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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show,

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part eleven of the Cold War series.

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Speaker 2: How are you doing, Thomas, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Doing very well man. Thank you for that you're hosting

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me as always today. I UH an aspect of the

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the later Cold War that that's been kind of neglected

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by a lot of historians. There's one guy in particular.

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His name is Mark Ambinder. It's kind of hard to

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put his politics on the map on some uh and

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some just take some kind of neo connage, something kind

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of like paleoliberal even called like Walter Mondale type liberal.

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He's become something of a presidential historian. He wrote a

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book called The Brink, which was about which is about

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the ABE. It's it's about about half it's about like

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the Able Archer War scare, and the rest is kind

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of about nuclear command and control in the final phase

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of the Cold War, and you know the deeper parodies

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they're in and kind of how this informed policy. And

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it's really fascinating book. But it's about the only guy

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I can think of who's written a dedicated book about

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like the post they taught pre Perastrika Cold War, which

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I don't really understand because that's tremendously important. A lot

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of the technologies we take for granted just in day

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to day life, you know, telecom stuff, it literally like

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came out of that epoch. I mean, this stuff was

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in people's contemplation, you know, in a research and development

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capacity for decades before to it. But the perfection of

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those things, you know, I mean, including the Internet, you know,

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the survivable command and control platform. I mean, this stuff

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all came out of like late Cold War, you know,

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strategic planning, and the degree to which the potentiality of

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and preparation for a general nuclear war kind of shaped

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American life in ways prosaic and profound that really can't

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be overstated. You know, I've people people under about forty five,

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they don't remember that, and even some people are older,

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it didn't like impact them in their daily life in

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concrete terms. So they think I'm overstating it, but I'm not.

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And if you look at the structure of the US government,

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you know, as I'm always coming back to this point,

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it's quite literally like structured to wage the Cold War

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and not much else. And the strategic nuclear dimension of

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that obviously became pre eminent owing to technological and existential realities.

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But you know, what I'm getting at is that this

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is not just some kind of like esoteric, like peculiar

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point of interest these people who you know, right, and

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it's big. It's big not to write about the deep

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State in varying capacities. You know, I guess, I guess

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because uh, William Cristal or whatever like you know, in

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guys of that kind of ilk to right for those

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kinds of publications, because you know, they since they've started

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like banging the term in like the last like five

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ten years now, it's like okay to do so. So

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you know, people write about these things, you know, in

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a very kind of contemporary way. But it's like, okay,

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if you want to understand the Deep State, you've got

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to understand the late Cold War. You know. It's that

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that's that's that's that's why these things exist. I mean

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they some some aspects are are emphasized more than others,

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and you know, in some kind attract budgetary pork more

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than others, you know, in the Postpullar wrapp Buck obviously,

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and like there's been cosmetic changes to a lot of

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these things, but that's just what they are. They're cosmetic changes.

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You know, they they came out of, they came out

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of the uh, the Cold War, and specif they came

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out of the strategic nuclear UH paradigm that uh, you know,

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the regime was was structured to UH wage what's anyway

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post Vietnam. I'm of the belief, uh from you know,

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seventy three to to UH to eighty three approximately, grenade

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Grenado was a was a was a big moral victory

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in addition, you know, being tactically significant in ways that

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I think most people don't really consider. I don't want

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to get into that yet, but the point being, let's

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say seventy three to eighty two, perhaps, I'm of the

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belief America was actively losing the Cold War militarily, Okay,

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politically no, in terms of values if you will, and

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and and and legitimacy, no, But that didn't really matter

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because the bad in the you know, the Cold War

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was the battle of hearts and minds after the after

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the nineteen fifties, I mean realistically out with the exception

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of Germany, which was owing the unfortunate accident of geography

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and geostrategic reality, you know, they they they had to

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fight a way to deal with the Soviet Union and

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the Communists, but no nobody in Europe. Nobody in Europe

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in the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties was like, you

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know what we want, we want to Marxist Lenini state,

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we want we want to live like people do in

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the East Bloc. Like nobody thought that way, okay, And

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nobody in the developed world that you know, in North

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Asia thought that way. People who did think that way

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were in subsear and Africa, in Latin America, in the

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Middle East, you know, and in the Global South. This

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was still very much an animating principle, okay, and it

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could be foreseen pretty easily. It's like, okay, it doesn't

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matter if you know, in in the world in nineteen

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eighty three, you know, it was clear to everybody, and

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you know, kind of in in the free in the

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developed free world, that the Stalinist states just generated a

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lot of misery, created economies of shortage, you know, didn't

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deliver on these promises of of Tulluric utopia and you

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know plenty and really were just kind of uh, you know,

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miserable places to live that didn't matter, like it was

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foreseeable that you know, America could become this kind of

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garrison state literally surrounded by a third world you know,

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including you know, including Mexico and in Latin America that

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basically was solidly in the Soviet Camp, was animated by

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a revolutionary impulse towards Marcus Leninism, and uh, you know,

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the United States basically you know what like like like

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meaningful inner dependence as you know, economic or otherwise would

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would would just be cut off, okay, and the only

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meaningful currency would be, you know, the ability to project

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military power. But again, you know, if if if the

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global South and similarly situated developing states were pretty much

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all in the Soviet camp, you know, the ability to

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the ability to project hard power would have been profoundly

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compromised too. So it was foreseeable again, you know, like

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that's that's kind of like what Millis was getting out

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the Red Dawn scenario. Like, yeah, it was silly to

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you know, to to envision you know, Spetsna's parashooting into

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Colorado Springs and shooting up the local high school. But

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the political map that he kind of envisioned like an

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intro where it's like, you know, West Germany becomes this,

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you know West Germany with draws NATO because it's green,

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and so them government you know, decides to like just

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go all into the Soviet Union. NATO falls apart, the

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global South goes all in with Ivan, you know, so

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that you have like America kind of standing alone, you know,

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with a couple of remaining states like the UK and

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Australia that you know, really are kind of you know,

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not meaningful powers in their own right. And you know,

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it's it's it's a red world with America as kind

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of this is literally this like Garrison, Okay, I mean

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that was the real risk. By the late Cold War,

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post Vietnam, it wasn't that it didn't matter that you know,

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Marxist Lenini is Marxist Leninism had lost in like you know,

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the the marketplace of ideas or whatever, you know, people

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who still bandy Thomas Paine or whatever and claim that

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you know, through through like the process of reason and

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like meaningful discourse, we all like arrive with the truth.

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Like that doesn't mean anything in the world of power politics,

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and it certainly didn't mean anything amiss, you know what

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a miss you know what, in less delicate times, people

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are fruit. Was the colored revolt, you know, within the

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developing world. You know, I mean this this was very

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this very much could have become reality, and a Soviet

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Union a worse up pact that basically could plunder, you know,

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the the collective capital resources of you know, South Asia,

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SUPs in Africa, Latin America could pretty much like stagger

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on indefinitely. You know, I mean it doesn't matter if

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you know, the the value added in absolute terms to

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their economy is nil. It wouldn't matter if you know,

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they were experiencing you know, like one point two percent

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growth annually. You know, they could they could Certainly, the

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Soviets were certainly going at manufacturing guns, and they could

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and they could have they could poach a enough proverbial

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butter as they needed to if uh, you know, they

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had they had access to the world as they're kind

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of proverbial orchard doesn't work. So I think that's important

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to keep in mind. Okay, this is the world situation, uh,

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after America withdrew from Vietnam. Now Nixon, you know, Nixon

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was the author of the tent. I mean bresnev uh

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obviously had to be receptive to that. But uh, it

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really this, this really was a America was kind of

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determining the course of uh, the conflict paradigm in the

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developing world, because the Truman doctrine was what carried the day,

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and you know, Nixon, the Nixon doctrine superseded the Truman doctrine.

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You know. The next the Nixon doctrine, which was you know,

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announced formally as you know, Saigon as a as A

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as America transferred authority for uh, the defense of the

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Republic of Vietnam. You know, it's a Saigon, you know,

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and Nixon declared that, you know, a no uncertain terms,

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America is not gonna you know, take direct action to

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intervene in states where the internal situation you know, precludes

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those states from you know, resisting communist version from within

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or without you know, on on on their own terms.

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So that gave I think, uh, I mean that was

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just practical number one. I mean, there wasn't there wasn't

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the political will, you know, to wage another Vietnam War

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and subser in Africa or even in Latin America, you know,

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in nineteen seventy three. But also, uh, it kind of

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provided an opening to get the Soviets to the table

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without uh, without further compromising American credibility you know, in

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some in some kind of pitiable way. It didn't appear

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to be it. It didn't appear to be uh America

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like folding the flag and quitting the Cold War, or

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even have some hawks like interpreted it that way and

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the Soviets. What's important is the Soviets didn't interpret it

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that way. But the uh, the real uh, the real

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lynchpin of the tent was uh, the Salt Treaty strategic

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arms limitation talks. I'm not gonna bore everybody with, you know,

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the minutia of it. The important details is that it

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limited not just nuclear forces and being and the destructive

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power of existing platforms as regards like you know, how

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many warheads and what kind of throw weight and mega

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tonage could be packed onto those pre existing sets pre

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existing platforms, but it also limited It also limited the

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counter measures you know, deployment as well as purportedly uh

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development of countermeasures. The idea being that you know, emergent

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deeper parodies you know, including things like decoys, you know,

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including things you know like interceptor UH missiles you know,

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and including in including uh including next generation then next

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generation early warning systems. If this kind of tech could

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be frozen, or if not frozen, you know, agreed upon,

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you know, to not be deployed, that this would build

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in some kind of additional stability, which I think is

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incredibly fatuous. But that's a different issue. And then the

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event this was in May nineteen seventy two, UH, by

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nineteen seventy six, UH, a few things that happened to

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undermine this burgining deton regime, which ultimately was was as

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you know, was unceremoniously ended in nineteen seventy nine for

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one reason of material we'll get into in a minute.

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But a couple of a couple of things happened subsequent

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to sult First and foremost, UH, there's the nineteen seventy

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three war. On October sixth, nineteen seventy three, as people know,

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Syrian Egypt preemptively assaulted Israel. The Arab armies, particularly the

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Syrian Army, performed better than anticipated. Frankly, this UH, Israel

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had a real problem on its hands. In tactical terms.

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Israel responded by marrying nuclear war heads to their Jericho

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missile platforms in part to you know, try and terrify

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the Arabs into submission in part as a ployee to

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force a reluctant mixed administration to reprovision and resupply them

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because the Israelis were desperately running short ammunitions and everything

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else they needed. Deploy worked. And then Nixon tapes and

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hear Nixon and Kissinger and Nixon lamenting. You know, Uh,

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I'm not gonna repeat the language because they would probably

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upset the YouTube sensors and that sends up on YouTube.

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But you know, Nixon was not happy at the state

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of affairs. The Soviets responded by deploying service warfare frigates

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and amphibious assault craft to the port of Alexandria. And

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this was not publicized at the time, but the White

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House knew those service warfare frigates were carrying nuclear weapons.

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As the IDF surrounded the Egyptian Third Army, uh Brezhnev

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contacted the White House and said that if the Egyptian

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Army were surrounded and destroyed, the Egyptian Third Army were

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surrounded destroyed, and if the Audia have continued to Cairo,

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the Soviets were gonna deploy and intervene directly, you know,

236
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to save Egypt. Nixon responded UH by ordering death Con

237
00:16:14,519 --> 00:16:18,519
three alert status, the first time they had been such

238
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a raised an alert status since UH Cuba in sixty two.

239
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This was really, this was this was profoundly serious. Alert

240
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,279
status wasn't what it is like after the Cold War

241
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:32,679
in like post nine to eleven. It wasn't this like

242
00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:38,519
meaningless thing. It had actual It had actual significance and

243
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,279
it acts it it in material in concrete terms. That

244
00:16:43,399 --> 00:16:48,759
changed the status of forces. Okay, it indicated real readiness

245
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,399
to wage war, is what I mean. Okay, at deaf

246
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,159
Con three. UH. During the Cold War, it meant that

247
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,440
UH strategic nuclear bomber forces were on alert status such

248
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,200
that in fifteen minutes they could be scrambled and deployed. UH.

249
00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:10,079
It meant it meant missilliers in their silos in order

250
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,039
to strap in to like their command chairs and prepare

251
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:18,519
for incoming uh ICDM assault. You know. So I mean

252
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:23,039
it was. It was very very serious. The Soviets responded

253
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:28,480
in kind the UH. The Soviet defenseman at the time

254
00:17:28,559 --> 00:17:34,880
was Gretzkoh It was soon to be replaced. He asked

255
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,000
the Kremlin for seventy thousand troops to be mobilized and

256
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:44,480
deployed in proximity to the battle space, which didn't happen. Obviously,

257
00:17:44,559 --> 00:17:47,880
why that didn't happen is not entirely clear. Did bresn

258
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:54,319
have put the brakes on that at deliberately? Did the

259
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,279
Soviet general staff decide to wait and see, It's not

260
00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:02,200
clear to me. According to UH, a guy named Andre

261
00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:09,880
Daniellevich who was a he was a colonel general or

262
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,640
it's equivalent. I guess that'd be a three star. I

263
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,519
think in the NAT old tronim like military guys in

264
00:18:15,519 --> 00:18:17,440
the comments correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not

265
00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:24,759
a military fit. His testimony in the nineties that he

266
00:18:24,799 --> 00:18:28,119
gave to the Wilson Foundation in some of those ngeotypes,

267
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,359
I think is instructive and I think it's credible. What

268
00:18:32,559 --> 00:18:35,920
he said was he said that the ninety Sentary three

269
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,359
crisis exposed real weaknesses in the Soviet commanding control system

270
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,839
and its ability to respond to crisis in the moment,

271
00:18:44,319 --> 00:18:49,000
and that the Soviet Union wasn't really capable. Is that

272
00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:53,119
the Soviet Union couldn't incrementally mobilize in that way. There

273
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:59,519
was a binary kind of alert structure, like either you know,

274
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,240
either you were at war, you were not. And when

275
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,119
you were at war, either you know, the nuclear trigger

276
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,119
was cocked and ready or there was no chance of

277
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:12,640
that happening. So basically and interestingly, because you know, during

278
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:18,440
the Tsarist era, one of the issues that one of

279
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,920
the issues that uh Hoveg was dealing with in Germany

280
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:23,559
and you know, the lead up to the Great War

281
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:29,559
is that once like the tsar Is, a mobilization protocol

282
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,640
was was triggered like very little could stop it, you know,

283
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,599
and uh to put the brakes on it would mean

284
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,039
that you know, the the Russian Empire returned to a

285
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,880
state of uh, you know, of peace time vulnerability. So

286
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,160
I think that's interesting, Okay, not just for trivial reasons,

287
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,720
but at any event, the inability, the inflexibility and the

288
00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:58,599
lack of uh, you know, the lack of a nuanced

289
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:04,599
UH alert structure was something that gave the Soviet General

290
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,079
staff pause. And I mean the Soviet general staff it

291
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,039
was modeled very much on like, you know, the old

292
00:20:09,079 --> 00:20:12,960
German general staff, and you know, as was the American

293
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,200
as wasn't his the American joint She's a staff, So

294
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:20,440
I mean these Danielovich was a powerful man and he

295
00:20:20,519 --> 00:20:24,359
also he was he was kind of the statistics and

296
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:29,240
research man on the Soviet general staff. So what he

297
00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:31,960
did in nineteen seventy six, and this was not accidental

298
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,839
nineteen seventy six is generally agreed upon some historians and

299
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,519
some defense intelligence types positive nineteen seventy four or seventy

300
00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:44,480
five a handful as late in the nineteen seventy seven

301
00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:48,160
this was when the Soviets truly achieved strategic parody in

302
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,559
terms of in terms of their nuclear forces and being okay.

303
00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:57,079
This is when the point at which inarguably the warsaw

304
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,759
pick could fight a nuclear war against NATO and or

305
00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:07,880
the United States, you know, jointly or severally on uh on,

306
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,000
on terms of parody as regards forces and being okay,

307
00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:16,640
they were always disadvantaged as regarded you know, the strategic

308
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,680
nuclear forces until then, you know, despite despite you know,

309
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,319
what the Pentagon claimed, you know, in the run up

310
00:21:24,319 --> 00:21:26,839
to the ninety sixty election, in spite of what you know,

311
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:33,440
subsequent administrations alleged about you know, force levels. This this,

312
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,680
this was the moment at which the strategic balance became

313
00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:42,640
you know, one of of true parody. But what Danielovitch

314
00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:50,720
did was he oversaw the first uh computer analysis scientifically

315
00:21:53,480 --> 00:22:02,440
structured quantitative simulation of a general nuclear war, okay, coding

316
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:08,200
all available inputs, you know. And the Soviet general staff

317
00:22:08,279 --> 00:22:11,279
was pretty uncorrupted by ideology. You know. This was not

318
00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:14,200
you know, some kind of cheerleading exercise so that they

319
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,319
could you know, deliver you know, some kind of hackneyed

320
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,640
official statement, you know, to the to the General secretary

321
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,640
and say like, you know, see, comrade, we we we

322
00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:26,640
can defeat the imperialist It was nothing like that. It

323
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:33,440
was very legit. And what Daniellovich's conclusions were was it

324
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:40,240
under best conditions and a general nuclear war, the Soviet

325
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,759
military would be utterly powerless. If the USSR was hit

326
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,000
with a splendid first strike, they have no ability to

327
00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:55,319
retaliate effectively. Okay. Even if early warning did perform adequately

328
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,640
and the Soviets were able to retaliate, at least eighty

329
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,000
million Soviet citizens would be dead, and god knows how

330
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,759
many more you know, and more sow packed altes allied

331
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:12,079
estates who are also targeted in varying capacities. In the aftermath,

332
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,200
it'd be virtually impossible for the Soviet military to rebuild

333
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:25,400
and reconstitute critical infrastructure, because over three quarters of heavy

334
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:32,480
industry would have been just outright annihilated. And finally, Europe

335
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,160
would would be reduced to a wasteland. Like even if

336
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,240
you even if you reject the kind of Carl Sagan doomsday,

337
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:46,160
you know, hypothesis of nuclear winter and all that kind

338
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,160
of thing, there's no way Europe could survive a general

339
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,279
nuclear war, you know, I mean, if you're you're talking

340
00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:56,279
about literally the death of Europe. And obviously that you know,

341
00:23:56,599 --> 00:24:01,319
had profound implications from the Soviet Union as well, you know.

342
00:24:04,279 --> 00:24:10,160
So what uh, what this led to was a couple

343
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:18,400
of things. The way to really understand the way to

344
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,720
really understand why the Soviets invaded Afghanistan owes to what

345
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:27,519
I just described in terms of real anxieties about their

346
00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:32,119
ability to fight a nuclear war and survive, not even win,

347
00:24:32,319 --> 00:24:36,480
just to survive. Okay, Now, I know nobody likes the

348
00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:38,799
Russians these days, and I guess most people don't really

349
00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:42,279
like the Russians anyway. I'm not trying to be like

350
00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:46,480
Bigott or mean. I mean, it's a fact. Okay, however,

351
00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:54,240
anyone feels about Russia, whoeverybody felt about the Soviet Union, Russia,

352
00:24:54,759 --> 00:24:59,759
the Soviet Union. In the twentieth century, they lost more

353
00:24:59,799 --> 00:25:05,079
p led war then all other states combined. Okay, you know,

354
00:25:05,599 --> 00:25:08,119
in the between ninety forty forty five, like one in

355
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:13,519
seven of their population was like died by war attrition, okay,

356
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,720
or of starvation or in you know, a bombing raider

357
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:24,160
in some way proximately caused by hostilities. I mean this

358
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,160
this this to say this was impactful on their collective psyche,

359
00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,480
I mean doesn't even begin to describe, you know, the

360
00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:39,400
degree to which this informed policy. But beyond that, by uh,

361
00:25:39,759 --> 00:25:46,400
by nineteen seventy nine, you know, we're in under conditions

362
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:52,640
of strategic true strategic parody. I mean potentially we're we're

363
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,319
talking about the window of decision making an event of

364
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,079
a general war of you know minutes, you know, like

365
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,839
five or ten minutes or in best case scenario, you know,

366
00:26:01,839 --> 00:26:05,720
fifteen or twenty minutes. And you know, we're dealing with

367
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:13,200
weapons systems, and we're dealing with the you know, levels

368
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:19,240
of social organizations at scale wherein like human decision makers

369
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,440
are increasingly being sidelined. You know that that was reality. Okay,

370
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,799
like this idea that just oh well, if we have

371
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,279
if we have sensible men, you know at the controls,

372
00:26:31,519 --> 00:26:34,359
you know, cooler heads will just prevail. And you know,

373
00:26:34,559 --> 00:26:37,519
it's unthinkable that some general nuclear war would happen. That

374
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,519
was not the case at all. You can find yourself

375
00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:44,680
at war before you even realize what's happening. And in the

376
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:50,880
case of nuclear war, again, we're talking about being forced

377
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,160
to render decisions within minutes, you know, Uh, if you

378
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,839
even realize you've been hit, you know, I mean there's

379
00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:03,480
that too. It Uh, the possibility of decapitation raises a

380
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:11,759
whole new possibility or set of possibilities. You know, if

381
00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:16,839
the enemy can potentially achieve a splendid decapitation strike, then

382
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,960
the issue becomes like, well, you know, how do I

383
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,759
identify imminent indicators of attack before there's even you know,

384
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,279
before there's even like a mobilization, or before like early

385
00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:31,960
warning you know, is even is even activated. You know.

386
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:40,240
So these are not things that human minds can adequately identify, interpret, contemplate,

387
00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:45,720
and respond to. So we're talking about incredibly dangerous conditions. Okay,

388
00:27:46,839 --> 00:27:53,359
now I missed all of this, uh, this whole union

389
00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:56,720
and to their credit, to the to the credit of

390
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,079
the General staff, I mean, as I indicated a moment ago,

391
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,240
they were kind of the best of that system, them

392
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,279
and probably some of the KGB. I mean, that's where

393
00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:09,359
I drop off came from. That's where mister Putin you know,

394
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:17,319
uh rose to the ranks as well. After after this

395
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:24,400
nineteen seventy six UH wargame exercise, the Soviets realized that,

396
00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:28,200
you know, they had to try and find a way

397
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,599
to develop a flexible response whereby you know, they had

398
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,720
the capability to fight and win a nuclear war or

399
00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:41,359
at least you know, respond to any nuclear assault with

400
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,640
a devastating counter strike in the form of a survivable deterrent.

401
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,400
But they realized that they had du they basically the

402
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,839
Soviet Union by way of a frankly progressive minded general staff.

403
00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:59,359
They tried to implement their own revolution and military affairs. Okay,

404
00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:04,000
and this is uh, this is this is significant to

405
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:07,799
the final phase of the Cold War. But what remained

406
00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:14,119
paramount was, uh, you know, was the ability of you know,

407
00:29:16,079 --> 00:29:19,119
the ability to survive a smudded for a strike or

408
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:24,359
to deter it with you know, a survivable a survivable deterrent.

409
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:34,000
So another uh, another Soviet military type who offered his testimony.

410
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,680
You know, in the aftermath of nineteen ninety one was uh,

411
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:48,400
a guy named Alexander like Kowski, a major general. Lakowski

412
00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:55,799
was present pretty much when you know, the the Inner

413
00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:58,000
polic Bureau, if we can call it that way, convened

414
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,839
to discuss the invasion of Afghanistan. That's documented. So his

415
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,440
testimony at least, uh, you know, I see no reason

416
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,839
to think he's not a credible witness, but it's documented

417
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,960
that he was present when he stated he was present,

418
00:30:12,119 --> 00:30:19,839
so you know, he's as much of a from him,

419
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,240
we get as much of an insider's perspective on the

420
00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:28,279
decision making process as we're going to get. On December eighth,

421
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,440
nineteen seventy nine, there was a meeting held in Bresnev's

422
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:40,039
private office. You know, Bresnev was the General Secretary at

423
00:30:40,079 --> 00:30:42,599
the time still you know, uh that he would be

424
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,519
until his death in nineteen eighty two, but he was

425
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:48,759
increasingly you know, suffering dementia on a matter of health problems,

426
00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:52,680
I believe, as I've said before, that and drop of

427
00:30:54,119 --> 00:30:59,160
Gramco who was the Foreign minister, and Ustinov, who was

428
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,759
then Secretary of Defense, and he was this big war

429
00:31:01,839 --> 00:31:05,119
hero like when you think of those guys of Red

430
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,680
Army generals got like rose and rose and medals, you know,

431
00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:10,880
and and look like they're you know, they got they

432
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,400
got like a viscigin looks like it's card out of

433
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,000
Grantite or something like. Ustanov was that was kind of

434
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:23,000
one of those guys. But the issue at hand, uh,

435
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,799
was the present situation in Afghanistan. And then drop Off

436
00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:33,279
and Usanov in particular were gravely concerned about it. And

437
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,240
what like Kowski says is he said that the way

438
00:31:36,279 --> 00:31:38,920
I drop of and and drop always holding court, it

439
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,880
wasn't bridgment of and drop Off said that, look the

440
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:48,119
efforts undertaken by the US intelligence apparatus, you know, Central Intelligence,

441
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,200
d I A. You know, elements of the State Department

442
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,559
that are in fact intelligence, you know oriented. He said that, Uh,

443
00:31:57,839 --> 00:32:01,079
their big plan is to beef up Herky, you know,

444
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:07,559
concede the Turfs, you know, within reason whatever they want

445
00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:10,799
in Central Asia, you know, so long as the Turks

446
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:12,680
are willing to play ball with a NATO war plan.

447
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:19,559
And ultimately he said that the goal, the Turkish goal

448
00:32:19,599 --> 00:32:23,119
is to bring Sunni Moslims on the southern Soviet frontier,

449
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:30,720
like into their number or orbit, and the US ambition

450
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,839
is to encourage that sentiment, you know by what, by

451
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,119
whatever means possible. Now, the reason for this was, among

452
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:45,279
other things, by nineteen seventy nine, Soviet war planners realized

453
00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:48,240
that if America was going to launch a preemptive assault

454
00:32:48,279 --> 00:32:51,519
to the Soviet Union, it was going to basically force

455
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:54,400
the Soviet Union to fight a two front nuclear war

456
00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:56,559
if you can think of nuclear wars that in fronts.

457
00:32:56,599 --> 00:32:59,160
But the point is they're going to assault from the

458
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,720
Pacific ause what was from the West? Okay, They're gonna

459
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,680
do that for a few reasons, World War three would

460
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,039
have been decided by naval weapons platforms and eventually by

461
00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:15,160
those like an orbital space But by nineteen seventy nine,

462
00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:20,440
Asia would have been key for reasons that I we

463
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,519
can get into at some point, but it's it's kind

464
00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:24,799
of too there's kind of too much there to you know,

465
00:33:26,359 --> 00:33:27,920
de vote with the rest of this episode to that

466
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,480
and nothing else. But the big Soviet concern also was

467
00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:36,559
that Soviet Command to control to fight a nuclear war

468
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,480
was based in Moscow, and it was based in Kazakhstan

469
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,680
where stars where Star City is, you know, there's space

470
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,759
Center to this day that's still are Russian space crafter

471
00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:54,759
launched from. The big concern was that pursing missiles deployed UH,

472
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:01,200
you know, in proximity to Kazakhstan, would be targeted at

473
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,160
Star City. And you know, again like if we I

474
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,000
mean it's an imperfect descriptor, but if of a two

475
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,199
front nuclear assault in the Soviet Union, it would be

476
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,639
blinded and then it would be decapitated and that would

477
00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:22,679
be the end of it. So why the concern in Afghanistan? Well,

478
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:30,079
Amin who was a communist, he was this revolutionary UH

479
00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:37,239
firebrain in Afghanistan, you know, who'd become uh, who'd become

480
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,559
the president, and he was a dedicated Marxist Leninist. Oh

481
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,320
to the kind of peculiarities of uh or are the

482
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,159
kind of peculiarities of of of the culture there which

483
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,760
I can't speak to in any kind of you know,

484
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,599
meaningful capacity, but just generally and this is this is

485
00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:03,719
what like Kowski he stated, you know, Amen fell back

486
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,880
a lot on kind of appeal to Islamic pietism and

487
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,960
couching Marxist Leninists kind of gobbledygook in those terms. The

488
00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:15,800
Kremlin had a hard time kind of discerning those signals.

489
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:21,280
They thought that Amen was likely gonna kind of court

490
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,679
like an Islamist coalition around like a nominally Marxist Leninis garment,

491
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:29,559
and then it was gonna pivot to the West through

492
00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:34,280
Turkey and become this client regime of the sort that

493
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,559
America always wanted they ran to kind of become that

494
00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:40,320
would was gonna welcome, you know, force US to be

495
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,679
based there, you know, including things like pursing two missile

496
00:35:43,679 --> 00:35:49,079
platforms and in the end drop of usanov gramco view

497
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,360
like this was the checkmate scenario in the Cold War.

498
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,440
And secondarily, a lot of people don't know this, Afghanistan

499
00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:07,360
actually has fairly stantial uranium deposits. Pakistan was literally at

500
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:12,280
war at the time intermittently with the Soviet ally India,

501
00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:17,400
who was their head against China, which uh in turn,

502
00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:21,280
you know, uh, mister Kissinger and some of his successors

503
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,440
and the Chinese accorded Pakistan and started giving them everything

504
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:31,360
they needed to wage war with India. You know. Uh.

505
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,760
So what I'm getting at is that this was this

506
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,599
was not and drop off being crazy or this was

507
00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:40,880
not just Soviet paranoia, like this actually was very forward thinking,

508
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:46,039
strategic logic, and they were one hundred percent wrong about

509
00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:48,679
I mean, he had no intention of doing that. He

510
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,320
was what he appeared to be, which was a basically

511
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,639
doctrinaire Marxist Leninist, you know, accounting thick out of the

512
00:36:57,639 --> 00:37:04,000
peculiar cultural nuances of of uh of of his country.

513
00:37:04,039 --> 00:37:11,599
But UH, Unfortunately what was decided was UH. At the

514
00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:15,119
conclusion of this meeting, like Cosky said, he was kind

515
00:37:15,159 --> 00:37:17,960
of sitting there the thing that this was just kind

516
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,960
of like a typical like intelligence briefing, but and drop

517
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,159
of just kind of like looked at, you know, every

518
00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:27,840
man in the room and said, well, you know, our

519
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,719
plan is gonna be this. You know, we we've got

520
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,519
to remove I mean, you know, by by way of

521
00:37:33,559 --> 00:37:37,000
special action, I mean, which everybody understand. Meant, you know,

522
00:37:37,159 --> 00:37:41,280
he's gonna be whacked. He's gonna be replaced with UH,

523
00:37:41,639 --> 00:37:46,159
with with Carmel Uh, who was the Soviet Union's preferred

524
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,320
for whatever reason, the KGB said that this is the man,

525
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,480
and we can why you know, it was just some

526
00:37:54,559 --> 00:37:57,599
kind of cipher. I don't know anything about the man

527
00:37:57,679 --> 00:38:00,199
beyond that, but you know he I believe hen til

528
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,519
nineteen eighty six. So for Bosth of the Soviet war

529
00:38:02,559 --> 00:38:06,760
in Afghanistan, like he was at the helm and drop offs. Said, uh,

530
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,039
in order to preserve you know, he anticipated, you know,

531
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,639
some kind of smooth transition of power. But uh, you know,

532
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:19,159
just in case, you know, he he said, we got

533
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:21,920
a plan for the continency of civil unrest, and you know,

534
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,000
deploy at least some contingent of forces to the ground

535
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:36,320
on the ground there. And uh, this was put to uh.

536
00:38:36,679 --> 00:38:39,480
U said, I put this too, O Garkov, who was

537
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:47,199
chief of the General staff, and he was outraged. And

538
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,159
uh Usandov said, well, to be on the safe side,

539
00:38:50,199 --> 00:38:52,320
don't worry, We're going to deploy seventy five to eighty

540
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:57,760
thousand troops in theater. Gharkov said, that's not going to

541
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,119
be able to stabilize the situation. And this is the

542
00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:06,559
conventional military problem anyway, and uh, apparently Usanov said, are

543
00:39:06,599 --> 00:39:09,880
you saying, you know, comrade, are you suggesting that you

544
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,159
you are to teach the you are to teach the

545
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:18,079
poet girl. And reading between the lines, uh Ogarkhov realized

546
00:39:18,119 --> 00:39:23,639
that if he continued on this path of you know,

547
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:29,440
conscientious resistance, he would be disappeared. If not physically, which

548
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,119
was very possible. You know, he he would have found himself, uh,

549
00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:42,639
you know, unpersoned and some and some basic capacity the U.

550
00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:51,679
This tells you too about the divide between again the

551
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,880
military leadership and uh the true kind of vanguard, which

552
00:39:56,079 --> 00:40:00,840
was of the Communist Party, I mean, you know, which

553
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:06,760
was uh in drop Off by that point, um Gramco

554
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:13,000
and uh Ustanov and uh, this was a totally unofficial

555
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,719
meeting of hand picked officialdom. You know, this didn't go

556
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,360
to the Supreme Soviet This, this didn't go to some

557
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:27,239
you know, officially convened subcommittee of the polit Burro. There

558
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,840
wasn't even any record of it other than the notes

559
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,800
of the meeting that I just referenced when it drop

560
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,480
Off died. Apparently the notes of this meeting were any safe.

561
00:40:37,679 --> 00:40:43,280
Every Soviet General secretary had had a personal safe, and

562
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,199
when he died it was opened, which seems strange, almost

563
00:40:47,199 --> 00:40:50,280
like mafia lake in my opinion. Like I'm not being corny,

564
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:57,159
I mean like quite literally when uh like when Bresnav died,

565
00:40:57,639 --> 00:40:59,719
I think he had like ten thousand dollars in American

566
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,199
can which at that time was a lot of money.

567
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,119
He had, he had he had like he he has.

568
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,000
He had like some chiefs regal or some kind of

569
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:09,920
like mid show off like brand of American liquor, and

570
00:41:10,039 --> 00:41:13,360
uh like a bunch of personal effects and drop Up

571
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,840
had a whole lot of he had a whole lot

572
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,599
of fairly sensitive stuff, including apparently the notes from this meeting,

573
00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:23,599
which was the only documentation that it even occurred, which

574
00:41:23,639 --> 00:41:27,760
is crazy because the Soviet Union, the Soviet was brazen.

575
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,559
The Soviet Union in some ways was uh it did

576
00:41:31,679 --> 00:41:36,119
did didn't respect convention in the international system, you know,

577
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,840
stuff like the downing of Flight oh seven and other things,

578
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,000
but they were obsessed with their own like internal protocol,

579
00:41:43,039 --> 00:41:45,320
like this is something that just like wasn't done. Like

580
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,280
you can tell, in my opinion that Soviet Union was

581
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,159
in trouble at this point that they were doing things

582
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:56,320
this way. This wasn't just ordinary. I mean, the Soviet

583
00:41:56,519 --> 00:41:59,480
was secretive and paranoid, but like not that this isn't

584
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,840
how they did things, you know, and when uh when

585
00:42:05,039 --> 00:42:08,000
when even within the the inner party, literally you've got

586
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,039
that kind of like mistrust, so you're resorting to this

587
00:42:12,119 --> 00:42:17,119
kind of ad hoc uh decision making, you know, with

588
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,280
uh with kind of like a mafia coterie of official

589
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,679
dumb you know who are loyal to like the defect

590
00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:25,960
though decision maker on more in peace questions like that's

591
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,159
that that's a very very bad situation. I mean just

592
00:42:29,159 --> 00:42:33,840
in terms of the potential for you know, the potential

593
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:39,320
for you know, uh, catastrophic decision making. But also it means,

594
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,800
it means the proverbial center cannot hold. And I'm actually

595
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,960
someone who thinks pretty highly even drop off in the

596
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:53,400
bounded rationality of you know, rather the like the a

597
00:42:53,639 --> 00:42:58,360
moral you know discussion within an am world, purely a

598
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,159
moral discussion of power politics, I think, and drop it

599
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,199
was probably the best man the system produced other than

600
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:13,639
steal and purely uh, you know, power political terms. But this, uh,

601
00:43:13,679 --> 00:43:17,039
this is how, this is what underlay the decision to

602
00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:22,280
go to war in Afghanistan. You know, it was not

603
00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:27,159
you know, to fight Islamic fundamentalism, like Islamic consciousness definitely

604
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,440
was an aspect. It was a part of the constellation

605
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,400
of factors, but not not in the way like people

606
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,800
think about it. It wasn't because like Osama bin Laden was

607
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,119
radicalizing people or something, or because the CIA created bin

608
00:43:40,199 --> 00:43:43,519
Laden or whatever kind of stupid stuff people say it

609
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:48,320
very very much absolutely had to do with critical judgment

610
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,000
relating to the you know, uh related to the nuclear paradigm,

611
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,159
you know, and then and the need of the Soviets

612
00:43:56,159 --> 00:44:01,360
to protect at all costs key commanding COTRO infrastructure in

613
00:44:01,519 --> 00:44:06,920
Asia in order to survive of a bull from the

614
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,920
blue as salt and preserve a survivable deterrent. And I

615
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,920
think that's fascinating. I mean not just because I you know,

616
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:17,480
I don't think it's just because I have a strong

617
00:44:17,519 --> 00:44:19,880
interest in the topic. I mean, this is a It

618
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,360
goes to show you how during the Cold War, you know,

619
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,920
warfare within very within, very secondary theaters, very peripheral theaters

620
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,360
head you know, profound significance in a way that you

621
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,159
know before a sense like just wouldn't like it's not

622
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:44,239
emergent within you know, ordinary security paradigms.

623
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: Let me ask you about let me get a subject

624
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,239
in here. It's probably too much right now to talk about.

625
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,360
Maybe for a subsequent episode, are you going to talk

626
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,480
anything at all about what the Carter White House had

627
00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:03,320
to do with possibly you know, there's that famous, uh,

628
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,239
the famous line of we're gonna give them, We're gonna

629
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:15,119
give Russia their Vietnam by pushing them into the Afghanistan conflict.

630
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,599
Speaker 3: That or ride somewhat later, like as Carter was going

631
00:45:18,639 --> 00:45:22,440
out movie Charlie Wilson's War. I think it's kind of lame,

632
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,159
and it makes Wilson himself, I look this great. It

633
00:45:25,159 --> 00:45:26,920
makes him look at this big like playboy and this

634
00:45:27,039 --> 00:45:29,519
like great guy as well as like this kind of

635
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:37,519
strategic genius to realize that, you know, there's a soft vulnerability,

636
00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:41,199
as it were in Afghanistan. When it became clear of

637
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:46,440
the Afghames we're gonna fight and the Caesar of the

638
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:54,440
Grand Mosque by extremists in Saudi Arabia, including a lot

639
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,039
of guys who ended up joining Bin Laden himself, that

640
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:03,239
the Iranian Revolution, ironically, because I mean, you know, the

641
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,559
first two Islamic republic revolutionary Islamic Republic was like a

642
00:46:06,559 --> 00:46:13,800
Shia republic that very much inspired Salafi uh muja Hadeen types.

643
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,840
These things kind of coalesced, and you know, guys from

644
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:25,599
far and wide started streaming into Afghanistan to fight the communists.

645
00:46:26,119 --> 00:46:30,400
And I don't think people really saw that coming. When

646
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,920
that became clear, Uh, it was around like Carter was

647
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,320
on his way out. Reagan was on his way in,

648
00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:42,400
and the Reagan doctrine, you know, for the minute Reagan

649
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,599
took the oath of office, it was clear, uh that

650
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,639
you know, the team b uh Kodian went out and

651
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:52,679
the Reagan doctrine was like, we're gonna fight Ivan pretty

652
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,719
much wherever he's insinuated, and we're gonna give the people

653
00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:02,400
under arms. We're fighting the reds anything they needed. What

654
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,039
Carter did, when I'm gonna get to momentarily, Carter deserves

655
00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:13,960
a lot of credit. Carter totally changed the command and

656
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:21,360
control structure and brought it back within constitutional parameters as

657
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,199
well as just you know, putting an end of the

658
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,559
kind of garbage UH that UH had made America vulnerable

659
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:34,119
and UH strategic nuclear terms. You know. Carter said that

660
00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:39,280
like you know this, you know, this centering debate around

661
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:42,159
you know, mutually assured destruction, which never was anything more

662
00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:45,280
than a talking point. Anyway, that's over with. You know,

663
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,199
we're gonna I'll I'm gonna get into that now, Like

664
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:56,039
it was. The issue was this okay by by the

665
00:47:56,039 --> 00:48:00,440
time Carter took office. Carter realized very quickly a few

666
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,599
things were a foot. First of all, Strategic Air Command

667
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,880
had just decided by that point that in the event

668
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,039
of the general nuclear war, the president and all civilian

669
00:48:10,039 --> 00:48:13,360
decision makers just going to be dead within minutes. So

670
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,360
why bother you know, really like advising the president about

671
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,400
nuclear war decision making anyway, because Strategic Air Command from

672
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,679
the looking glass a wax aircraft, we're just going to

673
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,559
like fight the war, you know, from that command post.

674
00:48:28,599 --> 00:48:30,960
And oh well, it sucks the president's dead, but that's

675
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:35,519
just the way it is. Carter said, that's not acceptable. Okay.

676
00:48:35,679 --> 00:48:38,079
First of all, the President of United States is the

677
00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:43,199
President of United States. You know, he's the sole national

678
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:48,559
representative the people of the American people. Secondly, Article two

679
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,119
confers upon the president, you know, uh, the power of

680
00:48:53,119 --> 00:48:55,719
commander in chief. It doesn't confer that upon Strategic Air

681
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,480
Command or like General Curtis Leamy or General Thomas Powers

682
00:48:59,559 --> 00:49:07,440
or General whoever. Okay, that's parently and constitutional. Finally, what

683
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,000
what the hell are we doing just saying like, you know,

684
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:13,000
we're just gonna throw our hands at and accept that

685
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:15,559
like the government is gonna die immediately an event of war.

686
00:49:16,039 --> 00:49:17,960
Like that's not that's not how you're prepared to fight

687
00:49:18,039 --> 00:49:21,719
and win a war. So what Carter did was and

688
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,960
these measures weren't perfected and implemented until about eighty five

689
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:32,920
eighty six. But a list of a designated national command

690
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,400
authorities what's called national command authorities. There are people from

691
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,360
the president on down, you know, all the way down

692
00:49:39,519 --> 00:49:42,519
like forty people total. You know, if like one man

693
00:49:42,599 --> 00:49:45,119
and they're almost aways men is dead, the next one

694
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:50,679
will take up a command and control authority. This is

695
00:49:50,679 --> 00:49:54,239
a pre cell phone and pre GPS. So all these

696
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,960
people they were issued ID cards that you know, we're

697
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,960
we're or where. They were given a cipher that upon

698
00:50:05,079 --> 00:50:10,320
being contacted you know by sick nor ed an event

699
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,280
of war, you know, they they'd be able to reply

700
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,239
to a challenge with like the correct you know, like

701
00:50:16,199 --> 00:50:20,239
the cipher code or whatever. But the nancial command authorities

702
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,519
with the people who would direct nuclear war, like an

703
00:50:22,519 --> 00:50:25,159
event that the president and his cabinet are dead, and

704
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,639
like on down the line. Okay, designated safe houses. Some

705
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:34,920
are on military bases. Some were purpose structures that were

706
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,360
designed and built for this purpose that they could be

707
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:43,280
shuttled due to survive the initial assault. They were to

708
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:49,239
report in to uh seck nor ed every day as

709
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,719
to what they're you knows, as did their goings coming,

710
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,559
some goings when they left town. You know, they had

711
00:50:54,559 --> 00:50:57,000
to they had to report like every six hours or something.

712
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:03,239
I mean this this is a revolutionary system, Okay. Carter

713
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:10,519
also that was President's director of fifty eight. Carter said that,

714
00:51:11,159 --> 00:51:15,199
you know, he reiterated that America will never, you know,

715
00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:19,400
will never utilize a nuclear first strike in order to

716
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:26,480
resolve a national security exceptency. However, if America finds itself

717
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,719
in a nuclear war, and this is in the language

718
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,360
of PD fifty nine, America will fight to win a

719
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,480
nuclear war, and it will develop and maintain forces in

720
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:38,559
being to fight and win a nuclear war against the

721
00:51:38,559 --> 00:51:44,719
Soviet Union Warsaw Pact, and that represented a that represents

722
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,000
this was the end of daytime. Okay. This is America

723
00:51:47,079 --> 00:51:50,360
saying that, you know, if God forbid, we go to

724
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:55,760
war with Warsaw Pact, you know, and this escalation to

725
00:51:56,039 --> 00:51:59,320
general nuclear war like America's gonna treat nuclear war like

726
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,880
it does any other conflict modality. America is gonna fight

727
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,320
to win a nuclear war. That's also one of the

728
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,840
reasons why continuity of government is important. That there's nobody

729
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,840
negotiate the end of the war is like, that's not

730
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,760
that's not reasonable, you know. So the idea is, you know,

731
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:27,800
civilian control as intended and demanded by the Constitution is

732
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,679
uh is gonna be guaranteed. You know, through these continuity

733
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:38,679
of government measures. We're gonna spare no expense in maintaining

734
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:42,400
a survivable deterrent and our strategic doctrine is gonna be

735
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,719
an event of war. We're going to fight and win.

736
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,519
We're gonna fight to win a nuclear war. National command

737
00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:54,920
authorities are UH are gonna seek to endstilities as quickly

738
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,320
as possible, if that is possible. But uh, there's no

739
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,239
where this horseshit of you know, like we will not

740
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,599
fight a nuclear war in these weapons can never be used.

741
00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:04,519
It's like, you know, you threaten those nuclear weapons, he

742
00:53:04,519 --> 00:53:07,519
can deploy those weapons. You know, we're in a wage

743
00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:15,239
total nuclear war against you in kind and drop of

744
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:21,159
who is becoming more powerful, you know, pretty much every

745
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:25,119
day and in the final months of the bresion of regime.

746
00:53:26,559 --> 00:53:29,239
The way he interpreted that, and he could say, this

747
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:34,199
is the most cunitive possible way, but just in realist terms,

748
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:41,079
if your enemy suddenly and kind of jarringly adopts a

749
00:53:41,119 --> 00:53:46,119
different strategic posture that tends to be a war indicator.

750
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,599
I mean, not like not of imminent attack or something.

751
00:53:49,519 --> 00:53:53,239
But that's pretty much exactly what the German Reich did,

752
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,000
what the Kaiser Reich did. What I mean that, I'm

753
00:53:56,039 --> 00:53:58,320
not saying, oh, like the Germans are bad. I'm saying

754
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,440
that in the Russian experience, when their primary adversary does this,

755
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,480
it means that something is afoot, you know, and that

756
00:54:06,639 --> 00:54:11,159
something usually is that, you know, the executive of the

757
00:54:11,639 --> 00:54:17,039
adversarial power was preparing the population to mobilize for war,

758
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,159
or at least he's doing what he has to do

759
00:54:19,519 --> 00:54:23,079
in order to concentrate war fighting authority in his office

760
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:25,519
so that he has that option in order to use,

761
00:54:25,559 --> 00:54:29,320
as you know, a as leverage against the Russians. And

762
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,519
there is some truth to that. I'm not gonna lie,

763
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:33,800
and that's that's not good or bad. I mean, that's

764
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:43,039
just state craft. But arguably this caused an escalation intensions.

765
00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:45,960
But again, I mean, the Soviet Union had just gone

766
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:51,239
into Afghanistan, you know, I mean, it's not and you know,

767
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,079
one of the problems with these treaties, however well intentioned,

768
00:54:54,119 --> 00:54:58,639
they were like salt and salt too, which was the

769
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,239
Cabals put on that by the invasion with Afghanistan by

770
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:04,880
the way, and then later the Start treaties. I mean,

771
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:09,000
even if you I I think, on principle, on principle,

772
00:55:09,039 --> 00:55:12,039
I have a problem with that kind of uh, with

773
00:55:12,039 --> 00:55:16,840
with those kinds of agreements, because because bargaining away your

774
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:21,639
preperaatedness and ability to survive is not legitimate. I realized

775
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:24,400
the Cold War was unusual conditions. But I mean, even

776
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,079
even if you think that those that sort of thing

777
00:55:28,119 --> 00:55:34,119
is the most well intentioned, you know, mechanism for preserving

778
00:55:34,159 --> 00:55:38,480
the piece, you can't somehow like stop technology, you know,

779
00:55:38,519 --> 00:55:40,800
and I mean the usued with deeper parodies is that. Yeah.

780
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,000
A lot of this stuff that made nuclear weapons more accurate,

781
00:55:44,119 --> 00:55:48,719
more deadly, more powerful was because guys that Los Alamos

782
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,400
or you know, guys that in Kazakhstan and USSR. You know,

783
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,800
we're like developing you know, weapons purpose tech to do that.

784
00:55:57,199 --> 00:56:00,000
But other stuff like commanding control tech. A lot of

785
00:56:00,159 --> 00:56:04,199
that stuff just it emerges. It's emergent, you know, due

786
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,960
to all kinds of endeavors, you know, some profit driven,

787
00:56:07,119 --> 00:56:09,920
some not, some military purpose some not. I mean you

788
00:56:10,559 --> 00:56:12,559
can't just say like we're gonna we're not gonna know

789
00:56:12,679 --> 00:56:14,760
things that we come to know because we got to

790
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,639
like keep weapons from becoming even more dangerous, you know.

791
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:22,079
So that and that's really that's really what SDI was about.

792
00:56:22,159 --> 00:56:24,800
And I think we're coming up on about an hour.

793
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,440
We'll get into that stuff next time, as well as

794
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:32,679
Able Archer and Granada and all that fun stuff. And

795
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,159
like I said before, I can't remember if we were

796
00:56:35,159 --> 00:56:37,440
recording already or not, but a lot of the fellows

797
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,559
they want us to talk about stuff, especially like especially

798
00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:42,519
a lot of like the English guys and French dudes.

799
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:44,559
You're not a lot of Europeans like fought in in

800
00:56:44,599 --> 00:56:46,760
Goola and stuff, and it's just like a cool conflict.

801
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,320
We should do a dedicated episode about stuff like the

802
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,239
Dominican Republic, about you know, like Latin America and the

803
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,840
Contract War and about like in Gola. I want to

804
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,480
do that, like a dedicated episode. If that's cool, it's

805
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:00,920
your show. I want to tell you, like this is

806
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:01,519
what we should do.

807
00:57:02,039 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 2: That sounds good.

808
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:05,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, thanks man, I really enjoyed this.

809
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, plugs.

810
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:11,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, for the time being. Can find me on Twitter.

811
00:57:11,679 --> 00:57:15,519
I don't know how long it will lasts at real

812
00:57:15,679 --> 00:57:21,119
underscore Thomas seven seven seven. I relaunched a Telegram channel.

813
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,159
Just look for Thomas seven seven seven or three seven Mafia.

814
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,360
You will find it. I'm gonna be more active on

815
00:57:28,519 --> 00:57:30,480
I'm gonna be active on there on the regular starting

816
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,679
this weekend. I've got like too much shit going on

817
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:36,280
right this minute. But join the channel. I'm gonna try

818
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,880
and get it popping again. You'll find me on substick

819
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,519
that's what the podcast is. Real Thomas seven seven seven

820
00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:46,599
dot subsec dot com. I am launching my YouTube channel.

821
00:57:46,639 --> 00:57:49,199
I know there's been like many many delays, things are

822
00:57:49,199 --> 00:57:52,079
coming together. I got an incredible editor. I've got a

823
00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:54,800
lot of people helping me because I frankly I don't

824
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,440
know about video protoc from at all. I promised it's

825
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:02,199
coming imminently, hopefully by next week. But it's coming. So

826
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:07,840
that's and that's Thomas TV's on YouTube. But for Thomas TV,

827
00:58:08,199 --> 00:58:10,320
the first T is a seven and you will find it.

828
00:58:11,039 --> 00:58:12,880
That's all I got, all right, So.

829
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,519
Speaker 1: The next time I appreciate it, Thomas, thank you peg.

830
00:58:18,039 --> 00:58:20,719
I want to walk on everyone back to the Pekana show.

831
00:58:22,039 --> 00:58:24,440
I've been waiting for this one, part twelve the Cold

832
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:26,519
War series What's happening in Thomas?

833
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 3: Hi? How are you? Thanks as always for hosting me.

834
00:58:30,239 --> 00:58:34,119
It's a great pleasure and a great honor and a privilege, legit.

835
00:58:34,159 --> 00:58:34,840
Thank you very much.

836
00:58:35,239 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 2: Oh, no problem.

837
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,079
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're feeling better, and yeah, let's get down

838
00:58:39,119 --> 00:58:39,400
to it.

839
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, I want to talk about the strategic paradigm

840
00:58:49,239 --> 00:58:53,000
in Reagan's first term, because that's essential to understand really

841
00:58:53,079 --> 00:58:57,239
the final phase of the Cold War and the reason

842
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,880
why it a resolution was really forced. You know, we'll

843
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,840
get into gorrichawf like next episode when I get back

844
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,400
from this weekend trip. Will we'll deal kind of more

845
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:11,679
with the Soviet side, you know, just conceptually, but also

846
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,280
just in terms of you know, the factual record, because

847
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,480
I realized we haven't dedicated a lot of attention to

848
00:59:17,519 --> 00:59:23,719
that yet. But you know, the the degree to which

849
00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:29,199
human decision makers were becoming less and less significant within

850
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:36,840
the strategic arms race, and I mean were fighting in general.

851
00:59:38,599 --> 00:59:40,599
If you're talking about you know, kind of the zenith

852
00:59:40,639 --> 00:59:44,320
of of of nuclear war technology as it was in

853
00:59:44,679 --> 00:59:49,760
you know, nineteen eighty one, that can't be overstated. And

854
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:54,800
this idea that you know, just cooler heads could prevail,

855
00:59:55,079 --> 01:00:01,079
you know, to invoke Curtis LeMay's kind of for rism.

856
01:00:01,199 --> 01:00:04,920
That's not really possible when you're talking about uh, you know,

857
01:00:05,039 --> 01:00:13,920
certain certain technological variables as well as certain uh you know,

858
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,400
as well as organization at scale of hundreds of millions

859
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:21,039
of people quite literally, you know, it's not you can't

860
01:00:21,079 --> 01:00:26,159
even if you're a chief executive or a general who's

861
01:00:26,159 --> 01:00:30,880
got a great deal of of authority, you know, intrinsic

862
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:34,320
not just to his mandate, but you know, in terms

863
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,760
of you know, key decision makers subservient to him being

864
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,239
willing to execute his orders basically without a centation. It's

865
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,639
just not possible. Okay, It's that's not the way, that's

866
01:00:43,679 --> 01:00:47,320
not the way. That's not the way human systems work,

867
01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:54,119
and that calls for certain remedies when we're talking about

868
01:00:54,159 --> 01:00:58,559
something like nuclear war planning, you know, where quite literally

869
01:00:58,599 --> 01:01:01,280
decisions need to be rendered in and it's you know,

870
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,519
but even where that not you know, necessary kind of

871
01:01:06,519 --> 01:01:11,679
remedial measure, you know, to apply and aim to research

872
01:01:11,719 --> 01:01:17,360
and perfect an ongoing way. It was understood that you know,

873
01:01:17,679 --> 01:01:22,039
the way man related to technology was becoming kind of

874
01:01:22,079 --> 01:01:26,760
the key question, not just in terms of fighting future wars,

875
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,920
but you know, in terms of production modalities, in terms

876
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:35,199
of how you know, people at scale perceive information and

877
01:01:35,639 --> 01:01:41,280
you know develop uh developed political sensibilities, which which totally

878
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,559
changed with the advent of television, you know, and the

879
01:01:43,639 --> 01:01:48,960
ability to broadcast you know, over across thousands and thousands

880
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,840
of miles, you know, and it quite literally turned the

881
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:56,880
world into one place in terms of you know, the uh,

882
01:01:56,599 --> 01:02:04,199
the the concepts being you know asserted and early on

883
01:02:05,079 --> 01:02:08,920
kind of the earliest game theorist, uh, I mean, he

884
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:10,880
was a game theorist some of the many other things,

885
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:16,960
but kind of the first uh, public intellectual who really

886
01:02:17,159 --> 01:02:19,679
sort of articulated this and and in like a very

887
01:02:20,079 --> 01:02:25,519
kind of concrete form was was a guy named Norbert

888
01:02:25,639 --> 01:02:30,800
Norbert Winer. Okay, he published a book called Cybernetics, or

889
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:36,239
Control and Communication and the Animal and the Machine. That

890
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,639
sounds very strange and almost kind of science fiction like,

891
01:02:39,719 --> 01:02:43,679
but I wire was a consumately serious person. He wasn't

892
01:02:43,719 --> 01:02:52,320
some crank, and he coined the term cybernetics, and uh,

893
01:02:52,639 --> 01:02:57,480
within Winer's vernacular, cybernetics quite literally referred to self regulating

894
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:02,119
mechanisms of all kinds. He cited the earliest examples of

895
01:03:02,519 --> 01:03:06,199
you know, servo mechanisms, you know, be them hydraulic electric

896
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:10,320
mechanical that were error sensitive and their feedback you know,

897
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,599
even like something like a Roman aqueduct, you know, in

898
01:03:13,599 --> 01:03:16,000
in a primitive way, not primitive in terms of its construction,

899
01:03:16,119 --> 01:03:19,000
but primitive in terms of you know, the applied technology utilized,

900
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,400
you know was wasn't It was an example of you know,

901
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:30,800
error sensitive machine learning. Okay, Now, when you add humans

902
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,239
into the equation, I you need a human operator at

903
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,239
at least, you know, in a at least to initiate

904
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:42,360
machine processes. You've got to take care, you know, to

905
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:49,320
structure how that relationship ensues and how it is sustained

906
01:03:49,519 --> 01:03:54,119
throughout the duration of processes. Okay, there's got to be

907
01:03:54,239 --> 01:03:58,039
mutual intelligibility, you know, between what the human mind is

908
01:03:58,039 --> 01:04:01,320
telling the machine to do. Uh, and the human mind

909
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,440
has to be not only comfortable, like literally physically carntible

910
01:04:05,239 --> 01:04:09,719
with the machine that it's operating, but it's also got

911
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:13,079
to be sensitive to you know, the feedback emergent from

912
01:04:13,079 --> 01:04:18,039
the machine. Okay. One of the reasons why and Whiner

913
01:04:18,159 --> 01:04:21,960
was sensitive to this there was such a revolt of

914
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,159
the laboring cast. When there truly was a laboring cast,

915
01:04:26,039 --> 01:04:29,000
you know, working on an assembly line of any kind,

916
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:30,880
whether it was a slaughterhouse or whether it was you know,

917
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:36,559
a or whether it was a textile mill. In the

918
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:40,320
early twentieth century, it was incredibly unpleasant. It was difficult,

919
01:04:40,519 --> 01:04:46,199
it was physically painful. The there was not a good

920
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:52,280
coupling that had been achieved between the human operator and

921
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,239
the machine. You know, the human felt overwhelmed by the machine,

922
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,960
or the machine was forcing a pace of work, you

923
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,320
know that the human couldn't keep up without significant pain

924
01:05:01,519 --> 01:05:04,960
or sometimes at all. You know, these machines often are dangerous,

925
01:05:05,679 --> 01:05:09,199
and even when functioning is intended, you know, they they

926
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:12,800
they harm people, you know, And that's not that that's

927
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:16,719
gonna do a couple of things. I mean, it's gonna

928
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,679
do more than a couple of things. But first and foremost,

929
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:24,679
it's going to create certain inefficiencies and choke points. And

930
01:05:24,719 --> 01:05:27,760
it's also gonna hurt people, which itself is not good.

931
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,559
I mean, I think we're gonnall agree on that. But

932
01:05:30,639 --> 01:05:34,360
also it's gonna really gonna sour the human operators view

933
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:39,119
of the machine, you know, and even if only subcasually,

934
01:05:39,159 --> 01:05:41,960
even if even a very duty bound or conscientious person

935
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:44,559
or a true believer, you know, particularly somebody in a

936
01:05:44,559 --> 01:05:47,920
military role who you know, copies that role they're in.

