Speaker 1: Don't you fuck me?
Speaker 2: I fuck me, I fucking harm.
Speaker 3: Howdy folks, your host Double J, host of Operation GCD,
Speaker 3: back here for Friday's. However, my co host Nick will
Speaker 3: not be joining us tonight. In his place, we got.
Speaker 2: Nate, host of Reality is Ours podcast. Nate. Appreciate you joining.
Speaker 4: Us absolutely, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 4: This was a lot of fun the last time I
Speaker 4: was on, and I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 3: Appreciate appreciate you here. Yeah, Nick came down with some
Speaker 3: sort of flu bugs. Hopefully he'll be back next week.
Speaker 3: But yeah, look, I enjoyed our last conversations on here, Nate,
Speaker 3: so definitely looking forward to another. I'm actually just coming
Speaker 3: back from injured reserve myself. I blew out my jaw
Speaker 3: uh a couple of weeks ago, but it's doing a
Speaker 3: lot better now.
Speaker 2: Good man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you got a freshly shaved face too. Didn't you
Speaker 4: have a big beard the last.
Speaker 3: Time I saw it, big beard, long hair, still kept
Speaker 3: the head and then I used to keep my hair
Speaker 3: in bed, just you know, just for the bit the uh. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I had to clean up for uh for some uh
Speaker 3: attend some family business.
Speaker 2: So m.
Speaker 3: Clean cleaned up for some of those situations. But anyhow,
Speaker 3: our guest to tonight, Jonathan Mitchell. Greeting, Sir, I appreciate
Speaker 3: you joining us here for a discussion here on our Friday. You're, uh,
Speaker 3: we're obviously gonna be discussing here some you're the author of, uh,
Speaker 3: the book The Before Son of Sam, the Submerged History
Speaker 3: of a Yonker's Cult.
Speaker 2: Looking forward to discussing.
Speaker 3: Some of that there with you, John, Yes, absolutely, and uh,
Speaker 3: basically yeah, I just wanted to looking forward to having
Speaker 3: a uh kind of a round table discussion on this
Speaker 3: on the same murders. I'm kind of very interested in
Speaker 3: hearing some of your your take in regards to the
Speaker 3: kind of the evolution of activity surrounding the uh you know,
Speaker 3: the Maureitary investigation and subsequent activities you know post that,
Speaker 3: and you know, basically our current state of affairs surrounding
Speaker 3: the topics, because you obviously have a long term you know,
Speaker 3: perspective and viewpoint on the matter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, talking about.
Speaker 3: It any anything else you're gonna talk about by all means,
Speaker 3: you know, you're you got the floor there, John, And
Speaker 3: I said, appreciate you, appreciate you joining us.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you I'm glad to be here. I was
Speaker 1: trying to find a place to start. Usually when I
Speaker 1: do these shows, it's, uh we tend to start out
Speaker 1: with just sort of a sketch for people that are
Speaker 1: unfamiliar with the case. You know, who what was son
Speaker 1: of Sam? You know who was David Berkowitz? Was there
Speaker 1: any evidence that he committed all of the shootings or
Speaker 1: you know, was there you know, conflicting evidence somewhere? So
Speaker 1: I could go over that for folks that are unfamiliar
Speaker 1: with the case.
Speaker 3: Sure well, Nate sounds like he's got a very base
Speaker 3: one understanding, so maybe uh yeah, he would start there.
Speaker 3: That sounds a good idea, Nate, Nate, what's your understanding
Speaker 3: of the Sun of Sand? For so? I, No, Jonathan's
Speaker 3: focused not only on the sunderstand but some of the
Speaker 3: prelude cold activity and the the epicenter of activity there.
Speaker 2: In Yonkers Yonkers of New York.
Speaker 4: Sure, man, I have like a very you know, I
Speaker 4: just have the outline there. The first thing that caught
Speaker 4: my mind was the Berkowitz. The first thing that popped
Speaker 4: in because I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist, and I was
Speaker 4: like jew, uh so.
Speaker 2: Then I didn't know that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so his birth mother and his birth father were
Speaker 4: both Jewish, and I think his adopted family was also Jewish. Uh,
Speaker 4: which is I mean, it doesn't really matter, but that
Speaker 4: was just the first thing that that I was also
Speaker 4: kind of shocked that he was still alive. It was
Speaker 4: kind of I thought I just assumed he was dead,
Speaker 4: and I was.
Speaker 3: Kind of in health. You know, the interviews he don't
Speaker 3: he gives. He seems appears to be in decent health.
Speaker 4: Is he actually given a given out interviews?
Speaker 2: I didn't even know he was.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's been tried to get him on the show
Speaker 4: What are we doing? So, Yeah, he's an interesting character.
Speaker 4: I was trying to see, like if he was born bad,
Speaker 4: Like I was trying to see, like what what snapped
Speaker 4: in him, because he seemed like he grew a pretty
Speaker 4: normal life. He was given up for adoption, right, he
Speaker 4: was adopted by It seemed like his folks were all right.
Speaker 4: His mom, his adopted mother, died when he was a teenager,
Speaker 4: about fourteen. I think that was probably pretty traumatic. Maybe
Speaker 4: his dad was kind of a dick. It kind of
Speaker 4: sounds like a little bit but like nothing that in
Speaker 4: my mind. It was also a very brief window supposedly
Speaker 4: that he was doing the killings. It was like one year,
Speaker 4: it was like July to July. I think it was
Speaker 4: what seventy four or seventy five to seventy six or
Speaker 4: seventy seven.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, very very well.
Speaker 3: It sounds those are some good baselines there, Nate too.
Speaker 3: For John to jump in here, maybe he can fill
Speaker 3: in some of those details.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he it was just that that year long period
Speaker 1: and he you know, he claims that he didn't even
Speaker 1: join the group until nineteen seventy five, so that's still
Speaker 1: a pretty brief window there, although there is some evidence
Speaker 1: that he was at least acquainted with or aware of
Speaker 1: the cult prior to that. And you know, he had
Speaker 1: a friend who also knew the car Brothers, who figure
Speaker 1: heavily in the story, you know, and this friend allegedly
Speaker 1: was still involved in the cult during the Son of
Speaker 1: Sam years. So berkelewitzmy have at least been aware of
Speaker 1: the cult prior to nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 3: Interesting, So, like that's that's a very big turning point
Speaker 3: because his exit from the army, so that you were
Speaker 3: mentioning his kind of his childhood, he seemed to have
Speaker 3: a tumultuous childhood. Sure, but it seems to like whatever
Speaker 3: went on in dude's life went on during his years
Speaker 3: of the army and what you know, kind of his
Speaker 3: transition at least mentally speaking, you know, into adulthood. There
Speaker 3: he went into the army. I believe was for three years.
Speaker 3: Correct me if I'm wrong with John. It was three
Speaker 3: years there from what.
Speaker 2: Two seventy five?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And to be quite honest with you, I've asked
Speaker 3: this question a lot of folks, and I've never gotten
Speaker 3: the answer seeing any documents. I questioned his exit from
Speaker 3: the army, so he alleged it from many stories, at
Speaker 3: least write letters to some.
Speaker 2: Of his friends.
Speaker 3: He apparently wrote, he lit the NCO Club on fire
Speaker 3: over there in Korea at the Army basin Kree he
Speaker 3: was stationed at. If that's true, he would have got
Speaker 3: a dishonorable discharge. And he got a dishonorable discharge. Well,
Speaker 3: he's not getting a.
Speaker 2: Security guard license in the state of New York. He's
Speaker 2: not getting.
Speaker 3: Hired by the Post Office because a dishonorable discharge has
Speaker 3: more weight than a federal felony. Like federal I thought
Speaker 3: these are better stat you want to have that, you
Speaker 3: know better more than a dishonorable discharge.
Speaker 4: I didn't. I couldn't find what he did. I was
Speaker 4: looking briefly, but uh, it just said that he left honorably.
Speaker 4: He had an honorable discharge, which is kind of interesting.
Speaker 4: And there's always that weird like, uh, the folks that
Speaker 4: are in the military that are acting funny, that do
Speaker 4: some dumb shit, they have to kick them out, and
Speaker 4: uh they end up having like uh like federal connections
Speaker 4: and things like that. And I always kind of question,
Speaker 4: especially during that era with serial killers in general, like, uh,
Speaker 4: it almost seemed like most of it was an op
Speaker 4: like most of it was some MK ultra interesting stuff
Speaker 4: which also has cult ties. Uh, some of those satanic
Speaker 4: cult ties. I think a lot of that is a
Speaker 4: deep state MK ultra type of things.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a that's a good point.
Speaker 3: I often wonder what the crossover was between if there
Speaker 3: was ever any interactions between Michael Lokino and Berkowitz at
Speaker 3: his last station there at Fort Knox.
Speaker 2: They seemed to have some overlap in timeframes.
Speaker 3: But so, John, what got you started on this path
Speaker 3: as far as writing your book The Before The Son
Speaker 3: of sam book, The Submerged History of Ancors called, which
Speaker 3: I think is a great you know, a great way
Speaker 3: to put the whole scene to perspective of how there was,
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of existing cold activity, you know,
Speaker 3: prior to prior to this era of the nineteen mid
Speaker 3: nineteen seventies and late nineteen seventies of these murders. But
Speaker 3: what got you, what got you interested in the subject
Speaker 3: in general?
Speaker 1: You know, I just picked up Maury's book. I didn't
Speaker 1: really know much about the case, but I found a
Speaker 1: copy of a used bookstore, and I was immediately fascinated
Speaker 1: with it. You know, even though it's by necessity it
Speaker 1: was missing a lot of the names, and he used
Speaker 1: a lot of aliases, you know, for various players in
Speaker 1: the story. But I you know, I took notes on
Speaker 1: it myself, and I was just really impressed by Maury's
Speaker 1: research and his writing ability and everything. And then about
Speaker 1: two thousand and two, I ran into someone who had
Speaker 1: worked at the Magical Child bookshop in New York, and
Speaker 1: I asked him what his opinion of the case was.
Speaker 1: And he was not a fan of Maury at all,
Speaker 1: yet he said, you know, I read the book and
Speaker 1: I was familiar with Maury's work in the newspapers, you know,
Speaker 1: prior to the to the release of the book, and
Speaker 1: he said, I believe not only was he right that
Speaker 1: there was a cult and that more than one person
Speaker 1: than Berkowitz was involved, but that Maury got the specific
Speaker 1: participants right, meaning the car Brothers and these other books.
Speaker 1: So he said, you know, in spite of the fact
Speaker 1: that he did not care for Maury, he believed that
Speaker 1: Maury's thesis was basically correct. So from there, I just
Speaker 1: I poked around here and there wherever I could, you know.
Speaker 1: I started to do some newspaper research and then got
Speaker 1: into it full time about eight late twenty eighteen early
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3: Okay, well let me yeah, let me interject you real quick,
Speaker 3: because you you, uh, you had some some good details
Speaker 3: there I was unfamiliar with. You met you met somebody
Speaker 3: who worked at the Magical Child bookstore.
Speaker 2: Huh? Was it was it Peter Lavenda?
Speaker 1: No, No, it was another individual. Uh. We we met
Speaker 1: on a Zodiac Killer chat board. Actually, you know, because
Speaker 1: there was such a wide range of people that were
Speaker 1: interested in that too. But he had mentioned his background,
Speaker 1: I thought, well, since he was around for some of
Speaker 1: this as it was happening, I couldn't resist asking him
Speaker 1: about the Ultimate Evils.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was a brief conversation, you know, but it was
Speaker 1: it was as specific, I think, as he cared to be.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting that, you know, I've told people that,
Speaker 1: you know, back twenty twenty five years ago, you could
Speaker 1: have a legitimate discussion about the case, even with people
Speaker 1: who weren't fans of Maury or Morey's work or whatever, right,
Speaker 1: and they wouldn't. They didn't try to dismiss Morey out
Speaker 1: of hand and call them a crackpot and call them
Speaker 1: all these silly names and stuff. The case now is
Speaker 1: that the other team is completely just irrational, and you
Speaker 1: know they don't. They're just inordinately hostile to everybody whose questions.
Speaker 3: Very vitriology with all their messaging, right, everything, all their
Speaker 3: communications seemed very vitriolic to me.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, definitely, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And you probably have a lot more insight of that
Speaker 3: than I do from just kind of watching things, you know,
Speaker 3: un fold, because I believe you you were involved in
Speaker 3: some research teams that is that correct in recent years
Speaker 3: with some some of this vitriolic nature of activities that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was. It was tough, you know, because
Speaker 1: I assumed these people at one individual in particular was
Speaker 1: my friend because we were this was during COVID, so
Speaker 1: a lot of us were home and we had a
Speaker 1: little more time to devote to all this research. So
Speaker 1: we talked to each other nearly every day, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you get you get pretty close to people
Speaker 1: under those circumstances, and you you know, just on the
Speaker 1: basis of the research, you assume that you're all on
Speaker 1: the same page. But things got very weird and I
Speaker 1: figured out very quickly that we were not all on
Speaker 1: the same page, unfortunately. But yeah, yeah, twenty twenty one
Speaker 1: was a weird period there, that first half of that year.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like to put a put a pen on
Speaker 3: that point as far as some of these activities surrounding,
Speaker 3: you know, in this information that's popped off in recent years,
Speaker 3: because I want to go back to this Magical Child situation.
Speaker 3: That's a very fascinating place to me and Nate, are
Speaker 3: you familiar with Have you ever heard of the Magical
Speaker 3: Child bookstore? It was one of these, one of one
Speaker 3: of two only occult bookstores in all of New York City.
Speaker 4: Now I'm not familiar with it at all.
Speaker 2: Actually, have you ever seen the film Ghostbusters?
Speaker 4: Yes, how they.
Speaker 3: Found Yeah, the acroyd Acroid based his accult bookstore off
Speaker 3: of The Magical Child. So this is a the popular
Speaker 3: amongst the cultest of all varieties, you know, ohto folks,
Speaker 3: you know, Satanist folks, Mormon folks, processed church folks, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, all these characters. Peter Lavenda worked there part time,
Speaker 3: apparently according to himself. And again he's an interesting character
Speaker 3: I think relative to the whole burke Wood storyline too,
Speaker 3: because Peter Lavenda went to the same high school and
Speaker 3: ran around the same social social circles, apparently by a mission.
Speaker 2: With with uh with David Burkowitz.
Speaker 3: I actually suspect there's probably more of a I don't know,
Speaker 3: John Johnny may have with thoughts on it, and i't
Speaker 3: want to get too far off on a different tangent.
Speaker 3: I just think there may be more of the storylineup
Speaker 3: as far as Leavenda and his buddy and how maybe
Speaker 3: burke Witz ever got linked up with the cars in
Speaker 3: the first place.
Speaker 1: There's it's always possible that MORENFO is gonna emerge, because
Speaker 1: this case is you know, I've seen things that I
Speaker 1: never thought would happen. I've talked to people that I
Speaker 1: never expected to talk, you know, and things just got
Speaker 1: uh yeah, there's always more information out there.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: The individual I spoke to, you know, he he also
Speaker 1: worked at the shop, and he he loved Herman. I
Speaker 1: think he considered Hermann Slater the owner of a surrogate
Speaker 1: father basically. But you know, Herman would lose his temper
Speaker 1: and he would fire the guy multiple times, and then
Speaker 1: he always hired him back. So he he had a
Speaker 1: genuine affection for for the store and the person that
Speaker 1: owned it. But he also had been active in the
Speaker 1: OTO for a while. And yeah, tell me about that
Speaker 1: was that it was an acquired taste.
