WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.799 Meaning a light man like this man letting butterfly flapping 2 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:07.759 and wing big down in a force, man and go 3 00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:08.800 cause the tree. 4 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:12.160 Fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man, Nobody see it. 5 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:12.919 Nobody else. 6 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:19.920 See. You don't need no Manila. 7 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:23.800 You followed hitherto and you got back to that. That's 8 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:26.679 the way, man go Blackly Dan on the Panama Man. 9 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:29.719 You don't matter man anyway. 10 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:38.320 All right, Father Emmanuel Levinson, welcome to the show. 11 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:41.039 Great to join you, Jay, Thank you so much for 12 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:43.359 the invitation. I was really looking forward to this conversation. 13 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:48.200 Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. One of your 14 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:51.679 assistants reached out to me and I was aware of 15 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:55.840 your work distantly, but he sent me some some video 16 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:59.640 y'all had done on Christian Zionism and it was instantly 17 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:01.960 fast and so I'm very glad to have you on. 18 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:04.920 So before we dig into that, if we could just 19 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:07.400 a little bit of background on you, Well, who are 20 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:09.239 you and how do you end up here? 21 00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:14.560 Sure? So, my name is Father Emmanuel Lemmeilson. I'm a 22 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:17.439 Greek Orthodox priest. I was born in the US, but 23 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:20.719 spent some part of my life in Greece growing up. 24 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:25.680 I currently live in Europe, in Central Europe, and I've 25 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:28.319 served parishes. I guess this July will have been a 26 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:32.879 priest for fifteen years. I've served parishes in New England, Massachusetts, 27 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:40.400 from mont Hahampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and also in Europe, Turkey, Greece, Italy, 28 00:01:41.319 --> 00:01:44.760 Switzerland and so forth. So I've had a chance to 29 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:47.480 see Orthodoxy around the world. It's been a real privilege. 30 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:49.920 I'm a married priest. Most of our clergy and the 31 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.599 Northox Church are married. I have a wonderful wife we 32 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:55.519 say petes viteta in Greek, which is the wife of 33 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:58.400 a priest, and I have four beautiful children. 34 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:05.640 So I'm curious how did you come to be interested 35 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:10.599 in Christian Zionism, Because for me, as an American Southerner, 36 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.280 it's the water I swim in. I can't go anywhere 37 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:16.800 without seeing it. You know, when I drive to, you know, 38 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:19.639 my farmer's place to pick up my milk and my meat, 39 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:24.400 I see a big, a big sign not at his farm, 40 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:27.639 and another one that says please pray for Israel, with 41 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:29.599 sort of a combination of, you know, the cross and 42 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:32.599 the Star of David. So you could understand why someone 43 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:35.360 like me would start to notice. But for you in 44 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:37.439 New England, which you know I've spent a good amount 45 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:40.039 of time, there seems to be less of a cultural feature. 46 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:41.960 How did you become interested in it? 47 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:45.599 Yeah, to the extent it is less of a cultural 48 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:47.719 feature in New England. That would be a bit of 49 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:51.520 an irony because Zionism as it were actually began with 50 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.719 Puritans in the sixteenth century, the same cohort, which would 51 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:59.280 of course eventually populate New England. So people often think 52 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.960 it's a Jewish concept or idea, but it was really 53 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:06.919 co opted by the Jewish community in England from the 54 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:11.000 Puritan community. But how I became interested in it? And 55 00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:13.159 by the way, when you talk about your roots in 56 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:15.280 the South, for some reason, I think of the great 57 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.639 movie Oh Brother, Where art thou with George Clooney. Are 58 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:20.120 you familiar with it? You get this, you know, the 59 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:24.039 Bible salesman and the John Goodman. I guess it always 60 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.680 comes to mind as a sort of image of you know, 61 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:31.840 Christian Zionism, Christian nationalism in that epoch in America, which 62 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:34.919 is still I guess there's still vermicial culturally alive in 63 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:37.840 the South. But I think what sort of brought my 64 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:40.439 attention back to it a couple of years ago, was 65 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:45.400 the onset of the hostilities in Gaza and just seeing 66 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:50.680 the whole cell liquidation of a people and our most 67 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:56.800 contemporary and vivid and high definition version of genocide in 68 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:01.919 our modern world. It's the stain on our society. It's 69 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:05.159 