937
01:05:48,599 --> 01:05:51,039
You know, if if if this machine causes them pain

938
01:05:51,159 --> 01:05:54,639
or difficulty or frightens them, or you know, they they

939
01:05:54,639 --> 01:05:56,840
they're always worried that they're gonna be somehow harmed or

940
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,559
meaned by it, that that's going to compromise their ability

941
01:05:59,559 --> 01:06:06,000
to interfere and function as intended. So what Winer did

942
01:06:06,199 --> 01:06:09,320
was he said, look, you know, these machines need to

943
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,719
be accessible, you know, and the ability to initiate and

944
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:16,320
program them in a rudimentary way as intended, you know,

945
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:20,239
at the critical moment required. You know, it's gotta it's

946
01:06:20,239 --> 01:06:22,920
gotta be. He's talking about like you're talking about being

947
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,440
user friendly. Okay, I mean, nobody use those terms then,

948
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:27,719
but that's that's what he was talking about. And he

949
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:29,840
also said that, you know, one of the ways not

950
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:34,400
just to kind of guarantee you know, an appropriate coppling

951
01:06:36,119 --> 01:06:39,119
that's both safe and efficient to the human operator, but

952
01:06:39,199 --> 01:06:42,119
that also you know, is gonna is gonna you know,

953
01:06:42,199 --> 01:06:44,840
create a kind of punctuated advance and our ability to

954
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:48,079
develop you know, machines that truly learn, you know, through

955
01:06:48,079 --> 01:06:51,320
irresensitive feedback. Is you know, He's like, we've got to

956
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,840
start structuring machines like we would a human nervous system. Okay,

957
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:56,880
not literally and say like, you know, okay, this is

958
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,079
the way the brain is structured. You know, I've got

959
01:06:59,079 --> 01:07:02,400
to make my I've gotta tweak my Babbage device to

960
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,840
look more like that brain. Obviously, but you know, it

961
01:07:06,239 --> 01:07:10,119
couldn't be something totally alien and you know, to what

962
01:07:10,599 --> 01:07:12,159
I mean at the end of the day, you know,

963
01:07:12,199 --> 01:07:16,159
like the human brain is just an incredibly complicated, highly

964
01:07:16,159 --> 01:07:20,000
evolved like you know, uh like feedback mechanism for the

965
01:07:20,039 --> 01:07:22,000
purposes we're talking about. Okay, I mean it's a lot

966
01:07:22,039 --> 01:07:25,920
more than that. But you know, so uh making machine

967
01:07:26,079 --> 01:07:29,199
thinking or machine learning at that you know, as it

968
01:07:29,239 --> 01:07:32,119
was understood at that time as human like as possible

969
01:07:32,199 --> 01:07:35,880
in rudimentary terms, Okay, that that wasn't just a way

970
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:39,119
of you know, kind of guaranteeing you know, maximum efficiency

971
01:07:39,639 --> 01:07:41,800
you know, in terms of the the interface of the

972
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:46,679
human or like the animal in uh liners terminology with

973
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:49,599
the machine. But it also he said, this is the

974
01:07:49,639 --> 01:07:53,639
path that kind of you know, greater development in terms

975
01:07:53,719 --> 01:07:56,360
of you know, in terms of our in terms of

976
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,079
our design engineering. Okay, And I think I think it

977
01:07:59,079 --> 01:08:02,280
goes out saying is right about that if you if

978
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:04,039
you cud of like the brass tacks, what guys like

979
01:08:04,079 --> 01:08:07,239
Steve Jobs we're talking about, you know, And I'm not

980
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,119
I'm not a computer guy or a tech guy at all,

981
01:08:09,159 --> 01:08:11,599
but I've read a lot about Jobs because for better

982
01:08:11,639 --> 01:08:14,960
or worse, he was a very significant personage. And when

983
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:18,279
he talks about design, optics and aesthetics, you can tell

984
01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:20,479
he's doing it like the way like a guy who's

985
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:23,319
not an engineer, but he's more an engineer than he

986
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:25,319
is like some artists, or like you know, kind of

987
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:27,960
eccentric like architect. I know, I tried to convey the

988
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,640
image of the latter, but he was the former. And

989
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:33,720
I guarantee that he said. I guarantee that as a

990
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:37,119
young man he definitely read cybernetics, and if he didn't,

991
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,680
you know, like the stuff he was reading was so

992
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,359
insinuated with that kind of ethos, but like everybody way

993
01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:45,199
to describe it, that he very much took that on

994
01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:49,000
as his own. Okay. And also just I mean Winer

995
01:08:49,039 --> 01:08:50,800
didn't just make these things up. I mean, there's an

996
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:56,239
intrinsic Uh, there's a there's like an intrinsic existential reality

997
01:08:56,279 --> 01:08:58,039
to these things. He was positive, you know, it's just

998
01:08:58,319 --> 01:09:01,359
that's the way machines work, that's the way humans think

999
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:04,960
and feel, that's the way they interface in very basic terms,

1000
01:09:05,119 --> 01:09:13,560
and cybernetics and like the postulates there in. That was

1001
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,600
really the earliest. That was really the earliest discussion of

1002
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:21,680
you know, audit, automated navigation, analog computing in the way

1003
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,720
that we understand it or understood it, you know, in

1004
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:26,960
the later twentieth century, and you know, which was the

1005
01:09:27,039 --> 01:09:29,399
you know, the forebear of it as we know it.

1006
01:09:30,199 --> 01:09:32,439
This is the first time people talked about AI in

1007
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:37,920
an applied capacity. It uh, it led to neuroscientific modeling,

1008
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:45,520
and most importantly, uher Reiner was always it was always uh,

1009
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:49,520
it was always emphasizing the importance of communication and communication

1010
01:09:50,239 --> 01:09:54,760
regime and also UH like physical structure like across distance

1011
01:09:55,399 --> 01:09:58,319
that was integrated, that was reliable, and most importantly, that

1012
01:09:58,359 --> 01:10:01,119
was survivable. Okay, And I said was importantly not not

1013
01:10:01,159 --> 01:10:04,800
just the general proposition, but in the case of nuclear war,

1014
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:11,279
I mean that's everything, you know. So these are things

1015
01:10:11,279 --> 01:10:14,800
to understand. We're talking about nuclear war, We're talking about

1016
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:18,039
the Cold War paradigm, and especially in the UH in

1017
01:10:18,079 --> 01:10:22,479
the final UH in the final in the final phase

1018
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:27,159
of the Cold War, the Cold War conflict paradigm. Okay,

1019
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:34,560
it these things, UH can't be overstated. And it like

1020
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:38,560
the desires of of human decision makers, you know, particularly

1021
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:41,119
those you know in public roles, it really was not

1022
01:10:41,319 --> 01:10:46,239
up to them, like the course of of of events

1023
01:10:47,279 --> 01:10:51,560
in in terms of crisis UH resolution or you know,

1024
01:10:53,159 --> 01:10:58,520
the deterioration of of of remedial strategies you know, in

1025
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:05,319
in the general war. But the the UH, it's very

1026
01:11:05,319 --> 01:11:10,439
clear too, you know both. It's even people who uh,

1027
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:14,119
even people who write pretty good histories of the late

1028
01:11:14,159 --> 01:11:21,640
Cold War, like the guy what's his freak, Yeah, Mark Ambinder, Sorry,

1029
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:27,479
I was having a senior moment, Ambinder. He he deemphasizes

1030
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,199
the degree to which kind of like the trajectory of

1031
01:11:30,239 --> 01:11:33,680
American policy very much had a nuclear vector. And what

1032
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:37,520
I mean by that is that you know, UH us

1033
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:42,439
UH global policy and in not just in a hard

1034
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:45,800
power of terms, but but just in general terms, it

1035
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:52,079
really orbited around you know, America's nuclear capability. Uh, it's

1036
01:11:52,159 --> 01:11:55,199
ability to wield Dad's a credible threat. You know, the

1037
01:11:55,279 --> 01:11:58,680
response of the Eastern Bloc and the Soviet Union as

1038
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:00,680
well as China, I mean, despite the China by that

1039
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:04,399
point have been courted quite successfully as a strategic ali

1040
01:12:06,079 --> 01:12:08,039
This was the This was the variable or set of

1041
01:12:08,119 --> 01:12:14,399
variables that everything revolved around between the superpowers. Okay, some

1042
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:19,840
mean there's that too, even Uh. It just the existence

1043
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,600
of these capabilities and uh, you know, the continuing emergence

1044
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:27,880
and new technologies to to perfect the effectiveness of these

1045
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:33,119
things kind of dictated the course of policy between the superpowers.

1046
01:12:33,279 --> 01:12:35,920
It doesn't matter what anybody's rhetoric was. It doesn't matter

1047
01:12:36,239 --> 01:12:38,760
what anyboy's intentions were or how much they made very

1048
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:40,399
well have been committed to peace, you know, I don't

1049
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:45,800
I don't doubt that. You know, some of the things

1050
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,279
Bredon have said before he lost his marbles, and you

1051
01:12:48,319 --> 01:12:50,800
know about the Soviet Union must avoid you know general

1052
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:52,640
lookally word all costs. I'm sure that he meant that.

1053
01:12:53,159 --> 01:12:55,640
I'm sure Reagan like corny and kind of made for

1054
01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:58,039
sound by television, as some of the things he said

1055
01:12:58,039 --> 01:13:00,880
in the matter may have been. I think earnestly believe

1056
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:07,359
those things. But moving on the way the Soviet Union

1057
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:15,760
responded to this emergent strategic landscape was very interesting. In

1058
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:21,399
nineteen eighty one, the Soviets launched the biggest peace time, dedicated,

1059
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:25,439
peace time intelligence operation in its entire history, which says

1060
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:27,319
a lot because the Soviet Union, for the duration of

1061
01:13:27,319 --> 01:13:31,800
its existence really was mobilized for war in a way

1062
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:37,680
that even you know, even America in the nineteen eighties,

1063
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:42,319
which which was very much you know, on a war footing,

1064
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:50,119
would would would view as extreme. And drop Off, who

1065
01:13:50,319 --> 01:13:53,239
in nineteen eighty one was u was still a year

1066
01:13:53,279 --> 01:13:58,359
away from uh, you know, a sending of the role

1067
01:13:58,399 --> 01:14:01,199
of General secretary. As I've said before, I believe, I

1068
01:14:01,239 --> 01:14:04,279
believe he himself, Gramico and ustan Off were very much

1069
01:14:04,359 --> 01:14:06,720
kind of that tried effected the content good shadow government.

1070
01:14:07,239 --> 01:14:10,119
But he was the eminence behind the KGB really for

1071
01:14:10,119 --> 01:14:12,880
the duration of his of his of his life, okay,

1072
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:20,319
and on strategic matters, oh on Sundry and I can

1073
01:14:20,319 --> 01:14:22,600
tell you that in nineteen eighty one, you know, the

1074
01:14:23,159 --> 01:14:25,119
and drop I was the key decision maker and those

1075
01:14:25,119 --> 01:14:30,600
in immediate orbit, what what what this this intelligence operation

1076
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:35,479
was called Project Rion or Ryan literally r y a N.

1077
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:41,640
It's an acronym that uh for a Russian language phrase

1078
01:14:42,239 --> 01:14:46,800
which translates to nuclear missile attack or nuclear missile assault

1079
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:48,239
or something in that order. I'm not going to try

1080
01:14:48,279 --> 01:14:50,680
to pronounce it and butcher it and embarrass myself. But

1081
01:14:52,399 --> 01:14:56,800
the entire purpose of Rayon or Rion was this. And

1082
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:02,000
drop of address he members of the poet Gul as

1083
01:15:02,039 --> 01:15:07,159
well as uh, the the general staff, and he said, look,

1084
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:12,119
you know, we're we're losing the code war on key fronts,

1085
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:18,800
you know, political and technological that very much nullify our

1086
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:21,800
are the advantages we do have. And one of those

1087
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:26,079
fronts was in in computing. I think there's there was

1088
01:15:26,159 --> 01:15:30,119
less than a thousand computers in uh the Soviet Union

1089
01:15:30,119 --> 01:15:32,000
in nineteen eighty one. I mean to give you an idea,

1090
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:34,840
you know, which is bizarre. What do you think about it?

1091
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,680
That the Soviet Union and they they logged far more

1092
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:40,760
man hours in space flight than the United States head

1093
01:15:41,399 --> 01:15:43,239
and uh, you know they were they were crying out

1094
01:15:43,279 --> 01:15:47,520
these chess masters who you know, uh, we were schooled

1095
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:51,199
in uh in formal the kind of formal logic that

1096
01:15:51,199 --> 01:15:53,319
that in America, like really built, you know, like the

1097
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:56,399
you know, the kind of like early like analog computing industry.

1098
01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:04,319
But that's that warrantance dedicated episode Like how uh uh

1099
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:08,359
the uh like, how how computing in the Soviet Union

1100
01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:12,800
really was? It really was sabotaged. Oh, you know, like

1101
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:17,239
interesting rivalries within the design bureaus, you know. And you

1102
01:16:17,239 --> 01:16:21,239
you can't create a high tech economy, you know, based

1103
01:16:21,279 --> 01:16:23,800
on a central plan. I mean, I mean, I mean

1104
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:27,439
you can't. You can't base the traditional manufacturing economy and

1105
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:31,680
on a central plan. But particularly you're talking about high

1106
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:35,880
tech and I t I mean, it's you're you know,

1107
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:38,000
there's just no there's just no chance that it's going

1108
01:16:38,079 --> 01:16:42,039
to produce what's required, you know, in order to meet

1109
01:16:42,039 --> 01:16:46,920
the meet the needs of of you know, of nuclear

1110
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:50,880
war command and control planning. But with what they did have,

1111
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:56,800
what uh what what Project Rihannim to do was to

1112
01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:02,680
anticipate a bolt from the blue nuclear strike by using, uh,

1113
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:07,359
the computing technology they did have alongside human analysts to

1114
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:13,600
monitor indicators, to identify monitor codable indicators you know, from

1115
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:19,279
the United States and NATO, and uh determine when these

1116
01:17:19,319 --> 01:17:28,239
indicators could be relied upon. That you know to to

1117
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:34,000
that that that that an imminent nuclear assault was you know,

1118
01:17:34,159 --> 01:17:38,760
was a foot such that uh, with the technologies of

1119
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:42,680
the day, apparently with submarine launched ballistic missile platforms, you know,

1120
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:45,720
as well as intermediate range missiles, which you know, if

1121
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:49,720
deployed in the theater by NATO, would reach their targets

1122
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:52,239
you know, within fire or ten minutes, you know where

1123
01:17:52,319 --> 01:17:55,119
we're talking about. It's not you know, early warning is

1124
01:17:55,159 --> 01:17:57,319
not enough. I mean, no matter how sensitive it is,

1125
01:17:57,359 --> 01:17:59,800
no matter how possible to spoof it is. You know,

1126
01:17:59,880 --> 01:18:03,720
like before before there's any but there's where there's any

1127
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:07,039
commanding control indicator in America in nineteen eighty one, you

1128
01:18:07,079 --> 01:18:10,239
know that Strategic Air Command, you know, is going to

1129
01:18:10,319 --> 01:18:14,439
scramble its heavy bombers. You know that that the the

1130
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:17,159
miniman missiles are about to emerge in their silos. Like

1131
01:18:17,199 --> 01:18:19,600
you've got to be able to identify the variables before

1132
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:26,680
there's any actual you know, command and control indicator, which

1133
01:18:27,199 --> 01:18:30,199
I mean it says a dawning proposition, I mean, doesn't

1134
01:18:30,359 --> 01:18:34,359
It is almost comically inadequate. But it also it creates

1135
01:18:34,359 --> 01:18:36,279
a very dangerous circumstance. If you've got to be able

1136
01:18:36,279 --> 01:18:43,840
to identify evident assault indicators you know, based upon you know, uh,

1137
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:53,399
based upon apparently benign events and human behaviors at scale

1138
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:56,439
that could very very easily be misread. I mean, this

1139
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:59,439
goes beyond fog of work kind of stuff. But it

1140
01:18:59,479 --> 01:19:02,960
also this is a difficult question. You know, It's like, Okay,

1141
01:19:03,039 --> 01:19:07,680
let's say let's say that there could let's say, let's

1142
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:13,439
say attack indicators, you know, codable attack indicators could in

1143
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:20,640
fact be reliably identified, and that there was a machine that, uh,

1144
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:25,560
you know, could pretty reliably evaluate these things and could

1145
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:29,119
I'm smollifying this for the saying with counterfactual, you know,

1146
01:19:29,279 --> 01:19:34,600
spit out a probability ratio of what the likelihood is

1147
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:38,239
that you know, these indicators mean, you know, an attackism

1148
01:19:38,279 --> 01:19:42,199
in it if there's a ten percent probability you know,

1149
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:45,399
if you preempted with your own attack, if it's anything

1150
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:48,319
over fifty percent, if it's one percent, like you see

1151
01:19:48,359 --> 01:19:52,880
what I mean, like it where you're you're you're running

1152
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:57,880
into a kind of paradigm where increasingly, like the winner

1153
01:19:59,079 --> 01:20:03,000
is gonna be the one who just preempts in absolute

1154
01:20:03,119 --> 01:20:07,399
terms and when he's confident that you know, he can

1155
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:13,279
at least survive a retaliatory strike, just perverse incentives to

1156
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:15,399
attack even when not in a reminted threat.

1157
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:20,159
Speaker 1: If you follow me, well, this wasn't anything new at

1158
01:20:20,199 --> 01:20:24,359
the time. I mean, Ellsberg talks in his books about how,

1159
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:28,119
you know, the the department he was in in the

1160
01:20:28,199 --> 01:20:31,119
late fifties and early sixties, they were war gaming this.

1161
01:20:31,319 --> 01:20:33,159
They they had already come up with the concept of

1162
01:20:33,159 --> 01:20:34,960
the nuclear sponge by that point.

1163
01:20:35,239 --> 01:20:42,079
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what changed, uh parody. It wasn't until

1164
01:20:42,119 --> 01:20:44,920
nineteen seventy five that there was true nuclear parody between

1165
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:49,680
natal and Warsaw Pact. That's why these guys like LeMay

1166
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:54,039
and even Thomas Powers, who gets kind of Thomas Powers

1167
01:20:54,039 --> 01:20:56,439
was actually the model for Jack d Ripper and Strange Love.

1168
01:20:56,520 --> 01:20:59,039
It wasn't le May, but le May was gonna similarly

1169
01:21:00,079 --> 01:21:05,920
Lampoon Lambastard. Their whole notion was that if you know, eventually,

1170
01:21:06,159 --> 01:21:08,800
you know, a general nuclear war is imminent with the

1171
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:12,359
Soviet Union, We've got to go to war. Now, if

1172
01:21:12,399 --> 01:21:14,920
you wait ten years, there's gonna be nuclear parody. We

1173
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,960
can't win that, you know. Now, Yeah, we'll take fifty

1174
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:23,000
million dead, but will survive. They won't. Plus, there was

1175
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:26,960
one of the reasons why the Salt Talks kind of

1176
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:31,359
became obsolescent. It wasn't just that, you know, this Soviet

1177
01:21:31,399 --> 01:21:34,840
invasion of Afghanistan meant that the State Department and as

1178
01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:37,319
well as Congress no longer had any interest in, you know,

1179
01:21:37,399 --> 01:21:40,319
pursuing a follow up kind of regime until much later.

1180
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:45,479
We'll talk about that later. But like deeper parodies, you know,

1181
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:52,199
multiple warheads, you know, being slammed onto existing presisting platforms,

1182
01:21:52,479 --> 01:21:55,560
you know, creating like this, these these massive throw weights,

1183
01:21:55,800 --> 01:22:00,399
you know, create like reduced circular error probable, know, the

1184
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:04,960
perfection of penetration aids and decoys, you know, the ability

1185
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:09,760
to spoof enemy early warning, and the emergence of AI

1186
01:22:10,399 --> 01:22:13,960
you know, like the uh, the movie War Games is

1187
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:16,640
actually a great film, and it's a smart film. I

1188
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:20,199
Mean some stuff in its corny because it's Hollywood and

1189
01:22:20,239 --> 01:22:22,520
it's you know, uh a movie that was aimed at

1190
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:25,920
like teenagers, but some of it's actually very smart and

1191
01:22:26,039 --> 01:22:30,960
uh the opening uh, like the opening sequence where you

1192
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:33,680
know they're running this command post exercise, you know, and

1193
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:35,640
one of the miss layers won't turn his key. That

1194
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:37,920
was part of the issue. But then in the movie,

1195
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:41,319
like the civilian advisor I think's supposed to be Thomas Schelling.

1196
01:22:42,119 --> 01:22:45,239
He says like, look like why we we can't we

1197
01:22:45,279 --> 01:22:47,920
can we can't wait until you know it's clear Ivan's

1198
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:50,199
gonna assault. You know, we gotta know he's gonna assault

1199
01:22:50,279 --> 01:22:52,840
him before he does, you know, which he was there

1200
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:57,439
was like gallows humor. But it's also not entirely inaccurate.

1201
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:00,680
I mean, that's that's what was changing things. Plus the

1202
01:23:02,119 --> 01:23:06,119
you know, like I said, the in nuclear war, if

1203
01:23:06,119 --> 01:23:09,760
you're being able to identify an attack is underway, characterize

1204
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:13,840
the nature of that attack, then interminal response based on

1205
01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:19,720
survive surviving forces or probable surviving forces, and then giving

1206
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:24,000
the order to retaliate. In nineteen sixty you probably had

1207
01:23:24,039 --> 01:23:26,880
about an hour to do that, Okay. In nineteen eighty one,

1208
01:23:27,119 --> 01:23:31,199
you had ten minutes to do that. You know, arguably

1209
01:23:31,199 --> 01:23:34,079
you had five minutes. Like by the time the Soviet

1210
01:23:34,159 --> 01:23:40,720
Union fell apart. It's basic, it's basic assault strategy was

1211
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:49,680
gonna be it always parked U two typhoon class submarines

1212
01:23:51,159 --> 01:23:55,960
within striking range of the eastern United States. Okay. The

1213
01:23:56,039 --> 01:23:58,640
idea was that they were going to launch a volley

1214
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:06,399
of of of submarine launched boistic missiles at depressed depressed

1215
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:09,640
trajectory that would air burst over the entire East coast

1216
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:15,000
and you know, create an EMP blackout, then follow up

1217
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,640
with a massive volley and basically like annihilate the eastern

1218
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:20,640
United States. And you know, if they could do that

1219
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:25,359
fast enough and assuming their systems went off without you know,

1220
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:30,279
a glitch or whatever, they had a reasonable probability of

1221
01:24:30,319 --> 01:24:32,199
winning a nuclear war if it was truly like a

1222
01:24:32,239 --> 01:24:34,760
bolt from the blue attack. You know, stuff like this

1223
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:37,479
wasn't possible in Elsberg's day. He was foreseeing that it

1224
01:24:37,520 --> 01:24:39,640
would be at some point, even if he couldn't foresee

1225
01:24:39,640 --> 01:24:43,560
the exact platforms. But by nineteen eighty one there was

1226
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:49,000
parody as regards forces and being and arguably, uh, the

1227
01:24:49,039 --> 01:24:53,600
Soviet Union had the edge. You know. And like I said,

1228
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:55,199
this is in terms of data that since the wall

1229
01:24:55,279 --> 01:24:58,399
came down, it's been verified. It's not just it wasn't

1230
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:00,960
just like missile gap nonsense, you know, the kind that

1231
01:25:01,039 --> 01:25:05,039
people were banning in nineteen sixty election. Uh, you know

1232
01:25:05,119 --> 01:25:10,880
creates this kind of doing cityway just idea Yeah that

1233
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:16,720
you know, Uh, there there's a gap in American in

1234
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:21,560
uh in uh, in American in a in an American

1235
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:27,319
defense capabilities, you know, visa the Warsaw Pact, that's what

1236
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:32,520
that's what changed. And plus the UH you know the

1237
01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:34,359
I mean, that's the problem with anything else designed to

1238
01:25:34,399 --> 01:25:38,600
preserve the the design to preserve stability. You don't know

1239
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,119
whether you're talking about like you know, the strategic arms

1240
01:25:41,119 --> 01:25:43,600
limitation talks, you know, whether you're talking about these arms

1241
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:46,880
reduction agreements. You know, you can't you can't just freeze

1242
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,039
technology in situ. You know, It's like and even if

1243
01:25:50,039 --> 01:25:51,359
you you know, you were, even if you live in

1244
01:25:51,399 --> 01:25:54,760
the number of platforms, those platforms have become more efficient,

1245
01:25:55,039 --> 01:25:59,239
but become more effective, you know, uh, the killing technology

1246
01:26:00,119 --> 01:26:05,600
will become more and more catastrophically utile, you know, things

1247
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:12,920
like this, and uh. Plus to the UH orbital space,

1248
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:17,199
you know, becoming the key kind of emergent battle theater

1249
01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:21,079
was changing things too, because you know, you launched like

1250
01:26:21,199 --> 01:26:23,680
the Outer Space Treaty, you know, technically banned orbit of

1251
01:26:23,720 --> 01:26:27,279
bombardment platforms. That didn't mean anything. And also the Space

1252
01:26:27,279 --> 01:26:32,359
Shuttle obviously was UH. What was a UH was was

1253
01:26:32,399 --> 01:26:35,560
an orbit of bombardment delivery mechanism. I mean, it was

1254
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:38,640
it was uh. It was other things too, but you

1255
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:42,399
know that that's that was first and foremost. Its role.

1256
01:26:42,439 --> 01:26:45,319
It wasn't its rule wasn't to take you know, civilian

1257
01:26:45,359 --> 01:26:48,399
school teachers into space to do experiments on goldfish and

1258
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:53,239
zero gravity or something. But these are the things that

1259
01:26:53,279 --> 01:26:57,720
were kind of destabilizing what had been. I mean, the

1260
01:26:57,720 --> 01:27:00,399
the paradigm was never truly stable, that's by people say,

1261
01:27:00,479 --> 01:27:06,039
but it was becoming unmanageable, like owing to these owing

1262
01:27:06,079 --> 01:27:13,319
to these variables. This really reached the zenith in UH

1263
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:17,920
nineteen eighty three. You know, there was the there's the

1264
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:23,079
Able Archer Command Post exercise in in November seventh, and

1265
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:30,239
that was really that that was really the way to

1266
01:27:30,279 --> 01:27:32,000
look at that too. I mean, for those that don't know,

1267
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:37,439
there's this bi annual exercise called reforger UH, which was

1268
01:27:37,479 --> 01:27:40,119
short military short end for Return of Forces to Germany.

1269
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:44,479
It was this UH. It was this mass military exercise.

1270
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:50,199
We're in UH the forces and being in UH in Germany,

1271
01:27:50,279 --> 01:27:53,359
and there was about three hundred thousand US troops. They

1272
01:27:53,359 --> 01:27:58,560
are backed up by a contingent of about two hundred

1273
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:03,039
thousand other natal elements, contributions by the naval omens I mean,

1274
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:07,079
but the Reforger exercise was an event of a general

1275
01:28:07,199 --> 01:28:11,680
war in Europe with warsaw packs. How rapidly can we

1276
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:16,319
can we reinforce those forces and being deployed to Europe,

1277
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:20,640
you know before they were totally overrun by Warsaw pacts. Okay,

1278
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:22,560
So I mean it was actually important. It wasn't just

1279
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:26,319
a make work fake work thing. I mean actually on

1280
01:28:26,319 --> 01:28:29,880
on the logistics side and the commanding control side, this

1281
01:28:29,960 --> 01:28:34,560
actually was important operationally, and it also demonstrated UH political

1282
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:37,520
will to the Warsaw Pact, and that was important. What

1283
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:43,640
able R Trad three was was UH concombinant with Reforger.

1284
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:50,199
It was a command post nuclear war simulation, and it

1285
01:28:50,319 --> 01:28:54,760
included even civilian UH chief executives, you know, like Margaret

1286
01:28:54,760 --> 01:28:57,880
Thatcher like went to her uh you know when when

1287
01:28:57,960 --> 01:29:02,960
when went to like the designated you know, UH follog shelter,

1288
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:08,840
you know, uh the helmet cole was similarly like does

1289
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:12,760
a beer from sight. I mean, when you consider Project REN,

1290
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:16,600
I mean you consider, you know, the kinds of deep

1291
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:20,640
parodies that were causing real alarm on on both sides

1292
01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:26,880
of UH the Cold War, this seems incredibly risky, you know,

1293
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:31,079
because what you're doing is this command post exercise. And

1294
01:29:31,159 --> 01:29:33,399
you know that the Russians have been attacked many times

1295
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:36,960
under the auspices of you know, peaceful military exercises by

1296
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:41,880
their enemies. So there's that. But then also pretty much

1297
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:44,960
every indicator of an imminent bolt from the blue nuclear

1298
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:54,640
result was emergent in uh, the able Archer exercise. Okay. Now, now,

1299
01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:58,760
on the one hand, yeah, if you're if you're if

1300
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:01,000
you're gonnapply on a nuclear ward to win it, you've

1301
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:03,239
got to run those kinds of exercises, okay, and they've

1302
01:30:03,279 --> 01:30:05,720
got to be as real as possible. And also if

1303
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:10,079
you want true data on how fast you know, the

1304
01:30:10,119 --> 01:30:14,680
Warsaw Pact, you know, you know, in then in existence

1305
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:18,439
at that moment, you know how fast they would respond,

1306
01:30:19,119 --> 01:30:22,159
you know, uh to being spoofed. You know that that's

1307
01:30:22,199 --> 01:30:24,960
how you corral your data about you know what the

1308
01:30:25,039 --> 01:30:28,600
response time, how fast it's gonna be, and what stuff

1309
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:32,399
it's gonna entail in a real war situation. So yeah,

1310
01:30:32,479 --> 01:30:35,159
I mean, there's there's there's a deep internal logic to that.

1311
01:30:35,239 --> 01:30:38,600
But it also there's a very good chance that you know,

1312
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:42,359
your enemy will perceive this as you know, indicators of

1313
01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:45,920
an actual attack and you can find yourself in a

1314
01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:53,319
general nuclear war very very easily. That Uh it's both

1315
01:30:53,359 --> 01:30:57,520
instructive as to you know, not how tense things were

1316
01:30:59,359 --> 01:31:04,920
between you know, actors, but also uh it shows you, uh,

1317
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:07,760
the degree to which you know, like we were talking

1318
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:12,640
about a minute ago, the degree the degree to which

1319
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:17,960
you know, conditions of of absolute peace, you know, could

1320
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:21,319
become conditions that general nuclear war. I mean rapidly, you know,

1321
01:31:21,399 --> 01:31:23,159
there wasn't. There wasn't this kind of like you know,

1322
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:27,119
scaled escalation over you know, over days or weeks or

1323
01:31:27,119 --> 01:31:34,840
even hours. You know. The second aspect of this was Reagan, uh,

1324
01:31:37,359 --> 01:31:41,720
you know, kind of prompted about people like Kasper Weinberger

1325
01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:48,159
and a lot of the Team B types Reagan had. Reagan,

1326
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:52,640
he Green led the deployment of the person too intermediate

1327
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:59,399
range ballistic missile platform to Europe, to the Buddhist Republic,

1328
01:31:59,479 --> 01:32:04,479
to uh Italy, to the Netherlands, some of the UK,

1329
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:09,079
I believe, but I don't think they ever arrived. This

1330
01:32:09,119 --> 01:32:12,760
would have, uh, this would have given NATO a profound

1331
01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:19,239
edge on in theater nuclear weapons and so deployed, Uh,

1332
01:32:19,479 --> 01:32:25,800
they could reach Moscow within minutes. Okay, this really terrified

1333
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:31,479
Soviet war planners, and for good reason. And there's a

1334
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:33,760
nuance here too that I can't remember we raised it

1335
01:32:33,800 --> 01:32:39,760
for or not, but ironically, owing to uh, you know, politics,

1336
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,720
NATO was very forward deployed. Like literally the way it

1337
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:49,399
was deployed in West Germany, in the Netherlands, in you know,

1338
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:54,319
all all throughout the the continent. It was not deployed

1339
01:32:54,319 --> 01:32:58,399
at all in depth and specifically in Germany. Looking at

1340
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:04,159
a map of NATO deployment, US, Benelux British forces were

1341
01:33:04,159 --> 01:33:08,520
in offensive deployment, Okay, like they can't be denied. So

1342
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:10,399
if you're raying now, some of that had to do with,

1343
01:33:10,439 --> 01:33:12,239
you know, there's a way kind of placating, you know,

1344
01:33:12,319 --> 01:33:15,119
people like the Greens who who literally didn't want, you know,

1345
01:33:15,199 --> 01:33:18,359
like NATO forces to be seen, you know, and uh,

1346
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:21,840
it was a way of kind of mitigating the kind

1347
01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:24,439
of besic hostility over the fact that Germany quite literally

1348
01:33:24,479 --> 01:33:27,760
was occupied. There's all kinds of things, but it was

1349
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:30,560
also you know, the understanding was if warsaw if in

1350
01:33:30,640 --> 01:33:33,880
one warsaw pack moves, you know, like what difference does

1351
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:35,840
it make we can deploy in depth a we want

1352
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:40,720
they're gonna break through, you know. But from the Soviet side,

1353
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:43,079
it's like, okay, we've got NATO in kind of permanent

1354
01:33:43,079 --> 01:33:47,119
offensive deployment. Now there deploying. Now. Now they're deploying these

1355
01:33:47,159 --> 01:33:50,600
pershing two platforms, which are not only not super hard,

1356
01:33:50,640 --> 01:33:53,039
and they're totally vulnerable. I mean, there's no such thing

1357
01:33:53,039 --> 01:33:56,319
as a truly defensive nuclear weapon. But the only way

1358
01:33:56,319 --> 01:33:58,920
you can use a persing cyst platform is if you're

1359
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:01,840
on the attack, you know, like it's because if it's

1360
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:06,680
it's not a survivable uh platform. You know. So the

1361
01:34:06,720 --> 01:34:09,600
Soviets weren't being crazy or weren't crying wolf or something.

1362
01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:14,039
And even even Robert Gates admitted this kind of labor

1363
01:34:14,159 --> 01:34:19,760
in his memoirs, you know, he said, you know, and

1364
01:34:20,079 --> 01:34:24,840
anybody who understands these things and understands what gupl cases

1365
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:28,520
indicators were. Uh, you know, anybody looking at this on

1366
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:32,079
the warsaw Pack's side would have said, you know, these

1367
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:35,840
these people are basically preparing a wage in nuclear blitzkrieg,

1368
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:40,119
you know. And and there was some truth to that. Frankly,

1369
01:34:42,560 --> 01:34:44,920
kind of the genius of Reagan, if you want to

1370
01:34:45,720 --> 01:34:47,840
give him cross for something. And I'm not any any

1371
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:54,279
huge like Reagan fan in history. But uh what uh

1372
01:34:55,439 --> 01:35:01,800
what what Reagan's uh State Department did was they said, well,

1373
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:06,720
you know, we'll remove uh, we'll remove the Pershing twos

1374
01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:13,079
from Europe. Yeah. Oh if all uh if all theater

1375
01:35:13,159 --> 01:35:16,359
based nuclear weapons you know, natalarsaw packed, if we agree

1376
01:35:16,399 --> 01:35:18,359
to move all of them, you know, but that's that's

1377
01:35:18,359 --> 01:35:23,399
the price essentially of of of dismantling the system. And

1378
01:35:23,479 --> 01:35:27,000
I mean two in defensive Reagan had been the the

1379
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:31,920
impetus for the deployment of these platforms. It was because

1380
01:35:32,399 --> 01:35:34,479
they're a hell of a good way if you're gonna

1381
01:35:34,479 --> 01:35:39,680
wage not a nuclear war to to do it. But also, uh,

1382
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:46,840
the Soviet Union, uh, they'd massd s S nineteen's those

1383
01:35:46,840 --> 01:35:51,600
are one of those those one of those physically huge

1384
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:56,239
uh missile systems. You know that we're based on trucks.

1385
01:35:56,479 --> 01:35:58,880
It's kind of brilliant in its simplicity. For those mobile

1386
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:02,279
launch vehicles. The Soviet would move them around every day,

1387
01:36:02,479 --> 01:36:05,439
like literally, so it's would be.

1388
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:08,439
Speaker 1: Like the one from the like the one from the

1389
01:36:08,439 --> 01:36:09,479
movie Spies like us.

1390
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:13,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's so I started a movie.

1391
01:36:14,119 --> 01:36:15,399
I saw it in the theater with my mom and

1392
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:18,920
a little kid. That's hilarious, but that's actually an awesome movie.

1393
01:36:18,960 --> 01:36:24,079
But yeah, the UH, but the Soviet idea was, uh,

1394
01:36:24,199 --> 01:36:28,960
they were threatening Europe with annihilation with UH, with these deployments,

1395
01:36:29,479 --> 01:36:33,520
and they were doing it basically decouple UH Europe's UH

1396
01:36:34,359 --> 01:36:37,319
national security policy and the respective Natal States from that

1397
01:36:37,399 --> 01:36:41,600
of America, basically saying like, look like, you know, if uh,

1398
01:36:42,159 --> 01:36:46,359
if if you avail yourselves to UH, to NATO and

1399
01:36:48,680 --> 01:36:51,239
the United States, you know, the United States is nuclear deterrent.

1400
01:36:51,880 --> 01:36:53,640
You know, you're we consider you to be a fair

1401
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:57,960
target and we're gonna continue to target Western Europe as

1402
01:36:57,960 --> 01:36:59,760
long as that indoors. I mean it was, it was

1403
01:37:00,039 --> 01:37:02,960
and you know, deployment of the person too, was a

1404
01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:10,520
way of rooking that uh, that that ambition. So it's

1405
01:37:10,520 --> 01:37:12,760
more complicated than just Reagan being you know, I'm gonna

1406
01:37:14,039 --> 01:37:16,399
it's still gonna hawk ish. Uh, it's still got a

1407
01:37:16,439 --> 01:37:21,079
reckless hawk and it's it's not just a matter of uh,

1408
01:37:21,239 --> 01:37:25,079
you know, Pentagon types and in defense intelligence types saying well,

1409
01:37:25,159 --> 01:37:28,079
let's spoof, let's spoof Ivan, you know, to the brink

1410
01:37:28,159 --> 01:37:29,680
and see what he does. I mean, there was an

1411
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:33,479
aspect of that too, But it is. It is, uh,

1412
01:37:33,640 --> 01:37:37,880
it is slightly more complicated and more than slightly, but

1413
01:37:37,960 --> 01:37:40,920
it I gotta pause when it to reeth my water.

1414
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:44,319
I'm really dried out. Is that okay? Yeah, I thank

1415
01:37:44,399 --> 01:37:51,079
THEE and yeah, the I mean, on the one hand,

1416
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:56,039
I obviously and I mean this isn't really material were disgusting.

1417
01:37:56,079 --> 01:37:59,479
I mean, obviously, my some of these uh in history

1418
01:37:59,800 --> 01:38:03,319
uh uh are are what you know yackys were, And

1419
01:38:03,399 --> 01:38:06,680
I I realized this is very much a way of

1420
01:38:06,760 --> 01:38:10,880
holding Europe hostage quite literally to the Cold War. But

1421
01:38:10,920 --> 01:38:14,680
at the same time, I mean it within the bounded

1422
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:25,600
rationality of that Europe was afforded. Your Europe was ultimately

1423
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:30,520
made more secure because again Reagan's ultimatum was uh, you know,

1424
01:38:30,880 --> 01:38:34,560
in nuclear for Europe, and that was accomplished, you know, ultimately,

1425
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:38,880
I mean it it it. It wasn't until well into

1426
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:41,159
Reagan's second term and after you know, the kind of

1427
01:38:41,159 --> 01:38:44,319
concuord itcounts with Gruschev. But all these things were a process,

1428
01:38:44,359 --> 01:38:46,000
and you know, like I said, next episode, we'll get

1429
01:38:46,039 --> 01:38:48,199
into the view from the Soviet side quite literally, but

1430
01:38:48,800 --> 01:38:56,279
there had to the crisis. Uh that the crisis cycle

1431
01:38:56,359 --> 01:38:58,840
is becoming more and more critical and if you look

1432
01:38:58,880 --> 01:39:02,720
at it and you know, the uh, the Korean War,

1433
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:07,319
the Chinese intervention in the Korean War, really that that

1434
01:39:07,520 --> 01:39:11,079
very well could have led to a general nuclear war

1435
01:39:12,119 --> 01:39:18,880
a N fifty three, uh not ninety fifty three, ninety

1436
01:39:18,920 --> 01:39:24,279
sixty two in Cuba ninety seventy three, you know, in

1437
01:39:23,920 --> 01:39:28,199
the Mid East War nineteen eighty three with uh, you know,

1438
01:39:28,279 --> 01:39:33,199
able Archer Reforger and the emergent you know, uh deep

1439
01:39:33,239 --> 01:39:36,439
parodies that you know, gave riseen and drop off some

1440
01:39:37,159 --> 01:39:40,439
project rhon like this was becoming unsustainable and more and

1441
01:39:40,479 --> 01:39:44,359
more dangerous basically every decade, you know, like I, had

1442
01:39:44,359 --> 01:39:47,119
the Cold War endured into the you know, another twenty years,

1443
01:39:47,159 --> 01:39:48,960
there probably would have been a nuclear war by the

1444
01:39:49,039 --> 01:39:52,399
late nineteen nineties. Like I firmly believe that, you know,

1445
01:39:53,720 --> 01:39:59,159
and Gorbachev uh gets kind of a bad rap. I mean,

1446
01:39:59,199 --> 01:40:01,479
he was presiding over a structural crisis that I think

1447
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:05,520
is basically imprecedented in the modern era. Okay, there the

1448
01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:11,279
Soviet Empire constituted like one of six of the planet. Okay,

1449
01:40:11,359 --> 01:40:16,439
like U and every the world was literally divided such

1450
01:40:16,520 --> 01:40:19,239
that you know, half the world was essentially you know,

1451
01:40:19,279 --> 01:40:22,159
the Soviet system was insinuated into it through kind of

1452
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:25,640
I mean, I mean interdependence. And when you're talking about

1453
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:28,239
you know, marginist letter, This planned economy is different than

1454
01:40:28,279 --> 01:40:31,119
you know, globalism. We know it. But you know, about

1455
01:40:31,119 --> 01:40:34,439
half the planet was reliant in some way, even if

1456
01:40:34,479 --> 01:40:37,239
it was just you know, occasional brain deliveries, you know,

1457
01:40:37,359 --> 01:40:41,359
or uh or strictly you know, military hardware to wage

1458
01:40:41,399 --> 01:40:47,680
you know, some Simon gooing, you know, Simon gooing, uh,

1459
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:50,960
localized conflict you know what about about half the about

1460
01:40:50,960 --> 01:40:53,439
half the planet was reliant on the Soviet Union, just

1461
01:40:53,479 --> 01:40:56,039
as you know the competing blogs relying on the United

1462
01:40:56,039 --> 01:41:01,000
States and Europe. I mean, this was i in the

1463
01:41:01,119 --> 01:41:04,279
in the preceding five dred years. There's nothing comparable in

1464
01:41:04,319 --> 01:41:09,159
that except uh, you know, the except that the fall

1465
01:41:09,199 --> 01:41:12,760
of the Western Roman Empire. And even that wasn't like

1466
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:15,319
it's punctuated. I mean, the Soviet Union fell apart like

1467
01:41:15,399 --> 01:41:17,359
in months, you know, I mean, and that the fact

1468
01:41:17,359 --> 01:41:20,319
that there wasn't there was violence. People have forgotten that now,

1469
01:41:20,359 --> 01:41:22,399
but I mean, you know, the actually learned guy, but

1470
01:41:22,479 --> 01:41:25,840
the you know, they're and you got to look at uh,

1471
01:41:26,159 --> 01:41:28,920
you know, you got to look at stuff. Uh, you know,

1472
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:31,159
not just you know, in like chess Fan and Dakistan,

1473
01:41:31,239 --> 01:41:33,920
but also like you know, the bulk At wars as

1474
01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:37,279
direct I mean remote as they were in relative terms

1475
01:41:37,640 --> 01:41:39,359
from the Soviet Union. I mean you got to look

1476
01:41:39,359 --> 01:41:42,920
at those things as as approximately caused you know, by

1477
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:47,079
the the punctuated shock the Soviet collapse. But point being

1478
01:41:47,119 --> 01:41:52,359
that it, uh, this was getting the conflict diad was getting,

1479
01:41:52,520 --> 01:41:55,479
it was getting, it was getting impossible to control. And

1480
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:59,039
garbaschewv realized that the sovietnion needed a way out of

1481
01:41:59,079 --> 01:42:04,840
the Cold War. Okay, and and drop off because they

1482
01:42:04,960 --> 01:42:08,880
drop off was the consummate realist. Uh, and drop off

1483
01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:11,880
realize you know, what has to contemplate is the way

1484
01:42:11,880 --> 01:42:14,319
out of the Cold War to you know, wage a

1485
01:42:14,359 --> 01:42:17,960
preemptive nuclear war against the United States. And I mean obviously,

1486
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:19,840
I mean America was thinking that too, you know, and

1487
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:22,760
vice versa. You know, is this the way? Is this

1488
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:25,479
the way out of the Cold War? But I mean

1489
01:42:25,560 --> 01:42:30,840
to say that, to say that this was dangerous, uh branksmanship,

1490
01:42:31,920 --> 01:42:34,000
it doesn't even scratch the service. It's been ridiculous these

1491
01:42:34,079 --> 01:42:36,159
days and people like, you know, this is the world

1492
01:42:36,199 --> 01:42:37,960
you created, This is like this is the most dangerous

1493
01:42:38,039 --> 01:42:40,239
time ever in world history. It's like, the fuck is

1494
01:42:40,279 --> 01:42:44,000
the matter with you? I mean, it's it's literally insane

1495
01:42:44,239 --> 01:42:47,319
that people think that way. You know, like the like

1496
01:42:47,359 --> 01:42:51,039
the single issue basically in every presidential election for forty

1497
01:42:51,119 --> 01:42:55,439
years was, you know, do we have a survival nuclear deterrent?

1498
01:42:57,079 --> 01:42:58,520
You know? And is the man of the old love

1499
01:42:58,600 --> 01:43:01,680
is gonna keep us alive? You know, because there's there's

1500
01:43:01,720 --> 01:43:04,560
like a very real possibility that you know, we might

1501
01:43:04,600 --> 01:43:07,079
become to make it dead when World War three happens,

1502
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:10,479
you know. I mean that's I guess people under like

1503
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:13,359
forty five or so like came and conceptualized that, but

1504
01:43:14,279 --> 01:43:17,119
it's I'm trying. It sounds like a cantankerous old guy.

1505
01:43:17,279 --> 01:43:24,880
But because it made this also, this goes to show

1506
01:43:24,920 --> 01:43:31,840
you how how uh how critical of these these these

1507
01:43:31,880 --> 01:43:36,720
wars in the periphery were in the nineteen eighties and something.

1508
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:38,920
You know, we'll get into this in the next episode,

1509
01:43:40,119 --> 01:43:44,159
but you know, the the uh, the Battle for Central America,

1510
01:43:44,920 --> 01:43:48,239
you know, uh, Nicaragua becoming a prox literally a proxy

1511
01:43:48,239 --> 01:43:51,319
regime of the d d R, the Soviet Union, you know,

1512
01:43:51,439 --> 01:43:56,000
the uh, the the the proxy war in Chile. You know,

1513
01:43:56,039 --> 01:44:00,840
which led to uh, you know, Pinochet removing you know,

1514
01:44:00,880 --> 01:44:04,920
the Soviets client in Alende, you know, the war El Salvador.

1515
01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:07,680
I mean, these the Soviets are trying to rectify the

1516
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:15,119
strategic the strategic imbalance by carving out comunist blocks that

1517
01:44:15,159 --> 01:44:18,039
would have changed everything, you know. I mean, and it's

1518
01:44:18,199 --> 01:44:21,560
the Soviet Union was doing something's right. I mean, like

1519
01:44:21,560 --> 01:44:24,479
I said before, I think from nineteen seventy three until

1520
01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:27,600
about nineteen eighty two, the Soviet Union was winning the

1521
01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:32,520
Cold War in military terms, in political, sociological, technological terms,

1522
01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:36,479
they were losing. And he's been pure military terms. They

1523
01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:39,399
were racking up victory after victory after victory, you know,

1524
01:44:39,479 --> 01:44:43,119
like in Africa, in Latin America, in East Asia, like

1525
01:44:43,479 --> 01:44:48,319
you know, the this is not a good thing. I mean, however,

1526
01:44:48,439 --> 01:44:52,680
you wherever you fell on. I'm talking about, you know,

1527
01:44:52,840 --> 01:44:54,560
people who are saying I'm not talking about crazy is

1528
01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:58,760
like Peter Ronett and like the the kind of the

1529
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:01,560
kind of crazy Karens you know, calling for nuclear disarmament.

1530
01:45:01,640 --> 01:45:05,560
And I'm talking about people actually sensible, whether whether you

1531
01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:09,640
love Reagan or not, or whether you or whether you know,

1532
01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:12,640
we're particularly on board with the kind of cold or enterprise.

1533
01:45:13,359 --> 01:45:16,359
You know, this was not the prosect of the Soviet

1534
01:45:16,439 --> 01:45:18,000
Union kind of you know, like we talked about in

1535
01:45:18,000 --> 01:45:20,840
previous episodes, you know, kind of becoming like the only

1536
01:45:20,880 --> 01:45:24,119
true superpower because the third world is you know, basically

1537
01:45:24,199 --> 01:45:27,840
signed on with you know, with Marxist Leninism. So America

1538
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:30,479
is just kind of like it's kind of like fortress

1539
01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:35,880
scaring state amidst the hostile world of of of of

1540
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:41,039
tinpot dictators and kind of crazy uh shaku vira types

1541
01:45:41,079 --> 01:45:46,159
like that would not have been a good thing. Man.

1542
01:45:47,920 --> 01:45:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is NATO today? I mean what I mean,

1543
01:45:55,640 --> 01:45:58,399
it's not NATO, So what the hell is it?

1544
01:45:59,279 --> 01:46:04,560
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's the alibi America invokes for unilateral aggression.

1545
01:46:05,239 --> 01:46:08,920
But I mean there's something even if even if that's

1546
01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:13,520
your notion like NATO, those kinds of alliances are obsolete anyway.

1547
01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:16,600
And it's like I said before, like you know, so

1548
01:46:16,920 --> 01:46:21,560
uh uh America's carrying out terrorist acts against its allies

1549
01:46:21,600 --> 01:46:25,119
in Germany. Like even before that, it's like Turkey is

1550
01:46:25,159 --> 01:46:28,960
a Turkey is the only probably the only like comment

1551
01:46:29,079 --> 01:46:32,399
capable like other like NATO member, and like America's periodically

1552
01:46:32,399 --> 01:46:34,439
at war with them like by proxy. So it's like

1553
01:46:34,439 --> 01:46:37,279
it's America obligated to attack itself because it's like it's

1554
01:46:37,359 --> 01:46:40,159
ally Turkey has been attacked and like incident to the

1555
01:46:40,199 --> 01:46:42,840
NATO charter, it's like an express condition. I mean that's

1556
01:46:42,880 --> 01:46:44,800
some thing that's like goofy. This was made in the

1557
01:46:44,880 --> 01:46:47,680
nineties or like Kissinger said that and then late nineties

1558
01:46:47,720 --> 01:46:50,680
I met because during nineteen ninety nine and to his credit,

1559
01:46:51,079 --> 01:46:53,079
you know, he was one of the few voices it

1560
01:46:53,159 --> 01:46:56,600
really was coming out against Clinton's war on Serbia and

1561
01:46:57,840 --> 01:47:00,479
the kids that are made that pointium back then. He's

1562
01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:04,880
like what like what like so so so like NATO

1563
01:47:05,079 --> 01:47:07,680
is like, uh to provide a nuclear umbrella of defense

1564
01:47:08,119 --> 01:47:11,359
against like you know, the great power of slovan On Melosovich.

1565
01:47:11,479 --> 01:47:13,880
Like it doesn't, I mean it doesn't. Like that's not

1566
01:47:14,359 --> 01:47:16,640
even if even if you needed some kind of like

1567
01:47:17,359 --> 01:47:21,760
it namely uh you know sort of it's sort of

1568
01:47:21,800 --> 01:47:25,800
you know force uh structuring alliance, you know, to allow

1569
01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:29,640
America kind of like deploy to deploy whatever wanted, uh

1570
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:33,319
willy nilly, Like it doesn't make sense to like may

1571
01:47:33,399 --> 01:47:36,399
try and maintain the NATO fiction. Like it just doesn't

1572
01:47:36,399 --> 01:47:38,239
make sense. On his face if you're gonna try and

1573
01:47:38,279 --> 01:47:41,560
do that. I mean, that's why the Shanghai Cooperation Organization

1574
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:45,520
is actually a pretty for looking alliance all kinds of ways,

1575
01:47:45,640 --> 01:47:48,880
you know, and it's it's got a military aspect. It's

1576
01:47:48,880 --> 01:47:51,479
gonna ask an economic independence, you know. It accounts to

1577
01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:55,079
that kind of the fluid nature of the current music landscape.

1578
01:47:55,239 --> 01:47:58,800
Like Russia didn't say, like, well, warsaw packs still exists. Yeah,

1579
01:47:59,000 --> 01:48:01,560
you know, this is warsaw at. You know, I get

1580
01:48:01,600 --> 01:48:05,840
any you know, any uh and any any uh if

1581
01:48:05,880 --> 01:48:08,520
any foreign troops like set foot in Kazakhstan, We're gonna

1582
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:11,800
wage nuclear war on you. Like when that doesn't you know,

1583
01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:14,199
it's like even like a principle of law too. Again,

1584
01:48:14,239 --> 01:48:17,560
aside from the kind of absurdity that in bad faith

1585
01:48:17,600 --> 01:48:20,560
the concerts natal and any contract and the treaty at

1586
01:48:20,600 --> 01:48:23,399
the end of the day is just a permissive contract.

1587
01:48:24,079 --> 01:48:27,239
The express conditions of it have to be rational, you know,

1588
01:48:27,439 --> 01:48:30,840
and they're just not. And it's like, okay, an attack

1589
01:48:30,920 --> 01:48:32,960
on an attack on Hungary as Rita as an attack

1590
01:48:33,039 --> 01:48:36,199
on the United States, like America is obligated to go

1591
01:48:36,199 --> 01:48:38,479
to war with itself because of the attagging Turkey, which

1592
01:48:38,479 --> 01:48:40,920
is its ally like it doesn't you know, I mean

1593
01:48:41,600 --> 01:48:45,119
I'm being I'm being a jig off and deliberately up two,

1594
01:48:45,199 --> 01:48:48,359
so I kind of am. But uh yeah, it doesn't.

1595
01:48:48,600 --> 01:48:51,920
It's it doesn't make any sense. And this part of it, too,

1596
01:48:52,039 --> 01:48:53,960
is just kind of the foolishness of the bureaucrat, Like

1597
01:48:53,960 --> 01:48:57,800
this idea that you know name exists for its own

1598
01:48:57,880 --> 01:48:59,800
sake because it's it's at the point of it is

1599
01:48:59,800 --> 01:49:02,079
to just exist, and like it's just it's just this

1600
01:49:02,239 --> 01:49:05,960
awesome thing for reasons nobody can articulate, you know. Uh,

1601
01:49:06,159 --> 01:49:08,640
it's like it doesn't. It's like, well, for that reason,

1602
01:49:08,720 --> 01:49:15,079
it's like, okay, well this does that mean that like

1603
01:49:15,119 --> 01:49:17,960
the America should abide like the express conditions like the Yelta,

1604
01:49:18,479 --> 01:49:20,640
because like that's how America and the Soviet Union won

1605
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:24,359
World War Two? Like, uh, I mean, should should Austria

1606
01:49:24,399 --> 01:49:27,600
started invoking like cont trees, you know, uh, Entine doing

1607
01:49:27,640 --> 01:49:30,680
the Habsburg Empire Like I don't. It doesn't make any sense,

1608
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:35,760
but it's a clumsy way of preserving the fiction that

1609
01:49:35,800 --> 01:49:37,840
this this is that this is some kind of like

1610
01:49:38,079 --> 01:49:41,119
you know that that this is some sort of like

1611
01:49:41,159 --> 01:49:46,119
common defense. Uh, architecture and not just you know, unilateral aggression.

1612
01:49:48,239 --> 01:49:51,800
That's I mean, that's that's you know, the short answer.

1613
01:49:52,800 --> 01:49:56,119
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you got to get at Yeah, this is

1614
01:49:56,119 --> 01:49:58,319
really good. I know you got to get out of town.

1615
01:49:58,439 --> 01:50:03,159
Speaker 1: So do some plugs and uh yeah.

1616
01:50:02,039 --> 01:50:04,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, Pete. You can currently find me on

1617
01:50:04,960 --> 01:50:10,600
burb app uh Twitter that is at real Underscore number

1618
01:50:10,640 --> 01:50:13,520
seven h m as seven seven seven. You find me

1619
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:21,039
on sub stack uh at real Thomas seven seven seven

1620
01:50:21,119 --> 01:50:24,920
dot subsack dot com. Check out the chat on there

1621
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:29,199
because I'm active there. I'm back on t gram. Uh

1622
01:50:29,359 --> 01:50:31,800
just search out my name and you'll find the channel

1623
01:50:34,079 --> 01:50:39,319
at Uh. Yeah, well I got when I I'm going

1624
01:50:39,319 --> 01:50:43,720
out of town the next few days. I get back

1625
01:50:43,760 --> 01:50:46,319
on Sunday, and then Monday I'm gonna start shooting dedicated

1626
01:50:46,399 --> 01:50:50,479
content for the channel at long last. So that's what

1627
01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:53,279
I'm gonna be working on and that I will drop

1628
01:50:53,319 --> 01:50:57,279
that imminent leap when I get back. But for the

1629
01:50:57,319 --> 01:50:59,640
next two days I'm not gonna be like real active

1630
01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:01,680
content wise. If you got to get a hold of me,

1631
01:51:01,960 --> 01:51:04,760
just like be patient until Sunday. Please, That's all I got.

1632
01:51:05,199 --> 01:51:06,960
Speaker 2: Appreciated, Thomas, Thank you very much.

1633
01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:07,840
Speaker 3: Thank you much.

1634
01:51:09,359 --> 01:51:14,039
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the show. What's

1635
01:51:14,079 --> 01:51:15,319
going on, Thomas, How are you doing?

1636
01:51:16,279 --> 01:51:20,800
Speaker 3: I'm doing well. I'm getting terrorized by Twitter again, I mean,

1637
01:51:20,800 --> 01:51:22,520
after for nothing. I just wanted to like put people

1638
01:51:22,560 --> 01:51:25,359
on notice about that because when it happens like people

1639
01:51:25,359 --> 01:51:27,920
seem to get upset. And I mean I appreciate that.

1640
01:51:28,119 --> 01:51:30,359
I appreciate people like care enough about my content that

1641
01:51:30,359 --> 01:51:32,159
they get upset if they think is going away. But

1642
01:51:33,199 --> 01:51:38,560
what happened. I realized what happened. Periodically I complaints are

1643
01:51:38,600 --> 01:51:43,800
lobbied against my account by the Office of the Protection

1644
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:47,560
of the Constitution in the bundest Republic. I mean it's

1645
01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:49,640
you think they I mean realize that's like a make

1646
01:51:49,680 --> 01:51:56,039
work uh you know uh or William bureaucracy. But you

1647
01:51:56,039 --> 01:51:59,079
think there are any things to do than harass a

1648
01:51:59,199 --> 01:52:02,720
kind of creator in America. But they've done that before.

1649
01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:06,479
Every time they do it, Twitter finds some arbitrary reason

1650
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:08,920
or no reason at all is suspend me or ban me.

1651
01:52:09,399 --> 01:52:12,079
They claim that I'm banned for a week. I mean,

1652
01:52:12,079 --> 01:52:15,159
I'm trying to disengage from Twitter as much as possible anyway,

1653
01:52:15,359 --> 01:52:16,880
you know, But I know a lot of people that's

1654
01:52:16,960 --> 01:52:19,520
kind of still like where they try to find me

1655
01:52:19,560 --> 01:52:23,239
and stuff. But if I'm not back on Twitter in

1656
01:52:23,279 --> 01:52:26,479
a week, I mean just like hit us up on

1657
01:52:27,079 --> 01:52:31,800
substick or on t Gram. And I launched the channel

1658
01:52:31,840 --> 01:52:36,199
promo so that people know that, you know, by April first,

1659
01:52:36,520 --> 01:52:43,079
I'll have uploaded the first episode, you know. And I

1660
01:52:41,760 --> 01:52:48,079
I owe a tremendoustetic gratitude to my guy Rake, who

1661
01:52:49,039 --> 01:52:50,840
you know, he's just incredible with what he can do

1662
01:52:50,920 --> 01:52:54,920
with you know, video editing and things like that. And

1663
01:52:54,960 --> 01:52:58,039
he and I are are gonna are gonna bear down

1664
01:52:58,079 --> 01:53:04,359
on filming next week. So I mean blown if we're

1665
01:53:04,399 --> 01:53:07,119
if if if if we are like permanently kicked off

1666
01:53:07,159 --> 01:53:10,239
bourback again, like it doesn't matter. It's happened like nine times.