Speaker 3: So that's a weird that's a weird statement. It's a
Speaker 3: very weird statement. That's a very weird statement. So Herman
Speaker 3: Slater is an interesting character though, so Nate, the guy
Speaker 3: that then's the random magical child.
Speaker 2: He Uh.
Speaker 3: He would appear on what was it, maybe Maury Povich
Speaker 3: or something opposite, Maury Terry debating these topics of Satanic
Speaker 3: colts and you know, not specifically as understanding, but other
Speaker 3: Satanic the whole Satanic panic movement. You know, you'd have
Speaker 3: folks like Herman Slater here, the owner of this bookstore,
Speaker 3: opposite Mari Terry on the early nineties TV circuit discussing
Speaker 3: these topics. Then later I find out and speaking with
Speaker 3: all this information that Johnny saying has popped off in
Speaker 3: recent years, the release of all these tarot and the
Speaker 3: variations of different Terry files. I'll argue, and I'll go
Speaker 3: back to it here in a moment with you, but
Speaker 3: you know, the release of all these files, and Terry
Speaker 3: had on a list Herman Slater as a member of
Speaker 3: the cult. So you know, he's literally going up apparently
Speaker 3: going on TV note like with full mindset that he's
Speaker 3: debating a dude from the.
Speaker 2: Cult about the cult.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, that's got to be a
Speaker 3: rough environment to go to go, you know, to voluntarily
Speaker 3: put yourself into.
Speaker 1: Yes, I would say so, yeah.
Speaker 3: And that's one of the reasons I have a lot
Speaker 3: of respect for the man in his work. He may
Speaker 3: he may be incorrect in some of his assessments. I'm
Speaker 3: sure he faced a lot of intentional misleading various you.
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, he was to head with these people because
Speaker 1: actuallyrect yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: He Yeah, that's a good it's a good way to
Speaker 3: frame me. That's what I was trying to get out
Speaker 3: there with them, Voluntarily going on these shows knowing Corner's
Speaker 3: own notes, knowing that that this dude that he's debating
Speaker 3: is a member of the cult, that he's a video
Speaker 3: aut right, like, you know, that's the balls right there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and these were very you know, Herman was even
Speaker 1: by the kindest estimation, he was a strange person, and arguably,
Speaker 1: according to some evidence, more than strange, you know, he
Speaker 1: was dangerous.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah, very odd stuff. So twenty eighteen,
Speaker 3: you got you got real heavy into the research, and
Speaker 3: then you said you were working.
Speaker 2: In a research group.
Speaker 3: Come twenty twenty, but you wrote your book was published
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty, Is that correct?
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I met some of the folks that I worked with
Speaker 1: shortly after I published the first version. Then a few
Speaker 1: months later there were there was someditional information that I'd
Speaker 1: found out in a couple of corrections I wanted to make.
Speaker 1: So I've just added some you know, a little bit
Speaker 1: of text to the same book. And uh, but yeah,
Speaker 1: the first version came out, in fact, almost exactly five
Speaker 1: years ago. It was in February twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: So oh good, nice, Yeah, and it put me.
Speaker 1: In contact with various folks, and.
Speaker 3: You know, unfortunately I forgot you connected with the publisher
Speaker 3: of the book, and then you got connected.
Speaker 1: With Yeah, some folks reached out to me, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think, sadly people can not everybody did this, but
Speaker 1: some people misrepresented themselves at the beginning. And yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was working elbow to elbow with them, and unfortunately
Speaker 1: there their objective was different than mine was.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's such an odd environment, isn't it. And so I've
Speaker 3: been following these activities, and to be honest with you,
Speaker 3: I got into the Sun the same case through Charles Manson.
Speaker 3: It's crazy enough that and researching my own heritage. I
Speaker 3: hail from Fairfield County, Connecticut, and specifically the town of Ridgefield,
Speaker 3: just across the border there from Westchester County. Actually, my
Speaker 3: family's home was two and a half miles away from
Speaker 3: the processed church headquarters there. Well, yeah, there in Westchester County.
Speaker 3: Basically the same road. You just you know, you take
Speaker 3: a t intersection. One of one of them you stay
Speaker 3: in the state. The other one goes across the border
Speaker 3: into Connecticut, and we had lived right across the border
Speaker 3: into Connecticut. So I just you know, looking at that
Speaker 3: whole area, there's a lot of weird cold like looking
Speaker 3: at the whole ultimate evil narrative of all the recruitment
Speaker 3: and boy Scout troops and stuff like that in the
Speaker 3: Westchester County area. It seems all that stuff is going
Speaker 3: on in the Fairfield County, you know, in the Connecticut
Speaker 3: region as well. And again you have a lot of
Speaker 3: weird stuff going on and around the town of Ridgefield,
Speaker 3: that whole area just opposite of you know that you know,
Speaker 3: opposite of the that area of Westchester County that seems
Speaker 3: particularly creepy if you ask me, the that nature preserve
Speaker 3: region Hollywood film sets used to They filmed a lot
Speaker 3: of Hollywood movies rightrever than that little little corner of
Speaker 3: the county there in Westchester, right where the right where
Speaker 3: the processed Church setup shop is, you know, just adjacent
Speaker 3: to once Again Film Studios. It seems like everywhere they
Speaker 3: go is from Charles Manson and the Spawn Ranch to
Speaker 3: the you know, the Canal of Utah best Friends Animal
Speaker 3: Society buying out you know, all that Disney Film Studio
Speaker 3: property and well, not just Disney.
Speaker 2: But you know large part of Disney, you know it.
Speaker 3: See where they go, it's film, film studios, you know,
Speaker 3: movie branches if you will.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they do enjoy being in close proximity
Speaker 1: to film and filmmakers. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2: Right. It seems to go hand in hand, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. It does eerily so. And in fact,
Speaker 1: I had to I had to make a little bit
Speaker 1: of a case for that in my book with a
Speaker 1: really low budget film that unfortunately not many people have seen.
Speaker 1: It was just kind of a cheap drive in horror movie,
Speaker 1: but it was. It was called Invasion of the Blood Farmers,
Speaker 1: was shot just about twenty miles north of Yonkers, but
Speaker 1: still in Westchester County, and the everything about the finish
Speaker 1: just like a thinly fictionalized version of the story that
Speaker 1: we're talking about. It's this group of dirt farmers. They're disguised.
Speaker 1: They're disguised as dirt farmers, they're actually druids and they're
Speaker 1: trying to resurrect their queen through taking the blood of
Speaker 1: both human and animal victims. Anybody familiar with the larger
Speaker 1: story that Morey told in The Ultimate Evil is going
Speaker 1: to find a lot of the plot points of that
Speaker 1: movie eer really familiar. It's a terrible movie, but there's
Speaker 1: so much in it that's relevant in relation to this case.
Speaker 1: But it's a strange little movie. But yeah, it was
Speaker 1: filmed in Westchester too, in nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, a lot of strange stuff going on there.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I getting back to the kind of the
Speaker 3: evolution of things from what I was from my perspective.
Speaker 3: So I've been following these things, I don't know, at
Speaker 3: least more specifically conversations relatives specific to the process since
Speaker 3: around twenty twenty, right, Syra twenty.
Speaker 2: I lose y'all, my back, my back, Okay, yeah, you're back.
Speaker 4: I was wondering if it was on my end or.
Speaker 2: If so SIRRAA twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3: The only folks on the interwebs talking about these subjects
Speaker 3: specifically the Process, Church and the Son of Sam, both
Speaker 3: Mary Terry's investigations generally speaking, was that Opperman. I've I've
Speaker 3: just you know, I've been on operating the show before.
Speaker 3: You know, We've communicated various topics. Yeah, he has some
Speaker 3: good assessments. A lot of a lot of these, uh
Speaker 3: are good analysis and a lot of these cold activities
Speaker 3: I think surrounding these topics, and again because again he's
Speaker 3: he's got the evolution of a lot of the you know,
Speaker 3: the discussion, a lot of the you know, you know,
Speaker 3: knowing a lot of the characters involved. Jim Rothstein, He's
Speaker 3: on numerous interviews with him over the year. So these
Speaker 3: are the things I've kind of followed really over the
Speaker 3: I know, I know he's he's a contentious character and
Speaker 3: needs some comments in the Yet I know he's a
Speaker 3: contentious character, but he nonetheless he has a bit of
Speaker 3: a historian in these topics relative to his catalog of
Speaker 3: interviews and again interactions because again, you know, I'm not
Speaker 3: familiar with were you were you part of this this
Speaker 3: infamous Mare Retarry facebook group?
Speaker 2: I mean, these are things I never really were involved with, But.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I never was. I just I'm just not a
Speaker 1: great social media person, So I was really never on
Speaker 1: Facebook for very long. But Ed had me on his
Speaker 1: show a couple of times, and my experience was nothing
Speaker 1: but great with him. You know, I enjoyed doing the show,
Speaker 1: and he gave me a platform at a time when
Speaker 1: a lot of this really terrible stuff was happening, and
Speaker 1: misleading information was getting out, and he allowed me to
Speaker 1: get on and correct the record, So it was it
Speaker 1: was really good to be on there.
Speaker 3: Sure I heard that interview is a good interview for sure,
Speaker 3: and I highly recommend folks check that out, even if
Speaker 3: you don't like that album, and check out John's interviews
Speaker 3: on there, because he goes into some of these discussions.
Speaker 2: If I remember correctly, that's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, regarding how all of a sudden, you know, he
Speaker 3: was getting a lot of messages from folks being sent
Speaker 3: to him, you know, on these topics that all of
Speaker 3: a sudden there's an uptick in interest, and it is
Speaker 3: very curious what is that uptacking interest? Is it the
Speaker 3: same uptick and interest that is generated now numerous Netflix
Speaker 3: documentaries on the topic. Yes, seeds to be a concerted
Speaker 3: effort to me. I mean, these are my opinions on
Speaker 3: the matter from looking over you know, watching these subjects,
Speaker 3: you know, reading, you know, you know, I read The
Speaker 3: Ultimate Evil for the first time probably around twenty to fifteen,
Speaker 3: I think it was, you know, the same time I
Speaker 3: was getting really into Charles Manson. I read every book
Speaker 3: on you know, the Family at Sanders The Family, great
Speaker 3: book on Manson highly recommend his stuff, you know, looking
Speaker 3: at his notes, I was shocked to learn him and
Speaker 3: him and Terry remained, you know, close associates for many
Speaker 3: years up until Terry's death. But it seems that Terry's
Speaker 3: death was the precipitating event that caused these the onslaught
Speaker 3: of this, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think so. And then a couple of years after that,
Speaker 1: Burk Woods gave a CBS News interview for the fortieth
Speaker 1: anniversary I guess of of of his arrest, and it
Speaker 1: was very It was garbled. You could you could see
Speaker 1: the video edits, you know, in the interview, and they
Speaker 1: were just like piecing parts of different sentences together. And
Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of people after that interviewer
Speaker 1: who said that was just bizarre. They did a really
Speaker 1: terrible job with that, and I said, yeah, I thought
Speaker 1: they did too. And what they were trying to make
Speaker 1: it sound like was that he had just confessed to
Speaker 1: the whole hog there. But but they I don't think
Speaker 1: they left even one sentence of his intact in that interview.
Speaker 1: But yeah, there was some interest after that as well.
Speaker 1: And then I think The Ultimate Evil was out of
Speaker 1: print for a while, which I didn't realize when I
Speaker 1: published my book, But people came forward and told me
Speaker 1: that when I published Pure and they said that my
Speaker 1: book at one point was about the only thing that
Speaker 1: they could get to read on it. And so I
Speaker 1: tried to encourage everybody to find an old paperback copy
Speaker 1: of Maury's book if they could, because it was you know,
Speaker 1: what I had written would really make a lot more
Speaker 1: sense if they had read Maury first. So but yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: fortunately back in print, how I albeit in a butchered version. Unfortunately, Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know where.
Speaker 3: I don't where you started that tangent there, John, But
Speaker 3: you made a good point there. That cut out there
Speaker 3: for a moment. But you make a good point there
Speaker 3: about the paper paper version versus the the digital version. Yeah,
Speaker 3: because and back to this this where where I cut
Speaker 3: out when we were talking about the concerted effort situation.
Speaker 3: You know this nonsense, This goes surrounds these topics these days,
Speaker 3: the new digital version, when the new print version from
Speaker 3: mister Zimons, the producer of the director of the Netflix
Speaker 3: documentary The Sons of Sam He Dana has been some
Speaker 3: comments in the UH chat about data over their Boddy
Speaker 3: jewels and her and her research and research team, and
Speaker 3: something that they've they've concluded over there was comparing the
Speaker 3: print version versus the digital version, and there's been a
Speaker 3: number of revisions, including an entire chapter wiped out.
Speaker 1: Very important stuff left out, Yeah, and crucial stuff in
Speaker 1: many cases, you know, names that are relevant. And yeah,
Speaker 1: the older a copy that people can find, the better
Speaker 1: off they will be with with Morey's work. Yeah, it's uh,
Speaker 1: it was a really unfortunate thing that happened with the
Speaker 1: latest printing of the book. So yeah, I would I
Speaker 1: would advise people to stay away from from that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: The accident either.
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't think.
Speaker 3: No, it's when you're wiping out an entire chapter on
Speaker 3: the the death mass murders, which native have you ever
Speaker 3: heard of some of these murders in New York City
Speaker 3: around the gay s and m community, the gay clubs.
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's very reminiscent of a pro a
Speaker 3: smilly faced killer type of murder.
Speaker 2: To be quite honest with you.
Speaker 4: I actually had Nick come on. I think we talked
Speaker 4: a little bit about that. Yeah, that was yeah, well specifically, yeah,
Speaker 4: and that is interesting. Jonathan. I had a quick question
Speaker 4: for you and of course this is all speculation, but
Speaker 4: you were saying that you had a researcher that was
Speaker 4: working with you for the book, right, and then at
Speaker 4: the end he was kind of twisting some of the
Speaker 4: information or he had a different like how much of
Speaker 4: you how much of that do you think are like
Speaker 4: disinformation agents? Like the way I look at it, like
Speaker 4: especially the mainstreams like version of like Netflix series now
Speaker 4: where people are getting like overly obsessed with like serial
Speaker 4: killers and true crime and this and that, I almost
Speaker 4: see it as a way of like it because they'll
Speaker 4: even cover things like Jeffrey Ebstein and and things like that.
Speaker 4: You're gonna have the big guys talking about Jeffrey Ebstein.
Speaker 4: It seems like a way of just like painting the
Speaker 4: narrative and having the allowable version of like what happened,
Speaker 4: and so they can like cover up all the actual
Speaker 4: crazy shit that happened. It seemed very concerted. It seems
Speaker 4: like it's very planned, Like I think, especially with Netflix nowadays,
Speaker 4: Like that's Edward Benaes's nephew, Mark Rudolph, Right, that's uh,
Speaker 4: it's pretty fascinating, like it like he was the father
Speaker 4: of propaganda, right, It seems like all of this has
Speaker 4: connections back to again always back to the CIA. To me,
Speaker 4: mk ultra, like all of this stuff seems pretty like
Speaker 4: connected with the CIA and things like that, covering things
Speaker 4: up and uh, you get uh, what man, what's the
Speaker 4: word that I'm looking for? You get a limited hangout, right,
Speaker 4: and so you get to talk about the bad guy,
Speaker 4: but you get to talk about it this kind of
Speaker 4: like in the three by five card of like allow.
