WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:11.439 Don't you fuck me? 2 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:18.440 I fuck me, I fucking harm. 3 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:26.600 Howdy folks, your host Double J, host of Operation GCD, 4 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:30.440 back here for Friday's. However, my co host Nick will 5 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:32.679 not be joining us tonight. In his place, we got. 6 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:35.960 Nate, host of Reality is Ours podcast. Nate. Appreciate you joining. 7 00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:38.000 Us absolutely, Thank you for having me. 8 00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:38.280 Man. 9 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:40.479 This was a lot of fun the last time I 10 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:41.880 was on, and I'm excited to be here. 11 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:42.799 Nice. 12 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:46.759 Appreciate appreciate you here. Yeah, Nick came down with some 13 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:49.119 sort of flu bugs. Hopefully he'll be back next week. 14 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:52.880 But yeah, look, I enjoyed our last conversations on here, Nate, 15 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.240 so definitely looking forward to another. I'm actually just coming 16 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:59.359 back from injured reserve myself. I blew out my jaw 17 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:01.759 uh a couple of weeks ago, but it's doing a 18 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:02.479 lot better now. 19 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:03.759 Good man. 20 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:06.879 Yeah, you got a freshly shaved face too. Didn't you 21 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:07.959 have a big beard the last. 22 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:10.439 Time I saw it, big beard, long hair, still kept 23 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:11.799 the head and then I used to keep my hair 24 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.879 in bed, just you know, just for the bit the uh. Yeah, 25 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:18.040 I had to clean up for uh for some uh 26 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:21.680 attend some family business. 27 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:22.480 So m. 28 00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:29.200 Clean cleaned up for some of those situations. But anyhow, 29 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:32.640 our guest to tonight, Jonathan Mitchell. Greeting, Sir, I appreciate 30 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:38.519 you joining us here for a discussion here on our Friday. You're, uh, 31 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:42.280 we're obviously gonna be discussing here some you're the author of, uh, 32 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:46.239 the book The Before Son of Sam, the Submerged History 33 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:47.280 of a Yonker's Cult. 34 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:49.319 Looking forward to discussing. 35 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:53.760 Some of that there with you, John, Yes, absolutely, and uh, 36 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:56.239 basically yeah, I just wanted to looking forward to having 37 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:59.879 a uh kind of a round table discussion on this 38 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:03.920 on the same murders. I'm kind of very interested in 39 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:06.439 hearing some of your your take in regards to the 40 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:11.000 kind of the evolution of activity surrounding the uh you know, 41 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:15.639 the Maureitary investigation and subsequent activities you know post that, 42 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:18.879 and you know, basically our current state of affairs surrounding 43 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:22.800 the topics, because you obviously have a long term you know, 44 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:24.400 perspective and viewpoint on the matter. 45 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:26.759 Yeah, yeah, talking about. 46 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:29.080 It any anything else you're gonna talk about by all means, 47 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:32.000 you know, you're you got the floor there, John, And 48 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:34.199 I said, appreciate you, appreciate you joining us. 49 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:38.599 Well, thank you I'm glad to be here. I was 50 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:40.599 trying to find a place to start. Usually when I 51 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:44.280 do these shows, it's, uh we tend to start out 52 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:47.280 with just sort of a sketch for people that are 53 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:50.199 unfamiliar with the case. You know, who what was son 54 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:52.520 of Sam? You know who was David Berkowitz? Was there 55 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.400 any evidence that he committed all of the shootings or 56 00:02:56.520 --> 00:03:02.159 you know, was there you know, conflicting evidence somewhere? So 57 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:04.560 I could go over that for folks that are unfamiliar 58 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:05.120 with the case. 59 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:09.759 Sure well, Nate sounds like he's got a very base 60 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.439 one understanding, so maybe uh yeah, he would start there. 61 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:16.840 That sounds a good idea, Nate, Nate, what's your understanding 62 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:19.599 of the Sun of Sand? For so? I, No, Jonathan's 63 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.479 focused not only on the sunderstand but some of the 64 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:25.159 prelude cold activity and the the epicenter of activity there. 65 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:26.960 In Yonkers Yonkers of New York. 66 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:30.080 Sure, man, I have like a very you know, I 67 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:33.520 just have the outline there. The first thing that caught 68 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:38.159 my mind was the Berkowitz. The first thing that popped 69 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:40.599 in because I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist, and I was 70 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:42.000 like jew, uh so. 71 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:43.520 Then I didn't know that. 72 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:45.840 Yeah, so his birth mother and his birth father were 73 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:49.919 both Jewish, and I think his adopted family was also Jewish. Uh, 74 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:52.240 which is I mean, it doesn't really matter, but that 75 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:56.919 was just the first thing that that I was also 76 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:01.199 kind of shocked that he was still alive. It was 77 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:03.639 kind of I thought I just assumed he was dead, 78 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:05.439 and I was. 79 00:04:05.479 --> 00:04:08.199 Kind of in health. You know, the interviews he don't 80 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:10.120 he gives. He seems appears to be in decent health. 81 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:12.800 Is he actually given a given out interviews? 82 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:13.520 I didn't even know he was. 83 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:16.480 Yeah, he's been tried to get him on the show 84 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:21.839 What are we doing? So, Yeah, he's an interesting character. 85 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.639 I was trying to see, like if he was born bad, 86 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.720 Like I was trying to see, like what what snapped 87 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:29.920 in him, because he seemed like he grew a pretty 88 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:32.040 normal life. He was given up for adoption, right, he 89 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:34.759 was adopted by It seemed like his folks were all right. 90 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:38.199 His mom, his adopted mother, died when he was a teenager, 91 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:42.480 about fourteen. I think that was probably pretty traumatic. Maybe 92 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:43.879 his dad was kind of a dick. It kind of 93 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:47.439 sounds like a little bit but like nothing that in 94 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:51.120 my mind. It was also a very brief window supposedly 95 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.319 that he was doing the killings. It was like one year, 96 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:55.360 it was like July to July. I think it was 97 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:58.519 what seventy four or seventy five to seventy six or 98 00:04:59.079 --> 00:04:59.639 seventy seven. 99 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:01.079 But yeah, yeah, very very well. 100 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:04.399 It sounds those are some good baselines there, Nate too. 101 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:06.759 For John to jump in here, maybe he can fill 102 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:07.720 in some of those details. 103 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:12.040 Yeah, he it was just that that year long period 104 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.319 and he you know, he claims that he didn't even 105 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.560 join the group until nineteen seventy five, so that's still 106 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:23.480 a pretty brief window there, although there is some evidence 107 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.800 that he was at least acquainted with or aware of 108 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:33.079 the cult prior to that. And you know, he had 109 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:36.480 a friend who also knew the car Brothers, who figure 110 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:41.360 heavily in the story, you know, and this friend allegedly 111 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.480 was still involved in the cult during the Son of 112 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.519 Sam years. So berkelewitzmy have at least been aware of 113 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:48.319 the cult prior to nineteen seventy five. 114 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:52.759 Interesting, So, like that's that's a very big turning point 115 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:55.720 because his exit from the army, so that you were 116 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:57.800 mentioning his kind of his childhood, he seemed to have 117 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:01.160 a tumultuous childhood. Sure, but it seems to like whatever 118 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:03.439 went on in dude's life went on during his years 119 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:07.560 of the army and what you know, kind of his 120 00:06:07.639 --> 00:06:10.720 transition at least mentally speaking, you know, into adulthood. There 121 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:13.240 he went into the army. I believe was for three years. 122 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:15.319 Correct me if I'm wrong with John. It was three 123 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:16.120 years there from what. 124 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:17.519 Two seventy five? 125 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:24.040 Yeah, And to be quite honest with you, I've asked 126 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:25.759 this question a lot of folks, and I've never gotten 127 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:30.600 the answer seeing any documents. I questioned his exit from 128 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:33.600 the army, so he alleged it from many stories, at 129 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:34.839 least write letters to some. 130 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:35.439 Of his friends. 131 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:39.199 He apparently wrote, he lit the NCO Club on fire 132 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.360 over there in Korea at the Army basin Kree he 133 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:46.000 was stationed at. If that's true, he would have got 134 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:48.839 a dishonorable discharge. And he got a dishonorable discharge. Well, 135 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:49.680 he's not getting a. 136 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:52.439 Security guard license in the state of New York. He's 137 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:53.319 not getting. 138 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.560 Hired by the Post Office because a dishonorable discharge has 139 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:00.319 more weight than a federal felony. Like federal I thought 140 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:02.600 these are better stat you want to have that, you 141 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:04.800 know better more than a dishonorable discharge. 142 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:08.240 I didn't. I couldn't find what he did. I was 143 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:12.279 looking briefly, but uh, it just said that he left honorably. 144 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.519 He had an honorable discharge, which is kind of interesting. 145 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:18.600 And there's always that weird like, uh, the folks that 146 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:20.720 are in the military that are acting funny, that do 147 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.800 some dumb shit, they have to kick them out, and 148 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:27.360 uh they end up having like uh like federal connections 149 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.040 and things like that. And I always kind of question, 150 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:34.920 especially during that era with serial killers in general, like, uh, 151 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:37.279 it almost seemed like most of it was an op 152 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:40.079 like most of it was some MK ultra interesting stuff 153 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:43.360 which also has cult ties. Uh, some of those satanic 154 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:45.560 cult ties. I think a lot of that is a 155 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:49.560 deep state MK ultra type of things. 156 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:51.319 Well, that's a that's a good point. 157 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:55.040 I often wonder what the crossover was between if there 158 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:59.000 was ever any interactions between Michael Lokino and Berkowitz at 159 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:01.199 his last station there at Fort Knox. 160 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:04.480 They seemed to have some overlap in timeframes. 161 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:07.120 But so, John, what got you started on this path 162 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:09.959 as far as writing your book The Before The Son 163 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.680 of sam book, The Submerged History of Ancors called, which 164 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:15.040 I think is a great you know, a great way 165 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:17.439 to put the whole scene to perspective of how there was, 166 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:20.399 you know, a lot of existing cold activity, you know, 167 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.360 prior to prior to this era of the nineteen mid 168 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:25.720 nineteen seventies and late nineteen seventies of these murders. But 169 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:28.240 what got you, what got you interested in the subject 170 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:28.759 in general? 171 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:32.480 You know, I just picked up Maury's book. I didn't 172 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:34.279 really know much about the case, but I found a 173 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:38.559 copy of a used bookstore, and I was immediately fascinated 174 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:43.559 with it. You know, even though it's by necessity it 175 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:45.679 was missing a lot of the names, and he used 176 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:49.879 a lot of aliases, you know, for various players in 177 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:54.320 the story. But I you know, I took notes on 178 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.960 it myself, and I was just really impressed by Maury's 179 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.600 research and his writing ability and everything. And then about 180 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:05.120 two thousand and two, I ran into someone who had 181 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:09.799 worked at the Magical Child bookshop in New York, and 182 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:12.639 I asked him what his opinion of the case was. 183 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:14.799 And he was not a fan of Maury at all, 184 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:18.279 yet he said, you know, I read the book and 185 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.679 I was familiar with Maury's work in the newspapers, you know, 186 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.639 prior to the to the release of the book, and 187 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:26.919 he said, I believe not only was he right that 188 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:29.000 there was a cult and that more than one person 189 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:33.879 than Berkowitz was involved, but that Maury got the specific 190 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.639 participants right, meaning the car Brothers and these other books. 191 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.200 So he said, you know, in spite of the fact 192 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:42.480 that he did not care for Maury, he believed that 193 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:47.639 Maury's thesis was basically correct. So from there, I just 194 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:50.759 I poked around here and there wherever I could, you know. 195 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:54.279 I started to do some newspaper research and then got 196 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:57.960 into it full time about eight late twenty eighteen early 197 00:09:58.000 --> 00:09:58.679 twenty nineteen. 198 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.200 Okay, well let me yeah, let me interject you real quick, 199 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:05.440 because you you, uh, you had some some good details 200 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:07.559 there I was unfamiliar with. You met you met somebody 201 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.879 who worked at the Magical Child bookstore. 202 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:11.399 Huh? Was it was it Peter Lavenda? 203 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:16.120 No, No, it was another individual. Uh. We we met 204 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:21.559 on a Zodiac Killer chat board. Actually, you know, because 205 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:23.399 there was such a wide range of people that were 206 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:26.519 interested in that too. But he had mentioned his background, 207 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:30.120 I thought, well, since he was around for some of 208 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:33.159 this as it was happening, I couldn't resist asking him 209 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:34.159 about the Ultimate Evils. 210 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:37.000 So yeah, it was. 211 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:40.080 It was a brief conversation, you know, but it was 212 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.240 it was as specific, I think, as he cared to be. 213 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:48.399 But it's interesting that, you know, I've told people that, 214 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:52.440 you know, back twenty twenty five years ago, you could 215 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:55.480 have a legitimate discussion about the case, even with people 216 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.559 who weren't fans of Maury or Morey's work or whatever, right, 217 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.200 and they wouldn't. They didn't try to dismiss Morey out 218 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.159 of hand and call them a crackpot and call them 219 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:08.480 all these silly names and stuff. The case now is 220 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:15.120 that the other team is completely just irrational, and you 221 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:21.399 know they don't. They're just inordinately hostile to everybody whose questions. 222 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:24.759 Very vitriology with all their messaging, right, everything, all their 223 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:26.480 communications seemed very vitriolic to me. 224 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.039 Yes, yes, definitely, Yeah. 225 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:30.919 And you probably have a lot more insight of that 226 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.000 than I do from just kind of watching things, you know, 227 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:36.799 un fold, because I believe you you were involved in 228 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:39.639 some research teams that is that correct in recent years 229 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:42.679 with some some of this vitriolic nature of activities that. 230 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:48.080 Yeah, and it was. It was tough, you know, because 231 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:51.840 I assumed these people at one individual in particular was 232 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.919 my friend because we were this was during COVID, so 233 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:56.120 a lot of us were home and we had a 234 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.720 little more time to devote to all this research. So 235 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.720 we talked to each other nearly every day, and uh, 236 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:04.919 you know, you get you get pretty close to people 237 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:08.159 under those circumstances, and you you know, just on the 238 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.159 basis of the research, you assume that you're all on 239 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:14.440 the same page. But things got very weird and I 240 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:17.399 figured out very quickly that we were not all on 241 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.960 the same page, unfortunately. But yeah, yeah, twenty twenty one 242 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:24.159 was a weird period there, that first half of that year. 243 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:27.559 Yeah, I like to put a put a pen on 244 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:30.039 that point as far as some of these activities surrounding, 245 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:32.440 you know, in this information that's popped off in recent years, 246 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:34.960 because I want to go back to this Magical Child situation. 247 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:37.480 That's a very fascinating place to me and Nate, are 248 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:39.360 you familiar with Have you ever heard of the Magical 249 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:41.440 Child bookstore? It was one of these, one of one 250 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:44.399 of two only occult bookstores in all of New York City. 251 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:46.360 Now I'm not familiar with it at all. 252 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:49.279 Actually, have you ever seen the film Ghostbusters? 