1667
01:53:10,399 --> 01:53:14,159
So but that's that's that I just wanted to I

1668
01:53:14,199 --> 01:53:16,159
just I just wanted to like get people put people

1669
01:53:16,199 --> 01:53:17,760
in notice about that.

1670
01:53:17,920 --> 01:53:20,439
Speaker 1: But yeah, well one of these things what we should

1671
01:53:20,479 --> 01:53:24,119
do is we should go over that intro video and

1672
01:53:24,359 --> 01:53:27,000
just have you detail like where every I mean I

1673
01:53:27,039 --> 01:53:29,399
saw some video drone in there, and I saw a

1674
01:53:29,399 --> 01:53:31,039
couple of yeah, I saw a couple of other things

1675
01:53:31,079 --> 01:53:33,680
just to like.

1676
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:35,840
Speaker 3: And yeah, he just asked me, uh yeah, I mean,

1677
01:53:35,840 --> 01:53:37,520
he's like a movie guy too. He's like, I mean

1678
01:53:37,560 --> 01:53:39,560
he's one of us, you know, like not just in

1679
01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:41,840
terms of politics, but you know, like he's like a

1680
01:53:41,840 --> 01:53:44,640
culture guy and like an optics guy, and he's in

1681
01:53:44,680 --> 01:53:46,520
a like style and stuff and movies and that's one

1682
01:53:46,520 --> 01:53:48,720
of the reasons we became like good friends. But he

1683
01:53:48,880 --> 01:53:51,039
basically asked me, like what kind of movies were Like,

1684
01:53:51,159 --> 01:53:52,479
He's like, I know the kind of Shoot, you're into it.

1685
01:53:52,560 --> 01:53:54,359
He's like, give me, like, have it us in your

1686
01:53:54,359 --> 01:53:57,560
favorite movies. It's like I did, and uh, like all

1687
01:53:57,600 --> 01:53:58,840
of them are in there, and there's like a bunch

1688
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:01,600
of other just like crazy stuff. But it's yeah, it's

1689
01:54:01,600 --> 01:54:04,399
really incredible. Man. I'm not I'm not just like I'm

1690
01:54:04,399 --> 01:54:07,319
not just like stroking myself because you know, it's like

1691
01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:12,439
my content. I it's like really freaking cool. But uh yeah,

1692
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:14,520
you know, I'm very very lucky to have him on

1693
01:54:14,560 --> 01:54:16,600
board man. And he'll he'll be in front of the

1694
01:54:16,640 --> 01:54:19,479
camera sometimes too, and like I I think people appreciate

1695
01:54:19,520 --> 01:54:22,640
that because he's, uh he's he's a really funny dude.

1696
01:54:22,680 --> 01:54:25,720
And uh you know, yeah, you'll you'll so you'll you'll

1697
01:54:25,920 --> 01:54:28,000
you people will get to meet him and and kind

1698
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:30,880
of see like what he's about. But yeah, I the

1699
01:54:30,920 --> 01:54:34,880
responsibilit one has been overwhelmingly positive and I really appreciate that,

1700
01:54:35,079 --> 01:54:38,000
and I believe it'll be worth the way, not because

1701
01:54:38,079 --> 01:54:41,560
like I'm so great or anything, but I think I've

1702
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:43,960
got a sense of what people want to see and

1703
01:54:44,039 --> 01:54:47,960
hear about, and I'm really really dedicating kind of like

1704
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:50,560
all my time and energy to you know, providing that

1705
01:54:50,680 --> 01:54:53,680
in equality capacity. So yeah, I think he'll be very

1706
01:54:53,720 --> 01:54:57,319
good man. Well yeah, wiping myself and you.

1707
01:54:57,279 --> 01:54:58,920
Speaker 1: Know, all we have to do is make sure that

1708
01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:03,000
people also subscribe to the Odyssey channel, because I think

1709
01:55:03,039 --> 01:55:05,199
we all know that the YouTube channel is probably.

1710
01:55:04,840 --> 01:55:08,159
Speaker 3: Not gonna I mean it's there's gonna be like copyright

1711
01:55:08,199 --> 01:55:11,199
strikes all fucking day. But also as soonas they figure

1712
01:55:11,199 --> 01:55:13,880
out what I'm doing, I mean they're gonna cancel it.

1713
01:55:14,119 --> 01:55:16,800
But I mean that's fine. I'm basically gonna saturate every

1714
01:55:16,840 --> 01:55:20,079
platform I can. You know, everybody's like you gotta get

1715
01:55:20,119 --> 01:55:21,840
on Cozy. It's like, well, I don't. I don't know

1716
01:55:21,920 --> 01:55:25,000
Nick flent Days. I mean, I like, like at all,

1717
01:55:25,039 --> 01:55:27,640
I've never I've never spoken to the dude, even by

1718
01:55:27,760 --> 01:55:30,680
like text or something. I'm not gonna like presume like

1719
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:34,720
he wants my ship on his freaking platform. I'll ask him,

1720
01:55:34,960 --> 01:55:37,039
you know. I mean, but it's I'm not gonna I'm

1721
01:55:37,039 --> 01:55:39,439
not gonna just like assume like, oh, of course he

1722
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:43,399
wants my ship on his on his you know platform.

1723
01:55:43,439 --> 01:55:45,960
But even if we don't fuck with Cozy, you know,

1724
01:55:46,039 --> 01:55:49,000
there's plenty of other there's plenty of other other platforms

1725
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:51,840
we can utilize that are are friendly or at least neutral.

1726
01:55:51,920 --> 01:55:54,439
It'll be fine. And you can you can upload video

1727
01:55:54,520 --> 01:55:57,199
direct or you can you can shoot directly on substack,

1728
01:55:57,880 --> 01:56:02,399
or you can upload the pretty much unless you're trying

1729
01:56:02,399 --> 01:56:05,560
to upload like an entire freaking movie link thing. I mean,

1730
01:56:05,640 --> 01:56:09,560
it's like I all fails. I mean, i'd yeah, i'd

1731
01:56:09,560 --> 01:56:12,399
be like just you know, uploading my stuff to Odyssey

1732
01:56:12,680 --> 01:56:14,880
and substick. I mean, we're gonna say, I trade a

1733
01:56:14,880 --> 01:56:17,399
lot more than myth but it'll be I I realize

1734
01:56:17,399 --> 01:56:19,479
I'm gonna get gangs from YouTube. The reason I dropped

1735
01:56:19,479 --> 01:56:21,720
it dres so that people can find us and know

1736
01:56:21,800 --> 01:56:23,439
about it. But yeah, all right.

1737
01:56:24,239 --> 01:56:27,520
Speaker 1: I streamed to YouTube yesterday in the middle of the

1738
01:56:27,520 --> 01:56:29,680
afternoon and then like as soon as it ended. I

1739
01:56:29,680 --> 01:56:33,560
immediately deleted the video because I mean I just knew

1740
01:56:33,560 --> 01:56:35,359
what some of the stuff, some of the stuff that

1741
01:56:35,399 --> 01:56:37,119
we said in it was just like it was, It's

1742
01:56:37,119 --> 01:56:38,640
what I've gotten strikes for before.

1743
01:56:38,800 --> 01:56:42,000
Speaker 3: I mean, does this one dude? Uh, I don't want

1744
01:56:42,000 --> 01:56:44,399
to drop his names. I don't want he seems like

1745
01:56:44,399 --> 01:56:47,479
an a political guy and I don't I don't want to.

1746
01:56:47,479 --> 01:56:50,000
I don't want to. Like people are terrorizing him, like uh,

1747
01:56:50,600 --> 01:56:52,840
he's like this he's just kind of like crazy like

1748
01:56:53,079 --> 01:56:56,079
uh like like like like horror and cult movie guy,

1749
01:56:56,520 --> 01:56:59,439
Like he gets strikes constantly over just like like total

1750
01:56:59,479 --> 01:57:02,800
bullshit like literally like it seems like and he's constantly

1751
01:57:02,840 --> 01:57:06,479
apologizing with subs. He's got like twenty dollars subscribers, because

1752
01:57:06,479 --> 01:57:09,880
like it's just caust of getting yanked and it's it's

1753
01:57:10,279 --> 01:57:12,680
you know, uh, I mean for the most dubious a reason.

1754
01:57:12,720 --> 01:57:14,880
It's like my point being, I mean, yeah, there were

1755
01:57:14,920 --> 01:57:18,159
absolutely gonna get terrorized like you are. But that's that

1756
01:57:18,199 --> 01:57:21,840
doesn't matter. The whole point is, you know, like I

1757
01:57:21,880 --> 01:57:25,439
do have a YouTube channel right now that people kind

1758
01:57:25,479 --> 01:57:27,039
of like YouTube's kind of like their first go to

1759
01:57:27,159 --> 01:57:29,800
for stuff. But it'll it'll be fine, man, I mean

1760
01:57:29,800 --> 01:57:33,640
I I built the substick basically with no social media presidents,

1761
01:57:33,680 --> 01:57:35,279
because it seems like I launched it that was like

1762
01:57:35,319 --> 01:57:37,319
the first time got perm band from Twitter. I didn't

1763
01:57:37,319 --> 01:57:39,520
get back on Twitter about nine months, you know, I

1764
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:42,079
didn't have an Instagram. Then like I got on t

1765
01:57:42,279 --> 01:57:44,960
gram you know, after about six months. But it'll, I mean,

1766
01:57:45,000 --> 01:57:47,560
it'll be fine. You know, people people are loyal and

1767
01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:51,119
they follow us, and we've got we got a good

1768
01:57:51,239 --> 01:57:53,720
you know, community of people who know how to you know,

1769
01:57:53,800 --> 01:57:55,039
kind of like remain in contact.

1770
01:57:55,119 --> 01:57:58,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I've started I've started streaming. When I

1771
01:57:58,399 --> 01:58:03,199
do my streams to Odyssey and Rumble and immediately uploads

1772
01:58:03,239 --> 01:58:05,399
a bit shoot, you know, the dark side of the Internet.

1773
01:58:05,880 --> 01:58:08,279
Speaker 3: And yeah, no, exactly exactly.

1774
01:58:08,880 --> 01:58:10,760
Speaker 1: So I don't even know what what do you want

1775
01:58:10,760 --> 01:58:12,199
to talk about today?

1776
01:58:13,399 --> 01:58:19,640
Speaker 3: Today? Last time we covered you know, able Archer and uh,

1777
01:58:19,880 --> 01:58:25,000
you know, the kind of command to control concerns relating

1778
01:58:25,039 --> 01:58:31,840
to the deep parodies emergent post a tent because that

1779
01:58:31,840 --> 01:58:35,239
that that's that that's kind of the key that kind

1780
01:58:35,239 --> 01:58:39,800
of nexus of events and causes, that's kind of the

1781
01:58:39,880 --> 01:58:45,399
key juncture of of of of you know, final Cold

1782
01:58:45,439 --> 01:58:51,000
War tensions that approached true crisis dimensions. But there's a

1783
01:58:51,079 --> 01:58:54,000
context to how and why that happened, and I want

1784
01:58:54,000 --> 01:58:56,560
to get into that today, like what happened to day Tant.

1785
01:58:57,000 --> 01:59:01,079
We're gonna go a little bit backwards, okay, And as

1786
01:59:01,119 --> 01:59:07,399
we mentioned, Able Archer happened in October nineteen eighty three,

1787
01:59:08,000 --> 01:59:14,279
there was immediate precursors to that that dramatically exacerbated tensions

1788
01:59:14,720 --> 01:59:20,279
and really kind of created in you know, in I

1789
01:59:20,359 --> 01:59:23,960
kind of generated a zeitgeist of not war fever, but

1790
01:59:25,399 --> 01:59:28,399
what what was What is esteemed you know, unthinkable only

1791
01:59:28,439 --> 01:59:32,119
a few years before suddenly became very possible again. And

1792
01:59:32,720 --> 01:59:35,279
there was very much an atmosphere of terror. I mean,

1793
01:59:35,319 --> 01:59:37,079
you remember the actually little ole than me. I was

1794
01:59:37,119 --> 01:59:39,880
a little kid, and my mom was singularly terrified in

1795
01:59:39,960 --> 01:59:43,039
nuclear war. Okay, I mean a lot of people were,

1796
01:59:43,079 --> 01:59:47,520
and my mom was like, I don't want to drop

1797
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:50,279
some highly personal weird thing, but my mom was kind

1798
01:59:50,279 --> 01:59:53,439
of like apocalyptic and or thinking quite literally, and this

1799
01:59:53,520 --> 01:59:57,880
didn't help any And obviously my dad was reinsinuated into

1800
01:59:57,880 --> 02:00:02,760
the Cold War, so it was but everybody, I mean,

1801
02:00:02,800 --> 02:00:04,520
it was like everybody in the country was like that,

1802
02:00:04,720 --> 02:00:06,479
I mean, and to some degree or another. You know,

1803
02:00:06,640 --> 02:00:09,479
when I can't emphasize that enough to younger people, and

1804
02:00:09,520 --> 02:00:11,960
even as a little kid, obviously I couldn't. It was

1805
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:13,680
it was a few more years before I could fully

1806
02:00:13,760 --> 02:00:19,039
understand what this was about. But you you fully, even

1807
02:00:19,079 --> 02:00:22,560
as a small boy, I fully grasped that, you know,

1808
02:00:22,680 --> 02:00:27,760
this was monumentally terrifying. Now. Honestly, like if they, if they,

1809
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:30,359
if if i'd been like a you know, a guy

1810
02:00:30,399 --> 02:00:32,960
pushing fifty in nineteen eighty three, I frankly I wouldn't

1811
02:00:32,960 --> 02:00:35,479
really care. I mean, that's not that's not some fucking

1812
02:00:35,680 --> 02:00:37,800
edge of the lord shit like legit. I mean, you

1813
02:00:37,880 --> 02:00:41,000
just like learn like you just like learn to you

1814
02:00:41,079 --> 02:00:44,159
come to terms with things, and you know, the the

1815
02:00:44,319 --> 02:00:47,520
kind of frailial life and things don't seem scary anymore.

1816
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:49,880
But yeah, as like a kid or like a young

1817
02:00:49,920 --> 02:00:53,640
person like it was, it was kind of awful. But

1818
02:00:55,319 --> 02:00:59,479
in any event, let's uh, let's dive into it, but

1819
02:00:59,640 --> 02:01:06,039
proceed did able. Archer by several months was the disruption

1820
02:01:06,119 --> 02:01:09,199
of Korean Airlines flight double O seven. What was KL

1821
02:01:09,279 --> 02:01:14,119
flight OH seven KL flight O seven. It was a

1822
02:01:14,159 --> 02:01:17,880
Korean Airlines flight obviously from New York City, or yeah,

1823
02:01:17,880 --> 02:01:21,119
from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage, which in

1824
02:01:21,159 --> 02:01:25,880
those days, uh was the common flight pattern. You know, Uh,

1825
02:01:26,159 --> 02:01:28,840
the sol South Korea was a key kind of Cold

1826
02:01:28,920 --> 02:01:33,279
War proxy client state. But you know, this is not

1827
02:01:33,359 --> 02:01:35,399
the South Korea of the two thousands, you know, the

1828
02:01:35,800 --> 02:01:37,920
ninth largest economy in the world or something, you know,

1829
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:42,640
other than uh, other than in in in kind of

1830
02:01:42,640 --> 02:01:45,279
political and military terms, the van Korea was kind of

1831
02:01:45,279 --> 02:01:49,640
a backwater. So on these flights to Korea there tended

1832
02:01:49,680 --> 02:01:52,840
to be a lot of a lot of heavy personages

1833
02:01:52,840 --> 02:01:57,880
from the national security establishment, the diplomatic corps, you know,

1834
02:01:58,239 --> 02:02:03,079
these kinds of these kinds of these kinds of you know, communities,

1835
02:02:04,279 --> 02:02:10,319
and and KL double seven was no exception. What befell

1836
02:02:10,600 --> 02:02:15,960
KAL flight O seven, well KL O seven straight into

1837
02:02:16,000 --> 02:02:21,960
Soviet airspace and about the same time we're talking like

1838
02:02:22,000 --> 02:02:25,239
within you know, a couple of hours of a of

1839
02:02:25,279 --> 02:02:30,840
an American aerial reconnaissance mission. During the late Cold War,

1840
02:02:31,079 --> 02:02:35,600
America was constantly spoofing Soviet early warning or buzzing it,

1841
02:02:35,800 --> 02:02:37,800
you know, to see kind of what would cause it

1842
02:02:37,840 --> 02:02:41,119
to light up proverbially and to kind of gauge what

1843
02:02:41,399 --> 02:02:45,199
their uh, you know, what their what their protocol was,

1844
02:02:45,600 --> 02:02:48,319
you know, the literally literally the order of operations, you know,

1845
02:02:48,399 --> 02:02:55,000
when when hostile aircraft reached their airspace, possibly incident to

1846
02:02:55,039 --> 02:03:02,039
a nuclear attack. And unfortunately for the passengers and crew

1847
02:03:02,079 --> 02:03:07,239
of kl O seven, a Boeing seven forty seven, even

1848
02:03:07,399 --> 02:03:14,840
at visual range, looks almost identical to an a wax aircraft. Okay,

1849
02:03:15,000 --> 02:03:22,520
And in those days still for certain UH deployment of

1850
02:03:22,560 --> 02:03:29,479
certain weapons platforms, you would advance deployee a UH a

1851
02:03:33,199 --> 02:03:35,359
what's called a masson M M A S I N

1852
02:03:35,439 --> 02:03:39,720
T aircraft in order to acquire targets in order to discern,

1853
02:03:41,039 --> 02:03:44,680
you know, what air defenses were present, as well as

1854
02:03:44,720 --> 02:03:48,920
to interpret, detect and interpret, you know, any electronic signaling

1855
02:03:49,239 --> 02:03:53,199
which could then be you know, deciphered or interpreted to

1856
02:03:53,279 --> 02:03:57,279
paint a picture of what the state of enemy command

1857
02:03:57,279 --> 02:04:02,239
and control was within the target area, you know, theater wide.

1858
02:04:03,279 --> 02:04:05,920
And this was also a particular concern because, as we

1859
02:04:06,039 --> 02:04:12,640
discussed in the last episode, American UH nuclear war planning

1860
02:04:12,920 --> 02:04:19,000
by nineteen eighty two eighty three essentially involved forcing warsaw

1861
02:04:19,079 --> 02:04:21,439
pack to fight a two front nuclear war, if we

1862
02:04:21,479 --> 02:04:24,920
could even think of nuclear com band is having fronts

1863
02:04:25,840 --> 02:04:31,920
assaulting the Soviet Union hard in the Pacific, knocking out

1864
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:36,800
their commanding control in Central Asia, you know, and and

1865
02:04:36,840 --> 02:04:43,039
then saturating them U with you know, with with with

1866
02:04:43,119 --> 02:04:47,239
heavy bombers, IS and and and naval based weapons platforms

1867
02:04:47,279 --> 02:04:53,000
would potentially, you know, uh, it would potentially accomplish the

1868
02:04:53,039 --> 02:04:55,960
splendid first strike in a BOT from the Blue scenario

1869
02:04:57,199 --> 02:05:01,119
or in a UH in a general Wars Mario, you know,

1870
02:05:01,159 --> 02:05:03,000
that would be that would be the way America would

1871
02:05:03,079 --> 02:05:09,640
escalate anyway. So this had all the telltale signs of

1872
02:05:10,239 --> 02:05:15,520
something potentially very very dangerous in the eyes of you know,

1873
02:05:16,640 --> 02:05:24,199
the uh, the Soviet Union, and there are people uh

1874
02:05:24,399 --> 02:05:33,840
interpreting uh, the breaches of their airspace. So the flight

1875
02:05:33,960 --> 02:05:38,079
was intercepted by a Sukhoi fifteen interceptor. UH, it was destroyed,

1876
02:05:38,359 --> 02:05:45,239
all all everybody died. Of course, this was a huge

1877
02:05:45,279 --> 02:05:50,199
international incident. Okay, it was almost comparable to nine to eleven,

1878
02:05:52,159 --> 02:05:54,960
not in terms of the attrition and you know, the

1879
02:05:55,319 --> 02:05:59,800
lives lost, but it was incredibly shocking to people on

1880
02:06:00,079 --> 02:06:04,600
board the aircraft. Was UH, Larry McDonald, the US Congressman

1881
02:06:04,920 --> 02:06:08,399
who also was the chairman of the John Birch Society,

1882
02:06:08,840 --> 02:06:10,319
and UH one.

1883
02:06:10,159 --> 02:06:15,399
Speaker 2: Of he was Ron Paul's like mentor in Congress.

1884
02:06:15,039 --> 02:06:18,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, and confidant, and he was the last true Southern.

1885
02:06:18,079 --> 02:06:21,199
He was the last true Dixiecrat. McDonald was viewed as

1886
02:06:21,880 --> 02:06:24,439
you know, these like Mother Jones types who he was.

1887
02:06:24,479 --> 02:06:26,960
He was like the man they love to hate and uh,

1888
02:06:27,159 --> 02:06:33,000
these these uh Conservative Caucus types. He was kind of

1889
02:06:33,039 --> 02:06:38,880
like their their their knight in shining armor and you know, knockout, knockdown,

1890
02:06:38,960 --> 02:06:42,399
drag out, you know, congressional battles. But he was he

1891
02:06:42,439 --> 02:06:44,800
was He was a Democrat. He ran as a Democrat

1892
02:06:44,840 --> 02:06:46,479
for the you know, for the entirety of his career,

1893
02:06:46,520 --> 02:06:49,159
and he was really the last true like right wing Democrat.

1894
02:06:49,239 --> 02:06:51,800
But he you know again, not only was he a Bircher,

1895
02:06:51,800 --> 02:06:53,760
but he was you know, chairman of the Birch Society

1896
02:06:54,039 --> 02:06:56,119
and he'd only been nominated for that position a few

1897
02:06:56,119 --> 02:07:02,640
months before he died. He uh, you know again, he

1898
02:07:02,840 --> 02:07:05,680
was one of the founders of the Western Goals Institute, uh,

1899
02:07:06,239 --> 02:07:10,560
which the the British Conservative Monday Club was very much

1900
02:07:10,560 --> 02:07:13,680
affiliated with them, as was the World Anti Communist League.

1901
02:07:14,520 --> 02:07:16,279
You know, people who know the history of these Cold

1902
02:07:16,279 --> 02:07:20,880
War packs of the right, well these will be familiar

1903
02:07:21,520 --> 02:07:28,520
organizational names. But you know, uh, it's a Jesse Helms

1904
02:07:28,520 --> 02:07:30,880
initially was supposed to be on that flight. I mean

1905
02:07:30,880 --> 02:07:33,479
this was a big deal, okay. I mean not just

1906
02:07:33,520 --> 02:07:36,159
because you know, you had these public you had McDonald

1907
02:07:36,199 --> 02:07:38,880
and you had some other person Jess who weren't elected officials.

1908
02:07:38,920 --> 02:07:41,640
But you know, we're very much insinuated in the in

1909
02:07:41,680 --> 02:07:45,199
the BELWI policy corridors. But uh, you know it was there.

1910
02:07:45,279 --> 02:07:47,560
There was something almost kind of like cinematic about it

1911
02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:49,560
in all the worst ways. You know, here's this guy's

1912
02:07:49,560 --> 02:07:52,039
like a lifelong night communist. You know, he's been saying

1913
02:07:52,039 --> 02:07:55,600
his entire professional life, the Soviet Union is dangerous. It

1914
02:07:55,640 --> 02:07:59,680
only understands force the seeing currency. It can you know,

1915
02:08:00,000 --> 02:08:03,119
deploy in order to assert it's it's it's it's vision

1916
02:08:03,159 --> 02:08:08,760
of of ah, you know, of of of of political

1917
02:08:08,840 --> 02:08:11,039
order around of the world, and lo and beholding. How

1918
02:08:11,079 --> 02:08:13,640
does he die? You know, he he dies with you know,

1919
02:08:14,439 --> 02:08:17,640
dozens of other people on this on the civilian airliner.

1920
02:08:17,680 --> 02:08:21,039
That yeah, I think there are two hundred and sixty

1921
02:08:21,119 --> 02:08:23,239
nine people, you know, he dies with like, you know,

1922
02:08:23,359 --> 02:08:26,079
hundreds of other people on this seven forty seven. You know,

1923
02:08:26,119 --> 02:08:29,319
that's un ceremonials blown out of the sky by you know,

1924
02:08:29,479 --> 02:08:35,800
Soviet warbird. It. Uh it really really really upset people,

1925
02:08:35,880 --> 02:08:40,960
and uh, the Soviets, in typical fashion, you know, went

1926
02:08:41,039 --> 02:08:43,920
into kind of you know what, went into kind of

1927
02:08:43,960 --> 02:08:48,279
garrison mode. Uh, I started claiming that first they claim

1928
02:08:48,319 --> 02:08:50,520
that this didn't happen at all, you know. Then they

1929
02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:53,319
claimed that it was a deliberate provocation and the United

1930
02:08:53,359 --> 02:08:56,279
States wanted this to happen, you know, so that you know,

1931
02:08:56,399 --> 02:08:59,000
they could so that they could uh, you know, provoke

1932
02:08:59,039 --> 02:09:02,159
a war. And then that kind of rhetoric itself, I

1933
02:09:02,159 --> 02:09:05,239
mean that that was grossly irresponsible. I mean it, this

1934
02:09:05,359 --> 02:09:11,520
is very very bad the uh in the United States.

1935
02:09:11,560 --> 02:09:14,319
In turn, Reagan's people said that the Soviet Union was

1936
02:09:14,319 --> 02:09:18,479
obstructing search and rescue operations, which they probably were, you know,

1937
02:09:18,760 --> 02:09:23,239
I mean, it got it got very very ugly. And

1938
02:09:23,439 --> 02:09:32,159
uh this was uh, this was a couple months prior.

1939
02:09:34,520 --> 02:09:40,119
There had been a Reagan's uh, evil Evil Empire speech

1940
02:09:42,399 --> 02:09:48,079
March eighth, nineteen eighty three, just almost exactly forty years ago,

1941
02:09:48,239 --> 02:09:52,119
as of a couple of days ago. And I don't

1942
02:09:52,159 --> 02:09:54,239
know if people it's it was not a long speech,

1943
02:09:54,840 --> 02:09:58,039
and it hit really really hard. You can find it

1944
02:09:58,079 --> 02:10:00,279
obviously on YouTube or at least a used to be

1945
02:10:00,279 --> 02:10:01,600
able to do. I don't know if I would assume

1946
02:10:01,600 --> 02:10:06,680
it's still there, but you know, in some there was.

1947
02:10:06,880 --> 02:10:08,880
There was some of the normal, you know, kind of

1948
02:10:08,920 --> 02:10:13,000
State of the Union type policy stuff, but the core

1949
02:10:13,119 --> 02:10:19,199
of it was, you know, Reagan essentially stealing people for

1950
02:10:19,279 --> 02:10:23,800
the possibility of nuclear war. And I I know that,

1951
02:10:24,239 --> 02:10:26,760
you know, for at the time and then for decades subsequent.

1952
02:10:27,079 --> 02:10:31,880
It's been kind of a favorite of people on the left.

1953
02:10:33,359 --> 02:10:36,000
Mind you, I'm not some great Reagan apologist, because I

1954
02:10:36,039 --> 02:10:40,039
think people know, but it's because I got to say

1955
02:10:40,079 --> 02:10:41,920
that this was, in fact a great speech and it

1956
02:10:41,960 --> 02:10:45,640
wasn't corny. You're misplaced. And I mean people people always

1957
02:10:45,800 --> 02:10:47,920
accusing Reagan of being this kind of moron with his

1958
02:10:48,000 --> 02:10:50,039
head in the clouds, who was always invoking stuff like

1959
02:10:50,079 --> 02:10:52,279
Star Wars, like you know, it's why they that's where

1960
02:10:52,279 --> 02:10:54,800
they kind of it was. Ted Kennedy point the actual

1961
02:10:54,840 --> 02:11:00,560
phrase star Wars described Messdi, which itself is moronic, but

1962
02:11:03,359 --> 02:11:06,520
calling the Soviet Union the evil Empire wasn't just a

1963
02:11:06,600 --> 02:11:11,279
corny floating signifier. The actual relevant text is what Reagan said,

1964
02:11:11,640 --> 02:11:15,039
and I quote, let us pray for the salvation of

1965
02:11:15,079 --> 02:11:18,199
all those who live in that totalitarian darkness. Pray they

1966
02:11:18,239 --> 02:11:20,800
will cross over the joy of knowing God. But until

1967
02:11:20,840 --> 02:11:23,199
they do, let us be aware that well they preach

1968
02:11:23,239 --> 02:11:27,159
the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man,

1969
02:11:27,319 --> 02:11:29,960
and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth.

1970
02:11:30,279 --> 02:11:32,760
They're the folks of evil in the modern world. So

1971
02:11:32,800 --> 02:11:35,960
in your discussions of nuclear freeze proposals, I urge you

1972
02:11:36,039 --> 02:11:39,199
to beware the temptation of pride, the temptation of blankly

1973
02:11:39,239 --> 02:11:41,439
declaring itself above it all, and label both sides of

1974
02:11:41,479 --> 02:11:44,119
equally at fault. To ignore the facts of history and

1975
02:11:44,159 --> 02:11:47,079
the aggressive impulses of an evil empire, to simply call

1976
02:11:47,119 --> 02:11:50,640
the arms race a giant misunderstanding, thereby remove yourself from

1977
02:11:50,640 --> 02:11:53,039
the struggle between right and wrong and good and evil.

1978
02:11:54,199 --> 02:11:58,119
That sounds like a worst speech. Okay, I'm not saying

1979
02:11:58,159 --> 02:12:00,159
that was misplaced. I think that was entirely a prop

1980
02:12:00,199 --> 02:12:02,239
for you. Within the boundary rationality of the Cold War,

1981
02:12:03,439 --> 02:12:06,520
a very very strong statement had to be made, and

1982
02:12:06,680 --> 02:12:10,680
drop Off took that to mean that Reagan is planning

1983
02:12:10,680 --> 02:12:16,640
to sue for war, and I it's it's it's understandable

1984
02:12:16,680 --> 02:12:22,319
in context why he would think that. Okay. And plus

1985
02:12:22,319 --> 02:12:24,760
I think this is a damn good speech. Okay, that's

1986
02:12:24,760 --> 02:12:27,119
that's not folk. That's not that kind of cringe soaring

1987
02:12:27,239 --> 02:12:31,239
language that these uh, these kind of these these belwey

1988
02:12:31,319 --> 02:12:34,279
types are are prone to invoke these days. I mean,

1989
02:12:34,319 --> 02:12:36,119
it was it didn't it didn't seem a hoky at

1990
02:12:36,119 --> 02:12:41,880
the time, you know, And and it was a it

1991
02:12:41,920 --> 02:12:46,079
was there. There was genuine there's a genuine strategic paradigm

1992
02:12:46,079 --> 02:12:50,479
shift underway that was profoundly destabilizing. Okay, I mean I

1993
02:12:50,479 --> 02:12:53,960
I I I said, frankly, the Evil Empire speech is

1994
02:12:54,000 --> 02:12:56,680
better than these speech Kennedy ever made. Okay, just an

1995
02:12:56,680 --> 02:12:59,760
objective terms. And again I'm not any kind of I'm

1996
02:12:59,760 --> 02:13:02,760
not kind of Reagan lover or something, but that that

1997
02:13:02,880 --> 02:13:05,520
can't be denied. It's kind of incredible to me. That.

1998
02:13:05,840 --> 02:13:08,439
But the other thing, the biggest like middling speeches by

1999
02:13:08,479 --> 02:13:11,479
like Churchill, we're just kind of drunk and like mumbling about,

2000
02:13:11,600 --> 02:13:14,600
you know, like we will never surrender, you know, or

2001
02:13:14,720 --> 02:13:17,840
like Martin Luther King with this kind of just these

2002
02:13:17,920 --> 02:13:21,319
kind of like nonsense platitudes, you know, people hold this out,

2003
02:13:21,439 --> 02:13:24,479
is like just this kind of an incredible example of

2004
02:13:24,479 --> 02:13:30,279
of of of of modern oratory. It's like, really, man,

2005
02:13:30,399 --> 02:13:35,319
like the Evil Empire speech is kind of is is peak, Okay,

2006
02:13:35,359 --> 02:13:40,159
I mean not just going to the not not not

2007
02:13:40,239 --> 02:13:43,520
just not just going to the you know, for fun

2008
02:13:43,600 --> 02:13:45,760
of the other language, but the context in which was

2009
02:13:45,800 --> 02:13:48,720
delivered at least I think so, Like I said, I'm

2010
02:13:48,720 --> 02:13:52,199
sure people just claim that that's you know, that's some

2011
02:13:53,479 --> 02:13:55,359
you know, love for Reagan for something.

2012
02:13:55,399 --> 02:13:59,760
Speaker 1: But again, is it generally accepted that Anthony Dollan wrote it?

2013
02:14:00,880 --> 02:14:04,680
Speaker 3: I believe so. I mean that's Reagan was not. Reagan

2014
02:14:04,720 --> 02:14:07,359
could shoot from the hip and speak very well. I mean,

2015
02:14:07,359 --> 02:14:09,880
that's why he was, you know, dubbed the great communicator.

2016
02:14:10,399 --> 02:14:12,680
But Reagan did not write a lot of his own,

2017
02:14:13,800 --> 02:14:21,680
you know, long form speeches. I believe, Uh, I can't.

2018
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:24,000
Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that

2019
02:14:24,079 --> 02:14:28,039
the seventies, the seventy six Republican Convention, that was Reagan's

2020
02:14:28,039 --> 02:14:31,000
other really famous speech. I believe he wrote most of that,

2021
02:14:33,399 --> 02:14:37,359
and that was remarkable because generally Reagan didn't. That's why

2022
02:14:37,359 --> 02:14:40,399
you know, the bit Berg speech. Buchanan wrote that and

2023
02:14:40,439 --> 02:14:42,319
that wasn't just Nancy Reagan. He was in as an

2024
02:14:42,359 --> 02:14:45,119
excuse to throw patter under the bus. But you can't

2025
02:14:45,199 --> 02:14:48,239
actually wrote that speech like it. And that was you know,

2026
02:14:49,439 --> 02:14:52,199
in Reagan's era. It wasn't yet at the point where

2027
02:14:52,520 --> 02:14:54,119
you know, just it was part of the chorus for

2028
02:14:54,359 --> 02:14:58,680
you know, presidents and candidates for the White House, you know,

2029
02:14:59,079 --> 02:15:02,199
just to rely on you know, people to write their

2030
02:15:02,840 --> 02:15:06,199
their copy for them. I mean some people did, some

2031
02:15:06,239 --> 02:15:09,640
people didn't, but yeah, Reagan generally didn't.

2032
02:15:10,479 --> 02:15:15,279
Speaker 1: I remember the uh, the Bittburg controversy is like it

2033
02:15:15,319 --> 02:15:15,920
was yesterday.

2034
02:15:17,119 --> 02:15:19,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's well, we'll get into that on

2035
02:15:19,239 --> 02:15:21,640
the next episode, as as we kind of approached Pera

2036
02:15:21,680 --> 02:15:24,600
Streika and stuff. But that that was entirely appropriate and

2037
02:15:24,640 --> 02:15:26,920
how anyway, I mean, first of all, I I I

2038
02:15:27,239 --> 02:15:31,000
got nothing but esteem for obviously, I mean, those guys

2039
02:15:31,000 --> 02:15:35,000
were heroes. But even if you completely reject that take,

2040
02:15:35,840 --> 02:15:38,479
it was entirely appropriate what Reagan said. He said these

2041
02:15:38,520 --> 02:15:40,840
he said, these men were victims of the war too,

2042
02:15:41,399 --> 02:15:42,960
and I don't I don't see how they could be

2043
02:15:42,960 --> 02:15:47,880
construed as controversial and Helmet Cole essentially insisted that you know,

2044
02:15:48,079 --> 02:15:51,199
the the war that the German War, that'd be acknowledged.

2045
02:15:52,079 --> 02:15:54,520
Like if anything, if if people wanted to throw mud

2046
02:15:54,520 --> 02:15:58,560
on somebody for reported, you know, fascist symbo these like

2047
02:15:58,680 --> 02:16:00,960
Cole would kind of be the guy to hang that on.

2048
02:16:01,039 --> 02:16:03,439
But I think it was among gonna think it was

2049
02:16:03,720 --> 02:16:07,239
an excuse to sort of uh excize you can, from

2050
02:16:07,319 --> 02:16:12,199
the Reagan from Reagan's in her circle. Nancy real was

2051
02:16:12,239 --> 02:16:14,479
in some ways like Priscilla was the Elvis, you know,

2052
02:16:14,520 --> 02:16:16,520
and and the way she just decided that she like

2053
02:16:16,840 --> 02:16:18,800
hated some guy or hated some guy's wife who was

2054
02:16:18,800 --> 02:16:20,640
part of the Memphis mathias. So we had to go

2055
02:16:21,279 --> 02:16:23,640
like Nancy did that too. Like I'm not that there's

2056
02:16:23,640 --> 02:16:25,479
a certain kind of woman who does that. I'm not

2057
02:16:25,479 --> 02:16:28,600
trying to trash females at all, but I mean everybody

2058
02:16:28,640 --> 02:16:32,200
knows that's true. And Nancy Reagan was a very strange bird,

2059
02:16:32,639 --> 02:16:35,159
like she really was in all kinds of ways. I'm

2060
02:16:35,200 --> 02:16:39,680
frankly surprised. It's it's i mean, that's a whole other question.

2061
02:16:39,719 --> 02:16:42,799
It's it's strange that she was. I mean, she was

2062
02:16:42,799 --> 02:16:45,680
Reagan's second wife, you know, once he picked her up,

2063
02:16:45,799 --> 02:16:48,760
well after he had kind of decided he wanted a

2064
02:16:48,799 --> 02:16:51,639
political career of some sort. It's very strange, but that

2065
02:16:51,639 --> 02:16:54,559
that's my read on it. And yeah, obviously, you know,

2066
02:16:54,600 --> 02:16:57,639
like we talked about, it wasn't nearly as extreme because

2067
02:16:58,120 --> 02:17:01,719
Reagan truly did have a pretty remarkable mandate for a

2068
02:17:01,760 --> 02:17:05,639
post uh for a post war president. But there was

2069
02:17:05,920 --> 02:17:08,680
there wasn't there was a kind of Reagan derangement syndrome.

2070
02:17:08,719 --> 02:17:11,959
You remember that, Like, yeah, if it rains on Sunday,

2071
02:17:12,000 --> 02:17:14,639
it's because of Reagan. Like if if your corn flakes

2072
02:17:14,639 --> 02:17:16,799
don't taste good, it's because of Reagan. Like everything that

2073
02:17:16,799 --> 02:17:18,840
happened in the world is like some work by Reagan.

2074
02:17:19,000 --> 02:17:21,399
Like yeah, so that, I mean, that was part of it.

2075
02:17:21,479 --> 02:17:26,200
But but yeah, the regardless, like I said, I mean,

2076
02:17:26,200 --> 02:17:29,600
even even people who you know, were in our cynical

2077
02:17:29,639 --> 02:17:32,680
about the Cold War, even people who don't particularly even

2078
02:17:32,719 --> 02:17:34,159
even people think Rag was just some kind of like

2079
02:17:34,200 --> 02:17:37,920
glorified pitch man. I mean that that that was a

2080
02:17:37,920 --> 02:17:42,200
great speech, and you know, I don't think it was pratuitous,

2081
02:17:42,239 --> 02:17:45,000
but again it did it. It did sound like a

2082
02:17:45,000 --> 02:17:49,639
war speech and and drop off and uh, you know

2083
02:17:49,799 --> 02:17:55,000
ustinof Gromico Trenenko, I mean, all these guys who constituted

2084
02:17:55,040 --> 02:17:56,879
you know, the inner Inner Party. I mean they all,

2085
02:17:56,959 --> 02:17:59,559
they all lived through the war with with the German Reich.

2086
02:17:59,600 --> 02:18:02,639
I mean they to say they were sensitive to these indicators,

2087
02:18:03,559 --> 02:18:06,719
it doesn't even begin to kind of scratch the surface

2088
02:18:06,799 --> 02:18:09,520
of you know, the kind of depth of their fears

2089
02:18:09,639 --> 02:18:15,959
of these things. But it's this is what's important too

2090
02:18:16,040 --> 02:18:21,840
to keep in mind is as to why this this

2091
02:18:22,280 --> 02:18:26,440
you know, nineteen seventy nine to eighty four into eighty

2092
02:18:26,479 --> 02:18:29,799
five was so dangerous, you know, like what happened? You know,

2093
02:18:29,879 --> 02:18:34,680
like what what happened? What happened to Dayton? What killed it? What?

2094
02:18:34,680 --> 02:18:38,120
What constituted Dayton? In brass text terms? In terms of

2095
02:18:38,280 --> 02:18:43,879
policy of uh, you know the East Block and you

2096
02:18:43,920 --> 02:18:47,840
know the West slash NATO And what what kind of

2097
02:18:47,840 --> 02:18:55,000
treaty if not law? Because I mean we we cann't

2098
02:18:55,000 --> 02:18:57,520
really talk about treaties as binding law. It can never

2099
02:18:57,559 --> 02:18:59,920
be anything but permissive. But particularly during the Cold War

2100
02:19:00,079 --> 02:19:02,879
or it was kind of more like a statement of

2101
02:19:03,079 --> 02:19:06,280
good faith than anything. But it did you know, it

2102
02:19:06,319 --> 02:19:12,959
did have it did have moral force. Okay, really what

2103
02:19:13,120 --> 02:19:16,360
kind of constituted Dayton? Where rubber met the road? One

2104
02:19:16,399 --> 02:19:21,639
of its big kind of aims and for a for

2105
02:19:21,680 --> 02:19:23,440
a limited time. We're gonna get into why this was

2106
02:19:23,440 --> 02:19:28,079
problematic as it was constituted. One of its big ambitions

2107
02:19:28,440 --> 02:19:30,600
was to kind of take off the possibility of war

2108
02:19:30,680 --> 02:19:33,920
in Europe, take that off the table. You know, as

2109
02:19:33,959 --> 02:19:38,239
we talked about, there's basically two issues in strategic terms.

2110
02:19:38,719 --> 02:19:41,120
You know, there's obviously America and the Soviet Union could

2111
02:19:41,120 --> 02:19:44,680
come to a real blows in any number of theaters.

2112
02:19:44,760 --> 02:19:48,200
Although the primary diad was Europe, but the Soviet Union

2113
02:19:48,600 --> 02:19:50,319
visa of the Europe I mean that was that was

2114
02:19:50,360 --> 02:19:54,440
an open ended question. I mean, where did Europe stand.

2115
02:19:55,040 --> 02:19:59,079
There's several uh constituent elements in NATO, like where did

2116
02:19:59,079 --> 02:20:01,200
they stand in divisi dually and so far as they

2117
02:20:01,239 --> 02:20:05,559
did have you know, a cognizable, you know, discrete policy

2118
02:20:05,879 --> 02:20:09,440
independent of the NATO structure. You know, what was their

2119
02:20:09,440 --> 02:20:14,520
relationship to the Soviet Union in pure geostrategic terms. I mean,

2120
02:20:14,520 --> 02:20:19,239
this had this this had tremendous significance politically, not just

2121
02:20:19,280 --> 02:20:22,399
for you know, global stability or and the potential for

2122
02:20:22,399 --> 02:20:29,360
a crisis diads, but but also it was understood by everybody.

2123
02:20:29,559 --> 02:20:34,319
I mean, even a conventional war in Europe with you know,

2124
02:20:34,440 --> 02:20:38,239
modern combined arms it would have been utterly devastating, you know.

2125
02:20:38,360 --> 02:20:39,600
I mean that there would have been the end of

2126
02:20:39,600 --> 02:20:42,680
Europe quite literally, you know, it would not have survived,

2127
02:20:43,319 --> 02:20:46,920
you know, or if it did, it would it would

2128
02:20:46,920 --> 02:20:52,159
have been some sort of you know, it would not

2129
02:20:52,200 --> 02:20:53,719
have been It would not have been Europe as we

2130
02:20:53,799 --> 02:21:04,120
know it anymore. Okay. This kind of brought quite literally

2131
02:21:04,159 --> 02:21:10,079
every European state, exempting Albania, which is always you know,

2132
02:21:10,920 --> 02:21:14,000
which which was under the which was under the rule

2133
02:21:14,040 --> 02:21:16,399
of inver hawksa you know, and they had all their

2134
02:21:16,399 --> 02:21:19,600
little bunkers everybody knows, like what the hawks of bunkers. Well,

2135
02:21:19,639 --> 02:21:23,520
like Albania was protesting like any anything relating to UH

2136
02:21:23,680 --> 02:21:28,440
de Tante treaty making because they claimed that they supported

2137
02:21:28,440 --> 02:21:31,079
the people's probably in China because they were the true

2138
02:21:31,159 --> 02:21:36,799
like Marxist Leninist vanguard. But other than that, every every

2139
02:21:36,840 --> 02:21:41,120
member state in NATO and the Warsaw Pact plus UH

2140
02:21:41,239 --> 02:21:49,079
Norway plus you know, plus UH Spain, which I don't

2141
02:21:49,120 --> 02:21:51,280
think was a NATO yet because it was seventy three.

2142
02:21:53,079 --> 02:21:55,879
They UH signed on for what came to be called

2143
02:21:55,879 --> 02:21:59,120
the Conference and Security and Cooperation in Europe, which was

2144
02:21:59,120 --> 02:22:04,319
Canadi in ninety seven to ninety seventy five. It was

2145
02:22:04,360 --> 02:22:07,600
held in Helsinki, Finland, the final phase of it, which

2146
02:22:07,639 --> 02:22:10,760
came to be called the Helsinki Accords or the Helsinki Declaration,

2147
02:22:11,239 --> 02:22:14,600
between July thirtieth and August first, nine seventy five. Now,

2148
02:22:14,600 --> 02:22:17,079
this followed two years and negotiations of this kind of

2149
02:22:17,079 --> 02:22:24,680
tortured process. We're in again, uh, thirty five participating states

2150
02:22:28,600 --> 02:22:36,440
plus the United States and Canada. Did I did I

2151
02:22:36,440 --> 02:22:39,799
disconnect from it? It? No, you're good, Okay, I'm sorry.

2152
02:22:40,040 --> 02:22:44,000
For some reason, the freaking you're by my my video

2153
02:22:44,079 --> 02:22:47,479
kicked out? Okay. The Helsinki Declaration it cons dude, the

2154
02:22:47,479 --> 02:22:51,600
thirty five participating states, you know, all the all the

2155
02:22:51,639 --> 02:22:54,319
members states in NATO and Warsaw Pact, you know, plus

2156
02:22:54,399 --> 02:22:59,959
UH plus Sweden or plus Norway plus Spain, the United

2157
02:23:00,079 --> 02:23:06,360
States plus Canada. What it can with this, with this

2158
02:23:06,440 --> 02:23:10,840
declaration came to constitute was it was supposed to be basically,

2159
02:23:11,799 --> 02:23:15,760
you know, a kind of a kind of quasi bill

2160
02:23:15,799 --> 02:23:19,600
of rights that was understood to be, you know, kind

2161
02:23:19,600 --> 02:23:22,239
of like represent the fundamental rights of man de Girey

2162
02:23:22,639 --> 02:23:24,959
on both sides of the Iron curtain. You know. It

2163
02:23:25,000 --> 02:23:29,559
was a sovereigny quality, respect for the rights inherent and

2164
02:23:29,559 --> 02:23:32,120
sovereignty of all you know, constituent states of Natal and

2165
02:23:32,120 --> 02:23:35,040
Warsaw Pact refraining from the threat of use of force

2166
02:23:35,159 --> 02:23:39,479
to advanced policy initiatives other than defensively, which I realized

2167
02:23:39,479 --> 02:23:42,600
that's kind of meaningless and existential terms, but it has

2168
02:23:42,639 --> 02:23:48,040
political currency in these kinds of situations. You know, a

2169
02:23:48,079 --> 02:23:52,680
recognition of the territorial integrity estates as existed. Then you

2170
02:23:52,680 --> 02:23:54,879
know with the you know, the post war boundaries that

2171
02:23:54,879 --> 02:23:58,719
have been drawn, the peaceful settlement of disputes, not intervention

2172
02:23:59,399 --> 02:24:02,719
and hostile terms, and you know, the affairs of the

2173
02:24:02,760 --> 02:24:06,360
constituent states either NATO or worse up packed and a

2174
02:24:06,440 --> 02:24:10,120
basic and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. And

2175
02:24:10,159 --> 02:24:13,200
this was a big one, including freedom of thought, conscience,

2176
02:24:13,399 --> 02:24:21,440
and religion. Okay. Now presidentev made a very big deal

2177
02:24:21,479 --> 02:24:23,840
about this, okay, and this was before he was you

2178
02:24:23,920 --> 02:24:26,840
don't really compromised in terms of his mental faculties. And

2179
02:24:26,879 --> 02:24:31,280
so did Eric Honecker. Okay, because Honaker, especially because he's Jeremy,

2180
02:24:31,280 --> 02:24:34,120
always been struggling for legitimacy. You know, they weren't even

2181
02:24:34,200 --> 02:24:37,280
recognized as as as as a state until the seventies

2182
02:24:37,319 --> 02:24:42,200
by you know, a majority of this planet, but the

2183
02:24:42,280 --> 02:24:45,479
worst up packed or the Iron curtain. Rather the states

2184
02:24:45,479 --> 02:24:47,280
find the Iron curt and the constant with the Soviets

2185
02:24:47,319 --> 02:24:50,760
fear of influence. They were always gonna they were always

2186
02:24:50,760 --> 02:24:55,799
clawing for respectability, which you know, in the Cold War

2187
02:24:55,879 --> 02:25:01,120
context was essential because this really was u a battle

2188
02:25:01,159 --> 02:25:06,079
of zeitgeist and which system and which superpower would become

2189
02:25:06,159 --> 02:25:09,319
the world system. You know, this wasn't just cosmetic or something,

2190
02:25:09,360 --> 02:25:12,280
and it wasn't just you know, it wasn't just these

2191
02:25:12,360 --> 02:25:14,719
kind of career statesmen, you know, wanting a feather in

2192
02:25:14,760 --> 02:25:16,920
their cap, you know, so they could like look at,

2193
02:25:16,959 --> 02:25:19,280
you know, their proverbial trophy case and like Admyer, their

2194
02:25:19,280 --> 02:25:21,559
own you know, great career or whatever. It's had like

2195
02:25:21,639 --> 02:25:26,159
actual impact. That's important to keep in mind, but would

2196
02:25:26,200 --> 02:25:28,799
really kind of opened the door to this. What really

2197
02:25:28,799 --> 02:25:33,920
made this possible, what really made the tame possible, was

2198
02:25:34,879 --> 02:25:41,479
the situation between the two Germanys, and specifically the sendencee

2199
02:25:41,479 --> 02:25:46,319
of Billy Brandt. Who is Billy Brandt. Billy brand was

2200
02:25:46,319 --> 02:25:50,280
this crazy, uh kind of sixty eight or socialist and

2201
02:25:50,319 --> 02:25:52,559
he was middle aged by that epoch you know, he

2202
02:25:52,680 --> 02:25:55,959
was of the war generation, but he'd been the governor.

2203
02:25:56,040 --> 02:25:58,399
He's been the governing mayor of West Berlin, and Berlin

2204
02:25:58,440 --> 02:26:01,239
to this day remains like, you know, an independent polity

2205
02:26:01,399 --> 02:26:05,600
like all the several German states or prefectures are. But

2206
02:26:06,120 --> 02:26:08,920
during the Cold War it had special status or like

2207
02:26:09,040 --> 02:26:10,639
or you know when the inner German boards and tags.

2208
02:26:10,639 --> 02:26:12,799
It had special status, you know, because there was a

2209
02:26:12,920 --> 02:26:18,680
quasi protectorate of of you know, the the of of

2210
02:26:18,680 --> 02:26:23,479
of America, France and the UK. It uh, it was

2211
02:26:23,520 --> 02:26:27,040
situated completely within uh you know, the territory of the

2212
02:26:27,120 --> 02:26:30,159
d d R. So the Marror Westbroo, the governing mayor

2213
02:26:30,159 --> 02:26:35,600
of West Berlin. He had unusual clout. Okay Brand was

2214
02:26:35,600 --> 02:26:37,719
the chairman of the Social Democratic Party from sixty four

2215
02:26:37,719 --> 02:26:43,239
to eighty seven and most significantly and to understand his

2216
02:26:43,399 --> 02:26:46,440
kind of contribution to history as it were accidental or

2217
02:26:46,479 --> 02:26:52,479
not or uh you know, uh literally like accidental or not,

2218
02:26:52,639 --> 02:26:54,440
like you know what he kind of what he kind

2219
02:26:54,440 --> 02:26:57,440
of fumbled into. He was the chance of the Buddhist

2220
02:26:57,440 --> 02:27:01,479
Republic from ninety six ninety seventy five. He was this

2221
02:27:01,559 --> 02:27:04,239
big uh you know, he was this big liberal reformer.

2222
02:27:05,079 --> 02:27:10,600
He he really compromised the bon the buds uh comic capability,

2223
02:27:10,879 --> 02:27:14,799
which was a big deal because the BUN was the

2224
02:27:14,799 --> 02:27:19,079
spear point of NATO in the first decades after the

2225
02:27:19,120 --> 02:27:22,680
Day of Defeat. They really were like a crack military force,

2226
02:27:22,719 --> 02:27:24,760
and they had to be because they're opt Fur was,

2227
02:27:24,920 --> 02:27:28,200
you know, the notional volks Army. This should all be

2228
02:27:28,280 --> 02:27:31,920
very clear. You know. There was a slew of other

2229
02:27:31,959 --> 02:27:36,920
you know, kind of brand Brand's apologists and supporters were

2230
02:27:37,000 --> 02:27:39,360
his point in the fact that you know, the the

2231
02:27:39,440 --> 02:27:41,600
number of Germans made the poverty line, you know, like

2232
02:27:41,639 --> 02:27:43,440
fell from you know, two point nine percent to like,

2233
02:27:43,639 --> 02:27:47,760
you know, something totally marginal. But entrepreneurial activity also dropped

2234
02:27:47,760 --> 02:27:49,159
down to zero, you know, I mean it was a

2235
02:27:49,159 --> 02:27:52,399
typical kind of it was the typical kind of like

2236
02:27:52,719 --> 02:27:56,479
socialist stagnation written large, you know. But but hey, you know,

2237
02:27:56,520 --> 02:27:58,799
the and the cope for for for those that defensive

2238
02:27:58,879 --> 02:28:01,520
things are we got this great education system and now

2239
02:28:01,559 --> 02:28:05,000
nobody's poor anymore, I mean everybody. This is a very

2240
02:28:05,639 --> 02:28:09,399
common uh that this was a common occurrence. You know,

2241
02:28:09,600 --> 02:28:12,600
when when when when social democrats are Greens later on,

2242
02:28:13,319 --> 02:28:16,120
you know, gained majoritary and status and any of these

2243
02:28:16,319 --> 02:28:20,280
you know, any of these West European states. But more importantly,

2244
02:28:20,520 --> 02:28:24,040
Brandt's big thing was ostpolitic. He wanted a true like

2245
02:28:24,120 --> 02:28:28,040
reconciliation with East Germany, Okay, and towards that end, starting

2246
02:28:28,120 --> 02:28:32,000
nineteen sixty seven, herestad was diplomatic relations with Romania, He

2247
02:28:32,120 --> 02:28:35,840
entered into a trade agreement Czechoslovakia. You know, he restored

2248
02:28:35,879 --> 02:28:41,040
formal relations with Yugoslavia. This was set back in August

2249
02:28:41,120 --> 02:28:46,879
sixty eight when you know, with the Fremlins invasion in Czechoslovakia.

2250
02:28:47,760 --> 02:28:52,360
But uh, you know, he condemned brand formally condemned the invasion.

2251
02:28:53,040 --> 02:28:57,520
But uh you know he uh he when he basically

2252
02:28:57,559 --> 02:29:01,440
renegotiated the ruling coalition, you know, the Free Democrats and

2253
02:29:01,559 --> 02:29:05,520
you know who bagged to continued approachment with the worst

2254
02:29:05,600 --> 02:29:07,319
up act and that was that was kind of his

2255
02:29:07,360 --> 02:29:10,200
way of finessing you know, what could have been a

2256
02:29:10,319 --> 02:29:15,159
careruning crisis into a way of staying alive. But uh

2257
02:29:16,920 --> 02:29:19,440
it uh, this reached this kind of zena in sixty

2258
02:29:19,559 --> 02:29:24,520
nine when uh he agreed to meet uh he agreed

2259
02:29:24,559 --> 02:29:29,239
agreed to me with Willie Stuff, who was East German premier,

2260
02:29:29,479 --> 02:29:32,559
who was you know in this kind of byzantine DDR system,

2261
02:29:32,959 --> 02:29:39,239
technically the head of of state contra, you know, the

2262
02:29:39,239 --> 02:29:41,520
the head of government you know, to the who was

2263
02:29:41,559 --> 02:29:44,079
you know, the General Secretary of the se uh D,

2264
02:29:45,159 --> 02:29:47,639
which by then was Honiker, but he he agreed to

2265
02:29:47,680 --> 02:29:51,680
meet with Honiker too, and so he basically in one

2266
02:29:51,719 --> 02:29:56,200
fell stroke, he basically you know, gave the d DR

2267
02:29:56,280 --> 02:30:00,440
the legitimacy that it it had been attempting to apture

2268
02:30:00,639 --> 02:30:09,600
really from inception. And this, uh, understandably, this really really

2269
02:30:10,120 --> 02:30:14,319
outraged you know, not just people who had family behind

2270
02:30:14,319 --> 02:30:19,879
the wall, but also uh, you know, people who had

2271
02:30:20,079 --> 02:30:24,399
real concerns about the fact that the Soviet Union worse

2272
02:30:24,479 --> 02:30:29,799
upack that genuine momentum then in military terms and frankly

2273
02:30:29,840 --> 02:30:32,280
in political terms in the Third World, like we talked about,

2274
02:30:32,319 --> 02:30:35,040
you know, like it appeared that Brandt was was uh

2275
02:30:35,479 --> 02:30:39,200
was selling Europe out UH to the Stalnists in a

2276
02:30:39,280 --> 02:30:43,920
real way, owing either to malice or malice or naivete

2277
02:30:44,000 --> 02:30:48,120
it didn't matter. And this, in my opinion, it was

2278
02:30:48,200 --> 02:30:52,840
kind of the zenith of UH a Warsaw pack power politically,

2279
02:30:53,600 --> 02:30:56,879
because what had always been the way Warsaw Pact wins

2280
02:30:57,000 --> 02:30:59,280
is it demilitarized Germany, you know, I mean this was

2281
02:30:59,280 --> 02:31:01,360
the subject of the aid note as we got into

2282
02:31:01,559 --> 02:31:05,479
many moons ago. This is what the Soviets always wanted, okay,

2283
02:31:05,639 --> 02:31:08,239
and it looked like they were gonna get it, albeit

2284
02:31:08,319 --> 02:31:15,319
in some gradual capacity. But what what brought this down

2285
02:31:15,440 --> 02:31:26,120
is fascinating. Willie Brandt's or Billy Brandt's top aid you know,

2286
02:31:26,239 --> 02:31:30,639
his uh and and the and the and the Social

2287
02:31:30,639 --> 02:31:34,760
Democrat Party like secretary was a guy named Guter Gillom

2288
02:31:35,600 --> 02:31:38,639
okay and uh Gillam was a connected with the hip

2289
02:31:38,719 --> 02:31:41,520
to uh to Billy Brandt. And he was just kind

2290
02:31:41,520 --> 02:31:45,879
of he was just kind of he was this kind

2291
02:31:45,879 --> 02:31:49,639
of shifty looking guy. Frankly, you know, always were dark glasses.

2292
02:31:49,639 --> 02:31:53,360
He was always dressed impeccably, but you know, he truly

2293
02:31:53,440 --> 02:31:56,719
was ubiquitous. Like when Brandt went on vacation, you know,

2294
02:31:56,799 --> 02:31:59,639
Gion like went with Brandt and his family too, Like

2295
02:31:59,639 --> 02:32:04,319
they were close and it was believed that basically Brandt

2296
02:32:04,479 --> 02:32:08,280
was a womanizer, you know, he he liked pussy too much.

