WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:23.839 Welcome to Pods of America. I'm Alex Wagner. On today's show, 2 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:28.160 Historian Heathercox Richardson on America at two fifty. With the 3 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.479 administration gearing up for July fourth celebrations and gearing down 4 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:35.640 from celebrations of Trump's eightieth, I thought I'd check in 5 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:37.759 with someone who can situate all of the pomp and 6 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:41.920 circumstance in historical context. You likely know Heather from her 7 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:46.000 insanely popular substack Letters from an American, where she writes 8 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.560 every damn day about the history behind today's increasingly ahistorical politics. 9 00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:54.159 Heather has a new series out to celebrate America's two 10 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.159 hundred and fiftieth. It is aptly named two fifty to 11 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:00.640 two fifty, where she tells the story of the Amerrikins who, 12 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.439 over the course of a quarter millennium, work to make 13 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.239 real the founding ideals of this nation that all people 14 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:10.079 are created equal. We're going to talk about that series 15 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:13.079 and Trump's Fourth of July celebrations, as well as so 16 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:16.159 much much more. Trump's efforts to make DC just as 17 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.599 tacky as he is, JD Vance's Catholic faith, and how 18 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:23.519 the lefts can embrace patriotism once again. It was a 19 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:25.319 great conversation with Heather, and we're going to get to 20 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:28.319 it in a minute. But before we do, guys, there's 21 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:31.200 a new episode of Pod Save America Only Friends out 22 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:31.959 now with me. 23 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:33.879 And Hysteria's Aaron Ryan. 24 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:36.840 Go check it out. Only Friends is the Friends of 25 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:41.840 the Pods subscriber exclusive show where Pod Save America hosts 26 00:01:41.959 --> 00:01:46.079 and contributors dive into even more news stories from the week. 27 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:49.680 In this episode, Aaron and I unpack the Justice Department's 28 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.400 latest investigation into Gavin Newsom and his wife Jennifer Siebel Newsom. 29 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.000 We check in on whatever was going on at the 30 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:59.280 Turning Point Women's Leadership Summit. No, that is not an 31 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:03.480 oxymoron and much more so. Hit pause and subscribe to 32 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:07.200 Friends of the Pod at Crooked dot com slash friends. Also, 33 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:10.639 please if you would check out my podcast Runaway Country, 34 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:13.800 where I this week talk to California Attorney General Rob 35 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:17.280 Bonta about JD Vance's war on Blue States, the other 36 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:21.240 war that he's tasked with, and then graded the Vice's 37 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:26.479 salesmanship efforts. This week on the Iran surrender with the 38 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:30.520 Great Sam Cedar. All right, here is Heather Cox Richardson 39 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:34.919 Heather Cox Richardson, thank you so much for joining us 40 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:38.360 today on Podday of America, and also preemptively thank you 41 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:41.560 for offering wisdom and perspective on this insane American moment. 42 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:43.400 Alex, It's always so much fun to be with you. 43 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:47.360 Oh, we should do it more often anytime, literally you 44 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:50.159 just say the word I'm here. Let's start first with 45 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:55.439 the upcoming two hundred and fiftieth celebration the semi Quincentennial, 46 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:59.960 and how the President has chosen to celebrate this moment 47 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:03.319 mentus occasion. Last Sunday, he of course hosted a UFC 48 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:05.919 fight on the South lawn of the White House, and 49 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:07.919 then next week on the fourth, he is going to 50 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:12.159 be hosting the self proclaimed most spectacular Trump rally of 51 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:12.840 them all. 52 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:14.479 On the National Mall. 53 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:17.240 I don't have the same lens onto history as you do, 54 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:22.840 but can you recall any sort of parallel to such 55 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:26.439 a monstrous display of presidential ego in the name of 56 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:29.479 patriotic celebration anytime in our history as a country. 57 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:30.400 No, of course not. 58 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.960 We're in a really different moment than ever before in 59 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:39.520 American history with administration that's rejecting the basic principles of 60 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:43.360 our democratic government. So one of the things that's interesting 61 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:45.919 is how that's playing out not only in celebrations of 62 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:48.919 the two hundred and fiftieth but also in the memorials 63 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:49.919 in Washington, d C. 64 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:52.599 But there's a larger story. 