253 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:51.120 Yes, how they. 254 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:56.240 Found Yeah, the acroyd Acroid based his accult bookstore off 255 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:00.639 of The Magical Child. So this is a the popular 256 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:06.200 amongst the cultest of all varieties, you know, ohto folks, 257 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:10.240 you know, Satanist folks, Mormon folks, processed church folks, you know, 258 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.679 you know, all these characters. Peter Lavenda worked there part time, 259 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.679 apparently according to himself. And again he's an interesting character 260 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:19.399 I think relative to the whole burke Wood storyline too, 261 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:21.759 because Peter Lavenda went to the same high school and 262 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:25.559 ran around the same social social circles, apparently by a mission. 263 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:27.480 With with uh with David Burkowitz. 264 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:30.879 I actually suspect there's probably more of a I don't know, 265 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:32.480 John Johnny may have with thoughts on it, and i't 266 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.000 want to get too far off on a different tangent. 267 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.039 I just think there may be more of the storylineup 268 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:39.000 as far as Leavenda and his buddy and how maybe 269 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:41.320 burke Witz ever got linked up with the cars in 270 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:41.960 the first place. 271 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.440 There's it's always possible that MORENFO is gonna emerge, because 272 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:49.639 this case is you know, I've seen things that I 273 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:51.919 never thought would happen. I've talked to people that I 274 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:56.559 never expected to talk, you know, and things just got 275 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:00.759 uh yeah, there's always more information out there. 276 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:01.399 Uh. 277 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.799 The individual I spoke to, you know, he he also 278 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:08.519 worked at the shop, and he he loved Herman. I 279 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:11.919 think he considered Hermann Slater the owner of a surrogate 280 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.879 father basically. But you know, Herman would lose his temper 281 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:16.679 and he would fire the guy multiple times, and then 282 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:19.080 he always hired him back. So he he had a 283 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:22.440 genuine affection for for the store and the person that 284 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:27.000 owned it. But he also had been active in the 285 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.679 OTO for a while. And yeah, tell me about that 286 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:31.120 was that it was an acquired taste. 287 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.679 So that's a weird that's a weird statement. It's a 288 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.360 very weird statement. That's a very weird statement. So Herman 289 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:40.080 Slater is an interesting character though, so Nate, the guy 290 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:41.799 that then's the random magical child. 291 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:42.240 He Uh. 292 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:45.480 He would appear on what was it, maybe Maury Povich 293 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:49.759 or something opposite, Maury Terry debating these topics of Satanic 294 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:52.960 colts and you know, not specifically as understanding, but other 295 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.879 Satanic the whole Satanic panic movement. You know, you'd have 296 00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:59.279 folks like Herman Slater here, the owner of this bookstore, 297 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:03.200 opposite Mari Terry on the early nineties TV circuit discussing 298 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.679 these topics. Then later I find out and speaking with 299 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.440 all this information that Johnny saying has popped off in 300 00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:11.440 recent years, the release of all these tarot and the 301 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.279 variations of different Terry files. I'll argue, and I'll go 302 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:16.600 back to it here in a moment with you, but 303 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:20.039 you know, the release of all these files, and Terry 304 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.159 had on a list Herman Slater as a member of 305 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:25.399 the cult. So you know, he's literally going up apparently 306 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:28.120 going on TV note like with full mindset that he's 307 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:29.720 debating a dude from the. 308 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:30.639 Cult about the cult. 309 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:32.360 You know what I mean, that's got to be a 310 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.120 rough environment to go to go, you know, to voluntarily 311 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:36.519 put yourself into. 312 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:41.240 Yes, I would say so, yeah. 313 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:41.440 And that's one of the reasons I have a lot 314 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:43.039 of respect for the man in his work. He may 315 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.679 he may be incorrect in some of his assessments. I'm 316 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:50.200 sure he faced a lot of intentional misleading various you. 317 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:55.159 Know, Yeah, he was to head with these people because 318 00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:59.759 actuallyrect yeah, yeah. 319 00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:02.679 He Yeah, that's a good it's a good way to 320 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:04.000 frame me. That's what I was trying to get out 321 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.639 there with them, Voluntarily going on these shows knowing Corner's 322 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.080 own notes, knowing that that this dude that he's debating 323 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.919 is a member of the cult, that he's a video 324 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.559 aut right, like, you know, that's the balls right there. 325 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:21.840 Yeah, and these were very you know, Herman was even 326 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:28.840 by the kindest estimation, he was a strange person, and arguably, 327 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:31.440 according to some evidence, more than strange, you know, he 328 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:32.200 was dangerous. 329 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:39.679 So yeah, yeah, yeah, very odd stuff. So twenty eighteen, 330 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:41.960 you got you got real heavy into the research, and 331 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.519 then you said you were working. 332 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:45.080 In a research group. 333 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.240 Come twenty twenty, but you wrote your book was published 334 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:49.399 in twenty twenty, Is that correct? 335 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:50.200 That's right. 336 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:50.480 Yeah. 337 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.440 I met some of the folks that I worked with 338 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:57.519 shortly after I published the first version. Then a few 339 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:01.159 months later there were there was someditional information that I'd 340 00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:03.279 found out in a couple of corrections I wanted to make. 341 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.240 So I've just added some you know, a little bit 342 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.440 of text to the same book. And uh, but yeah, 343 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.160 the first version came out, in fact, almost exactly five 344 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:14.720 years ago. It was in February twenty twenty. 345 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:18.160 So oh good, nice, Yeah, and it put me. 346 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:20.160 In contact with various folks, and. 347 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:24.599 You know, unfortunately I forgot you connected with the publisher 348 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:26.559 of the book, and then you got connected. 349 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.400 With Yeah, some folks reached out to me, and you know, 350 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:35.559 I think, sadly people can not everybody did this, but 351 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:41.079 some people misrepresented themselves at the beginning. And yeah, yeah, 352 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.400 I was working elbow to elbow with them, and unfortunately 353 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:47.240 there their objective was different than mine was. 354 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:48.400 Yeah. 355 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:50.720 It's such an odd environment, isn't it. And so I've 356 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:54.480 been following these activities, and to be honest with you, 357 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:56.960 I got into the Sun the same case through Charles Manson. 358 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:02.119 It's crazy enough that and researching my own heritage. I 359 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:05.960 hail from Fairfield County, Connecticut, and specifically the town of Ridgefield, 360 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.799 just across the border there from Westchester County. Actually, my 361 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:12.759 family's home was two and a half miles away from 362 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:18.400 the processed church headquarters there. Well, yeah, there in Westchester County. 363 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:21.000 Basically the same road. You just you know, you take 364 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.599 a t intersection. One of one of them you stay 365 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:25.160 in the state. The other one goes across the border 366 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.039 into Connecticut, and we had lived right across the border 367 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:31.160 into Connecticut. So I just you know, looking at that 368 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.680 whole area, there's a lot of weird cold like looking 369 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.759 at the whole ultimate evil narrative of all the recruitment 370 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:38.640 and boy Scout troops and stuff like that in the 371 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.960 Westchester County area. It seems all that stuff is going 372 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:44.359 on in the Fairfield County, you know, in the Connecticut 373 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:46.160 region as well. And again you have a lot of 374 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:49.440 weird stuff going on and around the town of Ridgefield, 375 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:51.920 that whole area just opposite of you know that you know, 376 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:55.839 opposite of the that area of Westchester County that seems 377 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:59.200 particularly creepy if you ask me, the that nature preserve 378 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.279 region Hollywood film sets used to They filmed a lot 379 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.759 of Hollywood movies rightrever than that little little corner of 380 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.559 the county there in Westchester, right where the right where 381 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.680 the processed Church setup shop is, you know, just adjacent 382 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.359 to once Again Film Studios. It seems like everywhere they 383 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:16.759 go is from Charles Manson and the Spawn Ranch to 384 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:20.240 the you know, the Canal of Utah best Friends Animal 385 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:24.000 Society buying out you know, all that Disney Film Studio 386 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:26.440 property and well, not just Disney. 387 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:29.000 But you know large part of Disney, you know it. 388 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.240 See where they go, it's film, film studios, you know, 389 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.079 movie branches if you will. 390 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:37.039 Yeah, I think they do enjoy being in close proximity 391 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:40.200 to film and filmmakers. Yes, absolutely. 392 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:43.759 Right. It seems to go hand in hand, right. 393 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.400 Yeah, it does. It does eerily so. And in fact, 394 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.759 I had to I had to make a little bit 395 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.240 of a case for that in my book with a 396 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:55.160 really low budget film that unfortunately not many people have seen. 397 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.200 It was just kind of a cheap drive in horror movie, 398 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.960 but it was. It was called Invasion of the Blood Farmers, 399 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:04.519 was shot just about twenty miles north of Yonkers, but 400 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:09.200 still in Westchester County, and the everything about the finish 401 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.519 just like a thinly fictionalized version of the story that 402 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:15.680 we're talking about. It's this group of dirt farmers. They're disguised. 403 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.640 They're disguised as dirt farmers, they're actually druids and they're 404 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:23.079 trying to resurrect their queen through taking the blood of 405 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:28.759 both human and animal victims. Anybody familiar with the larger 406 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.799 story that Morey told in The Ultimate Evil is going 407 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.480 to find a lot of the plot points of that 408 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.640 movie eer really familiar. It's a terrible movie, but there's 409 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:41.400 so much in it that's relevant in relation to this case. 410 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:44.519 But it's a strange little movie. But yeah, it was 411 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.319 filmed in Westchester too, in nineteen seventy two. 412 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:51.559 Interesting. Yeah, a lot of strange stuff going on there. 413 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.000 So yeah, I getting back to the kind of the 414 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:57.319 evolution of things from what I was from my perspective. 415 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:01.039 So I've been following these things, I don't know, at 416 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.039 least more specifically conversations relatives specific to the process since 417 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:15.519 around twenty twenty, right, Syra twenty. 418 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:18.480 I lose y'all, my back, my back, Okay, yeah, you're back. 419 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:20.400 I was wondering if it was on my end or. 420 00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:23.680 If so SIRRAA twenty thirteen. 421 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:26.200 The only folks on the interwebs talking about these subjects 422 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:28.440 specifically the Process, Church and the Son of Sam, both 423 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:33.799 Mary Terry's investigations generally speaking, was that Opperman. I've I've 424 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:35.839 just you know, I've been on operating the show before. 425 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.720 You know, We've communicated various topics. Yeah, he has some 426 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:41.599 good assessments. A lot of a lot of these, uh 427 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:44.440 are good analysis and a lot of these cold activities 428 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.480 I think surrounding these topics, and again because again he's 429 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:50.359 he's got the evolution of a lot of the you know, 430 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.000 the discussion, a lot of the you know, you know, 431 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:56.240 knowing a lot of the characters involved. Jim Rothstein, He's 432 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:58.319 on numerous interviews with him over the year. So these 433 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:00.920 are the things I've kind of followed really over the 434 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:04.079 I know, I know he's he's a contentious character and 435 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:06.119 needs some comments in the Yet I know he's a 436 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:08.880 contentious character, but he nonetheless he has a bit of 437 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:12.119 a historian in these topics relative to his catalog of 438 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:18.400 interviews and again interactions because again, you know, I'm not 439 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:20.000 familiar with were you were you part of this this 440 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:21.680 infamous Mare Retarry facebook group? 441 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:23.599 I mean, these are things I never really were involved with, But. 442 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.720 Yeah, I never was. I just I'm just not a 443 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.079 great social media person, So I was really never on 444 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:32.880 Facebook for very long. But Ed had me on his 445 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:35.039 show a couple of times, and my experience was nothing 446 00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:37.839 but great with him. You know, I enjoyed doing the show, 447 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:39.960 and he gave me a platform at a time when 448 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.079 a lot of this really terrible stuff was happening, and 449 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:46.400 misleading information was getting out, and he allowed me to 450 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:48.279 get on and correct the record, So it was it 451 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:49.319 was really good to be on there. 452 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.359 Sure I heard that interview is a good interview for sure, 453 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:54.440 and I highly recommend folks check that out, even if 454 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:56.640 you don't like that album, and check out John's interviews 455 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.240 on there, because he goes into some of these discussions. 456 00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:00.680 If I remember correctly, that's right. 457 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.680 Yeah, regarding how all of a sudden, you know, he 458 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:06.519 was getting a lot of messages from folks being sent 459 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.079 to him, you know, on these topics that all of 460 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:10.880 a sudden there's an uptick in interest, and it is 461 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:13.799 very curious what is that uptacking interest? Is it the 462 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:18.000 same uptick and interest that is generated now numerous Netflix 463 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.599 documentaries on the topic. Yes, seeds to be a concerted 464 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.200 effort to me. I mean, these are my opinions on 465 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.519 the matter from looking over you know, watching these subjects, 466 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.279 you know, reading, you know, you know, I read The 467 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:34.200 Ultimate Evil for the first time probably around twenty to fifteen, 468 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.839 I think it was, you know, the same time I 469 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:39.799 was getting really into Charles Manson. I read every book 470 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.799 on you know, the Family at Sanders The Family, great 471 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:46.640 book on Manson highly recommend his stuff, you know, looking 472 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:48.480 at his notes, I was shocked to learn him and 473 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.119 him and Terry remained, you know, close associates for many 474 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.160 years up until Terry's death. But it seems that Terry's 475 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.440 death was the precipitating event that caused these the onslaught 476 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:03.599 of this, Yeah. 477 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:05.640 I think so. And then a couple of years after that, 478 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:10.039 Burk Woods gave a CBS News interview for the fortieth 479 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:14.519 anniversary I guess of of of his arrest, and it 480 00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:17.400 was very It was garbled. You could you could see 481 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.480 the video edits, you know, in the interview, and they 482 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.960 were just like piecing parts of different sentences together. And 483 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.440 I talked to a lot of people after that interviewer 484 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:28.400 who said that was just bizarre. They did a really 485 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:30.680 terrible job with that, and I said, yeah, I thought 486 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:34.920 they did too. And what they were trying to make 487 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:38.519 it sound like was that he had just confessed to 488 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:41.000 the whole hog there. But but they I don't think 489 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.920 they left even one sentence of his intact in that interview. 490 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:47.240 But yeah, there was some interest after that as well. 491 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:51.119 And then I think The Ultimate Evil was out of 492 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:53.920 print for a while, which I didn't realize when I 493 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:58.119 published my book, But people came forward and told me 494 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:02.160 that when I published Pure and they said that my 495 00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:04.160 book at one point was about the only thing that 496 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:06.880 they could get to read on it. And so I 497 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:11.000 tried to encourage everybody to find an old paperback copy 498 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.160 of Maury's book if they could, because it was you know, 499 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:15.880 what I had written would really make a lot more 500 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:19.440 sense if they had read Maury first. So but yeah, sure, 501 00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:26.279 fortunately back in print, how I albeit in a butchered version. Unfortunately, Well, 502 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:27.160 I don't know where. 