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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in

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<v Speaker 1>this edition is doctor Jack Hawkins. He's the chancellor of

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<v Speaker 1>Troy University in Troy, Alabama. He also served as a

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<v Speaker 1>US Marine Corps officer in the Vietnam War. That's where

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<v Speaker 1>he earned a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts. Today

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<v Speaker 1>we'll discuss why doctor Hawkins became a Marine, his service

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<v Speaker 1>in Vietnam during one of the most volatile parts of

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<v Speaker 1>the war, both at home and abroad, some of the

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<v Speaker 1>most harrowing moments of the war for him, and how

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<v Speaker 1>his work in the academic world brought him full circle

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<v Speaker 1>back to Vietnam. Jack Hawkins was born in Alabama in

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<v Speaker 1>March of nineteen forty five, and he has called the

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<v Speaker 1>state home for most of his life. Hawkins says he

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<v Speaker 1>learned hard work at a very early age.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm a native Alabamian, but the only time outside

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<v Speaker 2>the state was during my Marine Corps service and born

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<v Speaker 2>in Mobile, Alabama. Grew up in Alabama. I was one

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<v Speaker 2>of four children, son of the son of the Great

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<v Speaker 2>Depression my dad. I thought my mother was well educated

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<v Speaker 2>because she graduated tenth grade. He graduated eighth grade, and

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<v Speaker 2>so we learned at an early age what real work was.

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<v Speaker 2>He would go into the woods of South Alabama and

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<v Speaker 2>cut the trees and haul the logs, and when I

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<v Speaker 2>was very young, he invited me. I later learned in

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<v Speaker 2>the Marine Corps that that was a command performance, and

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<v Speaker 2>it made me appreciate hard work. It made me appreciate

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<v Speaker 2>stewardship because we didn't waste money.

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<v Speaker 1>In addition to the work, I think he learned from

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<v Speaker 1>his father. Hawkins also grew up in a community with

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<v Speaker 1>a strong commitment to military service.

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<v Speaker 2>Early in my life, and I was born into the

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<v Speaker 2>latter stages of World War Two, and so during the

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<v Speaker 2>forties and throughout the fifties early sixties, almost every man

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<v Speaker 2>that I knew either fought in World War Two or

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<v Speaker 2>served during that period of time, or fought in Korea

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<v Speaker 2>or but all were military, and so the military influence

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<v Speaker 2>was deep. I didn't quite know that what people did

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<v Speaker 2>other than cut trees and serve the country. So my

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<v Speaker 2>attitude was shaped at an early point.

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<v Speaker 1>But in the Hawkins family, there wasn't just high respect

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<v Speaker 1>for the military. There was a specific affinity for the

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<v Speaker 1>US Marine Corps. Multiple generations of the family served in

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<v Speaker 1>the Corps, and Hawkins vividly remembers when and why he

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to be a marine.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, when you you almost emulate what you admire.

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<v Speaker 2>I think when my brother in law in nineteen fifty

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<v Speaker 2>seven walked into my home as he was courting my

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<v Speaker 2>sister and he was wearing that dress blue uniform, I

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<v Speaker 2>fell in love with it, and so my eyes had

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<v Speaker 2>focused on service. But just those who I respected most

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<v Speaker 2>encouraged me to at least consider and so when I

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<v Speaker 2>graduated high school, that was to be my course to

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<v Speaker 2>be an enlisted marine. And I went to the recruiter.

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<v Speaker 2>He shared with me the difference in being a PFC

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<v Speaker 2>and being a second lieutenant. And I said, well, how

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<v Speaker 2>do you become a second lieutenant? And he said, where

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<v Speaker 2>you go to college. Nobody in my college family had

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<v Speaker 2>ever gone to college, and so that was rather a

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<v Speaker 2>new concept for me, and I checked into that, decided

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<v Speaker 2>I would take that challenge, and that's really what led

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<v Speaker 2>me to become a freshman in nineteen sixty three. Immediately

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<v Speaker 2>after the first semester, I joined what's known as the

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<v Speaker 2>Patoon Leaders Class Program Marine Corps. A lot of Marine

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<v Speaker 2>officers come by that route, and for the next several

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<v Speaker 2>years until I graduated, during the summers, I would go

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<v Speaker 2>to Quantico, and so I was an enlisted man until

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<v Speaker 2>I was commissioned in nineteen sixty seven, and so that

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<v Speaker 2>was my goal. It probably not only influenced me to

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<v Speaker 2>go to college, but to do the best I could

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<v Speaker 2>while I was there, because I knew the ramifications of

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<v Speaker 2>not doing well, and so I proudly stepped into that

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<v Speaker 2>position of being a second lieutenant in May of nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>sixty seven.

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<v Speaker 1>As an enlisted man pursuing an officer's commission, Hawkins spent

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<v Speaker 1>multiple summers in grueling training at Quantico, Virginia. He says

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<v Speaker 1>those courses were not pleasant, but they were very important

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<v Speaker 1>in shaping him into a leader of marines.

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<v Speaker 2>That was an experience most of us didn't want to

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<v Speaker 2>do again. It was challenging. You would go between the

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<v Speaker 2>freshman and sophomore year during the summer, you would go

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<v Speaker 2>and uh and that's a hot period of time in Quatico,

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<v Speaker 2>as you know. And we started with about sixty officer

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<v Speaker 2>candidates in my platoon and about half of us finished

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<v Speaker 2>at the end of the summer. And so it was

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<v Speaker 2>a grueling experience, but one that you know. They often

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<v Speaker 2>say the hot of the fire, the stronger the still

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<v Speaker 2>and either you'll be challenged and meet that challenge, or

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<v Speaker 2>you'll succumb to it. And I was really proud because

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<v Speaker 2>that shaped a lot of my future. As I'm sure

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<v Speaker 2>every other successful candidate would say, the difficult part was

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<v Speaker 2>knowing what we were going to have to do in

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<v Speaker 2>the second summer between our junior and senior years. And

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<v Speaker 2>when you go back knowing, you know, ignorance is bliss.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that first summer I didn't know exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>to anticipate or expect, but I knew going back, and

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<v Speaker 2>so that's that the second summer was more difficult, I

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<v Speaker 2>think than the first, simply because you knew what was coming.

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<v Speaker 2>But that too was a challenging experience, particularly a main

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<v Speaker 2>side in Quantico. You have where they train officers, you

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<v Speaker 2>have what's called the hill trails, and the hill trails

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<v Speaker 2>that was a right of departure and a right of

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<v Speaker 2>passage because if you couldn't maneuver and make those hill trails,

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<v Speaker 2>you probably didn't get that commission at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the experience. And so it was it was a challenging

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<v Speaker 2>time physically, but it was also challenging mentally. The Marine

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<v Speaker 2>Corps does a great job of training you. And I

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<v Speaker 2>also will never forget the words of the drill instructors.