Speaker 1: Yes, I could not agree more and there's one person
Speaker 1: in particular who is guilty of that, and yeah, I
Speaker 1: think a lot of this is largely uh, choreographed and deliberate.
Speaker 1: I wrote the book on my own, and then what
Speaker 1: I found as I progressed into research with my former
Speaker 1: colleagues is they never can right out and said, we
Speaker 1: want you to change some of the conclusions that you
Speaker 1: came to in your book. But that was the general idea.
Speaker 1: They started to There started to be more and more
Speaker 1: friction about particular conclusions, about particular suspects that I had made, uh.
Speaker 1: And I knew I was right because I had done
Speaker 1: the research to begin with, and then I was I
Speaker 1: was continuing the research even even as we worked together
Speaker 1: and there were a couple of suspects, in particular in
Speaker 1: a couple of situations related to Son of Sam that
Speaker 1: they really when I persisted in researching these areas, you know,
Speaker 1: they really had a problem with it. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: think a lot of this is it's a calculated effort,
Speaker 1: unfortunately and.
Speaker 2: Uh well financed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of media and and government weight behind them. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4: They get nervous when you're hovering over the target.
Speaker 1: Yes, and and their their nervousness rapidly turns into like,
Speaker 1: you know, querulous anger, and then they get really really
Speaker 1: petty about some things, you know. But I'm pretty stubborn,
Speaker 1: so I just stuck to my guns.
Speaker 4: So Jonathan, I also briefly, briefly read just a little
Speaker 4: connection that was David Berkowitz. Was he a member of
Speaker 4: the Processed Church? But also I heard that he was
Speaker 4: a member of the Scientology Is that correct? Or where
Speaker 4: is the connection there? He was, you know, he joined
Speaker 4: the Yonkers cult. There was there's a little bit of
Speaker 4: and I think this is one of the areas that's
Speaker 4: a little confusing in Maury's book is there was a
Speaker 4: pre existing cult in Yonkers that started in about the
Speaker 4: early to mid fifties. The Process came into the picture
Speaker 4: somewhere in the late sixties early seventies, and they sort
Speaker 4: of co opted this pre existing cult. The cult was still.
Speaker 1: There and they still met in under our part, but
Speaker 1: it appears to be the Process that was calling a
Speaker 1: lot of the shots by that point. So David may
Speaker 1: have never been a member of the Process per se,
Speaker 1: but he definitely was a member of the local Yonker's
Speaker 1: cult and they, yeah, they got their marching orders from
Speaker 1: the Process at that point. Yeah. And then the Process
Speaker 1: moved out of Manhattan about nineteen seventy eight, or at
Speaker 1: least a wing of the Process did, and relocated to Atlanta.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Native if I if I can put a
Speaker 3: better perspective, just a different perspective on the idea of
Speaker 3: the idea of the Process, Like, yeah, different, is it
Speaker 3: not just thinking of it as they generally accepted this cult,
Speaker 3: I look at more of as you're pointing out the
Speaker 3: intelligent Satanists, you know, intersection of these activities. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: so this was a this was a roll up operation
Speaker 3: in my opinion. So they're rolling up these various cults
Speaker 3: and that's why they have the four Deities as their gods, Jesus, Satan, Lucifer,
Speaker 3: and Jehovah, because that way they can basically roll up
Speaker 3: any cult into their mix.
Speaker 2: Right, So it's a roll up, roll up operation for
Speaker 2: hood Rat.
Speaker 3: Shet, you know, which, as John point out, they go
Speaker 3: to Atlanta and what pops off in Atlanta and the
Speaker 3: Atlanta child killings.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. Yeah, the process were I feel
Speaker 1: pretty satisfied to say that that they emerged directly from
Speaker 1: m I six British Intelligence uh Tavistock Institute, that that
Speaker 1: was the out of which the process.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, No, I totally agree with you.
Speaker 3: There in Tavistock they got their hands and on sorts
Speaker 3: of activity, including the the transgendered apocalypse that was plaguing
Speaker 3: the Western world that.
Speaker 2: Actually originated Tavistock.
Speaker 3: Yes, recently got shut down to the UK governments like Tavistock.
Speaker 2: You're done. So yeah, see that works out there does.
Speaker 1: Seem to have finally been a lie and that that
Speaker 1: people were unwilling to go beyond. So yeah, which is good.
Speaker 3: I mean as as a victim of the transpocalypse myself.
Speaker 3: The introduction tonight's show, Buff Jared Ervisa currently awaiting murder
Speaker 3: murder trial in the states of Connecticut and Massachusetts for
Speaker 3: a multi state stabbing spree where he also piston a McDonald's.
Speaker 2: I don't know why he did that, but what he did,
Speaker 2: so it was a fun filled afternoon for all Buffalo Jared.
Speaker 3: But he clearly, uh, you know, he's a very you know,
Speaker 3: he's a I kind of view him as in mind
Speaker 3: controlled trans this you know, mind controlled trans apocalypse situation
Speaker 3: of these killers that have been popping off. And I
Speaker 3: don't know that that's all that different from the Son
Speaker 3: of Sam situation, because you know, that's kind of the
Speaker 3: goal from my from my assessment at least, that's kind
Speaker 3: of the goal of this.
Speaker 2: Wrap up operation of the process that.
Speaker 3: Seems to be kind of the goal is to do
Speaker 3: these various you know, not just small chaotic events creating
Speaker 3: chaos throughout throughout the specifically America, but uh, I don't
Speaker 3: give a shit about other countries. But the uh, you know,
Speaker 3: the uh you know, they're they're they're associated with almost
Speaker 3: every major socio political assassination murder event and for the
Speaker 3: last what fifty years, you know, so and and the
Speaker 3: origin so there is you know, I'm sure John's fully
Speaker 3: fully aware of this contententu subject of the process because
Speaker 3: you watch things like again this concerted effort, right the
Speaker 3: the you know, the propaganda, as you're pointing out with
Speaker 3: the Netflix, there is the The Sons of Sam documentary.
Speaker 3: It says the process disbanded in nineteen seventy four, which
Speaker 3: is the official, you know, ridiculous tagline that gets you know,
Speaker 3: repeated over and over. It's clearly it's false. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's all false on its face. Yeah, there's really.
Speaker 2: The debate doesn't exist except for the people trying to
Speaker 2: lie about it. Right, but yeah, the.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you have you have that, that whole debate.
Speaker 3: But you know, regardless of that debate, you know, these
Speaker 3: people can call themselves.
Speaker 2: Whatever they want.
Speaker 3: They're doing the same activities and time and time again,
Speaker 3: from RFK you know, to uh the Son of Sam
Speaker 3: to you know, you essentially Samsung Gerald Ford if you
Speaker 3: want to, you know, bring in the Manson situations is
Speaker 3: more he does in The Ultimate Evil, and I think
Speaker 3: he does it for great reason. There's some deep Manson
Speaker 3: process connections, so you know, and uh, there's a lot
Speaker 3: to be said for these activities and a lot of
Speaker 3: things that have gotten ignored over the years. That have
Speaker 3: come to light in recent years is the Westchester County
Speaker 3: is a hot bed of activity with the processed church.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's not just the Yonkers cult as
Speaker 3: you're pointing out, John that Burke, which is clearly a
Speaker 3: part of but seems to have been as you're pointing
Speaker 3: out the you know, the puppet, the puppet puppet masters
Speaker 3: of that that Yonkers cult was by the nineteen seventies
Speaker 3: was members of the process and and Burke which has
Speaker 3: pointed these people out.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 3: In fact, the guy he pointed out was a very
Speaker 3: very affluent lifestyle and uh, the in a very prosperous
Speaker 3: uh you know Baltimore suburb Baltimore, Maryland suburbs, which I
Speaker 3: say prospers. There's not very many Baltimore, Maryland suburbs that
Speaker 3: are are They're pretty rough around there. So you know,
Speaker 3: there's a few there's a few nice areas areasa. You know,
Speaker 3: the healthcare CEO Killer Luis Image, he grew up in
Speaker 3: a nice area of the suburbs of Baltimore. I'd say
Speaker 3: this is the second nice area with the the former
Speaker 3: former or probably still current processed guy who he.
Speaker 4: Could have been Kal puppets and they could have been
Speaker 4: another one.
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yes, this individual in Maryland, he just tells people that
Speaker 1: he was in a commune. He just say he spent
Speaker 1: the wacky sixties and early seventies in a commune. And
Speaker 1: I believe he leaves it at that.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, that's that's possibly one of the one
Speaker 3: of the greater tragedies of this entire tales. A lot
Speaker 3: of these folks that were involved in this head rat
Speaker 3: shit and around the processing around the son of Sam
Speaker 3: Yonker's cult. Yeah, they went on to die of an
Speaker 3: old age.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they did, yeh, lived out their natural lives.
Speaker 3: And speaking of Netflix, the popular Netflix series Stranger Things,
Speaker 3: I believe one of the producers of that show was
Speaker 3: a fellow by the name of Gadgusek. In fact, that
Speaker 3: fella's uncle was Carlton gadget Sick. Yeah, yeah, he's correct
Speaker 3: me if I'm wrong. He's an inteable remember right in
Speaker 3: the Yonkers cold scene, correct, John he.
Speaker 1: Is alleged to have been. Yeah, he and and people
Speaker 1: should know he actually was a convicted child molester. Just hypotheticals.
Speaker 1: He actually was convicted and served a year in prison.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, what what was he bringing like fifty
Speaker 3: young boys back from Micronesia or some nonsense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, lots of boys and he right around the
Speaker 1: I mean, you know it. The investigation into Gadget Sick
Speaker 1: and the reopening of the Son of Sam case in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six. You know, it's I think a lot
Speaker 1: of mind started to change even back then, because suddenly
Speaker 1: more specific information was available, and sure, people like Gadget
Speaker 1: Sick who were allegedly connected to the case. You could
Speaker 1: suddenly see real names and faces that were connected to
Speaker 1: the case, whereas before it was something you read in
Speaker 1: a book and it was interesting, but you think, like, well, geez,
Speaker 1: can I research this or can I find out these
Speaker 1: people's names? And all of a sudden you saw more,
Speaker 1: you know, at least a few more names and faces
Speaker 1: in the case became a lot more concrete for a
Speaker 1: lot of people.
Speaker 4: It's funny, It's it's funny. All these people are always related,
Speaker 4: Like you said, so like that Netflix, a guy that
Speaker 4: made that the Project Monarch, that connection right there with
Speaker 4: the mk Ultra stuff. Yeah, with Stranger things.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, big time, big time, yeah, my control yeah,
Speaker 3: project stuff. So do you know who so after now
Speaker 3: you'll you'll enjoy this fun fact about old Carlton Gadgerchek.
Speaker 3: After he left the Yonker scene. There you moved to Washington,
Speaker 3: d C. And went to go work directly for Anthony Fauci.
Speaker 4: There you go. Did that's a big club and you
Speaker 4: ain't in it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's for damn sure. It was actually Faucy he
Speaker 3: was working for at the time when he h no
Speaker 3: one had any questions of this big fat doctor dude.
Speaker 2: Who works for the UNI.
Speaker 3: Ah just brings back fifty young boys from some strange
Speaker 3: South Pacific island.
Speaker 2: He's like, no, it's cool, that's cool. I'm their mentor.
Speaker 2: I'm their mentor.
Speaker 3: You know, no one had any questions for the guy,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like, it's a little ridiculous. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So that's that Fauci coverage. That dude's hooked in. Man,
Speaker 3: he's got the networked in. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, man. Yeah, So I'm curious, Uh, when do we
Speaker 4: know he got involved in that cult and how much
Speaker 4: of that? Because I'm almost so curious too because he
Speaker 4: he briefly mentioned uh or he did start talking about
Speaker 4: like being involved in a Satanic cult. But before his
Speaker 4: his testimony, was talking about a black dog. He was
Speaker 4: talking about a dog that was speaking to him. Do
Speaker 4: you give that any credence? Like how crazy he was?
Speaker 4: A sky was that after the acid woar off, he
Speaker 4: started out the actual stuff that was going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was Harvey. He was a real He was
Speaker 1: the Car's dog, the Car family's dog. No, I don't.
Speaker 1: I've never seen the least evidence that that burkewitz Is
Speaker 1: is insane or or does not have a grip on reality.
Speaker 1: He was. I think you could say he was an
Speaker 1: unhappy person, you know, for various reasons, but I think
Speaker 1: that's about as far as it went. He you know,
Speaker 1: he got involved with some very strange people. And then,
Speaker 1: as we were talking about earlier, there does seem to
Speaker 1: have been some event that prefigured all of this, possibly
Speaker 1: in the military or from his friendship with a with
Speaker 1: a mutual friend who knew both him and the cars
Speaker 1: that he knew this guy from a very young age.
Speaker 1: But so burke Wits may have been introduced to or
Speaker 1: at least you know, made aware of the cult as
Speaker 1: early as the late sixties or early seventies. But by
Speaker 1: the time he comes back home and he's gotten involved,
Speaker 1: we know he's involved by nineteen seventy five. I think
Speaker 1: he's just an unhappy person who's in over his head
Speaker 1: and they've you know, that the cult would threaten family
Speaker 1: members and they would say, you know, we're you know,
Speaker 1: we can hurt your parents or your siblings, whatever, and
Speaker 1: so he he didn't want his father to get hurt.
Speaker 1: So he found himself doing some things that he really
Speaker 1: didn't want to do. And for what it's worth, I
Speaker 1: think he's sincerely regretful about that. I think he is
Speaker 1: still conflicted, but I think he sincerely regrets his involvement
Speaker 1: in this and the fact that he hurt anybody. The
Speaker 1: campaign to make himself look mentally unstable was just that.
Speaker 1: I think it was a campaign on the part of
Speaker 1: the group to make his confession as the lone killer
Speaker 1: more effective and believable.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, the group in Rupert Murdoch New York
Speaker 3: Post was happy to run with its Yes.
Speaker 4: So as far as he goes, do you think that
Speaker 4: they sort of like found him because always to me,
Speaker 4: it's like they try to find It's exactly what the
Speaker 4: FBI does now, right where they try to find kind
Speaker 4: of kid that's troubled, uh, kind of kid that like,
Speaker 4: because it sounds like he liked to start fires in
Speaker 4: his earlier years, right, he was kind of so like
Speaker 4: he kind of found a kid who's like, you know,
Speaker 4: he didn't have a good father figure. He was kind
Speaker 4: of a troubled kid. He had like emotional issues, he
Speaker 4: got kicked out of the military. He was like he
Speaker 4: was perfect. Yeah, that's prime material right there, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think they did see in him the kind
Speaker 1: of person that they could use. Yah, as Maury said
Speaker 1: in the book, David was a little bit of a firebug.