2297
02:32:08,680 --> 02:32:12,079
He was at drunk like like Brandy Villy was his

2298
02:32:12,360 --> 02:32:14,959
you know, kind of nickname. You know, friends and foes

2299
02:32:15,000 --> 02:32:19,520
alike called him that he relied on Gillam, you know,

2300
02:32:19,559 --> 02:32:25,479
to kind of like hold it together. Okay, Well, in

2301
02:32:25,600 --> 02:32:30,239
nineteen seventy four and April twenty fourth, Gillom gets arrested.

2302
02:32:30,600 --> 02:32:34,559
Because Gillam was he was a Stasi officer and he

2303
02:32:34,639 --> 02:32:37,520
had been for his whole life. He's quite literally deployed

2304
02:32:38,239 --> 02:32:41,680
to the Bonus Republic to get close to anybody he could,

2305
02:32:42,280 --> 02:32:45,719
and he got close to Billy Brandt and he quite

2306
02:32:45,719 --> 02:32:51,280
literally made Brandt Chancellor. I mean, I think about that,

2307
02:32:51,399 --> 02:32:55,200
like think about what a coup that is. And Guillam

2308
02:32:55,840 --> 02:33:02,639
was able to steal the uh I is only above

2309
02:33:02,719 --> 02:33:06,760
top secret NATO nuclear war plan from the Chancellor's safe

2310
02:33:06,959 --> 02:33:08,840
and he was able to deliver it to East Berlin.

2311
02:33:09,840 --> 02:33:13,360
And UH, from that point forward, it was never clear

2312
02:33:13,559 --> 02:33:16,239
like what the Stasi knew, you know, and like how

2313
02:33:16,280 --> 02:33:19,360
long they had known, you know. And this was this

2314
02:33:19,479 --> 02:33:24,479
Ode DeMarcus Wolf, who was you know, kind of the

2315
02:33:24,639 --> 02:33:27,159
uh it was kind of the genius of the Ministry

2316
02:33:27,200 --> 02:33:34,079
for State Security. He was the he was the he

2317
02:33:34,159 --> 02:33:36,840
was the chief of the Foreign Intelligence Directorate, the main

2318
02:33:36,879 --> 02:33:42,600
director for reconnaissance. And UH, Guillome was his like like

2319
02:33:42,799 --> 02:33:45,440
the mole that became Guillome. This I mean this was

2320
02:33:45,479 --> 02:33:49,360
his this was his operation, you know, from inception to conclusion.

2321
02:33:49,399 --> 02:33:54,879
And uh Wolf made the point that Gillom's arrest and

2322
02:33:54,959 --> 02:34:00,639
exposure this is really kind of what killed uh the

2323
02:34:00,719 --> 02:34:05,520
ambition of a Warsaw Pact and everything they'd accomplished, because

2324
02:34:05,559 --> 02:34:10,159
after that, the Bonis Republic became basically a police state,

2325
02:34:10,680 --> 02:34:14,520
you know, like they a couple of years subsequent the

2326
02:34:14,559 --> 02:34:20,280
bottom Miindhaw faction, you know, the Red Army faction, you know,

2327
02:34:20,399 --> 02:34:23,399
in nineteen seventy seven, Uh, that was the German Autumn

2328
02:34:23,440 --> 02:34:26,799
as it was called. You know, they they kidnapped and

2329
02:34:26,879 --> 02:34:30,399
murdered a number of you know, of of highly of

2330
02:34:30,719 --> 02:34:35,680
highly situated personages, you know, industrialists, consertive politicians, people of

2331
02:34:35,719 --> 02:34:40,719
this nature. You know, the uh it uh this is

2332
02:34:40,760 --> 02:34:44,319
really what facilitated the ascendency of a man like Helmet

2333
02:34:44,360 --> 02:34:47,000
Cole or the chancellorship. And this is one west, this one.

2334
02:34:47,040 --> 02:34:50,079
The Bonis Republic like rejoined the Cold War in earnest,

2335
02:34:50,520 --> 02:34:53,079
you know, and then all bets were off. And it

2336
02:34:53,159 --> 02:34:57,120
also there's something that profoundly sinister about this. I'm not

2337
02:34:57,159 --> 02:34:59,959
saying that in like a charny way, but you know,

2338
02:35:01,760 --> 02:35:05,600
the intelligence game, for whatever reason, the Russian the Soviets

2339
02:35:05,600 --> 02:35:08,200
and other Russians are very very good at it. They

2340
02:35:08,200 --> 02:35:11,120
were always way way better at it than NATO and

2341
02:35:11,200 --> 02:35:14,000
for whatever reason, and this was a testament to that.

2342
02:35:15,959 --> 02:35:20,159
You know, about ten years after the Guillaume affair, Hans Tige,

2343
02:35:20,520 --> 02:35:23,719
you know who was the who's the chief of the

2344
02:35:23,719 --> 02:35:29,520
counterintelligence Directorate of West German intelligence. He just literally defected

2345
02:35:29,520 --> 02:35:33,639
the East Germany. Okay, I mean there's nothing there, weren't

2346
02:35:33,639 --> 02:35:36,879
any people going the other way of that static. I mean, yeah,

2347
02:35:36,920 --> 02:35:40,239
there's people. There's people like you know Suberov, you know,

2348
02:35:40,879 --> 02:35:42,680
not the super Off, but you know, the guy whose

2349
02:35:42,719 --> 02:35:45,959
pen name was Victor Suvaroff. You know, there's mid level

2350
02:35:46,000 --> 02:35:51,840
Soviet officers, there's even a couple of generals, but nothing

2351
02:35:51,920 --> 02:35:57,559
like this, you know, and that's that. There's entire value

2352
02:35:57,639 --> 02:35:59,719
is written on why that was. But the point is

2353
02:35:59,799 --> 02:36:04,559
that this kind of killed anybody's idea, you know, even

2354
02:36:04,639 --> 02:36:06,600
kind of the most starwart you know, kind of soci

2355
02:36:06,719 --> 02:36:10,479
them like East Block apologists, I mean they realize that,

2356
02:36:10,559 --> 02:36:13,639
like the Communists, truly words aiming to subvert the Buddhist Republic,

2357
02:36:15,200 --> 02:36:19,200
render a defense list, you know, penetrated by any means necessary.

2358
02:36:20,719 --> 02:36:26,440
You know and and and thereby you know, remove Europe

2359
02:36:27,319 --> 02:36:33,879
from the American defense umbrella for all time. Okay, I

2360
02:36:33,879 --> 02:36:36,120
don't want to get into an argument about what the

2361
02:36:36,159 --> 02:36:38,479
implications of that are in like world historical terms, like

2362
02:36:38,559 --> 02:36:40,760
people know my opinion, but that that's not important. We're

2363
02:36:40,760 --> 02:36:43,680
talking with the bound of rationality, the Gold War and

2364
02:36:43,680 --> 02:36:46,959
in it's epoch, how people viewed these things because of

2365
02:36:47,200 --> 02:36:50,440
the tant and the hell stinky course and everything else.

2366
02:36:51,360 --> 02:36:53,719
So you look at that situation and then you know,

2367
02:36:53,879 --> 02:36:58,040
like we talked about last episode, uh, the assault in Afghanistan,

2368
02:36:58,680 --> 02:37:02,040
you know, the uh, the emergency deep parodies, you know,

2369
02:37:02,159 --> 02:37:07,840
and and uh and the Soviets attempt to to remedy that,

2370
02:37:08,559 --> 02:37:12,879
you know, by by deploying uh even more UH weapons platforms,

2371
02:37:12,920 --> 02:37:16,959
the massive throwway in the European theater, you know, and

2372
02:37:17,079 --> 02:37:23,239
Reagan regeway returning the serve was the deployment of intermediate

2373
02:37:24,000 --> 02:37:30,440
range UH nuclear weapons to uh, you know, to to

2374
02:37:30,440 --> 02:37:34,399
the Buddhist Republic, to Italy, to the Netherlands and another

2375
02:37:34,520 --> 02:37:42,479
key theaters. And that's uh, that's basically how I mean.

2376
02:37:42,479 --> 02:37:45,079
You can see kind of like a perfect storm of

2377
02:37:45,120 --> 02:37:53,440
causality leading to the leading to the status of tensions,

2378
02:37:53,479 --> 02:37:57,360
you know, by nineteen eighty three. I don't think that

2379
02:37:57,440 --> 02:38:06,680
there's I don't think that there's a comparable set a

2380
02:38:06,760 --> 02:38:10,959
crisis cycle in the Cold War. I mean there was,

2381
02:38:11,000 --> 02:38:13,040
like I said, there was nineteen seventy three, you know,

2382
02:38:13,079 --> 02:38:20,360
where the Soviets actually they deployed nuclear weapons, you know,

2383
02:38:20,440 --> 02:38:24,399
to the Middle Eastern theater in anticipation of a general

2384
02:38:24,440 --> 02:38:30,920
assault in support of their Egyptian ally. Nineteen sixty two. Obviously,

2385
02:38:31,440 --> 02:38:33,920
you know, there were the world, the United States and

2386
02:38:33,920 --> 02:38:37,440
the Soviet were very close to nuclear war. But that

2387
02:38:37,559 --> 02:38:41,600
was well before that was well before nuclear parody had

2388
02:38:41,600 --> 02:38:44,680
been achieved. So it yeah, okay, I mean I realized

2389
02:38:44,680 --> 02:38:47,120
it sounds like I'm being flippant, but if America took

2390
02:38:47,120 --> 02:38:49,799
twenty million dead, it still would have won. I mean,

2391
02:38:49,799 --> 02:38:52,280
there would have been no more Soviet Union. You know,

2392
02:38:53,000 --> 02:38:56,760
that's got different implications, you know, And it's not it's

2393
02:38:56,799 --> 02:38:58,799
not so much that you know nineteen eighty two to

2394
02:38:58,799 --> 02:39:01,879
eighty four, it's it's not so much that you know,

2395
02:39:01,920 --> 02:39:07,319
it was this punctuated moment like seventy three, when uh

2396
02:39:07,479 --> 02:39:11,159
America reached Defcon three, or like sixty two, when the

2397
02:39:11,280 --> 02:39:14,760
question was, you know, are the stories just gonna you know,

2398
02:39:15,319 --> 02:39:18,360
just gonna run the blockade. It was just kind of ongoing.

2399
02:39:19,200 --> 02:39:20,559
It was it was just kind of it was just

2400
02:39:20,639 --> 02:39:24,719
kind of like never ending state of elevated tension when

2401
02:39:24,719 --> 02:39:29,879
it seemed that at any moment, you know, uh, a

2402
02:39:29,959 --> 02:39:34,440
general crisis could deteriorate, it could deteriorate into nuclear war

2403
02:39:34,520 --> 02:39:37,280
before anybody even knew it was happening, owing a large

2404
02:39:37,319 --> 02:39:41,440
part two to the state of you know, weapons development

2405
02:39:41,479 --> 02:39:45,639
then and commanding control technology, which is essentially neutralized generally warning.

2406
02:39:47,600 --> 02:39:52,200
That's uh, what's important to consider, I believe, because I

2407
02:39:52,319 --> 02:39:54,079
do get asked by people like, well, why was this

2408
02:39:54,159 --> 02:39:56,760
so dangerous? There wasn't some you know, moment like in

2409
02:39:56,799 --> 02:39:59,479
the human missile crisis, So there wasn't some ultimatum issued,

2410
02:40:00,120 --> 02:40:02,559
you know, like when the Soviets declared that you know,

2411
02:40:02,559 --> 02:40:07,319
if the Israelis annihilated you know, the Egyptian army and

2412
02:40:07,360 --> 02:40:10,280
then and then Martina and Cairo that you know, the

2413
02:40:10,280 --> 02:40:12,920
Soviets would intervene and then if if met you know,

2414
02:40:13,680 --> 02:40:17,079
biconoparable American forces that you know, they resort to nuclear

2415
02:40:17,120 --> 02:40:20,559
weapons in order to prevent their own people from you know,

2416
02:40:20,600 --> 02:40:27,000
being surrounded and destroyed similarly. But that's that's kind of

2417
02:40:27,000 --> 02:40:28,680
what I got for today, because I don't want to

2418
02:40:29,159 --> 02:40:34,440
the the GORTROSSI sendency and kind of what ended this

2419
02:40:35,479 --> 02:40:40,639
strategic paradigm is significant. And the roll of Attias rust

2420
02:40:40,840 --> 02:40:44,440
the roosts, you know, the uh the kid who flew

2421
02:40:44,479 --> 02:40:48,120
his uh who flew his prop plane into Red Square.

2422
02:40:48,600 --> 02:40:53,040
That's a fascinating story and it's got huge significance for

2423
02:40:53,760 --> 02:40:58,200
you know, the kind of internal in like for for

2424
02:40:58,319 --> 02:41:02,879
Kremlin intrigues that you know led to a led to

2425
02:41:02,959 --> 02:41:06,120
a real policy shift. Why with the fact that it

2426
02:41:06,200 --> 02:41:10,680
costs many many Stalness hardliners and key rolls their jobs.

2427
02:41:10,719 --> 02:41:13,719
But I that I think we should say that for

2428
02:41:13,799 --> 02:41:16,239
next episode because again I want to deal with, you know,

2429
02:41:16,879 --> 02:41:19,600
the end of the drop of chert Ancle era in

2430
02:41:19,639 --> 02:41:22,680
the ascendency of gorbachhow next episode. So I think that's

2431
02:41:22,680 --> 02:41:23,000
all like.

2432
02:41:22,920 --> 02:41:27,600
Speaker 1: A well, let me ask you this, the shooting down

2433
02:41:27,680 --> 02:41:32,239
of zero zero seven. There had to have been close

2434
02:41:32,360 --> 02:41:35,600
calls before, There had to have been planes that flew

2435
02:41:35,639 --> 02:41:38,719
into airspace. Why was it that one? Yeah, not to

2436
02:41:38,879 --> 02:41:41,120
you know, not to put on a tinfoil hat and everything,

2437
02:41:41,159 --> 02:41:43,440
but it you know, and like you said, there was

2438
02:41:43,520 --> 02:41:47,440
always that flight would always have someone on it of significance.

2439
02:41:48,000 --> 02:41:49,399
But why do you think it was just at that

2440
02:41:49,520 --> 02:41:51,600
time it was just that was the perfect storm time.

2441
02:41:53,000 --> 02:41:56,079
Speaker 3: That was the perfect storm time. It's not clear why,

2442
02:41:56,319 --> 02:42:00,479
because you know, even in those days there was you

2443
02:42:00,520 --> 02:42:06,479
could recover audio from from from rex like the black Box.

2444
02:42:06,520 --> 02:42:11,079
I guess the Soviets tried to hail this plane and

2445
02:42:11,120 --> 02:42:13,440
like I said, at seven forty seven, Apparently I'm not

2446
02:42:13,479 --> 02:42:15,399
like an aviation guy like I like war birds. I

2447
02:42:15,399 --> 02:42:17,799
think they're cool, but I don't know anything about like

2448
02:42:17,879 --> 02:42:22,879
the you know, particulars of it. Apparently a seven forty seven,

2449
02:42:23,280 --> 02:42:25,959
like I said, looks basically just like an a wax

2450
02:42:26,399 --> 02:42:29,000
of the era, like even at visual arrange. So the

2451
02:42:29,040 --> 02:42:33,840
Soviets are like, you know, why why we're not just

2452
02:42:33,840 --> 02:42:36,719
being spoofed. This is you know, this isn't this isn't

2453
02:42:36,760 --> 02:42:40,520
early They're trying, they're trying to detect their early warning

2454
02:42:40,520 --> 02:42:44,760
and how much it's lit up. They tried to hail

2455
02:42:45,239 --> 02:42:48,840
the pilot on you know, whatever the you know, international

2456
02:42:48,879 --> 02:42:55,319
emergency frequency is, and it was dead silence. This Sukoy

2457
02:42:55,600 --> 02:42:59,639
got on his tail and made clear that like it

2458
02:42:59,719 --> 02:43:04,639
was you know, at attack range you know, and it

2459
02:43:04,719 --> 02:43:09,319
still didn't deviate from its course. You know, the pilot

2460
02:43:09,360 --> 02:43:13,440
who took it down obviously, you know, he was forced

2461
02:43:13,440 --> 02:43:16,520
to lie by the cremlin and stuff. You know, sometime

2462
02:43:16,559 --> 02:43:20,760
in the two thousands, you know, he he he testified

2463
02:43:21,959 --> 02:43:26,000
to this British filmmaker about everything that happened, and uh,

2464
02:43:26,479 --> 02:43:28,120
he's like, yeah, you know, he's like, when I got

2465
02:43:28,120 --> 02:43:30,639
the order to the fire, I didn't hesitate, and he's like,

2466
02:43:30,680 --> 02:43:32,479
I didn't think it was. He's like, I didn't think

2467
02:43:32,479 --> 02:43:34,040
we were gonna He's like, I didn't think it was,

2468
02:43:34,120 --> 02:43:36,639
you know, a precursor to an attack. But he's like,

2469
02:43:36,719 --> 02:43:39,760
I it didn't make sense what it was doing. You know,

2470
02:43:40,520 --> 02:43:45,760
He's like, I thought something wasn't right here. What some

2471
02:43:45,799 --> 02:43:48,319
of these FAA types, some of these like investigator types

2472
02:43:48,360 --> 02:43:51,479
and guys you know aviation claim or like what they think.

2473
02:43:53,280 --> 02:43:55,680
I mean, we take for granted that it's a hell

2474
02:43:55,719 --> 02:43:58,200
of a lot easier I mean, in in aviation and

2475
02:43:58,200 --> 02:44:02,559
anywhere else these days to identify your your true position.

2476
02:44:03,639 --> 02:44:11,280
In those days, it wasn't. The consensus is that these

2477
02:44:11,360 --> 02:44:15,120
Korean pilots were wildly off course. They had no idea

2478
02:44:15,159 --> 02:44:19,040
they were in the Soviet airspace at all. So like

2479
02:44:19,040 --> 02:44:22,000
when a sue who got on their tail ivan does

2480
02:44:22,120 --> 02:44:24,719
their their idea with their nose. Probably ivan does crazy

2481
02:44:24,799 --> 02:44:29,520
things all the time, you know. Uh, they wouldn't even

2482
02:44:29,520 --> 02:44:31,799
occur to them, like we're gonna get blown out of

2483
02:44:31,799 --> 02:44:36,239
the sky. Plus yeah, the fact it was a perfect

2484
02:44:36,280 --> 02:44:41,159
storm of of of concrete tensions, you know, going to

2485
02:44:41,200 --> 02:44:45,239
the global situation. But it's weird, and it's weird that

2486
02:44:45,319 --> 02:44:47,440
McDonald was just having to be on that plane, you know.

2487
02:44:47,479 --> 02:44:49,319
And it's like and then too like a lot of

2488
02:44:49,319 --> 02:44:51,760
Burcher types and stuff and not and and other just

2489
02:44:51,799 --> 02:44:54,680
like right wing guys not even like Bircher cranks were

2490
02:44:54,719 --> 02:44:57,200
like obviously the Soviets are just doing this because they can,

2491
02:44:57,520 --> 02:44:59,920
and they hated McDonald anyway, so they just killed it.

2492
02:45:00,239 --> 02:45:02,239
And I mean, honestly, I can see why people want

2493
02:45:02,239 --> 02:45:05,879
have thought that because it's weird, you know, and I

2494
02:45:05,879 --> 02:45:09,200
mean the Cold War was weird, you know, and it's uh,

2495
02:45:09,520 --> 02:45:13,360
and plus the they the Soviets did grindy ship. I

2496
02:45:13,360 --> 02:45:15,600
mean they you know, in the same epoch, you know,

2497
02:45:15,680 --> 02:45:19,040
they it's clear now like they they retained some freaking

2498
02:45:19,920 --> 02:45:21,959
you know, this this Turk to try and murder the Pope,

2499
02:45:22,559 --> 02:45:26,319
like you know they uh, the uh, these Popular Front

2500
02:45:26,360 --> 02:45:29,159
for the Liberation of Palestine guys were going berserk. You know.

2501
02:45:29,239 --> 02:45:30,959
They were the guys who blew up the Disco tech

2502
02:45:31,000 --> 02:45:33,159
in West Berlin. Like those were those guys were like

2503
02:45:33,200 --> 02:45:36,000
in the in the influence of the Stazi and Operation

2504
02:45:36,079 --> 02:45:39,360
Control of KGB was over the Stazi. It's like they

2505
02:45:39,399 --> 02:45:41,680
you know, obviously it's a different thing that you know,

2506
02:45:41,760 --> 02:45:44,760
to blow a civilian airline around the sky with with

2507
02:45:44,840 --> 02:45:47,079
a war bird. But it, you know, the Soviet Union

2508
02:45:47,159 --> 02:45:52,600
was behaving. It was behaving very much like a lawless actor,

2509
02:45:53,559 --> 02:45:53,760
you know.

2510
02:45:54,319 --> 02:45:56,319
Speaker 1: But I mean, but that wasn't top down right, I

2511
02:45:56,399 --> 02:45:58,639
mean with the premiere of that they were gonna do.

2512
02:45:58,760 --> 02:46:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, this is just what happened, was what

2513
02:46:02,719 --> 02:46:05,280
I said. It was was yeah, but I understand. My

2514
02:46:05,319 --> 02:46:07,200
point was I could see why people who weren't crazy

2515
02:46:07,239 --> 02:46:09,399
you could think that, you know, this was this was

2516
02:46:09,440 --> 02:46:12,959
just the Soviets being brutes. I mean that. But yeah,

2517
02:46:13,000 --> 02:46:15,280
I mean it was it was there. There wasn't there's

2518
02:46:15,319 --> 02:46:18,360
not like a deeper there's not deeper lore there. But yeah,

2519
02:46:18,440 --> 02:46:20,760
McDonald was a and I mean it's sad McDonald died.

2520
02:46:20,799 --> 02:46:21,920
I mean I don't. I'm not a fan of the

2521
02:46:21,920 --> 02:46:24,959
Birth Society, but there's some good guys in there. Like

2522
02:46:25,000 --> 02:46:27,399
that is now when McDonald was probably he was not

2523
02:46:27,440 --> 02:46:29,280
the last Congress when it was actually worse shit, he

2524
02:46:29,319 --> 02:46:32,479
was a good dude, you know, I mean it, I

2525
02:46:32,840 --> 02:46:35,239
missed the days when there was like democrats who weren't

2526
02:46:35,319 --> 02:46:38,639
just like not like shit bags and perverts, but they

2527
02:46:38,680 --> 02:46:46,239
actually were like dude who represented their constituents. And McDonald's

2528
02:46:46,239 --> 02:46:47,959
a guy who did that. And arguably, I mean he

2529
02:46:48,040 --> 02:46:49,600
died for him. He wouldn't have been on that stupid

2530
02:46:49,600 --> 02:46:51,719
plane going to South Korea, like if he you know,

2531
02:46:52,760 --> 02:46:55,879
wasn't acting in his official capacity. I mean that, you know,

2532
02:46:55,959 --> 02:46:58,799
in the Cold War, I mean politicians now they're like

2533
02:46:58,959 --> 02:47:01,200
they're like total devans and losers because like, no man

2534
02:47:01,200 --> 02:47:02,920
who's got anything going on in his life like goes

2535
02:47:02,959 --> 02:47:05,079
into politics. But the Cold War was different. You know,

2536
02:47:05,840 --> 02:47:08,040
you had you had like real guys, and you had

2537
02:47:08,040 --> 02:47:12,239
people who had something to offer, who went into who

2538
02:47:12,319 --> 02:47:14,920
went into public life, you know, like McDonald. You know,

2539
02:47:15,000 --> 02:47:18,239
I mean it's and it's it's a tragedy, you know.

2540
02:47:18,280 --> 02:47:21,120
And as we're you know, the right, those other two

2541
02:47:21,159 --> 02:47:22,600
Hudred and six and nine people on board. You know

2542
02:47:22,600 --> 02:47:24,920
when there was like I said it was it was

2543
02:47:24,959 --> 02:47:27,520
multi official types and business people, but you know there

2544
02:47:27,600 --> 02:47:29,559
was still there was a couple of dozen women and kids.

2545
02:47:29,639 --> 02:47:34,840
I mean the thing was fucking awful. But uh yeah, yeah.

2546
02:47:34,360 --> 02:47:37,920
Speaker 2: Well plugs and we're out here.

2547
02:47:38,600 --> 02:47:41,399
Speaker 3: Yeah like again too, like let me terrorized by bourbapps,

2548
02:47:41,440 --> 02:47:45,680
so like, please don't pay it any mind. I I

2549
02:47:45,680 --> 02:47:47,520
guess not. In a week, I'll be back on there,

2550
02:47:47,559 --> 02:47:50,479
but I'm trying to phase it out as we kind

2551
02:47:50,520 --> 02:47:53,760
of transition to the channel. But I mean in the intrum.

2552
02:47:53,959 --> 02:47:56,440
I mean, you can find me on t ram. Uh,

2553
02:47:56,559 --> 02:47:59,760
you'll find me on sub stack real Thomas seven seven seven,

2554
02:47:59,760 --> 02:48:04,399
that's upstack dot com. My YouTube channel is Thomas TV.

2555
02:48:05,520 --> 02:48:09,319
The the trailer uh or the promo is up for

2556
02:48:09,399 --> 02:48:13,040
the channel. The intro. Rather, I'm in the process of

2557
02:48:13,040 --> 02:48:16,879
recording the first episode, as I hope people gleaned from

2558
02:48:17,000 --> 02:48:21,479
the intro that my dear friend and bro Rake created

2559
02:48:21,479 --> 02:48:24,399
for us. I I want this to be very high quality.

2560
02:48:24,639 --> 02:48:27,680
I'm not just like throwing shit out there, you know,

2561
02:48:28,239 --> 02:48:32,520
so it takes time to produce it. I I'm I'm

2562
02:48:32,559 --> 02:48:36,600
I'm piecemeal getting the equipment I need uh to do

2563
02:48:36,719 --> 02:48:40,319
this in a more exponitious capacity. But like, please bear

2564
02:48:40,360 --> 02:48:43,559
with me. I promised by April first we will have

2565
02:48:43,680 --> 02:48:47,440
like actual episodes. But that's that's my that's my jive

2566
02:48:47,520 --> 02:48:48,319
as of today.

2567
02:48:48,959 --> 02:48:50,840
Speaker 1: All right, man, I appreciate it. Till the next time.

2568
02:48:51,239 --> 02:48:52,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, Pete.

2569
02:48:53,360 --> 02:48:57,360
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecana Show. Thomas,

2570
02:48:57,399 --> 02:48:58,079
how are you doing?

2571
02:48:58,600 --> 02:49:01,760
Speaker 3: I'm all right? Thanks for hosting me. Yeah. Man, So.

2572
02:49:03,280 --> 02:49:09,120
Speaker 1: Last time we talked talked about Yaki and talked about Spangler,

2573
02:49:09,600 --> 02:49:11,760
and it's time to get back to the Cold War

2574
02:49:11,920 --> 02:49:13,239
series episode fourteen.

2575
02:49:13,360 --> 02:49:14,360
Speaker 2: What he got for us today?

2576
02:49:14,840 --> 02:49:17,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, we left off with the able Archer and the

2577
02:49:17,600 --> 02:49:19,280
and drop b Era. I mean to me, the and

2578
02:49:19,399 --> 02:49:24,360
Droppa of Era was properly from you know, about nineteen

2579
02:49:24,360 --> 02:49:26,840
sixty four until he died. I mean, I you know,

2580
02:49:26,879 --> 02:49:28,399
like I said, I think he was. He was like

2581
02:49:28,440 --> 02:49:32,639
the kind of eminence behind the facade of Soviet power

2582
02:49:32,760 --> 02:49:35,280
that you know, when Breshnav was at the Helm. That's

2583
02:49:35,280 --> 02:49:37,600
not to say Bresnev was was some kind of cipher.

2584
02:49:38,040 --> 02:49:42,200
I when Bresnev became elderly, he was no longer you know,

2585
02:49:42,280 --> 02:49:45,719
I mean, he was no longer mentally commonent the last

2586
02:49:45,920 --> 02:49:49,639
few years of his life. But Bresna was a serious personage,

2587
02:49:51,520 --> 02:49:53,360
you know. I mean, there's a reason why he replaced

2588
02:49:53,440 --> 02:49:55,319
Khrush chief, you know, like he was writing the ship.

2589
02:49:55,559 --> 02:49:58,399
He was writing the ship after the you know, the

2590
02:49:58,520 --> 02:50:01,959
kind of disaster that was crui if in power political terms,

2591
02:50:02,360 --> 02:50:04,399
you know, in Brezhnev was in a lot of ways

2592
02:50:04,399 --> 02:50:06,440
he was kind of a true Stalinist, you know, I mean,

2593
02:50:06,879 --> 02:50:12,520
but the true I mean a state. It's at the

2594
02:50:12,559 --> 02:50:17,639
scale of the Soviet Union, you know, even even accounting

2595
02:50:17,680 --> 02:50:21,719
with the fact that you know, the Russian the Russian

2596
02:50:21,920 --> 02:50:24,799
Russian political areas, sense of constrate power in one man,

2597
02:50:24,879 --> 02:50:26,520
even in times of peace, like in a way that

2598
02:50:27,760 --> 02:50:31,120
seems peculiar in the West. I mean, I'm not even

2599
02:50:31,159 --> 02:50:33,600
saying that punitively. I mean, it's just like an objective

2600
02:50:34,760 --> 02:50:38,920
account of things. But you know, the Soviet Union at

2601
02:50:38,920 --> 02:50:42,799
its zenith, it just was not that the scale and complexity.

2602
02:50:42,879 --> 02:50:46,680
I mean when I parttically would consider you know, the

2603
02:50:46,680 --> 02:50:50,200
the way that Marcius lantin the states were organized, where

2604
02:50:50,200 --> 02:50:53,600
there you know, we're central planning, you know, truly was

2605
02:50:53,639 --> 02:50:55,719
the order of the day, you know, not I mean

2606
02:50:55,719 --> 02:50:59,399
that that's what policy was. That's that's that that's what

2607
02:50:59,440 --> 02:51:01,280
the production is scheme it was. It wasn't you know,

2608
02:51:02,200 --> 02:51:04,719
It's something that they aimed to realize. I mean that

2609
02:51:04,719 --> 02:51:08,399
that's how they They truly had, you know, an economy

2610
02:51:08,440 --> 02:51:11,680
that you know, had abolished the price mechanism and was

2611
02:51:12,559 --> 02:51:17,159
managed by you know, thousands upon thousands upon millions of inputs.

2612
02:51:18,000 --> 02:51:20,520
So I mean, no, what I'm getting at is that no,

2613
02:51:20,520 --> 02:51:25,079
no matter how much of a brilliant uh, you know,

2614
02:51:25,920 --> 02:51:28,319
personage bresident of would have might might might not have

2615
02:51:28,360 --> 02:51:30,360
been like no, no single man could have managed that.

2616
02:51:30,479 --> 02:51:33,680
So I mean the point that kind of the the

2617
02:51:33,760 --> 02:51:38,600
trifecta of Soviet power was really a drop of u

2618
02:51:39,360 --> 02:51:44,120
gram Eco and Ustinov, dmitriy Houston off the field, Marshal

2619
02:51:46,719 --> 02:51:50,040
and uh, you know, particularly on Mayor's a warrant peace

2620
02:51:50,799 --> 02:51:53,319
and drop off was kind of the final authority. And

2621
02:51:53,680 --> 02:51:55,680
you know, the decision to go to war in Afghanistan

2622
02:51:55,799 --> 02:51:57,760
is very much and drop off decision. And I think

2623
02:51:57,760 --> 02:52:06,879
we got into that and the uh, the decline of

2624
02:52:07,040 --> 02:52:13,239
that trifecta, I mean, most frankly, I mean, I drop

2625
02:52:13,280 --> 02:52:16,719
Off died and then Usanov died shortly after. I mean,

2626
02:52:16,760 --> 02:52:21,319
that's that's really what allowed Glassnos and pera strika like

2627
02:52:21,440 --> 02:52:26,239
as policy to become develop and evolved the way it did. However,

2628
02:52:26,559 --> 02:52:30,360
you know, Gerbachev was in drop offs protege, and that's

2629
02:52:30,399 --> 02:52:33,399
the reason why he truly was in drop off successor.

2630
02:52:33,440 --> 02:52:35,360
You know, this idea that Grbachev's like this kind of

2631
02:52:35,399 --> 02:52:37,399
crazy liberal or that he was like this kind of

2632
02:52:37,479 --> 02:52:41,559
yeltsin like buffoon who was just kind of like drunk

2633
02:52:42,000 --> 02:52:45,799
on the prospect of uh, you know, of of of

2634
02:52:45,920 --> 02:52:48,479
kind of like slash and burn capitalism. That's not true

2635
02:52:48,520 --> 02:52:52,559
at all. We'll get into the next episode, which will

2636
02:52:52,559 --> 02:52:53,920
probably be kind of like close to the end of

2637
02:52:53,920 --> 02:52:58,840
our series. That's like why you know, why why the

2638
02:52:58,840 --> 02:53:00,639
Soviet Union went down in flame the way it did.

2639
02:53:00,639 --> 02:53:03,239
But it wasn't because Gorbachev wanted to just like burn

2640
02:53:03,239 --> 02:53:07,719
the structure down or like pull the plug. But when

2641
02:53:07,760 --> 02:53:11,120
it drop off died his immediate his immediate successor was

2642
02:53:11,639 --> 02:53:14,559
Constantine Schernenko, you know, who was kind of like a

2643
02:53:14,719 --> 02:53:18,040
doddering fool in the eyes of the world, and I mean,

2644
02:53:18,079 --> 02:53:20,920
by that point he was totally senile. But the reason

2645
02:53:20,959 --> 02:53:25,440
why that this kind of placeholder was insinuated into the

2646
02:53:25,879 --> 02:53:29,239
General Secretariat was because there was a real battle within

2647
02:53:29,280 --> 02:53:31,719
the Kremlin as to which way the Soviet Union was

2648
02:53:31,760 --> 02:53:34,799
going to go. Not even it wasn't nobody foresaw in

2649
02:53:34,840 --> 02:53:37,399
the early eighties that you know, the East Blocks is

2650
02:53:37,479 --> 02:53:41,239
going to come apart, like nobody, you know, like we

2651
02:53:41,360 --> 02:53:43,600
talked about before. There's people like Kennan and people like

2652
02:53:43,680 --> 02:53:49,879
Yaki himself, you know, who didn't the Soviet Union as

2653
02:53:49,920 --> 02:53:52,360
it existed, you know, in the nineteen fifties and during

2654
02:53:52,399 --> 02:53:54,360
into the twenty first century. But even they did to

2655
02:53:54,360 --> 02:53:57,559
see the whole system just like dissolving, you know, like

2656
02:53:57,600 --> 02:54:01,600
the way it did. So people were suspicious of garbageow Off.

2657
02:54:01,600 --> 02:54:03,639
It wasn't because they thought, like, you know, he's gonna

2658
02:54:04,000 --> 02:54:06,319
he's gonna sell the party down the river or something.

2659
02:54:06,360 --> 02:54:09,000
It was because you know, you had you had these

2660
02:54:09,040 --> 02:54:11,959
discreete personages who you know, to whom kind of like

2661
02:54:12,000 --> 02:54:16,799
the up and coming uh commissars like had had like

2662
02:54:16,840 --> 02:54:20,840
individual loyalty to you know, and garbage Off despite the

2663
02:54:20,879 --> 02:54:22,959
fact that he'd been in drop offs guy, I mean

2664
02:54:23,000 --> 02:54:26,040
it uh that that carried a lot of cloud, but

2665
02:54:26,920 --> 02:54:30,879
it wasn't. It wasn't enough, you know, to just to

2666
02:54:31,000 --> 02:54:33,200
just hand hand him the reins and like an absolute

2667
02:54:33,200 --> 02:54:38,000
capacity without you know, any kind of without any without

2668
02:54:38,079 --> 02:54:41,040
without anything being finessed beforehand, and like you know, promises

2669
02:54:41,079 --> 02:54:44,040
being made and you know and kind of certain uh

2670
02:54:44,600 --> 02:54:48,479
ceremonies being stood upon as a word. But Tarnanko was

2671
02:54:48,520 --> 02:54:50,719
not and his youth, he actually the guy was kind

2672
02:54:50,719 --> 02:54:53,159
of like at pure commissar. I mean, obviously he's sert.

2673
02:54:53,200 --> 02:54:54,559
You know, he's started in the Red Army, you know,

2674
02:54:54,680 --> 02:54:57,680
during the you know, the Russian Soviets and the Russians

2675
02:54:57,719 --> 02:55:00,959
today called the Great Patriotic War. He spent his entire

2676
02:55:01,000 --> 02:55:05,120
career at propaganda and and and and as an ideological cadre.

2677
02:55:05,319 --> 02:55:06,440
You know. Like I said, the guy was like a

2678
02:55:06,440 --> 02:55:09,120
pure commissar. You know, it's just like what he did,

2679
02:55:09,319 --> 02:55:12,559
you know. And he he was very much an intermediary

2680
02:55:12,879 --> 02:55:15,280
like uh with the Defense establishment, even though he didn't

2681
02:55:15,319 --> 02:55:17,959
like spend a career in uniform like uh. And they

2682
02:55:18,000 --> 02:55:20,120
trusted him and they liked him. You know. So this

2683
02:55:20,239 --> 02:55:22,319
guy you can see with the Soviet Union, the fact

2684
02:55:22,360 --> 02:55:25,840
that they took you know, every William Odam who will

2685
02:55:26,040 --> 02:55:28,120
we'll talk about a little bit later in this episode. Uh,

2686
02:55:28,200 --> 02:55:31,200
you know, an American general and and probably the preeminent

2687
02:55:31,280 --> 02:55:35,639
authority on a nuclear warfare. And I say, I'd say

2688
02:55:35,639 --> 02:55:40,639
Thomas Schelling on the civilian side would be entitled to

2689
02:55:41,000 --> 02:55:44,440
the moniker. But as far as the general officer goes,

2690
02:55:44,719 --> 02:55:47,280
it was Odam and William Odum he was he was

2691
02:55:47,360 --> 02:55:51,200
kind of the one, you know, Uh, he was kind

2692
02:55:51,200 --> 02:55:56,000
of the one, like you know, common experience general officer

2693
02:55:57,239 --> 02:55:58,959
who was saying in the wake of Able Archer that

2694
02:55:59,040 --> 02:56:01,159
like Loo, the Soviet Union is serious, Like they're not,

2695
02:56:01,799 --> 02:56:03,440
They're they're not, they're not pretending to be on high

2696
02:56:03,440 --> 02:56:05,479
alert like they they actually are, you know, and they

2697
02:56:05,520 --> 02:56:07,360
actually are in a war footing. And like the more

2698
02:56:07,399 --> 02:56:11,040
you the more you you spoof them, you know, the

2699
02:56:11,079 --> 02:56:14,200
more paranoid you make them, and the more likely it

2700
02:56:14,319 --> 02:56:16,200
is that, you know, a real war is going to develop,

2701
02:56:16,559 --> 02:56:27,639
uh before we even realize what's under way. But Odam, uh,

2702
02:56:28,440 --> 02:56:35,159
you know, he he was right. Uh. And uh, the

2703
02:56:35,200 --> 02:56:37,399
Soviet Union being that it was very much on a

2704
02:56:37,440 --> 02:56:40,719
war footing and kind of the entire vector of policy

2705
02:56:41,520 --> 02:56:45,959
it had had like a strategic nuclear axis. Sharon Anko,

2706
02:56:46,000 --> 02:56:47,760
if you're gonna go to war, Sharon Anko is a

2707
02:56:47,799 --> 02:56:51,120
guy who you'd kind of want in the General secretariat. Yeah,

2708
02:56:51,200 --> 02:56:53,200
but at that point he was dotty in senile. But

2709
02:56:53,239 --> 02:56:56,959
the fact is, uh, the guy had tremendous esteem from

2710
02:56:57,000 --> 02:57:02,639
the military, from the uniform to the design bureaus, you know,

2711
02:57:03,159 --> 02:57:06,000
to the men who were suits every day to work,

2712
02:57:06,040 --> 02:57:09,639
but who were like the kind of military industrial complex

2713
02:57:09,639 --> 02:57:12,440
as representatives of the polit burero like Chernanko was like

2714
02:57:12,479 --> 02:57:14,360
a guy like none of them would have like disagreed

2715
02:57:14,360 --> 02:57:17,120
on and on the party side, you know, the guy

2716
02:57:17,120 --> 02:57:19,719
had been basically chief ideologists like when he was young

2717
02:57:19,719 --> 02:57:24,000
and had his brains. So it didn't matter that Chernanko

2718
02:57:24,040 --> 02:57:26,879
himself was wholly out of it because obviously like his

2719
02:57:27,000 --> 02:57:30,760
proteges or people very much who were you know, viewed

2720
02:57:30,760 --> 02:57:34,000
as carrying out like his will and legacy. And if

2721
02:57:34,000 --> 02:57:36,440
it was gonna come down like a general war with NATO,

2722
02:57:37,799 --> 02:57:39,760
he's kind of a man you'd want there. He would

2723
02:57:39,799 --> 02:57:41,799
not want to hand the reins to borbashaw Off, even

2724
02:57:41,799 --> 02:57:45,079
if he thought he was a great prodigy because uh,

2725
02:57:45,920 --> 02:57:47,959
you know, I mean he was in his fifties. He

2726
02:57:48,000 --> 02:57:50,639
wasn't like young and absolute terms, but he was like

2727
02:57:50,719 --> 02:57:53,479
a sprats like in the Soviet system, like he was

2728
02:57:53,520 --> 02:57:55,559
literally like the youngest man like in the polit Buro.

2729
02:57:56,040 --> 02:57:59,200
But beyond that, as much as he shadowed it drop

2730
02:57:59,280 --> 02:58:01,399
off and when it drop us final year when he

2731
02:58:01,479 --> 02:58:04,920
was you know, bedridden, basically, Garbachov would literally stand in

2732
02:58:05,000 --> 02:58:07,840
for him. That's definitely being the actual decision maker, particularly

2733
02:58:07,840 --> 02:58:10,000
a general secretary in a system like the Soviet Union.

2734
02:58:10,680 --> 02:58:16,280
So considering the international situation, it wasn't just internal politics

2735
02:58:16,280 --> 02:58:22,120
and egos and and kind of literally byzantine, you know,

2736
02:58:22,719 --> 02:58:27,479
intrigues that led to Scheronanko getting installed on a general

2737
02:58:27,520 --> 02:58:30,479
secretary there, there's like an internal logic to it, like

2738
02:58:30,600 --> 02:58:33,239
weird as the Soviet system was and kind of strange

2739
02:58:33,239 --> 02:58:39,440
to us as the Russian system is. But as uh

2740
02:58:39,920 --> 02:58:45,399
As Garbachev succeeded Tcheronenko who died in office just like

2741
02:58:45,479 --> 02:58:49,639
interrop of day and just like bresnav did you know,

2742
02:58:49,680 --> 02:58:52,559
and that and that hurt the Soviet Union in in

2743
02:58:52,559 --> 02:58:54,799
in in terms of their optics in a basic way

2744
02:58:55,799 --> 02:59:00,040
in eighty two, like Bresnev you know, dies like a

2745
02:59:00,120 --> 02:59:02,200
year and ten months later like and drop Off dies,

2746
02:59:02,239 --> 02:59:04,719
and then literally thirteen months later like Cheranngle dies. It's

2747
02:59:04,719 --> 02:59:07,559
like you've got this, you know, the world's one of

2748
02:59:07,559 --> 02:59:10,319
the world's you know, one of the world's only two superpowers,

2749
02:59:10,719 --> 02:59:13,200
you know, the mighty Soviet Union. It's like they've got

2750
02:59:13,200 --> 02:59:15,520
these doddering old men, like one after the other, like

2751
02:59:15,559 --> 02:59:17,719
who just literally keep dying. That's not a good look,

2752
02:59:18,319 --> 02:59:23,040
you know, and especially contra Reagan, who uh, I mean

2753
02:59:23,040 --> 02:59:25,559
these days, Reagan wouldn't seem like pretty elderly, but in

2754
02:59:25,600 --> 02:59:27,559
those days, people talk a lot of shit, like, you know,

2755
02:59:27,719 --> 02:59:29,879
Reagan's just this old man, even though he was only

2756
02:59:29,920 --> 02:59:32,719
about seventy, which was old, I mean in nineteen eighty.

2757
02:59:32,959 --> 02:59:36,079
But Reagan, the guy had like an absurd amount of energy,

2758
02:59:36,479 --> 02:59:39,200
you know, like almost Trump tried to capture some of that.

2759
02:59:39,399 --> 02:59:41,239
And Trump is a high energy guy pretty lately for

2760
02:59:41,280 --> 02:59:45,000
a guy who's like pushing eighty. But with Reagan, it

2761
02:59:45,079 --> 02:59:47,680
like was not at all like an affectation. So you've

2762
02:59:47,680 --> 02:59:49,799
got like Reagan, who's you know, Reagan's aways got a

2763
02:59:49,799 --> 02:59:52,000
smile on his face, so he's got perfect hair. You know,

2764
02:59:52,040 --> 02:59:54,719
the guy's like sharp as a fucking tack, and you know,

2765
02:59:54,760 --> 02:59:56,879
he's got a sense of humored arrival, like he's got

2766
02:59:56,959 --> 03:00:00,360
he's got a dry humored arrival Johnny Carson. You got him,

2767
03:00:00,360 --> 03:00:03,319
and then you got like literally doddering, shaking Bresnet, who's like,

2768
03:00:03,360 --> 03:00:05,719
you know, dropping dead week later. You know, you have

2769
03:00:05,760 --> 03:00:07,360
to replace me. And it's like even worse. I'm like,

2770
03:00:08,040 --> 03:00:11,200
you know, he's you know, he's dead within you know,

2771
03:00:11,239 --> 03:00:13,799
within less than two years. Like it it indicated like

2772
03:00:13,840 --> 03:00:19,440
a real, real structural problem. But that's why, that's why

2773
03:00:19,440 --> 03:00:24,680
there's so much uncertainty on Garbachew because, like I said,

2774
03:00:25,200 --> 03:00:28,200
he was, uh he was the youngest man in the

2775
03:00:28,200 --> 03:00:31,120
poet Burrow. His main rival was a guy named Gregory Roumanoff,

2776
03:00:32,760 --> 03:00:36,440
who was very much uh it was very much a

2777
03:00:36,559 --> 03:00:45,319
hawk uh on on on strategic matters. He uh he

2778
03:00:45,440 --> 03:00:49,159
staunchly opposed any kind of compromise and intermediate nuclear forces

2779
03:00:49,200 --> 03:00:52,079
in Europe. As we talked about last episode, that that's

2780
03:00:52,120 --> 03:00:56,479
what prompted the person to deployment was uh, you know,

2781
03:00:57,879 --> 03:01:04,040
that was the primary like theater based nuclear weapons platform

2782
03:01:04,159 --> 03:01:09,399
for the US Army and deployed in the Buddhist Republic

2783
03:01:09,719 --> 03:01:14,239
or in Italy or in the Benelux countries that's at

2784
03:01:14,239 --> 03:01:19,159
the cavitation range of Moscow. And the impetus for that

2785
03:01:19,959 --> 03:01:26,399
was a Soviet deployment of of SS nineteens and SS twenties.

2786
03:01:28,120 --> 03:01:34,600
Obviously the intention of Soviets with the decopple European strategic

2787
03:01:34,680 --> 03:01:38,000
policy from America's, you know, like if you threaten Europe

2788
03:01:38,000 --> 03:01:40,079
in nuclear annihilation and tell them like look and in

2789
03:01:40,120 --> 03:01:44,559
general war, we're gonna target you simultaneous United States and

2790
03:01:44,600 --> 03:01:46,280
as long as you're in NATO, like there's no way

2791
03:01:46,280 --> 03:01:50,399
out of this. That changed things, and I believe that's

2792
03:01:50,440 --> 03:01:52,079
one of the things that really put the Green Party

2793
03:01:52,079 --> 03:01:55,120
on the map, Okay, like environmental stuff or like social

2794
03:01:55,280 --> 03:01:58,799
justice stuff as we think of it today, that was incidental,

2795
03:01:59,399 --> 03:02:00,760
Like there is a will fly out of the Green

2796
03:02:00,799 --> 03:02:04,799
Party is because Germans are genuinely terrified of of Germany

2797
03:02:04,799 --> 03:02:07,799
being the designated like nuclear battle theater of World War three,

2798
03:02:07,840 --> 03:02:09,760
and like I don't follow them for that. Okay, I'm

2799
03:02:09,760 --> 03:02:12,000
not thinking, I say, with the Green Party, but it's

2800
03:02:12,000 --> 03:02:13,719
easy for people to say no, like, oh, those guys

2801
03:02:13,719 --> 03:02:15,799
are all just like faggots. It's like, okay, man, but

2802
03:02:15,920 --> 03:02:19,120
like I you know, some guy in the Buddhist Republic

2803
03:02:19,159 --> 03:02:21,399
in nineteen eighty, like he wasn't just being a fagot

2804
03:02:21,440 --> 03:02:23,479
if he's like, you know, I don't like it. I

2805
03:02:23,479 --> 03:02:25,639
don't want to be the designated, Like I don't my

2806
03:02:25,719 --> 03:02:28,840
house being like a designated you know, like like nuclear

2807
03:02:28,879 --> 03:02:32,239
battlefield between Ivan and America. Like you know, it's not

2808
03:02:32,920 --> 03:02:34,879
we can't even really be secialize what that was like.

2809
03:02:34,920 --> 03:02:37,040
And I mean it's also you know, West Germany was

2810
03:02:37,040 --> 03:02:37,600
like little like.

2811
03:02:37,840 --> 03:02:39,639
Speaker 1: People have no idea, people have no idea what it

2812
03:02:39,680 --> 03:02:41,959
was like there. I mean my parent, my parents lived

2813
03:02:41,959 --> 03:02:44,280
there for three years. I was born there. You know,

2814
03:02:44,360 --> 03:02:49,120
my dad had to go through checkpoint Charlie. Yeah, I

2815
03:02:49,200 --> 03:02:55,159
mean it was He's at the closest definitions of dystopian

2816
03:02:55,239 --> 03:02:55,959
that there ever was.

2817
03:02:56,639 --> 03:02:58,760
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's like William Odom speaking of him as

2818
03:02:58,760 --> 03:03:01,040
well as some of these line officers, and like even

2819
03:03:01,079 --> 03:03:02,959
my dad was never like deployed there, but I mean

2820
03:03:03,000 --> 03:03:04,559
he was in the Buddhist Republic and he was at

2821
03:03:04,559 --> 03:03:06,440
the inner German border many times, you know, like in

2822
03:03:06,479 --> 03:03:08,600
that era, and he's like it was like he's like

2823
03:03:08,600 --> 03:03:10,239
it was like like a real war. It's like this

2824
03:03:10,360 --> 03:03:12,040
it wasn't like so he's like he's like the he's

2825
03:03:12,079 --> 03:03:14,639
like the national evokes are me and these like Soviet runts,

2826
03:03:14,719 --> 03:03:17,399
they were like loafing around playing cars. Like these guys

2827
03:03:17,399 --> 03:03:19,239
were like treating it like they were at war. And

2828
03:03:19,280 --> 03:03:20,840
I mean so it's like the Buddhist fair and so

2829
03:03:21,000 --> 03:03:22,959
was like the US army. But it's there's not there's

2830
03:03:23,040 --> 03:03:24,760
not like a joke or something where it's you know

2831
03:03:24,840 --> 03:03:28,079
like it. I think people imagine almost like old cartoon

2832
03:03:28,120 --> 03:03:31,920
where there's like uh, where there's a there's like the

2833
03:03:31,959 --> 03:03:33,760
fox and he's like trying to like get the chickens.

2834
03:03:33,760 --> 03:03:35,280
Then there's like the sheep dog and they like they

2835
03:03:35,360 --> 03:03:38,120
had clock it. He's like big Carl like Sai, you know,

2836
03:03:38,159 --> 03:03:39,360
and then they kind of like pretend to go through

2837
03:03:39,360 --> 03:03:42,120
the motions. I mean, I'm sure there, I'm sure there

2838
03:03:42,120 --> 03:03:45,360
are like like hostle borders like that, like inner German border,

2839
03:03:45,399 --> 03:03:47,559
like that was not the case. I mean like you know,

2840
03:03:47,600 --> 03:03:51,719
I mean yeah, but it's so you know, but be

2841
03:03:51,920 --> 03:03:57,719
as it may. Like Reagan's Reagan's uh like like Reagan's

2842
03:03:57,760 --> 03:04:00,600
big kind of first like foreign policy coup in like

2843
03:04:00,639 --> 03:04:04,639
diplomatic terms, was was getting to the Soviets the table

2844
03:04:04,799 --> 03:04:07,120
uh on the I n F Treaty. And the way

2845
03:04:07,120 --> 03:04:10,639
he did it was he said like look like you know,

2846
03:04:10,760 --> 03:04:12,959
we'll we'll take the persons out and we'll take any

2847
03:04:13,120 --> 03:04:16,680
any comparable and like successor systems like off the table.

2848
03:04:16,760 --> 03:04:18,639
Like what basically he's like, we can either have a

2849
03:04:18,719 --> 03:04:22,079
nuclear free Europe or like we're gonna be shoving these

2850
03:04:22,079 --> 03:04:25,559
theater based weapons up your assi decapitation range like in perpetuity.

2851
03:04:29,559 --> 03:04:32,000
In the school of conventional diplomacy, like that's not the

2852
03:04:32,040 --> 03:04:35,760
right way to do things, because it's like very freeing Biery.

2853
03:04:36,200 --> 03:04:39,399
But you're talking about when when you're talking about strategic

2854
03:04:39,520 --> 03:04:42,799
nuclear conditions of parody, when you're talking about kind of

2855
03:04:42,799 --> 03:04:44,719
the strange you're talking about it, and we're talking about

2856
03:04:44,719 --> 03:04:47,079
the stakes like the Soviets had in this that actually

2857
03:04:47,120 --> 03:04:50,639
it was like a brilliant move and Reagan deserves like

2858
03:04:50,719 --> 03:04:55,799
mad credit for that. But there was a lot of

2859
03:04:55,879 --> 03:05:01,600
resistance within uh, the Soviet military establishment, especially from people

2860
03:05:01,600 --> 03:05:09,159
like Usanov to this happening. So obviously Gorbachev did you know,

2861
03:05:09,239 --> 03:05:14,520
like succeeded Sharon succeed Sharonenko and Romanov. UH one of

2862
03:05:14,559 --> 03:05:17,079
his first when of Goerrichov's first act of General secretary

2863
03:05:17,159 --> 03:05:19,600
was like sideline Romanov. He didn't he didn't like punish

2864
03:05:19,600 --> 03:05:21,639
the guy, but he basically like retired to him like

2865
03:05:21,719 --> 03:05:25,760
you know with with in in genteel kind of powerlessness. Okay, so,

2866
03:05:26,600 --> 03:05:29,399
but what Gorchov still had was uh and then and

2867
03:05:29,440 --> 03:05:33,680
then and then Usanov died almost immediately after okay Uznov

2868
03:05:33,760 --> 03:05:35,920
died to believe at the restart in nineteen eighty five.

2869
03:05:36,319 --> 03:05:38,520
It was late eighty four or eighty five. But within

2870
03:05:38,559 --> 03:05:42,079
the military itself, like Goorachov, had a tremendous amount of

2871
03:05:42,079 --> 03:05:46,319
opposition and they had clout, I mean in America, like

2872
03:05:46,360 --> 03:05:48,399
the military during the Cold War had a huge cloud,

2873
03:05:48,440 --> 03:05:50,239
but it was like nothing to bear to the Soviet Union,

2874
03:05:50,719 --> 03:05:54,200
like the defense establishment even now in the Russian Federation

2875
03:05:54,879 --> 03:05:57,680
they I'm not saying it's like cunative leader like the

2876
03:05:57,680 --> 03:05:59,399
way that like Neo Kon say that like it's some

2877
03:05:59,479 --> 03:06:02,319
bad thing. Is that the reality, like the trajector, and

2878
03:06:02,319 --> 03:06:05,680
I mean Russia also was like existential threats that they

2879
03:06:05,719 --> 03:06:08,639
faced as a country that most states don't. But like

2880
03:06:08,680 --> 03:06:12,719
the traject the course of policy is set by the

2881
03:06:12,760 --> 03:06:16,280
defense industry in a way that it's not in a

2882
03:06:16,280 --> 03:06:19,239
way that it's not you know in a state like

2883
03:06:19,239 --> 03:06:21,680
like in like America or like the UK, even during

2884
03:06:21,719 --> 03:06:25,600
the Cold War. But what changed that, what kind of

2885
03:06:25,639 --> 03:06:30,360
allowed Gorbachev to essentially purged any kind of hostile general

2886
03:06:30,399 --> 03:06:35,200
officers is really fascinating. And the immediate catalyst to that

2887
03:06:36,399 --> 03:06:40,360
was the was the flight of a kid, like literally

2888
03:06:40,399 --> 03:06:45,440
a kid named Matthias rusk Roost. He was a German kid,

2889
03:06:46,280 --> 03:06:49,000
and he took Assessma. He didn't have many flay hours.

2890
03:06:49,040 --> 03:06:51,360
He only had about fifty or sixty like like hours

2891
03:06:51,360 --> 03:06:56,319
of flight time. He rented the Assessna one seventy two P,

2892
03:06:56,600 --> 03:06:58,879
which is like, you know, like Assessna like prop plane, okay,

2893
03:06:59,000 --> 03:07:02,879
like it. And what he did was he ripped out

2894
03:07:03,200 --> 03:07:05,600
a bunch of the interior like including all but like

2895
03:07:05,639 --> 03:07:09,959
the pilot's seat, and he replaced him with auxiliary fuel tanks.

2896
03:07:10,600 --> 03:07:14,079
And what he did was, uh, he tested out kind

2897
03:07:14,079 --> 03:07:15,920
of his chops on long flights. He flew to the

2898
03:07:15,920 --> 03:07:19,920
Faroe Islands, he went to Iceland. Uh. From Iceland, he

2899
03:07:19,959 --> 03:07:24,840
flew to Bergen and uh, ultimately he did this because

2900
03:07:24,840 --> 03:07:27,280
his idea was to fly to the Soviet Union, which

2901
03:07:27,280 --> 03:07:31,120
seems totally insane and it was, but what he what

2902
03:07:31,200 --> 03:07:33,399
his note He he claimed he did it as like

2903
03:07:33,399 --> 03:07:35,680
an emissary of peace and to build like a proverbial

2904
03:07:35,719 --> 03:07:38,200
bridge between the Bunus Republic and Moscow, which is actually

2905
03:07:38,200 --> 03:07:42,440
pretty profound. I'll get to that, and and kind of

2906
03:07:42,440 --> 03:07:45,399
how this this was actually videotaped by a British tourist

2907
03:07:45,399 --> 03:07:47,760
who was on the ground in Moscow. That's why, like

2908
03:07:47,840 --> 03:07:49,639
everybody saw it. There was a little kid I remember

2909
03:07:49,639 --> 03:07:52,440
being this was like a very like awesome event, you know,

2910
03:07:52,520 --> 03:07:56,840
it was like it was wild. But Matthias roost he

2911
03:07:56,959 --> 03:08:00,280
uh he leaves from Helsinki, Finland. He had he reached

2912
03:08:00,319 --> 03:08:02,879
the Soviet airspace with the intention, with the intention to

2913
03:08:03,000 --> 03:08:08,319
reach Moscow. Now how did he do this? Okay, we're

2914
03:08:08,319 --> 03:08:11,000
talking about kind of a reverse hispanically, kind of like

2915
03:08:11,040 --> 03:08:15,360
reverse situation of what happened with KL double O seven, okay,

2916
03:08:15,360 --> 03:08:18,879
which was you know shot down as it was misidentified.