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<v Speaker 2>We had drill instructors all enlisted, and they would make

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<v Speaker 2>it very clear to you that if you couldn't survive

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<v Speaker 2>their training and at their hands, they didn't want you

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<v Speaker 2>leading them later. And so the whole I think the

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<v Speaker 2>part of the philosophy was to was to wash you out,

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<v Speaker 2>as we would say back then, and you could drop

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<v Speaker 2>out or you could be washed out, you know. But

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<v Speaker 2>I always felt coming out of the woods in South

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<v Speaker 2>Alabama that it would have been a lot harder to

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<v Speaker 2>come home a failure than to stay there and withstand

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<v Speaker 2>what they were doing. And so but it was a wonderful,

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful experience in my life because I reaped so many rewards.

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<v Speaker 2>But if you asked me the question do you want

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<v Speaker 2>to do it again? I would say no, thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>After graduating college in nineteen sixty seven, Hawkins faced several

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<v Speaker 1>more months of intense training before deploying to Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if you went immediately after commissioning, just based

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<v Speaker 2>on the first two summers of training. I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>you would be nearly as prepared, but they prepared us

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<v Speaker 2>over the next six months when we left the college

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<v Speaker 2>and we graduated the basic school, and then they would

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<v Speaker 2>send us to special schools. And then on April the fourth,

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty eight, I left Mobile, Alabama, en route to Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually I left a couple of days early, but I

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<v Speaker 2>left the United States out of the Travis Air Force

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<v Speaker 2>Base in San Francisco on the fourth day of April

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<v Speaker 2>of nineteen sixty eight, and away I went to Vietnam

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<v Speaker 2>by way of Okinawa.

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<v Speaker 1>As Hawkins mentioned, he left for Vietnam on April fourth,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixty eight, the very day doctor Martin Luther King

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<v Speaker 1>Junior was killed in Memphis. Days later, Hawkins was in Vietnam,

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<v Speaker 1>and he says the climate, the politics, and the reality

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<v Speaker 1>of war were all weighing heavily on his mind.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, when we got off the plane in Dunag, we

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<v Speaker 2>had been in Okinawa a couple of days in preparation

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<v Speaker 2>for going into country. We arrived in dnae Uh in

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<v Speaker 2>early April, and I stepped off the plane and the plane,

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<v Speaker 2>of course was comfortable into one hundred and thirteen degree weather.

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<v Speaker 2>And at that time there were a lot of troops

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<v Speaker 2>that were being uh, that were being killed and UH.

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<v Speaker 2>And on the runway there was a line of body bags.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that was my first experience, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>exposure to Vietnam. You step off, you see the stairs,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you see all these body bags, and then

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<v Speaker 2>you experience the heat and the humidity and UH. And

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<v Speaker 2>so that was it was an eye opening experience, but

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<v Speaker 2>one you had to adjust to and and all of

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<v Speaker 2>us did, of course, but I had kept up with UH.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Vietnam, I mean, Marine Corps did a good

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<v Speaker 2>job of preparing us. UH. And that was a really

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<v Speaker 2>period of unrest. As you may know, during UH the

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<v Speaker 2>during nineteen sixty eight, there were UH there were demonstrations

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<v Speaker 2>all over this country. We were in Quantico and in Washington,

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand people gathered to oppose the war. And

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<v Speaker 2>so it made a young man think, now, what am

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<v Speaker 2>I getting into and why am I doing this? But

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<v Speaker 2>I think most of us who grew up watching John

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<v Speaker 2>Wayne movies believed in the country, and we believed in

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<v Speaker 2>what we were doing. And so I sort of side

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<v Speaker 2>stepped in. He disbelieved for questions and stepped into what

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<v Speaker 2>they had prepared me to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Hawkins says, as soon as he landed, he was in

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<v Speaker 1>the air again and on the way to his first

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<v Speaker 1>assignment as a Marine Corps officer in Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 2>Immediately after I arrived in Danang, they put me on

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<v Speaker 2>a plane and flew me down to Cheu Lie. And

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<v Speaker 2>it was from there that they put me on a

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<v Speaker 2>helicopter and flew me up to my first duty assignment

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<v Speaker 2>as a platoon leader. And so you had to adjust

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<v Speaker 2>pretty quickly. And I knew that it would be a challenge,

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<v Speaker 2>but I didn't know you know, very much about that challenge.

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<v Speaker 2>But it didn't take long before my feet were wet

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<v Speaker 2>and I was at least a jesting.

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<v Speaker 1>That's doctor Jack Hawkins, Chancellor of Troy University in Alabama,

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<v Speaker 1>who also served as a Marine Corps officer and platoon

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<v Speaker 1>commander in Vietnam. When we come back, doctor Hawkins explains

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<v Speaker 1>how he won the confidence of more experienced enlisted men

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<v Speaker 1>and the dangerous work assigned to his platoon that got

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<v Speaker 1>him wounded less than a month after arriving. I'm Greg

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<v Speaker 1>Corumbus and this is Veterans Chronicles.

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<v Speaker 3>Sixty seconds of Service. This sixty seconds of Service is

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<v Speaker 3>Karen Pearson knows firsthand the struggles many veterans can go

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<v Speaker 3>through when they return home to civilian life. Her former

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<v Speaker 3>husband of twenty two years was deployed just four days

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<v Speaker 3>after nine to eleven. When he returned, he was just different,

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<v Speaker 3>she said. Over the course of several years, he just

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<v Speaker 3>continued to get worse, suicidal, homicidal. She left her private

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<v Speaker 3>practice to teach fitness and yoga classes, both of which

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<v Speaker 3>she said changed patients faster than talk therapy. Once she

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<v Speaker 3>met Mitch Kraus, the two began volunteering with the local

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<v Speaker 3>National Guard to improve members physical and mental readiness, and

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<v Speaker 1>This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in

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<v Speaker 1>this edition is doctor Jack Hawkins. He served as a

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<v Speaker 1>US Marine Corps infantry officer in the Vietnam War. When

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<v Speaker 1>Hawkins arrived in Vietnam in April of nineteen sixty eight,

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<v Speaker 1>the United States was engaged in Operation Wheeler Wallowa. Hawkins

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<v Speaker 1>explains what that mission was designed to accomplish.

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<v Speaker 2>We were largely in a in a compound situation, and

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<v Speaker 2>so the operations that we went on were patrols and

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<v Speaker 2>making sure that highway was open. It was in Operation

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<v Speaker 2>Wheeler Wallower that and that lasted for several months. And

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<v Speaker 2>so it wasn't just one intense campaign that started here

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<v Speaker 2>and a week later ended, uh. It was. It was

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<v Speaker 2>more drawn out than that. We were in the quang

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<v Speaker 2>Nam Province, which was south of the name, but it

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<v Speaker 2>was an overall effort to rid that region of the

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<v Speaker 2>Vietcong in the NVA, and so it would required, you know, vigilance,

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<v Speaker 2>it required lots of air support, it required combat. Generally,

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<v Speaker 2>it just sometimes you'd find him and most often you couldn't.

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<v Speaker 2>That was one of the real frustrating pieces of the war.

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<v Speaker 1>Hawkins also tells us about his unit and its primary responsibility.

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<v Speaker 2>My primary battalion was the Knife Engineer Combat Engineer Battalion

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<v Speaker 2>out of Shoe Lie. I was with Delta Company, and

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<v Speaker 2>I was a platoon leader for the third toon of

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<v Speaker 2>Delta Company, which was affectionately known as the Third Herd.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I went up to Delta Company, which was

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<v Speaker 2>located about thirty to forty miles south of d Nag

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<v Speaker 2>and immediately they sent me up to the battalion of

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<v Speaker 2>Korean Marines, who were really unquestionably good warriors, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was just a few of US Americans my platoon.