it's the shame for all of us in humanity that 70 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:10.240 had happened. It's not I'm not justifying the poor innocent 71 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.280 people lost their lives in Israel on that fateful day 72 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.720 when they were attacked, but there is no justification for 73 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:19.600 what happened in Gaza, and now with generally what's happening 74 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:23.199 in the former Palestinian territories and now we see happening 75 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:26.040 in Lebanon. So a couple of years ago we decided 76 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:28.079 to address it in an early podcast that was I 77 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:29.600 think it was our episode eleven. It was right when 78 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:31.360 we got started with our podcast, so if you were 79 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:33.160 to go back and watch it, you'd have to forgive 80 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:37.519 the production quality a little. But I was entitled the 81 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:41.160 Criminalization of Christianity, which at first you would think, well, 82 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:44.360 what has happened with Christian Zionism, But as we work 83 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:46.360 through it and then we'd later did an episode on 84 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:52.240 the atrocities in Gaza. You know, it was pretty evident 85 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:56.519 to us that the political form of I guess they 86 00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:00.439 call it Christianity, Christianity is ju dais and two Days 87 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:06.240 was going to be incredibly not only incredibly politicized, but 88 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:11.439 incredibly destructive and violent and lead to a lot of bloodshed. 89 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:14.240 And I just saw the writing on the wall maybe 90 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:15.959 two and a half years ago, and so we started 91 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.560 producing these podcasts. So now we did those two elipisodes, 92 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:20.600 one on the Conversation in Christianity, which talked about Jewish 93 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:23.600 lobby during the Palestinian protests and college campuses back in 94 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:27.639 twenty twenty four, which you might recall, and the repeated 95 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:32.120 efforts to institute new legislation that would essentially make certain 96 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:35.879 passages in Holy Scripture legal, and looking at where that 97 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.439 was going and sort of the connections with what's happening 98 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:41.639 in Israel and what really is a lobbying arm for 99 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:43.399 the state of Israel as far as I'm concerned to 100 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:46.839 the United States, and then just seeing that the loss 101 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:49.000 of innocent life. The numbers are even if you want 102 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:50.720 on the conservative side, to the numbers of what happened 103 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:52.959 in Gaza, the loss of life to women and children, 104 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:56.600 which we've been conditioned to normalize. I guess now the 105 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:00.879 leadership in Israel, you know, it's sort of friendly refers to, 106 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:03.720 you know, the Gaza strategy in Lebanon, Now, these are 107 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:07.879 Christian lands, formerly Christian landesmic Arabs and Christians both occupy 108 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:10.480 these areas, and so we see the destruction of historically 109 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:16.079 important and incredibly important sites in Syria, Palestine and now Lebanon. 110 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:19.720 It's really the extinction of Christianity in that region. And 111 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.800 ironically via the conduit, the political conduit for that is 112 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:27.639 very often the Christian Zionists in America, which are really 113 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:29.000 leading to the spilling of that blood. 114 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:35.560 There are several things there. To me, it's been very 115 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:41.040 interesting to watch as someone who's been kind of fascinated 116 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:46.000 by America's foreign wars in the theology that justifies them. 117 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:50.240 For a long time, that was a minority pursuit. That 118 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.600 was something for the kind of nerds to be blunt 119 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:57.600 about it, who cared about history and philosophy. Yeah, but 120 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:03.240 it's been dramatically mainstreamed, and I think about the sort 121 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:06.439 of anti war movement of the Bush era which was 122 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:09.600 sort of this wide coalition. Sure there were a lot 123 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.519 of kind of you know, crazy lefty types, but also 124 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:16.600 the kind of more traditional what we would call either 125 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:20.199 paleo conservatives, the tea party crowd, right, the good normal 126 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:23.000 Americans who basically said, look, I want to be a 127 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:26.240 country again. And you know, just due to changes in 128 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:28.920 the news cycle or whatever, that sort of died out 129 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:31.639 for ten years plus or minus. War wasn't big in 130 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:35.120 the news. But the combination of and I don't mean 131 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:38.879 to get into a detailed discussion of every one of these, 132 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.480 but you know, sort of one scandal after another. You know, 133 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:43.879 the Epstein scandal, which has a, to put it mildly, 134 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:49.079 a heavily ethnic component to it, the situation in