65 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:56.159 I mean, everybody knows that I'm talking about the reflecting pool, 66 00:03:56.199 --> 00:03:58.919 which might be a really interesting dive, so to speak, 67 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:02.639 for us to go into the Kennedy Center, the you know, 68 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:06.400 the gilded horses behind the Lincoln Memorial, the art, you know, 69 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:08.560 all the things we could the destruction of the Ben 70 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:11.639 Shawn that proposed destruction of the Ben Shawn murals, all 71 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:17.079 that stuff. But what's really interesting as you look over 72 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:19.879 it when you think about democracy, is that if you 73 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:23.839 think about our great presidents, the once we remember people 74 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:29.360 like Lyndon Baines Johnson or Theodore Roosevelt or Eisenhower or 75 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:31.879 you know, we could go on and on, they're the 76 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:36.480 ones who carved their memory into the American people by 77 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:44.040 making their lives better by having social security or healthcare, 78 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:48.000 or by trying to eliminate poverty. By suggesting that the 79 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:52.319 way you create a monument to yourself is by by 80 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.120 changing the lives of the American people. For the better. 81 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:58.240 And it's just really interesting when you think about legacies, 82 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.720 the fact that Trump somehow thinks that slapping his name 83 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:05.439 on stuff matters, but that doesn't matter at all. And similarly, 84 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:08.079 if you think about our history, you know, you can 85 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:12.319 write and people do write books celebrating the absolute genius 86 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:15.360 of and I'm going to pull somebody here at random, 87 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:21.360 Benjamin Harrison. But but it just doesn't stick if in fact, 88 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:24.600 it's clear that all you're doing is trying to celebrate 89 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:29.199 a certain kind of dominant lifestyle versus something that actually 90 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:32.000 made the American people better. So I would suggest it 91 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:34.439 right now in American history, for example, a lot more 92 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:37.959 people have heard of the Wounded Knee massacre than have 93 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:40.680 heard of Benjamin Harrison's great successes. 94 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.160 Yeah, I mean, people can talk to the trail of tears, 95 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.800 but they're not sure what Old Hickory did. In terms 96 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:49.360 of interior decorations at the White House, maggot types have 97 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:52.279 pointed to the fact that Teddy Roosevelt, I believe, hosted 98 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:55.839 and fought in a boxing match at the White House 99 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:57.079 during President This is. 100 00:05:57.399 --> 00:05:59.199 This is actually great. 101 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:01.360 So if you want to talk about this, I would 102 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:04.680 love to do this, because what happens in the Theodore 103 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:08.240 Roosevelt presidency is this is coming. First of all, Teddy 104 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:12.759 Roosevelt really jumps into some sort of American prominence in 105 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:16.600 eighteen eighty four, which is an important year politically, because 106 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.480 that's really when the younger Republicans are coming of age 107 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:21.759 and they're looking at the corruption of the Republican Party 108 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:24.360 and saying, we can't be democrats because of the Civil War, 109 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:27.439 but we also can't be that kind of Republican. So 110 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:29.160 one of the things that they are trying to do 111 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.600 is figure out how to return America to its democratic, 112 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:37.800 small deed democratic principles. And this is happening in a 113 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:41.560 time of industrialization, and during that time of industrialization, the 114 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:46.879 industrialists are essentially arranging the systems in the United States 115 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:52.439 to create an undereducated, underpaid under class that will continue. 116 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:53.439 Yeah, does it sound. 117 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:55.240 Familiar And it's kind of familiar. 118 00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:58.360 But so one of the things that is driving Theodore 119 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:03.800 Roosevelt is he's very concerned about the terrible conditions in 120 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.439 the urban areas, especially in the East. Remember, he loses 121 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:09.439 both his mother and his wife on the same day 122 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.079 to diseases that have come out of that sort of 123 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:16.160 urban soup before we really understood germ theory. And he 124 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:18.480 wants to clean up the cities, but he also wants 125 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:21.120 to return the country to a place where we can 126 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.800 actually create good citizens. And so he's going to support 127 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:27.079 cleaning up the cities. He's going to support education, and 128 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:30.519 he's going to support the wide open spaces that he's 129 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:33.160 going to try and protect through conservation. But he is 130 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:38.040 also going to try to reclaim a kind of American 131 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:42.240 masculinity that says, you know, we're not just cogs in 132 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:45.199 a machine of a larger system. And that speaks to 133 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:49.160 his own sort of rediscovering his ability, his physical abilities 134 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.879 from his youthful asthma through boxing. So this is when 135 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:55.879 you get and he also protects football football. Somebody had 136 00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:58.639 actually died playing a college football game. It was such 137 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:02.759 a rough sport, so he actually managed to recover there. 