Speaker 1: He was interested in that and this group they were
Speaker 1: you do find uh fires consistently year after year in
Speaker 1: the vicinity of where these people operated before and during
Speaker 1: the Son of Sam years that this this was a
Speaker 1: major preoccupation of theirs. And yeah, by the time that
Speaker 1: they're planning the Son of Sam attacks and Berkelewitz is
Speaker 1: actually at the planning meeting. Yeah, I think they saw
Speaker 1: him as as the kind of person who was loyal
Speaker 1: enough and tight lipped enough that he could be read
Speaker 1: into the actual planning of the attacks. So so he
Speaker 1: was there when they planned it. You know, in the
Speaker 1: spring of nineteen seventy six, him and one other member
Speaker 1: of the local cult, who is an interesting figure in
Speaker 1: his own right.
Speaker 3: But yeah, well we start, we can kind of move
Speaker 3: from there back.
Speaker 2: That's a good point that you make, John.
Speaker 3: But you know this, so this call, this Yonkers calls,
Speaker 3: We're calling it, you know they I've seen some comments
Speaker 3: the you know, Untremer Park was one of their meeting spaces,
Speaker 3: which interesting place on Trameyer Park with an interesting history.
Speaker 3: But this cult before burk Witz was there, I mean,
Speaker 3: it was a recruiting teenage you know. Burk Witz was
Speaker 3: recruited in his early twenties, but this was recruiting folks
Speaker 3: as early as their teenage years from my understanding, is
Speaker 3: that correct?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, very much back and all the way back
Speaker 1: in the early sixties. Excuse me, I think I may
Speaker 1: start getting a cold myself, but hope I can hold
Speaker 1: it off for at least a couple of hours here.
Speaker 1: But yeah, John Carr allegedly was a recruiter for the
Speaker 1: group at that point. He's fourteen fifteen years old, so
Speaker 1: he's recruiting people that he knows from school. And in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one he recruits a friend of his name,
Speaker 1: Paul Rainiery, who became very important witness later in the
Speaker 1: case that Morey interviewed extensively and who was also interviewed
Speaker 1: by the police later in his life. But he he
Speaker 1: was initiated into the cult in the spring of nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty one one. This was a brutal initiation where he
Speaker 1: and other teenagers were you know, drugged, bent over in
Speaker 1: the park, sodomized boys and girls. They heard dogs being
Speaker 1: killed behind them. They had dog blood poured over their
Speaker 1: bodies after the dogs were killed. This this is before
Speaker 1: the process ever came to the picture. This is how
Speaker 1: brutal the cult already was in the early sixties, you know.
Speaker 1: So they were, as Maury describes it. In Paul Raine
Speaker 1: Eery agreed, they were kind of a a ritual magic cult.
Speaker 1: They performed rituals associated with Alister Crowley, the Golden Dawn,
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But they were preoccupied primarily with
Speaker 1: sex with teenage boys, although there also were some young
Speaker 1: girls involved in it as well. That sounds like Alistair Crowley, Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, whenever I think Crowley's definitely the butt stuff now the.
Speaker 4: Magic okay, super magical that everything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, speaking of his brutal these brutal initiations, John
Speaker 3: Paul Rainiery. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong. He he
Speaker 3: also has a story there where he apparently drugged would
Speaker 3: later in life drug Jeffrey Dahmer take him back to
Speaker 3: his apartment there in Milwaukee, wheneer he was living in
Speaker 3: Milwaukee at this time. Drugs Jeffrey Dahmer at a gay
Speaker 3: club takes him home and brutally it rapes.
Speaker 2: In with like a candlestick or something like that.
Speaker 1: I have heard different. He definitely, he definitely copped to knowing,
Speaker 1: you know, at least meeting and being acquainted with him.
Speaker 1: I've heard different versions of the story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes mad, sometimes it a candlestick maybe, who knows.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And so I don't you know about the particulars.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how sure it was, you know, in reality,
Speaker 1: but he he did. I'm pretty well satisfied that he
Speaker 1: actually did know Dahmer. Uh, Paul was. You know, he's
Speaker 1: another one of these conflicted people. He had a very
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, he was already sort of awkward
Speaker 1: when he was initiated into the cult, and then from there,
Speaker 1: his his whole existence was just so scarred, you know
Speaker 1: that it's it's almost just unbelievable. How anybody could even
Speaker 1: survive those years that he survived, you know, in in
Speaker 1: the cult.
Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah, I mean that's some brutal stuff.
Speaker 1: For sure, just beyond it's painful to read about.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, but nothing witness for sure. Yeah, even even the
Speaker 3: sacrifice of animals. I mean, that's got to be some
Speaker 3: traumatizing effects on the psyche.
Speaker 1: I think so.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: He mentioned that in particular in one of his interviews
Speaker 1: with Maury. He said, you know, I didn't see it,
Speaker 1: but I can still hear those dogs yelping and howling
Speaker 1: behind me the night that they initiated me. So it was, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a lifelong, you know, nightmarish memory.
Speaker 2: I imagine.
Speaker 3: So the Mormons forced me to chop off some chickens
Speaker 3: heads on a Mormon pioneer camping trip and that went on.
Speaker 2: That's still traumatizing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can only imagine it's and stuff like that
Speaker 1: does have a lingering effect. No matter I don't care
Speaker 1: how much counseling you have or how much medication you
Speaker 1: can take. Here, there are gonna be times where you're
Speaker 1: just sitting around, not thinking about anything in particular, and
Speaker 1: those things are gonna come back to you.
Speaker 3: It's yeah, and it's yeah, for sure, I said someone Jess.
Speaker 3: But obviously yeah, the sacrif I mean kind of a
Speaker 3: chicken said that's dinner. But obviously witnessing the sacrifice of
Speaker 3: all these dogs, which seems to be the m of
Speaker 3: these cults, right like, whatever it is they're up to,
Speaker 3: there is a trail of dead dog as that goes around.
Speaker 1: With this there is, and with these people in particular,
Speaker 1: the German shepherds seem to have been really significant to
Speaker 1: their I don't know what you would call it doctrine
Speaker 1: or theology or whatever, but there were always German shepherds
Speaker 1: even before the process, which is interesting because we can
Speaker 1: trace the presence of German shepherd's in that neighborhood, in
Speaker 1: the car Berkelwitz neighborhood, all the way back to nineteen
Speaker 1: twenty five when a man who lived at twenty two
Speaker 1: Wicker Street, which figures prominently in the case that's right
Speaker 1: around the corner from the cars and just below the
Speaker 1: building that Berkelewitz lived in, he had a vicious German
Speaker 1: shepherd that got loose and attacked a female pedestrian. That house,
Speaker 1: twenty two Wicker is right alongside the aqueduct path that
Speaker 1: leads to hunter Meyer Park. So find the presence of
Speaker 1: these kinds of dogs, in particular, going all the way
Speaker 1: back well a century. Now, this was in March of
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty five, So something odd was happening in that
Speaker 1: neighborhood for for a long time. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So that's and that's kind of one of the key
Speaker 3: tenants of your book. Correct, is this cold activity does
Speaker 3: date back in Yonkers with a similar similar, similar racialistic
Speaker 3: activities like you're pointing out with the dead dogs, Yeah,
Speaker 3: back to the nineteen twenties.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's right. The odd little story.
Speaker 2: Is a long span, it really is.
Speaker 1: And I ran up on that story almost by accident.
Speaker 1: I was looking for something else entirely, but I kept
Speaker 1: finding odd incidents in that neighborhood and I thought, well, what,
Speaker 1: you know, what was happening here and what was the
Speaker 1: significance of it? And I don't you know, there's still
Speaker 1: a lot of questions to be answered, but I think
Speaker 1: I found enough circumstantial evidence to indicate that there was
Speaker 1: cult activity there from a pretty early date.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Now, Jonathan, we had somebody in the We had somebody
Speaker 4: in the chat asking about your book. Do you want
Speaker 4: to do a quick plug her name. She has a
Speaker 4: true crime podcast. Actually, uh, I'd love to hook you
Speaker 4: guys up after this. She has a pretty, uh, pretty
Speaker 4: good little following there. I think that would be awesome.
Speaker 4: But yeah, here's the book, and Jonathan, if you want
Speaker 4: to just do a quick little plug. Sorry, yeah, this
Speaker 4: is your show, JJ.
Speaker 2: But no knock it out.
Speaker 3: In fact, I sent a private message to put that
Speaker 3: in your rumble chat the Lincoln. I posted it here, but
Speaker 3: I'd realized it was in your your rumble chat that
Speaker 3: came from Now go ahead, John, sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's mainly about the cult prior to Burkelewitz,
Speaker 1: although I do touch on Berklewitz and the Son of
Speaker 1: Sam murders and even the aftermath there to some extent,
Speaker 1: But it's it's mainly about the history of the cult
Speaker 1: prior to Berkowitz, and I just tried to make it
Speaker 1: as uh as real and solid as I could for
Speaker 1: the reader, and use as many real names and as
Speaker 1: many real, you know, verified incidents from newspapers or research
Speaker 1: that I conducted with family members or friends of suspects
Speaker 1: and victims as I possibly could find. So it's about
Speaker 1: forty five pages long, and uh, it's just I intended
Speaker 1: it just as a kind of supplement to Maury's book. Awesome,
Speaker 1: So thank you guys. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: And Desert Rains asking is there another place to purchase
Speaker 3: this besides Amazon?
Speaker 1: I don't have any hard copies now unfortunately, But and
Speaker 1: I believe does it rain follow me on on x
Speaker 1: or Twitter? So I'd be happy If she can't get
Speaker 1: it via Kindle. I could just send her the text,
Speaker 1: you know, I could just send it as a as
Speaker 1: a Google share thing, but I'd be happy to do
Speaker 1: that if she If she can't read it electronically.
Speaker 3: There you go, does it ring? Yes, she's a prolific
Speaker 3: Twitter user. We definitely we communicate in there.
Speaker 2: Quite a bit.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm glad to all.
Speaker 2: Connect on there for sure. Okay, there she goes, Yep
Speaker 2: the no.
Speaker 3: So I think that's an interesting You bring up an
Speaker 3: interesting perspective. Have this this the soup in which this
Speaker 3: later Yonkers processed church cult movement grow into. And I
Speaker 3: think one of the interesting perspective, at least to me, is,
Speaker 3: you know, relative to these topics and the intelligence operations,
Speaker 3: et cetera, is that the deep state nature of these
Speaker 3: satanic cults specifically, you know, not just a keynote, but
Speaker 3: you know, specifically the processed church relative tonight's conversation, you know.
Speaker 3: And one of the one of the interesting law enforcement
Speaker 3: characters you find there are Yonkers running the police department
Speaker 3: and in the time frame you're talking about, in fact,
Speaker 3: he was a sergeant in the Detective Bureau. And Yonkers
Speaker 3: was none of the James Combey's grandfather, William Comeey. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I often wonder, you know, the characters like James
Speaker 3: Comey do they he would William Combey would later retire
Speaker 3: as the head of the Ankers PD.
Speaker 4: He was a commissioner well New York in general, it's
Speaker 4: kind of like it's old mafia families, Like if you
Speaker 4: want to be a somebody in New York, your grandfather
Speaker 4: had to be a somebody in New York, right exactly.
Speaker 4: It really is, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: That's a Now, that's a great way to put it.
Speaker 2: That is how it goes. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So and when I look at the people like Kobe,
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, yeah, again, you know, like you said,
Speaker 3: he's born, he's born into these positions. So he's inheriting
Speaker 3: these these roles and I think it's interesting that the
Speaker 3: key role he plays. You know, he was deemed Republican
Speaker 3: for many years. It's just that's Tom Fuller, you know,
Speaker 3: Uni Party nonsense. But what he really was was the
Speaker 3: clon bag man. Even though George Bush was appointing him
Speaker 3: to various positions within the Department the Justice, the roles
Speaker 3: he was, he was coming in for private industry to
Speaker 3: bury a Clinton situation. For example, his first one was
Speaker 3: he was assigned by George Bush to investigate Bill Clinton's
Speaker 3: pardon of a fellow by the name of Mark Rich
Speaker 3: Bill Clinton. One of his out the door pardons was
Speaker 3: a guy who was the number one man on the
Speaker 3: or number he was on the FBI's most wanted list.
Speaker 3: I think he was number maybe number two. He was
Speaker 3: a George Soros type character name named Mark Rich. He
Speaker 3: hadn't even been convicted of anything to be pardoned from.
Speaker 3: He was simply charged in on an FBI's wanted list
Speaker 3: and Clinton pardoned him. So there was a lot of
Speaker 3: I still don't think it's legal, but they brought Comey
Speaker 3: and you know, do one of these numbers and say
Speaker 3: it was legal. So that was his first job as
Speaker 3: far as being the Clintons bagman. So I find it
Speaker 3: interesting he's from Westchester County. There in Westchester County, you know,
Speaker 3: that's where they set up shot by these He has
Speaker 3: a lot of weird stuff. I'm not I'm not advocating
Speaker 3: for Westchester County to be you know, nuclear bomb or anything.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying there's a lot of weird shit that
Speaker 3: goes on in Westchester County. A lot of accults, you know,
Speaker 3: the Rockefeller Estates.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of a lot of.
Speaker 3: Old money stuff going on there. The Kennedy's for example,
Speaker 3: you know RFK when he was murdered by the process,
Speaker 3: you know, ostensibly murdered by the process, as all the
Speaker 3: legends go, and all the evidence seems to suggest, you know,
Speaker 3: sir Hanster on attending process uh you know, uh sex
Speaker 3: sex rituals apparently as well, according to some investigative reports.
Speaker 3: But nonetheless RFK, senator from New York at the time,
Speaker 3: lived in Westchester County.
Speaker 4: But don't worry, the government investigated itself and found that
Speaker 4: they were just he like.
Speaker 2: Guys, we're not guilty, all right.
Speaker 3: I just think, you know, I think that you know,
Speaker 3: there's some of these elements, so you know, One of
Speaker 3: the other elements I think that comes of mind is
Speaker 3: the seemingly deep connections between the upper echelon of the
Speaker 3: national security state of America and uh, you know, the
Speaker 3: Nazis that took over forty seven and uh you know
Speaker 3: via the National Security Act, the you know, deeply connected
Speaker 3: folks who were making those national security decisions, stamping things
Speaker 3: national security, which I think takes like three signatures, you know,
Speaker 3: folks like a Wall or Henry Kissinger, you know, his
Speaker 3: close connections with this processed Church activity there out of
Speaker 3: out of Westchester County and his underling Brince Gocroft, who
Speaker 3: would employ as an assistant and apparently a speech writer,
Speaker 3: a leader in the neo processed Church. A fellow by
Speaker 3: the name of J. J. Bryn, real creepy son of
Speaker 3: a bitch, operated a number of art galleries, very spooky.
Speaker 3: He was involved doing some really weird, malicious stuff. I
Speaker 3: believe in Lebanon he got picked up doing some spook stuff.
Speaker 3: But anyhow, he was a he was a prominent leader
Speaker 3: in this neo process movement. Again, right hand man to
Speaker 3: Kenry Kissinger's right hand man after and he was this
Speaker 3: guy was after Kissinger Scowcroft was.
Speaker 2: A national security advisor to numerous.