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<v Speaker 2>I was only American officer for a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>And what exactly was the Third Herd expected to do

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<v Speaker 1>in cooperation with the Korean Marines.

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<v Speaker 2>We supported them in mines and booby traps, and we

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<v Speaker 2>would go on patrols and sweep the roads, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was primarily what we primarily what we did. We did

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of other things, but keeping that highway, especially

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<v Speaker 2>Highway one, which was the main linkage throughout the country. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>we had a section of that highway, and so we

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<v Speaker 2>would get up every morning and sometimes we would do

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<v Speaker 2>sweeps in the afternoon as well in addition to patrols.

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<v Speaker 2>But we would uh sweep those roads and for mines

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<v Speaker 2>and for booby traps, and uh it was a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>predictable and that's a danger too. Patterns and UH and

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<v Speaker 2>cycles are dangerous in combat, uh in situations like that

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<v Speaker 2>because if they know generally when you're coming and where

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<v Speaker 2>you're got to be, you could almost lad there as

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<v Speaker 2>a sitting duck. And so it was. It was an

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<v Speaker 2>interesting experience one that I really had to stay on

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<v Speaker 2>my ment about because I didn't want them uh falling

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<v Speaker 2>victim to uh, you know, to any sort of sense

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<v Speaker 2>of security, uh, because of the minute you think you're

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<v Speaker 2>secure your dot.

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<v Speaker 1>But in addition to working well with America's allies, Hawkins

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<v Speaker 1>also had to win over his own enlisted men, some

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<v Speaker 1>of whom were already on their second tour. Hawkins says,

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<v Speaker 1>there's only one way to earn trust and respect.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, you certainly are anxious, particularly when about

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<v Speaker 2>those whom you lead who have been there. And I

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<v Speaker 2>had Marines in my platoon who had been over. They

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<v Speaker 2>were on their second visit to Vietnam, and so you

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<v Speaker 2>have to prove yourself. You have to remember though, that

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<v Speaker 2>you lead from the front, and you know you take

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<v Speaker 2>care of your troops and you eat less. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you do those things, then generally that you can earn

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<v Speaker 2>their respect. Respect is never just given. Now you can

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<v Speaker 2>assume respect goes with the rank, but over time, in

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<v Speaker 2>a very short period of time, either you'll earn the

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<v Speaker 2>respect of your Marines or troops or you'll lose it.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think it was some of my most

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<v Speaker 2>valuable lessons that I have benefited from came during that

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<v Speaker 2>period of time of service. When I was in the

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<v Speaker 2>Marine Corps, I learned far more than I taught by troops.

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<v Speaker 2>I learned from them.

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<v Speaker 1>And it also means getting your men the stuff they

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<v Speaker 1>need and want. And thanks to some Alabama connections, Hawkins

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<v Speaker 1>was able to accomplish that too.

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<v Speaker 2>The major initiative there was supporting by air. Our airfield

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<v Speaker 2>was there that was sort of the base of operations

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<v Speaker 2>for much of the administrative pieces of the Marine Corps

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<v Speaker 2>and logistics center. In fact, I might tell you that

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<v Speaker 2>we were at the end of the supply line where

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<v Speaker 2>I was with the Koreans. But I had a friend

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<v Speaker 2>who knew from college. He was a fraternity brother and

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<v Speaker 2>also a Marine Corps officer, and he was a supply

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<v Speaker 2>officer and we were communicating, and I told him that

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't get supplies from my marines. And we were

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<v Speaker 2>there not too far from the Americal Division of the Army.

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<v Speaker 2>They had everything, we had nothing, and we would trade

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<v Speaker 2>our sea rats to the extent they would tolerate sea rats.

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<v Speaker 2>They had lurps and you know, better food than we did.

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<v Speaker 2>And so he said, we'll come up and i'll fix

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<v Speaker 2>come to Danang and I'll give you some supplies. And so,

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<v Speaker 2>without any authorization at all, I took a sixth by

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<v Speaker 2>this truck, had my men put a fifty caliber machine

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<v Speaker 2>gun on the back of it, and away we went.

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<v Speaker 2>And without authority, I drove about thirty miles to Danang,

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<v Speaker 2>which I later realized was not only was it naive,

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<v Speaker 2>it was against the rules. But when I got there,

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00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:33.680
<v Speaker 2>my friend really loaded us up with supplies. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>he even threw in a couple of pillows. But when

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<v Speaker 2>we drove into that compound, when my men, my marines

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<v Speaker 2>saw what we had in the back of that truck,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we got a standing applaus for bringing in

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<v Speaker 2>bringing home the goods, so to speak. And so we

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<v Speaker 2>took care of ourselves and what we needed from the

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<v Speaker 2>Army or from the Korean Marines that we had we

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<v Speaker 2>could barter items to trade.

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<v Speaker 1>In just a moment, you'll hear how Hawkins and other

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<v Speaker 1>members of his platoon were injured just weeks after his

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<v Speaker 1>arrival in Vietnam, and another very difficult day for him

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<v Speaker 1>as a leader, and the guilt that came with it.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Greg Corumbus, and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is

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<v Speaker 1>Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in this edition

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<v Speaker 1>is doctor Jack Hawkins, Chancellor of Troy University. He also

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<v Speaker 1>served as a US Marine Corps infantry officer during the

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<v Speaker 1>Vietnam War. As mentioned, Hawkins arrived in Vietnam in April

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<v Speaker 1>of nineteen sixty eight. On May fourth, nineteen sixty eight,

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<v Speaker 1>while trying to detect booby traps while working alongside those

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<v Speaker 1>Korean Marines, his platoon was ambushed.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm afraid that there are some examples of how

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<v Speaker 2>we probably didn't change those patterns sufficiently, because there were

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<v Speaker 2>several examples of ambushes that they knew we were coming,

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<v Speaker 2>they knew generally when where we would be, they knew

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<v Speaker 2>what the circumstances included. For example, I hadn't been in

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<v Speaker 2>country but just a few weeks when it was on

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<v Speaker 2>a mine sweep with had about a reinforced platoon of

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<v Speaker 2>Korean Marines running security for us, and we would sweep

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<v Speaker 2>the road, and our sweep team largely I would be

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<v Speaker 2>in the middle of it, but unfortunately the radio operator

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<v Speaker 2>was close to me and you could see from a

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<v Speaker 2>distance that antenna, which was a dangerous sign because that

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00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.559
<v Speaker 2>was a target. And so we were sweeping, sweeping the

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<v Speaker 2>road and we began to take fire. They knew we

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<v Speaker 2>were going to be on that road about that same time,

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<v Speaker 2>and so there was a tree line to our right

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<v Speaker 2>and we began to take small arms fire, automatic weapons

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<v Speaker 2>fire from the right. And the rice paddy had water

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<v Speaker 2>in it, and so in order to really assess what

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<v Speaker 2>was going on, we jumped to this backside of the berm.

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<v Speaker 2>They did a great job. They planted about eight to

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<v Speaker 2>ten mines along that road, spanned about one hundred feet.