138 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:04.399 This is also the same. 139 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:08.680 Period when we get indigenous names attached to sports teams, 140 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.319 because the idea was that you wanted men to be 141 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:13.879 savage and I'm going to put that in air quotes, 142 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:19.040 but only on the football field, for example. But you 143 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.399 think about what Teddy Roosevelt was trying to do, and 144 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.040 a lot of people look down on it because you know, 145 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:26.120 of all the bare knuckle fighting and all that, and 146 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:27.759 there's all this is sort of an air of cock 147 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:31.160 fighting and prize fighting and so on. In the cities. 148 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:35.559 It was not considered higher level entertainment. But there's some 149 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.080 really big differences I think between and maybe at the 150 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:40.399 time people would not have said. 151 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:40.519 So. 152 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:45.720 There's one really major difference between Teddy Roosevelt and boxing 153 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.720 and his exhibition boxing, which was not the same bloody 154 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:50.639 stuff that was going on in Five Points in New 155 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:52.559 York and what happened at. 156 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:53.200 The White House. 157 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:57.799 And the really big difference, two really big differences is one, 158 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:02.679 taxpayer money didn't go into Teddy Roosevelt's fighting, and it 159 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:07.320 was not a branding opportunity, and for sure it was 160 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:10.759 not the corruption opportunity that the UFC fight on the 161 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:13.360 White in the White House has been. So even though 162 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:18.360 it both involved flying fists, the systems that they are 163 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.840 either accepting or critiquing were virtually opposite. 164 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:23.360 Very important distinction. 165 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:27.000 There was no cryptocurrency, a sponsorship, and a paramount plus 166 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:29.679 requirement to see the match. You could just be a 167 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:31.600 human being there on the white Do you have any 168 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:33.960 idea how many people attended that White House match that 169 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:35.080 Roosevelt vought. 170 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:38.960 In Oh, oh, there wouldn't have been I don't have 171 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.000 any idea, but it would not have been huge because remember, 172 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:45.200 what makes things huge is the ability to get place 173 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:47.559 as quickly and to know that they're happening, neither of 174 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:48.320 which would have happened. 175 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:50.320 It would have been written up in the newspapers afterwards. 176 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:52.000 And I'm sorry to have gone on so long about that, 177 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.480 but literally nobody has ever asked. 178 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:56.360 Me, no, I am this is I love this. 179 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.159 And just so you know, Lincoln was also a fighter, 180 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:00.919 which again nobody he's ever asked. 181 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:02.799 Me about like a boxing fighter. 182 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:06.080 Oh no, worse, Lincoln, I mean worse if you're not 183 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:10.159 into kind of grabs your he was. Remember, he was 184 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:12.440 from the frontier, and he was quite a big man, 185 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:16.240 and he had quite long arms and legs, and that 186 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:19.320 made him a really good guy in a fight and 187 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:22.639 in those days, and there's an argument about how deeply 188 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:24.679 he went into this. This was the era of eye 189 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:27.960 gouging and ear biting and so on, and there's big 190 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:29.799 fights about whether or not he did that. Lots of 191 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:31.840 people want to say, oh, he would never have done that. 192 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:32.639 Maybe maybe not. 193 00:10:32.759 --> 00:10:36.480 But remember he gets his political start in Illinois, and 194 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:39.720 he is backed in a bipartisan basis because there's a 195 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.559 gang who supports him and they're actually from the opposite party. 196 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:45.759 He's a wig in their Democrats, and they support him 197 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:47.639 because he's such a great fighter. He has fought with 198 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:48.200 them before. 199 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:50.519 Did he light ears? Do we know if he bought ears? 200 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:51.960 We don't know the answer to that. 201 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:55.120 And people who listen to this podcast now are going 202 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.799 to write you and me, probably hate mail from both 203 00:10:57.840 --> 00:10:59.960 sides saying of course he did or no he didn't. 204 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:04.720 But he came up through that era because she had 205 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.120 to to survive on the frontier, and it turned out 206 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:10.360 in his case to be of springboard into politics. 