503 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.960 I don't where you started that tangent there, John, But 504 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:31.559 you made a good point there. That cut out there 505 00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:33.200 for a moment. But you make a good point there 506 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:37.720 about the paper paper version versus the the digital version. Yeah, 507 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:40.720 because and back to this this where where I cut 508 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.839 out when we were talking about the concerted effort situation. 509 00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:48.279 You know this nonsense, This goes surrounds these topics these days, 510 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.480 the new digital version, when the new print version from 511 00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:56.039 mister Zimons, the producer of the director of the Netflix 512 00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.279 documentary The Sons of Sam He Dana has been some 513 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.240 comments in the UH chat about data over their Boddy 514 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:06.160 jewels and her and her research and research team, and 515 00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:09.720 something that they've they've concluded over there was comparing the 516 00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:11.880 print version versus the digital version, and there's been a 517 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.000 number of revisions, including an entire chapter wiped out. 518 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.799 Very important stuff left out, Yeah, and crucial stuff in 519 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.279 many cases, you know, names that are relevant. And yeah, 520 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:25.440 the older a copy that people can find, the better 521 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:29.240 off they will be with with Morey's work. Yeah, it's uh, 522 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:35.319 it was a really unfortunate thing that happened with the 523 00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:38.240 latest printing of the book. So yeah, I would I 524 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:40.440 would advise people to stay away from from that. 525 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:43.799 But yeah, it was. 526 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:46.319 The accident either. 527 00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:47.839 Oh, I don't think. 528 00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:50.160 No, it's when you're wiping out an entire chapter on 529 00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:53.559 the the death mass murders, which native have you ever 530 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:55.680 heard of some of these murders in New York City 531 00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:57.960 around the gay s and m community, the gay clubs. 532 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:00.039 You know, it's it's very reminiscent of a pro a 533 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:02.039 smilly faced killer type of murder. 534 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:03.200 To be quite honest with you. 535 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.039 I actually had Nick come on. I think we talked 536 00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:09.920 a little bit about that. Yeah, that was yeah, well specifically, yeah, 537 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:12.720 and that is interesting. Jonathan. I had a quick question 538 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:16.480 for you and of course this is all speculation, but 539 00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:18.480 you were saying that you had a researcher that was 540 00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:20.519 working with you for the book, right, and then at 541 00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:22.599 the end he was kind of twisting some of the 542 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.960 information or he had a different like how much of 543 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:26.480 you how much of that do you think are like 544 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:30.000 disinformation agents? Like the way I look at it, like 545 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:35.079 especially the mainstreams like version of like Netflix series now 546 00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:37.759 where people are getting like overly obsessed with like serial 547 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.400 killers and true crime and this and that, I almost 548 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:42.599 see it as a way of like it because they'll 549 00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:45.839 even cover things like Jeffrey Ebstein and and things like that. 550 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:48.359 You're gonna have the big guys talking about Jeffrey Ebstein. 551 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:50.480 It seems like a way of just like painting the 552 00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:54.720 narrative and having the allowable version of like what happened, 553 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:57.319 and so they can like cover up all the actual 554 00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:01.599 crazy shit that happened. It seemed very concerted. It seems 555 00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:05.440 like it's very planned, Like I think, especially with Netflix nowadays, 556 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:09.319 Like that's Edward Benaes's nephew, Mark Rudolph, Right, that's uh, 557 00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:13.319 it's pretty fascinating, like it like he was the father 558 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.640 of propaganda, right, It seems like all of this has 559 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:20.480 connections back to again always back to the CIA. To me, 560 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:23.640 mk ultra, like all of this stuff seems pretty like 561 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:27.359 connected with the CIA and things like that, covering things 562 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:30.880 up and uh, you get uh, what man, what's the 563 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:34.400 word that I'm looking for? You get a limited hangout, right, 564 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:37.200 and so you get to talk about the bad guy, 565 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:39.359 but you get to talk about it this kind of 566 00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:41.799 like in the three by five card of like allow. 567 00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:44.720 Yes, I could not agree more and there's one person 568 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:47.559 in particular who is guilty of that, and yeah, I 569 00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:50.960 think a lot of this is largely uh, choreographed and deliberate. 570 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.880 I wrote the book on my own, and then what 571 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:57.640 I found as I progressed into research with my former 572 00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:02.440 colleagues is they never can right out and said, we 573 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:04.720 want you to change some of the conclusions that you 574 00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:07.279 came to in your book. But that was the general idea. 575 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.559 They started to There started to be more and more 576 00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:17.480 friction about particular conclusions, about particular suspects that I had made, uh. 577 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:19.319 And I knew I was right because I had done 578 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:22.720 the research to begin with, and then I was I 579 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.000 was continuing the research even even as we worked together 580 00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:28.799 and there were a couple of suspects, in particular in 581 00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:32.240 a couple of situations related to Son of Sam that 582 00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:38.160 they really when I persisted in researching these areas, you know, 583 00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:42.000 they really had a problem with it. So yeah, I 584 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:46.559 think a lot of this is it's a calculated effort, 585 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:48.759 unfortunately and. 586 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:50.640 Uh well financed. 587 00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:57.279 Yeah, a lot of media and and government weight behind them. Yeah. Yeah. 588 00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.559 They get nervous when you're hovering over the target. 589 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:05.240 Yes, and and their their nervousness rapidly turns into like, 590 00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:10.799 you know, querulous anger, and then they get really really 591 00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:14.960 petty about some things, you know. But I'm pretty stubborn, 592 00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:17.519 so I just stuck to my guns. 593 00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:21.440 So Jonathan, I also briefly, briefly read just a little 594 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:25.160 connection that was David Berkowitz. Was he a member of 595 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.480 the Processed Church? But also I heard that he was 596 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:30.680 a member of the Scientology Is that correct? Or where 597 00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:33.920 is the connection there? He was, you know, he joined 598 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:36.599 the Yonkers cult. There was there's a little bit of 599 00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:38.319 and I think this is one of the areas that's 600 00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:42.920 a little confusing in Maury's book is there was a 601 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:47.079 pre existing cult in Yonkers that started in about the 602 00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:51.240 early to mid fifties. The Process came into the picture 603 00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:55.039 somewhere in the late sixties early seventies, and they sort 604 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:58.599 of co opted this pre existing cult. The cult was still. 605 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:00.680 There and they still met in under our part, but 606 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:03.599 it appears to be the Process that was calling a 607 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:08.759 lot of the shots by that point. So David may 608 00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.400 have never been a member of the Process per se, 609 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.559 but he definitely was a member of the local Yonker's 610 00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.119 cult and they, yeah, they got their marching orders from 611 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.759 the Process at that point. Yeah. And then the Process 612 00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:24.759 moved out of Manhattan about nineteen seventy eight, or at 613 00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:28.599 least a wing of the Process did, and relocated to Atlanta. 614 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.039 Yeah, and Native if I if I can put a 615 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:34.440 better perspective, just a different perspective on the idea of 616 00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:37.079 the idea of the Process, Like, yeah, different, is it 617 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:39.759 not just thinking of it as they generally accepted this cult, 618 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:41.839 I look at more of as you're pointing out the 619 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.599 intelligent Satanists, you know, intersection of these activities. Yeah, and 620 00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:47.559 so this was a this was a roll up operation 621 00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:50.799 in my opinion. So they're rolling up these various cults 622 00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:55.319 and that's why they have the four Deities as their gods, Jesus, Satan, Lucifer, 623 00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.920 and Jehovah, because that way they can basically roll up 624 00:31:57.960 --> 00:31:58.960 any cult into their mix. 625 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:01.160 Right, So it's a roll up, roll up operation for 626 00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:01.759 hood Rat. 627 00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:04.200 Shet, you know, which, as John point out, they go 628 00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:06.240 to Atlanta and what pops off in Atlanta and the 629 00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:07.480 Atlanta child killings. 630 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:12.599 That's right, that's right. Yeah, the process were I feel 631 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:18.519 pretty satisfied to say that that they emerged directly from 632 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.640 m I six British Intelligence uh Tavistock Institute, that that 633 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:24.960 was the out of which the process. 634 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:27.640 Yeah, all right, No, I totally agree with you. 635 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:29.839 There in Tavistock they got their hands and on sorts 636 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:34.880 of activity, including the the transgendered apocalypse that was plaguing 637 00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:36.039 the Western world that. 638 00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:37.440 Actually originated Tavistock. 639 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:43.160 Yes, recently got shut down to the UK governments like Tavistock. 640 00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:47.440 You're done. So yeah, see that works out there does. 641 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:49.519 Seem to have finally been a lie and that that 642 00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:54.680 people were unwilling to go beyond. So yeah, which is good. 643 00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:57.559 I mean as as a victim of the transpocalypse myself. 644 00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:02.279 The introduction tonight's show, Buff Jared Ervisa currently awaiting murder 645 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.160 murder trial in the states of Connecticut and Massachusetts for 646 00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:09.319 a multi state stabbing spree where he also piston a McDonald's. 647 00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:12.880 I don't know why he did that, but what he did, 648 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.000 so it was a fun filled afternoon for all Buffalo Jared. 649 00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:18.400 But he clearly, uh, you know, he's a very you know, 650 00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.880 he's a I kind of view him as in mind 651 00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:24.319 controlled trans this you know, mind controlled trans apocalypse situation 652 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:26.400 of these killers that have been popping off. And I 653 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:28.119 don't know that that's all that different from the Son 654 00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:30.640 of Sam situation, because you know, that's kind of the 655 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.000 goal from my from my assessment at least, that's kind 656 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.119 of the goal of this. 657 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:36.759 Wrap up operation of the process that. 658 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:39.400 Seems to be kind of the goal is to do 659 00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:43.640 these various you know, not just small chaotic events creating 660 00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:47.640 chaos throughout throughout the specifically America, but uh, I don't 661 00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:52.039 give a shit about other countries. But the uh, you know, 662 00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:54.640 the uh you know, they're they're they're associated with almost 663 00:33:54.680 --> 00:34:00.839 every major socio political assassination murder event and for the 664 00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:06.880 last what fifty years, you know, so and and the 665 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:11.440 origin so there is you know, I'm sure John's fully 666 00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:14.559 fully aware of this contententu subject of the process because 667 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.559 you watch things like again this concerted effort, right the 668 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:19.639 the you know, the propaganda, as you're pointing out with 669 00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:23.320 the Netflix, there is the The Sons of Sam documentary. 670 00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:27.119 It says the process disbanded in nineteen seventy four, which 671 00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:31.360 is the official, you know, ridiculous tagline that gets you know, 672 00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.559 repeated over and over. It's clearly it's false. I mean, 673 00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.480 it's all false on its face. Yeah, there's really. 674 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.880 The debate doesn't exist except for the people trying to 675 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:41.840 lie about it. Right, but yeah, the. 676 00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:46.400 Yeah, so you have you have that, that whole debate. 677 00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:49.119 But you know, regardless of that debate, you know, these 678 00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:50.400 people can call themselves. 679 00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:50.559 Whatever they want. 680 00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:53.639 They're doing the same activities and time and time again, 681 00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:58.559 from RFK you know, to uh the Son of Sam 682 00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:02.960 to you know, you essentially Samsung Gerald Ford if you 683 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:05.320 want to, you know, bring in the Manson situations is 684 00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:06.920 more he does in The Ultimate Evil, and I think 685 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:09.559 he does it for great reason. There's some deep Manson 686 00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:12.840 process connections, so you know, and uh, there's a lot 687 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:14.199 to be said for these activities and a lot of 688 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:15.800 things that have gotten ignored over the years. That have 689 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:18.800 come to light in recent years is the Westchester County 690 00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:21.280 is a hot bed of activity with the processed church. 691 00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.159 So you know, it's not just the Yonkers cult as 692 00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:26.599 you're pointing out, John that Burke, which is clearly a 693 00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:29.000 part of but seems to have been as you're pointing 694 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:32.719 out the you know, the puppet, the puppet puppet masters 695 00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:35.880 of that that Yonkers cult was by the nineteen seventies 696 00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:38.079 was members of the process and and Burke which has 697 00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:39.280 pointed these people out. 698 00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:40.079 That's right. 699 00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:43.320 In fact, the guy he pointed out was a very 700 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:48.880 very affluent lifestyle and uh, the in a very prosperous 701 00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:52.719 uh you know Baltimore suburb Baltimore, Maryland suburbs, which I 702 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.119 say prospers. There's not very many Baltimore, Maryland suburbs that 703 00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:57.440 are are They're pretty rough around there. So you know, 704 00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:00.519 there's a few there's a few nice areas areasa. You know, 705 00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:04.159 the healthcare CEO Killer Luis Image, he grew up in 706 00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:06.880 a nice area of the suburbs of Baltimore. I'd say 707 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.559 this is the second nice area with the the former 708 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:12.360 former or probably still current processed guy who he. 709 00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:15.480 Could have been Kal puppets and they could have been 710 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:16.039 another one. 711 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:18.679 Exactly, yeah, exactly. 712 00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:22.119 Yes, this individual in Maryland, he just tells people that 713 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.199 he was in a commune. He just say he spent 714 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:27.599 the wacky sixties and early seventies in a commune. And 715 00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:29.280 I believe he leaves it at that. 716 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:33.559 So yeah, yeah, that's that's possibly one of the one 717 00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.440 of the greater tragedies of this entire tales. A lot 718 00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:38.679 of these folks that were involved in this head rat 719 00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:41.199 shit and around the processing around the son of Sam 720 00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:45.159 Yonker's cult. Yeah, they went on to die of an 721 00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:45.880 old age. 722 00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:50.000 Yeah, yeah, they did, yeh, lived out their natural lives. 723 00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:56.119 And speaking of Netflix, the popular Netflix series Stranger Things, 724 00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:57.920 I believe one of the producers of that show was 725 00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:01.480 a fellow by the name of Gadgusek. In fact, that 726 00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:08.079 fella's uncle was Carlton gadget Sick. Yeah, yeah, he's correct 727 00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:10.519 me if I'm wrong. He's an inteable remember right in 728 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:12.880 the Yonkers cold scene, correct, John he. 729 00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:17.519 Is alleged to have been. Yeah, he and and people 730 00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:22.960 should know he actually was a convicted child molester. Just hypotheticals. 731 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.199 He actually was convicted and served a year in prison. 732 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:28.800 So yeah, yeah, what what was he bringing like fifty 733 00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:31.280 young boys back from Micronesia or some nonsense. 734 00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:37.559 Yeah, yeah, lots of boys and he right around the 735 00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:42.519 I mean, you know it. The investigation into Gadget Sick 736 00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:45.440 and the reopening of the Son of Sam case in 737 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:50.239 nineteen ninety six. You know, it's I think a lot 738 00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:56.119 of mind started to change even back then, because suddenly 739 00:37:56.280 --> 00:38:00.519 more specific information was available, and sure, people like Gadget 740 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:03.920 Sick who were allegedly connected to the case. You could 741 00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.880 suddenly see real names and faces that were connected to 742 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.599 the case, whereas before it was something you read in 743 00:38:09.639 --> 00:38:12.960 a book and it was interesting, but you think, like, well, geez, 744 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.039 can I research this or can I find out these 745 00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:17.639 people's names? And all of a sudden you saw more, 746 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:19.760 you know, at least a few more names and faces 747 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:23.320 in the case became a lot more concrete for a 748 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:23.960 lot of people. 