Speaker 3: Presidents, So we're talking about two dudes who are on
Speaker 3: a shortlist of folks stamping things. National security seemed to
Speaker 3: be deeply interrelated with the processed Church, so it's not
Speaker 3: just coming.
Speaker 1: I think the influence does extend all the way up
Speaker 1: the ladder. Unfortunately, there are people in positions of huge
Speaker 1: power who really are into this stuff and they're serious about.
Speaker 3: It, right right, It seems that way, right, And that's
Speaker 3: that was kind of seems like that was kind of
Speaker 3: Maury's stuff. So I don't want to go too far
Speaker 3: into the whole Mory's notes to Bacle, I mean, why
Speaker 3: we do want to discuss it somewhere here with you.
Speaker 3: But how far have you gotten into some of those
Speaker 3: files and releases, the files of of the quote unquote
Speaker 3: Terry files, the the what I just like to call
Speaker 3: the limited Hangout, but the Terry files that were released.
Speaker 1: The I have, I'm pretty familiar with them by now,
Speaker 1: and there was a point where I was I've stayed
Speaker 1: up for about three days reading through all of them,
Speaker 1: and then that slept for a little while and went
Speaker 1: through them again. But yeah, there's a wealth of stuff
Speaker 1: in there, and it confirms not only some of the
Speaker 1: things Maury said over the years, most of what he
Speaker 1: said in fact, but it also confirmed large parts of
Speaker 1: what I was saying, what I suspected, what I concluded
Speaker 1: via my own research. So the files definitely were helpful.
Speaker 1: I mean they named.
Speaker 2: Those pseudonyms right, well, yeah.
Speaker 1: We only knew them as pseudonyms. Or in fact, there
Speaker 1: were some people that he he didn't know about at
Speaker 1: all when he wrote the original book that we know
Speaker 1: about now, and he, you know, by nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 1: he had typed up what we call the Flipper List
Speaker 1: of witnesses, meaning people that he thought were or could
Speaker 1: be flipp or should be you know, by the police
Speaker 1: who could offer enough evidence to conclusively solve the case.
Speaker 1: And he typed up a list of I don't know,
Speaker 1: at least a couple of dozen people, but uh.
Speaker 2: One of which was a beam son.
Speaker 1: Right, A Beam had an aide who was deeply involved
Speaker 1: in this stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I believe one of his son was on
Speaker 3: that same list of anom miss taking.
Speaker 2: I believe it is an ed Beam.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm trying to think if if the sun I
Speaker 1: know of the two aides and one of them was
Speaker 1: was a close aid. I would have to go back
Speaker 1: and see if the sun was on there.
Speaker 2: That brings you to part for sure, that brings you to
Speaker 2: my next point. That brings you to the next point.
Speaker 3: If I just may make this point, then once again,
Speaker 3: if the mayor's son is in the cult and the
Speaker 3: New York City's they're not going to investigate the mayor
Speaker 3: and his son or like the mayor's son's not gonna
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like that's I think that's
Speaker 3: the nature of people want to say there was investigations
Speaker 3: and these things were there.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of things to point too
Speaker 2: that there wasn't.
Speaker 3: But I'm just saying, like when you take into that factor,
Speaker 3: like they're not gonna do shit if the mayor sons
Speaker 3: involved in these kinds of activities or the mayor's aides.
Speaker 1: Right when it extended that far, there was no way
Speaker 1: on it because we know that just before Burkelewitz's arrest
Speaker 1: they were searching for the yellow VW that had been
Speaker 1: seen at the last attack, right moment burkele Witz's arrest,
Speaker 1: at all that stuff about the yellow v W, the
Speaker 1: sketches of what are obviously different suspects. You know, all
Speaker 1: of that just goes completely out the window and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's just this one guy. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: the case, they never even made a case. They just
Speaker 1: said this is the guy, and he agreed that he
Speaker 1: was the guy, and that was the end of it.
Speaker 1: They never made any sort of error type case against
Speaker 1: David Berkowitz at all. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people probably don't realize that. They assumed that he went
Speaker 1: to trial. He didn't. He just confessed.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 1: That's the end of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And and they and he had his like a
Speaker 3: joint hearing of three three all three counties judges came
Speaker 3: into one one room and they all just convicted him
Speaker 3: at once.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's very unheard of American jurisprudence. Was Yeah.
Speaker 3: Another character that may may factor in this, this powerful
Speaker 3: network that has put a lid on these things. Felt
Speaker 3: you're gonna be familiar with their Nate Roy Kohne.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he made the list. He's on He's on Terry's
Speaker 3: list as being a member of this cult. Something that's
Speaker 3: when he really come to light in recent years when
Speaker 3: Terry's files because in public, you know, through a very
Speaker 3: varying measures in which to keep those away from the
Speaker 3: public that you know, have been going on since twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3: It appears they include folks like James Franco, Hollywood actor
Speaker 3: and alleged rapists of young young women, James Franco, the
Speaker 3: uh you know. But so I think there's a lot
Speaker 3: of these characters that have factored into that. But yeah,
Speaker 3: on these on these notes. So yeah, there, John, It
Speaker 3: seems to me I have a list of I got,
Speaker 3: I got, I got a list of files circa August
Speaker 3: I think of twenty twenty three, Yeah, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: Comparing those files to things like this website, I'm like, well,
Speaker 3: there's something going on here, you know. I mean, there's
Speaker 3: an effort speaking to this concerted effort. I'm like, well,
Speaker 3: when you start comparing some of the stuff, the stuff
Speaker 3: that I was sent versus the information on this now
Speaker 3: infamous website, the people versus David Berkowitz, which I believe
Speaker 3: populated around that same time.
Speaker 1: It did, Yeah, I think, uh, you know, there there
Speaker 1: are very relevant things on that website, including the flipper list,
Speaker 1: which I find very significant, was a lot of help
Speaker 1: in confirming my own.
Speaker 2: We pull up that list real quick while you're talking
Speaker 2: about in that member which section.
Speaker 1: It's Uh, it'll be in the newly added documents, and
Speaker 1: it'll be there's pretty far down the index page. There
Speaker 1: is a more Tarry page. Uh, and it's all in capitals.
Speaker 2: Let's see mine in the right department.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so, maybe just a little bit further down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's say, yeah, newly updated more Arry investigation files page
Speaker 1: on December sixteenth of yeah, twenty twenty three. And I
Speaker 1: believe it's going to be to the side there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that just below that right there. Moritary's list of individuals
Speaker 1: alleged to be Son of Sam cult members and associates. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a very helpful list. They'll show people a lot
Speaker 1: of the names that they've always wondered about and explained,
Speaker 1: you know, at least some of their significance in relation
Speaker 1: not just to the Son of Sam crimes, but to
Speaker 1: their their long term membership in the cult. The first
Speaker 1: two names on that list are Ace Brown and Sue
Speaker 1: Conway made it. Yeah, yeah, there there's Ace definitely was
Speaker 1: number one, but Sue would be a close second. I've
Speaker 1: researched her for a number of years and Uh, it
Speaker 1: only got more sordid and more interesting. She was, Uh, well,
Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil it, but I there's a
Speaker 1: lot about her in my booklet that's uh that I
Speaker 1: think people will find interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is these are these are some relevant points,
Speaker 3: just the great stuff for saying here, John, So these documents,
Speaker 3: I have a different list of documents, right then what's
Speaker 3: on that website? Like I've done an all inclusive thing,
Speaker 3: but like even the letters from Burkowitz, I have a
Speaker 3: different list of letters from Burke Wooz. And like you said,
Speaker 3: you stayed up and read all these things when you
Speaker 3: started looking at these files, I did the same thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah I haven't. I haven't read them in about a year,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, at least an overview. But I
Speaker 2: mean I have my pretty good memory.
Speaker 3: I could tell you what's in this files, and I
Speaker 3: can tell you what what just look at that website.
Speaker 3: Not only dan Over that Roddy Jewles has pointed out
Speaker 3: the folks on that website that are listed this process
Speaker 3: church members, numerous numerous parties are misidentified. Whether or not
Speaker 3: that's intentional or not, I'm leaning towards it probably is.
Speaker 1: But the photos, Yeah, are are ye. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of one example. There was there's a sketch of
Speaker 1: a guy named Jeff, and then there's somebody else who
Speaker 1: is also identified as Jeff, but they're two different people.
Speaker 1: And I can't remember who the guy who's misidentified is.
Speaker 3: But yeah, yes, some of that, Yeah, sure, I know
Speaker 3: one of them is Robert de Grimston's brother. They haven't
Speaker 3: listened Robert de Grimston even though it's his brother. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so my guess my question is.
Speaker 1: His name is misspelled. I don't know if that was
Speaker 1: intentional or just you know that that part could have
Speaker 1: been an honest mistake, but you never know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So have you ever seen any documents with so
Speaker 2: those are those are the documents that you've seen? It
Speaker 2: just the folks off the people versus David Berkowitz, and that.
Speaker 1: Is part of it. Yeah, what they have posted is
Speaker 1: part of it. There are other things various, you know more.
Speaker 1: He wrote a lot of things down behind in later years.
Speaker 1: A lot of is difficult to read. But there's a
Speaker 1: lot of that sort of stuff too.
Speaker 2: I just think it's weird.
Speaker 3: So you have these different like so that these are
Speaker 3: the Terry files right on this website right, we're just
Speaker 3: looking at and I have a different set and it
Speaker 3: seems like there was even maybe a third different set
Speaker 3: of stuff that was sent out. It just seems like
Speaker 3: there was this again, back to these concerted efforts, this
Speaker 3: misinformation disinformation campaign.
Speaker 2: I don't know what the ing game is to do this,
Speaker 2: but it seems like this was a concerted effort.
Speaker 3: To send varying you know, maybe maybe again the list
Speaker 3: of folks that I have in mind, or we can
Speaker 3: go over to the future show of you like it's
Speaker 3: different than what's on that website. I just wanted to
Speaker 3: I wanted to kind of touch your ideas on what
Speaker 3: you thought of what's going on here, Like what do
Speaker 3: you think is going on with these the the shifting
Speaker 3: nature of this, So Maury Terry dies and you know,
Speaker 3: his files are suddenly this weird, contentious matter and they're
Speaker 3: again now that there's varying.
Speaker 2: Releases of these, it's like it feels like a WikiLeaks release,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, like they're suddenly just dropping these random tranches
Speaker 3: of files on folks, and they're different files. I'm not
Speaker 3: saying WikiLeaks sends out different files. I'm just saying these
Speaker 3: weird drops of these files, Just why wouldn't it all
Speaker 3: be at once, Why wouldn't it be like Ed Sanders
Speaker 3: in the library that he he donated his up to
Speaker 3: Princeton Library. I've seen to it's you know, it's not well,
Speaker 3: very well organized, but at least it's kind of collected
Speaker 3: in one one spot, right and available.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be curious to see what the second batch
Speaker 1: looks like because I don't know if I've seen any
Speaker 1: of that at all. But that's interesting. The people more
Speaker 1: identified there in the Flipper list, I know, just from
Speaker 1: my own research and from talking to various folks who
Speaker 1: knew about Morey's research at the.
Speaker 4: Time, that.
Speaker 1: Those folks definitely were involved. But those are like firstier
Speaker 1: level of of the you know, the street level members
Speaker 1: of of the cult. Uh so, so those folks definitely
Speaker 1: were involved. We're talking about the Conways, the John Defrinza's,
Speaker 1: the Sperazas, those folks that they definitely were involved. But
Speaker 1: but I'd be curious to see this additional batch of
Speaker 1: stuff because I don't I don't know if I've seen
Speaker 1: any of that.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was, Yeah, and of course Tiny Lentini was involved.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Lentini's not even on the list that I'm
Speaker 2: talking about the whole really different.
Speaker 1: That may be a shorter list, was it sort of
Speaker 1: did it say something about like being a working list
Speaker 1: of of the twenty two disciples maybe was it a
Speaker 1: list like that?
Speaker 2: I think so, Yeah, yeah, that may have been.
Speaker 1: And I think that was just a working list at
Speaker 1: one time. I'm not sure what what the day that was,
Speaker 1: but more exisiting later. Yeah, but he did get a
Speaker 1: working list that I think Howard wise he added and
Speaker 1: and handwriting at the bottom. And he was a friend
Speaker 1: of Burkelewitz. Is he He definitely was like associated with
Speaker 1: the cult, but burklewitoz City wasn't a member. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the first list had maybe a couple dozen
Speaker 1: people on it or else. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So Jonathan, how active is this cult still ongoing?
Speaker 4: Is this called kind of dright up at this point?
Speaker 4: And we kind of know that like kind of like
Speaker 4: what you said earlier, JJ, It's like, I don't I
Speaker 4: don't remember the metaphor you used, but it's kind of
Speaker 4: like how they say the Illuminati ended in like seventeen
Speaker 4: eighty five, Well we know it didn't, right, So it's
Speaker 4: so if if this cult is still ongoing. Is is
Speaker 4: Burkelewood's actually naming names at this point, I'm curious, like,
Speaker 4: how much money do we have to put in his
Speaker 4: commissary to get him on the show.
Speaker 2: Do you think.
Speaker 1: I don't know? He he did name names to Maury
Speaker 1: when this case was reopened, you know, in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: six to ninety seven, he did, he he, he, and
Speaker 1: he signed off on, you know, a longer list, which
Speaker 1: is also been posted to the People Versus Berkowitz page.
Speaker 1: Since then, I believe he has been very reluctant to
Speaker 1: talk about the case in general. He I think the
Speaker 1: information we have in Maury's files is probably as close
Speaker 1: as we're going to get to saying Okay, this is
Speaker 1: definitely who is involved. I'm sure other people were involved
Speaker 1: who have not been named, who we can't identify, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: probably at this point. But but this this is a
Speaker 1: pretty good guidebook here, just the flipper list, because I
Speaker 1: can't tell you how many dozens of awkward phone calls
Speaker 1: I've made, emails, I've scent sometimes I've sent letters even
Speaker 1: in the mail when I couldn't find any other way
Speaker 1: to get in touch with somebody, And I have actually
Speaker 1: gotten people to contact me back via snail mail. But
Speaker 1: what morey typed out here in this list, these were
Speaker 1: the core people who were involved. Uh, and they you know,
Speaker 1: if you find people who knew them, they a lot
Speaker 1: of times people won't talk a lot of times people
Speaker 1: are still uncomfortable about it, regardless.
Speaker 2: Of you know, the passage, right, it's kind of mob.
Speaker 1: Is. Yeah, but sometimes you run up on somebody and
Speaker 1: you just catch them in the right mood and they
Speaker 1: tell you some some pretty good stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, So according to this uh this this this
Speaker 3: blurb here regarding this quintin bieber Fella, It's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: Jane and Mansfield was seen at entre Myer Park rituals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she wasn't. In fact, Paul Raine Eery said he
Speaker 1: met her there in that she participated in one of
Speaker 1: their occult sex rituals her.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they were actually married or not,
Speaker 1: but her manager and he was her boyfriend anyway, but
Speaker 1: possibly they were married. I'm a little fuzzy on if
Speaker 1: they were common law or if they were legally married.
Speaker 1: But was a fellow named Matt Simber who was from
Speaker 1: Younkers and growing up there, going to high school there.