Gaza 135 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:53.120 and the dramatic reaction in the US, which is certainly 136 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:57.360 something to mention. And then this absolutely disastrous war in Iran. 137 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:01.720 It's become almost impossible to hide from it. And you 138 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:05.720 see topics that were ten to fifteen years ago completely 139 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:08.839 and totally vote the sort of thing that you know, 140 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:12.040 if you muttered them in a bar, you'd get beat 141 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:15.360 up and thrown out. Now I have friends over who 142 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:20.319 are not particularly political, who go to church have wives 143 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:23.759 and kids and don't care about this sort of in 144 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:26.040 depth things that people who listen to this podcast do 145 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.800 are saying things casually that even now, you know, as 146 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.519 someone who's been on the internet forever, I still have 147 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:36.279 a hard time wrapping my head around this being normal conversation. 148 00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:39.120 And I say that not to you know, inject a 149 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:44.919 personal anecdote, but to say it has become undeniable that 150 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:49.799 the Israel lobby effectively seems to control a large part 151 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:53.799 of allegedly the most powerful nation in the world. And 152 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:55.480 so you look at this and you say, well, wait 153 00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:59.799 a minute, I was naive enough to assume that America 154 00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:04.639 was country run by and for Americans. And I say 155 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:06.840 that not to you know, make some nativist point, not 156 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:08.960 to beat my chest and say, you know, immigrants go 157 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:11.840 home or anything, but to say, at a very fundamental level, 158 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.039 I think that a lot of people are disgusted by 159 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:20.519 this because you mentioned the genocide and Gaza, and I 160 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:22.720 think for a lot of people, if this were simply 161 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.080 a tragedy happening somewhere that we were in no way 162 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.919 involved in, it would be regrettable. But what can you do? 163 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.440 But I think what rankles many people myself included is 164 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.200 that it's my money. I am required to fund this, 165 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.480 and I am required to fund the extermination of Christians, 166 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:46.279 and if I object to that, as you mentioned earlier, 167 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.360 in states like Florida or others, may well be thrown 168 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:53.480 in jail. And I think that the theological issues are 169 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:56.360 very real. We will get into it, but this ground, 170 00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:58.679 the sort of upswelling of objection, I think is on 171 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.759 a much much more basic level of I'm getting shaken 172 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:05.320 down so that people like me that I have something 173 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:09.440 in common with can be exterminated. And it's no shock 174 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:13.320 that people are upset by this. But Father, I want 175 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:20.000 to get into the roots of American Zionists. You mentioned 176 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:23.639 the Puritans and my friend Bagbee, who I mentioned to 177 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:27.360 you earlier, and I have done a number of episodes 178 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:33.000 sort of chronicling the different groups which made up early America, 179 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:38.159 including the Puritans, and one of the most interesting conclusions 180 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:45.039 of that is that the Puritans burned through religion. They 181 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:49.120 didn't necessarily keep their faith in the Triune God, but 182 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:53.919 many of their instincts towards these kind of utopian social plans. 183 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:57.679 Those state that culture is still alive even if it 184 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:02.399 is not necessarily interested in God per se. But I'll 185 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:04.480 throw it back to you after this rant on what's 186 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:08.639 supposed to be an interview show. Can you trace that 187 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:11.679 line of American Zionism from the Puritans? 188 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:11.919 Right? 189 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:13.759 How did they see it? And where does it go 190 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:14.279 from there? 191 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:19.000 Sure you know it's Sir Arthur Cronan Doyle had a 192 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:21.960 wonderful saying that there's nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. 