749 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:30.599 It's funny, It's it's funny. All these people are always related, 750 00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:34.199 Like you said, so like that Netflix, a guy that 751 00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:37.239 made that the Project Monarch, that connection right there with 752 00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:40.559 the mk Ultra stuff. Yeah, with Stranger things. 753 00:38:41.079 --> 00:38:45.400 Oh yeah, big time, big time, yeah, my control yeah, 754 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:49.559 project stuff. So do you know who so after now 755 00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:52.519 you'll you'll enjoy this fun fact about old Carlton Gadgerchek. 756 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:55.719 After he left the Yonker scene. There you moved to Washington, 757 00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:57.960 d C. And went to go work directly for Anthony Fauci. 758 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:01.880 There you go. Did that's a big club and you 759 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:02.440 ain't in it? 760 00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:05.400 Yeah, that's for damn sure. It was actually Faucy he 761 00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:07.719 was working for at the time when he h no 762 00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:10.639 one had any questions of this big fat doctor dude. 763 00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:11.239 Who works for the UNI. 764 00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:14.320 Ah just brings back fifty young boys from some strange 765 00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:15.280 South Pacific island. 766 00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:17.400 He's like, no, it's cool, that's cool. I'm their mentor. 767 00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:18.159 I'm their mentor. 768 00:39:18.360 --> 00:39:21.360 You know, no one had any questions for the guy, 769 00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:24.039 you know what I mean, Like, it's a little ridiculous. Yeah, 770 00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:26.679 So that's that Fauci coverage. That dude's hooked in. Man, 771 00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:32.159 he's got the networked in. Yeah. 772 00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:38.400 Absolutely, man. Yeah, So I'm curious, Uh, when do we 773 00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:41.159 know he got involved in that cult and how much 774 00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.239 of that? Because I'm almost so curious too because he 775 00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:47.119 he briefly mentioned uh or he did start talking about 776 00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:50.679 like being involved in a Satanic cult. But before his 777 00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:54.559 his testimony, was talking about a black dog. He was 778 00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:57.960 talking about a dog that was speaking to him. Do 779 00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:00.320 you give that any credence? Like how crazy he was? 780 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:03.000 A sky was that after the acid woar off, he 781 00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:05.519 started out the actual stuff that was going on. 782 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:08.159 Yeah, that was Harvey. He was a real He was 783 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:11.960 the Car's dog, the Car family's dog. No, I don't. 784 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.840 I've never seen the least evidence that that burkewitz Is 785 00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:20.719 is insane or or does not have a grip on reality. 786 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.639 He was. I think you could say he was an 787 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:26.079 unhappy person, you know, for various reasons, but I think 788 00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:30.719 that's about as far as it went. He you know, 789 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.360 he got involved with some very strange people. And then, 790 00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:35.480 as we were talking about earlier, there does seem to 791 00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:39.920 have been some event that prefigured all of this, possibly 792 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:45.920 in the military or from his friendship with a with 793 00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:48.880 a mutual friend who knew both him and the cars 794 00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:51.239 that he knew this guy from a very young age. 795 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:55.079 But so burke Wits may have been introduced to or 796 00:40:55.079 --> 00:40:57.199 at least you know, made aware of the cult as 797 00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:02.440 early as the late sixties or early seventies. But by 798 00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:04.960 the time he comes back home and he's gotten involved, 799 00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:09.920 we know he's involved by nineteen seventy five. I think 800 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:12.280 he's just an unhappy person who's in over his head 801 00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:17.039 and they've you know, that the cult would threaten family 802 00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:19.840 members and they would say, you know, we're you know, 803 00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:24.360 we can hurt your parents or your siblings, whatever, and 804 00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:26.880 so he he didn't want his father to get hurt. 805 00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:30.360 So he found himself doing some things that he really 806 00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:34.519 didn't want to do. And for what it's worth, I 807 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:36.960 think he's sincerely regretful about that. I think he is 808 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.519 still conflicted, but I think he sincerely regrets his involvement 809 00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:46.679 in this and the fact that he hurt anybody. The 810 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:51.239 campaign to make himself look mentally unstable was just that. 811 00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:54.159 I think it was a campaign on the part of 812 00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:58.920 the group to make his confession as the lone killer 813 00:41:59.079 --> 00:42:01.239 more effective and believable. 814 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:05.239 So yeah, yeah, the group in Rupert Murdoch New York 815 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:08.400 Post was happy to run with its Yes. 816 00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:11.639 So as far as he goes, do you think that 817 00:42:11.719 --> 00:42:15.400 they sort of like found him because always to me, 818 00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:17.760 it's like they try to find It's exactly what the 819 00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:20.400 FBI does now, right where they try to find kind 820 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.320 of kid that's troubled, uh, kind of kid that like, 821 00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:26.639 because it sounds like he liked to start fires in 822 00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:29.199 his earlier years, right, he was kind of so like 823 00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:31.719 he kind of found a kid who's like, you know, 824 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:34.039 he didn't have a good father figure. He was kind 825 00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:36.559 of a troubled kid. He had like emotional issues, he 826 00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:39.079 got kicked out of the military. He was like he 827 00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:43.800 was perfect. Yeah, that's prime material right there, exactly. 828 00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.320 Yeah. I think they did see in him the kind 829 00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:48.679 of person that they could use. Yah, as Maury said 830 00:42:48.679 --> 00:42:51.559 in the book, David was a little bit of a firebug. 831 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:55.639 He was interested in that and this group they were 832 00:42:55.920 --> 00:43:01.039 you do find uh fires consistently year after year in 833 00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:05.599 the vicinity of where these people operated before and during 834 00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:08.400 the Son of Sam years that this this was a 835 00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:15.480 major preoccupation of theirs. And yeah, by the time that 836 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:20.119 they're planning the Son of Sam attacks and Berkelewitz is 837 00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:24.320 actually at the planning meeting. Yeah, I think they saw 838 00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:26.719 him as as the kind of person who was loyal 839 00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:31.280 enough and tight lipped enough that he could be read 840 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.559 into the actual planning of the attacks. So so he 841 00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:36.440 was there when they planned it. You know, in the 842 00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:39.400 spring of nineteen seventy six, him and one other member 843 00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:43.440 of the local cult, who is an interesting figure in 844 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:44.039 his own right. 845 00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:51.280 But yeah, well we start, we can kind of move 846 00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:52.039 from there back. 847 00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:53.360 That's a good point that you make, John. 848 00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:56.199 But you know this, so this call, this Yonkers calls, 849 00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:58.320 We're calling it, you know they I've seen some comments 850 00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:01.039 the you know, Untremer Park was one of their meeting spaces, 851 00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:04.480 which interesting place on Trameyer Park with an interesting history. 852 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:08.320 But this cult before burk Witz was there, I mean, 853 00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:11.559 it was a recruiting teenage you know. Burk Witz was 854 00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.239 recruited in his early twenties, but this was recruiting folks 855 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:16.280 as early as their teenage years from my understanding, is 856 00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:16.679 that correct? 857 00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:19.280 Yes, yes, very much back and all the way back 858 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:23.920 in the early sixties. Excuse me, I think I may 859 00:44:23.960 --> 00:44:27.960 start getting a cold myself, but hope I can hold 860 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:29.320 it off for at least a couple of hours here. 861 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:33.960 But yeah, John Carr allegedly was a recruiter for the 862 00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:36.320 group at that point. He's fourteen fifteen years old, so 863 00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:42.280 he's recruiting people that he knows from school. And in 864 00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:44.840 nineteen sixty one he recruits a friend of his name, 865 00:44:44.920 --> 00:44:48.480 Paul Rainiery, who became very important witness later in the 866 00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:52.280 case that Morey interviewed extensively and who was also interviewed 867 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:55.559 by the police later in his life. But he he 868 00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:59.559 was initiated into the cult in the spring of nineteen 869 00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:02.559 sixty one one. This was a brutal initiation where he 870 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:08.079 and other teenagers were you know, drugged, bent over in 871 00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:13.199 the park, sodomized boys and girls. They heard dogs being 872 00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:17.239 killed behind them. They had dog blood poured over their 873 00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:21.800 bodies after the dogs were killed. This this is before 874 00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:23.840 the process ever came to the picture. This is how 875 00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:26.800 brutal the cult already was in the early sixties, you know. 876 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:32.199 So they were, as Maury describes it. In Paul Raine 877 00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:37.199 Eery agreed, they were kind of a a ritual magic cult. 878 00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:42.960 They performed rituals associated with Alister Crowley, the Golden Dawn, 879 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:46.360 that kind of stuff. But they were preoccupied primarily with 880 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:50.360 sex with teenage boys, although there also were some young 881 00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:59.159 girls involved in it as well. That sounds like Alistair Crowley, Yes, absolutely. 882 00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:04.800 Yeah, whenever I think Crowley's definitely the butt stuff now the. 883 00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:08.239 Magic okay, super magical that everything. 884 00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:11.800 Yeah, So, speaking of his brutal these brutal initiations, John 885 00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:15.880 Paul Rainiery. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong. He he 886 00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.639 also has a story there where he apparently drugged would 887 00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:23.239 later in life drug Jeffrey Dahmer take him back to 888 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:25.519 his apartment there in Milwaukee, wheneer he was living in 889 00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:28.159 Milwaukee at this time. Drugs Jeffrey Dahmer at a gay 890 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:30.519 club takes him home and brutally it rapes. 891 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:32.239 In with like a candlestick or something like that. 892 00:46:33.159 --> 00:46:36.480 I have heard different. He definitely, he definitely copped to knowing, 893 00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:39.440 you know, at least meeting and being acquainted with him. 894 00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:41.719 I've heard different versions of the story. 895 00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:45.880 Yeah, sometimes mad, sometimes it a candlestick maybe, who knows. 896 00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:49.480 Yeah, yeah, And so I don't you know about the particulars. 897 00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:53.599 I'm not sure how sure it was, you know, in reality, 898 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:57.320 but he he did. I'm pretty well satisfied that he 899 00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:02.400 actually did know Dahmer. Uh, Paul was. You know, he's 900 00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:07.360 another one of these conflicted people. He had a very 901 00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:09.480 you know, I mean, he was already sort of awkward 902 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:12.639 when he was initiated into the cult, and then from there, 903 00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:17.039 his his whole existence was just so scarred, you know 904 00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:21.639 that it's it's almost just unbelievable. How anybody could even 905 00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:25.920 survive those years that he survived, you know, in in 906 00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:26.599 the cult. 907 00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:30.559 Oh sure, yeah, I mean that's some brutal stuff. 908 00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:33.719 For sure, just beyond it's painful to read about. 909 00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:38.400 Absolutely, but nothing witness for sure. Yeah, even even the 910 00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:40.320 sacrifice of animals. I mean, that's got to be some 911 00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:43.320 traumatizing effects on the psyche. 912 00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:43.519 I think so. 913 00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:43.800 Yeah. 914 00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:46.199 He mentioned that in particular in one of his interviews 915 00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:48.760 with Maury. He said, you know, I didn't see it, 916 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:53.239 but I can still hear those dogs yelping and howling 917 00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:56.880 behind me the night that they initiated me. So it was, Yeah, 918 00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:00.800 it was a lifelong, you know, nightmarish memory. 919 00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:02.880 I imagine. 920 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:05.519 So the Mormons forced me to chop off some chickens 921 00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:08.719 heads on a Mormon pioneer camping trip and that went on. 922 00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:10.760 That's still traumatizing. 923 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.840 Yeah, I can only imagine it's and stuff like that 924 00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:18.639 does have a lingering effect. No matter I don't care 925 00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:21.000 how much counseling you have or how much medication you 926 00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:23.239 can take. Here, there are gonna be times where you're 927 00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:25.800 just sitting around, not thinking about anything in particular, and 928 00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:27.400 those things are gonna come back to you. 929 00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:31.039 It's yeah, and it's yeah, for sure, I said someone Jess. 930 00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:32.880 But obviously yeah, the sacrif I mean kind of a 931 00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:36.039 chicken said that's dinner. But obviously witnessing the sacrifice of 932 00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:37.800 all these dogs, which seems to be the m of 933 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:40.239 these cults, right like, whatever it is they're up to, 934 00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:42.239 there is a trail of dead dog as that goes around. 935 00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:45.400 With this there is, and with these people in particular, 936 00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:50.159 the German shepherds seem to have been really significant to 937 00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:52.519 their I don't know what you would call it doctrine 938 00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:55.440 or theology or whatever, but there were always German shepherds 939 00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:58.679 even before the process, which is interesting because we can 940 00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:02.559 trace the presence of German shepherd's in that neighborhood, in 941 00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:05.559 the car Berkelwitz neighborhood, all the way back to nineteen 942 00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:08.440 twenty five when a man who lived at twenty two 943 00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:11.360 Wicker Street, which figures prominently in the case that's right 944 00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:14.079 around the corner from the cars and just below the 945 00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:16.840 building that Berkelewitz lived in, he had a vicious German 946 00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:21.079 shepherd that got loose and attacked a female pedestrian. That house, 947 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:25.159 twenty two Wicker is right alongside the aqueduct path that 948 00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:30.480 leads to hunter Meyer Park. So find the presence of 949 00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:33.960 these kinds of dogs, in particular, going all the way 950 00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:36.360 back well a century. Now, this was in March of 951 00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:41.079 nineteen twenty five, So something odd was happening in that 952 00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:43.960 neighborhood for for a long time. Yeah. 953 00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:46.360 So that's and that's kind of one of the key 954 00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:48.800 tenants of your book. Correct, is this cold activity does 955 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:52.559 date back in Yonkers with a similar similar, similar racialistic 956 00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:55.159 activities like you're pointing out with the dead dogs, Yeah, 957 00:49:55.159 --> 00:49:56.320 back to the nineteen twenties. 958 00:49:56.639 --> 00:49:59.440 Yes, yes, that's right. The odd little story. 959 00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:01.079 Is a long span, it really is. 960 00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:03.079 And I ran up on that story almost by accident. 961 00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:06.039 I was looking for something else entirely, but I kept 962 00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:12.639 finding odd incidents in that neighborhood and I thought, well, what, 963 00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:15.960 you know, what was happening here and what was the 964 00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:18.639 significance of it? And I don't you know, there's still 965 00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:21.159 a lot of questions to be answered, but I think 966 00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:24.280 I found enough circumstantial evidence to indicate that there was 967 00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:27.039 cult activity there from a pretty early date. 968 00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:28.719 Yeah. 969 00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:31.920 Now, Jonathan, we had somebody in the We had somebody 970 00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:33.960 in the chat asking about your book. Do you want 971 00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:37.880 to do a quick plug her name. She has a 972 00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:40.840 true crime podcast. Actually, uh, I'd love to hook you 973 00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:44.199 guys up after this. She has a pretty, uh, pretty 974 00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:46.320 good little following there. I think that would be awesome. 975 00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:49.280 But yeah, here's the book, and Jonathan, if you want 976 00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:51.119 to just do a quick little plug. Sorry, yeah, this 977 00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:53.079 is your show, JJ. 978 00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:54.519 But no knock it out. 979 00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:56.480 In fact, I sent a private message to put that 980 00:50:56.519 --> 00:50:59.840 in your rumble chat the Lincoln. I posted it here, but 981 00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:01.800 I'd realized it was in your your rumble chat that 982 00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:04.400 came from Now go ahead, John, sure. 983 00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:09.639 Yeah, it's it's mainly about the cult prior to Burkelewitz, 984 00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:11.719 although I do touch on Berklewitz and the Son of 985 00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:14.880 Sam murders and even the aftermath there to some extent, 986 00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:18.280 But it's it's mainly about the history of the cult 987 00:51:18.280 --> 00:51:20.800 prior to Berkowitz, and I just tried to make it 988 00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:23.800 as uh as real and solid as I could for 989 00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:26.719 the reader, and use as many real names and as 990 00:51:26.719 --> 00:51:30.480 many real, you know, verified incidents from newspapers or research 991 00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:34.440 that I conducted with family members or friends of suspects 992 00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.559 and victims as I possibly could find. So it's about 993 00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:41.119 forty five pages long, and uh, it's just I intended 994 00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:45.440 it just as a kind of supplement to Maury's book. Awesome, 995 00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:48.360 So thank you guys. I appreciate it. 996 00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:49.440 Yeah, for sure. 997 00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:51.920 And Desert Rains asking is there another place to purchase 998 00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:52.920 this besides Amazon? 