Speaker 1: Kind of a shady character. He directed a really strange
Speaker 1: movie later in life called The Witch Who Came from
Speaker 1: the Sea, which is a very disturbing, bizarre movie about
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse. Yeah. He he was around that scene too,
Speaker 1: Quentin Biever was. Yeah, he was part of that little
Speaker 1: actors troupe, the Saint Mary's Players, and Berkowitz recalled him
Speaker 1: as somebody who was also associated with the cult, in
Speaker 1: particular it's odd sex practices and sex parties.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think to answer your question writ some
Speaker 3: contexts and to your questionnaire, not only is this stuff
Speaker 3: going on, but you know, again speaking to to why
Speaker 3: or not Burke Whit's name, folks, Yeah, I mean also
Speaker 3: about Burka Witz and Terry, from what I've seen throughout
Speaker 3: their correspondence is they had a very close relations and
Speaker 3: looking at some of their letters back and forth from
Speaker 3: each other in Terry's files for many years, you know,
Speaker 3: talking all sorts of subjects from sports to life. But nonetheless,
Speaker 3: he definitely seemed to trust Terry and again pointed, you
Speaker 3: know a lot of stuff Terry investigating himself from my understanding,
Speaker 3: but Burke Wits would confirm. But nonetheless he has he
Speaker 3: has provided information. But you know, speaking again to this,
Speaker 3: is this stuff going on while Jane Mansfield's daughter is
Speaker 3: a very prominent actress in Hollywood still today, so or
Speaker 3: at least the New York side of Hollywood, right, I
Speaker 3: believe one of the Law and Order shows.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know you have the offsprings of these folks.
Speaker 3: And again speaking of another offspring that's famous in this
Speaker 3: kind of processed church narrative, one Terry Melcher of the
Speaker 3: Beach Boys fame. He you know, he wrote one of
Speaker 3: their famous songs from the Tom Cruise Bartending film from
Speaker 3: the eighties, cocktail Kocomo, written by Terry Melcher, son of
Speaker 3: Doris Day who Doris Days all involved in this kind
Speaker 3: of Hollywood process angles. So it was Terry Melcher who
Speaker 3: who was living there at the uh the Tate Polanski
Speaker 3: home prior to uh, you know Tate Pilansky movieon and
Speaker 3: you know, New New and was friends with Charles Manson.
Speaker 4: So I didn't we You and I were talking about
Speaker 4: it a little bit before we even got started recording
Speaker 4: about my crazy father, and I wonder sometimes if he
Speaker 4: had some weird he must have had some weird CIA
Speaker 4: connections or MK ultra connections. But he was good friends
Speaker 4: with one of the beach boys. I don't remember which one,
Speaker 4: the bad one, whichever the bad one was, because I
Speaker 4: know that he did Heroin with him. Uh and my
Speaker 4: my father was a crazy heroin addict.
Speaker 2: But also uh so he was living in Los Angeles
Speaker 2: in the late sixties.
Speaker 4: M hm, well yes, yeah, so I think most of
Speaker 4: the time he lived near lom Poke, but he Santa Barbara, yeah,
Speaker 4: that area, but he went everyone everywhere from the Bay area,
Speaker 4: so like San Francisco, because they know he knew Osley.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: He was getting acid from like straight from the source,
Speaker 4: and then he was taking it back to seventh.
Speaker 2: Right there, right, yeah, exactly LSD.
Speaker 4: I know my mom met him. I know my mom
Speaker 4: met uh Charles Manson as well. We talked a little
Speaker 4: bit about that earlier. That Charles Manson was a friend
Speaker 4: of my father. My father was his drug dealer.
Speaker 2: Uh and uh that's wild.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's weird connections all through out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they had a little boy he died, and I think, yeah, they.
Speaker 4: All hung out at a place they called the House
Speaker 4: of the Rising Sun. Actually they had a house.
Speaker 2: They really all did.
Speaker 4: And I don't know if that if that's where if
Speaker 4: they named it after the song, or the song was
Speaker 4: named after there, but the animals, I don't remember, dude,
Speaker 4: I don't any of this. I wish my dad was
Speaker 4: so alive. Actually he died in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 2: The animals.
Speaker 4: Interesting stuff.
Speaker 2: Your father passed in two thousand and seven, walked. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so you were, you were you close.
Speaker 4: With the man, as close as you can be with
Speaker 4: a heroin addict.
Speaker 2: He was, you know, he sound like he had some
Speaker 2: some trouble past with him with some drug his drug addictions.
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, exactly, you hear from him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was.
Speaker 4: He was an interesting guy, you know, he was uh yeah,
Speaker 4: he was a nice guy, generous guy, but also could
Speaker 4: be prone to extreme violence. Like I just remember stories.
Speaker 4: Uh some dude called my mom fat or something in
Speaker 4: the middle of the store and my dad beat him
Speaker 4: half to death with like a blackjack and then they
Speaker 4: had to run out of the store. You know, just
Speaker 4: you know, wild stories like that. But he never well, okay,
Speaker 4: I won't say he never got caught, because he did.
Speaker 4: He was in and out of prison sometimes. Yeah, he
Speaker 4: definitely did some time and interesting stuff. The kidnapped real
Speaker 4: JJ yeah, people have been uh comping about you were
Speaker 4: looking ten years younger and maybe you're of himself.
Speaker 3: Well that's pretty good, the breadless wonder the Uh yeah, no,
Speaker 3: that's that's pretty well. So how do you think your
Speaker 3: father got associated with some of these activities? Was it
Speaker 3: through the drug drug use?
Speaker 4: It had dude, No, he wasn't a biker, dude, he
Speaker 4: was a beanner. He was an interesting guy. Uh, you know,
Speaker 4: I'm trying to think of anything that really could have
Speaker 4: got him connected. I know that when he was in prison,
Speaker 4: they made him the head of the Brown Beret was
Speaker 4: like a prison gang. They put him in charge of
Speaker 4: some things like that he didn't necessarily want to be.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't I don't really know actually how
Speaker 4: he really got connected. It must have just been through
Speaker 4: drugs and uh yeah, I don't know enough about him honestly, Like,
Speaker 4: I don't know that side of him. I could try.
Speaker 4: I've been trying to get my mom on the show
Speaker 4: for years because.
Speaker 2: Start asking her. Start in segrogator, tell me what you know,
Speaker 2: give me a name. No, that's that's a while. That's
Speaker 2: a wild tale though. Man. That's yeah.
Speaker 3: I appreciate your sharing that for sure, because I think
Speaker 3: that's an interesting perspective you bring up with that tale
Speaker 3: because a lot one of the things I think it's
Speaker 3: in John. John can probably speak to this from police
Speaker 3: feel free interjected at anytime, John, the point where everyone
Speaker 3: wants to say, like, how did Jorey Burke Wwitz get
Speaker 3: associated with these these prominent doctors and lawyers and you
Speaker 3: know socialites in this cult movement and Yonkers?
Speaker 2: What's It's the drug movements. It's the drug culture.
Speaker 3: You much like your father probably associated with Dennis Wilson.
Speaker 3: They probably were ad a heroin drug. I mean, no
Speaker 3: disrespective your your father, but I me saying like, this
Speaker 3: is how these things happen. You're at a heroin drug
Speaker 3: then you're like, oh, ship, are you a beach boy?
Speaker 3: Like yeah, let's do some fucking everyone together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean more complicated. I don't think that exactly.
Speaker 1: So, I I think it's a lot of it involved
Speaker 1: him going to pick up drugs somewhere or holding drugs
Speaker 1: and then somebody would come to him and they would
Speaker 1: take the drugs. A lot of it revolved around that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I think that's I mean, I think that's
Speaker 3: a lot of how these interactions and you know, associations
Speaker 3: do occur.
Speaker 2: It is the cult scene, it's the drug scene. It's
Speaker 2: a little bit of both. Maybe.
Speaker 3: You know, sometimes I wonder, you know, another infamous tale
Speaker 3: about Berkowitz, Nate, you might you'll you'll appreciate this one,
Speaker 3: at least my thoughts on I think you'll appreciate another
Speaker 3: infamous tale. John is he hung out at Studio fifty four. Correct,
Speaker 3: that's one of the uh I believe.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and he of course he went to parties
Speaker 1: at Roy Cohen's place and right the various yachts and
Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff. Yeah, he saw probably more of
Speaker 1: the world that way than he would have been able
Speaker 1: to see otherwise.
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, for sure, And that's a good point. Yeah,
Speaker 2: for sure. He definitely it was culture.
Speaker 3: He was a cultured man that David Burkowitz with the
Speaker 3: you know, I often I often wonder, you know, and
Speaker 3: I just have some ridiculous the thoughts of my brain
Speaker 3: all here.
Speaker 2: You know. It's you know, David Burke.
Speaker 3: Wits associated with Roy Cone, Donald Trump knew Roy Cone,
Speaker 3: Donald Trump's Studio fifty four, David Burke Wood's the Sudio
Speaker 3: fifty four, Michael Jackson's the Studio fifty four around the
Speaker 3: same time.
Speaker 2: Are Michael Jackson, David Burke Whitz, and Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: Moon walking their way around the dance floor of Studio
Speaker 3: fifty four there in the mid to late seventies.
Speaker 2: Because it seems like they're all hanging out there together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was probably and Andrew Crispo, the
Speaker 1: crazy there and yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the that's the dude that Zeeman edited out
Speaker 3: of the book, The The Digital Version of the Ultimate Evil.
Speaker 2: He said, no more Crisp bo Yes, I mean that's
Speaker 2: it's high society Brooke, which is uh is hob nobbin
Speaker 2: with it.
Speaker 1: Really was, Yeah, I mean he was uh uh. He
Speaker 1: had and I believe accurate recollections and a lot of
Speaker 1: this stuff, just like when rainy Ere he remembered, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: Jane Mansfield was at one of these sex parties that
Speaker 1: the cult had. I do think these are our accurate recollections,
Speaker 1: because that's what these people get up to in their downtime.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just you know, you go to crazy
Speaker 1: parties and you know you're you're from Hollywood or you're
Speaker 1: a musician, and you meet local people and stuff just happens.
Speaker 3: You know, so yeah, yeah, interesting strange culture of that
Speaker 3: drug culture does seem to make some odd some odd
Speaker 3: bedfellows at times. Yes, yeah, especially within the Satanists kind
Speaker 3: of drug culture network.
Speaker 2: You know, not just New York City. You know, the
Speaker 2: whole The Ultimate Evil popped off in North Dakota as well,
Speaker 2: part of the story storyline there.
Speaker 3: So it's a Frans national pipeline of this kind of
Speaker 3: satanic drug activity. John Carr specifically there and mine not
Speaker 3: in North Dakota. I've been to my not there's an
Speaker 3: Air Force base there, and you know, I was a
Speaker 3: MP in the Air Force for for for many years.
Speaker 3: This is this is probably halfway through my career. So
Speaker 3: maybe around twenty eleven or so, I was up there
Speaker 3: from headquarters. We were opening up a new union on
Speaker 3: the base there. But so you know, I'm I'm in
Speaker 3: an environment where I should feel comfortable in my Air
Speaker 3: Force basement, air Force MP, I should shouldn't find this
Speaker 3: place to be a very peculiar spot.
Speaker 2: I'm like that place as creepy as fuck.
Speaker 3: And you know, oh yeah, and I don't want to
Speaker 3: be there one minute longer than I had to be
Speaker 3: there on like a three day trip. I think I
Speaker 3: got to go back to a second time for like
Speaker 3: an I only say, like a day you know, when
Speaker 3: I was watching I mean, for what it is that
Speaker 3: Son of Sam Sons of Sam documentary on Netflix, you know,
Speaker 3: is an interesting you know perspective to see how they're
Speaker 3: framing this kind of cover up situation is what I
Speaker 3: have to call the processed Church cover upper movement. But
Speaker 3: the you know, there's some interesting details to discern from
Speaker 3: there as well. So I mean, I don't I don't
Speaker 3: really don't tell people to you know, just roll, you know,
Speaker 3: don't just throw it out, you know, you know, without
Speaker 3: you know, checking it out. Yeah, don't don't throw out
Speaker 3: the baby with the bathtub situation, you know. But what more,
Speaker 3: Maury's producer friend that went up there and investigated some
Speaker 3: of Maury's claims there in the Ultimate Evele and verified
Speaker 3: these claims, you know, as he speaks about in the documentary.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: He I laughed when he talked about how creepy it
Speaker 3: was there. I'm like, do ain't lying creepy town?
Speaker 1: It sounds interesting, you know. I talked to Glenn Geatson
Speaker 1: just briefly a few years ago, the deputy who actually
Speaker 1: pulled John Carr up off the side of the road
Speaker 1: that time, after he was pushed out of the van
Speaker 1: and his money was stolen. And you know, that marked
Speaker 1: the sort of the beginning of John's gradual breakdown, you know,
Speaker 1: the last whatever year and a half of his life,
Speaker 1: two years whatever it was. And he uh, and he
Speaker 1: appeared just briefly in the in the Netflix documentary, but
Speaker 1: he said, you know, the town was just lousy with
Speaker 1: a cult activity. He said, it was all over the place.
Speaker 1: He responded to various calls, you know, across town and
Speaker 1: that it you know, there was always something like that
Speaker 1: going on somewhere, he said.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, yeah, I mean I was stationed a very
Speaker 3: similar town in Montana, Great Balls, Montana and quite as creepy,
Speaker 3: but still kind of creepy. And looking back, I think
Speaker 3: I see a very similar environment, you know, that was
Speaker 3: that was a very young man at the time. I
Speaker 3: was drinking every day, I was off so off work,
Speaker 3: so I really wasn't paying attention to these kind of
Speaker 3: details back then.
Speaker 2: But I didn't counter.
Speaker 3: While I was living there, I did come face to
Speaker 3: face with a cannibalistic child, you know, diddling child murderer
Speaker 3: who apparently was serving up, you know, human human burgers
Speaker 3: there at the local party's fellow the name of Nathaniel
Speaker 3: Barr Jonah. He was arrested and later murdered in a
Speaker 3: Montana prison. But he was clearly part of a satanic
Speaker 3: pedophilic cult network while I was living there in Great Falls. So,
Speaker 3: I mean, again, very similar environment to mine. Not the
Speaker 3: United States Air Force is basically the reason. But why
Speaker 3: both of these cities exist, I weren't for the air force,
Speaker 3: bass that is the economy, So very strange kind of
Speaker 3: correlations there between the two places. But yeah, might not
Speaker 3: super creepy. So you got to talk to the sheriff
Speaker 3: phone that one of the deputies that investigated him.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, And he was a very nice man,
Speaker 1: very humble, you know, willing to talk about it just
Speaker 1: you know, straight away. And uh he he had he
Speaker 1: said that that there was consistent cult activity in and
Speaker 1: around mind not at the time.
Speaker 2: And and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I differ from what you read in in Maury's book,
Speaker 1: it's there. There definitely was something going on out there.
Speaker 1: I've always been curious exactly how the relationship was formed
Speaker 1: between the North Dakota Cult and the Yonkers cult.
Speaker 2: It may have been that's a great question. I've wandered
Speaker 2: the same. Yeah, yeah, no, I go ahead, interrupted her.
Speaker 3: I just I know it's one of the things that
Speaker 3: I've long wondered, Like, yeah, again, I asked some ideas,
Speaker 3: but I would like to hear to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 1: I would I would just assume that logically it had
Speaker 1: something to do with John Carr's drug connections, you know,
Speaker 1: but it may have even gone back further than that.