207 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:13.759 Well, I mean, yeah, Trump was a public it was 208 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:16.399 a fight promoter basically through much of his career in 209 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:19.120 the eighties. So here we are, and he's promoting fights 210 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.879 to enrich himself and line the pockets of his allies 211 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.840 on the White House grounds with tax pair money. You 212 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.679 mentioned Lincoln, and I'm kind of interested in asking you 213 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:32.320 whether this moment there's a lot that's reminiscent history tells 214 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:34.480 us the future as much as it is a detail 215 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.799 of the past, but he Trump has other plans to 216 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.440 celebrate the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary, including the Indie 217 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:43.279 Drag Race around the streets of Washington, DC and the 218 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:47.279 Great American State Fair, which several states. 219 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:48.679 We already know how there are skipping. 220 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:53.879 At least eight states Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Maine, Oregon, Washington, 221 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.960 and Pennsylvania, all blue states, have said they will not 222 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:59.480 take part in the fair. Maybe they don't have any 223 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:02.919 like a butter sculptures that they want to send in, 224 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:04.799 But I feel like it's a little bit more political 225 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:07.320 than that. Is this what it felt like in the 226 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:10.720 summer of eighteen sixty when you had states just opting 227 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:13.919 out of like Fourth of July celebrations because they just 228 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.200 did not see themselves as part of the union. I mean, 229 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.399 I'm not saying that that's what's happening right now, but 230 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:21.440 the division, the steep division in a moment of that 231 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.200 is supposed to be about national pride, but obviously Trump 232 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:24.960 is insured is. 233 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.799 Not so In the eighteen sixties and before Fourth of 234 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.519 July would have been celebrated at a state level, and 235 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:34.399 there really wouldn't there are Fourth of July speeches in 236 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:36.679 a lot of places, but you wouldn't have been able 237 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.200 to make a statement like that, and in fact, everybody 238 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:42.159 would have harked back to the framers and the founders, 239 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:43.879 the framers of the Constitution and the founders of the 240 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:46.879 Declaration of Independence. So eighteen sixty is a little bit 241 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:49.799 too early to go. But what is interesting is if 242 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:53.519 you popped forward to something like eighteen seventy six, and 243 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.799 in eighteen seventy six there is real concern that the 244 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:59.519 United States is going to fall apart. Remember this is 245 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:03.960 the year before eighteen seventy seven and the American South 246 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:08.480 taking back control of the states from the governments. That 247 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.879 we're trying to protect civil rights in the Southern States, 248 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:17.080 and that idea that we are celebrating different histories is 249 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:20.919 actually part of a lot of our celebrations. But I 250 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:23.919 would say something different in this moment, and that's what 251 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:26.960 really jumps out to me, is far less that different 252 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:29.240 states are saying we're not going to play with Trump, 253 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:33.799 then that Trump is saying this is my holiday, this 254 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:38.159 is about me, and this is about me dictating the 255 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.799 state of Washington and also the state of our history. 256 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:43.919 And he's been tripping up over history right and left lately, 257 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:45.879 as he's been trying to dictate. 258 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:46.519 How we remember it. 259 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:49.759 And one of the things I love about that is 260 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:53.559 that as that happens, people are stepping up and saying, 261 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:55.320 wait a minute, I want to know the real history. 262 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:58.120 Tell me the real history. So one of the things 263 00:13:58.159 --> 00:13:59.639 that you are seeing as. 264 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:06.639 Freedom Too fifty Trump's group has basically taken almost all 265 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:10.639 of the money from the bipartisan, congressionally backed America to 266 00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:14.960 fifty is that Americans themselves are finding their own ways 267 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:20.200 to celebrate. So if you look on June eighteenth at 268 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:24.200 the NIXT celebration in New York City, oh my god, 269 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:26.919 that was a Fourth of July celebration, except they weren't 270 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.879 actually talking about the fourth absolutely and the opening of 271 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:35.639 the Obama Presidential Center in Chicago on the same day, 272 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:40.039 people were actually putting on social media happy Fourth of July. 273 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:40.440 Yeah. 274 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:43.159 Yeah. And I actually spent i last week. 275 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:45.919 I did a Substack Live with Joy Reid and we 276 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:48.679 were talking about Juneteenth, which I think this year, more 277 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:50.879 than any year that I can remember, has become kind 278 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:53.600 of an alternative Fourth of July for a lot of 279 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:57.279 people who feel completely excluded from Trump's you know, malignant 280 00:14:57.320 --> 00:14:59.919 narcissism that's cast a pallor over the Fourth