999 00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:58.800 I don't have any hard copies now unfortunately, But and 1000 00:51:58.840 --> 00:52:01.840 I believe does it rain follow me on on x 1001 00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:06.159 or Twitter? So I'd be happy If she can't get 1002 00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:08.519 it via Kindle. I could just send her the text, 1003 00:52:08.559 --> 00:52:10.719 you know, I could just send it as a as 1004 00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:12.960 a Google share thing, but I'd be happy to do 1005 00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:16.079 that if she If she can't read it electronically. 1006 00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:17.880 There you go, does it ring? Yes, she's a prolific 1007 00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:20.280 Twitter user. We definitely we communicate in there. 1008 00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:20.679 Quite a bit. 1009 00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:22.599 So yeah, I'm glad to all. 1010 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:25.039 Connect on there for sure. Okay, there she goes, Yep 1011 00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:28.079 the no. 1012 00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:30.599 So I think that's an interesting You bring up an 1013 00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:33.440 interesting perspective. Have this this the soup in which this 1014 00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:37.599 later Yonkers processed church cult movement grow into. And I 1015 00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:39.800 think one of the interesting perspective, at least to me, is, 1016 00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:43.039 you know, relative to these topics and the intelligence operations, 1017 00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:45.679 et cetera, is that the deep state nature of these 1018 00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:48.840 satanic cults specifically, you know, not just a keynote, but 1019 00:52:48.920 --> 00:52:53.519 you know, specifically the processed church relative tonight's conversation, you know. 1020 00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:55.239 And one of the one of the interesting law enforcement 1021 00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:57.599 characters you find there are Yonkers running the police department 1022 00:52:57.639 --> 00:52:59.840 and in the time frame you're talking about, in fact, 1023 00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:02.639 he was a sergeant in the Detective Bureau. And Yonkers 1024 00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:07.239 was none of the James Combey's grandfather, William Comeey. Yeah, 1025 00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:10.840 and I often wonder, you know, the characters like James 1026 00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:14.840 Comey do they he would William Combey would later retire 1027 00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:16.039 as the head of the Ankers PD. 1028 00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:19.119 He was a commissioner well New York in general, it's 1029 00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:22.159 kind of like it's old mafia families, Like if you 1030 00:53:22.360 --> 00:53:24.760 want to be a somebody in New York, your grandfather 1031 00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:27.360 had to be a somebody in New York, right exactly. 1032 00:53:28.119 --> 00:53:31.519 It really is, that's for sure. 1033 00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:32.840 That's a Now, that's a great way to put it. 1034 00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:36.519 That is how it goes. Yeah. 1035 00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:38.719 So and when I look at the people like Kobe, 1036 00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:40.280 I'm like, well, yeah, again, you know, like you said, 1037 00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:43.519 he's born, he's born into these positions. So he's inheriting 1038 00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:46.280 these these roles and I think it's interesting that the 1039 00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:49.119 key role he plays. You know, he was deemed Republican 1040 00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:51.800 for many years. It's just that's Tom Fuller, you know, 1041 00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:54.559 Uni Party nonsense. But what he really was was the 1042 00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:58.599 clon bag man. Even though George Bush was appointing him 1043 00:53:58.599 --> 00:54:02.360 to various positions within the Department the Justice, the roles 1044 00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:04.400 he was, he was coming in for private industry to 1045 00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:07.440 bury a Clinton situation. For example, his first one was 1046 00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:11.559 he was assigned by George Bush to investigate Bill Clinton's 1047 00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:13.679 pardon of a fellow by the name of Mark Rich 1048 00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:16.440 Bill Clinton. One of his out the door pardons was 1049 00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:18.400 a guy who was the number one man on the 1050 00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:21.079 or number he was on the FBI's most wanted list. 1051 00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:23.159 I think he was number maybe number two. He was 1052 00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:26.360 a George Soros type character name named Mark Rich. He 1053 00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:29.079 hadn't even been convicted of anything to be pardoned from. 1054 00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:32.199 He was simply charged in on an FBI's wanted list 1055 00:54:33.039 --> 00:54:35.280 and Clinton pardoned him. So there was a lot of 1056 00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:37.960 I still don't think it's legal, but they brought Comey 1057 00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:40.360 and you know, do one of these numbers and say 1058 00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:43.119 it was legal. So that was his first job as 1059 00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:45.119 far as being the Clintons bagman. So I find it 1060 00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:49.440 interesting he's from Westchester County. There in Westchester County, you know, 1061 00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:51.199 that's where they set up shot by these He has 1062 00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:53.639 a lot of weird stuff. I'm not I'm not advocating 1063 00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:56.239 for Westchester County to be you know, nuclear bomb or anything. 1064 00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:57.760 I'm just saying there's a lot of weird shit that 1065 00:54:57.760 --> 00:55:00.480 goes on in Westchester County. A lot of accults, you know, 1066 00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:02.000 the Rockefeller Estates. 1067 00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:02.840 There are a lot of a lot of. 1068 00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:05.880 Old money stuff going on there. The Kennedy's for example, 1069 00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:09.920 you know RFK when he was murdered by the process, 1070 00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:12.920 you know, ostensibly murdered by the process, as all the 1071 00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:17.440 legends go, and all the evidence seems to suggest, you know, 1072 00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:21.119 sir Hanster on attending process uh you know, uh sex 1073 00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:24.760 sex rituals apparently as well, according to some investigative reports. 1074 00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:27.400 But nonetheless RFK, senator from New York at the time, 1075 00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:29.599 lived in Westchester County. 1076 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:33.920 But don't worry, the government investigated itself and found that 1077 00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:35.960 they were just he like. 1078 00:55:36.039 --> 00:55:37.559 Guys, we're not guilty, all right. 1079 00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:41.119 I just think, you know, I think that you know, 1080 00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:43.039 there's some of these elements, so you know, One of 1081 00:55:43.039 --> 00:55:44.920 the other elements I think that comes of mind is 1082 00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:48.480 the seemingly deep connections between the upper echelon of the 1083 00:55:48.519 --> 00:55:51.519 national security state of America and uh, you know, the 1084 00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:55.440 Nazis that took over forty seven and uh you know 1085 00:55:55.559 --> 00:55:58.559 via the National Security Act, the you know, deeply connected 1086 00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:02.159 folks who were making those national security decisions, stamping things 1087 00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:05.559 national security, which I think takes like three signatures, you know, 1088 00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:08.400 folks like a Wall or Henry Kissinger, you know, his 1089 00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:12.760 close connections with this processed Church activity there out of 1090 00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:19.920 out of Westchester County and his underling Brince Gocroft, who 1091 00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:23.239 would employ as an assistant and apparently a speech writer, 1092 00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:26.360 a leader in the neo processed Church. A fellow by 1093 00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:28.960 the name of J. J. Bryn, real creepy son of 1094 00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:32.119 a bitch, operated a number of art galleries, very spooky. 1095 00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:35.440 He was involved doing some really weird, malicious stuff. I 1096 00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:37.960 believe in Lebanon he got picked up doing some spook stuff. 1097 00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:40.280 But anyhow, he was a he was a prominent leader 1098 00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:43.920 in this neo process movement. Again, right hand man to 1099 00:56:44.119 --> 00:56:46.559 Kenry Kissinger's right hand man after and he was this 1100 00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:48.920 guy was after Kissinger Scowcroft was. 1101 00:56:48.880 --> 00:56:51.159 A national security advisor to numerous. 1102 00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:53.719 Presidents, So we're talking about two dudes who are on 1103 00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:56.719 a shortlist of folks stamping things. National security seemed to 1104 00:56:56.719 --> 00:57:01.480 be deeply interrelated with the processed Church, so it's not 1105 00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:02.000 just coming. 1106 00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:04.559 I think the influence does extend all the way up 1107 00:57:04.599 --> 00:57:10.280 the ladder. Unfortunately, there are people in positions of huge 1108 00:57:10.360 --> 00:57:13.159 power who really are into this stuff and they're serious about. 1109 00:57:12.920 --> 00:57:15.679 It, right right, It seems that way, right, And that's 1110 00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:17.239 that was kind of seems like that was kind of 1111 00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:20.079 Maury's stuff. So I don't want to go too far 1112 00:57:20.119 --> 00:57:22.039 into the whole Mory's notes to Bacle, I mean, why 1113 00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:23.599 we do want to discuss it somewhere here with you. 1114 00:57:23.639 --> 00:57:25.719 But how far have you gotten into some of those 1115 00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:28.840 files and releases, the files of of the quote unquote 1116 00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:31.280 Terry files, the the what I just like to call 1117 00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:35.039 the limited Hangout, but the Terry files that were released. 1118 00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:40.239 The I have, I'm pretty familiar with them by now, 1119 00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:44.840 and there was a point where I was I've stayed 1120 00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:47.000 up for about three days reading through all of them, 1121 00:57:47.039 --> 00:57:48.639 and then that slept for a little while and went 1122 00:57:48.679 --> 00:57:51.159 through them again. But yeah, there's a wealth of stuff 1123 00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:54.559 in there, and it confirms not only some of the 1124 00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:57.199 things Maury said over the years, most of what he 1125 00:57:57.239 --> 00:58:00.840 said in fact, but it also confirmed large parts of 1126 00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:03.599 what I was saying, what I suspected, what I concluded 1127 00:58:03.679 --> 00:58:07.719 via my own research. So the files definitely were helpful. 1128 00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:15.239 I mean they named. 1129 00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:14.159 Those pseudonyms right, well, yeah. 1130 00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:16.840 We only knew them as pseudonyms. Or in fact, there 1131 00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:19.360 were some people that he he didn't know about at 1132 00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.920 all when he wrote the original book that we know 1133 00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:25.719 about now, and he, you know, by nineteen ninety seven, 1134 00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:28.239 he had typed up what we call the Flipper List 1135 00:58:28.280 --> 00:58:32.480 of witnesses, meaning people that he thought were or could 1136 00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:35.199 be flipp or should be you know, by the police 1137 00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:39.400 who could offer enough evidence to conclusively solve the case. 1138 00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:43.440 And he typed up a list of I don't know, 1139 00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:47.639 at least a couple of dozen people, but uh. 1140 00:58:47.679 --> 00:58:49.159 One of which was a beam son. 1141 00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:55.440 Right, A Beam had an aide who was deeply involved 1142 00:58:55.480 --> 00:58:55.960 in this stuff. 1143 00:58:56.039 --> 00:58:58.960 Yeah, well, I believe one of his son was on 1144 00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:00.320 that same list of anom miss taking. 1145 00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:02.079 I believe it is an ed Beam. 1146 00:59:02.119 --> 00:59:07.119 Maybe I'm trying to think if if the sun I 1147 00:59:07.239 --> 00:59:09.400 know of the two aides and one of them was 1148 00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:11.559 was a close aid. I would have to go back 1149 00:59:11.559 --> 00:59:14.519 and see if the sun was on there. 1150 00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:16.760 That brings you to part for sure, that brings you to 1151 00:59:16.760 --> 00:59:18.159 my next point. That brings you to the next point. 1152 00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:20.280 If I just may make this point, then once again, 1153 00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:22.440 if the mayor's son is in the cult and the 1154 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:25.559 New York City's they're not going to investigate the mayor 1155 00:59:25.559 --> 00:59:27.199 and his son or like the mayor's son's not gonna 1156 00:59:27.199 --> 00:59:28.760 you know what I mean, Like that's I think that's 1157 00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:31.079 the nature of people want to say there was investigations 1158 00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:32.400 and these things were there. 1159 00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:34.320 I mean, there's a lot of things to point too 1160 00:59:34.639 --> 00:59:35.280 that there wasn't. 1161 00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:37.440 But I'm just saying, like when you take into that factor, 1162 00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:39.360 like they're not gonna do shit if the mayor sons 1163 00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:41.599 involved in these kinds of activities or the mayor's aides. 1164 00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:45.199 Right when it extended that far, there was no way 1165 00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:48.199 on it because we know that just before Burkelewitz's arrest 1166 00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:50.400 they were searching for the yellow VW that had been 1167 00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:54.119 seen at the last attack, right moment burkele Witz's arrest, 1168 00:59:54.199 --> 00:59:56.519 at all that stuff about the yellow v W, the 1169 00:59:56.559 --> 00:59:59.679 sketches of what are obviously different suspects. You know, all 1170 00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:02.719 of that just goes completely out the window and all 1171 01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:04.639 of a sudden, it's just this one guy. So, yeah, 1172 01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:07.079 the case, they never even made a case. They just 1173 01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:09.199 said this is the guy, and he agreed that he 1174 01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:10.719 was the guy, and that was the end of it. 1175 01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:14.159 They never made any sort of error type case against 1176 01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:16.159 David Berkowitz at all. And I think a lot of 1177 01:00:16.159 --> 01:00:18.920 people probably don't realize that. They assumed that he went 1178 01:00:18.960 --> 01:00:21.039 to trial. He didn't. He just confessed. 1179 01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:22.119 That's it. 1180 01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:22.880 That's the end of it. 1181 01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:26.199 Yeah, And and they and he had his like a 1182 01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:30.159 joint hearing of three three all three counties judges came 1183 01:00:30.159 --> 01:00:32.039 into one one room and they all just convicted him 1184 01:00:32.039 --> 01:00:32.360 at once. 1185 01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:38.320 Yes, it's very unheard of American jurisprudence. Was Yeah. 1186 01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:40.920 Another character that may may factor in this, this powerful 1187 01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:44.000 network that has put a lid on these things. Felt 1188 01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:46.480 you're gonna be familiar with their Nate Roy Kohne. 1189 01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:48.039 Yeah, I did. 1190 01:00:49.039 --> 01:00:51.480 Yeah, he made the list. He's on He's on Terry's 1191 01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:57.000 list as being a member of this cult. Something that's 1192 01:00:57.039 --> 01:00:58.519 when he really come to light in recent years when 1193 01:00:58.639 --> 01:01:03.039 Terry's files because in public, you know, through a very 1194 01:01:03.159 --> 01:01:05.320 varying measures in which to keep those away from the 1195 01:01:05.320 --> 01:01:07.519 public that you know, have been going on since twenty sixteen. 1196 01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:10.719 It appears they include folks like James Franco, Hollywood actor 1197 01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:16.199 and alleged rapists of young young women, James Franco, the 1198 01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:18.639 uh you know. But so I think there's a lot 1199 01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:20.599 of these characters that have factored into that. But yeah, 1200 01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:23.079 on these on these notes. So yeah, there, John, It 1201 01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:25.360 seems to me I have a list of I got, 1202 01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:28.920 I got, I got a list of files circa August 1203 01:01:28.960 --> 01:01:34.159 I think of twenty twenty three, Yeah, twenty twenty three. 1204 01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:38.639 Comparing those files to things like this website, I'm like, well, 1205 01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:42.440 there's something going on here, you know. I mean, there's 1206 01:01:42.440 --> 01:01:44.840 an effort speaking to this concerted effort. I'm like, well, 1207 01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:48.159 when you start comparing some of the stuff, the stuff 1208 01:01:48.159 --> 01:01:51.800 that I was sent versus the information on this now 1209 01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:55.360 infamous website, the people versus David Berkowitz, which I believe 1210 01:01:55.400 --> 01:01:57.159 populated around that same time. 1211 01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:03.599 It did, Yeah, I think, uh, you know, there there 1212 01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:07.920 are very relevant things on that website, including the flipper list, 1213 01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:11.119 which I find very significant, was a lot of help 1214 01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:13.039 in confirming my own. 1215 01:02:13.960 --> 01:02:15.559 We pull up that list real quick while you're talking 1216 01:02:15.559 --> 01:02:17.400 about in that member which section. 1217 01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:20.719 It's Uh, it'll be in the newly added documents, and 1218 01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:24.079 it'll be there's pretty far down the index page. There 1219 01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:29.519 is a more Tarry page. Uh, and it's all in capitals. 1220 01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:34.440 Let's see mine in the right department. 1221 01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:41.280 Yeah, I think so, maybe just a little bit further down. Yeah, 1222 01:02:41.360 --> 01:02:45.159 let's say, yeah, newly updated more Arry investigation files page 1223 01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:48.760 on December sixteenth of yeah, twenty twenty three. And I 1224 01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:51.960 believe it's going to be to the side there. Yeah, 1225 01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:57.000 that just below that right there. Moritary's list of individuals 1226 01:02:57.000 --> 01:02:59.679 alleged to be Son of Sam cult members and associates. Yeah, 1227 01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:02.559 that's a very helpful list. They'll show people a lot 1228 01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:06.440 of the names that they've always wondered about and explained, 1229 01:03:06.519 --> 01:03:09.119 you know, at least some of their significance in relation 1230 01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:11.920 not just to the Son of Sam crimes, but to 1231 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:15.400 their their long term membership in the cult. The first 1232 01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:17.880 two names on that list are Ace Brown and Sue 1233 01:03:17.880 --> 01:03:24.599 Conway made it. Yeah, yeah, there there's Ace definitely was 1234 01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:27.360 number one, but Sue would be a close second. I've 1235 01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:30.519 researched her for a number of years and Uh, it 1236 01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:35.599 only got more sordid and more interesting. She was, Uh, well, 1237 01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:37.480 I don't want to spoil it, but I there's a 1238 01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:40.159 lot about her in my booklet that's uh that I 1239 01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:41.440 think people will find interesting. 1240 01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:46.039 Yeah, so this is these are these are some relevant points, 1241 01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:48.760 just the great stuff for saying here, John, So these documents, 1242 01:03:48.800 --> 01:03:52.599 I have a different list of documents, right then what's 1243 01:03:52.639 --> 01:03:55.760 on that website? Like I've done an all inclusive thing, 1244 01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:58.000 but like even the letters from Burkowitz, I have a 1245 01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:01.039 different list of letters from Burke Wooz. And like you said, 1246 01:04:01.400 --> 01:04:03.119 you stayed up and read all these things when you 1247 01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:05.280 started looking at these files, I did the same thing. 1248 01:04:05.719 --> 01:04:08.119 Yeah I haven't. I haven't read them in about a year, 1249 01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:10.440 you know, you know, at least an overview. But I 1250 01:04:10.519 --> 01:04:13.239 mean I have my pretty good memory. 1251 01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:15.280 I could tell you what's in this files, and I 1252 01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:17.239 can tell you what what just look at that website. 