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<v Speaker 2>They worked hard to do that, and you know at night,

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<v Speaker 2>all those mines, those eight to ten mines were connected

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<v Speaker 2>by way of wiring, and probably about one hundred two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred meters to our flank, there was Vietcong or NBA.

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<v Speaker 2>We didn't catch who did it, but who set off

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<v Speaker 2>that those explosives. In course, by this time my platoon

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<v Speaker 2>and those who were with us, the Koreans, were right

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<v Speaker 2>in the middle of all of that, And so that

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<v Speaker 2>was that happened just a few weeks after I got there.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, on May the fourth, nineteen sixty eight, was

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<v Speaker 2>when that occurred. And I don't know that there would

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<v Speaker 2>have been a way to have avoided it. One thing

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<v Speaker 2>that we did as a routine we had hook men

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<v Speaker 2>out on the on the flanks who were dragging these

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<v Speaker 2>hooks trying to find any wires that might be. But

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<v Speaker 2>they must have planted those wires deeply, because we didn't

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<v Speaker 2>find them. And unfortunately, because we didn't find them, we

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<v Speaker 2>wo wound up experiencing what they had planned. They planned

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<v Speaker 2>it very well. And I might say this for the

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<v Speaker 2>most part, where we were south of Denaying and operating

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<v Speaker 2>in that area, in that province, there were a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of Viet Cong. We seldom would see the NBA. On

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<v Speaker 2>occasion we would, but the Viet Cong were everywhere. And

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<v Speaker 2>people may not remember what a Viet Cong was, but

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<v Speaker 2>a viet Cong largely could be a farmer. During the

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<v Speaker 2>day and a soldier at night, and they were formidable.

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<v Speaker 2>They inflicted a lot of casualties because they had the

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<v Speaker 2>benefit of surprise.

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<v Speaker 1>Hawkins says he was dazed and wondering what injuries he

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<v Speaker 1>had sustained when he realized one of his men needed

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<v Speaker 1>his attention far more urgently.

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<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, in the aftermath of that particular experience on May

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<v Speaker 2>the fourth, you know, I couldn't You couldn't hear. I

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't hear it. It cost me part of my hearing,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was at that point I was deaf for

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<v Speaker 2>a period of time, but you couldn't see because of

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<v Speaker 2>all the dust and so forth. And I guess what

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<v Speaker 2>really not to tell too many sea stories here, but

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<v Speaker 2>probably what really brought me back to reality. I looked

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<v Speaker 2>up in my patune sergeant. Half of his foot was

388
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<v Speaker 2>dragging behind him. He had been on top of one

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<v Speaker 2>of those minds or near one of those mines, and

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<v Speaker 2>probably had it not been for him in the situation

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<v Speaker 2>he faced, I don't know how long I would have

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<v Speaker 2>just lay there, but when I saw him I had

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00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:50.200
<v Speaker 2>to immediately react to that put him off that road,

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<v Speaker 2>and that helped me to be more concerned about my

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00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:57.079
<v Speaker 2>troops than myself. I think that was a good leadership

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<v Speaker 2>lesson too. You know, you often learned through your stakes.

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<v Speaker 2>Fortunately I didn't have the time to make the mistake

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00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.720
<v Speaker 2>of just thinking about myself. But it was that young

399
00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:11.839
<v Speaker 2>sergeant in his situation that brought me back to where

400
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:12.599
<v Speaker 2>I should have been.

401
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<v Speaker 1>Less than one month into his deployment, Hawkins earned his

402
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<v Speaker 1>first Purple Heart. He would receive one more, although he

403
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:23.000
<v Speaker 1>says the circumstances of the second one were not nearly

404
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.720
<v Speaker 1>as intense as the first. In fact, Hawkins says he's

405
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.759
<v Speaker 1>more sheepish about acknowledging that one.

406
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<v Speaker 2>It was not a typical sort of thing, and frankly

407
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:37.799
<v Speaker 2>it was more humorous than it was injurious And several

408
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:43.480
<v Speaker 2>months later I was walking across this French made bridge,

409
00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:46.839
<v Speaker 2>had left my weapon on one end, had some troops

410
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:50.440
<v Speaker 2>on either end of it, and from a tree line

411
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:56.119
<v Speaker 2>they opened up on me, and in the process of

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00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.519
<v Speaker 2>moving for cover behind the columns of the bridge, I

413
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.480
<v Speaker 2>fell off the bridge with all that momentum and fell

414
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<v Speaker 2>about twenty feet into a bed of rocks, cracked my kneecap,

415
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.559
<v Speaker 2>ruined my elbow for many months, and they penned a

416
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:14.440
<v Speaker 2>second purple heart on me for that which I was

417
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:17.960
<v Speaker 2>never never really knew if I wanted to wear it

418
00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:20.960
<v Speaker 2>or not, but because that was of my own doing.

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<v Speaker 1>Following his injuries, Hawkins was reassigned to jobs he did

420
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<v Speaker 1>not enjoy as much and asked to be named a

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<v Speaker 1>platoon commander again. His higher ups had just the assignment

422
00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:34.960
<v Speaker 1>for him, restoring order to a platoon that had lost

423
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:37.759
<v Speaker 1>its focus and needed to get its priorities straight.

424
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:40.079
<v Speaker 2>Then they pulled me to the rear and I had

425
00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:44.400
<v Speaker 2>a battalion assignment. Didn't like it was in battalion there

426
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:49.160
<v Speaker 2>shoelafe for about six six weeks maybe two months, and

427
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:52.039
<v Speaker 2>I went to my battalion commander and I told him that,

428
00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:55.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, I wanted another platoon. And he had a

429
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:01.400
<v Speaker 2>situation with the Segon Battalion, first Marines near Da Dang.

430
00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:04.559
<v Speaker 2>He said, if you want a platoon, I give you

431
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:09.319
<v Speaker 2>a platoon. We have a situation with two to one

432
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:14.160
<v Speaker 2>where our platoon leaders has become too familiar with the troops.

433
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:17.680
<v Speaker 2>He said, he's lost his platform and we're having to

434
00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:20.640
<v Speaker 2>relieve him. And so he said, if you want that platoon,

435
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:22.720
<v Speaker 2>I'll give it to you. And I said okay. And

436
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.680
<v Speaker 2>so I went up there and quickly discovered, you know,

437
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:30.559
<v Speaker 2>the source of the problems there. And I think that

438
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:34.799
<v Speaker 2>it was a familiarity breeds contempt. And you can't be

439
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:39.359
<v Speaker 2>so arrogant or egotistical that you can't become part of

440
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:43.000
<v Speaker 2>the unit. But you can't give way to that familiarity

441
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:47.839
<v Speaker 2>because hard decisions, you can't be that close. It's mission first,

442
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:50.480
<v Speaker 2>and that's another thing that we learned through training that

443
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:54.720
<v Speaker 2>has helped me throughout life. Mission first, people a close second.