of Jaly, 281 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:04.200 and Juneteenth in many ways represents kind of our reconciliation 282 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:07.360 with our very very troubled and dark past on slavery, 283 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:11.120 or not reconciliation, but acknowledges it, and also moves the 284 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:14.279 ball forward and reminds us that we are living in 285 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.240 a we are in communion with one another, we are 286 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.639 part of, you know, the fabric of democracy. In some ways, 287 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:23.440 I feel like to your point, Americans have been sort 288 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.759 of a forced to reckon with their history in a 289 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:28.480 way that they haven't before and also find ways to 290 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:32.320 plant a flag, pardon the metaphor in patriotism in a 291 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.039 way that feels authentic and honest, and that is like 292 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.320 a weird downstream effect that is kind of positive, I think, 293 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:42.519 from all of the Trump nonsense and garbage, I. 294 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:43.120 Think that's right. 295 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.000 And I had the same observation about Juneteenth myself this 296 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:49.879 year that it felt much more like an American celebration 297 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:55.080 of recognizing what one does when the system is designed 298 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.039 to strip away your freedom. And one of the things 299 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:01.360 that the Trump administration has done, I think is it 300 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.639 has made people realize that the I'm sorry, but the 301 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.840 villains we found in our past, that seems somehow as 302 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:11.200 if they were overdone, like truly nobody could really do 303 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:16.279 X are around us even still. And while you could 304 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:21.480 always say that, because you know human nature, watching some 305 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:25.120 of these people take positions of power in the same 306 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.159 sorts of ways that the segregationists did in the eighteen 307 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:31.000 I'm sorry, nineteen sixties and eighteen sixties as well, But 308 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:34.440 nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies, I mean, Bull Connor still 309 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.399 walks among us. And for those people who were not 310 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:40.919 old enough to remember those days, you know, watching somebody 311 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:44.799 like Greg Bavino giving Nazi salutes and talking about ethnic 312 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:51.559 cleansing and recognizing he really was running our immigration policy 313 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.320 is an eye opener. I think that reminds people we 314 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:00.279 must act in solidarity against those who are trying to 315 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:04.039 destroy American democracy. Not by party, not by any of 316 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.799 the other divisions that people tend to emphasize or have 317 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.359 tended to emphasize since the nineteen eighties. But really, this 318 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.160 is an existential struggle for the survival of American democracy, 319 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:19.079 and we could actually get it right this time. 320 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:24.079 Fingers crossed the mere existence of Stephen Miller is a 321 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:27.839 reminder that we can indeed go back to our very 322 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:34.640 very violent, racist roots. 323 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.480 Today's show is sponsored by Strawberry dot Meet. Think about 324 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:42.799 your career. Maybe it looks fine on paper, but does 325 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.640 something feel a bit off Tommy? Yes, maybe you're stuck, 326 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.119 burned out, ready to move up to the next level, 327 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:51.559 or maybe you just want clarity on what's next. Got 328 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:53.839 I wish there was a career coach or a mentor 329 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:55.319 that I had. 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One of them is remaking, recasting 382 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:24.240 the city in the image of I guess mar A 383 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:28.000 Lago or perhaps Trump Tower, gilding horses with a half 384 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:32.119 an inch thick gold plating and trying to die their 385 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:36.160 reflecting pool blue to no avail. We'll talk about that 386 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:38.240 in a second, but when we talk about the actual 387 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.920 architecture of all of this, right, DC was designed to 388 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:46.720 be a piece of civic art, and it is what 389 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:50.599 The New York Times recently called an accumulation of carefully 390 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.400 arranged details, many quietly referencing one another. 391 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.359 There I grew up there. 392 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.799 There is a through line in many of the buildings, 393 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.200 even though they're different styles. And now Trump wants to 394 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.559 like install a mammoth arch. He's trying to do something 395 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:07.799 to the Lincoln Memorial as well. There's been a lot 396 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.160 of pushback, there have been some lawsuits. I see Trump's 397 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:15.119 push for monuments as inextricably linked to a male obsession 398 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.920 with phallic objects. But maybe you have a less Freudian 399 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.319 interpretation of what's going on here, Heather. 400 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:23.640 Well, I actually don't do a lot of work with 401 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:28.559