1253 01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:20.880 Not only dan Over that Roddy Jewles has pointed out 1254 01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:23.400 the folks on that website that are listed this process 1255 01:04:23.519 --> 01:04:26.679 church members, numerous numerous parties are misidentified. Whether or not 1256 01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:30.039 that's intentional or not, I'm leaning towards it probably is. 1257 01:04:30.119 --> 01:04:34.599 But the photos, Yeah, are are ye. I'm trying to 1258 01:04:34.639 --> 01:04:38.079 think of one example. There was there's a sketch of 1259 01:04:38.119 --> 01:04:40.400 a guy named Jeff, and then there's somebody else who 1260 01:04:40.480 --> 01:04:42.800 is also identified as Jeff, but they're two different people. 1261 01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:45.360 And I can't remember who the guy who's misidentified is. 1262 01:04:45.400 --> 01:04:48.840 But yeah, yes, some of that, Yeah, sure, I know 1263 01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:50.840 one of them is Robert de Grimston's brother. They haven't 1264 01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:53.519 listened Robert de Grimston even though it's his brother. Yeah, 1265 01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:56.239 so my guess my question is. 1266 01:04:56.519 --> 01:04:58.519 His name is misspelled. I don't know if that was 1267 01:04:58.599 --> 01:05:01.599 intentional or just you know that that part could have 1268 01:05:01.639 --> 01:05:03.079 been an honest mistake, but you never know. 1269 01:05:03.400 --> 01:05:07.599 Yeah, So have you ever seen any documents with so 1270 01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:09.719 those are those are the documents that you've seen? It 1271 01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:13.519 just the folks off the people versus David Berkowitz, and that. 1272 01:05:14.039 --> 01:05:16.880 Is part of it. Yeah, what they have posted is 1273 01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:23.039 part of it. There are other things various, you know more. 1274 01:05:23.079 --> 01:05:25.599 He wrote a lot of things down behind in later years. 1275 01:05:26.079 --> 01:05:28.800 A lot of is difficult to read. But there's a 1276 01:05:28.840 --> 01:05:30.079 lot of that sort of stuff too. 1277 01:05:32.719 --> 01:05:33.440 I just think it's weird. 1278 01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:35.880 So you have these different like so that these are 1279 01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:38.400 the Terry files right on this website right, we're just 1280 01:05:38.440 --> 01:05:40.239 looking at and I have a different set and it 1281 01:05:40.280 --> 01:05:42.320 seems like there was even maybe a third different set 1282 01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:44.119 of stuff that was sent out. It just seems like 1283 01:05:44.199 --> 01:05:47.039 there was this again, back to these concerted efforts, this 1284 01:05:47.519 --> 01:05:49.480 misinformation disinformation campaign. 1285 01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:51.440 I don't know what the ing game is to do this, 1286 01:05:51.559 --> 01:05:53.599 but it seems like this was a concerted effort. 1287 01:05:53.360 --> 01:05:58.320 To send varying you know, maybe maybe again the list 1288 01:05:58.360 --> 01:05:59.880 of folks that I have in mind, or we can 1289 01:05:59.920 --> 01:06:02.239 go over to the future show of you like it's 1290 01:06:02.280 --> 01:06:03.840 different than what's on that website. I just wanted to 1291 01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:06.280 I wanted to kind of touch your ideas on what 1292 01:06:06.360 --> 01:06:08.360 you thought of what's going on here, Like what do 1293 01:06:08.440 --> 01:06:11.599 you think is going on with these the the shifting 1294 01:06:11.679 --> 01:06:14.559 nature of this, So Maury Terry dies and you know, 1295 01:06:14.639 --> 01:06:18.440 his files are suddenly this weird, contentious matter and they're 1296 01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:20.440 again now that there's varying. 1297 01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:22.840 Releases of these, it's like it feels like a WikiLeaks release, 1298 01:06:22.880 --> 01:06:22.960 you know. 1299 01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:26.199 I mean, like they're suddenly just dropping these random tranches 1300 01:06:26.239 --> 01:06:28.599 of files on folks, and they're different files. I'm not 1301 01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:31.239 saying WikiLeaks sends out different files. I'm just saying these 1302 01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:33.639 weird drops of these files, Just why wouldn't it all 1303 01:06:33.679 --> 01:06:35.480 be at once, Why wouldn't it be like Ed Sanders 1304 01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:38.000 in the library that he he donated his up to 1305 01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:40.800 Princeton Library. I've seen to it's you know, it's not well, 1306 01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:44.079 very well organized, but at least it's kind of collected 1307 01:06:44.119 --> 01:06:45.840 in one one spot, right and available. 1308 01:06:46.719 --> 01:06:49.239 Yeah, I'd be curious to see what the second batch 1309 01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:50.960 looks like because I don't know if I've seen any 1310 01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:55.440 of that at all. But that's interesting. The people more 1311 01:06:55.599 --> 01:06:57.719 identified there in the Flipper list, I know, just from 1312 01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:01.119 my own research and from talking to various folks who 1313 01:07:01.199 --> 01:07:02.679 knew about Morey's research at the. 1314 01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:03.000 Time, that. 1315 01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:08.920 Those folks definitely were involved. But those are like firstier 1316 01:07:09.679 --> 01:07:12.079 level of of the you know, the street level members 1317 01:07:12.119 --> 01:07:16.000 of of the cult. Uh so, so those folks definitely 1318 01:07:16.039 --> 01:07:21.159 were involved. We're talking about the Conways, the John Defrinza's, 1319 01:07:21.360 --> 01:07:24.960 the Sperazas, those folks that they definitely were involved. But 1320 01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:29.119 but I'd be curious to see this additional batch of 1321 01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:30.800 stuff because I don't I don't know if I've seen 1322 01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:31.239 any of that. 1323 01:07:32.920 --> 01:07:33.320 Interesting. 1324 01:07:33.639 --> 01:07:38.679 Yeah, she was, Yeah, and of course Tiny Lentini was involved. 1325 01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:41.400 Yeah, so Lentini's not even on the list that I'm 1326 01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:44.960 talking about the whole really different. 1327 01:07:45.480 --> 01:07:47.400 That may be a shorter list, was it sort of 1328 01:07:47.480 --> 01:07:49.760 did it say something about like being a working list 1329 01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:52.239 of of the twenty two disciples maybe was it a 1330 01:07:52.280 --> 01:07:52.760 list like that? 1331 01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:55.760 I think so, Yeah, yeah, that may have been. 1332 01:07:56.360 --> 01:07:58.159 And I think that was just a working list at 1333 01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:00.599 one time. I'm not sure what what the day that was, 1334 01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:06.559 but more exisiting later. Yeah, but he did get a 1335 01:08:06.679 --> 01:08:09.760 working list that I think Howard wise he added and 1336 01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:12.199 and handwriting at the bottom. And he was a friend 1337 01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:15.880 of Burkelewitz. Is he He definitely was like associated with 1338 01:08:15.920 --> 01:08:19.039 the cult, but burklewitoz City wasn't a member. But yeah, 1339 01:08:19.159 --> 01:08:21.840 I think the first list had maybe a couple dozen 1340 01:08:21.880 --> 01:08:24.560 people on it or else. Yeah. 1341 01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:31.119 Yeah, So Jonathan, how active is this cult still ongoing? 1342 01:08:31.439 --> 01:08:33.520 Is this called kind of dright up at this point? 1343 01:08:34.079 --> 01:08:36.640 And we kind of know that like kind of like 1344 01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:39.680 what you said earlier, JJ, It's like, I don't I 1345 01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:41.840 don't remember the metaphor you used, but it's kind of 1346 01:08:41.880 --> 01:08:45.319 like how they say the Illuminati ended in like seventeen 1347 01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:48.079 eighty five, Well we know it didn't, right, So it's 1348 01:08:48.600 --> 01:08:53.439 so if if this cult is still ongoing. Is is 1349 01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:58.000 Burkelewood's actually naming names at this point, I'm curious, like, 1350 01:08:58.039 --> 01:08:59.439 how much money do we have to put in his 1351 01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:01.000 commissary to get him on the show. 1352 01:09:01.079 --> 01:09:01.600 Do you think. 1353 01:09:03.640 --> 01:09:06.720 I don't know? He he did name names to Maury 1354 01:09:07.079 --> 01:09:09.560 when this case was reopened, you know, in nineteen ninety 1355 01:09:09.560 --> 01:09:12.359 six to ninety seven, he did, he he, he, and 1356 01:09:12.479 --> 01:09:15.439 he signed off on, you know, a longer list, which 1357 01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:20.840 is also been posted to the People Versus Berkowitz page. 1358 01:09:22.119 --> 01:09:24.920 Since then, I believe he has been very reluctant to 1359 01:09:25.439 --> 01:09:31.439 talk about the case in general. He I think the 1360 01:09:31.520 --> 01:09:34.479 information we have in Maury's files is probably as close 1361 01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:37.119 as we're going to get to saying Okay, this is 1362 01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:41.039 definitely who is involved. I'm sure other people were involved 1363 01:09:41.079 --> 01:09:44.920 who have not been named, who we can't identify, unfortunately, 1364 01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:48.319 probably at this point. But but this this is a 1365 01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:54.399 pretty good guidebook here, just the flipper list, because I 1366 01:09:54.520 --> 01:09:58.600 can't tell you how many dozens of awkward phone calls 1367 01:09:58.640 --> 01:10:01.920 I've made, emails, I've scent sometimes I've sent letters even 1368 01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:03.680 in the mail when I couldn't find any other way 1369 01:10:03.680 --> 01:10:05.760 to get in touch with somebody, And I have actually 1370 01:10:05.760 --> 01:10:09.279 gotten people to contact me back via snail mail. But 1371 01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:14.199 what morey typed out here in this list, these were 1372 01:10:14.359 --> 01:10:20.560 the core people who were involved. Uh, and they you know, 1373 01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:24.680 if you find people who knew them, they a lot 1374 01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:26.479 of times people won't talk a lot of times people 1375 01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:29.039 are still uncomfortable about it, regardless. 1376 01:10:28.479 --> 01:10:31.359 Of you know, the passage, right, it's kind of mob. 1377 01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:35.079 Is. Yeah, but sometimes you run up on somebody and 1378 01:10:35.119 --> 01:10:37.640 you just catch them in the right mood and they 1379 01:10:37.840 --> 01:10:40.760 tell you some some pretty good stuff. 1380 01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:41.159 Yeah. 1381 01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:45.840 Yeah, yes, So according to this uh this this this 1382 01:10:45.920 --> 01:10:49.800 blurb here regarding this quintin bieber Fella, It's like, yeah, 1383 01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:53.239 Jane and Mansfield was seen at entre Myer Park rituals. 1384 01:10:53.520 --> 01:10:55.560 Yeah, she wasn't. In fact, Paul Raine Eery said he 1385 01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:57.479 met her there in that she participated in one of 1386 01:10:57.520 --> 01:11:00.920 their occult sex rituals her. 1387 01:11:01.359 --> 01:11:01.479 Uh. 1388 01:11:02.039 --> 01:11:04.079 I don't know if they were actually married or not, 1389 01:11:04.239 --> 01:11:06.640 but her manager and he was her boyfriend anyway, but 1390 01:11:06.680 --> 01:11:09.359 possibly they were married. I'm a little fuzzy on if 1391 01:11:09.399 --> 01:11:12.119 they were common law or if they were legally married. 1392 01:11:12.159 --> 01:11:15.199 But was a fellow named Matt Simber who was from 1393 01:11:15.279 --> 01:11:17.319 Younkers and growing up there, going to high school there. 1394 01:11:18.199 --> 01:11:21.600 Kind of a shady character. He directed a really strange 1395 01:11:21.680 --> 01:11:26.199 movie later in life called The Witch Who Came from 1396 01:11:26.239 --> 01:11:29.560 the Sea, which is a very disturbing, bizarre movie about 1397 01:11:29.640 --> 01:11:35.520 child sexual abuse. Yeah. He he was around that scene too, 1398 01:11:37.640 --> 01:11:39.880 Quentin Biever was. Yeah, he was part of that little 1399 01:11:41.159 --> 01:11:45.279 actors troupe, the Saint Mary's Players, and Berkowitz recalled him 1400 01:11:45.399 --> 01:11:47.960 as somebody who was also associated with the cult, in 1401 01:11:48.079 --> 01:11:52.439 particular it's odd sex practices and sex parties. 1402 01:11:52.600 --> 01:11:52.800 Yeah. 1403 01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:56.039 Yeah, So I think to answer your question writ some 1404 01:11:56.119 --> 01:11:58.920 contexts and to your questionnaire, not only is this stuff 1405 01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:01.079 going on, but you know, again speaking to to why 1406 01:12:01.159 --> 01:12:04.079 or not Burke Whit's name, folks, Yeah, I mean also 1407 01:12:04.119 --> 01:12:06.399 about Burka Witz and Terry, from what I've seen throughout 1408 01:12:06.439 --> 01:12:09.239 their correspondence is they had a very close relations and 1409 01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:11.000 looking at some of their letters back and forth from 1410 01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:14.279 each other in Terry's files for many years, you know, 1411 01:12:14.399 --> 01:12:18.279 talking all sorts of subjects from sports to life. But nonetheless, 1412 01:12:18.600 --> 01:12:22.079 he definitely seemed to trust Terry and again pointed, you 1413 01:12:22.159 --> 01:12:25.000 know a lot of stuff Terry investigating himself from my understanding, 1414 01:12:25.079 --> 01:12:27.680 but Burke Wits would confirm. But nonetheless he has he 1415 01:12:27.760 --> 01:12:30.640 has provided information. But you know, speaking again to this, 1416 01:12:30.720 --> 01:12:33.720 is this stuff going on while Jane Mansfield's daughter is 1417 01:12:33.800 --> 01:12:36.640 a very prominent actress in Hollywood still today, so or 1418 01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:38.760 at least the New York side of Hollywood, right, I 1419 01:12:38.800 --> 01:12:40.840 believe one of the Law and Order shows. 1420 01:12:40.920 --> 01:12:41.319 That's right. 1421 01:12:41.399 --> 01:12:44.960 Yeah, So you know you have the offsprings of these folks. 1422 01:12:44.960 --> 01:12:47.479 And again speaking of another offspring that's famous in this 1423 01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:51.039 kind of processed church narrative, one Terry Melcher of the 1424 01:12:51.119 --> 01:12:53.960 Beach Boys fame. He you know, he wrote one of 1425 01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:57.560 their famous songs from the Tom Cruise Bartending film from 1426 01:12:57.560 --> 01:13:02.119 the eighties, cocktail Kocomo, written by Terry Melcher, son of 1427 01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:05.840 Doris Day who Doris Days all involved in this kind 1428 01:13:05.880 --> 01:13:09.159 of Hollywood process angles. So it was Terry Melcher who 1429 01:13:09.920 --> 01:13:13.520 who was living there at the uh the Tate Polanski 1430 01:13:13.600 --> 01:13:17.359 home prior to uh, you know Tate Pilansky movieon and 1431 01:13:17.840 --> 01:13:20.239 you know, New New and was friends with Charles Manson. 1432 01:13:20.800 --> 01:13:24.119 So I didn't we You and I were talking about 1433 01:13:24.159 --> 01:13:26.279 it a little bit before we even got started recording 1434 01:13:26.800 --> 01:13:29.800 about my crazy father, and I wonder sometimes if he 1435 01:13:29.920 --> 01:13:32.359 had some weird he must have had some weird CIA 1436 01:13:32.399 --> 01:13:35.600 connections or MK ultra connections. But he was good friends 1437 01:13:35.640 --> 01:13:37.760 with one of the beach boys. I don't remember which one, 1438 01:13:37.880 --> 01:13:41.199 the bad one, whichever the bad one was, because I 1439 01:13:41.359 --> 01:13:44.520 know that he did Heroin with him. Uh and my 1440 01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:46.880 my father was a crazy heroin addict. 1441 01:13:47.279 --> 01:13:50.119 But also uh so he was living in Los Angeles 1442 01:13:50.119 --> 01:13:50.880 in the late sixties. 1443 01:13:51.319 --> 01:13:55.199 M hm, well yes, yeah, so I think most of 1444 01:13:55.199 --> 01:14:00.520 the time he lived near lom Poke, but he Santa Barbara, yeah, 1445 01:14:00.640 --> 01:14:04.279 that area, but he went everyone everywhere from the Bay area, 1446 01:14:04.399 --> 01:14:06.600 so like San Francisco, because they know he knew Osley. 1447 01:14:07.119 --> 01:14:07.199 Uh. 1448 01:14:07.520 --> 01:14:10.479 He was getting acid from like straight from the source, 1449 01:14:10.520 --> 01:14:12.199 and then he was taking it back to seventh. 1450 01:14:12.399 --> 01:14:16.319 Right there, right, yeah, exactly LSD. 1451 01:14:17.239 --> 01:14:19.159 I know my mom met him. I know my mom 1452 01:14:19.279 --> 01:14:22.119 met uh Charles Manson as well. We talked a little 1453 01:14:22.119 --> 01:14:24.920 bit about that earlier. That Charles Manson was a friend 1454 01:14:24.920 --> 01:14:27.479 of my father. My father was his drug dealer. 1455 01:14:28.119 --> 01:14:29.520 Uh and uh that's wild. 1456 01:14:29.600 --> 01:14:32.039 Yeah, there's weird connections all through out there. 1457 01:14:32.119 --> 01:14:39.079 Yeah, they had a little boy he died, and I think, yeah, they. 1458 01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:40.800 All hung out at a place they called the House 1459 01:14:40.840 --> 01:14:42.880 of the Rising Sun. Actually they had a house. 1460 01:14:43.000 --> 01:14:44.319 They really all did. 1461 01:14:44.720 --> 01:14:46.800 And I don't know if that if that's where if 1462 01:14:46.840 --> 01:14:48.560 they named it after the song, or the song was 1463 01:14:48.640 --> 01:14:53.520 named after there, but the animals, I don't remember, dude, 1464 01:14:53.600 --> 01:14:56.520 I don't any of this. I wish my dad was 1465 01:14:56.600 --> 01:14:59.720 so alive. Actually he died in two thousand and seven. 1466 01:15:00.079 --> 01:15:01.159 The animals. 1467 01:15:04.039 --> 01:15:04.880 Interesting stuff. 1468 01:15:05.359 --> 01:15:09.279 Your father passed in two thousand and seven, walked. Yeah, 1469 01:15:09.439 --> 01:15:11.000 so you were, you were you close. 1470 01:15:10.800 --> 01:15:13.960 With the man, as close as you can be with 1471 01:15:14.039 --> 01:15:14.720 a heroin addict. 1472 01:15:14.840 --> 01:15:17.439 He was, you know, he sound like he had some 1473 01:15:17.800 --> 01:15:20.239 some trouble past with him with some drug his drug addictions. 1474 01:15:20.279 --> 01:15:22.880 So yeah, yeah, exactly, you hear from him. 1475 01:15:25.640 --> 01:15:27.399 Yeah, he was. 1476 01:15:27.640 --> 01:15:30.079 He was an interesting guy, you know, he was uh yeah, 1477 01:15:30.119 --> 01:15:33.439 he was a nice guy, generous guy, but also could 1478 01:15:33.520 --> 01:15:37.319 be prone to extreme violence. Like I just remember stories. 1479 01:15:37.800 --> 01:15:40.439 Uh some dude called my mom fat or something in 1480 01:15:40.560 --> 01:15:43.279 the middle of the store and my dad beat him 1481 01:15:43.439 --> 01:15:46.479 half to death with like a blackjack and then they 1482 01:15:46.600 --> 01:15:48.239 had to run out of the store. You know, just 1483 01:15:48.600 --> 01:15:51.920 you know, wild stories like that. But he never well, okay, 1484 01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:53.720 I won't say he never got caught, because he did. 1485 01:15:53.880 --> 01:15:56.840 He was in and out of prison sometimes. Yeah, he 1486 01:15:57.039 --> 01:16:03.119 definitely did some time and interesting stuff. The kidnapped real 1487 01:16:03.239 --> 01:16:06.840 JJ yeah, people have been uh comping about you were 1488 01:16:06.880 --> 01:16:09.560 looking ten years younger and maybe you're of himself. 1489 01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:14.479 Well that's pretty good, the breadless wonder the Uh yeah, no, 1490 01:16:14.560 --> 01:16:16.199 that's that's pretty well. So how do you think your 1491 01:16:16.239 --> 01:16:18.199 father got associated with some of these activities? Was it 1492 01:16:18.520 --> 01:16:19.840 through the drug drug use? 1493 01:16:20.199 --> 01:16:24.600 It had dude, No, he wasn't a biker, dude, he 1494 01:16:24.680 --> 01:16:28.680 was a beanner. He was an interesting guy. Uh, you know, 1495 01:16:30.000 --> 01:16:32.000 I'm trying to think of anything that really could have 1496 01:16:32.039 --> 01:16:34.800 got him connected. I know that when he was in prison, 1497 01:16:35.359 --> 01:16:37.640 they made him the head of the Brown Beret was 1498 01:16:37.720 --> 01:16:40.159 like a prison gang. They put him in charge of 1499 01:16:40.640 --> 01:16:43.439 some things like that he didn't necessarily want to be. 1500 01:16:44.399 --> 01:16:47.159 But yeah, I don't I don't really know actually how 1501 01:16:47.199 --> 01:16:49.159 he really got connected. It must have just been through 1502 01:16:49.239 --> 01:16:54.039 drugs and uh yeah, I don't know enough about him honestly, Like, 1503 01:16:54.119 --> 01:16:56.920 I don't know that side of him. I could try. 1504 01:16:57.039 --> 01:16:58.600 I've been trying to get my mom on the show 1505 01:16:58.680 --> 01:16:59.680 for years because. 1506 01:17:00.760 --> 01:17:05.359 Start asking her. Start in segrogator, tell me what you know, 1507 01:17:05.640 --> 01:17:10.199 give me a name. No, that's that's a while. That's 1508 01:17:10.199 --> 01:17:11.640 a wild tale though. Man. That's yeah. 1509 01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:13.760 I appreciate your sharing that for sure, because I think 1510 01:17:13.800 --> 01:17:15.960 that's an interesting perspective you bring up with that tale 1511 01:17:16.000 --> 01:17:17.800 because a lot one of the things I think it's 1512 01:17:17.880 --> 01:17:20.159 in John. John can probably speak to this from police 1513 01:17:20.199 --> 01:17:23.600 feel free interjected at anytime, John, the point where everyone 1514 01:17:23.640 --> 01:17:25.479 wants to say, like, how did Jorey Burke Wwitz get 1515 01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:29.239 associated with these these prominent doctors and lawyers and you 1516 01:17:29.359 --> 01:17:32.399 know socialites in this cult movement and Yonkers? 1517 01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:34.840 What's It's the drug movements. It's the drug culture. 1518 01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:38.119 You much like your father probably associated with Dennis Wilson. 1519 01:17:38.119 --> 01:17:40.479 They probably were ad a heroin drug. I mean, no 1520 01:17:40.640 --> 01:17:43.479 disrespective your your father, but I me saying like, this 1521 01:17:43.600 --> 01:17:45.640 is how these things happen. You're at a heroin drug 1522 01:17:45.720 --> 01:17:47.199 then you're like, oh, ship, are you a beach boy? 1523 01:17:47.359 --> 01:17:49.039 Like yeah, let's do some fucking everyone together. 1524 01:17:49.640 --> 01:17:56.600 Yeah, I mean more complicated. I don't think that exactly. 1525 01:17:59.359 --> 01:18:01.880 So, I I think it's a lot of it involved 1526 01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:06.079 him going to pick up drugs somewhere or holding drugs 1527 01:18:06.079 --> 01:18:07.720 and then somebody would come to him and they would 1528 01:18:07.720 --> 01:18:09.920 take the drugs. A lot of it revolved around that. 1529 01:18:10.159 --> 01:18:12.720 Yeah, Yeah, I think that's I mean, I think that's 1530 01:18:12.760 --> 01:18:16.039 a lot of how these interactions and you know, associations 1531 01:18:16.119 --> 01:18:16.520 do occur. 1532 01:18:16.960 --> 01:18:18.720 It is the cult scene, it's the drug scene. It's 1533 01:18:18.720 --> 01:18:19.640 a little bit of both. Maybe. 1534 01:18:19.680 --> 01:18:22.239 You know, sometimes I wonder, you know, another infamous tale 1535 01:18:22.239 --> 01:18:25.279 about Berkowitz, Nate, you might you'll you'll appreciate this one, 1536 01:18:25.319 --> 01:18:28.000 at least my thoughts on I think you'll appreciate another 1537 01:18:28.079 --> 01:18:31.800 infamous tale. John is he hung out at Studio fifty four. Correct, 1538 01:18:31.880 --> 01:18:33.640 that's one of the uh I believe. 1539 01:18:34.720 --> 01:18:36.680 Oh yeah, and he of course he went to parties 1540 01:18:36.760 --> 01:18:40.760 at Roy Cohen's place and right the various yachts and 1541 01:18:40.840 --> 01:18:43.880 all sorts of stuff. Yeah, he saw probably more of 1542 01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:45.840 the world that way than he would have been able 1543 01:18:45.920 --> 01:18:46.720 to see otherwise. 1544 01:18:48.960 --> 01:18:51.000 You know, Yeah, for sure, And that's a good point. Yeah, 1545 01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:52.359 for sure. He definitely it was culture. 1546 01:18:52.359 --> 01:18:55.439 He was a cultured man that David Burkowitz with the 1547 01:18:56.560 --> 01:18:58.680 you know, I often I often wonder, you know, and 1548 01:18:58.720 --> 01:19:01.039 I just have some ridiculous the thoughts of my brain 1549 01:19:01.079 --> 01:19:01.399 all here. 1550 01:19:02.159 --> 01:19:03.920 You know. It's you know, David Burke. 1551 01:19:03.760 --> 01:19:07.279 Wits associated with Roy Cone, Donald Trump knew Roy Cone, 1552 01:19:07.560 --> 01:19:10.359 Donald Trump's Studio fifty four, David Burke Wood's the Sudio 1553 01:19:10.439 --> 01:19:13.079 fifty four, Michael Jackson's the Studio fifty four around the 1554 01:19:13.079 --> 01:19:13.520 same time. 1555 01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:16.399 Are Michael Jackson, David Burke Whitz, and Donald Trump. 1556 01:19:16.239 --> 01:19:18.479 Moon walking their way around the dance floor of Studio 1557 01:19:18.520 --> 01:19:21.399 fifty four there in the mid to late seventies. 1558 01:19:21.079 --> 01:19:22.800 Because it seems like they're all hanging out there together. 