Speaker 1: But I'd love to see somebody research that subject because
Speaker 1: it's it's it's right for research. A lot of work
Speaker 1: could be done on that, establishing the connection between Mine
Speaker 1: Not and Yonkers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm not suggesting you write a subsequent book
Speaker 3: to to to your son of sam that, but by
Speaker 3: all means, it sounds like you might be the perfect
Speaker 3: man for the mission. I think there would be there
Speaker 3: would be an addict it would be an adequate study.
Speaker 3: Is the submerged history of the mine Not North's Scota Coult.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: If I ever run across any information, I'd love to
Speaker 1: get into it, because this is uh. I live for
Speaker 1: this essentially now, It's central to everything I do. I'm
Speaker 1: I am working on another book and that may figure
Speaker 1: into it, you know, at some point if I can
Speaker 1: just kind of get my foot into the into the
Speaker 1: research door there. But uh, but I am working on
Speaker 1: something else and hopefully it's uh, i'll at least have
Speaker 1: a first draft ready in another four months or so.
Speaker 1: I'm shooting four.
Speaker 4: You give us a little sneak peak about what second?
Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah, it Nate.
Speaker 1: It's just more of the same, just just in greater
Speaker 1: detail because people have asked me, well, what about this
Speaker 1: person or this event or whatever. So I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to cram it all in there and it'll at least
Speaker 1: be like a couple of hundred pages and maybe even
Speaker 1: more than that. So you know, the research is ongoing,
Speaker 1: so I'm just going to keep adding to it as
Speaker 1: as I go. And it looks like it's going to
Speaker 1: turn into a pretty big book before it's finished. So
Speaker 1: I'll just bear with me because I'm I'm a really
Speaker 1: slow workers, but I'm getting there.
Speaker 3: Hey, no worries, John, You're welcome back anytime to discuss
Speaker 3: your future book as well, or more of these discussions.
Speaker 2: I don't want to.
Speaker 3: I appreciate your time tonight. I want to keep it
Speaker 3: too long here and I'll definitely give you both, you gents,
Speaker 3: some closing thoughts after we get things.
Speaker 2: Wrapped up here about an hour and a half.
Speaker 3: But I just wanted to share with you my thoughts
Speaker 3: on mine not North Dakota, and regarding the submerged history
Speaker 3: and how it may figure into the overall narrative. So
Speaker 3: the city is known as the Magic City, so it
Speaker 3: almost has some some occult, you know, connotations to its name.
Speaker 2: It was founded by Stephen myn know or might not.
Speaker 3: It's one of their prominent Brahmin you know, Brahmin class
Speaker 3: of you know, balls than the Boston blue blood families,
Speaker 3: one of them there out of Brookline, a wealthy suburb.
Speaker 3: They're very interrelated and intermarried with the Weld family. In fact,
Speaker 3: Tuesday Weld, you famember with the actress Tuesday Well. Is
Speaker 3: that a name either of you gents have ever heard
Speaker 3: of before?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what you know, as far as you're understanding, John,
Speaker 3: is you know, do you understand she's a she's deeply
Speaker 3: ingrained in the occult activities of Hollywood, And you.
Speaker 1: Know, I honestly didn't know that about her. But that
Speaker 1: gives me something else to research tomorrow, because oh, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm on top of this all the time, so that
Speaker 1: that's a whole new area for me. But I look
Speaker 1: forward to finding out about it.
Speaker 3: So Tuesday Weld we talked about Jane Mansfield and being
Speaker 3: president of Ltremer Park Rituals, so she was Anton LeVay
Speaker 3: dedicated his Satanic Bible to one of the individuals there
Speaker 3: was Jane Mansfield, who was a member of the Church
Speaker 3: of Satan. Then another individual in that same dedication was
Speaker 3: Tuesday World, and then I teen seventy two.
Speaker 2: Book Modern Day Witchcraft.
Speaker 3: Maybe I can send you the link later, John and
Speaker 3: put it in the show notes the name of the
Speaker 3: books Escaping Me. But Anton LeVay's interviewed in this obscure
Speaker 3: book in the seventies and he says the reason why
Speaker 3: he dedicated it to Tuesday Weld is because she's part
Speaker 3: of the Rituals, so implying that she's deeply involved in
Speaker 3: occult activity. Other individuals with later pegers being this quote
Speaker 3: unquote Illuminati hypriesis folks like Adam go Rightly, an author
Speaker 3: who did in extensive coverage of the Manson family. In fact,
Speaker 3: I highly recommend his book The Shadow over Santa Susana,
Speaker 3: which he kind of picked up a lot of I
Speaker 3: don't know if he knew I don't know if he
Speaker 3: ever met ed Sanders. He definitely picked up a lot
Speaker 3: of the Sanders narrative from the family and ran with
Speaker 3: some of those, you know, evolution of some of those
Speaker 3: ideas and concepts.
Speaker 2: Great book, great analysis.
Speaker 3: He would later write a book about you know, write
Speaker 3: some blogs about Tuesday Weld and some magazine articles. I
Speaker 3: believe anyhow, she seems very ingrained within this cult rich
Speaker 3: network and whatnot. She's allegedly deeply tied to the whole
Speaker 3: Manson situation. But her great grandfather was Stephen my not
Speaker 3: Wild who would have been second cousins, I believe, with
Speaker 3: the fella who who started Mine, not North Dakota. So
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, well, amongst these kind of up right,
Speaker 3: we talked about the quote unquote elite society of Westchester County. Well,
Speaker 3: if we want to talk about other elite societies the
Speaker 3: Westchester County of Boston, as these Boston Brahmins, the quote
Speaker 3: unquote blue bloods, these Brookline families, like the Welds, like
Speaker 3: the mine Nots, and here we go. Here we have
Speaker 3: an intersection of the world. Family who has a lengthy
Speaker 3: history dating back to the Old World. They claim to
Speaker 3: be descendants from the ancient kings of Tara from from Ireland,
Speaker 3: so they have a long occult history. You know, numerous
Speaker 3: publications citing this over the years. There's another So you
Speaker 3: have this family who again his cousins with the guy
Speaker 3: who founded mine, not North Dakota. I don't think these
Speaker 3: subjects are that far off.
Speaker 1: No, no, And there seems to be a similar pattern,
Speaker 1: like you said, lots of places with I think, well,
Speaker 1: like in Yonkers. Arguably the cult activity goes all the
Speaker 1: way back to the time of Jeez, what's his name?
Speaker 1: His name completely escapes me now, the guy who originally
Speaker 1: lived on the ground Parkore but Tilda Tilden, Yeah, the
Speaker 1: the failed presidential candidate.
Speaker 2: Yeah he yeah, well he technically won. Technically he won.
Speaker 2: It was the Great Compromise of eighteen seventy seven.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I just completely blanked on his name there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would argue that that even in his day,
Speaker 1: there there were some odd things going on. I've run
Speaker 1: across one or two vague newspaper headlines that made it
Speaker 1: sound like some odd things were happening in the vicinity
Speaker 1: of his property.
Speaker 2: But but yeah, a good point.
Speaker 3: That's a good point in perhaps grasps for future conversation,
Speaker 3: because one thing I'm deeply interested in is the mounds,
Speaker 3: these ancient architectural victual sites of America, and that property
Speaker 3: as a mound site property. So that's a good point
Speaker 3: you bring up, John, we talk about the nineteen twenties,
Speaker 3: this shit goes back even further.
Speaker 2: It seems like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no till that
Speaker 2: Tilda's Till is an interesting character.
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure, Yeah, yeah, I want to I want
Speaker 1: to read more about him. It's somewhere I have bookmarked
Speaker 1: or screenshoted a couple of those headlines that I was
Speaker 1: referring to just a minute ago. But there were there
Speaker 1: were things that they were just odd enough that you think,
Speaker 1: you know, all the way back then, something is is
Speaker 1: already happening on this property that's not wholesome.
Speaker 2: You know it, right? Yeah, it got some nefarious ship.
Speaker 2: You got some nefarious ship popping off there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again Antremyer deeply politically politically connected. His I'm
Speaker 3: not andre My Tilden. His uh, his mentor was Martin
Speaker 3: van Buren. President Martin van Buren. He was part of
Speaker 3: the Tammany Hall network and his father, Tilden's father was
Speaker 3: a he's a carpet bagger. They were, they were involved
Speaker 3: in financing the UH where they were involved in the
Speaker 3: Confederate operations. Ant Myer believe his father was involved in
Speaker 3: financing the Confederacy. So a lot of these weird UH
Speaker 3: Southern influences there than that Westchester TerraMar Park tilled in
Speaker 3: the state situation.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, and I'll just this part I'll make
Speaker 1: really brief. But in the town where I grew up
Speaker 1: in northwest Alabama, there was a group of occultists, and
Speaker 1: I never knew exactly how serious they were because I
Speaker 1: never interacted with him. But they met on the grounds
Speaker 1: of an old, burned out plantation home out in the country.
Speaker 1: The home itself had burned down, but these brick columns
Speaker 1: all around the the porch had survived, and they met
Speaker 1: and did rituals every Friday night. In fact, I was
Speaker 1: invited at one point by years younger than me, But
Speaker 1: this stuff was by when this happened, I was about
Speaker 1: sixteen the first time I heard about it. But she
Speaker 1: said that they used copies of an necronomicon and that
Speaker 1: they would try to conjure demons from this. By the
Speaker 1: mid nineties, they were hanging from the trees out there,
Speaker 1: these little they were like mobiles that you hang over
Speaker 1: a baby's crib, but they had they were made out
Speaker 1: of like pieces of stained glass, and they had a
Speaker 1: cult symbols etched into them, and they were hanging from
Speaker 1: the trees out in the country. And a newspaper photographer
Speaker 1: actually went out there and photographed a couple of them.
Speaker 1: And so I had something even locally like this going on,
Speaker 1: and I knew at least a couple of people who
Speaker 1: were involved to different extents. The girl who invited me
Speaker 1: was sort of a casual participant. There was a guy, yea,
Speaker 1: and the guy was an acid head. He was really
Speaker 1: seriously into it, and he gradually started to have sort
Speaker 1: of a John Carr type breakdown.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1: It has taken root in a lot of places.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's uh, yeah, that's fascinating.
Speaker 3: I actually I encountered a homicidal vampire Colton, Rural, Kentucky
Speaker 3: when I was seventeen, So this stuff does it. It's
Speaker 3: spread long, long and far, even in the Bible Belt
Speaker 3: states like Alabama and uh Murray, Kentucky.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, Hey, Kentucky is it's it's pretty some of
Speaker 1: the remote areas they're pretty creepy. Arkansas to Arkansas is
Speaker 1: another place.
Speaker 2: Arkansas.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you got the West Memphis three situation there. That
Speaker 3: was a good good example that that that, you know,
Speaker 3: some some crowley ism going on there in Arkansas. Huh yeah,
Speaker 3: some eight year old boys. I think that was his
Speaker 3: favorite croleys for magical rituals and whatnot.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think people still, you know, they don't realize
Speaker 1: how perverse this stuff actually was. Anybody who doubts that Crowley,
Speaker 1: I mean, if they think he was just this harmless
Speaker 1: crank or eccentric or whatever, they should read about him
Speaker 1: to see just how disgusting he and his practices really were.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no limits to the debauchery, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: No especially sorry man, No, I didn't go ahead, knock.
Speaker 3: John Jonathan do anymore closing closing thoughts for us before
Speaker 3: we letuh nate and this with some closing thoughts.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I was just going to bring up something real.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to touch on so many different nicles of this.
Speaker 1: It's it's a wide ranging case. But I uh, the
Speaker 1: one thing I think is interesting that I haven't discussed
Speaker 1: very much publicly, although I do devote about a chapter
Speaker 1: it's worth of stuff to it in in the book
Speaker 1: towards the end is the appearance of numerous references to
Speaker 1: the to the Yonkers case in the writing of Peter Stroud,
Speaker 1: the late horror novelist. In fact, I'm rereading one of
Speaker 1: Straub's books right now, and he wrote, uh, CO wrote
Speaker 1: a couple of books with Stephen King, and that's primarily
Speaker 1: what he's known for now.
Speaker 2: It's not a good cred to have these days. I
Speaker 2: don't think that's yeah.
Speaker 1: It's it's really there's been a lot of crap from
Speaker 1: him about the past three years. I just prefer the
Speaker 1: old stuff. But yes, Stroud was Stroud Broke like really intelligent,
Speaker 1: very like overtly literate horror, you know, so that sort
Speaker 1: of fell out of favor after a while. But he
Speaker 1: he wrote a yeah, yeah, he was more. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: he he wrote a novel in nineteen seventy nine called
Speaker 1: ghost Story. It was always one of my favorite books,
Speaker 1: and I would reread it every Halloween or you know,
Speaker 1: sometime around there. But in nineteen ninety six, after I
Speaker 1: had read Morey's book for the first time, I thought, geez,
Speaker 1: a lot of this sounds very similar to some of
Speaker 1: the allegedly fictional details and Ghost Story. So finally, what
Speaker 1: about four years ago? Is just taking a piece of
Speaker 1: paper write down everything I could find in The Ultimate
Speaker 1: Evil that seemed to have a quote unquote fictional correspondence
Speaker 1: in Ghost Story. And there were at least three dozen
Speaker 1: references to the cult, specifically to the Yunker's cult and
Speaker 1: its activities, just in the text of that one book.
Speaker 1: Other yeah, other details appear in other novels, but that's
Speaker 1: the main one.
Speaker 2: That's wild. Yeah, I've never heard of this guy, but
Speaker 2: this is this is You're blowing my mind over here. John.
Speaker 1: It's very it. I mean, I just I jumped out
Speaker 1: of my chair for you. Yeah, I realized that I
Speaker 1: just could not. I mean, I always felt that a
Speaker 1: lot of the novel felt kind of disturbingly real, you know,
Speaker 1: like it was based on real people or events. But
Speaker 1: I just I never knew.
Speaker 2: I just didn't.
Speaker 1: You just don't assume that something like that is the case,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: But by nineteen well, it takes place in Melbourne, huh Milbourne.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is he sets it in upstate New York,
Speaker 1: But it's so once you start to read about it
Speaker 1: that it's just the parallels are just inescapable, you know.
Speaker 1: And he he has made reference at times even to
Speaker 1: the actual names of people involved in this case, even
Speaker 1: to the point of, you know, we had the Maury's
Speaker 1: Flipper list up earlier and we briefly scrolled past the
Speaker 1: name of Ron Spachala, who was involved with the planning
Speaker 1: allegedly of the son of Sam Murders. He was a
Speaker 1: convicted child molester, was dishonorably discharged.
Speaker 2: From the Navy.
Speaker 1: Spachala was in no way, through the midst of any
Speaker 1: of this, a public figure, and his name was not
Speaker 1: publicly known as far as I know. But in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety Peter Stroud names an incidental character in one of
Speaker 1: his novels, Mystery Officers, Spachala. He's a really uniform. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's an oddly specific name to use, you know.