2917
03:08:22,440 --> 03:08:25,200
Rust was flying this little plant, this little prop plane

2918
03:08:25,280 --> 03:08:28,760
that looks at visual range almost exactly like a Yakol

2919
03:08:28,799 --> 03:08:31,879
of twelve, which it was used all over the Soviet

2920
03:08:31,959 --> 03:08:37,280
Union for various purposes, you know, like in the UH

2921
03:08:37,319 --> 03:08:39,719
in the Siberian wilderness. They used them because you know,

2922
03:08:39,799 --> 03:08:44,079
kind of like Alaska, like that's your basic uh means

2923
03:08:44,079 --> 03:08:46,719
of travel in there, like on the open step, like

2924
03:08:46,840 --> 03:08:50,159
surveyors and like naturalists would like use them, you know,

2925
03:08:50,879 --> 03:08:52,719
like party members that use them. That's kind of like

2926
03:08:52,760 --> 03:08:55,719
shuttle around. So like the sudden appearance of of like

2927
03:08:55,799 --> 03:08:58,840
the cest now like it wouldn't really throw alarms in

2928
03:08:58,959 --> 03:09:03,719
conventional in a conventional situation, but Moscow was known to

2929
03:09:03,799 --> 03:09:08,639
have like the toughest air defenses in the world. Like, uh,

2930
03:09:08,760 --> 03:09:13,120
it's telling like during Linebacker two, you know, when downtown

2931
03:09:13,399 --> 03:09:15,959
Hanoi was hit, uh, the kind of kind of final

2932
03:09:16,040 --> 03:09:22,079
massive strategic air operation against Hanoi, Like downtown Hanoi was

2933
03:09:22,120 --> 03:09:24,520
considered to be the most fortified city in the world,

2934
03:09:24,760 --> 03:09:26,920
like the hardest target in the world other than Moscow,

2935
03:09:27,280 --> 03:09:30,040
and like nothing in the Soviets very much cultivated this,

2936
03:09:30,440 --> 03:09:33,639
not just his image, but you know, Moscow was supposed

2937
03:09:33,680 --> 03:09:36,799
to be like the hardest of all targets. So the

2938
03:09:36,840 --> 03:09:40,680
fact that the fact that this kid could fly his

2939
03:09:40,760 --> 03:09:45,040
aircraft into Moscow and he crossed like several uh uh

2940
03:09:46,079 --> 03:09:55,280
designated like air defense you know, uh checkpoints and uh

2941
03:09:55,959 --> 03:09:59,920
apparently at first, uh there was a there was a

2942
03:10:00,079 --> 03:10:05,719
rookie ground control crew and uh when they sent the

2943
03:10:05,760 --> 03:10:09,239
signal out for a I f F you know, identification

2944
03:10:09,360 --> 03:10:13,680
friend or foe RUS like switched off his uh his

2945
03:10:13,760 --> 03:10:19,319
communication equipment and like went dark and not knowing what

2946
03:10:19,360 --> 03:10:21,600
the proper code was to send out like over the

2947
03:10:21,639 --> 03:10:23,879
airwaves for like what the status of the aircraft was,

2948
03:10:25,520 --> 03:10:27,840
these guys, these Russians on the ground like dropped the

2949
03:10:27,879 --> 03:10:31,440
code for like friendly instead of like unknown like possibly hostile.

2950
03:10:32,200 --> 03:10:34,479
Like so then like, uh, when he breached, like the

2951
03:10:34,520 --> 03:10:37,360
next kind of uh, you know, the the next kind

2952
03:10:37,399 --> 03:10:43,000
of a hurdle verbially speaking, you know, he he he'd

2953
03:10:43,000 --> 03:10:45,600
already been like identified as like as as like a

2954
03:10:45,639 --> 03:10:49,600
friendly aircraft, and then like as he as he approached

2955
03:10:49,600 --> 03:10:53,399
like Moscow, like Moscow Air Defense, Like it's just like

2956
03:10:53,520 --> 03:10:55,399
you know, they saw it look to be like a

2957
03:10:55,479 --> 03:10:57,520
yacko leb like on the on the gate at at

2958
03:10:57,559 --> 03:10:59,879
the at the gates of Moscow, Like they didn't even

2959
03:11:00,079 --> 03:11:02,000
twice about it because it's not it's not a warplane.

2960
03:11:02,159 --> 03:11:04,920
I think it's here in the first place. Obviously it's okay,

2961
03:11:05,479 --> 03:11:07,879
I mean, so it's it's this weird kind of like failure,

2962
03:11:08,440 --> 03:11:09,799
you know, Like I said, it's kind of like the

2963
03:11:09,840 --> 03:11:14,239
splendid reverse of of what happened with the kale F

2964
03:11:14,360 --> 03:11:18,200
like double O seven, but but at the same time

2965
03:11:18,280 --> 03:11:21,840
again too. Like in under normal kind of uh peace

2966
03:11:21,840 --> 03:11:25,360
time conditions, this wouldn't really be an issue. But this, uh,

2967
03:11:26,040 --> 03:11:28,479
this this had a horrible effect that I'm like the

2968
03:11:28,479 --> 03:11:32,920
prestige of the Soviet military. And what Gorba job did was,

2969
03:11:33,079 --> 03:11:36,440
uh it gave him essentially the mandate to clear out

2970
03:11:36,559 --> 03:11:39,280
basically like anybody in uniform that he did not like.

2971
03:11:39,319 --> 03:11:43,360
And that's exactly what he did. The like the Officer

2972
03:11:43,399 --> 03:11:45,920
corps of of of the the Soviet military was just

2973
03:11:45,920 --> 03:11:50,600
completely freaking like smashed Roust himself. He literally landed in

2974
03:11:50,639 --> 03:11:53,959
Red Square and the footage is crazy because like this

2975
03:11:54,000 --> 03:11:55,799
guy just like lands like and then he landed on

2976
03:11:55,840 --> 03:11:58,600
a bridge adjacent to Red Square in the middle of

2977
03:11:58,600 --> 03:12:01,239
the afternoon. He gets down here like waves and he says,

2978
03:12:01,239 --> 03:12:03,479
you know, like I'm German, you know, I'm from West Germany,

2979
03:12:03,479 --> 03:12:07,600
and people like, you know, like what the fuck? And

2980
03:12:07,680 --> 03:12:10,280
he said he landed. He said originally thought about landing

2981
03:12:10,280 --> 03:12:12,959
in the Kremlin, but he said that then he realized

2982
03:12:13,000 --> 03:12:15,520
if he did that, like he'd be arrested by KGB

2983
03:12:15,680 --> 03:12:19,079
or f S or g r U, and uh, you know,

2984
03:12:19,120 --> 03:12:21,479
the Kremlin just denied that like it happened, you know,

2985
03:12:21,559 --> 03:12:23,239
so He's like at least I mean he had he'd

2986
03:12:23,239 --> 03:12:25,000
have no idea of knowing that, you know, there'd be

2987
03:12:25,040 --> 03:12:27,719
this like this this this British tourist like a video

2988
03:12:27,799 --> 03:12:31,159
camera camp quorder. But at least it'd be like eyewitnesses

2989
03:12:31,200 --> 03:12:33,120
and be like, hey, I saw this dude land he

2990
03:12:33,239 --> 03:12:35,280
like this happened. You know, you can't just say it didn't.

2991
03:12:36,000 --> 03:12:41,840
But he roost was, uh, you know, like like two

2992
03:12:41,840 --> 03:12:43,440
hours later, like he was arrested.

2993
03:12:46,520 --> 03:12:48,840
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question, because there's something somebody

2994
03:12:48,879 --> 03:12:52,920
might ask this question. Yeah, everybody gets the idea that

2995
03:12:53,000 --> 03:12:56,639
the Soviet Union was this place that was actually absolutely

2996
03:12:56,680 --> 03:12:59,440
locked down. No one went in and out. And you

2997
03:12:59,600 --> 03:13:04,079
just said that immediately the first person who confronts him

2998
03:13:04,120 --> 03:13:07,799
as a British tourist, what was what was a tourism

2999
03:13:07,879 --> 03:13:10,159
situation as far as Soviet Union?

3000
03:13:10,239 --> 03:13:12,959
Speaker 3: Let I mean the Soviet Union. Actually I can't remember

3001
03:13:12,959 --> 03:13:15,719
the name of it, but until from the nineteen fifties

3002
03:13:15,799 --> 03:13:19,639
until literally nineteen ninety h the Kremlin published this magazine.

3003
03:13:20,280 --> 03:13:22,159
It was it was called something like Moscow Life. And

3004
03:13:22,200 --> 03:13:24,120
I used to see that the newsstands sometimes and like

3005
03:13:24,120 --> 03:13:25,680
flipped through it when I was like a little kid,

3006
03:13:25,920 --> 03:13:28,520
because and that was that was like the Kremlin. It was.

3007
03:13:28,520 --> 03:13:30,799
It was them like showcasing like why the Soviet Union

3008
03:13:30,879 --> 03:13:33,440
is good, but also like it was supposed to draw

3009
03:13:33,520 --> 03:13:37,040
like tourists, and there's a lot of stuff you couldn't

3010
03:13:37,079 --> 03:13:39,280
see and a lot of places you couldn't go, and

3011
03:13:39,319 --> 03:13:44,840
like you'd be followed, you know, uh in like at

3012
03:13:44,920 --> 03:13:48,360
least casually, you know, because like everybody was it was

3013
03:13:48,399 --> 03:13:50,520
like a foreign There was like an entire KGB direct

3014
03:13:50,520 --> 03:13:52,360
direct to like keep an eye on like foreign visitors.

3015
03:13:53,200 --> 03:13:54,840
But I mean, yeah, you could. You could visit the

3016
03:13:54,840 --> 03:13:57,079
Soviet Union as long as there was nothing it was

3017
03:13:57,120 --> 03:13:59,479
as long as there was nothing about your background that

3018
03:13:59,479 --> 03:14:03,319
that fled you. Like the real these were the Soviet

3019
03:14:03,360 --> 03:14:05,959
unions that was hard to leave. It wasn't hard to

3020
03:14:06,000 --> 03:14:08,959
go eastward like basically like throughout the Eastern Block. He

3021
03:14:09,000 --> 03:14:13,520
could basically go where if you wanted. But uh, you know,

3022
03:14:13,520 --> 03:14:15,840
a sist in the Soviet Union, he was not going

3023
03:14:15,879 --> 03:14:17,760
to be able to visit America. If he was not

3024
03:14:17,760 --> 03:14:20,200
gonna be able to visit the UK. He might be

3025
03:14:20,239 --> 03:14:22,079
able to visit the Buddhist Republic if he's like a

3026
03:14:22,079 --> 03:14:25,079
trusted person in related terms, but that was kind of

3027
03:14:25,079 --> 03:14:30,879
the issue, and it especially during the sixties. There was

3028
03:14:30,920 --> 03:14:34,520
a lot of guys I can remember, and this was

3029
03:14:34,600 --> 03:14:37,040
kind of dumb at the time, Like I really despised

3030
03:14:37,040 --> 03:14:39,639
Bill Clinton, but like Russia Limbaugh was. I remember when

3031
03:14:39,799 --> 03:14:41,799
Bill Clinton was running a ninety two was like he

3032
03:14:41,959 --> 03:14:44,639
visited the Soviet Union as a college student. It's like, okay,

3033
03:14:44,639 --> 03:14:46,559
but like a lot of guys did like that. Bark

3034
03:14:46,600 --> 03:14:48,120
cruise is big thing, like hey, if you want to,

3035
03:14:48,280 --> 03:14:50,479
you know, we're an open book. You know, we want

3036
03:14:50,520 --> 03:14:52,520
American college students to come see how good the Soviet

3037
03:14:52,639 --> 03:14:54,680
Union is. And they in turn set some of their

3038
03:14:54,680 --> 03:14:57,319
exchange students. But these guys were all dudes with like

3039
03:14:57,559 --> 03:14:59,799
party you know, their fathers were party men. There's no

3040
03:14:59,840 --> 03:15:01,479
way these guys are just gonna be like fuck you,

3041
03:15:01,559 --> 03:15:05,319
I'm defecting. Yeah, but like it, I mean if yeah,

3042
03:15:05,319 --> 03:15:07,120
Bill Clint's a total shit big But the point is

3043
03:15:07,159 --> 03:15:09,040
if you were if you were like going to Harvard

3044
03:15:09,120 --> 03:15:12,120
or like Yale or like Stanford and like nineteen sixty five,

3045
03:15:12,280 --> 03:15:14,079
there's like a good chance you would have like visited

3046
03:15:14,079 --> 03:15:20,120
the Soviet Union because like they cultivated that some of

3047
03:15:20,159 --> 03:15:22,719
that started to change. Uh, you know, kind of like

3048
03:15:22,799 --> 03:15:26,639
post aton like Asovie Unit started to look more and

3049
03:15:26,639 --> 03:15:29,239
more like scary to people, frankly, And I mean in

3050
03:15:29,319 --> 03:15:32,360
the I know a lot of guys who are like

3051
03:15:32,680 --> 03:15:34,280
five and ten years older than me, like when I

3052
03:15:34,280 --> 03:15:36,959
was a little kid who like visited East Germany and

3053
03:15:37,000 --> 03:15:39,920
then like, oh, it's crazy, but like nobody really wanted

3054
03:15:39,920 --> 03:15:42,559
to go to the Soviet Union frankly, Like I I mean,

3055
03:15:42,600 --> 03:15:45,159
whether that's like ignorant or not whatever, but you know,

3056
03:15:45,239 --> 03:15:48,040
by like nineteen eighty, you know, it was kind of

3057
03:15:48,079 --> 03:15:49,840
like why the you know that that place is fucked,

3058
03:15:49,840 --> 03:15:53,200
you know, like I don't want to go there, but uh,

3059
03:15:53,280 --> 03:15:54,760
and the like and again I think that's I think

3060
03:15:54,760 --> 03:15:56,440
that's kind of twisted. Frankly. I would have loved to

3061
03:15:56,440 --> 03:15:58,120
go to the Soviet Union because it would have been

3062
03:15:58,159 --> 03:16:00,680
pretty awesome, like not not cool to like live there,

3063
03:16:00,840 --> 03:16:03,120
but like to see you know, like it. But that

3064
03:16:03,239 --> 03:16:06,280
was kind of the deal and it and it's also

3065
03:16:08,799 --> 03:16:11,040
and and like depending on like the you know, but yeah,

3066
03:16:11,079 --> 03:16:14,319
the uh the uh it was basically uh, you know,

3067
03:16:14,360 --> 03:16:17,040
the Sovietnion like welcome tourism in its own kind of way,

3068
03:16:17,120 --> 03:16:19,600
and you know, but the fact is, you know, the

3069
03:16:19,719 --> 03:16:22,680
the kind of splendid appsentence of like Soviet citizens here

3070
03:16:22,680 --> 03:16:24,879
in America, like that was exactly why. But it was

3071
03:16:24,920 --> 03:16:26,959
like nobody had any money. It's like let's say, like

3072
03:16:27,120 --> 03:16:29,920
let's say I'm like Joe, like you know, I'm even

3073
03:16:30,000 --> 03:16:33,760
you know in uh in the USSR in nineteen nineteen eighty.

3074
03:16:33,959 --> 03:16:35,319
Like even if I was, even if I was like

3075
03:16:35,479 --> 03:16:38,280
educated at skills, I've got like no money. And even

3076
03:16:38,280 --> 03:16:40,479
if like somehow as a miracle I got you know,

3077
03:16:40,600 --> 03:16:43,840
like a visa from the Kremlin, like I'm gonna like

3078
03:16:43,879 --> 03:16:47,079
land in Chicago or Philly or like la, it just big, Hey,

3079
03:16:47,079 --> 03:16:49,399
I've got zero money. I don't really speak English, but

3080
03:16:49,440 --> 03:16:52,040
like give me a job. Like that's not especially in

3081
03:16:52,079 --> 03:16:54,040
them days too, like stuff just didn't work that way.

3082
03:16:54,159 --> 03:17:00,280
So yeah, but it it. But the Soviets too given

3083
03:17:00,280 --> 03:17:02,520
with even with some in the show the Americans, which

3084
03:17:02,520 --> 03:17:04,079
in some ways it's hokey, but in some ways it's

3085
03:17:04,079 --> 03:17:10,280
really dope. The guy and like his wife, who's yeah,

3086
03:17:10,280 --> 03:17:12,040
the lady who like stands in his wife, you know,

3087
03:17:12,159 --> 03:17:14,040
like they when they show like what he went through

3088
03:17:14,200 --> 03:17:17,280
like as like a kg B like deep Cover operative,

3089
03:17:17,760 --> 03:17:21,000
like they're basically making sure like he wouldn't defect, you know,

3090
03:17:21,079 --> 03:17:23,239
and like just become like enamored with the American way

3091
03:17:23,239 --> 03:17:26,760
of life. And that actually is like legit. Like the

3092
03:17:26,840 --> 03:17:29,799
guys the kgb AT in the g r U Lesser

3093
03:17:29,840 --> 03:17:32,719
Degree had a lot of uh sleep ragents on the ground,

3094
03:17:33,479 --> 03:17:36,440
like those people in that show, and they basically vetted

3095
03:17:36,479 --> 03:17:39,680
them to be like you're not gonna go crazy when

3096
03:17:40,120 --> 03:17:42,879
you know you realize you can like you know, you

3097
03:17:42,879 --> 03:17:44,719
can kind of like get stuff in America. You can't

3098
03:17:44,719 --> 03:17:46,920
hear because it's like not you're either like you're in

3099
03:17:46,959 --> 03:17:49,840
a seating and you and you're totally down for the party,

3100
03:17:50,360 --> 03:17:52,639
or you've just been kind of like you know, like

3101
03:17:52,799 --> 03:17:56,159
it's the kind of the you know, the kind of

3102
03:17:56,600 --> 03:17:58,840
fascination such things hold over you has kind of been

3103
03:17:58,879 --> 03:18:00,840
like bread out of you, were like smashed out of you.

3104
03:18:01,520 --> 03:18:04,680
But yeah, it's uh, it's do you.

3105
03:18:04,680 --> 03:18:06,600
Speaker 1: Ever wonder if they did you ever wonder if they

3106
03:18:06,680 --> 03:18:10,360
sent any of those over here like towards the end

3107
03:18:10,399 --> 03:18:13,040
of the so and then they're just still here and

3108
03:18:13,079 --> 03:18:15,040
they're just like they never went home and they're just

3109
03:18:15,719 --> 03:18:17,319
like that.

3110
03:18:17,920 --> 03:18:20,840
Speaker 3: This one guy, uh, the Soviet Union had one and

3111
03:18:20,959 --> 03:18:23,559
drop off speech during the able larger era. It was

3112
03:18:23,639 --> 03:18:25,360
kind of like it was kind of like the drop

3113
03:18:25,399 --> 03:18:28,920
up version of the secret speech. He addressed the polit

3114
03:18:28,959 --> 03:18:31,520
Burrow and he said like, look, he's like we're acting.

3115
03:18:31,520 --> 03:18:34,319
He's like in military terms, you know, in key theaters,

3116
03:18:34,360 --> 03:18:36,159
we're doing well. But he's like we were losing the

3117
03:18:36,159 --> 03:18:39,360
Cold War. You know. He's like, uh, you know, he's

3118
03:18:39,399 --> 03:18:41,799
like our textiles industry is like compared to Japan as

3119
03:18:41,799 --> 03:18:44,440
like primitive as hell. You know. He's like our agriculture.

3120
03:18:44,440 --> 03:18:49,600
He's like, we're literally dependent and America from America and

3121
03:18:50,040 --> 03:18:51,959
you know, you know, in a bad harvest. You know,

3122
03:18:52,000 --> 03:18:54,000
he's like we've got less than like a thousand you know,

3123
03:18:54,159 --> 03:18:57,440
like computers in America, like a computers a kid's toy.

3124
03:18:57,600 --> 03:19:03,079
He's just like going down the list. Okay. That so

3125
03:19:03,159 --> 03:19:04,879
the Soviet Union. One of the things they did was

3126
03:19:05,760 --> 03:19:08,000
they sent a lot of mathematicians and like guys with

3127
03:19:08,079 --> 03:19:12,200
formal logic knowledge or guys who'd like bet in Western Europe,

3128
03:19:12,239 --> 03:19:15,200
like in a formal capacity as like an operative. They

3129
03:19:15,280 --> 03:19:18,079
sent them to America to get jobs like in nascent

3130
03:19:18,239 --> 03:19:20,639
like it firms. And one of the guys who did that,

3131
03:19:22,200 --> 03:19:24,559
you know, he was like posing as like uh as

3132
03:19:24,639 --> 03:19:26,559
like at as like a West German of like Polish

3133
03:19:26,559 --> 03:19:28,959
dissent or something. He got a job with like this

3134
03:19:29,040 --> 03:19:31,200
it for him in New York in like nineteen eighty one,

3135
03:19:31,600 --> 03:19:33,639
and he'd do like dead drops and New York subway

3136
03:19:33,680 --> 03:19:36,319
and stuff. And then he said that like the last

3137
03:19:36,600 --> 03:19:39,319
basically after a while they just like stopped reporting, you know.

3138
03:19:39,440 --> 03:19:41,479
And then like he said that, like a guy came

3139
03:19:41,520 --> 03:19:44,159
to his apartment and just told him, like you know,

3140
03:19:44,280 --> 03:19:47,159
like he's like, I know what you're doing. And he's like, uh,

3141
03:19:47,840 --> 03:19:50,479
you know, he's like basically like you should probably commit

3142
03:19:50,559 --> 03:19:52,600
suicide or at some point like you're going to be killed,

3143
03:19:52,840 --> 03:19:55,239
you know, because you're like a loose end. So like

3144
03:19:55,280 --> 03:19:57,079
the guy said that, like he's like what should I do.

3145
03:19:57,120 --> 03:19:59,840
He's like, you thought about like mocking up like paperwork

3146
03:19:59,840 --> 03:20:01,760
to he like died of age or something. Is that's

3147
03:20:01,920 --> 03:20:04,239
like the age thing was huge. He thought about like

3148
03:20:04,280 --> 03:20:06,520
trying to like you know, he thought about like just

3149
03:20:06,559 --> 03:20:09,399
openly defecting, you know. But he's like that, he's like

3150
03:20:09,440 --> 03:20:10,840
he didn't have any con He's like, I'm a deep

3151
03:20:10,840 --> 03:20:12,559
cover agent. They're probably they're probably I mean, he's like

3152
03:20:12,559 --> 03:20:14,920
they're not gonna be happy about this. You know, it's like, oh, hey,

3153
03:20:14,920 --> 03:20:16,399
I've been spying on you to the has a decade,

3154
03:20:16,399 --> 03:20:18,520
but hey, can I defect because now like things went left.

3155
03:20:18,639 --> 03:20:21,719
But so he basically said, he's like, you know, like

3156
03:20:21,760 --> 03:20:23,239
by the time he had like a wife with like

3157
03:20:23,280 --> 03:20:25,120
no idea, like what real identity was. I mean, it's

3158
03:20:25,159 --> 03:20:27,159
kind of like a tragic story, but he said, he's

3159
03:20:27,200 --> 03:20:28,479
just like what what the fuck am I gonna do?

3160
03:20:28,559 --> 03:20:30,440
So like I just kept going to work and I

3161
03:20:30,440 --> 03:20:32,159
just kind of like kept waiting for it, and then

3162
03:20:32,159 --> 03:20:34,639
I turned the TV and like the Berlin walls coming down,

3163
03:20:35,159 --> 03:20:38,600
you know, and like so yeah, like this there was

3164
03:20:38,719 --> 03:20:40,719
there was a the guy got like a write off,

3165
03:20:40,760 --> 03:20:42,719
I think, and actually the New Yorker or something like

3166
03:20:42,760 --> 03:20:44,360
back in like the nineties. I'll see if I can

3167
03:20:44,399 --> 03:20:47,159
find it and like so you can like post a link,

3168
03:20:47,200 --> 03:20:50,440
but it's yeah there there there definitely were guys like that.

3169
03:20:50,559 --> 03:20:56,840
And in the reverse too, there was a Jens Carney. Uh,

3170
03:20:57,239 --> 03:20:59,360
he defect. He defected the other way to the d

3171
03:20:59,479 --> 03:21:03,280
d R and like nobody ever knew what happened to him,

3172
03:21:03,319 --> 03:21:06,239
Like he was presumed he defected, but he just like disappeared.

3173
03:21:07,079 --> 03:21:09,639
He was an Air Force guy. You know, he was

3174
03:21:10,000 --> 03:21:12,440
he was he was he had knowledge of like he

3175
03:21:12,520 --> 03:21:15,079
was he was, he was, he was a cryptographer. Okay,

3176
03:21:15,159 --> 03:21:17,799
but uh Jens Carney like if the wall comes down,

3177
03:21:17,879 --> 03:21:20,159
he hides out like pretending to be like a Dutchman

3178
03:21:20,280 --> 03:21:21,920
or something. I think that was or Dane. This cover

3179
03:21:21,959 --> 03:21:24,280
story is that he was a Dane. And then finally,

3180
03:21:24,479 --> 03:21:27,200
uh some like boon this fair or like US Army

3181
03:21:27,319 --> 03:21:29,239
like MP types like who the fuck is this guy?

3182
03:21:29,799 --> 03:21:31,000
You know, just when they were kind of like going

3183
03:21:31,040 --> 03:21:32,879
down the rolls like who's who actually is in the

3184
03:21:32,959 --> 03:21:34,840
d d R and the like that's this freaking that's

3185
03:21:34,840 --> 03:21:37,319
this guy like you know, a decade back just like

3186
03:21:37,719 --> 03:21:41,200
you know went over uh when went over the the

3187
03:21:41,239 --> 03:21:43,920
wall like the other way, you know, as as a

3188
03:21:43,959 --> 03:21:47,399
freaking defector. And and he he got he got Courtz Marshall.

3189
03:21:47,479 --> 03:21:49,920
He got jammed up for like seven years or something,

3190
03:21:49,959 --> 03:21:51,520
I mean, which I think is kind of fucked up.

3191
03:21:51,520 --> 03:21:53,959
I mean it's like once the coldor was over, unless

3192
03:21:53,959 --> 03:21:57,239
he killed somebody, unless he truly did something horrible like

3193
03:21:57,239 --> 03:21:59,520
like passing eyes only nuclear secrets, they should have just

3194
03:21:59,639 --> 03:22:02,760
let it go. But you know, the the Pentagon doesn't

3195
03:22:02,799 --> 03:22:04,680
seem inclined to like let things go like that, and

3196
03:22:04,719 --> 03:22:07,120
the guy wasn't uniform when he affected, So I mean

3197
03:22:07,159 --> 03:22:09,840
it's it's okay, but yeah, there are there are some

3198
03:22:09,959 --> 03:22:12,200
very weird stories about that. But yeah, I mean it

3199
03:22:12,200 --> 03:22:14,399
does beg the question like how many these guys were

3200
03:22:14,399 --> 03:22:16,280
They're like just nobody knew about and they just like

3201
03:22:16,360 --> 03:22:20,000
kept low key and like you know, went about their life. Yeah,

3202
03:22:20,040 --> 03:22:22,520
probably more than people think, because I mean I made

3203
03:22:22,520 --> 03:22:24,479
the point before and it guy named John Caller, he

3204
03:22:24,520 --> 03:22:27,559
wrote a really good history of the sas you know,

3205
03:22:27,600 --> 03:22:29,479
the kind of the one way that like the worst

3206
03:22:29,600 --> 03:22:33,920
up pack like consistently beat NATO was like with their espionage,

3207
03:22:34,319 --> 03:22:37,159
you know, like it wasn't even close like it. Uh,

3208
03:22:37,239 --> 03:22:40,959
and yeah, they they put a tremendous emphasis on human

3209
03:22:41,000 --> 03:22:44,000
intelligence in a way that you know, like we didn't.

3210
03:22:44,479 --> 03:22:46,680
So yeah, especially it was like more of these guys

3211
03:22:46,719 --> 03:22:49,239
than people think, you know, were thought. Yeah, it's a

3212
03:22:49,280 --> 03:22:56,639
fascinating topic. But Mattias Russ, but I mean what happened

3213
03:22:56,680 --> 03:23:00,719
became a him is rather tragic. He he was sent

3214
03:23:00,840 --> 03:23:02,719
up to four years at hard labor, but he was

3215
03:23:02,760 --> 03:23:04,920
actually never sent to a labor camp. He was housing

3216
03:23:05,000 --> 03:23:10,319
isolation in Moscow, and ultimately he was released and then

3217
03:23:10,440 --> 03:23:14,239
formally pardoned by Gramico when the I intermediately Nuclear Forces

3218
03:23:14,239 --> 03:23:16,479
Treaty was about to be signed as like a a

3219
03:23:16,559 --> 03:23:19,520
getric goodwill and he claimed he wasn't mistreated, and I

3220
03:23:19,559 --> 03:23:22,360
believe he wasn't beaten or anything, but there was something

3221
03:23:22,399 --> 03:23:24,399
it was like damaged about him. And he later went

3222
03:23:24,440 --> 03:23:27,639
to prison in Germany because he had a job in

3223
03:23:27,719 --> 03:23:29,639
some hospital and there was some girl that he had

3224
03:23:29,680 --> 03:23:32,120
like an unrequitted crush on, and he strayed just like

3225
03:23:32,200 --> 03:23:35,159
stabbed her. And this guy like no history of like violence,

3226
03:23:35,159 --> 03:23:36,920
I mean when I'm getting his in the Soviet Union

3227
03:23:36,959 --> 03:23:39,920
destroyed him like psychically, like whatever they did to him,

3228
03:23:40,079 --> 03:23:42,159
and he better believed that they didn't just treat him

3229
03:23:42,159 --> 03:23:47,399
like some kid pulling a prank. I mean, the then,

3230
03:23:48,639 --> 03:23:51,200
like I said, I'm not anti Russian at all or anything,

3231
03:23:51,239 --> 03:23:53,840
but there's there's a long history of guys who were

3232
03:23:54,319 --> 03:23:58,079
political prisoners of the Soviet Union and they somehow came

3233
03:23:58,120 --> 03:24:00,639
back like damaged or like not right, you know what

3234
03:24:00,639 --> 03:24:03,879
I mean. It's and you know there's I speculate the

3235
03:24:03,879 --> 03:24:06,959
same thing happened to him. And after that incident, apparently

3236
03:24:07,399 --> 03:24:10,079
he never got in trouble again, but he you know,

3237
03:24:10,159 --> 03:24:12,239
he seems to have had kind of like a sad life

3238
03:24:12,280 --> 03:24:14,639
after that. And you know, like I said, I as

3239
03:24:14,680 --> 03:24:17,559
a little kid and then later as somebody who spent

3240
03:24:17,879 --> 03:24:19,639
spends and spends a lot of time in the Cold War,

3241
03:24:20,479 --> 03:24:22,760
I I think roast in some ways. But he did

3242
03:24:22,760 --> 03:24:24,399
it was really a heroic I mean it was naive.

3243
03:24:24,719 --> 03:24:30,000
I mean, he's lucky he wasn't unceremoniously, you know, blown

3244
03:24:30,040 --> 03:24:33,719
out of the sky by a MiG driver or something.

3245
03:24:33,799 --> 03:24:37,520
But you know, I believe he was idealistic in the

3246
03:24:37,520 --> 03:24:39,879
way that kind of like last Cold War generation of

3247
03:24:39,920 --> 03:24:41,959
Germans was. And I think he really was like, look

3248
03:24:42,000 --> 03:24:43,719
like I don't I don't want to be a casually

3249
03:24:43,760 --> 03:24:47,719
a World War three as a counter value, you know,

3250
03:24:47,799 --> 03:24:51,319
as counter value ashes in the wind. And you know,

3251
03:24:51,360 --> 03:24:54,559
I I I've got love and respect to the Russian people,

3252
03:24:54,639 --> 03:24:57,239
and you know, like we should you know, we should,

3253
03:24:57,479 --> 03:24:59,680
we we should, you know, we should find a way

3254
03:24:59,680 --> 03:25:02,360
out of this paradigm that's going to destroy us. All

3255
03:25:02,399 --> 03:25:04,879
I found it like profound, as like an eleven twelve

3256
03:25:04,920 --> 03:25:06,360
year old kid, you know what I mean. Maybe it's

3257
03:25:06,360 --> 03:25:08,760
because I was a little kid. But I mean, Taine,

3258
03:25:08,799 --> 03:25:10,760
there was like something there and he wasn't just like

3259
03:25:10,799 --> 03:25:13,200
some crazy dude like I mean, he literally like learned

3260
03:25:13,200 --> 03:25:15,200
to fly like for this purpose, you know. I mean

3261
03:25:15,239 --> 03:25:17,840
it's he had it in mind that it could make it.

3262
03:25:18,120 --> 03:25:20,079
And frankly, I think it did. Man, you know like it,

3263
03:25:21,399 --> 03:25:22,840
you know, I guess, I mean you remember it was

3264
03:25:22,879 --> 03:25:26,920
a big deal. But the that but that, I mean

3265
03:25:26,959 --> 03:25:29,600
obviously the what it shows you too out like discrete

3266
03:25:29,639 --> 03:25:33,920
events that nobody is intending to have these reverberations. Like

3267
03:25:34,159 --> 03:25:38,360
literally like if Rust hadn't done that, I can easily see, uh,

3268
03:25:38,600 --> 03:25:41,040
I can easily see, Like you know, the USAOV loyalists

3269
03:25:41,040 --> 03:25:43,639
who were still in uniform is like saying, like, look

3270
03:25:43,719 --> 03:25:48,280
like Garbaschev is he's compromising our ability, you know, to

3271
03:25:48,399 --> 03:25:51,799
defend in depth. And you know, he's we cannot allow

3272
03:25:52,159 --> 03:25:54,479
the eye M treaty to be put the paper like

3273
03:25:54,559 --> 03:25:56,799
ten be put the paper and some kind of like

3274
03:25:57,799 --> 03:26:01,120
quasi military regime in the Soviet Union, you know, like

3275
03:26:01,360 --> 03:26:05,000
either like relegating gorbachoff to the role of cipher or

3276
03:26:05,079 --> 03:26:08,200
just like outright getting rid of him. I mean, it's

3277
03:26:08,200 --> 03:26:10,760
not like they weren't capable of that it like literally

3278
03:26:10,840 --> 03:26:15,319
like what Russ did that that that allowed Berbachov to

3279
03:26:14,840 --> 03:26:19,040
to decideline in sand bag like all of his enemies,

3280
03:26:20,079 --> 03:26:24,239
and I mean from then on at uh, it's it

3281
03:26:24,319 --> 03:26:26,719
really was his show until like you know that he

3282
03:26:26,840 --> 03:26:29,799
was until the challenge from Yelson was the emergent. But

3283
03:26:31,799 --> 03:26:34,799
that's what we should cover, uh next episode. And that

3284
03:26:34,799 --> 03:26:40,280
that's an incredibly complicated uh, like people who didn't weren't

3285
03:26:40,280 --> 03:26:42,959
alive then, but also even people who are pretty serious

3286
03:26:42,959 --> 03:26:47,440
students of the Soviet Union. The intrigues between Gorbachoff and

3287
03:26:47,520 --> 03:26:51,200
Yelts and and what Bush and Baker actually wanted, Like

3288
03:26:51,239 --> 03:26:53,600
Bush and Baker didn't want the Soviet Union to cease

3289
03:26:53,639 --> 03:26:58,520
to exist, like they wanted it to endure us. It's

3290
03:26:58,559 --> 03:27:01,360
kind of like is it kind of like federated a

3291
03:27:01,479 --> 03:27:04,879
like authoritary structure that it totally abolished, like the Party,

3292
03:27:05,479 --> 03:27:09,399
but uh, that was totally disarmed, and uh was kind

3293
03:27:09,399 --> 03:27:11,639
of like you know, accountable the United States as like

3294
03:27:11,719 --> 03:27:14,840
junior partner and like ruling the planet. It was basically

3295
03:27:14,879 --> 03:27:18,520
they wanted to like recreate like the New Dealer concept

3296
03:27:18,799 --> 03:27:21,479
for like how the world would be run and like

3297
03:27:21,520 --> 03:27:24,840
the tm D types who not only hated the Soviet

3298
03:27:24,920 --> 03:27:28,440
Union but literally wanted to see like torn apart, like

3299
03:27:28,520 --> 03:27:30,840
Yelton was their guy. And that's like what's key to

3300
03:27:30,959 --> 03:27:33,559
understanding this here, and that's why people have mixed feelings

3301
03:27:33,600 --> 03:27:37,719
about Yelson, I think. But it and then of course,

3302
03:27:37,799 --> 03:27:39,680
like the the kind of the kind of variable to

3303
03:27:39,680 --> 03:27:44,920
spoof things was that you know, all that the nationalities

3304
03:27:44,959 --> 03:27:48,719
like all went crazy, you know, and that's and and

3305
03:27:48,799 --> 03:27:51,319
that bears up too, like what the it goes It

3306
03:27:51,319 --> 03:27:53,920
shows you too, like when uh, you know, like what

3307
03:27:53,920 --> 03:27:56,319
what what what these fools they call the Chicken Kiev

3308
03:27:56,399 --> 03:27:58,799
speech where push forty one went to Ukraine is like

3309
03:27:58,840 --> 03:28:02,000
look like, don't like you're gonna be committing national suicide

3310
03:28:02,000 --> 03:28:04,079
if you decide you're gonna like fight the Russians, don't

3311
03:28:04,120 --> 03:28:07,360
do it, which of course is like absolutely true. That's

3312
03:28:07,399 --> 03:28:08,879
the idea of like you know, Boo was a pussy,

3313
03:28:09,040 --> 03:28:11,920
like how dear you like not back Ukraine in dependance

3314
03:28:12,120 --> 03:28:14,639
like what executive Ukrainians like exact of the Ukrainian has

3315
03:28:14,639 --> 03:28:16,520
gotten o a losing like a quarter million people, I'm

3316
03:28:16,600 --> 03:28:19,360
their country wrecked or like awesome things like ensuing from this.

3317
03:28:19,479 --> 03:28:21,639
I mean, it's not like whether you love hate or

3318
03:28:21,639 --> 03:28:25,120
a neutral in Ukraine. Like the idea that like Ukraine

3319
03:28:25,280 --> 03:28:28,120
like provoking a general war with Moscow was like this

3320
03:28:28,239 --> 03:28:30,399
good thing or like this like base thing, like it's

3321
03:28:30,520 --> 03:28:36,040
it's literally insane. But the uh, but I in my

3322
03:28:36,399 --> 03:28:43,159
before it became clear, like what America and it's in

3323
03:28:43,239 --> 03:28:46,520
geo affiliates and whatever you were doing in Ukraine. If

3324
03:28:46,520 --> 03:28:48,479
you're gonna tell, if you told me like twenty years ago,

3325
03:28:48,719 --> 03:28:50,879
like yeah, like you know, in twenty years like where

3326
03:28:50,920 --> 03:28:53,079
will where will like the Russian army like be engaged.

3327
03:28:53,079 --> 03:28:54,920
I'd be like in the Baltic, Like I see like

3328
03:28:54,959 --> 03:28:57,840
some kind of like really bloody you know, like asymmetrical

3329
03:28:58,079 --> 03:29:00,159
conflict of them like in the Baltic Like that That's

3330
03:29:00,159 --> 03:29:06,200
what I thought would happen. Honestly, I uh, it frankly

3331
03:29:06,239 --> 03:29:09,879
surprised me that like the Ukrainians were so incredibly rash.

3332
03:29:09,959 --> 03:29:16,159
But but that's that's the fact that Moss. That the

3333
03:29:16,200 --> 03:29:18,680
fact that Washington and uh kind of like the post

3334
03:29:18,719 --> 03:29:22,239
Reagan foreign policy team, they wanted both the Soviet Union

3335
03:29:22,239 --> 03:29:25,760
and Yugoslavia to endure, like you know, they this this

3336
03:29:25,760 --> 03:29:29,000
this kind of policy of you know, let's try and

3337
03:29:29,079 --> 03:29:32,440
detonate like every federated structure that exists, so then we

3338
03:29:32,440 --> 03:29:35,319
can kind of like finesse them into into like these

3339
03:29:35,159 --> 03:29:38,799
these like like fake client regimes. That's like very much

3340
03:29:38,840 --> 03:29:41,200
like a post Busch kind of thing. And like I'm

3341
03:29:41,200 --> 03:29:43,399
not saying Bush forty one had like these great ideas.

3342
03:29:43,559 --> 03:29:46,000
I think it was the last serious president, but uh,

3343
03:29:46,319 --> 03:29:48,920
I'm not saying like his KNNA, it's kind of his

3344
03:29:48,959 --> 03:29:50,680
kind of vision of like a neo like New Deal

3345
03:29:50,799 --> 03:29:52,559
was like some kind of like good thing, but there's

3346
03:29:52,559 --> 03:29:54,719
like an internal logic to it that like makes sense

3347
03:29:54,719 --> 03:29:56,920
and is like sustainable in a way that like the

3348
03:29:56,920 --> 03:30:02,000
competing perspective like was not and is not. But I

3349
03:30:02,079 --> 03:30:04,000
don't want to Uh I don't. I don't want to

3350
03:30:04,040 --> 03:30:06,440
deep dive into that yet because that that that's going

3351
03:30:06,479 --> 03:30:08,200
to take like an hour or an hour and a half.

3352
03:30:08,319 --> 03:30:11,680
So that's uh, that's basically I got for today. I

3353
03:30:11,680 --> 03:30:12,319
want to go.

3354
03:30:12,879 --> 03:30:13,559
Speaker 2: Let's let's talk.

3355
03:30:13,639 --> 03:30:16,040
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about the eighties because yeah,

3356
03:30:16,079 --> 03:30:19,159
of course I remember it, and it was a weird,

3357
03:30:19,479 --> 03:30:24,360
weird time it was. It was okay, so like New

3358
03:30:24,479 --> 03:30:29,200
York was one of the murder I mean, murder, murder, murder,

3359
03:30:29,440 --> 03:30:30,040
I assumed that.

3360
03:30:30,520 --> 03:30:32,639
Speaker 3: There were two thousand homicides a year like that. That's

3361
03:30:32,719 --> 03:30:33,479
wartime attrition.

3362
03:30:34,040 --> 03:30:37,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure Chicago. I'm sure southside of Chicago is

3363
03:30:37,680 --> 03:30:38,600
the same way at the time.

3364
03:30:39,840 --> 03:30:42,639
Speaker 3: And but yeah, yeah.

3365
03:30:42,200 --> 03:30:45,440
Speaker 1: But yet you had a great amount of abundance, You

3366
03:30:45,479 --> 03:30:47,280
had a lot of people getting rich, a lot of

3367
03:30:47,280 --> 03:30:50,280
people getting wealthy, and then you still had this like

3368
03:30:51,520 --> 03:30:57,000
nuclear shadow that was always overhead. It was it was

3369
03:30:57,040 --> 03:31:00,239
like a time when people were really a lot of

3370
03:31:00,239 --> 03:31:02,959
people were really having fun, but there was always this

3371
03:31:03,159 --> 03:31:04,959
cloud hanging over Well.

3372
03:31:04,959 --> 03:31:07,040
Speaker 3: I tink people understand either, and I tried to explain

3373
03:31:07,040 --> 03:31:10,520
it to people. My earliest memories would were being like

3374
03:31:10,559 --> 03:31:13,000
afraid of the Soviet Union, you know what I mean.

3375
03:31:13,000 --> 03:31:16,600
I lived I lived literally three miles from Glenview Naval

3376
03:31:16,680 --> 03:31:20,399
Air Station, which is like a priority counter worse target,

3377
03:31:20,959 --> 03:31:22,879
like we would have just there was no chance we

3378
03:31:22,920 --> 03:31:26,680
would have survived, you know. And it uh and I

3379
03:31:26,680 --> 03:31:29,079
mean especially because like my dad was like insinuated into

3380
03:31:29,120 --> 03:31:32,920
like you know, like the the policy planning establishment. I

3381
03:31:32,959 --> 03:31:35,000
mean I realized, like the Cold War was like talked

3382
03:31:35,000 --> 03:31:37,319
about in my house one than other people's, Like everybody

3383
03:31:37,440 --> 03:31:41,280
was like that. And like when those stupid emergency broadcasing

3384
03:31:41,319 --> 03:31:44,200
system tested come on, Like my mom would jump, and

3385
03:31:44,280 --> 03:31:47,239
like everybody would, you know, because it's like the people

3386
03:31:47,280 --> 03:31:49,360
don't they don't understand that. That's why I get pissed off.

3387
03:31:49,360 --> 03:31:51,520
And people talk about like the COVID garbage, even like

3388
03:31:51,520 --> 03:31:53,559
a nine to eleven, you know, it's like there's nothing

3389
03:31:53,600 --> 03:31:56,040
comparable like what would have been like a general warsaw pack,

3390
03:31:56,120 --> 03:32:00,159
like nuclear salt the United States like mad bullshit, like

3391
03:32:00,200 --> 03:32:03,200
Carl SIGs nuclear winners bullshit. But it would have changed

3392
03:32:03,239 --> 03:32:05,440
like life as everybody knows it. You know, there would

3393
03:32:05,440 --> 03:32:08,799
have been one hundred million people dead, Huge swaths of

3394
03:32:08,799 --> 03:32:11,239
the country would have been like unlivable. The survivors would

3395
03:32:11,280 --> 03:32:14,479
all migrated towards the equator, So you're basically gonna have

3396
03:32:14,600 --> 03:32:17,479
this Like it'd be kind of like a giant Wild

3397
03:32:17,520 --> 03:32:20,040
West with a poison environment that was like America, like

3398
03:32:20,079 --> 03:32:23,280
no shit, and like just the fact that it'd be

3399
03:32:23,440 --> 03:32:25,559
like again, it'd be like world transform. You can't kill

3400
03:32:25,639 --> 03:32:28,719
tens of millions of people within hours and not like

3401
03:32:28,799 --> 03:32:32,120
have everything change, you know, And the fact that this

3402
03:32:32,280 --> 03:32:35,360
was always a possibility, and especially as human decision makers

3403
03:32:35,360 --> 03:32:38,040
become increasingly sidelined, you know, it became clearly like this

3404
03:32:38,200 --> 03:32:41,159
this could happen without even anybody intending to, just because

3405
03:32:41,159 --> 03:32:43,399
the trajectory of variables is such that like it has

3406
03:32:43,440 --> 03:32:48,040
to happen according to you know, the indicators. Yeah, it was. Uh,

3407
03:32:48,680 --> 03:32:51,040
it was. It was like night and day. And I

3408
03:32:51,040 --> 03:32:52,719
I think that some of the some of them, like

3409
03:32:52,760 --> 03:32:55,479
the murder rate becoming totally lit for like a whole generation,

3410
03:32:55,920 --> 03:32:58,280
and people it's like acting kind of crazy, Like I

3411
03:32:58,280 --> 03:33:00,559
think part of that that. I think part of it

3412
03:33:00,600 --> 03:33:02,719
was people are like, well there might this might not

3413
03:33:02,799 --> 03:33:06,440
exist tomorrow, you know, so like why why not? I

3414
03:33:06,440 --> 03:33:08,520
mean it made people more ballsy definitely, But it was

3415
03:33:08,559 --> 03:33:14,559
also like, uh, you know, there's there was an aspect

3416
03:33:14,559 --> 03:33:16,760
of like, you know, the apocalypse is like imminent, so

3417
03:33:16,959 --> 03:33:20,840
like who gives a fuck? And uh the uh yeah

3418
03:33:20,879 --> 03:33:22,479
it was. It was weird, man, And like and the

3419
03:33:22,479 --> 03:33:25,639
immediate Aftermaen is weird, you know, like I.

3420
03:33:24,959 --> 03:33:26,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah then I was going to bring that up.

3421
03:33:26,559 --> 03:33:26,680
Speaker 3: Man.

3422
03:33:26,719 --> 03:33:30,159
Speaker 1: The nineties is like, so the Soviet Union falls apart

3423
03:33:30,200 --> 03:33:32,879
officially and then all of a sudden New York City

3424
03:33:32,920 --> 03:33:38,719
gets cleaned up. Yeah, like the home the crime rate drops,

3425
03:33:39,120 --> 03:33:43,159
homeless people are being bust out forty second Street is

3426
03:33:43,200 --> 03:33:47,000
brought up by Disney. Basically, it's like it's a real

3427
03:33:47,120 --> 03:33:49,479
weird correlation this shit like that happened.

3428
03:33:51,319 --> 03:33:53,040
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's one of the reason. I mean, it's

3429
03:33:53,040 --> 03:33:54,520
one the reason I'm very much like a Hey Gaelien,

3430
03:33:55,200 --> 03:33:56,920
It's all. That's also the reason why like the early

3431
03:33:57,000 --> 03:33:59,200
nineties were like anarchy, you know, and then so many

3432
03:33:59,200 --> 03:34:02,200
shit stabilized that just like became like normal again, like

3433
03:34:02,200 --> 03:34:05,040
to your point around like ninety six, like ninety five,

3434
03:34:05,120 --> 03:34:08,040
ninety six, but like that movie Kids, you know, because

3435
03:34:08,040 --> 03:34:10,319
I'm more I was born in seventy six, so I'm

3436
03:34:10,440 --> 03:34:12,319
you know, I'm like, I'm looking at nineties dude, more

3437
03:34:12,360 --> 03:34:13,799
than an eighties war. It's like I was, I grew

3438
03:34:13,879 --> 03:34:15,120
up in the eighties, but I was like a teen

3439
03:34:15,159 --> 03:34:17,440
in like the nineties, and like people like kids are

3440
03:34:17,440 --> 03:34:19,159
just like, oh, there's just like pornographic and grow So

3441
03:34:19,159 --> 03:34:21,239
I'm like, yeah, it's both those things. But it's also

3442
03:34:21,319 --> 03:34:23,879
like on the street in nineteen ninety three, that's like

3443
03:34:23,920 --> 03:34:26,639
what shit was like, and like anywhere you went, like

3444
03:34:26,680 --> 03:34:29,760
everybody had chip on his shoulder, like like every idiot

3445
03:34:29,760 --> 03:34:32,239
and his brother was like gangbanging for like no reason.

3446
03:34:32,360 --> 03:34:33,840
It's not like now we're just like hood dude to

3447
03:34:33,840 --> 03:34:35,479
do it because like they sell drugs. It's like every

3448
03:34:35,520 --> 03:34:38,399
idiot was like, yeah, I like wrap this like nonsense

3449
03:34:38,479 --> 03:34:41,079
gang and oh like I I got like a gun.

3450
03:34:41,159 --> 03:34:42,840
I packed with me for like no reason, just because

3451
03:34:42,840 --> 03:34:45,120
I'm like a fucked up asshole. Like that literally was

3452
03:34:45,120 --> 03:34:48,159
like the way shit was and like uh you know,

3453
03:34:49,120 --> 03:34:51,959
and like all there was like yeah, man, there's this

3454
03:34:52,360 --> 03:34:54,840
like like the races like fucking hated each other and

3455
03:34:54,959 --> 03:34:58,159
like it's you know, yeah man, and it's like so

3456
03:34:58,440 --> 03:35:00,879
like that movie. Yeah, it's like okay, maybe like Larry

3457
03:35:01,399 --> 03:35:03,000
Larry Clark, I think he is the dude who made

3458
03:35:03,000 --> 03:35:05,079
that movie. It's like maybe that dude is a pervert

3459
03:35:05,159 --> 03:35:07,200
and like a sick fuck but like what he was

3460
03:35:07,239 --> 03:35:10,000
like portraying was not like in his mind, like that

3461
03:35:10,040 --> 03:35:12,239
ship was real and I I was a teenager in

3462
03:35:12,319 --> 03:35:15,120
that epoch. It was like that, you know, like uh

3463
03:35:15,760 --> 03:35:19,559
and I mean this particularly made an impact on me,

3464
03:35:19,920 --> 03:35:23,600
like psychologically because it's like I you know, I'm i'm

3465
03:35:23,440 --> 03:35:26,079
I'm I'm I'm just fun people think. Man. It's by

3466
03:35:26,120 --> 03:35:27,799
the fact like I've had like you know, I had

3467
03:35:27,840 --> 03:35:29,840
like a heavy fucking drug prof and shit, I'm a

3468
03:35:29,879 --> 03:35:32,000
pretty like square, like fucking white dude. Man, Like I'm

3469
03:35:32,000 --> 03:35:35,159
not I'm not into I'm not into like fucking savage shit,

3470
03:35:35,760 --> 03:35:38,280
and like that stuff like bothered me like as a kid.

3471
03:35:38,319 --> 03:35:40,520
It's like it seemed like everybody lost the fucking mind,

3472
03:35:40,680 --> 03:35:45,120
like totally, you know, and like a yeah, but yeah, no,

3473
03:35:45,159 --> 03:35:47,440
that's that's I mean again, man, that's why there's something

3474
03:35:47,479 --> 03:35:50,120
too like zeitgeist, not just like the random aggregation of

3475
03:35:50,200 --> 03:35:53,879
like pop cultural like symbols and the people's kind of

3476
03:35:53,920 --> 03:35:57,600
like uh, you know, the discrete experiences and aggregate or

3477
03:35:57,680 --> 03:35:59,959
like you know, of of of of the youthful generation

3478
03:36:00,079 --> 03:36:02,319
in and kind of like what they associate with the

3479
03:36:02,360 --> 03:36:04,639
times that they're growing up in. Like it's a real thing.

3480
03:36:04,680 --> 03:36:07,040
It really is like a spirit of the age. And yeah,

3481
03:36:07,079 --> 03:36:09,719
like why I was like every haalking for like thirty years.

3482
03:36:09,719 --> 03:36:12,360
Everybody was going totally insane and then suddenly like the

3483
03:36:12,719 --> 03:36:16,559
nuclear specter like disappears, and then like you know, there's

3484
03:36:16,600 --> 03:36:18,879
like three years or four years of total chaos and

3485
03:36:18,879 --> 03:36:21,520
then like suddenly everything's like normally in you know. Yeah,

3486
03:36:21,639 --> 03:36:23,760
and like in forty second Street goes from being this

3487
03:36:24,040 --> 03:36:25,799
like looking like a nice circle of hell to be

3488
03:36:25,840 --> 03:36:28,559
in like Disneyland, like literally like yeah, you can't just

3489
03:36:28,600 --> 03:36:30,520
say like, oh, well, that's because people got tired of

3490
03:36:30,559 --> 03:36:34,319
crawing for something. It's like it's not how I'm not

3491
03:36:34,319 --> 03:36:36,120
saying you gotta believe in God. Okay, fine, you think

3492
03:36:36,159 --> 03:36:38,479
God out of the equation, But there is like some

3493
03:36:38,600 --> 03:36:40,840
kind of like invisible hand, like even if it's just

3494
03:36:40,879 --> 03:36:44,000
like human decisions and arrogate developing some kind of harmonious

3495
03:36:44,120 --> 03:36:47,159
like you know, in intent or like vector that you

3496
03:36:47,159 --> 03:36:49,680
can't tell me. There's just like random shit that happens

3497
03:36:49,680 --> 03:36:52,200
for no reason, you know, yeah, definitely.

3498
03:36:51,879 --> 03:36:56,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, man, plug whatever you got.

3499
03:36:56,760 --> 03:37:00,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, I'm still Uh. I dropped on my t

3500
03:37:00,920 --> 03:37:02,799
gram the other day. You can find me on t Gram.

3501
03:37:02,799 --> 03:37:05,600
I think people are like, no, why no, I'm I'm

3502
03:37:05,600 --> 03:37:07,559
trying to get stuff done in earnest and just so

3503
03:37:07,639 --> 03:37:09,319
I gonna like shoot for my channel and I didn't

3504
03:37:09,319 --> 03:37:14,200
get a capacity, but I I'm gonna swamp with like

3505
03:37:14,680 --> 03:37:17,399
content work and other stuff lately. But I promise that's

3506
03:37:17,399 --> 03:37:19,639
why I haven't been really active with stuff. But I

3507
03:37:19,719 --> 03:37:22,840
promise that it's changing. You can still find me on Twitter.

3508
03:37:23,000 --> 03:37:24,760
I don't know I could be nukelere at any time.

3509
03:37:24,840 --> 03:37:27,040
And also as we get into the summertime, I'm gonna

3510
03:37:27,040 --> 03:37:28,680
like disengage there and just kind of like fuck with

3511
03:37:28,719 --> 03:37:33,079
my own website and my channel. But you can find

3512
03:37:33,079 --> 03:37:37,680
me there for now at like real underscore number seven

3513
03:37:37,840 --> 03:37:41,079
each one as seven seven seven. My primary home is

3514
03:37:41,120 --> 03:37:46,239
substack real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com,

3515
03:37:46,680 --> 03:37:51,000
and uh my channel is Thomas TV on YouTube. We're

3516
03:37:51,000 --> 03:37:53,760
gonna saturate when I started uploading like fresh shit there

3517
03:37:54,239 --> 03:37:56,399
on like Odyssey and stuff. But for right now, like

3518
03:37:56,840 --> 03:37:59,920
if you join the channel on YouTube, like you'll be hipped,

3519
03:38:00,079 --> 03:38:02,680
would you know when like new stuff is uploaded there

3520
03:38:02,719 --> 03:38:05,559
and like when we kind of you know, migrate to

3521
03:38:05,600 --> 03:38:08,000
other places. But that's all I got, And thanks for

3522
03:38:08,040 --> 03:38:09,600
hosting me as always, this has been great.

3523
03:38:09,959 --> 03:38:11,639
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Thank you, Tom's.

3524
03:38:13,399 --> 03:38:15,799
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show.

3525
03:38:16,799 --> 03:38:19,079
We're almost done with this, aren't we, Thomas the Cold

3526
03:38:19,120 --> 03:38:19,719
War series?

3527
03:38:21,159 --> 03:38:25,319
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and yeah no, indeed, it's it's been quite

3528
03:38:25,319 --> 03:38:29,040
a journey and we've gotten really really positive feedback, which

3529
03:38:29,079 --> 03:38:34,360
is great, not you know, because I need things to

3530
03:38:34,680 --> 03:38:38,000
prop up my ego or something, but there's a you know, everybody,

3531
03:38:38,799 --> 03:38:42,680
at least even people who aren't particularly plugged into revisionist history,

3532
03:38:42,760 --> 03:38:44,280
you know, they have an interest in World War Two

3533
03:38:44,319 --> 03:38:49,799
because it's just you know, the kind of symbology of

3534
03:38:49,840 --> 03:38:52,040
it and kind of the narrative of it is all

3535
03:38:52,079 --> 03:38:55,799
around everybody. Like the Cold War, like people under people

3536
03:38:55,879 --> 03:39:00,760
under about forty they don't. I think that's change somewhat

3537
03:39:00,799 --> 03:39:02,959
like actually like Corneas, it sounds like one of the

3538
03:39:02,959 --> 03:39:08,680
Call of Duty games was like special Work. I never

3539
03:39:08,719 --> 03:39:10,399
played it, but I thought that was dope that some

3540
03:39:10,440 --> 03:39:13,360
of these some of these game developer types, uh you know,

3541
03:39:13,479 --> 03:39:15,680
they were they were trying to like plug people into

3542
03:39:16,200 --> 03:39:19,520
the history of of the era, like with with you know,

3543
03:39:19,559 --> 03:39:24,399
those kinds of sims. But you know, the if you

3544
03:39:24,399 --> 03:39:26,559
want to like literally, if you want to understand everything

3545
03:39:26,559 --> 03:39:28,680
that's happening in power political terms today, like you've got

3546
03:39:28,719 --> 03:39:31,440
to understand of the Cold War result, you know, And

3547
03:39:31,840 --> 03:39:34,639
it's I think it's particularly if you identify his right wing.

3548
03:39:34,760 --> 03:39:39,840
It's particularly impactful in terms of you know, uh, where

3549
03:39:39,840 --> 03:39:42,799
we are conceptually and before we went live, like you

3550
03:39:42,799 --> 03:39:46,280
know you're talking about you mentioned Paul Gotfreid. Well, yeah,

3551
03:39:46,280 --> 03:39:48,079
I mean it's hard. It's hard as hell to find now,

3552
03:39:48,600 --> 03:39:52,000
which I think is very deliberate. But Godfred gave a

3553
03:39:52,040 --> 03:39:55,639
talk I think it was at I think it was

3554
03:39:55,680 --> 03:39:58,440
at the h. L. Mancoln Club. I don't even know

3555
03:39:58,479 --> 03:40:01,440
if that's still a thing, but uh, and his talk

3556
03:40:01,559 --> 03:40:04,440
was called how the Left won the Cold War? And

3557
03:40:04,479 --> 03:40:08,600
it was really fascinating, and uh, you know, and and

3558
03:40:08,600 --> 03:40:11,479
and and again. That's why even if when it is,

3559
03:40:11,799 --> 03:40:16,479
even if one's not ideologically situated in the same kind

3560
03:40:16,479 --> 03:40:19,840
of camp that I you know, Visa via the Cold

3561
03:40:19,879 --> 03:40:22,920
War and Francis Yaki and and that kind of hy

3562
03:40:22,959 --> 03:40:26,799
Gaelian view of things, you know, it's it's fun of

3563
03:40:26,840 --> 03:40:29,319
me if you want to understand why blood is being

3564
03:40:29,360 --> 03:40:32,559
shed in in Ukraine and on the Russian frontier today,

3565
03:40:32,680 --> 03:40:35,239
like you've got to understand what what developed between ninety

3566
03:40:35,280 --> 03:40:38,280
forty nine nineteen eighty nine, particularly how it resolved. So

3567
03:40:38,360 --> 03:40:42,239
the fact we've gotten like mad feedback is I it

3568
03:40:42,319 --> 03:40:46,760
is very inspiring. I feel like we're actually doing something constructive. Yeah.