444
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:57.759
<v Speaker 2>But if you ever subordinate your mission to your people,

445
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:01.640
<v Speaker 2>then you probably are making them miss because sometimes those

446
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:06.319
<v Speaker 2>hard decisions require people who follow, are not standing just

447
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:09.880
<v Speaker 2>besides you, but follow. And so I had that was

448
00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:13.519
<v Speaker 2>a unique experience. I'd had a great platoon UH in

449
00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:17.119
<v Speaker 2>the third herd and UH, and when I watched this

450
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:21.480
<v Speaker 2>group throughout an afternoon realized what some of the problems were.

451
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.240
<v Speaker 2>I gathered them and UH and said, well, you know,

452
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:28.880
<v Speaker 2>I gave them my guadal Cadal speech. You may be

453
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:31.720
<v Speaker 2>of different race, you may be of different background, but

454
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:34.160
<v Speaker 2>we are all Marines and we're going to act like it.

455
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:38.000
<v Speaker 2>And there's no more uh, no more this and that.

456
00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:40.240
<v Speaker 2>I won't get into the details of all of that.

457
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:43.000
<v Speaker 2>But uh and, I said, and if you have been

458
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:46.839
<v Speaker 2>engaged or involved in in drugs. And by that time,

459
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:49.559
<v Speaker 2>when I got to Vietnam, I never saw any drugs,

460
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:51.559
<v Speaker 2>and out in the field, I never saw very much.

461
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:55.720
<v Speaker 2>But this was more of a battalion situation. And uh

462
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.920
<v Speaker 2>and and I detected that there was some drug use,

463
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.079
<v Speaker 2>especially marijuana, and I sort of laid down the law

464
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.079
<v Speaker 2>that that was gonna and that was not tolerated. I said,

465
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:09.400
<v Speaker 2>if you want to be part of this unit. Well,

466
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:13.079
<v Speaker 2>not everybody agreed with that. It took me several days

467
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:16.880
<v Speaker 2>to get rid of some of those troublemakers, and I

468
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:19.559
<v Speaker 2>found some of the most interesting places to send them

469
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:22.079
<v Speaker 2>that I could find. And after that we had a

470
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:26.559
<v Speaker 2>model platoon. They almost reflected the conduct and behavior and

471
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:28.200
<v Speaker 2>decorum of the Third Herd.

472
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:31.240
<v Speaker 1>But while the mission remained the top priority, commanding a

473
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:33.960
<v Speaker 1>platoon again also means taking care of your men as

474
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:38.720
<v Speaker 1>much as possible. Hawkins described another deadly moment and a

475
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:42.480
<v Speaker 1>decision he regretted in the moment and also stayed with

476
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:43.680
<v Speaker 1>him long afterwards.

477
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:48.799
<v Speaker 2>Drawing sniper fire. Mortar fire was a common as almost

478
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:53.839
<v Speaker 2>a daily experience, and on one particular occasion in September,

479
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:58.559
<v Speaker 2>we were sweeping the road and getting back to patterns

480
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:03.799
<v Speaker 2>and having to be concerned about that. We had swept

481
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:07.920
<v Speaker 2>up to a village. We began taking small arms fire,

482
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:14.200
<v Speaker 2>and of course that required required a response. But in

483
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:17.240
<v Speaker 2>the middle of this mind sweep team, we would have

484
00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:21.440
<v Speaker 2>this truck this sixth by, and on that sixth by

485
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:23.920
<v Speaker 2>you'd have mounted you'd have two or three marines on

486
00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the back of that truck, and you'd have a machine

487
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.799
<v Speaker 2>gun or fifty caliber machine gun mounted there. They began

488
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.680
<v Speaker 2>firing back towards end of this tree line, but then

489
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.839
<v Speaker 2>it subsided. The truck went into the village to turn around,

490
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:40.920
<v Speaker 2>and I noticed at the last minute there that there

491
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.440
<v Speaker 2>was a school where this driver was turning into. But

492
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:49.400
<v Speaker 2>there were no children, and that was rather unusual. And

493
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:53.079
<v Speaker 2>before I could get to or stop this driver from

494
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.039
<v Speaker 2>turning into that driveway under the school grounds to back

495
00:29:57.079 --> 00:30:00.880
<v Speaker 2>his truck up, so we marched south, he hit a

496
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:04.920
<v Speaker 2>mine and that killed several marines who were on that

497
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:07.880
<v Speaker 2>truck nearby. In fact, I had a corman who was

498
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.720
<v Speaker 2>on the who had jumped up. I told him twice

499
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:13.640
<v Speaker 2>to get off that running board, but his buddy was

500
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.440
<v Speaker 2>driving the truck, and immediately Doc was blown about fifty

501
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:21.079
<v Speaker 2>feet away and instantly killed. It. Blew the driver out

502
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:23.519
<v Speaker 2>about fifty feet and blew the bend off the back

503
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:27.200
<v Speaker 2>end of the sixth by, and a couple of those

504
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:31.200
<v Speaker 2>guys were killed. Blew one across the road into a

505
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:33.599
<v Speaker 2>rice paddy. Now, fortunately there was some water in that

506
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:38.839
<v Speaker 2>rice paddy and he emerged. But my driver, when I

507
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:41.960
<v Speaker 2>got to him, he was walking back. Most of his

508
00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:45.960
<v Speaker 2>clothing was blown off, and he was just a walking

509
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:50.279
<v Speaker 2>zombie at that point. Great man, but he survived. He

510
00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:54.599
<v Speaker 2>suffered probably seventy five percent burns over his body, having

511
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.160
<v Speaker 2>been blown out of that driver's seat onto the road,

512
00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:01.960
<v Speaker 2>and with his skin dripping off of his arms. He

513
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:05.319
<v Speaker 2>came back towards me, and I'll never forget. When we

514
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:09.119
<v Speaker 2>called in that metavac, two things happened. I hate to

515
00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:12.799
<v Speaker 2>say this about my Marine Corps, but we started taking

516
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:17.640
<v Speaker 2>incoming again, and I called in metovac to extract these

517
00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:21.640
<v Speaker 2>wounded men and the bodies. My Marine Corps helicopter came

518
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:24.519
<v Speaker 2>in but began taking fire, and so he took off,

519
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:29.119
<v Speaker 2>and so I resorted to calling medical crew from the

520
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.079
<v Speaker 2>m a er Cayle Division and an Army helicopter came in.

521
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:38.519
<v Speaker 2>And I have great respect for those Army pilots who

522
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:42.720
<v Speaker 2>flew those hues. Most of them were eighteen twenty twenty

523
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.279
<v Speaker 2>two years old. They knew no fear, at least most

524
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:49.599
<v Speaker 2>of them didn't, and they were worth They were very

525
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:53.839
<v Speaker 2>valuable in that situation. He brought that helicopter in. We

526
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:58.240
<v Speaker 2>were able to put those men on that helicopter. And

527
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:02.880
<v Speaker 2>this man, Zach is his last name. He's still alive.

528
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:05.920
<v Speaker 2>When I put him on that helicopter, I never thought

529
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:09.319
<v Speaker 2>he would survive. He was even sticking to the base

530
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:14.160
<v Speaker 2>of the helicopter. But thanks to quality health care in

531
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:19.920
<v Speaker 2>forty operations later, he came out. He was married, had children.