1559 01:19:22.880 --> 01:19:25.000 Yeah, I think it was probably and Andrew Crispo, the 1560 01:19:25.560 --> 01:19:27.680 crazy there and yeah. 1561 01:19:27.600 --> 01:19:29.920 Yeah, that's the that's the dude that Zeeman edited out 1562 01:19:29.960 --> 01:19:33.119 of the book, The The Digital Version of the Ultimate Evil. 1563 01:19:33.520 --> 01:19:38.319 He said, no more Crisp bo Yes, I mean that's 1564 01:19:38.600 --> 01:19:41.359 it's high society Brooke, which is uh is hob nobbin 1565 01:19:41.439 --> 01:19:42.359 with it. 1566 01:19:42.439 --> 01:19:45.720 Really was, Yeah, I mean he was uh uh. He 1567 01:19:45.880 --> 01:19:48.479 had and I believe accurate recollections and a lot of 1568 01:19:48.560 --> 01:19:51.479 this stuff, just like when rainy Ere he remembered, Oh yeah, 1569 01:19:51.560 --> 01:19:54.159 Jane Mansfield was at one of these sex parties that 1570 01:19:54.199 --> 01:19:57.680 the cult had. I do think these are our accurate recollections, 1571 01:19:59.399 --> 01:20:02.600 because that's what these people get up to in their downtime. 1572 01:20:02.680 --> 01:20:05.199 You know, it's just you know, you go to crazy 1573 01:20:05.279 --> 01:20:09.119 parties and you know you're you're from Hollywood or you're 1574 01:20:09.119 --> 01:20:13.359 a musician, and you meet local people and stuff just happens. 1575 01:20:13.079 --> 01:20:19.520 You know, so yeah, yeah, interesting strange culture of that 1576 01:20:19.600 --> 01:20:22.119 drug culture does seem to make some odd some odd 1577 01:20:22.119 --> 01:20:26.239 bedfellows at times. Yes, yeah, especially within the Satanists kind 1578 01:20:26.279 --> 01:20:27.399 of drug culture network. 1579 01:20:28.119 --> 01:20:29.800 You know, not just New York City. You know, the 1580 01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:34.039 whole The Ultimate Evil popped off in North Dakota as well, 1581 01:20:34.239 --> 01:20:35.680 part of the story storyline there. 1582 01:20:35.760 --> 01:20:38.840 So it's a Frans national pipeline of this kind of 1583 01:20:38.880 --> 01:20:42.720 satanic drug activity. John Carr specifically there and mine not 1584 01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:46.359 in North Dakota. I've been to my not there's an 1585 01:20:46.359 --> 01:20:48.479 Air Force base there, and you know, I was a 1586 01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:51.960 MP in the Air Force for for for many years. 1587 01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:54.079 This is this is probably halfway through my career. So 1588 01:20:54.119 --> 01:20:56.439 maybe around twenty eleven or so, I was up there 1589 01:20:56.479 --> 01:20:58.239 from headquarters. We were opening up a new union on 1590 01:20:58.279 --> 01:21:01.039 the base there. But so you know, I'm I'm in 1591 01:21:01.119 --> 01:21:02.920 an environment where I should feel comfortable in my Air 1592 01:21:02.960 --> 01:21:05.399 Force basement, air Force MP, I should shouldn't find this 1593 01:21:05.479 --> 01:21:07.119 place to be a very peculiar spot. 1594 01:21:07.359 --> 01:21:09.279 I'm like that place as creepy as fuck. 1595 01:21:09.680 --> 01:21:13.159 And you know, oh yeah, and I don't want to 1596 01:21:13.159 --> 01:21:14.760 be there one minute longer than I had to be 1597 01:21:14.800 --> 01:21:16.680 there on like a three day trip. I think I 1598 01:21:16.680 --> 01:21:17.960 got to go back to a second time for like 1599 01:21:17.960 --> 01:21:20.319 an I only say, like a day you know, when 1600 01:21:20.319 --> 01:21:22.399 I was watching I mean, for what it is that 1601 01:21:22.560 --> 01:21:26.119 Son of Sam Sons of Sam documentary on Netflix, you know, 1602 01:21:26.359 --> 01:21:29.119 is an interesting you know perspective to see how they're 1603 01:21:29.119 --> 01:21:31.920 framing this kind of cover up situation is what I 1604 01:21:31.960 --> 01:21:35.920 have to call the processed Church cover upper movement. But 1605 01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:38.680 the you know, there's some interesting details to discern from 1606 01:21:38.680 --> 01:21:40.239 there as well. So I mean, I don't I don't 1607 01:21:40.279 --> 01:21:43.199 really don't tell people to you know, just roll, you know, 1608 01:21:44.319 --> 01:21:46.279 don't just throw it out, you know, you know, without 1609 01:21:47.039 --> 01:21:48.720 you know, checking it out. Yeah, don't don't throw out 1610 01:21:48.760 --> 01:21:52.319 the baby with the bathtub situation, you know. But what more, 1611 01:21:52.520 --> 01:21:55.039 Maury's producer friend that went up there and investigated some 1612 01:21:55.079 --> 01:21:57.319 of Maury's claims there in the Ultimate Evele and verified 1613 01:21:57.399 --> 01:21:59.920 these claims, you know, as he speaks about in the documentary. 1614 01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:00.640 Yeah. 1615 01:22:00.680 --> 01:22:03.359 He I laughed when he talked about how creepy it 1616 01:22:03.439 --> 01:22:06.880 was there. I'm like, do ain't lying creepy town? 1617 01:22:08.119 --> 01:22:10.840 It sounds interesting, you know. I talked to Glenn Geatson 1618 01:22:10.960 --> 01:22:14.880 just briefly a few years ago, the deputy who actually 1619 01:22:14.960 --> 01:22:17.880 pulled John Carr up off the side of the road 1620 01:22:17.960 --> 01:22:19.640 that time, after he was pushed out of the van 1621 01:22:19.760 --> 01:22:22.319 and his money was stolen. And you know, that marked 1622 01:22:22.399 --> 01:22:26.720 the sort of the beginning of John's gradual breakdown, you know, 1623 01:22:26.800 --> 01:22:29.199 the last whatever year and a half of his life, 1624 01:22:29.279 --> 01:22:34.560 two years whatever it was. And he uh, and he 1625 01:22:34.640 --> 01:22:37.239 appeared just briefly in the in the Netflix documentary, but 1626 01:22:37.359 --> 01:22:40.760 he said, you know, the town was just lousy with 1627 01:22:40.880 --> 01:22:43.319 a cult activity. He said, it was all over the place. 1628 01:22:43.399 --> 01:22:47.000 He responded to various calls, you know, across town and 1629 01:22:47.119 --> 01:22:50.000 that it you know, there was always something like that 1630 01:22:50.119 --> 01:22:51.439 going on somewhere, he said. 1631 01:22:51.840 --> 01:22:54.760 So, yeah, yeah, I mean I was stationed a very 1632 01:22:54.800 --> 01:22:58.239 similar town in Montana, Great Balls, Montana and quite as creepy, 1633 01:22:58.279 --> 01:23:01.159 but still kind of creepy. And looking back, I think 1634 01:23:01.359 --> 01:23:03.239 I see a very similar environment, you know, that was 1635 01:23:03.399 --> 01:23:05.840 that was a very young man at the time. I 1636 01:23:05.960 --> 01:23:08.039 was drinking every day, I was off so off work, 1637 01:23:08.039 --> 01:23:09.520 so I really wasn't paying attention to these kind of 1638 01:23:09.560 --> 01:23:10.319 details back then. 1639 01:23:10.720 --> 01:23:11.840 But I didn't counter. 1640 01:23:12.279 --> 01:23:14.439 While I was living there, I did come face to 1641 01:23:14.520 --> 01:23:19.199 face with a cannibalistic child, you know, diddling child murderer 1642 01:23:20.399 --> 01:23:24.720 who apparently was serving up, you know, human human burgers 1643 01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:27.319 there at the local party's fellow the name of Nathaniel 1644 01:23:27.359 --> 01:23:29.359 Barr Jonah. He was arrested and later murdered in a 1645 01:23:29.439 --> 01:23:32.720 Montana prison. But he was clearly part of a satanic 1646 01:23:32.960 --> 01:23:36.560 pedophilic cult network while I was living there in Great Falls. So, 1647 01:23:36.640 --> 01:23:39.000 I mean, again, very similar environment to mine. Not the 1648 01:23:39.199 --> 01:23:41.479 United States Air Force is basically the reason. But why 1649 01:23:41.520 --> 01:23:44.640 both of these cities exist, I weren't for the air force, 1650 01:23:44.720 --> 01:23:49.479 bass that is the economy, So very strange kind of 1651 01:23:49.560 --> 01:23:51.479 correlations there between the two places. But yeah, might not 1652 01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:53.840 super creepy. So you got to talk to the sheriff 1653 01:23:53.840 --> 01:23:55.880 phone that one of the deputies that investigated him. 1654 01:23:55.880 --> 01:23:58.239 Oh yeah, yeah, And he was a very nice man, 1655 01:23:58.479 --> 01:24:01.520 very humble, you know, willing to talk about it just 1656 01:24:01.680 --> 01:24:06.279 you know, straight away. And uh he he had he 1657 01:24:06.399 --> 01:24:11.000 said that that there was consistent cult activity in and 1658 01:24:11.079 --> 01:24:12.239 around mind not at the time. 1659 01:24:12.359 --> 01:24:12.720 And and. 1660 01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:18.840 Yeah, I differ from what you read in in Maury's book, 1661 01:24:18.880 --> 01:24:21.279 it's there. There definitely was something going on out there. 1662 01:24:21.479 --> 01:24:24.760 I've always been curious exactly how the relationship was formed 1663 01:24:24.840 --> 01:24:28.319 between the North Dakota Cult and the Yonkers cult. 1664 01:24:28.720 --> 01:24:30.960 It may have been that's a great question. I've wandered 1665 01:24:31.000 --> 01:24:34.560 the same. Yeah, yeah, no, I go ahead, interrupted her. 1666 01:24:34.840 --> 01:24:36.279 I just I know it's one of the things that 1667 01:24:36.279 --> 01:24:39.000 I've long wondered, Like, yeah, again, I asked some ideas, 1668 01:24:39.039 --> 01:24:41.039 but I would like to hear to hear your thoughts. 1669 01:24:41.479 --> 01:24:43.960 I would I would just assume that logically it had 1670 01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:46.439 something to do with John Carr's drug connections, you know, 1671 01:24:46.640 --> 01:24:49.199 but it may have even gone back further than that. 1672 01:24:50.159 --> 01:24:52.960 But I'd love to see somebody research that subject because 1673 01:24:53.000 --> 01:24:55.800 it's it's it's right for research. A lot of work 1674 01:24:55.800 --> 01:24:59.039 could be done on that, establishing the connection between Mine 1675 01:24:59.079 --> 01:24:59.760 Not and Yonkers. 1676 01:25:00.760 --> 01:25:03.479 Yeah, and I'm not suggesting you write a subsequent book 1677 01:25:03.479 --> 01:25:05.119 to to to your son of sam that, but by 1678 01:25:05.159 --> 01:25:06.720 all means, it sounds like you might be the perfect 1679 01:25:06.760 --> 01:25:09.039 man for the mission. I think there would be there 1680 01:25:09.039 --> 01:25:11.000 would be an addict it would be an adequate study. 1681 01:25:11.119 --> 01:25:14.359 Is the submerged history of the mine Not North's Scota Coult. 1682 01:25:14.520 --> 01:25:15.199 Oh yeah, yeah. 1683 01:25:15.279 --> 01:25:17.880 If I ever run across any information, I'd love to 1684 01:25:17.960 --> 01:25:20.920 get into it, because this is uh. I live for 1685 01:25:21.079 --> 01:25:25.039 this essentially now, It's central to everything I do. I'm 1686 01:25:25.399 --> 01:25:27.600 I am working on another book and that may figure 1687 01:25:27.640 --> 01:25:29.199 into it, you know, at some point if I can 1688 01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:32.079 just kind of get my foot into the into the 1689 01:25:32.159 --> 01:25:35.079 research door there. But uh, but I am working on 1690 01:25:35.199 --> 01:25:37.960 something else and hopefully it's uh, i'll at least have 1691 01:25:38.159 --> 01:25:41.159 a first draft ready in another four months or so. 1692 01:25:41.680 --> 01:25:42.439 I'm shooting four. 1693 01:25:44.159 --> 01:25:46.720 You give us a little sneak peak about what second? 1694 01:25:47.800 --> 01:25:49.560 Oh sure, yeah, it Nate. 1695 01:25:50.000 --> 01:25:52.199 It's just more of the same, just just in greater 1696 01:25:52.319 --> 01:25:54.920 detail because people have asked me, well, what about this 1697 01:25:55.399 --> 01:25:58.239 person or this event or whatever. So I'm just trying 1698 01:25:58.279 --> 01:26:00.319 to cram it all in there and it'll at least 1699 01:26:00.359 --> 01:26:02.960 be like a couple of hundred pages and maybe even 1700 01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:07.159 more than that. So you know, the research is ongoing, 1701 01:26:07.239 --> 01:26:08.840 so I'm just going to keep adding to it as 1702 01:26:09.000 --> 01:26:11.960 as I go. And it looks like it's going to 1703 01:26:12.000 --> 01:26:14.319 turn into a pretty big book before it's finished. So 1704 01:26:15.359 --> 01:26:18.119 I'll just bear with me because I'm I'm a really 1705 01:26:18.199 --> 01:26:21.600 slow workers, but I'm getting there. 1706 01:26:22.159 --> 01:26:24.279 Hey, no worries, John, You're welcome back anytime to discuss 1707 01:26:24.399 --> 01:26:26.520 your future book as well, or more of these discussions. 1708 01:26:27.239 --> 01:26:27.760 I don't want to. 1709 01:26:28.079 --> 01:26:29.640 I appreciate your time tonight. I want to keep it 1710 01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:31.920 too long here and I'll definitely give you both, you gents, 1711 01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:34.640 some closing thoughts after we get things. 1712 01:26:34.479 --> 01:26:36.119 Wrapped up here about an hour and a half. 1713 01:26:36.239 --> 01:26:37.880 But I just wanted to share with you my thoughts 1714 01:26:37.960 --> 01:26:41.560 on mine not North Dakota, and regarding the submerged history 1715 01:26:41.600 --> 01:26:44.399 and how it may figure into the overall narrative. So 1716 01:26:45.079 --> 01:26:46.880 the city is known as the Magic City, so it 1717 01:26:46.920 --> 01:26:51.000 almost has some some occult, you know, connotations to its name. 1718 01:26:51.119 --> 01:26:55.239 It was founded by Stephen myn know or might not. 1719 01:26:55.800 --> 01:26:59.119 It's one of their prominent Brahmin you know, Brahmin class 1720 01:26:59.159 --> 01:27:01.840 of you know, balls than the Boston blue blood families, 1721 01:27:02.880 --> 01:27:05.680 one of them there out of Brookline, a wealthy suburb. 1722 01:27:06.800 --> 01:27:10.560 They're very interrelated and intermarried with the Weld family. In fact, 1723 01:27:11.119 --> 01:27:14.560 Tuesday Weld, you famember with the actress Tuesday Well. Is 1724 01:27:14.560 --> 01:27:16.159 that a name either of you gents have ever heard 1725 01:27:16.199 --> 01:27:16.560 of before? 1726 01:27:16.600 --> 01:27:16.720 Oh? 1727 01:27:16.800 --> 01:27:21.920 Yeah, So what you know, as far as you're understanding, John, 1728 01:27:22.039 --> 01:27:24.279 is you know, do you understand she's a she's deeply 1729 01:27:24.640 --> 01:27:28.119 ingrained in the occult activities of Hollywood, And you. 1730 01:27:28.159 --> 01:27:29.840 Know, I honestly didn't know that about her. But that 1731 01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:33.079 gives me something else to research tomorrow, because oh, Okay, 1732 01:27:33.359 --> 01:27:35.079 I'm on top of this all the time, so that 1733 01:27:35.239 --> 01:27:37.560 that's a whole new area for me. But I look 1734 01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:38.800 forward to finding out about it. 1735 01:27:39.640 --> 01:27:42.960 So Tuesday Weld we talked about Jane Mansfield and being 1736 01:27:43.000 --> 01:27:47.159 president of Ltremer Park Rituals, so she was Anton LeVay 1737 01:27:47.239 --> 01:27:50.680 dedicated his Satanic Bible to one of the individuals there 1738 01:27:50.840 --> 01:27:52.880 was Jane Mansfield, who was a member of the Church 1739 01:27:52.920 --> 01:27:58.079 of Satan. Then another individual in that same dedication was 1740 01:27:58.159 --> 01:28:01.000 Tuesday World, and then I teen seventy two. 1741 01:28:00.960 --> 01:28:05.079 Book Modern Day Witchcraft. 1742 01:28:05.239 --> 01:28:07.680 Maybe I can send you the link later, John and 1743 01:28:07.960 --> 01:28:09.920 put it in the show notes the name of the 1744 01:28:09.960 --> 01:28:13.000 books Escaping Me. But Anton LeVay's interviewed in this obscure 1745 01:28:13.039 --> 01:28:15.359 book in the seventies and he says the reason why 1746 01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:17.960 he dedicated it to Tuesday Weld is because she's part 1747 01:28:17.960 --> 01:28:20.880 of the Rituals, so implying that she's deeply involved in 1748 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:25.000 occult activity. Other individuals with later pegers being this quote 1749 01:28:25.039 --> 01:28:29.520 unquote Illuminati hypriesis folks like Adam go Rightly, an author 1750 01:28:29.560 --> 01:28:33.880 who did in extensive coverage of the Manson family. In fact, 1751 01:28:33.920 --> 01:28:36.880 I highly recommend his book The Shadow over Santa Susana, 1752 01:28:38.159 --> 01:28:40.680 which he kind of picked up a lot of I 1753 01:28:40.680 --> 01:28:41.680 don't know if he knew I don't know if he 1754 01:28:41.720 --> 01:28:43.359 ever met ed Sanders. He definitely picked up a lot 1755 01:28:43.399 --> 01:28:46.560 of the Sanders narrative from the family and ran with 1756 01:28:46.640 --> 01:28:48.479 some of those, you know, evolution of some of those 1757 01:28:48.479 --> 01:28:49.399 ideas and concepts. 1758 01:28:49.680 --> 01:28:50.920 Great book, great analysis. 1759 01:28:51.199 --> 01:28:52.720 He would later write a book about you know, write 1760 01:28:52.760 --> 01:28:55.760 some blogs about Tuesday Weld and some magazine articles. I 1761 01:28:55.840 --> 01:28:59.840 believe anyhow, she seems very ingrained within this cult rich 1762 01:29:00.239 --> 01:29:03.720 network and whatnot. She's allegedly deeply tied to the whole 1763 01:29:03.760 --> 01:29:08.039 Manson situation. But her great grandfather was Stephen my not 1764 01:29:08.239 --> 01:29:10.880 Wild who would have been second cousins, I believe, with 1765 01:29:11.000 --> 01:29:14.439 the fella who who started Mine, not North Dakota. So 1766 01:29:14.960 --> 01:29:17.000 I'm just saying, well, amongst these kind of up right, 1767 01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:22.079 we talked about the quote unquote elite society of Westchester County. Well, 1768 01:29:22.159 --> 01:29:24.000 if we want to talk about other elite societies the 1769 01:29:24.039 --> 01:29:27.680 Westchester County of Boston, as these Boston Brahmins, the quote 1770 01:29:27.720 --> 01:29:31.720 unquote blue bloods, these Brookline families, like the Welds, like 1771 01:29:31.840 --> 01:29:33.640 the mine Nots, and here we go. Here we have 1772 01:29:33.880 --> 01:29:37.399 an intersection of the world. Family who has a lengthy 1773 01:29:37.520 --> 01:29:40.680 history dating back to the Old World. They claim to 1774 01:29:40.760 --> 01:29:44.159 be descendants from the ancient kings of Tara from from Ireland, 1775 01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:48.279 so they have a long occult history. You know, numerous 1776 01:29:48.439 --> 01:29:53.039 publications citing this over the years. There's another So you 1777 01:29:53.119 --> 01:29:56.359 have this family who again his cousins with the guy 1778 01:29:56.399 --> 01:29:58.560 who founded mine, not North Dakota. I don't think these 1779 01:29:58.560 --> 01:29:59.720 subjects are that far off. 1780 01:30:01.439 --> 01:30:04.399 No, no, And there seems to be a similar pattern, 1781 01:30:04.520 --> 01:30:07.359 like you said, lots of places with I think, well, 1782 01:30:07.399 --> 01:30:10.439 like in Yonkers. Arguably the cult activity goes all the 1783 01:30:10.479 --> 01:30:16.680 way back to the time of Jeez, what's his name? 1784 01:30:17.680 --> 01:30:20.000 His name completely escapes me now, the guy who originally 1785 01:30:20.039 --> 01:30:25.000 lived on the ground Parkore but Tilda Tilden, Yeah, the 1786 01:30:25.560 --> 01:30:27.439 the failed presidential candidate. 1787 01:30:27.520 --> 01:30:30.800 Yeah he yeah, well he technically won. Technically he won. 1788 01:30:30.840 --> 01:30:32.880 It was the Great Compromise of eighteen seventy seven. 1789 01:30:32.960 --> 01:30:36.399 But yeah, yeah, I just completely blanked on his name there. 1790 01:30:36.439 --> 01:30:39.239 But yeah, I would argue that that even in his day, 1791 01:30:39.319 --> 01:30:42.239 there there were some odd things going on. I've run 1792 01:30:42.279 --> 01:30:46.520 across one or two vague newspaper headlines that made it 1793 01:30:46.640 --> 01:30:50.000 sound like some odd things were happening in the vicinity 1794 01:30:50.039 --> 01:30:50.800 of his property. 1795 01:30:50.960 --> 01:30:53.199 But but yeah, a good point. 1796 01:30:53.520 --> 01:30:55.720 That's a good point in perhaps grasps for future conversation, 1797 01:30:55.800 --> 01:30:58.399 because one thing I'm deeply interested in is the mounds, 1798 01:30:58.439 --> 01:31:02.239 these ancient architectural victual sites of America, and that property 1799 01:31:02.479 --> 01:31:05.039 as a mound site property. So that's a good point 1800 01:31:05.039 --> 01:31:07.640 you bring up, John, we talk about the nineteen twenties, 1801 01:31:07.720 --> 01:31:08.760 this shit goes back even further. 1802 01:31:08.840 --> 01:31:14.079 It seems like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no till that 1803 01:31:14.159 --> 01:31:15.600 Tilda's Till is an interesting character. 1804 01:31:15.720 --> 01:31:18.399 Yeah for sure, Yeah, yeah, I want to I want 1805 01:31:18.439 --> 01:31:22.840 to read more about him. It's somewhere I have bookmarked 1806 01:31:22.960 --> 01:31:27.720 or screenshoted a couple of those headlines that I was 1807 01:31:27.760 --> 01:31:30.399 referring to just a minute ago. But there were there 1808 01:31:30.399 --> 01:31:34.479 were things that they were just odd enough that you think, 1809 01:31:35.600 --> 01:31:38.079 you know, all the way back then, something is is 1810 01:31:38.199 --> 01:31:42.960 already happening on this property that's not wholesome. 1811 01:31:42.720 --> 01:31:47.479 You know it, right? Yeah, it got some nefarious ship. 1812 01:31:47.520 --> 01:31:49.039 You got some nefarious ship popping off there. 1813 01:31:49.880 --> 01:31:55.199 Yeah, and again Antremyer deeply politically politically connected. His I'm 1814 01:31:55.239 --> 01:31:59.439 not andre My Tilden. His uh, his mentor was Martin 1815 01:31:59.479 --> 01:32:02.079 van Buren. President Martin van Buren. He was part of 1816 01:32:02.119 --> 01:32:06.199 the Tammany Hall network and his father, Tilden's father was 1817 01:32:06.239 --> 01:32:08.720 a he's a carpet bagger. They were, they were involved 1818 01:32:08.720 --> 01:32:11.119 in financing the UH where they were involved in the 1819 01:32:11.159 --> 01:32:15.199 Confederate operations. Ant Myer believe his father was involved in 1820 01:32:15.279 --> 01:32:18.039 financing the Confederacy. So a lot of these weird UH 1821 01:32:18.199 --> 01:32:22.840 Southern influences there than that Westchester TerraMar Park tilled in 1822 01:32:22.880 --> 01:32:23.880 the state situation. 1823 01:32:24.760 --> 01:32:27.199 Well, you know, and I'll just this part I'll make 1824 01:32:27.279 --> 01:32:29.600 really brief. But in the town where I grew up 1825 01:32:29.640 --> 01:32:34.560 in northwest Alabama, there was a group of occultists, and 1826 01:32:34.680 --> 01:32:36.840 I never knew exactly how serious they were because I 1827 01:32:36.920 --> 01:32:41.239 never interacted with him. But they met on the grounds 1828 01:32:41.319 --> 01:32:45.760 of an old, burned out plantation home out in the country. 1829 01:32:46.760 --> 01:32:49.399 The home itself had burned down, but these brick columns 1830 01:32:49.479 --> 01:32:54.439 all around the the porch had survived, and they met 1831 01:32:54.560 --> 01:32:56.920 and did rituals every Friday night. In fact, I was 1832 01:32:56.960 --> 01:33:00.760 invited at one point by years younger than me, But 1833 01:33:00.920 --> 01:33:04.720 this stuff was by when this happened, I was about 1834 01:33:04.800 --> 01:33:07.600 sixteen the first time I heard about it. But she 1835 01:33:07.720 --> 01:33:10.520 said that they used copies of an necronomicon and that 1836 01:33:10.600 --> 01:33:14.079 they would try to conjure demons from this. By the 1837 01:33:14.159 --> 01:33:16.840 mid nineties, they were hanging from the trees out there, 1838 01:33:17.000 --> 01:33:20.520 these little they were like mobiles that you hang over 1839 01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:23.680 a baby's crib, but they had they were made out 1840 01:33:23.720 --> 01:33:25.680 of like pieces of stained glass, and they had a 1841 01:33:25.800 --> 01:33:28.840 cult symbols etched into them, and they were hanging from 1842 01:33:28.880 --> 01:33:32.399 the trees out in the country. And a newspaper photographer 1843 01:33:32.399 --> 01:33:34.399 actually went out there and photographed a couple of them. 1844 01:33:34.479 --> 01:33:37.600 And so I had something even locally like this going on, 1845 01:33:37.720 --> 01:33:39.399 and I knew at least a couple of people who 1846 01:33:39.439 --> 01:33:42.520 were involved to different extents. The girl who invited me 1847 01:33:42.640 --> 01:33:49.119 was sort of a casual participant. There was a guy, yea, 1848 01:33:49.840 --> 01:33:52.640 and the guy was an acid head. He was really 1849 01:33:52.800 --> 01:33:56.079 seriously into it, and he gradually started to have sort 1850 01:33:56.079 --> 01:33:58.079 of a John Carr type breakdown. 1851 01:33:59.760 --> 01:34:01.000 So, yeah, interesting. 1852 01:34:01.680 --> 01:34:03.359 It has taken root in a lot of places. 1853 01:34:05.239 --> 01:34:07.720 Yeah, that's uh, yeah, that's fascinating. 1854 01:34:07.720 --> 01:34:12.039 I actually I encountered a homicidal vampire Colton, Rural, Kentucky 1855 01:34:12.359 --> 01:34:15.640 when I was seventeen, So this stuff does it. It's 1856 01:34:15.640 --> 01:34:17.520 spread long, long and far, even in the Bible Belt 1857 01:34:17.560 --> 01:34:20.239 states like Alabama and uh Murray, Kentucky. 1858 01:34:20.720 --> 01:34:24.560 Yes, absolutely, Hey, Kentucky is it's it's pretty some of 1859 01:34:24.640 --> 01:34:28.239 the remote areas they're pretty creepy. Arkansas to Arkansas is 1860 01:34:28.239 --> 01:34:28.760 another place. 1861 01:34:29.000 --> 01:34:29.399 Arkansas. 1862 01:34:29.560 --> 01:34:32.439 Yeah, you got the West Memphis three situation there. That 1863 01:34:32.520 --> 01:34:34.920 was a good good example that that that, you know, 1864 01:34:35.479 --> 01:34:38.680 some some crowley ism going on there in Arkansas. Huh yeah, 1865 01:34:40.159 --> 01:34:41.560 some eight year old boys. I think that was his 1866 01:34:41.640 --> 01:34:44.560 favorite croleys for magical rituals and whatnot. 1867 01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:45.239 Yeah. 1868 01:34:45.640 --> 01:34:45.840 Yeah. 1869 01:34:45.920 --> 01:34:50.159 And I think people still, you know, they don't realize 1870 01:34:50.199 --> 01:34:55.840 how perverse this stuff actually was. Anybody who doubts that Crowley, 1871 01:34:55.880 --> 01:34:58.199 I mean, if they think he was just this harmless 1872 01:34:58.279 --> 01:35:01.159 crank or eccentric or whatever, they should read about him 1873 01:35:01.159 --> 01:35:04.560 to see just how disgusting he and his practices really were. 1874 01:35:04.840 --> 01:35:05.039 You know. 1875 01:35:05.439 --> 01:35:07.640 Yeah, no, no limits to the debauchery, that's for sure. 1876 01:35:08.079 --> 01:35:15.000 No especially sorry man, No, I didn't go ahead, knock. 1877 01:35:16.640 --> 01:35:19.199 John Jonathan do anymore closing closing thoughts for us before 1878 01:35:19.199 --> 01:35:21.239 we letuh nate and this with some closing thoughts. 