3569
03:40:46,760 --> 03:40:49,000
Speaker 1: I think we get more feedback on this one than

3570
03:40:49,000 --> 03:40:50,440
we did did a World War two.

3571
03:40:50,920 --> 03:40:54,959
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and that that I'm very excited about that. And yeah,

3572
03:40:55,120 --> 03:40:59,879
moving forward. Uh I uh, your idea to cover the

3573
03:41:00,040 --> 03:41:02,520
Spanish War is great and I'm really looking forward to

3574
03:41:02,520 --> 03:41:08,120
that too. But yeah, we can what I wanted to

3575
03:41:08,120 --> 03:41:10,399
get into today a bit. And forgive me if this

3576
03:41:10,479 --> 03:41:12,159
talk is a little bit it seems a little bit

3577
03:41:12,120 --> 03:41:16,920
scatter shut. There's a lot of discrete causes to what

3578
03:41:17,040 --> 03:41:20,840
caused what you know, caused the Inner German border to

3579
03:41:20,879 --> 03:41:23,840
literally just come apart, you know, November nine, nineteen eighty nine.

3580
03:41:24,879 --> 03:41:27,920
Some of those causes were laid you know, around nineteen

3581
03:41:27,920 --> 03:41:31,000
eighty eighty one when martial law is declared in Poland

3582
03:41:31,639 --> 03:41:35,559
and the Soviet response to that, or more probably the

3583
03:41:35,639 --> 03:41:38,959
lack of a Soviet response to that. Part of that

3584
03:41:39,000 --> 03:41:42,719
was kind of the bizarre nature of the d DR government.

3585
03:41:42,879 --> 03:41:46,959
The East German government was not at all organic it

3586
03:41:47,840 --> 03:41:51,000
you know, East Germany itself. It was literally a fake state.

3587
03:41:51,280 --> 03:41:53,319
Like there's no it's not even like the case of

3588
03:41:53,319 --> 03:41:56,000
like North Korea, where like Northern Korea is like is

3589
03:41:56,040 --> 03:41:59,000
culturally different in South Korea in some ways. You know,

3590
03:41:59,040 --> 03:42:02,360
they got a history of being you know, divided divided

3591
03:42:02,479 --> 03:42:05,719
kingdom like East Germany was literally the border was where

3592
03:42:05,719 --> 03:42:08,639
the Red Army just arbitrarily stopped, you know. I mean,

3593
03:42:08,719 --> 03:42:10,280
so it's you have this completely you have this like

3594
03:42:10,399 --> 03:42:14,479
rump state that you know isn't isn't precedent in terms

3595
03:42:14,479 --> 03:42:17,600
of it's in terms of the geograhic situated in this.

3596
03:42:18,280 --> 03:42:21,440
And people forget too that, you know, the guys who

3597
03:42:21,440 --> 03:42:25,959
became the d DR government. There was some genuine like

3598
03:42:26,040 --> 03:42:29,120
pipe hitterers like Eric Milk who literally wasted a cop

3599
03:42:29,159 --> 03:42:31,639
in Weimar and then he ran to this He ran

3600
03:42:31,719 --> 03:42:34,479
to Moscow because uh, you know he was a KPD

3601
03:42:34,639 --> 03:42:38,799
street fighter and uh then and and and the NKVD

3602
03:42:38,920 --> 03:42:42,559
trusted him, you know, uh, and uh you know, he

3603
03:42:42,639 --> 03:42:45,479
kind of became their man. Speaking of Spain, Eric Milk,

3604
03:42:45,479 --> 03:42:47,440
it kind of became their man in Spain. He was

3605
03:42:47,479 --> 03:42:50,399
like a commissar, you know, like fighting uh on the

3606
03:42:50,479 --> 03:42:55,719
Republican side. Guys like Eric Honecker, he somehow escaped execution

3607
03:42:55,959 --> 03:42:59,680
despite being uh you know, uh a pretty high level

3608
03:42:59,680 --> 03:43:05,079
functionary or cadre and the KPD organization. But he was

3609
03:43:05,120 --> 03:43:10,000
in prison, you know by uh for the duration of

3610
03:43:10,040 --> 03:43:14,120
the war. And some people think that he was a

3611
03:43:14,159 --> 03:43:16,399
double agent. And then he was like he'd fed intel

3612
03:43:16,479 --> 03:43:19,559
to to the Gestapo on the s D which I

3613
03:43:19,559 --> 03:43:22,799
don't know that it's possible. And then there was Walter Ubrick,

3614
03:43:22,840 --> 03:43:25,319
who was kind of this dour intellectual you know, kind

3615
03:43:25,319 --> 03:43:31,040
of humorless uh you know, cold cold hearted, uh, kind

3616
03:43:31,040 --> 03:43:36,600
of functionary, the most cliche or stereotypical sort, you know

3617
03:43:36,639 --> 03:43:38,360
he was. He was another guy who spent you know,

3618
03:43:38,600 --> 03:43:43,479
time in exile like after after the National Socialist Revolution.

3619
03:43:43,799 --> 03:43:46,360
It's like all these guys were there were this cadre

3620
03:43:46,440 --> 03:43:49,719
element that was at odds literally with their fatherland, like

3621
03:43:49,760 --> 03:43:52,120
whether whether in NI phase or not. The point is like,

3622
03:43:52,239 --> 03:43:54,200
these are the guys who will like get odds with

3623
03:43:54,600 --> 03:43:59,879
Germany like their own you know, cultural uh a little.

3624
03:44:01,520 --> 03:44:04,559
You know. They spent they spent the warriors either literally

3625
03:44:04,600 --> 03:44:08,399
like fighting with the Red Army or in exile in Moscow.

3626
03:44:08,799 --> 03:44:13,040
And then you know, when the dust settled in nineteen

3627
03:44:13,120 --> 03:44:17,360
forty five, they were literally just like insinuated into this role.

3628
03:44:17,440 --> 03:44:19,920
It's like okay, you know, like you're you're now like

3629
03:44:19,959 --> 03:44:23,159
the cadre of the German Democratic Republic. You know, these

3630
03:44:23,200 --> 03:44:25,159
and who people like, who the hell are these guys?

3631
03:44:25,200 --> 03:44:28,680
You know, it's not the only way they the only

3632
03:44:28,760 --> 03:44:34,040
the only mandate they had was uh you know, proceeded

3633
03:44:34,040 --> 03:44:40,959
from the barrel of Soviet guns, and UH, over time,

3634
03:44:41,840 --> 03:44:46,040
UH a kind of party state apparatus did develop in

3635
03:44:46,079 --> 03:44:49,600
the d DR, particularly like the National volks Army, which

3636
03:44:49,639 --> 03:44:52,319
was officer in NCO heavy compared to a NATO army,

3637
03:44:52,680 --> 03:44:54,399
And that was very deliberate because he had a bunch

3638
03:44:54,399 --> 03:44:58,959
of military career as who's you know, fortunes were inextrict,

3639
03:44:59,120 --> 03:45:03,479
like personal force, They're inextriguarly tethered to the survival and prosperity,

3640
03:45:03,520 --> 03:45:06,040
if we can call it that of the regime. You know,

3641
03:45:06,079 --> 03:45:10,040
in any any government that endures for decades, no matter

3642
03:45:10,040 --> 03:45:13,799
how kind of contrived or unpopular it is, you know,

3643
03:45:14,040 --> 03:45:16,360
if people are going to become just habituated to it,

3644
03:45:16,440 --> 03:45:19,159
and you know, the people's fortunes are going to become

3645
03:45:19,440 --> 03:45:21,639
bound up with it in various ways. So, I mean,

3646
03:45:21,719 --> 03:45:24,799
that did happen, but it was about the most like

3647
03:45:24,920 --> 03:45:27,639
artificial of artividual states, which is one of the things

3648
03:45:27,680 --> 03:45:30,760
one of the reasons I'm always kind of tongue in

3649
03:45:30,840 --> 03:45:34,239
cheeks saying, you know, like East Germany, he was best Germany.

3650
03:45:34,799 --> 03:45:37,040
I mean, you know, the d D are the reason

3651
03:45:37,120 --> 03:45:39,639
why they did the National Volks Army, you know, their

3652
03:45:39,719 --> 03:45:45,719
uniforms look like Rmack uniforms. They maintained some very into

3653
03:45:45,719 --> 03:45:48,680
the Prussian drill in the parade ground. You know, they

3654
03:45:49,079 --> 03:45:51,479
a lot of their their kind of mythology they drew

3655
03:45:51,559 --> 03:45:54,440
upon like Florian Geyer in the Peasants War. You know,

3656
03:45:54,520 --> 03:45:57,239
they they kept a lot of like you know, they

3657
03:45:57,280 --> 03:45:59,399
got a lot of the optics and kind of at

3658
03:45:59,479 --> 03:46:02,799
least super visial trappings the of Prussian statehood, which is

3659
03:46:02,840 --> 03:46:05,280
really the first kind of like modern welfare state. You know,

3660
03:46:05,319 --> 03:46:08,360
that's not they can't be denied. But the point is

3661
03:46:09,000 --> 03:46:10,559
the d d R is kind of cant They they're

3662
03:46:10,639 --> 03:46:13,719
kind of like hyper aware of like your tenuous claim

3663
03:46:14,200 --> 03:46:18,959
to the mantle of power and them kind of insinuating

3664
03:46:19,000 --> 03:46:23,159
themselves into this role ironically and and and somewhat perversely.

3665
03:46:23,319 --> 03:46:26,479
But if if you're a Gelien, that this makes perfect sense.

3666
03:46:26,879 --> 03:46:29,120
Them kind of cinema themselves as like the guardian of

3667
03:46:29,159 --> 03:46:32,479
like what remained of like you know, the like authentic

3668
03:46:32,520 --> 03:46:37,920
German culture. That's really interesting and that I think I

3669
03:46:37,959 --> 03:46:40,520
think people responded to that too in some basic way.

3670
03:46:40,600 --> 03:46:43,319
That's why, in like the decades after the Wall came down,

3671
03:46:44,200 --> 03:46:48,520
I think East Germans themselves like ostalgy. You know, it's

3672
03:46:48,520 --> 03:46:52,799
like a play on like nostalgia. You know, they that

3673
03:46:52,799 --> 03:46:55,840
that's that's you know, kind of a media term that's bandied,

3674
03:46:56,319 --> 03:46:58,040
you know about people who grew up in the East

3675
03:46:58,079 --> 03:47:00,520
to uh, you know, who's still pining for products you

3676
03:47:00,600 --> 03:47:02,600
can't find anymore and kind of like what life was

3677
03:47:03,959 --> 03:47:06,280
in that era. And you know, I made the point too,

3678
03:47:06,520 --> 03:47:09,879
like uh Proud Miracle, it's not an accident that she

3679
03:47:09,920 --> 03:47:13,879
came up through the d DR, you know. And interestingly,

3680
03:47:14,040 --> 03:47:17,479
is a law I see any any German politician you

3681
03:47:17,520 --> 03:47:21,479
know who uh who who who who is a citizen

3682
03:47:21,520 --> 03:47:23,799
of the d d R. It's literally against the law

3683
03:47:23,920 --> 03:47:26,719
to talk about their past, like in East Germany. So

3684
03:47:26,959 --> 03:47:29,639
it's it was a criminal offense. And when prow Miracle

3685
03:47:29,760 --> 03:47:32,760
was a chancellor to talk about her background, a lot

3686
03:47:32,760 --> 03:47:36,479
of people allege that she was a Stazi asset, which

3687
03:47:36,520 --> 03:47:39,760
is possible. She was a young pioneer, so I mean

3688
03:47:39,840 --> 03:47:42,639
she her folks were like Communist party people or so

3689
03:47:42,840 --> 03:47:45,600
that souls that there was no Communist party in the

3690
03:47:45,680 --> 03:47:49,040
DDR as the Socialist Unity Party. But it uh, but

3691
03:47:49,120 --> 03:47:51,159
the point being, I mean it wasn't she wasn't just

3692
03:47:51,360 --> 03:47:54,479
you know, she wasn't like an apolitical you know, like

3693
03:47:54,520 --> 03:47:59,079
her family was at least like regime loyal and so

3694
03:47:59,200 --> 03:48:05,239
far as already membership. But that miracles concord with with

3695
03:48:05,319 --> 03:48:11,360
mister Putin, you know, and uh, the the the gas

3696
03:48:11,399 --> 03:48:13,879
Prom deal which which led to the nord Stream pipeline,

3697
03:48:14,360 --> 03:48:17,159
all these things like oh to, like the Cold War, okay,

3698
03:48:17,200 --> 03:48:19,639
and like they oh to like you know, what the

3699
03:48:19,719 --> 03:48:23,000
d DR was and what the inner German border represented

3700
03:48:23,079 --> 03:48:26,600
in like power political and you know, in in his

3701
03:48:26,680 --> 03:48:30,200
story of graphical terms, you know, this stuff isn't just

3702
03:48:30,479 --> 03:48:32,959
you know, it's it's not it's not just like trivia

3703
03:48:33,000 --> 03:48:38,079
about you know, a strategic paradigm that's no longer extant.

3704
03:48:38,239 --> 03:48:42,719
But you know, last uh, last episode, we got into

3705
03:48:43,040 --> 03:48:45,879
you know, the kind of thaw, the Gorbachev thaw that

3706
03:48:46,959 --> 03:48:50,559
was made possible in large part by Matthias Roost's flight.

3707
03:48:51,840 --> 03:48:54,760
But before that, you know, we talked about, uh we

3708
03:48:54,920 --> 03:48:58,719
we talked about the NATO Dual Track uh strategy, which

3709
03:48:58,799 --> 03:49:05,079
ultimately led to the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty and why

3710
03:49:05,120 --> 03:49:10,040
this was a big deal. The Soviet Union and drop

3711
03:49:10,120 --> 03:49:14,639
off had been very aggressively trying to decopple you know,

3712
03:49:14,760 --> 03:49:17,920
Europe from the United States in terms of a strategic

3713
03:49:18,000 --> 03:49:24,879
doctrine and it's it's willingness to wage nuclear war against

3714
03:49:24,920 --> 03:49:28,440
Warsaw Pact. And the way they did this was, you know,

3715
03:49:28,479 --> 03:49:33,399
with the deployment of SS nineteen, S S twenty ICBM

3716
03:49:33,520 --> 03:49:41,239
and theater ballistic missile platforms and in Europe as as

3717
03:49:41,280 --> 03:49:43,680
the point of the Backfire Bomber, which was a maritime

3718
03:49:43,760 --> 03:49:48,799
nuclear bomber like superficially it had u add things in

3719
03:49:48,840 --> 03:49:51,959
common with the with the B one, but it was

3720
03:49:52,000 --> 03:49:58,280
purposed essentially to the nuke the Royal Navy and then

3721
03:49:58,520 --> 03:50:04,520
like open up the the Grainland Iceland UK Gap which

3722
03:50:04,879 --> 03:50:07,360
the Soviet Navy had to shoot in order to break

3723
03:50:07,399 --> 03:50:11,280
out of you know, uh the North Atlantic into the

3724
03:50:11,280 --> 03:50:14,680
open Ocean in order to you know, effectively wage war

3725
03:50:14,719 --> 03:50:23,559
against the United States. But the uh the when uh

3726
03:50:24,319 --> 03:50:28,680
I made the point that Reagan's uh dual track strategy,

3727
03:50:28,719 --> 03:50:34,479
which was the Reagan administration offered to remove all theater

3728
03:50:34,840 --> 03:50:41,559
nuclear weapons platforms from Europe, you know, ground launched cruise

3729
03:50:41,559 --> 03:50:45,440
missiles as well as intermediate range ballistic missiles like the

3730
03:50:45,479 --> 03:50:49,840
person too. If the Soviets would have bided the same, Okay,

3731
03:50:50,760 --> 03:50:52,639
if the Soviets wouldn't have buid the same we'll bets

3732
03:50:52,639 --> 03:50:55,680
were off. UH, NATO was going to continue to deploy

3733
03:50:56,079 --> 03:51:02,920
theater nuclear forces. Now arguably this led the Soviets to

3734
03:51:03,159 --> 03:51:06,879
UH to say, well, we've got nothing to lose, and

3735
03:51:06,920 --> 03:51:09,239
that's why they went all in Afghanistan. You can even

3736
03:51:09,280 --> 03:51:10,879
go a step further and say, like, as we got

3737
03:51:10,920 --> 03:51:16,079
into that, this caused terrible anxieties about the possibility of

3738
03:51:16,079 --> 03:51:23,559
a decapitation strike on you know, on on Moscow and UH.

3739
03:51:23,639 --> 03:51:26,479
You know, we talked about how the real impetus for

3740
03:51:26,639 --> 03:51:32,760
intervention in Afghanistan was was a proximity to Kazakhstan, which

3741
03:51:32,840 --> 03:51:36,200
was as important to the Soviet Command, nuclear command and

3742
03:51:36,239 --> 03:51:40,079
control as was Moscow. But as it may, what was

3743
03:51:40,120 --> 03:51:42,479
going on during this era as kind of the Soviet

3744
03:51:42,559 --> 03:51:47,959
Union was hardening its stance in power political terms, there

3745
03:51:48,040 --> 03:51:52,799
was odd things happening between the two Germanys. We talked

3746
03:51:52,840 --> 03:51:56,360
about the hell Sinki Accords, you know that was UH,

3747
03:51:57,040 --> 03:52:02,399
when the Warsaw Pact, you know it all the signatories

3748
03:52:02,440 --> 03:52:05,680
declared that, you know, they they'd honored democratic processes, you know,

3749
03:52:05,719 --> 03:52:08,079
people would not be discriminated against based on you know,

3750
03:52:08,120 --> 03:52:14,040
political affiliation sect nationality. I mean basically it was uh,

3751
03:52:14,840 --> 03:52:19,360
basically the Helsinki Accordus could not coext this with the

3752
03:52:19,399 --> 03:52:23,879
Bread doctrine, which is what the Soviet Union relied upon

3753
03:52:23,959 --> 03:52:27,280
with their intervention in Czechoslovakia on sixty eight. You know,

3754
03:52:28,520 --> 03:52:30,479
this caused a problem because on the one hand, the

3755
03:52:30,479 --> 03:52:32,799
wars Up Pact was desperate for, you know, like a

3756
03:52:32,879 --> 03:52:36,079
legitimacy and credibility in the world stage. On the other hand,

3757
03:52:36,479 --> 03:52:40,440
the only thing holding the structure together, particularly after the

3758
03:52:40,440 --> 03:52:44,959
sound of Soviets split was, uh, what was armed force.

3759
03:52:45,360 --> 03:52:47,319
You know. The only thing making the SOVIETI as superpower

3760
03:52:47,399 --> 03:52:49,200
was the fact that it had, you know, the world's

3761
03:52:49,239 --> 03:52:56,959
mightiest military apparatus. The only thing holding a strategic alliance together,

3762
03:52:57,040 --> 03:53:01,280
which it depended upon, you know, in order to the

3763
03:53:01,440 --> 03:53:04,680
achieve any strategic depth, you know, was the fact that

3764
03:53:05,040 --> 03:53:07,840
if any if any of the satellite states tried to

3765
03:53:07,840 --> 03:53:10,799
throw off the shackles of of of one party rule,

3766
03:53:11,360 --> 03:53:14,040
you know, they the Soviet Union would directly intervene in

3767
03:53:14,120 --> 03:53:17,559
order to defend socialism, you know, or defend the development

3768
03:53:17,600 --> 03:53:22,559
and survival of socialism within its sphere of influence. So

3769
03:53:23,200 --> 03:53:25,600
this was probably this was this was very much tested

3770
03:53:25,959 --> 03:53:29,600
in nineteen eighty eighty one, that's when Poland came under

3771
03:53:29,639 --> 03:53:36,159
martial law. Poland was an interesting case because the uh

3772
03:53:37,120 --> 03:53:40,399
owing Uh. One of the reasons why Carter courted Brazinski,

3773
03:53:40,760 --> 03:53:42,959
you know, as a key part of his ZIGNA. Brzinski

3774
03:53:43,159 --> 03:53:47,200
is a key figure in his national security staff was

3775
03:53:47,399 --> 03:53:52,440
h like Poland seemed to be the kind of the

3776
03:53:52,559 --> 03:53:56,079
kind of it seem it seemed to kind of like

3777
03:53:56,360 --> 03:54:01,319
the natural place to try and you know, create a

3778
03:54:01,319 --> 03:54:08,719
wedge and warsaw pact. You know, if us it was

3779
03:54:08,719 --> 03:54:11,239
inorganic to the d d R. It was totally alien

3780
03:54:11,280 --> 03:54:14,280
to Poland. You know, Poland was basically it was it

3781
03:54:14,319 --> 03:54:16,440
was still a largely in the amand of the war.

3782
03:54:16,479 --> 03:54:18,399
It was still like a largely backwards and not saying

3783
03:54:18,399 --> 03:54:20,559
that the punitive or mean, but it was it was.

3784
03:54:20,600 --> 03:54:26,680
It was still largely backwards country people westach Catholic, Uh.

3785
03:54:26,879 --> 03:54:29,000
They had a strong hatred of the Russians, you know,

3786
03:54:29,479 --> 03:54:37,440
like ethnicran So Communism really kind of had to succeed

3787
03:54:37,520 --> 03:54:40,319
in Poland, Okay, if if the if for for any

3788
03:54:40,360 --> 03:54:43,559
kind of legitimacy to improve, not just to the regime

3789
03:54:43,600 --> 03:54:46,000
is situated there, you know, with to a Warsaw Pact

3790
03:54:46,000 --> 03:54:52,319
generally and uh towards that end, Poland was the recipient

3791
03:54:52,360 --> 03:54:56,600
of a lot of subsidies, which, in turn they used

3792
03:54:56,600 --> 03:54:59,639
to build up infrastructure, including one of the what was

3793
03:54:59,639 --> 03:55:01,760
that that, I'm like one of the world's most advanced

3794
03:55:01,920 --> 03:55:07,239
uh like like like like commuter rail stations like it

3795
03:55:07,399 --> 03:55:10,520
like the like Warsaw Central station. Like it's still like

3796
03:55:10,600 --> 03:55:12,760
it's something like an architenttional marvel. And at the time

3797
03:55:12,799 --> 03:55:15,479
it was like, wow, this is this is this is remarkable.

3798
03:55:15,520 --> 03:55:19,000
But that that you like, like those kinds of public

3799
03:55:19,000 --> 03:55:21,559
works projects or something like the communists like seem to

3800
03:55:21,600 --> 03:55:24,239
do pretty well hit but he as it may. Like

3801
03:55:24,319 --> 03:55:26,200
one of the things the polls did with these subsidies

3802
03:55:26,280 --> 03:55:29,040
is they they set about to create like a fairly

3803
03:55:29,040 --> 03:55:33,239
diversified like manufacturing sector. And you know, the idea was

3804
03:55:33,280 --> 03:55:35,559
that you know, they could build up equity and you know,

3805
03:55:35,639 --> 03:55:38,600
create something of a like an export economy however like

3806
03:55:38,680 --> 03:55:42,959
regionally limited you know, and and and you know and

3807
03:55:42,959 --> 03:55:45,879
and then uh you know, and then become eligible for

3808
03:55:46,079 --> 03:55:48,479
you know, like long term developmental loans and things, and

3809
03:55:48,520 --> 03:55:50,559
you know basically become like a some kind of like

3810
03:55:50,600 --> 03:55:52,879
modern country or at least I got a par with

3811
03:55:52,920 --> 03:55:55,479
like easy Germany, you know, if not you know, if

3812
03:55:55,520 --> 03:56:01,200
not the West. But this obviously didn't work, and uh,

3813
03:56:01,360 --> 03:56:04,159
you know, the Poles found like half the Polish GDP

3814
03:56:04,399 --> 03:56:07,840
as of seventy nine. I think was was was was

3815
03:56:07,879 --> 03:56:13,719
debt and uh the Poles, Uh, they were dealing with

3816
03:56:13,760 --> 03:56:17,159
genuine shortages things like things like that there was raffic

3817
03:56:17,200 --> 03:56:19,559
cards handed out for like meat and eggs and sugar,

3818
03:56:19,920 --> 03:56:22,879
like nobody could get tobacco like cigarettes and actually were

3819
03:56:22,920 --> 03:56:25,000
being used as currency by nineteen eighty one. I mean

3820
03:56:25,040 --> 03:56:28,680
this is like prison like it's literally insane. And one

3821
03:56:28,719 --> 03:56:31,520
of the big one of the big problems in terms

3822
03:56:31,600 --> 03:56:37,440
of rendering the legitimacy crisis was, uh Polish Polish workers

3823
03:56:37,680 --> 03:56:40,920
were being saddled with you know, like increasing demands in

3824
03:56:41,000 --> 03:56:44,000
order to you know, shore up again to look like

3825
03:56:44,440 --> 03:56:48,000
Poland was still gambling on this idea that you know,

3826
03:56:48,040 --> 03:56:51,159
they could they could create like a viable manufacturing sector

3827
03:56:51,200 --> 03:56:53,959
like fit for export. It's like Polish workers are being

3828
03:56:53,959 --> 03:56:56,200
sad to look like more and more and more hours,

3829
03:56:56,639 --> 03:56:59,280
you know, for like diminishing returns, and they couldn't even

3830
03:56:59,280 --> 03:57:01,479
get like the bay is to consumer necessity is a life,

3831
03:57:01,520 --> 03:57:04,959
you know, like cigarettes, like sugar. I mean in a

3832
03:57:05,040 --> 03:57:08,479
socialist state. I mean, this is this is preposterous. You know.

3833
03:57:09,239 --> 03:57:13,719
So that was basically the impetus for solidarity. And you

3834
03:57:13,719 --> 03:57:16,040
can't you can't take a labor union in a communist

3835
03:57:16,079 --> 03:57:19,600
state where like, hey, we're you know, we are the

3836
03:57:19,639 --> 03:57:23,600
proletariat and you know we're not we're having our surplus

3837
03:57:23,639 --> 03:57:25,639
labor literally robbed of us. You can't like take those

3838
03:57:25,680 --> 03:57:27,920
people out and shoot them, okay. I mean, like you

3839
03:57:27,959 --> 03:57:29,879
could like a bunch of Catholics, or a bunch of

3840
03:57:30,280 --> 03:57:32,840
a bunch of Fascists, or a bunch of you know,

3841
03:57:32,920 --> 03:57:35,520
people protesting the party. I mean, so this, this is

3842
03:57:35,559 --> 03:57:39,479
a very tricky situation. The way it was resolved in

3843
03:57:39,520 --> 03:57:47,719
Poland was Jerald Zelski Uh became a general secretary and

3844
03:57:47,799 --> 03:57:50,159
he was a tragic figure. You know. He there's this

3845
03:57:50,239 --> 03:57:52,840
kind of visage of him as a sinister guy. He

3846
03:57:52,959 --> 03:57:57,399
was just you know, Polish military officer. He always wore

3847
03:57:57,440 --> 03:58:00,879
these dark sunglasses. The reason why is because he was

3848
03:58:00,879 --> 03:58:03,120
a lesser of lesser noble birth than when he was

3849
03:58:03,159 --> 03:58:06,840
a teenager when Poland was invaded by the Red Army,

3850
03:58:06,959 --> 03:58:09,680
he his whole family I sent to a gulag, and

3851
03:58:10,120 --> 03:58:13,239
he became his eyes were destroyed by the glare of

3852
03:58:13,360 --> 03:58:15,719
the sun off the snow in the labor camp he

3853
03:58:15,840 --> 03:58:18,440
was in, so like he couldn't stand light, so like

3854
03:58:18,479 --> 03:58:21,520
he'd he'd were sunglasses all the time. And I mean

3855
03:58:21,559 --> 03:58:23,520
it tells you something too, like this guy was literally

3856
03:58:23,600 --> 03:58:26,360
a kid who was like destroyed by the gulegg system,

3857
03:58:26,479 --> 03:58:29,200
like physically in some way and mentally, like he became

3858
03:58:29,280 --> 03:58:32,399
this kind of like this kind of military talent in

3859
03:58:32,440 --> 03:58:35,239
these blocked like it there's something kind of like Shakespeare

3860
03:58:35,319 --> 03:58:38,200
about that. But it's also it tells you something about

3861
03:58:38,239 --> 03:58:42,360
the way like Poland was brutalized by by Communism. It's like,

3862
03:58:42,520 --> 03:58:45,639
you know, there there there was no there weren't even

3863
03:58:45,760 --> 03:58:47,959
there weren't there wasn't even the equivalent of of of

3864
03:58:48,000 --> 03:58:50,879
like the d d Ar Cadre in Poland. You know,

3865
03:58:50,920 --> 03:58:54,559
for them to kind of insinuate us as the ruling cast,

3866
03:58:55,000 --> 03:58:57,360
you know, they took this guy who was literally, you know,

3867
03:58:57,440 --> 03:59:01,760
somebody destroyed by the gulag, you know, like and yeah,

3868
03:59:01,760 --> 03:59:07,280
I just find it fascinating. But so Poland stands alone

3869
03:59:08,040 --> 03:59:10,120
is the only it was the only it was the

3870
03:59:10,159 --> 03:59:12,920
only East plex satellite state that was under the direct

3871
03:59:12,959 --> 03:59:15,040
rule of a military man and it was literally under

3872
03:59:15,040 --> 03:59:22,280
martial law. Now, as this developed first under Carter then

3873
03:59:22,319 --> 03:59:26,760
under Reagan's first term, it raised an interesting question because

3874
03:59:26,760 --> 03:59:29,840
according to the if if Poland went into open a revolt,

3875
03:59:30,639 --> 03:59:34,600
the president of the President of Doctrine dictated that, you know,

3876
03:59:34,760 --> 03:59:37,559
the Soviet army would invade, you know, to to preserve

3877
03:59:37,639 --> 03:59:42,399
the regime and uh and drop off. You can tell

3878
03:59:42,440 --> 03:59:44,399
it was react with anxiety that this is what was

3879
03:59:44,440 --> 03:59:49,159
going to happen. That's something that's clear from you know,

3880
03:59:49,200 --> 03:59:53,879
the notes of uh you know meetings, uh, not just

3881
03:59:54,079 --> 03:59:56,239
the Presidium, but of you know, like the kind of

3882
03:59:56,280 --> 03:59:59,840
inner inner polt Burrow, like the facto, like you know,

3883
03:59:59,840 --> 04:00:04,399
the the cadre that made the decision to a celt Afghanistan,

3884
04:00:04,520 --> 04:00:08,440
like we talked about the other week. But simultaneous to

3885
04:00:08,479 --> 04:00:14,159
this going on, East and West Germany were uh engaged

3886
04:00:14,159 --> 04:00:19,639
in this kind of delicate minuet of UH of reproach

3887
04:00:19,959 --> 04:00:25,200
and Eric Honecker, uh, you know, stal War as he

3888
04:00:25,440 --> 04:00:30,959
was as as as a Marxist Leninist, he'd always pined for, uh,

3889
04:00:31,440 --> 04:00:34,559
you know, for Eastern Men to be recognized as like

3890
04:00:34,639 --> 04:00:39,319
the truly sovereign state, you know, with with with a

3891
04:00:39,319 --> 04:00:44,760
somewhat independent foreign policy. And it was bizarre because on

3892
04:00:44,799 --> 04:00:46,840
the one hand, on the one hand, the d d

3893
04:00:47,040 --> 04:00:50,239
R they reviewed UH as kind of too Stalinist, like

3894
04:00:50,239 --> 04:00:52,520
even prior to Gorbert shaw Off, but they were simultaneously

3895
04:00:52,559 --> 04:00:55,159
viewed as being too cozy and friendly with West Germany.

3896
04:00:55,680 --> 04:01:01,200
I mean, there's there's something bizarre about that. But in

3897
04:01:01,280 --> 04:01:07,559
nineteen eighty seven, Honaker finally got permission for a state

3898
04:01:07,680 --> 04:01:10,479
visit to the bundis Republic. And he've been trying to

3899
04:01:10,479 --> 04:01:15,000
accomplish this. Uh, he'd been trying to accomplish this UH

3900
04:01:15,159 --> 04:01:22,079
for for for for like a decade, and UH initially

3901
04:01:22,159 --> 04:01:25,559
in UH in nineteen eighty four, when he first put

3902
04:01:25,600 --> 04:01:29,600
it to UH, the Soviet Poloit Burrow and the Foreign

3903
04:01:29,639 --> 04:01:34,600
Ministry Sharon Anko said, you know, make a mistake. You

3904
04:01:34,600 --> 04:01:38,280
know that this is not a visit aimed at approachment. UH,

3905
04:01:38,719 --> 04:01:42,200
it's to established lines of demarcation, which is like a

3906
04:01:42,239 --> 04:01:44,959
typically like Soviet answer. It's like both like obnoxious and

3907
04:01:45,000 --> 04:01:47,440
obtuson hostile, but also it doesn't really make any sense

3908
04:01:48,120 --> 04:01:53,040
and like uh, but uh, so there's this weird arrangement

3909
04:01:53,079 --> 04:01:56,239
where Honeker goes to visit the Budist Republic and uh

3910
04:01:57,399 --> 04:02:00,360
the uh they flew like the DDR flag, but they

3911
04:02:00,360 --> 04:02:02,680
full the d DR flags slightly lower than like the

3912
04:02:02,680 --> 04:02:08,360
Booms Republic flag, and like uh they'd uh the uh.

3913
04:02:09,360 --> 04:02:12,360
He like like a band greeted him, like a military band,

3914
04:02:12,520 --> 04:02:14,879
like when he disembarked, you know in Bond, but like

3915
04:02:14,920 --> 04:02:16,840
nobody would salute him as he would like ahead of state.

3916
04:02:16,879 --> 04:02:19,680
It was like this goofy like half measure and there's

3917
04:02:19,680 --> 04:02:25,120
this really striking photographs like a helmet. Cole who uh

3918
04:02:25,159 --> 04:02:28,639
he and Merkele whatever their respective faults, and they are many.

3919
04:02:28,760 --> 04:02:31,799
I mean they they were the really the only post

3920
04:02:31,840 --> 04:02:35,159
war German chancellors who did anything really to restore German

3921
04:02:35,239 --> 04:02:41,399
sovereignty and in various capacities. Cole was a like a

3922
04:02:41,479 --> 04:02:44,000
huge man. He was like this huge, like bear looking guy,

3923
04:02:44,079 --> 04:02:46,120
you know, like this kind of like big Bavarian kind

3924
04:02:46,159 --> 04:02:48,399
of like a Herman Garring type, you know, like big

3925
04:02:48,520 --> 04:02:51,079
loud dude, you know, like uh, just like a huge person.

3926
04:02:51,520 --> 04:02:54,200
And like Honiker Honker was kind of like this creepy

3927
04:02:54,280 --> 04:02:57,440
like nerdy eye, you know, like kinda kind of how

3928
04:02:57,479 --> 04:02:59,760
you like imagine like you know, the kind of communists

3929
04:02:59,760 --> 04:03:01,879
from metal casting this kind of like this kind of

3930
04:03:01,920 --> 04:03:04,600
like profest storial dickhead who like nobody likes. It's like

3931
04:03:04,639 --> 04:03:07,280
there's this photo like you know, like huge like comet cold.

3932
04:03:07,280 --> 04:03:09,079
He's gotta get big grin in his face. There's this

3933
04:03:09,159 --> 04:03:11,280
like pissed off with a like Conker and like an

3934
04:03:11,319 --> 04:03:14,319
east Block suit who's like you know, five five even

3935
04:03:14,479 --> 04:03:16,639
like it's it's like he's like being dwarfed by like

3936
04:03:16,680 --> 04:03:20,479
you know, it was like kind of like you know,

3937
04:03:20,639 --> 04:03:23,200
metaphor that seemed really resident. I thought that as like

3938
04:03:23,200 --> 04:03:26,159
a little kid, and then just the other week when

3939
04:03:26,159 --> 04:03:30,120
I came across it in uh In uh in this

3940
04:03:30,159 --> 04:03:33,280
book in the nineteen eighty nine Revolutions, I'm like, wow,

3941
04:03:33,319 --> 04:03:35,639
that's really striking. I wasn't sure if it was just

3942
04:03:35,680 --> 04:03:37,959
like Mandela effect me like remembering it as being more

3943
04:03:38,040 --> 04:03:46,000
like profound than that. But the what ultimately happened, you know,

3944
04:03:46,040 --> 04:03:51,000
the convergence of all these things it became, it became

3945
04:03:51,040 --> 04:03:55,479
at some point unthinkable, even notwithstanding for the the intrigues

3946
04:03:55,559 --> 04:03:59,159
of a of a you know, within within the Kremlin

3947
04:03:59,760 --> 04:04:02,479
that out Garbachev to kind of rook his enemies, and

3948
04:04:02,479 --> 04:04:07,120
and and in sideline any true uh, you know, hard

3949
04:04:07,200 --> 04:04:12,959
liners aim to sabotage parastrike on policy terms. It at

3950
04:04:13,000 --> 04:04:16,200
some point became unthinkable for the Soviet Army to deploy

3951
04:04:16,920 --> 04:04:20,399
you know, in Poland or in you know, East Germany,

3952
04:04:20,440 --> 04:04:24,040
but came to that and and do what they've done

3953
04:04:24,079 --> 04:04:29,079
in Hungary and fifty six and the Czechoslovakia on sixty eight.

3954
04:04:30,639 --> 04:04:32,639
You know, I mean, zeitgeist is a real thing, man.

3955
04:04:32,719 --> 04:04:36,440
I mean, like, I think people who take historical revisionism seriously,

3956
04:04:36,639 --> 04:04:38,319
I don't think any of them would disagree with this.

3957
04:04:38,600 --> 04:04:43,319
But the but uh, even if you're not you know,

3958
04:04:43,680 --> 04:04:46,079
prone to kind of hay gaily and interpretations of these

3959
04:04:46,079 --> 04:04:52,760
things and the pressure of you know, like world moral consensus,

3960
04:04:52,959 --> 04:04:55,200
that's a real that is a real thing. It's not

3961
04:04:55,239 --> 04:04:57,680
just something that like in a history liberals bandy about.

3962
04:04:58,360 --> 04:05:00,920
And what was possible in nineties sixty eight or ninety

3963
04:05:00,959 --> 04:05:04,360
seventy eight or even nineteen eighty one was no longer

3964
04:05:04,440 --> 04:05:07,120
possible by like nineteen eighty six, nineteen eighty seven. I mean,

3965
04:05:07,120 --> 04:05:10,799
it just it just wasn't thinkable. And I that's why

3966
04:05:10,920 --> 04:05:15,600
when people post the question as the you know, well

3967
04:05:15,719 --> 04:05:21,680
why why wasn't there at Kienman Square. Moment, It's like, well,

3968
04:05:22,639 --> 04:05:26,959
considera like this what actually happened at the inner German border.

3969
04:05:27,760 --> 04:05:31,799
And in the moment it was happening, I I A

3970
04:05:31,840 --> 04:05:38,520
lot of people didn't even fully realize what the precipitating

3971
04:05:38,559 --> 04:05:45,079
catalysts were. In April of eighty nine, really the first

3972
04:05:45,239 --> 04:05:48,000
chink in the uh in the iron curtain, like the

3973
04:05:48,000 --> 04:05:55,440
physical structure of the hardened border was the Hungarian garment

3974
04:05:55,520 --> 04:05:59,239
finally shut off the electric fences that saturated the Austria

3975
04:05:59,559 --> 04:06:04,079
Austria Hungarian border. Uh. The guard towers remained, they were

3976
04:06:04,079 --> 04:06:07,920
still manned, but uh, there literally was an electric fence

3977
04:06:08,040 --> 04:06:13,360
like running the perimeter, you know it. Uh you know,

3978
04:06:13,600 --> 04:06:21,159
I mean and uh by may uh the boy the

3979
04:06:21,200 --> 04:06:24,760
border guards. Uh, there's this, there's this big deal. Uh.

3980
04:06:24,920 --> 04:06:28,040
The border guards uh in Hungary like met with their

3981
04:06:28,319 --> 04:06:33,879
like Austrian counterparts and uh began dismantling like sections of

3982
04:06:34,000 --> 04:06:36,319
the barrier, you know, and they like they the Autionans

3983
04:06:36,319 --> 04:06:39,799
obviously invited you know, like Western news crews and stuff.

3984
04:06:40,479 --> 04:06:43,680
And uh, this is the first kind of indication that

3985
04:06:44,159 --> 04:06:49,319
you know, the like Warsaw Pact could no longer exist

3986
04:06:49,399 --> 04:06:56,040
as it as it had you know, for decades, taking

3987
04:06:56,120 --> 04:07:01,239
its que from that. The Hungarian communists and I know

3988
04:07:01,280 --> 04:07:04,920
that Hungarians, may Garrets, are really great people and they're

3989
04:07:04,920 --> 04:07:07,840
really proud people, and they were actually at the forefront

3990
04:07:07,959 --> 04:07:12,680
of the anti communist resistance. And I'm not praising the

3991
04:07:12,680 --> 04:07:16,879
communist regime there at all, but to their credit, Uh,

3992
04:07:17,559 --> 04:07:28,040
Hungary's foreign minister horn Uh realized that, you know, travel

3993
04:07:28,079 --> 04:07:34,200
restrictions had to be lifted, even if his motives were cynical,

3994
04:07:34,239 --> 04:07:36,879
and that you know, he he was operating with an

3995
04:07:36,879 --> 04:07:40,399
eye to preserve the party state apparatus. The point is that,

3996
04:07:41,200 --> 04:07:44,159
you know, the it was, it was the Hungarian regime

3997
04:07:44,280 --> 04:07:47,680
that really first, you know, kind of gave way, you know,

3998
04:07:47,760 --> 04:07:51,040
and they they had a long they had a long

3999
04:07:51,159 --> 04:07:54,920
history post fifty six a compromise. And again I'm not

4000
04:07:54,959 --> 04:07:58,360
saying because they were good men or something or principled.

4001
04:07:58,799 --> 04:08:01,120
I think a lot of it old, you know, the

4002
04:08:01,120 --> 04:08:04,319
existential reality that in Hungary especially, they wouldn't have survived

4003
04:08:04,360 --> 04:08:09,319
if they hadn't made certain concessions. But people forget that.

4004
04:08:09,639 --> 04:08:12,559
You know, the Hungary the Austro Hungarian border is really

4005
04:08:12,559 --> 04:08:20,479
where where you know, the kind of thaw began and

4006
04:08:20,520 --> 04:08:23,639
what's fascinating too, at least I think so, because I've

4007
04:08:23,680 --> 04:08:26,399
got kind of a fascination, a fascination with a Habsburg

4008
04:08:26,440 --> 04:08:28,799
in Vienna, because i think some people know who like

4009
04:08:28,959 --> 04:08:37,000
follow my content during the summer season, and there was

4010
04:08:37,040 --> 04:08:39,719
always a lot of East German tourists in Hungary and

4011
04:08:39,920 --> 04:08:42,520
nineteen eighty nine was no exception, because you know, Hungary

4012
04:08:42,559 --> 04:08:45,399
is Hungry is a beautiful place, I'm sure, and as

4013
04:08:45,440 --> 04:08:48,559
such it has such a reputation. But you know, if

4014
04:08:48,559 --> 04:08:50,440
you were East German, Hungary is one of the places

4015
04:08:50,440 --> 04:08:54,920
you could visit, you know, like on vacation. And the

4016
04:08:55,120 --> 04:08:59,440
uh An idea which was hatched by Ottovon Habsburg, who

4017
04:08:59,479 --> 04:09:01,639
was the last he was he was the last crown

4018
04:09:01,760 --> 04:09:08,440
prince of the hats for Empire, you know he uh

4019
04:09:08,719 --> 04:09:12,559
he said, uh, let's invite uh let's let's let's invite

4020
04:09:12,600 --> 04:09:18,799
our German friends to a picnic on the uh Austro

4021
04:09:18,920 --> 04:09:22,840
Hungarian border. And of course, you know, like there're these

4022
04:09:22,920 --> 04:09:25,760
these East German you know, tourists swarm to the border,

4023
04:09:26,360 --> 04:09:28,319
which was then opened ups. They could you know, travel

4024
04:09:28,360 --> 04:09:30,440
to Austria and then from there, you know, they could

4025
04:09:30,440 --> 04:09:35,079
get you know, to the Bundus Republic. And this totally

4026
04:09:35,120 --> 04:09:39,200
neutralized uh, you know, the inner German border and its

4027
04:09:39,840 --> 04:09:43,879
ability to plug the verbial see that you know, had

4028
04:09:43,959 --> 04:09:49,079
led to their hemorrhaging of population. And from that point on,

4029
04:09:50,159 --> 04:09:54,959
uh and and and you know, unless unless the East

4030
04:09:54,959 --> 04:09:58,360
Germans were truly willing to the open fire on their

4031
04:09:58,399 --> 04:10:03,520
own people. And and I can't think of anybody who

4032
04:10:03,520 --> 04:10:06,920
would have been willing to take responsibility for that. You know,

4033
04:10:06,920 --> 04:10:10,559
there's nothing short of that would have uh what have

4034
04:10:10,719 --> 04:10:15,600
uh would have changed things. And like I said, even

4035
04:10:15,639 --> 04:10:21,440
before Gorbachev, the uh whatever, I I think it was

4036
04:10:21,479 --> 04:10:26,159
already unthinkable. You know again, like hard line is uh

4037
04:10:27,159 --> 04:10:32,680
the d drop of Sharon Anco regimes were I think

4038
04:10:32,680 --> 04:10:34,639
it was kind of the same regime as I've vindicated

4039
04:10:34,680 --> 04:10:38,200
for reasons I've neigated before. It was clear even by

4040
04:10:38,239 --> 04:10:40,840
then that you know, the prison of Doctionri was dead

4041
04:10:40,840 --> 04:10:46,920
for practical purposes, and the Soviet Union was a superpower.

4042
04:10:47,040 --> 04:10:50,079
Like people forget that sometimes you're not talking about Sam's Iraq,

4043
04:10:50,159 --> 04:10:55,399
you're not talking about you know, you're not, uh, you're

4044
04:10:55,440 --> 04:10:57,520
you're not You're not talking about North Korea. You're not

4045
04:10:57,799 --> 04:11:01,200
you know you were you weren't talking about you you're

4046
04:11:01,200 --> 04:11:03,879
you're even talking about a place like two Gemount of Croatia,

4047
04:11:03,959 --> 04:11:06,239
like which I think was a great regime. But my

4048
04:11:06,280 --> 04:11:09,559
point is, you know, this thing, the Soviet Union still

4049
04:11:09,680 --> 04:11:13,559
was accountable in some basic way, you know, as a superpower.

4050
04:11:13,600 --> 04:11:18,799
I mean they they they their territory spanned one six

4051
04:11:18,840 --> 04:11:23,200
of the planet, and the sphere of influence was, you know,

4052
04:11:24,520 --> 04:11:27,559
in territorial terms, exceeded even that of the United States,

4053
04:11:28,200 --> 04:11:31,559
I mean outside of you know, the Soviet Empire proper.

4054
04:11:32,360 --> 04:11:42,120
But what uh, what I think is key with respect

4055
04:11:42,200 --> 04:11:47,920
to the uh, how the Cold War ended, is what

4056
04:11:48,000 --> 04:11:53,639
was happening in Washington and how uh Bush forty one

4057
04:11:53,639 --> 04:11:58,959
and James Baker proceeded. That's the only thing that facilitated

4058
04:11:59,000 --> 04:12:06,040
Gorbachev's like the realization of his and Edward chevit Nardza

4059
04:12:06,200 --> 04:12:09,680
I always butchered the pronunciation of that name. He was

4060
04:12:09,719 --> 04:12:13,399
the foreign minister who succeeded rom Eco later became President

4061
04:12:13,479 --> 04:12:19,520
of Georgia. But in foreign policy terms, Schev Knadze was

4062
04:12:21,879 --> 04:12:24,479
he He was really kind of the go between in

4063
04:12:24,479 --> 04:12:29,360
some ways between the Kremlin and the US foreign policy establishment.

4064
04:12:30,159 --> 04:12:34,399
And as we talked about Team b and they kind

4065
04:12:34,440 --> 04:12:38,079
of hold they had over the trajectory of policy in

4066
04:12:38,120 --> 04:12:44,600
the Reagan administration. They've been somewhat sidelined by the Bush

4067
04:12:44,639 --> 04:12:49,079
forty one administration. Shaney was kind of their man who

4068
04:12:49,120 --> 04:12:55,840
remained in proximity to you know, to the sovereign lever

4069
04:12:55,920 --> 04:13:00,479
of power. But Baker and Bush, as I've discussed before,

4070
04:13:02,159 --> 04:13:05,840
their vision was not the Soviet Union being dismantled. Quite

4071
04:13:05,879 --> 04:13:09,840
the contrary. They at least wanted the Soviet Union to

4072
04:13:09,920 --> 04:13:14,280
endure until total disarmament was realized, you know, total nuclear

4073
04:13:14,280 --> 04:13:20,920
disarmament and almost total you know, reduction of conventional forces

4074
04:13:20,920 --> 04:13:28,040
and being and moving forward even from that, I believe, yeah, no,

4075
04:13:28,079 --> 04:13:28,479
please do.

4076
04:13:28,879 --> 04:13:32,719
Speaker 1: Would that be coming from the same faction uh that

4077
04:13:32,760 --> 04:13:38,040
today is responsible for wanting to topple Putin.

4078
04:13:39,319 --> 04:13:41,840
Speaker 3: That's the team the legacy that those guys are, the

4079
04:13:41,920 --> 04:13:45,879
legacy of Team B and in some places the very

4080
04:13:45,879 --> 04:13:49,719
sane people, because like Bush and Baker, their idea was like, okay,

4081
04:13:49,840 --> 04:13:52,959
they basically wanted to like reinstitute what it been, kind

4082
04:13:52,959 --> 04:13:55,520
of like the New Deal idea, like the New Deal

4083
04:13:55,600 --> 04:13:58,879
concord of like the world ruled by the United States,

4084
04:13:58,959 --> 04:14:01,680
the Soviet Union, or like something like a Commonwealth of

4085
04:14:01,719 --> 04:14:07,879
Independent states like succeeding it as like junior partner Kane,

4086
04:14:08,360 --> 04:14:10,760
he was on a records literally saying like fuck them,

4087
04:14:10,799 --> 04:14:13,239
I mean the sty Union they lost. You know, let's

4088
04:14:13,280 --> 04:14:16,120
detonate it. Let's let's basically detonate like all the all

4089
04:14:16,120 --> 04:14:19,159
the republics, you know, the nationalities. You know, let's tear

4090
04:14:19,200 --> 04:14:21,600
the sovieni apart. Let's like loot what we can keep

4091
04:14:21,680 --> 04:14:27,360
Russia permanently down, you know, let's surround it based you know,

4092
04:14:27,799 --> 04:14:29,799
we'll turn it. We'll we'll turn Ukraine into like a

4093
04:14:29,799 --> 04:14:32,440
garrison state, will turn Georgia into a garrison state. You know.

4094
04:14:32,600 --> 04:14:36,600
Uh and basically you know, keep our basically you know,

4095
04:14:36,680 --> 04:14:41,719
Morgan foul play in Russia. Okay, those are the guys

4096
04:14:41,760 --> 04:14:45,840
who went out from Clinton administration onward. I mean Clinton

4097
04:14:45,879 --> 04:14:48,479
was a complete buffoon in foreign policy. Like he literally

4098
04:14:48,559 --> 04:14:52,520
was just like a fucking buffoon. He was basically he

4099
04:14:52,520 --> 04:14:55,159
basically was. He was basically a machiavilion on on the

4100
04:14:55,239 --> 04:14:57,760
order of LBJ like his in terms of his politicking,

4101
04:14:57,840 --> 04:15:00,040
he was like a manchafule politician, like what he I

4102
04:15:00,040 --> 04:15:01,280
think that's like a lot of what or not kind

4103
04:15:01,280 --> 04:15:04,440
of depends on your perspective. But he had like the

4104
04:15:04,520 --> 04:15:08,280
zero interest, no understanding of foreign policy, like none, so

4105
04:15:08,479 --> 04:15:11,559
uh basically it was like available to highest bidder, you know.

4106
04:15:11,559 --> 04:15:16,120
And that's why everything all the goodwill like achieved by

4107
04:15:16,120 --> 04:15:19,680
the Bush Baker concord was just like it was just

4108
04:15:19,719 --> 04:15:24,399
like you know, nuke to like proverbially subsequently. And then

4109
04:15:24,920 --> 04:15:28,920
you know the uh, the uh the assault on Serbia,

4110
04:15:29,680 --> 04:15:32,040
you know, which was deployed a strategic logic other than

4111
04:15:32,079 --> 04:15:33,920
basically just to say, like you know, we're gonna like

4112
04:15:34,079 --> 04:15:35,840
we're gonna break Ivan's face and get him out of

4113
04:15:35,840 --> 04:15:38,000
the Balkans, Like like why would you even do that?

4114
04:15:38,159 --> 04:15:42,280
But I mean it's some you know that. Uh, those

4115
04:15:42,399 --> 04:15:46,840
those the two that's that's what's underway today. That's why

4116
04:15:49,639 --> 04:15:52,280
these like neo con types and and like they're they're

4117
04:15:52,319 --> 04:15:55,200
kind of a sentence. They they still this day like

4118
04:15:55,399 --> 04:15:57,760
Rake Bush forty one over the close but believe the

4119
04:15:57,840 --> 04:16:01,399
Chicken Kief speech like how dare he? Like and modern

4120
04:16:01,520 --> 04:16:05,360
the Ukrainians not to wage some like suicide suicidal war

4121
04:16:05,360 --> 04:16:08,879
against Moscow for no reason. I mean like it's but

4122
04:16:09,000 --> 04:16:13,520
that's uh yeah, I mean that's a post understand me too,

4123
04:16:13,559 --> 04:16:16,680
Like I'm not saying Obviously, anybody who's not a freaking

4124
04:16:16,719 --> 04:16:20,399
idiot should realize that I'm not advocating like some kind

4125
04:16:20,399 --> 04:16:22,159
of like new deal or revision of the world like

4126
04:16:22,239 --> 04:16:25,520
two point zero. But what Bush and Baker accomplished was

4127
04:16:25,559 --> 04:16:29,920
truly masterful. The golfer a coalition is unprecedented, you know.

4128
04:16:29,920 --> 04:16:33,040
And the fact that basically like Busch forty one like

4129
04:16:33,040 --> 04:16:36,000
at the whole world like like freaking in the palm

4130
04:16:36,000 --> 04:16:41,000
of his hand, like that's crazy, you know, and he uh,

4131
04:16:41,040 --> 04:16:45,520
he courted the Arab world in a way that was

4132
04:16:45,719 --> 04:16:48,440
with an eye towards genuinely like normalizing you know, the

4133
04:16:48,479 --> 04:16:52,680
Middle East and and kind of defanging uh Desigonist lobby.

4134
04:16:53,159 --> 04:16:54,840
Like that's not just again, I'm not saying Bush forty

4135
04:16:54,879 --> 04:16:57,040
one was like our guy like at all, but he

4136
04:16:57,120 --> 04:17:00,360
represented something very different than the neo cons and different

4137
04:17:00,360 --> 04:17:04,600
from like even you know, even most like Rhino types

4138
04:17:04,639 --> 04:17:06,760
you know, like that, and same thing with Baker, like

4139
04:17:07,000 --> 04:17:10,120
these guys were like the old you want to, like,

4140
04:17:10,120 --> 04:17:12,840
like the old Protestant establishment the last time they were

4141
04:17:12,840 --> 04:17:15,479
like at the Helm like that was it okay? So

4142
04:17:16,000 --> 04:17:19,360
and frankly like in some basic way, like those guys

4143
04:17:19,399 --> 04:17:22,319
are like my teen like even though like class divides

4144
04:17:22,399 --> 04:17:24,920
us like it, I'm I'm not gonna sit here and

4145
04:17:24,959 --> 04:17:27,799
like out and out like trash them because frankly, like

4146
04:17:27,920 --> 04:17:31,120
their vision was like far better than anybody else's, like

4147
04:17:31,200 --> 04:17:33,239
post war like now withsaying the fact, you know, the

4148
04:17:33,280 --> 04:17:37,079
war shouldn't have happened. But that's that's what I want

4149
04:17:37,079 --> 04:17:40,799
to get into next week. And the Gulf War. Uh,

4150
04:17:41,520 --> 04:17:43,559
the Golfer is like an Adam Dam to the Cold War,

4151
04:17:43,920 --> 04:17:46,479
like it really is, and like the even you know,

4152
04:17:46,680 --> 04:17:51,479
uh black Horse Regiment Armored cavalry you know who patrolled

4153
04:17:51,520 --> 04:17:53,719
the full the gap like they fought like at the

4154
04:17:54,239 --> 04:17:57,200
seventy three East thing. That's where Darelas McGregor like he

4155
04:17:57,280 --> 04:17:59,239
was a black Horse regiment. Like there's all kinds of

4156
04:18:00,120 --> 04:18:02,360
plus two. I mean, it's that's that's where you got

4157
04:18:02,399 --> 04:18:06,479
to see the you know, the bay like the post

4158
04:18:06,559 --> 04:18:10,319
revolution in military affairs like US Army, which I believe

4159
04:18:10,399 --> 04:18:12,840
was like the US Army at Zenith like at that

4160
04:18:12,840 --> 04:18:16,159
that can be argued you know, fight against like warsaw

4161
04:18:16,200 --> 04:18:19,520
pack weapons platforms and and just and the political climate

4162
04:18:20,280 --> 04:18:22,559
globally like it's just something that like has never been

4163
04:18:22,559 --> 04:18:24,920
seen before and will like like will never be duplicated,

4164
04:18:25,319 --> 04:18:28,360
you know, And that's and and that that was. So

4165
04:18:28,360 --> 04:18:32,799
it's not just I it's not just an addendum because

4166
04:18:32,840 --> 04:18:36,600
it was post November ninete eighty nine, but pre you know,

4167
04:18:36,840 --> 04:18:41,799
uh pre uh dissolution of the the USSR. It like

4168
04:18:41,840 --> 04:18:44,280
you've got to really understand that it's kind of not

4169
04:18:44,319 --> 04:18:47,639
just the zenith of American power and absolute terms, but

4170
04:18:48,079 --> 04:18:50,639
also kind of like the realization of like the Bush

4171
04:18:50,680 --> 04:18:55,040
and Baker kind of a vision of a of of

4172
04:18:55,040 --> 04:18:58,600
of of foreign policy moving forward, other of globalism rather

4173
04:18:59,079 --> 04:19:02,440
like which was you know, burn to the ground within

4174
04:19:02,600 --> 04:19:08,040
half a decade by by uh by the foods like

4175
04:19:08,040 --> 04:19:12,920
Clinton and you know people who would uh you know

4176
04:19:12,920 --> 04:19:16,120
who would would place h they're pretty you know, kind

4177
04:19:16,120 --> 04:19:23,079
of ancestral hatreds overall over a meaningful you know, historical development.

4178
04:19:23,239 --> 04:19:24,920
But yeah, that's what all I got for today.

4179
04:19:24,920 --> 04:19:27,440
Speaker 2: Man, Well, let me ask you this before we go.

4180
04:19:27,639 --> 04:19:30,559
Speaker 1: I mean, I was watching I was watching it on

4181
04:19:30,680 --> 04:19:35,559
TV on November ninth. Wasn't anything that you know, I

4182
04:19:35,600 --> 04:19:40,000
expected then. We didn't have the internet, we couldn't keep CNN. Yeah,

4183
04:19:40,399 --> 04:19:44,040
and so how did that? How did that happen? Because

4184
04:19:44,040 --> 04:19:45,959
you you can go on YouTube now and you can

4185
04:19:46,000 --> 04:19:48,799
watch there's videos of seeing people pouring over the border,

4186
04:19:49,479 --> 04:19:53,280
ladies like you know, screaming at at East German officers

4187
04:19:53,280 --> 04:19:54,680
saying just let me go, let me go.