532
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:23.160
<v Speaker 1>There's nothing harder than losing the menu fight with shoulder

533
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:26.720
<v Speaker 1>to shoulder, Hawkins freely admits he learned more from them

534
00:32:26.920 --> 00:32:29.799
<v Speaker 1>than they did from him, but he also says his

535
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:33.200
<v Speaker 1>time in the Marine Corps opened his eyes to something

536
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:35.160
<v Speaker 1>he had never realized back home.

537
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:38.480
<v Speaker 2>I never went to an integrated school. You know. We

538
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.599
<v Speaker 2>grew up in a segregated South and so I had

539
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:45.200
<v Speaker 2>little or no contact with minorities. Even when I went

540
00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:48.200
<v Speaker 2>to the basic school in Quantico, there were four hundred

541
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:52.599
<v Speaker 2>second lieutenants, and it was not totally integrated. We had

542
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:55.720
<v Speaker 2>some from Hispanic backgrounds, but to my knowledge, we didn't

543
00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:59.279
<v Speaker 2>have one African American in that battalion or that company

544
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:02.839
<v Speaker 2>of Marines. And so it was not until I arrived

545
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:07.920
<v Speaker 2>in Vietnam that I had any real involvement with people

546
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.799
<v Speaker 2>of different races. I had known a couple of international

547
00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:16.720
<v Speaker 2>students in undergraduate school, but even then we were more segregated.

548
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:19.960
<v Speaker 2>And so I think what I learned from early in

549
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.880
<v Speaker 2>that experience in Vietnam, where twenty five percent of my

550
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.640
<v Speaker 2>troops with African American, about fifteen percent we're either Hispanic

551
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:30.839
<v Speaker 2>or we had a couple of Asians of that background,

552
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:34.960
<v Speaker 2>but about sixty percent were Caucasians. But when that first

553
00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:39.160
<v Speaker 2>round goes off, you don't really care what race or background.

554
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:42.720
<v Speaker 2>You care about each other. And I think, while it

555
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:45.680
<v Speaker 2>might be a worn out phrase, all blood flows red.

556
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:50.759
<v Speaker 2>And I think that experience in Vietnam changed my perspective.

557
00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:55.599
<v Speaker 2>Not only did I gain a perspective of the global community,

558
00:33:55.640 --> 00:34:00.359
<v Speaker 2>but also gained a perspective and the appreciation for looking

559
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:05.000
<v Speaker 2>beyond race, looking beyond backgrounds, you know, looking to the person.

560
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:09.320
<v Speaker 1>That's doctor Jack Hawkins, Chancellor of Troy University in Alabama.

561
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:12.719
<v Speaker 1>He served as a US Marine Corps infantry officer and

562
00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:16.400
<v Speaker 1>platoon commander during the Vietnam War. When we come back,

563
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:20.119
<v Speaker 1>doctor Hawkins moves from the military into the academic world,

564
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:24.360
<v Speaker 1>and within a few decades he was right back in Vietnam.

565
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:28.920
<v Speaker 1>That story is next. I'm Greg Corumbus and this is

566
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:34.480
<v Speaker 1>Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our

567
00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:37.559
<v Speaker 1>guest in this edition is doctor Jack Hawkins. He's the

568
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:42.320
<v Speaker 1>chancellor of Troy University in Troy, Alabama. He also served

569
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.199
<v Speaker 1>as a platoon commander in the US Marine Corps during

570
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:49.719
<v Speaker 1>the Vietnam War. Hawkins came home from Vietnam in nineteen

571
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:53.800
<v Speaker 1>sixty nine. Before long, he was back in school, and

572
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.760
<v Speaker 1>soon he realized he wanted to stay on campus working

573
00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:00.719
<v Speaker 1>in higher education. He eventually found his way to Troy University.

574
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:04.599
<v Speaker 1>The schools respect for our military and commitment to traditional

575
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:08.559
<v Speaker 1>values led to educational opportunities for Troy students around the

576
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:12.920
<v Speaker 1>world and for international students to come to Troy. And

577
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.920
<v Speaker 1>that's how Hawkins ended up back in Vietnam and creating

578
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:20.519
<v Speaker 1>a professional partnership with a former Vietcong.

579
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Troy University is a pretty conservative place. It's a flag

580
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:29.800
<v Speaker 2>waving place. It's a place where values are important. The

581
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.440
<v Speaker 2>culture is important. I often tell our Board of Trustees

582
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:36.880
<v Speaker 2>and our faculty and staff, our most important responsibility is

583
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:40.320
<v Speaker 2>the preservation of this culture. A lot of higher education

584
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:44.119
<v Speaker 2>in this country has gone far to the left, and

585
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:45.320
<v Speaker 2>Troy is not like that.

586
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:45.840
<v Speaker 1>Troy.

587
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:51.360
<v Speaker 2>If those who serve are important to Troy University, we

588
00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:55.440
<v Speaker 2>recognize them. We just do everything we can to support them.

589
00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:59.159
<v Speaker 2>But it's been that way for many, many years. My predecessor,

590
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:04.000
<v Speaker 2>doctor half Adams, served and he was a brigadier general

591
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.480
<v Speaker 2>in the Air Force and retired, and he carried us

592
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:13.639
<v Speaker 2>to Europe through add contract in nineteen seventy four. Well,

593
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.599
<v Speaker 2>we had been on bases in this country. We were

594
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:20.159
<v Speaker 2>at Fort Rucker now Fort Novsel, we were over at

595
00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:23.199
<v Speaker 2>Fort Benning, we were at Maxwell Air Force Base. But

596
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:27.000
<v Speaker 2>it was the international piece started in nineteen seventy four,

597
00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.920
<v Speaker 2>and when I arrived in Troy, that was all in place.

598
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:34.320
<v Speaker 2>We were in ten countries, twenty six military bases. I

599
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.639
<v Speaker 2>found that really attracting, and that was one reason I

600
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:40.079
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be part of Troy. So when they offered

601
00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:44.119
<v Speaker 2>me the position, of course I was accepted it. But

602
00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:47.719
<v Speaker 2>when the Berlin Wall came down, the Soviet Union fell apart,

603
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:52.760
<v Speaker 2>this country downsized troop strength in Europe by two thirds,

604
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:55.519
<v Speaker 2>and so there was no longer a presence required for

605
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:59.880
<v Speaker 2>us serving those men and women in uniform. We began

606
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.280
<v Speaker 2>to look to the future, and we saw the future

607
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:05.239
<v Speaker 2>more in Asia than we did in Europe, and so

608
00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:09.400
<v Speaker 2>it was then that we began we had a three

609
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:14.639
<v Speaker 2>three prong strategy. The first was to bring Troy or

610
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:18.320
<v Speaker 2>the world to Troy. We began to recruit international students.