1879 01:35:22.079 --> 01:35:23.880 Oh well, I was just going to bring up something real. 1880 01:35:24.319 --> 01:35:27.600 I'm sorry to touch on so many different nicles of this. 1881 01:35:27.760 --> 01:35:30.800 It's it's a wide ranging case. But I uh, the 1882 01:35:30.880 --> 01:35:33.000 one thing I think is interesting that I haven't discussed 1883 01:35:33.079 --> 01:35:36.560 very much publicly, although I do devote about a chapter 1884 01:35:36.760 --> 01:35:39.000 it's worth of stuff to it in in the book 1885 01:35:39.039 --> 01:35:45.760 towards the end is the appearance of numerous references to 1886 01:35:45.880 --> 01:35:49.680 the to the Yonkers case in the writing of Peter Stroud, 1887 01:35:49.760 --> 01:35:52.600 the late horror novelist. In fact, I'm rereading one of 1888 01:35:52.680 --> 01:35:58.359 Straub's books right now, and he wrote, uh, CO wrote 1889 01:35:58.359 --> 01:36:00.560 a couple of books with Stephen King, and that's primarily 1890 01:36:00.640 --> 01:36:01.520 what he's known for now. 1891 01:36:03.800 --> 01:36:05.199 It's not a good cred to have these days. I 1892 01:36:05.199 --> 01:36:06.359 don't think that's yeah. 1893 01:36:06.239 --> 01:36:08.359 It's it's really there's been a lot of crap from 1894 01:36:08.399 --> 01:36:11.720 him about the past three years. I just prefer the 1895 01:36:11.800 --> 01:36:16.399 old stuff. But yes, Stroud was Stroud Broke like really intelligent, 1896 01:36:16.720 --> 01:36:20.119 very like overtly literate horror, you know, so that sort 1897 01:36:20.119 --> 01:36:21.800 of fell out of favor after a while. But he 1898 01:36:22.600 --> 01:36:28.399 he wrote a yeah, yeah, he was more. Yeah, but 1899 01:36:28.560 --> 01:36:31.159 he he wrote a novel in nineteen seventy nine called 1900 01:36:31.199 --> 01:36:34.920 ghost Story. It was always one of my favorite books, 1901 01:36:35.920 --> 01:36:37.960 and I would reread it every Halloween or you know, 1902 01:36:38.039 --> 01:36:41.199 sometime around there. But in nineteen ninety six, after I 1903 01:36:41.279 --> 01:36:44.000 had read Morey's book for the first time, I thought, geez, 1904 01:36:44.079 --> 01:36:48.439 a lot of this sounds very similar to some of 1905 01:36:48.520 --> 01:36:52.880 the allegedly fictional details and Ghost Story. So finally, what 1906 01:36:53.239 --> 01:36:55.560 about four years ago? Is just taking a piece of 1907 01:36:55.640 --> 01:36:59.039 paper write down everything I could find in The Ultimate 1908 01:36:59.079 --> 01:37:03.960 Evil that seemed to have a quote unquote fictional correspondence 1909 01:37:04.279 --> 01:37:07.920 in Ghost Story. And there were at least three dozen 1910 01:37:08.079 --> 01:37:11.720 references to the cult, specifically to the Yunker's cult and 1911 01:37:11.840 --> 01:37:14.560 its activities, just in the text of that one book. 1912 01:37:15.119 --> 01:37:21.560 Other yeah, other details appear in other novels, but that's 1913 01:37:21.640 --> 01:37:22.239 the main one. 1914 01:37:23.159 --> 01:37:25.760 That's wild. Yeah, I've never heard of this guy, but 1915 01:37:26.600 --> 01:37:29.319 this is this is You're blowing my mind over here. John. 1916 01:37:29.760 --> 01:37:32.279 It's very it. I mean, I just I jumped out 1917 01:37:32.279 --> 01:37:34.560 of my chair for you. Yeah, I realized that I 1918 01:37:34.720 --> 01:37:37.520 just could not. I mean, I always felt that a 1919 01:37:37.640 --> 01:37:40.720 lot of the novel felt kind of disturbingly real, you know, 1920 01:37:40.800 --> 01:37:43.560 like it was based on real people or events. But 1921 01:37:43.880 --> 01:37:44.720 I just I never knew. 1922 01:37:44.960 --> 01:37:45.520 I just didn't. 1923 01:37:45.640 --> 01:37:47.760 You just don't assume that something like that is the case, 1924 01:37:47.840 --> 01:37:47.960 you know. 1925 01:37:48.800 --> 01:37:53.640 But by nineteen well, it takes place in Melbourne, huh Milbourne. 1926 01:37:53.680 --> 01:37:56.880 Yeah, which is he sets it in upstate New York, 1927 01:37:57.079 --> 01:38:01.399 But it's so once you start to read about it 1928 01:38:01.479 --> 01:38:06.039 that it's just the parallels are just inescapable, you know. 1929 01:38:06.119 --> 01:38:09.680 And he he has made reference at times even to 1930 01:38:10.000 --> 01:38:13.079 the actual names of people involved in this case, even 1931 01:38:13.119 --> 01:38:17.039 to the point of, you know, we had the Maury's 1932 01:38:17.039 --> 01:38:21.159 Flipper list up earlier and we briefly scrolled past the 1933 01:38:21.279 --> 01:38:24.960 name of Ron Spachala, who was involved with the planning 1934 01:38:25.159 --> 01:38:27.600 allegedly of the son of Sam Murders. He was a 1935 01:38:27.680 --> 01:38:30.720 convicted child molester, was dishonorably discharged. 1936 01:38:30.199 --> 01:38:30.760 From the Navy. 1937 01:38:32.880 --> 01:38:35.319 Spachala was in no way, through the midst of any 1938 01:38:35.359 --> 01:38:37.199 of this, a public figure, and his name was not 1939 01:38:37.319 --> 01:38:42.399 publicly known as far as I know. But in nineteen 1940 01:38:42.520 --> 01:38:46.800 ninety Peter Stroud names an incidental character in one of 1941 01:38:46.880 --> 01:38:52.680 his novels, Mystery Officers, Spachala. He's a really uniform. Yeah, 1942 01:38:52.680 --> 01:38:55.279 so it's an oddly specific name to use, you know. 1943 01:38:55.359 --> 01:38:58.279 It's not like Smith or Jones that he turns up 1944 01:38:58.319 --> 01:39:01.119 this name Spachala, which is you find references to the 1945 01:39:01.199 --> 01:39:04.720 case all throughout his work, and it's really fascinating because 1946 01:39:04.920 --> 01:39:12.000 it's Peter Stroub's novels are like a completely separate confirmation 1947 01:39:13.079 --> 01:39:15.399 of Maury's research, because as far as we know, they 1948 01:39:15.520 --> 01:39:17.359 never met, never spoke to each other. They may have, 1949 01:39:17.560 --> 01:39:20.279 but I can't find any indication that they did. So 1950 01:39:20.880 --> 01:39:22.960 the fact that Stroud knew about all this stuff and 1951 01:39:23.119 --> 01:39:26.720 was putting it as fiction in his novels as early 1952 01:39:26.760 --> 01:39:32.199 as the late seventies seems to indicate a whole other 1953 01:39:33.239 --> 01:39:41.079 separate confirmation that the details of Maury's case are accurate. 1954 01:39:42.079 --> 01:39:45.039 So even for the folks that don't enjoy Stroud as 1955 01:39:45.079 --> 01:39:47.720 a storyteller, I would ask him to just sort through 1956 01:39:47.800 --> 01:39:50.399 some of his books and see how many references jump 1957 01:39:50.479 --> 01:39:53.000 off the page at you, because it's really it becomes 1958 01:39:53.000 --> 01:39:57.000 almost alarming after a while, but it's an interesting It's 1959 01:39:57.039 --> 01:39:58.199 interesting to read him either way. 1960 01:39:59.600 --> 01:40:00.319 No, for sure. 1961 01:40:00.359 --> 01:40:02.479 I mean everything you're you're saying to me right now 1962 01:40:02.560 --> 01:40:04.159 is bringing up a lot of different ideas, and so 1963 01:40:04.239 --> 01:40:06.600 I'll definitely share some with the offline. I've tracked some 1964 01:40:06.680 --> 01:40:10.319 processed church activities in around Melbourne, including the epicenter of 1965 01:40:10.359 --> 01:40:13.079 activity with pornography, rock and roll and the mafia. 1966 01:40:13.960 --> 01:40:16.239 Yes, absolutely, I'd love to get more into that. 1967 01:40:17.439 --> 01:40:18.920 No, it's just interesting that would take place, you know, 1968 01:40:18.960 --> 01:40:21.560 because it's not that far. I mean, I mean it's 1969 01:40:21.760 --> 01:40:24.479 essentially just across it's the Hudson River Valley. It's across 1970 01:40:24.520 --> 01:40:25.199 the Hudson River. 1971 01:40:25.760 --> 01:40:28.479 But I mean these two Milbourne and Yonkers are you know, 1972 01:40:28.760 --> 01:40:31.000 geographically in the same region, you know, I mean it's 1973 01:40:31.720 --> 01:40:32.760 sixty six miles. 1974 01:40:34.079 --> 01:40:39.399 Well, he he brings up. It's it's just so it's 1975 01:40:39.439 --> 01:40:42.079 hard to know where to begin. He starts by setting 1976 01:40:42.199 --> 01:40:46.479 the prologue and the epilogue of the novel in Panama City, Florida, 1977 01:40:46.600 --> 01:40:49.119 which is where John Carr was stationed in the late 1978 01:40:49.239 --> 01:40:52.680 sixties and early sex right, and from there the other 1979 01:40:52.800 --> 01:40:55.439 references just pile up, one after another. But it was 1980 01:40:56.279 --> 01:40:59.039 it really grabbed me the first time I realized what 1981 01:40:59.319 --> 01:41:01.479 he was actually talking about it in the story. 1982 01:41:01.600 --> 01:41:03.960 But it's, uh, it makes it fascinating. 1983 01:41:04.760 --> 01:41:07.840 Yeah, that's fascinating literary analysis you've done there, John, I 1984 01:41:08.000 --> 01:41:10.279 certainly will invite you back you want to discuss at 1985 01:41:10.279 --> 01:41:12.840 any time, Well, thank you. I don't want to move 1986 01:41:12.880 --> 01:41:15.119 past this Pachella Fell because I know he's important. I 1987 01:41:15.239 --> 01:41:17.560 know you've already brought a few of those details. I'm 1988 01:41:17.600 --> 01:41:19.479 scrolling through this list again, I don't see him. 1989 01:41:19.520 --> 01:41:23.039 I can't. I'm sure I'm just missing it. Oh yeah, 1990 01:41:23.960 --> 01:41:25.640 can you hit it, because you know, is it a 1991 01:41:25.680 --> 01:41:26.079 weird name? 1992 01:41:26.159 --> 01:41:26.199 Like? 1993 01:41:26.279 --> 01:41:29.319 He was an interesting character in the cold too there, right, yeah, 1994 01:41:29.399 --> 01:41:29.760 he was. 1995 01:41:30.159 --> 01:41:32.239 He was one of the people that burkele Witz recalled 1996 01:41:32.359 --> 01:41:35.319 was at the planning meeting in April of nineteen seventy 1997 01:41:35.399 --> 01:41:37.720 six to plan out right the son of Sam attacks 1998 01:41:37.760 --> 01:41:41.640 and he berka Witz said, and of course mister real 1999 01:41:41.760 --> 01:41:43.760 Estate was there because it was either his house or 2000 01:41:43.840 --> 01:41:46.760 a property that he owned or was associated with. That 2001 01:41:46.920 --> 01:41:48.720 was probably James Donovan. 2002 01:41:49.760 --> 01:41:52.199 Right, So yeah, Helen which. 2003 01:41:52.079 --> 01:41:54.880 Was there, uh Richie Spurs. 2004 01:41:54.920 --> 01:41:56.600 I think it might be his wife, you know, missus 2005 01:41:56.640 --> 01:41:57.039 real Estate. 2006 01:41:57.119 --> 01:41:59.640 But yeah, she could have had more to do with it, 2007 01:42:00.039 --> 01:42:03.439 because we it's it's really hard to nail down details 2008 01:42:03.479 --> 01:42:06.560 on that particular family. They've they've covered their their tracks 2009 01:42:06.600 --> 01:42:07.079 pretty well. 2010 01:42:07.720 --> 01:42:10.000 And the process of pope they're literal pope as what 2011 01:42:10.039 --> 01:42:12.680 they call it in their their incorporation documents is a female. 2012 01:42:12.760 --> 01:42:16.560 So that was for many years, right, Apparently a number 2013 01:42:16.600 --> 01:42:20.359 of power offshoots, uh you know, power control, a little 2014 01:42:20.399 --> 01:42:22.439 wars amongst the different females in that colt. But it 2015 01:42:22.479 --> 01:42:25.920 does seem to be a female led cult, so I 2016 01:42:26.079 --> 01:42:27.680 tend to think Missus real Estate. But yeah, I mean, 2017 01:42:28.720 --> 01:42:31.239 so you're saying that, uh, this Pachella guy was there 2018 01:42:31.239 --> 01:42:33.479 in the mix with the planning at the homes of 2019 01:42:33.520 --> 01:42:35.960 the missus and Missus real mister and Missus real estate. 2020 01:42:35.960 --> 01:42:38.159 Right right there. 2021 01:42:38.239 --> 01:42:40.000 Yeah, so it's not even just it's I mean, it 2022 01:42:40.079 --> 01:42:41.840 is a unique name, but it would be a unique 2023 01:42:41.880 --> 01:42:44.720 character to include if you're making these these this pattern 2024 01:42:44.760 --> 01:42:47.560 of elements from from the Cold into this into this 2025 01:42:47.680 --> 01:42:50.399 science fiction novel, right right, and particularly he would be 2026 01:42:50.479 --> 01:42:52.119 he would we want to focus on. 2027 01:42:52.800 --> 01:42:56.399 Right, Yeah, it's it was long before anybody really knew 2028 01:42:56.439 --> 01:43:00.399 the Namespachala, which has really just emerged for our community 2029 01:43:00.479 --> 01:43:03.119 just in the past few years. So sure it's eerie 2030 01:43:03.239 --> 01:43:05.600 that Stroub seems to have already known about some of 2031 01:43:05.640 --> 01:43:07.920 the stuff, you know, even long before more he wrote 2032 01:43:07.920 --> 01:43:11.880 The Ultimate Evil. Strouds seems to have had a pretty 2033 01:43:12.039 --> 01:43:16.119 detailed source who gave him this information and decided to 2034 01:43:16.199 --> 01:43:17.880 disguise it as fiction, and he did. He did it 2035 01:43:18.000 --> 01:43:20.800 very well. He was a brilliant writer. But yeah, it 2036 01:43:20.920 --> 01:43:23.880 was by no means was all of it fiction. A 2037 01:43:23.960 --> 01:43:26.640 lot of what he was writing about was was thinly 2038 01:43:26.760 --> 01:43:27.479 veiled fact. 2039 01:43:28.239 --> 01:43:30.720 Yeah, this is all very fascinating to me, because, especially 2040 01:43:30.720 --> 01:43:33.479 in this literary analysis providing this is a common tactic 2041 01:43:33.520 --> 01:43:36.359 amongst intelligence operatives. In fact, many of the men that 2042 01:43:36.439 --> 01:43:39.920 founded the the OSS and the CIA both these weren't men. 2043 01:43:40.119 --> 01:43:42.680 These were men of spycraft. These were men of literature. 2044 01:43:43.399 --> 01:43:46.720 These guys are literary literary majors and writers. In fact, 2045 01:43:46.920 --> 01:43:48.840 a number of them, you know, come to mind. One 2046 01:43:48.840 --> 01:43:51.680 of them that comes to mind, not no assessor CIA guy, 2047 01:43:51.720 --> 01:43:55.119 but the guy who wrote the Armies during World War Two. 2048 01:43:55.159 --> 01:43:58.720 He wrote the Army Technical Manual on Psychological Warfare. He'd 2049 01:43:58.800 --> 01:44:01.840 be like a pre Aquino, be like the pre you know, Cleo, 2050 01:44:02.439 --> 01:44:04.880 a queena before him. You have Lansdale, before Lansdale, you 2051 01:44:04.960 --> 01:44:08.199 have this guy. His name's escaped me, but he was 2052 01:44:08.239 --> 01:44:11.079 a science fiction author and he under the name Cordiner Smith. 2053 01:44:11.479 --> 01:44:15.800 Yes, funnily enough, Straub, this is a detail I forgot, 2054 01:44:15.840 --> 01:44:17.720 but I'm so glad you brought that up in this book, 2055 01:44:17.800 --> 01:44:18.439 mister X. 2056 01:44:19.000 --> 01:44:20.159 The villain's name is. 2057 01:44:20.279 --> 01:44:23.680 Cord Winger so Stroud. He was always dropping a lot 2058 01:44:23.720 --> 01:44:26.640 of breadcrumbs and Yeah, yeah. 2059 01:44:26.640 --> 01:44:30.800 I know the guy that's fantastic. Yes, yeah, because Cordner's 2060 01:44:32.319 --> 01:44:32.520 he was. 2061 01:44:32.640 --> 01:44:35.079 He was an army captain. He was Eleron Hubbard's college roommate. 2062 01:44:35.520 --> 01:44:38.640 Much of the details of ELERONN. Hubbard's biography that he 2063 01:44:38.960 --> 01:44:42.239 uh that he claimed he was uh, he actually stole 2064 01:44:42.279 --> 01:44:47.399 from his college roommates, Paul line Barger. Paul line Barger, 2065 01:44:47.720 --> 01:44:49.319 and he would be a guy you would include in 2066 01:44:49.399 --> 01:44:52.479 the characters in a science fiction novel like that by 2067 01:44:52.520 --> 01:44:55.279 calling him Cordiner referencing him that because this guy, like 2068 01:44:55.359 --> 01:44:56.800 I said, he was, you had a queen o and 2069 01:44:56.880 --> 01:45:00.199 psychological warfare before even made like Lansdale before that had 2070 01:45:00.239 --> 01:45:04.159 Paul ain Barger. So, for example, he would later make 2071 01:45:04.239 --> 01:45:07.680 comments about witnessing the events of the jfk assassination, saying 2072 01:45:07.720 --> 01:45:11.520 that he witnessed his tactics being employed at Deeally Plausa 2073 01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:14.079 that day. What he meant by that is, you know, 2074 01:45:14.479 --> 01:45:17.880 didn't really qualify. But obviously you know he actually you know, 2075 01:45:18.079 --> 01:45:19.239 one of his students would have been E. 2076 01:45:19.359 --> 01:45:19.840 Howard Hunt. 2077 01:45:19.880 --> 01:45:21.720 That'd have been somebody that Paul ain Barger would have 2078 01:45:21.760 --> 01:45:24.159 trained in psychological warfare. So you know, there is a 2079 01:45:24.199 --> 01:45:26.760 lot to be said about these characters, but for whatever reason, 2080 01:45:26.800 --> 01:45:29.560 they embed stuff in sci fi novels. Corbyn or Smith. 2081 01:45:29.600 --> 01:45:31.920 Paul Liinbarger wrote a sci fi novel where if you 2082 01:45:32.000 --> 01:45:34.800 take the first letter of each of each line in 2083 01:45:34.840 --> 01:45:37.920 the first page, it says like Oswald never fired a shot. 2084 01:45:38.560 --> 01:45:42.000 You know, he embeds these messages in the science fiction, 2085 01:45:42.479 --> 01:45:44.239 you know. And that's just that's just one example, but 2086 01:45:44.319 --> 01:45:46.520 there's a lot. There's numerous other examples such as that 2087 01:45:47.039 --> 01:45:50.439 from Anthony Burgess to you know, even even folks like 2088 01:45:50.720 --> 01:45:53.479 not necessarily science fiction, but again os s Cia guys 2089 01:45:53.920 --> 01:45:57.920 Lauren Singer who wrote a film called The Parallax Effects 2090 01:45:58.000 --> 01:46:01.840 durring Warren Batty, which involves mind control team of assassins 2091 01:46:01.880 --> 01:46:05.199 going around murdering folks like President of France, and you 2092 01:46:05.239 --> 01:46:09.199 know it's very you know, very spooky, you know actually, 2093 01:46:09.399 --> 01:46:11.640 but again it's to speak writing it. So there is 2094 01:46:11.680 --> 01:46:14.119 this weird confluence of events with these sci fi novels 2095 01:46:14.119 --> 01:46:17.359 that you bring up some interesting some interesting concepts there. John, 2096 01:46:17.439 --> 01:46:19.479 for sure, you have a wheels turning. 2097 01:46:19.880 --> 01:46:23.039 Yeah, I appreciate. I'm glad to pass the information along 2098 01:46:23.119 --> 01:46:25.199 because it's, uh, I know, it's a lot for people 2099 01:46:25.239 --> 01:46:27.079 to wrap their heads around that. They think, well, geez, 2100 01:46:27.079 --> 01:46:29.479 would an author of fiction really be involved with that 2101 01:46:29.600 --> 01:46:32.560 sort of stuff? And uh, I know, Yet the book 2102 01:46:32.680 --> 01:46:35.479 is the book is, mister x. It's just a great 2103 01:46:35.760 --> 01:46:37.680 novel on its own terms, Like even if you don't 2104 01:46:37.840 --> 01:46:40.640 you know, research any of the strangeness behind the story, 2105 01:46:40.720 --> 01:46:42.600 but it's this is it's a really great book. I 2106 01:46:42.840 --> 01:46:46.439 recommend all the Stroud stuff. And he kind of the 2107 01:46:46.560 --> 01:46:49.920 final confirmation for me that he was involved in this 2108 01:46:50.079 --> 01:46:53.680 on some level was the fact that he dedicated ghost 2109 01:46:53.720 --> 01:46:59.279 Story to two psychotherapists who were associated with Tavistock. And 2110 01:47:01.079 --> 01:47:03.439 I mean, that's how specific it gets there on the 2111 01:47:03.520 --> 01:47:08.800 dedication he named his daughter after the female psychotherapist. So 2112 01:47:09.079 --> 01:47:11.920 that's that's pretty Oddes. 2113 01:47:11.760 --> 01:47:13.399 That's too on the nose. That's two on the nose, 2114 01:47:13.479 --> 01:47:15.279 John Was it wasn't Eric crist Was it was it 2115 01:47:15.399 --> 01:47:15.880 Eric Trist? 2116 01:47:16.319 --> 01:47:19.239 No? Eric Eric trist is the guy that I regard 2117 01:47:19.399 --> 01:47:23.439 as the great granddaddy of all this horrible stuff that 2118 01:47:23.720 --> 01:47:28.800 we're talking about. You know his Yeah, he came up 2119 01:47:28.880 --> 01:47:32.359 with the social turbulence theory, which is exactly something that 2120 01:47:32.439 --> 01:47:36.479 the process pedaled later, and he proposed it at first 2121 01:47:36.560 --> 01:47:39.039 in the year that the process started as as compulsions 2122 01:47:39.039 --> 01:47:40.520 analysis in nineteen sixty three. 2123 01:47:40.600 --> 01:47:42.680 So yeah, you're spot on target, John. 2124 01:47:42.720 --> 01:47:44.720 And when he left Tavistak, he went over to UCLA 2125 01:47:44.760 --> 01:47:46.520 and worked with Lewis, Jolly and West for a brief, 2126 01:47:46.800 --> 01:47:50.119 brief stint and again and his son Alan is the president. 2127 01:47:50.159 --> 01:47:51.680 And I believe he's so alive. He's the president of 2128 01:47:51.720 --> 01:47:54.239 the Grateful Dead's. He's a publishing company because he was 2129 01:47:54.279 --> 01:47:55.560 best friends with Jerry Garcia. 2130 01:47:56.000 --> 01:47:56.560 Oh Man. 2131 01:47:58.000 --> 01:47:59.720 Well, like you said, it's so all in the nose, 2132 01:48:00.119 --> 01:48:01.600 it's almost painful, you know. 2133 01:48:01.880 --> 01:48:02.640 It is painful. 2134 01:48:02.640 --> 01:48:05.720 It's very painful when this is dedicating a sci fi novel, 2135 01:48:05.760 --> 01:48:11.319 The Davis Thug. It's crazy now, John, I I I 2136 01:48:11.399 --> 01:48:13.159 appreciate these. I mean you you just dropped some so 2137 01:48:13.239 --> 01:48:16.239 again you got my wheels turning here. I appreciate your 2138 01:48:16.359 --> 01:48:18.680 the time you spend here sharing all this information with 2139 01:48:18.800 --> 01:48:21.399 us tonight. And I definitely, you know, invite you back 2140 01:48:21.439 --> 01:48:25.399 here anytime. And Nate, I apologize for interruption there. I 2141 01:48:25.439 --> 01:48:27.359 know you got some closing thoughts and turn it back 2142 01:48:27.399 --> 01:48:29.680 over here to you to appreciate you joining us here 2143 01:48:29.680 --> 01:48:31.920 tonight too, filling in as a co host here for 2144 01:48:32.039 --> 01:48:36.159 Nick Nick's absence, and uh definitely, uh, welcome back anytime 2145 01:48:36.239 --> 01:48:38.079 for future fridays here in Nate anytime. 2146 01:48:38.640 --> 01:48:41.359 But yeah, what uh what are your what are your thoughts? 2147 01:48:41.399 --> 01:48:43.920 You got some closing some closing, some parting statements and 2148 01:48:43.960 --> 01:48:46.479 thoughts for us here you're on mute. 2149 01:48:49.800 --> 01:48:54.760 Yeah, I would say, I actually don't have any closing thoughts. 2150 01:48:55.279 --> 01:48:57.079 I don't remember what I was gonna say, but it 2151 01:48:57.159 --> 01:49:00.319 was it was something question about David Berkowoit's any ways, 2152 01:49:01.239 --> 01:49:03.479 But thank you. I appreciate you having me on, brother, 2153 01:49:04.399 --> 01:49:06.880 I would I love coming on here. I love Nick, 2154 01:49:06.920 --> 01:49:10.840 So I hope Nick feels better, Jonathan. This was fantastic, man, 2155 01:49:10.880 --> 01:49:14.279 This super interesting. Uh there's so much to dig into here, 2156 01:49:14.520 --> 01:49:17.039 and uh yeah, I mean you are kind of speaking 2157 01:49:17.079 --> 01:49:19.760 my language with all these different connections here, with these 2158 01:49:19.840 --> 01:49:22.960 cults and the CIA, the MK ultra and all like 2159 01:49:23.520 --> 01:49:28.800 honestly like the entire like hippie movement in general, in 2160 01:49:29.000 --> 01:49:31.239 a lot of this music scene, all of this is 2161 01:49:31.319 --> 01:49:35.319 so tied together, and so like, I appreciate you making 2162 01:49:35.399 --> 01:49:39.920 some of these connections and just getting feeding people's interest 2163 01:49:40.000 --> 01:49:42.039 in this because I think there's way more to dig 2164 01:49:42.119 --> 01:49:47.520 into here. And uh yeah, David Burkowitz was a weird basically. 2165 01:49:47.720 --> 01:49:49.520 Like the way I see it at this point is 2166 01:49:49.600 --> 01:49:51.560 David burke Witz was kind of a fall guy. He 2167 01:49:51.760 --> 01:49:54.479 was a scapegoat. Uh, and they just kind of let 2168 01:49:54.600 --> 01:49:58.520 him like eat up all of those different those murders. 2169 01:49:59.119 --> 01:50:02.159 And maybe he was guilty for some of them, and 2170 01:50:02.479 --> 01:50:04.359 it doesn't seem like he was guilty for all of them. 2171 01:50:04.399 --> 01:50:07.720 And I think, uh, it is interesting that they allow 2172 01:50:07.880 --> 01:50:11.479 somebody to kind of get famous he's a famous serial killer. 2173 01:50:11.920 --> 01:50:12.039 Uh. 2174 01:50:12.359 --> 01:50:15.239 And maybe they just a lot of times, you know, 2175 01:50:15.319 --> 01:50:17.359 some of these secret societies and different things like that. 2176 01:50:17.560 --> 01:50:21.439 I think they it's kind of like saying, Kobe, you know, 2177 01:50:21.600 --> 01:50:23.880 before you throw a piece of paper in the trash can. 2178 01:50:24.199 --> 01:50:26.119 I think they like to put their signs and symbols 2179 01:50:26.159 --> 01:50:29.560 on different things, but they quietly, they quietly do it. 2180 01:50:29.720 --> 01:50:33.000 So they so they kind of take credit for things, 2181 01:50:33.039 --> 01:50:35.439 but not really and they let people like David Burkewood's 2182 01:50:35.560 --> 01:50:37.880 kind of eat the time as it would be. 2183 01:50:38.119 --> 01:50:40.079 You know, absolutely, I agree. 2184 01:50:41.520 --> 01:50:43.479 Yeah, that's a good it's an accurate analysis. I agree 2185 01:50:43.520 --> 01:50:43.960 to their name. 2186 01:50:44.800 --> 01:50:47.079 I have I have a party question for you their 2187 01:50:47.159 --> 01:50:50.920 Night in regards to your father's connections with Charles Manson. 2188 01:50:51.239 --> 01:50:53.520 You mentioned he ran around with the you know, since 2189 01:50:53.520 --> 01:50:56.760 he's Mexican fell he ran around his native Mexican crowd 2190 01:50:56.800 --> 01:51:00.520 there in the Los Angeles region. So did he know 2191 01:51:00.680 --> 01:51:02.119 Danny actor Danny Trejo. 2192 01:51:03.239 --> 01:51:06.399 I don't actually know that. That's a great question. I 2193 01:51:06.520 --> 01:51:10.760 wish you did. Charles Manson, I should probably reach out 2194 01:51:10.800 --> 01:51:13.000 to any trio at some point. That would be fun. 2195 01:51:13.000 --> 01:51:14.399 I would love to have on the show. 2196 01:51:15.239 --> 01:51:18.000 Well, they're both Mexican fellows in Los Angeles. Who knew 2197 01:51:18.039 --> 01:51:19.520 Charles Manson? I mean, what are the odds? 2198 01:51:19.560 --> 01:51:21.239 I mean, they're running in the same circles, right, I 2199 01:51:21.279 --> 01:51:28.479 mean maybe, yeah, no doubt. Danny Treo, dude, I appreciate 2200 01:51:28.520 --> 01:51:31.359 you gence time, and I hope it looks like as 2201 01:51:31.439 --> 01:51:32.439 for the chattel Off folks of. 2202 01:51:32.399 --> 01:51:33.960 The interwebs here enjoyed the conversation. 2203 01:51:34.159 --> 01:51:36.840 Like I said, anytime, y'all want to come back, John 2204 01:51:36.880 --> 01:51:38.920 to look forward to this litterary analysis of your sci 2205 01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:41.680 fi work and your future son of sam research. Like 2206 01:51:41.720 --> 01:51:44.119 I said, send you a few notes offline regarding some 2207 01:51:44.159 --> 01:51:46.960 of the stuff we talked about. And yeah, welcome back anytime, Nate, 2208 01:51:48.039 --> 01:51:50.920 Welcome back any time, Sir. I appreciate your time, and uh, 2209 01:51:51.199 --> 01:51:53.399 that's it. We'll call the end of the show here. 2210 01:51:53.960 --> 01:51:55.039 Thanks, look, thanks for having me. 2211 01:51:55.800 --> 01:51:57.640 Sure, well that's it. 2212 01:51:58.399 --> 01:51:59.720 That's the show here, folks. 2213 01:52:00.319 --> 01:52:03.439 So the next time you're right on the town, visit 2214 01:52:03.520 --> 01:52:07.119 in your local watering holes or perhaps just meandering around, 2215 01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:11.960 and you hear the unmistakable sounds of metal clanking and 2216 01:52:12.119 --> 01:52:16.000 you spot signs of a disturbance, but check your six 2217 01:52:16.720 --> 01:52:20.600 look in that garbage can, because you never can tell 2218 01:52:21.399 --> 01:52:23.800 the GCDs may be loose in your town. 2219 01:53:00.920 --> 01:53:05.520 Then you table to atpat in a patting