4188
04:19:55,879 --> 04:19:58,280
Speaker 3: Well, what happened at UH, what happened at the East

4189
04:19:58,280 --> 04:20:06,559
German border was the UH. As the situation in Hungary,

4190
04:20:06,639 --> 04:20:08,959
he kind of became like more and more unmanageable, you know,

4191
04:20:09,000 --> 04:20:12,159
with like East Germans just UH, you know, hopping over

4192
04:20:12,239 --> 04:20:16,600
to UH Austria and then to you know, and then

4193
04:20:16,680 --> 04:20:18,760
and then UH and then to the West German Embassy

4194
04:20:18,799 --> 04:20:24,239
and then like onward, you know, the Buddhist Republic, the UH,

4195
04:20:26,760 --> 04:20:29,799
the the Volkes commer Well, first of all, Eric Honecker.

4196
04:20:30,719 --> 04:20:33,719
Honeker stepped down because there was you know a lot

4197
04:20:33,719 --> 04:20:38,399
of these protests that were underway in easter in the

4198
04:20:38,440 --> 04:20:41,680
d d R. We're demanding that Honeker resign among other things.

4199
04:20:42,200 --> 04:20:48,559
Honeker steps down. The Volkes Comma UH appoints Egon Krenz,

4200
04:20:48,719 --> 04:20:51,040
which was who was like the air apparent anyway, he

4201
04:20:51,159 --> 04:20:52,920
was the guy who was like being groomed like as

4202
04:20:53,079 --> 04:21:02,799
you know, successor Krans Uh ordered UH the Interior Ministry

4203
04:21:03,040 --> 04:21:10,159
to draft UH regulations that were less uh that were

4204
04:21:10,280 --> 04:21:17,520
less uh less oppressive unless byzantine that would allow people

4205
04:21:17,719 --> 04:21:21,120
exit visas, you know, which it was totally arbitrary and capricious,

4206
04:21:21,239 --> 04:21:23,760
like who would be a grand one and who wouldn't

4207
04:21:23,799 --> 04:21:27,600
be like like it didn't make any sense. But uh,

4208
04:21:29,959 --> 04:21:38,319
the uh credsass Gerald Gerhard Gerhard Gerhard Louder, who was,

4209
04:21:38,399 --> 04:21:44,000
among other things, uh, the volks Politici chief who were

4210
04:21:44,079 --> 04:21:49,959
responsible for you know, border checkpoint security among other things,

4211
04:21:51,639 --> 04:21:55,360
he heard the hymn to order the Interior Ministry you know,

4212
04:21:55,760 --> 04:21:58,680
to draft some kind of workable uh you know, like

4213
04:21:58,840 --> 04:22:03,520
visa applications some that in there. What they were hoping

4214
04:22:03,799 --> 04:22:07,040
was that people who were political unreliable, they could basically

4215
04:22:07,120 --> 04:22:09,479
just like send them away to West Berlin, you know,

4216
04:22:09,719 --> 04:22:15,239
with good riddance. But you know they could uh find

4217
04:22:15,399 --> 04:22:17,520
some way you know to grant visa the people that

4218
04:22:17,639 --> 04:22:23,600
appeared like nominally like democratic, but you know, would would

4219
04:22:23,639 --> 04:22:25,639
there there'd still be incentives them to like remain in

4220
04:22:26,399 --> 04:22:30,319
you know, not not defect basically generally that would be

4221
04:22:30,479 --> 04:22:33,040
you know, to not like the only like you have

4222
04:22:33,440 --> 04:22:35,559
a ford like one member of a family, like a visa,

4223
04:22:35,639 --> 04:22:40,639
you know, stuff like that. But the way this was

4224
04:22:40,719 --> 04:22:45,840
communicated was Uh you had people already like massing at

4225
04:22:45,879 --> 04:22:50,920
the checkpoints, you know, in anticipation of like what the

4226
04:22:51,040 --> 04:22:54,520
new like law would be, like awaiting the announcement, and

4227
04:22:54,799 --> 04:23:00,600
uh you had louder and uh these Interior Ministry officials,

4228
04:23:01,159 --> 04:23:04,840
you know, who are being bombarded with with questions, not

4229
04:23:05,000 --> 04:23:07,719
just from like d d R state media, but although

4230
04:23:07,760 --> 04:23:13,440
from like Western uh television and radio reps. And finally, uh,

4231
04:23:15,360 --> 04:23:20,840
this spokesman uh for the Interior Ministry, he read aloud,

4232
04:23:21,040 --> 04:23:24,559
uh the statement from the Vogues Comma about the status

4233
04:23:24,600 --> 04:23:28,079
of the new law, which was that private travel restriction

4234
04:23:28,319 --> 04:23:30,799
was now permitted. And it's not clear if this was

4235
04:23:30,840 --> 04:23:35,920
a broken memo or like you know, uh tell whatsoever,

4236
04:23:36,479 --> 04:23:40,680
or if it was just poorly drafted. But then a

4237
04:23:41,159 --> 04:23:43,920
reporter said, could you repeat that? Does that mean that

4238
04:23:43,959 --> 04:23:46,879
there's no longer any travel restrictions? And when does this

4239
04:23:47,000 --> 04:23:53,360
go into effect? And uh this this this spokesman said, well,

4240
04:23:53,399 --> 04:23:55,840
I believe it goes into effect immediately. And then the

4241
04:23:55,920 --> 04:24:01,159
people the checkpoints I started charging the border. Now, nobody

4242
04:24:01,239 --> 04:24:05,079
was willing to open fire on these people, so the

4243
04:24:07,840 --> 04:24:10,079
or cops like overwhelmed. After a while, they just like

4244
04:24:10,319 --> 04:24:11,840
threw open the gate, you know, because like what are

4245
04:24:11,840 --> 04:24:13,959
they gonna do. It's like they were they gonna get stampeded.

4246
04:24:14,040 --> 04:24:15,520
They's either gonna be a riot or there's gonna be

4247
04:24:15,520 --> 04:24:19,159
a riot, or you know, the Stasi was going to

4248
04:24:19,239 --> 04:24:22,799
deploy like you know, the internal security troops and start

4249
04:24:23,040 --> 04:24:25,399
you know, like killing people. And like none of these

4250
04:24:25,440 --> 04:24:28,159
guys wanted any part of that, I mean, if not

4251
04:24:28,280 --> 04:24:31,760
for ethical objections, because they didn't want to be held responsible.

4252
04:24:32,600 --> 04:24:36,399
So it was basically just like the momentum of of

4253
04:24:37,040 --> 04:24:43,799
you know, the will to kind of make this happen,

4254
04:24:44,440 --> 04:24:48,000
you know, like corneys. It sounds like people power if

4255
04:24:48,040 --> 04:24:50,920
you can get me, just sounding like a forgetting hippie

4256
04:24:51,000 --> 04:24:53,280
or something. But that's basically what went down.

4257
04:24:54,479 --> 04:24:58,920
Speaker 1: And then and then forty days later, remaining had decided

4258
04:24:59,000 --> 04:24:59,760
that it was u.

4259
04:25:00,920 --> 04:25:03,719
Speaker 3: Romania is kind of horrifying, man, like, not not the country.

4260
04:25:03,799 --> 04:25:06,319
It did. Romania is freaking awesome. It's like fascinating. But

4261
04:25:07,200 --> 04:25:10,360
Usescu was the one man, the one of the final

4262
04:25:10,440 --> 04:25:15,879
warsaw packed summits. Romania is fascinating because Sescu he played

4263
04:25:15,920 --> 04:25:18,840
both sides of the aisle. He got Kennedy to take

4264
04:25:19,360 --> 04:25:25,319
Romania off the target list for strategic nuclear weapons and uh.

4265
04:25:25,639 --> 04:25:28,799
He basically drew down the Romanian Army to like nothing

4266
04:25:28,840 --> 04:25:32,319
but like an internal like it means an internal oppression

4267
04:25:33,000 --> 04:25:37,159
for all practical purposes. He quit Warsaw Packed. Okay, you

4268
04:25:37,239 --> 04:25:40,479
know it was uh, it was not despite beings. That's

4269
04:25:40,520 --> 04:25:43,120
kind of arch Stalinist. He was not pretty clarly cozy

4270
04:25:43,159 --> 04:25:46,559
with the Kremlin. But he during the final October eighty

4271
04:25:46,680 --> 04:25:51,360
nine and the final Warsaw Packed summit, where internal security

4272
04:25:51,520 --> 04:25:54,680
was obviously on everybody's mind, he said, like we've got

4273
04:25:54,760 --> 04:25:56,879
to do with the Chinese comrades did at Tim and

4274
04:25:56,959 --> 04:25:58,520
even Honeker apparently looked at him. He was like, what

4275
04:25:58,559 --> 04:26:00,559
the hell is the matter with you? At least don't

4276
04:26:00,559 --> 04:26:03,639
say that out loud, like you know, like that's uh.

4277
04:26:04,360 --> 04:26:06,719
But yeah, the uh, we'll get into that too, because

4278
04:26:06,719 --> 04:26:10,760
that's fascinating and it's it's the outlier. Yeah, and I

4279
04:26:10,840 --> 04:26:13,200
mean for all kinds of reasons, but yeah, the uh,

4280
04:26:14,159 --> 04:26:17,520
the uh And then then and then mister and missus,

4281
04:26:18,600 --> 04:26:21,159
I saw that when I was in my aunt's house

4282
04:26:21,200 --> 04:26:25,000
and Mentura that Christmas, and I seeing that Cescu was

4283
04:26:25,040 --> 04:26:28,000
getting getting blown away like on TV and that and

4284
04:26:28,120 --> 04:26:30,479
this is this is like young people understand. This is

4285
04:26:30,559 --> 04:26:34,319
like you know, consumer internet was basically where you can

4286
04:26:34,360 --> 04:26:37,520
see video was like ten years away, fifteen years away.

4287
04:26:37,920 --> 04:26:40,600
Like this was like that's freaking crazy. It's like and

4288
04:26:41,000 --> 04:26:43,079
it's it's I shook me up as like a young team.

4289
04:26:43,120 --> 04:26:45,200
Then he killed his wife too, because there was like

4290
04:26:45,399 --> 04:26:47,399
I mean, she was she was a terrible person, but

4291
04:26:47,559 --> 04:26:49,639
like she was an old lady. They just like wasted

4292
04:26:49,680 --> 04:26:51,920
her like and I remember like one of the guards

4293
04:26:51,920 --> 04:26:53,959
they were leading leading them to the you know, the

4294
04:26:54,959 --> 04:26:58,760
to uh to the courtyard to be shot, Like the

4295
04:26:58,840 --> 04:27:00,840
one guard like put his hand in his album and

4296
04:27:00,879 --> 04:27:02,479
she just like shakes it off like that. I mean,

4297
04:27:02,520 --> 04:27:04,639
she was like a hard lady. But it's like the

4298
04:27:04,719 --> 04:27:06,200
point is she was like an old woman. I mean

4299
04:27:06,239 --> 04:27:08,280
it's like that kind of shocked me as a kid man.

4300
04:27:08,440 --> 04:27:14,520
But yeah, we'll uh well, uh yeah, we'll we'll cover uh,

4301
04:27:15,399 --> 04:27:18,079
we'll cover that. We'll cover Gulf War and bush Baker

4302
04:27:19,799 --> 04:27:22,559
in uh the final episode, we'll get into like Borwich

4303
04:27:22,639 --> 04:27:26,520
offers Yelton too, and so yeah, we we might go

4304
04:27:26,559 --> 04:27:28,399
a little bit longer next time. And that's okay with you,

4305
04:27:28,600 --> 04:27:30,159
but I think that'll be great.

4306
04:27:30,399 --> 04:27:31,760
Speaker 2: All right plugs.

4307
04:27:33,280 --> 04:27:35,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean for the time being, I'm still on Twitter,

4308
04:27:37,440 --> 04:27:41,239
so seek me out there. Uh it's Thomas seventh number

4309
04:27:41,319 --> 04:27:44,840
seven hl A S seven seven seven. It's official Underscore

4310
04:27:45,280 --> 04:27:48,479
Thomas seven seven seven. My primary home right now is

4311
04:27:48,559 --> 04:27:52,920
sub stack. Uh real Thomas seven seven seven. That's subset

4312
04:27:53,000 --> 04:27:56,959
dot com. I'm back on Instagram, I am. I I

4313
04:27:57,040 --> 04:28:00,399
gotta go out of town end of April, but May

4314
04:28:00,559 --> 04:28:03,719
first week in May, I promise. The channel is we're

4315
04:28:03,760 --> 04:28:07,879
shooting dedicated content like my crime partner and my my

4316
04:28:08,239 --> 04:28:11,520
my erstwhile editor who is is a is a prince

4317
04:28:11,559 --> 04:28:13,600
of the realm. I swear like the he's the reason

4318
04:28:13,719 --> 04:28:15,680
why all this stuff gets done because I I'm freaking

4319
04:28:16,200 --> 04:28:21,920
illiterate with this stuff. But I uh, we're we're we're

4320
04:28:22,079 --> 04:28:24,520
we're cranking out like fire ship, like I promise, But

4321
04:28:24,680 --> 04:28:27,319
I am like he and I really a two man

4322
04:28:27,440 --> 04:28:29,639
freaking operation. I mean, it's a lot of work, and

4323
04:28:29,680 --> 04:28:32,360
I I'm not being a murder. I'm an incredibly lucky person.

4324
04:28:32,479 --> 04:28:35,399
But that coupled with these manuscripts I'm trying to finish,

4325
04:28:36,120 --> 04:28:38,479
coupled with keeping up with all this other ship, I mean,

4326
04:28:38,600 --> 04:28:41,920
it's it's it's a freaking lot of work, man, But

4327
04:28:42,040 --> 04:28:45,360
it's come and I promise, man, Yeah, that's what I got.

4328
04:28:45,639 --> 04:28:47,159
Speaker 2: Yep, appreciate it's all the next time.

4329
04:28:47,559 --> 04:28:48,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, Pete.

4330
04:28:50,840 --> 04:28:52,680
Speaker 1: All right, I don't want to welcome everyone to the

4331
04:28:53,040 --> 04:28:55,840
uh the Q and a wrap up show for the

4332
04:28:56,000 --> 04:28:59,159
Cold War series with Thomas seven seven seven.

4333
04:28:59,559 --> 04:29:03,559
Speaker 3: You don't I'm very well, thanks and yeah, thanks for

4334
04:29:03,760 --> 04:29:07,120
commentating this format. Like I said, it just seems to

4335
04:29:07,200 --> 04:29:12,600
make sense. And I know that a lot of the

4336
04:29:12,639 --> 04:29:16,639
subscribers have been eager to you know, ask questions and

4337
04:29:16,639 --> 04:29:19,520
stuff and kind of get a more discussion based format going.

4338
04:29:20,319 --> 04:29:21,719
So yeah, that's great, man.

4339
04:29:22,440 --> 04:29:24,639
Speaker 2: Can I can I start with a question for me?

4340
04:29:25,280 --> 04:29:26,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, all right.

4341
04:29:26,479 --> 04:29:30,879
Speaker 2: Cool. We talked about this in the Yaki Spangler episode.

4342
04:29:31,079 --> 04:29:31,559
I did.

4343
04:29:31,760 --> 04:29:35,239
Speaker 1: But a lot of people who have just start hearing

4344
04:29:35,280 --> 04:29:38,559
about Yaki here that Yaki was, uh, you know after

4345
04:29:38,639 --> 04:29:42,719
World War Two and especially you know from after nineteen

4346
04:29:42,799 --> 04:29:46,479
fifty ish, he took the side of the Soviet Union

4347
04:29:46,719 --> 04:29:47,760
over America.

4348
04:29:47,959 --> 04:29:50,799
Speaker 2: Can you explain why he would do that?

4349
04:29:53,120 --> 04:29:59,319
Speaker 3: I mean, in geostrategic terms, it it's the perennial principle

4350
04:29:59,559 --> 04:30:02,399
that the only way that Europe is truly going to

4351
04:30:02,440 --> 04:30:07,239
be an autonomous actor. The only way it's going to

4352
04:30:07,239 --> 04:30:10,600
be able to compete as a superpower is if some

4353
04:30:10,680 --> 04:30:16,120
sort of concord is accomplished with Russia. You know this. Uh,

4354
04:30:17,280 --> 04:30:24,559
some people suggest that this is the Kinders world island

4355
04:30:24,799 --> 04:30:28,799
hypothers this, I mean, it isn't. It isn't. It's not. Uh,

4356
04:30:29,280 --> 04:30:33,079
it's not as so much a geography as destiny calculus.

4357
04:30:34,399 --> 04:30:37,399
It Uh, it has it has to do with power potential,

4358
04:30:38,239 --> 04:30:41,959
not just of material resources, but you know of uh

4359
04:30:42,360 --> 04:30:44,799
of mentioned material as you know that Germans used to

4360
04:30:44,840 --> 04:30:49,040
refer to, you know, human population. It's not just in

4361
04:30:49,120 --> 04:30:51,399
terms of their biology, but in terms of their capacity

4362
04:30:51,479 --> 04:30:55,040
to bear culture and things like that. Europe as this

4363
04:30:55,200 --> 04:31:01,200
kind of rump peninsula, you know, forever on an enemy

4364
04:31:01,280 --> 04:31:07,879
footing with Russia, artificially instigated and maintained by the United States,

4365
04:31:08,360 --> 04:31:11,600
is never even if the United States withdrew its forces

4366
04:31:11,639 --> 04:31:16,719
and being from Europe, but that status quo remained, Europe

4367
04:31:16,719 --> 04:31:21,600
would never ever be able to you know, emerge again

4368
04:31:21,680 --> 04:31:24,440
as as as a true power political actor of any

4369
04:31:24,680 --> 04:31:27,360
of any significance and hard power terms, I mean obviously

4370
04:31:27,440 --> 04:31:31,600
in economic terms and in cultural terms. You know, your

4371
04:31:31,719 --> 04:31:33,719
Europe is always you know, the kind of the center

4372
04:31:33,719 --> 04:31:37,280
of the world. Okay, and in many respects, but so

4373
04:31:37,360 --> 04:31:45,719
there's that part of it. Secondly, YACKI not incorrectly he identified, uh,

4374
04:31:46,680 --> 04:31:50,040
what the Cold War is basically and in house controversy

4375
04:31:50,079 --> 04:31:53,719
in ideological terms. You know, it was the the New

4376
04:31:53,799 --> 04:31:56,959
Dealer alliance with Moscow. Wasn't just a sort of alliance

4377
04:31:57,000 --> 04:31:59,920
of convenience because Europe was in the third right, which

4378
04:31:59,920 --> 04:32:02,000
is so evil like on his face, that doesn't make

4379
04:32:02,040 --> 04:32:07,520
any sense. You know, what this was is it was uh,

4380
04:32:07,920 --> 04:32:11,719
competing viewpoints of a global socialist order, you know, one

4381
04:32:11,799 --> 04:32:14,200
being the New Dealer perspective, the other being the marcis

4382
04:32:14,239 --> 04:32:19,959
leninst perspective, colluding in order to annihilate fascism and any

4383
04:32:20,000 --> 04:32:25,479
competing iteration of political order that would uh, you know,

4384
04:32:25,600 --> 04:32:29,920
come to dominate the twentieth century and in all centuries subsequent.

4385
04:32:30,680 --> 04:32:35,559
So you know what, one was not superior to the other.

4386
04:32:35,760 --> 04:32:38,319
You know, it's not like America represented the West. Contrary,

4387
04:32:38,319 --> 04:32:42,639
you know, the the alien Soviet Union or the Socialist

4388
04:32:42,680 --> 04:32:46,639
Soviet Union and America and a lot of it is

4389
04:32:46,760 --> 04:32:49,639
more insidious because it had an ability to insinuate itself

4390
04:32:50,760 --> 04:32:54,559
in the European cultural life. You know, I missed the

4391
04:32:54,639 --> 04:32:57,600
occupation regime. I mean in a way that the Soviet

4392
04:32:58,399 --> 04:33:02,319
just we're not able to. And finally, there was just

4393
04:33:02,639 --> 04:33:05,279
a difference there. There was there was a divergence of intent.

4394
04:33:05,840 --> 04:33:08,919
The Soviet Union wasn't trying to socially engineer you know,

4395
04:33:09,040 --> 04:33:11,840
white Europe out of existence, you know, I mean, yeah,

4396
04:33:11,880 --> 04:33:15,000
Marcius Leninism was a horrible system. It was brutal. It

4397
04:33:15,119 --> 04:33:19,000
persecuted people, It was hostile to religion, it was it Uh,

4398
04:33:19,599 --> 04:33:23,119
it persecuted people who were who were deemed politically unreliable.

4399
04:33:23,919 --> 04:33:27,959
It was anti human. I'm not acquitting that at all.

4400
04:33:28,759 --> 04:33:33,759
But again, it didn't aim to tear out the root

4401
04:33:34,000 --> 04:33:40,000
of cultural life and carry out uh a programmatic genocide

4402
04:33:40,119 --> 04:33:45,279
quite literally, you know, by annihilating uh, by annihilating European

4403
04:33:45,319 --> 04:33:47,759
culture at the root. And that's exactly what America aimed

4404
04:33:47,799 --> 04:33:51,759
to do, and in more concrete terms and in more

4405
04:33:51,880 --> 04:33:55,599
crude terms, not crude in terms of you know, disreputable

4406
04:33:55,720 --> 04:33:59,919
or something, but just in in kind of more basic terms. Also,

4407
04:34:00,000 --> 04:34:04,080
so you know, Yaki pointed to the Prague trials, uh,

4408
04:34:04,840 --> 04:34:06,799
the Prague trial relating to what came to be known

4409
04:34:06,799 --> 04:34:12,119
as the Doctor's plot, you know, where these twelve, these

4410
04:34:12,159 --> 04:34:16,439
twelve medical people were were tried for treason and conspiring

4411
04:34:16,520 --> 04:34:21,759
against you know, the Communist Party UH in Czechoslovakia, and

4412
04:34:21,840 --> 04:34:24,560
eleven of twelve of these people were Jews. Okay, a

4413
04:34:24,599 --> 04:34:27,200
lot of them were involved as Zionism, you know, they

4414
04:34:27,840 --> 04:34:31,000
it was obviously the Warsaw what was to become the

4415
04:34:31,040 --> 04:34:34,880
Warsaw Pact, the East Bloc. It was obviously them purging,

4416
04:34:35,240 --> 04:34:38,319
you know, the Jewish element from their leadership cast. And

4417
04:34:38,360 --> 04:34:40,880
they weren't doing it on some quote unquote racial basis

4418
04:34:41,319 --> 04:34:44,919
or some kind of sectarian basis, and their alibi was, well,

4419
04:34:45,000 --> 04:34:47,360
you know, it's it's incidental that these people are Jewish.

4420
04:34:47,520 --> 04:34:51,240
You know, we we can't abide this kind of counter

4421
04:34:51,319 --> 04:34:56,560
revolutionary treason, this activity. You know, it doesn't matter if

4422
04:34:57,119 --> 04:35:00,439
you know, it hurts people's feelings that you know, there's

4423
04:35:00,599 --> 04:35:03,840
certain certain ethnic groups are concentrated in the ranks of

4424
04:35:03,880 --> 04:35:07,959
these these undesirable elements. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna realize,

4425
04:35:08,080 --> 04:35:10,959
you know, justice no matter what. But it was obviously,

4426
04:35:11,279 --> 04:35:16,080
you know, a deliberate effort to purge Jewish influences from

4427
04:35:17,119 --> 04:35:23,599
from the ranks of the of of Fadres and in

4428
04:35:24,000 --> 04:35:26,840
in the Eastern Bloc. So if your notion is that,

4429
04:35:27,520 --> 04:35:31,000
you know, as Jackey's was, you know that that Europe

4430
04:35:31,040 --> 04:35:35,680
has to be liberated from enemy influences if it's going

4431
04:35:35,720 --> 04:35:39,799
to survive, let alone thrive. And if your idea is that,

4432
04:35:40,040 --> 04:35:42,479
you know, the traditional enemy of the West is UH,

4433
04:35:43,840 --> 04:35:48,720
you know is the Jewish dias for, and that that

4434
04:35:48,919 --> 04:35:52,439
dias for is is that their world of social existence

4435
04:35:53,880 --> 04:35:57,560
is the progenitor of UH. You know, the most the

4436
04:35:58,520 --> 04:36:04,400
the ideological tendencies most in nymical to Western survival. And finally,

4437
04:36:04,479 --> 04:36:08,360
again if if you view Europe's path to salvation and

4438
04:36:08,400 --> 04:36:12,279
paraplitical terms as you know, a concord with Moscow, I

4439
04:36:12,360 --> 04:36:16,520
mean all those things, you know, all the worlds need

4440
04:36:16,560 --> 04:36:19,479
to Moscow, if you'll allow the metaphor, I mean that

4441
04:36:19,599 --> 04:36:24,200
was Yaqui's perspective, you know, the and that's basically shouldn't

4442
04:36:24,200 --> 04:36:27,560
be controversial. I mean, the reason why the Soviet Union

4443
04:36:27,680 --> 04:36:30,599
was dangerous, the reason why it was insidious wasn't because

4444
04:36:30,639 --> 04:36:33,080
it was it was going around doing the kinds of

4445
04:36:33,200 --> 04:36:36,200
things that like the American government does today. You know,

4446
04:36:36,279 --> 04:36:39,080
it's not it wasn't trying to. It wasn't going around

4447
04:36:39,159 --> 04:36:42,080
declaring that like gender doesn't exist, or that, you know,

4448
04:36:42,240 --> 04:36:45,560
you everybody needs to breed, you know, the everybody needs

4449
04:36:45,599 --> 04:36:47,919
to breed into like one kind of like non race,

4450
04:36:48,560 --> 04:36:50,720
and you know, you know, all all all kind of

4451
04:36:50,880 --> 04:36:53,919
historical existences need to be eradicated, you know, so that

4452
04:36:54,000 --> 04:36:55,799
some kind of like equity can be achieved, or like

4453
04:36:55,919 --> 04:36:58,080
nobody has a historical memory, so we're all the same.

4454
04:36:58,360 --> 04:37:01,319
Like that that would never occur to the sol Union. Okay,

4455
04:37:03,040 --> 04:37:05,639
that doesn't make them good guys, but it makes them

4456
04:37:05,759 --> 04:37:11,119
far far less dangerous to uh, you know, racial survival

4457
04:37:11,240 --> 04:37:14,080
and and and kind of human culture in any in

4458
04:37:14,159 --> 04:37:19,319
any form than that. In America wasn't his you know,

4459
04:37:19,400 --> 04:37:21,479
and I I homatize that people that what what what

4460
04:37:21,599 --> 04:37:24,119
the American regime does today? This isn't something of like

4461
04:37:24,200 --> 04:37:26,680
recent vintage. You know, it's not like it's not like

4462
04:37:26,840 --> 04:37:29,520
the US government was like doing good things or wasn't

4463
04:37:29,599 --> 04:37:32,360
insane until like nineteen ninety or something, or until like

4464
04:37:32,400 --> 04:37:35,639
twenty sixteen, like they've always been. I mean, the New

4465
04:37:35,680 --> 04:37:39,599
Deal regime from inception, it was totally insane, and it's

4466
04:37:39,639 --> 04:37:43,959
totally insane ideas. It it was always sexually perverted. It

4467
04:37:44,360 --> 04:37:48,119
always it always wanted to eradicate people's understanding themselves as

4468
04:37:48,360 --> 04:37:56,720
as cultural you know, as culturally situated like it it uh,

4469
04:37:57,360 --> 04:38:01,360
it literally plotted to genocide Europe and you know, and

4470
04:38:01,520 --> 04:38:03,639
drafted up entire treaties. Is I don't even like the

4471
04:38:03,720 --> 04:38:06,520
sexual habits of Germans and how we can work. You

4472
04:38:06,680 --> 04:38:09,959
utilize this to undermine their potential to breed. I mean

4473
04:38:09,959 --> 04:38:13,240
they're like this really really sick stuff, you know, and

4474
04:38:13,639 --> 04:38:16,000
I mean some people can't accept that. I mean whatever, Okay,

4475
04:38:16,040 --> 04:38:18,919
if people have some like vestigial attachment to America, like

4476
04:38:19,000 --> 04:38:22,240
as a government, I I I don't care, but they're

4477
04:38:22,799 --> 04:38:25,720
they're not people I have any common cause with, and

4478
04:38:25,799 --> 04:38:29,520
I think they're incredibly diluted if they insist on retaining

4479
04:38:29,599 --> 04:38:32,680
that sensibility, will also insisting that they're somehow right ing

4480
04:38:32,880 --> 04:38:34,279
or opposed what is going on.

4481
04:38:36,560 --> 04:38:41,080
Speaker 1: Yeah's when somebody will bring up like you'll talk about

4482
04:38:41,319 --> 04:38:44,680
I'll do cha, and somebody will post the picture of

4483
04:38:44,799 --> 04:38:48,279
him hanging upside down, and this person is like somebody

4484
04:38:48,319 --> 04:38:51,919
who's like pro America, pro you know, what would seemingly

4485
04:38:52,000 --> 04:38:54,880
be on our side. I remind them that the people

4486
04:38:54,919 --> 04:38:56,959
who did that to him are the people who are

4487
04:38:57,000 --> 04:38:59,759
ruling over you today. They're the they're the same people,

4488
04:39:00,479 --> 04:39:04,439
and you're you're just basically cheering on the people who well.

4489
04:39:04,319 --> 04:39:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it wasn't a bunch of guys. It wasn't

4490
04:39:07,240 --> 04:39:08,959
like a bunch of like good old southern guys who

4491
04:39:09,000 --> 04:39:11,279
were like, we don't like Mussolini because he's a socialist

4492
04:39:11,400 --> 04:39:13,919
and he's not keen to the Second Amendment. Like they

4493
04:39:14,000 --> 04:39:16,000
were like, yeah, they were like out and out communists.

4494
04:39:16,000 --> 04:39:18,279
I'm not just out and out communists, but you know

4495
04:39:18,319 --> 04:39:20,240
of the kind of the kind of a Dorno and

4496
04:39:20,319 --> 04:39:24,720
Gramsey type who were you know, very much quote cultural Marxists.

4497
04:39:24,720 --> 04:39:26,799
I find it to be a troubling term. I don't

4498
04:39:26,880 --> 04:39:30,680
like it. But just for the sake of coherence, you

4499
04:39:30,759 --> 04:39:33,400
know that that's that's like the verdicular. But yeah, I don't,

4500
04:39:33,919 --> 04:39:37,520
I don't, Yeah, I don't understand how. I mean, Like,

4501
04:39:37,639 --> 04:39:40,560
it's like even even if even if you've got no

4502
04:39:40,759 --> 04:39:44,880
affinity for you know, kind of like European ideological tendencies,

4503
04:39:44,959 --> 04:39:47,959
or even if you know you you don't like national

4504
04:39:48,080 --> 04:39:51,400
socialism or fascism, like if you don't like any of

4505
04:39:51,479 --> 04:39:53,919
this stuff like why why would you celebrate this destruction,

4506
04:39:54,360 --> 04:39:57,360
Like why would you celebrate like Europe being literally annihilated

4507
04:39:57,479 --> 04:40:00,599
by by uh by cop I mean this and by

4508
04:40:00,639 --> 04:40:03,319
these like crazy new dealers want to like eradicate the

4509
04:40:03,400 --> 04:40:07,040
concept of race from this planet and and and do

4510
04:40:07,319 --> 04:40:10,000
like man as some kind of like instrumentality to serve

4511
04:40:10,159 --> 04:40:13,400
like good government. I mean that's completely perverted. But like

4512
04:40:13,520 --> 04:40:16,959
I said, I think it's that there really is uh

4513
04:40:17,240 --> 04:40:23,880
like a bougie kind of fixation, like really an obsession

4514
04:40:23,919 --> 04:40:27,479
with like respectability. And there's people they want to like

4515
04:40:27,560 --> 04:40:30,520
purge them people. People are like ambitious in the wrong ways.

4516
04:40:30,799 --> 04:40:33,000
They want to like purge their own minds of like

4517
04:40:33,200 --> 04:40:36,599
unclean thoughts and and and and and and not hating

4518
04:40:36,720 --> 04:40:40,360
fascism is an unclean thought. So they try and cope

4519
04:40:40,360 --> 04:40:42,119
by saying like, yeah, like I hate the regime, but

4520
04:40:42,360 --> 04:40:44,119
you know I hate you know, Hitler even more and

4521
04:40:44,400 --> 04:40:46,599
and and that's the worst thing ever, Like I I mean,

4522
04:40:46,639 --> 04:40:49,759
I don't know, I try. I I think I'm I

4523
04:40:50,200 --> 04:40:54,240
think I'm somewhat empathetic in terms that I I'm pretty

4524
04:40:54,279 --> 04:40:56,319
good at putting myself in the position of other people.

4525
04:40:57,040 --> 04:40:59,560
I mean just in in like practical terms. I mean,

4526
04:40:59,639 --> 04:41:04,080
that's there's a heavily psychological aspect to political life, you know.

4527
04:41:06,159 --> 04:41:09,759
And so I'm not saying I've got like great insights

4528
04:41:09,880 --> 04:41:11,880
or something, but I've thought about this a lot, and

4529
04:41:11,959 --> 04:41:14,639
I believe what I just indicated is like the source

4530
04:41:14,680 --> 04:41:18,560
of a lot of that foolishness. I got another.

4531
04:41:19,080 --> 04:41:22,240
Speaker 2: I got another question that was submitted before I do that.

4532
04:41:22,439 --> 04:41:24,799
Speaker 1: If anybody is watching on YouTube and they want to

4533
04:41:24,840 --> 04:41:27,360
go up to the pin comment, that connects you to

4534
04:41:27,520 --> 04:41:30,439
entropy and you can do super chats there. All right,

4535
04:41:31,479 --> 04:41:34,400
someone asked you mentioned a couple of times but didn't

4536
04:41:34,439 --> 04:41:36,479
get into it. Can you do a quick overview of

4537
04:41:36,560 --> 04:41:37,520
the Red Army Faction.

4538
04:41:39,639 --> 04:41:44,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Red Army Faction or the Bottom miine Hoff Gang.

4539
04:41:45,599 --> 04:41:50,200
They they were kind of unique because they were emergent

4540
04:41:50,360 --> 04:41:53,200
in night like in nineteen sixty eight. I mean a

4541
04:41:53,240 --> 04:41:58,279
lot of things happened of a revolutionary nature, including splintering

4542
04:41:58,759 --> 04:42:01,599
within the socialist camp. You know, that's when we talk

4543
04:42:01,639 --> 04:42:04,759
about cultural Marxism. That's really with under the euro Communists

4544
04:42:04,799 --> 04:42:08,040
and and socially radical element kind of split off from

4545
04:42:08,119 --> 04:42:12,959
orthodox Marxist Leninism. Well, the Bottom Meinhoff Faction they kind

4546
04:42:13,000 --> 04:42:16,240
of had one foot in both camps. And as it

4547
04:42:16,360 --> 04:42:20,599
turned out, they were very much a client, uh actor

4548
04:42:21,279 --> 04:42:26,639
of UH the Eastern Ministry, Ministry for State Security, and

4549
04:42:26,680 --> 04:42:28,599
they were they were very much kind of like the Branchell,

4550
04:42:28,680 --> 04:42:32,040
the Marcus Wolf, who was an incredibly dangerous individual and

4551
04:42:32,159 --> 04:42:35,639
he was the best intelligence man that Warsaw Facts had,

4552
04:42:35,759 --> 04:42:40,720
in my opinion, in he's the best intelligence man and

4553
04:42:40,799 --> 04:42:43,720
the best intelligence organization probably field by anybody in the

4554
04:42:43,799 --> 04:42:49,720
Cold War. But the bottom Mine Off faction they uh,

4555
04:42:51,000 --> 04:42:55,040
their their notion was to basically render the Buddhist Republic

4556
04:42:55,200 --> 04:43:00,639
ungovernable through terrorist activity, you know, just in kind of

4557
04:43:00,680 --> 04:43:04,159
conventional the kind of conventional terms that that nacate the

4558
04:43:04,200 --> 04:43:06,520
actors under arms, especially during the Cold War, like going

4559
04:43:06,560 --> 04:43:09,840
to the unique paradigm they're in like proceeded. But they

4560
04:43:09,959 --> 04:43:12,880
also that was during the period when uh, you know,

4561
04:43:13,000 --> 04:43:17,639
Billy Brandt was uh was seeking genuine reconciliation with East Germany,

4562
04:43:19,599 --> 04:43:24,560
and UH the idea was uh, it was, it was,

4563
04:43:24,639 --> 04:43:26,439
it was. It was very layered, okay, because on the

4564
04:43:26,520 --> 04:43:29,639
one hand, UH, on the one hand, the idea was

4565
04:43:29,799 --> 04:43:32,560
very simply like strike a blow against you know, like

4566
04:43:32,639 --> 04:43:37,080
America and the and uh and the bundes and UH

4567
04:43:37,400 --> 04:43:41,720
and and and sympathetic forces you know, within the Federal Republic.

4568
04:43:42,200 --> 04:43:44,799
But secondly, it also gave people like Brandt like an

4569
04:43:44,880 --> 04:43:48,200
alibi like, see, these are extremes, you know, we have

4570
04:43:48,319 --> 04:43:51,279
We're nothing like them. You know, we want an approachment

4571
04:43:51,400 --> 04:43:53,520
with the d d R and the Soviet Union for Peace.

4572
04:43:53,599 --> 04:43:55,520
So this kind of thing will no longer be happening

4573
04:43:56,080 --> 04:44:00,720
like which is really kind of brilliant. But they they

4574
04:44:00,759 --> 04:44:05,680
were very effective and they uh, they had they had

4575
04:44:05,720 --> 04:44:08,479
substantial contacts with a Popular Front for the Liberation of

4576
04:44:08,560 --> 04:44:15,279
Palestine General Command. They uh, I think they probably were uh.

4577
04:44:16,360 --> 04:44:18,880
I think they probably had contacts with the Provisional IRA,

4578
04:44:18,919 --> 04:44:21,840
although some people the ass debatable and I don't want

4579
04:44:21,840 --> 04:44:23,400
to I don't want to start some sort of argument

4580
04:44:23,479 --> 04:44:27,479
with people who have those kinds of sympathies. But that

4581
04:44:27,599 --> 04:44:30,040
was basically the Red Army faction and they folded their

4582
04:44:30,119 --> 04:44:34,040
flag like officially in nineteen ninety I mean, which which

4583
04:44:34,119 --> 04:44:36,279
goes to show and people acting like this was strange

4584
04:44:36,319 --> 04:44:39,880
at the time, but I mean the Epochet it should

4585
04:44:39,880 --> 04:44:41,639
have made sense that it's like, well, I mean, these

4586
04:44:42,479 --> 04:44:45,040
this isn't some fake organization. I mean they hit. They

4587
04:44:45,080 --> 04:44:48,279
did have grassroots support, especially among you know, the student

4588
04:44:48,360 --> 04:44:52,840
population and younger people, but they very much were like

4589
04:44:53,240 --> 04:44:55,840
at operational terms, they were very much like an organ

4590
04:44:55,919 --> 04:45:00,159
of the Sazi and horse to Maller interestingly, u uh,

4591
04:45:00,720 --> 04:45:08,040
he wasn't a direct action element within the bottom Minehoff gang,

4592
04:45:08,479 --> 04:45:10,599
but he was a lawyer who worked closely with them.

4593
04:45:11,439 --> 04:45:13,599
He became he ended up going to prison for quote

4594
04:45:13,639 --> 04:45:17,200
Holocaust denial and quote promoting racial hatred, you know, a

4595
04:45:17,279 --> 04:45:20,639
few years back. And because like immediately after the wall

4596
04:45:20,759 --> 04:45:23,680
came down, like he he took up with the the NPD,

4597
04:45:24,400 --> 04:45:28,639
you know, which is the legacy party of the Socialist Party.

4598
04:45:30,360 --> 04:45:32,119
So I mean there you go, and like people like

4599
04:45:32,240 --> 04:45:37,840
their Spiegel, which says incredibly stupid things with alarming regularity.

4600
04:45:38,319 --> 04:45:40,200
They were like, see this man's insane. He was a

4601
04:45:40,240 --> 04:45:43,159
communist and now he's anti Semitic. But it's like anybody

4602
04:45:43,240 --> 04:45:45,240
with like a fucking brain, Like it's like we're just

4603
04:45:45,360 --> 04:45:49,200
like explicated about you know, uh, why a pro Soviet

4604
04:45:49,279 --> 04:45:52,680
disposition is what any like you know, quote unquote neo

4605
04:45:52,759 --> 04:45:56,200
fascist would basically you know, be be disposed to. I

4606
04:45:56,279 --> 04:46:00,159
mean that's and I that that's I mean that that

4607
04:46:00,799 --> 04:46:02,840
it's just a case in point. I mean, it shouldn't

4608
04:46:02,840 --> 04:46:05,919
surprise anybody, but I they they were interesting. They were

4609
04:46:05,959 --> 04:46:10,439
an interesting case and an interesting element within the Cold War.

4610
04:46:10,560 --> 04:46:13,840
But that's the good film about him, called The Bottom

4611
04:46:13,959 --> 04:46:16,479
Off Complex. I highly recommend it. It's got Bruno gans

4612
04:46:16,520 --> 04:46:19,520
and it's Bruno Ganz. He's the guy who played Adolf

4613
04:46:19,599 --> 04:46:21,279
Hitler in Dirt Untergang.

4614
04:46:23,639 --> 04:46:27,479
Speaker 1: All right, Uh, Muzio Savola over here, five dollars super chat.

4615
04:46:27,560 --> 04:46:30,200
What does Thomas think of Stalin's War by McMeekin.

4616
04:46:30,919 --> 04:46:31,479
Speaker 2: Have you read it?

4617
04:46:32,200 --> 04:46:37,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's shockfull of data and that data is

4618
04:46:37,840 --> 04:46:43,439
well sourced. Other than that, I it's it's typical court

4619
04:46:43,599 --> 04:46:49,400
history that was written in deliberate uh Houstle dialogue with

4620
04:46:49,639 --> 04:46:53,439
uh with Suvarov and Yackham Hoffman, and it came out

4621
04:46:53,479 --> 04:46:57,680
at the same time as Hoffman's book Memory Serves. You know,

4622
04:46:57,840 --> 04:47:02,319
it's just the the implication. Obviously, somehow the Soviet Union

4623
04:47:02,360 --> 04:47:05,840
created the world's first like truly modern like warfare state.

4624
04:47:06,200 --> 04:47:08,639
It created like the mightiest war machine the world has

4625
04:47:08,720 --> 04:47:12,520
ever seen, arguably will ever see. Yet this was exclusively

4626
04:47:12,599 --> 04:47:15,319
for peaceful purposes or for no reason? You know, when

4627
04:47:15,319 --> 04:47:18,439
the Germans attacked for no reason because they're evil. I mean,

4628
04:47:18,520 --> 04:47:23,639
that's I mean that. I maybe it's just me becoming

4629
04:47:23,720 --> 04:47:25,479
cantanker as an old but I think it's just me

4630
04:47:25,639 --> 04:47:29,639
becoming a more rigorous and discriminating historical writer and researcher.

4631
04:47:31,279 --> 04:47:36,400
Anybody who accepts that conceptual narrative is it taints the

4632
04:47:36,639 --> 04:47:40,639
entire rest of their research, even if they're facts and

4633
04:47:40,680 --> 04:47:43,680
their data, like the rot data is good and well,

4634
04:47:43,959 --> 04:47:45,759
so it's nothing wrong with citing those kinds of sources.

4635
04:47:46,400 --> 04:47:48,840
And I'm sure people who dislike me or dislike the

4636
04:47:48,919 --> 04:47:51,040
kinds of things that right will turn around and say, like, well,

4637
04:47:51,639 --> 04:47:54,599
you know, you're just you're abolishing the fact value distinction

4638
04:47:54,680 --> 04:47:56,959
in your own way, and you know you're you're reducing

4639
04:47:56,959 --> 04:48:01,000
a history of polemic No, I'm not, But you don't

4640
04:48:01,040 --> 04:48:03,919
have to be like pro fascists or anything to accept that.

4641
04:48:05,840 --> 04:48:08,959
The Soviet Union was what I just said. It was

4642
04:48:09,040 --> 04:48:13,439
the first fully realized warfare state that was totally mobilized

4643
04:48:13,520 --> 04:48:16,840
for war. It was animated by a doctrine of revolutionary

4644
04:48:16,959 --> 04:48:21,400
warfare and exporting revolution, and it was the single most

4645
04:48:22,799 --> 04:48:26,279
powerful military actor on the world stage. On the eve

4646
04:48:26,319 --> 04:48:30,639
of Barbarossa. And this is the only way to understand

4647
04:48:30,720 --> 04:48:33,400
the Second World War that was, that was the catalyst,

4648
04:48:34,439 --> 04:48:41,720
you know, And as any military type will tell you, capabilities,

4649
04:48:42,000 --> 04:48:45,400
let alone forces and being are not are never benign.

4650
04:48:46,240 --> 04:48:48,040
You know, they only have one purpose, and that is

4651
04:48:48,119 --> 04:48:51,479
to wage war. And the capability to weigh. The capability

4652
04:48:51,560 --> 04:48:56,279
to wage war equates to power in uh it most

4653
04:48:56,319 --> 04:49:02,319
distilled sense and is the currency of politics. That's the

4654
04:49:02,400 --> 04:49:07,959
only currency olypics. Everything else is drestling. So I state

4655
04:49:08,119 --> 04:49:11,240
that is always such a degree as the Soviet Union was.

4656
04:49:11,759 --> 04:49:13,439
Not only is it never tweet be nine, it is

4657
04:49:13,479 --> 04:49:14,799
actually the precise opposite.

4658
04:49:16,560 --> 04:49:20,159
Speaker 1: So Jmr Cowboy asked, was that the same Red Army

4659
04:49:20,240 --> 04:49:22,319
wrangles White Army fought against or.

4660
04:49:22,319 --> 04:49:23,200
Speaker 2: A different one.

4661
04:49:25,400 --> 04:49:27,000
Speaker 3: What we're talking about the Red Army faction.

4662
04:49:29,040 --> 04:49:31,479
Speaker 2: That's what I'll wait and see, but I'm gonna take that.

4663
04:49:32,080 --> 04:49:32,919
I'll take a question.

4664
04:49:33,759 --> 04:49:36,279
Speaker 1: I'll take a question off of off of Twitter from

4665
04:49:36,360 --> 04:49:39,639
under your Europe posts, he said, So, I would like

4666
04:49:39,759 --> 04:49:45,200
to hear mention of a James Gregor brought up in

4667
04:49:45,279 --> 04:49:50,040
Faces a Janus the possibility that instead of Gorbachev, the

4668
04:49:50,119 --> 04:49:52,799
USSR would end up with a version of what basically

4669
04:49:52,880 --> 04:49:54,439
could be called Russian fascism.

4670
04:49:56,319 --> 04:50:01,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't accept that, and Russia's conceptual pole stars

4671
04:50:01,880 --> 04:50:04,119
are totally different. That's why I try to explain to

4672
04:50:04,200 --> 04:50:08,400
people when Moscow talks about you know, when when Moscow

4673
04:50:08,479 --> 04:50:11,400
calls its enemies Nazis. I mean, first of all, Ukrainians

4674
04:50:11,439 --> 04:50:14,400
are are idiots, So I mean they they they'll they'll

4675
04:50:14,439 --> 04:50:16,919
run around like slaughtering slobs and the order with some

4676
04:50:17,040 --> 04:50:19,159
like crazy jew and claim they're doing it like for

4677
04:50:19,200 --> 04:50:21,959
the white race or something, because they're they're fucking crazy

4678
04:50:22,000 --> 04:50:27,439
and they're morons. But beyond that, the uh, the Russians

4679
04:50:27,479 --> 04:50:30,759
lost thirty million people fighting the Third Reich. So like

4680
04:50:31,119 --> 04:50:34,279
they they're they're they call people Nazis and fascists as

4681
04:50:34,319 --> 04:50:37,000
like a stand in for enemy. It's not because like

4682
04:50:37,240 --> 04:50:40,360
they're they're pink haired, fat girls who are into like lesbianism.

4683
04:50:40,439 --> 04:50:42,799
It's not because they're it's not. It's not because they're

4684
04:50:42,840 --> 04:50:45,599
like a bunch of crazy Jewish people. It's not. It's

4685
04:50:45,639 --> 04:50:48,759
not because you know, they they listen to dead Kennedy's records.

4686
04:50:49,080 --> 04:50:55,240
Like it makes conceptual sense the way a kind of

4687
04:50:55,360 --> 04:50:59,439
a kind of nationalist authoritarian Russia that would definitely be possible,

4688
04:51:01,599 --> 04:51:05,080
but it wouldn't It wouldn't look like it would It

4689
04:51:05,119 --> 04:51:09,080
wouldn't look like Mussolini's Italy, did you know, transpose the

4690
04:51:09,119 --> 04:51:11,599
twenty first century, and it wouldn't even look like uh,

4691
04:51:11,919 --> 04:51:14,479
it wouldn't even look like this, you know, the Syrian

4692
04:51:14,599 --> 04:51:17,840
bath rule in Syria. Like it'd be like weirdly Russian.

4693
04:51:18,520 --> 04:51:22,319
Its optics would even if only superficially, be very much

4694
04:51:22,400 --> 04:51:30,439
bound up with Orthodox Christianity. The uh, the uh. The

4695
04:51:30,560 --> 04:51:33,759
military would have disproportionate clout, you know, more than like

4696
04:51:33,919 --> 04:51:36,000
you know, the political cast, which would kind of like

4697
04:51:36,080 --> 04:51:40,319
neutralize any like truly political projects of an ongoing nature,

4698
04:51:40,840 --> 04:51:42,959
you know, Like it'd be it'd be kind of like

4699
04:51:43,840 --> 04:51:45,720
it'd be kind of like ten miles wide and like

4700
04:51:45,840 --> 04:51:48,520
one inch thick. Okay, Like it's not to say it

4701
04:51:48,599 --> 04:51:50,400
be like a weak state, but I'm talking in terms

4702
04:51:50,439 --> 04:51:52,959
of like an ideological chalist there just like wouldn't be

4703
04:51:53,080 --> 04:51:56,080
much there, Okay. I think Russia is Frankly, I think

4704
04:51:56,119 --> 04:51:59,599
when Putin goes, either because he dies or or he

4705
04:51:59,680 --> 04:52:02,720
actually finds a successor that you're not in Russia can

4706
04:52:02,840 --> 04:52:05,880
live with, That's probably what you're going to have Okay,

4707
04:52:06,000 --> 04:52:09,119
but it's not. It's not gonna be it's not gonna

4708
04:52:09,119 --> 04:52:12,560
be fascistic in any meaningful way. And it's not it's

4709
04:52:12,599 --> 04:52:16,319
not gonna be some weird like Eurasianism like Alexander Dugan

4710
04:52:16,439 --> 04:52:19,279
like fantasizes about, like this is not that would have

4711
04:52:19,400 --> 04:52:22,159
no currency, you know, and and if there's something like

4712
04:52:22,159 --> 04:52:25,240
they had to take off the former Soviet republics in

4713
04:52:25,279 --> 04:52:27,959
Central Asia, like the stands to be kind of colloquial

4714
04:52:28,040 --> 04:52:30,799
and like dumb about it, like they'd have to be

4715
04:52:30,880 --> 04:52:34,319
looking to Moscow for their cues like culturally, politically, and

4716
04:52:34,360 --> 04:52:37,639
and and strategically, and they're like not doing that at all,

4717
04:52:38,159 --> 04:52:41,040
you know, Like Eurasianism doesn't have any legs, you know,

4718
04:52:41,080 --> 04:52:43,840
like it's like something cool that Russians like to talk about,

4719
04:52:43,919 --> 04:52:46,400
and that it's like as a thought experiment. It's certainly

4720
04:52:46,520 --> 04:52:49,880
like not impossible, but that the Eurasian moment was the

4721
04:52:49,959 --> 04:52:52,680
Soviet Union, okay, and like that's gone, it's not ever

4722
04:52:52,759 --> 04:52:53,279
coming back.

4723
04:52:55,959 --> 04:53:00,119
Speaker 1: Here's another question from Twitter. How brutal was so Vi

4724
04:53:00,240 --> 04:53:03,200
occupation of Eastern Europe. It always seemed to me that

4725
04:53:03,319 --> 04:53:06,040
Stalin's crimes from the post war era get brushed over

4726
04:53:06,159 --> 04:53:07,639
by mainstream historians.

4727
04:53:08,840 --> 04:53:11,119
Speaker 3: No, that's a great question. And yeah, I saw that

4728
04:53:11,360 --> 04:53:13,799
on my timeline earlier this morning, and it was stuck

4729
04:53:13,840 --> 04:53:20,680
in my mind. There were the true true Soviet brutality,

4730
04:53:20,799 --> 04:53:24,680
true communist brutality in the Soviet Union as well as

4731
04:53:24,759 --> 04:53:29,959
in the states that emulated the Soviet Union reached zenith

4732
04:53:30,000 --> 04:53:34,240
and the revolutionary phase. Uh Soviet Union exterminated around ten

4733
04:53:34,279 --> 04:53:36,520
million people before a shot was fired in the Second

4734
04:53:36,560 --> 04:53:39,799
World War. You know, these were political unreliables, These were

4735
04:53:39,840 --> 04:53:43,639
ethnic groups that the regime didn't like. You know, these

4736
04:53:43,680 --> 04:53:47,880
were people who, as kind McDonald exhaustively researched and pointed

4737
04:53:47,919 --> 04:53:52,680
out in his paper Stalins Willing Executioners, which was very

4738
04:53:52,720 --> 04:53:55,119
cleverly returning to serve a Goldhagen. You know, when you

4739
04:53:55,319 --> 04:53:59,759
something like seventy percent of the NKVD like direct action

4740
04:54:00,080 --> 04:54:03,040
meant was Jewish during like the the the height of

4741
04:54:03,080 --> 04:54:05,479
the revolutionary phase. And these people were just like suddenly

4742
04:54:05,479 --> 04:54:07,479
account so like people they didn't like, you know, whether

4743
04:54:07,520 --> 04:54:10,080
they were Kulos, whether they were like you know, Belarusians,

4744
04:54:10,119 --> 04:54:13,080
whether you know, they there were people who you know

4745
04:54:13,720 --> 04:54:18,720
a lot of radicalized, very very vicious, you know, Jewish

4746
04:54:18,759 --> 04:54:24,319
people under arms didn't like, I mean, this was what

4747
04:54:24,560 --> 04:54:27,840
it was was it was neither it was neither truly organized,

4748
04:54:27,919 --> 04:54:31,599
nor was it truly scattershot. But that's that's really where

4749
04:54:31,599 --> 04:54:34,680
the bodies got stacked up. And there really wasn't there.

4750
04:54:34,799 --> 04:54:39,240
There truly was as a rubber conquest documented you know,

4751
04:54:39,319 --> 04:54:42,959
a Soviet death camp system. I'm not being colloquial or

4752
04:54:43,200 --> 04:54:48,439
using you know, hysterical language or something. They're really brutal aspects,

4753
04:54:50,880 --> 04:54:56,360
programmatic aspects. After the Day of Defeat in nineteen forty five,

4754
04:54:58,400 --> 04:55:02,599
the uh, then the uh, the American authorities were just

4755
04:55:02,680 --> 04:55:06,119
as bad, you know, they uh, they starved out millions

4756
04:55:06,159 --> 04:55:09,880
of Germans. Was endemic, you know, and and and and

4757
04:55:10,080 --> 04:55:12,560
and and if not encouraged, you know, like just just

4758
04:55:12,720 --> 04:55:15,759
tolerated more than tacitly. You know. The the Morgans out

4759
04:55:15,799 --> 04:55:18,799
plan in a sense very much was implemented, although not

4760
04:55:19,040 --> 04:55:22,720
realized to its full event as a vision owing to

4761
04:55:22,840 --> 04:55:29,200
the strategic situation. But I'd say back to your question

4762
04:55:29,880 --> 04:55:32,479
and the kind of four corners of it, the uh,

4763
04:55:32,560 --> 04:55:37,000
the force population transfers, the literal ethnic cleansing from and

4764
04:55:37,639 --> 04:55:40,680
you know of millions of German people from lands that

4765
04:55:40,759 --> 04:55:43,439
they had occupied in some cases for a thousand years.

4766
04:55:45,080 --> 04:55:49,759
That was very much something Washington encouraged in some ways

4767
04:55:50,080 --> 04:55:54,319
participated in the planning of directly, but operationally it was

4768
04:55:54,400 --> 04:55:58,040
the Soviet army and and and police who made that happen.

4769
04:55:59,560 --> 04:56:03,439
My opinion is that's the most uh kinda that's gone

4770
04:56:03,479 --> 04:56:05,880
of the most like that's the strongest example of like

4771
04:56:06,000 --> 04:56:10,520
naked brutality. And I mean people will come back and say, like, well,

4772
04:56:11,360 --> 04:56:16,959
you know, the the Germans were ethnically cleansing you know, uh,

4773
04:56:17,799 --> 04:56:20,240
the Soviet Union, and they were, but it was a

4774
04:56:20,360 --> 04:56:25,560
race war, okay, And there's a difference between that sort

4775
04:56:25,599 --> 04:56:28,680
of activity underway terrible as it is, it's into a

4776
04:56:28,720 --> 04:56:34,360
total war and you know, just perpetuating a programmatic campaign

4777
04:56:34,439 --> 04:56:37,840
of ethnic violence after a cessation of hostilities. You know,

4778
04:56:37,959 --> 04:56:41,080
there's I I don't really think that the latter can

4779
04:56:41,159 --> 04:56:46,200
be justified in any absolute sense. And it's it's not

4780
04:56:47,119 --> 04:56:50,599
it's what about ism o. But the Germans did bad

4781
04:56:50,720 --> 04:56:53,680
things as any place. And also finally, and I know

4782
04:56:53,880 --> 04:56:56,880
nobody asked, but I'm gonna see way my own take. Anyway,

4783
04:56:57,360 --> 04:57:00,200
you know, if you're a man of the West, and

4784
04:57:00,360 --> 04:57:04,599
if you're pro white and if you want your race

4785
04:57:04,680 --> 04:57:07,959
to survive, you even if, even if the Third Wig

4786
04:57:08,119 --> 04:57:10,840
was literally the most evil regime that ever existed, you

4787
04:57:10,880 --> 04:57:13,560
don't you don't. You don't cheer on the ethnic cleansing

4788
04:57:13,680 --> 04:57:16,479
of your own people. I mean, this is this is

4789
04:57:16,680 --> 04:57:21,040
uh brass tax stuff, you know, and one doesn't need

4790
04:57:21,080 --> 04:57:24,799
to be something of died in the little Machiavellian to

4791
04:57:25,000 --> 04:57:30,599
understand aside from that that, uh, you know, politics power,

4792
04:57:30,720 --> 04:57:34,599
politics does take place somewhere beyond beyond a good and

4793
04:57:34,799 --> 04:57:39,119
evil if you'll allow the overused you know kind of

4794
04:57:40,479 --> 04:57:42,080
kind of reference.

4795
04:57:44,439 --> 04:57:49,279
Speaker 1: So you've got a question here, what was the deal

4796
04:57:49,319 --> 04:57:51,639
with the Rosenbergs. You said you'd talk about them in

4797
04:57:51,759 --> 04:57:53,439
one episode, but never got around to it.