611
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:21.639
<v Speaker 2>We only had forty international students on our main campus

612
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.639
<v Speaker 2>before COVID we had seventy five countries represented in over

613
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:29.760
<v Speaker 2>four hundred students from China alone. So we changed the

614
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:32.440
<v Speaker 2>culture of the university. There was a much more diverse

615
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:35.719
<v Speaker 2>and today there is a much more diverse student body

616
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:40.400
<v Speaker 2>than we had back then. We also, though committed ourselves

617
00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:43.000
<v Speaker 2>to continuing to plant the flag. We may not be

618
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:46.440
<v Speaker 2>throughout Europe like we had once worked, but there are

619
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:50.000
<v Speaker 2>markets and places we needed to serve in Asia. And

620
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:52.519
<v Speaker 2>then the third, of course, is a study of broad peace,

621
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:54.880
<v Speaker 2>which we try to encourage all of our students. But

622
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.639
<v Speaker 2>it was that second piece, planning our flag abroad that

623
00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:03.079
<v Speaker 2>carried me to Vietnam. And we were already in places

624
00:38:03.159 --> 00:38:06.880
<v Speaker 2>like China and Malaysia. But in Vietnam I was invited

625
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:11.039
<v Speaker 2>in O one I turned it down. That's how strongly

626
00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:14.840
<v Speaker 2>I felt about Vietnam. But in two I was invited

627
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:18.280
<v Speaker 2>again and decided to go. And it was a totally

628
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:21.639
<v Speaker 2>different country. The Vietnam that I left was not the

629
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:24.639
<v Speaker 2>Vietnam that I encountered when I went back in two,

630
00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:29.320
<v Speaker 2>I didn't see resentment. I didn't see very many examples

631
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:33.039
<v Speaker 2>of where the war had destroyed the country or the people. Now,

632
00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:35.239
<v Speaker 2>there were a lot of those when you look beyond

633
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.760
<v Speaker 2>the pale, you could see, but it was a different country.

634
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.000
<v Speaker 2>And so we went to Hanoi first, believe it or not.

635
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:46.000
<v Speaker 2>In fact, my first hotel room overlooked what has become

636
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:48.880
<v Speaker 2>known is the Hanoi Hilton. I could have thrown a

637
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:51.519
<v Speaker 2>stone out of my hotel room and hit the roof

638
00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:55.000
<v Speaker 2>of that prison where John McCain and all those great

639
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:58.880
<v Speaker 2>men were imprisoned all those years. And so we set

640
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:02.400
<v Speaker 2>up programs with parts universities. We don't build buildings, we

641
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:06.159
<v Speaker 2>build partnerships, and so we set up programs. We're in

642
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:10.440
<v Speaker 2>partnership with two universities in Hanoi. We went down to

643
00:39:10.519 --> 00:39:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Saigon now the name was changed to Ho Chi Minh City,

644
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:17.719
<v Speaker 2>set up an academic program or programs there, and things

645
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:21.039
<v Speaker 2>began to really develop. In two thousand and eight, Troy

646
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.480
<v Speaker 2>became the first American university to ever award the bachelor's

647
00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:30.079
<v Speaker 2>degree in Vietnam. The years passed, twenty seventeen, I was

648
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:32.679
<v Speaker 2>invited to have dinner while I was in country for

649
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:37.400
<v Speaker 2>a graduation ceremony to go to Dunang. Of course, you know,

650
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:40.360
<v Speaker 2>I was always interested in going back to d Nang,

651
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:42.719
<v Speaker 2>and so I went back to d Nang and had

652
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:47.000
<v Speaker 2>dinner with this gentleman who had started a private university.

653
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:49.800
<v Speaker 2>It is known as Dewey Kan University. Today it's the

654
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:54.280
<v Speaker 2>number one private university in that country. He established that

655
00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:58.199
<v Speaker 2>university in nineteen ninety four, so it's been thirty years.

656
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:03.679
<v Speaker 2>They just celebrated the thirtieth anniversary. What I learned over dinner, though,

657
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:06.880
<v Speaker 2>and it may have been the most interesting conversation I've

658
00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:10.440
<v Speaker 2>ever had. I learned that he had fought as a

659
00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:14.239
<v Speaker 2>Viet Cong. And what I later learned was that not

660
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:16.679
<v Speaker 2>only had he fought as a vit Kan soldier, but

661
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:20.320
<v Speaker 2>he was considered a national hero, and so that gave

662
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:25.000
<v Speaker 2>him some leverage when he attempted to start this private university.

663
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:28.400
<v Speaker 2>And I found it so interesting and almost a paradox

664
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.159
<v Speaker 2>that here we were two men who had fought on

665
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:36.119
<v Speaker 2>opposite sides of the battlefield coming together to talk about

666
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:40.280
<v Speaker 2>a partnership which would unite our universities well based on

667
00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:45.400
<v Speaker 2>the year's fifteen years experience we had. I knew it

668
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:48.000
<v Speaker 2>could be done. We had done it well in other places,

669
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:52.320
<v Speaker 2>and so we launched a partnership and it has worked beautifully.

670
00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:55.760
<v Speaker 2>He has a great university. I've gotten to know him.

671
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:58.039
<v Speaker 2>His name is doctor Lei khan Co.

672
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:01.400
<v Speaker 1>Going back to Vietnam was opening for Hawkins, both in

673
00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:05.920
<v Speaker 1>terms of education and how different Vietnam was decades after

674
00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:10.320
<v Speaker 1>he served there. Hawkins says, the advancements in Vietnam are

675
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:11.280
<v Speaker 1>very impressive.

676
00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:14.960
<v Speaker 2>We have over two thousand graduates in Vietnam. They're in

677
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:20.639
<v Speaker 2>responsible positions, rising executives with Samsung, with nonprofits like the

678
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:25.119
<v Speaker 2>Helen Keller Foundation, et cetera, et cetera. And we have

679
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:28.159
<v Speaker 2>about twelve hundred students on the ground and a growing

680
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:32.639
<v Speaker 2>population of students. Many of those students want the American experience,

681
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.639
<v Speaker 2>and so those who are able to afford it come

682
00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:38.920
<v Speaker 2>to Troy. We have over one hundred students from Vietnam

683
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:42.000
<v Speaker 2>on this campus, the majority of who started with us

684
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:45.920
<v Speaker 2>in Vietnam. But because of a curriculum that allows matriculation

685
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:49.719
<v Speaker 2>without the loss of credits, if you begin in a

686
00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:53.039
<v Speaker 2>computer science program in day Nay, you can finish in

687
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:56.159
<v Speaker 2>the computer science program in Troy. And so it's a

688
00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:01.199
<v Speaker 2>highly articulated program that opens doors for students who have

689
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:05.000
<v Speaker 2>that desire, and most do. I think I would summarize

690
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:07.960
<v Speaker 2>all of that by saying, the people in Vietnam have

691
00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:12.719
<v Speaker 2>a deep appreciation for Americans, and I believe our appreciation

692
00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:15.679
<v Speaker 2>for Vietnam is growing in America. When I was there

693
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:19.840
<v Speaker 2>this fall, what I also witnessed was a lot of

694
00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:24.679
<v Speaker 2>manufacturing being shifted from China down to Vietnam. And so

695
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:28.360
<v Speaker 2>the business community is really getting involved, and I think

696
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:31.679
<v Speaker 2>we'll see we'll see a lot more of the free

697
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:34.639
<v Speaker 2>market system in Vietnam than you'll see in any other

698
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:39.880
<v Speaker 2>communist country. Governmentally, they may be called communists, but the

699
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:44.079
<v Speaker 2>young people we serve in the communities throughout that country.

700
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:47.599
<v Speaker 2>They want to know how this free market system works

701
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:49.280
<v Speaker 2>and they want to be part of it.