193 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.000 And if you think about that, he was the great 194 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:30.559 British author. And if you really think about it, you 195 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:34.159 have the Protestant Reformation right in the sixteenth century, and 196 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:39.720 they're really miffed at abuses in the Catholic Church, and 197 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:43.320 they eventually come to this concept of solo scriptura, right, 198 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.279 which everyone knows and they associate with the Protestants, But 199 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:50.039 it really goes back to solo scriptura, the idea that 200 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:52.720 sort of the Word of God, the literal interpretation of 201 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:56.919 the Holy Scriptures is everything. It's the alpha and the omega. Well, 202 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:00.080 by that understanding of scripture, and if you don't have 203 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:02.080 a concept of an old and a new Testament is 204 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:05.600 being delineated the sort of as Christ would say, you 205 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.480 can't put new wine and old Wineskins, as these prestants 206 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:12.879 had presence, did not understand and not conceive of that. 207 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:17.480 Then for them this idea began to emerge, and without 208 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:20.000 the benefit of a hierarchy and authority of tradition in 209 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:22.679 the Church, that you had to have a restoration of 210 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:26.200 Israel and the Jewish people to the Holy Lands for 211 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:28.559 the second Coming of Christ. It's that simple. It actually 212 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:30.279 goes right back to sol Scripture, and a lot of 213 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:31.919 people don't think about that, but that is actually the 214 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.639 genesis of it. So if you look at early figures 215 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:39.600 like Thomas Brightman or Francis Katt, and this was I 216 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.399 think in the fifteen eighties, I want to say, you know, 217 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.720 that's really where it began. And Kat at least for 218 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:51.519 his part, was ultimately I think he was burned at 219 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:53.360 the steak, I want to say. I mean, he was 220 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:57.320 definitely put to death. So you know, the Church at 221 00:12:57.320 --> 00:12:59.879 that time understood the seriousness of this jew days and carriers. 222 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:01.759 I'm not saying that they should have put them to death. 223 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:04.039 That shouldn't be the penishment bunch friends, shouldn't be the 224 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:08.600 consequence of by any means. But that is the genesis 225 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:10.480 of it though, and that gets right to the heart 226 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:13.120 of it. And then once this became mainstream, and then 227 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:16.840 you had these early sort of Jewish thinkers who were 228 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.759 you know, the roots of Zionism began as a political 229 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:24.759 movement in the early nineteenth century. You know they It's 230 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:27.200 kind of ironic that it was really these this Christian 231 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:31.840 we call it a cult almost the Puritans, that gave 232 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:33.879 them the fodder, that gave them the tools to take 233 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:38.759 what originally was thought of as a religious idea or concept, 234 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.080 idea of a promised land, and turned into a secular 235 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:44.759 political movement, which is Zionism. So it's sort of ironic. 236 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:48.080 And then of course with the Protestant information itself being 237 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:53.080 blowback from the corruption of Rome and its own its 238 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:58.039 own we can say theological errors, ecclesiogological errors that put 239 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:00.879 this emphasis on worldly power and authority, which is a 240 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:06.440 sort of Pelagianism. You could say even that is ironic, 241 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.360 because then ultimately, even in later centuries, the Catholic Church 242 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:12.799 itself would be infiltrated by Zionists, and it is to 243 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:16.399 this day a lot of Catholics don't realize that. So 244 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:23.200 you have this pervasive novel theology in Christian Zionism, and 245 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:26.879 you've got this underlying sort of ethnophilitism and Zionism that 246 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:29.120 has really just become a secular political movement for the 247 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:31.799 re establishment of Israel and of course not a Greater 248 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:36.519 Israel project. And ironically it is infected. It's very core 249 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:38.840 and roots. So it's become, like I say, almost a 250 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:42.120 political conduit. It's become and it is even now. I mean, 251 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:48.879 I think secular Israel, the secular Israeli leadership in the 252 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.799 Kinesset must be laughing this whole time that you have 253 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:56.759 these cohortive Americans funding with very large dollar amounts this 254 00:14:57.080 --> 00:15:01.639 political ambitions of another kind of and then you have 255 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.200 very zealous Catholics who are very vocal and well organized administratively, 256 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:08.519 who are completely blind to the fact that their own 257 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.720 organization is completely zion not completely, but a large part 258 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:15.519 infiltrated by Zionism as well. So it's it's a total mess. 259 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:20.360 You could say, are you familiar with a book? Not 260 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:22.759 remember the writer? I was looking for it and spelled 261 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:25.399 it too poorly to find it. It's called The Incredible 262 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.159 Incredible Scofield in his book. 263 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.399 I've heard of it, I haven't read it. 264 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:34.440 It's it's fascinating. Uh, I would recommend it. It's a 265 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:36.519 little dry, but you know, it's a reference book. What 266 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:37.039 are you going to do? 267 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:39.120 Or they love references? 