speaker 2: year in Montgomery, and then it was shown over public
Speaker 2: television in Alabama, and now it's being marketed for public television,
Speaker 2: YouTube and you know, and other outlets so people can
Speaker 2: see this documentary which is about reconciliation. And when I
Speaker 2: what I've been asked, what's the value of it? I
Speaker 2: think about the division in America that we've experienced in
Speaker 2: recent years, and how real leadership is about bringing people together,
Speaker 2: and what we need in America today is unity more
Speaker 2: than we've ever needed it. And I think if as
Speaker 2: a good example of reconciliation, if we can resolve between
Speaker 2: countries that were once at war, surely we can resolve
Speaker 2: differences within our political structure, within our communities of this country.
Speaker 2: And so it's a demonstration of what can be if
Speaker 2: you've work together and focus on the future. It's stay
Speaker 2: focused on what's good for humanity.
Speaker 1: That's doctor Jack Hawkins, Chancellor of Troy University in Troy, Alabama.
Speaker 1: Since taking on that role, he created the Troy for
Speaker 1: Troops program, which assists military affiliated students. He's also been
Speaker 1: named Alabama's Citizen of the Year, and he received the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four Armed Forces Merit Award for his work
Speaker 1: with the military and in advancing college athletics. The documentary
Speaker 1: he mentioned is entitled Beyond a War. I'm Greg Corumbus
Speaker 1: and this is Veterans Chronicles. Hi, this is Greg Corumbus,
Speaker 1: and thanks for listening to Veterans Chronicles, a presentation of
Speaker 1: the American Veterans Center. For more information, please visit American
Speaker 1: Veteranscenter dot org. You can also follow the American Veterans
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