4798
04:57:54,479 --> 04:58:01,880
Speaker 3: I totally forgot about that. Yeah, no, we can. I

4799
04:58:01,959 --> 04:58:05,759
thought about having like just a dedicated like atomic age episode,

4800
04:58:05,880 --> 04:58:10,599
you know, like beginning with the proliferation of the bomb

4801
04:58:10,680 --> 04:58:13,319
in nineteen forty nine, forty eight, forty nine, you know,

4802
04:58:13,439 --> 04:58:18,000
going through the the early Cold War and the New

4803
04:58:18,119 --> 04:58:21,400
Look and and you know kind of when when when

4804
04:58:21,439 --> 04:58:24,400
every everybody in the national security of Paratus had like

4805
04:58:24,560 --> 04:58:28,360
you know, atomic weapons on the brain, like through you know, deatons,

4806
04:58:28,400 --> 04:58:32,000
and then finally SDI the Rosenbergs are basically what they

4807
04:58:32,040 --> 04:58:38,200
appeared to be. I think, uh, I certainly don't. They

4808
04:58:38,279 --> 04:58:42,200
certainly should have been executed. I think, uh, at least

4809
04:58:42,279 --> 04:58:45,759
Julius Rosenberg. I think Ethel Rosenberg wasn't like I'm not

4810
04:58:45,840 --> 04:58:47,919
I'm not saying she was just like a stupid woman

4811
04:58:48,040 --> 04:58:51,200
or something. There's plenty of women, particularly in radical politics

4812
04:58:51,279 --> 04:58:54,759
through wherever he's smart and very dangerous. I think Ethel

4813
04:58:54,840 --> 04:58:56,520
Rosenberg was not one of those. I think she was

4814
04:58:56,560 --> 04:58:58,799
kind of along for the ride. Okay, that doesn't excuse

4815
04:58:58,840 --> 04:59:02,520
her whole liability. But Julius Rosenberg, he was kind of

4816
04:59:02,560 --> 04:59:06,319
like an Orthodox like Jewish radical. Not Orthodox Jewish, I mean,

4817
04:59:06,360 --> 04:59:10,200
like an Orthodox radical who was Jewish. But he I

4818
04:59:10,400 --> 04:59:15,840
think I think in some ways though his from what

4819
04:59:16,119 --> 04:59:20,799
by from his own testimony, just to his own intimate,

4820
04:59:20,799 --> 04:59:23,240
it's not under oath or anything, I believe his notion

4821
04:59:23,479 --> 04:59:25,759
was somewhat like that of Chris boys the guy who's

4822
04:59:25,759 --> 04:59:28,599
the subject of The Falcon and the Snowman, although Boyce

4823
04:59:28,639 --> 04:59:32,200
obviously is a far more sympathetic character. I believe, aside

4824
04:59:32,240 --> 04:59:36,799
from Rosenberg's own kind of socialist leanings, he believed in

4825
04:59:36,959 --> 04:59:39,720
order for stability to reign you know, the burgening kind

4826
04:59:39,759 --> 04:59:45,200
of bipolar system and prevent you know, the honset of

4827
04:59:45,240 --> 04:59:48,919
another round of of of of just massive you know,

4828
04:59:49,840 --> 04:59:54,200
interstate violence. There would have to be you know, a

4829
04:59:54,279 --> 04:59:57,520
true balance of forces between the superpowers, and that can

4830
04:59:57,560 --> 05:00:01,520
only be achieved if if, uh if Moscow had the

4831
05:00:01,599 --> 05:00:04,319
mom you know. And again, like I said, like I

4832
05:00:04,560 --> 05:00:06,880
he didn't say this in open quart or something, or

4833
05:00:07,560 --> 05:00:11,599
you know, he didn't he didn't raise us to the judge,

4834
05:00:11,680 --> 05:00:13,599
you know, in the hopes that he'd be spared the gallows.

4835
05:00:13,840 --> 05:00:15,880
These kinds of things he said to like his friends,

4836
05:00:16,319 --> 05:00:22,159
you know, like reading between the lines. H m. That

4837
05:00:22,400 --> 05:00:26,599
was why the Rosenbergers became these kinds why the Rosenbergers

4838
05:00:26,639 --> 05:00:29,279
became these people who were held out by the usual

4839
05:00:29,400 --> 05:00:32,799
suspects that see this, this horrible anti semitic lynching of

4840
05:00:32,880 --> 05:00:35,200
these people. That's incredibly weird because they're about the least

4841
05:00:35,240 --> 05:00:39,520
sympathetic defendants I can think of. But that's there's like

4842
05:00:39,639 --> 05:00:41,759
not really anything there. I mean, it's like Leo Frank,

4843
05:00:41,880 --> 05:00:45,240
like like Leo Frank was uh, Leo Leo Frank was

4844
05:00:45,279 --> 05:00:48,159
a child molester and a murderer, But like you're supposed

4845
05:00:48,159 --> 05:00:51,159
to feel bad that he got lynched, because apparently it

4846
05:00:51,240 --> 05:00:53,520
was like terrible that this guy who like victimized the

4847
05:00:53,520 --> 05:00:55,919
little kids got lynched. I know, I don't know, I

4848
05:00:55,919 --> 05:01:00,240
don't quite understand that, but it's something, uh it goes

4849
05:01:00,240 --> 05:01:02,439
to some of the kind of like moral bankruptcy of

4850
05:01:02,479 --> 05:01:05,400
the of the people who who come to the defense

4851
05:01:05,439 --> 05:01:08,279
of these of these personages and history. Like I'm not,

4852
05:01:08,400 --> 05:01:10,680
I'm not saying that like lynching is good. I mean,

4853
05:01:10,680 --> 05:01:12,759
he's a frank I mean, I I believe in due

4854
05:01:12,799 --> 05:01:15,840
process in a real sense, but I also don't feel

4855
05:01:15,919 --> 05:01:19,479
bad if child molesters and people will harm children get killed, Okay,

4856
05:01:19,560 --> 05:01:22,479
And anybody who makes it out like this is some terrible,

4857
05:01:23,599 --> 05:01:27,959
you know, terrible instance of uh of of of rough justice.

4858
05:01:29,040 --> 05:01:30,799
I mean, I'm not, I'm not And I'm not comparing

4859
05:01:30,840 --> 05:01:33,279
selling nuclear secrets some listing kids at all, like they

4860
05:01:33,319 --> 05:01:36,799
have nothing at all in common, Okay, And I can

4861
05:01:36,840 --> 05:01:41,400
easily see myself like Pat passing nuclear secrets, not the ivan,

4862
05:01:41,639 --> 05:01:44,880
but uh, you know, and the last man is gonna

4863
05:01:44,880 --> 05:01:47,680
sit here and and and I like fucking prissy about

4864
05:01:47,759 --> 05:01:51,479
such things. But you know, if there's in the modern

4865
05:01:51,520 --> 05:01:54,319
era there's really no clear case of high treason than

4866
05:01:54,360 --> 05:01:58,080
what the Rosenberg did and what the Rosenbergs did, except

4867
05:01:58,119 --> 05:02:00,639
maybe for the Cambridge five just in terms of they

4868
05:02:00,639 --> 05:02:05,919
share kind of like gravity of of of their ongoing espionage.

4869
05:02:06,040 --> 05:02:09,400
But yeah, there you go. I realized that was long winded.

4870
05:02:09,479 --> 05:02:11,400
But the short answer is like, there's there's nothing there.

4871
05:02:11,720 --> 05:02:13,880
It's exactly what it appears to be. You're supposed to

4872
05:02:13,880 --> 05:02:17,119
feel bad for Jewish communists for some reason because you know,

4873
05:02:17,360 --> 05:02:20,479
any anytime they face consequences, it's because of med anti

4874
05:02:20,560 --> 05:02:21,599
Semitism or something.

4875
05:02:22,560 --> 05:02:22,680
Speaker 2: Right.

4876
05:02:24,200 --> 05:02:26,639
Speaker 1: I just want to remind people that in the pinned

4877
05:02:27,040 --> 05:02:30,040
comment and the chat there, you can do super chats

4878
05:02:30,080 --> 05:02:33,520
over on entropy. But let's get another question from Twitter.

4879
05:02:34,439 --> 05:02:37,279
In one episode, you mentioned the Marine Corps and Air

4880
05:02:37,360 --> 05:02:40,279
Force were able to adapt to Vietnam but not the Army.

4881
05:02:40,639 --> 05:02:47,840
Speaker 3: Can you elaborate, sure, that's a great question. The Air

4882
05:02:47,919 --> 05:02:50,599
Force was interesting and it was very dynamic in that era.

4883
05:02:50,720 --> 05:02:56,520
We'll started the Air Force first, okay, they became an

4884
05:02:56,560 --> 05:03:00,159
independent service branch. People like Billy Mitchell even before or

4885
05:03:00,520 --> 05:03:04,200
you know, the Second World War. I pushed for that because, uh,

4886
05:03:05,479 --> 05:03:08,119
there was an understanding that you know Army thinking had

4887
05:03:08,159 --> 05:03:10,919
become kind of stagnant, Okay. And also it's just the

4888
05:03:11,040 --> 05:03:14,840
Army was not particularly carptible with with with new technology.

4889
05:03:15,599 --> 05:03:18,159
They just weren't. That's not a polemical take, that's a fact.

4890
05:03:19,279 --> 05:03:23,439
But it's also too it was like the the science

4891
05:03:23,479 --> 05:03:26,639
of aviation, and particularly military aviation, it was something everybody

4892
05:03:26,759 --> 05:03:29,119
was learning by doing. You know, like when Curtis Lamay

4893
05:03:29,200 --> 05:03:33,479
first started flying and you know in the Inner Warriors, Uh,

4894
05:03:33,759 --> 05:03:37,119
that's when pilots were still like flying by like visual

4895
05:03:37,279 --> 05:03:40,560
sight of like you know, terrestrial land features and things,

4896
05:03:41,159 --> 05:03:42,639
you know, and trying to match it up to like

4897
05:03:42,680 --> 05:03:49,240
a paper map. Okay. Now, the Earth Force obviously by

4898
05:03:49,439 --> 05:03:52,759
uh by the time via but by the time the

4899
05:03:53,279 --> 05:03:58,799
real escalation got underway in Vietnam in sixty five, the

4900
05:03:59,000 --> 05:04:05,319
UH there was uh, you know, the Air Force. Uh.

4901
05:04:07,080 --> 05:04:10,959
They'd been their bread and butter was Strategic Air Command.

4902
05:04:11,639 --> 05:04:13,880
And that also is what they owed not just their

4903
05:04:13,959 --> 05:04:18,759
lobbying power too, but also there kind of pre eminent

4904
05:04:19,360 --> 05:04:23,720
position in in the UH, in the kind of American

4905
05:04:23,799 --> 05:04:29,880
defense establishment structure, they were able to pretty rapidly repurpose

4906
05:04:30,040 --> 05:04:36,159
to a conventional role. But a conventional role that was Uh,

4907
05:04:37,119 --> 05:04:40,599
it was difficult to realize. You know, these arc light bombers,

4908
05:04:40,639 --> 05:04:46,159
these BFFD two's, those were those were purpose those were

4909
05:04:46,240 --> 05:04:50,560
those were those were purpose to attack with nuclear weapons, okay,

4910
05:04:50,599 --> 05:04:57,279
and a strategic capacity switching them to a conventional repurposing

4911
05:04:57,279 --> 05:05:02,040
them to a conventional role, you know, in a conflict

4912
05:05:02,119 --> 05:05:07,639
like Vietnam where frankly until uh, you know, nineteen seventy two,

4913
05:05:08,240 --> 05:05:11,279
you didn't even really have like through combin or of

4914
05:05:11,360 --> 05:05:14,159
set piece battles where they could really kind of shine

4915
05:05:15,479 --> 05:05:17,599
the fact that they were able to, you know, kind

4916
05:05:17,639 --> 05:05:21,439
of wreak so much havoc on uh, the ability of

4917
05:05:21,479 --> 05:05:25,479
the North Vietnamese uh, not just reconstitute forces, but you know,

4918
05:05:25,639 --> 05:05:29,000
to uh sustain infrastructure, not just command and control, but

4919
05:05:29,560 --> 05:05:32,240
you know any any know, all kind of basic infrastructure

4920
05:05:32,279 --> 05:05:36,560
relating to the war effort. That's pretty remarkable. And it's

4921
05:05:36,599 --> 05:05:41,639
also the uh it was more more naval aviators, but

4922
05:05:42,159 --> 05:05:45,799
some air force aviators too. They got engaged over the

4923
05:05:45,880 --> 05:05:51,520
battlespace tactically, and uh, Vietnamese pilots are pretty good and

4924
05:05:51,639 --> 05:05:55,119
you're obviously we're Soviet pilots like flying sorties too. As

4925
05:05:55,119 --> 05:05:57,319
it brought dog fighting back, you know that that's the

4926
05:05:57,319 --> 05:06:01,599
all reason why why uh why you know Tagle Air

4927
05:06:01,639 --> 05:06:05,240
Command like uh, you know, got got a boom and

4928
05:06:05,319 --> 05:06:07,720
that's why. Uh, And that's why in the naval side,

4929
05:06:07,840 --> 05:06:10,119
like you know, top gun got created in the first place.

4930
05:06:10,720 --> 05:06:12,759
That's what I meant about the Air Force and against

4931
05:06:12,840 --> 05:06:17,240
the Marine Corps. The Marines, they were used to doing

4932
05:06:17,319 --> 05:06:19,759
more with less just because of the nature of their

4933
05:06:19,799 --> 05:06:24,520
missions and deployments. You know. The Small Wars Manual was

4934
05:06:24,680 --> 05:06:28,959
uh was written by uh, you know officers and n

4935
05:06:29,000 --> 05:06:31,159
c o s who've been fighting in nicaraguall like in

4936
05:06:31,240 --> 05:06:35,240
the twenties and things. The Marines better understood how to

4937
05:06:35,319 --> 05:06:38,159
like you know that the need for you know kind

4938
05:06:38,200 --> 05:06:42,119
of like in the field diplomacy with indigenous elements like

4939
05:06:42,200 --> 05:06:46,560
stuff like that. And the the US Army, you know,

4940
05:06:47,400 --> 05:06:50,080
after World War Two, it was just like senerally obsessed

4941
05:06:50,080 --> 05:06:53,360
with firepower, you know, and like look what they did

4942
05:06:53,400 --> 05:06:56,319
in Vietnam. It's like, uh, you know, let's let's show

4943
05:06:56,400 --> 05:06:59,639
up as heavy as possible. Let's have guys wearing fatigues

4944
05:06:59,639 --> 05:07:02,240
that we don't wearing in the inner German border, you know,

4945
05:07:02,919 --> 05:07:06,880
like carrying around like rations and metal tns, you know, uh,

4946
05:07:07,080 --> 05:07:09,479
and toting like sixty pounds worth of gear on their

4947
05:07:09,520 --> 05:07:11,959
back and like one hundred and ten degree tropical heat.

4948
05:07:12,439 --> 05:07:15,439
Like that's not I mean that that's the whole thing's absurd.

4949
05:07:15,959 --> 05:07:18,880
Like Army Special Forces totally shined, you know. But that's

4950
05:07:19,200 --> 05:07:22,319
but this was before like SOCOM was like it was

4951
05:07:22,360 --> 05:07:25,520
like bros with like goofy beards and sleeved hats who

4952
05:07:25,599 --> 05:07:27,799
like think that they're the police or something like. This

4953
05:07:27,959 --> 05:07:31,159
was when like these guys were like genuine weirdos who

4954
05:07:31,200 --> 05:07:33,439
were like kind of like their own branch the military,

4955
05:07:34,080 --> 05:07:37,520
and they were really they were really up on some

4956
05:07:37,959 --> 05:07:42,840
progressive and dynamic, like tactical doctrines. That's what I meant.

4957
05:07:43,439 --> 05:07:45,479
And I think that in the nineteen sixties Army was

4958
05:07:45,560 --> 05:07:49,279
actually pretty squared away. Okay, they were very very well

4959
05:07:49,360 --> 05:07:54,479
suited to fight Warsaw Pact, but they were not. They

4960
05:07:54,599 --> 05:07:57,439
just lacked like operational flexibility in the with that in

4961
05:07:57,759 --> 05:08:00,599
a way that was needed. But it's just I mean

4962
05:08:00,919 --> 05:08:04,439
the US Army, the US Army had a hell of

4963
05:08:04,520 --> 05:08:06,040
a time in the in the Far East. One of

4964
05:08:06,040 --> 05:08:07,479
the reasons. I like the way The Thin Red Line,

4965
05:08:07,639 --> 05:08:09,319
Like nobody likes that movie, but I think it's a

4966
05:08:09,400 --> 05:08:12,080
dope movie that is like love Terrence mal like, but

4967
05:08:12,159 --> 05:08:14,680
it's about the US Army in the Pacific and like

4968
05:08:14,759 --> 05:08:17,599
nobody thinks about that, and you know it's all about

4969
05:08:17,599 --> 05:08:19,799
the Marines and the Navy, and I mean which and

4970
05:08:19,840 --> 05:08:21,520
then that's where like a lot of naval and marine

4971
05:08:21,520 --> 05:08:23,240
re legends were made. But the U. S R. And

4972
05:08:23,360 --> 05:08:26,560
the Pacific was fubar and like uh like in all

4973
05:08:26,680 --> 05:08:28,560
kinds of ways, not just because it was view as

4974
05:08:28,599 --> 05:08:30,959
the secondary theater, but it's just because like the army

4975
05:08:31,080 --> 05:08:33,400
was fucked up, like fighting in Asia, you know, like

4976
05:08:33,479 --> 05:08:37,479
and they were, it's they they they were not like

4977
05:08:37,560 --> 05:08:39,479
at the command level. I'm not talking about you know,

4978
05:08:39,520 --> 05:08:41,119
the guys in the field like doing you know, not

4979
05:08:41,200 --> 05:08:43,360
talking with the actual infantry man where game is fucked,

4980
05:08:43,919 --> 05:08:46,959
but like the guys making operational decisions. It's like they

4981
05:08:47,000 --> 05:08:50,680
didn't it, like didn't compute that. You know, this was

4982
05:08:50,759 --> 05:08:53,479
not we're not We're not We're not we're not fighting

4983
05:08:53,599 --> 05:08:56,200
Verdun or bellow Wood, you know, just against the against

4984
05:08:56,200 --> 05:08:59,360
the jabs. You know, it's not all the same. Yeah,

4985
05:08:59,360 --> 05:09:00,919
That's what I'm meant. But I'm not I'm not a

4986
05:09:01,000 --> 05:09:05,200
military man, so I mean look at me obviously, okay,

4987
05:09:05,319 --> 05:09:08,479
but I I'm sure that military will say, I don't

4988
05:09:08,479 --> 05:09:11,439
know what the hell I'm talking about, but I I

4989
05:09:12,200 --> 05:09:15,040
mean whatever, Okay, I mean that's that's my position. I

4990
05:09:15,119 --> 05:09:16,080
think I can back it up.

4991
05:09:17,680 --> 05:09:22,639
Speaker 1: So over here on YouTube Viva Crista re Is, he

4992
05:09:22,720 --> 05:09:25,119
has a comment and then a question says, I saw

4993
05:09:25,599 --> 05:09:28,200
I saw a B one Lancer flying low over Chicago

4994
05:09:28,319 --> 05:09:30,439
the other day. I thought Red Dawn was happening, but

4995
05:09:30,560 --> 05:09:32,599
it was just opening It was just opening day for

4996
05:09:32,680 --> 05:09:33,159
the Cubs.

4997
05:09:34,840 --> 05:09:37,759
Speaker 3: Now they're they're, uh that that aircraft, as you know,

4998
05:09:37,919 --> 05:09:40,080
I mean, that was meant. Uh, that was that was

4999
05:09:40,279 --> 05:09:43,479
that was meant to go in low, going fast, uh

5000
05:09:43,599 --> 05:09:46,479
and strike super hard on targets and in the Soviet

5001
05:09:46,599 --> 05:09:50,479
Union with nuclear weapons, it was. It was a bad bitch.

5002
05:09:51,319 --> 05:09:53,000
And the B two was the B two. It was

5003
05:09:53,000 --> 05:09:55,599
a it's immediate successor. It was a B one on

5004
05:09:55,720 --> 05:10:01,880
steroids with stealth capability. Yeah, it's uh, it's a fascinating aircraft.

5005
05:10:02,560 --> 05:10:06,439
And the Ivan's answer to that was the backfire, or

5006
05:10:06,479 --> 05:10:09,720
what NATO called the backfire. It was, uh, its actual

5007
05:10:09,799 --> 05:10:13,840
name is the TUPELIV something. But yeah, no, that's you see, uh,

5008
05:10:14,959 --> 05:10:17,759
you see some uh you see some cool aircraft over

5009
05:10:18,279 --> 05:10:19,319
orger Chicago game.

5010
05:10:20,279 --> 05:10:23,639
Speaker 1: So his question was why was the Soviet Union and

5011
05:10:23,799 --> 05:10:27,919
Company so hostile to freemasonry and why was the sentiment

5012
05:10:28,040 --> 05:10:30,080
shared with their right Hegelian enemies.

5013
05:10:32,720 --> 05:10:37,159
Speaker 3: I'm not an expert on freemasonry at all. What I

5014
05:10:37,279 --> 05:10:42,319
do know about it is that uh people on the

5015
05:10:42,439 --> 05:10:45,919
right always hated freemasonry, and like in America, Freemasonry like

5016
05:10:46,080 --> 05:10:47,520
is nothing and all some people in the commerce are

5017
05:10:47,520 --> 05:10:49,880
gonna be like O bullshoot like they wrote everything or whatever,

5018
05:10:50,080 --> 05:10:54,240
like there's I can like you have. It wasn't like

5019
05:10:54,279 --> 05:10:58,680
fraternal organizations that have way more cloud than is now

5020
05:10:58,799 --> 05:11:01,479
than the Freemasons and America, like the Masons are actually

5021
05:11:01,560 --> 05:11:03,919
viewed as kind of like lower bougie kind of trashy

5022
05:11:03,959 --> 05:11:06,400
stuff here by a lot of people. They are I'm

5023
05:11:06,400 --> 05:11:07,919
just telling you what I'm not saying. I think that

5024
05:11:08,000 --> 05:11:09,319
I'm telling you that's the way like a lot of

5025
05:11:09,360 --> 05:11:12,479
fucking people look at it, especially like social registered types

5026
05:11:12,560 --> 05:11:15,000
back when they had clout in Europe as a totally

5027
05:11:15,000 --> 05:11:20,319
different story. The uh the Freemasons are reviewed by uh

5028
05:11:21,680 --> 05:11:25,279
by by the Third Reich as like Roasta Crucian types,

5029
05:11:25,599 --> 05:11:28,159
you know, they're like these fifth columnists, who are you know,

5030
05:11:28,159 --> 05:11:31,880
they're degenerate. They're they're they're neither loyal to race, nor king,

5031
05:11:32,040 --> 05:11:36,159
nor country nor kin. You know, they're they're they're you know,

5032
05:11:36,200 --> 05:11:40,319
they're they're basically, uh, they're basically like a bourgeois fraternal

5033
05:11:40,400 --> 05:11:46,119
society that's intrinsically subversive, you know, and that is you know, uh,

5034
05:11:46,799 --> 05:11:50,840
these these these people, these people can't be relied upon

5035
05:11:50,959 --> 05:11:53,400
because they're only loyalty is to is this kind of

5036
05:11:53,439 --> 05:11:56,439
like odd set of beliefs which every reality often is

5037
05:11:56,560 --> 05:12:01,560
nothing deeper than kind of cover for uh, you know, ambition,

5038
05:12:01,680 --> 05:12:04,200
ambitious social climbers to pretend as if there's you know,

5039
05:12:04,200 --> 05:12:06,639
it's some kind of deeper ethos to their you know,

5040
05:12:06,720 --> 05:12:10,799
to their convetousness of station and things. Okay, In terms

5041
05:12:10,840 --> 05:12:13,159
of the Russians, I don't have a good understanding of

5042
05:12:13,240 --> 05:12:17,680
Russian culture at all. I don't readers speak Russian. I Uh,

5043
05:12:18,159 --> 05:12:20,200
I think I've got a good understanding of their political

5044
05:12:20,240 --> 05:12:23,599
heritage and how their decision making process in war and

5045
05:12:23,680 --> 05:12:27,400
peace terms plays out. But I I cannot tell you,

5046
05:12:27,560 --> 05:12:31,000
like what the Russian take is on Freemasonry, Like why

5047
05:12:31,040 --> 05:12:34,520
the Ivens like viewed them as insidious, like why why

5048
05:12:34,880 --> 05:12:38,400
why the Germans viewed them that way? And this proceeded

5049
05:12:38,520 --> 05:12:41,799
like the you know, the the national social revolution, but

5050
05:12:42,040 --> 05:12:45,119
why why the why the Third Reigen in particular like

5051
05:12:45,279 --> 05:12:48,319
viewed them as like a a an undesirable element, Like

5052
05:12:48,400 --> 05:12:55,319
that's why there's a dedicated Uh, there's a there's a

5053
05:12:55,400 --> 05:13:04,479
dedicated police uh creeple department or directorate, uh, dedicated to

5054
05:13:04,759 --> 05:13:08,159
like spying on Freemasons. And like I think in some capacity,

5055
05:13:08,279 --> 05:13:10,759
like it endured after the war, like a memory serves

5056
05:13:10,880 --> 05:13:15,240
like when, uh, when when the West German when the

5057
05:13:15,240 --> 05:13:18,520
Buddhist republic like national police were restructured, and like that's

5058
05:13:18,560 --> 05:13:21,799
when like GSG nine became this like badass special ops force.

5059
05:13:22,360 --> 05:13:24,479
Like I think I remember reading something like they were

5060
05:13:24,520 --> 05:13:26,759
still like spying on Freemasons and fucking with them, and

5061
05:13:26,759 --> 05:13:28,599
they made a bunch of people mad, like oh, this

5062
05:13:28,720 --> 05:13:30,759
is like you know nuts use some rebooks like godar

5063
05:13:30,840 --> 05:13:33,360
you like uh, but yeah, I don't, I don't have

5064
05:13:33,400 --> 05:13:34,880
any insight in on that man, Like you'd have to

5065
05:13:34,919 --> 05:13:38,799
talk to the Russian fellas in our circles or or

5066
05:13:38,840 --> 05:13:40,000
some of the European guys.

5067
05:13:43,159 --> 05:13:47,119
Speaker 1: Where was the one of The other questions was, can

5068
05:13:47,200 --> 05:13:51,119
you give your opinion of Yuri Besmanoff.

5069
05:13:54,240 --> 05:13:55,959
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't really have one because I haven't

5070
05:13:56,040 --> 05:13:57,840
I haven't like read enough of his stuff, like what

5071
05:13:58,479 --> 05:14:02,880
what uh like specifically like his take on Peristrika and

5072
05:14:03,000 --> 05:14:07,240
glass nos or like character or what it's honestly, what's it?

5073
05:14:07,840 --> 05:14:10,639
Speaker 1: There's a famous video in nineteen eighty two eighty three

5074
05:14:10,799 --> 05:14:15,639
where he he's talking about how it was a Soviets

5075
05:14:15,680 --> 05:14:22,959
who subverted the subverted the yeah, the institutions and everything

5076
05:14:23,000 --> 05:14:23,919
that basically every.

5077
05:14:24,000 --> 05:14:25,880
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, he's one of those

5078
05:14:25,919 --> 05:14:30,680
guys who he the guys who yeah, the Peristrika deception,

5079
05:14:30,959 --> 05:14:32,439
like the guys the same guys who were to that,

5080
05:14:32,639 --> 05:14:35,919
like cite him a lot, I don't. The Soviet Union

5081
05:14:36,040 --> 05:14:38,680
was basically what it appeared to be man from UH

5082
05:14:40,240 --> 05:14:44,319
from especially from President of Onward. I cruised if was

5083
05:14:44,400 --> 05:14:46,959
kind of a wild card in like policy terms, I

5084
05:14:46,959 --> 05:14:50,880
don't mean like ideological terms, but it I mean like

5085
05:14:51,080 --> 05:14:55,319
the the subversion something was coming from Moscow. It UH

5086
05:14:57,159 --> 05:15:00,520
in the in the in the in the the labor

5087
05:15:00,680 --> 05:15:04,919
movement was UH was truly a national phenomenon with with

5088
05:15:05,040 --> 05:15:10,720
political cloud manufacturing economy, the terrestrial manufacturing, like national economics

5089
05:15:10,799 --> 05:15:14,959
was the order of the day, you know, really until uh,

5090
05:15:16,040 --> 05:15:19,119
until nineteen sixty they're about, Yeah, you better believe that.

5091
05:15:19,439 --> 05:15:23,240
Uh you better believe the common term in later common

5092
05:15:23,400 --> 05:15:27,400
form they were. They were totally insinuated into that, you know.

5093
05:15:27,599 --> 05:15:30,520
And there was major unions that were shot through with

5094
05:15:30,680 --> 05:15:34,479
like Soviet influence. Okay, last gas at was like the

5095
05:15:34,560 --> 05:15:37,799
Welsh minor strike, so like the Kremlin was pouring a

5096
05:15:37,880 --> 05:15:42,439
munch money into those efforts. Okay, But that's the reason why.

5097
05:15:42,520 --> 05:15:46,400
And again I view it as a very imperfect signifier

5098
05:15:46,599 --> 05:15:48,880
for all kinds of reasons. But I understand why people

5099
05:15:48,919 --> 05:15:53,959
about cultural Marxism. Digital Marxist Leninism does not emphasize culture.

5100
05:15:54,119 --> 05:15:57,439
Everything is superstructure. It's all labor, it's all production, it's

5101
05:15:57,479 --> 05:16:01,159
all capital, you know, it's all it's all how people's

5102
05:16:01,200 --> 05:16:07,400
conceptual horizons and social behavior and and and and and

5103
05:16:07,560 --> 05:16:11,840
class and cast structuring like derives from labor and production

5104
05:16:11,919 --> 05:16:15,400
to schema. You know. So like if you asked, like

5105
05:16:15,520 --> 05:16:18,200
even the most radical kind of mark like traditional Marxist

5106
05:16:18,240 --> 05:16:20,799
lenin Is in nineteen fifty, if you like ask them

5107
05:16:20,799 --> 05:16:24,919
about stuff like homosexuality, or like feminism or like about

5108
05:16:25,040 --> 05:16:27,040
race relations. You just like tell you like, none of

5109
05:16:27,080 --> 05:16:30,720
that is important, Like these are bourgeois fixations or concerns,

5110
05:16:30,799 --> 05:16:34,119
and you know, over to the alienation of of the

5111
05:16:34,360 --> 05:16:38,080
of you know, not just the not just the exploited proletariat,

5112
05:16:38,439 --> 05:16:40,680
but you know the people who profit from it. You know,

5113
05:16:40,959 --> 05:16:44,639
they exist also in debate circumstances and you know, not

5114
05:16:44,880 --> 05:16:47,479
not being not being invested in actual like you know,

5115
05:16:47,680 --> 05:16:51,159
power processes of production, as humans need to be you know,

5116
05:16:51,279 --> 05:16:54,159
to live, you know, psychologically healthy lives. You know, they're

5117
05:16:54,240 --> 05:16:56,720
they're drawing upon you know, these these kind of super

5118
05:16:56,759 --> 05:17:00,639
structural meaningless like ephemora, like the surrounds, like human life.

5119
05:17:00,799 --> 05:17:03,119
These are these things don't matter. Like that's literally what

5120
05:17:03,200 --> 05:17:06,639
their take would be, Like they'd have no they have

5121
05:17:06,720 --> 05:17:10,119
no interest. They either have no interest and these kinds

5122
05:17:10,119 --> 05:17:16,159
of culture aspects that we are so familiar with, or

5123
05:17:16,639 --> 05:17:20,799
they'd say, you know, that's just not important. You know, Okay,

5124
05:17:20,919 --> 05:17:22,919
it was interesting, maybe it's useful, maybe it can be

5125
05:17:22,959 --> 05:17:26,799
exploded to some discreete purpose, but it's just not important.

5126
05:17:27,319 --> 05:17:32,040
You know. That's that's the key difference. So when these

5127
05:17:32,119 --> 05:17:34,720
Bircher types would talk into the eighties about how like

5128
05:17:34,880 --> 05:17:39,040
everything bad that happens is coming from Oscow. I mean,

5129
05:17:39,119 --> 05:17:41,159
that was like a fucked up perspective of all kinds

5130
05:17:41,159 --> 05:17:43,799
of reasons. And it's just like, I mean not not

5131
05:17:46,119 --> 05:17:49,240
sensible and pregnant reasons and obvious ones. But that's also

5132
05:17:49,400 --> 05:17:52,560
just like not that is not what like Sowetism was about.

5133
05:17:52,840 --> 05:17:54,000
You know, it just wasn't.

5134
05:17:57,479 --> 05:17:59,959
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about talk a little more about

5135
05:18:00,080 --> 05:18:09,040
Latin America and how why was the Marxism of Moscow?

5136
05:18:09,240 --> 05:18:13,799
Why was the way Moscow ran things ran things so

5137
05:18:15,360 --> 05:18:20,400
attractive to so many in Latin America, I.

5138
05:18:20,479 --> 05:18:24,680
Speaker 3: Mean, because the whole Marxist Leninist uh, particularly Leninist you

5139
05:18:24,759 --> 05:18:30,240
read Lenin's imperialism, the process that he describes like in

5140
05:18:30,319 --> 05:18:35,279
today's terms, the legacy of Marxism is is global systems theory,

5141
05:18:36,959 --> 05:18:40,240
you know, like a manual Wallerstein kind of stuff. Okay,

5142
05:18:41,880 --> 05:18:44,720
even after Marxist Leninism kind of like lost its animating

5143
05:18:44,759 --> 05:18:49,080
power and kind of context and much of the world still,

5144
05:18:49,400 --> 05:18:55,040
especially kind of some of its successor iterations captured sort

5145
05:18:55,080 --> 05:18:59,840
of the the fascination of Latin Americans because it it

5146
05:19:00,279 --> 05:19:03,919
very much was contextual error. Okay, like Latin America was

5147
05:19:04,319 --> 05:19:09,880
and is kind of this hyper exploited, primitive economic backwater,

5148
05:19:10,439 --> 05:19:12,840
you know that's like resource rich in terms of things

5149
05:19:12,880 --> 05:19:18,279
like agricultural commodities and not really owing to any kind

5150
05:19:18,279 --> 05:19:21,479
of conspiracy, but gowing definitely to kind of structural design.

5151
05:19:22,000 --> 05:19:24,759
It remains mired in this kind of primitiveness, you know,

5152
05:19:24,919 --> 05:19:27,360
owing to the kind of odd racial dynamics. There's like

5153
05:19:27,520 --> 05:19:31,159
this incredibly sharp cast distinction, you know, like there's uh

5154
05:19:32,279 --> 05:19:36,560
like pretty much every kind of cliche that uh, you know,

5155
05:19:36,639 --> 05:19:39,520
from the Leninists, specifically the Leninist kind of play bulk

5156
05:19:39,599 --> 05:19:44,279
of history that's described, uh that describes capitalism and punitive terms,

5157
05:19:44,639 --> 05:19:47,400
you know, is like very is like plainly evident in

5158
05:19:47,560 --> 05:19:51,639
Latin America. Okay, and again not not for conspiratorial reasons,

5159
05:19:51,759 --> 05:19:54,080
but for you know, the peculiar and kind of somewhat

5160
05:19:54,119 --> 05:20:00,599
tragic heritage of the region. That's why it's it's interesting

5161
05:20:00,680 --> 05:20:05,119
you raised that. I was reading the Wilton Center, which

5162
05:20:05,400 --> 05:20:08,159
I think is kind of abominable in a lot of ways,

5163
05:20:08,240 --> 05:20:14,200
but their archives are very useful and very interesting. When

5164
05:20:14,319 --> 05:20:18,720
Bush and Scowcroft Bush forty one obviously, and Baker and

5165
05:20:18,840 --> 05:20:24,159
Helmet Coal, you know, we're negotiating with Garbagehew, particularly as

5166
05:20:24,200 --> 05:20:28,240
regarded specifically as you know, the art Tree, but generally,

5167
05:20:29,479 --> 05:20:32,319
you know, the kind of extancies related to ending the

5168
05:20:32,360 --> 05:20:37,439
Cold War, something that Coal and Bush and Scowcroft also

5169
05:20:37,560 --> 05:20:40,000
to Gorrishev was like, look like, however, we leave this,

5170
05:20:40,560 --> 05:20:43,439
you know, assuming that you know, we can cut terms

5171
05:20:43,520 --> 05:20:46,240
on a nuclear weapons, assuming we can come to terms

5172
05:20:46,319 --> 05:20:49,080
on you know, a basically complete drawdown and forces and

5173
05:20:49,159 --> 05:20:51,560
being in Europe. You know, he's like, we need your

5174
05:20:51,599 --> 05:20:54,400
guarantee that your satellites in Latin America are gonna stop

5175
05:20:54,400 --> 05:20:57,080
exporting revolution, you know. And obviously they couch this in

5176
05:20:57,279 --> 05:20:59,520
like the language of diplomacy and in the language of

5177
05:20:59,720 --> 05:21:03,159
of of of American propaganda, you know, like subverting the

5178
05:21:03,240 --> 05:21:06,720
democracies in Latin America. But this is very much on

5179
05:21:06,799 --> 05:21:09,599
their mind, which is fascinating, and this makes sense. But

5180
05:21:09,840 --> 05:21:12,840
that's that's why. And but there's also I mean, like

5181
05:21:13,000 --> 05:21:19,639
Latin people's are they're uh, they're they're they're political romantics, man.

5182
05:21:19,680 --> 05:21:21,279
You know, I'm not saying that like to make fun

5183
05:21:21,319 --> 05:21:23,520
of them or in a negative way, like quite the contrary.

5184
05:21:23,560 --> 05:21:26,319
It's like it makes them like effective partisans, you know,

5185
05:21:26,479 --> 05:21:29,240
so you're gonna you're gonna be able to get You're

5186
05:21:29,240 --> 05:21:30,759
gonna be able to get a bunch of Kubanos. There

5187
05:21:30,759 --> 05:21:33,880
are a bunch of Argentines or a bunch of Salvadorans.

5188
05:21:34,200 --> 05:21:36,680
You're gonna be able to get them to kind of

5189
05:21:36,799 --> 05:21:39,439
export the revolution in a way that you wouldn't a

5190
05:21:39,479 --> 05:21:41,680
bunch of North Koreans. Okay, I mean, let's be honest.

5191
05:21:42,159 --> 05:21:44,159
I mean it's like all those things. It's like historical

5192
05:21:44,240 --> 05:21:47,919
as anthropological, it's it's it's cultural, it's dare I say racial?

5193
05:21:48,319 --> 05:21:49,520
I mean that's why.

5194
05:21:53,119 --> 05:21:56,720
Speaker 1: Well do you had mentioned before we started going live

5195
05:21:56,919 --> 05:21:59,040
that there were a couple of things you might want

5196
05:21:59,040 --> 05:22:00,360
to comment on your self.

5197
05:22:00,479 --> 05:22:03,159
Speaker 2: Is there anything you uh he wanted to get out there?

5198
05:22:05,319 --> 05:22:06,880
Speaker 3: I just yeah, I want to. I want to and

5199
05:22:06,959 --> 05:22:09,159
we will deal with this more in a dedicated pass

5200
05:22:11,840 --> 05:22:15,880
and more kind of events discussion. But I the degree

5201
05:22:15,919 --> 05:22:22,279
of which the uh what people like Bush forty one, Scowcroft, Baker,

5202
05:22:22,880 --> 05:22:26,279
Nixon himself, and I mean make mistake like Nixon Platt

5203
05:22:26,279 --> 05:22:28,159
a key role in ending the Cold War, like the

5204
05:22:28,279 --> 05:22:33,200
vision that they had for world order. Obviously, you know

5205
05:22:33,439 --> 05:22:36,279
I don't agree with that vision, but there was something

5206
05:22:36,439 --> 05:22:40,200
noble about it and something both pragmatic and uh and

5207
05:22:40,360 --> 05:22:43,159
developed about it, the degree to which this was just

5208
05:22:43,319 --> 05:22:47,840
utterly sabotaged, deliberately thrown in the trash, so that uh,

5209
05:22:49,319 --> 05:22:53,759
you know, we could have you know, we can have

5210
05:22:53,799 --> 05:22:59,080
this kind of free for all uh in in these

5211
05:22:59,439 --> 05:23:02,720
states like Ukraine, and they can be turned against Russia's

5212
05:23:02,880 --> 05:23:06,119
as these kind of like suicide torpedoes, you know, with

5213
05:23:06,240 --> 05:23:09,840
the ultimate purpose in mind of you know, ultimately deteriorating

5214
05:23:09,919 --> 05:23:12,799
Russia's ability to defend itself from such a text the

5215
05:23:12,840 --> 05:23:16,080
point that you know it it Russia can be stript

5216
05:23:16,080 --> 05:23:21,040
of its natural wealth and looted. I mean that's incredibly grotesque, man,

5217
05:23:21,200 --> 05:23:27,360
Like everything everything about how what developed subsequent term you know,

5218
05:23:27,439 --> 05:23:30,439
the bush Baker regime is this grotesque. That's the only

5219
05:23:30,520 --> 05:23:33,400
word for it. And it really is. It's it's it's

5220
05:23:33,639 --> 05:23:36,040
it literally is criminal, you know, and that should That's

5221
05:23:36,040 --> 05:23:38,240
why I get still offended when these idiots like wave

5222
05:23:38,279 --> 05:23:40,959
these like Ukrainian flags, like like what they're cheering on,

5223
05:23:41,880 --> 05:23:46,119
Like you're you're you're cheering on destruction and mass homicide

5224
05:23:46,200 --> 05:23:48,560
literally for no reason, you know, for the profit of

5225
05:23:48,599 --> 05:23:51,560
a handful of incredibly evil people, you know, like this,

5226
05:23:52,040 --> 05:23:53,759
the fact that anybody can look at that is like

5227
05:23:53,840 --> 05:23:56,799
some good thing or that that's like preferable to like

5228
05:23:56,919 --> 05:24:02,000
what was accomplished in UH nineteen nine. It's just unconscionable, Okay.

5229
05:24:02,040 --> 05:24:03,680
And I realized it's a board of ignorance because these

5230
05:24:03,680 --> 05:24:05,720
people don't know anything, but it's that doesn't make it

5231
05:24:05,720 --> 05:24:10,919
any less disgusting, you know, And I I behoove people.

5232
05:24:11,000 --> 05:24:14,720
I want to do a dedicated Gulf War episode because

5233
05:24:15,479 --> 05:24:18,360
that that's a that's a natural kind of like bookend

5234
05:24:18,439 --> 05:24:21,880
to the Cold War, not just like in linear terms,

5235
05:24:21,919 --> 05:24:25,360
but like in conceptual ones, and that I want people

5236
05:24:25,360 --> 05:24:27,520
to understand why I defend Bush forty one a lot.

5237
05:24:27,520 --> 05:24:29,720
I don't defend Bush forty one because I like, I

5238
05:24:29,880 --> 05:24:33,439
like these fucking Yale assholes, or because like I have

5239
05:24:33,560 --> 05:24:36,959
something to common with social registered types. I get tired

5240
05:24:36,959 --> 05:24:38,759
of that too. Like I don't like when people call

5241
05:24:38,840 --> 05:24:40,720
me like a quote wasp. It's like, look at me, like,

5242
05:24:40,759 --> 05:24:43,119
don't be fucking basic. Do I look like a wasp

5243
05:24:43,200 --> 05:24:44,720
to you? Like, you know, if I wanted to be

5244
05:24:44,799 --> 05:24:47,360
a wasp, which I don't like, I would never ever

5245
05:24:47,560 --> 05:24:52,040
be allowed like in their environs. Okay, Like de fact. Uh,

5246
05:24:53,240 --> 05:24:55,119
you know, yeah, there is like some sort of like

5247
05:24:55,319 --> 05:24:58,119
tribal commonality between people like me and the bushes, but.

5248
05:24:58,240 --> 05:25:01,639
Speaker 1: It's I'm gonna I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna out

5249
05:25:01,680 --> 05:25:05,240
you right now. But your last name is like Norman dynasty.

5250
05:25:07,360 --> 05:25:10,439
Speaker 3: No, I mean that's true. Like, uh, but I I've

5251
05:25:10,479 --> 05:25:13,720
got some people in my LEAs were like incredibly like prestigious,

5252
05:25:13,720 --> 05:25:15,919
but we're also like unbmolievably fucking trashy.

5253
05:25:18,319 --> 05:25:23,479
Speaker 2: Same, it's same, same, But like my point is, like.

5254
05:25:23,479 --> 05:25:25,599
Speaker 3: If I showed up at if I showed kinds of

5255
05:25:25,639 --> 05:25:27,799
places that like the boishes hang around like, un if

5256
05:25:27,799 --> 05:25:30,119
I was like flush of money, like I'd be like

5257
05:25:30,200 --> 05:25:32,200
showing the door, even if I was, like even if

5258
05:25:32,200 --> 05:25:33,799
I was, you know, if I wasn't you know, like

5259
05:25:34,319 --> 05:25:36,000
you know, even if I like got a haircut and

5260
05:25:36,200 --> 05:25:38,840
was like behaving myself. I guess that's kind of my point.

5261
05:25:38,919 --> 05:25:43,080
But aside from all of that, like you know, we

5262
05:25:43,599 --> 05:25:46,200
we we don't need to agree with you know, the

5263
05:25:46,319 --> 05:25:50,479
kind of conceptual perspective of like Nixon or forty one.

5264
05:25:51,000 --> 05:25:54,240
But these guys were motivated by good intentions, you know,

5265
05:25:54,520 --> 05:25:56,520
at least as much as intentions can be good like

5266
05:25:56,599 --> 05:26:00,919
in power political manner. And even if they weren't, I mean,

5267
05:26:00,919 --> 05:26:02,959
even like let's say let's play Devil's abac and say, oh,

5268
05:26:03,000 --> 05:26:05,720
there's nothing good about this and like moral terms, but

5269
05:26:06,040 --> 05:26:09,439
it was, it was incredibly ambitious and it was you know,

5270
05:26:10,080 --> 05:26:13,119
it was world transforming in a way that is laudable

5271
05:26:13,279 --> 05:26:17,959
and for it, you know, the the uh, the kind

5272
05:26:18,000 --> 05:26:20,240
of impactful list of things like that I think is

5273
05:26:20,479 --> 05:26:23,080
is it represents like a good and its own terms.

5274
05:26:23,119 --> 05:26:27,240
And the uh, the fact that that was immediately succeeded

5275
05:26:27,279 --> 05:26:31,360
by these like you know, by by these conceptual literates

5276
05:26:31,439 --> 05:26:34,319
and and just you know, like like literal like bandits,

5277
05:26:34,400 --> 05:26:37,639
you know, say, just just like bandits MAFIOSI, like, you know,

5278
05:26:37,840 --> 05:26:40,080
just kind of like the lowest of the low, like uh,

5279
05:26:41,319 --> 05:26:47,919
like kind of human carrion animals, eaters of the dead. Literally.

5280
05:26:48,439 --> 05:26:52,000
I mean that that's uncomfortable and that's and also it

5281
05:26:52,319 --> 05:26:54,560
also I mean it forces a question as to what

5282
05:26:55,560 --> 05:26:59,240
you know, what what I mean you know, people people

5283
05:26:59,400 --> 05:27:02,759
fought and waging the Cold War. I'm not talking I'm

5284
05:27:02,799 --> 05:27:04,439
not talking about these fools in Washington. I mean like

5285
05:27:04,479 --> 05:27:07,639
regular guys, you know, and this was this was this

5286
05:27:07,799 --> 05:27:09,720
wasn't the time, and you got you got a draft card,

5287
05:27:09,799 --> 05:27:11,680
you got forced to do it. You know what we

5288
05:27:11,720 --> 05:27:14,520
didn't have like this like Dickhead police department for an army,

5289
05:27:14,599 --> 05:27:18,200
you know, like it was you know, like what basically

5290
05:27:18,279 --> 05:27:21,520
like all the sacrifices that those guys made, you know, uh,

5291
05:27:22,439 --> 05:27:24,479
and they were they were a bunch of white Christian

5292
05:27:24,560 --> 05:27:29,319
guys mostly. Uh. That was essentially like completely fucking neutralized

5293
05:27:29,599 --> 05:27:32,000
among everything else by this by this kind of like

5294
05:27:32,279 --> 05:27:38,680
you know, uh Semitic crusade against you know, Byzantium. But yeah, no, yeah,

5295
05:27:38,759 --> 05:27:39,680
this was really great. Man.

5296
05:27:39,919 --> 05:27:43,439
Speaker 1: I hope we got one. We got an we got

5297
05:27:43,520 --> 05:27:47,200
a lake if you're okay with that. It's from williams

5298
05:27:47,360 --> 05:27:48,680
over on Entropy.

5299
05:27:49,880 --> 05:27:51,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, would NATO.

5300
05:27:51,520 --> 05:27:53,919
Speaker 1: Would NATO have been able to hold West Germany in

5301
05:27:54,000 --> 05:27:55,720
a seven days to the Rhine scenario?

5302
05:27:58,000 --> 05:28:02,959
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so. No, definitely not. And that's

5303
05:28:03,000 --> 05:28:06,479
what that was. That is an interesting point a game

5304
05:28:06,599 --> 05:28:12,200
that scenario, like many many times with a couple with

5305
05:28:12,360 --> 05:28:14,680
with a couple of different game platforms, and I think

5306
05:28:14,759 --> 05:28:19,040
are are basically the variables are the variables they chose

5307
05:28:19,080 --> 05:28:22,240
to code and when they code and are basically accurate. No,

5308
05:28:22,439 --> 05:28:25,880
the only thing that that that was William Odom's UH

5309
05:28:27,159 --> 05:28:31,639
A big concern because UH, the only thing that would

5310
05:28:31,680 --> 05:28:36,080
have stopped that onslaught is UH is theater nuclear weapons, Okay,

5311
05:28:37,400 --> 05:28:43,520
and to hold UH if to hold UH, to hold

5312
05:28:43,560 --> 05:28:45,880
warsaw bag armor and say nineteen eighty five in the

5313
05:28:45,919 --> 05:28:48,959
North German plane and the fold the gap. You know,

5314
05:28:49,040 --> 05:28:54,520
if you're gonna you're gonna start, You're you had to

5315
05:28:54,520 --> 05:29:00,400
start hitting them with miss and Pershing Two's okay, And

5316
05:29:00,560 --> 05:29:04,799
what would the Soviets do? You know? UH? Would they like?

5317
05:29:04,880 --> 05:29:07,959
Would they escalate, I mean to counter value with salt?

5318
05:29:08,080 --> 05:29:10,240
I mean, I don't know. But even if they didn't,

5319
05:29:10,439 --> 05:29:13,560
it's like, okay, well, now now the Bones Republic is

5320
05:29:13,759 --> 05:29:16,759
is a nuclear battlefield, you know. I mean that's and

5321
05:29:16,880 --> 05:29:21,759
that's somewhat pure. But I don't no, I don't think UH,

5322
05:29:23,159 --> 05:29:27,200
I don't think no. I they War's up Pact would

5323
05:29:27,200 --> 05:29:31,240
have UH War's up pack would have reached UH what

5324
05:29:31,400 --> 05:29:33,400
would have reached the Ryan in five to seven days

5325
05:29:33,479 --> 05:29:36,799
and UH and and nothing could have stopped them. The

5326
05:29:38,040 --> 05:29:41,639
the idea was NATO war planning was like late in

5327
05:29:41,680 --> 05:29:43,520
the game. I'm talking like kind of the final literation

5328
05:29:43,759 --> 05:29:49,200
of UH of of NATO war gaming was that uh

5329
05:29:50,439 --> 05:29:56,439
the UH American, UH, British and UH and Benelux UH

5330
05:29:56,759 --> 05:29:59,479
tankers like the British and the Benelux guys, they were

5331
05:29:59,479 --> 05:30:02,799
a response for the North German plane like American uh

5332
05:30:03,080 --> 05:30:05,959
and like a look like black horses the fold the gap. Basically,

5333
05:30:08,200 --> 05:30:12,000
they the idea was that if they could hold warsaw

5334
05:30:12,080 --> 05:30:17,000
pack for seventy two hours, NATO could be rapidly reinforced

5335
05:30:18,799 --> 05:30:23,240
and uh uh presumably like stage uh you know, a

5336
05:30:23,319 --> 05:30:27,560
counter offensive that uh you know, under best of circumstances,

5337
05:30:27,720 --> 05:30:30,639
uh would have been able to hold uh the enemy

5338
05:30:30,720 --> 05:30:34,319
at the north at the inner German border. But it's

5339
05:30:34,400 --> 05:30:38,560
a fascinating question. I highly recommend Russell Stofeley's uh stuff

5340
05:30:38,639 --> 05:30:42,720
on UH on NATO and he he gained a lot

5341
05:30:42,759 --> 05:30:44,919
of this stuff with a bunch of former Wehrmacht officers.

5342
05:30:44,959 --> 05:30:47,919
It's really freaking cool. But yeah, that's a great question, man,

5343
05:30:48,080 --> 05:30:49,400
I mean, I love that kind of stuff.

5344
05:30:50,080 --> 05:30:52,599
Speaker 1: Year Robert in the comments as seven days they would

5345
05:30:52,639 --> 05:30:57,479
have been in Rotterdam and antwarpon, they would.

5346
05:30:57,279 --> 05:30:58,959
Speaker 3: They would have been chilling on the river era like

5347
05:30:59,159 --> 05:31:00,319
like whistling rooms.

5348
05:31:01,720 --> 05:31:04,520
Speaker 1: All right, man, do your plugs and we'll end this.

5349
05:31:04,880 --> 05:31:07,759
We really appreciate I know everyone appreciate this. We got

5350
05:31:07,759 --> 05:31:10,759
one hundred and twenty six people watching on a on

5351
05:31:10,880 --> 05:31:13,400
a last minute unannounced stream, So.

5352
05:31:14,159 --> 05:31:17,439
Speaker 3: No, awesome man, no I I yeah again, sorry man,

5353
05:31:17,520 --> 05:31:19,279
like I was feeling probably since the guy, I feel

5354
05:31:19,279 --> 05:31:20,639
a lot better now, I feel from you, since I

5355
05:31:20,680 --> 05:31:25,400
got back from Lynchburg, and I should have announced, like

5356
05:31:25,560 --> 05:31:26,840
check with you if you want to do this sooner,

5357
05:31:26,919 --> 05:31:29,439
but I I I'm stoked that I'm stoked that people

5358
05:31:29,520 --> 05:31:32,319
were happy with this kind of change in format. It

5359
05:31:32,360 --> 05:31:37,520
seemed appropriate. But you can find me on substack at

5360
05:31:37,599 --> 05:31:40,880
real Thomas seven seven seven that substack dot com. Probably

5361
05:31:41,159 --> 05:31:44,240
most the people who tuned in regularly know that the

5362
05:31:44,400 --> 05:31:49,000
channel is on track. I uh, I've been apologizing well

5363
05:31:49,000 --> 05:31:51,520
being kind of inerd lately because I've been I've needed

5364
05:31:51,560 --> 05:31:53,119
time to get back to people because I was feeling

5365
05:31:53,159 --> 05:31:56,159
really shitty. But every like we're on track for like

5366
05:31:56,240 --> 05:32:00,240
production and stuff, and a bunch of a bunch of

5367
05:32:00,279 --> 05:32:03,200
people been donating to like help explain the process, like

5368
05:32:03,279 --> 05:32:04,959
which is awesome. And I mean, like I said, I

5369
05:32:04,959 --> 05:32:08,040
included the caveat, like if we raise zero dollars that

5370
05:32:08,159 --> 05:32:11,799
is totally fine. Like nobody should feel obligated to you know,

5371
05:32:12,000 --> 05:32:16,840
to to to donate, you know, harder in cash, just

5372
05:32:16,919 --> 05:32:19,799
for the sake like exciting, like content production, like the

5373
05:32:19,919 --> 05:32:22,439
something is important in this world that we do something

5374
05:32:22,520 --> 05:32:25,200
is not so important, like our content is not one

5375
05:32:25,200 --> 05:32:27,159
of those more important things. But like a bunch of

5376
05:32:27,200 --> 05:32:29,720
people have donated and that is that that's like incredible, man,

5377
05:32:29,759 --> 05:32:32,400
and that like that just is dope. But don't anyone

5378
05:32:32,439 --> 05:32:34,919
ever feel obligated, man, like one hundred percent, Like I'm

5379
05:32:34,959 --> 05:32:39,560
not just being like gracious, but we're still on burb app.

5380
05:32:39,720 --> 05:32:43,400
I'm gonna disengage as the summer goes on, but right now,

5381
05:32:43,560 --> 05:32:45,959
that's right, drop a lot of stuff just kind of

5382
05:32:46,000 --> 05:32:48,680
like housekeeping stuff as well as like you know, notifying

5383
05:32:48,720 --> 05:32:52,080
people we're doing. It's real all caps R E A

5384
05:32:52,279 --> 05:32:56,000
L underscore number seven h m as seven seven seven.

5385
05:32:56,599 --> 05:32:58,599
I'm still on t gram. I'm gonna up my t

5386
05:32:58,759 --> 05:33:01,119
gram game and get more active there, especially as I

5387
05:33:01,240 --> 05:33:05,240
kind of like slide back from Burbap. I'm on Instagram.

5388
05:33:05,479 --> 05:33:09,759
I'm TikTok, and TikTok is like fucking retarded, but like

5389
05:33:09,799 --> 05:33:14,240
a lady friend of mine, like uh uh she had

5390
05:33:14,240 --> 05:33:16,159
the idea that, like I can make some funny TikTok

5391
05:33:16,240 --> 05:33:18,560
videos and I'm gonna start like experimenting with that some

5392
05:33:19,599 --> 05:33:21,159
and she only takes them to like nuke me for

5393
05:33:21,319 --> 05:33:24,919
like you know a number of things. But uh, yeah,

5394
05:33:24,959 --> 05:33:29,279
that's where we're at right now, man, and you know,

5395
05:33:29,400 --> 05:33:33,959
and then June ninth, uh Unlike some fucking people who

5396
05:33:33,959 --> 05:33:36,639
will go a named who like organize like really gay

5397
05:33:36,720 --> 05:33:39,319
events where gay things go on, and they like charge

5398
05:33:39,360 --> 05:33:41,639
people like fucking half a stack to like go hear

5399
05:33:41,639 --> 05:33:44,919
about gay stuff like once a year or so, Like

5400
05:33:45,040 --> 05:33:47,560
I just see if people like convenient shytown to hang out.

5401
05:33:47,680 --> 05:33:49,360
And like last year, we want to see craft work

5402
05:33:49,400 --> 05:33:51,880
and it was fucking awesome. Like this year, we're gonna

5403
05:33:51,880 --> 05:33:55,200
go see the murder junkies at Reggie's in on the

5404
05:33:55,319 --> 05:33:57,680
South Loop. If you're gonna like scrounge you up like

5405
05:33:57,759 --> 05:34:01,279
fifteen dollars and get here, like you can go. It's

5406
05:34:01,319 --> 05:34:04,439
like fifteen bucks at the door. But uh, a lot

5407
05:34:04,479 --> 05:34:08,560
of people are are excited about that from what I'm

5408
05:34:08,840 --> 05:34:11,520
leaning from the feedback. So it's June nights if you

5409
05:34:11,560 --> 05:34:13,240
want to go, like save the date, And like I said,

5410
05:34:13,319 --> 05:34:14,599
last year, we had a lot of fun, man, and

5411
05:34:14,720 --> 05:34:16,759
well will you hang out and stuff too, like before

5412
05:34:16,759 --> 05:34:19,880
we enter the show. But that yeah, that's that's all

5413
05:34:19,919 --> 05:34:21,279
I got man for Mike Flugs.

5414
05:34:21,799 --> 05:34:24,319
Speaker 1: All right, man, I'm gonna stop the recording now and

5415
05:34:24,400 --> 05:34:26,240
then uh YouTube afterwards.

5416
05:34:26,319 --> 05:34:28,720
Speaker 2: So uh, thanks a lot until the next time.

5417
05:34:29,439 --> 05:34:30,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, man.

5418
05:34:33,840 --> 05:34:34,599
Speaker 2: I want to thank.

5419
05:34:34,479 --> 05:34:37,200
Speaker 1: Everyone on YouTube who showed up to uh at the

5420
05:34:37,319 --> 05:34:41,159
last minute, I mean, this was more than we expected

5421
05:34:41,799 --> 05:34:44,520
at the last minute. And uh, thank you for the

5422
05:34:45,119 --> 05:34:48,040
the couple people who dropped dropped super chats. I really

5423
05:34:48,080 --> 05:34:52,040
appreciate that, especially since YouTube has basically taken away all

5424
05:34:52,119 --> 05:34:54,119
my monetization and everything.

5425
05:34:54,319 --> 05:34:57,919
Speaker 3: So no, that's that's uh yeah, they're they're freaking vultures, man,

5426
05:34:58,080 --> 05:35:00,119
But no, this this was great man. Again, thanks thank

5427
05:35:00,200 --> 05:35:05,240
some thanks for abiding the kind of change in format.

5428
05:35:06,200 --> 05:35:08,159
Just like I said, a lot of people, I mean

5429
05:35:08,240 --> 05:35:12,360
not just lately, but like since we started the series

5430
05:35:12,560 --> 05:35:15,000
they wanted like a Q and a kind of format,

5431
05:35:15,080 --> 05:35:16,799
so I figured that it would this would be like

5432
05:35:16,880 --> 05:35:18,680
a good time for it. So yeah, this was this

5433
05:35:18,840 --> 05:35:19,400
was great man.