Speaker 1: It's not like Smith or Jones that he turns up
Speaker 1: this name Spachala, which is you find references to the
Speaker 1: case all throughout his work, and it's really fascinating because
Speaker 1: it's Peter Stroub's novels are like a completely separate confirmation
Speaker 1: of Maury's research, because as far as we know, they
Speaker 1: never met, never spoke to each other. They may have,
Speaker 1: but I can't find any indication that they did. So
Speaker 1: the fact that Stroud knew about all this stuff and
Speaker 1: was putting it as fiction in his novels as early
Speaker 1: as the late seventies seems to indicate a whole other
Speaker 1: separate confirmation that the details of Maury's case are accurate.
Speaker 1: So even for the folks that don't enjoy Stroud as
Speaker 1: a storyteller, I would ask him to just sort through
Speaker 1: some of his books and see how many references jump
Speaker 1: off the page at you, because it's really it becomes
Speaker 1: almost alarming after a while, but it's an interesting It's
Speaker 1: interesting to read him either way.
Speaker 2: No, for sure.
Speaker 3: I mean everything you're you're saying to me right now
Speaker 3: is bringing up a lot of different ideas, and so
Speaker 3: I'll definitely share some with the offline. I've tracked some
Speaker 3: processed church activities in around Melbourne, including the epicenter of
Speaker 3: activity with pornography, rock and roll and the mafia.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, I'd love to get more into that.
Speaker 3: No, it's just interesting that would take place, you know,
Speaker 3: because it's not that far. I mean, I mean it's
Speaker 3: essentially just across it's the Hudson River Valley. It's across
Speaker 3: the Hudson River.
Speaker 2: But I mean these two Milbourne and Yonkers are you know,
Speaker 2: geographically in the same region, you know, I mean it's
Speaker 2: sixty six miles.
Speaker 1: Well, he he brings up. It's it's just so it's
Speaker 1: hard to know where to begin. He starts by setting
Speaker 1: the prologue and the epilogue of the novel in Panama City, Florida,
Speaker 1: which is where John Carr was stationed in the late
Speaker 1: sixties and early sex right, and from there the other
Speaker 1: references just pile up, one after another. But it was
Speaker 1: it really grabbed me the first time I realized what
Speaker 1: he was actually talking about it in the story.
Speaker 2: But it's, uh, it makes it fascinating.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fascinating literary analysis you've done there, John, I
Speaker 3: certainly will invite you back you want to discuss at
Speaker 3: any time, Well, thank you. I don't want to move
Speaker 3: past this Pachella Fell because I know he's important. I
Speaker 3: know you've already brought a few of those details. I'm
Speaker 3: scrolling through this list again, I don't see him.
Speaker 2: I can't. I'm sure I'm just missing it. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: can you hit it, because you know, is it a
Speaker 2: weird name?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: He was an interesting character in the cold too there, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: he was.
Speaker 1: He was one of the people that burkele Witz recalled
Speaker 1: was at the planning meeting in April of nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: six to plan out right the son of Sam attacks
Speaker 1: and he berka Witz said, and of course mister real
Speaker 1: Estate was there because it was either his house or
Speaker 1: a property that he owned or was associated with. That
Speaker 1: was probably James Donovan.
Speaker 2: Right, So yeah, Helen which.
Speaker 1: Was there, uh Richie Spurs.
Speaker 2: I think it might be his wife, you know, missus
Speaker 2: real Estate.
Speaker 1: But yeah, she could have had more to do with it,
Speaker 1: because we it's it's really hard to nail down details
Speaker 1: on that particular family. They've they've covered their their tracks
Speaker 1: pretty well.
Speaker 3: And the process of pope they're literal pope as what
Speaker 3: they call it in their their incorporation documents is a female.
Speaker 3: So that was for many years, right, Apparently a number
Speaker 3: of power offshoots, uh you know, power control, a little
Speaker 3: wars amongst the different females in that colt. But it
Speaker 3: does seem to be a female led cult, so I
Speaker 3: tend to think Missus real Estate. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 3: so you're saying that, uh, this Pachella guy was there
Speaker 3: in the mix with the planning at the homes of
Speaker 3: the missus and Missus real mister and Missus real estate.
Speaker 1: Right right there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's not even just it's I mean, it
Speaker 3: is a unique name, but it would be a unique
Speaker 3: character to include if you're making these these this pattern
Speaker 3: of elements from from the Cold into this into this
Speaker 3: science fiction novel, right right, and particularly he would be
Speaker 3: he would we want to focus on.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's it was long before anybody really knew
Speaker 1: the Namespachala, which has really just emerged for our community
Speaker 1: just in the past few years. So sure it's eerie
Speaker 1: that Stroub seems to have already known about some of
Speaker 1: the stuff, you know, even long before more he wrote
Speaker 1: The Ultimate Evil. Strouds seems to have had a pretty
Speaker 1: detailed source who gave him this information and decided to
Speaker 1: disguise it as fiction, and he did. He did it
Speaker 1: very well. He was a brilliant writer. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: was by no means was all of it fiction. A
Speaker 1: lot of what he was writing about was was thinly
Speaker 1: veiled fact.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is all very fascinating to me, because, especially
Speaker 3: in this literary analysis providing this is a common tactic
Speaker 3: amongst intelligence operatives. In fact, many of the men that
Speaker 3: founded the the OSS and the CIA both these weren't men.
Speaker 3: These were men of spycraft. These were men of literature.
Speaker 3: These guys are literary literary majors and writers. In fact,
Speaker 3: a number of them, you know, come to mind. One
Speaker 3: of them that comes to mind, not no assessor CIA guy,
Speaker 3: but the guy who wrote the Armies during World War Two.
Speaker 3: He wrote the Army Technical Manual on Psychological Warfare. He'd
Speaker 3: be like a pre Aquino, be like the pre you know, Cleo,
Speaker 3: a queena before him. You have Lansdale, before Lansdale, you
Speaker 3: have this guy. His name's escaped me, but he was
Speaker 3: a science fiction author and he under the name Cordiner Smith.
Speaker 1: Yes, funnily enough, Straub, this is a detail I forgot,
Speaker 1: but I'm so glad you brought that up in this book,
Speaker 1: mister X.
Speaker 2: The villain's name is.
Speaker 1: Cord Winger so Stroud. He was always dropping a lot
Speaker 1: of breadcrumbs and Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I know the guy that's fantastic. Yes, yeah, because Cordner's
Speaker 2: he was.
Speaker 3: He was an army captain. He was Eleron Hubbard's college roommate.
Speaker 3: Much of the details of ELERONN. Hubbard's biography that he
Speaker 3: uh that he claimed he was uh, he actually stole
Speaker 3: from his college roommates, Paul line Barger. Paul line Barger,
Speaker 3: and he would be a guy you would include in
Speaker 3: the characters in a science fiction novel like that by
Speaker 3: calling him Cordiner referencing him that because this guy, like
Speaker 3: I said, he was, you had a queen o and
Speaker 3: psychological warfare before even made like Lansdale before that had
Speaker 3: Paul ain Barger. So, for example, he would later make
Speaker 3: comments about witnessing the events of the jfk assassination, saying
Speaker 3: that he witnessed his tactics being employed at Deeally Plausa
Speaker 3: that day. What he meant by that is, you know,
Speaker 3: didn't really qualify. But obviously you know he actually you know,
Speaker 3: one of his students would have been E.
Speaker 2: Howard Hunt.
Speaker 3: That'd have been somebody that Paul ain Barger would have
Speaker 3: trained in psychological warfare. So you know, there is a
Speaker 3: lot to be said about these characters, but for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: they embed stuff in sci fi novels. Corbyn or Smith.
Speaker 3: Paul Liinbarger wrote a sci fi novel where if you
Speaker 3: take the first letter of each of each line in
Speaker 3: the first page, it says like Oswald never fired a shot.
Speaker 3: You know, he embeds these messages in the science fiction,
Speaker 3: you know. And that's just that's just one example, but
Speaker 3: there's a lot. There's numerous other examples such as that
Speaker 3: from Anthony Burgess to you know, even even folks like
Speaker 3: not necessarily science fiction, but again os s Cia guys
Speaker 3: Lauren Singer who wrote a film called The Parallax Effects
Speaker 3: durring Warren Batty, which involves mind control team of assassins
Speaker 3: going around murdering folks like President of France, and you
Speaker 3: know it's very you know, very spooky, you know actually,
Speaker 3: but again it's to speak writing it. So there is
Speaker 3: this weird confluence of events with these sci fi novels
Speaker 3: that you bring up some interesting some interesting concepts there. John,
Speaker 3: for sure, you have a wheels turning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate. I'm glad to pass the information along
Speaker 1: because it's, uh, I know, it's a lot for people
Speaker 1: to wrap their heads around that. They think, well, geez,
Speaker 1: would an author of fiction really be involved with that
Speaker 1: sort of stuff? And uh, I know, Yet the book
Speaker 1: is the book is, mister x. It's just a great
Speaker 1: novel on its own terms, Like even if you don't
Speaker 1: you know, research any of the strangeness behind the story,
Speaker 1: but it's this is it's a really great book. I
Speaker 1: recommend all the Stroud stuff. And he kind of the
Speaker 1: final confirmation for me that he was involved in this
Speaker 1: on some level was the fact that he dedicated ghost
Speaker 1: Story to two psychotherapists who were associated with Tavistock. And
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how specific it gets there on the
Speaker 1: dedication he named his daughter after the female psychotherapist. So
Speaker 1: that's that's pretty Oddes.
Speaker 2: That's too on the nose. That's two on the nose,
Speaker 2: John Was it wasn't Eric crist Was it was it
Speaker 2: Eric Trist?
Speaker 1: No? Eric Eric trist is the guy that I regard
Speaker 1: as the great granddaddy of all this horrible stuff that
Speaker 1: we're talking about. You know his Yeah, he came up
Speaker 1: with the social turbulence theory, which is exactly something that
Speaker 1: the process pedaled later, and he proposed it at first
Speaker 1: in the year that the process started as as compulsions
Speaker 1: analysis in nineteen sixty three.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you're spot on target, John.
Speaker 3: And when he left Tavistak, he went over to UCLA
Speaker 3: and worked with Lewis, Jolly and West for a brief,
Speaker 3: brief stint and again and his son Alan is the president.
Speaker 3: And I believe he's so alive. He's the president of
Speaker 3: the Grateful Dead's. He's a publishing company because he was
Speaker 3: best friends with Jerry Garcia.
Speaker 2: Oh Man.
Speaker 1: Well, like you said, it's so all in the nose,
Speaker 1: it's almost painful, you know.
Speaker 2: It is painful.
Speaker 3: It's very painful when this is dedicating a sci fi novel,
Speaker 3: The Davis Thug. It's crazy now, John, I I I
Speaker 3: appreciate these. I mean you you just dropped some so
Speaker 3: again you got my wheels turning here. I appreciate your
Speaker 3: the time you spend here sharing all this information with
Speaker 3: us tonight. And I definitely, you know, invite you back
Speaker 3: here anytime. And Nate, I apologize for interruption there. I
Speaker 3: know you got some closing thoughts and turn it back
Speaker 3: over here to you to appreciate you joining us here
Speaker 3: tonight too, filling in as a co host here for
Speaker 3: Nick Nick's absence, and uh definitely, uh, welcome back anytime
Speaker 3: for future fridays here in Nate anytime.
Speaker 2: But yeah, what uh what are your what are your thoughts?
Speaker 3: You got some closing some closing, some parting statements and
Speaker 3: thoughts for us here you're on mute.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say, I actually don't have any closing thoughts.
Speaker 4: I don't remember what I was gonna say, but it
Speaker 4: was it was something question about David Berkowoit's any ways,
Speaker 4: But thank you. I appreciate you having me on, brother,
Speaker 4: I would I love coming on here. I love Nick,
Speaker 4: So I hope Nick feels better, Jonathan. This was fantastic, man,
Speaker 4: This super interesting. Uh there's so much to dig into here,
Speaker 4: and uh yeah, I mean you are kind of speaking
Speaker 4: my language with all these different connections here, with these
Speaker 4: cults and the CIA, the MK ultra and all like
Speaker 4: honestly like the entire like hippie movement in general, in
Speaker 4: a lot of this music scene, all of this is
Speaker 4: so tied together, and so like, I appreciate you making
Speaker 4: some of these connections and just getting feeding people's interest
Speaker 4: in this because I think there's way more to dig
Speaker 4: into here. And uh yeah, David Burkowitz was a weird basically.
Speaker 4: Like the way I see it at this point is
Speaker 4: David burke Witz was kind of a fall guy. He
Speaker 4: was a scapegoat. Uh, and they just kind of let
Speaker 4: him like eat up all of those different those murders.
Speaker 4: And maybe he was guilty for some of them, and
Speaker 4: it doesn't seem like he was guilty for all of them.
Speaker 4: And I think, uh, it is interesting that they allow
Speaker 4: somebody to kind of get famous he's a famous serial killer.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: And maybe they just a lot of times, you know,
Speaker 4: some of these secret societies and different things like that.
Speaker 4: I think they it's kind of like saying, Kobe, you know,
Speaker 4: before you throw a piece of paper in the trash can.
Speaker 4: I think they like to put their signs and symbols
Speaker 4: on different things, but they quietly, they quietly do it.
Speaker 4: So they so they kind of take credit for things,
Speaker 4: but not really and they let people like David Burkewood's
Speaker 4: kind of eat the time as it would be.
Speaker 1: You know, absolutely, I agree.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good it's an accurate analysis. I agree
Speaker 2: to their name.
Speaker 3: I have I have a party question for you their
Speaker 3: Night in regards to your father's connections with Charles Manson.
Speaker 3: You mentioned he ran around with the you know, since
Speaker 3: he's Mexican fell he ran around his native Mexican crowd
Speaker 3: there in the Los Angeles region. So did he know
Speaker 3: Danny actor Danny Trejo.
Speaker 4: I don't actually know that. That's a great question. I
Speaker 4: wish you did. Charles Manson, I should probably reach out
Speaker 4: to any trio at some point. That would be fun.
Speaker 4: I would love to have on the show.
Speaker 2: Well, they're both Mexican fellows in Los Angeles. Who knew
Speaker 2: Charles Manson? I mean, what are the odds?
Speaker 3: I mean, they're running in the same circles, right, I
Speaker 3: mean maybe, yeah, no doubt. Danny Treo, dude, I appreciate
Speaker 3: you gence time, and I hope it looks like as
Speaker 3: for the chattel Off folks of.
Speaker 2: The interwebs here enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 3: Like I said, anytime, y'all want to come back, John
Speaker 3: to look forward to this litterary analysis of your sci
Speaker 3: fi work and your future son of sam research. Like
Speaker 3: I said, send you a few notes offline regarding some
Speaker 3: of the stuff we talked about. And yeah, welcome back anytime, Nate,
Speaker 3: Welcome back any time, Sir. I appreciate your time, and uh,
Speaker 3: that's it. We'll call the end of the show here.
Speaker 1: Thanks, look, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Sure, well that's it.
Speaker 1: That's the show here, folks.
Speaker 5: So the next time you're right on the town, visit
Speaker 5: in your local watering holes or perhaps just meandering around,
Speaker 5: and you hear the unmistakable sounds of metal clanking and
Speaker 5: you spot signs of a disturbance, but check your six
Speaker 5: look in that garbage can, because you never can tell
Speaker 5: the GCDs may be loose in your town.
Speaker 2: Then you table to atpat in a patting