268 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:43.879 Fair what he does is the author, I say he, 269 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:45.879 I'm not sure if it was multiple people whatever. This 270 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:51.159 book goes through the proliferation of the Schofield Reference Bible, 271 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.600 which happened at a very interesting time in American Christianity 272 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:01.080 after what they call the Modernist Crisis. Basically, what happened 273 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:04.200 is that more than about one hundred and twenty years 274 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.840 ago rough dates here, that there was sort of an 275 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:12.720 unbroken chain of American institutions, from local churches to at 276 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:16.279 the top end things like the Ivy's right, Harvard produced ministers. 277 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:19.840 They would go down and sort of form an American 278 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:22.679 clergy class. And what had happened in kind of the 279 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:27.679 early twentieth century, late nineteenth is that Modernism is sort 280 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.720 of run them up through these institutions. You would see 281 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:33.000 the sort of outgrowth of this in the so called 282 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.000 like Scopes Monkey Trial, but basically those institutions had completely 283 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:40.320 and totally secularized. There's a bunch of great cartoons from 284 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.799 the time right where it's like walking down the steps, 285 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.559 and the steps are, you know, denying the Trinity, and 286 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.200 then you go all the way down to the bottom 287 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.159 and it's Sodom and Gomora and you're like, all right, okay, 288 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:51.639 maybe a little bit of an exaggeration, but not by much. 289 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:55.720 But point is, this created a break between the sort 290 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:59.919 of traditional chain that defined American church life. And so 291 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.159 so you had a number of a large number of 292 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:11.240 small town churches that had been used to receiving their priests, 293 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.480 their preachers whatever they called them, from institutions like Harvard, 294 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.640 any university you can name, and all of a sudden 295 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:20.680 they're coming back and they're saying, oh, you know, the 296 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.400 virgin Birth didn't happen. Christ didn't really rise from the dead. 297 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.000 And so they're like, well, we're not taking pastors from 298 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:28.880 you anymore. You don't believe anything. And so this is 299 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.359 where we see the birth of the Bible College. Right, 300 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:35.359 these sort of low church institutions predominantly in the American South, 301 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:39.319 where you are training lay people to preach. And roughly 302 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:43.920 the same time we see the proliferation of the Schofield 303 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.759 reference Bible. And the Schofield Reference Bible was unique in 304 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:51.240 the sense that it was a commentary and the King 305 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:55.119 James Bible one next to the other, and also had 306 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:59.000 basically pre made servants. So if you were a guy 307 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.640 who was not all trained and all of a sudden, 308 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:04.559 we need a new preacher, well, this book is ready 309 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.440 made for you. Schofield is an interesting character in his 310 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.200 own right. He was disbarred, he was sort of a 311 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:14.720 known con man. But the really interesting thing is this 312 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:21.119 is really where we see explicit American Zionism become very 313 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:25.599 very popular in Low Church Protestantism. It was one of 314 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:29.480 those things that it was an academic belief but just 315 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.559 not spoken about much, because if you live in Tupelo, Mississippi, 316 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.880 what do you care, right, it is not relevant to 317 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.839 you at all, until all of a sudden, this ready 318 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:44.279 made sort of preacher in a box kit comes with 319 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.720 extremely explicit support for the re establishment of the of 320 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:53.039 a Jewish state in Israel, this kind of John Hagy 321 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.720 esque view of the end times, right, that there needs 322 00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:58.839 to be re establishment of a Jewish state so that 323 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:00.960 the Battle of Armageddon can have and all that kind 324 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:05.160 of crazy stuff. And basically that is where it becomes. 325 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:09.480 It starts spreading like a wildfire. If you are conspiratorially minded. 326 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.039 You can read that book. Found out where he got 327 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:14.680 the idea or the money to publish such a thing. 328 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.519 His members got to come, yeah, you don't have to 329 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:19.680 be I I didn't mention. 