702
00:42:49.480 --> 00:42:52.239
<v Speaker 1>The friendship Howkins struck up with the Viet Cong fighter

703
00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:56.639
<v Speaker 1>turned university president also took on a new dimension a

704
00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:59.920
<v Speaker 1>documentary focused on the importance of reconciliation.

705
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:03.719
<v Speaker 2>Now, doctor lay Conko is the founder of that university

706
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:07.400
<v Speaker 2>and is the president of that university. Has two children

707
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:11.320
<v Speaker 2>who adore him, doctor Hong Ley who is a daughter,

708
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:15.039
<v Speaker 2>and doctor Bao Lay the son, and both are involved

709
00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:18.159
<v Speaker 2>with the university. But just to give you how an

710
00:43:18.199 --> 00:43:21.559
<v Speaker 2>idea of how the world has changed. The daughter of

711
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:26.519
<v Speaker 2>lay kan Ko came to America and she lived for

712
00:43:26.599 --> 00:43:31.079
<v Speaker 2>twenty years in Washington, State of Washington. She's married and

713
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:36.280
<v Speaker 2>now recently I hear from her regularly. She lives in Amsterdam.

714
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:39.920
<v Speaker 2>But her son plays GoF at the University of Washington,

715
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:47.199
<v Speaker 2>and the son, Biolay, is still in Da Nang. The

716
00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:50.159
<v Speaker 2>reason I give you that background they revere their dad.

717
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:53.760
<v Speaker 2>So it was about two years ago now almost three

718
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:56.320
<v Speaker 2>years about two and a half years ago, they commissioned

719
00:43:56.599 --> 00:44:01.280
<v Speaker 2>a film company out of Danang to capture the story

720
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:06.000
<v Speaker 2>that they were witnessing with particularly the life of their dad.

721
00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:10.679
<v Speaker 2>Their primary desire was to capture the story of their

722
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:15.239
<v Speaker 2>dad so that the family could preserve that the memories

723
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.039
<v Speaker 2>in the history of this man. He's now eighty four

724
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:22.159
<v Speaker 2>years old, and so you know, they wanted to do

725
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:24.320
<v Speaker 2>it as quickly as they could, and so this film

726
00:44:24.360 --> 00:44:28.320
<v Speaker 2>crew got involved in it. They even came to Troy

727
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:32.239
<v Speaker 2>University and did a lot of footage. But it was

728
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.480
<v Speaker 2>for the family. It was never for public consumption, and

729
00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:38.280
<v Speaker 2>so the but it went. They sent it through the

730
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:44.679
<v Speaker 2>censorship process in Vietnam and the government approved it for airing.

731
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:49.320
<v Speaker 2>It aired in the Central Highlands in December of twenty three,

732
00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:51.639
<v Speaker 2>and it was so well received that they aired it

733
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:56.239
<v Speaker 2>over national television in January. And it was during the

734
00:44:56.280 --> 00:45:00.880
<v Speaker 2>airing of that documentary in January that President, the former

735
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:05.320
<v Speaker 2>president of Vietnam called doctor hang Ley and said she

736
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.280
<v Speaker 2>was in country when he called her in Vietnam, and

737
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:11.880
<v Speaker 2>he said that not only should the people of Vietnam

738
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:15.920
<v Speaker 2>see this, but the people of America see this. You know.

739
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:18.360
<v Speaker 2>He went on to emphasize that it was not as

740
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:22.920
<v Speaker 2>much about war as it was about war breeding, reconciliation

741
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:26.840
<v Speaker 2>and its reconciliation and a partnership that was born of

742
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:31.480
<v Speaker 2>a war. And the family put the label on the film,

743
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:35.880
<v Speaker 2>the documentary and it's beyond a war. But the magic

744
00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:38.679
<v Speaker 2>and power is really in the subtitle where it says

745
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:44.800
<v Speaker 2>wars begin and end, but love lasts forever, or relationships

746
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:49.119
<v Speaker 2>last forever, as it might be interpreted. It was released

747
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:54.519
<v Speaker 2>to America the Vietnam Veterans Board in Washington approved endorse

748
00:45:54.679 --> 00:45:58.159
<v Speaker 2>this documentary. That all the members of the board apparently

749
00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:02.280
<v Speaker 2>watched the documentary and they they approved it and encouraged

750
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, Americans to see it. It didn't premiere though

751
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:09.119
<v Speaker 2>in America until September the twenty ninth of this past

752
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:13.079
<v Speaker 2>year in Montgomery, and then it was shown over public

753
00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:18.440
<v Speaker 2>television in Alabama, and now it's being marketed for public television,

754
00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:22.400
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and you know, and other outlets so people can

755
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:30.239
<v Speaker 2>see this documentary which is about reconciliation. And when I

756
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:33.440
<v Speaker 2>what I've been asked, what's the value of it? I

757
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:36.639
<v Speaker 2>think about the division in America that we've experienced in

758
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:41.119
<v Speaker 2>recent years, and how real leadership is about bringing people together,

759
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:46.000
<v Speaker 2>and what we need in America today is unity more

760
00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:49.039
<v Speaker 2>than we've ever needed it. And I think if as

761
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:53.000
<v Speaker 2>a good example of reconciliation, if we can resolve between

762
00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:56.360
<v Speaker 2>countries that were once at war, surely we can resolve

763
00:46:56.440 --> 00:47:01.960
<v Speaker 2>differences within our political structure, within our communities of this country.

764
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.920
<v Speaker 2>And so it's a demonstration of what can be if

765
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.400
<v Speaker 2>you've work together and focus on the future. It's stay

766
00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:10.679
<v Speaker 2>focused on what's good for humanity.

767
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:15.400
<v Speaker 1>That's doctor Jack Hawkins, Chancellor of Troy University in Troy, Alabama.

768
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Since taking on that role, he created the Troy for

769
00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:23.119
<v Speaker 1>Troops program, which assists military affiliated students. He's also been

770
00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:26.800
<v Speaker 1>named Alabama's Citizen of the Year, and he received the

771
00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:30.559
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty four Armed Forces Merit Award for his work

772
00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:35.119
<v Speaker 1>with the military and in advancing college athletics. The documentary

773
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:39.719
<v Speaker 1>he mentioned is entitled Beyond a War. I'm Greg Corumbus

774
00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:53.480
<v Speaker 1>and this is Veterans Chronicles. Hi, this is Greg Corumbus,

775
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:57.079
<v Speaker 1>and thanks for listening to Veterans Chronicles, a presentation of

776
00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:01.440
<v Speaker 1>the American Veterans Center. For more information, please visit American

777
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:05.880
<v Speaker 1>Veteranscenter dot org. You can also follow the American Veterans

778
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:10.320
<v Speaker 1>Center on Facebook and on Twitter. We're at AVC update.

779
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:14.320
<v Speaker 1>Subscribe to the American Veterans Center YouTube channel for full

780
00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:18.639
<v Speaker 1>oral histories and special features, and of course please subscribe

781
00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:22.440
<v Speaker 1>to the Veterans Chronicles podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

782
00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:25.679
<v Speaker 1>Thanks again for listening, and please join us next time

783
00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:27.199
<v Speaker 1>for Veterans Chronicles