330 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:21.799 I didn't mention. Our later three episodes, I think it's 331 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:24.400 episode forty one, forty two, and maybe forty five, we 332 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:27.279 did a three part series on Christian nationalism. We just 333 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:31.119 talked especially specifically about Cyrus Scawfield and the Scawfield Reference Bible, 334 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:33.039 and that episode that's the one that actually got the 335 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:36.359 Cape million views. But yeah, it's like the making of 336 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:38.559 an American snake oil salesman, you know, like you said 337 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:40.720 by the loan of box rated go, you know, no 338 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.920 real academic training or formation in a seminary, no involvement 339 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.759 with spiritual father, none of the traditional formative process. They 340 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:50.400 go into the making of a real elder of the church, 341 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:54.039 not presbyter of a priest. You know, these are cheap imitations. 342 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:57.720 They're pastors. And you know, if you want I'm sorry 343 00:19:57.920 --> 00:19:58.960 ex me no, no. 344 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:01.039 And I was going to say, and on that point, 345 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.240 if you believe Whitney Webb, who I happen to, you know, 346 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:08.119 she has her foibles, but she's an interesting journalist. She's 347 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:12.279 tracked the amount of money that specifically comes from Lacouth 348 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:20.519 massive into these sort of megachurches. Jerry Folwell Senior, who 349 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:23.319 according to people I know who've met him, was personally 350 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:26.759 a good guy. I'll set that aside. He was getting 351 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.359 massive amounts of money from Monacam Bacon. They bailed out 352 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:33.880 his university. They gave him a personal private jet, and 353 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:37.759 d Netanyahu would come visit him before the President. He'd 354 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:41.680 fly into this tiny, little regional airport, then drive up 355 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:44.440 to DC. So the reason I bring that up Friars 356 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.680 is not to you know this, but just for context 357 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.279 for the audience. Of course, this is not simply I mean, 358 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:53.440 there is theology to it, right, We're not going to 359 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:58.240 deny that, but to say there's a deliberate operation to 360 00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:01.160 sort of recruit these people as part of a foreign 361 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.880 influence campaign. Sorry, I'll kick it back to you. 362 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:06.880 Yeah, no, it's true, and just a minor crestia. So 363 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.079 Friars are a Catholic order of monks, but Orthodox we 364 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.720 just say father for a priest. Oh I'm sorry, No, No, 365 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:14.880 it's okay. I wouldn't want to be a mistaken as Catholic. 366 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:20.079 You're right though, but it's a round trip transaction. We 367 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:22.519 say in Wall Street, I have a levocation of finance. 368 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.039 So the money comes in from Israel and it's expanded, 369 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.119 Let's say in the balance sheet of these makeup church pastors, 370 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.200 all of whom are as far as I'm concerned, judas 371 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:35.680 like figures because they have their hand on the treasury. 372 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.559 They're quite wealthy, many of them. They have their mansions 373 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:41.400 and so forth. And I'm not criticizing the wealthy. I'm 374 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.480 only criticizing the wealthy when their wealth comes from selling 375 00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:48.200 christ that I don't agree with. But if you look 376 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:51.039 at John Hagy's operation, for example, just Christian United for 377 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:55.519 Israel CUFI, it's the largest organization. I want to say, 378 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.359 it's in the millions of members, and I think they 379 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.799 have sent over one hundred million back to Israel, so 380 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.079 they may be receiving it. We could say sort of 381 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:08.400 an initial investment coming from those sources, and then the 382 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:13.279 investee is these you know, Christian nationalists and Christian Zionist 383 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.359 groups who then expanded greatly and the money goes right back. 384 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:18.839 So it's a when we call it around ship transaction. 385 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:21.920 So it's it's a it's a good return on investment 386 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:25.599 for Israel. And these are there, they're spokesperson these are 387 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:28.200 their their marketers, their market makers, let's say, in the 388 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:29.160 language of finance. 389 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:37.319 So when we're talking about when we are talking about 390 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:42.839 the Christian Zionists and their relationship to Israel, this is 391 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:49.359 all tied up in eschatology, Great end Times prophecy. So, 392 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.000 as difficult as it may be, could you give us 393 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:57.119 a sort of best best faith summary of what these 394 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.519 people hold. We can we can analyze it later it apart. 395 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.880 But what would David hay what would Hayy? What would 396 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.720 any one of these people say happens at the end 397 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:07.200 of the world. 398 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:10.160 Well, you've got to go to the original heresy. So 399 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:12.640 you know, as we learned from Holy Schrucier, there's nothing 400 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:14.720 new under the sun. So if we look at these 401 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:19.720